to think Thatcher's funeral procession will attract protesters throughout UK?

(294 Posts)
Corygal Tue 09-Apr-13 07:36:37

Strikes me they're really pushing it with a full military fanfare and procession through the streets of London - it's catnip for every pissed off Briton in the country to come and have a go.

The last people who had this amount of fuss were Queen Mum and Diana, neither of whom exactly attracted violent dissent. But a parade through virtually every main thoroughfare of the capital for Mrs Thatcher...

Sirzy Tue 09-Apr-13 07:38:38

The police will have Their work cut out for them that day that's for sure!

I just hope people can have the respect to stay away from her funeral if they didn't like her, or at least not cause trouble. Whatever your views of her her family are grieving.

ParadiseChick Tue 09-Apr-13 07:42:30

Respect? Ha!

Sugarice Tue 09-Apr-13 07:43:25

Imagine the ring of steel around this day security wise.

Regardless of peoples opinions of her a funeral is a funeral and should be respected as such.

Who the hell would willingly travel determined to disrupt such a thing?

doublecakeplease Tue 09-Apr-13 07:46:04

I can see the London riots repeating - probably populated mainly by people who have no true understanding of what went on. I'm northern and there's a LOT of bad feeling / people glad she's dead etc but tbh i was very young when she was in power and wasn't directly affected that i can remember. She's not mourned in my family but her death certainly isn't being celebrated.
Her funeral needs to be handled carefully and i hope that people maintain their dignity and cam express their feelings without distracting themselves or their communities

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 07:47:13

Imagine the associated costs. Funny how money can always be found for some things and not others.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 07:49:21

Just to clarify: I think some people will feel very angry when they see how much money is spent glorifying this most divisive of former prime ministers at a time when the country is supposedly broke.

meditrina Tue 09-Apr-13 07:49:38

Unfortuntely, it is likely.

A "working funeral" is of course an opportunity for much progress on international affairs (outside set piece meetings), so it will go ahead despite security costs.

It is a pity that funerals become occasions of protest - it seems to be on the increase, and I think it displays poor judgement.

doublecakeplease Tue 09-Apr-13 07:49:56

*disgracing

RedHelenB Tue 09-Apr-13 07:58:11

I think as it is a state affair at taxpayers expense then there may well be protests. If it were a private funeral I can't see protesters turning up.

ChairmanWow Tue 09-Apr-13 08:10:59

£8m of taxpayers money being squandered. I won't be protesting but I understand anyone who does (in a non- violent way of course).

Branleuse Tue 09-Apr-13 08:13:23

I imagine it will cause riots

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 08:18:46

Everyone talks of riots but it'll never happen. It's just the chattering classes talking shit from behind their laptops in their leafy suburbs. I'll be working there that day and I would love to see some crusty jugglers try it on!

Twentytotwo Tue 09-Apr-13 08:19:51

I don't understand why they're doing this.

WishingIwasnt Tue 09-Apr-13 08:25:19

If her haters can't respect her, I hope they at least have the dignity and common decency to respect her family and therefore stay away from her funeral. I find it sickening that so many people are 'celebrating' over the death of a frail elderly lady - no matter what she may have done twenty-odd years ago!

ifancyashandy Tue 09-Apr-13 08:33:36

If it were a private affair, I would respect the grieving family. By spending public money on this the government have negated that right. I am furious £8million is reportedly being spent.

We are clearly not all in this together. The Tories always were and always continue to be uncaring, arrogant and sneering.

Nancy66 Tue 09-Apr-13 08:35:14

there will be a few pissed up students who, six months ago, probably had no idea who MT was....that'll be it.

NynaevesSister Tue 09-Apr-13 08:36:35

Respect her when she showed no respect for us? There is no such thing as society remember. I don't think she showed respect for young lads who jumped off Tyne bridges because she devastates whole communities and left them bereft of all hope?

There well be protests. Spending my hard earned tax money on this shambles deserves no less. They will not be violent unless forced. The police charges the miners remember. There would have been no violence then without Maggie Thatcher. Don't blame the people who are angry. The have good reasons to be angry.

MandragoraWurzelstock Tue 09-Apr-13 08:45:12

I think there ought to be some respect for the folks who can't afford to feed their families at present, and her funeral ought to be like any other funeral, not some circus with thousands of pounds spent on security.

What a waste.

MandragoraWurzelstock Tue 09-Apr-13 08:46:42

Stay away? How can they when she is going to be paraded through a large part of London? It's quite hard to keep out of the way I imagine. Surely that is the whole point.

It's a bit in the faces of those who found her government anything but kind

ajandjjmum Tue 09-Apr-13 08:47:41

Some people will use any excuse - we've seen that before.

I happen to think Margaret Thatcher did more good than bad, but there seems to be a large section of people who fail to understand the situation the country was in before she was elected - either that, or that can't be bothered to try and understand, and make judgements accordingly.

The miners throwing concrete blocks off bridges, people not being able to earn a living wage because they were forever being called out on strike - whether they agreed or not. Never mind, at least Arthur Scargill has still got his union funded London flat, so he can lead from comfort.

There are two sides to the argument, but a person has died, and decent people will respect that.

MandragoraWurzelstock Tue 09-Apr-13 08:47:43

8 million? Seriously that is sickening.

FunnyLittleFrog Tue 09-Apr-13 08:49:02

She didn't give a damn about frail elderly ladies when she was PM. She didn't give a damn about anyone. What she did '20-odd years ago' was rip the heart out of this country and for that she cannot be forgiven.

I would not advocate riots or protests on the day itself but think there needs to be a public display of disgust that £8 million is being spent on a ceremonial funeral. It is an absolute disgrace.

MandragoraWurzelstock Tue 09-Apr-13 08:49:19

Yes I am a decent person and I respect that someone has died.

What I don't think is right is that a fortune is spent on a massive funeral for someone largely unpopular when there are people in dire poverty in this country.

sashh Tue 09-Apr-13 08:56:46

The miners throwing concrete blocks off bridges, people not being able to earn a living wage because they were forever being called out on strike - whether they agreed or not. Never mind, at least Arthur Scargill has still got his union funded London flat, so he can lead from comfort.

That all happened after she was elected.

During the time she was prime minister it was common for old people to die of hypothermia, she didn't care about them.

I think someone knows how hated she is by quite a number of people, that's why she is being cremated, not buried next to Denis Thatcher as she wanted.

EnidRollins Tue 09-Apr-13 09:01:34

Anybody who would travel to disrupt a funeral is sick in the head themselves.
(This coming from someone who lives around mining towns and has all my life.)
Vile.

Smudging Tue 09-Apr-13 09:05:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

diaimchlo Tue 09-Apr-13 09:08:45

What Smudging said.

DialsMavis Tue 09-Apr-13 09:21:51

Maybe they want some more big riots, so that they can further demonise the working classes. Or maybe it's just a big "fuck you, we can and always will be able to do just as we like" from those in charge.

ChocsAwayInMyGob Tue 09-Apr-13 09:23:09

Agree with smudging. Her family should have a private funeral and be allowed to grieve in peace.

I couldn't stand the woman and hated her policies, but would never disrupt a funeral.

However, it does stick in my throat that the Govt would spend £8 million on the funeral of a woman who brought so many onto their knees with poverty. At best it's bad PR, at worst it's rubbing people's faces in it and inviting discord.

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 09:25:57

I really, really hope it is a big fuck you from this government to the whining left and champagne socialists.

ChocsAwayInMyGob Tue 09-Apr-13 09:29:54

Maggysinge. Charming.

Not everyone who was affected or upset by her policies was "whining left" or "champagne socialists".

She was massively divisive and unpopular, even with her own cabinet towards the end. A huge public funeral is a bad idea and tempts yet more controversy.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 09:30:19

A complete disgrace to waste all that money when so much of today's poverty is a direct result of her free market policies

or, the greedy bankers of today who the current government wont rein in.

There is a lot that could have been done by leaders after Maggie, they have chose not to.

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 09:33:52

But what are you lot going to do though? Absolutely nothing but whinge and moan on here with the rest of the whingeing left. She split public opinion but she did what was right for this great country and saved it from completely going under and for that she is a great woman and seeing how the left is reacting just proves that point.

ChocsAwayInMyGob Tue 09-Apr-13 09:33:57

HoHoHo- like what?

Don't blame successive governments for her mistakes. it's very hard and takes a long time to reinstate policies that have been disposed of by a previous government.

If all governments spent four years undoing what previous governments have done, they wouldn't have time to run the country.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 09:34:30

Anyone who takes to the streets rioting is no better than EDL type scum.

If people need to protest then do it peacefully.

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 09:35:22

And this is exactly what the Tories have to put up with every time labour have fucked up!

ajandjjmum Tue 09-Apr-13 09:35:36

I find it incredible that so many years after she left government, some people are still blaming her for everything that has gone wrong in their lives.

If her decisions were so awful, why did subsequent governments not reverse them?

NotTreadingGrapes Tue 09-Apr-13 09:36:05

Oooh yeah. Like the erm, "hundred or so" (according to the web) who were thronging the streets last night?

<scared>

WantOurRoomBack Tue 09-Apr-13 09:38:52

The union do not pay for Arthur Scargill's flat in London.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 09:41:21

Maggysinge - your posts are making you sound a little bit excitable. Are you okay?

edam Tue 09-Apr-13 09:44:22

ajand - given everyone is busy pointing out how significant she was, and what a legacy she left, it's hardly surprising that her legacy is still pissing people off.

And now we are being lumbered with the cost of a quasi-state funeral - only one step down from a monarch's. She posed as an opponent of public spending, why should we have to fork out to celebrate her life? Her family can afford to bury her, maybe they should appoint Group 4 to look after security.

shallweshop Tue 09-Apr-13 09:46:06

I don't entirely agree with the whole funeral plan but I am sure many will use it as an excuse for a punch up!

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 09:46:41

Excitable? Like the left element on here you mean? I've never seen so much hysteria and hyperbole on one website until I came here, if anything it's your lot who get excitable no?

grovel Tue 09-Apr-13 09:47:39

The problem is that Gordon Brown decided how the funeral would be.

