To think the law should be able to do more about this dog??

(305 Posts)
curiousgeorgie Sun 21-Apr-13 21:35:30

Walking in the park today with my DH, 2.5 year old DD & dog, and DD walking in front of us (a very late walker, so very slow and can't run yet), suddenly a mastiff (we think) runs from the trees straight to DD and before we can get there literally steps away, my dog is between them.

It was so so quick but this dog was going for my child, and subsequently absolutely savaged my dog, I grabbed DD, was screaming for the owner and DH was trying to separate this dog from our dog (who is a small friendly breed and was pinned down, yelping, it was awful.)

The owners appeared and pulled the dog off after a few horrible minutes, and argued with us that the dog wasn't dangerous, and the woman got completely in my face and threatened me (while 30 weeks pregnant holding my sobbing DD) so we quickly left.

I called the local police from the car and was told there wasn't anything they can do about the dog as it didn't attack a human. (thank god though.)

But the fact remains, that a dangerous dog is allowed to remain in the park on a sunny weekend day where surely there'll be lots of children??

I'm so so angry and upset about this, my DD is really not herself and my poor dog left with bite injuries to his mouth, ears, face and neck.

Just because this dog didn't quite manage to bite my DD nothing can be done?? AIBU?

Uppermid Sun 21-Apr-13 21:41:35

I would call the police again and explain that the only reason it didn't attack a child was that your dog protected her.

Hope your dog is ok

MousyMouse Sun 21-Apr-13 21:42:23

yanbu
imo all dogs should be on the lead at all times in public places
hope you and your dd and dog are ok. what a shock.

Softlysoftly Sun 21-Apr-13 21:45:54

God that's awful, name the park so others can be wary?

It is a ridiculous rule, there was a man in our paper today bitten badly by a loose border collie (2 operations since) and yet the police say no law was broken so no action to take? !

There should be a blanket law any dog biting human or animal goes in due assessment and the owners too.

curiousgeorgie Sun 21-Apr-13 21:46:55

I did say that to the police, but they said the dog still technically didn't bite anyone. They were lovely but I'm just shocked there's nothing they can do.

Booboostoo Sun 21-Apr-13 22:18:01

Talk to your dog warden who is better equiped to deal with aggressive dogs.

It sounds like a very scary experience for all of you and I am very sorry for your dog. I hope he is not too badly injured and I think you can also try to recover vets' fees from the other dog's owner if you can identify them. Having said that, are you sure the other dog was running to attack your DD? That would be quite unusual and exceptionally aggressive behaviour. I am not saying it's impossible but are you sure you read the signs right?

CaffeDoppio Sun 21-Apr-13 22:23:27

I don't know where you are OP but almost the exact same thing happened to us a couple of weeks ago in our large downland park. It was 2 mastiffs running wild both of which got our dog and pinned him down and it was only lucky that the owner came strolling along without a care in the world before it got really nasty. DH got into a terrible argument with him and came straight home and called the Police. They were way more interested in that incident than when we had to report our car windows vandalised just a few days before that and have since been back twice to take statements and ask DH if he would be able to identify dogs/owner. I've been quite surprised by their level of interest.
Perhaps you could go down the Dog Warden route but I'd be tempted to try again with the Police tbh

MyDarlingClementine Sun 21-Apr-13 22:27:51

I really feel for you. Now I am a dog owner myself I am more than ever aware of the dangerous lunging dogs out there and there are many of them.
The very least the police could do would be to at least check on the breed of the dog.

LST Sun 21-Apr-13 22:38:28

it was a good jobs ops dog wasn't on a lead though really mousey?

op I hope you all and your ddog are ok x

jellybeans Mon 22-Apr-13 00:12:33

That's horrible sad Much more needs to be done. These vicious dogs should not be allowed. There is a park local to me where I gave up going due to selfish owners letting vicious dogs off leads to charge at people. I reported two large vicious dogs who charged out their house onto the street and circled us and scared us. We were there terrified while they barked and growled at us for several minutes. DC were so scared. The owner came out eventually and called them off. I had a word with a neighbour whom I knew and he had had the same problem with the dogs. I called the police as why should I be scared to walk my DC to school...They were interested and came out to have a word with the owners. Haven't had a problem since but am still nervous to walk past the house. Not surprisingly the family are the 'problem' type and aggressive. If I see a huge dog on a lead with responsible owner it is totally different. More should be done.

Bugsylugs Mon 22-Apr-13 00:27:00

Op so sorry to hear what you have been through. Has your dog been checked out by a vet? As I am sure you know dog bites can be grim and antibiotics needed. Also good for letter to police.

TheChaoGoesMu Mon 22-Apr-13 00:28:59

Can you make a complaint to the police in writing?

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 00:40:56

The dog did not attack a human. It defended itself against an attack by your dog!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 00:42:18

Why not take your child somewhere where dogs are not running free?

TheChaoGoesMu Mon 22-Apr-13 00:57:10

Erm, am I missing something here? The ops dog didn't attack the other dog hmm. And why should the op take her children somewhere else? Its a park. If your dog is likely to attack other dogs or people then it should be on a lead.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 01:17:48

I think you are missing something - re read the op.
Why would you take a toddler out where dogs were running free???
Would you go out and play on a motorway and complain that the cars were not looking out for you??

MammaTJ Mon 22-Apr-13 01:21:42

Um, they were in a park, a place where children should be able to run free.

The OP is not the one in the wrong here.

OP I am so glad your dog saved the day.

Twinklestarstwinklestars Mon 22-Apr-13 01:29:31

My son got bitten by a dog at the park outside my house, because the only witnesses were kids they wouldn't do anything even though she admitted it was her dog. She was told to keep it on a lead but doesn't if she knows I'm not watching.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 01:33:11

Ummm they were in a park where dogs are running free! Where is their sense of responsibility toward their child! There are lots of places you can take children without exposing them to dogs (or any other animal) running free!
If you are walking a dog that is protective toward it's owner (ie unsocialised) it is also irresponsible to the dogs to take it where other dogs run free!

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 01:35:01

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YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 01:38:28

These dogs bit no one! They ran toward these people. We only have the op's idea that they were going for the child. They were not described as snarling or showing any aggression until their dog went for it!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 01:40:36

Softly, I am insulted. If you think I am a troll, please report!
I am sorry I consider childrens safety more important than their parents desire to own the park!

MissFredi Mon 22-Apr-13 01:45:04

YANBU at all!!!!!

We need much tighter regulations on ALL dog breeds (bitten by a westie once - sharp little buggers) because at the end of the day, if a person raises a puppy of any breed to be a monster, the dog will know no better whereas the owner really should and the dog will be destroyed. The owner will then just get another dog after the ban has finished and the cycle will start again. And these breeds can be raised nicely, and it has lovely results when people aren't trying to look "hard" by having a viscous dog.

Personally I'm amazed you didn't deck the owner, you're a better person than I am!

MissFredi Mon 22-Apr-13 01:46:28

Also hope you and family and little dog are all okay now thanks

biscuit<<<biscuit for the dog

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 01:47:07

The children's safety would be served by keeping dogs that will run at children whatever their intention on a fucking lead. Even a non aggressive bouncy dog can cause damage to such a small child. And let's be realistic the owners dont sound exactly reasonable so I doubt they train their hellhound dog.

I'm guessing you have a large uncontrolled dog that's just an ickle softy who wants to play? Forgive me for making offensive assumptions but in for a penny. ......

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 01:50:43

Take your child somewhere where there are no dogs running free. There are plenty of safe places to go! No need to place your child (or your unsocialised dog) at risk of reacting to dogs enjoying a run.
If we were all tolerant of each others needs the world would be a safer place!

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 01:56:15

That would be a yes then.

YNK if dog wonders were responsible and kept their dogs on leads, then the world would bre a safer place.
Where the hell do you think children should play?

Owners not wonders (bloody autocorrect)

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:00:22

What a strange post. Where do you think children should be???

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 02:00:57

YNK- Where does it say that the OP's dog went for the other dog? That isn't what I read at all?! I read that her dog was savaged, not the other way around?!

So what you are saying is that parents shouldn't talk their children to the park, because dog owners have the perogative to let their unruly dogs run wherever they like? So parents aren't allowed to 'own' the park, but dog owners are?! I thought that the park was for everyone?I don't think anyone is actually trying to 'own' it.

OP, your dog sounds like a lovely, loyal animal and I really hope that he and your DD are okay.

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 02:01:26

YNK- Where does it say that the OP's dog went for the other dog? That isn't what I read at all?! I read that her dog was savaged, not the other way around?!

So what you are saying is that parents shouldn't talk their children to the park, because dog owners have the perogative to let their unruly dogs run wherever they like? So parents aren't allowed to 'own' the park, but dog owners are?! I thought that the park was for everyone?I don't think anyone is actually trying to 'own' it.

OP, your dog sounds like a lovely, loyal animal and I really hope that he and your DD are okay.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:02:30

They should play in the places where dogs do not run free! Would you insist they play on a busy road?
No?
Then why put them in the way of free range dogs?
It's crazy, territorial and irresponsible to use your child to make a point!

And where exactly are these places where dog don't run free?

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:06:42

Dogs are a pretty good judge of canine intent. This 'small, friendly breed' felt it needed to put itself between the child and the other dog. And was bitten, pinned and had to have the other dog dragged of it as a result. Then the owner was aggressive, threatening the OP. Which is more likely to be the ill trained dog?

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:06:47

Re read the op, Doodle! Her dog was the aggressor. I am sorry it came off worse, but it should not have been anywhere where it felt the need to defend it's owner. If it is so defensive it should not have been placed in that position! The owner was risking the safety of her dog and child! There are lots of safe places to go without the need to do this!!!

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:07:09

Are you American?

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:09:06

There are very few parks and places where dogs can run free. Usually identified by 'please keep your dog on a leash' signs!

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:09:58

If you are, I think you might be confused. In the UK we don't really have 'dog parks'. We have parks that are used by everyone.

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 02:10:38

Roads are specifically for CARS! Of course you wouldn't let children play on a road!! Parks however, aren't just for dogs! If the OP had let her child run wild in a dog pound then you may have a point, but she didn't, so you don't.

How have you come to the assumption that her dog is unsocialised?! And even if it is (which I fail to see you can assume from her OP), HER dog was minding its own business until the other dog came over.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:11:51

Yup, dogs are a good judge of canine intent. A dog was attacked and defended itself. It's owner sounds like she was aggressive toward the bigger dog too!

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:13:32

Again, if you aren't aware, dogs are allowed to be off lead in the UK. Parks are not 'dog parks.'

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 02:15:39

I have re-read and re-read the original post....Her dog was absolutely not the aggressor. The aggressive dog came out of nowhere and looked to attack the child, so the OP's dog stood between the child and the other dog...if this is considered to be aggressive behaviour then i'm clearly an awful lot more aggressive than I realised! I never realised that standing could be considered aggressive.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:17:53

Yes 'the dog came over'. It had no aggressive intent that I can see from the op until it was attacked.
I bet the bigger dog is in that park every day, 365 days of the year,hail rain or shine.
I wonder how often the op takes her dog out to socialise with other dogs there?
Probably once in a blue moon when the sun shines, and then she also takes her child to toddle where the wee dog could get upset by another curious dog.
Crazy irresponsible parenting (and dog ownership).

YNK you have not read the OP.

Correctly, the OP's dog was defending the child.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:19:10

The dog did not go for the child. No human was attacked!

hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman Mon 22-Apr-13 02:20:10

YNK You're not the owner of the mastiff are you because you hold some pretty strange opinions of the rights and wrongs in this case.

Only because the OP s dog. Put itself in. Front of the child.

