is my DP being completely unreasonable regarding DS2's MMR vaccination today?

(101 Posts)
AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 08:31:01

Our DS2 (child no 3) is due to have his pre-school boosters today. His last set of injections. I believe vaccinations are necessary and a lifesaver. All of our children have had all the vax's and DP has never queried it before or expressed any opinion.

I have had the appointment on the calendar for a couple of weeks and assumed that DP had seen it and had no objections to the vaccinations. When he asked what we were doing today I said we were doing nothing much, DS2 has his injections at lunchtime and I just wanted to have a nice quiet day indoors in case he was grouchy afterwards. DP then stated he was 'uncomfortable' with DS2 having his vaccinations. He stated they all contained toxins - including one called gardecyl (sp?) and that the actual illnesses they prevented were 'not that bad' He said he had had mumps as a child and he was fine. I was completely [shocked] and tried to explain the complications arising from the diseases which I think went over his head. I also explained to him that there is a current measles outbreak in Wales and that you cannot rely on herd immunity to protect your children.

I asked him what exactly he wanted me to do, to which he didn't have an answer. I am going to take DS2 for the vaccinations but feel like I am going behind his rather ill-informed back. I stated that the date has been on the calendar and the cards have been on the fridge for a couple weeks now. I said the time to speak up was before we had children - I argued that DD had all her vaccinations with no argument from him. I also said if he was that bothered he would have prepared a fully informed case against immunisation, rather than thrusting his mobile phone in my face with showing an article about 4 children in Nepal dying after a vaccination (it was thrust so close to my face and so briefly I couldn't even see what injections it was or where the source was from!)

My DP listens to a lot of David Icke, John Harris and Alex Jones on the radio / youtube and is quite into conspiracy theories which I find hugely irritating and frustrating. I suspect he's got his new opinions from something they have been broadcasting.

AIBU to go ahead and get the vaccination done?

ohforfoxsake Fri 12-Apr-13 08:33:10

Yes, get them done.

Yanbu. He is though.

Levantine Fri 12-Apr-13 08:33:29

No you are not

ParsleyTheLioness Fri 12-Apr-13 08:33:41

Quickly scan read, but did the first child have the vac?

ArabellaBeaumaris Fri 12-Apr-13 08:34:03


FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 12-Apr-13 08:34:06

Gardacil is the cervical cancer vaccine..he sounds a bit ill informed

LackaDAISYcal Fri 12-Apr-13 08:34:46

No, he is being unreasonable.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 12-Apr-13 08:34:49

Sorry Gardasil..its not in the MMR

mumblechum1 Fri 12-Apr-13 08:34:58

I'd just get on with it. But my dh was never involved in stuff like that when mine were little.

Sokmonsta Fri 12-Apr-13 08:35:27

Get him done. His agreement is implied in every other vaccination which has been done.

LackaDAISYcal Fri 12-Apr-13 08:35:55

for listening to David Icke especially; the man is a bona fide nutjob of the highest order!

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 08:36:03

Yep ALL children have had all the required injections. DS2 is due his pre-school boosters today, which will be the last he's required to have for a long time.

yousankmybattleship Fri 12-Apr-13 08:36:33

Get the jab. Your DH is being unreasonable. He can sulk about it, but at least your child will be protected.

yanbu, yab responsible and sensible.

soapnuts Fri 12-Apr-13 08:37:15

take him - irrespective of the fact that vaccinations are important (which i believe they are ), the morning of said vaccinations is not the time to raise concerns - if he had mentioned he wasn't sure before or could come up with some good reasons, fine, then you need to have the debate and agree what to do but he clearly hasn't shown enough interest in vaccinations before so it's up to you if you ask me.

willyoulistentome Fri 12-Apr-13 08:38:50

Just ignore. He's wrong and you right. Protect your little boy.

Just go ahead and get it done. Your DP is being unreasonable.

OnTheNingNangNong Fri 12-Apr-13 08:39:42

Vaccinate. The argument of 'I had it and i was fine' is poor at best.

