selfish to refuse the mmr?

(66 Posts)
racheael76 Sun 21-Apr-13 09:26:51

many children and young adults are not being vaccinated against mmr.i have a young child and worry for the future if everyone had the mmr it would make three diseases history/extint.with people not protecting their loved ones these diseases are making a comeback.people with cancer ,low immune systems due to serious health problems eg transplant patients, and pregnant ladies and newborn babies are at risk.in the future it could be my daughter in law who is pregnant (lets say her mum didnt give her the mmr injection) she caught rubella known as german measles it could cause our grandchild to be stillborn or brain damage or heart defects/loss of hearing/bith defects.so the mmr does effect other people not just the person who is not vaccinated.

if my mum didnt give me the jab when i was younger i would be worried if i was pregnant with the outbreak.i would think she was selfish,thoughtless.if my baby had a problem i would think my mum could have prevented this by giving me the mmr = i wonder how my mum would feel.
on the other side some dont want to risk autism or mercury ,poison injected into their child they love.
what are your views?
is it selfish not to give mmr?

Dawndonna Sun 21-Apr-13 09:28:00

biscuit

Forgetfulmog Sun 21-Apr-13 09:30:24

Yes. YABU. Have another biscuit

I find it incredible that people are still refusing to vaccinate despite Wakefield being discredited & despite the measles epidemic.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Sun 21-Apr-13 09:30:25

here you go. click here

and, importantly, here

You'll be able to read through and see hundreds of views.

scaevola Sun 21-Apr-13 09:31:42

Several long threads on this already and still active.

NotYoMomma Sun 21-Apr-13 09:53:42

Small pox.

Measles epidemic.

I think except for health reasons then they should actually be mandatory hides

sugarandspite Sun 21-Apr-13 10:01:26

Excellent. You have resolved the whole debate with one carefully thought through, evidence based, scientifically valid post.

Well done you.

Do you mind popping down to Swansea? I think they may be in need of your wisdom.

NotYoMomma Sun 21-Apr-13 10:06:02

Well they wouldn't need help in Swansea if people had vaccinated would they? ;P

stirs shit

I'm just trying to end another thread

notfluffy Sun 21-Apr-13 10:10:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sallyingforth Sun 21-Apr-13 10:18:53

YES.

notfluffy Sun 21-Apr-13 10:24:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ModernToss Sun 21-Apr-13 10:28:43

I wouldn't start that thread because it's too easy to change that to ""is it selfish not to vaccinate and risk other children's health because my family is much more important", couldn't you?

Doha Sun 21-Apr-13 10:29:12

YES YES YES
I also developed an auto immune disease after the rubella in the 80's. I still have it and it does affect my daily life.
However despite this l never considered for 1 second NOT getting my 3 DC's immunised with MMR.
All have had it and all are fine. In saying that DD1 had her 2x MMRs and developed mumps in her 1st year at university-so it doesn't give 100% immunity.

VenusRising Sun 21-Apr-13 10:30:03

This is a flame OP, right?

Many people r genuinely unable to vaccinate their children! Others have been advised not to by drs for various reasons. Vaccine damage is very real in some families and whether or not we agree with their choice we have to try and respect the fact it was made as that was what was best for their children. Posting threads about how selfish or irresponsible they r is not helpful!!!

Do u not think the worry of their kids developing these illnesses is enough for them??? Perhaps research into reasons y they can't??!! Try to understand!!

notfluffy Sun 21-Apr-13 10:36:59

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pigletpower Sun 21-Apr-13 10:41:08

Shouldn't start school unless vaccinated.
Gavel.
Next.

Blissx Sun 21-Apr-13 11:23:14

Notfluffy-I despise views like yours. You have every right to your opinion but your actions have consequences. This is not meant to be a sob story but I think you need to hear it. My brother died in 2005 from measles. He was a TA in a primary school and it was around the time parents were opting for separate vaccines. But there is a long wait between each one. At the time three GPs misdiagnosed as they had never seen a case of measles. By the time we got him to a hospital a week later, he was in intensive care. He was 32. Please consider these diseases as causing death rather than just minor childhood diseases.

