measles at nursery(67 Posts)
I'm not sure if I'm being overcautious and justifiably cross or not, so hoping you can set me straight.
My 4 year old attends nursery, and I also have a 3 month old. I have just found out that two children in the nursery have measles. The nursery have not informed parents, i was told by another mother. When i asked the nursery staff, they fobbed me off, being vague and not confirming anything, then said the nursery manager would call me. When she called, she said there was only one case, and the child had not been at nursery while contagious.
This is not the full story, i have now spoken to two mums who both have children with measles, both of whom have informed the nursery. AIBU to be furious that nursery are being so vague & not fully informing parent?
Both children with measles were in a different age range and room to my 4 year old. Am i being overcatious in keeping her away from the nursery? My worry is more about exposing my 3 month old to measles, my 4 year old has been immunised.
It's highly contagious - also I'd have serious misgivings about the way they handled the situation regarding telling you the truth
I would keep her away till further notice.
Sorry for posting briefly, before, was holding baby!
Thank you! I wasn't sure if that was reasonable.
I'm not sure what to do about the way they have handled this. It really dents my trust in them.
They're clearly more worried about having an empty nursery than about informing parents, it's a notifiable illness, shocking that they are trying it seems to cover it up.
They should have insurance cover for instances when they might have to close/have fewer children in, it's not your problem.
I'm not sure what the rules are regarding their informing parents, someone here will know.
I'm waiting for another call from them now. The manager said she was waiting for advice from the health authority on how to handle this. I'm shocked they don't have procedures in place for this.
I'm also doubting they have not been given advice, the first baby was ill over Easter!
I feel furious & really want to complain to someone!
Yanbu, they should have informed you all. When my son was at nursery there was a suspected measles case and the nursery had a nurse from the health centre personally contact each parent in the nursery class to inform them, give them advice and to check vaccines were up to date.
Measles is a notifiable disease and I think it is extremely irresponsible of the nursery not to tell parents.
Some facts here about measles
i would be furious with nursery for lying about something like this.
the dc's nursery used to stick a note on the nursery door if anyone had anything like that - first one would probably say 'a case' but if there were more cases reported to them they would the change it to 'a number of cases' just so they didn't have to keep changing the note which seemed reasonable.
it would also have useful info like signs to look out for, incubation time, exclusion time from nursery, whether or not you needed to go to the doctor's for medicine etc etc.
And when you spoke to the nursery staff they would always fill you in truthfully - they might not go into the details of who exactly it was that had come down with something, especially if it was in a different room and you didn't know them, but would certainly say 'there were 3 cases in the baby room, one of them has a sister in the toddler room who hasn't had it yet but nobody in the pre-school room has come down with it yet'.
And for some things it's important to know - if you were pregnant and chicken pox is going around for example. It's nice to have the info on the door of the nursery so that you can make the decision about whether or not to go in if it does affect you.
I can see that the nursery might think they need to keep medical details private - and can see that especially in a big nursery they wouldn't want to name names as such (dc were at a small friendly nursery so not so much of an issue) but to actively lie to you about the numbers of children ill - why would they do that? it's not like they are admitting that 4 children have had the same 'unforeseeable' accident and therefore they are liable for the last 3 of them. It's a nursery - childhood illnesses do sweep around them, and it's the way that it is managed that help to show the true nature of the nursery and its relationship with parents.
Do you have any other concerns about the nursery? To me this would be a red flag and I'd be wondering about what else they had been 'deliberately vague' about...
Does your 3 month old attend nursery too? If your 4 year old is immunised and your 3 month old doesnt attend then the risk is low isn't it?
Complain to OFSTED and the local health authority about how they have handled this - they need to step up and become a whole load more professional.
You would have thought that they should have a ready made document for each main disease so that if somebody rings up to say they have measles or whatever, they can whizz to their illness directory, scan down, print off a copy of 'Measles Poster' to stick on the door and then xx copies of 'Measles letter' for every child to take home with them that evening.
One thing if a child comes down with something very strange or unheard of - but even then you'd have thought that they would have at least got a generic letter to say that there was a case of 'oopsywoopsyspottyitis' in nursery, that they were letting you know and were in contact with the health authority waiting for advice which would be following on asap.
Measles is a horrendous condition, my Dad had it as a child and is profoundly deaf in both ears as a result.
The nursery are irresponsible for not informing anyone about the situation.
