to be sick of the misogynist 'ding dong the witch is dead' stuff?

(154 Posts)
sieglinde Wed 10-Apr-13 11:27:11

Look, I didn't like her either, but the misogyny of some of the retweetings and facebookings of 'ding dong the witch is dead' are really annoying me.

FFS. She wasn't a witch, and if you lot are simpleminded enough to cast yourselves as a. munchkins or b. witchhunters, then you are bringing the left into disrepute.

Stop it. Stop it now.

everlong Wed 10-Apr-13 11:29:27

Agree.

Rainbowinthesky Wed 10-Apr-13 11:29:34

Hear, hear.

DeepRedBetty Wed 10-Apr-13 11:30:22

Oh god yes... I've actually defriended a couple of people on FB over this - so bloody puerile!

TheYamiOfYawn Wed 10-Apr-13 11:32:56

Yes. I hated her politics, and I thought that she was a pretty despicable human being. But I'm not liking the witch stuff at all.

HollyBerryBush Wed 10-Apr-13 11:37:05

Apparently it's been released as a single and will probably be No 1 this week.

shock

WheresMyCow Wed 10-Apr-13 11:37:21

Haven't actually been on fb since Monday as was fed up of reading this type of thing every few posts.

Completely agree.

Maggie111 Wed 10-Apr-13 11:39:14

It's would disagree it's misogynistic but it is in very poor taste.

Fargo86 Wed 10-Apr-13 11:39:29

What could be more anti-Thatcherite than spending money on an MP3 single?

I'm from the NE and despised her politics, but on Monday a frail old lady died, a family lost a Mum/Grandma. Her hideous legacy still lives on - nothing to celebrate on either count. Disrespectful and childish.

BlueFishWonder Wed 10-Apr-13 11:45:51

I just don't get it. If you didn't like her politics then the time to celebrate was when she lost political power, not now. What those people are crowing over now is the death of a frail, old lady who was a wife, a friend, a mother and a grandmother.

the last few days I have been shocked by a number of social mob like demonstrations of callousness and destructiveness!! I have not been proud to be British recently, I am ashamed of the mob mentality we seem quick and happy to demonstrate!

BrandiBroke Wed 10-Apr-13 11:55:06

One of the managers in my office keeps singing that. If I wasn't temporary through an agency I would complain as I think it's very disrespectful.

Latara Wed 10-Apr-13 12:14:55

It is all very misogynistic so YANBU.

I'm left wing so no fan of her politics but she died a frail old woman with dementia - the time for celebrating was when she left office and that is all.

I'm shocked that a Barnado's shop was smashed up after she died as part of the 'celebrations' - wtf?
It's worrying that there are people just using her death as an excuse to riot.

sieglinde Wed 10-Apr-13 12:16:05

Just to be clear, I find the 'witch' appellation especially ludicrous and offensive.

LessMissAbs Wed 10-Apr-13 12:16:50

Its quite symptomatic of the abusive behaviour in general life that now passes as the norm. I really try not to do it myself.

WildlingPrincess Wed 10-Apr-13 12:18:36

It sickens me. At least it's helped get rid of some facebook trash.

Bartlebee Wed 10-Apr-13 12:19:20

I agree.

It's totally pathetic.

specialsubject Wed 10-Apr-13 12:20:50

the rent-a-mob will be out in force on the 17th -any excuse for a piss up and some destruction. I doubt that any of them could name Thatcher's policies or form a logical argument as to why they were good/bad. They are just sheep following the latest fad.

she left parliament 21 years ago and had no effect on the country after that. Any 'celebration' should have been done then.

not happy about this expensive funeral though!

SelfRighteousPrissyPants Wed 10-Apr-13 12:21:36

I don't think it's meant to be misogynistic by most people saying it, if there was a corresponding male reference in a film I'm sure people would use it about Tony Blair if he died.

I'm sure Thatcher would rather see vitriol than be described as a frail old lady! I'm wishing I'd posted that instead of the ding dong thing as she would have been far more offended.

Gingerodgers Wed 10-Apr-13 12:24:50

She ruined a lot of people's lives. They are allowed to express themselves however they see fit. I think the fact that this single is expected to be number one reflects that.

Fargo86 Wed 10-Apr-13 12:27:25

A lot of people ruined their own lives and blamed Thatcher for it instead of blaming themselves.

WMittens Wed 10-Apr-13 12:28:07

Please can someone explain why 'witch' is misogynistic?

Rainbowinthesky Wed 10-Apr-13 12:29:26

Sadly there is a certain section of our society that use any excuse for a riot without actually understanding what they are rioting about.

sashh Wed 10-Apr-13 12:29:33

I pointed out to someone yesterday that it wasn't fair to witches.

DeepRedBetty Wed 10-Apr-13 12:31:42

Mittens... witch is used as a derogatory term for females, usually older and not particularly attractive ones. Can you ever say that you've muttered 'evil old witch' about an elderly ugly MAN under your breath?

Thought not.

LessMissAbs Wed 10-Apr-13 12:31:48

WMittens presumably because its a term used derogatively to refer only to females, implying a deviation from accepted social female norms.

TheNebulousBoojum Wed 10-Apr-13 12:43:04

Well, the IRA tried dropping a hotel on her and that didn't work.

As for miserable old witch, mean old cunt, bitchy twat, these are all common insults used on MN to describe older women that the poster has had a disagreement with. Unpleasant, whichever woman is the target

Ullena Wed 10-Apr-13 14:13:37

Really Boojum? You really think that was appropriate in any circumstances? FFS...

<blows raspberry at loopy Dingdongers>
<gets back to polishing cauldron>

WMittens Wed 10-Apr-13 15:05:47

DeepRedBetty

Mittens... witch is used as a derogatory term for females, usually older and not particularly attractive ones. Can you ever say that you've muttered 'evil old witch' about an elderly ugly MAN under your breath?

