to be tempted to advise my ds2 to hit back once and for all?

(45 Posts)
WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 19:26:21

belt this kid!

Of course I won't but I'm a bit at a loss as to what to do next.

Ds2 is 3. The other kid is 3 in July. 9 months apart. He's the child of a good friend.

They don't really get on. They used to clout each other and scream at each other. I've told ds2 to stop and he has.

But this other kid thumps him at every single opportunity. He gets mildly told off by his mother but he just laughs and refuses to say sorry.

I've asked her to watch her ds more closely at drop off and pick up (our older dcs are same age at school), I've rowed with her about it, I've told the kid off myself, caught his hand mid punch and stroked it, saying it's not nice, please stop it. He just lunges for my ds2 again.

The boy is really cute, younger than my ds and everyone in his family finds it faintly amusing. What can they do? He's only a tiny kid and his mother says its only my ds he hits. Which isn't true as I've seen wounds on his brother's face from the little one.

He starts at the same nursery next week and one of his sessions is the same as my ds2. I've asked ds2's session to be moved.

What else can I do? I'm getting pretty cheesed off with it as it's constant attacks.

Watching with interest as my charges friend does this to her constantly but no other child apparently and nothing seems to be working.

Alliwantisaroomsomewhere Sat 20-Apr-13 19:32:06

Tell your DC to wallop him back! Why should he not be allowed to defend himself? All this walking away stuff - bollocks. Whack him back!

I childmind a younger child who is an absolute nightmare when it comes to hitting and pushing and pulling hair. I tell him over and over and over not to do it, and I am working with the parents to get this behaviour to stop. But it continues. I am hoping that one of the other kids will relatiate and make him realise that he has to stop!! I cannot advocate it, though, with the kids I care for. But in your case, OP, I most certainly do.

Wishiwasanheiress Sat 20-Apr-13 19:34:51

How good a friend? Is it someone u can sit down with and say this situation seriously bothers us. It is not amusing to us. The behaviour is causing harm to our friendship?

It sounds as if maybe she's not hearing u, now could be she also has no idea what to do but if one of my friends felt they had to ask a nursery to keep our kids apart I'd want to know about it. There's a line and the boys well passed that I think?

Wishiwasanheiress Sat 20-Apr-13 19:36:52

I also agree one good wallop can be enough to cease it. Maybe he thinks as that won't happen it's funny? Did myself once to a bully. Worked a charm.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 19:54:11

Well, my friend has been a good friend.

She claims my ds has hurt her child just as much and she's not made a fuss. I think her boy is a bit of a Baby Jesus and can do no wrong. He's her youngest.

When we rowed about it, I said I was sure my ds had hurt hers in the past and I have apologised for that but also that I was and still am on it. I really tell my ds off, take toys away, make him say sorry etc. hence he doesn't do it anymore.

Unfortunately, I told her this in a red mist at school and she was furious I'd made her look like a shite parent in public. She's very popular, lots of friends at school so she's alway chatting rather than watching her ds.

It's also now where my ds is howling in pain from each clout and she will roll her eyes as if it's so annoying he's howling in pain.

To his credit, my ds doesn't hit back anymore. Perhaps I should say he can give him one big wallop and tell the mother her ds has been asking for it and nothing else has worked.

I haven't explained to the nursery why I've moved sessions. I don't want to be the accusing whiny parent but I'm kind of hoping it will emerge that it's not just my ds this kid hits.

He tried to hit my 7 month old ds3 today at a party. I think I would really lose my temper if he managed that.

So you think I should let ds2 'defend' himself?

SilveryMoon Sat 20-Apr-13 19:57:52

I tell my ds's to hit back if someone is hurting them and aren't being told off.
They hit each other back, which is a bit different but for other children, I tell them to hit back if the child didn't say sorry or hasn't been told off.
Especially if it's the same child again and again.

Alliwantisaroomsomewhere Sat 20-Apr-13 20:00:27

Yes, of course. Give your child permission to look after himself! Attacking is quite different from defending.

KareninsGirl Sat 20-Apr-13 20:02:28

They are 3 years old. I would be sitting down and speaking with the mother, not encouraging a toddler that hitting is right.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 20:03:52

I've already done that though.

KareninsGirl Sat 20-Apr-13 20:09:48

Then it may be time to cool the friendship. I had to do this when DD was small for similar reasons and the mum wouldn't listen. It shows a disregard of your feelings, and your child's feelings.

Do you really want your son to have to put up with/normalise the behaviour of your friend's child?

