Secondary school uniform & micro mini skirts - AIBU?

(163 Posts)
Damselion Tue 16-Apr-13 21:12:10

Walking past our local secondary school at home time this afternoon and I was literally gobsmacked at the length of the skin tight micro mini skirts, they came up to the line of their bums & you could literally see one girls crotch, luckily she had tights on.

AIBU to think the teachers should send them home to put a more appropriate skirt on?! I'm starting to feel like an old codger but DD will be starting there soon and I'm just hoping there isn't pressure to be overtly sexual from such a young age, it's makes me kinda sad.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 16-Apr-13 21:16:41

YANBU. It is horrible when girls walk around like this, and it amazes me that parents actually buy those skirts for their daughters.

The school near us had this problem a couple of years ago, so they changed the uniform so that girls have to wear a pleated skirt. They still roll them up so they are often shorter than they should be, but even they realise that there is only so far you can roll a skirt with pleats before it just looks plain stupid.

motherinferior Tue 16-Apr-13 21:19:11

Oh, it's probably DD1's school. They're famous for their bottom-skimming skirts.

I have to say it doesn't really worry me. I'd be a lot more worried if the results nose-dived.

marjproops Tue 16-Apr-13 21:22:17

yanbu. there was a thread recently about the fashion/make up/orange look these days from young people (now I sound like an old crone).

Sparklingbrook Tue 16-Apr-13 21:22:19

At DS's school there is one skirt that is acceptable that has to be bought from the uniform shop. smile I hate seeing really short school skirts.

Sparklingbrook Tue 16-Apr-13 21:22:52

Not that DS wears a skirt obvs. grin

Wannabestepfordwife Tue 16-Apr-13 21:23:01

Yanbu around here the girls also wear very see through leggings with thongs underneath it looks even worse then the whale tail

I saw this outside ds's secondary school this morning. I don't recall it every being this noticeable but it seemed every girl had their skirt rolled up to their knickers.
The school only allow one brand of skirt to be work and that has a contrasting inside lining in school colours so it is immediately obvious if the skirt has been rolled up. But that does not stop the girls from rolling it up on the way to and from school.

snooter Tue 16-Apr-13 21:23:16

A couple of the girls at the local school wear very short skirts with "tights' that are basically stockings with an integral suspender belt & knickers rolled into one, with the suspender belt part clearly visible below the skirt. They look like prostitutes.

sparkling, are out ds's at the same school? smile

motherinferior Tue 16-Apr-13 21:24:36

Back in the 1970s we had perfectly respectable skirts but wore no bra underneath our school blouses

T'was ever thus. And ever will be.

It seems like double standards to want these girls to be pressured into wearing something you feel is appropriate while not wanting your daughter to be influenced by other peoples clothing choices.

Damselion Tue 16-Apr-13 21:26:03

Why do they do it? This may sound patrionising but I just find it so sad, you don't see boys walking to and from school with their tops off or flies undone...

lottieandmia Tue 16-Apr-13 21:26:29

YANBU - I totally agree.

SantanaLopez Tue 16-Apr-13 21:27:59

Wearing a short skirt doesn't make you a slut. You can do some pretty outrageous stuff and still wear a long skirt to school!

Damselion Tue 16-Apr-13 21:28:21

MissyMooandherBeaverofSteel - I don't think they wear them for the comfort factor... I don't want DD to feel she needs to be overtly sexual in order to be attractive or cool.

motherinferior Tue 16-Apr-13 21:28:44

I think one of the reasons they do it is to annoy adults, to be honest.

VeremyJyle Tue 16-Apr-13 21:28:47

We were banned from wearing skintight trousers so looks like the problem goes both ways hmm

motherinferior Tue 16-Apr-13 21:29:36

I got the second-best O levels in my year while braless. Admittedly I didn't get the top results but I don't think the bloke who did was wearing a bra either.

Sparklingbrook Tue 16-Apr-13 21:29:54

Worcestershire Behind?

CabbageLeaves Tue 16-Apr-13 21:29:58

I agree. I drive in a traffic queue and streams of girls walk past flashing their buttocks and thongs. All these old blokes stuck in the queue stare and I reckon if the girls were facing them down in a room they'd shudder. Some how they feel immune walking along

Damselion Tue 16-Apr-13 21:30:38

SantanaLopez - I agree, I don't think it necessarily makes you promiscuous

TheFallenMadonna Tue 16-Apr-13 21:31:31

Girls at my school don't wear skirts. They wear skin tight trousers.

livinginwonderland Tue 16-Apr-13 21:31:54

well, my school uniform was ankle-length skirts. the fashion was to wear them as low as possible, generally so (in a lot of cases) they were so far down the hips that you could see a rather large amount of lower back/occasional bum crack :/

long is not necessarily better!

CabbageLeaves Tue 16-Apr-13 21:32:31

It's not about being a slut or getting crap results? The school I pass is a top selective. My DD went there. It's about being sad that the girls feel compelled to walk half undressed..what reason is that for? Why can the lads be attractive, liberated, intelligent, popular without their bare buttocks on show?

Ah no, Surrey sparkling. But same rule, one specific skirt, from uniform shop. Dd (currently Y5) complaining about that already...

TheFallenMadonna Tue 16-Apr-13 21:32:59

And I do see far more of boy's pants than I would wish really.

Low slung trousers. Very low.

jacks365 Tue 16-Apr-13 21:33:17

Dd2 school has a rule that skirt must touch the floor if they are knelt ie low knee length. Dd3 school rule is 10cm above or below knee and i think one or two girls mistake inches and cm they are so short.

Don't think sending them home is the answer though as they would then do it on purpose, isolation might work though.

marriedinwhiteagain Tue 16-Apr-13 21:34:04

hmm. well when dd went to a comp (briefly) I rather thought the girls would have been better served by a rigorous attitude to things like: disruption, intimidation, assault, theft, etc., rather than the petty obsession with short skirts and the odd pretty necklace. I supposed it was easier to discipline a nice girl for a too short skirt than a dysfunctional little shit who threatened people.

HollyBerryBush Tue 16-Apr-13 21:34:29

Hardly a new thing is it? in the 60's they all had minge skimming skirts.

SantanaLopez Tue 16-Apr-13 21:35:42

Wearing a mini skirt does not make you 'attractive, liberated, intelligent, popular'. It's such a red herring.

