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To think that it's perfectly fine to be pleased someone is dead when they caused such a lot of harm?

(504 Posts)
LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 09:43:58

So, all these people saying it is inappropriate to speak ill of the dead are all positive and nice about Pol Pot are they? Stalin? Hitler?

Just because someone dies does not make them a nice person.

And did you feel sorry for Saddam Hussain's family? Or did it not cross your mind?

missmarplestmarymead Tue 09-Apr-13 09:46:58

YANBU. You have put it very well and I couldn't agree with you more.

Nancy66 Tue 09-Apr-13 09:47:59

...except Mrs T was a democratically elected leader

Sugarice Tue 09-Apr-13 09:48:00

I don't think Thatcher can be compared to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam and Gaddafi.

Silly comparison.

thebody Tue 09-Apr-13 09:48:25

If you are referring to Margaret thatcher then I don't actually think she can be compared with psychopaths who murdered millions.

To do so insults the memories and stories of millions who were.

I remember the 1979 election and belive me this country was on its knees. Far far worse than it is now.

Margaret thatcher made many many mistakes but also did some much needed things.

It's not inappropriate to speak ill of the dead but it is silly to make comparisons like the one above.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 09-Apr-13 09:49:09

The people who take issue with the gravedancers are not saying Mrs Thatcher was a "nice person"

You haven't been reading threads properly

saycheeeeeese Tue 09-Apr-13 09:49:57

Comparing MT to any of those people pretty idiotic IMO. She didn't start wars or be responsible for mass death.

NervousAudrey Tue 09-Apr-13 09:50:13

Thatcher was not in the same league as the dictators you mentioned - you can't really compare them. Plus her death hasn't altered anything current, the deaths of hitler, saddam etc did.

CheCazzo Tue 09-Apr-13 09:50:24

Your OP makes you sound like someone who has no idea at all what they are talking about.

saycheeeeeese Tue 09-Apr-13 09:51:20

X posted with a few people there.


DoctorAnge Tue 09-Apr-13 09:51:27


DeepRedBetty Tue 09-Apr-13 09:51:39

When Saddam died I felt a sense of satisfaction. However I did not post puerile updates all over faceback linking to the Munchkins singing The Witch is Dead in the Wizard of Oz, or anything else so crass.

'Each man's death diminishes me.'

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 09:52:01

Bollocks is it. She supported Pinochet. She funded Hussain. She gave Pol Pot use of the SAS to train his soldiers of genocide.
She may not have given the orders for any mass atrocities, but she certainly helped them to take place.

iheartshoes Tue 09-Apr-13 09:52:56

Loopa - What an ignorant thing to say.

MrsPatrickDempsey Tue 09-Apr-13 09:53:16

Yabvu - I agree with The Body.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 09-Apr-13 09:54:17

You might want to do a bit of research into how ALL UK governments have supported atrocities abroad, and still do to this day

thebody Tue 09-Apr-13 09:54:28

Errr which world leader hasn't been involved in things like this?

Tony Blair, Gordon brown? Obama?

Netguru Tue 09-Apr-13 09:55:10


If a dictator or someone responsible for genocide dies it stops their campaign. Margaret thatcher was a democratically elected (three times) leader who retired 22 years ago. She was an ill old lady who was admired by many. Think what you like but keep your vitriol to yourself.

fairylightsinthespring Tue 09-Apr-13 09:55:11

what everyone else said. YABU. Also, regardless of her politics, she was a person, with a husband and a family and those who actually knew her personally have been speaking about her in a personal capacity as someone who will be missed. You can have whatever opinion you like about what her democratically elected, three times government did but to say you are glad she is dead is pretty vicious.

Sugarice Tue 09-Apr-13 09:55:58

You've been reading up on Wiki then. wink

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 09:56:06

Mrs Thatcher the equivalent of Pol Pot, or Stalin...really [Hmm]

Do run along, and read up on your history Sweetie, there's a good girl...

flaminhoopsaloolah Tue 09-Apr-13 09:56:31

I remember getting hugely flamed for being extremely upset at the reactions to whats-his-name was leader of Al Quaida...was allegedly killed. He was a horrible, terrible, man...from our point of view....but the celebrations going on (considering most of the people doing it were the very people who had criticised the celebrations filmed in the Middle East when 911 happened) I found sickening. No one won. Everybody lost. I can understand the anger/grief/pain/disbelief you go through when someone has done something to completely and utterly ruin your life but actually celebrating that person being dead just seems wrong to me.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 09:57:13

TBH I was pleased when her old cronies removed her from being leader of the Tory party but now she was just an oldie who had lived an infamous and famous life sobiscuit.

IAM annoyed that hardly any one has mentioned that if Margaret T and her friend President Ronald Reagan had not deregulated the banks we wouldn't have been in this almighty mess.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 09:57:37

Agree with the posts by SugarRice, TheBody and Anyfucker - nice to see someone who knows what they're talking about.

saycheeeeeese Tue 09-Apr-13 09:59:14

Oh yes wiki, fount of all knowledge.

netguru has hit the nail on the head. And grave dancing over anyone IMO is in bad taste no matter who they are.

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 09:59:36

"She gave Pol Pot use of the SAS to train his soldiers of genocide."

Yes, because naturally the deployment and operational movements of the SAS are widely known and reported, and are a matter of public record.

In fact, it's annoying how members of the SAS are always all over twitter and FaceBook openly chatting about their last jaunt overseas, and how much fun and japes they had...

navada Tue 09-Apr-13 09:59:49

YABU. & I've had enough of all this anger & hate towards a woman who was elected in a democratic way by the people of this Country.
Comparing Margaret Thatcher to Pol Pot ? - I'm actually laughing here.

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:00:08

I think you miss my point.

I'm not only talking about MT. Or other world leaders. I'm saying that, in my opinion, it is generally OK to be glad when people you dislike die.

I was happy when my dad died, for example.

And please, the nasty patronising 'run along dear' comments just show you are incapable of debate. That is what's pathetic.

meditrina Tue 09-Apr-13 10:00:21

It's possible to think the world a better place and not lament the deaths of cruel dictators and major criminals.

But that's never the same as rejoicing or being "pleased".

And of course, it's utterly wrong to label a democratically elected PM in the same way as genocidal tyrants. Unless you really don't think there is a difference between a tax change that isn't universally welcomed and mass murder based on race/religion.

Earthymama Tue 09-Apr-13 10:01:08

I posted this link on another thread.oppose-hagiography

Feelings run high because of the untold harm she did to our view of ourselves as a society and her attacks on working-class pride.

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:02:15

Not sure about the wiki references? Those things, and others are common knowledge. But I'd rather stick to the more general point, if possible. I'm sure there are hundreds of MT threads.

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 10:02:57

"And please, the nasty patronising 'run along dear' comments just show you are incapable of debate."

Actually, I thought it just demonstrated your woeful lack of knowledge about recent history, and the biographies of Stalin and Pol Pot et al...?

If you want a debate, then I find it helps matters enormously if you actually know a little about what you're debating about - yes?

MrsCampbellBlack Tue 09-Apr-13 10:03:05

I think rejoicing in the death of anyone is pretty horrible behaviour to be honest.

Disagree with someone and their politics but to actively want to party or sell discounted champagne (yes oddbins I'm looking at you) - well I just find it distasteful.

And I understand some people feel very strongly about her personally but there's also an awful lot of bandwagon jumping going on.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 10:04:45

Yes it is generally OK to be glad when people you dislike die YANBU

BoundandRebound Tue 09-Apr-13 10:05:05

I think it's disgusting to be pleased and I think the Level of hatred is because she was a woman and not just a right wing politician

She was democratically elected for three terms so at the time the majority felt she was right for the country

Expressing pleasure at the death of a frail old lady is foul

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 10:05:31

Sorry forgot to say IMHO grin

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:05:51

Oh LaQueen, back to your old tricks again?

CheCazzo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:06:24

What LaQueen said. Just that.

navada Tue 09-Apr-13 10:06:31

Op: you asked if you're being unreasonable & most ( if not all ) have said you are. But so what? - you can carry on hating her if it makes you happy. life will go on. I'm not sure why you're asking for validation.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe France Tue 09-Apr-13 10:06:56

DeepRedBetty's post nails it.

If we can't feel anything for the death of a person then perhaps it's better to just shut up. Otherwise, why should we care about anybody's death just because someone somewhere does. Think about it, OP.

This salivating is horrible and all it does is speak volumes about the posters starting these multiple threads about it. They sound derranged and very ignorant.

I don't think it's ever right to celebrate a death. I wasn't happy when Arafat died and he deliberately killed hundreds of my people. She was an old lady who lost power years ago. To be pleased she is dead is disgusting.

TheFallenMadonna Tue 09-Apr-13 10:08:43

I was glad when she no longer Prime Minister. That's enough surely?

AnyFucker Germany Tue 09-Apr-13 10:09:36

The grave dancers have it all wrong and have missed a trick here

They could and should have been practising their dance moves in celebration from the day she was ousted from her own leadership and spent the last 20 years suffering the bitter humiliation of being in the political wilderness

They could have been serious contenders for Strictly Dancing by now

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 10:10:16

What old tricks OP?

I'm happy to debate if that's what you want. I just think that debating ways in which Margaret Thatcher was similar to mass genocidal dictators, is a bit..I dunno...fatuous?

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:10:56

Very few people have actually answered my question. People are just getting all het up about their admiration for MT. My point is, anyone can feel any emotion about someone's death, and that's fine. I can understand that those who benefitted from her policies are sad, but all the same others aren't, and that's fine too, just as it was fine when other people, public and otherwise, die.

Lemonylemon Tue 09-Apr-13 10:11:21

The UK in the 1970's was not a particularly pleasant place to live. I'm not going to praise her to the heavens, but during the '70's, we: had bread rationing, sugar rationing, power rationing (we had to do our homework and eat etc. by candlelight with no heating). The unions had a stranglehold across the industrial spectrum, which they used to devastating effect. If you didn't belong to a powerful union, then tough luck on you.

It was the effect of what was going on before, which was why she did win the 1979 election.

To say that she backed Hussein is correct because at the time, Iran was rattling the sabres. THAT political situation was very serious. Many people woke during a thunderstorm in the middle of the situation, thinking that Iran had actually dropped a nuclear bomb - tensions were running that high. Saddam Hussein was an ally at that time, simply because he was fighting against Iran.

It will always happen that during certain political situations, a power who was once an ally, becomes the foe.

HousewifeFromHeaven Tue 09-Apr-13 10:11:42

'I remember the 1979 election and belive me this country was on its knees. Far far worse than it is now'

'Margaret thatcher made many many mistakes but also did some much needed things'

I agree with these comments.

thebody Tue 09-Apr-13 10:12:15

Loopa sorry but La Queen is right. You do sound ill informed and a bit childish to be honest.

And of course you were talking about maggie.

Abra1d Tue 09-Apr-13 10:13:17

Ha! re 'working class pride'. Was that the same working-class pride that was happy for the whole country to be dictated to by unelected, dictatorial union bosses? At least LT was elected.

Those union bosses were appalling people. Blame them for the destruction of heavy industry, not LT.

NotTreadingGrapes Tue 09-Apr-13 10:13:47

Being glad anybody is dead is just weirdshit stuff.

Being glad any politician/dictator/monster is dead doesn't take you down to their takes you far far below.

There is a difference in greeting somebody's death with relief - because they can no longer do harm and in being glad of somebody's death. Especially so in the case of Margaret Thatcher. Everything she did was done under a democratic process and whilst you may loathe the results, as I do, it's utterly unfair to lump her in with murderous psychopaths. In any case she left power more than two decades ago. The woman who died yesterday was a very elderly, frail woman, still grieving an adored husband. She was somebody's mother and aunt and grandmother. She was many people's friend and mentor. All those people are grieving and grief should always be respected.

It's utterly petty and diminishing to get all 'ha ha she's dead' about this. What the hell has it to do with you anyway? Reflect on Thatcher the historical figure now if you must but you'd be better spent keeping your eye on the modern political ball.

flaminhoopsaloolah Tue 09-Apr-13 10:14:42

OP, I have to say, regarding SH...I remember clearly wondering if his children would be ok or if they would come to terrible harm and if his wives would come to terrible harm.

TheFallenMadonna Tue 09-Apr-13 10:15:12

Feeling pleased that someone has died long after they have ceased to govern is not quite the same as not being sad.

nokidshere Tue 09-Apr-13 10:15:23

Feeling relieved someone has died is one thing, mindlessly vandalising our streets once again is pathetic.

The pictures of the "celebrations" today are sickening! Mindless, thick yobs who somehow feel that they have the right to injure innocent people and destry property to prove what exactly?

Anyone who is stupid enough to jump on this bandwagon of disruption deserves everything they get.

Sugarice Tue 09-Apr-13 10:15:31

I'm not het up in any admiration for MT but your OP implied that her death and the jubilation shown by some was to be compared the deaths of stark bollock madmen who murdered people in truly horrendous dictatorships.

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:15:47

Yes, that certainly was the starting point for the thread, of course it was. But I wasn't particularly wanting to speak about her, more this notion that, once someone dies, they become in some way untouchable. That is wrong.

I'd love to have the parts where I sound ill-informed pointed out, by the way. Are there factual errors in my posts?

ImagineJL Tue 09-Apr-13 10:16:12

Does anyone remember the Not The 9 o Clock News sketch in which 2 politicians were viciously slagging eachother off on a Question Time sort of show? One of them was saying that the other was an idiot, a fool, various other very derogatory things. At that point the object of this criticism collapse and died, and the politician immediately changed his list of insults to lines like "a great political mind, a genius" etc.

Of course it was all about the hypocrisy of politicians when one of them dies. I am finding that hypocrisy quite unbearable at the moment, and it's refreshing to hear the few people who aren't praising her "qualities".

So I agree with the OP - when someone dies at nearly 90 years old, after hurting a great number of people and doing vast amounts of damage, I don't think we should feel morally obliged to mourn their passing. Should Jimmy Saville's victims be respectful of him?

I pity the loved ones of deceased people, but I don't have to pretend that I'm not happy when a bad person dies.

Sugarice Tue 09-Apr-13 10:17:50

Who is untouchable?

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:18:30

I'm not in the UK and not seen news, so know nothing of vandalisation. Will take a look. Absolutely do not agree with that, or even overt jubilation, but thinking and talking about your relief / gladness is still, IMO, Ok.

Minion Tue 09-Apr-13 10:19:00

Put it this way if the names were reversed would you agree with the following statement?
Gosh, don't you think Adolf Hitler is just as bad as Margaret Thatcher?
No, you would not agree I'm sure (assuming you're a rational human being).
He was responsible for ethnic cleansing. As was Pol Pot, Stalin and Hussein. Thatcher wasn't.
If you want an intelligent debate, perhaps you should have picked someone else to compare against?

Tanith Tue 09-Apr-13 10:19:19

"...except Mrs. T was a democratically elected leader"

So was Hitler.

Lueji Tue 09-Apr-13 10:19:21

And you have lost the argument just with your OP, by comparing MT to Hitler.

TheFallenMadonna Tue 09-Apr-13 10:19:43

Again, there's a difference between being pleased someone is dead, and not hypocritically lauding them after death. It's not so very difficult to see that, is it?

BinarySolo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:19:45

Celebrating someone's death is pretty hideous.

I wasn't a fan of MT. Much of what she did in office went against my political views. I was very young at the time but i remember i was glad when she left office. However, I also have a lot of respect for her just for achieving the position she did and being a strong leader, even more impressive that she did that as a woman in a male dominated area.

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:20:03

Anyone, sugarice, the idea that one should not speak ill of the dead renders them untouchable in death. I can't agree with that.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:20:09

i think it's illogical to be pleased when someone like Thatcher dies. i could understand if it was during the time when she was causing alot of damage to the country. her dying then would have (hopefully) meant that would end and less suffering. but she died a very old, sick lady who wasn't causing harm to anyone at all so i cant understand the pleasure people are taking in her death. i am pleased when good things happen. nothing good has happened. the country will not be a better place for her death. it will improve no-one's life so i cant see where the pleasure in that is?

mrsjay Tue 09-Apr-13 10:20:27

no it doesn't make them a nice person I hated the woman but to say yaaayyy and get out the bunting is disrespectfu imo

l and saddam and gadaffi were dictators tyrants and murdered thousands Mrs thatcher did not do that you can't put them in the same bracket

AnyFucker Germany Tue 09-Apr-13 10:20:37

Who is saying she should be "mourned"

Somebody else who needs to read threads properly...