ReturnOfEmeraldGreen Sun 21-Apr-13 11:28:44

It should be mandatory except in cases of diagnosed autoimmune disorders which are proven to contraindicate vaccination. These threads always go mental sad

Morgause Sun 21-Apr-13 11:33:17

We paid to have the measles vaccine before imports were banned.

DS had already had mumps and not likely to ever be pregnant.

They should allow parents the choice of separate vaccines then more people would be vaccinated.

FarBetterNow Sun 21-Apr-13 11:43:43

Blissx: I am very sorry about your brother.

Historically, measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough were childhood diseases that most children caught and were ill for a week or two.

My baby boom generation had all of them, then we had immunity from them.
Catching the diseases was welcomed as it was far preferable to catch the disease as a child as the symptons were less severe (generally) than having the disease as an adult.

It was just part of our childhood.
I know children died from measles, which is terrible, but were there other factors involved - poor nutrition, poor housing?

I didn't know of anyone who died of measles, but I knew someone who had a severe reaction to whooping cough vaccine and became severely mentally & physically disabled.

As usual there are two sides here to consider.

Is this going to turn into a bunfight about who was most ill with autoimmune disease?

There really should be a bun icon as well as biscuit

M0naLisa Sun 21-Apr-13 11:53:47

Yes. If my 4mth old caught a disease which could have been prevented but instead foolish parents didn't do so (the ones who have no research and don't know shit - not the ones who can't have injection etc) I would be fucking fuming!!!!

Doha Sun 21-Apr-13 11:57:56

notfluffy pull your beak in hmm.

I have been inpatient and outpatient in several hospitals and Glasgow and still attend.I am on first name terms with many consultants having been attending so long. When Ds was born my family were told to expect the worse and even had contingency plans in place (unknown at the time to me) for the future care of my DC's.
I know my life expectancy is reduced but hey l could get knocked down by a bus tomorrow.I developed a rare complication that my surgeon and read about and never seen and get asked to go and help with medical students exams (guinea pig!!!)
Despite all this l never for one second did not consider getting MMR for my DC's. There was no family history of autoimmune disease or vaccination reaction and my DH and l made the decision together. My DCx 3 are healthy.
DD1 is due her first DC next week and again l will encourage her to have the MMR. Until the medical powers that be can prove us otherwise l will still support the MMR.

Iwantmybed Sun 21-Apr-13 12:01:24

It's not selfish to not choose an optional vaccination.

It's a risk some people choose to take.

notfluffy Sun 21-Apr-13 12:04:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

neunundneunzigluftballons Sun 21-Apr-13 12:48:04

Disease and vaccinations have consequences. In the most commonly vaccinated childhood illnesses the risks associated with the disease far, far outweigh the risks associated with the vaccine for the general healthy population. Nobody has, nor will ever have, the forsight to say for each individual child whether it might be the disease or the vaccination which might have a consequence for them. Personally I have vaccinated for every disease on the schedule and followed the schedule exactly but I have always had at the back of my mind that I do not approve of the multiple vaccinations and their regularity in the first year but the thoughts of having even more injections and prolonging the whole experience has meant I have gone against my gut feeling on this.

I believe people have a responsibility to act in a manner that not only looks at themselves and their family but also considers others in our society. I can understand people who are willing to take their chance with the disease rather than vaccinate, I do not agree with them and I think it is a hell of a lot riskier a strategy but that is their perogrative. I absolutely hate parents who consciously use herd immunity to protect their healthy childen from the risk of disease yes I have met some people who admit to doing this while other parents deal with the consequences of vaccination. Herd immunity is suppposed to be of benefit to children whose health is compromised by some other illness not someones pfb who is too precious to be vaccinated.