Apologies for full stops,, iPad has a mind. Of its own tonight

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:21:02

I don't think you're actually reading the OP or other posts. This is a park. Not a dog park, a park. In the UK. Where dogs can be off lead pretty much anywhere as long as they're not worrying livestock. Like walking along the pavement, or in a public park. Where people take their children to play.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:21:30

I have read and re read the op. The dog ran up to them nothing more!

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 02:23:12

But it wasn't attacked?! Where does it say that her dog attacked the bigger one? Or indeed that the OP was aggressive towards the other owner?

I give up, you clearly haven't actually read the original post. Either that or you are trying to wind people up.

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:23:19

You've berated the OP for having her child in a park. A park that will probably have swings etc for children.

You've said there are very few places to let dogs off lead. Not true in the UK.

hmm No matter how many times I read the Op it still says the same .
Large dog which was coming across very vicious ran towards a child at which point Ops dog got in between Ops Dd & defended her .
Thank god for your dig protecting your Dd & I hope his injuries aren't to severe .
Also parks are intended for people not dogs to crap where ever they want & run round scaring the crap out of everybody !

hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman Mon 22-Apr-13 02:28:49

Dogs shouldn't be running up to random people when off lead, they should remain under the firm control of their owner at all times. The owner of the mastiff is responsible for what happened not the OP or her child.

I feel your opinions are very odd YNK, you refuse to answer the question of where children should play and are just harping on about how they shouldn't be in parks of all things.

Dogs should be kept on leads unless their recall is spot on and no dog should ever be allowed to run up to a child like that.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:34:15

Every owner I know picks up after their dog. Most parks where I live have childrens play areas fenced off for safety!
Open areas where dogs need to be restrained will have a sign (contact your local council for confirmation).
Yes parks are intended for people and will be used all year round by dog owners.
Running dogs are not scary. They are being exuberant! If the dog was going to attack the child it would not have been distracted by a smaller dog!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:36:01

I find it very odd that people who only go to the park on sunny days are surprised that dogs will be around!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:38:35

I don't mind children being in the park if they are happy to say hello to my dog. I do not expect people to bring a defensive unsocialised dog with them to fight in front of a child!
I also take my grandson into the park and he loves to see the dogs running around!

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:40:01

Socialised dogs don't run straight at small children.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:40:39

I have said repeatedly that there are lots of places for children to play!

Who In. the hell says the people in question only go to t he park on sun n y days?
I have a GSD and the sight of her running full. Tilt would be. Scary to someone who didnt know her.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:42:11

Why should they not run up to children? Lot's of dogs get good attention from children and my experience is that they are both richer for it!

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 02:43:07

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:44:15

Socialised dogs don't anticipate attack as the first line of defence! They will circle and sniff to see if another dog wants to play. If the other dog attacks they will defend themselves!

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:44:35

Not up to, at. Dogs that are socialised and under control don't run straight at small children.

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:47:33

It's incredibly common for a dog that has small children in the family to be vigilant and 'mind' them. They appoint themselves as protectors. It's something anyone who has been around dogs would know.

WHY? Why should you NOT let a large dog run up to a 2yo?

For the love of fuck.

It's like trying to explain something to dougal from father ted.

I'm off to bed.

OP=YANBU

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:48:11

I've run out of benefit of the doubt.

pickledginger Mon 22-Apr-13 02:48:31

Small. Far away.

Exactly pickled smile goodnight.

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 02:53:02

The little dog didn't attack!!!!!! Where does it say that it did?!!!

As a parent, I think that I not only speak for myself when I say that I would very much NOT want any dog running up to my child, and I say that as the owner of a very big, very well behaved and socialised dog, who quite happily runs off lead in the park and does not approach young children or other dogs unless the parents/owners engage him first and we tell him it is okay. That is sensible.

hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman Mon 22-Apr-13 02:53:30

Why should they not run up to children?

Seriously? Because it can be quite scary to have a random dog run up to you as an adult let alone as a small child.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:54:32

Exactly my point pickled - it should not have been exposed to dogs running free in those circumstances!
Dogs who love small children will run straight at them/up to them, with no evil intent!
There are plenty of safe places the op could take her toddler. Why on earth would they choose somewhere they were going to demand others change their behavior to suit them? Particularly if they are going to misinterpret their intentions?
It simply does not make sense!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 02:56:50

If you feel that way do not expose your toddler/small defensive dog to that situation.
Simple!
Everyone would be happy all round!

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 02:57:26

No- YOU don't make sodding sense!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 03:01:58

I think I do Doodle! I can see it clearly from both sides!
The op said their dog attacked first! Why put your child?small defensive dog in that position.
Unnecessary and stupid!
There are lots of places they could have gone to, why choose somewhere dogs were running free???
Why.....just to make a point? Crazy!

MammaTJ Mon 22-Apr-13 03:04:13

Where are these places you can take children that do not have dogs in them?

You have been asked that before and declined to answer YNK. Do tell me please. I took my children to the park today, also my dog. She does not like terriers. There were two terriers in the park, so I kept her on the lead. That way, I could totally control the situation. I could not have controlled other peoples dogs though.

Where could I have taken my children other than a park?

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 03:08:53

I have answered that repeatedly MammaTJ. There are lots of parks where there are signs saying 'dogs to be kept on leash at all times'!
In the park I use, half of it is given to fenced in play areas! The rest is woodland with a path through!
I also use an area where there are signs saying 'no ball games'!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 03:15:11

I am happy to take my toddler grandson with me, but he loves dogs too and usually the dogs are too busy chasing each other and playing to be bothered with people anyway!
We also meet people who are delighted to see dogs and make a fuss of them!
It is so nice to see humans and dogs interacting well. IMHO this is the norm, it is only when someone passes through expecting their rights to be upheld at the expense of others that there is any problem!
To use your child and aggressive small dog to make a point is crazy!

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 03:18:11

No, you don't make any sense because you clearly haven't read the OP. The little dog didn't attack first. If you had read the OP then you would know that. You clearly can't see it from the OP's side at all. She did not say that her dog attacked first, or that her dog even retaliated when the big dog attacked it. She never said that she only goes to the park on sunny days. And she never said she was doing anything to 'prove a point.' You appear to be making things up!

I am another person who would like to know where in the UK you can take a child where there aren't dogs running free? I have seen play areas within parks where dogs aren't allowed...but you have to get the child through the park first to get to those places. How would you suggest someone does this exactly? Hold the child above their head and make a run for it?

MammaTJ Mon 22-Apr-13 03:19:55

I do not think for on moment the OP was using her dog and child to make a point. They were walking in a park, which many people do.

In the park I went to earlier, there is a fenced off play area, where dogs are not allowed. You have to walk through the larger part of the park to get to it though. Were my children meant to fly? Or maybe the dog owners should be trusted to either have their dogs trained not to go running up to small (ish) children in a manner which could be viewed as threatening, or kept on a lead if they cannot be relied upon not to do this.

My own dog can be trusted around children but not around terriers or balls. So, she was kept on her lead.

hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman Mon 22-Apr-13 03:21:23

Is it a full moon or summat?

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 03:21:44

I also think that interaction between friendly dogs amd humans is nice WHEN IT IS SAFE AND WANTED. This was not safe, the big dog was out of control and injured the small dog which could very easily have been the small child.

You absolutely do not have a point.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 03:25:55

The intention of the bigger dog is unknown. All we know is that it ran at/ up to the people and the small dog, whereupon the small dog went on the defense and attacked.
People here are saying this was a good thing? FFS!

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 03:27:12

Please tell me where the OP says that the small dog attacked? I've asked a few times now. Can't seem to find it myself...

MammaTJ Mon 22-Apr-13 03:30:25

It ran up to a small child in a way that the smaller dog viewed as threatening. You said yourself dogs are a good judge of canine intent, the smaller dog judged the larger dogs intent to be attcking the child, which he then defended against.

Even if it was bounding up to the child with friendly intent it could still have hurt the child by being too boisterous.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 03:48:17

The smaller dog attacked - 'got in between the dog and the people' It was being defensive and the bigger dog would have reacted too!
BTW I do keep my small terrier on a retractable lead as he can be unpredictable. My other dog is a total nutcase who loves a run and her recall is perfect.
I have seen great happy dogs be very curious about small children because they are so rarely in the park. It is not unusual to hear parents shouting at dog owners to keep them on a leash. I don't know why on earth they think they take priority when these dogs are in the park every day with other dog owners and children without any problems.
It's always the rare visitors who are parents of younger children who do this. They can be very aggressive to other park users and I have checked with my local authority that all park users have rights.
If a dog attacks then something can and will be done about it. I have never seen an aggressive dog off leash in the park I use!
I have been talking to other dog owners recently and we have been taking bets on how soon an aggressive entitled parent will turn up shouting!

hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman Mon 22-Apr-13 04:05:16

I'm off for a lay down in a darkened room because this thread has taken a very strange turn.

Jengnr Mon 22-Apr-13 04:08:37

YNK is clearly insane.

There s no other explanation for such batshit comments!

monsterchild Mon 22-Apr-13 04:22:51

TMI. If your boisterous dog comes up to and messes with my toddler you can be sure I'll beat the ever living shit out of our dog. I don't care if its a dog friendly park, if you dog approaches my kid without an invitation is a bad dog and will be treated as a threat.

I don't think you realize that many dog owners are not responsible people. Testing dogs like children isn't a safe way to keep a dog. And you really seem to believe that a dog has more rights that a child, which is not true.

jchocchip Mon 22-Apr-13 04:25:29

I agree YNK is on another planet thinking it ok for dogs to run up to small children. It can put them off dogs for life. If dogs run at children they should not be off lead in the park near children. In our park there are plenty of places for dogs to run free away from the play areas.

monsterchild Mon 22-Apr-13 04:39:34

That should be YNK, and your dog. Dang autocorrect!

MrRected Mon 22-Apr-13 05:03:42

YNK - you are a nutter! How does the dog ending up between the humans and the much larger dog, constitute an attack????

As for avoiding parks because dogs are wandering off leash (illegally). Really? You are just trying to wind people up!!!!!

MrsDarylDixon Mon 22-Apr-13 05:48:13

Blimey YNK, were you the other owner in the OP? If not, I'm really struggling to understand why you're being such a twonk.

People shouldn't take their kids to the park?! Honestly?!

But you've got a right to be there cos you go more often? Yeah, that's how PUBLIC spaces work.

And I find it very hard to believe that all dog owners that you know pick up after their dog. There's no dog shit in your park at all? Sounds almost too good to be true...

YNK, attitudes like yours is the reason people with small children think that dog owners are irresponsible and dangerous FFS.

no dog, big or small should go running up to anyone uninvited.
You sound like one of those owners who's dogs come running up to my NewDog and totally ignore me when I ask them to move the dog because he is nervous.
The response is "oh he is ok, he just wants to play"

Your dog should not be running up to people uninvited. It doesn't matter how often you are in the park, how often other people use the park. Just because you like to see your dog running up and saying hello, that does not mean everyone agrees.
People see a strange dog running up to their small child, with no responsible owner calling the dog back and quite honestly they panic. I'm not surprised. Surely you can think it's ok?

Some people have been bitten badly by dogs, some people are scared of dogs, it doesn't mean they cannot use the park.

But everyone has to be respectful to the other park users.
And if you cannot see that a dog running up to anyone and everyone uninvited is the wrong thing, then you are the irresponsible one IMHO

rainbowslollipops Mon 22-Apr-13 06:36:48

I don't quite know what else to suggest that hasn't been suggested already. Ask your vet possibly? I hope you're all ok especially dd & dog. Well done to your dog for protecting dd.

It's just lucky you had your dog with you, or things could have been much worse. Your dog has basically saved your child's life.
The owners of the vicious dog should be ashamed! Cant believe they have got away with taking a dangerous dog to a place where kids play!