ImagineJL Tue 09-Apr-13 10:21:13

And actually I think we should feel sympathy with the people who want to "celebrate" her death. They we clearly people whose families were destroyed by her regime. They are powerless to change what she did, her actions changed the course of their lives, and nothing will ever be the same. They campaigned during her "reign", but it made no difference. Nothing can or will ever be done to compensate their losses. So if they can derive a bit of pleasure from her death then I wouldn't begrudge them that. It's all they have left in many cases. To make them be respectful now would be adding insult to injury.

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 10:21:35

Why did you mention Stalin, Pol Pot et al...unless you were comparing them to Margaret Thatcher?

There are literally hundreds of other world wide politcians, who though democratically elected, were highly disliked, and implemented damaging policies...why didn't you use any of them as a comparison?

Tanith Tue 09-Apr-13 10:22:08

I remember that Ted Heath's Conservatives did a pretty poor job in the 70s, too. 3 day week, anyone?!

BinarySolo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:22:51

It's rubbish that death makes people untouchable. Often quite the opposite. Look at jimmy Savile

AnyFucker Germany Tue 09-Apr-13 10:22:58

All the gravedancers attracting ridiculous attention to themselves make it more likely Cameron's lot will consider this a good week to bury bad news

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:23:54

I was not comparing her to Hitler so much as showing more blatant examples of public figures who have been hated on death. Would you prefer I replace his name with someone else hated by people?

How old are you OP?

ImagineJL Tue 09-Apr-13 10:25:04

AF OK change "mourned" to "respected", that probably says it better.

Sugarice Tue 09-Apr-13 10:25:14

You've lost me on your last post. confused

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 10:25:33

Our democracy is hmm because many more of the population voted AGAINST MT than for her the votes were split; which happened with new Labour so any leader who thinks they have a mandate to rule like a dictator is sadly mistaken; I certainly didn't dislike her because she was a woman (though she didn't give a jot for women). I disliked her policies.

"She did some much needed things" She broke the closed shop powers of the unions I agreed with that. But she also DEREGULATED THE BANKS a brilliant move don't ya think?

nokidshere Tue 09-Apr-13 10:25:45

And actually I think we should feel sympathy with the people who want to "celebrate" her death. They we clearly people whose families were destroyed by her regime. They are powerless to change what she did, her actions changed the course of their lives, and nothing will ever be the same. They campaigned during her "reign", but it made no difference. Nothing can or will ever be done to compensate their losses. So if they can derive a bit of pleasure from her death then I wouldn't begrudge them that. It's all they have left in many cases. To make them be respectful now would be adding insult to injury.

Deriving pleasure? From smashing up the streets? Starting fires? Putting innocent people in hospital? Beyond pathetic!

Dahlen Tue 09-Apr-13 10:26:57

I didn't like MT and I think her policies resulted in a lot of harm. However, I also acknolwedge that she achieved some good and that love her or loathe her, she was one of the most significant leaders we've ever had. I respected her for that, even if I loathed what she actually stood for.

While I can't say I'm remotely upset that she's dead, I would never celebrate anyone's death. What does it achieve other than the stoking of your own bitterness? Surely the best response is complete indifference and a life well lived?

LoopaDaLoopa Tue 09-Apr-13 10:27:12

Why do you ask, Northern? Do you have a further question to ask about my experience of Thatcherism, or are you just bring rude?

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:27:27

i agree nokidshere

ImagineJL Tue 09-Apr-13 10:28:37

No obviously I would never condone any kind of violence, that would be ridiculous. I'm just saying we should understand and sympathise with the emotion behind it.

As usual I'm always astounded at the strength of feeling on AIBU. To call me "beyond pathetic" - you must be in quite a bad mood nokidshere. I thought I was just jointing a debate!

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:28:41

"I would never celebrate anyone's death. What does it achieve other than the stoking of your own bitterness? Surely the best response is complete indifference and a life well lived?"


Lueji Tue 09-Apr-13 10:29:23

A person has died.
She had her faults, as many of us.
But she was hardly evil. hmm

Personally, I don't care either way, not more than any other well known person.

Being happy when she was out of the office, yes, if you didn't like her.
Pointing out the bad things she did, fine.

Being pleased that she has died is a different thing.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:29:57

imagine i think nokids was calling teh people who are smashing the place up 'beyond pathetic'. not you.

ImagineJL Tue 09-Apr-13 10:30:43

Oh OK, if that's the case then sorry, I stand corrected.

Minion Tue 09-Apr-13 10:30:48

I just think its sad people are celebrating the death of an old lady. After weeks of hearing people speak out saying 'no cuts to the elderly' etc they're now rejoicing in the demise of one. Celebrations should have been when she was ousted, not upon her death.
For shame.

You know what OP I agree with you, and my first reaction on hearing that she'd died was, "Ding dong the witch is dead". I lived through the Toxteth riots and I fucking hated her guts.

nokidshere Tue 09-Apr-13 10:34:21


Booyhoo was right - I was calling the people who are causing so much destruction and pain under the guise of "celebrating" beyond pathetic!!!

TeWiSavesTheDay Tue 09-Apr-13 10:34:24

Well, I'm with the OP.

It's okay to be pleased people have died. I have abusers in my family, and many people were glad when they died. It was okay for us to feel like that. It was okay for us to be happy. And yes, some of them died old and ill, that doesn't make them any less awful in our memories.

Being pleased someone has died is not that same as going out and being a vandal etc, and the OP hasn't said it is, so I agree with them there too.

If I intended to be rude you'd be in no doubt of that OP.
I asked how old you are. That's a factual question not a rude one. How old are you?

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:35:24

"Celebrations should have been when she was ousted, not upon her death. "

i agree.

her death isn't a victory to be celebrated. she hasn't been stopped in her tracks of some plan to destroy thousands of lives. she wasn't doing or planning anything to harm anyone when she died so to be pleased that the world is exactly the same as it was before is odd. nothing has changed, good or bad.

it's very immature if i'm being honest.

SelfRighteousPrissyPants Tue 09-Apr-13 10:37:07

I don't understand the whole respect for the dead thing unless you are religious. If someone's dead they don't care what you say about them! Surely it's worse to disrespect them when they are alive?

Personally I hated Thatcher dead or alive.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 10:37:28

Not a dm link.

MajorDivvy Tue 09-Apr-13 10:38:04

With Hitler etc. their deaths caused the end of their power - MT's power (at least all her main influence) ended years ago.

Celebrate a loss of power by any means and no reason to pretend you liked someone just because they're dead, but don't celebrate the fact that a human being has died no matter how horrid they were.

That's how I feel about the subject anyway.

nokidshere Tue 09-Apr-13 10:38:26

I have no understanding, empathy or sympathy with anyone who chooses to harm another person or partake in mindless thuggery to prove they have suffered.... for whatever reason.

Mrs Thatcher was a woman doing a job. Like everyone else she did some bits brillianly and some bits badly. None of which excuses the behaviour of the people on the streets last night.

thebody Tue 09-Apr-13 10:38:48

I remember the toxteth riots too. A police officer was virtually decapitated.

People riot because they are upper class twats who want to be working class as in the student demos recently( my 2 uni lads were too busy working to do this as we can't afford to fund them thru uni)

Or they are rent a mob twats or thieves.

Protesting peacefully is what makes this country great.

Mrs T was elected by the population, she was neither evil nor a saint.

MajorDivvy Tue 09-Apr-13 10:41:03

Oh and to clarify: being relieved or glad of the death of someone is, in my opinion, quite different from 'celebrating' it and posting about it on a public forum. Being privately glad or whatever is personal opinion and feelings and everyone is entitled to that - celebrating only hurts the living who that person leaves behind and have enough to cope with in their time of grief.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:42:40

there is a difference between not respecting the dead and being pleased they are dead.

i didn't respect MT when she was alive. i haven't gained a respect for her in the last 24 hours. however, i am certainly not pleased she is dead. why would i be? nothing good will come from her death so there is nothing to celebrate.

ShoeHorn Tue 09-Apr-13 10:44:52

Each to their own viewpoint, but I have to say, 'celebrating' and 'rejoicing' and 'partying' on the streets is a little bit sick tbh.

TeWiSavesTheDay Tue 09-Apr-13 10:44:56

Part of being glad is sometimes connecting with other people who feel the same, I think there can be a lot of relief in talking things through with other people who've had the same experiences and feel the same, obviously in my situation it has been family coming together in a way they didn't feel able to when the abuser was still alive - in some cases the internet is the ideal place to do that.

I think it's okay to post on forums, blogs etc and reach out to other people.

RustyBear Tue 09-Apr-13 10:45:24


"Yes, because naturally the deployment and operational movements of the SAS are widely known and reported, and are a matter of public record."

Actually, when most of the SAS at a certain base went off to the South Atlantic on a supposedly secret mission at the start of the Falklands crisis, everyone locally knew they'd gone because they cancelled their milk....

<<end sidetrack>>

thebody Tue 09-Apr-13 10:45:24

Yes agree Boo and Major.

piprabbit Tue 09-Apr-13 10:46:02

I think the current overt celebrations are deeply shaming for this country.
In the aftermath of Princess Diana's death, there was much discussion of how shamefully the public had behaved, to allow themselves to wallow in grief for someone they did not really know.
Personally, I find it far more distasteful to gloat over someone's death. Especially when the gloating is being done by people who were not even alive during her term of office.

mrsjay Tue 09-Apr-13 10:47:25

I think partying in the streets is awful she was an old woman with dementia no not a saint infact she ruined lots of lives when she was in office but dance in the street really confused.

limitedperiodonly Tue 09-Apr-13 10:47:25

sell discounted champagne (yes oddbins I'm looking at you)

There's a discount, you say mrscampbellblack?

Thanks, I'll get my skates on down to Oddbins and raise a glass to enterprise.

I don't think the dead need respect, except in the inviolable nature of graves. I think grieving people need respect. Scrutinising Thatcher's record does not disrespect those who are grieving. Celebrating it does.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 10:54:43

agree NL.

tomverlaine Tue 09-Apr-13 10:56:07

I loathed what she stood for and what she did. But to celebrate because she is dead is wrong - her being dead doesn't change anything. Similarly I think mourning het is wrong (obv unless you knew her personally)- as her death doesn't affect you. I remember celebrating her departure as PM- but that (potentially) changed things sow as worth celebrating

ImagineJL Tue 09-Apr-13 10:57:09

Actually some good has come of her death. David Cameron has had to cut short his swanky holiday. Given that most people can't afford a holiday like that, I'm glad he had to come back early.

LtEveDallas Tue 09-Apr-13 10:58:09

Your OP and your second post is at odds with your further posts.

You have changed track in the middle of your own thread because you didn't like the reposnses you were getting.

No-one is saying that you cannot speak ill of the dead - I would like you to show one single post where that has happened...

If she had died whilst in office I could understand some of the gleeful bandwagon jumping - but she didn't. She was an old woman who hadn't had any "power" in 20 years. Surely it's a bit redundant to be dancing on her grave now?

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 11:01:47

how does DC cutting short his holiday benefit anyone?

MajorDivvy Tue 09-Apr-13 11:02:15

Northern you've hot the nail on the head there!
Nowt wrong with pointing out her faults and that she was no saint - everything wrong for using her death as an excuse to party!

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 11:02:56

agree LtEve.

ImagineJL Tue 09-Apr-13 11:04:24

It makes me feel better Boo! I don't like him and his charmed life. Forgive me if I'm not perfect but I'm jealous of his money and fancy holidays. Please allow me that!

kungfupannda Tue 09-Apr-13 11:06:18

I agree with piprabbit - the celebrations remind me of the people cheering the death of Saddam Hussein and I found that fairly unpleasant, even given what he had done.

Margaret Thatcher was an elected leader - elected three times - at an incredibly difficult time. I don't think everything she did was right, or rather she and her government did, because she wasn't a military dictator and could have been ousted by her party at any time if she was genuinely working against what everyone else in her government believed, but I strongly suspect that whoever was in power at the time would have found themselves making some of the same decisions.

I don't even believe that most people celebrating her death even care that much - it's just a way for people to be involved in the Big Thing of the moment, or possibly just a justification for causing carnage.

People need to be able to separate individuals from their role in government. I don't believe that any individual politician can be blamed or credited for any individual change - there are many people involved in everything decision made for the country. I also think it's incredibly easy for other parties to make capital out of an unpopular government - oh we wouldn't have done that, you should have elected us. But a fair chunk of the time, there isn't much difference to the meat of any decision, just to the way it's dressed up.

My profession is currently facing proposals that will decimate not only the profession, but also a vital part of our legal system. This is the second attempt to introduce these measures - the last was by a labour government. The Tories stated that if they gained power they would not introduce these measures, although they wouldn't stop them if they were already underway. The proposals collapsed (because they were badly thought-out bollocks) and guess what? A few years down the line and the Tories are trying to bring them in under their own steam.

Some of the things MT did would have happened anyway - not all, but some. There are criticisms to be levelled at her government about the way they went about things, but to suggest that MT was single-handedly responsible for all the things that happened, or were begun, in her era, is incredibly simplistic, and suggests that a fair swathe of the country just wants a bogeyman to band together against.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 11:06:57

you know you're actually doing yourself more harm by feeling that way than good right?

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 11:08:00

I think your post is ridiculous OP, and doesn't demonstrate much of a thought process. You are suggesting you can be pleased someone is dead because your political persuasion doesn't agree with them.

You could just as equally make out a case for Tony Blair and Gordon Brown causing a lot of harm to this country by turning it into a discontent mass of benefit dependents and over-taxed workers.

Then you compare Margaret Thatcher with Pol Pot, Stalin, etc, conveniently forgetting that we live in a first world country with a democracy, extensive education for all, high health care standards, freedom to buy property, etc.!

One of the most ridiculous, dim-witted postings I have ever read.

Netguru Tue 09-Apr-13 11:08:15

Yes. Because I'm sure his wife and children need you to be pleased that yet again something has come up which means he can't spend a few days with them. Then we moan about the quality of people who stand for parliament. Most decent people wouldn't want to bother.

skratta Tue 09-Apr-13 11:08:19

I think you can not respect the dead but making inappropriate, sick comments about dancingn on er grave was wrong. For the last few years, she wasn't the woman who did all that. She was a frail, sick lady with dementia, who died after a stroke (and however peaceful e news says it is,my acing watched three people die of a stroke, it isn't). I think in some ways it's a relief that she is dead (as in, the past is now a bit further behind us) and I will never respect her, BUT there is nothing good coming from his death. Is an evil campaign stopped in its tracks? Are millions of lives spared because she died? No. A lady died who, at the last point, held no power, and her death changed nothing.

kungfupannda Tue 09-Apr-13 11:10:14

Sorry, meant to add that I agree with the posters saying how pointless the celebrations are anyway. Is the mining industry suddenly going to be revived because she's dead? Will the current government suddenly build a million new social houses?

No. Because they've all picked up and run with what they were left with, and made no attempt to reverse these things. Leaders who followed her were probably pretty relieved that they didn't have to make some of those decisions and had someone to blame.

I believe government is a continuous process - and everyone involved has to take responsibility for the way the country develops. Very few governments can say "It was all their fault. We've done great."

thermalsinapril Tue 09-Apr-13 11:11:21

Why not just be pleased when she retired from politics?

The fact that she has died is not related to her career as she stopped work a long time ago.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 11:16:53

I'm actually quite pleased at the reasoned responses on this thread. It's not sat well with me how many people are posted silly comments like 'dancing on her grave' less than 24 hours after she's died.

No matter what your political opinion, it just strikes me as wrong and highly disrespectful to take glee from the fact remains that an 87 year old woman died yesterday and left behind a family which will be grieving.