Thought not.

I would interpret the connotation of the remark as 'evil' rather '{derogatory sentiment} female'. It is not an insult to MT because she was a woman, but rather the commenter's disapproval of her actions.

You wouldn't hear it said about a man because 'witch' (generally) refers to a female; the masculine equivalent is 'warlock'.

I don't think it's misogynist.

Moominsarehippos Wed 10-Apr-13 15:19:45

I am irritated by these babies who must have been at primary school/not born yet when she was in power. These people aren't protesting a out the 'bedroom' tax, or any of the other crappy policies, tax rebates, etc. it's just an excuse for people to pratt about and do a bit of looting.

We protested against Maggie in the 80's ffs.

KellyElly Wed 10-Apr-13 15:33:45

I don't think it's misogynist Quite! In poor taste maybe but not misogynistic.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 15:39:07

A lot of people ruined their own lives and blamed Thatcher for it instead of blaming themselves.
The same could be said of anyone who had difficulty. However, Thatcher really did ruin many, many lives, Fargo

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 15:41:46

I am irritated by these babies who must have been at primary school/not born yet when she was in power. These people aren't protesting a out the 'bedroom' tax, or any of the other crappy policies, tax rebates, etc. it's just an excuse for people to pratt about and do a bit of looting.
If it moves people to become politically engaged, it may be a good thing. Oh, and the looting happened in the eighties too.
It is people protesting about a legacy, the policies are perpetuating those which she initiated.

Quite agree Dawndonna.

sieglinde Wed 10-Apr-13 15:56:53

The POINT is that it's a derogatory term which is ONLY applied to women. That's what sexism IS. smile

"Misogyny is different from sexism, which is not based on hate. Sexists want to give different rights and roles to women and men, but not because there is something wrong with either sex. Sexists think it is natural or right that sexes have different rights and roles. They believe God or nature has made women and men different and therefore they belong to different roles in society"

Only taken from Wikipedia but I have to agree.

Sexism can be applied to males or females, misogyny can not. smile

I cannot regard it as misogynist. Misogyny is hatred of women - ALL women. This is about MT - one woman. The hatred being expressed is personal, not misogynistic.

Moominsarehippos Wed 10-Apr-13 16:53:04

But a lot of the protesting is 'protest lite'. They are just doing it for fun, not for any deep seated ideological reason, of feelings of social/economic discontent. The faces I see aren't ex-miners or people from communities that used to have industry long gone (as I am actually). Our town gave itself a boot up the arse and other industries grew up in place of those lost (to cheaper foreign imports - we couldn't compete, no way in hell).

The faces I see are 20-somethings who wouldn't be able to articulate their grievances beyond 'I hate her'(not her policies, her beliefs, her legacy) 'she screwed the country, the bitchy' or the classic 'she stole my miiiiilk'. No, they won't be joining a political party any time soon. Its not legacy that we need to protest - its how we are being screwed now (and how!) that needs to be protested and argued against.

And looting has had a revival - it just shows what a shitty society we have become and I don't blame politics for that - more the entitled 'me' generation of 'I deserve, I must have, I want therefore I take...'.

There have been better and there have been worse PMs. Blair was at the helm at the time when the UK really went to the dogs. Brown sold off the country's gold reserves at the worst possible time when he was Chancellor, and really dropped the ball in general. They (and others) won't get half of the venom that she (as a woman, not as ex PM) is getting now. What's it 'b-LIAR'? Who thought of that stinging gem of critism?

The 1980s was a crap period (for lots or reasons) but it wasn't down to one person. Actually, the 70 were crappy too. I remember the strikes, the trade unions' strength, the fear we had that we would have no electricity, the piles of rubbish in the streets... She wasn't the cause. I had no time for her myself.

I applaud debate, but dancing on someone's grave? It's just not ut a lot of the protesting is 'protest lite'. They are just doing it for fun, not for any deep seated ideological reason, of feelings of social/economic discontent. The faces I see aren't ex-miners or people from communities that used to have industry long gone (as I am actually). Our town gave itself a boot up the arse and other industries grew up in place of those lost (to cheaper foreign imports - we couldn't compete, no way in hell). The faces I see are 20-somethings who wouldn't be able to articulate their grievances beyond 'cos she screwed the country, the bitchy' or the classic 'she stole my miiiiilk'. No, they won't be joining a political party any time soon. Its not legacy that we need to protest - its how we are being screwed now (and how!). And the looting has had a revival - it just shows what a shitty society we have become and I don't blame politics for that - more the entitled 'me' generation of 'I deserve, I must have, I want therefore I take...'.

There have been better and there have been worse PMs. Blair was at the helm at the time when the UK really went to the dogs. Brown sold off the country's gold reserves at the worst possible time when he was Chancellor, and really dropped the ball in general. They (and others) won't get half of the venom that she (as a woman, not as ex PM) is getting now. What's it 'b-LIAR'? Who thought of that stinging gem of critism?

The 1980s was a crap period (for lots or reasons) but it wasn't down to one person. She wasn't the cause. I had no time for her myself.

I'm all for debate, but when the pitchforks come out, I'm off.

Picturesinthefirelight Wed 10-Apr-13 16:56:26

I prefer Defying Gravity myself. She was a powerful woman who showed women they could reach the very top.

gallifrey Wed 10-Apr-13 17:04:41

actually she was a very frail 87 year old woman.

