Landlord rights

(52 Posts)
Derpess Fri 19-Apr-13 19:53:29

Moving out in just over a week and landlord is arranging viewings. Me and DH have said that we would rather one of us is present as it's our home etc and could he do them evenings or weekends. Landlord has now said basically he will try but if there are any he can't then he is going to do them whether we are there or like it or not.

Am I right in thinking that he needs permission and can't let himself in if we have said we're not happy? Is it trespass?

Also we feel we have been very accommodating so far by taking time off when he has wanted to do viewings at 9am, but we don't want to use up any more leave to do this.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

He has no right and must give 24 hours notice beforehand anyway.

If you refuse you have every right to do so.

nocake Fri 19-Apr-13 19:57:34

If that's his attitude I'd tell him that you're refusing all viewings, as you have every right to do. I say that as a landlord who would never treat my tenants like that.

Derpess Fri 19-Apr-13 20:09:51

Thanks nocake and jazzannnonmouse I feel reassured now!

Just getting really peed off with his attitude, feel like we have been more than reasonable and accommodating and he doesn't get it.

Didn't really want to have an argument this close to us leaving (we have until now had a good relationship) but tempted to now just say you can come on these days/times with 24 hours notice any other viewings outside of what we specify will be refused permission.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea Fri 19-Apr-13 20:15:04

He is being unreasonable. I am also a landlord. I give tenants 48 hours notice and will rearrange if it is inconvenient for them.

Stick to your guns.

LimitedEditionLady Fri 19-Apr-13 20:19:08

He just has to give 24 hours notice to enter his property,you cant refuse him it.he is only trying to get new tenants if he messes viewers about he might lose them,cut him a bit of slack he might be stressed that youre going too x

I am also a landlord. My contracts say that once notice has been given the tenants must allow reasonable access for viewings (I'm afraid I can't be bothered to look for the exact wording), but it basically means that normal rules about notice of visiting doesn't apply during the notice period and they can't insist on being there. May be your contract says something similar?

Regardless it's hard enough to arrange viewings when it's only the landlord and the viewer to co-ordinate, for you to impose even more restrictions seems unreasonable in my opinion.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 19-Apr-13 20:43:00

If he has said he will try to get viewings at times that suit you, then that's a good thing. I think it would be quite mean of you to refuse to let him give viewings tbh, especially if he's trying to get convenient times for you. It would be a bit crap for him to have to lose out on new tenants just because you want to be there and won't be flexible about times.

Good relationships between a landlord and tenant works both ways. If he's been a good landlord, I'd make the effort. You are only going to be there for another week.

Hissy Fri 19-Apr-13 20:50:45

LimitedEdition, with respect, why would you post that when clearly you don't know the rights here at all!

The tenant's right to quiet enjoyment means that NOBODY can enter their home without their express permission.

The LL can show as many people as he likes round next week when the OP is gone!

The LL is NOT allowed to just use his key.

OP, If you're happy giving the LL set times, otherwise with 24 hours notice, that's fine, if not, you do have the right to deny all viewings.

Ok it may not endear you to the LL, but it is your home, and you DO get final say sas to who gains access.

Hissy Fri 19-Apr-13 20:54:04

Normal notice ALWAYS applies, and reasonable access is STILL only with permission of the tenant.

OP, post on Legal Matters, you'll be told a load af rubbish otherwise.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 19-Apr-13 20:55:56

Lots of rental contracts state that tenants have to allow access for viewings during the notice period, it really isn't that unusual. Why have you picked up on one poster saying that the LL might have the right when he really might have the right, instead of picking up on the posters that say he has no right when they could be wrong?

ReluctantlyBeingYoniMassaged Fri 19-Apr-13 20:56:19

He cannot show people around without your permission.

raspberryroop Fri 19-Apr-13 21:03:33

It doesn't matter what contract the tenant has signed, it cannot overrule the actual legal rights that are set out for tenants in this country. He has no right of entry except for emergencies. The OP has paid her rent till next week its HER house until then with a right top to quiet enjoyment.