AvrilPoisson Tue 09-Apr-13 09:48:19

Erm, what? Protesting that she's died?
hmm

There won't be protests, the country is far too de-politicised. I mean Blair was more right wing than she was, and look how many idiots voted for him!

If they had wanted to hold a large funeral service in St Paul's I could have probably accepted it. Its the cortege through the streets etc that bothers me. Why should I pay for that? If they want to spend a couple of million I'm sure they can find people in greater need that than the Thatcher family.

The Royal family and the Middleton's paid towards William and Kate's wedding so how much are Mark and Carole going to chip in?

OFFS Middletons not Middleton's

Grocer's apostrophe in tribute to MT's origins!

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 09:51:32

I don't know Avril look what happened in City Centres a while back. Mobs rioting and looting. It only takes one idiot to start it and the rest of the village idiots tag on!

tiggytape Tue 09-Apr-13 09:52:02

At best it's bad PR, at worst it's rubbing people's faces in it and inviting discord.

As has been discussed on other threads, a state funeral wasn't her choice (she didn't want one) and isn't a Tory decision.
The Labour government proposed it and planned it.
The idea was first discussed in about 2008
Gordon Brown (with the Queen) was the one who approved the decision in 2011 with a budget agreed and details hammered out.

The fact it was a Labour decision not a Tory one however is irrelevant in the sense that disrupting any funeral is unacceptable. I am sure there will be some who try but the route will be lined with military and police and the service itself isn’t open to the public so hopefully they can make their point well away from her family and friends who are there to mourn.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 09:52:22

Where has this figure of 8 million come from. Is it correct or has it been plucked from the Daily Mail?

tiggytape Tue 09-Apr-13 09:53:29

When Labour planned this funeral - their figure was £3 million

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 09-Apr-13 09:53:55

It's completely inappropriate to spunk this kind of money in times of austerity for someone who has the level of negative feeling against them that she has.

I don't see why ANY prime minister in my lifetime needs a quasi state funeral. Or does she 'deserve' it just for being female?

greenfern Tue 09-Apr-13 09:54:17

Totally agree with Ifancy.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 09:57:18

Excitable? Like the left element on here you mean? I've never seen so much hysteria and hyperbole on one website until I came here, if anything it's your lot who get excitable no?

As I was saying...

And who exactly is "your lot"? Perhaps you might like to consider that MN is not comprised of one single homogeneous mass.

ajandjjmum Tue 09-Apr-13 09:57:22

Wantourroomback
Not now, but they did, and he took them to court to retain the priviledge.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 09:59:51

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BoneyBackJefferson Tue 09-Apr-13 10:01:09

Given the strength of feeling about Thatcher its probably the safest way to have the funeral.

edam Tue 09-Apr-13 10:05:36

No, the safest way would be to have a funeral for her friends and family with private security, in line with her beliefs and policies.

BoneyBackJefferson Tue 09-Apr-13 10:10:22

Given the strength of feeling about this do you believe that the media would let a "private" funeral happen?

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 10:27:04

edam

No, the safest way would be to have a funeral for her friends and family with private security, in line with her beliefs and policies.

She specifically stated she didn't want a state funeral or a flypast because it would be a waste of money.

YouTheCat Tue 09-Apr-13 10:40:14

What Hamster said.

I really really do not like the woman but I do think her wishes regarding her funeral should be respected. I'd read somewhere that her children won't even be attending the ceremonial funeral.

Surely a funeral is for family and friends?

Also it's a bloody waste of money.

edam Tue 09-Apr-13 11:39:19

flatpack - even more reason to stop this spectacle of a funeral at St Paul's with a military cortege, then. Drain on public funds AND against her own stated wishes, apparently.

skratta Tue 09-Apr-13 11:47:08

To be fair, it'll easily be avoided by most people (well, they're hardly going to go from Ilford to St Paul's!) but regardless, I think, as disrespectful as it would be to disrupt a funeral (what harm can the dead do?), it's also incredibly disrespectful to go against the wishes if the person (to not have a ceremonial, state funeral).

I think the government should do what she would have wanted, cheaper for us and more in line with her final wishes.

infamouspoo Tue 09-Apr-13 11:55:11

8 million? When people are choosing between heating and food? What a waste of money. I'm sure she, and the family would prefer a small private affair. Especially if thats what she requested.

Stevie77 Tue 09-Apr-13 12:26:37

The government will spend £8m on the funereal because that is protocol for the death of a former head of state. Regardless of what some people think about her, rightly or wrongly, educated or misguided, that is what is done. And just because some people disagree or hate her, doesn't mean she should not be accorded the same respect shown to all former leaders who have passed away.

Grow up!

tiggytape Tue 09-Apr-13 12:33:23

Stevie is right - The Queen will attend in person next week as she did for Churchill but no political leader since. It is nothing to do with party or politics - it is a state occasion marking the passing of a world leader. It reflects her importance, her long service and her huge role in world events. Not all PMs fall into that category so not all are afforded state honours

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 12:35:45

Stevie77
...the death of a former head of state...

I thought the Queen was 'head of state'.

And "all former leaders who have passed away" have had nothing like this amount of fanfare.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 12:38:13

flatpack
"...mentalist socialist posters who can't stop posting their marxist claptrap in AIBU. Why don't you all go over to the politics thread, Ttosca's keeping the Crazy Bench warm for you all."

Mentalist? Crazy bench? I see respect for genuine sufferers of mental health issues is not your forte then. What an offensive way of expressing yourself.

Stevie
The point is that it isn't protocol. Did Ted Heath have a ceremonial funeral, or Wilson, Callaghan maybe?

No PM since Churchill has had a state/ceremonial funeral.

This funeral is the exception not the norm.

YouTheCat Tue 09-Apr-13 12:40:15

Nope, I don't remember such a fuss over Callaghan or Eden or Macmillan or Wilson or Douglas-Home or Heath.

So why should there be for Thatcher?

YouTheCat Tue 09-Apr-13 12:41:30

Mentalist socialist and proud. grin

I am concerned that it will become a focus for trouble but I think we will get a feel for that over the next few nights.

stevie, she wasnt a head of state, prime ministers of this country are not.

tiggytape Tue 09-Apr-13 12:43:15

She was a world leader and seen as hugely significant to the course of British and world history by her supporters and opponents alike.
She was the longest serving PM of the 20th centruty.
She is known worldwide not least for her help in bringing the Cold War to an end.
She won 3 General Elections, a war and was the first and only woman PM of this country.
Many have criticised her policies in the past day - none have undermined her influence and importance on the world stage. Very few political leaders fall into that category so very few get such a funeral.

The Queen Mums funeral was estimated to cost over £4 million. That was some years ago and I suspect that the security required for this occasion will be even larger.

TheSecondComing Tue 09-Apr-13 12:46:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

boschy Tue 09-Apr-13 12:52:22

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CloudsAndTrees Tue 09-Apr-13 12:52:51

Just because a lot of people hate her, a lot of people don't. I don't see why the people who are against her should have their way over the funeral, their views are no more important than those of her supporters.

An elected government has decided the type of funeral that MT will have, and that's that.

Not a single one of us approves of absolutely everything our government chooses to spend money on, and this is no different.

Anyone who thinks a funeral is an appropriate time to protest or make some kind of political point is scum. What would they be protesting against anyway - funerals?? hmm

delboysfileofax Tue 09-Apr-13 12:54:55

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YouTheCat Tue 09-Apr-13 12:57:51

They aren't the elected government - they're a coalition. I don't believe there was a space on my ballot paper for 'coalition'.

boschy Tue 09-Apr-13 13:00:14

no delboys not really. still lacks charm I am afraid.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 09-Apr-13 13:02:35

The decision was made before the coalition came into power. By an elected government.

YouTheCat Tue 09-Apr-13 13:03:55

I don't really think it should be their decision. She had expressed a wish for a private funeral.

tiggytape Tue 09-Apr-13 13:04:18

The funeral plans were proposed under Labour and signed off by Gordon Brown i.e. the elected goverment of the day.
The plans have been in place since 2008 and were finalised in 2011.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 13:04:50

I think what they would be protesting against, Clouds, is not funerals hmm, but public funds being spent on unnecessarily lavish arrangements when the country is apparently on its uppers.

Perhaps Thatcher's supporters could be invited to contribute to a funeral fund. I think that might make everyone happy. I'd have no objection to her having a big send-off if it wasn't coming out of the public purse.

delboysfileofax Tue 09-Apr-13 13:05:06

Good.

Clouds, I imagine they would be protesting the millions of pounds of tax payers money being spent on it, especially as the country is oh so very skint as we are told every 5 minutes

YouTheCat Tue 09-Apr-13 13:06:00

I like Ken Loach's idea.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 13:06:26

Whoever 'signed off' the arrangements is largely irrelevant. Our economy is buggered and we are constantly being told we can't afford various things. Shouldn't we be 'cutting our cloth' etc?

Fargo86 Tue 09-Apr-13 13:18:11

We can still afford a decent funeral for one of our greatest leaders.

TheSecondComing Tue 09-Apr-13 13:18:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

delboysfileofax Tue 09-Apr-13 13:21:40

But we can't though Fargo. Either we (as in the UK) have fuck all money or we don't. Seems there's plenty of money to throw around for old a woman to get a pay rise, now there's even more for a big old send off for another one. Throw her in a pit. She ensured there's plenty of them about

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 13:23:53

We have plenty of money, we just don't choose to spend it in the right areas, but it's there and lots of it.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 09-Apr-13 13:25:16

Plenty of people are in support of the funeral arrangements though, and they pay tax too.

Saying we can't afford £8m on a funeral because the country is skint is like me saying I can't afford to spend £5 on a lipstick because I don't have enough for an £80 coat.

£8m is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

Fargo86 Tue 09-Apr-13 13:26:27

We do not have plenty of money. How many benefits would the cost of Thatcher's funeral pay for? A day's worth? Not even that.

LadyClariceCannockMonty Tue 09-Apr-13 13:26:30

'AIBU to think Thatcher's funeral procession will attract protesters throughout UK?'

We can but hope.

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 13:27:28

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Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 13:27:39

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TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 13:27:57

Well put, Clouds. 8 million wouldn't touch the sides when it comes to the cuts.