Pagwatch Fri 12-Apr-13 08:40:41

No . He is being unreasonable.
My dd hasn't had her vaccinations but this is a joint decision involving both of us. DH talked it over in detail including with our Dr.

If you are going to decline a vaccination you should be able to explain why to those who are involved in that child's life.

and agree that if you've both agreed to vaccinate older children then unless things have changed that can be assumed to be consent from both poarents. The only thing that has changed is that measles has become a much bigger problem

Skygirls Fri 12-Apr-13 08:40:45

No you are NBU.

How would you feel if your DC came down with one of the illnesses with complications? You'd never forgive yourself.

I have 3 DCs and what we do for one, we do for all. So, if your DD had all hers, why not your DS? Thousands upon thousands of kids have had this vaccination with nothing more than being a bit grouchy.

FWIW when my DS2 had his pre-school booster, he was absolutely fine, not even grouchy, probably cos he was already immune from the first one.

I know every child is different and will react differently, but is it worth the risk not to get it done for fear of upsetting your DH?

Do what you feel is right for your child.

Lueji Fri 12-Apr-13 08:41:30

Gardacil is the cervical cancer vaccine..he sounds a bit ill informed

A bit?

I'd consider leaving if a parter actually prevented me from vaccinating my children.

And he's obviously not ok. ;)

AuntieStella Fri 12-Apr-13 08:41:44

Gardisil isn't the 'cervical cancer 'jab. It's the HPV jab - and both sexes can get HPV. It is offered only to girls because HPV is implicated in many cases of cervical cancer. If there was a genuine desire to reduce e amount of HPV in circulation (especially as it's such a new jab, and people don't only shag their own age group) it would be offered to both sexes. (OK - off soapbox on that one).

Yes, get the jabs done.

Tell him thiomersal was removed from UK jabs in about 1998. That some "vaccination deaths" have arising because of poor hygiene by administrator and are unconnected with the vaccine itself. Tell him you agree that complications of mumps are as are as rocking horse shit, but it's a trivalent jab and you will not compromise on the other two parts.

firesidechat Fri 12-Apr-13 08:41:53

I can't believe that he is disputing this at a time when there is a measles problem in certain parts of the country, when he wasn't previously bothered. His timing is impeccable.

I had an adult friend who was deaf and slightly brain damaged due to measles, so it is that bad.

I would never ignore my husbands wishes but he is a sensible person so I don't have to. You are right to get it done of course.

HollyBerryBush Fri 12-Apr-13 08:42:05

Get them vaccinated. If they have had one round of jabs, the second round won't affect them.

Google throws up this, from 2012, if you want to read further.

Four infants between nine and 14 months of age recently died within 24 hours of receiving their measles and DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus) vaccines in the Doti area of Nepal. The Doti District Public Health Office (DPHO) has stated the primary investigation suggests the measles vaccine was the cause of death

Get them done. You are doing the right thing.

If he had real objections, based on a lot of research and reasoning then he would have brought it up before now.

JaxTellerIsAllMine Fri 12-Apr-13 08:45:19

he is totally U. Get your child immunised.

Measles is bad - my MIL is blind in one eye due to measles as a child!

worldgonecrazy Fri 12-Apr-13 08:46:34

I would defer the jabs, sit down and have a rational discussion with him about the pros and cons.

It wouldn't be regarded as assault - nurses and GPs are quite happy to vaccinate children if only one parent agrees to it, no matter how vehemently the other parent disagrees. GPs and nurses will often ask non-vaccinating parent if the other parent agrees to their choice.

tomatoplantproject Fri 12-Apr-13 08:47:28

Vaccinate. It's too late to have a well informed discussion with him. Herd immunity is important for those who are too frail, and we don't see the horrible illnesses any more that are vaccinated against. I would rather take the risk of vaccinating than see my child go through measles etc.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Fri 12-Apr-13 08:48:28

Mumps can cause infertility in males. You should definitely get your DS immunised today.

lottiegarbanzo Fri 12-Apr-13 08:53:38

Do it, of course.

If he really had concerns, he'd have researched them properly and expressed them earlier and more clearly.