If my DS wasn't up to date with his vaccinations I wouldn't want him anywhere near nursery if there was a measles outbreak. It's an awful illness and a serious one at that.
Bunbaker, thank you for the links, will follow up & get informed.
Zipzap, there is actually a note up currently informing about chicken pox in the nursery, but they have always been cagey about who has a particular illness. TThis has not bothered me before, I've just seen it as them protecting confidentiality. So they might say there have been cases of sickness, but nit who or how many. I'm now feeling this my not be best practice, and in fact demonstrates more concerns over their liability than child safety.
My 4 year old just told me s child was vomiting yesterday in nursery, the staff made no mention of this.
Should I just look for another nursery?
Glossy, my 3 month old is not at nursery yet, but is with me for drop off & pick up. My 4 yr old is fully immunized, so maybe I am being over cautious.
Despite this, I still feel nursery should have informed parents. Then I would be in a position to make decisions about the potential risk iyswim?
Posted too soon, I think there probably is very little risk to my little one so far, but as I understand it the vaccination does not make a child 100% immune, but reduces the severity of measles. So if my 4yr old was exposed to it, she may have a mild case. Or have I got this wrong?
Your 4yo could theoretically get it despite being vacc'd
I'd also be aware of the possibility of their passing it on the the little one simply through contact with the illness in the air/on clothes? I don't know, but basically if you cannot trust the nursery and they're not being fully transparent about this then yes, I'd be changing nurseries.
I agree with zipzap. Complain to OFSTED. There has been an outbreak at my son's nursery as well, and I have a newborn. Nursery have been brilliant - they've notified all parents and attached a fact sheet plus their own advice and updated us regularly. They emailed the all-clear yesterday. Your nursery should have done the same.
DS's nursery is now saying all kids should be vaccinated, possibly a bit controversial to some but I agree. There are pregnant women and young babies going in and out of that nursery.
If there was more than one case of confirmed measles at our nursery, I would expect to be told. If there was a confirmed case in a child my DC plays with a lot, I would expect to be told. Not that it would worry me for my DC as they have been immunised.
If one or two children were thought to have measles but the cases were not yet confirmed by medical tests, I would not necessarily expect to be told immediately because early measles is hard to diagnose, apparently, and worrying people without good reason is a bad thing in itself.
If a child vomited at nursery near my child, I would not expect to be told necessarily.
I'm not particularly laid back, its just that kids have minor illnesses all the time. By the time a child has vomited near mine, I can't reduce the risk my child getting sick. Measles can be very nasty, and so we should be told about that - but the only thing I need to know is has my child been exposed to a child who turns out to have measles. And even then I can't do much, because they are already immunised.
I wouldn't worry for yourself- just be sorry for the families with measles.
Yes I see what you mean. The nursery has a responsibility to fully inform all parents, then it's down to the parents as to what they want to do.
Maybe though when you spoke to the manager the second case was not yet confirmed? Regardless she/he should have said yes there's one confirmed case and one suspected case.
I would be very angry that they had concealed this and yes I would keep my child away, if I could, until they had sorted themselves out.
I have an vaccinated child at nursery and an un-vaccinated 4 month old (will be vaccinated at 13 months) so similar to you in that the baby goes into nursery for pick ups. I would be livid if I found out that there was measles at nursery and they didnt inform parents immediately, resulting in me unwittingly taking the baby into an environment where measles had been reported. I think I would take dd out and find a new nursery.
I would find a nursery that is not run by very very stupid people.
If they have made such huge misjudgement over something so dangerous, do you really want them looking after your child?
one of my big life rules is stay away from stupid people,
I would thank your luck stars you have found out how hopeless they are, and find somewhere where they care about children.
The nursery my children attended had(still does) a notice board inside the gate before you got anywhere near the building, which had any infection warning on it updated each day, they also emailed all parents when an infection was spotted, they did this so parents would be extra vigilant for symptoms,and not send in children who were about to come down with an illness and for people who had low immune system, siblings and families members on chemo, babies, it worked really well, the staff were brilliant, well trained, mature ,no nonsense lovely women and man,
When I read MN I wonder how these business survive, they would have instantly no customers around here.
DDs nursery put notices on the door - so before you enter - if there are any contagious disease outbreaks. For things like chicken pox they do a running total of how many cases each day. All up front and clear to parents. Your nursery sounds suspect and I would not be happy.