Fargo86 Tue 09-Apr-13 13:28:03

I would imagine that the people in favour of having a ceremonial funeral for Thatcher pay a hell of a lot more tax than the people lighting bonfires in the street and calling her an old cunt.

TheSecondComing Tue 09-Apr-13 13:28:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fargo86 Tue 09-Apr-13 13:28:58

It'll be the same few Class War idiots/SWP cretins that will protest. The general public won't care a bit.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 13:29:14

BBC Link

Thugs. That's all these people are. Why does protest = violence. It's just another excuse for braindead idiots to get on the streets to fight and damage other people's property.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Tue 09-Apr-13 13:30:36

If they were 'celebrating' her death why didn't they open a few tinnies and party in the park. Why do they have to set fire to stuff. Idiots.

TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 13:30:42

I'm not supporting it either, but the time to make a stand was in 2011 when the plans were finalised. Not a week before the funeral, or worse, at the damn thing.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 09-Apr-13 13:30:52

And you know all the taxpayers in the country do you TheSecond? hmm

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 13:32:05

All the low life's rioting while the SWP morons and chattering classes on here encourage it while siping their lattes in their local costs in north London.

TheSecondComing Tue 09-Apr-13 13:33:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fargo
I am a net contributor to the tax system, I get no child benefit, I don't even get a tax free allowance.

I am not in favour of her ceremonial funeral so don't include me in your calculations. If the family want to pay for a large funeral in St Paul's good luck to them.

tiggytape Tue 09-Apr-13 13:38:51

TheSecondComing - I don't think the 'people you know' counts as even broadly representative of the population as a whole especially as you may not encourage friendships with those of completely opposite political leanings to yourself or even people who couldn't care less either way. I may be wrong though - you may be a prominent politician or work for a polling organisation?

To contrast, the vast majority of people I know couldn't care less. Those pushed a bit think it is probably a good idea because she was important in a vague way they probably wouldn't care to be drawn on and those who are against it oppose it just because of the money and are the same people who think we shouldn’t have bid for the Olympics or paid for a royal wedding either (i.e. nothing personal just purely money).

Public opinion and MN isn't always the same thing either.
A Guardian Poll today showed:
50% of the population thought Thatcher was good for our country
34% thought she was bad
11% said neither good or bad
5% don't know

delboysfileofax Tue 09-Apr-13 13:39:52

So the people who pay the most tax should have the biggest say Fargo?
Surely it doesn't matter if it's "peanuts" the country is either skint or it isn't.

Why not start a just give website? Then all the little Tories who idolise her so can pay out of their own pocket. The taxpayers should not be paying for this under any circumstances

YANBU. I think it's a terrible idea. The country is broke and it's a slap in the face to all those having benefits cut. It's going to be a magnet for protests. She doesn't deserve it and apparently didn't want it.

I know others have said that £8m is a drop in the ocean but when you think it would pay for over 360 nurses for a year it seems like a hell of a lot to me.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 13:43:52

TheSecondComing

Clouds, I do not know one person from any part of my life who is in support of this. People are saying they don't agree with protests /disrupting funeral but nobody thinks it is a good idea. For a number of reasons.

I imagine it depends on the sort of friends/family you have. I've spoken to two people who wanted a full state funeral and one who didn't want any funeral.

For those wondering how far £8 million will go, here is how far £8 million will go when spent on welfare:

It'll run the NHS for 24 minutes.
It'll run the country's state schools for 35 minutes.

Those people objecting to the spending of the money aren't objecting because of the money, but who it's being spent on. They're exactly the same people whinging endlessly about 'evil tory cuts', ad infinitum.

If, like me, you're bored by right-on marxists abusing the legacy of Britain's greatest post-war PM, remember that the reason they're doing it is because she stripped them of all their power. As this article in the Telegraph describes far more eloquently than I can, the modern left is insignificant. No political party dares uses the word 'socialism'. It is poison. Thatcher-rants are all they have left now.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 09-Apr-13 13:44:02

It helps a lot TSC, thanks thanks

You 'know' me, and I think it's a good idea. The only thing that makes it a bad idea is the cretins that are too stupid to see that a funeral is no place for a protest, about anything. Apart from a few idiots, I think it's great that the first female Prime Minister will be recognised in her death for all that she achieved.

Either way, the decision has been made. There is just no point in going there to protest at the actual event. The people planning to protest are going to be the ones actively bumping up the cost of the thing!

Viviennemary Tue 09-Apr-13 13:47:04

I'm not a socialist. But I am quite amazed at all the so called socialist politicians lining up to pay homage. I wonder what the labour benches will be like tomorrow in parliament. Somebody on TV was speculating whether Labour MP's will stay away or will attend in order to speak against. Best stay away I think.

thegreylady Tue 09-Apr-13 14:08:57

I think it should be an entirely private affair.
She did as much harm as good[if not more] and should just be treated like any dead politician.It's not as though she were Churchill who has remained loved and respected through the years.
Compare her ghastly 'where there is....let us bring ...' speech with Churchill's stirring oratory.

Fargo86 Tue 09-Apr-13 14:13:42

Thatcher did far more good than harm. She brought this country into the late 20th century.

How many people who say they "hate Thatcher" would like to go back to the way things were prior to 1979?

Unami Tue 09-Apr-13 14:15:50

I think that spending 8 million on Thatcher's funeral is a gross insult to the women of this country, who are bearing the brunt of public sector cuts and benefit cuts at once. Don't forget Thatcher's own words, "The feminists hate me, don't they? And I don't blame them. For I hate feminism. It is poison".

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 14:18:28

All the low life's rioting while the SWP morons and chattering classes on here encourage it while siping their lattes in their local costs in north London.

Maggysinge Did you join MN just to be as offensive as possible? It is one thing to disagree with people, but quite another to refer to them as morons and low life's (sic)

Or 'cretins' Clouds & Trees

grovel Tue 09-Apr-13 14:25:59

Unami, don't bother being insulted on my behalf.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 09-Apr-13 14:30:23

Have just googled the word cretin in case it had a meaning I was unaware of, and it appears that it does. So I apologise for using that word, and I will not do so again. It was a genuine mistake.

TheSecondComing Tue 09-Apr-13 14:49:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 14:58:37

Oh the irony of you Gideon! You're getting offended by my choice of words yet you have no qualms about using disgusting and vile language against a deceased old woman who saved this country. I think you need to give your face a wobble.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 15:01:25

Maggy - Yes, your language is offensive. Please do point out any 'disgusting' or 'vile' language I have used.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 15:04:23

Thanks, Clouds.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 09-Apr-13 15:22:10

I think you need to give your face a wobble.
This and 'citrus-titted arsepart' are my favourite MN insults. grin

I have no love for Mrs Thatcher and disagree with spending £8m on a huge funeral. However, I don't agree with protesting at her funeral because it's a shitty thing to do.

ajandjjmum Tue 09-Apr-13 16:05:21

Sadly the sort of people who will protest at her funeral don't have the sensitivity or intelligence to realise that it's a shitty thing to do.

I can respect the opinions of those who don't agree with spending £8M on a funeral, although I don't agree with them.

And some of the language used to describe MT - are people really so thick that they can't find decent words to express how they feel?

PeaceandFUCKINGLove Tue 09-Apr-13 16:13:00

I will be protesting. I won't be taking part in any violence or anything, and I hope that other protestors will do the same.

Its a public occasion, the public are footing the bill, so the public can protest there if they want to. If they don't like it, then thats too bad, they can avoid it by doing it privately and paying for it themselves.

I have limited sympathy for her arms dealer and racist children anyway.

SueDoku Tue 09-Apr-13 16:29:34

PeaceandFUCKINGLove Well said. If they want a public occasion, then they have to accept that the public may not agree with them. If they want dignity and civility, then keep the funeral private and no-one will make a murmur.

Ullena Tue 09-Apr-13 16:47:54

You do realise that money that is spent is then effectively a part of the economy again? So that £8 million will go to pay those involved in the funeral proper, the policing, the media circus, etc.

Let me see:
Undertakers
Mortuary
Coffin
Floristry
Security/policing
Cremation
Donation to religious overseer of choice
Payment of any celebretaries who appear/speak, etc
Payment of said celebretaries staff
Interment costs
Notices of death
Tailoring costs for mourners

That's a lot of people who will be making money out of this. About £8 million worth actually. Any florists/media types out there? Anyone who sells clothing? Manufactures textiles?

Just pointing out the obvious...

mortifieddotcom Tue 09-Apr-13 16:53:24

£8 million would go a massive way to helping my town (incidentally an old mining town).
We no longer have any youth workers in the council. £8million would go a massive way to supporting the troubled youths in this area. 75% of our council workers have been made redundant. £8 million would go a long way to solving that.

It might not be a huge amount of money nationally but it doesn't mean it wouldn't do a huge amount of good somewhere. It's a dispicable amount of money to spend on a funeral. I am sure the family would prefer a private goodbye as would Thatcher herself. Absolutely crazy.
It might have been a labour government who set out the plans but plans can change. It is no longer the time to be wasting money when so many people are suffering: having to use food banks, redundancies etc.

I hope common sense prevails and there aren't riots or dangerous protests but I can certainly see why many would be pissed off and would consider causing a 'fuss'.

mortifieddotcom Tue 09-Apr-13 16:56:34

Yes Ullena. We all know those celebrities need more money. I am also sure they will choose a florest who is really struggling due to the recession. I am sure the order will save his/her shop. I am equally sure the tailoring will be done in stores that are having problems too. Ummmm maybe not.

Tailoring costs for mourners what so we have to pay for Mark Thatcher's suit.

I suspect the majority of the budget will go on police overtime costs.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 17:08:29

I find it laughable that many of those asking for respect for Thatcher on these threads are the people that treat those on benefits as though they were shit on their shoe. Publicly too.

manicinsomniac Tue 09-Apr-13 17:09:40

I do have a lot of respect for Margaret Thatcher and think she was a very strong leader who did some great (as well as some terrible) things.

However, I disagree with 8 million pounds being spent on anyone's funeral, it's ridiculous. It won't ease her families pain and she won't know about it (and didn't even want it!) so what's the point? I would feel the same about any state funeral, even the queen's.

