to be sulking with Game of Thrones (books) so not watch the programme? HUGE SPOILER ONLY FOR people who have read all the books

(225 Posts)
mamapants Wed 10-Apr-13 17:17:04

SPOILER DO NOT READ IF YOU Don't want to know what happens in last book so far

Am sulking cos they killed off JS! How could he? Don't know what he was thinking! So haven't watched series 2 or 3 yet. Just can't get excited anymore

snuffaluffagus Wed 10-Apr-13 17:18:15

You don't know he's actually dead though... I admit it doesn't look good, but I'm clinging onto there being a chance..

SorrelForbes Wed 10-Apr-13 17:20:52

No, I doubt very, very much that he's dead.

If its a cliffhanger, that sounds like a good omen to me

Havent read it yet though, just know what happens as I have no patience!
<goes back to book 2 chapter 1...>

WildlingPrincess Wed 10-Apr-13 17:24:01

I don't think he's dead.

adeucalione Wed 10-Apr-13 17:25:48

I don't think he's dead, and it wouldn't be the first time GRRM has employed a bit of misdirection (Bran and Rickon).

Cactuar Wed 10-Apr-13 17:37:28

I don't think he can be dead. He has to be one of the three heads of the dragon surely, along with dany. Not sure about the third yet. I think he is going to survive in ghost's body.

ImAlpharius Wed 10-Apr-13 17:40:46

YANBU I was very stroppy at the end of that book and am clinging on to the hopethat he will still be around somehow.
I am also getting a little impatient on a parenthood reveal, and if ti isn't Lyanna and Rhaegar I am going to stomp my feet a lot.

Cactuar Wed 10-Apr-13 17:53:23

He will definitely survive as there would be no point in the mystery surrounding his parentage which, as ImAlpharius has said has to be lyanna and rhaegar.

WildlingPrincess Wed 10-Apr-13 17:56:33

Don't we find out about his parentage in the next book? He needs to be alive for that! If it's not Lyanna and Rhaegar I will cry. It makes sense to me.

UnfortunateUsername Wed 10-Apr-13 17:58:14

Yep, totally not dead.

skaen Wed 10-Apr-13 18:04:58

I don't think he's dead but it still pissed me off. YANBU.


expatinscotland Wed 10-Apr-13 18:08:13

You don't know if he's dead.

Undertone Wed 10-Apr-13 18:11:00

Speculation for the third head of the dragon? Someone Dornish?

expatinscotland Wed 10-Apr-13 18:12:04

I'm fairly certain that Lyanna and Rhaegar were his parents because of that part of the book, when Bran is visited by the 3-eyed crow. He tell the maester his father was in the crypts last night. And he tells him that Ned was sad. When asked why, Bran tells him because of Jon and something to do with Jon's mother.

MummytoMog Wed 10-Apr-13 18:12:49

Totes not dead. Also surely Aegon is the third head right?

expatinscotland Wed 10-Apr-13 18:13:09

Dany, Aegon and Jon.

expatinscotland Wed 10-Apr-13 18:13:56

Maester Aemon is also not dead as far we know, and he, too, is a Targaryen.

MummytoMog Wed 10-Apr-13 18:17:06

Maester Aemon is dead. He died ages ago. Did I miss another resurrection?

expatinscotland Wed 10-Apr-13 18:20:22

Oh, shit, that's right, during the last book. I'm rereading them all again but am on Book 2.

Cactuar Wed 10-Apr-13 18:21:02

Aegon would seem to be the obvious choice for the third head but I really thought it was going to be a woman. does not seem to be a candidate for another possible targaeryan female though so probably will be aegon. Will be a bit disappointed if it is though as he is a bit of a drip!

I don't watch the series because it's crap

Barely any sign of the wolves, dany is blonde, js is a wanky kid with a chubby face, they're trying to make cersai likeable, arya is pretty, sansa isn't.

I don't mind them changing minor stuff but when they alter pivotal aspects of the books it's just irritating.

Js definitely isn't dead btw, grrm wouldn't do that to us grin

Remember he made us think the dragon was dead at the end of the last book and it was just misdirection.

catsmother Wed 10-Apr-13 18:28:55

Never mind JS, I'm more concerned that George RR Martin is going to die before he finishes the story .....

Cactuar Wed 10-Apr-13 18:31:32

Catsmother grin

snuffaluffagus Wed 10-Apr-13 18:51:06

I think he has the bulk of the next book written and outlines for the rest of the story. He's just spending loads of time on the TV series and then touring and doing talks and the like. Hopefully he'll get there eventually!

OzmaofOz Wed 10-Apr-13 18:53:01

He won't die, look at Lady Stoneheart and Berric.

expatinscotland Wed 10-Apr-13 18:55:34

What I want to know is where whores go.

OzmaofOz Wed 10-Apr-13 18:57:35

Bravos Maybe. D you think she could be the Sailors wife ?

OzmaofOz Wed 10-Apr-13 18:58:04

I am forever seeing links that are probably not even there, so probably not.

riskit4abiskit Wed 10-Apr-13 19:04:46

wont be dead, I wondered if his long lost uncle? Ranger who went missing over the wall would turn up and save him?

chocolateygoo Wed 10-Apr-13 19:04:52

As this is a spoilers thread can I sidetrack it and ask what happens to Ros the prostitute? Only been watching the tv series so far halfway through series 2, Joffrey made her do bad things to the other girl but not seen her since - does she reappear? I hate these loose ends, going to have to order the books in from the library!

Ha - I've just posted on another thread hoping that GRRM lives long enough to finish. grin

I haven't bothered watching the rest of series two becuase I found myself screeching "it doesn't happen like that" at the telly.

OzmaofOz Wed 10-Apr-13 19:26:24

Ross isn't in the books choc, there are a couple of people that she could be a mixture of or based loosely on, but nothing much happens to them as far as I can remember.

littletingoddess Wed 10-Apr-13 19:31:27

I also agree that the book is very ambiguous about whether or not JS has died. I also think he's a Targaryan.

expatinscotland Wed 10-Apr-13 19:38:10

Ros in the series is, from what I can tell, Chalalaya and her daughter Alalalya. in the books.

Stokes Wed 10-Apr-13 21:49:39

Ros is the Magical Whore of Exposition.

WorriedMummy73 Wed 10-Apr-13 21:56:22

Wtf have I missed? I've read those books THREE times and have completely missed the whole 'Jon's real parents' bit. Where is all this coming from? But then, I read stupidly fast and skim-read more than anything. I have been known to miss crucial parts and had to go back to find them...

Maybe Jon Sner needs a Maury DNA test - 'Lord Eddard, you are NOT the father!'. Cue Sean Bean dancing around the studio...

MadamFolly Wed 10-Apr-13 22:52:45

I think he is not dead.

I think he is the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen and that he will marry Dany and they will rule Westeros together.

ImAlpharius Wed 10-Apr-13 22:56:31

I really hope so. That is my dream.

MadamFolly Wed 10-Apr-13 22:57:05

Not sure where the Aegon storyline is headed. Am also confuzzled about what is going to happen with Catelyn now she is all zombiefied and stuff.

What the hell is Jaquen H'gar up to? Why is he pretending to be Pate? WHAT DOES HE WANT?

badtime Wed 10-Apr-13 23:17:01

He is a faceless man, and does what he is paid to do. What you mean is 'who hired him?'