Wishiwasanheiress Sat 20-Apr-13 20:11:09

Hang on here this shouldn't read 'defend' its actual self defence proper! Why not encourage him to use his own ability to read a situation? Your not encouraging him to wallop him for nothing but if he's hurt him then yes he can shout oi stop that! Or belt him or his own idea.

Try karate lessons etc as this situation sounds confidence sapping.... Good luck

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 20:12:26

Sure but they see each other every am and pm at school.

candr Sat 20-Apr-13 20:12:28

Tell your friend that your DS has had enough and you will no longer insist he does not retaliate so if hers gets walloped then she is not to come moaning to you. However if she chooses to tell her DS not to hit then you will remind yours the same thing. How much should yours put up with ? sounds like her DS thinks your chldren are a pushover hence going for your baby!

TheChaoGoesMu Sat 20-Apr-13 20:16:32

I always used to tell dd not to hit back, go and tell a teacher etc etc. She was getting picked on at school and I was constantly down the school trying to get it sorted with the teacher. It didn't stop though and in the end I told dd to hit said child back if it happened again. Dd did, I happened to accidently witness it as I was walking away from the playground. It was rather spectacular from my quiet shy dd. Anyway, the child never did it again. Weirdly, they have ended up being friends.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 20:32:26

Candr, she does tell him not to hit. He just smirks. I've had enough as well. I mean how scary is it for a kid to be hit and the adults around can do nothing to stop it from happening. I'm not keeping my boy safe even around me. Seriously cheesed off about it.

KareninsGirl Sat 20-Apr-13 20:33:25

It's slightly different if an older child has to hit back after extensive bullying at school: they are more mature and are more able to rationalise the context of their hit being defensive.

A toddler may not be able to do this and therefore might start hitting other children if they feel unable to handle situations with other children.

Whilst I understand it's hard if the two boys see one another every day, I feel it might be best to approach the teachers and make sure they are aware of what is going on. In these circumstances they can also speak to your friend's DS, this reinforcing the message your friend seems unable to grasp...that hitting is wrong.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 20:36:52

Is self defence wrong?

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 20:37:36

This has been going on for almost a year now. My ds used to retaliate but I've told him not to and he stopped he just screams in pain now.

KareninsGirl Sat 20-Apr-13 20:41:37

Of course self defence isn't wrong but encouraging a 3 year old to hit back instead of exploring other options, such as restorative justice via tge school, is teaching him that it's right to hit. I am not suggesting that there aren't circumstances that a one off hit is appropriate but I think you need to look to the school for guidance first.

KareninsGirl Sat 20-Apr-13 20:42:50

If it's been going on for a year, why haven't the school intervened?

MarthasHarbour Sat 20-Apr-13 20:43:44

I just want to show some solidarity. I have recently cooled off a friendship because of this. She is rather smug about her PFB and is a bit 'right on' in terms of discipline. ie after her DS belted mine she took him to one side and had a discussion about anger management (this was when he was 18mo!). My DS is almost 4 and cries when anyone hits him, he wont fight back. I am at a loss as i dont want to encourage him to hit back but also dont want him to be a doormat.

No advice really, i copped out of the situation by just taking a massive step back from her and only see them at occasional birthday parties. However DS starts school in Sept so is going to be faced with this on a more regular basis (he wont be going to the same school as the other child thank gawd).

thanks

maddening Sat 20-Apr-13 20:47:17

Can you keep them apart at pick up if this is their only contact?

ClartyCarol Sat 20-Apr-13 20:51:47

I agree with pp that your poor ds is probably too young to take on board that he has special dispensation to hit this other child, as a one off, but he's not to hit any other children because hitting is wrong etc etc.

In your shoes I would watch my ds like a hawk, as soon as Hitty Boy approached I would be straight in there, if Hitty tried to lash out I'd scoop my ds up and roar give him what for NO, YOU DO NOT HIT [DS] !!!! I admire your previous restraint, but time to get tough because it doesn't seem like you'll get any support from his mother.

WinkyWinkola Sat 20-Apr-13 20:55:59

Ds3 is at the school nursery. They accept rising 3s. This younger boy is 3 in June so he starts there this term so it's not been a problem for the school to deal with so far.

Another friend said this child hit her ds. Same age. It happened at the home of the hitting child. His mother picked him up, smacked his bottom and sat him on the step.

I was amazed to hear that's she only ever gives gentle admonishment when he hits my ds. Perhaps she doesn't respect me either.