It might not be a huge amount of money but I think the government are being foolish here. They could do a lot of good for a few with this money. They'd probably benefit from the good public feeling they'd receive if they picked an area that had really suffered under Thatcher and regenerated it with that money instead of spending it on the funeral.

mortifieddotcom Tue 09-Apr-13 17:10:50

Completely agree manic. I would feel that 8 million was rediculous for anyone's funeral. Picking an area to start regnerating with this cash would be a great idea.

Altinkum Tue 09-Apr-13 17:14:32

I'm reading these commets and thinking what horrible people some of these posters are.

Many are saying, all that money spent on her, it should go elsewhere.

Then stay away and keep the costs done, by protesting your only adding to those costs by going and protesting. Pot, kettle black....

TSSDNCOP Tue 09-Apr-13 17:19:24

I'd bet 8 million quid not one of the people on here saying they'll protest, protest dammit will be within judgeypant flinging distance of the capital on the day of the funeral.

TSSDNCOP Tue 09-Apr-13 17:21:17

And how would anyone pick a cause to spend the 8 million quid on.

Cameron: lets give it to X

Great Britain outside X goes fucking bananas.

boxershorts Tue 09-Apr-13 17:23:17

Local radio has behaved supidly 12 hours brodcast in 2 days. Wke up BBC Local radio

boxershorts Tue 09-Apr-13 17:24:38

I dont respect normal Tory leaders. Why should I respect Mrs Thatcher dead or alive? I like her daughter Carold.

grovel Tue 09-Apr-13 17:29:35

No need to respect Mrs Thatcher. Lots of good reasons to respect a funeral.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 17:37:16

I'd bet 8 million quid not one of the people on here saying they'll protest, protest dammit will be within judgeypant flinging distance of the capital on the day of the funeral.

I don't think many have said they will protest, but have said they would understand if other people were to protest and who feel it's immoral to spend so much money celebrating this woman.

There's a massive difference. For example:
Q: Do I find it completely out of order that so much money will be spent on a ceremony for a woman who divided communities, supported apartheid etc. etc.?
A. Yes.
Q: Would I object by, say, writing to the press/signing a petition, eg. exercising my democratic right to protest?
A: Yes.
Q: Am I going to take to the streets screaming and waving banners/rioting/throwing petrol bombs?
A. No. Of course not.

TSSDNCOP Tue 09-Apr-13 17:41:08

Oh well, so long as it's other people protesting. If we all wait for the other people to protest that'll be a properly notable protest grin

handcream Tue 09-Apr-13 17:51:04

I agree £8 m is a lot of money. I also agree that alot of it will be spent buying flowers, allowing police overtime etc

Its funny, people dont want £8m spent on this, some are asking for it to be spent on themselves and their home towns! What a surprise. We could all make a case for spending £8 m within our home towns (yes, all of us - there are good causes everywhere)

And lets watch rent a crowd re the protestors. What exactly are they protesting about. Is it really about the cost of the funeral or is it an excuse for a day out for them. The London riots were the same a few years ago. People werent protesting about being unable to feed their families, they were piliging and robbing the mobile stores, stealing designer trainers and burning down a family furniture store which had been in place for over 100 years.

I would never protest at any funeral, it is crass and in very poor taste, but it is also in poor taste to spend £8 million pounds on the funeral of a politician who divided the country so much that we are still arguing about her 20 years after she left power.
I understand that people will be very angry about this, as am I but also realise that a lot of people hold her dear (mistakenly in my view but that is neither here nor there.) Maybe a memorial service would have been a better idea, allowing people to pay their respects at less cost to the public purse and allowing the private funeral Mrs Thatcher actually wanted. Gordon Brown got this very wrong imo.

AmberLeaf Tue 09-Apr-13 17:59:18

All the low life's rioting while the SWP morons and chattering classes on here encourage it while sipping their lattes in their local costs in north London

Oh fuck off

Im working class from south London and if there was anyone to care for my disabled child in my absence Id go and peacefully protest.

Bored of hearing the 'middle classes from Islington' stereotype on here.

£8million is fucking obscene

TheSecondComing Tue 09-Apr-13 18:03:07

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kendodd Tue 09-Apr-13 18:03:21

There is a petition

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/45966

Although it is badly worded asking for 'no state funeral' and she is not having a state funeral anyway. Hopefully they get the intention.

I've signed

Darkesteyes Tue 09-Apr-13 18:04:18

I find it strange that people are demanding respect for Thatcher...usually the same people who didnt show any respect for the Philpott children and the way the Daily Mail and Gov. used them last week.
And the fact that Thatcher supported apartheid and yet is getting all this compassion from the Daily Mail while at the same time they are vilifying Paris Brown (Paris was wrong to tweet what she did) but bloody hell this hypocrisy is mind boggling.

Kendodd Tue 09-Apr-13 18:07:31

There is a petition

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/45966

Although it is badly worded asking for 'no state funeral' and she is not having a state funeral anyway. Hopefully they get the intention.

I've signed

If you want to do something sign the petition and post it on facebook, that will show your opposition without even having to leave the house.

mrsjay Tue 09-Apr-13 18:07:52

YANBU i think a private funeral would have been better for everybody has any other PM apart from churchill get such a fuss made ?

mrsjay Tue 09-Apr-13 18:09:47

and tbh with all the 'partying'yesterday I think they will have a rethink they will not want a riot on their hands in London again

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 18:15:12

It'd telling that across the MT threads it's largely the MT's fervent supporters that are getting deleted for breaking Talk Guidelines.
It's also mildly amusing to lightly play "right wing bingo". Points for looney-left, champagne socialists, rent-a-crowd, etc. You'd suspect a lack of imagination possibly?

grovel Tue 09-Apr-13 18:16:09

This what the man who released Mandela has got to say:

FW de Klerk, the last president under apartheid, praised Margaret Thatcher, who died on Monday, saying she had a "much better grasp" of the apartheid situation than many world leaders at the time.

Britain’s only woman prime minister died aged 87 following a stroke.

Lady Thatcher was heavily criticised for resisting calls for economic sanctions against the apartheid regime.

In a statement, Mr de Klerk said: "Although she was always a steadfast critic of apartheid, she had a much better grasp of the complexities and geo-strategic realities of South Africa than many of her contemporaries. She consistently, and correctly, believed that much more could be achieved through constructive engagement with the South African government than through draconian sanctions and isolation.

"She also understood the need to consider the concerns and aspirations of all South Africans in their search for constitutional consensus."

He said Lady Thatcher had played a positive role in supporting South Africa’s own process of nonracial constitutional transformation.

"From my first meeting with her in London after my election as leader of the National Party in 1989 and throughout the rest of her tenure as prime minister, she gave strong and valued support to me and to all other leaders who were working for a peaceful, prosperous, and constitutional future for South Africa."

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 18:19:06

grovel as a raging racists, de Klerk would say that, wouldn't he? I'm not sure calling up his words are best? Possibly the ANC's take is more apposite?

grovel Tue 09-Apr-13 18:19:54

Darkesteyes, I hope you read the post above and stop repeating the rubbish about MT supporting apartheid.

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 18:20:53

erm....these are words from an historic racist. Is that fact being missed at all?

specialsubject Tue 09-Apr-13 18:21:13

actually I was quite fed up at the fortune spent on Princess Di, who never did anything very much. At least this one is cheaper.

Maggie Thatcher was a private citizen with no honours. She did her job (whether you like what she did or not), end of. I don't see why she gets a funeral at anyone's expense except that of her family.

Actually I think I do see - Cameron's decided to make a point at our expense.

AmberLeaf Tue 09-Apr-13 18:22:14

as a raging racists, de Klerk would say that, wouldn't he?

Exactly!

That's like pol pot saying Hitler was a good bloke.

Tanith Tue 09-Apr-13 18:25:37

I see that Gordon Brown and the Labour Government proposed and agreed on Mrs. Thatcher's funeral arrangements.

There are several other arrangements proposed and agreed by the last Labour Government that David Cameron's Government have had no hesitation in "reforming" or scrapping altogether, all in the name of Austerity.

Why not this one?

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 09-Apr-13 18:25:43

grin Not by those of us who were part of the anti-apartheid movement Pan.
By all means wheel out De Klerk as a character witness for Maggie.
There would be other right-wing dictators with nothing but kind things to say about her. Unfortunately most of them are dead too.

Kendodd Tue 09-Apr-13 18:26:25

Sorry third time posting, but if people don't like it sign the petition. Anyone signed yet?

There is a petition

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/45966

Although it is badly worded asking for 'no state funeral' and she is not having a state funeral anyway. Hopefully they get the intention.

I've signed

If you want to do something sign the petition and post it on facebook, that will show your opposition without even having to leave the house.

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 09-Apr-13 18:27:00

I think that she should have a Ferengi funeral, true to her values.

Kendodd Tue 09-Apr-13 18:27:23
grovel Tue 09-Apr-13 18:28:27

I agree that MT despised the ANC (terrorists) but know she was anti-apartheid.

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 18:31:31

KDDD - I'd happily sign it IF it was in any way accurate. Take your point about it not being a state funeral anyway, but that thing undermines it totally. If it said 'no public money to be spent on her funeral' then fine. But as it stands it makes the 'protest' look silly and uninformed? Sorry.

PeaceandFUCKINGLove Tue 09-Apr-13 18:32:45

DSSDNCOP - I meant it when I said I will be protesting. Me and my mate have booked our train tickets and everything.

You owe me 8 million quid.

Cheque will be fine...... smile

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 18:33:21

Crumbs, she supported the apartheid regime as best she could! Dennis and his chums had vast investment in the country. Business came first, 'conviction' a v poor second.

TSSDNCOP Tue 09-Apr-13 18:37:10

Well I'll see you there Peace. Will be wearing the MN scarf.

PeaceandFUCKINGLove Tue 09-Apr-13 18:39:33

I'll keep an eye out for you. grin

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 19:06:59

Pan

Crumbs, she supported the apartheid regime as best she could! Dennis and his chums had vast investment in the country. Business came first, 'conviction' a v poor second.

De Clerk was anti-Communist, as was Pinochet.

Luckily for the UK our foreign policy wasn't being run by a university common room in the 1980s, or heavens knows when the Cold War would have ended.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 19:27:01

Oh do grow up, flatpack. It's all there on record. She did not support the anti apatheid movement. For a kick off, too much had been invested in diamond mines.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 19:27:36

Oh, and I'm old enough to have been around at the time. Spent many a day lurking outside the South African Embassy.