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 11:17:28

kungfupanda I believe government is a continuous process - and everyone involved has to take responsibility for the way the country develops

I believe the people of a country get the government they deserve. Hence in the UK, we now have governments composed of career politicians who make decisions based on mass popularity and staying in power, rather than what is good for the country. And we now have a country considerably poorer than it once was.

lottieandmia Tue 09-Apr-13 11:20:24

"Celebrations should have been when she was ousted, not upon her death. "

This is my view as well.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 11:20:45

Excellent posts KungFu

ImagineJL Tue 09-Apr-13 11:21:44

I still agree with OP.

I think violence and destruction is totally wrong, but the fact remains that she was a nasty woman who did a lot of harm and destroyed the lives of many. Those people should be allowed to say what they like now she's dead. After all, she rode roughshod over their feelings when she was in power.

navada Tue 09-Apr-13 11:23:30

Agree niceguy2. I'm so glad the majority of replies have been respectful & measured - a sure sign of maturity & intelligence.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 11:27:19

but the fact remains that she was a nasty woman who did a lot of harm and destroyed the lives of many.

Did you know her personally then? The country was hardly Utopia when she took power.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Tue 09-Apr-13 11:27:58

I didn't like the jubilation about Bin laden's death, and wouldn't especially see the point of rejoicing at Thatcher's death, since her being alive wasn't causing any problem.

If she'd died in 1987 or something, that would have been different and much better.

But it does irk me a bit to be told I have to be 'respectful' or acknowledge certain things, or, to be honest, to give much of a fuck about Mark and Carol Thatcher.

I do find it depressing how many people are asking 'so what did Thatcher actually do' though.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 11:29:10


those people were all free to say what they liked about her while she was alive. they were free to celebrate when she was put out of power. that was something to celebrate. the death of an old woman, that has changed nothing and improved no-one's life is nothing to celebrate. to think it is, is very immature.

cuteboots Tue 09-Apr-13 11:30:38

YABU show some respect for gods sake

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 11:33:01

LessMissAbs If you had read my posts you would've realised that sadly one of the reasons that our country is much poorer than it was is because MT sold off a lot of our industry to other countries.

Also our banks would not have gone bust if they had not been DEREGULATED in the manner of "worship the extremely rich" and fuck the unions which MT did believe in.

FasterStronger Tue 09-Apr-13 11:33:02

Mrs T seems to be blamed for the ills of globalisation.

our manufacturing was always going to die.

EuroShaggleton Tue 09-Apr-13 11:36:51

YABU and very immature.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 11:39:01

Yes faster I don't just blame MT for the ills of globalisation (though she made it much easier) there should be far more control (the USA believes in protectionism).

navada Tue 09-Apr-13 11:43:44

I saw someone on F/B blaming Margaret Thatcher for the Falklands war, what was she supposed to do? - just let Argentina take it? it's amazing the utter shite people are coming out with.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Tue 09-Apr-13 11:45:22

Saddam Hussain and Hitler were scum of the earth. Perfectly reasonable to be glad they have gone. They did nothing apart from cause misery to millions- the world is a better place without them.

Same cannot be said for Margaret Thatcher. You just cannot compare the two. I know nothing about politics but I'm pretty sure she didn't mastermind the killing of millions of people.

Theicingontop Tue 09-Apr-13 11:46:05

This whole thing has me puzzled.

To not celebrate her death, does not mean you're saddened by it. It means you don't give a shit, most likely. When I heard she'd died, it was a big fat oh well.

I suspect that was the case for most people, until they realised there was a bandwagon they needed to catch, spent ten minutes on wikipedia, invented some mining relatives and spent the day being dramatic and unnecessary on public forums.

FasterStronger Tue 09-Apr-13 11:46:39

ppeat - but America has much more power than us. and their power is waning. their protectionism will not serve them in the long term.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 11:48:12

God, I was staying away from here for a few days.
Right, Thatcher was to blame for the Falklands. The Labour party had been close to a deal that at the time was agreeable to all parties. She rode roughshod over the lot.
She is responsible for the deregulation of the markets, the banking crisis could not have happened if it hadn't been for her.
Our manufacturing was not always going to die, it needed sorting out, not strangling.

reasonably balanced point of view
Not a DM link.

themaltesecat Tue 09-Apr-13 11:48:20

OP sounds about 12 years old.

Go easy on her.

Lueji Tue 09-Apr-13 11:50:26

Saddam Hussain and Hitler were scum of the earth. Perfectly reasonable to be glad they have gone. They did nothing apart from cause misery to millions- the world is a better place without them.

Hitler's death meant the end of WWII.
Saddam Hussein's, though, was already almost unnecessary, except to prevent him from ever going back to power.

Actually the only thing Hitler's death achieved was saving the Allies the expense of a trial. Hitler committed suicide only when the Russian troops were over-running Berlin and Germany surrendered a few days afterwards. Surender was inevitable at the point Hitler killed himself. The war with Japan continued for a dew more months.

ExRatty Tue 09-Apr-13 12:00:22

I think it is fair enough to hate or dislike policies or governments but not usually people. Those policies weren't purely Thatcher's.

She had a party around her and she was voted into power on three occasions. She was hardly a despot. Many of her policies continued for ever.

I'm a lefty, a complete lefty now but...
Thatcher being PM when I was a girl meant that I thought it was perfectly normal for women to have top jobs
She seemed tough and hardworking and clever and in charge. She also wasn't from anywhere posh but had been determined to do well. She was serious and forthright
I wanted to be her as a girl

Things changed massively as I grew up and my understanding of some of the policies that she and her government backed made me view Thatcher and the conservative party differently.

It doesn't change the idealism that she provided for me or the role model that she was. I thought that hard work and determination meant that you could do anything.

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 12:16:50

Where were you reasonable lot yesterday, eh?!

Perhaps these ghoulish "death parties" have made people think again about what the real motivations behind these protests are. Really, it's just so gauche and cringey.

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 12:16:54

*LessMissAbs If you had read my posts you would've realised that sadly one of the reasons that our country is much poorer than it was is because MT sold off a lot of our industry to other countries.

Also our banks would not have gone bust if they had not been DEREGULATED in the manner of "worship the extremely rich" and fuck the unions which MT did believe in*

Oh right. Theres me, with my university education and professional career and all the effort involved in obtaining those, when all I should have done all along is read your posts, ppeatfruit. What effort, time and money I could have saved!

Good luck with the brainwashing, by the way.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 12:18:25

Faster IMO the world would be a better place if each country was aiming at self sufficiency rather than going for the lowest priced slave labour based industrial globalisation that ruins our environment.

Shame her 'cleverness' included crass class war Exratty

DoctorAnge Tue 09-Apr-13 12:22:09

Those death parties! What a buch of sad pathetic fuckers.

AnyFucker Germany Tue 09-Apr-13 12:23:33

We were here, TCD

Lost in a morass of ghoulish twattery...

musicismylife Tue 09-Apr-13 12:28:45


Hey, OP, didn't you realise that free speech is only OK if you don't say things that upset people? hmm

This isn't about opposing free speech. It's about not being a callous twat.

musicismylife Tue 09-Apr-13 12:36:42

'free speech' is there for everyone, the callous twats included.

Yes indeed, callous twats have free rein to show exactly how much of a twat they may be. As this thread bears witness.

musicismylife Tue 09-Apr-13 12:44:20

and you're entitled to that opinion Norther Lurker.

boschy Tue 09-Apr-13 12:45:52

I think if someone is a callous twat it is as well to know about it and therefore one can steer clear.

I didnt like her; I do admire and respect her for the good things she achieved (personally and professionally). In some ways she could be very kind to individuals, as many have said in the media.

Yeah she fucked up on some stuff, but as others have said - she was democratically elected 3 times, her party went with her all the way until the end.

But as for all the witch is dead, and death parties - GROW UP!

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 12:47:08

I am completely at a loss, as to how celebrating by trashing the street, and damaging other people's property can, in any way, be seen in any sympathetic light.

I don't give a toss, what these people suffered. It gives them absolutely no right, to behave like this and endanger other people, and destroy their property.

But, of course, the type of person who behaves like this, just quite likes behaving like this, and requires virtually no reasoning, or provocation to do so.

Thugs and scum.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 12:47:36

Right, Thatcher was to blame for the Falklands. The Labour party had been close to a deal that at the time was agreeable to all parties.

Ok...i'll bite. How was Thatcher responsible for the Falklands? I mean did she order Argentinian soldiers to invade?

If someone forcibly enters your property and declares that your garden shed is actually theirs and has been all along. Do you:

a) Call the police and have them ejected
b) Organise a deal with them

I know what I would do.

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 12:49:16

If Martin McGuinness says you're being unreasonable by celebrating her popping her clogs then you definitely are.

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 12:49:47

I strongly suspect the OP is 16, and is part way through GCSE History, and therefore thinks she knows what she's talking about.

Laqueen - my thoughts run along similar lines. I note she hasn't been back to say how old she is. Must be busy elsewhere.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 12:52:00

Brainwashing? I was there at the time Abs You don't think she had anything to do with deregulation? (she asks politely).

pigletmania Tue 09-Apr-13 12:52:32

Yes but there is no need for the downright nasty and inappropriate behaviour we are seeing on the streets. Some OfThese individuals were not even alive when she was in face, and i execs do not know who she is. Yes you dont have to care ad are or ably pleased but no need fr immature inappropriate behaviour, be discreet

pigletmania Tue 09-Apr-13 12:52:56

Meant in office

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 12:54:42

"But, of course, the type of person who behaves like this, just quite likes behaving like this, and requires virtually no reasoning, or provocation to do so."

spot on. i very much doubt the people 'celebrating' in that manner are newbies that have been driven from their homes by an overwhelming sense of joy.

musicismylife Tue 09-Apr-13 12:54:44

When anyone dies, I think that it is so sad that they will never experience nature at its best, ya know, hearing the birds sing and all sad

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 12:55:48

Northern she'll be in the canteen, getting her chips and can of coke, with which to fortify herself, as it's Double Maths this afternoon...

Tortington Tue 09-Apr-13 12:56:51

If this was a 'Lets discuss Thatchers Policies' thread - then fine.

But this isn't. Those of you who have noticed any rants of mine on here or facebook, will know my politics. But I have refraned from giving my opinion here or facebook


it's crass.

That's all

TheRealFellatio Tue 09-Apr-13 13:02:35

KungfuPanda your post of 11.06 was excellent. And that's all I have to say on the subject. grin

grimbletart Tue 09-Apr-13 13:03:38

I think celebrating Thatcher's death or spewing their visceral hatred (including on some threads on MN) says much more about the characters of these people than it ever does about MT.

YY Custardo.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 13:04:44

Exactly dawndonna Thanks for the link

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 13:07:14

When anyone dies, I think that it is so sad that they will never experience nature at its best, ya know, hearing the birds sing and all

Bless, that's just so sweet, I have thought similar myself. However, none of us know what we move onto. Perhaps the birds are tweeting there too! That's a whole other thread!

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 13:07:56

Totally agree grimble

pigletmania Tue 09-Apr-13 13:09:36

The vitriol and nastiness is awful and does indeed say a lot for te person displaying such inappropriate behaviour.whether you agreed with her or not an old lady died yesterday be discreet and act appropriately

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 13:09:52

Surely the reason why some tasteless people are having parties is down to MT's policies isn't it custardo?

herethereandeverywhere Tue 09-Apr-13 13:10:25

LaQueen "I don't give a toss, what these people suffered."

Yep, that sounds just like Thatcherism.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 13:15:42

"Surely the reason why some tasteless people are having parties is down to MT's policies isn't it custardo?"

you mean she made them have parties?

i think it's more down to the fact they chose to party. lots of people were affected by her policies and aren't partying.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 13:19:52

I said "some" people Booyhoo

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 13:23:33

ppfruit Brainwashing? I was there at the time Abs You don't think she had anything to do with deregulation? (she asks politely)

Funnily enough, I was there at the time too.

The trouble is, I just don't find you very plausible.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 13:25:12

that is exactly my point PPeatfruit

if the partying was down to her policies then everyone affected by them would be partying. they partying is a choice they have made because that is they sort of people they are, her policies aren't to blame for people lacking emotional maturity.

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 13:25:22

Surely the reason why some tasteless people are having parties is down to MT's policies isn't it custardo?

you mean she made them have parties?

I am sure Mrs Thatcher has been accused of a lot of things over the years, but making people have parties must surely be a new one!

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 13:26:24

her policies aren't to blame for people lacking emotional maturity < YY to this.

DoctorAnge Tue 09-Apr-13 13:28:26

Completely agree with LaQueen

stressyBessy22 Tue 09-Apr-13 13:31:57

yanbu. She was an evil bitch.i celebrate her death and dance on her grave.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 13:34:36

well, really you wont dance on her grave now will you? silly fool.

stressyBessy22 Tue 09-Apr-13 13:37:46

look up 'metaphor'. Silly fool yourself wink

FasterStronger Tue 09-Apr-13 13:41:22

she lost power in 1990.

anyone is still blaming her for their own situation, might benefit from getting over it.

DoctorAnge Tue 09-Apr-13 13:43:00

The level of a mind still blaming her for their own shortcomings my God...

Ditzydit Tue 09-Apr-13 13:44:39

The Labour Party's very own T Blair was responsible for many more deaths than poor old Mrs T. Some of the sad bitter people 'dancing on her grave' are just saying a lot about themselves.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 13:47:01

a metaphor for what? what are you going to do that you describe as dancing on her grave? confused

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 13:51:17


At the deaths of Argentinian servicemen

At the deaths of Irish Hunger strikers

At the deaths of villages, communities, families destroyed in the mining and industry strikes.

Go and read YOUR history.

People either have short memories, or they live in a vaccuum unaware of what goes on around them

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 13:51:50

Felling smug that she's outlived an 87 year old with Alzheimers, I expect.

kungfupannda Tue 09-Apr-13 13:54:30

I am getting so bored with this "she did this" and "she did that" crap.

It's simplistic and juvenile.

The government at the time did these things. Yes, she was a part of that, and a big part, but unless people are going to dance on the grave of every single member of the cabinet of the time, and every MP who endorsed any of her decisions, and every subsequent cabinet member who had an opportunity to reverse anything they disagreed with and chose not to do so, then it is abundantly clear that there is something else going on here.

She's a woman who dared to be elected at a difficult time and dared not to be the perfect, all-embracing matriarch of abundancy and fertility. History might not have been much more forgiving of a male leader, but I strongly suspect that the rhetoric right now would be very different.

"Ding dong the witch is dead"? Oh please. Society has been calling women witches for centuries, whenever a scapegoat was needed. Yes, as a man she would still have come in for criticism, but I do not for one moment believe that there would be this level of hysteria. She was memorable for many reasons, not all of them being the right ones, but the fact that she was the only woman leader is part of it.

I am from an old Tyneside ship-building/merchant-navy family. What happened there, in my lifetime was a tragedy. But I don't need a scapegoat for it. I don't need a Guy Fawkes to burn or a bogeyman to tell my children about - what happened to the north-east ship-builders happened, and it wasn't down to one super-human woman.

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 13:54:44


Thatcher's rejoice speech

Even her defence secretary was embarrassed at how gung ho she was

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 13:54:46


At the deaths etc

Go and read YOUR history

Obviously a rather unorthodox, but extremely exciting history! Perhaps one based on the style of biblical passages from two thousand years ago? Not at all unbiased then?

Sounds fab!

DoctorAnge Tue 09-Apr-13 13:54:55

Your the on in the vacuum!

Will you rejoice when Tony Blair dies too?

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 13:55:35

Not a list, just the fact that she rejoiced in other people's pain.

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 13:56:07

Yes because he is a murdering bastard too

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 13:56:38

There are people trying to arrest him for war crimes every time he appears in public

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 13:58:59

What she did for Irish relations with the UK is enough reason to want to dance on her grave alone.

SorrelForbes Tue 09-Apr-13 13:59:07

But wasn't her rejoice speech about the recapture of South Georgia and not specifically about deaths of Argentinian soldiers?

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 13:59:40

Peace process anyone???

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 14:00:28

Can anyone tell me why the miners, etc were unable to pick themselves up and do another job? I mean, if I lost my job, I would move to somewhere there were more jobs, or retrain. Why are the miners, shipbuilders, other strongly unionised workers exempt?

More and more I get the impression that these awkward, under-producing industries were jobs-for-the-boys, secure for life, didn't matter how badly you performed, work was guaranteed. Heavily sexist, because it really was jobs for the boys.