Startail Tue 16-Apr-13 21:39:29

YANBU that school skirts shouldn't be indecent but.....
I'm furious that, in tightening up the rules school have declared DD1's perfectly decent one too short.

It's a waste of my money and the planets resources replacing perfectly wearable uniform. (DD isn't into fashion, DH says her skirt is no shorter than women at work wear and his is not the sort of business where tarty clothes would be appreciated).

blondefriend Tue 16-Apr-13 21:41:11

My school definitely has boys showing their underwear as much as the girls wear short skirts. I'm constantly telling them to pull up their trousers as I don't need to see the pants their mummy bought them for Christmas. It's a fashion, not one I like, but teenagers will always do it. I expect most of them would have a giggle at the "oldies" and their judgments.

Startail Tue 16-Apr-13 21:43:39

Also as well as stressing about skirt length DD1 wishes they'd stop obsessing about correct shoes and Ties

She says they got five minutes extra teaching a lesson on Red Nose Day!

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Tue 16-Apr-13 21:46:07

What's needed are full length mirrors at the school - everywhere. If the girls who wear their skirts rolled up could actually see what some of them really look like, they wouldn't do it. It's really unattractive.

Ditto the trousers-fallen-down crew.

x2boys Tue 16-Apr-13 21:49:42

i take my ds aged six on the bus to school so there are several secondary school aged kids from various local schools we see do the girls not realise that if you have a lovely figure you can get away with it but i have seen some rather fat teenage girls with roled up skirts[i,m a fat bird] they look ridiculous tbh i cant seem to remember this being an issue when i was at school rolled down socks however and permed hair stuck on the top of your head witha can of hairspray keeping it in place were de rigeur sp?

Sparklingbrook Tue 16-Apr-13 21:52:15

I never wore a minge skimming school skirt. <deprived>

jamdonut Tue 16-Apr-13 21:53:44

Girls are not allowed skirts above the knee or skintight trousers at my DC's school. That's an instant send home.But the majority of the girls wear trousers. Oh, and black shoes which must not be trainers or have flashes of colour anywhere,and no flat "dolly" shoes!And no fancy headbands or artificial flowers in their hair, or outrageously dyed hair. Even Dip-dyed means a sending home! However, they never seem to say anything about the orange girls. hmm

Jengnr Tue 16-Apr-13 21:54:05

It's how it is. You roll the skirt up at the end of the road and down again at the end on the way home.

Or that's what we did anyway, 20-ishyears ago

Fudgemallowdelight Tue 16-Apr-13 21:56:01

When i was at high school we could wear any navy skirt we liked. I don't remember anyone wearing a mini skirt. Longer skirts seemed to be more fashionable (80s.) I've wondered if now that schools tend to insist on a regulation skirt from the uniform shop, they wear it mini because it is the only way they have left to show off. We could show off by wearing a fashionable skirt. Or maybe it is because i went to an all girls school so there were no boys to impress?

Startail Tue 16-Apr-13 22:01:24

Now if school had a moan about DD2's skirt I wouldn't complain because I strongly suspect she does roll hers up. She was very cross the shop, knowing school had changed the rules, wouldn't sell her a shorter one.

DD2 is never going to be convinced that school isn't the place for fashion, anymore than I can convincer to wear regulation scout trousers.

MNBlackpoolandFylde Tue 16-Apr-13 22:06:52

Its like this at the secondary near us which is a very strict faith school!

we would have been sent home in my day, they aren't rolled up ones they are skin tight ones and look awful!

cardibach Tue 16-Apr-13 22:07:22

YABU to expect the teachers to 'send them home to put a more appropriate skirt on'. surely this is the parents' role? If you had asked AIBU to expect parents to ensure their daughters aren't wearing inappropriate skirts, I would have agreed.

Sparklingbrook Tue 16-Apr-13 22:07:49

DS1 is going on a school trip tomorrow-no uniform. Oh the angst about what to wear. hmm

Dress down days are usually very amusing.

MNBlackpoolandFylde Tue 16-Apr-13 22:10:47

dd embarrassed a boy last week by loudly proclaiming she could see his boxer shorts, he was about 14.

Phineyj Tue 16-Apr-13 22:12:34

We do send them home to put a more appropriate skirt on! Or make them wear something horrible out of the lost property cupboard. But I don't know how we could control what girls wear on the way to and from school... It has definitely got more extreme re tightness (lycra fabrics don't help) -- I was sitting in reception one day and was treated to the sight of a girl's pants as she was walking down the staircase...ugh...

elQuintoConyo Tue 16-Apr-13 22:18:38

I sure as hell did this and I left school in '91 with more A-levels than I had skirt-inches! I liked my legs, thought I looked cooool and sexy and liked pissing off the teachers (strict boarding school).

ParadiseChick Tue 16-Apr-13 22:20:45

I think it's more concerning that it's you making the sexual links. It's a piece of fabric, it's got nothing to do with sex, the girls are just wearing it - it's you that's deciding there's something sexual involved.

malinois Tue 16-Apr-13 22:36:18

But we MUST have uniforms! Otherwise schoolchildren will start dressing like this or, the HORROR! this

Theas18 Tue 16-Apr-13 22:39:53

Meh that's life!

Dd2 rolls her skirt up - says she can't walk properly otherwise as the "kick pleat" is tiny. I'd rather she didn't but it comes under the " don't sweat the small stuff". Interestingly the local comp girls with the really short skirts I encounter via work often wear cycle shorts under them...

My neice is at international school in Spain. They have the answer - a skort in summer and foul bottle green tartan culottes for winter -ok not tartan for a uk state school , but you try rolling up culottes - you can't go far lol

feelokaboutit Tue 16-Apr-13 22:43:07

My son is starting secondary school in september and both girls and boys wear trousers.... It's quite an unattractive uniform (though not as unattractive as when everyone obligatorily wore tracksuit bottoms,which have now been changed to trousers) though I like the fact that it is based on comfort. They are very specific on what type of trousers as well, and these can only be purchased from a particular shop confused.

I have to say that YANBU OP, and having two daughters (now in Year 2 and 4) who will later follow ds to his secondary school, I am glad that the whole sexing up of the uniform has been taken out of the equation at this school, as believe me, I can see NO WAY that it could be done:

www.qpcs.brent.sch.uk/index.php?i=33

mrsjay Tue 16-Apr-13 22:43:31

they are like those stretchy belts we wore in the 80s grin I guess if they are wearing them with tights your not seeing anything and these girls didnt invent mini skirts you know and girls have been altering school uniform for decades , dd1 wore 1 with thick tights when she was in 5/6 year <shrug> it is just a skirt although I do think they are short for school but the school must not say a length for their skirts

MagratOfStolat Tue 16-Apr-13 22:51:20

HAHA!