You can't live your life pandering to the unreasoned, unpredictable whims of someone who can't put a coherent argument together.

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 08:53:50

I will definitely be taking DS for his final injections later and he hasn't 'prevented' me. I'm just totally WTF @ why he's chosen this morning to raise his half baked concerns. Suspect he was spoiling for an early morning pre work argument. If he was that bothered he would have prepared some well though out reasoned argument based on fact from unbiased reliable sources before we had DD & DS2 (DS1 is my son from a previous disaster)

lottiegarbanzo Fri 12-Apr-13 08:55:34

You could pick up a leaflet on gardicil for him, while you're there.

AuntieStella Fri 12-Apr-13 08:57:20

There was a a measles/rubella immunisation drive in Nepal in 2012, and 10 million doses of e vaccine were administered. It's easy to find reports that the vaccine may have been implicated, and a statement that an independent team under UN WHO auspices was going to investigate what happened at that one clinic. But I haven't been able to unearth any links to the final report.

Being cynical, I would have expected official confirmation of vaccine problem, rather than administration problem (the vaccine had been 10 days out of hospital storage before this clinic) to have been widely reported and repeated over many vax sites.

lottiegarbanzo Fri 12-Apr-13 08:59:41

Does he usually ask about and comment on what you're doing that day? Maybe just feeling irritable and looking for something to be unhappy about.

ParsleyTheLioness Fri 12-Apr-13 09:02:03

I would do it then. YANBU

Misspixietrix Fri 12-Apr-13 09:15:27

YDNBU. Thanks OP, you've reminded me I need to book Ds in for his ~

Mimishimi Fri 12-Apr-13 09:16:39

You can get the measles/mumps/rubella shots as three seperate shots. There were some concerns that some of the binders used in the combo shot could trigger autism in some children. Opinion is still divided on that although I think there have been some recent studies claiming no connection, just coincidence that parents start noticing symptoms after the 18 month shot. Our DS has a PDD-NOS diagnosis due to a severe speech disorder ( but was not deemed autistic due to social skills) which is still very apparent, although massively improved with therapy. Unfortunately his symptoms did start about a week after his 18 month MMR shot where he completely stopped talking for about six months (was using two word phrases before that). If I had to do it again, I would have chosen to get the shots seperately even if it ends up there is no connection.

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 09:17:16

Just rang him up to discuss further. I told him that Gardicil was the vax given to prevent HPV and not what our 3yr old son was having today. He then asked what immunisations he was having!! So you can see what I am up against. It's like banging my head against a brick wall. He hasn't got a clue whats going on but will argue about it anyhow.

I told him it was MMR, polio, diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough. He then said the MMR 'was really bad' and I needed to find out what was in it. I then had to tell him that this was a booster (which I assumed he knew) and that DS2 had already had the first half of it when he was about 18mths old. If there was a problem we would have known then. He didn't really respond, just alluded to that fact I believe whatever the government feed me (more david icke / alex jones / john harris related crap)

So annoyed but won't let him know as I suspect he's just looking for a row.

Mimishimi Fri 12-Apr-13 09:17:34

Just wanted to add that there is no way I would not have got him vaccinated though..

Flobbadobs Fri 12-Apr-13 09:20:39

YANBU, Just do it. Get him to read Them by Jon Ronson, and tell him to look very carefully at the type of people posting on the David Ike boards (I have lost many hours being alternatively shock and grin at some of the shit that comes out there!) the book has a whole section on Alex Jones, even the real conspiracy theorists think he's a nutjob!
I had measles as a child and was fine, still vaxed all of ours without hesitation.
If he wants a debate on the pros and cons today was not the day to do it.

HazleNutt Fri 12-Apr-13 09:22:10

YANBU, especially if he is coming out with "Well I don't know what it is but heard somewhere it's really bad" arguments.

MaryRobinson Fri 12-Apr-13 09:22:29

What it comes down to is this: If your child is unvaccinated you chould assume they will get the disease. Measles has a death rate of 1/1000 and a permanent brain damage/disability rate of 1/1000 in total a rate of 1/500 for permanet damage or death.