I think you are right to be careful. Measles can be caught by breathing in contaminated air, so you baby is at risk if you walk down a corridor or into a room where a contagious child has sneezed or coughed. You can also catch it by touching surfaces that have been sneezed on, but I don't know if that would include your 4 yr olds clothing, or how long it lasts.
what quoteunquote says. I would be furious with the nursery. Measles is a notifiable disease and it is common practice for unvaccinated siblings/ babies to be brought in at collection and drop-off time.
I wonder how the nursery can be sure that the infected child was not there when s/he was contagious? Unless said child was on holiday at the time or something.
I would expect there tombe a sign on the door once there was a confirmed case.
Incubation period of 2 weeks, with contageous period of around 4 days before rash, means that children can be in nursery and contageous without anyone knowing. Going into an environment with lots of children will expose you to lots of viruses, thus why children starting nursery often become ill.
Other than putting a sign on the door, what would you expect the nursery to do?
people who have an outbreak can you say roughly where you are in the UK? many thanks
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Ugh I posted to the wrong thread...how do I delete my message??
lovewine report your post for admin to delete.
A horrified that they've filmed flamed on letting people know, especially if it happened over Easter. I would have at least expected a notice on the door warning that some of the children were confirmed wit measles over the Easter holiday and there's a 2 week incubation period.
OP, please come back and tell us the full story when you've found it out
clementine I'd be interested to know too. I'm in Manchester. I read about quite a large outbreak in South Wales recently.
I heard its spreading, gone to north east as well?
I would be interested to know from here who is reporting out breaks.
I heard today that there are lots of cases all over the country- not just Swansea.
They shouldn't have misled you but why would the be worried about an empty nursery, they get paid regardless don't they?
There are fixed, absolutely fixed, procedures for handling outbreaks of contagious diseases at nurseries (or indeed other settings) and the managers have no discretion to act until a case is laboratory confirmed at which point they will notify in exactly the way proscribed by the HPA.
When I worked in the private nursery, (back in the 90's) we informed parents of a measles and mumps outbreak. Both happened on Christmas day and we found out a few days after. The Owner was away, so we contacted the Manager at the other nursery and she got in touch with enviromental health who gave guidance and she came and informed each member of staff and notices on the door of what to say. Both children had been fully immunised.
We only had one parent who caused a scene and she shot herself in the foot as her main argument was "Why do you allow children who haven't been immunised into nursery!" Turns out she hadn't had her child immunised .
But they should keep you in the loop and if not, I would take it further with who ever inspects them.
Second attempt to update you, lost mtmy last massive post..grr! Have been busy all day, apologies for disappearing!
Had numerous conversations with nursery manager, will try to be brief with full update.
There are 2 children in nursery who have had measles, both been hospitalized. Child 1 was ill over Easter, and was probably away from nursery when contagious. Child 2 is currently ill, in hospital since Monday, last at nursery Thursday, so possibly was in nursery while contagious. Both sets of parents informed nursery at time. Child 2's parents were told a notice had been put up telling other parents (not true though). I know this from speaking to parents.
The nursery manager initially said there were 2 unconfirmed cases. In our final conversation she said one case has been confirmed, but I don't know which. Nursery manager (NM) said the nursery were waiting for the health protection agency to contact them to advise on when to inform parents & what to say. NM also said the HPA advised her not to tell parents until the cases were confirmed, to avoid scaremongering. The nursery have now (this evening) put out a memo to parents from the HPA. I have not seen this, because we have not been to nursery, but NM told me & so did other parents.
So, it seems nursery were aware at Easter that a child was hospitalized & treated for measles, but it seemed unlikely that the child had been at nursery while contagious. A second child was hospitalized & treated for measles on Monday, & in this case there was some reason to suspect the child may have attended while contagious. Their response to this was to do nothing, but hait for contact &advice from HPA. When a parent asked about the measles cases (me) they denied it & then contacted the HPA, finally informing parents on Thursday evening.
I should point out both cases are children in the baby room, baby room is all under 20month, many will not have been vaccinated yet.
I think they should have put out the waning of suspected measles, with info about symptoms to look out for on Monday or Tuesday.
To be clear, o don't think my children are at risk particularly, but have grave concerns about the nurseries handling of this, and am seriously considering removing my child & reporting nursery to ofsted.
Anyone with any experience of HPA? Are they likely to have advised withholding info?