Send them to my old school! I left 6 years ago and it still haunts me. The Headmistress ruled with a fist so ironclad she made Margaret Thatcher look like a fluffy Easter bunny.

After the morning assembly and prayer (because it was Roman Catholic) she'd line up all the girls and have them kneel. If the skirt then didn't cover the knee, the girl would be pulled aside, had their parents contacted, and had to wear a skirt from "Grubby Arse", which was a great big box filled with old bits of clothing, so named because a boy once had to wear some trousers from it that had blatantly been shat in at some point.

I hated that school.

thebody Tue 16-Apr-13 23:02:17

Rolled up my skirts in the 80s and dds wear minus or skin right trousers.

It's what teens do. They like to annoy adults and look older.

It was ever thus.

Please can we not call schoolgirls 'sluts' or 'looking like prostitutes' though. That is really nasty.

Sparklingbrook Tue 16-Apr-13 23:04:37

I do think some of them look like a naughty schoolgirl kissogram though, or Britney Spears in that video.

andubelievedthat Tue 16-Apr-13 23:15:51

And doesn"t every generation find their own way to upset the boring safe "you just don"t understand" old people (me,most likely) at my school (70"s) it was , although this is sooo tame ,dying the front part of your hair blond whilst having a "ziggy" hairstyle, and ,having a huge tie knot ! told you it was tame ,but the hell from the teachers ,well that was fun,but then they could hit you with a lochgellie tawse if they thought you were "taking the piss" , how i loved those perv sadistic teachers ! i pissed them of by getting great grades,ha !

Startail Tue 16-Apr-13 23:17:11

Malinoise hits the nail on the head.

If you abolished uniform, soon the novelty would wear off and the DCs would just wear hoddies and jeans.

Local six formers at non uniform schools and collages look nice, the skirts at the only one with uniform are incredibly short and the jumpers unspeakably tatty (they don't have to use the uniform shop. I suspect Primark. They look awful).

Happymum22 Tue 16-Apr-13 23:26:04

DDs' school went through a phase of very short skirts, they also wear knee high socks to make the look even sexier better.
I think they had a crack down on it which did work apart from the usual rebellious girls. The crack down included making them all use rucksacks to my three DDs horror! That is more relaxed now though.

I was never that bothered, sometimes even thought excessive uniform rules and time wasting was pointless when the uniform never looked that bad.

I didn't go out and buy short skirts, equally didn't buy knee length things as I knew DDs would never wear them and roll them up even more! DDs all had the regulation school skirt and I knew it was long enough even with one 'roll'. If DDs chose to roll it up out of my sight, that was their choice to walk around her (all girls) school showing off her thighs and feeling cool. It was all to fit in and completely normal for teenage girls to want to do. They grow out of it.
By sixth form I am glad to say they start commenting how disgusting it looks when walking behind year 10 and 11 girls with rolled up skirts showing their knickers.

MammaTJ Tue 16-Apr-13 23:27:29

I did the same when I was at school, when I actually went that is.

Lessthanaballpark Tue 16-Apr-13 23:58:02

It's not the fault of schoolgirls that their uniform has been colonised by pornland.

They're just trying to be fashionable the same way the boxer short boys are. Cept no one accuses them of looking like sluts.

GibberTheMonkey Wed 17-Apr-13 00:25:19

Never understood it even when I was at school
School uniform looks foul. Rolled up skirts look like foul rolled up skirts
So big fail if they want to look sexier

And if its an act of rebellion then they are mere amateurs.

All a bit pointless

Startail Wed 17-Apr-13 01:19:05

most pointless of all is that intelligent HTs get into a battle the DCs will always win.

Yes I know private girls schools with kilts and no ties where generally the pupils look smart, but even there they can't stop the girls growing and the skirts getting shorter.

At your average state school uniform is always going to be a total loosing battle.

My uniform was perfect, I never did up my top button, but I tied neat big knots. My coat, was however, bright pink.

On one school trip the HT ended up handing coats out of a great heap. Everyone else he waited to come up, mine he handed me with a look of utter disgust. By this point he'd probably been itching to tell me off for 4 years. It was a relatively poor rural area with no big shops, he knew that certain demands were not worth it.

piprabbit Wed 17-Apr-13 01:31:41

All school uniform should consist of trousers or, at a push, culottes/long shorts. Same uniform rules for girls and boys.

JollyJumpingJelly Wed 17-Apr-13 01:39:18

Most likely half the reason they're.doing it is because of being told 'skirts must be no shorter than this'. it's just part of teenage rebellion and wanting to make independent choices.
I don't think it's a problem really, anymore than what they choose to wear shopping or to a party is.

hopipolla Wed 17-Apr-13 02:14:42

YANBU if schools sent them home and didn't let them back until they were dressed appropriately it would soon stop.

Morloth Wed 17-Apr-13 02:48:39

Ah I remember the days when I would roll my skirt right up and unbutton my shirt and get yelled at. The getting yelled at was the point.

Here is the thing, they are children they are doing it to get a reaction. So you give them a reaction and it is like reinforcing a toddler's tantrum.

So you smile indulgently at them, tell them not to worry, they will grow out of it.

They don't look like 'sluts' or 'prostitutes' they look like teenage girls trying to get a reaction from the grown ups around them.

sashh Wed 17-Apr-13 04:13:22

MissyMooandherBeaverofSteel - I don't think they wear them for the comfort factor... I don't want DD to feel she needs to be overtly sexual in order to be attractive or cool.

You are entirely missing the point. It is teenage rebellion. Just inside the door a teacher will be making them unroll their skirts, put their ties straight etc.

I was in highschool early 80s when skirts were generally mid calf, ours had to be 'knee length' so we would see how long we could get away with. Or have a frilly underskirt hang down a bit lower.

My DDs kilt is supposed to sit on her knee.
It does in fact sit just below her knee when she leaves the house.
I very much doubt it stays like that, judging by the girls I have seen walking home.

What the school have done however is ban over the knee socks and stockings. If any of the girls turn up in those, they are immediatley given a new pair of white ankle socks to wear. So the tiny skirt/over knee sock combo has stopped.