I have no idea what the nutters think is the rate of damage caused by the vaccines, including poor hygiene whilst being vaccinated. But I'm pretty sure it is less than 1 in 500.
Therefore the least risky option is vaccinate

QOD Fri 12-Apr-13 09:22:45

My dd had the single jabs, we were right in the middle of the furore and one of my nieces had had a v v serious reaction. She had the mmr and then got chicken pox which attacked her brain.
Totally agree he is BU though as, as you said, the time to object was before the initial one, not the booster!

My dd is protected against measles and rubella, what pissed me off big time is that you go ahead with single jabs (very dear) and THEN they tell you you can't get single dose mumps.
I think that's important, very important, for boys.
I gave my poor old grandad mumps and he got a double inguinal hernia. Ouch!

lottiegarbanzo Fri 12-Apr-13 09:22:50

You absolutely do not need to find out anything for him. He can do his own finding out. Then he can put a case together and try to convince you. In the meantime, getting on with normal life is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Ignore, ignore!

Why would he be spoiling for a pre-work fight? Is he always doing things like this?

I'd tell him it's a bit bloody late to be objecting to vaccinations and that would be the end of the discussion for me. I'd be far more understanding if this was a first MMR for a first child and talk it through, do the research and decide together. But at this stage is it the vax or just a row?

ChunkyChicken Fri 12-Apr-13 09:29:27

It seems to me that perhaps the David Ike lot are maybe making ill informed, stupid comments in response to the "topical" subject of MMR, hence explaining the timing of his comments. As an aside, I'm not sure I'd be with someone who seriously bought into that conspiracy theory stuff, as a result of propaganda, rather than hard 'fact' iyswim


MaryRobinson Fri 12-Apr-13 09:29:46

Just for info a very very quick google check suggest that the rate of permanent damage from MMR is about 5-6 per million. Compared to about 2,000 per million from measles.

WidowWadman Fri 12-Apr-13 09:33:30

Mimishi - the autism link has been completely discredited and Wakefield has been struck off. Opinion isn't divided, it's very clear that there is no link.

LisaMed Fri 12-Apr-13 09:34:07

So it's not about the mmr but about wanting an argument. Why is he provoking arguments? What other stuff is he being difficult about?

Good luck on this.

Flobbadobs Fri 12-Apr-13 09:37:23

The David Ike bunch are also the type to see conspiracy in literally everything, there was a thread asking if anyone thought the story about Mick Philpotts family was made up, analysing the photos for signs of photoshop etc. they also think that the Newtown shootings were faked and devoted days to finding evidence that 9/11 victims are actors and still alive. Oh and the majority of them are Holocaust deniers and blame WW2 on us.
Does he really want to be classed in the same way?

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 09:39:58

ladyintheradiator Neither of us are morning people and we are usually a bit snippy with each other. He quite often tries to 'gas light' but I never rise to it as I can see through it. He tends to come out with half baked political comments designed to irritate. His Dad is the same with his mum. Once he's had his breakfast and a coffee he's back to normal. Bit like the snickers advert.

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 09:45:59

Thanks for the comments on the David Icke & co stuff. As soon as DP starts on about it I zone out. He can listen to what he wants but I've told him I'm not interested. Funnily enough he is quite quick to shut the door in the face of Jehovahs Witnesses.

We have been together 10 years. The conspiracy crap has only been an interest of his for the last year or so but yes, it does concern me.

Mosschops30 Fri 12-Apr-13 09:47:23

I'm pro vaccination

I'm taking ds2 to one of the MMR clinics this weekend rather than wait another month for his boosters.

Protect your Ds soon.

Where I work we are vaccinating for MMR before 12 months now to protect children

There is little/no risk from vaccine but a very real risk from measles please please please vaccinate

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 09:47:46

I have AS, I'm 54. No MMR when I was young. I have had all three diseases though.
My sister wears 'beer bottle' glasses because of measles complications.
My dds(16) have had Gardacil, as has my ds. We paid for him to have it too. That was two years ago. He's fine.