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 17:15:52

Yanbu it is disgusting and says a lot for the people singing and posting it. No respect for themselves or their country. Most of them were not alive during Thatchers office and probably have no clue of her policies and the impact they have. Just an excuse for violence and thuggary

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 17:17:56

I have no intention of being violent piglet your kneejerk reaction does not do you credit.

hackmum Wed 10-Apr-13 17:18:35

YANBU. I despised her as a politician and as a human being, but all this "witch" stuff is misogynistic. Surprised at how much I disliked it, actually.

fancyanother Wed 10-Apr-13 17:19:45

Yes, I get the feeling that a lot of the vitriol would not have happened if she had not been a woman. It makes me quite uncomfortable. I was no fan of hers, but I bet her adopted son, Tony Blair won't get half the vitriol she has when he dies. (I bet his wife will though)
Witch is a derogatory term only used for women. Warlock is seen as someone strong and magical, a witch is seen as someone evil, someone to be feared and reviled, and only applies to women. It it indicative of a mysoginistic trait if someone uses that term to describe an old, frail woman

thebody Wed 10-Apr-13 17:20:08

Moonmin,, fantastic post.

Hackmum agree its vile.

Zara1984 Wed 10-Apr-13 17:20:26

YANBU we won't see this kind of thing when Blair goes.

Whatever your views on her and her policies, nobody can deny that she was a strong, fearless woman who shattered one of the biggest glass ceilings of them all. You can hate her policies but you can admire her achievements as a woman.

You hear similar misogynistic slagging off of former NZ (Labour) PM Helen Clark in that country. It's revolting.

thebody Wed 10-Apr-13 17:20:55

Oh and pig, well said.

SelfRighteousPrissyPants Wed 10-Apr-13 17:23:17

I'm glad calling her a frail old woman is taking off grin

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 17:43:41

Not talking about you dawn but the individuals seen on the news and in the media

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 17:48:38

Thanks the body. There s no need for silly idiotic behaviour from champagne socialists who probably do not know what thatchers policies were and how I affected them. Just excuse for bad immature stupid behaviour. If you want to Mae a difference join a political party an start making positive changes not shouting abuse and behaving badly. Tey are only embarassing themselves and letting their country dwn

marjproops Wed 10-Apr-13 18:00:30

when it was 911 and the planes destroyed the towers etc the news showed the taliban and their country celebrating that theyd killed all those innocent people.

think that was just a bit diff to whats happening now.

were there celebrations when hitler and bin laden died?

MT wasnt a murderer or a terrorist.

sensesworkingovertime Wed 10-Apr-13 18:12:36

Just what I was thinking Marj, it's totally playground stuff, and not very nice playground stuff at that. I can practically hear the 'nah nah na naah nah' my skin is crawling thinking about it.

I didn't like the woman myself but let's show some respect for her family, if not her.

SelfRighteousPrissyPants Wed 10-Apr-13 18:16:36

Surely even Mark Thatcher isn't daft enough to take any notice of the opinions of random people on Facebook?

sieglinde Wed 10-Apr-13 18:27:18

Great posts here. Glad I'm not BU for most of you. I have had a bellyful of the abuse. Piglet is right, and so is Moomin. These people need to do something politically real.

SelfRighteous, just thinking - it's not just respect for her kids.. I think we should have a bit more respect for ourselves.

Moominsarehippos Wed 10-Apr-13 18:31:46

Are kids taught about politics in school these days? We were - about our own system, and that of china, america and russia. I'm not sure all that people really care all that much about politics. They just like to moan.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 18:35:02

I'm really enjoying all this bad behaviour stuff. We're adults, we make our own decisions. The usual tropes of champagne socialists and juveniles are being trotted out but for heaven's sake, as I've said before, if you put yourself in the public domain, you take what comes with it.

SelfRighteousPrissyPants Wed 10-Apr-13 18:36:02

Sorry but I just don't see it. I said horrible things about her while she was alive and I will now. I'm not religious and to me it can't be worse being unpleasant to someone who's dead than someone who's alive!

yummymumtobe Wed 10-Apr-13 18:43:38

I think it is in really bad taste. And I also agree with some of the posts commenting that lots of people jump on the bandwagon and just join in the ranting for the sport of it. There was a fool on radio 2 or five live earlier saying 'oh she was awful she started the iraq war' etc. presenter had to politely point out that he didn't seem to actually know much about Margaret Thatcher for one with such strong opinions!

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 18:48:54

Dawn that is silly and yes have some resect fr yourself lowering yourself to playground childish mentality and it is, is it not!

aftermay Wed 10-Apr-13 18:52:28

She was vile. It's a free country and people are thankfully still allowed to have bad taste. Now clutch your pearls about the next thing that's not the done thing. It's hot nothing to do with MT being a woman. It's just a funny song that seemed apt when she was alive and coming into its own now.

Moominsarehippos Wed 10-Apr-13 18:52:29

I don't think that there would be a party in Trafalgar Square had she died a few years back. 'Protest' in the guise of riot has become a bit of a passtime for the Facebook/Twitter generation. Defintely Rebel Without a Clue.

If she had died 5 or ten years back, it would have been more of a rally, with speakers from the left yelling political speeches into loudhailers, not a bunch of numpties "bring a bottle, bring jelly & ice cream, bring joy". Seriously, if you'd asked them a year ago who was/is Margaret Thatcher, I'm sure they really wouldn't have a clue. And bloody taxes will be paying for the additional police needed to babysit it.

My heart fell when I saw George Square on the news (ah good political rallies there in my youth). It looked like a bloody kindergarten.

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 18:52:31

Well do it in private if you must unless you want to make a spectacle and embarass our country

MysteriousHamster Wed 10-Apr-13 18:53:27

Not a big fan of witch but think it's perfectly acceptable to discuss a political figure's actions. She went to the grave an old lady with family, but if I want to say I disliked her actions during the eighties, I will.

Public figures doing a public job have to expect to be criticised for what they do! Obviously she did it all a long time ago but a) the ramifications are ongoing b) whenever there is strong feeling about someone, when they die brings it all to the surface again.

aftermay Wed 10-Apr-13 18:53:45

Without playground childish mentality half the threads on here wouldn't exist. Like this one. Where you want to get a following and bully others into keeping quiet.