Anyway, point of order: OP, you are sulking with 'A Song of Ice and Fire'. 'Game of Thrones' is only the first book.

Thank you.

mamapants Thu 11-Apr-13 08:14:29

I know but I thought using the name Game of Thrones would get more attention and my DSis has borrowed the books and couldn't remember the names of the individual books.

Am glad everyone is in agreement that John is alive though.

I can cope with the various killings of main characters but John Snow and Arya are non- negotiable in my eyes! Oh and Tyrion and Jamie Lannister.

thebitchdoctor Thu 11-Apr-13 09:11:16

I'm hoping Jaqen is Syrio Forel smile

MadamFolly Thu 11-Apr-13 10:17:32

I don't think so bitchdoctor. They are such different personalities, Syrio helped Arya to learn and grow whereas Jaqen was a ruthless serial killer who taught her nothing but death. I think it was also important to Syrio's character that he had a last heroic stand. I also don't think Merryn Trant was the type to spare someone who had been fighting him, more likely to have cut him down. Syrio was the first blade of Braavos, not a faceless man.

And I think GRRM has said its not true.

neriberi Thu 11-Apr-13 10:23:25

I don't actually think he's dead, I'm thinking that Melisandre will make sure he lives a la Mance Rayder style or that he will do a Catelyn Stark on us and come back to life to avenge those who killed him?

CheerfulYank Thu 11-Apr-13 10:56:20

He can't be dead; he is the song of fire (Rhaegar) and ice (Lyanna). And I don't want him to marry Dany because, eww. I know the Targaryens don't shy away from that sort of thing, but...

CheerfulYank Thu 11-Apr-13 10:57:15

I'm okay with Jaime biting it but not Tyrion.

LaQueen Thu 11-Apr-13 11:08:23

Noooo, Jaime can't bite the dust...he has to marry...of feck, whatshername, begins with B ...the strapping know her hmm

Stokes Thu 11-Apr-13 11:15:42

Brienne. But will she die? Can't say I think she will, but you never know.

It's funny, GRRM has this reputation for killing off main characters, but I can't think of a single point of view character since Ned who died (and stayed dead). I feel like there were a couple in the last few books that were brought in for a specific purpose and then killed, but they weren't really around long enough for us to get to know them very well (or in my case, care about them).

So no, I don't think Job is dead a) it's not really GRRM's style b) he is one of the heads of the dragon, the child of ice and fire as mentioned above and c) he's the only point of view character at the wall, so there's no way we're going to lose that perspective since GRRM has said there will be no new POVs.

Whathaveiforgottentoday Thu 11-Apr-13 11:32:51

Stokes I like your thinking. If there are no new Pov, then Jon has to live. I think he may well end up in ghost rather than in his body.

badtime Thu 11-Apr-13 11:37:19

People who are supposed to have died:
The Hound

People who have actually died: ?

snuffaluffagus Thu 11-Apr-13 12:09:42

I don't want Jon to be a wolf, one can't fancy a wolf.

neriberi Thu 11-Apr-13 12:10:46

I'm uber curious as to role that Bran plays in all this as well? I love his character in the books and also what happens to Arya? Once her sight comes back does she come back into the story proper again?

badtime Thu 11-Apr-13 12:11:04

He's. like, 15 in the books!

Velve Thu 11-Apr-13 12:47:55

I learned long ago to give up the notion of "favourite character" in the books. GRRM likes to either kill them all off or turn them into arseholes.
Mind you, that's what I really love about the books.
The best death by far, for me, was Tywin Lannister. I was a huge fan of the character in the books, actually, because he was a constant. He was unrelentlessly unpleasant while being totally sane, and I liked that.
Can't wait for the next book. But he'll probably keep us waiting again. Hopefully not as long as last time, though, as the tv series is so popular and fast paced.

LaQueen Thu 11-Apr-13 14:37:02

So, Jon Snow was stabbed 4 times...people in GoT have come back, from far worse wounds than that.

It's one of GM's quirks, playing with the concept of alive/dead e.g. Kal Drogo.

WhoPaintedTheLion Thu 11-Apr-13 14:45:36

I always feel a bit sorry for the newsreader when I read the books.

Xiaoxiong Thu 11-Apr-13 14:47:34

Stokes the problem is not so much that he kills off loads of main characters. It's that he introduces someone and lavishes loads of attention on them, so you start getting to know them, committing details to memory, and then 5 pages later they're offed. In retrospect, they're a very minor character, but you don't know that when they're introduced so there's a constant drumbeat of introduction of character -> extensive description -> they do something not terribly pivotal to the story -> bloody gory death description.

LaQueen Thu 11-Apr-13 14:55:10

Melanie Rawn used to do this in her books, and I did find it highly annoying.

Did she ever get around to writing the third book in her Captal's Tower series?

hairtearing Thu 11-Apr-13 14:55:20

I agree with you LaQueen we need a Jienne/Braime situation.

I haven't read the books far too lazy blush

I also wonder whats this awful thing that happens to the whores?.

LaQueen Thu 11-Apr-13 14:57:44

I worry myself, that I can find Jaime so attractive (though largely helped by the gawjus actor who plays him)...knowing he was cheerfully shafting his own sister for years, and merrily shoved a small child from a window ledge.

What does that say about me hmm

popebenedictsp45 Thu 11-Apr-13 15:19:33

I'm with worriedmummy, I read all the books but totally missed the JS parentage thing. Can someone please point out the bit that explained/hinted?

mamapants Thu 11-Apr-13 15:27:43

Is it true that no POV characters have snuffed it since Ned? I feel it can't be true but can't think of any and don't have the books to check.

Laqueen I also find it disturbing that I love jamie lannister. Hated him to start with. And now it seems I have forgiven all and think he's a bit of a hero.

OzmaofOz Thu 11-Apr-13 15:39:59

No that's not true mama pants.

hairtearing Thu 11-Apr-13 15:40:17

Jaime is good looking in a disney prince sort of way he reminds me a RL John Smith.
I wonder that too as he has the morals of an alley cat, but the episode when Cersei told Sansa about her labours and how he demanded to be present for each one made me warn to him a bit.

OzmaofOz Thu 11-Apr-13 15:41:23

Yes and I quite like Jaime too, he redeems himself in the books and becomes quite likeable.

Even more disturbingly, I prefer Jaime when he's grubby

MadamFolly Thu 11-Apr-13 17:21:23

It hasn't been explained pope its speculation but based upon certain facts like Ned never saying who his mother was, it was said that Ned made Lyanna a promise on her 'bed of blood' while she lay dying... to look after her baby? Also we used to think Rhaegar was evil and kidnapped Lyanna but actually it was Robert who thought that and not necessarily the truth. Rhaegar was meant to be really good, strong and beautiful, easy for a girl like Lyanna to run away and become his mistress, he was in an arranged marriage so he could have loved her.

MadamFolly Thu 11-Apr-13 17:21:41

Also Jaime looks like Prince Charming in Shrek.

CheerfulYank Thu 11-Apr-13 17:26:39

If you Google it there are all sorts of Rhaegar/Lyanna conspiracies out there. smile Which would make Dany Jon's aunt, eh?

Is there anyone left alive now who'd know Jon's true parentage if that were the case?

I'm meh on Jaime. Then actor's hot but he's just as bad As Cersei IMO, and everyone forgives him and despises her. Though he is kinder to Tyrion, and oh how I love Tyrion.