AnyoneforTurps Sun 21-Apr-13 14:02:28

I'd be less worried about "selfishness" than the direct risk to your DC. Here is a good summary of the risks of vaccinating vs not-vaccinating

CoteDAzur Sun 21-Apr-13 14:16:02

OP - You were on the last MMR thread. Why start another one, in AIBU no less?

YABU, if you still want to know. Each parent makes the decision to vaccinate or not for their own child. MMR is not compulsory and the decisions of other parents re their children's health is none of your business.

Hope that helps.

HazardLamps Sun 21-Apr-13 14:31:38

Maybe. If you want to call people (like me) selfish, that's fine, go ahead and fill your boots if it makes you feel better.

Is that what you wanted to hear?

Just don't go anywhere in your four wheeled fuel-guzzling, atmosphere-damaging, asthma-inducing, potentially lethal weapon again, will you?

CloudsAndTrees Sun 21-Apr-13 14:31:52

I don't think it's selfish.

But if it is selfish, then I think it's ok to be selfish about your own baby's health.

racheael76 Sun 21-Apr-13 18:41:18

If my parents refused to give me the mmr jab I would think my parents were thoughtless careless and selfish not the reason you state. If I was your daughter and I was pregnant caught german measles /rubella how would you feel if your precious grandchild was stillborn or brain damaged or had bith defect.i would not thank you for that.how would you feel. Ps if you have sons it could still effect you as it could be your daughter in law.
i gave my child the jab as i want to protect my child and others in society.
its not just children who are not given the mmr at risk from measles-its newborn to 1 year old babies who are not old who have not been vacinated and pregnant unborn babies.also our daughter /daughter in law ,sons partner could catch rubella while pregnant and our grandchild could be at risk of serious birth defects.i would feel terrible if i refused to give by daughter mmr and in years to come she caught measles or rubella when pregnant putting our grandchild at risk .my 12 year old son asked me yesterday "mum have i had my injection so i dont catch the nasty measles disease" i was pleased and he was reasured when i said yes.we need to make preventable diseases history by vaccinating .healthy children should not be allowed to start school if they have not been vaccinated as it puts teachers/other parents/relatives who have cancer /low immune systems from a medical problems or pregnancy at great risk.

Badvoc Sun 21-Apr-13 18:48:29

Whooping cough is called the 100 day cough for a reason....it's certainly not over in 2 weeks.
My cousin was left sterile by mumps much to the great sorrow of his wife and himself.
A boy in my sons R class got CP and was in hospital for weeks with serious joint problems.
I really hate this view that all childhood illnesses are best caught and "gotten over".
Prior to the WC vaccine 10,000 children per year died from WC.

reallyyummymummy Sun 21-Apr-13 18:54:11

I agree it should be mandatory unless you can provide a good reason for not having it, eg, risk of autoimmune disease.

notfluffy - I don't think anyone would not feel sympathetic to what happened to you. However, your case is one where you should not have been given it, given your family history. Taking everything into account, if 5-10% of the population can't vaccinate because of medical problems there will be enough herd immunity to protect people like you.

I am in the situation at the moment where I can't vaccinate my youngest because of his age and I would be really upset if a healthy child who should have been vaccinated gave my child measles, mumps or rubella just because they did not agree with the principle or they were worried because of an incredibly small and dubious risk of autism.

expatinscotland Sun 21-Apr-13 18:55:06

'Historically, measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough were childhood diseases that most children caught and were ill for a week or two.'

Historically, many children died or suffered permanent disabilities from these diseases.

'I know children died from measles, which is terrible, but were there other factors involved - poor nutrition, poor housing?'

Possibly one of the most ignorant things I have ever read on this site in 9 years.

crashdoll Sun 21-Apr-13 18:55:52

One of the MANY things I hate about vaccine threads is seeing people who do not vaccinate underplay measles/mumps/rubella/CP and make it out they're mild childhood illnesses. Fine, you don't vaccinate for your chosen reasons but it's insulting to deny the seriousness of these illnesses to those who have lost lives or suffered serious long-term effects.

racheael76 Sun 21-Apr-13 18:57:33

ps hazardlamps i dont have a four wheel drive i have a clamped out car! i will do anything to help people ie raise money for charities to help ill and the needy.my own child had meningitis so will do anything to help protect my child and others in society.i want to help children not just my own maybe thats from spending weeks in a childrens hospital surrouded by very very ill children.

expatinscotland Sun 21-Apr-13 18:57:40

My mother attended a posh private school in the 1940s and 50s.