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 19:28:20

All of which rather proves the point a few of us have been making, flatpack. ( political ideology and financial self-interest over democracy and freedom of SA people). Thanks for that.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 19:30:11

Love, just love that flatpack is supporting dictators!
wink

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 19:44:20

WHAT? She's getting a state funeral (as good as)?

Just.... What?????????????

I am flabbergasted. Jesus.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 19:44:56

Pan

All of which rather proves the point a few of us have been making, flatpack. ( political ideology and financial self-interest over democracy and freedom of SA people). Thanks for that.

Actually, what it proves is that your politics haven't grown up.

In a university common room, or when you're 15, the world is full of simple binary choices. In the world of RealPolitik, it's complicated. Let's say Thatcher kowtowed to the extremists who wanted a total boycott of SA. The SA government falls. A Marxist ANC government takes over, backed by the Soviet Union. SA becomes a communist state and drives out the evil rich white people. The economy goes the same way as Zimbabwe, because that's what happens with a socialist economy.

How does that advance the freedom of the SA people? They're no freer now than they were under apartheid. The only difference is that their leaders are black.

So Thatcher worked with people that she might find politically distasteful, in order to secure Britain's long term security. She was elected to serve the British people, not the South African people.

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 19:49:46

So in your opinion people are wrong to support things like anti-apartheid?

Well OK then, whatever. <shrugs>

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 19:51:04

Oh soz just seen you're a supporter of people like de klerk and pinochet.

Each to their own I guess but I'm not interested in engaging.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 19:51:24

Psml at flatpacks latest gem.

Kendodd Tue 09-Apr-13 19:53:31

KDDD - I'd happily sign it IF it was in any way accurate. Take your point about it not being a state funeral anyway, but that thing undermines it totally. If it said 'no public money to be spent on her funeral' then fine. But as it stands it makes the 'protest' look silly and uninformed? Sorry.

Yes I know it's far from perfect but I've signed it anyway, it gets the feeling across. I suspected there may by a petition about it and so had a look on the Gov petitions website for 'Thatcher' three active petition came up including 'Rename the Falkland Islands to Thatcher Islands'.

There are a lot of closed/rejected petitions wanting no 'state' funeral. My favourite was 'Thatcher state funeral to be privatised' it's very clever and funny.

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 19:54:27

oh flat get over yourself and your fear fantasies! A Marxist govt in Pretoria was never, ever a likelihood. Even IF it was, SA would have been a democracy and so chose it's path of self-determination? But that sort of fear-mongering may serve the needs of the financially-interested parties to maintain a status quo. i.e. keep the majority of it's population powerless.

I'm not sure which colour on the roulette wheel was feared most. Black or red?

Kendodd Tue 09-Apr-13 19:54:27
Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 19:56:30

yes NT - I should leave some people to events in their own head.

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 20:02:04

Hold on a sec

It's on weds and is basically a state funeral. Do we all get a day off work then? No? And central London's going to be fucked isn't it, for commuters, because of all this.

Fan-fucking-tastic.

ravenAK Tue 09-Apr-13 20:10:22

I rather hope people don't protest at the funeral..

Can't stomach the thought of Nick Robinson smugging faux-disapprovingly over the spectacle of 'rioters'.

Bad enough we have to pay for this disgraceful farce without giving the Tory party a free gift like that.

Looks like 'Ding dong the witch is dead' is doing rather nicely in the charts. That'll do.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 20:23:32

NiceTabard

So in your opinion people are wrong to support things like anti-apartheid?

Well OK then, whatever. <shrugs>

Oh soz just seen you're a supporter of people like de klerk and pinochet.

Each to their own I guess but I'm not interested in engaging.

This is the problem. To you, the world is simple and binary. It's impossible for you to comprehend a world where it is more complicated. A thing is either good, or it's bad. Your thinking is a perfect exemplar of why left-wing politics is so ridiculous and why people grow out of it.

Why isn't it possible in your head to dislike apartheid and still work with an apartheid government to ensure that a less friendly government doesn't take power?

Pan

oh flat get over yourself and your fear fantasies! A Marxist govt in Pretoria was never, ever a likelihood. Even IF it was, SA would have been a democracy and so chose it's path of self-determination?

You do know that 'marxist government' and 'democracy' don't go together, don't you? How would they achieve 'self-determination' with a Soviet jackboot on their necks?

But that sort of fear-mongering may serve the needs of the financially-interested parties to maintain a status quo. i.e. keep the majority of it's population powerless.

Yes, and I expect the illuminati and lizard men will be along in a minute to explain what a cunning plot it all was. Come on. Are you too young to remember the Cold War?

I'm not sure which colour on the roulette wheel was feared most. Black or red?

Probably a fair question in the 1970s. Luckily nowadays - and thanks to Thatcher - red has been consigned to the dustbin of history.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 20:27:37

Oh for God's sake flat, get over yourself. I was a fucking historian. It didn't happen, it wasn't even likely to happen and if you as paranoid as this all of the time, you need some help. Stop being so bloody patronising, you are not the only person on these boards that understood/understands the politics of the time. Now, run along and get that paranoia sorted.

Are you really going to protest/cause a disturbance at the funeral of an 87yo woman who's just died of a stroke? Who left Government office over 20 years ago. Words fail me.

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 20:28:53

What I'd suggest is that there should be a fly by on the day of her funeral using military jets powered by the money saved with the benefit cuts. That would be lovely.

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 20:29:49

Proper ROFL maggysinge grin

JakeBullet Tue 09-Apr-13 20:33:06

Flat pack...I am left wing but my politics are not simplistic or ridiculous....unlike on the "bedroom tax" thread yesterday where more than one right wing supporter made comments about "the poor waiting for society to look after them" and one poster asserting that her disabled cousin managed okay so the rest of us must be lazy for needing disability benefits or that extra bedroom.....I was probably deleted for my apoplectic response to her idiotic comments.

So trust me...right wing voters can be just as simplistic and fuck witted when it suits them.

I wasn't a fan of MT but she did some good stuff as well as bad, she's been very unwell over the past few years and I am glad she is at peace now. I certainly will not be protesting at her funeral.

ravenAK Tue 09-Apr-13 20:33:41

It would certainly be in keeping with the entire ethos of the event, maggysinge. smile.

JakeBullet Tue 09-Apr-13 20:34:47

Ah it's Maggy who knows all about disability owing to having a disabled cousin.

Trolling a bit aren't you with another fuck witted comment there?

Kendodd Tue 09-Apr-13 20:34:56

You know the more I think about this 'state' funeral business, I just can't believe that they have gone along with it, it's such a bad idea. Inevitability there will be protests/parties, how are they going to stop that along the route? Leaders that are attending from other countries will see it all. It's just going to be embarrassing. Having said that, they're not going to cancel it now, so will London be in total lock down? The quoted figure of £8,000,000 seems no where near enough to police it and I'm assuming that figure doesn't include losses to business due to disruption. Bad, bad, bad idea.

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 20:37:02

Nope flat. I'm 15. Too young to remember the Cold War. Sorry.

Another mark on the right-wing bingo card. 'Soviet jack boot'. House!
You do realise that the more you post the more of a parody you present yourself?

I also hope there is no 'disruption' at her funeral. But I'd also hope there is a mass of civil disobedience as much as is possible elsewhere. Reminds me of Osbourne at the Olympics when it dawned on him that the boo-ing of him at an awards ceremony was sustained and not just a 'joke'.

JakeBullet Tue 09-Apr-13 20:39:17

She was an iconic figure, she did some good stuff too....a lot of world changes occurred due to Margaret Thatcher, President Reagan and Pope John Paul II.

I think this funeral needs to acknowledge her contribution to the world...although she definitely polarised opinions.

I have no issue with the funeral personally...

Maggysinge Tue 09-Apr-13 20:42:38

Not trolling at all jake just you know all the lefties come here with their hate and vitriol against a dead woman but oh if I post something you don't like its different then isn't it? Hypocrites the lot of you.

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 20:52:06

I don't think it's hate and vitriol against a dead woman. It's what she did when she was alive that is being roundly denounced. I'm not sure anyone on this thread has urged an 'incident' at her funeral?
As Billy Bragg said, 'don't celebrate, organise.' To ensure her acolytes don't get a 2nd term.

Viviennemary Tue 09-Apr-13 20:57:01

I'm in no way a socialist. But I think this kind of pomp and ceremony and public money spent in these times is not good judgement. It's always the case though that no matter how hard up the country is, money can be found for this. Not good.

JakeBullet Tue 09-Apr-13 20:58:15

Maggy your comment yesterday was fuck witted beyond belief...until you have spent some time on the SN board and seen what some of us have to cope with EVERY DAY you have no right to make such bloody stupid comments. Certainly not based upon ONE disabled cousin....

What's your cousin's disability, Down Syndrome, Cerebral Palsy, Autism, ADHD, Diabetes etc etc...there are thousands of types of disability (just so you know) and they affect every single person in different ways (just so you know) which means that some people will be more able than others (just so you understand). So to make the comment you did yesterday was crass, stupid and a fucking insult to those of us who have to cope with it every single day.

You might also like to know that I was fully employed for 30 years....so hardly waiting around for the State to look after me.

It sometimes takes just ONE thing out of your control to change everything .....remember that, because one day it might be YOU. If it is (and I hope it to God it isn't) then you might also have to rely on the welfare state to support you too. That is why I support it....so that when the chips are down there is a system which will support any one of us.

I don't agree that people should abuse the benefits system but nor do I expect to be judged by someone just because after years of paying in I actually have to take something out....and yesterday you judged ME and every parent in my position.

That's me out of here....end of.

Darkesteyes Tue 09-Apr-13 21:01:40

grovelTue 09-Apr-13 18:19:54

Darkesteyes, I hope you read the post above and stop repeating the rubbish about MT supporting apartheid

I stand by what i posted.

Dawndonna Tue 09-Apr-13 21:02:02

What I'd suggest is that there should be a fly by on the day of her funeral using military jets powered by the money saved with the benefit cuts. That would be lovely.
Gosh, you're clever, funny articulate and erudite, aren't you.