Hope your dog is ok op?

BeebiesQueen Mon 22-Apr-13 06:58:33

After being attacked by a dog when I was little, I'm terrified of dogs )although gettin better with the smaller ones).

I'd love to know where these parks are that dogs must be kept on leads or are not allowed, because I'm yet to find any! Dogs don't have to be on a lead in the uk, unless there is livestock around. That's a fact. Any park is both for dogs, children, adult and well anyone who wants to use it.

Op yanbu some dogs are lovely, others are not. I personally think there should be more lead laws, but that's largely down to my expo earpieces and fears

WynkenBlynkenandNod Mon 22-Apr-13 06:59:20

When you have a dog you generally know from a dogs approach whether it is going to friendly or not. There's a big difference between a dog that comes charging over, tail wagging to play and a dog running at full pelt to attack. My dog was attacked by a Jack Russel recently and it was totally obvious what was goings happen whilst the dog was enroute and I've seen many many dogs approach mine to play. The body language of the JR left me in absolutely no doubt as to what was about to happen. My dog is well socialised, knows when to back off from other dogs and has never had a problem before. She did just enough to defend herself and no more.

The OP felt that her child was at thread from the approaching dog. I'm sure as a dog owner she's seen enough dogs to know when one is approaching to play or for other intent. Their dog interpreted the other dogs approach as hostile, placed itself in front of the child to prevent any harm coming to it. Yes you can't say if a dog attacks another dog then it would definitely attack a human but in this situation the OP felt that was it's intent. If their dog hadn't been there we would have found out the other dogs intention. I for one am very relieved we don't know what woukd have happened if their dog hadn't been there.

A well socialised dog should not be allowed to approach children off lead YNK, it should be called back to you and only allowed to approach once you have established the child and parent are happy to fo do. It absolutely under no circumstances should be allowed to approach unless you have established this and in the UK under the Dangerous Dog Act there's a bit about a dog being perceived as a threat, it doesn't have to have caused harm, only that it's behaviour is perceived as a threat. This was drummed into us at dog training classes. Others more knowledgable than me can clarify that bit.

Plenty of dog owners take their children on dog walks and everything is fine whilst the dogs hurtle around and play with each other. The biggest danger to the child is ususally being knocked over by over exuberant dogs which easily managed. I just can't see what the OP did wrong on any level and I'm sorry for what her family went through.

Our usual park has a fenced off area with swings & a much larger area that has to be walked through to get to the fenced off bit. Kids play football etc on this bit & dogs run free. My dog is excitable but does not approach small children - if he did I would run up & put him back on the lead.

My dog has been randomly attacked and pinned to the ground twice (and he's not a small dog) in both cases the other dog came charging across to go for him. It was perfectly obvious what was going to happen before it happened in both cases. One particular dog I avoid now as I have seen it pin so many dogs down & the owner is useless. Apparently it's the fault of all the other dogs hmm The other owner is good and because we know her dog doesn't like mine we keep to opposite ends of the large park (it's not my usual walking spot anyway)

Bloody hell, YNK - if you're meant to be what passes for a normal dog owner, you're a great argument for banning dogs from any public area.

I normally don't mind dogs and I've been known to tell random people in the street that their dog is lovely but: 1) do not let your smelly mutt run up to me in a public space. I am wearing a nice coat and if it gets dirty because of your animal bouncing on me I will be beyond furious 2) do NOT let your mutt come near my PFB because I am with Monsterchild on that one 3) Your beast does not have the right to go near anyone and if it does like to bother people, keep it on a lead at all times 4) Parks are for humans. Dogs are allowed but that is a privilege that can be withdrawn and probably will be if many owners act like you - thankfully they don't.

Back to the OP, absolutely YANBU and I hope you're feeling better.

everlong Mon 22-Apr-13 07:30:09

YNK you are talking bollocks.

The only person in the wrong in this whole situation was the mastiff owner.

The dog should have been on a lead. The owner should have apologised profusely.

OP hope you're all ok this morning.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 08:56:25

YNK, my dog is not unsocialised. As I said to the police, I go to that park every weekend and a few mornings in the week, my dog has been to dog training school and his only interest at the park is sniffing the ground and chasing a tennis ball. He is not aggressive and if he gets close to other people, we call him and he comes back. If your dog cannot do this, then it should be on a lead.
If your dog not only cannot be recalled, but is also a large, aggressive dog, then you shouldn't be letting it roam free, and you certainly shouldn't be letting it roam free out of your view as this dog was.
My DD isn't shy of dogs, she loves them, she points out every 'doggy' from the car window and as people have done to us before, sometimes we ask owners if she's okay to stroke dogs we meet on walks.
I find you extremely insulting. I'm a responsible parent and a responsible dog owner.
I wouldn't be surprised if you, however, were not.

DD is fine and much happier today. My dog isn't really himself and has a hot nose so I'm going to take him to the vet at lunchtime.

I was supposed to be meeting some friends in the park ( even though its not a sunny day!!) but I think I'm going to find a new one...

I'm just seething today. I'm doing that thing where you think of all the things you should have said and done but didn't... Holding a 2 year old and 30 weeks pregnant isn't really helpful to being able to stand up for yourself, but it just makes my blood boil that they've got away with it, and next time a small child might not be so lucky.

Twattybollocks Mon 22-Apr-13 09:03:47

I think this may well have been a case of mistaken intentions. The big dog comes bounding up, probably curious about dog/child. Small dog (possibly socialised, possibly not) gets intimidated by large dog, or even small dogs owners are intimidated by large dog and small dog picks up on this and becomes defensive. Situation escalates. large dog owners probably shocked by the escalation become defensive, small dogs owners are likewise shocked and scared, worried about their dog. Shouting/aggression from dog owners ensues.
One thing I can say is that if a dog the size of a mastiff decided run over and make an attack on a small dog, there would be life threatening injuries to the small dog. It's unlikely that the dog intended to attack the people/child as otherwise it would have ignored the small dog and carried right on attacking. Dog-dog agression and dog-human agression are not the same thing, and one does not usually lead to the other.
I have a perceived dangerous breed dog (staff), if she was off lead and saw kids she would 100% become suddenly deaf to all recall attempts and go over to play. She loves kids, she can't help herself. I understand that not everyone wants 20kg of over excitable staffie trying to stick her tongue in their ear, so I keep her on a lead. At all times when out in a park. Yes it's a shame for the dog, but if I let her off lead and she did run over to someone then because of her breed I wouldn't be able to guarantee that the people would not make a complaint to the dog warden and we would potentially be in very hot water.
I think the large dogs owner should realise that other people do not know their dog, or trust its behaviour, and if it can't be recalled from other people or dogs 100% reliably it should be on a lead. Since we don't live in an ideal world, the owners of the small dog should also learn what to do when a large intimidating dog approaches to avoid being attacked. No, they shouldn't have to, but it's wise to be prepared.

Tailtwister Mon 22-Apr-13 09:04:19

These out of control dogs are becoming a huge problem. It sounds OTT to suggest that all dogs should be kept on a lead, but unfortunately it's starting to come to that. The few out of control dogs are tarnishing the reputation of the rest. As a parent, I can't tell which dogs are likely to go for my child and which aren't. In areas where children are playing, I really do think all dogs need to be kept on a lead.

Hope your dog is ok OP.

Tailtwister Mon 22-Apr-13 09:06:30

Great post Twatty. I completely agree.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 09:10:17

I didn't mistake the intention!

And this dog continued to bite my dog for a few minutes while the owner and my DH tried to pull it off! It was absolutely awful, and your suggestion that my dog 'may not be socialised' is not even relevant, though I can assure you he is!

He didn't aggressively run up to anyone.
He didn't scare anyone.
He was with his responsible owners and was behaving impeccably as always.
I've seen enough dogs and had enough dogs to know this ones vicious intent.
My dog put himself between this dog and my DD in the fraction of a second it took for us to react. I have no doubt that this dog would've hurt my DD.

34DD Mon 22-Apr-13 09:14:40

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 09:17:50

But this dog wasn't on a lead... Mine wasn't, but then mine didn't aggressively run up to anyone did he?

fuzzypicklehead Mon 22-Apr-13 09:38:21

Dear God, I hmm so hard, I may have pulled a muscle.

OP--YANBU If a dog has poor recall, it should be on a lead. Even a dog with great recall should never be out of the owner's sightline. "Just being friendly" doesn't count for beans. A friendly dog can still knock over a child in it's enthusiasm.

I wouldn't say that all dogs should be on leads at all times... but I do believe all dogs should be under their owner's control at all times, whether on lead or off.

LessMissAbs Mon 22-Apr-13 09:39:44

YNK - you sound as if you have become too empathetic towards canines, and can't really distinguish the social pecking order of life any more. Just as this thread shows that the law gives priority to humans, so does "parklife".

I have horses, and as a horse owner, much of my pleasure is gained from training horses and riding them in an environment shared with other public space users. I often get chased by out of control dogs which don't have good training, fortunately my horses don't bother. I wouldn't dream of letting my horse slop along, frightening people, children, etc because hes feeling good.

Your dog is relying on you to train him how to behave in public places and to control him - he gets his cues from you, as owner. If you as the owner don't appreciate basic manners, then its a pity for your dogs.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 10:01:37

I think this is the point I was making...... Just as this thread shows that the law gives priority to humans, so does "parklife".

People become territorial over their use of the park. The next move they make will be sitting down with a picnic. FFS. I have asked people why they don't do this in the area of the park which is fenced of as a designated play area, and they will tell you that older children are playing on bikes or with footballs. Well ok then you have chosen to risk your sandwiches where there are dogs running free so deal with it!

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:04:17

YNK, you are on another planet.

You really think I shouldn't have taken my DD to the park?? That it's my fault and I put her in danger?

OP, if your dog is territorial towards your family to the point that it defends with aggression then you are wrong not to have it on a lead at all times. My GS is friendly, but if challenged will respond, being the breed she is, she will come off better against most dogs. She shouldn't be held accountable for this. You cannot have the same laws for dogs as we do for people, if challenged, they might respond and the bigger/tougher breeds should not be under threat of being PTS because they cam hold their own in a fight.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:09:44

Birdsgottafly - did you read my OP?

My dog is not territorial and didn't defend with aggression.

is your dog dead? Not to be blunt but every Mastiff that I know would have killed the other dog, if they had been biting for a few minutes and if it didn't attack your DH in the process then it is safe to have around people. I think that you have misinterpreted the dog initial reason for coming over.

Booboostoo Mon 22-Apr-13 10:14:43

The dog should not have run up to your DD. All dogs should know not to pester people and to only approach if invited, or they should be kept on a lead until they learn this.

This thread has been a bit hijacked by YNK's silly comments. Setting those aside, I will ask the OP again, are you sure the dog was intent on attacking your DD? Such a random and exceptionally aggressive move is very rare and I doubt the large dog would have been in any way put off by your dog; he would have ignored your dog and continued for the child.

Is it possible the large dog was coming over to play (which I completely agree it shouldn't have) and your dog guarded the family which set off the fight?

Did the bites break skin? If they did you should take your dog to the vets asap as dog bites can get very infected.

Homebird8 Mon 22-Apr-13 10:15:40

IMHO, stuff what the dogs did or did not do, although I think the OP is a responsible owner.

What about the woman got completely in my face and threatened me (while 30 weeks pregnant holding my sobbing DD)? shock

KansasCityOctopus Mon 22-Apr-13 10:16:07

ffs, some fucking loons on this thread.

OP, yanbu, not even slightly, not even for a nanosecond.

All my local parks quite clearly state that dogs should be kept on leads at all times and anyone letting them off would be asked to leave.