She contracted measles at the age of 7, in 1948. She sustained permanent hearing loss in one ear. Two of her classmates died.

No 'other factors'.

I won't even touch on how losing a child is little more than 'terrible'.

hmm

Ever seen Mary Berry on the Great British Bake Off? Ever seen her left hand. It's next to useless due to polio she had when she was 14 despite coming from a lovely home with plenty of food hmm. She talks about all the children she met whilst in hospital who died of polio.

Badvoc Sun 21-Apr-13 18:57:46

Agree expat.
Staggering.

Badvoc Sun 21-Apr-13 18:58:43

Roald Dahl lost his eldest daughter to measles.
It had a devastating impact on their family.
Tessa wrote a very moving article about it.

JesusInTheCabbageVan Sun 21-Apr-13 19:11:25

I am a little bit hmm about people who can't spell their own name. Mind you, she spelt mmr right.

racmun Sun 21-Apr-13 19:52:26

Bored of these threads.

I doubt very few parents who's children haven't had the MMR isn't because they merely forgot - they have made a conscious decision and for many it is long thought out and agonised over.

It's not mandatory. Parents act in the interests of their own children and make decisions accordingly. Calling people selfish etc is pointless - you're not going to change somebody's mind by calling them names and ranting etc....

For all of you who in your opinion have done the right and noble thing and had the MMR done pat yourselves on the back and tell yourself you are a wonderful parent and a wonderful member of society.

But please respect other parent's decisions.

crashdoll Sun 21-Apr-13 20:14:52

It's hard to respect other people's decisions when it has an impact on yourself and your children.

Pixel Sun 21-Apr-13 20:47:31

It should be mandatory except in cases of diagnosed autoimmune disorders which are proven to contraindicate vaccination.

How is that going to work then? I thought a lot of these conditions didn't show symptoms until well into adulthood. Or can people be tested for them when they are babies? (I haven't a clue if that is possible). Even if it is possible to test everybody before vaccinating them I doubt it will ever happen.

racheael76 Sun 21-Apr-13 22:00:26

crashdoll you are so right.
its not just the child who has refused the mmr at risk its putting babies up to 12 months at risk,people with cancer,low immune systems caused by serious health problems,our future grandchildren as females are not given mmr jab.
my views are everyone should be given the mmr except if the gp recommends against it.
i would help in any way i could to safeguard a child ,i give to charity,i carry a organ donor card to help others should something happen to me.i want to help society.it upsets me and find it selfish when perfectly healthy children are not vaccinated putting mine and other peoples families at risk.if only we could all help each other like this team work for society instead of i will put my child at risk and others ,dont give to charity or help others attitude.

snooter Sun 21-Apr-13 22:07:34

MMR does not cause autism. Autism is a developmental problem & with the benefit of hindsight, children with autism showed signs before they were diagnoses. Any "research" that suggested it might was flawed.

"Natural" immunity from catching the actual illness is no better than immunity conferred by immunisation.

I think immunisation ought to be required for a place in the education system.

There is much too much happy-clappy tripe spouted about "natural" healthcare in general - unsurprisingly a lot of the anti-vacc brigade think home births a sensible option.

"Natural" includes stuff like dying from preventable causes.

snooter Sun 21-Apr-13 22:09:16

Diagnosed not diagnoses - oh for an edit facility!

slightlysoupstained Sun 21-Apr-13 23:07:29

snooter Seems a bit silly to conflate home birth with anti-vacc. One is fully supported by the medical profession, the other is not.