Flobbadobs Fri 12-Apr-13 09:53:42

Studying conspiracy theorists has become a hobby of mine, I know a few so started reading up. I've come to the conclusion that it must be an exhausting life to lead...

OxfordBags Fri 12-Apr-13 10:03:20

Your DP is free to be stupid and paranoid enough to believe any old crap he reads, but he is not free to potentially risk your child's health or even life because of that nonsense.

I have a male friend who is infertile due to getting mumps in his teens, amd my Gran was disabled due to getting polio as a child. I also had whooping cough as a child (I was vaccinated, but it was a faulty batch, the Docs reckon) and it scars your lungs so that, even now, when I get a cough/cold/chest infection, I cough really deeply, painfully and loudly, like whooping cough.

I'm also very worried that you say he's started believing this stuff over the last year. That is a massive red flag for a subtle encroachment of mental health problems. It's simply not normal or mentally sound to believe that sort of stuff. People with, or developing, delusional issues will appear otherwise rational and so on.

How far are you going to tolerate him bringing this nonsense into family life? Saying that man has not walked on the moon? Denying the Holocaust? Insisting that the Royal Family are all secretly giant lizards?

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 10:04:31

I agree Flobadobs I don't know an awful lot but I would hate to lead my life feeling that paranoid about everything and questioning everything you see on the news. I hear Alex Jones going on about seed banks and the new world order and John Harris going on about being a 'freeman' and not registering your child's birth (apparently by registering them you are signing them up for a life of slavery) and I just want to bang my head on the kitchen worktop. Sadly my DP thinks it's revoluntionary stuff.

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 10:11:35

Oxford Bags I totally agree with you and I also agree it's probably a sign of underlying MH issues. I don't know what to do. I do know there is no point trying to debate with someone who is delusional as their argument is 'prove it' which I can't and neither can they. Stalemate.

With regards to the vax, I had rubella as a child, My DS1 had mumps despite being having the MMR. There is no way I would not have it done. Just want to be prepared for a bit more debate later.

Still18atheart Fri 12-Apr-13 10:15:27

YADNBU but your dp is

OxfordBags Fri 12-Apr-13 10:19:02

Well, you CAN prove it (or offer better proof) but he's not going to believe it. If you are worried, you could speak to his GP about it. Or ring MIND for some advice. Of course, if you tell him you've rung his GP, it could just fuel his paranoia. It is tricky though, and your DC should not be exposed to him presenting this stuff as true, facts, etc. It's so confusing and damaging for them (because they naturally want to believe their parents).

This will only get worse, not go away. And it could become unsafe for any of you to be around him. Obviously, that's a bit dramatic for now, but it is a very real potential future.

Get your son vaccinated. Then have a think about what to do about DH's problems. Ring MIND, like I suggested, they're great. Good luck.

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 10:26:45

oxford bags Thank you, will look at MINDs website and research a bit further. I don't want the children hearing it either.

noblegiraffe Fri 12-Apr-13 10:27:30

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they are so bloody insidious. The perpetrators don't tend to flat out say '9-11 wasn't a plane' rather ask niggly questions like 'where are the plane's wings in this photo?' Of course not many people are expert enough to answer these questions (of which there are many) and so you start thinking 'what if?' then something else comes along that niggles and you end up with a distorted world view in which the most bizarre things (like registering your child into slavery, I mean, that's just ridiculous but I've also seen the arguments for it) start to make sense. It's very hard to break because you are still left with some niggling questions unanswered.

Not sure I would recommend he read Jon Ronson on conspiracy theorists because at the end of his book it turns out powerful people do meet in a forest and dance around an owl. Which makes anything believable.

OxfordBags Fri 12-Apr-13 10:27:34

You sound really sensible and supportive, Anita smile

sashh Fri 12-Apr-13 10:33:49

Of course they contain toxins, that's the point, to produce a response in the immune system

woowoo22 Fri 12-Apr-13 10:45:55

My DH goes through phases of listening to Alex Jones and believing everything he says. It drives me crazy. IMO he mixes an occasional grain of truth with an enormous amount of hyperbole/utter nonsense.


noblegiraffe Fri 12-Apr-13 10:54:46

Weren't lots of people raving about David Icke and his website being a source of truth over the recent paedophile stuff? Something about Icke having named McAlpine for ages? Turned out he was completely wrong on that point didn't it?

kerala Fri 12-Apr-13 11:00:01

Totally second Oxfordbags he sounds unwell.