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 18:54:16

It's just childish after and more apt to the playground

aftermay Wed 10-Apr-13 18:55:23

Oh you're do funny. Which country would that be then?

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 18:55:36

Yes you ave every right to not lie her but te eaviour we are witnessing in unlicensed is unacceptable and embarassing

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 18:55:58

Meant in public

aftermay Wed 10-Apr-13 18:56:05

See post above. Pot kettle etc

aftermay Wed 10-Apr-13 18:56:49

Is it China? What's not licensed?

Moominsarehippos Wed 10-Apr-13 18:58:56

An effergy on the 4th plinth to be toppled "like Saddam Hussein" as "liberation and cathartic retribution"?

I'm going to sound like my granny now, but 'for christsake, were there ignoramuses dragged up by wolves?'. Wise woman, my granny.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 19:05:33

effigy

Piglet, thinking that someone is 'embarrasing their country is a tad sad. I am demeaning myself in any way whatsoever by stating, publicly that I can't stand the woman. If I were able to demonstrate, trust me, I'd be there, placard waving the lot. But I'm exactly the sort of champagne socialist so despised on these boards. I'd be more embarrassed if one of my children asked for the toilet than I would be demonstrating against the legacies left by that particular government, headed by that particular woman.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 19:05:48

not demeaning

pigletmania Wed 10-Apr-13 19:18:48

Oh dear dawn

I am [not] demeaning myself in any way whatsoever by stating, publicly that I can't stand the woman. If I were able to demonstrate, trust me, I'd be there, placard waving the lot. But I'm exactly the sort of champagne socialist so despised on these boards. I'd be more embarrassed if one of my children asked for the toilet than I would be demonstrating against the legacies left by that particular government, headed by that particular woman.

Love it! grin

Bollocks it's misogynistic.

Certainly it's in bad taste to celebrate Thatcher's death. Furthermore, the people who seem to be doing it are too young to remember her time in power and what she did. They strike me as people who while not espousing her policies, have utterly and unthinkingly adopted her values - e.g. 'do what you want' individualism.

But it's also in very poor taste to start hurling around accusations of misogyny. This idea that Thatcher would have been hated less if she had been male - as if her policies weren't awful - make me laugh. If she had been male, we'd be hearing less about witches but more about ogres or the undead.

Without being misogynist, OP, you're being a tit.

ThePathanKhansAmnesiac Wed 10-Apr-13 19:23:39

Rusell Brand (of all people) wrote a brilliant piece on her death, how he,d happened upon her, with her security detail, watering a rose bush in London, something she did every week.
No friends, no family, just paid police protection.
He said she was the person who said there was no such thing as society, just the individual, and here she was, senile and alone.
He also said, the bell ringing on news of her death was kind of sad, and perhaps in the end, she had wrung the last of compassion from us(food for thought indeed).
I,m no fan of the right, but the celebrations of another humans death makes me sad.
On a lighter note, a while back I was talking to my niece aged 14, "Maggie Thatcher stole my milk at school"
Niece(with little sad face) " Aww, was she bigger than you?" shock grin.

Harsh Toad, but true.

AuntGertrude Wed 10-Apr-13 19:54:35

I wouldn't personally sing that song about her but I understand completely that other people might want to, and have the right to. And it's not misogynist, imo.

Some people complain that some young people are commenting about her, as if they have no right to speak about someone who was a politician before they were born. Are they allowed an opinion on Clement Attlee or Churchill or Hitler or Mussolini, Carter or Reagan, Gorbachev and Yeltsin? Teenagers today are living with the toxic legacy of Thatcherism and at least some of them are aware of it. My kids read the papers and follow the news and are very well aware of what Thatcher did - they studied it in history lessons in some cases, and heard it from family members and read about it on the internet. Teens these days are quite capable of finding out about what has created the culture of greed, callousness towards the poor and disadvantaged, the lack of council houses, the privatised industries that benefit only shareholders and cream off profits, the deregulation of banks etc. Then they do hear about Section 28, the support for Pinochet, the "let us rejoice" over the sinking of the Belgrano, the support for apartheid, as well as everything else. I see no reason to disallow teens and young people a voice on this matter: they have inherited all the terrible influence of Thatcher's free market and "Greed is good/no such thing as society" culture.

ShellyBoobs Wed 10-Apr-13 20:32:51

YANBU.

It is misogynistic and frankly pathetic.

Celebrating when she was ousted from power? Fine.

Celebrating that a frail old lady is dead. Fucking appalling, quite frankly.

My family and our community were hit very hard by MT's policies and the resulting fallout in our Northern towns and villages but I'm not going to start getting all het up about it again so many years down the line.

Some of you really are making utter tits of yourselves and will look back on this whole episode with shame, I'm sure.

soverylucky Wed 10-Apr-13 20:40:18

I am with shellyboobs

All this cheering and clebration - even Martin Mcguiness has said it isn't really right.

Anyone who rejoices in the death of a senile old woman has become exactly the sort of person that they are complaining about - uncaring, without compassion, unfeeling and selfish.

NonnoMum Wed 10-Apr-13 20:49:57

THank goodness I've found this thread. Was beginning to feel completely disheartened and appalled by the mob mentality.

Complain about today's policies if you want to make a difference. One thing Mrs Thatcher did was defend Child Benefit/Family Allowance. Vent your anger at today's policies instead of the death of a little old lady with no current power.

Darkesteyes Wed 10-Apr-13 20:50:53

Anyone who rejoices in the death of a senile old woman has become exactly the sort of person that they are complaining about - uncaring, without compassion, unfeeling and selfish

Which is exactly what she wanted. Never has the saying "be careful what you wish for" seem so apt.