The LL is running a business and should allow for some void time between tenants

In any case this isn't the legal forum, this is AIBU. We are being asked for our opinion of what is reasonable. I personally think that the OP is being unreasonable, even if they within their legal rights to be so.

raspberryroop Fri 19-Apr-13 21:07:23

Why ??? Its her house she's paid rent. You don't go to Tescos's and have to share your shopping which is effectively what the landlord is asking her to do/ Op no you ANBU

JudgeJodie Fri 19-Apr-13 21:28:48

Contract law never overrides statutory law and the tenant has the right to refuse quiet enjoyment.
The ll can only go into the house without permission in an emergency such as gas leak or flood, not to show people around.
I certainly wouldn't be taking time off work to wait in or letting anyone come in whilst I wasn't there. Times that suit me I would consider but tbh the week before moving I would have more on my mind than making sure the house looked ok to have strangers in every room.

JudgeJodie Fri 19-Apr-13 21:29:33

refuse entry and have quiet enjoyment

nocake Fri 19-Apr-13 21:31:36

And what is the landlord going to do if they refuse to let him go in? Evict them?

MsVestibule Fri 19-Apr-13 21:34:41

The first I even knew that our rented home was on the market is when a couple knocked on the door! They'd arranged a viewing with the EA for midday and been told that a MsVestibule would show them round shock. The EAs and landlord really couldn't see why I had a problem with this, either.

Sorry, completely unhelpful, just thought I'd share.

Hissy Fri 19-Apr-13 21:35:04

Clouds, erm because I actually do know LL and tenants rights in this regard.

What JudgeJodie said.

OP, try Legal Matters. YOU have ultimate say in who enters.

Google LL right of access, try Landlordzone, this stuff is really basic Tenancy rights stuff.

Derpess Fri 19-Apr-13 21:39:41

Thanks for all the replies, the contract does say we will permit the LL reasonable access in the last 28 days, I don't think it's reasonable if we have to take time off.

Also we gave over 6 weeks notice and he didn't advertise until 4 weeks had passed - he said he had procrastinated in an email now it's all a mad rush! I think we have been reasonable so far, DH took half day this week and I'm going in to work late on Tuesday as one prospective tenant cannot do any other time than 9am on this day.

Anyway, thanks for responses. I'm trying to be fair and balanced so think will mull it over overnight and send him a diplomatic email tomorrow.

And yes, posted here as wanted to know initially WIBU and also as there's more traffic.

Derpess Fri 19-Apr-13 21:42:24

Thanks hissy will also google as you suggested.

Ms vestibule - I'd be fuming if that happened!

mateinthree Fri 19-Apr-13 21:48:46

He just has to give 24 hours notice to enter his property,you cant refuse him it

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Please don't post such misinformed drivel on this subject again.

evansthebread Fri 19-Apr-13 21:56:53

I'm glad you're trying to be fair. There seems to be a lot of "your rights" talk in an aggressive way in some of the posts here.

As a tenant, I wouldn't want anyone wandering around on their own, but as someone who sold a house a while back and couldn't be there for some viewings, I was okay as long as the EA was present - I would never allow someone in completely unattended.

Are you moving to a new home? Did you get viewings at a time you wanted? Your LL is probably anxious to get his property let as soon as possible - who wouldn't be? I'm hoping he'll be as reasonable to you as you're trying to be for him.

Nowt worse than bad karma.

It is correct that he can't insist on access, even with 24hrs notice.

I would write him a letter or an email (best to be formal), making it clear you know your rights and giving him a heads up if he doesn't. Eg:

'Dear LL,

We understand you would like to set up some viewings to the property. Unfortunately, we cannot consent to any viewings while we are not present (as according to the law we have the right to quiet enjoyment of our home, and we would not feel comfortable if we were not there for viewings). We would be happy to set up viewings for times one or other of us is able to be there.

Best,

Tenants'.

That way he knows you know the law and he will check it if he doesn't.

Be bloody sure to take photos at the end of the tenancy though - he can't punish you by evicting you if you're going anyway, but he could be vindictive and try to knock stuff off your deposit. This will be protected so it's not that easy, but photos to show the state of the place will help if he tries anything.

Derpess Fri 19-Apr-13 22:38:49

Evans... Yes we're moving to a bigger place as I'm pregnant with twins. As I said I think we have been really flexible so far and just took umbrage at his attitude.

LRD thanks for the form of words that's really helpful. We meet him here on our last day to go through inventory etc and I thought if he had any issues about the condition he would be obliged to raise it then. Would he be allowed to say afterwards there was an issue and contest the return of our deposit? You have got me thinking anyway and will take photos to be on the safe side.