Parks are for everyone to enjoy, and yes, even if that means you want to sit on the grass and enjoy a picnic, or walk your dogs, or your kids.

But you said it happened so quick. Your dog jumped in front of your DD, it must have been in a protective manner, which had warning body language attached (to a dog anyway). If you were behind you didn't see your dogs stance fully. You now know that it isn't a good idea to have your dog off the lead with your DD.

Kansas, you do realise that the OP's dog wasn't on a lead also?

Kansas, you do realise that the OP's dog wasn't on a lead also?

fuzzypicklehead Mon 22-Apr-13 10:21:14

True, Homebird.

The woman's behaviour should have been enough to get the police to take notice, even if the dog's didn't.

ATJabberwocky Mon 22-Apr-13 10:21:43

YANBU, all dogs should be on leads where children are. There should also be a way to report aggressive animals so the owners have to keep them muzzled when out in public. I hope your dog is OK.

"The owners appeared and pulled the dog off after a few horrible minutes, and argued with us that the dog wasn't dangerous, and the woman got completely in my face and threatened me "

I'd also report the owner. Any dog owner that has to pulled their dog off from another, clearly has way to argue their dog isn't dangerous.

Stinkyminkymoo Mon 22-Apr-13 10:23:35

YNK you're talking complete bollocks (though have skipped rest of thread as I got more irritated) we have a large breed dog, she gets walked at least 50/60 miles a week. She's not off the lead in a public place as her recall is terrible and she's dog aggressive.

I would be horrified if my dog did this and simply cannot understand your pov at all. Parks are for responsible people, not dog owners who can't control their dog.

I know exactly what kind of owner you are and I'm not impressed.

Jesus Christ. I generally prefer animals to humans but some of the reactions on this thread are fucking loopy. Parks are for human enjoyment not a free range dog play area where people should be locked up in confined areas. Dog owners should have full control of their pets either by instant recall or on a lead.

OP if your dog has been wounded and needs vet treatment is it worth saying there's been criminal damage done? Dogs are possessions and your possession has been damaged causing financial cost? Don't know if it would work but might be worth a try.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:24:30

Birdsgottafly - you weren't there. No, thankfully my dog is not dead but he is injured.

Own a mastiff by any chance??

Booboo - it all happened in a matter of seconds, as soon as my dog was in the way, I was already grabbing DD, at the same moment as the dog went for my dog. It was a completely vicious, horrible dog, I have had dogs all my life, as a child and as an adult. I know what that dog ran over to do. It didn't approach in a friendly way, Once through the trees it sort of lunged at us. It's so hard to describe and include every detail when it was so quick, but I promise I'm not wrong. I was so worried for other children in the park I called the police the second we were in the car, and I wouldn't call the police lightly.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:26:05

And birds - I totally disagree! I couldnt be more thankful that my dog wasn't on the lead!!!

Homebird8 Mon 22-Apr-13 10:27:20

Yes fuzzypicklehead, last time I looked, threatening behaviour by a human was something the police should be interested in. Perhaps the OP in her shock and focus on her own dog and DD forgot to mention it to them.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:30:30

I did tell them, I was shaking like a leaf and my DD was crying, they heard my panic and focused on the dog issue. They didn't seem overly concerned about her.

This vile owner deserved to be spoken to by the police, I agree, for more than just her dog, but my main concern was to get my DD away from her and my dog somewhere we could check him out.

kitsmummy Mon 22-Apr-13 10:30:49

I haven't got time to read the whole thread, so this may have already been suggested, but have you spoken to the RSPCA? My work colleague's two dogs were attacked on seperate occasions by an ex fighting dog. The owner thought he was above the law is it's a dog on dog attack.

However, the RSPCA are fighting this through their solicitors and trying to prosecute him on the basis of the man inflicting cruelty on dogs, through not controlling his dog.

If they win, it will be ground-breaking and should make it easier in the future to prosecute dangerous dogs. It's worth speaking to them about it anyway.

MajaBiene Mon 22-Apr-13 10:32:11

If a dog was running full pelt towards my child it would get a kick in the head from me.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:33:21

I'm not sure anything will do any good now, I dont know their names, and only have a vague description of the owners and whereabouts in the park they were.

Homebird8 Mon 22-Apr-13 10:36:28

Goodness Georgie, then you've been further let down by the police. shock Given that you and this woman are both likely to be using the park again, with or without your dogs, I think you should be prepared to call the police again should you get any more threatening behaviour from her. So sorry for what you've all been through. sad

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 10:37:00

I think a lot of people need to familiarise themselves on dog laws before they make assumptions.
In my local park there is an area where dogs can run free. They are not allowed in the other areas of the park which is fenced off. There are lots of other parks close by where dogs must be kept on a leash at all times.
If you decide to bring your toddler and dog into the area with free range dogs then you are crazy to assume dog owners will change their behaviour to suit you!
Every spring parents do this in the area I run my dog and are often aggressive toward dog owners. They are the ones choosing to turn their back on other areas and assume they have priority everywhere. Not so.....I invite them to talk to the local authority for clarification of the law!

The fact that dogs can run free doesn't mean they have priority over humans. I have a dog, who runs free in a park also used by families and haven't once had a parent be aggressive towards me. Maybe because I realise my dog comes second to human users hmm

MajaBiene Mon 22-Apr-13 10:40:10

In every park I have ever been to, there is no separate dog only/off lead area. There is no choice to go to a dog free park.

I am a dog owner. In fact, I own a dog who is fear aggressive towards other dogs sometimes. I sometimes walk my dog in the park. I never allow him to approach other people or dogs. If there are toddlers about, I lead my dog. Why? Because as much as I love my dog and it's a pain to have to keep leading him etc, people come first. My ownership of a dog should not negatively impact anyone else. The vast majority of dog owners feel the same. In the OP's circumstances, if I was the mastiff's owner, I would have grabbed my dog and apologised profusely while checking that her DD and her DDog were ok. I would not have gone off on one or tried to shift blame. Seeing dogs play is great, but not all dogs like to play and permission should always be asked for imo. If a dog runs up to mine and doesn't get the hint pretty quickly my dog will chase it off.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:43:02

YNK - so to expect dog owners to be responsible and keep an eye on their dogs, or to keep dangerous ones on a lead is selfish of me to expect??

That isn't changing behaviour to suit me!! That is just common sense and common courtesy!!!

Greenkit Mon 22-Apr-13 10:44:37

Actually while looking for another bit of information about dogs I found this

Out of control dogs

Section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act applies to all dogs that are out of control in a public place, not just those listed above. If a dog acts in a manner that makes a person afraid of attack, then it is an offence. The penalties are the same as those imposed upon people who own a banned dog: a maximum fine of £5,000 and/or a six-month prison sentence. A dog that is dangerously out of control may be seized by the a police officer or by a dog warden. It is possible for the courts to issue a warrant that will enable the police to enter a building and seize a dog. Courts can order the dog to be destroyed.

Dahlen Mon 22-Apr-13 10:45:11

If the OP wished to pursue it, she could pester the police about this. An offence has automatically been committed if a dog bites a human, and because this didn't happen the police aren't that interested. However, a court can decide if a dog is considered to be 'dangerously out of control' regarding incidents in which another animal is injured.

I'm not sure what will be gained from that, however, if there is no means of tracing the mastiff and owner.

I don't know what really happened. It's very possible that the intentions of both dogs have been misinterpreted. Ordinarily, I"d say that' the case.

However, the fact that the mastiff owner got completely in my face and threatened me (while 30 weeks pregnant holding my sobbing DD) is rather suggestive. Yes, people get defensive in shock, etc., but no reasonable person would threaten a heavily pregnant woman even in difficult circumstances. It may make me prejudiced but the combination of a large breed with a reputation (however unfairly deserved) for aggression, combined with an owner who thinks nothing of threatening a heavily pregnant woman with a small child in tow, to me paints a picture of someone who has deliberately chosen a large breed for the status they think it confers without bothering to put in the hard work necessary to retain control.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 10:45:33

Maja, perhaps you should campaign your local authority so everyone can enjoy the parks.
sjj, I am glad you have never had this experience. Round here I have been talking to the other regular dog walkers, and just as we expected, the first sign of sunshine has brought out the aggressive parents who wrongly assume they have priority in all areas.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:48:55

YNK- I give up. You never answer a direct question. Just keep sprouting your nonsense. Aggressive parents??!

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 10:50:13

Dahlen - I would love to pursue it, but I have no idea how to find these people and was scared and intimidated and eft as quickly as we could so only have a vague description at best.

MajaBiene Mon 22-Apr-13 10:50:51

Humans have priority over animals.

Greenkit Mon 22-Apr-13 10:51:51

Ask other dog owners, if they act like that they will be well known, or get back onto the police as I posted above they had a dog out of control

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 10:55:15

Well caught up on the thread after leavingit kat night and 2 thingthings are confirmed.

1st YNK after avoiding the question is indeed the owner of a large uncontrolled dog and a shining example of the culture of idiocy that will see ALL dog owners penalised for the acts of a few.

2nd the attitude of "look at my huge bollocks with my dead 'ard dog" is ringing loud and clear. If a mastiff wants to attack it'll have your dog, nice.

Apologies to the responsible large breed owners but you are becoming a minority Ithink.

KittensoftPuppydog Mon 22-Apr-13 11:00:59

Please remember that dogs need to run free and behave like dogs. I'm more nervous of aggressive dogs than most people as my dog has been attacked quite badly, however I do think we need to remember that human beings are not the only animals in the world, and that we are a lot more dangerous than dogs.
It seems to me that there are many places where dogs are not allowed or must be kept on leads. The few places where dogs can still run free should be protected.
Having said that I think that people who allow dogs to be aggressive should be prosecuted. It's in all our interests that they are.
When my dog was attacked I did a bit of detective work and then informed the local council. They warned the owner and got her to agree not to take the dog to that park anymore.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 11:01:36

I have answered questions repeatedly. I have also said my dogs are under control, again repeatedly.
Humans take priority and that includes dog owners (who are, incidentally, human too).
I still maintain that if parents know they are in an area where dogs are running free, they are risking their childrens exposure to dogs running around. If they choose to take this risk for a toddler, they are being irresponsible parents.
There are lots of areas they can go to where I live.

Oh my god, YNK sums up the aggressive, apathetic attitude of dog owners that think Tiddles the Mastiff should be able to run wherever, off their lead and in the papers the owners of the dog who have just maimed or killed a child 'oh, but he/she is such a softie'. People before dogs, sorry, but there it is. Parks are for children and anyone wishing to take their dog there should have them on a lead. It is because of people like YNK that my son is scared of dogs. It gives the responsible dog owners a bad name.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 11:03:40

So how could I be a responsible parent? Keep my 2 year old away from the park? Always carry her? Arrange a babysitter for her when my dog needs a walk?

OP, I meant to add, I hope your DCs and dog are ok. flowers

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 11:06:07

Another dog went un expectedly for my dog last year, they both played nicely then suddenly this sheep dog turned and pinned my dog down.

The owner took the dog to the car, apologised, then to my surprise she came back again and apologised again ( I was heavily preggers), had a close look at my dog, and chatted to me for a while.

miemohrs Mon 22-Apr-13 11:07:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 11:08:46

where we are - there is no where that is dog free.

i actually think some parks should have dogs banned now.

i have a dog and I am sick of dangerous looking dogs around, off lead with irresponsible owners.

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 11:08:53

YES THEY HAVE PRIORITY IN ALL FUCKING AREAS BECAUSE THEY ARE PEOPLE, NOT DOGS.