Why should the rest of a country prop up failing industries? Why can't UK shipbuilders, etc compete with other countries who are doing well in exactly the same industry?

Why is it if you go to one of these ex-mining villages, they are full of prejudiced people still going on about something that happened 30 years ago, when they were young enough to do something else with their lives?

I should say here that my grandfather was a miner, got out of it asap, and encouraged my father to do well at school and never go down the mines.

Nancy66 Tue 09-Apr-13 14:00:42

the 'rejoice' is in reference to Britain reclaiming the Falklands.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Tue 09-Apr-13 14:01:01

lessmiss you know that the 'rejoice' thing is a quotation from Thatcher herself, right?

DoctorAnge Tue 09-Apr-13 14:01:37

Framey you will be doing a lot of prancing around at the deaths of various politicians over the years. Ever think of just being reasonable about life and it's misfortunes?

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 14:02:05

Yeah good for your Dad

Yes, get on your bike

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 14:03:26

There's no point in arguing with idiots is there?

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 14:06:23

"What she did for Irish relations with the UK is enough reason to want to dance on her grave alone."

I know, signing the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985 thereby opening lines of communication and co-operation between the two countries, ultimately leading to the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. What a cock hmm

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 14:06:47

Funnily you still haven't explained why you think I'm implausible Abs I am listening to the radio and there have been some interesting discussions about MT's policies. Even moderates were describing her blatant hatred of miners and her selling off of the industries. Our privatised industries are not particularly praised for their brillliance now are they?

Interstingly she was surprised at how selfish the fat cats of the city were after she lowered their taxes.

Booyhoo Tue 09-Apr-13 14:08:01

"There's no point in arguing with idiots is there?"

you said it.

is 'idiots' another word for 'people who dont agree with me'?

StephaniePowers Tue 09-Apr-13 14:08:33

That MLK line, out of its context, is hackneyed and homespun and patently not true. The deaths of very few people, comparatively speaking, diminish us. Most deaths are entirely neutral, including those of some of the people we know. Think about it.

Thatcher had her ideology and she had her personality. Both to my mind were abhorrent and she ruined lives in a particular way: she took self-respect and removed it from every equation. For a society whose people were brought up with the value of self-respect as almost paramount, this was disastrous. Not only for those who found they had no more place, but also for those who made money hand over fist but looked like a most despicable lot whilst flaunting it. Horrid times.

DoctorAnge Tue 09-Apr-13 14:08:40

LessMiss that would mean actual hard work and aquiring a strong work ethic and ambition though wouldn't it?

Far too much to expect. Blame blame blame is so much easier on the ego isn't it..

CSIJanner Tue 09-Apr-13 14:10:57

It's one thing not to like someone and to not mourn their passing.

It's another thing to gloat and be smug about it when her grandchildren and especially her niece who looked after her in her later years, will be missing her desperately.

The parties were ghoulish. The rejoicing, parties and smugness leaves a bad taste and reflects badly on us as a nation.

FWIW I didn't rejoice at Bin Laden, Saddam or Pinochet despite not agreeing and abhorring things they had done.

pigletmania Tue 09-Apr-13 14:11:10

The behaviour of people publically rejoicing and holding parties is disgusting and embarrassing, this country is going to the dogs. They ropably don't even have a clue who Thatcher is or wat her policies were. Mst were not even alive whilst she was in office

theonewiththenoisychild Tue 09-Apr-13 14:13:59

lessmiss the reason they couldnt just pick themselves up and get another job is that often mining villiages are rural like the one I come from I don't live there now but in those times you couldnt just get another property and up sticks and move. remember these people were some of the poorest in society it was a struggle for my grandparents to feed the kids and put clothes on their backs and shoes on their feet never mind anything else

bobbywash Tue 09-Apr-13 14:14:02

Sorry, how the Heck do you know she rejoiced.

The Falklands was a war, bugger the idea of exclusion zones, it was an enemy ship near (enough) to the islands and a task force. By any anology we should not have followed a german battleship to south america and waited for it outside the bay of a neutral country in WWII.

At the time the IRA were a terrorist group, murdering civilians and british soldiers alike. Also hunger strike is pretty self inflicted. The fact the blew up the a politician in the car park of the H of P, and killed Mountbatten, makes it wrong that they killed themselves does it?

I think she probably rejoiced at the downfall of scargill, not the decimation of the villages that followed the closure of uneconomic and unprofitable mines. Scargill wanted to bring down the government, fell into a trap and lost, in losing that he lost the whole industry, oh and he will still tell you he won, ergo listen to Arther it isn't he fault because he won, so he must have caused it then.

Sorry but whilst I didn't want to get involved in this debate that posting was just childish nonsense

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 14:14:07

LessMiss that would mean actual hard work and aquiring a strong work ethic and ambition though wouldn't it

No seriously, my grandfather came from a village in the heart of the Fife mining belt. Even in those days, mining wasn't considered a good job, but something you did if you were a hard working man and nothing else was available to you. You got out as soon as you could if you had any ambition and didn't want to do something dangerous and unpleasant.

But to go back to that village today, still mired in poverty but now benefits and drugs dependent, you would think being a miner was akin to winning the lottery. Still all voting the way their fathers did, and their fathers before them - fat lot of good its done them. Loads of public money pumped in for improvements, better leisure facilities than many private health clubs, so I supposed they've not done too badly.

Except they need people like me, to pay tax. But apparently I'm an idiot.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 14:24:28

I agree with your last post LessMiss. A lot of people live in the past, the good times etc and never want to accept they have to move on. A lot of people in that village and similar villages probably follow their parent's footsteps as far as voting is concerned because they haven't got a clue. They're not totally to blame though, politics was never high on the agenda when i was at school. Unless you're educated in these areas or have an interest in current affairs etc then it can be really difficult. You're left vulnerable believing everything that's written in the Daily Scum.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 14:27:26

I did mention upthread that the unions closed shops needed changing but it could 've been done more carefully. Removing the mining and shipping industries to China or wherever was shortsighted.

Some people find change really difficult though Abs there must've been some who relocated and retrained but if there are no jobs at all near the place your family lives it must be too expensive to do so.

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 14:27:35

It pisses me off when that stereotypical view of working class Scotland is portrayed by the people who shout the loudest and who have too much time on their hands. Plenty of people in Scotland did very well out of the Thatcher years and used their profits from their council house sales as deposits for expensive houses. I know several members of my family did. I live in an ex-mining area and I'm surrounded by £400,000 new builds with new cars outside and someone must be buying them. The shops are full of people of working age, during normal working hours, buying stuff. I often wonder if the left wing rhetoric is some form of guilt complex.

stressyBessy22 Tue 09-Apr-13 14:39:44

There is nothing wrong with selling council houses, nothing at all AS LONG AS the proceeds are used to build new houses for the next generation coming along and not to fund election bribes tax breaks for the rich.
lessmissabs how do you attribute the £400k new builds and cars in your area to maggie who hasn't been Pm for 23 years?
Further the reason why ship building etc failed in this country is largely because of government contracts awarded overseas!!!

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 14:41:04

The council house sell off was ridiculous. The councils were literally giving them away and not being allowed to build new ones creating a lot of homelessness. Oh I just remembered something else she did which was to centralise the power of the local councils, for a right winger that was a communist policy. She took away our right to democratically remove our councils if we didn't like their policies.

Nancy66 Tue 09-Apr-13 14:43:25

Labour had 13 years to reverse the right to buy council house policy and they never did.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 14:43:37

True stressy DH says "she knew the price of everything and the value of nothing"

StephaniePowers Tue 09-Apr-13 14:44:25

It was New Labour who didn't reverse anything, and they have their own brand of shitty behaviour for us to deal with.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 14:45:04

With regard to the Council Housing sell off you have to ask yourself what did the councils do with the money they made from the sales? They certainly didn't reinvest it in maintaining the remainder of their housing stock. Well not in Manchester anyway! That's a whole other thread.

Lemonylemon Tue 09-Apr-13 14:46:06

Transcript of the "Rejoice" speech from the Margaret Thatcher Foundation:


[video clip begins].
Ladies and gentlemen. The Secretary of State for Defence has just come over to give me some very good news and I think you'd like to have it at once.

[Text from video clip ends. BBC Radio News Report begins:]


[BBC Radio News Report begins]

The message we have got is that British troops landed on South Georgia this afternoon, shortly after 4 pm London time. They have now successfully taken control of Grytviken; at about 6 pm London time, the white flag was hoisted in Grytviken beside the Argentine flag. Shortly afterwards, the Argentine forces there surrendered to British forces. The Argentine forces offered only limited resistance to the British troops. Our forces were landed by helicopter and were supported by a number of warships, together with a Royal Fleet Auxiliary. During the first phase of this opinion, our own helicopters engaged the Argentine submarine, Santa Fé, off South Georgia. This submarine was detected at first light and was engaged because it posed a threat to our men and to the British warships launching the landing. So far, no British casualties have been reported. At present we have no information on the Argentine casualty position. [video clip begins] The Commander of the operation has sent the following message:"Be pleased to inform Her Majesty that the White Ensign flies alongside the Union Jack in South Georgia. God save the Queen."


What happens next Mr Nott ? What's your reaction …?


Just rejoice at that news and congratulate our forces and the marines.

[MT answers emphatically then turns towards the door of No.10]


[Begins walking back to the door of No. 10]


Are we going to war with Argentina Mrs Thatcher?


[pausing on the doorstep of No. 10]


LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 14:46:25

stressbybessy its because council house sales enabled people to get on the property ladder. Or they don't pay tax OR work in local government and get backhanders. It is bizarre; the average salary in my area is slightly above the national average, yet we are surrounded by megabucks houses. I don't just mean a few, but swathes of them. Allegedly this is a strong ex-mining, Labour area. DH and I are mere professionals and had to do buy a wreck and do it up slowly.

So why is it that countries like Germany, still have strong traditional industries and a far better manufacturing base than the UK? Is it because the Germans have a stronger work ethic and have better working practices?

Fargo86 Tue 09-Apr-13 14:46:44

Councils don't want to have anything to do with housing. It's too expensive, too much hard work and not glamourous enough. Hence so many council homes being turned over to HAs.

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 14:47:35

ppfruit Mrs Thatcher wasn't technically a right winger, but a neo-liberal.

If you look into political ideology, the notion of polarisation comes into play, which is possibly what you are getting at in your last post?

MajorDivvy Tue 09-Apr-13 14:52:53

So MT 'rejoiced' in the deaths of others did she? hmm
And you MT haters (I neither loved or hated her) think its wrong do you? hmm
But it's ok to rejoice over her death because of that? hmm
And you don't think that in some small way that makes you just as bad? hmm

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 14:54:53

IMO the answer LessMiss to that question is to do with the 2ndW.W. completely decimating the old German industries so they had to rebuild and modernise which for some reason wasn't done here.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 15:01:17

The miner's strike was obviously very divisive. And I can understand why ex-miner's still hate her. But I feel their blame is misplaced.

Flatpackhamster posted a very interesting article the other day which I can't find now. If anyone can find it and link it I'd be grateful.

The gist of it was that basically mining was VERY uneconomical. They needed large subsidies (> £1.5billion p/a) just to stay alive and even more subsidies to convince UK companies to buy UK coal (since they could get it cheaper from abroad). When Scargill was asked what losses he think were acceptable to keep unprofitable mines in operation his reply was something like: "..the loss is without limit"

In that sort of context all Thatcher was doing was refusing to let the NUM hold the UK to ransom.

If they want to blame someone, maybe blame Scargill for convincing miner's to strike when there really wasn't an alternative.

Abra1d Tue 09-Apr-13 15:13:16

Skargill is the true villain, it's true.

If you read up on the unions in the seventies it is, with rare exceptions, an awful story. Want to start a new company, employing people? Forget about it. Unless you operate under union, uneconomic terms, you haven't a hope. Want a job for life? If you have union connections or your father works for XXX--you're in. Fairness didn't come into it. Women or black/Asian people? Not a hope. White and male was what mattered.

The unions actually carried out strikes during WW2 FGS: in essential industries. That's how much love they had for their countrymen. It beats me how anyone can defend these undemocratic dinosaurs. They may have had their place earlier in the twentieth century, but by the seventies they did their members, and the rest of us, more harm than good.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 15:14:30

Stephanie Powers Most of the money from council house sales went to the government, not the local authority. They were only allowed to keep 28% of the capital receipts. Not enough with which to buy land to build more, nor enough to keep a large housing stock in good order. That's the way Maggie planned it, so that the Local Authority would lose the bulk of their housing to housing associations which are essentially run as a business. What she didn't plan for was that many would operate on a charitable basis. She was hoping for more business investment.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 15:15:34

'New Labour could 've changed some of the policies and didn't bother' I'm not supporting them for one minute grin

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 15:16:34

"LaQueen "I don't give a toss, what these people suffered."

Yep, that sounds just like Thatcherism."

herethere if you just want to take only part of my paragraph, to attempt to score a point, then fine.

However...the whole of my paragraph illustrates that regardless of what they suffered, these people have no right to vandalise other people's property, and trash public streets.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 15:17:14

IMO Party Politics is a load of crap and hot air. So much bleedin' hot air!!

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 15:22:02

Check out The Times obituary on Rex Hunt.
Sorry, but she was in the wrong.

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 15:22:46

Agree Abra1d - the Unions were every bit as elitist, closed-shop and jobs for the boys as any public school, Whitehall enclave.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 15:32:36

Yes true LaQueen and Abraid but you don't get (well you used not to) anyone calling for the downfall of old boy upperclass enclaves .To be fair though MT wasn't keen on the Upper class old boy networks either.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 15:34:02

They HATED her grin

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 15:35:13

Oh, the old Etonians feckin hated her...a mere gel, telling them what to do...?

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 15:38:49

Yeah and a GROCERS' DAUGHTER to boot !!!! "She was from TRADE doncha know" grin

Varya Tue 09-Apr-13 15:39:21

Margaret Thatcher was not appreciated by me or anyone in my family but we can't speak ill of the dead and I am sorry for those mourning her loss but I cannot understand why her funeral will be held with 'full military honours' as she was nothing to do with the army except sending soldiers to their death in the Falklands, just because, it seems to me, that her popularity in UK was waning.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 15:40:13

Of course she fancied herself as your name!!!

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 15:41:36

The Queen I mean! I agree varya BTW

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 15:42:47

she was nothing to do with the army except sending soldiers to their death in the Falklands

Huh? She sent the soldiers to recapture land which the UK owned and liberate UK citizens whom had been held hostage in effect by Argentina.

If that is not what people join the armed services to do, I don't know what is! Of course some inevitably would die. Something she was painfully aware of and personally wrote letters to each fallen soldier.

FasterStronger Tue 09-Apr-13 15:44:10

she seemed brave after the IRA bombing in Brighton.

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 15:47:59

The IRA's statement after the bombing was- “Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once – you will have to be lucky always.”

I think I would've shit myself. Those boys meant business.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 15:48:59

niceguy When you say the U.K 'owned' the Falklands how exactly did we get to 'own' it then? Was it by walking into it and saying we owned it? is it not nearer Argentina by a thousand miles or so than the U.K.?

We got rid of our empire a long time ago why should we want a pile of rocks in the middle of nowhere?

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 15:51:53

why should we want a pile of rocks in the middle of nowhere?

Self determination, innit?

FasterStronger Tue 09-Apr-13 15:54:15

yep - Self determination says the Falklands is UK.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 16:02:59

ppeatfruit. Geography isn't really useful in determining 'ownership' If so Alaska is closer to Russia and joined to Canada. I'm sure the US would not think that therefore Russia/Canada own Alaska.

You can read the history of the Falkland's yourself and it's a bit messy as you can imagine from discovering an island in the 1600's!