LimitedEditionLady Fri 19-Apr-13 22:42:00

Well i used to rent and it was 24 hours notice and the point is its his house and theyre leaving anyway so why be so uppity about it? What actual harm is he doing trying to keep rent coming in? My opinion is that it is unreasonable.

Derpess Fri 19-Apr-13 22:52:32

I don't think we're being uppity. Yes we are leaving but until we do all are personal and private possessions are here and I just don't feel comfortable with strangers wandering around without one of us present.

Maybe if he hasn't have delayed advertising the property for 4 weeks it would have been easier to schedule viewings in. If as other posters have said that he really needs to get someone in he would have advertised straight away!

JudgeJodie Fri 19-Apr-13 22:52:59

He owns the house but until the tenant leaves it is her home. And she has the right to quiet enjoyment. Thems the breaks when you rent your property out.
I think op hit the nail on the head though with taking time off work being outside the realms of reasonable access as per her contract. It isn't reasonable! I cherish every day of my annual leave and would be mighty pissed off if I had to use it for showing someone around what will be in a week, someone else's property. That is an imposition on both their home and work life. Ooh no.

limited - no, it wasn't 24 hours notice, it was 24 hours notice if you agreed. That is the law. What your agreement says is irrelevant.

The reason it might matter to the OP is she may not want someone in her home when she's not there. That's not exactly unusual! It's her home.

derpess - no worries. Best of luck.

He's not allowed to contest the deposit just because you exercised your legal right to agree to a time for viewings. He could, however, do something nasty like claiming you had trashed the place, I suppose.

I just always take photos anyhow, as I've never had a LL or LA be dishonest at all but a mate did have one who (completely innocently) didn't realize that the damp patch on the ceiling wasn't her fault but had happened during the two weeks while she'd moved out and the upstairs tenant had flooded her place! So you never know what might happen and what you might need to prove you did.

MummytoKatie Fri 19-Apr-13 23:43:12

The legal position has been given above. Legally you can refuse any or all viewings for any reason whatsoever - including that they clash with Eastenders.

From an AIBU / karma point of view - I think you should do viewings if it is convenient for you. So - no more time off work, not letting him show around without you there. But if you are going to be in anyway (and assuming it isn't an important episode of Eastenders) then it would be a decent thing to do viewings.

LimitedEditionLady Fri 19-Apr-13 23:48:28

Ok i understand now,i thought from mine it meant they could come in with notice but fair enough im wrong about that and i apologise x

SquirrelNuts Fri 19-Apr-13 23:56:25

Derpess YANBU i wouldnt want strangers in my house while im not there! Good luck with your twins!

limited - oh, I thought that for ages too! I was really pissed off when I found out it wasn't true as my LL was a little too fond of poking around my room at the time. It's one of those weird things that you never seem to find out until you realize you've landed the one pervy/nosy LL in town, and then suddenly it matters. grin

frazmum Sat 20-Apr-13 07:33:33

I got on quite well with one LL (or so I thought) so when she had viewings we left the house and let her show the prospective tenants around. It was a furnished property and even included pots, pans, crockery etc. A couple of plates had been chipped and I found the shop nearby where she'd bought them and got them replaced. On checkout she spent ages going through the plates trying to find the chipped ones (so she could charge us) and that's when I realised while we'd been out during viewings she'd been through everything which made me really angry as lots of our personal stuff was obviously in the cupboards too. I didn't say a word about replacing the plates as I was getting too much enjoyment from the puzzled look on her face. As a result I negotiated a lot less being taken off the deposit for damage as she obviously was doubting herself.

I can understand her checking if she'd noticed it, but it would make you feel a bit over-inspected, wouldn't it?! That's quite funny, her reaction. grin

My LL that I had to get fussy with, it was sad really. Her son was the real LL and she was elderly and I think (in retrospect) possibly not coping perfectly. He'd sort of given her this responsibility of looking after the house to keep her busy, I think. She came in every couple of days - it was a big house with separate rooms rented out - and cleaned the kitchen, but she got more and more strict about her ideas of what went where, to the extent that she'd throw away perfectly good, clean cooking equipment if you left it out on a shelf instead of in the cupboard. Naturally it drove me nuts, so eventually I checked up whether she was actually entitled to keep coming and going (and the lettings agent was actually brilliantly helpful).