The very LEAST that people can expect in a park is not to be apprehended by an aggressive dog or owner. Or in fact a friendly dog, because believe it or not, some people don't want to be approached by strange potentially unpredictable dogs. YOU are the irresponsible one YNK, you and your band of 'regular dog walkers.' I am a regular dog walker and I know many other regular dog walkers, and I have NEVER experienced an attitude such as yours.

There is absolutely no need for a dog to approach another person or a small child, regardless of where they are in the park. My dog is completely happy and has the time of his life running around in the park where there are other dogs and children, because he has been trained to act appropriately, and does so brilliantly. To suggest that a parent shouldn't use the area of the park where dogs run free is crazy, people like YOU should train their dogs not to approach people or other dogs.

Regardless of the intentions of the big dog in this situation (FWIW I believe you OP), the dog should NEVER have bitten the OP's dog. If the little dog acted defensively (and rightly so in the circumstances), then the bigger dog should have picked up on the signals and backed off- but he didn't. Which therefore suggests that the bigger dog cannot be trusted to be off lead. The little dog did absolutely nothing wrong.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in saying that you are clearly trying to wind people up YNK, if you aren't then I seriously hope that you don't actually own dogs.

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 11:09:56

what about your local paper?

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 11:12:28

* Or in fact a friendly dog, because believe it or not, some people don't want to be approached by strange potentially unpredictable dogs*

Totally agree.

Usually in the park small Dc and their parents want to come up to my little dog, " 'og og" ooh little dog....--because she is astoundingly beautiful and gorgeous-- and now I have actually changed tack and I discourage it and just say she is a puppy she isnt but looks like one and she may get scared of your DC.

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 11:13:05

YNK if (to steal a phrase) ickle Tiddles your Bull Mastiff runs up to people and children regardless of intention ITS NOT UNDER CONTROL.

<<wonders if shouting can penetrate inch thick skull>>

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 11:13:48

I think all dogs should wear a muzzle when out.

It would stop all these attacks dead.

No question and if you see a dog out without a muzzle - easy peasy, call 111. Dog out no muzzle....

Some dogs do wear them, they survive.

TheSmallPrint Mon 22-Apr-13 11:20:13

I cannot believe people defending the mastiff and owner.

I am 5'10" and a biggish build but if a mastifff came running at me I would shit myself. Seriously. Now imagine that you are 2.5yo? No-one, NO-ONE should let their dogs run at other people. Most people DO NOT like it, even if they are dog lovers.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 11:21:03

Yes I own dogs, no I don't have a mastiff, yes my dogs are under control.
I am not going to keep repeating myself for the benefit of people who do not read my posts. If you hate dogs there are lots of places you can go where you will not encounter them.
Is that just too easy for you?

YoniMeKateMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 22-Apr-13 11:23:43

Morning everyone,

Thank you to everyone who brought this thread to our attention. We have no reason to suspect that anyone here is less than 100% genuine. We'd also like to remind you our our talk guidelines

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Apr-13 11:26:37

It's difficult to say whether OP's dog behaved appropriately without having been there. In general dogs should not behave aggressively to solve tension. I walk with a pack of mixed breed dogs regularly and there are often little spats between them, the 'leader' of the pack never dilutes tension using aggression, he uses calming body language and a technique known as 'splitting'. Adding aggression to an already aggressive situation is always going to escalate the matter, however OP does not say whether her dog showed aggression/aggressive body language when coming between the dd and the Mastiff. He could have been doing any number of things. If he used aggression then, yes, perhaps a bit more socialising in order, but that does not mean that Mastiff was in the right, whatever OP's dog was or was not doing, the Mastiff should not have ran at them they way it did.

I also agree with whoever said that if the Mastiff was going for the child, then it would have went for the child, regardless of what the other dog was doing.

YNK it is not okay for any dog to run upto a small child, whatever it's intent, size or breed. If you cannot control your dog keep it on a fucking lead FGS. This is something that is really bothering me atm.

A good few months before I broke my arm my dog was attacked on lead by another dog on lead dog, well on one of those awful fecking flexi leads, that should be outlawed imo. After this she started suffering fear aggression on her lead. We had very nearly solved this problem and were up to allowing 3 second greetings with strange dogs when I broke my arm and her training stopped.

Sadly, I realised after deciding I was now well enough to brave on lead walk, that she has massively regressed and is now more lead aggressive than ever. It was a nice day on Friday, meaning more dogs than usual were out and about. Our walk was fucking terrifying and I am not scared off dogs at all. I am so glad my children were not there. I cannot count the number of off lead dogs that ran up to mine, on two occassions the owner was at least 10 foot behind their dog and unable to call it off. My arm is still sore and I had Devil Dog with me also so trying to keep Whippy from snapping at and thus potentially starting a fight, with the other dogs was painful and hard. My elbow is still painful from the extra strain put on it from holding her back.

One owner even muttered that fateful phrase "Don't worry, he's friendly" hmm my reply was "You see that small, snarling black thing by the side of my leg, the one that is practically foaming at the mouth? Does she look remotely like she wants your dog to sniff her rear end? No? Then call him back NOW, she is on lead for a reason." I ended up using Devil Dog as a decoy and letting him loose every time a loose dog rudely approached us, in the hope that they would then greet him and give me and Whippy time to get a distance she felt safe with while the owners managed to control their dogs.

I haven't dared walk her on lead since sad and doubt I will again until the bad weather comes back and my arm is stronger.

It is not on to let your dog approach people or on lead dogs unless invited to do so. If you can't call them back immediately keep them on a lead until you can.

Children, other dogs, lead aggressive dogs, have every right to use public areas safely. If you can't be arsed to train your dog, rehome it to a rescue who will. For every one's sake.

<climbs down from very high horse>

ChaoticTranquility Mon 22-Apr-13 11:28:57

OP YANBU

Ignore YNK it's obviously a wum

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 11:32:37

YNK it is not okay for any dog to run upto a small child, whatever it's intent, size or breed. If you cannot control your dog keep it on a fucking lead FGS. This is something that is really bothering me atm.

WHERE have I said this??

Oh and thanks Kate, I should to be able to voice my opinion without being called a troll!

zukiecat Mon 22-Apr-13 11:34:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 11:37:37

The other problem is - we have been told consistently that we should not " get into dogs faces" they see it as a sign of aggression.

Most adults would instinctual know not to crouch down and get into a rotweilers face, but children? The same height anyway? what do they do?

zukiecat Mon 22-Apr-13 11:38:01

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 11:41:28

You have not read my posts zukie. I cannot keep repeating myself so stick to what you imagine I have said if you really must!
Sure the parent has every right to go where she likes. If she does not like dogs running free, she has lots of other options. If she chooses to go to places where they are running free, she cannot guarantee all dogs are as well behaved as mine.
Why would you take that risk for your toddler, when there are many other options?
crazy!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 11:42:43

How am I contradicting myself? Please read my posts properly.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Apr-13 11:44:12

Large breed dogs, who have been well socialised with small children, would more than tolerate a child being at eye level with them. It will be something they are more than used to. Direct eye contact by way of 'staring a dog out' should be avoided.

Most dogs when well socialised with people and children are more tolerant with small children than they are with adults. Whippy was socialised on school runs is quite happy to let children crowd her, kiss her, hug her, put their face against hers and even try and lift her up, although I usually intervene at this point in case they drop her.

olgaga Mon 22-Apr-13 11:45:39

Unfortunately my DD will no longer go to the park and is very reluctant to go on any walks or bike rides through woods or open spaces around here. She is on edge the whole time, waiting for a dog to appear. Just one bad experience was enough to put her off for life.

It's such a shame that dog owners seem to have no idea of how big and scary a dog can appear to be when it takes an unwelcome interest in a small child, especially when the owner is nowhere to be seen.

I'm all for dogs "running free" in designated spaces, and I really don't understand why it's too much to ask for children to be able to enjoy dog-free parks and public spaces.

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 11:47:07

This is literally like banging your head against a brick wall.

The OP clearly doesn't hate dogs, she has one. She does however object to an unknown HUGE dog running up to her DD, and i'd imagine that would be the case whatever the intention of the dog. By your reasoning, no children should be allowed in the park with any off lead dogs, because 'entitled' dog owners like you shouldn't possibly be expected to call them away from small children?! How does this make the parents the 'entitled' ones??!!!

nailak Mon 22-Apr-13 11:48:49

like where? to get to the swings you have to go trhough park? also park is area for ball games, frisbee, walks etc...

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 11:49:20

YNK, then I ask you again, how could I have been a more responsible parent??

For what it's worth, I love dogs. I have a dog. We regularly walk in this park with family and frends and dogs and small children and have never had a problem.

Do you not think its unreasonable to suggest I go somewhere they don't allow dogs, given that I have a dog that needs walking??

Would you like me to always walk Dog & DD in separate parks??

YoniRaver Mon 22-Apr-13 11:53:30

Its is a dog owners responsibility to STOP its dog from running up to a child, or even an adult, I hate dogs running up to me and I dont care how 'soft' they are,

I dont hate dogs..I hate irresponsible dog owners

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 11:55:39

Erm YNK? I think you'll find you've said it twice. ....

Dogs who love small children will run straight at them/up to them

Well ok then you have chosen to risk your sandwiches where there are dogs running free so deal with it!

GooseyLoosey Mon 22-Apr-13 11:56:33

YNK - parks are for everyone to enjoy. That is their function. There are no areas specifically for dog owners to enjoy. Therefore, those there with dogs should ensure that their usage does not adversely affect other people's. Likewise, any other user should ensure that they are not stopping other people enjoying the park.

Most councils have guidance on the use of public parks. Here's an example of what one says about dogs "Keep your dog under control and within your sight so as not to cause alarm to other park users... Take extra care when your dog is off the lead to ensure that it does not frighten or alarm people or other animals". The owners failed to do that in this case.

I have incidentally not found one council that recommeds keeping children out of parks so that dog owners can enjoy them! That may be what you would like, but it is not the reality of the function that parks are there to serve.

zukiecat Mon 22-Apr-13 11:58:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 11:58:28

No I dont walk my dog and grandchild seperately. I often take them to the park where all dogs are on leads. If I take him out to the park where dogs are running free I am vigilant where there are strange dogs around and would choose to go to the other side of the park.
I have often chosen to go home if I am in the least unsure about my grandson or dogs safety.
I appreciate this dog came running out of the woods without it's owner. Now you know this can happen I trust you will make better choices for your child and dog.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 12:01:18

Better choices HOW??!

What bad choice did I make when the dog came through the trees with no warning, when you say that you yourself have taken a child to a park where there are dogs??

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 12:02:00

Better choices being stay home incase wallys like you are out with your happy bounding free hell hound YNK?

Do you have a neck tattoo and JKyle on speed dial to go with that attitude?

<<gives up being polite>>

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 12:02:26

If you all want to make choices based on how you think things SHOULD be, that is entirely up to you.
Personally I would not risk my granchild, my dogs, or my sandwiches, when there are so many other options.
That really would be crazy!

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Apr-13 12:03:14

For the love of god have you actually read back what you are writing YNK?

OP should be able to enjoy the woods without having to worry about of of control dogs.

FWIW I used our local woods to train my dogs recall, because they are always deserted, they were still always within my sight and leashed up before we exited the woods.

It is not parent's responsibility to think about or plan for other people's dogs, they should be leashed or under control.

Parks and woods are for everyone to enjoy, safely. OP does not need to make better choices, the owner of the Mastiff needs to retrain her dog and control it properly.

34DD Mon 22-Apr-13 12:03:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoupDragon Mon 22-Apr-13 12:05:12

Any dog who bounds up to a child unchecked is not under control.
Any dog who attacks another dog is not under control.
Any dog who runs through someone's picnic is not under control.

Anyone who believe otherwise is an idiot.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 12:05:52

YNK, then do you actually suggest that it would be a better choice if I never took my dog to that park? That I should find someone to look after DD everytime he needs a walk??