Darkesteyes Tue 09-Apr-13 21:07:16

Maggy are you Kelvin McKenzie.

Filling in some time after getting the sack from the Telegraph.

Thewhingingdefective Tue 09-Apr-13 21:10:19

They could just have a private funeral. Problem solved.

timidviper Tue 09-Apr-13 21:11:20

I have signed the petition even though it is not as accurate as I would like it to be.

I would like to find a real way the public can show disapproval at this ludicrous expense without having to protest at a sad old woman's funeral

maleview70 Tue 09-Apr-13 21:13:21

Exactly. She was hated by half the population. What do they expect?
Complete and utter waste of money.

What exactly did she do to deserve it?

VerySmallSqueak Tue 09-Apr-13 21:18:18

I didn't think she was too keen on processions.

She said her government was 'only too delighted to do anything we can to make life difficult for such things as hippy convoys'.

At The Battle of the Beanfield men,women and children were subjected to utter brutality at the hands of the police.

I think it only fitting that if she could sanction such treatment of a band of people heading to a place important to their beliefs and spirituality,that others may chose to take part in acts of non violent protest when her final procession takes place.

( though,as Pan says,not necessarily at the funeral itself)

twofingerstoGideon Tue 09-Apr-13 21:31:23

Maggysinge

You are very good at calling people names (low life's [sic], morons and now hypocrites), but upthread you posted this about me:

Oh the irony of you Gideon! You're getting offended by my choice of words yet you have no qualms about using disgusting and vile language against a deceased old woman who saved this country. I think you need to give your face a wobble.

I notice that you have been unable to respond to my reply:

Maggy - Yes, your language is offensive. Please do point out any 'disgusting' or 'vile' language I have used.

I presume you were unable to find an example, which rather gives the impression your sole purpose is to stir things up a little...

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 21:42:05

Is maggy right wing? Just saw her comment about the jets and thought it was absolutely hilarious, speaking as a total leftie. Why on earth did she make a joke abut pissing away money that should be spent on vulnerable people is not as a leftie joke about the callousness of the right wing and the pointlessness of their cuts?? Bizarre.

Darkesteyes Tue 09-Apr-13 21:51:07
TheCraicDealer Tue 09-Apr-13 22:01:02

Plenty of MN'ers managed to read between the lines and get what he was at with that tweet, so not mentioning her name is irrelevant. People are entitled to express whatever views they want, but for gods sake, you'd need to be a fucking idiot to carry on like that when representing your employer on twitter.

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 22:06:06

yes, as dumb can be. Sounds like an email/letter/post/tweet you write but have the good sense to not actually send.

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 22:06:55

Woah that is way extreme. Poor bloke.

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 22:07:21

Maybe he'll get re-educated and sent back to work.

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 22:07:31

Forgot the hmm

edam Tue 09-Apr-13 22:36:30
Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 22:43:25

Health and Safety concerns that Elvis Costello hadn't considered..The Daily Mash

Pan Tue 09-Apr-13 22:46:14

woops, wrong MT thread!

NiceTabard Tue 09-Apr-13 22:46:55

that news thump thing is hilarious grin

PeaceandFUCKINGLove Tue 09-Apr-13 22:47:02

Goodbye Iron Lady.

May you rust in peace

grovel Tue 09-Apr-13 22:57:04

Believe what you will, Darkesteyes. Helen Suzman (a friend of my father's) told me face-to-face that Thatcher was against apartheid. I was inclined to believe her.

grovel Tue 09-Apr-13 22:58:31

And, FWIW, I don't care for Thatcher at all. I just don't like post-mortem distortions of the truth.

flatpackhamster Wed 10-Apr-13 07:16:49

Pan

Nope flat. I'm 15. Too young to remember the Cold War. Sorry.

And of course, since you were schooled under the Labour government, you don't know any history either, which is why you can be so facetious about it. Where did you get your Thatcher-hate from? Please don't tell me it was school.

^Another mark on the right-wing bingo card. 'Soviet jack boot'. House!
You do realise that the more you post the more of a parody you present yourself?^

Why don't you find yourself some Poles or Czechs or Hungarians and ask them what they thought about the Soviets? See if they'd describe the Soviets as 'a snuggly group of misunderstood fluffy bunnies'. Take a trip to Budapest if you get a chance, and visit the secret police headquarters there, which is now a museum. There are five floors, and on the four walls of basement floor are written the names of the people that the Soviets killed. The basement was the torture chamber. Thousands of names. Hahaha. Mock it. Laugh it up.

I also hope there is no 'disruption' at her funeral. But I'd also hope there is a mass of civil disobedience as much as is possible elsewhere. Reminds me of Osbourne at the Olympics when it dawned on him that the boo-ing of him at an awards ceremony was sustained and not just a 'joke'.

The booing of Osborne at a public ceremony showed a total lack of class. Osborne is a hopeless incompetent who is totally out of his depth but there's a time and a place for politics.

Isityouorme Wed 10-Apr-13 07:36:23

I am getting so pissed off at all these parties which people are having to celebrate her death. Not only is it rude but these people in their twenties know jack shit about the Maggie Thatcher years. The violence and looting by young people is just an excuse to be wanker yobs.

I haven't seen many people aged 40 and above speaking out.

What PM has been all good? None...it doesn't happen.

twofingerstoGideon Wed 10-Apr-13 07:41:16

Flatpack
Yes, there's a time and a place for everything. The people who booed Osborne are probably unlikely to encounter him again, so they took the opportunity (time/place) to make their sentiments felt while they could. Perfectly understandable.

You really would support the Tories in any situation at all, wouldn't you? I'm not sure that kind of sheep-like, blind allegiance is healthy.

And do you really think some kind of Soviet dystopia is the only alternative to Toryism?

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 08:47:27

Isityou
I'm 54 and here I am speaking out.

twofingerstoGideon Wed 10-Apr-13 08:52:52

Isityou I'm well over 40 and I'm speaking out too. Although I will not be 'celebrating', ie. drinking champagne in the streets, I will certainly add my voice to any others protesting about the lavish - and in my view quite unprecedented and undeserved - funeral. I know considerably more than 'jack shit' about the Thatcher years, too, having lived through them.

ChocsAwayInMyGob Wed 10-Apr-13 09:13:16

I'm 43 and I lived through the Thatcher years. Yes, all PMs get things wrong, but she had a catastrophic effect on the poor, more so than any PM in living memory.

I was certainly around during the Thatcher years, whilst I wont be partying or protesting I can certainly understand those that will. I really am opposed to the funeral, I think a politician that divided the country so much such as she did should be buried in private, and find it hard to believe that anyone would be niave to think that the whole country will be mourning her loss.

We live in a free society, one that allows people to demonstrate their views, so be it.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 09:44:28

grovel
I think that Joe and Peter Haines may well disagree with you.
Apart from which Thatcher's 'grubby little terrorist' description of Mandela hardly does your stance credit, does it.

ajandjjmum Wed 10-Apr-13 09:55:00

Under her govt. Britain regained respect throughout the world, which meant that we had the opportunity to gain individual self-respect - the value of that cannot be counted in monetary terms.

I too am 54, and remember well the Winter of Discontent, which was the result of several weak governments taking more and more stick from the unions, giving in to increased demands and crippling companies so that they could no longer afford to employ people. It wasn't fun.

BrittaPie Wed 10-Apr-13 10:05:04

Tbf, we've had a bit of a tinderbox for a while with the cuts and the benefit changes really kicking in. Almost everyone is seeing something they love attacked, even if they agree with it. Many people don't, and previously non political people are starting to get restless.

The funeral could be the spark that sets it off.

Imagine looking at losing your house, your job, your local library where you could have looked for work, legal aid to fight your case, having to pay for csa or your benefit will be cut even more, seeing your teenager out of work too, the youth club shut, etc etc etc. Now imagine seeing all that pomp for a politician. Even if you don't have any interest in the history, party politics or socialism, you'd be pissed off, right?

I'm a Fabian, I'm not rubbing my hands the way some of my SWP friends are, but it is hard to deny that things could kick off.

The worry is that Tories will use unrest as an excuse to do...who knows what? It'll be bad news for the working class anyway.

Fargo86 Wed 10-Apr-13 10:07:18

I think the protest will be a damp squib.

ajandjjmum Wed 10-Apr-13 10:12:19

We're nearly all working class! Our income has reduced by half and it's a struggle at the moment - but I accept that we have to deal with it. If the money's not there, we can't spend it. Being pissed off won't help.

Although I think MT did a lot of good for this country (not ALL good), I think £8M is a huge amount to spend on a funeral, but then I see other huge figures being spent (wasted) that I don't agree with, and there's hardly a whimper from anyone.

AmberLeaf Wed 10-Apr-13 10:19:25

but these people in their twenties know jack shit about the Maggie Thatcher years

That's bullshit.

Her reign is history, you didn't have to be there to know about it, it is all very well documented.

I haven't seen many people aged 40 and above speaking out

You can't have looked far then.

ATJabberwocky Wed 10-Apr-13 10:23:17

It's disgraceful for groups to plan to dance on graves, destroy the grave and attempt to disrupt the service. Show some respect for the dead.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 10:24:28

It's disgraceful for groups to plan to dance on graves, destroy the grave and attempt to disrupt the service. Show some respect for the dead
No.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 10-Apr-13 10:32:47

I also hope there is no 'disruption' at her funeral. But I'd also hope there is a mass of civil disobedience as much as is possible elsewhere. Reminds me of Osbourne at the Olympics when it dawned on him that the boo-ing of him at an awards ceremony was sustained and not just a 'joke'.

The booing that Osbourne got wasn't nearly as bad as people on the left like to make out. I was lucky enough to be there that night, the crowd was excited and were making a noise at anything. Obviously, it's a big stadium and I can't speak for everyone that was in it, but the booing was a very low level, and good natured reaction to someone that simply wasn't one of the paralympians. Everyone had smiles on their faces and were looking round in surprise at each other that other people had made the same little booing noise that that had just done. It really truly wasn't anywhere near as bad as some people like to think.

infamouspoo Wed 10-Apr-13 11:25:39

45 and speaking out.
Just because someone is dead you dont suddenly have to sow some respect.

handcream Wed 10-Apr-13 11:26:01

I was there on that day during the Olympics. It was unecessary. He looked very uncomfortable and imho not appropriate at an event like this.