As for the pile of rocks in the middle of nowhere, I honestly think had Argentina waited a bit longer, Maggie probably would have sold it to them. It had no strategic value and economically insignificant. But once another country invades your territory, you can't just say 'oh well'. If someone invaded the Shetland islands, should we just say 'ah well, it's just a small little island and noone really wants it anyway'

LtEveDallas Tue 09-Apr-13 16:07:29

Because the Falkland Islanders are British Citizens and wish to remain so.

bobbywash Tue 09-Apr-13 16:09:39

Re the Falklands, british were there in the 1500's, but didn't have control in the modern sense of the word. The Argentinian claim relates to a period post 1800, but prior to the time when it came under British Territory in 1833 (about 3 years of Argentinian claim) it had also been French and Spanish (when the pope divided the world into Spanish and Portugese areas)

navada Tue 09-Apr-13 16:14:22

'A pile of rocks in the middle of nowhere'

The waters around the Falklands contain oil & lots of it, but apart from that minor fact it's British with British people living on it, but hey, let's just roll over & give it up.

navada Tue 09-Apr-13 16:21:17

Why do you think the Argentines wanted 'a pile of rocks in the middle of nowhere' if they weren't going to benefit from it?

Ullena Tue 09-Apr-13 16:25:25

Condolences to Lady Thatcher's friends and family, I myself have nothing but the utmost respect for her. And I expect that she herself would simply deliver a suitably scathing rebuke to those "dancing on her grave", she was always very eloquent.

She's at peace now, anyway, and free of her illness too, bless her. All those pathetic things rioting? They have to continue to live in the hellhole that planet Earth is fast becoming. But this time there isn't anyone willing or able to step up and ring in the required changes.

Off-topic: what should Britain's response to North Korea be?

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 16:26:37

After the Falklands she wouldn't allow anyone disabled on the victory parades.

LaQueen Tue 09-Apr-13 16:28:10

"she was nothing to do with the army except sending soldiers to their death in the Falklands"

Erm...don't soldiers kinda, you know... expect to go to war, on occassion? Unless, they didn't read the small print, and just thought that combat uniform was for easi-iron purposes only, and the really big, heavy duty tanks were Elf & Safety gorn mad...

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 16:34:54

Off-topic: what should Britain's response to North Korea be?

Pretty much ignore them. As a mate of mine always says.

Who is the biggest idiot? The idiot? Or the person trying to reason with them?

Chipstick10 Tue 09-Apr-13 16:36:23

As far as North Korea goes, don't feed the troll.

Snickersnoodles Tue 09-Apr-13 16:44:35

I wonder how many people on these threads actually remember her doing any of these things. I am 35 so was 1 when she came to power and 12 when she left. I can't remember knowing anything about her politics. A lot of people on my Facebook doing the gravedancing thing are about 10 years my junior so i am baffled.

Of course I know what she did now but I can't manage to care either way if she is dead or not. She had no place in my life as for most of it she was retired and was hardly heard of. I feel sorry for her family as I would for anyone that had died but I can't understand why people get either pleased or desperately sad that someone they didn't know (celebrity/royal/politician), dies.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 16:45:55

Interesting about the Falklands maybe its the oil that the U.K. wants. The Shetlands use to be Norwegian didn't they? (just to muddy the waters a bit more grin

Minion Tue 09-Apr-13 16:47:23

My dad went to the Falklands to fight.
He signed up to the army in the first instance because of lack of opportunities in the north east. He knew exactly what he was getting in to. He fought for Queen and country and to this day is very proud to have. He's a solid labour supporter (being from the north east) but he didn't think twice about fighting for our country. He respected MT, he may not have liked her, but he knew that if she had given in to Argentinas demands, others would have followed suit.
'Tis a shame that upon taken redundancy from the forces he was effectively left to fend for himself. Any politician who pledged to look after our veterans would get my interest.
Before anyone chirps up saying something along the lines of 'see Thatcher didn't even look after our squaddies', he left after she was ousted fron Number 10.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 16:49:58

I'm 54. I was a councillor when she was still in power. I am old enough to remember it all.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 16:57:46

Iam 62 and am old enough to remember it all too Snicker

Dawndonna Interesting to be a councillor then; how did you and your colleagues feel about the capping of the councils at that time?

Lueji Tue 09-Apr-13 17:04:05

Re the Falklands, british were there in the 1500's, but didn't have control in the modern sense of the word. The Argentinian claim relates to a period post 1800, but prior to the time when it came under British Territory in 1833 (about 3 years of Argentinian claim) it had also been French and Spanish (when the pope divided the world into Spanish and Portugese areas)

I'd happily claim all territories East of the Mid Atlantic back to the Portuguese. grin

Which section does NK belong to, though?wink

Lueji Tue 09-Apr-13 17:06:55

Never mind. I've just checked and NK belongs to the Portuguese section.
Better keep things as they are. grin

Dominodonkey Tue 09-Apr-13 17:12:35

"After the Falklands she wouldn't allow anyone disabled on the victory parades."

Evidence please.

If this is true she was a bit shit at hiding Simon Weston away....

Self-determination? Like when she called the ANC and Nelson Mandela terrorists for fighting for their own country, where the minority oppressed the majority, based on skin colour.

soverylucky Tue 09-Apr-13 17:18:48

Doesn't matter what you think of anyone - death is never to be "celebrated". I think it is perfectly possible to hate a person's actions and to think that they themselves might not have been a nice/good person but the whole "street party" stuff is quite beyond my comprehension. If people had a party the day she resigned I could totally understand it -crack open the champagne and do what you like - but when that person is dead - what is the actual point other than to cause upset to the deceased persons friends and family who are greiving. Remember how you felt the last time you lost someone close to you - that gut wrenching pain and ache in your heart that you think will never, ever leave you. Now think about how you would have felt if accompanied with that you saw people celebrating the cause of your suffering.
At the risk of sounding like my mother "it's not big and it's not clever."

People have very short memories. This country was on its knees before Thatcher was elected.

Union bosses got to vote on behalf of the whole union, wasn't it Thatcher who insisted on every union member getting a vote therefore stopping the country being brought to its knees by the union bosses, who really didn't always have the union members best interests at heart?

Yes mining and manufacturing declined but this would have happened at some point under a conservative or labour government and Thatcher had the foresight to see that economies would be underpinned by the financial services sector. Britain would be the poor relative of Europe if that had not have happened.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 17:24:52

I wonder how many people on these threads actually remember her doing any of these things. I am 35 so was 1 when she came to power and 12 when she left. I can't remember knowing anything about her politics.

In a nutshell it's basically this.

When MT came to power in 1979, the UK was flat broke. Seriously it was. Unions ran the country and had already seen off two PM's and had a third scared. The state had no money, our economy was a basket case, inflation was rampant. Power cuts were common, people often worked 3 day weeks, rubbish went uncollected and the dead lay unburied.

MT implemented what is now known as 'Thatcherism' which is basically the principle that the state should do the bare minimum and championed the idea that people should be hardworking, self reliant and the concept of individual liberty.

As a result a lot of the old loss making industries which only were around because the state were pouring money into subsidising them had to close. Those employees who had previously enjoyed jobs for life were suddenly found they didn't. The miner's went on a bitter strike expecting the state to give them money so they could keep mining coal at a price twice what we could buy it from abroad were pissed off because she wouldn't give in.

The Falklands conflict was a godsend for her but unlike some people believe hardly of her making. Her support of Reagan & Goberchev helped win the cold war.

By the time she left by any measure you care to use, UK was a stronger, richer and more successful country. We were no longer known as the 'sick man of Europe' and a basketcase.

Those who hate her for her policies tend to be those who think the government should support them rather than they support themselves. To the right she is the champion. To the left the devil.

Think that about sums it up.

SmellieWellies Tue 09-Apr-13 17:29:51

Not only was the Uk flat broke, it had to go to the IMF for a handout.

Just saying.

Altinkum Tue 09-Apr-13 18:14:53

Our country was on the bones of its arse, the recession we are in now , was a picnic to what it was then, food parcels, rations, etc... She was hardly left with a utopia when she took power, the industry's were a massive drain to us.

People forget about the facts, but if lies are told often enough, then people will start believing them.


what about the FACT that one pit a week closed during the Wilson government? What about the FACT that 346,000 miners left the industry between 1963 and 1968?

What about the FACT that the taxpayer subsidy for the coal industry was 1.3 Billion annually in 1979 (that figure doesn't include the cost to industry who at the time were obliged to source British coal)?

At the time we were importing coal from Australia because it was cheaper to ship it by sea than pay our own miners to dig it out. FACT! That is huge! In itself. 73% of Germany coal mines closed down. It wasn't just the UK that closed the pits, although Germany wasn't as badly affected as Britain was.

The big question is, putting all the rhetoric to one side, why did Labour reverse NONE of the previous governments policies? To date NO mines have.

Yes it was hard, it was bloody needed tho, and yes it affected the miners, the steel industry etc..... LOOK at today, today labour, material, workers etc....all go overseas as its cheaper to do so, it was THEN 30 years ago, how did anyone think it was ever going to last is beyond me.

ppeatfruit Tue 09-Apr-13 18:42:53

niceguy your nutshell has forgotten that MT and Reagan deregulated the banks and so began the gravy train for greedy bankers. So many people forget this and I'm not effing making it up so we may not in thrall to the unions but we're in thrall to the bonus hungry selfish pigging bankers and their ilk. They owe billions and billions how is that leaving the U.K. in a good state?

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 18:50:30

You need to google a bit more. Quite a few mines re-opened.

Snickersnoodles Tue 09-Apr-13 19:03:43

niceguy Thanks for the lowdown. I have heard some of those things but not all.

I was not saying that no-one who hates MT can remember it but certainly a lot of people on mine and other peoples Facebook are early twenties.

Surely those who were targeted by her policies (miners etc) are not going to like her much but those who were helped by her will have thought was ok. There are always winners and losers under any government and you as citizens will like the government who makes it better for you.

I'm not a fan of this government as they have taken money from my benefits. Still don't think I will have a party when DC dies.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 19:07:30

ppeatfruit. With hindsight yes the banks should have been better regulated. But hindsight is wonderful and bear in mind that the crash happened in 2008 and she stopped being PM in 1990. That's 18 years after she was PM. That's a BIG leap to hold her responsible for something which happened nearly two decades after she left power.

Besides which our economic issues in the UK have very little to do with the banks. Yes they made a mess but in the grand scale of things a mere pin prick. The actual cost of the bailouts was around £124billion. Eye watering yes. But barely a year's government budget deficit. A mere sidenote to the overall national debt of £1.1 TRILLION.

The stupid figures of the banks costing us trillions are by idiots who cannot tell the difference between actual money spent and money that was guaranteed. What I mean is the UK govt guaranteed the banks bad debts and the total sum did at it's peak run into trillions. But adding up the total liabilities is about as realistic as adding up how much it would cost Directline if every single homeowner lost their house or every car owner crashed their car in the same year.

The bottom line is that the biggest danger to our country is the fact our books don't balance. Not by a long shot. We're overspending every year around the same amount as the total cost of the banking bailout. Except with the banks we got shares and maybe if we are lucky one day we can flog them and make a bit back.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 19:11:00

Sorry I should add sources:

UK National Debt

Bank Bailout

Abra1d Tue 09-Apr-13 19:45:36

You are absolutely right, niceguy. I am bored with people going on about the banks. Morally disreputable as some of them were, they are small change in the scheme of things. Every single bloody day that Blair and Brown were in charge of this country we spent money we didn't have. That's why we are in trouble. We can't afford the way we live.

John Major left UK.plc in a good nick. Who screwed it up? Labour.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 19:53:18

Yep, that's quite possible Abra1d. Although for various reasons I would disagree.
However, the rich get rich, the poor get poorer. Therein lies the Thatcher legacy.

cuillereasoupe Tue 09-Apr-13 20:01:13

For the record, Hitler was democratically elected.

stressyBessy22 Tue 09-Apr-13 20:05:44

A prime minister isn't really elected though is s/he?
You vote only for an Mp for your constituency and that is where the democracy ends.

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 20:07:49

Care to list your reasons for disagreeing Dawndonna?

Your last bit about the rich getting richer is very true. I'm not sure that is down to Thatcher though. I'd argue that modern technology and the collective failure of the government's across the world to work together has had more of an impact.

SueDoku Tue 09-Apr-13 21:04:39

The rich are getting richer (in this country) helped in no small part by the housing shortage caused by the sale of council houses and the failure to spend the money raised on building more housing stock to replace them; this was exacerbated by the abolition of rent controls and secure tenancies for private rented property. Rents have rocketed, there is no security and landlords have raked in the money in ever-increasing amounts ever since. Property speculation has replaced pension saving for many people, and the end result is the mess that we are in today.

maleview70 Tue 09-Apr-13 21:08:20

She won't be missed in my part of the world.

What she did for working class families in the North of England left a bitter taste for many.

ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmmmmmm Tue 09-Apr-13 21:10:50

The housing shortage has not been caused by the sale of council houses. It has been caused by the changing nature of families - many more single adult households, -failure to build caused by an archaic planning system,imigration and the collapse of the construction industry.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 21:12:28

The shortage of social housing today is not entirely down to selling off council houses. Housing Associations and PFI schemes took over when the councils sold them the rest of their housing stock. Over the past few years HAs have built more houses than ever before. The question remains as to what the councils did with the money the raised from selling the stock. They frittered it away, that's what, instead of investing.

Also, the government's lack of immigration control is as much to blame for the drain on the housing resource and failure to act on it before now. The horse has already bolted.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 21:15:36

As I said before. The councils did not fritter the money away. They weren't allowed it. They were only allowed 28% of capital receipts.

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 21:41:46

It is interesting that we had, what, twelve years of a Labour government to reverse some of Thatcher's policies. You know, the ones that are always brought up in these debates- selling off council housing, deregulation of the banks, mine closures, privatisation of industry, getting rid of free milk for primary school pupils.... If these policies were that unpopular, if they made such little financial sense, why weren't they reversed under Blair or Brown? Because from what I can see, not only did Labour capitalise on the changes made by Thatcher, they extended some of them with further deregulation, more "wars" (with less basis than the Falklands), continuing right to buy yet failing to build more housing, etc. And what's changed under Miliband?

niceguy2 Tue 09-Apr-13 22:16:07

And what's changed under Miliband?

Well....apparently these are Labour's bright ideas:

16 policies Labour would implement

Unfortunately as much as Miliband & Balls claim they would continue to tame the deficit, I don't see anything in the list which even comes close to this. It's more spending with a little tax here and there with nice words like "..partially funded by a tax on..." in other words..."The numbers don't add up but..."

If I could sum it up in a sentence. Basically Labour policies are akin to rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic and ignoring the elephant in the room.

Altinkum Tue 09-Apr-13 22:39:14

Of course mines opened, but not by the governments, they opened by privatisation.

Google il leave that to you.

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 22:47:52

If you behave like there's no such thing as society, in the end there isn't

FrameyMcFrame Tue 09-Apr-13 22:48:49

And TheCraicDealer...she hated the good Friday agreement

In 1999, the year after the Good Friday Agreement was signed, Lady Thatcher expressed her revulsion at the sight of "Irish terrorist murderers….flooding out of jail" as just one example of what she regarded as the erosion of Britain's way of life under Tony Blair's Labour government.

superstarheartbreaker Tue 09-Apr-13 22:52:49

YABU ; I don't vote conservative or agree with many of her policies but to be pleased about her death is a bit odd tbh.

anothershittynickname Tue 09-Apr-13 22:57:35

as she was nothing to do with the army except sending soldiers to their death in the Falklands

Possibly THE most uneducated sentence I have ever read!!

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 23:07:44

Thatcher wasn't the only person who felt bitter at watching prisoners walk free, from both sides. She may not have liked some of the ins and outs of the agreement that followed thirteen years later, but the AI agreement still opened dialogue between the two countries. Not only that, it gave the Republic a say in the running of NI. But she paid the price by alienating Ulster Unionists, traditionally one of her staunchest allies.

She also made some pretty catastrophic mistakes, but we've got the benefit of hindsight here. If you believe Gerry Adams it was a war- that's not easy territory for any leader to try and navigate.

LessMissAbs Tue 09-Apr-13 23:10:00

Sudoku the housing shortage is at least a big part due to the awful planning system in this country, which favours big developments by big developers in zoned areas on the edges of existing settlements which only they can afford to develop. Luxury properties have a higher profit margin than lower cost builds.

Its also incredibly expensive to self build in this country due to plot rarity and cost, when compared to other European countries such as Belgium.

I'd like to see 1/5 of all new builds allocated as self build only...