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 12:06:29

No need to be insulting (again!) Ss. Again I will tell you my dogs are under control.
You betray your entitled attitude by referring to my dogs as hellhounds. You don't know us and you refuse to listen to what I am saying, preferring to insult instead of engaging in reasonable manner!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 12:10:07

Correct Soupdragon. Why would you take the risk when there are lots of other options. Why do you need to go to that particular park, op? Just because you can?
Again, I will say that I DO control my dogs. Yawn!

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 12:10:59

But YNK I tried reasonable, I tried shouting, we've all tried logic, it didn't work therefore I'm resorting to amusing myself with pisstaking.

It prevents me from slamming my head into the wall in despair.

MajaBiene Mon 22-Apr-13 12:11:49

What are the other options if your child wants to ride their bike in the park, or you want to have a picnic? Stay at home so you won't meet any out of control dogs?

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 12:12:54

34DD - my dog did nothing wrong. He had perfect recall and didnt bother anybody. He was completely under our control until this dog lunged at DD, and I am ridiculously grateful for what my dog did then.

My dog has numerous cuts, scratches, had a bloody mouth, face, ears & neck.

My parents live two minutes from the park, we went straight there and my parents (again, lifetime dog owners) looked at him and I rang the emergency number on my vets answering machine. They asked mea few questions and subsequently I'm taking him in today.

My dog is a much smaller dog, but not minuscule, he is a spaniel, and today he is quiet, subdued, doesn't want to play with DD and has a hot nose.

My dog doesn't have to be dead for this dog to have gone for my DD, he's injured enough.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 12:13:29

And again, thank god my dog wasn't on a lead.

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 12:13:44

Yes, and you are clearly listening to other peoples POVs aren't you YNK?!

So you say that you take your grandson to parks where dogs are off lead. So does he have some sort of magic repellant that wards off dogs? Because otherwise I fail to see what exactly the OP has done that you don't do yourself. That is VERY hypocritical. So if a dog ran from behind a tree towards your grandson, how exactly would you react/do differently?

I am genuinely very interested to know.

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 12:15:08

YNK - why shouldn't I go to that park? It's close to my house, my DD likes it. How will any other park with dogs somehow be different??

SoupDragon Mon 22-Apr-13 12:16:36

YNK, I think you are under the impression I agree with you. I don't. You appear to think dogs are equal to humans. Again, you are sadly mistaken.

SoupDragon Mon 22-Apr-13 12:18:35

Dogs who love small children will run straight at them/up to them, with no evil intent!

I you believe that is acceptable then I do not believe you have your dogs under proper control.

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 12:22:14

But people please note that YNK is clearly saying that loose dogs are an inevitability so we should avoid the situation and stay out of parks.

Just as rapists are inevitable so we should all stay home and wear long skirts.

Burglary is inevitable so don't get attached to your valuables.

Drink driving is inevitable so if you choose to drive don't complain if they crash into you.

Terrorism is likely so move out of urban areas.

That's the size of it Yes YNK?

KansasCityOctopus Mon 22-Apr-13 12:22:43

YNK, you might have your dogs leashed and be a responsible owner, but your attitude stinks, and quite frankly, you're verging on being a complete idiot if you think people should avoid parks with their children on the offchance there may be an uncontrolled dog.

The onus SHOULD NOT be on the parents to 'make better choices' the onus is completely, 100% entirely on the owners of dogs in the park to make sure they're under control 100% of the time.

i dont allow my child to run up to peoples dogs, the same consideration ought to be shown my child.

CheeseStrawWars Mon 22-Apr-13 12:23:19

OP, there should be more legal recourse for you on the grounds of the animal being out of control, see here: https://www.gov.uk/control-dog-public/overview

It’s against the law to let a dog be dangerously out of control:
in a public place

Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:
injures someone
makes someone worried that it might injure them

A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if:
it injures someone’s animal
the owner of the animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal

You can be fined up to £5,000 and/or sent to prison for up to 6 months if your dog is out of control. You may also not be allowed to own a dog in the future.

kansas that's it in a nutshell

Booboostoo Mon 22-Apr-13 12:25:38

Do give the dog warden a call. He may wellknow the mastiff from previous complains, but even if he doesn't, it's good to have a record of problem dogs to look out for.

Doodledumdums Mon 22-Apr-13 12:25:47

Softlysoftly makes a very good point!

YNK Mon 22-Apr-13 12:26:19

No Ss.

KCO if you are happy to make choices based on how you THINK things SHOULD be - fill your boots!

curiousgeorgie Mon 22-Apr-13 12:27:04

YNK - please tell me how my choices at the park were any different than your own?

KansasCityOctopus Mon 22-Apr-13 12:28:00

i will thanks, as i said, the parks near me quite clearly state dogs should be kept on leads.. so if an unleashed dog approaches me or my kids univited i will fucking kick it.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Apr-13 12:31:06

And then you will probably be bitten and will be no better than the owners KCO.

Report it, fine, kick it and you're just asking for trouble from the dog and/or owner.

You made some good points in your previous replies to YNK, but that last one simply lowers you down to her level.

Oh ynk has provided a fascinated insight into the mind of all those people who let their aggressive dogs roam free- it's because children and families shouldn't even be in the parks or woods- they are dog spaces- children can piss off elsewhere.

34DD Mon 22-Apr-13 12:33:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

It shouldn't matter if you think your dog is good natured or not. Other people don't know your dog & can't make a confident judgement on your dog. Would you suggest people wait until an unknown dog actually demonstrates it's intention by licking or biting people. I suppose at least then the intention would be obvious & you wouldn't be able to complain about irresponsible parents thoughtlessly being near your lovely gentle dog.

What better choices are there, given that in the UK, all public parks are for the use of dog owners as well as parents & everyone else. I will be most interested in your response to Doodledumdums question.

LessMissAbs Mon 22-Apr-13 12:37:18

KittensoftPuppydog Please remember that dogs need to run free and behave like dogs. It seems to me that there are many places where dogs are not allowed or must be kept on leads. The few places where dogs can still run free should be protected

That's because so many people who own dogs also want the convenience of living in towns and cities. I wouldn't dream of keeping a horse in a place where I couldn't give him proper exercise, either in a field or by riding, because it suited me. Hence, along with many horse owners, I arrange him to be kept somewhere that provides both, although it means I have to travel further and costs me more. And I'm working towards buying a place with my own land for them one day.

Likewise, there are people who have dogs who have things such as large gardens and access to open areas of countryside without lots of people.

Why have big dogs if their only exercise is going to be in an urban park full of children?

miemohrs Mon 22-Apr-13 12:43:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Apr-13 12:48:17

Yes, if one is actually attacking you, fair enough, although it is likely to just make it worse, I'm not sure what else you could do, but kicking one just for coming up to you? Why? What would that achieve other than potentially provoking the dog and/or owner?

You certainly wouldn't be in any position to make a complaint after kicking the dog, would you?

34DD Mon 22-Apr-13 12:48:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OhDearNigel Mon 22-Apr-13 12:55:10

A dog doesn't have to attack a human to be dangerously out of control in a public place. Attacking another, smaller dog is evidence that the animal is out of control. Section 3(1) of the Dangerous Dogs Act states

3(1) If a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place:
(a) the owner; AND
(b) if different, the person for the time being in charge of the dog,
is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog while so out of control injures any person, an aggravated offence, under this section .

Causing injury to a person aggravates the offence but does not mean that injury has to be caused for the dog to be ooc. The definition of "dangerously out of control" states that there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that the dog will injure any person, whether or not it actually does so. It has been held that, for the purposes of an offence under section 3(1), if a dog causes injury without first causing anyone reasonable apprehension that it will do so, the injury itself constitutes grounds for reasonable apprehension of injury; Rafiq v DPP [1997]

Sounds to me like the police officer dealing with the case has misinterpreted the legislation. (I have dealt with quite a few DD cases in my police service and know the legislation quite well). I would ask to speak to their sergeant or inspector for an explanation

Yes, my Brother has to go to court because he was looking after my Mums dog while she was away, and it attacked another dog.

She is a nightmare with small terrier type dogs, and my Mum never lets her off the lead, he thought it would be OK to do so though after having a look around and believing no one else was there. they were though and she attacked a dog quite badly, my Brother gave the lady his details and said he'd pay for any treatment, she still called the police though, and he has to go to court for having no control over the dog.

Saying that though, did the other dog attack your dog OP? Or was it the other way round because your dog believed it was going to?

musicismylife Mon 22-Apr-13 13:17:25

OP, yanbu. I would have been terrified. I hope that you are all ok.

But when I did have a dog, I remember taking it to a park and letting it off of its lead. These two huge dogs came bounding up to mine and started 'chasing' it. My dog (I thought) looked scared and I became hysterical. I remember shouting at the owner to have better control of his dogs (I was brave in those days).

He then pointed out that his dogs were, in fact, playing with my dog and what the fook was my problem. It was only then that I realised that they were playing. His dogs were chasing mine. I had assumed that because they had ran up to mine that they were wanting trouble.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Mon 22-Apr-13 13:23:11

YNK - please stop now because you are making dog owners sound rather bonkers!

I have a gorgeous soppy beautiful dog whom I love dearly but I understand that not everyone likes dogs. I therefore keep an eye on him when he is off lead and call him back to me if we are walking close to children. Once we are past them, I will then allow him to run free again - I don't have to use a lead for this but use voice commands such as 'heel' and 'release.' It must be really frightening for a young child to turn round and come face to face with a dog the same size as him/her. I believe that dogs need off lead exercise for their well being but dog owners and other park users need to live in harmony together which is why I makes sure my dog is well trained. I keep my dog away from children unless they want to interact with him, in which case I make sure I am next to him at the time.

Children should be taught how to interact properly with dogs and dog owners should make sure their dogs are well trained. This is the best way for everyone to be able to enjoy communal spaces together.

My dog is well trained and is really soft. I get anxious when I see big powerful dogs come bounding up to him - my dog wouldn't stand a chance if one of them went for him - when such a dog approached us and was snarling at snapping at my dog and circling him, my dog didn't know what to do and hid behind me --despite the fact that he himself weighs 25kg! Thankfully the owner was following and I ranted at him to get his dog on a lead which he did. Irresponsible dog owners and untrained dogs worry responsible dog owners too!

KCO - Perhaps next time someone approaches me, even when I have no idea whether they are friend or foe, I should give them a punch in the mouth - after all, they may possibly attack me so I better punch them quick. hmm

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 13:31:47

Can we have prior warning for dogs that have been well socialised before they scream up to us - bounding around and smiffing us or snarling?

" oh dont worry - this dog is well socialised?"

Muzzle

Muzzle

MUzzle

its the only way forward.

D0oinMeCleanin Mon 22-Apr-13 13:36:43

Education, Education, Education.... It's the only way forward, for both dog owners and the general public.

DEFRA had a real chance to make a difference with the latest changes to the DDA, unfortunately they chose to ignore all the advise they were given by canine behavior experts, rescues and other welfare associations and went ahead with what they originally planned, despite being heavily advised against it.

We need to prevent attacks before they occur, not punish for them afterwards.

KansasCityOctopus Mon 22-Apr-13 13:51:02

why do people insist on using people as a comparison for dogs? Its not the same. Stop it.

to clarify, i missed a word out, i meant to say "an unleashed aggressive dog approaches me'

Of course i'm not just going to kick at any dog that approaches me, i'm a pretty good judge of intent, i can tell the difference between a dog just coming to say 'hi' and a dog who is being aggressive, like most people i've been raised around them.

i'm not going to kick at a 'hi' dog, i might not be happy that its off the lead in a park where that's prohibited, i will just stand still, tell my kids to keep their hands to themselves and identify the owner and ask them to please recall their dog.