Our older children are very good even best friends though.

KareninsGirl Sat 20-Apr-13 20:58:55

Then I would make the school aware for September. They may put the boys in different classes. If it's not a problem at nursery at the moment then I think you should simply cool the friendship so your son doesn't have to put up with this treatment from your friends son.

Wishiwasanheiress Sun 21-Apr-13 07:23:16

Maybe if he's coming your house then next time it happens u step in and admonish the boy in front of her. First sentence being "this has gone on long enough!" And then admonish him to the degree u would if ur own boy. Don't hit him tho obvs. She might get a wake up call then.

I think ur friend is disrespecting you massively. It is also unfortunate that ur boy is following ur bidding and now possibly disbelieving that doing so is beneficial!

Agree all at nursery /school must know. You may have to lose this friendship to acquaintances status tbh. Kids will work out own selves.

Good luck. Feeling for u....

Wishiwasanheiress Sun 21-Apr-13 07:24:04

God there's always one kid isn't there.....?

My rules are you must never ever hit first but if someone hits you you push them away from you ( hit them back).

I would apply this in this situation. You DS has put up with it for long enough and if his mother is being ineffective then you have to manage what you can.

2 and 3 year olds understand big consequences. If he thinks if he hits your ds he might get a big shove back he should hopefully realise it is not worth it.

PurplePidjin Sun 21-Apr-13 07:52:18

Tell your dc to get in his face and shout NO then you need to pick up the hitting dc and take him to his mother, no matter what she's doing or who she's talking to, and say "Your child hit mine. You need to supervise him properly" then walk away and make a big fuss of your dc. Every single time. Embarrass her. Be loud, let your inner tiger out - you wouldn't accept it for ds3, why does ds2 have to accept it just because he used to do it? He doesn't now because you taught him, don't let this woman and her attitude undo your hard work.

Oh, and if she has that little respect for your ds, she's no friend...

EmmelineGoulden Sun 21-Apr-13 10:17:05

If she's harder on her ds when he hits other children could it be that she's letting it go now with your ds because of the history between them? You said earlier that your ds used to hit hers, and he's younger than her ds and when you\ve broached the hitting she responds that he's hurt her ds lots so it sounds like she might hold a bit of a grudge there. Possibly she took the tack you are currently considering and encouraged her ds to stand up to yours a bit more and doesn't want to go back on that even though yours is no longer hitting (maybe she's even secretly a bit pleased thinking your ds is getting his just deserts).

Possibly nursery is a good place to tackle this. Our nursery dealt pretty well with a child who was hitting one of my dcs - teaching my dc non hitting strategies to confront the attacker and stand up for himself and being firm with the attacker that it is unnaceptable. I think the fact it was in a group setting with consistant input from authority figures (teacher and TAs) really helped it be effective for both of them.

Otherwise I think the answer is to keep them well apart. You've talked to her and you clearly aren't going to change her parenting style. I'm not against kids hitting back in self-defence but your ds is a bit young to understand the nuances of what self-defence is appropriate. So keep them apart (which means keep apart from your friend when the ds are with you) and in another year they will probably see each other in a different light.

extremepie Sun 21-Apr-13 10:20:54

I was in a similar position with a friend and her DS.

Her DS was 3, my DS2 was 5 and much bigger than him but has ASD and is non verbal so couldn't tell anyone what this other child was doing to him .

I witnessed her DS strangling, punching, kicking and getting DS in a headlock - it made me rage but there wasn't really much I could do apart from separate them or watch them like a hawk.

Eventually DS did start getting fed up and keeping his distance from him. I saw him push her DS back once and after that I think he realised he wasn't going to get away with it anymore and stopped.

Interestingly enough, this child never touched DS1, who is NT and fully capable of defending himself smile

ChippingInLovesSpring Sun 21-Apr-13 10:32:45

Seeing as you are 'such good friends' I would tell her DS off in no uncertain terms - I wouldn't hold back. If he cries, he cries... life's tough. If she says anything I would simply say 'I thought he might take more notice coming from me as he pays no attention to you and my DS is fed up of being hit all the time <shrug>'

WinkyWinkola Sun 21-Apr-13 12:54:31

Yes I think I will be sterner with her ds. And I will make a fuss again even if it does look shite in public. Tough.