I wasn't a fan, but she is still a mother, and it must be painful for her family to have to read and listen to the nastiness about her sad

TunipTheVegedude Wed 10-Apr-13 21:02:05

Good to see this thread. The misogyny is blatant and revolting.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 21:04:45

Some of you really are making utter tits of yourselves and will look back on this whole episode with shame, I'm sure.
If we're all the product of her disenfranchised society, I doubt it. I feel the government should be ashamed of continuing along the path she started, but heyho, not happening, is it.

chocolatesolveseverything Wed 10-Apr-13 21:25:32

Agree about the distastefulness of it all. Not entirely sure about the misogyny, but it's an interesting thing to ponder if the level of vitriol would be quite this personal had she been a man.

marfisa Wed 10-Apr-13 22:32:34

So any time someone uses a gender-specific insult to describe a woman, is that misogyny then? Or is it "witch" in particular you object to? If so, why? Just trying to clarify your stance, OP.

I'm not particularly fond of the term "witch", but in the context of MT, it seems to be shorthand for a woman who has done a lot of harm, which she has.

I simply can't get my knickers in a twist about people being disrespectful to Maggie. She wasn't merely a frail old woman with dementia; she was also a public figure who left an enduring public legacy and people are entitled to critique her as such. Especially if the state is going to fund a ceremonial funeral for her out of the public purse.

WhoWhatWhereWhen Wed 10-Apr-13 22:42:25

What shocks me is the attitudes towards young people on display in this thread, people should give them more credit.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 10-Apr-13 22:42:50

YANBU.

marfisa Wed 10-Apr-13 22:43:04

Interesting article here - the last para is about the 'Ding dong' song:

angrywomen.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/thatchers-demise/

thebody Wed 10-Apr-13 22:48:34

I totally give young people credit. I have 4 and 2 of them are in their 20s.

However they don't remember maggie and have no idea of life in 1979.

Its just so sad that we still have this mysoginistic shit today.

Russell brand wrote a ridiculous long winded piece of crap about how he thought she was a bad mother and he felt sad for her children as she was never there. Fucking twat.

Read it on the other thread.

Just so so awful that we still judge women like this.

I never voted for her either.

Moominsarehippos Wed 10-Apr-13 23:01:49

I happily give anyone credit unless they are protesting about something they know bugger-all about. When we went on marches (I was a young person myself)- peaceful marches - if anyone was interviewed, most would know what they were protesting about. It wasn't glamorous, it was the very opposite - mostly cold and wet, long periods of hanging around and listening to long-winded speeches.

My late 20s niece hasn't a clue about who she was and what she did, but as a Facebook generation girl, I won't be suprised if she was at a anti-maggie-death-party.

Moominsarehippos Wed 10-Apr-13 23:02:59

'Late 20s' as in 28 year old niece, not a late niece.

LynetteScavo Wed 10-Apr-13 23:10:17

I don't see how saying one person was evil/a witch is misogynistic.

But then I don't see how this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD88WBTIXqU is misogynistic.

It's about one woman, not all women.

LynetteScavo Wed 10-Apr-13 23:10:33
WhizzforAtomms Wed 10-Apr-13 23:18:55

That article made me laugh marfisa thank you - if calling her a witch is being interpreted as misogynistic then what’s wrong with calling Thatcher a venomous, putrid crust of syphilitic smegma on the chode of the universe?

In the context of the Wizard of Oz, being a witch isn't even an insult (remember Glenda?) and the ding dong song takes care to distinguish: Which old witch? The wicked witch. Love it.

A feminist guide to celebrating Thatcher?s demise

marfisa Wed 10-Apr-13 23:25:55

Ha, glad you liked it Whizz! I thought she made some good serious points amid the humour.

My fave line from it: You don’t get to claim any feminist kudos for breaking glass ceilings when you rain down shattered glass on the women below in the process.

megsmouse Wed 10-Apr-13 23:37:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thebody Thu 11-Apr-13 00:22:45

So the main oreoccupation for a woman at the too if her profession is to help other women up the ladder? Really?

Do men have to do that?

Oh dear.

sieglinde Thu 11-Apr-13 08:31:32

I see all this. But I'm betting that most people singing 'ding dong' aren't making these subtle distinctions!

thebody - of course they bloody don't. They are already ON the effing ladder.

Moominsarehippos Thu 11-Apr-13 09:14:45

I would have respect for any kind of protest/memorial that didn't involve getting drunk, lighting fires or looting.

Looking back at all the 70s/80s footage on tv makes you realise what awful times they really were. Cold War? We really did think Russia was going to nuke us.

marfisa Thu 11-Apr-13 09:36:23

So the main oreoccupation for a woman at the too if her profession is to help other women up the ladder? Really?

Um, I never said that. For a woman at the top simply to refrain from making other women's lives harder would be enough.

Do men have to do that?

Yes, absolutely. Men and women at the top BOTH have a responsibility not to treat other women like shit.

As a professional woman and a mum, I have worked with colleagues (male and female) who are sympathetic to the particular needs of mothers (and fathers), and I have worked with colleagues (male and female) who are not. Believe me, it makes a big difference.

marfisa Thu 11-Apr-13 09:43:05
thebody Thu 11-Apr-13 10:07:42

i don't think it would have entered mrs thatchers head to help women up the ladder because they are women. Don't think she was made that way.

Marifisis I too work full time and agree with your point re its nice to have a boss who understands the needs of family etc, to be fair to her in all the interviews with her staff maggie was described as a very kind and caring boss. Especially to the office staff.

I am not sure why there is particular bile to mrs T as I remember her well as doing much good snd much bad as did John major, tony Blaire and Gordon brown.

I think it's because she was a woman and that's so unfair.

sieglinde Thu 11-Apr-13 12:29:44

Thanks for the link, Marfisa. Spot on.

thebody, she was made selfish and self-serving, I agree. And believe me, I loathe Major and Brown too.

thebody

That Russell Brand piece was pretty long - and pretty insightful in parts - and mentioned Thatcher's relationship with her children only in passing. The Guardian (for reasons best known to itself, but perhaps to attract the attention of people like yourself) decided to use that passing remark as the headline of the story.