But I do not think the school should be spending all this time chasing students and actually sending them home over a few inches of skirt tbh.

I see more underwear at ds1 school as the boys wear their trousers so low on their hips, you can see more boxer shorts than necessary.
The teachers are forever telling them to pull up their trousers or buy a belt.
Do they listen? No.
Also their tie has to have 7 stripes. The most amazing waste of time award goes to ds1 form teacher who spends morning form counting the stripes on everyone's tie and making them change it to 7.
I understand that is the rules, but honestly? Will it change the way they learn if the tie only has 6 stripes?

TheFallenNinja Wed 17-Apr-13 06:18:12

Amen Freddie.

My personal view on school uniform is coverage from ankle to neck. But I don't suppose for one minute that it wouldn't pass without a major battle. smile

But these aren't rolled up uniform skirts, they are tiny little Lycra belt like things that often show buttock! I find this trend (see the tiny shorts they wear too) to be quite creepy tbh. I was in the supermarket and saw a teenage girl with her mum, the shorts were so small and tight you could see half her buttocks and the outline of her vulva. It bothers me that very young women are dressing like this and especially at school. I know 'it was ever thus' but although we rolled our skirts at school nobody's buttocks were visible!

exoticfruits Wed 17-Apr-13 07:09:46

It has always been the same and probably always will. We were not allowed short skirts at school and we had them the correct length when we had to and rolled them up when out if sight.
It is what teenagers do.

Morloth Wed 17-Apr-13 07:20:59

Speak for yourself Ehric I used to have a pair of cutoffs so short a good inch of the pocket lining was visible. Mum used to go mental, so I would wear them under something else and then as soon as I was out of sight take the something else off. Thus getting one over on my Mum wink (as if).

I was a teenager in the late 80s early 90s.

We had neon lycra belts skirts and those slouchy t-shirts where you could pretty much have a boob out if you really tried.

Ninja you could get them to go neck to ankle if you told them that under no circumstances were they do to so.

They are just kids being kids. The problem is the adult perception.

Our school skirts were standard from school shop, reasonable length. Then school taught us dressmaking and was surprised when we took them up (no rolls) and wore the same skirt for the five years. By the time I was in Y11 they'd had a complaint from a significant visitor that he hadn't known where to look on the stairs, and they moved to pleats. Which the girls still rolled up.

Fashion goes by school. We wore ours with ludicrously baggy jumpers. School is regularly top ten nationally for results.

fluffyraggies Wed 17-Apr-13 07:32:59

It is what teenagers do, and it has always been the way it is ... but no one can deny that that things are more extreme these days and the line is getting pushed further and further.

Late 80s i did mini skirts/rolling up of skirts at school. No way on earth any girls would have done the stocking and suspender thing back then though, or had their arse cheeks hanging out. No one would have had a problem in loudly saying that is an overtly sexual way to dress and totally inappropriate.

It makes me wonder where there is left for kids to go, with regards to 'rebellious' clothes now we've got as far as stockings and suspenders with micro minis at school. What's next - peep hole bras with the shirt undone? Will that be laughed off as liberation and rebellion when the time comes?

I find it worrying. This overt sexualisation of women/young girls doesn't feel like liberation or rebellion to me.

fairylightsinthespring Wed 17-Apr-13 07:47:52

YANBU to hate it but can you imagine the post 'My daughter had to miss a day of school because of her skirt FFS!" As others have said, schools can and do impose rules whilst at school but its very hard to anything about what they do to and from (though my school has senior staff up town at lunchtime on patrol). Depends on what kind of relationship the school has with the parents over whether they can impose a particular skirt to be bought and the action they can take if that is not adhered to.

alwaysinhiding Wed 17-Apr-13 11:52:03

I only left school 10 years ago and skirts were rolled up but so they were above knee! Most girls wore trousers though, I think it looks vile the way they are worn now, personally think it should be trousers and sweaters for both sexes.

The naughty kiss-o-gram school girls shouldn't exist, rather than the condemnation of teenagers pushing boundaries, though. Some people are looking at this the wrong way round. No man should look at a underage girl in uniform, or a bikini and stare enough to be sexually aroused. Stockings are rebellious, as in a rock chick look way, rather than porn, from my POV, so again not always sexual. However, my DD was one to push the boundaries, way to far, I switch her school and she greatly benefited from being forced to dress appropriately and the tougher discipline. So I think that it is a shame that some schools aren't tougher in "deprived areas", they are underselling their pupils. I don't agree with the total "no make up rule", if we are preparing teens for the adult world, then some of the rules don't make sense. I think that I lot of people give incorrect values to Teen behaviour.

malinois Wed 17-Apr-13 13:09:24

fluffyraggies hate to shock you but at my school, late 80s, stockings+suspenders with a calf length side-split skirt were de rigeur in the sixth form. The changing rooms for games looked like a scene from the Benny Hill show.

BanjoPlayingTiger Wed 17-Apr-13 13:13:44

At my school we all wore ankle length skirts. I was in my hometown recently and noticed that several of the girls still do - though it does appear that most of them wear trousers which we weren't allowed to back then.

girlwhowearsglasses Wed 17-Apr-13 13:18:29

I don't agree with uniform!

Perhaps as they have to wear uniform they are using any means possible to subvert it. Betcha they would be in jeans if no uniform and more time could be spent sorting out real discipline issues

I know its a long running debate - and I know all the arguments for it, but I went to a school without uniform and we mostly wore jeans. Some people obviously took some time to 'explore their individuality', but that's a learning process and I think good to do at school age as much as any other time...

awaits flames

cathpip Wed 17-Apr-13 13:38:05

One of my local secondary schools has a no skirt rule, every pupil has to wear trousers all due to girls rolling their skirts up. The trousers also have to be one of a choice of two from the uniform shop!!

LaQueen Wed 17-Apr-13 13:43:48

YANBU.

I hate to see this.

However...the girls at our local girls grammar (which has seriously impressive results) have been known to hitch their skirts up very high, on their way to/from school (in school they have to be the regulation length, or they're sent home).

So, length of skirt isn't necessarily indicative of academic achievement smile

If I were in charge of a school I wouldn't ban makeup but I would ban foundation. Utterly unnecessary for teenagers (causes, not covers, spots) and just too TOWIE inexpertly applied.

Spider lashes? Meh, if you like.

Startail Wed 17-Apr-13 13:46:42

Girlwhowearsglasses I agree totally, but given your user name I'd have to.