If its approaching and i perceive it to be aggressive, then i'm going to defend myself and my kids however i think necessary, and if as an owner, you don't like what i do to your dog in defence, keep your dog on a lead in a public place and stop letting it approach random people.

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 13:54:12

Some people do not want to be educated.

they want their dog to be scary and violent. That is why they have it in the first place.

MyDarlingClementine Mon 22-Apr-13 13:55:33

The only fail safe way of stopping attacks it to make all dogs wear a muzzle in public spaces when not on the lead.

EccentricElastic Mon 22-Apr-13 14:08:30

I can't believe what YNK is saying, it horrifies me!

At the age of 8 (a long time ago) I was waiting at the gate of a friends house for her to come out to play, when an Alsatian came bounding up to me and jumped up at my face. I simply pushed it off laughing, but it turned around, snarled, bit me deeply on the hip and started dragging me along the path, shaking me as it went.
My screams alerted the neighbours who managed to free me from it, and it ran off.
I ended up with 37 stitches in my hip/leg, unable to walk for nearly a month, lifelong scars, and avoidance of all other dogs.

A few weeks later it went on the attack again, jumping on the back of a little old lady as she walked down the street. It bit her neck and face , and floored her. she later died.

Common sense tells me that there many lovely dogs out there, and I applaud and appreciate their sensible owners.
But irresponsible owners and their dogs terrify me, and because of this I have spent my life avoiding parks and such because of this very subject.

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 14:17:22

Yes YNK. Thats exactly what you are saying. Parents should avoid parks with loose dogs (so pretty much all parks) as there is the danger there. And if they choose to recklessley go there anywhere the inevitable event is their own fault.

The same applies to all the examples I gave.

But I doubt you will ever see that as you are wrapped up in your own bubble of idiocy.

frumpet Mon 22-Apr-13 14:17:31

I own a large dog , not a percieved dangerous breed , but a big bugger none the less , he loves nothing better than a free range romp round our local park . If i see other people approaching or other unknown dog owners i always call him and put him on lead , not because i think he is a threat to them but because other people dont know him and all they see is a big dog , by putting him on the lead until they pass they are reassured that they are safe and that he is under control . To me it is just polite ,and only takes a few minutes.

Where we live, unless you drive, it is unavoidable to miss the two parks to get to DS1's primary school, they are the only route. What are we supposed to do? There have been lots of incidents recently with unruly dogs off leads terrifying the pre-schoolers and reception years (and the children in question weren't even running about so as to excite dogs particularly). The owners are abusive and don't care. There is one lovely lady with a dog called Bentley, always on a lead and well-trained. Wish the others were like that.

Inertia Mon 22-Apr-13 14:42:36

YNK- irrespective of whether the dog was in an area where it was allowed to run free, it still legally has to be under the control of a responsible person. This dog clearly wasn't under control, because it attacked another dog.

People are perfectly entitled to take their child and their dog to the park- free running dogs allowed or not- because all of the dogs there should be fully under the control of their owner. Saying parents shouldn't take children to parks, and blaming them for being attacked by out-of-control dogs, takes irresponsible behaviour to breathtaking levels.

By the way, exclamation marks do not have magical powers to make selfish bullshit either legally or morally justifiable.

OP- YANBU.

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 14:55:26

Inertia do you creep?

Imsosorryalan Mon 22-Apr-13 15:17:33

With the majority of posters strongly disagreeing with
Ynk, you'd think she/he would understand they are in the minority and therefore MAY be wrong. I wonder who is entitled here?
I've been on MN for 3 yrs. have my first everbiscuit YNK

DreamingOfTheMaldives Mon 22-Apr-13 18:44:39

KansasCityOctopus - of course your addition of the word 'aggressive' puts an entirely different slant on your post about kicking an approaching dog. But that isn't what you put in your post, you suggested you would kick any dog approaching your DC which is why I made the comment about punching any approaching person because they are potentially capable of attacking. I think the comparison of the two is completely justified in response to your original post - in fact I still think comparing the two is quite justified - I would be quite within my rights to punch an aggressive person who approached me, if I feared they were going to attack me.

Inertia Mon 22-Apr-13 19:46:03

Softlysoftly I had to look that up- I don't know the song, will have to go it a listen.

And no, I don't really creep smile

Softlysoftly Mon 22-Apr-13 21:25:26

I'm showing my age grin

JassyRadlett Tue 23-Apr-13 00:09:52

YNK, if you're still reading the thread, can you honestly not see that public spaces where dogs are allowed off the lead are not solely or primarily for the use of dogs? They are shared spaces where all users have a responsibility to make sure their use of the space doesn't have a negative impact of another's use of the space.

If a person's use of the space is invariably going to have a negative impact on other users - such as dogs that are out of control, running at small children or adults or are even just over-exuberant and want to make friends with strangers - well, guess what. They lose out. Their use of the shared space is inherently antisocial.

They are shared spaces. That is, they are to be shared by all park users. Where I live, most parks are like this; apart from small playground areas. Where on earth do you live that there are large, grassed areas where dogs are forbidden or must be kept on the lead? Where is my toddler supposed to kick a ball or go for a decent walk or play a game of chase, if irresponsible dog owners have priority in that space, by your warped logic?

I'll keep my toddler away from dogs we don't know. I expect dog owners to keep dogs I don't know away from my toddler. If they don't, they're perilously on the edge of allowing their dog to be dangerously out of control.

Honestly, you're the sort of person who gets dog owners a bad name and ultimately will lead to more and more public spaces being declared off-limits to free-running dogs, because you are more interested in making excuses for badly-behaved dogs and badly-behaved owners than in actually looking at reasonable solutions to the problem.

Georgie, I hope your dog's OK.

JassyRadlett Tue 23-Apr-13 00:11:21

BTW Inertia, I love your post. Most especially the exclamation marks bit.

YNK Tue 23-Apr-13 08:42:47

Where have I said that dogs should be out of control? I have made the point that parents can choose to be in parks and areas where dogs have to be on a lead or not allowed at all.

JassyRadlett Tue 23-Apr-13 09:01:43

YNK, by suggesting (repeatedly) that it's ok for a dog in a park to run at people it doesn't know. That's not a dog being controlled by its owner. You've repeatedly suggested that the OP was in the wrong by fabricating/extrapolating information that wasn't in the OP rather than admit that in this case, the dog and it's owners were completely in the wrong and whole most of the time small children and well socialised dogs can coexist in public spaces very happily, a few dog owners spoil things for everyone.

But no, go on suggesting that toddlers should be confined to fenced, paved, crowded areas only (the only 'dogs on lead' public spaces anywhere I know). That's very reasonable.

tillytrotter11 Tue 23-Apr-13 09:13:55

Well said, Jassy. Spot on! x

BlueberryHill Tue 23-Apr-13 09:35:58

Agree Jassy, I have three small children, teaching them all that you do not approach dogs unless the owner says it is fine (plus DH and I in the background making sure it is OK). I would hate it if any dog came bounding over to my children, I would have no idea if it was friendly or may not be able to intercept in time. All the areas near me are dual use or no dogs at all. Why shouldn't I be able to take my children to a local woodland area with walks, specifically designed for children and dogs, because dog owners can do what they like and let the dogs run free and stuff non dog users.

I have never had any problems, mainly because we seem to have responsible dog owners here with well trained dogs, considerate of all.

Don't see why because you walk in a park all the year round that 'fair weather' users have less rights. You don't own the park or acquire squatters rights over the winter. Share the space responsibly and keep your dogs away from my children.

YNK you haven't answered Doodledumdums question:

So you say that you take your grandson to parks where dogs are off lead. So does he have some sort of magic repellant that wards off dogs? Because otherwise I fail to see what exactly the OP has done that you don't do yourself. That is VERY hypocritical. So if a dog ran from behind a tree towards your grandson, how exactly would you react/do differently?

I am genuinely very interested to know.

In the UK, there are very few public spaces where all dogs have to be on a lead. Only certain breeds have to be restrained in most places. Some parks have (very small) fenced areas for swings etc but a lot are not fenced. If there are livestock they have to be restrained only at certain times of the year.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 23-Apr-13 17:08:42

I love my dog, she is small bichon type cross, I have seen her playing with my dd and I trust her but still only 95%, she is still a dog!

One day, the conditions may throw her and as she is an animal she may bite someone?

On one of these threads once someone who worked in A&E said

" Its not the drug dealer type owner/dogs that usually bit people, it was always the ' oh but he has always been so good'"

Loveable family pet.

JassyRadlett Tue 23-Apr-13 18:32:47

Thank god, guys, I was starting to think I was missing something.

cathpip Tue 23-Apr-13 18:55:35

Op I hope your dog and your dd are feeling better. You and your family are perfectly entitled to walk in a park where dogs are loose, I mean you were walking yours! Also the fact that your dd was clearly not running amok and was close to you as was your dog shows that you have control. My dogs (who also get walked with toddlers, shock horror!!) would also stand inbetween another dog approaching rapidly. This dog could well off been defending itself against a possible attack, but in my opinion dogs that run up are not the ones defending themselves. Sadly there are some dog owners who are completely irresponsible and like to blame everybody else for theirs and their dogs failings.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

YNK Fri 26-Apr-13 08:48:53

I have replied several times, but obviously no one is reading my posts! I have reported 50 shades for yet another troll accusation!

olgaga Fri 26-Apr-13 09:08:56

Well now that you're back YNK I'd be interested to hear your answer to the question from Doodledumdum:

So if a dog ran from behind a tree towards your grandson, how exactly would you react/do differently?

Uppermid Fri 26-Apr-13 17:48:57

Ww, there's some nutters on here.

Hope your dog is ok, what did the vet advise you do re this other dog?

YNK Fri 26-Apr-13 22:59:02

I have already answered that! How many times!!!!

When?

YNK Fri 26-Apr-13 23:19:44

How about you re read???? 50 shades?

YNK Fri 26-Apr-13 23:23:01

The attitude of people on this thread does nothing to give me confidence that I will not be abused for taking my dog out for a run in the park!

Doodledumdums Fri 26-Apr-13 23:25:36

I don't think you have answered my question?

Wallison Fri 26-Apr-13 23:31:49

I am astonished that someone thinks dogs should take precedence over people in public spaces. They are fucking animals, ffs. People should not have to avoid public spaces because of filthy crapping hounds.

Actually, I'm so sick of entitled irresponsible and downright dangerous dog owners that I think the only answer is to require all dogs to be on a lead and muzzled at all times. Fuck all of this 'running free' crap - it's far more important for PEOPLE to be able to run free and enjoy public spaces without some fucking animal attacking them.

YNK Fri 26-Apr-13 23:34:51

If a mastiff was going to attack, a wee dog would not stop it!
I was advised on Mumsnet that my dog should be pts because a child was screaming from 50m away at the sight of my dog despite her being totally under control!
I can only assume there are people who have no idea of the value of animal life! What on earth are they teaching their children?????

YNK Fri 26-Apr-13 23:38:11

Do you not crap, wallison? I have answered you several times Ddd. Do you not listen????

Wallison Fri 26-Apr-13 23:40:30

I don't crap in the sodding street, YNK. Or in parks or nature reserves.

I also don't bite toddlers' faces off.

Doodledumdums Fri 26-Apr-13 23:43:11

Where?! I asked you a specific question about how the OP has behaved differently to how you do when you go out with your grandson in areas where dogs are running free, and what you would have done differently in her situation...and I have re-read this thread and re-read it, and I fail to find an answer to my question...let alone several answers?! I'm not the only one who thinks that this question has gone unanswered!

trixymalixy Fri 26-Apr-13 23:49:13

shockshockshockshockshock

Are you for real YNK.