Your post suggests you haven't even read it.

DioneTheDiabolist Thu 11-Apr-13 20:31:02

MT was a disgusting, contemptible woman who put her will above the needs of the citizens of this country. I rejoiced when she was ousted. I revelled in the fact that she was stabbed in the back by her own cabinet. I was delighted to see her tears as she left Downing Street.

Do I care that her death is being celebrated? Not a bit and TBH I think she would have disappointed were it not so. Her gender had nothing to do with it. Had she been a man, my community would still be celebrating. I don't do the DingDong thing because it would be an insult to witches.

The comments I have read here about Amanda Holden this week are misogynistic. The comments about Thatcher? Justified.

Confuseddd Thu 11-Apr-13 22:02:08

I think the witch song is very silly, but It is a counterpoint to the blanket news coverage about her (mainly state funded) funeral arrangements and reminiscences from every pundit going. You can't get away from it and it's just as weird and unpleasant as the ding dong thing.

allagory Thu 11-Apr-13 22:30:07

The thing about "witch" is that the only thing that defines a witch is that she is post-menopausal (ie no longer "useful" for sexual or child bearing purposes), she is ugly, she doesn't have a partner and therefore, she is evil. There is no male equivalent of being damned just for your age, marital staus and looks.

You could say she lacked empathy, you could say she was inflexible, narrow minded or racist. You could say she destroyed the working class.

But shame on anyone who thinks "witch" is an acceptable insult. It insults what she was (and what we ALL will probably become), not what she did.

LastMangoInParis Thu 11-Apr-13 22:39:02

Agree with allagory... (How convenient, seeing as (s)he's posted last...), but
You could say she lacked empathy, you could say she was inflexible, narrow minded or racist. You could say she destroyed the working class.

well, exactly. And you could say all these things entirely truthfully.

But 'celebrating' her death is just pathetic. How does her having died of a stroke, ancient and frail, represent any victory for anyone? And why celebrate when the current government represents and carries on everything she created?

Nerfmother Thu 11-Apr-13 22:48:23

Thank you for this thread op. I have been ashamed by the lack of grace shown at at time of mourning for her family and friends. Celebrating her death - why? When she lost power, yes, absolutely. When she was powerless and no longer in the public eye? Yuk.

superstarheartbreaker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:01:17

YANBU. I am not a fan but I think that those who are rising to it are not doing the left any favours. Dignified respect. I mean I didn't agree with Gadaffi but I still got very upset when I saw the footage of his murder. Two wrongs don't make a right etc. (pardon the pun!)

superstarheartbreaker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:02:09

I am being serious. Very distasteful and shameful I speak as a lefty. I still respect her guts and belief though.

LastMangoInParis Thu 11-Apr-13 23:11:10

not doing the left any favours
Exactly... but probably more because to treat the natural death of a very frail, elderly woman who was out of office for more than 20 years as some kind of 'victory' reeeks of apathy, more than anything else.

Distasteful? Maybe, but I don't think that's such a problem.

Do you think Alexei Sayle's comment that she was the 'first of the personality disorder politicians' was distasteful? I think it was spot on.

(So 'guts and belief' - nah. Personality disorder. Probably.)

superstarheartbreaker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:25:10

I don't just think calling someone a witch is mysognistic; I just think it's tasteless. I am a real lefty. I am not a Tory, however, I do have some respect for the deadI don't agree with her BUT I do admire her guts.

superstarheartbreaker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:28:04

I think it's another excuse for people to have something to protest against. Whether or not we should be beavering away at our own entrepenuerial ideas is debatable (having worked with people who have watched their businesses fail in the recession) but hey ho......lets face it...Thatcherism hasn't succeeded but we should't lower our moral standards. Lets rise above it.

LastMangoInParis Thu 11-Apr-13 23:34:58

another excuse for people to have something to protest against

There is more than enough to protest against. The current government doesn't provide much , but it certainly provides reaasons to protest.
Why then would people choose to 'protest' about the death from old age of a very, very elderly woman (albeit one who, with the help of her party, several million voters, and most of all Mr Rupert Murdoch, managed to destroy much of what was good about this small country)?
I think 'celebrating' Thatcher's death allows people who are otherwise apathetic and a-political to feel that they are subversive. Meh.

DioneTheDiabolist Thu 11-Apr-13 23:45:20

Should the word witch now be banned?confused

superstarheartbreaker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:55:24

I don't think thatt witch IS an isnsult; being a wich is surely a complement?????!!!! I think that there is nothing wrong with being a witch; I just don't think that Thatcher was remotely interested in witchcraft or any other alternative lifesyle in our society. 'Yey capitalism' was her moto. I don't like her policies but can't help admiring her guts.

superstarheartbreaker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:55:49

whitch

superstarheartbreaker Thu 11-Apr-13 23:56:57

Oh god how do I spell it???? WITCH???? lets be proud of thet 'INSULT'

WafflyVersatile Fri 12-Apr-13 01:20:33

according to 'the feminist guide to thatcher's death' ding dong is ok cause it's referring to the wicked witch, but the bitch is dead is not.

As it happens I live in Brixton and went to the party for a little while. I'm not really into grave dancing but as it's on my way home...

A lot of people had their lives and communities destroyed by her policies, and a lot of people are suffering from the legacy of thatcherism. The people eulogising her have no respect for that. I knew a couple of people there and had a beer and a chat. It was more interesting that going home to dishwashing.

The Barnardos thing seems to have been very ill-thought out. Apparently it was claimed by indymedia because Barnardos are involved in immigrant detention centres.

They should have gone for Foxtons instead. There is a lot of bad feeling towards their recent arrival, the pricing out of the area for residents this symbolises, and their odious business practices.