DD1 is totally pissed off at lining up outside the door and wasting 5 minutes at the beginning of every lesson checking ties, shoes and skirt lengths (since no doubt they are actually judging the legs too, I've never met a man who doesn't.)

Also it's totally arbitrary, DD1's skirt is too short, not fashion she's grown. Strangely teenage girls do.

No one has given a monkeys for two years, but suddenly on particular teacher decides he has to say something. Why because its the same length as her class mates, who hates his subject and no doubt has annoyed him. Therefore, they both get moaned at.

The result is he's mildly irritated his best scientist and added another tick to the do A levels somewhere without uniform column and confirm he is a pratt to her class mate.

JenaiMorris Wed 17-Apr-13 13:48:53

Some people seem to move from young childhood straight to a stereotypically dull middle age.

And "overtly sexual" ffs. Really?

Lucylloyd13 Wed 17-Apr-13 14:01:59

Young women shortening school skirts- well I never!

it has always happened, and always will, girls will be girls. the only solution is trousers. (And watch leggings appear!)

motherinferior Wed 17-Apr-13 14:44:00

I loathe uniform too.

JenaiMorris Wed 17-Apr-13 14:56:03

They should all wear knickerbockers. Boys AND girls.

aPseudonymToFoolHim Wed 17-Apr-13 19:20:14

I've become an old gimmer since DD started secondary school in September (actually it set in WAY before that, being hmm at girls showing their arses on the way to school.)

When DD went for her uniform fitting, I was horrified at the length of skirt - it's a special one designed just for this school, with a flat panel over the stomach, a ribbon then pleats. I made her get the next size up for extra length, but as she walked out of the changing room, the whole thing fell down around her ankles! So she has the shorter one (and has bloody well shot up since Sept too) which, if she doesn't wear tights, shows most of her arse (pretty sure the lads' hang out will be at the foot of any staircase in that school!)

But that's the uniform!

specialsubject Wed 17-Apr-13 19:27:30

girls have been doing that for years - or the sheep-like ones have, anyway. There may be a few who want to look different but they are rare.

they will hopefully grow up with minds of their own. Just pass it off as the dumb teen thing - we all had some manifestation of it.

orangepudding Wed 17-Apr-13 19:42:02

DD's school skirt comes in just two lengths, the larger sizes are 2 inches longer than the smaller sizes.
DD is in year 7, one of the shortest - the skirts sits mid knee.
I used to think the older girls rolled the skirts, many don't need too - if you have long legs and are tall the skirt will look tiny! Also if the girls are wide then they are lucky if they cover their bum once they have hoiked them up below the bust if they are too small to fit on the waist.

LaQueen Thu 18-Apr-13 10:55:07

At our GS, there are plans afoot to change the skirt into a kilt - so it will look bleddy ridiculous if the girls try and roll it up shorter smile

Blissx Thu 18-Apr-13 11:16:32

AIBU to think the teachers should send them home to put a more appropriate skirt on?!

I just picked up on this comment. Why is it always the teachers' fault not the parents who buy/let them leave the house with these skirts or the actual teens in question? How do you know the teens don't just hoik their skirts up on their way to /from school or just when they think someone isn't looking? I'm not naive enough to think that some teens do get away with this in schools, however, I don't like the sweeping assumption it is the teachers letting them down.

Jins Thu 18-Apr-13 11:28:28

They all settle down when they get to sixth form and can wear their own clothes instead of some stupid outfit that the governors approved.

I was the same at this age. Except it was all long length skirts and granny boots then and we got told off for having our skirts too long

Miggsie Thu 18-Apr-13 11:45:35

I get taxis to work.
One driver, if we went past any group of girls dressed like this would immediately look at them and not the road right until they were out of eyeshot - youc ould see his head starting to swivel the minute girls came into view, we nearly had an accident twice. I don't use that driver any more.

Quite a lot of road accidents are caused by blokes eyeing up scantily dressed girls and women on the pavement rather than concentrating on the road - as I get a lot of taxis I can tell you now some blokes ALWAYS look - so even if you think the short skirt is ok - it is sending some sort of signal to hypnotise/distract men - at least based on my taxi driver observations.

At DD's school continual flouting of the dress code gets you expelled.

Also, I hear that the girls form a certain very posh, very selective London girls school are known by the local school boys as "the whores on the hill" - don't think I'd want my DD falling into that category. My friend drops his boy off at the school next door and he says it looks like a casting call for a porn film when the girls go in.

quoteunquote Thu 18-Apr-13 11:59:10

At our local school nearly all the girls wore jeans, and trousers,and flat shoes then they introduced uniform, now most of them wear micro skirts and really inappropriate shoes,

they are meant to be a certain length, but as my friend's daughter found out, after continually called a "Nun" and more abusive comments, if you don't rase the hem you get bullied,

School uniform is creepy, controlling and damaging.

motherinferior Thu 18-Apr-13 12:01:52

IME teenage boys will always find nasty things to say about girls they find a bit threatening; if it's not whores it'll be nuns. (I myself fell into the 'hideous and unshaggable' category grin.) I'm not really going to adjust my daughters' clothing on that basis.

sweetkitty Thu 18-Apr-13 12:02:19

LaQueen I'm afraid to say that even if the skirt is a kilt there are still micro mini versions.

Around here I think the idea is to have your skirt so short it's hidden by your blazer so you look as though your not wearing one and you have that attractive thigh gusset of tights showing

quoteunquote Thu 18-Apr-13 12:05:46

motherinferior

sorry, it is mainly girls who are doing the name calling, which is not good.

CruCru Thu 18-Apr-13 12:07:36

This is part of the reason I don't like uniform. Unless things like skirt length are enforced, it just looks tacky.

motherinferior Thu 18-Apr-13 12:10:40

No, that was to Miggsie about the 'whores on the hill'. Like you, I hate uniform. Let them all wear jeans, that's what I say.

Branleuse Thu 18-Apr-13 12:11:28

if you have a school uniform, then kids will do whatever they can to personalise their look their own way.

When the length of a girls skirt starts interfering with her grades, then ill be bothered

Boiler suits for all. It's the only way. Preferably bright orange ones like in 'Holes', with a massive school logo printed on the back.

mrsjay Thu 18-Apr-13 13:01:32

Exactly branleuse dd puts badges on her blazer it is her tiny attempt at rebellion and tbh it is just a skirt

LaQueen Thu 18-Apr-13 13:59:34

Sweet

I think the new kilt at our GS will only be available through the school and will be a regulation (deeply unflattering) just below knee length grin

sweetkitty Thu 18-Apr-13 15:29:07

LaQueen - I believe this is the situation at the local school too, maybe you buy a skirt in first year and it lasts you 6 years.