My DH would be hmm about the mumps being nothing. He caught mumps out of the blue in his mid twenties, and despite being fit and healthy was really really ill. Plus the worry that he was infertile (he caught the strain that makes men infertile). It was an awful time for him something I would definitely want to spare any son I had. My grandmother was deaf in one ear from childhood due to measles so would err on the get the jabs side.

Charlesroi Fri 12-Apr-13 11:14:08

Your DH may not have had measles or mumps but I have, and it was shit. Had to take loads of antibiotics and have daily injections.
To be fair most kids who get these diseases will suffer no long term effects, but if you can avoid them why put your kids through it?

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 11:16:32

He has just sent me the following link as 'proof' that vaccinations are bad. FFS.

Andro Fri 12-Apr-13 11:16:37

<Dons flame proof jacket and hard hat>

I don't think either of you are being unreasonable. You are being reasonable to have your child vaccinated if your DS hasn't had a serious reaction to previous vax, but your DH is perfectly entitles to state that he's uncomfortable with it for whatever reason (I'd be more likely to say he was unreasonable if he was actually trying to enforce his opinion).

My DS was vaccinated against measles and mumps separately (GP's recommendation at the time), DD had the MMR and nearly died from the allergic reaction - I share your DH's discomfiture (but not his reasons!).

ClayDavis Fri 12-Apr-13 11:30:14

Does he have a link that isn't 'natural news'?

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 11:30:37

Don't worry about the hard hat and flame-proof gear Andro I'm all up for reasonable discussion. I'm really annoyed by how he has left it until 4 hrs before the appointment to voice his concerns and how he didn't bat an eyelid at all the other vaccinations DS2 has had. Now he's sending me links to American research and doesn't even seem to know what exactly DS2 is being vaccinated against today. He even came with me to the 6 week injections!

DS2 has not had any negative reactions to any of his injections

DS1 actually caught mumps when he was about 3, sometime between the original MMR and the booster. It was horrible and he had two courses of antibiotics to shift it on.

OnTheNingNangNong Fri 12-Apr-13 11:31:17

Oh, it's from Natural News, it must be true.

I would like to know the number of vaccinated children vs unvaccinated children. I would bet more vaccinated children would have been subjected to it than non-vax.

And instigated by a homeopathist, obviouslya true medically qualified person with no biased agenda.

OnTheNingNangNong Fri 12-Apr-13 11:32:02
schobe Fri 12-Apr-13 11:35:34

What a dick. People like this give the more sensible contributors to this debate a bad name.

As a rule of thumb, people that basically resort to 'well it's because I'm a lot cleverer than you' in an argument, tend not to be all that clever imo.

ClayDavis Fri 12-Apr-13 11:50:56

Only scanned it but the methodology seems to include answering a survey on an anti vax website. Can't see any issue there. hmm

Andro Fri 12-Apr-13 12:01:07

AnitaManeater - it does seem to be sudden about face without a significant trigger...

I'm very much of the mindset that anyone has the right to hold an opinion, but I expect them to back it up! I would never say 'don't vaccinate' to anyone, but I would be very concerned (and reluctant) about either of my dc having any more vaccinations because of how sick DD was.

foslady Fri 12-Apr-13 12:02:04

My GP's 2nd child is autistic. He still insisted on his 3rd child having the MMR vaccine. Suggest that if he wants to research properly he looks at both sides of the argument, the field size used and the background issues in each medical trial. That way he'll see just why the MMR trial was discredited so much.

OxfordBags Fri 12-Apr-13 12:23:40

Him suddenly ranting about this might be a sign that mental health issues/delusions/paranoia might be flaring. Suddenly becoming properly aware that today is vax day might be triggering. As Andro says, it's all very sudden - to me, that sounds like a deterioration in his grip on rationality. He sounds hysterical and like he's losing it a bit. And apart from any of that, he is also being an arse, leaving all that stuff up to you to sort out and then demanding it doesn't happen at the last minute. Just that chaotic attitude in itself is as worrying as it is annoying. It sounds part of a bit of a prob.