I suspect, later on especially, there would have been some young idiots there for the lols rather than any political conviction or personal grudge against Thatcher. Certainly I've heard at least one account of a couple of Hoxtonites along for the ironic ride.

The evening was by all accounts mostly good natured with a very light hand from the police until it was time for dispersal and, funnily enough, the drunken crown failed to disperse in an orderly manner, and in some cases got rowdy and attempted to block the road.

Anyway, I guess this is the nearest you're going to get to an eyewitness account without the twist of media editorial.

Fear not, I am not a teacher, your kids are safe. wink

sieglinde Fri 12-Apr-13 08:19:43

LAstmango said...Do you think Alexei Sayle's comment that she was the 'first of the personality disorder politicians' was distasteful? I think it was spot on.

Well, except for Oswald Mosley and Karl Lueger and Lenin and Stalin and Hitler and the whole Nazi hierarchy, yes, she was. Oh, and maybe both the Pitts. (Ponders.. Walsingham? Machiavelli? Domitian?)

The abuse is still ickily gender specific. In historical fact, men COULD be witches, but in 2013 the word is only applied to women. Why not use instead something celebrating the fall of a tyrant? The Ding Dong thing has a bullying, gleeful, and misogynist ring I really don't like. (It's also tasteless and puerile, and it's risking reminding people of the tastelessness and puerlity of 1980s Labour).

Just a reminder, since I was the OP - I do NOT like what Thatcher did.

Moominsarehippos Fri 12-Apr-13 09:22:45

Can anyone remember if the was this reaction when she resigned? I can't really remember as I was working in the City at the time and got told off for sniggering.

Moominsarehippos Fri 12-Apr-13 09:30:09

And I'm not sure that had anyone else been in power the outcome would be all that different.

The economy was shot, industry was on its knees from foreign competition that we couldn't fight against and the education system had been so messed around/experimented with its a wonder anyone from the 70s got a decent education. The unions were powerful and exercised their muscle too much. I remember jobs being bloody easy to get - leave school Friday, job Monday. Don't like a job? Resign then look for another one. This is the pattern on my older siblings. Then it got harder and people got pissed off. Add to this the rising fear of nuclear attack, and people got scared and pissed off.

As I get older I see politicians come and go. They promise short term wins with long term costs. They assume they won't still be in power when it comes time to pay for their actions. I think things are far far worse for business and families now.

sieglinde Fri 12-Apr-13 10:29:59

I remember her resignation as a source of glee for about 6 hours. Then it dawned on all academic women that people were being ridiculously misogynist. So exactly like now, really.

RollerCola Fri 12-Apr-13 10:57:39

At first I felt it was all in very bad taste but then I decided that MT probably wouldn't have cared less what people thought about her and the fact that we're all still arguing about her shows just how important she really was. I can't see the same amount of fuss being made when John Major dies.

sieglinde Fri 12-Apr-13 11:10:58

Which is a pity, as Major was a GIANT TOOL who did just as many bad things as MT - closing the last pits, for example, and I well remember marching in the rain against the last closures, 400,000 of us.

pigletmania Fri 12-Apr-13 11:21:33

It is uncalled for and unacceptable, she is hardly on par with Hitler who killed millions with his racist fascist ways. Why all the parties and protests now, they seem to have all come out of te woodwork. There have been prim ministers with good and bad policies before her and there are after her. it's all very sick, vile and in very bad taste. Disrespecting Thatchers family. Why don't those people do something positive in te community to Mae change, join a political party or one of your own and try and make changes yourself instead of resorting to vile bullying behaviour. Two special needs teachers were in the media inciting hatred and vile behaviour, I hope to god that this s not representative of all teachers ad none of tt teachers who work with dd asd beavers like that

Madlizzy Fri 12-Apr-13 11:24:12

Putting the "frail old lady" comments into context - awww, poor Saddam, he was just a frail old man living in a hole, poor hitler taking his own life, poor Pinochet (one of her bezzies) was a frail old man. I don't dance on graves, but I certainly won't be mourning that vile, vile woman.

sieglinde Fri 12-Apr-13 11:25:58

Rola, actually I remember Thatcher as moderately easily hurt. Just not willing to change to get people's good opinion.

LastMangoInParis Fri 12-Apr-13 17:21:25

sieglinde I think Alexei Sayle was talking about Thatcher in relation to other twentieth century UK parliamentarians. Sorry I didn't describe his comment in enough detail for you to understand it fully. On which note, perhaps people haven't revived songs about the death of tyrants, because however awful as she was, Thatcher was not a tyrant. Her holding of office as PM was entirely legitimate and in keeping with democratic principles. I don't think anyone who has lived in a state ruled by a 'tyrant' would dream of describing Thatcher as that, however much they might despise her policies.
I agree that using the Ding Dong the Witch is Dead song is silly and pathetic, but I must say I think it's less so than it would be were people to try and pretend that Thatcher was a 'tyrant'. 'Tyrants' really exist. 'Witches' (in the sense of this song) don't. Therefore I'd say calling Thatcher the latter is a lot less offensive and ridiculous than calling her a tyrant.

fancyanother Fri 12-Apr-13 17:41:37

Madizzy, she destroyed communities, yes, she contributed to the greedy, grabbing society we have today, she was no friend of the poor and disposessed- she didn't gas them in their millions or 'disappear' them. To put her victims in the same context as the victims of Hitler, Sadaam and Pinochet is not context, and minimises the gravity of what those men did.

LastMangoInParis Fri 12-Apr-13 18:35:03

fancyanother I absolutely agree - drawing parallels between Thatcher and the mass murderers you name in your post is absurd and demonstrates a complete lack of awareness of basic principles of democracy and simple historical facts.