I must admit when I see the girls tottering past, micro minis, high heels, tights and blazer my first thought is that they must be freezing.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 18-Apr-13 15:33:58

no-one's worn skirts much at our local since bodycons were banned - but now that skater skirts are in vogue, girls are starting to wear those - I think they look quite nice, but I may be in a minority!

Jins Thu 18-Apr-13 15:44:57

Kilts are easdy enough to roll up but you need to stitch the pleats down first smile

Leonas Thu 18-Apr-13 20:03:00

We have been trying to enforce a stricter uniform policy at my school for the last year but it is virtually impossible - we, as a staff, are horrified at what some of the pupils wear but the parents buy the uniforms and if they are happy with it, sending the pupils home is pointless. More shocking is what the girls wear to school discos/ dances - I dread having a teenage girl!

BrianButterfield Thu 18-Apr-13 20:11:04

Can I just say that there is no way male teachers are checking out girls' legs when they check skirt lengths? Well, I suppose anything's possible but believe me it's very far from the mind of my colleagues and DH when they have to check uniform. Most men do not in fact 'check out' children's legs hmm

ruthyroo Fri 19-Apr-13 05:32:41

No uniforms here in France, and 99% of the students wear some variation on jeans and hoodies - low slung for boys and tight for girls. Only very very rarely do I see any micro minis here etc and we live next door to a lycée so there are plenty young people around. When I was last back in the UK I happened to get stuck in traffic outside my old secondary school and was taken aback by the teeny tiny skirts and other variations on school uniform. Looks dreadful IMHO so YANBU I think.

cory Fri 19-Apr-13 07:35:36

Don't let's forget that perceptions of what is an overly sexual way to dress change over time and place.

When Laura Ingalls' mother combed her hair back behind her ears in the early 1800s she was called to the front of the class and shamed as a slut. At the same time a girl going stark naked in Central Africa would not have sent any sexual messages whatsoever.

I think it is a fair bet that those of my generation who wore shortish school skirts and no bras in the 70s gave the same impression of over-sexualisation to the older generation as the exposed bum cheeks do to the older generation now. From what I remember taxi drivers were distracted and wolf whistled then. And mothers were horrified by the over-sexualisation of young girls.

But you were young then and didn't care.

What about the fact they wear thin white shirts that are see through. You can see their bras

Much more worrying

mrsjay Fri 19-Apr-13 09:30:16

kirts are in vogue, girls are starting to wear those - I think they look quite nice, but I may be in a minority!

dd2 wears those anyway she does wear trousers to school but she might like to wear a skater skirt as a school skirt, she doesn't like or want to wear the teeny tiny belts skirts the other girls wear

mrsjay Fri 19-Apr-13 09:32:01

why would a male teacher check out a girls legs that is horrible male teachers see these girls as children and not somebody to 'check out'

I don't buy the idea that schoolchildren will always subvert the uniform. On my way to work here in NZ I pass pupils of two schools. Both are high-performing schools with similar demographics, whose pupils are up to 18 years of age. Hemlines at School A, a state co-ed high school are frequently mid-thigh and sometimes above. Hemlins at School B, which is Roman Catholic and girls only, are rigorously on the knee and never above. I understand that School B is strict about uniform policy, encourages parents to be the same, and appears to be absolutely successful in this: if their pupils aren't showing off leg on their way to school, they certainly won't be in the school itself.

Haven't noticed black bras under white blouses because a) I don't stare and b) don't want to crash into a lamppost.

In my (UK) school back in the 80s, everyone tied their ties thin side out. I remember how outraged I felt when the school announced during one assembly that the practice was no longer to be tolerated. Oddly enough, wearing white socks had by that time been punishable by detention without warning.

hannah45 Thu 09-May-13 21:52:59

At my school us girls wear no skirts or trousers we just go bottomless.

youmaycallmeSSP Thu 09-May-13 22:19:46

Ah YABU. It looks dreadful but I don't see any big deal. The boys at the secondary school on my road think they are being so cool and rebellious when they cycle their BMXs up the hill with no hands, holding up all traffic. Teenagers have always done and always will do stupid things and proper grown ups will always be horrified and/or laugh at them.

FWIW I wore the same skirt from year 7 (11 years old) to year 11 (16 years old). I was bought new uniform every year but I liked my year 7 skirt. Obviously I grew in height and width so I ended up with the waistband at about the same level as my bra. Such a classy look.

Triumphoveradversity Thu 09-May-13 22:28:42

At DS secondary school almost all the girls, about 95% wear trousers.

BabyMakesTheBoobiesGoLeaky Fri 10-May-13 14:12:13

Don't worry Hannah when I drop you off at school I'm not wearing any bottoms either.

Love,Mum x

icklemssunshine1 Fri 10-May-13 15:57:17

I'm a teacher and sadly this is how most teenage girls dress but you're forgetting the fluorescent coloured bra under the shirt. I one girl whose shirt was extremely tight, buttoned low down to see most of her bra to put her blazer on as I didn't want it see her underwear. I had a complaint from a parent saying I embarrasses her daughter! Our deputy tried to instill a rule of skirt length but was basically told to get stuffed by the parents as they said they'd paid for the skirt and weren't going to buy new ones. It's not just the girls, the boys wear their trousers below the bum so everyone can see their neon boxers. I really don't like it.

icklemssunshine1 Fri 10-May-13 15:58:04

Sorry for all the typos - bloody iPhone!

shewhowines Fri 10-May-13 17:24:20

At my old school the uniform rule was "flared trousers should be no wider than 15" old gimmer

loofet Fri 10-May-13 19:07:06

Ahh this is nothing new! Even my old mum did this, she told me how her and her mates would leave for school in a mid calf length skirt and hitch it right up on their way to school. I always wore a short skirt to school too with Dr Martens grin

FWIW I wasn't a filthy slut, I've just always suited skirts/dresses way more than pants and I had the figure for a short one then envy so why not? I wasn't hurting anyone. Other girls wore skin tight pants, is that somehow less offensive? May I remind you it is a free country and all that wink

When I started high school the fashion was lycra mini skirt with a hugely oversized jumper. Then skin tight lycra pants, like disco pants. Then the school banned anything skin tight and stated trousers must be loose fitting so we switched to black linen trousers. Take that rules!

b4bunnies Fri 10-May-13 19:57:21

motherinferior - what do you mean? my skirts were short and i had no bra...grin

the micro-mini skirts are shocking enough - but at least most of the people who wear them look neat, tidy, and quite nice - just too much leg showing.

its the tights-masquerading-as leggings that get me. they look ridiculous and indecent.

oh, and the boys in their bum-out trousers. hmm

Startail Fri 10-May-13 20:05:06

There are far more important things to worry about.