LadyClariceCannockMonty Wed 10-Apr-13 11:30:44

I don't know why it's not appropriate, or why it shows a 'lack of class', for people to express their feelings about a public figure if they make a public appearance at a public event. If Osborne had been attending as a private citizen, just sitting in the stands, and someone had pointed him out and people had booed/jeered, that would have been different.

LadyClariceCannockMonty Wed 10-Apr-13 11:31:39

PS of course he looked uncomfortable. I don't think that's a problem. It's a democracy and, again in the context of a public event, everyone has a democratic right to express their opinion.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 11:36:36

The booing that Osbourne got wasn't nearly as bad as people on the left like to make out. I was lucky enough to be there that night, the crowd was excited and were making a noise at anything.
Funny. My very Tory brother was there and is far more honest about the event than you.

NiceTabard Wed 10-Apr-13 11:36:37

If I was given the opportunity to boo gideon I would grasp it keenly with both hands grin

flatpackhamster Wed 10-Apr-13 11:36:39

LadyClariceCannockMonty

I don't know why it's not appropriate, or why it shows a 'lack of class', for people to express their feelings about a public figure if they make a public appearance at a public event. If Osborne had been attending as a private citizen, just sitting in the stands, and someone had pointed him out and people had booed/jeered, that would have been different.

Because the world was watching, and it was Britain's chance to showcase itself. Just as the Leftoids who are threatening to riot at Thatcher's funeral show a lack of class, booing at the Olympics because you disagree with the politics of the person on the stage shows a lack of class.

It's immature, it's petty, and it achieves nothing except to make everyone else look at you and think 'Grow up'. Who are you reaching out to? [[http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211461/if-labour-cant-show-restraint-today-it-will-say-more-about-them-than-it-does-about-margaret-thatcher/ Dan Hodges' article in the Telegraph today] talks about this lack of maturity from the left.

flatpackhamster Wed 10-Apr-13 11:37:25

Damn it. Fixed article link.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 11:39:43

Leftoids and you go on about immaturity.

As for lack of class, well just take a look around you. Look at your benefit bashing on various threads. You at your leftoid bashing and then come back and discuss class.
Class is something very few people have, and the word is frequently used in the wrong context, in your case, for example, I don't mean a lack of class, that is something I know little about, although have suspicions. What I actually mean is a lack of grace.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 10-Apr-13 11:42:18

I'm just giving my impression of what happened around me Dawn, like I said, it's a big stadium. I'm not saying people generally like Osbourne, they don't, myself included. I'm just saying that the booing wasn't as bad as some people like to believe.

I can honestly, hand on my heart, say that where I was, everyone was booing fairly quietly, without any malice, and people has smiles on their faces as they continued to boo.

I can assure you that while your brother may be being honest about what he witnessed, I am being equally so. Whether or not that fits into your agenda is another matter entirely.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 11:45:48

Of course it doesn't fit into my agenda Clouds, neither does my brother's politics!
Seriously though, your wording on the second post is great, it's stating that you felt it wasn't as bad, rather than stating as fact that it wasn't as bad. I'm going to pm you with a bit of an apology!

LadyClariceCannockMonty Wed 10-Apr-13 11:48:16

flatpack, I would not jump to the conclusion that the whole world was looking on with a cats-bum mouth as people booed. Sure, some of them might have been, but others may be neutral or, imagine this if you can, even agree with the booers.

IMO it's a bit insecure and Hyacinth Bucket-ish to worry so much about a bit of booing spoiling 'Britain's chance to showcase itself', or to care if some people out of a massive worldwide audience might have been thinking 'Grow up' (and I certainly don't believe that 'everyone else' was thinking that.)

miemohrs Wed 10-Apr-13 11:55:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flatpackhamster Wed 10-Apr-13 12:01:33

LadyClariceCannockMonty

flatpack, I would not jump to the conclusion that the whole world was looking on with a cats-bum mouth as people booed. Sure, some of them might have been, but others may be neutral or, imagine this if you can, even agree with the booers.

Let me put it like this. I think Gordon Brown is a dreadful man and was an awful PM. My feelings about him are just as strong as people who dislike MT. If I had been in the audience at the games, and Brown had stood up to make a speech and other people started booing him, I wouldn't join in. I'd think that it was childish and immature and that they should pack it in.

It's possible - at least amongst the percentage of a population with a brain - to separate the policies of an individual with the performance of a particular office that the individual carries out. It's possible to act respectfully even if you don't feel any respect for a person.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 12:08:30

It's possible - at least amongst the percentage of a population with a brain
Point proven.

LadyClariceCannockMonty Wed 10-Apr-13 12:12:52

'I'd think that it was childish and immature and that they should pack it in.'

Well, that's up to you. Others felt and feel differently. I wouldn't have joined in booing Osborne, as it happens, but I'd never object to a bit of booing in the kind of context we're talking about.

And it's possible to 'act respectfully', sure, but people also have a choice about whether they do or not. And I'd hazard a guess that at least some of the booers had a brain, too.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 10-Apr-13 12:32:16

'The Booers' were there to support the Paralympians and cheer on Team GB. They were an excited crowd in a hugely impressive stadium, who were making noise and cheering at everything. So the chancellor came out and received what I believe to be a good natured boo. That is all. A non event.

The atmosphere at probably every Olympic and Paralympic event was one of celebration, where people were friendly and helpful to strangers and everyone was there to have a good time. I'm not sure why people think that completely disappeared because the chancellor was out there for all of about five minutes.

Dawndonna thanks

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 14:01:43

Bless you Clouds.wine grin

boombangalang Wed 10-Apr-13 18:55:29

Anybody paid attention to the news that Mp's today went back to Parliament early to sit about and 'talk' about Ms Thatcher and for that mark of paying respects they can claim up to 3,500 in expenses for them AND their families - you know because they had to go back early from their Easter breaks... Bless them, what a bloody inconvenience, having to get back to work early to talk about the passing of a past Prime Minister when still on Easter Break. A week or so after Easter anyhow and long, long after they stopped selling mini eggs in the giant packs in the shops - the latter upsets me as much as the expenses - I love mini eggs.

mrsjay Wed 10-Apr-13 19:00:40

bet they are all booking flights and trains as we type boom with their heartfelt sympathies read and hand out ready for the expenses hmm

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 19:10:40

boom grin

alphablock Wed 10-Apr-13 19:26:11

I can't help but wonder if Tony Blair will get a similar funeral in the future. After all he was in power for almost as long and divided opinion in a very similar way. What happens if David Cameron is re-elected and also lasts for a similar time period? Have the floodgates just opened and these type of funerals will become the norm?

It seems as though the decision making process needs to be reviewed as it doesn't sound as though anyone has ever come up with any rules on who should/shouldn't qualify.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 19:32:29

Alpha I don't think Blair will get the funeral, the derision however, will follow, just as it has with Thatcher.

As for who should/shouldn't qualify, I have no idea. Thatcher herself was against a state funeral, stating it would be divisive. I think (as I stated earlier somewhere around these boards) that that is the sole reason Gordon Brown opted for the state funeral!

boombangalang Wed 10-Apr-13 19:49:16

Margret Thatcher asked for a private family funeral, no pomp or procession - she asked to be buried next to her husband. I think I am correct in both those things, its certainly what I heard on he news yesterday... Whatever anybody's thoughts on her as a person or as a Prime Minister, those were her last wishes as she wanted them to be - both of them have been denied to her.
I am Welsh, I am a miners daughter - we lived opposite a mines rescue station also. We suffered dreadfully back then. I was 13 at the time it all started. I intensely distrust and dislike Tory politicians as a result and all the Tory cuts going on today only strengthen my distrust and dislike and she was, in my opinion, which is fueled by direct effects of her policies upon my family and I, the worst of the lot.
I would never, ever deny a person their last wishes - I can understand and agree on the no burial, the cremation because to see a vandalised grave, its so unkind on the family left behind. But it is also unkind on the family to know their mum can not be buried next to their dad, as she wanted.

alphablock what happens if Cameron is voted in again! My brain can't go there - it refuses, it starts screaming, 'No....' Over and over again... He wasn't voted in this time, technically, so lets hope everybody who failed to vote last time around actually does go and vote next time around?

If Tony Blair and Neil Kinnock to name but two can manage and find it in them to show respect via words at this point in time for somebody who has passed away then I think we all can learn a lesson from them and act with the same accord. The funeral is a waste of public money but it is happening. The lady in question was herself questionable but she is now dead. Neither one of those things is going to change.
Wednesday will be a dvd day here - no Tv, no news. If you do not like what is happening, ignore it do not go and disrupt a funeral. The person who is dead won't give a s**t - but her children and Grandchildren will be hurt. Its not their fault, none of it. Its the people left behind who hurt. Maggie Thatcher is sat somewhere with an expensive glass of port in hand not caring two buggers what the hell we do down here. She was still somebody's mum and somebody's Nan...

Pan Wed 10-Apr-13 19:57:59

boom - yes to all of that. I'm just pleased the whole circus will only last a week. Meanwhile people try to get on with their lives. The thought of another 4 yrs of Thatcher's drones isn't worth contemplating. As Billy Bragg said "don't celebrate, organise."
I've seen too many people die around me to have the slightest notion to admire funeral-disrupters. But I can see why on the day some civil disobedience, and a bit of criminal disobedience tbh, would be fine. Just as long as we all vote out the Condems at the first opportunity.

chris481 Wed 10-Apr-13 20:07:37

I think that Joe and Peter Haines may well disagree with you.
Not sure who they were, but if you meant Peter Hain, he's hardly in the same league as Helen Suzman as an opponent of Apartheid. More importantly, he was a Labour MP, so possibly a little less neutral on MT than a liberal parliamentarian from another country?

Apart from which Thatcher's 'grubby little terrorist' description of Mandela hardly does your stance credit, does it.

In fairness to Thatcher, the ANC was a terrorist organisation. Its aim was to overthrow the government, it had nowhere close to the military power to do so, so what "military action" it took, planting bombs, sometime in places where people would be killed, killing "collaborators" etc. could only have advanced their aims by instilling fear in various target populations. That's by definition terrorism.