LoopaDaLoopa Wed 10-Apr-13 03:51:31

I'm here. Different time zone is all. Bemused by the assertion that I must be a teenager simply for disagreeing with some of you. I've seen those tactics used by certain posters before, designed to patronise others into submission. It's silly and I feel pity that you Abel you have to stoop to that level.

On reflection, however, after discussing this at length last night and thinking about some of the more thoughtful posts on this thread, I have changed my view a little.

I was unaware of any public displays of celebration, and do agree that is made crass by the fact that she has been powerless for so long, much in the same way as Gadafi. I still think it is everyone's right to feel any emotion, and relief when someone you intensely dislike dies is perfectly legitimate. I agree, however, that pleasure is different from relief, and that celebration should be reserved for those whose actions are stopped by their deaths.

On the matter of Hitler Nd Savile, it would have given many people a great deal more satisfaction, I a sure, had they lived to stand trial.

piprabbit Wed 10-Apr-13 04:04:51

In what way was Gaddafi "powerless for so long" and comparable to a very elderly, retired, ill and confused woman?

He was a tyrant who was killed, on the run, during the civil war in which he was deposed. Given the chance, he would still have been trying to lead his followers in bloody battle and forcing himself back into power. Instead his opponents found him and killed him.

Not really the same, at all.

LoopaDaLoopa Wed 10-Apr-13 04:16:50

I'm sorry, I do feel like a dick now, I mean the Lockerbie bomber, not Gadafi. Can't remember his name right now...

LoopaDaLoopa Wed 10-Apr-13 04:18:31

Al-megrahi, that's it. I absolutely do deserved the pasting for being ill-informed mown, I appreciate that. blush

sashh Wed 10-Apr-13 04:24:29

...except Mrs T was a democratically elected leader

So was Hitler.

Altinkum Wed 10-Apr-13 07:18:51

What's hitler got to do with the UK,

Elected or not employed no part in MT policies.

lockets Wed 10-Apr-13 07:23:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NotTreadingGrapes Wed 10-Apr-13 07:46:46

I hate myself for agreeing with Russell Brand.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 07:59:36

Nice guy. Whilst not agreeing with Labour Policies at the moment, in what way are the Tories 'continuing to tame the deficit' spending has increased year on year. We are no less in debt than when they took power.

Lueji Wed 10-Apr-13 08:47:00

Btw, Hitler was NOT elected.
He was 2nd and was appointed chancellor by the president as the coalition government wasn't working.
And this led to the creation of a dictatorship.
He did work under the cover of legitimacy but working his way towards becoming a dictator.

bobbywash Wed 10-Apr-13 08:57:45

Just to add to "the Hitler was democratically elected bit", as said it's a slight twist of the facts, Germany had a form of PR and after his tactics and a failed coup the Nazi party became the largest party in germany, but still way short of sufficient numbers to form a majority. Hitler was appointed chancellor in 33, a year after the election, and then had an act passed that gave him dictatorial control, and never having to face another election. He then rigged the parliament to replace it with his own supporters. Thatcher OTOH, faced 3 elections and won them all.

Oh and if any quotes the "there is no society" comment, try reading the rest of that part of the speech to give it some context, for those who are hard of googling, here it is:-

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand “I have a problem, it is the Government’s job to cope with it!” or “I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!” “I am homeless, the Government must house me!” and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first… There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate."

I would be hard pressed to find many people who disagree

ppeatfruit Wed 10-Apr-13 09:04:42

Yes boobywash but MT herself was sad that that those she enriched did not "help by their own efforts those who are unfortunate" E.G. The bankers and wealthy tax dodgers.

ppeatfruit Wed 10-Apr-13 09:05:41

sorry for changing your name!!! bobbywash

bobbywash Wed 10-Apr-13 10:07:10

ppeatfruit Just wondered what you were thinking off with the name change,
That's exactly the point of the society speech, it is not soley the responsibility of Government, they can engineer a position, but it still takes the will of the people to do it, and clearly from some there is no will.

FrameyMcFrame Wed 10-Apr-13 10:17:52

It's important not to let the press and media rewrite history over the coming days, painting Thatcher as some sort of beatific great leader on a par with Churchill ... although judging by some of the responses on this thread it seems like they already did a good job of that.

ppeatfruit Wed 10-Apr-13 11:25:18

Framey I agree but she was an odd woman in that she talked about becoming green and helping the environment (due to her scientific background) but many of her policies were carbon heavy e.g. encouraging car ownership; she said that loosers went on buses. grrrrr angry

LoopaDaLoopa Wed 10-Apr-13 14:29:26

I'm so sorry that I did such a bad job of this thread. <bit drunk now>

ppeatfruit Wed 10-Apr-13 15:07:27

Why Loopa ? we had a good discussion (it was quite calm for M.N.!! grin)

Lemonylemon Wed 10-Apr-13 15:16:57

MT herself was sad that that those she enriched did not "help by their own efforts those who are unfortunate"

The thing is, human greed is always going to be there. Even in communist USSR, there were some comrades who were more equal than others.....

limitedperiodonly Wed 10-Apr-13 16:39:33

Don't feel too badly about it loopy. I got the gist of what you were saying, even if others didn't.

And I've never felt it was a good idea to starve people of the oxygen of publicity wink

limitedperiodonly Wed 10-Apr-13 16:40:37

Or loopa even

Unami Wed 10-Apr-13 17:01:46

I don't know why anyone would question the connections you drew to people like Pinochet and Pol Pot. Her support for the Khmer Rouge and Pinochet's regime is well documented.

limitedperiodonly Wed 10-Apr-13 17:25:18

Charles Moore, ex-editor of the Telegraph, was on R4 just now expressing surprise that Labour speeches about her in Parliament today were inoffensive. He made special reference to Ed Miliband's speech, which was respectful but accurate.

Anyone would think he was disappointed. wink

He also whinged about the Labour MPs who stayed away. Fewer than half Labour MPs did that. Sky News attempted to goad the MP for Rotherham who did so, sorry to her but I've forgotten her name, and to her credit she gave a measured response.

limitedperiodonly Wed 10-Apr-13 17:32:54

Ed was quite statesmanlike actually.

He even managed to piss off Iain Duncan-Smith by reminding us that he wrote a pamphlet called There Is Such A Thing As Society. Ouch.

And it wasn't just me that noticed Duncan-Smith's discomfort. It was noted by Sky News's Tory Boy deputy political editor Joey Jones.

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Apr-13 09:37:15

Unami She also supported the status quo in South Africa when it was under Apartheid by slagging off Mandela et al.

niceguy2 Thu 11-Apr-13 10:16:42

I just read this on the C4 factcheck website. Very useful in countering what seems to be almost claims of fantasy from the lefties.

The Thatcher Myths

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Apr-13 11:40:25

Also useful for countering the rights' claims, a very fair summation actually bit of an own goal there niceguy2 grin

niceguy2 Thu 11-Apr-13 14:21:36

Not an own goal at all. I'm all for a fair and unbiased write up of the facts, no matter where it leads.

What I dislike are claims based on unfounded perception rather than facts.

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Apr-13 14:40:04

Yes I agree.The facts are usually the most difficult things to find. I like Channel 4.

FasterStronger Thu 11-Apr-13 14:41:16

Yes niceguy, thatcher as imagined by the left, does seem to be a mythical creature.

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Apr-13 14:48:42

Also as imagined by the right IMO faster They do fondly forget her faults esp. as they knifed her in the back at the end!

IMO She holds a place in everyone's imaginations because she WAS the first woman P.M. and people expected someone with a little more empathy than the usual male Tory politician has but we (esp. the women) were disappointed.

FasterStronger Thu 11-Apr-13 15:25:53

pp - IMO she went power crazy but haven't they all?

john major (shagging Edwina)

I would like more facts about what she did wrong and less BS.

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Apr-13 15:53:18

Okay she dissed the miners and most of the working classes (John Sergeant clearly heard her say "it's war")
BTW Iam apolitical i'm just saying what happened Iam old so was there and compos mentis at the time.

IMO she sold off the council houses far too cheaply and the councils were not allowed to use the money to build new ones; she capped their spending (thus stopping elected councils from doing what they had a mandate to do). Without mentioning the poll tax that caused huge ructions so she had to back down.

She refused to lower VAT on sanitary ware for women. They are not luxuries FFS.

She did nothing to assist women or gays (in fact clause 28 was anti gay) in politics or any other walk of life.

As I said upthread she brown nosed Pres. idiot Reagan and they both deregulated the banks thus giving us the greedy pigs in trough attitude that the darling wankers are trying desperately to hang on to.

There are many other things including huge hypocrisy about the environment (she dissed non car owners while pretending to be environmentally aware) .

niceguy2 Thu 11-Apr-13 16:23:06

She didn't diss the miners. Scargill deliberately picked a fight with her over something she knew that she couldn't give in on.

You can't have the unions running the country. Otherwise why the hell are we bothering to vote in a general election?

Dawndonna Thu 11-Apr-13 18:35:03

Would that be why SHE stockpiled coal before picking a fight Niceguy or was that just a coincidence? Douglas Hurd didn't seem to think so on Newsnight a couple of nights ago.

FasterStronger Thu 11-Apr-13 18:57:37

Would that be why SHE stockpiled coal before picking a fight

energy security. like we should be doing now but aren't.

Dawndonna Thu 11-Apr-13 19:05:11

Faster I agree with you, prices are crazy and we are in a dangerous situation and rather at the mercy of others with regard to our energy. I read a terrifying article in the Guardian a few years back about what could happen to our supply if various coups etc happened in Russia.

The point I was trying to make though, was that even Hurd, and in fact Maude, both stated quite clearly that she was the one picking the fight.

AnotherTeacherMum Thu 11-Apr-13 19:28:29

I personally feel that it is in poor taste to actively celebrate someone's death. However I am getting a little fed up of the 'she was old and someone's mother, how dare they...' comments.

Vey recently we have found out that MT and her cabinet colluded with police after Hillsborough to authenticate their (now known to be fraudulent) version of events.

Each of the 96 people who died (including some children) were someone's mother/ son/ brother etc. They did not die peacefully, in old age,in comfort at the Ritz.They died terrifying, painful deaths. Their families not only had to deal with these harowing events but also fabrications that they were drunk, urinating on those who had already died, pickpocketing etc. I think that is a little worse than downloading the 'Wicked Witch' track as a way of letting the world know that there are plenty of people who feel that her actions were,in fact, utterly wicked. She does not deserve the pomp and ceremony funeral that she is to receive.

I personally would like to think that I am above actively celebrating anyone's death, however I fully understand that many people will have a strong sense of relief and closure from her death.

I also really dislike that anyone who feels strongly that her politics or ideologies were wrong and dangeous are made out to be work shy, benefit scrounging 'lefties'. There are plenty of hard working, educated people who hold this view.

As a final complaint there WAS NO RIOTING IN LIVERPOOL!!!! I was in the city centre that night. I don't know about the other cities accused but the fact that about 5 drunk people were photographed on the steps of the station (in that famously non- sensationalist paper, The Daily Mail) with a banner does not equate to a bloody riot.

MsBella Thu 11-Apr-13 20:21:59

What she did is getting downplayed a lot... she ripped peoples lives apart
But I'm personally not rejoicing her death

fatlotofgood Thu 11-Apr-13 20:47:12

Partying because MT has died is not only disrespectful but distasteful IMHO. MT can in no way be compared to Pol Pot/Hitler etc and it's not only ridiculous but also insulting to those who suffered under their leadership to do so. She has been away from politics for over 20 years now and was an old and frail lady when she died. It saddens me to see so many men and women totally lacking in empathy for her grieving family and seeing people that weren't even born before Thatcher became PM using her death as an excuse to get drunk and violent sad

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Apr-13 21:05:19

So niceguy you're calling John Sargeant a liar are you? He HEARD her diss the miners.

Dawndonna Thu 11-Apr-13 21:06:06

It saddened me to see so many people with mental health problems on the street when she was in power. It saddened me to see communities torn apart, the very heart ripped out of them. It saddened me to see that the parents/families of Hillsborough victims had to fight for every fucking begrudging sentence of truth.
I find it distasteful and disrespectful when people say it's distasteful and disrespectful for people to mark her death in the manner that they see fit.

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Apr-13 21:08:58

So instead of the unions running the country we've overreached ourselves by bailing out the "too big to fail" Non competitive banks.

ppeatfruit Thu 11-Apr-13 21:15:00

Dawndonna I agree. But she was leader of a Tory party who agreed with her at the start (apparently Nigel Lawson pushed through the Big Bang in the city) so perhaps the 'partying' is an over reaction which would 've been better when she was deposed.

Dawndonna Thu 11-Apr-13 21:48:12

Unfortunately, I suspect by that time, we were so relieved we didn't think of it, and then following a good few years of 'Nu Labour' and then another couple of years of Tory cuts, those that suffered the most have become so disenfranchised that I suspect they don't really see an alternative.

I have said, were I able I would protest, I have pointed out she tried to remove that right. I would not be violent, I don't believe in violence, I do however understand that when you become so marginalised as to be 'other', it's an easily comprehensible route to follow. Doesn't mean I approve, just that I comprehend.

niceguy2 Thu 11-Apr-13 23:54:19

Would that be why SHE stockpiled coal before picking a fight Niceguy or was that just a coincidence? Douglas Hurd didn't seem to think so on Newsnight a couple of nights ago.

It's called contingency planning. Standard practice in business and government. I'm sure they have many plans and contingencies for all sorts of eventualities. The emergency services have lots of NBC suits in the event of a nuclear, biological or chemical attack. It doesn't mean they are trying to provoke someone into attacking does it?

So niceguy you're calling John Sargeant a liar are you? He HEARD her diss the miners.

Not aware of what he says he overheard so can't comment. I saw your post earlier but I'd like to see what he said in full and when it allegedly was said. I tried a quick google but didnt find anything. Could it be a quote taken out of context like her 'there is no such thing as society' quote? In that instance if you read the full transcript and put it into context, the whole thing changes.

My overall point is that of course her policies were tough. But it was a tough time. The UK was economically on its knees. Frankly we were fucked. So yes her policies undoubtedly were hard on a lot of people. But in order to stop the rot and ensure the nation had a decent future those hard decisions were made. It would be lovely if you could implement policies where noone loses out and everyone is happy. But you can't do that in the good times, let alone the bad.

But what i see is a lot of people blaming her for stuff which is blatantly untrue. The miners strike was Scargill's fault. Pure and simple. The Falkland's war was Argentina's fault. The banking crisis was 18 years after she was in power and 11 years into a Labour govt...seriously?? Blame Maggie? Give me a break.

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 00:42:03

Douglas specifically said that she hoarded it ahead of a 'battle' with them.

As for being up the creek without a paddle, economically, do read your own links.

applecrumbleandcream Fri 12-Apr-13 01:02:47

I hated her before and I hate her now! Makes no difference to me whether she's alive or not.

piprabbit Fri 12-Apr-13 01:11:40

Seems like a waste of headroom and energy to hate a dead person.

Dominodonkey Fri 12-Apr-13 01:14:54


Much respect to you for all your hard work on these threads. It's hard when people are so entrenched in their often misguided views and so intent on heaping vitriol upon someone.

She wasn't perfect and some of the things that happened during her office were not helpful and should have been thought through further (introducing the poll tax in Scotland first for instance). I can see why people who were directly affected by her policies do not like her but the ridiculous claims that she was elitist really annoy me as do the posters who say she did nothing for women. Why should she? Are we some sort of pathetic inferior beings who need to be helped at every turn?

Dominodonkey Fri 12-Apr-13 01:17:39

And one other point on the evils of privatisation. When British Gas was privatised people of all walks of life were encouraged to buy shares. People like my parents who had grown up in East End slums had shares in a company (something they would have never dreamed of if Thatcher had not made it possible). Nationalised industries had cost the taxpayers millions and had never made a profit.

applecrumbleandcream Fri 12-Apr-13 01:18:18

Pip just because someone dies doesn't change your feelings towards that person. hmm hmm

ComposHat Belgium Fri 12-Apr-13 01:27:06

And grave dancing over anyone IMO is in bad taste no matter who they are

Dammit I'd been practising my soft shoe shuffle since Monday.

cantspel Fri 12-Apr-13 03:03:51

why do people want to blame MT for the decline of mining in the uk?