OzmaofOz Thu 11-Apr-13 18:00:18

Howland Reed would know cheerfull, hopefully we will meet him soon.
I think Cersei has grown on me too, that's what's so good aout the series - there are no bad guys.

popebenedictsp45 Thu 11-Apr-13 18:02:44

Ah, thanks Madam. I must admit I did a bit of skim reading with the last two or three books, I felt the momentum really dropped and some of the storylines got a bit dull.

Really looking forward to the next book. C'mon George!

And I disgreeabout Cersei not being a bad guy, she's bad to the bloody bone!

FuntimeFuschia Thu 11-Apr-13 18:03:35

I don't think Eddard is dead. I think he is a Warg and jumped into a birds body when he was offed by gobshite Joffrey. And I was even more convinced when in the tv show he very pointedly LOOKS AT SOME BIRDS just before he gets executed smile

I have never got over his death. Nearly stopped reading it and had to stop for a few days after the Red Wedding

expatinscotland Thu 11-Apr-13 18:04:42

YY, Howland Reed's the only other one who could possibly know. He may have told his son and daughter.

OzmaofOz Thu 11-Apr-13 18:05:28

I like that theory Funtime, I also wonder if Mormonts Raven is anyone. Maybe Benjen...

twinkbat Thu 11-Apr-13 18:05:41

Official comment from George when asked why was " oh so you think he's dead do you"

I reckon he's aziz whatever that melissandre thinks stannis is and he won't actually die, as there's stuff about how and when that match the prophesy as to how he would be reborn.

Aegon defo a fake, but I reckon tyrion isn't tywins & aerys raped his mother so he's Danny's brother. There's a few hints

FuntimeFuschia Thu 11-Apr-13 18:09:28

I suspect Benjen is the rider of the massive elk.

expatinscotland Thu 11-Apr-13 18:10:26

Benjen = Coldhands?

OzmaofOz Thu 11-Apr-13 18:13:07

Yes I have wondered if he could be Funtime, could be both if he is a warg.
I don't want Tryion to be a targ, I know what you mean about the hints but hope its a red herring.
I am also not too sure about Aegon, we will see.

CheerfulYank Thu 11-Apr-13 22:42:02

Jaime and Cersei could apparently also be Targ according to some online conspiracies. They'd fit right in, the pervs.

OzmaofOz Fri 12-Apr-13 08:34:18

grin the Pervs.

FuntimeFuschia Fri 12-Apr-13 08:57:52

I hadn't picked up on the idea of Jon Snow being the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, but it makes complete sense! Mind you, I hadn't clocked that the musician who helps release Reek Theon was Mance Ryder, so clearly I am spending too much time trying to resurrect Ned and not concentrating on characters who are still alive sad

PopMusic Fri 12-Apr-13 09:23:41

Has anyone read any of the "gift" chapter from winds of winter with Theon, Stannis and Asha? It's cracking.

JS is not dead, doesn't Mel see him in her fires turning into Ghost and then back into Jon?

Do you think Aegon is really a Targ or a secret Blackfyre? I kind of feel sorry for him.

Am I the only one who likes Theon?

PopMusic Fri 12-Apr-13 09:24:32

Oh, and I stopped watching GoT in series 2 because it was nothing like the books. They changed too much, way too much.

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 09:26:21

I thin making there be a mystery surrounding his parentage then killing off both him and everyone who would know the answer to the mystery is exactly the sort of thing that GRRM would do to us!

PopMusic Fri 12-Apr-13 09:27:10

I also don't think Benjen is Coldhands because the children of the forest say that he has been there a long time, and I can't imagine the children thinking that a few years is a long time.

PopMusic Fri 12-Apr-13 09:31:21

Trills. I disagree. In a way the whole series has been about Jon in a way. I can't see him being killed off at all. And if he is, you know he is going to come back in one form or another.

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 09:32:02

I also think that "wherever whores go" was a throwaway line that means "do I look like I give a shit?" and that it was never meant to be foreshadowy.

That said, apparently GRRM plans a lot less than some fantasy authors (Robert Jordan for example) so maybe he will work it in.

NeverTooManyCats Fri 12-Apr-13 10:39:09

Jon Snow will be technically dead, but will come back to life (either few minutes dead or some other explanation) as that will be the only possible way to get out of the Wall. There is far far too much to gain from that character and it has all been building up with JS.

I did think Benjen was Coldhands, im not 100%.

There was a rumour about Ned still being alive as the one who was executed was a faceless one. I can kind of see this happening.

It would be interesting to see who the other heads of the dragons would be. My hope is Jon Snow and Tyrion.

Does anyone else think Cat is a complete bitch?

WhoPaintedTheLion Fri 12-Apr-13 10:50:39

Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead.

I hope he stays dead. I hate it when everything works out merrily.

I have a half-arsed theory about Jon turning into a white walker somehow, who will then be burned by fire, killing the white walker part, but preserving the Jon part as he is immune to fire due to his Dragony bits.

I hope Arya gets her wolf back.

PopMusic Fri 12-Apr-13 11:54:07

Ned=dead. Definitely. Absolutely. Irrevocably. 100 percently.

OzmaofOz Fri 12-Apr-13 12:24:40

shock to the faceless man, Neds not dead rumour, I doubt very much it's true but I do love a good theory.
Jon isn't immune to fire, he burnt his hand when he killed the whight in agot. I am pretty sure GRRNM has said that what happened to Dany was very unique.

OzmaofOz Fri 12-Apr-13 12:25:24

Bloody sausage fingers - lots of typos.

mamapants Fri 12-Apr-13 12:26:08

Popmusic I also like Theon, find it heartbreaking what has happened to him.

FuntimeFuschia Fri 12-Apr-13 12:31:59

sad I will stand alone in my denial of Ned's death.

But I am greatly cheered by the thought of Jon Snow's dragony bits smile

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 13:19:13

Tyrion is referred to as 'Tywin's son' by his Aunt Genna, saying that Jaime was nothing like his father. There was also an incident on Tywins wedding night to Joanna, where the mad king may have forced himself on Joanna. Tyrion is definitely not a secret targ, and if jaime and Cersei are it may explain there sexual habits!

I personally would like to see Jon alive in Ghost form, and that he becomes a head of the dragon through his warg abilities rather than riding on it's back.

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 13:26:11

As the direwolf Ghost, not as a ghost....

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 13:41:18

Aunt Genna is talking about Tyrion being most like Tywin in personality, no indication that she thinks that anyone is not who they believe they are.

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 13:43:36

Funtime I will join you in the Ned's not dead club! I have to convince myself of it in order to continue watching and readingsmile. I suspect we may be disappointed though...

LaQueen Fri 12-Apr-13 13:44:40

To be honest, I quite like Cersei...yeah, she's a bitch, and ruthless...but, hey she loves her children. She's damned clever, too.

So, pleased she's not either an outright psychotic bitch, nor a mealy mouthed, maternal type.

It's great that she's many shades of grey wink

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 13:45:10

Ned is dead.

Yes Dave, Ned is dead Dave.

Ned is dead Dave.

Who's dead? Ned is.

What, Ned? Yes, he's dead.

Ned's really dead? Yes Dave, Ned is dead. Ned is dead Dave. Ned is dead dead Ned deadned.

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 13:46:28

I wouldn't accuse the show of "making Cersei nice" - they are just revealing her complexity and interestingness from the beginning, rather than waiting til she gets her own POV chapter.