OP you aren't being too precious. I assume your 4yo has only one MMR jab? That makes your toddler about 90% (or is it 95%) immune. After the booster they get just before starting school, it will be 99% immunity.
Clementine, we are in west yorks.
Meditrina, that is good to know. I've worked myself up about this & was starting to think the nursery manager was not being honest. So she probably was told not to tell parents until it was confirmed.
Is confirmation different to diagnosis? Confused about both children having treatment but not confirmation? ?
OLTT, it's not that an individual child has a certain percentage of immunity - it's that 90% of children who are given the first jab will have full immunity ie. it will be effective in 90% of children. The booster is to catch the 10% that aren't immune after the first one. So after 2 injections 99% of children should be immune. There are still cases in children who have been fully vaccinated though as well as some 'measles-like viruses' so it may not be quite as effective as that.
Please can you tell me where in W. Yorks, I'm worried now!
bumble that's what I meant. Probably didn't come through well from my post. 90% will develop an immunity via the vaccine. I think it's like from the real sickness isn't it? I know for example, you might not develop a chicken pox immunity even if you have got it previously. That's why we hear about children who got it twice.
A higher percentage will have immunity after catching it naturally, same with chickenpox. Very few people will contract CP twice and even fewer will contract measles twice.
Standard procedure is to inform Hpa and await their guidance, however I was thinking about this the other day and as a nursery manager I would prewarn about suspected measles. As a parent I would want to know. However if nursery have indeed just followed how advice reporting to Ofsted will be pointless.
Two of my children and I had measles a few years ago. The Dr was sure that's what it was bit still be had to wait a few days for the testing kit to arrive from the HPA and then a couple of weeks for the test results for it to be confirmed.
Even if that is still the way it works there should have been a notice stating there were cases of suspected measles, look out for the following symptoms.
Measels should be reported, to the authority and the parents.
If a child has chicken pox, etc then the parent does not need to know who the child is, as the child was already contagious 10 days prior to the spots coming out, same as a child being sick parents do not need to be notified as it may be simply the child's lunch does not agree with them, they may have a bug, but that's part and parcel of nursery surroundings.
Ndna (national day nurseries association) say to inform parents of confirmed cases, issues then arise as a parent you would want to know so you can make informed choices, but cases may not be confirmed. I would inform of suspected cases but wouldn't have to until confirmed
YANBU! our nursery sent a letter home after 2 cases of scarlet fever so that we were all aware and what to look for. Regularly tell us about chicken pox and D&V bugs doing the rounds. I would not be happy with the attitude of the nursery.
I would be furious - they can advise of suspected measles case without breaking any confidentiality......
Even if your child is immunized - they can still contract the disease, which therefore puts the younger child at risk. No immunization is 100%
Where are these people's common sense, and care for the community (families) who use their service. It is astounding.
As soon as it is confirmed it is measles, you'll see the full notifiable disease procedures swing into force.
They do however wait until it is confimed it is measles - especially as doctors see so few cases nowadays and can get it wrong. Premature panic over eg rosacea would be totally wrong.
Surely when things like measles are suspected its best to err on the side of caution though to warn people?
OP, it sounds as if your nursery was following advice, so that should give you some reassurance.
I'm wondering what I could do, though, if my DC's nursery told me about 2 or even 10 suspected or even confirmed cases. What difference would it make to us? My kids would already have been exposed, they would already be immunised. I already watch my children's health for anything that needs a doctor.
Even if measles wasn't about, there are loads of other bugs that kids can get from people with no symptoms. You need to be vigilant all the time and accept that socialising has risks.
Why are people fussing about you needing to know from a nursery when info is not confirmed? Do they not take their kids to shops and play places and friends, and go in lifts etc etc?
When my dd had suspected measles about 2 years ago, the GP told me to tell no-one in case I caused an unnecessary panic. She said that if my dd did turn out to have measles then they would inform everyone concerned.
Thank you for all the helpful comments. It seems that I have been a bit U to be so cross, if the nursery staff are not allowed to inform parents of suspected cases.
However, I still believe that this policy is, to be blunt, effing stupid. The measles outbreak is real, across the UK. Unvaccinated children are at risk and it is potentially a serious illness. In the situation, parents now been made aware that there is a suspected outbreak & to look out for the early symptoms, and not to bring in children with those symptoms, to reduce the risk of contagion. However, this information was given on Thursday, 3 full nursery days after the second case emerged. If my child was in the baby room I would be raging, because I could have avoided any risk. Of course, other parents may have chosen to act or not, but the decisions about acceptable risk to each family were not possible because of the withholding of information.