That said, I do find myself wondering when people say they 'admire her guts' (Thatcher's, I mean, and metaphorically, obviously). I mean you've gotta have some chutzpah to wield your illegitimate rule over several million subjects who hate your guts. So if you 'admire' Thatcher's guts, superstar.... hmm

LastMangoInParis Fri 12-Apr-13 18:38:39

Also, though, is it not perhaps slightly misogynistic to describe Thatcher as a 'tyrant'/compare her to real dictators? If she'd been a man, might people not have had a more realistic, intelligent respnse to her?

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 19:41:37

It's as if we didn't have 13years (I think it was ) of labour power. FFS.

The people bleating here aren't old enough (obviously from their comments) to remember much about her.

It is laughable in a way but quite scary too that people can be so easily led and confused.

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 19:44:17

But fortunately this is a blip of 'hatred' (ie people whingeing on fb) that will be forgotten in a month or so.

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 20:16:50

Grinkly. I'm 54. I was a local councillor when she was pm. Stop bleating yourself. She was a rude, difficult divisive woman who did nothing for those that needed it and everything for those that didn't. Try reading some real articles, alternatively the Daily Fail site is thataway>

ChocolateCakePlease Fri 12-Apr-13 20:22:35

I don't mind people having an opinion on her as long as they have actually taken the time to inform themselves of both sides and made their own decision on it. The amount of people who "hate" her and have been on about it this week and jumping on the bandwagon yet when asked why they hate her they say "Erm... well... she did close the mines didn't she?"

sieglinde Sat 13-Apr-13 19:30:48

Dawndonna, I stood as a local councillor but lost. Under Major, not Thatcher. It was a safe Tory ward with a deference vote.

And I still really hate the witch is dead stuff. In fact, I'm the OP.

Dawndonna Sat 13-Apr-13 19:43:05

I can see you're the OP because I have you highlighted in green. Makes life easier for me.
I don't find any of it offensive, I do think different strokes for different folks and my opinion is she deserves it. But I'm capable of backing up my arguments and tend not, until pushed, to be rude and difficult.

amandine07 Sat 13-Apr-13 20:12:31

OP you are most definitely NBU!

thermalsinapril Sat 13-Apr-13 20:45:57

It's pretty cowardly to leave one's protesting until the person has died!

marjproops Sat 13-Apr-13 21:15:47

just seen on sky news a party/demonatration in trafalgar square. im in disbelief.

whatever people think of her, one extreme to the other, its just sick. sick.

i am convinced half these people dont even know the story, its just another boozy britain excuse to party and get drunk on a saturday night.

and those that ARE the hate crowd, ffs, its putting her in the same pen as hitler/bin laden, i mentioned that earlier. i really dont get it. tbh i feel contempt big time about the current lot but not to the point of this.

CouscousForTea Sat 13-Apr-13 22:39:17

I think that the tone of all this is depressingly misogynistic. It is like she can't be forgiven for being a woman but displaying so many traits that are considered to be masculine. I think it was only possible for to her to succeed because of her tough rhetoric and authoritarianism. Being hated by many was probably far less fatal to her election chances than being despised as a weak, indecisive woman.

Sadly I don't think we have really moved on. How many women do you see succeeding in politics at the moment? Given all this Ding Dong Witch stuff about Thatcher how much do you want to bet that if a women does make it to the top of British politics much of the criticism aimed at her will be throughly sexist in its nature? She will be criticised for not being a real woman but a bitch, a witch and a ball breaker who neglects her kids. Otherwise if she is a bit softer she will be called over emotional, indecisive and not committed to the job. Regardless of personality there will be endless snide comments that she is too fat, too thin, bad hair, wrong clothes, shrill voice. I can imagine it right now....

The fact is that people voted Thatcher in. Lots of them. Given that we are a democracy I think if she really was so awful then the ultimate responsibility lies with the voters of the 70s and 80s. So perhaps everyone needs to start dancing on the graves of their own parents and grandparents or at least go and ask them why they made the decisions so many of them obviously did.

marjproops Sat 13-Apr-13 22:46:56

you could have a good point there couscous.

HoppinMad Sat 13-Apr-13 23:26:36

Ive not really commented on MT or her demise as I was too young to remember her as prime minister, and I dont speak ill of the dead nor enjoy grave-dancing.

However since learning about her racist comments on Asians to the Aussie foreign minister I am hugely offended and really couldnt give a shit what anyone called her. <Shrug>

LastMangoInParis Sun 14-Apr-13 21:50:22

Couscous I think the point you make about people taking responsibility is spot on - and I find it depressing and plain weird that this isn't obvious to everyone (hence my earlier post about Thatcher having legitimately held office). However much people despise(d) her policies, and however disastrous they were, they are what the electorate chose. Marina Lewicka wrote an excellent piece about how her policies appealed to fear and greed.

Also, Couscous, your point about how her holding office and what she did as PM may have damaged women's status in politics reminds me of what my dear grandfather used to tell me - way back in the 80s, when he used to predict how Thatcher would be hated for decades to come. Used to say we'll be unlikely to see another female PM for a century because of how she'll be remembered and seen as such a hate figure.

So yes, all this 'Ding Dong the Witch is Dead' does seem to represent deep misogyny, and an apathetic sort of scapegoating and denial of collective responsibility. Funny how these attitudes go hand in hand.

marjproops Tue 16-Apr-13 20:20:56

well, Ive just cried. watching the news and recent footage of her tottering out of no 10, having to be helped to negotiate the steps.

A strong bold woman that got old and ill and ended up so frail and delicate.

for all her 'faults', she died a frail old woman, someones mother and grandmother. just reminded me of my gran, she was just as delicate in her last days.

marjproops Tue 16-Apr-13 20:22:54

ps-and my gran was rascist-even though her great-grandson is mixed race!

a sign of their times, like the 70's 'love thy naighbour' stuff.it was just the way she was brought up, she wasnt an bad person-

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