In the same way (or maybe the opposite) Sansa comes across much more annoying in the show than i the books because we don't have her POV to help us to understand why she is how she is.

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 13:46:53

I do think it's going to emerge that Tyrion is the only true Lannister. Casterly Rock may be his yet! Adding patricide to Jamie's regicide and incest is really not going to go down well with the old gods is it?

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 13:47:59

Thanks for that trills grin

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 13:48:21

Trills I wasn't implying that she was talking about secret identities or mistaken parentage. I think that GRRM was asserting that Tyrion is a Lannister through and through, nothing else.

If a Lannister is not really a lannister it is more likely to be the twins. I personally don't believe they are Targs, but you can see why some people have come to that conclusion.

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 13:51:22

I think that her saying Tyrion is his father's true son is simply a comment on the personalities of Tyrion and Jaime, and not relevant to the "are any Lannisters secretly Targaryens?" question.

It could be GRRM making a point that Tyrion belongs to Tywin whether Tywin likes it or not. Or it could be GRRM making an ironic point that in some cases upbringing and circumstances are more important in what kind of person you are than genetics. Or it could be neither.

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 14:04:58

Glad we're in agreement then, Trills :-)

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 14:30:23

I remember when they were interviewing the actress who plays Cersei and she said, "I love her, I think she's misunderstood." smile

I think I despise her because I hated Joffrey so intensely.

Is Gendry Robert's bastard? Am I mixing up the real books and fan fiction again? blush

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 14:31:46

Oh yeah, he is. Ned knew. smile

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 14:32:18

Gendry is known to be Robert's bastard - Ned went to visit him when he was following up on "What was Jon Arryn doing and why would anyone want him dead?"

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 14:33:17

I actually like Sansa a lot. I want her to love Tyrion though, and she just WON'T.

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 14:35:25

I just remembered that Trills...something about a helmet was involved?

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 14:36:26

I know someone who knows the young fella playing Joffrey. Apparently in real life he's an absolute sweetheart and has had people shouting at him in the street! I still HATE Joffrey though. Agree on Sansa, I initially disliked her but when the going got tough she came through as a Stark. Also agree re. her and Tyrion!

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 14:50:55

I'm really dreading the Sansa storyline developing because I actually quite like her and I don't think her story will be a happy one (not that any characters are having a happy time!). I really hope that Littefinger leaves her alone but I won't be surprised if he does something vile to her.

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 14:53:31

I am the opposite, I am enjoying Sansa getting better at "playing the game" and learning and maturing and becoming more cynical smile

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 15:01:11

If she and Tyrion had a real marriage I think they'd rock the game.

Kyrptonite Fri 12-Apr-13 15:04:50

I've just finished the last book. There's a massive void in my life now blush

I'm slightly disappointed that there was nothing of Sansa in the last book. She was beginning to grow on me.

Also in denial about poor dead Ned. I loved him.

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 15:08:06

They are 'officially' married though aren't they? I know they didn't consummate the marriage but in order for either of them to have a happily ever after with anyone else does one of them has to die? I think Sansa will take Littlefinger out at some stage, he's grooming her to be his replacement Catelyn. Anybody any theories on where Arya is going to fit back into the main story again?

CheerfulYank Fri 12-Apr-13 15:12:30

Officially, but if they trusted each other and were allies they could do quite well, I think.

If Sans a can prove she's a virgin the marriage could be put aside.

Kyrptonite Fri 12-Apr-13 15:13:21

Little finger gives me the creeps. I kept shouting run Sansa he's grooming you at the books.

I don't really get Bran's role tbh. Unless he's just there so we can learn the truth about Jon's parentage.

TheCraicDealer Fri 12-Apr-13 15:14:09

I want Sansa and the Hound to get it together and for him to be, like, not a dick anymore.

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 15:16:31

I think if there's a genuine "baddie" in the story, it's Littlefinger. No beliefs, no loyalties and no conscience. But I quite like him, I think he's going to turn out to be behind more than we think. Still think Sansa's going to off him though.

Kyrptonite Fri 12-Apr-13 15:18:12

Varys shocked me. Just when I was starting to think that it was good Tommen had someone looking out for him and bam- crossbow ends that for him.

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 15:19:54

I reckon Arya will end up being an adversary of one of her siblings. The more removed from her Stark identity she becomes the more I see her as some potent dark force.

YY to Sansa and the Hound!

Oh my, I am rubbish at reading detailed books. I need to reread these books again!

kryptonite read Ben Aaronavitch books or The Hunger Games!

Kyrptonite Fri 12-Apr-13 15:28:31

I've read the hunger games. Will look at the other suggestion though before I get sucked into reading GoT fan fic or something!

WhoPaintedTheLion Fri 12-Apr-13 15:29:43

I am quite in love with Littlefinger. He's creepy, manipulative, a moral void, has a serious case of Napoleon complex. This worries me somewhat.

KittyLilith Fri 12-Apr-13 15:39:10

The theory about the executed Ned being a faceless man? I don't think that would work because as far as I can tell they wear the faces of dead people so to kill a fake Ned he'd have to be dead anyway.

I do love the books though. I'm another one watching Sansa's story with interest. She's grown on me over the series.

I love he actor who plays Tyrion and Jon Snow too.

I think I have missed lots of what has gone on.....!

RalphGnu Fri 12-Apr-13 15:43:46

WIBU to go to GRRM's house with a large pointy stick and prod him constantly until he finishes the next bloody book? I finished the last one yonks ago and am beginning to forget everything I've read.

Trills Fri 12-Apr-13 15:45:02
thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 15:45:34

Going back to the 'what is the point of Bran', I think he may become some sort of leader of the Children of the Forest/natural world and come to the aid of the people fighting the Others at the Wall. The First Men needed the aid of the Children to defeat them originally, and Bran is a link between the Children and the Nights Watch (I.e. sibling/cousin of JS)

RalphGnu Fri 12-Apr-13 15:47:09

Not at the moment he isn't, Trills, but he hasn't seen how pointy my stick is yet.

FuntimeFuschia Fri 12-Apr-13 15:47:13

Wasn't there something about the new and 'improved' Sandor Clegane needing a 'different' head? After his body had been messed with by the dodgy maester and then suddenly Cersei has a new giant protector...but with a head that needs changing...and there was a head previously in the series that went missing.
Curioser and curioser.

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 15:52:32

Funtime, that was Gregor "the mountain" Clegane.

FuntimeFuschia Fri 12-Apr-13 15:53:51

Yes, him smile

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 16:11:35

Love the Neil Gaiman rant smile. In fact I love Neil Gaiman full stop.

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 16:14:10

Me too Burtha, i tjink i want to marry him. I would love to see 'American Gods' turned into a film or series.

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 16:16:16

That would be amazing! I've been waiting impatiently for a Good Omens film to appear, Gaiman and Pratchett together is just gold! I've even got a cast selected already if any Hollywood producers happen to read this...grin

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 16:29:38

Who would be in your film?

There is no way Jon is dead. Has anyone mentioned the theories that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn?

BruthasTortoise Fri 12-Apr-13 17:00:49

Aziraphale would be a slightly younger Peter O'Toole, Crawley a younger Al Pacino. Famine I have pictured as Robert Downey Junior, Pollution is Mackensie Cook and War I'm thinking Uma Thurman with bright red hair but then her voice is slightly annoying. Anathema is Zoe Deschenal in my head and Newt would be Michael Cera, only English. I've a feeling this cast may never come together (given that it would take some manipulation of the space/time continuumsmile) but that's how I see it in my head!