Not trying to be some amateur interwebs psychologist, but he's not sounding mentally fabulous, sorry.

lottiegarbanzo Fri 12-Apr-13 12:47:57

I agree with OxfordBags and, from my own experience, being irritable, snappy and reacting against things others do, while feeling powerless to do much yourself, is consistent with mild depression.

I was going to make a different and very rational point though. You said upthread that he offers his view and 'evidence', you offer yours, then it's stalemate. No it isn't.

You are relying on normal, established practice, developed and honed over years by a huge community of highly trained professionals who act upon a vast base of rigorous, published research. He is not.

Saying 'oh but I'm not sure about this', 'what about that?', 'so and so's opinion is this' is not evidence against that, it is a set of questions that demonstate an interest in learning, or should do. Unfortunately conspiracy theorists and their subscribers don't want to learn. They want the world to be simple, fully comprehensible to them and comforting in its predictability and not the complex, intriguing, unpredictable environment that it is.

It is very easy to sit and snipe at things others do, when you know you're not going to have to do them or take responsibility for the consequences. It is far harder to form a comprehensive and coherent alternative. Harder again to put that into action. Ask the Liberal Democrats.

Really, if your DP has bought into an alternative world view, he, like a politician, needs to look at the big picture, formulate a full set of policies and try to persuade you his alternative lifestyle is realistic and beneficial. Sitting at home saying 'I'm happy to enjoy all the benefits of the life we have but actually I think the world is run by lizards and we should be living in the woods' or 'I'll take it all but just want the freedom to snipe at the things you do when I'm at work' is just lazy hypocrisy.

OxfordBags Fri 12-Apr-13 13:05:04

And I agree with what Lottie just said smile

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 13:25:14

I absolutely agree with you lottie oxford Andro & foslady and you have put it all far better than I have. I will make mental notes and use them when we 'debate' this later when he gets back.

I have just been to the health centre and had the injections done grin

My DS1 came downstairs when we got home and asked if DS2 had autism yet (DS1 is autistic himself) and it did make me chuckle. DS1 surprised me with some research he had gone and done off his own back after overhearing our discussion this morning. Seem like my 14yr old DS1 has more sense than 40yr old DP!!

motherinferior Fri 12-Apr-13 13:28:49

If he thinks the MMR has Gardasil in it, he's quite worryingly ill-informed.

StuntGirl Fri 12-Apr-13 13:30:18

Conspiracy theorists are exhausting aren't they? My Uncle, an otherwise intelligent, educated, scientific man will come out with some right weird statements that he is adamant are true. I don't engage, he's not interested in a debate, just interested in telling everyone else how they're wrong.

TumbleWeeds Fri 12-Apr-13 13:36:21

Well I am not really pro vax and I still think your DP is BU!

If you have an issue with vax, the least you can do is
1- to talk about it to your partner
2- know what sort of vax your children have had/are going to have
3- read a lot about the different vax and learn what are the potential issues with each of them as well as the good sides.

I am even more shock at his attitude now that we know your ds has ASD. Seeing all the commotions created by the MMR and autism in the past, I would have thought he would have being even more careful re the MMR and subsequent children but he didn't even know which vax his dc was going to have!
<<Note: not saying there is a link between MMR and your ds autism. Just that it's a link that most people who have looked at vax safety would made and would certainly have had as serious look. Especially when you have one child affected iyswim>>

WithASpider Fri 12-Apr-13 13:41:50

This thread just reminded me to book DS's pre-school booster, Thanks!

My Dh, Like yours, Has no idea what vacs our DC have had. He simply assumes i wouldn't do something to them that wasn't beneficial.

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 13:43:21

I can't stand the whole conspiracy thing. I love a good debate, I love to learn new things. I consider myself to be open minded and tolerant. I like to think I make decisions based on all the facts available.