As it is, I'm sure my children were not at risk this time. However, my baby is due to start nursery later this year, and I'm not happy that, if this or a similar situation were to arise again, the nursery would do the same again. In my view, this way of handling a suspected outbreak of a contagious, notifiable illness puts children at risk. So, I will pull my children from the nursery if they do not change their practice and policy, and also am drafting a letter to the HPA asking them to review this advice.
Thanks again to all who have helped x
Would you post any answer you get from HPA idc?
I see why parents would be worried (and am wondering how the pattern of confirmed cases may change as children return from the Easter holidays). But I do not see how anyone benefits by acting before it is known whether an illness is indeed measles.
The two children in question at the nursery have been admitted to hospital - is that right? It is very unlikely they would be admitted to hospital with roseola (is that what you mean Meditrina - not rosacea surely?)
I would ask the nursery directly what HPA advice document says that they cannot tell parents about suspected cases of measles. Have they actually told you what the source is for their advice?
Surely if they have been admitted, the cases will be confirmed and the procedures for notifiable diseases will have swung into action?
If it hasn't, perhaps it's not measles, or perhaps the information is now second/third hand and has changed a bit with each retelling?
Surely if they have been admitted, the cases will be confirmed and the procedures for notifiable diseases will have swung into action?
If it hasn't, perhaps it's not measles, or perhaps the information is now second/third hand and has changed a bit with each retelling?
The nursery manager says that someone at the HPA told her directly not to inform parents until measles was confirmed with lab testing. Both children have been in hospital & treated for measles, so I'm also confused about why there was a delay with confirmation. I have spoken with one mother & a friend knows the other, so i am very sure the children both have measles.
The nursery have now informed parents, & have confirmed one case of measles, one suspected.
Presumably treatment started without waiting for lab tests. I've known a child treated as if she had meningococcal meningitis, but the tests turned out to be negative. She could have died waiting for the test result.
I suspect this is BS or lack of organisation on part o nursery. If you Google there are a fair few letters on internet seemingly endorsed by HPA warning parents about suspected measles cases. I have a suspicion they might be trying to fob you off.....
They would be being treated for complications of measles - eg dehydration or pneumonia. They wouldn't need test results to confirm that measles was causing that before they treated it.
Even if measles hadn't been confirmed, if there was something going around nursery that was severe enough to have put the first two kids that got it into hospital, then I would certainly expect nursery to be sending home letters about the problem, the fact that it has already hospitalised two kids, symptoms to look out for and about going to see the gp as it can be really serious etc.
Even if they don't actually say that it is measles.
I don't think that is panic mongering - I think it is showing consideration for others that you and your family come in to close contact with regularly. It should also help to prevent people going out and about if they suspect there might be a problem, rather than thinking that it was just a bit of a cold and going out and then spreading it further.
I say that as someone who wasn't vaccinated against measles as a child - apparently there was a scare around the time I was due to get it so my mother didn't get me done, although she did get my younger sis done when she was ready as the scare had died down by then. She realised when I started back at junior school that I had missed my vaccination so rang up the gp, who ordered it and I went down for my appointment a few days later. I had a bit of a cold so he said it would keep in the fridge and to come back when I was healthy again.
next day was start of term - I was still a bit sniffly but nothing major so went into school. Couple of days later - cold hadn't gone and I was covered in spots - yep, come down with measles and managed to give it to quite a lot of kids in the school as I'd gone in whilst contagious (although I didn't know obviously at the time). It was a small town, same doctors practice saw everyone, so lots of people in my year hadn't had the vaccination. However, once the doctor saw that I had measles (back in the day when they did house calls!) they were able to tell school who were able to warn everybody and for a while if people had colds then parents were warned to be extra careful and keep them off maybe more than they would have done otherwise, so they didn't come and spread measles around even more. This was seen as better than going in regardless and assuming that it was just a mild cold that you had.
Reading reports about the current outbreak of measles, it seems that one of the things they are saying is that being vaccinated doesn't mean that you won't get measles but that if you do get it, it should be less severe than it would have been otherwise. It sounds like the version going around your nursery is causing severe problems (you wouldn't normally expect 2/2 cases to end up in hospital) so they should be alerting people to potential dangers
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