DDs school wastes everyone's time and my money (just bought DD1 a longer skirt to keep one prat of a teacher happy), fussing about skirt length.

DD2 still rolls hers shorter as soon as she gets to school, DD1 still puts her old one on (scantiness rather than rebellion).

The girls who refuse to wear reasonable length skirts are wearing skinny jeans and leggings which look far worse than the short skirts (school skirts are at least lined against VPL)

The sixth form who are allowed black skirts wear the stretch belts and look like they should be standing on dodgy street corners.

Honestly they all looked better before school said anything, at least we had normal school trousers on 60% of the girls.

Floggingmolly Fri 10-May-13 21:02:37

At dd's school they have unannounced inspections every so often; anyone not wearing the correct length is sent home.
When I was at school (all girls's convent!) we had to kneel on the floor; any hem not touching the floor was deemed too short and a monstrously large specimen was produced from the head nun's cupboard to be worn all day.
There were few repeat offenders smile

shebangsthedrum Fri 10-May-13 21:30:49

On a serious note our school has banned skirts for the rolling up reason as the male teachers seriously objected to standing in front of a class of knicker flashers it is embarassing for them and if it was mentioned they were accused of being pervs and they should not be looking. Really unfair on the poor blokes.

snoworneahva Fri 10-May-13 21:42:59

I think they should all wear trousers!

Helpyourself Fri 10-May-13 21:45:01

Mother of a short skirt wearer here.
Meh. I can't get too worked up about it. I'd rather dd first dealt with unwanted male attention in the daylight and with friends. The extrapolation of expecting women to not dress attractively so that they don't tempt men. hmm

Helpyourself Fri 10-May-13 21:47:55

Sorry I taled off there...
I was thinking of a school with a large proportion of boys from a notoriously chauvinistic ethnic background, where the girls chose not to wear skirts or makeup as they were then seen as fair game. sad

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs Fri 10-May-13 22:13:32

Even kilts aren't immune to being shortened. At my DD's school, they swapped to a knee length tartan kilt for precisely this reason.

The girls that used to wear a mini just wear it literally under their boobs, with the shirt tucked in, and 'fluffed' over the top of it.

It looks efkin daft, but it makes the skirts shorter.

I'm so glad DD eschews all that and only wants trousers...

marriedinwhiteagain Fri 10-May-13 22:25:16

Frankly I don't care about the length of skirts or the colour of hair. What I care about are promises about high standards of behaviour that aren't delivered and when the school is adamant standards are high in spite of episodes of: theft, intimidation, assault, pyromania; in spite of the fact that a school drops from the top 100 to 132 because results are being allowed to deteriorate; when the school asks for a 200% increase in the maintenance grant but doesn't communicate, is allowing standards to deteriorate and appears to play lipservice to parents; when parent governor meetings no longer take place because the statutory requirement to communicate has been removed by government - so what - a good school, an outstanding school would continue to communicate.

Short skirts - PAH!! PRIORITIES.

TARDEN Tue 14-May-13 20:07:06

I do think there is a cultural change going on. At the school here in Belfast that our daughters have and are still attending they recently changed the skirt style to a much longer one. Well below the knee whereas in the past they were barely just below the blazer level. Anybody who is from NI will know that a lot of schools here had this problem for many years. I know when the daughters school went to any school event in the Republic they were met with shocked looks over their skirt lengths compared to those down there. Micro skirts versus ankle length kilts. But it now seems to be on the way out because the schools have made the decision to actually enforce the rules and insist on a skirt style that is fit for purpose. The old plain style skirt was too easy to roll up or have the hem adjusted, the new style skirts which are much longer have multiple pleats which when rolled up look hideous. Thankfully!!

hannah45 Thu 23-May-13 21:59:10

At my school, us girls wear our skirts as bras and nothing else. The public don't mind.

AudrinaAdare Thu 23-May-13 22:28:26

At DD's new naice school they have reacted to the inappropriate skirts available in supermarkets by insisting that the girls wear the same "school-approved" style from the suppliers.

Unfortunately they have a lot of elastic in the waist so the girls get them two sizes too small and voilà - a loincloth. Gotta admire the resourcefulness of teenagers grin

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 23-May-13 23:45:44

I think its quite sad that people think children shouldn't wear skirts what ever length they want to or over the knee socks because people view it as sexualised dress just because some perverted fantasy pedophiles have claimed that look in porn mags like barely legal.

There is nothing sexual about a child no matter what they are wearing or how high the hem on the skirt is.

There is also something very strange about anyone who gets sexual gratification from looking at people pretending to be school children.

chandellina Fri 24-May-13 06:57:15

Of course children can look sexual. That is why people get upset when young girls wear makeup and thongs. It's not just dirty imagination at work.

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 24-May-13 09:34:14

People get upset about make up and stuff because its something normally done by adults to 'improve' how they look. It does not look sexual on a child.

Children wearing make up and short skirts look like children trying to look older. Its why girls dressed like that with make up on tend to get asked for ID more than ones who don't when trying to buy age restricted products.

They don't look sexual.

soverylucky Fri 24-May-13 09:52:46

I think that some school skirts are too short. If you can't bend over without showing your pants it is too short. How can school enforce uniform when parents won't support the dress code? When you go into the workplace there is often a dress code and young people who are sometimes just weeks away from entering the workforce need to realise that sometimes we don't get to wear what we want.

LaQueen Fri 24-May-13 10:18:33

I'm constanty shock at the length (or lack of) of the skirts at our local comprehensive. The girls must roll them up.

I've also noticed the short skirts at our local girls' grammar, and plans are afoot to change the skirt into a pleated kilt so it will look ridiculously stupid if rolled up (once inside school skirts are quickly rolled back down, otherwise penalties are harsh).