She was completely shocked and just gasped at me saying 'you want me to give you 24 hours notice every time I come in?'.

I was livid at the time and just felt angry but I saw her a couple of years later in town and she'd got a lot worse, and the penny dropped. sad

Derpess Sat 20-Apr-13 09:48:14

Mummytokatie - agree with you and that is what we had been doing. Asked him to schedule viewings next week for certain times and he then said he'll try but if he can't then basically tough.

I was annoyed at his attitude which is why I asked AIBU to refuse him permission when we aren't here. On reflection overnight and based on some of the responses I don't think this is unreasonable.

I feel disappointed that I am going to be 'laying down the law' but I am equally disappointed that the LL had seemingly disregarded our wishes and said he will do what he likes.

Thanks all for the responses. Very much appreciated.

I think he's trying it on, or doesn't know the law - either one is not good.

I hope you get a good result.

I can see why you're annoyed - it's the high-handed treatment of being told 'tough' that would get to me.

Derpess Sat 20-Apr-13 09:51:24

The stories about other LLs are making me worried about what the new one may be like! Giving me a good idea if my rights though and how to deal with it.

Derpess Sat 20-Apr-13 09:52:22

LRD exactly!

Oh, don't be worried - the vast majority of LLs are going to be decent people, just like the vast majority of tenants. It's just the few in each category who cause the major headaches on both sides.

Btw, the people in Legal can be amazing about knowing exactly what to do about anything like this.

eccentrica Sat 20-Apr-13 10:09:21

I think yabu regardless of the exact legal position. I've viewed hundreds of properties to rent over the years, sometimes the tenant was in, sometimes not. What do you think they are going to do?

raspberryroop Sat 20-Apr-13 11:11:20

Steal things - take look at personal items / paperwork - sniff pants etc how the fuck you can be so naive is beyond me.I had one client who had her identity stolen

OhLori Sat 20-Apr-13 14:19:49

Another vote for "quiet enjoyment". I mean, tenants are people.

I think you've been very reasonable in saying that you're willing to allow viewings whilst one of you is home. He's being completely unreasonable and would not be acting within the law, as others have said.

MousyMouse Sat 20-Apr-13 14:34:43

eccentrica + it could invalidate the contents insurance. at least ours would have.

evansthebread Sat 20-Apr-13 22:08:36

Good luck with the twins OP.

Reading about shitty LLs here does put my back up as it tars all with the same brush. I won't even enter my sister's without knocking and waiting to be let in, and I have NEVER snooped into other people's belongings if I've been left alone anywhere.

I had a friend who stayed with me while my parents were away. After she left, I did a very quick tidy up and stripped the bed and found a huge pile of chocolate wrappers under the bed she'd slept in. I rang her and asked her what they were doing there. She replied that she'd found a secret stash of chocolates in the bottom of my mum's wardrobe! I never asked her to stay again and never left my bag in the same room as her.

How much more disclaimers that not all (or even many) LL are like this would you like, before we can acknowledge that some are?

There are some people who are unpleasant and untrustworthy. Some of them are LL. It's no reflection on the rest.

Derpess Sun 21-Apr-13 19:34:56

Update- sent LL email yesterday saying we don't give him permission to come in when we aren't here and said we are entitled to quiet enjoyment of property etc. also gave list if times he could do his viewings when we would be here.

He replied today saying that's fine thanks- bit of a shift in attitude! Am glad we stood up for ourselves and thanks again for all the advice.

MummytoKatie Sun 21-Apr-13 19:59:25

Presumably he's posted on the landlord version of mumsnet and been told the same as you. (Probably with some stories about rogue tenants who refused any viewings, stopped paying their rent, refused to get out and trashed the place!)

specialsubject Sun 21-Apr-13 20:07:30

the OP suggested the obvious and reasonable compromise and the landlord has agreed. Excellent.

the landlord did get it wrong. However owning a property and renting it out for money does seem to be considered a crime by a lot of people on here.

Oh, that's good to hear. smile

I wonder if maybe he'd not meant to come across quite so all-guns-blazing before? Or maybe he just checked the law and realized. Nice to have a good ending, either way.

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