In fairness to you, someone did have to point out to Thatcher that before Mandela went into prison, bombs had only been planted where they would destroy infrastructure rather than kill people.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 20:13:06

Yes, you're right on the spellling. It was a bad night last night.
However, before Peter was a Labour MP, he had 'left' South Africa and whilst an MP still had BOSS trying to frame him for bank robbery.

Dawndonna Wed 10-Apr-13 20:13:24

(Joe is his father).

chris481 Wed 10-Apr-13 20:15:51

A Marxist govt in Pretoria was never, ever a likelihood.

Eh?! The ANC and the SA Communist Party were at the very least deeply symbiotic. The (miracle) of the lack of communism is (I'd guess) due to a combination of the negotiated handover of power by whites, but more importantly the very recent and sudden collapse of the Soviet Union discrediting communism.

Pan Wed 10-Apr-13 20:17:49

Crumbs chris join the hamster on the fear-fantisist bench, please?

chris481 Wed 10-Apr-13 20:28:52

A Marxist govt in Pretoria was never, ever a likelihood. Even IF it was, SA would have been a democracy and so chose it's path of self-determination?

As for the second part, never heard the phrase "One man, one vote, once?" That describes what happened in half the world after de-colonialisation. How do you think today's Zimbabweans would feel to be told that everything's OK with their country because Mugabe was fairly elected 30-odd years ago?

Apart from Botswana, what other African countries were acceptably democratic and well-governed at the time Thatcher was in power? (I'm using "democratic" as the antithesis of communist because that's how things worked.)

(Apologies for any incoherence in this post, 3-year nagging me to play with her, I'm off.)

I do actually rather suspect that Cameron and co are gagging for a few riots on the day of the funeral, hence the fact that they are making such a big deal out of it. They want an excuse to demonize the poor even further and quite probably to bring in some additional repressive laws to keep the unwashed feral scum in their place.

Pan Wed 10-Apr-13 20:38:53

Sorry chris you're rambling again, with respect. SA and Zimbabwei are two quite different countries - differing political structures, different histories, differing wealth, differing ethnic make-ups. I'm afraid you haven't got past the fear thing to justify supporting racism, which MT did support.

Darkesteyes Wed 10-Apr-13 20:40:57

I agree Solid. If anyone protests they will say it was mainly poor/low waged/unemployed people who were protesting and use it against them in propaganda like they did with the Philpott case only one week ago.

boombangalang Wed 10-Apr-13 20:45:31

May I just say that the 3,500 pounds (my pound sign on laptop is broken!) Mp's can claim to go today to debate the passing of M Thatcher - I would like it all to go to Glenda Jackson. Please. Every penny of it... Outstanding she was - outstanding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtClJYJBj8

I still don't want to see riots at a funeral but the above was simply a class act and the way to do it if you want to object to Ms Thatcher...
Applause for Glenda Jackson.

boombangalang Wed 10-Apr-13 20:45:48
DontmindifIdo Wed 10-Apr-13 21:01:22

SGB - i think you are right, I also think they are enjoying the distraction for the left's anger over the cuts. the narrative of any protests and the media coverage is the anger at what Thatcher did all those years ago. If not, then there was always the chance this summer there would be protests over the cuts - that would be a direct challenge to the current government's policies. This will (hopefully for them) diffuse the anger at the cuts, making any protests being centred on old policies they have nothing to do with.

No one is talking about bedroom tax, universal credit, disability benefit changes anymore. We're all busy talking about a woman who left centre stage 23 years ago.

Darkesteyes Wed 10-Apr-13 21:03:40

Thankyou for the link boom.
I love Glenda Jackson. I grew up watching her films on tv and admire her as a politician.
It is someone like her who inspires me not someone like Thatcher.

boombangalang Wed 10-Apr-13 21:14:11

I disagree Dontmindifido There are a lot of people where I live comparing Maggie Thatcher's policies then with Cameron's today and getting rather cross about it all. As if they were not cross enough about the cuts to begin with, this is only adding fuel to their opinion that it happened then, it is happening again now.
In the cafe today where I go for my coffee - this is a little cafe - Oh okay, it was a truck stop, but they do nice takeaway coffee! There were people who were walking their dogs in the woods there and they go get coffee and bacon sarnies after - they were discussing how she sold off the social housing then for Tory's to return back to power and start to charge those lucky enough to be in a council house extra tax for a boxroom when they have nowhere else to move to as all the social housing has been sold off. It got quite heated, I was surprised as normally these are gentle folk who brave the cold to walk Gypsie or Ralph or whatever their dog's name is.
The fact everybody is talking about her now at a time where cuts in benefits are rife and actual benefit claimants not only have to wade through mud to claim anything at all but also get rotten fruit thrown at them by the general public for being a terrible scourge on society for daring to need benefit help in the first place - its not going down well here at all but then we are Welsh and the Tory's did hurt us badly. Its just that - I have heard people who normally are very accommodating and gentle speaking really, begin to get quite rattled and blunt and dare I say it, nasty about it all and it has got worse here since they announced the death and funeral of Ms T....

boombangalang Wed 10-Apr-13 21:15:16

Link is up on chat as well - I have been sat here in my kitchen for over an hour waiting for daughter to return home and shucks - no Eastenders tonight so I have been on MN!

I did read something on Facebook earlier (so may not be true) that the reason for the big-deal funeral is actually because she was a prime minister who won a war while in office (ie the Falklands) and hence the military aspect of the tribute.
If that's true I sort of agree, but then I did support that war, on the grounds that the Falkland Islanders were British subjects with the right to appeal to the UK when they were invaded.

Pan Wed 10-Apr-13 23:26:35

yes, SGB, but that isn;t the full story is it? The British govt had been trying to negotiate their way out of the Falklands for decades. It was more bother than it was worth.
<incidentally, it was never a 'war', it was an armed conflict, as the Tories would have been shown to have not met the basic requirements for a 'war' under the 2nd WW inspired Geneva Convention. So yes the fb ref. is not credible.>

doubleshotespresso Thu 11-Apr-13 00:36:51

amberleaf I'm in south London but will be staying home too! Drinking tea probably......and didn't know sipping latte was exclusive to Islington! I must update myself on the daft stereotypes on here......

DontmindifIdo Thu 11-Apr-13 08:40:23

Pan - to be fair, the whole mess that is Falklands and the big mistakes the Argintinans made (stupidly invading, effectively requiring some sort of response from the UK when they already knew if they had just done nothing for another 5-10 years they'd have been handed them without any loss of life) is a thread all by itself...

But yes, that's the excuse for the full funeral hoo ha.

Pan: Fair enough, I was 17 when the war was going on and not what you'd call politically astute. I mentioned it merely as a suggested reason for why Thatcher is supposed to be getting a bigger deal of a funeral than Heath, or Wilson or other former prime ministers who have died in the last 10/15 years.

AmberLeaf Thu 11-Apr-13 10:26:23

doubleshotespresso yep another tea glugging south Londoner here too!

This Mummy ain't yummy!

Dawndonna Thu 11-Apr-13 13:50:15

I'm a South Londoner, but moved away many years ago. I shall drink tea in solidarity! grin

doubleshotespresso Thu 11-Apr-13 14:57:39

Why thank-you Dawndonna, you are welcome anytime! Do you think these jungle drums about an further "party" on Saturday night will actually come to anything?

A few friends and business colleagues have been advised to close early on Saturday, I really hope it's not going to turn into a bloodbath.(this in both central and South London btw)

Dawndonna Thu 11-Apr-13 16:28:18

I supsect something may happen, the older generation is more engaged and more organised, the younger more disenfranchised, so between them...

chris481 Sun 14-Apr-13 18:05:07

According the "The Independent", Thatcher didn't call Mandela a terrorist.

She called Nelson Mandela a 'terrorist'

We have searched the record and spoken to one of her most recent biographers and can find no such comment. She did say, in answer to a question at a press conference at the 1987 Commonwealth Summit in Vancouver on reports that the ANC said they would target British firms: "This shows what a typical terrorist organisation it is." Also, she did not, as frequently maintained, say: "Anyone who thinks the ANC is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land." This is a misquoting of her spokesman, Bernard Ingham, who, when asked if the ANC might overthrow the white South African regime by force, replied: "It is cloud-cuckoo land for anyone to believe that could be done." There are plentiful records of Thatcher condemning apartheid; as far back as 1961 she was proposing a bill of rights for newly independent Commonwealth countries; and her government's efforts in lobbying for Mandela's release were crucial.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/10-things-you-thought-you-knew-about-margaret-thatchers-downing-street-years-8572023.html

Viviennemary Sun 14-Apr-13 18:55:19

I heard somebody say on a TV programme this morning that it's a celebration of the ruling classes. Never a truer word said. It's all about a display of power. Very bad I think.

edam Sun 14-Apr-13 19:25:27

Yeah, right, the backpedalling re. apartheid is astonishing. She spoke out against sanctions, Denis was doing business with the apartheid regime, and the charming Young Conservatives used to sing 'Hang Nelson Mandela' at party conferences (to the tune of Free Nelson Mandela). Tories poured scorn on anyone suggesting sports teams should NOT tour S Africa, objected to boycotts of S African produce and the police were hostile to those of us who protested outside S Africa House.

VerySmallSqueak Sun 14-Apr-13 19:36:30

I'll second that edam.

Us anti- apartheid protestors were definitely made out to be bad 'uns.
We were called rent a mob back then, and treated as 'subversives'.

EnlightenedOwl Sun 14-Apr-13 19:53:52

It seems to be quietly and conveniently forgotten that 264 pits closed between 1957 and 1963. Under Harold Wilson one pit closed every week.

1969 was the last year when coal accounted for more than half of Britain’s energy consumption. By 1970, when the Conservatives were elected, there were just 300 pits left – a fall of two thirds in 25 years.

All pre-MT

She was our to date only female PM and one of our longest serving. It is right that she has a full ceremonial funeral.

Lazyjaney Sun 14-Apr-13 19:58:54

There's been quite a few articles in various newspapers giving the hard facts about MTs reign, I think both sides are creating myths of their own.

That said I think this whole funeral is OTT and in bad taste, and will cause the Tories quite a lot of damage.

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