I suspect she does think it's just desserts actually as she believes my ds taught hers all he knows about aggression and violence. hmm

Ledkr Sun 21-Apr-13 13:06:29

I fell out with my friend over her sons constant bullying of my daughter.
Said friend never corrected him and he was five years older.
The boy is now a prolific offender and has a drug habit.

landrover Sun 21-Apr-13 13:28:41

I would leave them in the same nursery session and let the nursery staff deal with it (which they will!). They are used to dealing with these situations im sure and will knock it on the head, hopefully sorted for you xxxx

landrover Sun 21-Apr-13 13:31:57

Sorry, should have been more clear, i dont mean dumping the prob on to somebody else! but when the child is away from mum and having to behave it will probably make all the difference!

DrCoconut Sun 21-Apr-13 22:48:45

DS1was in the nursery class and another boy was a pain. The last straw was when this kid went round at the Christmas party taking the Santa presents off everyone. DS saw red and thumped him. End of problem. I wouldn't encourage hitting but sometimes it is the easiest and least problematic way of solving these issues.

Spice17 Mon 22-Apr-13 08:11:42

Alliwantisaroomsomewhere you're a childminder advocating a child 'walloping' another one? Christ.

WinkyWinkola Mon 22-Apr-13 15:23:11

So the child started today. He stamped on another child's foot for no reason. Got told off by the mother of that child a d he burst into tears. His mother was comforting him without realising why he was crying. When she was quickly told why he was crying she said nothing to the mother whose child was also howling because his foot hurt.

She never apologises. Makes me angry

So I guess nursery will knock him into shape. Meanwhile I will avoid both mother and child where ever possible.

ryanboy Mon 22-Apr-13 15:34:14

'This has been going on for almost a year now. My ds used to retaliate but I've told him not to and he stopped '
but your DS is 9 months older than the other child who is still 2 yrs old!! If the little one has been used to engaging in walloping matches with your DS, it's going to take him longer to realise the rules of engagement have changed because he is much younger!!
Tell your DS just to keep away from him! Don't fall out with the parent because the boys will most likely be the best of pals next week and it will be so awkward!

DoYonisHangLow Mon 22-Apr-13 15:52:22

I have to say, I do disagree with most posters on here.

If the children in question were 5/6/7 then es, but aged 2, really?!

The problem is shoddy ineffectual parenting on behalf of your friend but ultimately 2yo is still a baby and telling a 3yo to hit back is equally shoddy parenting IMO.

I would certainly intervene as you have decided to, but in a kind, gentle way. 'No hitty child, you can't hit DS, that's unkind' as many times as it needs saying. It be utterly pissed off with your friend too and would take a step back for my own mental health. This is not your friend's DS's fault, it is her fault and advocating hitting back at this age is ludicrous.

WinkyWinkola Mon 22-Apr-13 16:40:35

I don't blame the child obviously. And my problem is with the parent. My ds stopped all the hitting not just because he's older but also because he was taught it is the wrong thing to do. Plus I never let him out of my sight in case he is making mischief.

As for keeping away from the child, that's what we're doing except the child chases my ds around, trying to hit him at both drop off and pick up of my older dcs. It's tricky with an 8 month baby to manage too.

DigestivesWithCheese Tue 23-Apr-13 12:13:29

My DS was a hitter at around the same age blush. There was a particular child he always used to go for (the son of a friend ) & I was so embarrassed by his behaviour. He was told off and given time out every time but it didn't make much difference.

The other boy had a lovely gentle personality. I would have loved him to hit my DS back but it wasn't in his nature. One afternoon he did push my DS back & knocked him over. The other boy was big for his age and could easily have defended himself earlier, he was just too placid and nice to retaliate before that day. My DS was very subdued afterwards & II was secretly delighted grin. Strangely enough,, DS never hit his friend again and they are still good friends six years later.

My DS no longer has a violent streak (it seemed to stop around the time he started school). I honestly kept a close eye on him and really told him off/took him home if he did it etc. but nothing seemed to stop him. I also have other children who don't hit, I don't know why DS1 was like that.

I am amazed - and very grateful - that the other mum stayed friends with us and didn't hold it against my DS. He really was a pain when he was a toddler.

MarthasHarbour Tue 23-Apr-13 13:07:58

digestives i dont think there is any other way you could have handled it. The problem with my 'friend' was that she used to say she was sorry but didnt look it, and didnt really tell her DS off IYKWIM. I was more insulted by the fact that it didnt appear to bother her that much that her DS was hurting mine. If i could see that she was showing DS that it was wrong then it would have been happier. My DS is like your friend's boy, and just wouldnt hit back.

Pleased to hear your boys are still good friends smile

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