I've really given this too much thought...grin

twinkbat Fri 12-Apr-13 17:03:39

haha funny someone mentioned American gods as a film or a TV show on this thread of all places.... HBO are making it. Neil is writing the pilot ep so hoping it'll be good.

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 17:04:36

Ha! Love it! Especially Newt being an English Michael Cera.

Sorry for derailing thread...

thepixiefrog Fri 12-Apr-13 17:05:41

Twinkbat, you truly are the herald of good news. I may have to marry you too.

twinkbat Fri 12-Apr-13 17:14:05

lol pixie, I might be ever so slightly gaiman obsessed. I met him once, total loss of the ability to speak. DH has already agreed if I can get Neil to agree I can marry him (neils wife response is ALWAYS if its ok with him its ok with me so...)

Twink... You'd have a fight on your hands, he's my all time biggest writer crush. I'm very envy you've met him.

An American gods series would be awesome, just hope it's done better than starburst, I was so disappointed in that movie.

LaQueen Fri 12-Apr-13 20:46:15

Anyone know if series 2 is being repeated on Sky, yet?

TheTiger Fri 12-Apr-13 20:58:54

It's on sky on demand! In the 'library' section.

mamapants Sat 13-Apr-13 08:52:37

Summerrain I think you've been eating too many sweeties. FWIW I enjoyed Stardust movie much better than the tv series of the book I can't remember the name of but with Door and London underground. Excellent book rubbish programme. Although my sisters kids do love it.

Twit Sat 13-Apr-13 22:37:08

I'm not convinced Jon snow has to be human or alive for us to find out about his parentals though. I'd like him to survive etc cos he's a bit of all right in the tv series cool and seems to be a good egg.
I've read to the last book and don't even remember Varys being killed blush. Is that right? I am re-reading it though and am on book 4, and still a bit confused about the beginning.
Where do you get your theories from? I'm so glad I found this thread my dh hasn't read the books and won't discuss past what's on the tv at this point sad

Kyrptonite Sat 13-Apr-13 23:08:08

Varys wasn't killed. He killed Kevan Lannister so I was moaning about that!

Twit Sun 14-Apr-13 08:51:42

Lol I thought I was going mad grin. Yes, i remember now i've caught ip on a bit of sleep, it did seem such a waste of an apparently decent chap. Once i read the theory on Jon's parents I see it too, but I also didn't pick up on Mance Rayder being the feller who rescued reeky theon. I could have sworn he was dead.
Does anyone else find they forget who is who a lot? I can't place pâté at all confused and I definitely did not get that he was jaw hen (who I really like). My problem is that I seem to race to get to the chapters of the ones I like, therefore missing alo t of info (clearly) which is why it's good I'm re-reading it all.
The three headed dragon thing, I wondered at Tyrion? So much had to happen to get him to Dany but he just seems to survive everything and with Varys and his ilk ' behind him ' it makes me wonder.
Little finger bumped off by Sansa is something I really really hope for, and I'm disturbed to find I like Jaime too, but I wonder how long he'll survive now that he's more decent? Brienne and losing his sword hand has been just what he needed it seems, and i don't want her to die (but she probably will).

expatinscotland Sun 14-Apr-13 10:36:26

The three headed dragon thing, I wondered at Tyrion?

Well, the red priest Morro prophesied about him, 'Dragons old and new, and you in the middle, snarling.'

Kyrptonite Sun 14-Apr-13 10:53:27

I'm re reading them all as I can't remember half of what's gone on!

I love Jaime. I fear I may need counselling as there's obvious issues there. I don't really like Dany. I'm not sure why though she's just trying too hard to be everyone's saviour I think instead of kicking ass and getting to Kings Landing.

Jaime will probably die won't he? Brienne had to say some words to zombie Catelynn that have ultimately done Jaime in.

Twit Sun 14-Apr-13 11:35:01

Yes, but I suppose a lion also might snarl. Oh and obviously I meant Pate and jaqen not pate and jaw hen hmm
Have just read the other thread hich is fab and i'm in awe at expats knowledge, and am off to google as I'm finding book four a bit hard going at the moment, I can't get into it IySWIM?

Twit Sun 14-Apr-13 13:05:16

I've just read the wiki thing about the books and I'm back to understanding it more. I have a question though, did robb actually legitimise Jon and make him heir, do we know what happened to the letter he sent?

Bearfrills Sun 14-Apr-13 13:56:03

Stannis offered to legitimise him, give him Winterfell and marry him to Val. He refused and stayed on as Lord Commander instead.

I'm wondering who Maergery has been boffing after the maester saying he'd been making moon tea for her (can't remember which book, it where her and Cersei get arrested by the High Septon)

expatinscotland Sun 14-Apr-13 14:37:07

Thing is, these red priests can sort of bring back zombies/sort of zombies from the dead - a la Thoros and Lord Berric, Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart. So even if Jon's dead, so to speak, Melissandre is conveniently close and I doubt she's going to want to be given over to Ramsay Bolton or allow Selese and Shireen to be given over to him.

Here's a part of the books I don't get. Davos the Onion Knight and Melissandre in the boat to take Storm's End from Ser Courtnay. And Melissandre gives birth to a shadow, and Davos know who it is. I'm assuming it's Stannis?! Anyone, anyone?

Bearfrills Sun 14-Apr-13 17:15:09

Is there anyone left alive now who'd know Jon's true parentage if that were the case?

Barristen the Bold, the ex-Kingsguard who is now serving Dany. I'm re-reading Book Three and he even makes a reference to a knight of the Kingsguard knowing all the secrets of his king and that those secrets now belong to Dany if she wants to hear them (and she said she doesn't. Yet.)

Bearfrills Sun 14-Apr-13 17:16:03

I think it's Stannis too but that he's not aware of it, like she's stealing his essence or something. I don't think she's a real priestess.

expatinscotland Sun 14-Apr-13 18:32:13

Howland Reed might know Jon's true parentage. He was the only one besides Ned to survive. 7 against 3 they were.

expatinscotland Sun 14-Apr-13 18:34:11

Remember, too, that Barbrey Dustin is extremely pissed off that Ned took his sister's bones back but buried her lord husband where he was slain, especially because she lost her virginity to Brandon Stark.

Whathaveiforgottentoday Sun 14-Apr-13 23:36:28

I thought it was Stannis too but I remembering re reading that bit after the tv show and it doesn't give any more info.
Can you explain the significance of barbrey Dustin?
I'm impressed with your knowledge smile

CoolCadbury Mon 15-Apr-13 13:32:50

Bearfrills. He is talking about Aerys, Dany's father. I don't think Barristan knew anything about The tower of joy. Like Expat says, Howland Reed is the only one who knows because he is "allegedly" the only survivor at the Tower of Joy (where Ned met his sister in her bed of blood).

Barbery Dustin says a couple of important things. She talks about ned and Brandon's father Rickard having "southron ambitions" and that Brandon never wanted to marry Catlyn but wanted her but he was bethrothed to Catlyn against his wishes but as it turned out he died. She was then supposed to marry Ned but Catlyn ended up marrying him. Barbrey married William Dustin who died at the Tower of Joy. She hated that Ned returned with his sisters bones but not her husbands. She also says Rickard's ambitions came from his maester and she is extremely suspicious and distrustful of maesters as a whole.