For any one who is interested and still has an open mind on the issue her is a list of the welsh mine closures and the date of closure

Pre Maggie

North Rhondda No 2 1947
Blaenclydach 1947
Erskine 1947
Llanmarch 1947
Penrhys 1947
Charmborough 1947
Cynon 1947
Llanerch 1947
Rhiw Colbren No 5 1947
Cwmneol 1948
Glanaman 1948
Broadoak 1948
Hook 1948
West Blaina 1948
New Gellihir 1948
Pwllgwaun 1948
Nantewlaeth 1948
Islwyn 1948
Blaendare 1949
Cwm Cynon 1949
Tareni 1949
Eryl Bryn 1949
Wern Fawr 1949
Werfa Dare 1949
Glynogwr 1949
Coalpit Heath 1949
Pontyberem 1949
Brithdir 1949
Camerton 1950
Rhiw Colbren No 2 1950
Cilely 1950
Talclyn 1952
Anthony (merged with Naval) 1952
Bertie (merged with Lewis Merthyr) 1952
Nebe (merged with Gelli) 1952
Pandy (merged with Naval) 1952
Trane (merged with Britannic) 1952
Trefor (merged with Lewis Merthyr) 1952
Garngoch No 1 1952
Pwll 1953
Kay?s Slope (see Garn and Kay?s Slope) 1953
Oaklands 1953
Rhas 1953
Pidwellt 1953
Bromley (see Pensford & Bromley) 1954
Radstock 1954
Rock Vein (merged with Nine Mile Point) 1954
Trimsaran 1954
Brynteg 1954
Dare (merged with Park) 1955
Lucy Thomas 1955
Mynydd Newydd 1955
Brynhenllys 1955
Mynydd Maen 1955
Ynisarwed 1955
Bedlinog 1956
Braysdown (merged with Writhlington) 1956
Crynant 1956
Pengam 1956
Deakin's Red Ash Level 1956
Saron 1956
Deakin's Slope 1957
Bwllfa (merged with Mardy) 1957
Rock (Mon) 1957
Ystalyfera 1957
Gellyceidrim 1957
Vivian (merged with Six Bells) 1958
Naval 1958
Glenhafod 1958
Liandebie 1958
Pensford & Bromley 1958
Tirherbert 1958
Aberbaiden 1959
Cwmllynfell 1959
Eastern United 1959
Mount 1959
Pentre 1959
Steer 1959
Ty Trist 1959
Tydraw 1959
Ferndale No 5 1959
Glyntillery (merged with Hafodyrynys) 1959
Tirpentwys (merged with Hafodyrynys) 1959
Garth Merthyr 1959
Glengarw 1959
Arthur & Edward 1959
Britannic 1960
Carway 1960
North Rhondda 1960
Cannop 1960
Tylerstown No 9 1960
Hendy Merthyr 1960
Big Pit (merged with Blaenavon) 1960
Cwmtillery (merged with Abertillery) 1960
Garn & Kays Slope (merged with Blaenavon) 1960
Lewis Merthyr(merged with Tymawr) 1960
Rose Heyworth (merged with Abertillery) 1960
Clydach Merthyr 1961
Graig Fawr 1961
Rock (Glam) 1961
Llanbradach 1961
Gelli 1962
Onllwyn No 3 1962
Princess Royal 1962
Great Mountain Nos 1 & 2 1962
New Cross Hands 1962
Blaenhirwaun 1962
Lianharan 1962
East 1962
Aberaman 1962
New Rockwood. 1963
Seven Sisters 1963
Bryn 1963
Harry Stoke 1963
Cwmgrach 1963
Ffaldydre 1963
Waunllwyd (merged with Marine) 1963
Onllwyn No 1 1964
Western (see Wyndham/Western) 1964
Cwmgorse 1964
Garth Tonmawr 1964
Nine Mile Point 1964
Pochin 1964
Wern Tarw 1964
Daren 1964
Varteg 1964
Norchard Drift 1965
Rhigos 1965
Glyncastle 1965
Fforchaman 1965
Wernos 1965
Aberbeeg South 1965
Felinfran 1965
Northern United 1965
Pwllbach 1966
Garngoch No 3 1966
Norton Hill 1966
Park (Glam) 1966
Fernhill (see Tower/Fernhill) 1966
Dillwyn 1966
Old Mills 1966
Risca 1966
Albion 1966
Cambrian 1966
Glenrhondda 1966
Duffryn Rhondda 1966
Abercrave 1967
Elliot 1967
Pentreclwydau 1967
Abergorki 1967
Crumlin 1967
International (Maesteg) 1967
Newlands 1968
Wyllie 1968
Yniscedwyn 1968
Cefn Coed 1968
Lindsay (Carmarthen) (merged with Cwmgwili) 1968
New Rock 1968
Cwmcarn 1968
Groesfaen 1968
National 1968
Writhlington (merged with Kilmersdon) 1968
Pantyffynnon 1969
Penllwyngwent 1969
Llanhilleth 1969
Avon 1969
Mountain 1969
Tirpentwys 1969
Waterloo (Mon) 1970
Glyncorrwg 1970
Coed Cae 1973
Kilmersdon 1973
Pentremawr (merged with Cynheidre) 1974
Abercynon (merged with Lady Windsor) 1975
Ffaldau (merged with Garw) 1975
Ogilvie 1975
Windsor (merged with Nantgarw) 1975
Bey 1975
Glyntillery 1975
Hafodyrynys (inc Glyntillery) 1975
Ammanford 1976
Bargoed 1977
Coedely (merged with Cwm) 1977
Morlais (merged with Brynlliw) 1977
Caerau 1977
Graig Merthyr 1978

Maggie and beyond

Deep Duffryn 1979
Blaenavon 1980
Cwmgwili (transferred to private ownership) 1980 (I thought it was a bit later - 1982)
Coegnant 1981
Tymawr (inc Lewis Merthyr) 1983
Blaengwrach 1983
Bryniliw (was Brynlliw / Morlais) 1983
Britannia 1983
Wyndham / Western 1984
Celynen North (merged with Oakdale) 1985
Bedwas 1985
Blaenserchan (merged with Six Bells) 1985
Celynen South 1985
Treforgan 1985
Aberpergwm (as a BCC mine) 1985 (still operating under private ownership)
Penrikyber 1985
Abertillery 1985
St. John?s (Glam) 1985
Garw 1985
Cwm 1986
Nantgarw (was Nantgarw/Windsor) 1986
Six Bells (already merged with Marine) 1987
Abernant 1988
Lady Windsor/Abercynon 1988
Cynheidre (was Cynheidre/Pentremawr) 1989
Merthyr Vale 1989
Oakdale 1989
Trelewis 1989
Blaenant 1990
Deep Navigation 1991
Marine 1989
Penallta 1991
Taff Merthyr 1992
Betws 2003 (under private ownership)

Of which labour was in power from 1964 to 1970 and then again 1974 to 1979 so even if you dont want to accept that Scargil has to shoulder his fair share for the demise of the mines why do Harold Wilson and James Callaghan not get any blame?

Lueji Fri 12-Apr-13 04:19:09

That is a problem with mines. They tend to run dry (or not profitable enough) after a while.

Damash12 Fri 12-Apr-13 08:04:11

I don't think mrs T actually murdered thousands of people and yes YABVU. I think it's disgusting how people can actually be happy about the death of an elderly lady and for what it's worth I'd love to see the state of this country had she never been around. Might be alot less celebrating right now but even so openly gloating is bloody cruel and not a very nice trait to have.

ObiWankenYoni Fri 12-Apr-13 08:07:30

She is someones mother, grandmother

Grow up and get some respect.

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Apr-13 08:31:10

Domino I'm aware that the nationalised industries were not well run but they were not meant to make a PROFIT.IMO the profit motive taken to extremes as it is\was in the city is very much 'the unacceptable face of capitalism".

Shares go up and DOWN in value so I'm sure a lot of the new share owners like my ILS LOST money as well.

FasterStronger Fri 12-Apr-13 08:57:16

nationalised industries weren't meant to make a loss... what's the point in paying to prolong a declining industry? so more people can start their working life in a doomed industry?

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Apr-13 09:10:45

What's the point of sending industries to countries like China where the workers are paid slave wages and when they want to "get on" e.g. need a pay rise you then take them to Korea or wherever it can be run cheaper; it's a disgusting way to run industry. Purely for effing profit.

Feenie Fri 12-Apr-13 09:24:31

Just had the following shared on my Fbook feed - no doubt the writer is patting themselves smugly on the back as we speak:

Just watched Return Of The Jedi. Disgusted by the distasteful scenes at the end where everyone is celebrating the death of Emperor Palpatine. He may have been divisive, but he was strong and he made decisions and stuck to them, and I think he should get a bit of respect. He was, after all, a little old man who died, when you remove any other context whatsoever.

Have never watched Return of the Jedi (dh took me to see Star Wars for the first time when re-entered the cinemas - I fell asleep). But I suppose I get the gist of this post. Tbh, many things supposedly safe for childrem to watch don't bear closer inspection I suppose (don't get me started on Pokemon, for example grin)

Any thoughts?

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Apr-13 09:38:30

I'm sorry but I don't get the "he was a little old man when he died" and "she was a grandmother and mother to someone" .

So what? just because you've reproduced it doesn't make you a nice loving kind parent or person. I was not glad when Saville died (I'm not equating him and MT BTW) only because he needed the humiliation of a trial. But at least the abused people knew it couldn't carry on so they would be glad and who could blame them?

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 10:34:57

Oh good grief, did a teenager write that, Feenie?

Feenie Fri 12-Apr-13 11:13:56

Don't know who wrote it - an adult friend shared it.

limitedperiodonly Fri 12-Apr-13 11:23:23

I don't see what's wrong with it. I'm guessing the emperor was more extreme than Margaret Thatcher, but the point is that people don't become deserving of respect just because they get old and die.

I'm not celebrating but it doesn't bother me that other people are. It angers me that she's going to have a funeral on a huge scale but I'll put up with it because I accept that many other people respect her, even if I don't.

I wonder whether Thatcher would welcome people dwelling on her age and decrepitude rather than her achievements.

MmeThenardier Fri 12-Apr-13 11:35:05

I think its fine to be pleased someone is dead.

Dancing and celebrating is distasteful and pathetic. The only exception to this would be if the death meant the immediate end of a brutal regime/ constant fear of violence or such like. Now that would be something to celebrate.

But thats not the case. Her death changes nothing. Plus she was elected 3 times ffs.

As for holding her responsible for Pinochet's regime! Find me a PM who hasn't supported leaders that we find unacceptable. Or started an illegal war resulting in the death of more Iraqis than we can count.

niceguy2 Fri 12-Apr-13 11:54:57

Erm...Feenie. You do realise that Return of the Jedi is a sci-fi film and not real don't you?

I'm aware that the nationalised industries were not well run but they were not meant to make a PROFIT

If they are not run to make a profit then by logical conclusion someone else has to pay. That someone else was the taxpayer who already were funding them to the tune of over £1billion per year not including having to literally force UK companies to buy UK coal at another unspecified amount.

So...if mines were not supposed to make a profit then just what sort of loss is acceptable to keep miners in jobs and communities alive? According to Scargill this cost was 'limitless'. Sorry but that logic is perverse to say the least.

Feenie Fri 12-Apr-13 12:14:49

Yes, I do, niceguy!

FasterStronger Fri 12-Apr-13 12:31:43

The emperor had had the deathstar built, destroyed at least one planet. And was still in power when killed.

Not quite the same as sending troops to the Falklands and dying 20 years out of power...

Fargo86 Fri 12-Apr-13 12:35:27

Maybe they should be celebrating the deaths of people that voted for her.

I don't recall conservatives celebrating the death of any former Labour PMs. Or anyone else for that matter.

MrRected Fri 12-Apr-13 12:40:14

I am surprised that the op surprised me. OP?

limitedperiodonly Fri 12-Apr-13 12:44:00

I've heard that Saudi Arabia was on the phone to BAE just the other week about a Deathstar...

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Apr-13 13:32:12

niceguy The profits (if there are any) should be reinvested in the company. Of course mines 'dry up' and people can and should be retrained but the closing down and managing of the strike was done in a very unpleasant way hence the bitterness, there are right and wrong ways to go about things.

Lueji Fri 12-Apr-13 13:34:57

FGS, they were celebrating the destruction of the Death Star and potentially the end of the Empire (as per the Emperor being out of the way, along with Darth Vader), not specifically their deaths.
<shakes head>

ComposHat Belgium Fri 12-Apr-13 14:14:24

cantspel A bit misleading the run down of pit closures. If you look at the pre-Thatcher closures they were small pits employing a few hundred which were closed because they were worked out. Those employed at the closing pits found employment in the super pits that were opening up and they employed thousands.

Thatcher closed large mines with years of coal reserves left and many of them were profitable. Then did nothing to aid whole communities that were left to die. Whilst it was foolish yo argue tjat the industry didn't need reform/rationalisation, Thatcher visited genocide upon it for political reasons.

LoopaDaLoopa Fri 12-Apr-13 14:17:29

Eh MrRected?

andubelievedthat Fri 12-Apr-13 14:24:28

its fine , she was /is a total cunt, she will march into hell and 1st thing, close 2 of the 3 furnaces, long live m.thatcher ,saviour of britain,excuse me while i weep.

abbyfromoz Fri 12-Apr-13 14:28:49

Get a grip OP. YABVU.

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 14:31:28

I'm now starting to think though- would it be unreasonable if you were glad someone who made your life a living hell died? Because that's what she did to some people

LoopaDaLoopa Fri 12-Apr-13 14:36:54

"Get a grip"

What a thought-provoking and inspired post. smile

abbyfromoz Fri 12-Apr-13 14:41:17

Lol... And your rhetoric has me equally inspired...

niceguy2 Fri 12-Apr-13 14:55:46

niceguy The profits (if there are any) should be reinvested in the company. Of course mines 'dry up' and people can and should be retrained but the closing down and managing of the strike was done in a very unpleasant way hence the bitterness, there are right and wrong ways to go about things.

OK, think you need to make your mind up. Either they need to be run for a profit in which case they should make a profit. Only then can they reinvest it.

In reality mines were not making any profits and as you said earlier you didn't think that mattered. In fact they were losing money hand over fist.

With regards to your second point yes we both accept that mines dry up that is logical. But and here is where we differ on our opinions.

Had Scargill not taken the miners out on strike then the closing down of the mines would have been done in an orderly fashion with miners getting proper severance and access to full benefits from the state for being unemployed.

BUT he did take them on strike. And by doing so they couldn't get access to any benefits and of course they don't get paid whilst on strike.

So it comes down to this.

A) Do we subsidise a loss making mine "without limit" as Scargill wanted? Taken to it's logical conclusion we'd still be employing miners after the coal mine has no coal left? (after all he wanted limitless support)


B) Close the mines in an orderly fashion and help the miners best we can to find new jobs.

Personally I vote B but you can't do that if they are on strike asking for A)

ppeatfruit Fri 12-Apr-13 15:05:02

Composthat mentioned that the mines were not worked out.. But as I mentioned before there's no way ANYONE can compete with mines and ship builders in China or wherever the workforce is paid slave wages. The whole ethos of that type of globalisation stinks IMO, it s probably not just down to MT but I don't think the world is left better greener place with it. The opposite in fact. Okay enough already I've got work to do grin

niceguy2 Fri 12-Apr-13 15:28:31

the mines may not have been worked out but they were as an industry very uncompetitive. Can't find the link but basically it cost £44 to mine a tonne of UK coal and you could buy it in from outside the UK for about half. Something like that. I forget the exact figures but you get my point.