Lazyjaney Mon 22-Apr-13 07:28:33

Seem to be a lot of people on these various threads believing they have a very good [insert reason here] argument no to vaccinate their children. Problem is, too many think like that and you get Swansea etc (and there will be others).

Seems to be a very British thing, the other countries vie lived in make it clear you will get the jabs or school and various public facilities are not open to you.

post Mon 22-Apr-13 07:58:00

About 40 people die in the uk every year from flu, I believe. I wonder why we don't hear the same accusations of irresponsibility and selfishness against people who don't get, and make their children get, yearly flu jabs?

crashdoll Mon 22-Apr-13 08:07:08

post the flu has many strains, measles (for example) does not.

Badvoc Mon 22-Apr-13 08:17:05

There are about 240 strains of flu.
The flu jab is a vaccine that has the 4 most prevalent strains - according to the WHO - each year.
That's why even though I had the flu jab I still got flu last month.
Just not the strain I had been vaccinated against.
Also, the people who die from flu are without exception either the very young, very old, those with respitory issues or immuno compromised.

CoteDAzur Mon 22-Apr-13 08:47:42

" "Natural" immunity from catching the actual illness is no better than immunity conferred by immunisation."

I wouldn't say so, considering that:

(1) You will probably, but not necessarily, be immune to a disease after vaccination (i.e. vaccinated kids sometimes get the disease) whereas you will be immune after having the disease.

and

(2) Vaccine immunity wanes after some years and can possibly leave you vulnerable as an adult, whereas natural immunity following disease is forever.

Therefore, natural immunity from catching the disease itself is far better to vaccine immunity. The question is whether or not you want to risk having the disease to have this superior immunity.

In the case of rubella, the disease itself is very benign, so I would actually want DC to have it and be immune for life. Vaccinating babies for a disease they only really need to be immune to in childbearing years does not seem to be in their best interests.

Badvoc Mon 22-Apr-13 09:02:42

I nearly died of whooping cough as a toddler.
I got it again when I was 33.
Natural immunity my arse.

Badvoc Mon 22-Apr-13 09:03:12

...and you can get C pox more than once too.

expatinscotland Mon 22-Apr-13 09:06:36

My mother got whooping cough twice. Once in childhood, and once in her 60s. Her doctors assumed she had lifelong natural immunity and tested her for everything under the sun first.

Matsikula Mon 22-Apr-13 09:15:30

I suspect a lot of people simply do forget about the vaccine - in my area you don't get a reminder letter, and the advice on when to get the top up is conflicting. This is an area where they have historically had a low take-up. Plus my younger child is due their first dose of MMR right now but it is so hard to get an appointment with the nurse that I have considered having it done privately. I think they ought to be capitalising on what is going on in Wales and running drop-ins to get the rate up where it needs to be. I am a bit surprised the Government isn't putting more pressure on to achieve this.

SinisterBuggyMonth Mon 22-Apr-13 09:30:44

So (scrolls up to check date of OP)

2013 , wow!

CoteDAzur Mon 22-Apr-13 09:32:23

Badvoc - Not sure about your arse, but lifelong immunity doesn't necessarily form if you have an illness too young.

I had measles twice. Once when I was a baby, and then when I was 8.

It doesn't mean that natural immunity is as fickle a thing as vaccine immunity.

CoteDAzur Mon 22-Apr-13 09:35:26

I see that nobody had anything to say about rubella vaccination not being in the best interests of toddlers. It's good to see that this is now accepted and not contested on MN smile

Badvoc Mon 22-Apr-13 09:53:48

(I got cp on my arse actually)

CoteDAzur Mon 22-Apr-13 14:28:59

If you didn't have it anywhere else, have you considered the possibility that it may have been heat rash?

Badvoc Mon 22-Apr-13 19:53:15

It was very where sadly. Even in my eyebrows!

Raspberrysorbet Mon 22-Apr-13 20:02:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Runningblue Mon 22-Apr-13 20:05:07

Yes

Raspberrysorbet Mon 22-Apr-13 20:25:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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