Twit Mon 15-Apr-13 16:04:08

I know he refused stannis' offer, I just wondering about robb's letter. They say reed is the only survivor but were there no servants at all? Rhaegsr and Lyanna were high born after all, and the highborn have a habit of not including the help in this sort if thing. (Like in gosford park)
Also is reed Jojen & meera's father or grandfather? And whether he is or not surely Jojen must know. Did ned send a letter from his cell via Varys to reed in dome sort of agreed wording to let him know what was happening, and did reed then send Jojen & meera's to winter fell? I get a bit lost wrt bran, it's not my favourite p.o.v. So I rush it

So many questions....

HeirToTheIronThrone Mon 15-Apr-13 16:23:07

I have just popped in to tell you all that I found out yesterday that my SIL was in the same year at school as the lovely boy who plays Jon Snow. Which means I basically know him grin

CoolCadbury Mon 15-Apr-13 16:24:00

Twit Yes, it's implied that Robb put Jon as his heir and this letter with all the details is currently missing in action. It's probably around the Neck, perhaps Howland Reed has already seen it. But Howland would know that Jon is not Ned's but Raegar's. Would he feel duty bound to set the record straight officially?

Would the North accept Jon as a king though, would people like Manderly rather have a puppet king (eg Tommen) than a king they could not control?

Howland is Jojen's and Meera's dad. I'm not sure Jojen would know about Jon, as he only sees things that are going to happen and what what would happen, plus his green dreams are very obscure.

And I don't remember Ned writing a letter, was it in the book or in the TV series?

CoolCadbury Mon 15-Apr-13 16:26:24

Oh as for servants at the Tower of Joy? not sure. Wylla might have been there. We know she was Jon Snow's milk mother for sure.

expatinscotland Mon 15-Apr-13 16:27:04

Howland is Meera's and Jojen's father, IIRC. Bran, being a greenseer, may be able to find out if Jon is Lyanna's as he can see the past.

sapphirestar Mon 15-Apr-13 21:21:08

Heir i will be your bff forever and ever, pinky swear and everyfink if you can introduce me to Kit Harington!!!!!

Twit Mon 15-Apr-13 22:34:21

I thought it was in the book but I might be getting confused. I think when asked if he would deliver the letter Varys replied that he would read it first before deciding what to do with it.

CoolCadbury Mon 15-Apr-13 22:38:06

Yes, I vaguely remember this now you mention it. It's been so long since I read GoT though.

expatinscotland Wed 17-Apr-13 00:21:03

It was in the book, that letter.

When Dany follows Pyat Pree into what becomes The Palace of Dust, she sees her brother, Rhaegar. He plays a harp with silver strings. Jorah confirms that her brother had a harp like this and played it. She tells him of her vision of Rhaegar, with his son Aegon, and how the former said of his son, 'His song is of ice and fire,' and how when he, Rhaegar, sees her, and he remarks, 'But the dragon has three heads.'

So who are the three heads?

The command of the dragons will be interesting, because Euron Greyjoy gave the Dragonhorn to his brother Victarion, and the red priest Morro tells him how to use it. Yet, when Quentyn sets Rhaegal and Viserion free, that woman is there, what the hell is her name?, and Quentyn sees the two dragons eyeing her and recognises that they are looking for their mother, Dany. Drogon, of course, recognised Dany in the fighting pit. It will also be interesting to see what happens because of course, the bloodrider who took off with the greatest number of men from Drogo's khal is the one who finds her with Drogon.

Twit Wed 17-Apr-13 07:14:59

Is he definitely referring to aegon? Or could he be talking about Jon? A lot of people seem to thinking its a given that Jon is ice & fire in one person, that he is pretty much certainly Lyanna (ice) and rhaegar's (fire) son. Does that mean he is one of the heads; two?
The problem with Jon is (after reading a bit on the asoiaf website) he is a favourite with the fans, they want him to be. I'm not sure he will be, that we need to think more out the box so to speak. Of course he might be the chief head if the dragon I guess.....

I'm curious about Dany and cersei's prophecies/ curses though.

expatinscotland Wed 17-Apr-13 09:03:32

He just looks at her and tells her the dragon has three heads. At first she mistakes him for Viserys because of their hair, but Rhaegar's eyes are indigo where Viserys's were lilac.

Fecklessdizzy Wed 17-Apr-13 09:58:22

My dark minions are totally convinced that no-one dies in their own chapter so Jon not gone yet ( unlike Ned, who's dead, baby ) I reckon he's one of the heads of the Dragon, along with Dany ( naturally ) and my money's on Tyrion for number three ( no proper reason, just a feeling, I do love the little bugger! grin )

I think Jon will be rescued by the wildlings, not Stannis ... Mind you I'm not fussy, just as long as someone rescues him!

I'm more worried about GRRM dropping off the twig before he's sorted everything out ... I think we should go and start shoving industrial strength statins and healthy snacks through his letterbox forthwith...

Twit Wed 17-Apr-13 10:40:05

You know, I'd prefer it if it was the wildlings tbh.
Didn't cat die on her pov chapter?

I feel a bit bad taking over mamapants' thread with my confused ramblings, should I/ we start our own, or is there already one out there (had a quick look but can't see any) ?

aldiwhore Wed 17-Apr-13 12:11:40

If JS is dead, then Mr Martin has other plans... it's no fairytale after all smile Perhaps he'll become a sexy whitewalker?

Arya is the one to watch I think. Danarys (sp) is doing my head in now, and I actually am hoping she'll cop it at some point. She's gone from hero to zero through pretty rubbish decision making and distractions.

Tyrion I adore of course... his and Arya's story's are the best by far.

I do want to know what will become of Jaime now he's met up with Brienne again, and gone off to see Catelyn (so hard to write this without too many spoilers).

While you're waiting for Mr Martin though, if you've not already read Jo Abercrombie's booksThe First Law (The Blade Itself). Similar enough to like and in some ways (imo) a little better than The Song of Ice and Fire.

I'm not actually sure it's possible to 'spoil' GoT with 'spoilers' as it twists and turns so much... I was told to watch out for the Red Wedding, and yes it was shocking and I new I was there when it happened, but there's a few red herrings isn't there?

I love the fact the there's no real clear cut goodies and baddies, the edges blur a lot, I want to shout with rage at some of my 'heroes' and often feel compassion for their enemies. Even Theon.

Fecklessdizzy Wed 17-Apr-13 13:02:35

Twit Oh shit, she does, doesn't she! Aaargh! ( put not your faith in nerdy nephews sad ) Cat's not exactly dead though, just zombieficated ( clutching at straws )

expatinscotland Wed 17-Apr-13 14:16:53

This is a spoiler thread smile.

Catelyn didn't die in her own POV chapter. The ravens started raking her face and the hair Ned loved and then the chapter ended and you find out what the Freys cut her throat and dumped her naked corpse in the river in a mockery of Riverrun's funeral customs. We learn that from Tyrion's chapter.

Dany saw the Red Wedding in the Palace of Dust, though, same as she saw Rhaegar with Elia and Aegon and he told her the dragon had three heads.

Dany's survived so many attempts to whack her off, though.

expatinscotland Wed 17-Apr-13 14:17:51

Baelish, I think Sansa's going to have to top him off. She hasn't killed a one yet and Arya's gone through dozens.