But, although I don't like it, so long as the results at the girls' GS remain excellent, then I don't suppose it matters what length the skirts are?

Floggingmolly Fri 24-May-13 10:51:41

Well yes, SockReturningPixie hmm. That's hardly news to anyone, but there are a scarily large amount of weirdos out there.
That's not news either.

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 24-May-13 11:36:56

You seriously believe that pedophiles target children due to short skirts?

Madlizzy Fri 24-May-13 11:43:40

I used to roll mine up and I know damn well my 14 year old daughter rolls hers up. So do all her friends. However, they all stick shorts on underneath as she says that they don't want everyone to see their knickers when they're walking upstairs.

Unfortunetly no matter how long, girls will roll up their skirts, i did from about 14 and i cringe now remembering all the old blokes in vans leering or beeping at meconfused. But i did it to get attention from young boys, a typical teenage thing really.

HibiscusIsland Fri 24-May-13 13:17:15

The kilts worn around here seem to be just as short as the plain school skirts with only one pleat. Doesn't seem to make much difference.

GraduallyGoingInsane Fri 24-May-13 16:51:23

My eldest 3 DDs have all been told off at some point about their skirts, but no matter what I say, the allure of fitting in with their friends is greater.

They wear school-issued kilts in winter (which, by the way, can most definitely still be rolled up). I actually don't mind these as much, as they are worn with thick tights and the pleats mean that they don't cling in the same way as straight skirts. I've caught all 3 older DDs with them rolled up on occasions. Although I'd rather they wore them at the knee or just above, the mid-thigh kilt doesn't make them look promiscuous or tarty. They just look like children with a vast tyre of fabric round their middles.

In the summer, the school loses its mind changes it's uniform. They wear plain straight skirts. These can be obtained from the school shop, but can also be got at most school uniform shops. I've noticed when dropping off that almost without exception, the girls' going into school have skirts that are a good couple of inches shorter in summer, and that's presumably before they get rolled up. This, twinned with socks and bare legs as opposed to tights, is more uncomfortable for me. I've had battles with the DDs about where we get the skirts from, how short they should be and how tight they should be. I cruelly have made them all wear skirts that end just above the kneecap. I'm bloody certain that all 3 of them roll them up - I've caught them a couple of times and read the riot act, and I've had the 'uniform slip' from school telling me their skirts are too short. Clearly, I am making them wear them longer, the school is telling them to wear them longer, yet they STILL find opportunities to wear them short.

I genuinely think they roll the skirts up because the other girls at school do it - it's pack instinct. Their friends all wear their skirts short, so they want to as well. I don't think it has much to do with being sexy or grown up - certainly for the younger 2. It's all about fitting in. DD4 who is still at primary school has eyed up shorter school skirts because her sisters wear them, and confidently tells me that when she's in year 7 she 'will get to wear higher skirts'.

I just tell myself that DD1 got great GCSES and is doing well at AS level. DD2 and DD3 are getting great reports and are happy. They're all kind hearted girls. If they flash their thighs to a bunch of their peers, I will get over it.

chandellina Fri 24-May-13 20:46:02

Sockreturning, it would be lovely if things were so simple, and no child could look sexy until the day she or he turned 16. You are deluded though if you think that is the case, and yes even prebuscents can be cast in an erotic light, as a vast archive of art and literature support.

GeorginaWorsley Fri 24-May-13 20:47:59

DD's school has a knee length kilt,bought from approved supplier,and there are regular 'skirt checks' involving frantic unrolling of waistbands!

Joiningthegang Fri 24-May-13 21:09:21

Just to point out there is absolutely no correlation between clothing and sexual assault

Skirt length - meh

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 24-May-13 21:21:47

Chandellina.

Of course they can be cast in such a light but its the person who does that,that sexualises them not the child.

And perhaps I'm weird but no child at all does look sexy and if a adult believes they do then the fault very much lays with that adult and that is what should be challenged not the way the child is dressed.

Sunnywithshowers Fri 24-May-13 21:55:25

YABU. I used to roll mine up when I was at school in the 80's. And I was neither a slut nor a prostitute, so DFO with those nasty comments.

I'd also like to state that skirt length has no bearing on likelihood of sexual assault, or a girl's propensity to shag around. hmm

chandellina Fri 24-May-13 22:45:14

Sockreturning, maybe it's a debate for another day, but I think that for better and worse sexuality develops over time. Girls wearing short skirts may well feel sexy and interested in being seen as such. Or just fitting in. I expect the motivation covers a range.

I clearly remember being all of 9 years old and having a "sexy" shirt (not revealing in any way) that made me feel very alluring for the 9 year old lads I vaguely fancied.

Wishiwasanheiress Sat 25-May-13 09:12:20

It's what young girls do. My mum did. I did. Dds will. Ill hate it. But I do accept they will.

Bet my nan did too!

LaQueen Sat 25-May-13 09:50:32

Has there actually been any conclusive studies, showing a direct effect between improper uniform (skirt length) and exam results?

When I see the pupils coming out of our local GSs, they often look quite a rag-tag bunch, visibly stripping off ties, slouching down trousers, rolling up skirts - before they walk home.

You can't argue with their exam results though, they're very impressive.

However, theydo have to observe strict unifrom regulations whilst on school premises, so not sure if that makes any difference?

LaQueen Sat 25-May-13 09:52:44

sock but the problem lies in the fact, that many 13/14/15 year old girls, physically look much older, tall with defined waist/hips and boobs, eventhough they are still children.

BrawToken Sat 25-May-13 09:55:10

My 15 year old wears a short skirt to school but it is longer than mine was. She is doing ok in every other area and is not overtly sexualised.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 25-May-13 09:57:29

Perhaps I'm just old, but they don't look like adults to me I even mistake 17/18 year olds for 15 year olds. But it gets a bit like that when some of your kids are adults you don't get fooled so much by younger kids trying to look older.

LaQueen Sat 25-May-13 10:02:23

Possibly sock

But, I was spectating recently, at our boys' GS water polo training - these 14/15 year old lads are 6 foot, broad shouldered, very muscled (and, no I really wasn't perving). But, physically they looked fully developed to me.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 25-May-13 10:06:09

They may well do but they still don't look like proper grown ups.

My dd quite likes that Tom what's his face the swimmer she pointed him out on the telly I guessed him as about 15 grin

LaQueen Sat 25-May-13 10:07:51

Oh, well yes, he's quite baby-faced, I agree smile

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