You really expect everyone else who wants to enjoy the park to do so in a fenced off area so your dog can run wild. FFS! Bonkers as conkers.

What DDD & trixy said.

Pleasedontpassmeby Fri 26-Apr-13 23:59:02

Wallison,totally agree with both recent posts.

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 00:15:07

The park I go to 365 days a year is divided into 2 3rds non dog activities! There is an area for bowling, BMX, tennis/ball games, small children's play area and football etc, and one third area for all to enjoy! Most of the year the only people there are dog walkers!

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 00:17:26

Re read my posts Doodle!!!!

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 00:19:25

There are lots of areas where dogs are leashed for you all to enjoy!

Wow where is this lovely park? We need more parks where I can let my baby onto the grass without fear of dog doo & blindness. And no, I don't have a garden. House prices around here are extortionate.

Doodledumdums Sat 27-Apr-13 00:22:40

I have....I fail to see an answer to my question...

MyDarlingYoni Sat 27-Apr-13 00:25:06

No I am sick of dog shit.

My poor girl cannot walk bloody anywhere, pavement, park without fear of fucking dog shit.

Its needs to be cracked down on.

Parks have CCTV now, get someone out - fine them if they do not pick up and in parks, off lead, dogs must be muzzled.

MyDarlingYoni Sat 27-Apr-13 00:25:40

cant sit by the river, cant picnic hardly anywhere because of dog shit.

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 00:31:04

RE dog shit - you all have different experiences to me, but the op didn't ,mention shit! doodle, re read my posts and stop abusing me!

YNK as it appears that several of the posters on this thread are not able to find your response to DDDs question, please could you repeat it or tell up exactly which post you are referring to? As I have also re-read all your posts, as per your request, & can't find an answer to DDD's question, bearing in mind that in the UK there are very few parks with special restrictions on dogs, lot of towns have no dog free areas at all.

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 00:48:41

Re read my posts again 50 shades!

Doodledumdums Sat 27-Apr-13 00:56:15

I'm not abusing you? I was just asking for an answer to my question.

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 01:13:29

Hmm that would be why your post accusing me of trolling was deleted then???

CSIJanner Sat 27-Apr-13 06:57:16

RTT - am slightly ghasted with my flabber.

YNK - I can see your point that if you don't want a dog in your sandwich or bounding around you, then you should keep to the no dogs allowed/keep on leash section of the park. But you are ignoring the major point everyone has tried to get across:

Parks have been created for the enjoyment of people and therefore priority should be given to people. You choose to have a dog, therefore it's your responsibility to keep your dog under control around people, dogs or children it doesn't known no matter what area of the park you are in.

By arguing that OP should use the non-dog areas of the park, you are putting the onus of the other dogs behaviour on her, her child and her dog which is wrong. The other dog approached OP's walking party and therefore the other dog owner should have had it under control or be able to call it back. It's not the responsibility of the OP to make the other dog behave by being in a dog walking area of the park, and by suggesting that she uses a different area reads as your suggesting that the problem should be avoided as opposed to the dog owner taking responsibility.

FWIW, I don't agree with your argument. But then I own cats who no doubt shit in the neighbours gardens when they're not trying to moult all over my clean laundry.

pippitysqueakity Sat 27-Apr-13 08:12:41

Doesn't matter how often we all read your posts YNK, you have not answered the specific question about how you would protect your GC.

Victim blaming at its best, from you.

OP, YADNBU, and I hope you read the post by Ohdearnigel, because it gives some very good advice, but may have been lost amidst the frothing.

Hope your dog is ok, and all goes well at the vets today (or was that yesterday, now?)

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 10:54:36

I have answered - you are not reading my posts!

BlueberryHill Sat 27-Apr-13 11:10:57

I couldn't find the answer either, it would be really lovely YNK if you could find the post and just refer to the date and time, you could find it so much quicker than we could. We all seem to keep missing it.

maddening Sat 27-Apr-13 11:13:19

Ynk you are coming across as a dog attack apologist!

Any time a dog attacks something or someone then it and it's owner are in the wrong not the thing or person who happened to be there.

Anyone who can not control their dogs should not have them in a public place unleashed and possibly unmuzzled (particularly if the breed is large and physically able to overpower it's owner).

trixymalixy Sat 27-Apr-13 11:37:59

Absolutely appalling attitude YNK. It's people like you that make me think that dogs should be kept on a lead at ALL times.

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 16:21:59

Of course, I am advocating that dogs should be out of control and trained to attack.....pffft!

pippitysqueakity Sat 27-Apr-13 18:12:37

Okay, I have read and reread your posts.

Perhaps since we are all so thick and unable to understand, maybe you could repeat how you would protect your GC in the circumstance described.
Thank you in advance.

pippitysqueakity Sat 27-Apr-13 18:13:18

Sorry, that was to YNK.

YNK Sat 27-Apr-13 18:51:32

Thanks to all of you who illustrate my point about people being aggressive to dog owners!

maddening Sat 27-Apr-13 19:13:31

No one is being aggressive, no one is suggesting that you are advocating out of control dogs - but what you are doing is suggesting that it is anyone but the dog owner's responsibility for preventing dog attacks by simply avoiding them - which is not the case in what everyone describes as reality.

It is always the dog owner's responsibility to maintain control of their own dogs especially in public wherever they are. Anything but complete control is unacceptable.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BMW6 Sat 27-Apr-13 21:43:40

There is never anything to be gained by arguing with the insane. YNK is of that ilk, so walk on by.

KansasCityOctopus Sat 27-Apr-13 23:33:00

YNK, what is so hard about just telling us which post? Just give us the date/time stamp so we can go and read it.

Your persistant refusal to refer us back to it just makes it look like you're stirring.

I am torn between wanting to know what YNK will say, & wanting to hide this conversation as it's massively getting on my nerves.

OP - YANBU. You & your dog & child should be able to walk in the park in peace. So should other people, including those who own big scary looking dogs, without having to worry that they are going to witness any unpleasant incidents such as you described, no matter who starts them.

I feel sorry for the dogs as well - if they are badly trained they are surely more likely to get aggressive & out of control. It's not the dog's fault it's undisciplined & has to be put down when it attacks someone. The owner should be in control of it at all times, if they can't do this they shouldn't be allowed a dog in the first place.

KansasCityOctopus Sun 28-Apr-13 00:14:33

i actually stood by someone with an unleashed but muzzled large dog this week, i asked why they'd chosen to muzzle (i used to have a greyhound we muzzled because of his habit of cat chasing, so use that as an opener when being nosy)

He told me that he trusted his dog implicitly, he was well trained, perfect recall...etc, but there were so many arseholes out there who didnt control their pets, he didnt want to be responsible for his dog ripping theirs to bits if one decided to attack him, and even the best trained dog in the world can be unpredictable in the wrong circumstances.. he didnt feel it was worth the risk.

Restored my faith/sanity a bit there. Thanks, Kansas.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 28-Apr-13 01:09:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MidniteScribbler Sun 28-Apr-13 05:13:23

They are shared spaces. That is, they are to be shared by all park users. Where I live, most parks are like this; apart from small playground areas. Where on earth do you live that there are large, grassed areas where dogs are forbidden or must be kept on the lead? Where is my toddler supposed to kick a ball or go for a decent walk or play a game of chase, if irresponsible dog owners have priority in that space, by your warped logic?

Here, dogs must be on lead at all times, unless in a designated off lead dog park (usually fully fenced in), although there are some larger park areas and beaches also accessible to dog owners to allow their dogs off lead. I think it works well. There is also provision in the law for dogs participating in certain canine events (such as agility and obedience, herding or field trials) for the club to determine when dogs may or may not be off lead within the precincts of the trial without breaking the law.

Forgetfulmog Sun 28-Apr-13 05:25:24

Right got about 2/3 of the way through this thread before ynks comments started to make me seethe. Where I live the parks all have notices saying that dogs should be kept on leads, but the dog owners just ignore them. So, where am I supposed to take my dd???

Midnitescribbler what country do you live in? Sounds like similar regulations to what YNK has described. If she also lives somewhere where dog areas are quite restricted, that might explain why she is struggling to understand the other points of view on here (even though several people have mentioned that most dogs are not restricted in public areas in the UK).

YNK Sun 28-Apr-13 13:24:57

Yes I do live in an area like this, where shared areas are few and far between. Yet still parents make a big issue of coming to the only shared area for miles around to shout at dog owners.
They only seem to come out on sunny days though. Otherwise dog owners and children get on fine the rest of the year. There are some lovely children who encourage my dog to play hide and seek with them and it is so nice when everyone gets on well.
BTW I live in a small town in Northern England and I am well acquainted with the law and local bylaws. I usually refer aggressive parents to also check out the law!

Wallison Sun 28-Apr-13 20:59:57

Thing is, a shared area is just that - a shared area. Ie not a dog area. And the needs of humans - whether they be to do with eating a sandwich in peace or just to be able to walk around - take priority over those of animals. Tbh if you have the kind of 'dogs come first' mentality irl that you have displayed on this thread, then I'm not surprised people shout at you. If your dog is bothering people trying to have a picnic, for eg, and you counter their objections to this with a statement that your dog is allowed to be there, then of course they are going to get cross. It might be allowed to be there, but it doesn't mean that it should disrupt what other people are doing and you as a dog owner are responsible for it, whatever type of area you are in.

DameFanny Sun 28-Apr-13 21:29:05

Ynk - you do know that dog ownership is a privilege, not a right don't you?

And that in return for the privilege you have a responsibility to ensure your dog is not a public nuisance?

And that public nuisance encompasses things such as not fouling or frightening, as well as not attacking other creatures? And not discouraging other people from enjoying the public spaces we've all paid our taxes for?

DameFanny Sun 28-Apr-13 21:30:53

Btw, I'm assuming that ynk stands for 'you never know'. Perhaps ynl or ynu would be more appropriate?

SolomanDaisy Sun 28-Apr-13 21:41:33

An unleashed dog came over and licked my toddler DS's face this week. He was sitting picking daisies virtually underneath a 'dog's must be leashed' sign and 100 metres away from the specially fenced off area for dogs to run free. Doubtless YNK believes DS and I were to blame for this.

Yuck! Hate it when the PILs dog licks me, I've pushed him off my knee so many times he appears to have got the message. If I see him lick my DD I would probably go bat shit crazy. They lick their bums to clean them, never let a dog lick you. (shudder)

Misspixietrix Sun 28-Apr-13 23:08:44

*Its is a dog owners responsibility to STOP its dog from running up to a child, or even an adult, I hate dogs running up to me and I dont care how 'soft' they are,

I dont hate dogs..I hate irresponsible dog owners*

^^This! what Yoniravers said!

OP YDNBU, Hope you, DD and your dog are okay now ~

MidniteScribbler Sun 28-Apr-13 23:18:48

Midnitescribbler what country do you live in? Sounds like similar regulations to what YNK has described. If she also lives somewhere where dog areas are quite restricted, that might explain why she is struggling to understand the other points of view on here (even though several people have mentioned that most dogs are not restricted in public areas in the UK).

I'm in Australia, so obviously very different laws, but it shouldn't matter where someone is. Common sense should be universal!

I don't agree with what YNK is saying (and this is as someone who has five dogs), but I do roll my eyes when people pick the off lead area to have their picnic at our local park. Five acres of on lead area with picnic tables, playgrounds, lakes, shelters, BBQs, etc, but they want to eat in the 500 square metres of fenced off lead dog area, then get upset when dogs start circling their sandwiches. Common sense fail.

Use some common sense. Don't let your dog run up to people. Don't let your children run up to dogs. We'll all get along perfectly then.

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