Twit Wed 17-Apr-13 16:23:56

Ah that'd be so cool, I really hope she does, and I'd like her and/or Arya to do in Cersei, once Dany has shown her what a real woman in power looks like. Maybe with Tyrion looking on

Ooh, I wonder if Dany, Arya and Sansa could be the three dragons.

In my head I thought Cat's last thought was of something hot and red or maybe cold and red which is what I assumed to be her throat being cut? However as i have only read it a couple of times a while back i probably have it wrong smile
But as she isn't actually dead dead anyway, maybe JS is safe or at least 'aliiiive' <throws feckless a bone>

CoolCadbury Wed 17-Apr-13 19:00:16

Dany's POV iN the last book was excruciating for me. She totally lost her way (lovesick teenager anyone?) but at the end of the book, she seems to have got her fire back and that scene where she is with Drogon and the khal (Jhogo?) turn up - you know she has all the power.

And you contrast that with Jon who also assumes power. He starts out really strong but ends up being betrayed. The difference (or one of the key differences) is that she has a core of loyal people and advisors around her whereas Jon sends all his loyal supporters away.

I didn't see the point of Quentyn's POV much though. I guess the consequences of his death will have more impact on future storylines.

Do you think Aegon will sit on the Iron Throne? I reckon he will, briefly anyway.

CoolCadbury Wed 17-Apr-13 19:01:56

Sorry about the random thoughts grin.

And if you start a new thread, let me in on it twit

Bearfrills Wed 17-Apr-13 20:26:23

Me too, please post a link to any potential new thread smile

Twit Wed 17-Apr-13 22:12:45

Ok, so where should it go? <excited> I've never actually started a thread people might actually read participate on wink

expatinscotland Thu 18-Apr-13 01:05:15

Dany is only 16 at the end of the books. And yy, she grows into her own. Dany controls her son, Drogon. And her other two, well, they were looking for her, their mother.

Jon himself is about 18 or 19.

I don't find her irritating at all, but more someone who grows into the role.

Still, at the end of the books we have Ser Kevan Lannister killed, by Varys' strange children and he tells him it is for someone, whom he identifies as male, who has come to rule not because he believes it is a right but because he knows it is his duty.

Dany had a vision of a man dying of grey death, in the Palace of Dust.

The letter, the letter Ned wrote is quashed, we never know what it says at all.

Is Jon Snow the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Who knows.

expatinscotland Thu 18-Apr-13 01:05:40

Targaryens took more than one wife.

expatinscotland Thu 18-Apr-13 01:13:24

She comes across far better in the books, IMO. She never forgets, that a queen's people before herself.

expatinscotland Thu 18-Apr-13 01:20:08

And from what I see in the clips, they don't have Drogon with her in the House of the Undying. He is in the books when she makes that journey, and flies with her. And her Dothraki handmaid Jhaqui comes after, and puts a bell in her hair and she reflects, that the victory was Drogon's. It was Drogon who put fire to the Undying.

Kytti Thu 18-Apr-13 05:22:22

Oooh - coming to this so late but also a huge fan. I had NEVER even thought that Jon could be Lyanna's and Raegars... what a corker! Of course! Makes a lot of sense. I was devastated when his mother appeared to be some woman who gave Ned a lift on the lake. I was like "Really?! Is that it?!"

Dany - for the love of God get the hell out of the slave cities and get to Westeros!

Jon not dead? Squeeee!

And I really worry about Tyrion and Jaime. Why Oh WHY did Tyrion take credit for killing Joffrey? I mean, I get the old 'may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb' but to the only person that likes him? Really? If GRRM kills them off I'll go into full mourning.

twinkbat Thu 18-Apr-13 14:30:59

Kytti if I remember the sequence of events right that's after jaime admits that tysha WASN'T a whore paid by him, but a girl who really loved tyrion, and jaime had never said and let his father do what he did. That had to hurt, so I reckon tyrion taking the blame was a bit of a fuck you response iykwim

expatinscotland Sun 21-Apr-13 03:12:54

Here is something to remember from the books: Danaerhys Stormborn taught her children a command they obey for her. Dracyrys. In High Valyrian, she taught them to breathe flame.

bringmeroses Sun 21-Apr-13 09:27:18

Marking place!

Twit Sun 21-Apr-13 13:34:42

Oh I'm looking forward to the (next?) episode where she uses that word.

Trillz Mon 22-Apr-13 08:44:02

Dany saying "we are not men" in reply to "Valar Morghulis" sounds a little as if she has read Lord of the Rings and thinks that since she is more magic than Eowyn she can do anything.

Fecklessdizzy Mon 22-Apr-13 09:17:52

Dany is great, I can't wait for her to roll up with her dragons and her blood riders and smack all the squabbling houses into shape ( hope springs eternal emoticon ) I need a female character that isn't Mad, Bad or Terminally Drippy! grin

Trillz Mon 22-Apr-13 09:35:20

If you've read the books she unfortunately gets a bit drippier than she is right now.

Fecklessdizzy Mon 22-Apr-13 09:59:11

I was thinking of Sanza - who's soggier than a milk sandwich - Dany is the only one of all the various wannabe rulers who gives a flying fuck about the the cannon fodder - which is bad news for her prospects but makes her a lot more likable!

expatinscotland Mon 22-Apr-13 10:00:52

She gets drippy for a bit, but at the end of the last book she finds her mettle again!

Sansa isn't soggy, she's just very young - 13 - and has been abused in the extreme and has had quite a bit of trauma. Even Tyrion recognises this and doesn't hold it against her.

Fecklessdizzy Mon 22-Apr-13 10:36:13

I know, I know ... But I'm dying for her to start channeling Arya a bit and shove Little Finger out of the moon door before her pounces and turns her into Cat2.

Fecklessdizzy Mon 22-Apr-13 10:37:36

Eh? Before he pounces ... Sorry!

Fecklessdizzy Mon 22-Apr-13 10:58:51

Thing is ... I reckon Little Finger is going to turn out to be a real threat. He's like Henry Tudor at the end of the Wars of the Roses - no real claim but waits until everyone else has fought themselves to a standstill and then pops up and snatches power. He's got an impregnable fortress and the only Stark not dead or MIA. Definitely one to watch - tricksy scumbag that he is.

blush Um ... I do need to get out more, don't I?

Trillz Mon 22-Apr-13 11:19:17

Even in the show you can already see Sansa starting to harden up and learn to play the game - just before the battle of the Blackwater she delivers a beautiful "fuck you" to Tyrion (and I think he appreciates it).

It goes something like:
"I shall pray for your safe return, my lord"
"Will you?"
"Just as I pray for the king"

bringmeroses Mon 22-Apr-13 14:44:42

I absolutely loved the books but was interested to read what someone said about GRRM - that he does not plan very much – there are so many unanswered questions and loose ends, I am wondering how he is going to tie most of them up to people's satisfaction in that last two books. Also very much hoping for his continuing good health !
I can't believe JS would die, he has too much of an interesting story line, surely?
A part of me would like the author to get together with a collective of writers, plan the storylines for the next 20 books or so, and keep them coming! There seems to be enough material…!

expatinscotland Mon 22-Apr-13 15:22:53

Sansa does start to wise up about Tyrion in the books once she gets a dose of Lord Robert Arryn and Petyr, and thinks to herself that she'd prefer to share a bed with Tyrion than either of them.

expatinscotland Mon 22-Apr-13 23:53:18

Remember it will take a High Septon and a Council of Faith to annul the marriage, even unconsummated. Tyrion's first was so annulled, but not so his marriage to Sansa. Petyr knows he cannot marry her himself until such is done, and certainly from the books it appears she has already had a change of heart.

expatinscotland Mon 22-Apr-13 23:54:16

Also, both Petyr and Willas's younger brother tell her that Tyrion would make a much better husband to her.

expatinscotland Tue 23-Apr-13 00:43:18

And also I see in the telly series she first used 'Dracarys' differently. In the books, she first shows it off to Ser Jorah, when they are at sea, and the first time when she claims The Unsullied. Then she commands Drogon, and Rhaeghal and Viserion follow suit.