I can't stand the look in DP's eye or how excited he gets when he's talking about the latest load of crap Alex Jones has to offer. Apart from when he's going on about conspiracy theories he is rational, well educated and a very likeable bloke.

I tried to debate with him once as to why Alex Jones was 'right' and Jehovahs Witness's were 'wrong' We even have a sign on our door saying 'no religious sects'. He had no answer and just kept going off on a tangent at which point I gave up. Which is what happens every time I try to put my point across and get him to understand.

AnitaManeater Fri 12-Apr-13 13:50:01

Withaspider that's what I assumed the case was here. I have always made the majority of decisions regarding the children. He's never queried it before and he knows I wouldn't do something that I felt wasn't beneficial. Think he was just trying to stir it up this morning and he's now clutching at straws.

higgle Fri 12-Apr-13 13:54:16

Can't undertand all this fus over measles vaccination, when I was young most people had it and weren't all that ill. I had it when I was 15, and it was not nice but not terrible.

yeayea89 Fri 12-Apr-13 13:56:13

Get the vaccinations done... You can still pick up diseases, but you would only have a mild form of them with vaccines. People who don't have them done are the reason outbreaks occur... And put people at risk! There is a reason they have created a vaccine against, you don't go and get a chicken pox vaccine as its only a mild illness. Vaccines are for preventing life threatening illnesses

firesidechat Fri 12-Apr-13 13:56:53

I would highly recommend the Bad Science book by Ben Goldacre. He has a whole chapter on The MMR and the scare that was based on bad science, basically. The worries about MMR were resolved years ago now, so your partner is a bit behind.

A relative has severe mental health issues and various conspiracy theories were a bit part of it. I know you can't make him leave this stuff alone, but it's obviously not doing him any favours.

Calabria Fri 12-Apr-13 14:01:43

Not read the whole thread yet.

I had measles when I was a child and I was definitely NOT alright. I nearly died.

He is being very unreasonable.

CMP69 Fri 12-Apr-13 14:19:20

We are in the middle of a measles outbreak in the NE (and in Wales) I am so glad ds (4) has had all his vaccs. However I consistently refuse to have my flu vaccine at work (NHS) so am not pro unnecessary jabs

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 17:55:47

Are you serious, Higgle

ShadowStorm Fri 12-Apr-13 19:40:30


Measles in particular can be very very nasty (and just because higgle was fine doesn't make it nothing to worry about. I used to work with a lady who was completely deaf in one ear as a result of childhood measles).

If your DH has genuine concerns over the safety of vaccinations, it's very odd that he hasn't mentioned it before. I would expect a parent who had concerns about vaccine safety to have discussed it with the other parent and to make themselves aware about what vaccines children are offered and when they're offered them. Not bring it up for the first time as his youngest child is about to get his final vaccinations.

Perihelion Fri 12-Apr-13 21:36:56

Mumps can be really nasty too and not just for males. I had encephalitis as a complication. Was paralysed and still suffer weakness on my left side 36 years later and my mum reckons I changed personality and wasn't the same child I'd been before.
Roughly 10% chance of dying if you get encephalitis.........

HellesBelles396 Sat 13-Apr-13 12:52:17

Individual jabs are not available - nor should they be. It would reduce take-up of vaccination as well as increasing the number of injections at a huge cost to the country merely to allay the concerns of parents who have not looked beyond soundbites. Only one study - Andrew Wakefield's - ever found a link between MMR and autism or bowel disease. A study that was flawed in so many ways.

Andrew Wakefield is trying to blame the government for the outbreak caused by his study (the majority of children who have been infected should have had their jabs at the time of his "research")

noblegiraffe Sat 13-Apr-13 12:59:23

Shame on the Independent for that headline, and shame on Wakefield. He played far more of a role in the Swansea epidemic than the government. If not for his flawed study, would parents have even wanted the single jab?

HellesBelles396 Sat 13-Apr-13 13:07:39

the headline does not match the content unfortunately - it goes on to make it very clear that the MMR is not linked to autism by any reputable study but you wouldn't know if you hadn't waded through his guff.

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