The whole slave labour in China is besides the point. You cannot compare the wage rates and then say because they pay a lot less, therefore they are paid slave labour. The whole country lives differently and you could (in the past) live very comfortably off some of the lower salaries. Now it's different and their success and globalisation has brought their salaries up a lot.

unlucky83 Fri 12-Apr-13 15:59:57

Not read whole thread ..
I can remember before Thatcher and how bad things were...(eg power cuts, rubbish in the street, 3 weeks to get our phone fixed when it broke...)
She didn't ruin our industry - the unions did that ...
(As to mines - my uncle was a miner until the 1960s - when the mines were already closing down - he became a lorry driver...)
I think she did what needed to be done ... and she showed absolute conviction, she really believed she was doing the right thing for Britain - not like recent politicians - I have as much respect for left wing politicians like Tony Benn for the same reasons...
Also as for the banks etc causing the recent problems - no that was the previous labour government - encouraging spending on credit ...(she said cut your coat according to your cloth)...
Also to get where she did as a women at that time she had to be tough...less than 50 years before she became an MP women hadn't been allowed to show their ankles, didn't have the right to vote ... and we are still fighting against that now - you can't change the world overnight can legislate as much as you like but you have to change attitudes and that takes time/generations...
But I am not upset by the parties - I really believe that these people (most of whom weren't even born when she was in power!) just don't understand and therefore SHE wouldn't really fact think they looked a bit stupid...
As to feeling pleasure when somebody dies ...I had a neighbour from hell for 10+ years ...long story, he used to harass me, the police were involved, he made me life a misery - I used to be frightened of him ... before I realised he was a bully. I would shake after he had a go at me and tried to avoid him eg I was too nervous to hang the washing out in my garden/clean my windows/put rubbish in the bins ... if he was in ...
He dropped dead suddenly almost a year ago - when I found out my first reaction was shock then sadness and to wish we could have solved our differences etc ...
Only after a few months when I realised just how much impact he had on me ( eg when I was 10 mins from home with lots of shopping and I was wondering if he was in and if I could leave unloading the car until he was out -before I remembered he had gone!) did I start to feel relief if anything ...but still didn't want to celebrate in the street!

Xenia Fri 12-Apr-13 16:06:25

No one with miners in the family really wanted their children go to down the mines. It was not some wonderful happy hey day. It was a terrible living.

Lady Thatcher transformed this nation for the better and inspired a generation of people who remember the awful 1970s when the UK was the sick man of Europe. She was wonderful.

Those who feel she should be compared to war criminals only illustrate how it tends to be deluded and those with a low IQ who cannot see her greatness and obviously we shall pray for them.

unlucky83 Fri 12-Apr-13 16:13:10

I will say my grandparent's didn't want my uncle to be a miner ...they wanted him to become an apprentice joiner ...but he wanted to go down the mines (1950s) because he would earn almost three times as much than as an apprentice...

Xenia, I just spat out my coffee with your last statement, its hilarious.

Those who feel she should be compared to war criminals only illustrate how it tends to be deluded and those with a low IQ who cannot see her greatness and obviously we shall pray for them

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 16:23:08

Xenia she was a heartless bitch how did she 'transform the nation for the better'
My main problem is that she declared war on travellers causing police to smash up our homes and piss all over our toys etc. It was a terrible fucking time and was her fault

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 16:36:53

And now we seem to be going that way again it really is shit

niceguy2 Fri 12-Apr-13 16:59:33

how did she 'transform the nation for the better'

There are lots of things she did which changed the nation for the better. But too many people can't focus on the bigger picture and can only look at certain instances. In your case the travellers.

But if you look at it from a country perspective she stopped the unions from running the country, stopped our economic decline, we balanced our national budget and millions were better off as a result. By any measure you care to look at, our economy was far stronger in 1990 than 1979.

That is what you need to look at. Of course any prime minister will need to make unpopular decisions that will negatively affect people's lives. Mrs Thatcher had to make more than her fair share because of the complete mess the country was in in 1979.

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 17:05:06

The case is brilliant because it reveals problems with the benefits system.
Xenia's comment on the Philpott case.
Let's discuss your I.Q now shall we Xenia.

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 17:19:55

Niceguy2 I think ruining peoples lives adds up to more than just an unpopular decision

unlucky83 Fri 12-Apr-13 17:33:39

MsBella - your whole life ruined? or at least the last 20 years of your life?
If that was me I would be more concerned about myself - asking myself some serious questions like ...what could I have done to make my life better? it too late to make changes?...

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 17:45:36

Unlucky, our homes were fucking smashed up leaving people with no home, all kids toys pissed all over, whole way of life fucked up. For gods sake... also I didn't say whole life forever...

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 17:45:53

Are the bankers really nice guys after all or am I in a parallel universe????

When Maggie Thatcher got in I was missing school on a regular basis as the power was supplied on a timetable eg one town gets it on a Tuesday, but not on a wednesday, the next town gets it fri but not sat. I mean, I was doing my highers, can you imagine if kids doing their A levels were just told, sorry, no school on Wednesdays or Fridays for the next month. Britain was like Greece, but the sad thing was it was on its own, no global recession to blame.

But 20 somethings are marching in the streets because she was so cruel???? Like I say, a parallel universe.

I did a social science course a few years ago and a major part was the effects of job-loss in individuals, lack of money, lack of status, destruction of community. And the example was a yorkshire mining village. But, of course, being the OU and v left wing, no mention as to WHY the jobs had to go etc (it was cheap better quality Polish coal, by the way, my DM used to insist on it, it was better and cheaper than british stuff).

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 17:46:33

She wouldn't let people continue with their way of life, she declared war on a whole group of human beings

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 17:49:36

she was a heartless bitch how did she 'transform the nation for the better

She was voted in 3 times - so you are saying that the majority of the british population are what? idiots? misguided? we wanted her as PM!

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 17:51:13

Grinkly, she wrecked peoples lives, fact.
And its not the majority, unfortunately a lot of the people who don't vote are the ones who were affected the worst by her

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 17:51:39

No we didn't and the majority did not vote for her but against her. Just the way our system works.

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 17:57:09

What wrecked people's lives was losing their jobs and not having anything to replace it with, which is what happens alot today, eg machines and automation of factories replacing people. Who's to blame now??

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 18:02:55

Grinkly my main problem is that she declared war on travellers causing the police to come and smash up our homes and piss all over kids toys, abuse everyone and make people lose their homes etc. A very heartless woman who literally and in her own words declared way on a whole group of human beings, the effects still being seen today in the cases I'm talking about

This is overlooked a lot but still as disgusting and sick as ever

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 18:04:03

Also she obviously hated poor people, selling council houses off too cheap etc.

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 18:06:52

Sorry, MsBella, don't remember this.

Obviously I remember how I was affected, eg shortage of food, missing school (which I was quite happy about but probably seriously affected my results), dead people being unburied.

I suspect most on these threads are angry because of the story rather than the facts.

FasterStronger Fri 12-Apr-13 18:09:05

Was selling council houses to their inhabitants a sign of her hating poor people?

banging on about Thatcher is just bandwagonism. It will change nothing.

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 18:09:07

But the poor people could own their own homes!! Why is that bad for them? I remember neighbours getting their coundil house at less than half what we paid for a similar 3 bed semi because they had lived in it for 7 years ?? Huh.

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 18:10:27

Poor people couldn't afford to buy them. People with money could and it took away council homes from people who need housing

Fargo86 Fri 12-Apr-13 18:16:49

People will never agree. I think she was the greatest PM this country has ever had, but some people think she was the devil incarnate.

Grinkly Fri 12-Apr-13 18:21:46

Msbella, ime only people who lived in council houses could buy them (mind you I have recently heard of family moving in on elderly council tenants so they can take it on after death of elderly person).

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 18:23:27

Not everyone in a council house is poor, the poor ones couldn't afford it and the ones who could afford it shouldn't really have bought them because it takes a council house away from someone who needs one

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 18:24:12

not long ago someone won the lottery and bought their council house, a homeless family on the waiting list could have had it if he didn't buy it

unlucky83 Fri 12-Apr-13 18:56:27

MS Bella you are obviously still angry ...but Margaret Thatcher did not piss on your toys...the police who evicted you did....I'm assuming you were a child when this happened...
Did they not give you notice that you were being evicted? I don't know a lot about what happened with travellers -but seem to remember something about travellers being on land and the land owner not being happy with it...a bit like I wouldn't be happy if someone pitched a tent in my back garden...
We have a travellers site near me ...they seem to be doing all right - most of the buildings look attractive - chalet-like with garden walls ...local people are a bit upset because the site is on agricultural land and it keeps expanding rapidly one else would be allowed to build there ...but then again - the land owner is happy (but rumour is because when they move on the land will be considered residential not agricultural and he can build on it... which may or may not be right)
And people buying council houses ...they had to be living in them for a number of years before they could buy them...they weren't just up for grabs for anyone with money...and you couldn't just get a council house - they were scarce even then...and even now you can't force someone to move out of a council house - they are a home for life...if they couldn't buy them they could just stay living in them paying a nominal rent...any way I think you can't buy them anymore...
I think she was misunderstood in lots of ways - her view was if the rich make money (and pay taxes in this country and buy things made in this country) ...the poor will also get richer ...everyone could gain...
It was not under her leadership that the divide between the rich and poor in this country widened...the politicians who allowed that to happen are the ones that people should have issue with

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 19:20:22

Nope unlucky there wasn't any of that
And she personally declared war on travellers making it directly her fault

grovel Fri 12-Apr-13 19:47:48

MsBella, what nonsense. What legislation did she pass against travellers? Unless you mean the Public Order Act? Yep, she didn't think Stone Henge was suitable for "traveller development" because it was a national monument.

grovel Fri 12-Apr-13 19:52:56

MsBella, what nonsense. What legislation did she pass against travellers? Unless you mean the Public Order Act? Yep, she didn't think Stone Henge was suitable for "traveller development" because it was a national monument.

grovel Fri 12-Apr-13 19:55:52

MsBella, tell us exactly what she did against travellers (as opposed to what local councils may or may not have done).

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 20:04:05

She declared war on them which is widely known actually. And stonehenge is what I'm talking about yep, our homes smashed up and lives ruined, there were never any problems before she declared war on travellers

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 20:09:40

I think a number of people are being unnecessarily rude to MsBella.
The Public Order act whilst replacing the Common Offences act, had a number of parts added by Douglas Hurd which were very detrimental to travelling communities.

As a child, we would picnic regularly at Stonehenge. It wasn't fenced off at all. Just saying.

Xenia Fri 12-Apr-13 20:11:14

It was the poor from backgrounds not too different from hers whom she helped. She gave them life chances rarely had before. If they had lived in a council house for decades for the first time they could get on to the property ladder. She gave them hope and they moved from a rootless renting class to having some capital and equity. They could buy them for very very low sums. It helped rather than damaged the poor.

She had been a lawyer. She believed in the rule of law which is something most British people support. If travellers do not obey the law then they should be evicted. There cannot be one rule for them and another for the rest of us.

She represented opportunities and she gave them to all. She was a breath of fresh air. She came from relative humble home compared say to people like Blair and the Mllibands who came from a life of privilege. She broke the mould and showed that hard work can get people on particularly women. She had so many admirers she was voted in again and again.

We need her like again.

BegoniaBampot Fri 12-Apr-13 20:16:29

MsBella is right that she declared war and was ruthless to certain areas. that is what people can't forgive or forget. do you think it is just coincidence that the areas that suffered the most were those that didn't vote for her. She was vindictive and happy to sacrifice those that didn't vote for her for those who did. I know she was great for many, mostly those who didn't have their jobs and communities suffer the way others did. I moved to the south in the 90's and the amount of jobs and wealth was staggering, people had no clue what it was like in areas where industry had been decimated.

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 20:32:40

Her background was not poor. FFS! Boring stolidly lower middle class. Definitely not by any stretch poor.

limitedperiodonly Fri 12-Apr-13 20:42:23

Lots of people, rich and poor, live in rented accommodation today.

Lots of people say renting is dead money, so shall we force private landlords to sell at a discount to their tenants?

BegoniaBampot Fri 12-Apr-13 20:43:23

yes, have to laugh at her 'humble' beginnings.

Takingbackmonday Fri 12-Apr-13 20:52:57

This soon you're being a twat HTH

I'm NOT a Tory but I've been doing the rounds on national media chatting about Thatcher and always been respectful and mentioned

1) she saved uk economy

2) labour's Harold Wilson shut down 3 x as many mines

LessMissAbs Fri 12-Apr-13 20:53:31

Have just seen on tv a man of 60 ish saying his life was ruined when the steel factory he worked in was closed during Mrs Thatcher's Government cuts, as he has never worked since, and "she ruined his life".

Can anyone explain to me why a man in his early thirties could not have got a job at some point in the intervening three decades? From what I've read in the media, he is hardly the only one. I know quite a few people who have been made redundant in the last few years, and they have all eventually managed to find new jobs, although they found it hard.

Takingbackmonday Fri 12-Apr-13 20:54:23

MsBella - perhaps they should've voted then

Takingbackmonday Fri 12-Apr-13 20:55:10

I'm with you lessmiss

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 20:55:58

Takingbackmonday... most travellers aren't on the electoral roll. And are you implying that just because they didn't vote they deserve their homes smashed up and lives ruined??! and even if they did vote it doesn't guarentee anything... what a ridiculous and cold hearted thing to say

Dawndonna Fri 12-Apr-13 20:56:05

Good for you, Takingback
She didn't save the economy.
Wilson shut down different types of mines.
FFS, If you're out and about yapping on public media, try and get it right.

Takingbackmonday Fri 12-Apr-13 20:58:44

She stopped subsidising unproductive parts of the economy. In 1984 she offered £800million investment into mining, alternative jobs or a voluntary redundancy package. Scargill, who still claimed to be a communist supporting the USSR in 2000 refused.

I'm from a mining family. My father was pragmatic, retrained.

Takingbackmonday Fri 12-Apr-13 20:59:30

And he's Donna she did save economy.

Manufacturing went up 7.5% under thatcher. I continued to rise 4.9% until 1997 when labour took over.


Takingbackmonday Fri 12-Apr-13 20:59:48

Yes* (iPad)

Takingbackmonday Fri 12-Apr-13 21:01:06

Sorry msbella didn't see the traveller reference. However if you choose to live outside the law well you have no influence on it.

MsBella Fri 12-Apr-13 21:04:07

Oops forgot I said anything else,
Hmm I don't agree at all what a thing to think

VerySmallSqueak Fri 12-Apr-13 21:05:11

Really I think some people should remember what happened to the travellers in the 80's.
It wasn't just about protecting Stonehenge as a monument - it was about stopping a certain lifestyle.
MT said she was 'only too delighted to do anything we can to make life difficult for such things as hippy convoys'.
At the Beanfield travellers were beaten brutally by the police.In their midst were women who were pregnant or with babies.Their homes were totally trashed in many cases.

It was an absolute disgrace.

ReturnOfEmeraldGreen Fri 12-Apr-13 21:11:14

Jesus H. Christ, how I hated that woman. Haven't they buried her yet?

LessMissAbs Fri 12-Apr-13 21:11:34

I do think the feel-hard-done-by whingers get over-represented in the media. As I use the brand new sports facilities in my ex mining area, navigating around the new housing developments where nothing is built costing less than £400,000, usually more than £550,000, and remember how my grandfather got out of the mining industry asap and long before the pit closures, as did anyone with a bit of drive and motivation about them, I wonder who is driving the hard-done-by act other than politicians who want to get into power...because its certainly not reality.

unlucky83 Fri 12-Apr-13 21:12:42

As I said - don't really remember what happened to travellers - they really had no notice to quit? Locally at least - the travellers seem to be doing fine now ...
Also not meaning to be rude to or pick on MsBella...just wound up by Mrs Thatcher 'ruined peoples lives' - people might not have liked her but if they haven't moved on in all this time they are more victims of BLairs nanny state than Thatcher - sitting waiting for someone to help them instead of helping themselves...
FGS she left power 20 years+ ago and we have have had a labour government for 13 years since ..who changed their name to New Labour to distance themselves from the Labour of the 70s (and 80s), who have not overturned any of her policies ..AND they widened the gap between rich and poor
She was without doubt a conviction politician..I don't think vindictive I think a realist.
The Unions (and Labour party) were absolutely needed but by the 70s/80s they were dictators - not elected by the majority - you had no choice but to be part of a union - stopping miners working who wanted to was what the police horse charges were all about - the NUM/Scargill robbed ALL the miners of any chance of there being a better outcome... and other trade unions did similar damage to other industries...
Also maybe they should vote/get on the electoral roll if they live in a democracy??? Or not complain about it ...
Even if it counts for nothing ...women died (and the working class had to fight for) for the right to vote!