But GREAT scenes on YouTube.

In the books, she challenges Whitebeard. 'Do you know what it is like to be sold? I do. My brother sold me for a crown,' and explains how it may have gone differently.

She's much better in the books, IMO and more like both Jon Snow and Aegon, rules as a duty and not a right.

expatinscotland Tue 23-Apr-13 01:13:27

And remember what the Whore of Volantis tells Tyrion, 'The slaves of Volantis wait for her.'

expatinscotland Thu 25-Apr-13 01:01:00

She commands at least Drogon, the largest of the three, Balerion reborn. And the other two, even as Quentyn released them and they saw the other woman, he recognised, they were looking for Danaerhys, they were looking for their mother.

She went drippy, but she seems to have got over that, and be a queen.

It matches up with both Aegon, whom Varys told Ser Kevan, he comes to rule not as right but of duty, and with Jon Snow, who has consistently done the same. Jon Snow has always put the good of The Watch and the realm above himself, and, it would seem, die for it.

But a dragon is born in fire, and that's one thing Melissandre has.

Twit Thu 25-Apr-13 16:32:33

Do you think melissandre looks like Victarion's arm in reality? (Was it Victarion who got reborn and got a charcoal stump? Or have I mixed him up.

You know whT would be cool, if we could al read the books together so tat every one can point out all the clever stuff I am clearly missing blush
(See pig boy pâté )
<also needs to get out more emoticon>

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 25-Apr-13 18:16:54


I have convinced myself he's not really dead though. He must be the ice part right? Song of Ice and Fire...Jon and Danaerys?

Fecklessdizzy Thu 25-Apr-13 19:43:18

I'm fairly sure he's not ( substitutes desperate hope for logic ) as it would blow a huge hole in my the-only-rulers-worth-having-put-their-people-before-themselves-and-must-therefore-be-Dany-Jon-and-Tyrion theory and totally break my heart. grin

expatinscotland Sat 27-Apr-13 02:08:09

There is also that very white blond, purple-eyed, so-called Dornishman Ned Deyne, heir to the older brother of Ser Arthur Deyne, Lord of Starfall, whom Arya meets when she is with Lord Beric's men before Sandor Clegane takes her. The one who tells her, that Willa was wet nurse to Jon Snow, and of the partial story of his brother's sister, his aunt, the Lady Ashara Deyne, and Ned Stark. He leaves out the full story of Barristan Selmy/Aristan Whitebeard, that Ashara gave birth to a stillborn daughter before casting herself in the sea.

Harwin, son of Winterfell's master of horse, backs him up, and reminds her that Brandon Stark was still alive when Ashara Deyne came to know Ned Stark at Harrenhal, and that at the time neither of them was promised to anyone, and how Catelyn was first promised to Brandon.

Daenrys loses her head only momentarily, but not really so much, in the books. She is still always about her people and her duty, and stamping out the slave trade, as that memorable scene between her and Aristan Whitebeard/Barristan Selmy when she tells him, 'Do you know what it's like to be sold? I do,' and tells him of how her brother sold her to Khal Drogo, and that it could have gone so differently, but Khal Drogo made her a queen.

It fits with Aegon and even with Jon Snow as well. Both think always first of the realm, even if it is unpopular.

expatinscotland Sat 27-Apr-13 02:10:53

It also fits with how Drogo's khal finds her, with all his riders, in full command of Drogon.

expatinscotland Sat 27-Apr-13 02:35:53

His ko, rather.

But she has ridden Drogon, and Rhaegal and Viserion are loose via Quentyn Martell. They are and always were smaller than Drogon, but even Barristan Selmy knows if you restrict dragons they will not grow as large.

It is definite that Tyrion Lannister knows this, too, hence the Red Priest of R'hollor's prophesy that he would live, to see 'Dragons old and new, and you in the middle, snarling.'

Will they respond to her or the horn Euron gave to Victarion? Rhaegal and Viserion look for their mother, according to the last of Quentyn Martell. He sees their eyes searching the other girl and realises they are looking for Dany.

She is the one, who figured out that telling them 'Dracarys' in her voice called them to release dragonfire, as before that she was chopping up their meat and charring it on a brazier. She introduces her find to Jorah when they set sail for what became Astapor. Though her Dothraki call it out, at the close of the books it appears at least Drogon responds only to her voice.

Then there's the whole R'hollor thing, and Martin has said the next book is going further north. The R'hollor priests and priestresses have all spoken of the other threat, whose name cannot be spoken, and Osha was about how Robb was marching the wrong way, that the real threat was from beyond The Wall.

But Targaryen is blood and fire.

Daenrys comes of VERY strong in the books. But so does Jon Snow. Little do we know of Aegon but Varys says he is for the realm not himself, and he does go against Lord Jon Connington. He makes a break, and goes to march to King's Landing, and that his aunt can meet him there.

If I had to wager, it is Dany, Aegon and Jon Snow to ride, Tyrion as Lord of Casterly Rock with his wife, Sansa Stark, who is already wising up, Bran as lord of Citadel, Rickon as head of Kingsguard, Arya as Lady of Winterfell.

Engelsemama Sat 18-May-13 18:18:40

Saw this thread last month and (not having read any of the books) didn't read it. Downloaded the books instead and have spent the last month ignoring all marking and housework. Now feeling slightly bereft. Do we really have to wait 2-3 years for the next one? shock

Though, having read this thread I think I need to g back and re-read the books as I feel like I've missed stuff!

GiveMummyTheWhizzer Sat 18-May-13 18:56:28

Love these books, just re-reading the last one. Can anyone tell me the whereabouts/dead or living status of Gendry at the end of the last book please? I've confused myself!! Thanks!

I can't remember, was gendry still with the brotherhood?

Engelsemama Sun 19-May-13 07:51:04

I think the last time we saw Gendry he was in that inn looking after lots of children and smithing for the lightning lord. Brienne came across him and then she was attacked by Biter and his crew (someone was posing as Hound).

I was very confused when Brienne turned up to get Jamie in the last book as I thought that the lightning lord/zombified Catelyn Stark had killed her confused

vintagecakeisstillnice Sun 19-May-13 08:51:51

Flipping hell.

I'm going to have to reread the books having read this thread. I thought I had a handle on them. . .

HotPanda Sun 19-May-13 20:28:36

I always thought Gendy was possibly one of the heads as there was mystery about his parentage. Or have I missed something?

Gendry is a baratheon bastard, definitely not targaryan. Jon snow is the only potential targaryan that we don't know about.

So, who watched last night? Awesome episode. It would appear that daenarys doesn't have a no tits clause after all! Glad they gave daario normal hair. And shae is so much more likeable in the show than the book, I will be so sad when she betrays tyrion.

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