To think that Lady Thatcher was a great feminist icon

(96 Posts)
kitty1976 Mon 08-Apr-13 14:07:26

Sure some people don't like her but she was a great example of what can be achieved with determination in the very male dominated world of politics.

WilsonFrickett Mon 08-Apr-13 14:08:43

That doesn't make her a feminist icon. It just makes her an example of what can be achieved with determination in the very male dominated world of politics.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 08-Apr-13 14:09:24

She was a successful woman in a very male world, but not a feminist icon by any stretch.

twinkbat Mon 08-Apr-13 14:11:44

i do get what you are saying. As a girl growing up with a queen and a female PM i never thought i couldnt do something because I was just a girl IYKWIM. But i dont think a feminist icon in the true sense no.

ParadiseChick Mon 08-Apr-13 14:12:59

Absolutly not.

gordyslovesheep Mon 08-Apr-13 14:13:02

YABU

"I owe nothing to women's lib. The feminists hate me, don't they? And I don't blame them. For I hate feminism. It is poison." - Thatcher

joiemecconue Mon 08-Apr-13 14:13:42

Since when does acting like a man and not in women's best interests make someone a feminist?

AltogetherAndrews Mon 08-Apr-13 14:13:43

Um no. She succeeded in a male dominated world, sure, but led a government which vilified single mothers and trampled on the rights of the vulnerable. Not a feminist bone in her body.

shesariver Mon 08-Apr-13 14:15:19

She hated men and women equally, doesnt exactly make her a feminist.

lastSplash Mon 08-Apr-13 14:15:34

Hah, YABVVU

HoHoHoNoYouDont Mon 08-Apr-13 14:15:39

Just the same with Obama in a way being the first 'African American' president. Clears the way for others to do the same. People will aspire to be as successful in their careers and climb to the top.

timidviper Mon 08-Apr-13 14:17:52

Absolutely not. She achieved what she did by virtue of the fact that she married a multi-millionaire and was able to afford to pay for things. She then claimed that other women should be able to do the same whilst destroying any support for those who weren't married to millionaires.

Spitting Image didn't show her as more of a man than the men in the cabinet for no reason

Well then by that reckoning so were the women who were high up in the Third Reich and who were at the top of the Nazi party and in the camps.

Well then by that reckoning so were the women who were high up in the Third Reich and who were at the top of the Nazi party and in the camps.

LineRunner Mon 08-Apr-13 14:18:54

She was a throughly deluded, damaging and divisive figure. More an icon for the war criminal class than feminists, I think.

YABU. I agree with line.

I do feel uncomfortable with some of the vitriol directed at her, which sometimes is misogynistic. But that doesn't mean I have to admire her as a feminist, it just means that even bad people sometimes get targeted by misogynists just like good people.

YABU.

But AIBU for already being bored stiff with the whole subject of Thatcher only a few hours after the announcement?

<shrugs>

ComposHat Mon 08-Apr-13 14:22:50

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

kitty1976 Mon 08-Apr-13 14:23:14

As much as people don't like her, to speak of the Third Reich is frankly lazy and ridiculous. She proved what could be achieved with determination in a very male dominated world and as such should get some respect for that. At least she had beliefs which could not be said of other politicians. Do people dislike Tony Blair as much after he sent our troops to a phoney war?

SueDoku Mon 08-Apr-13 14:23:31

She was a woman who took pleasure in keeping other women down - and the person who engineered the destruction of the heavy industrial base of this country and caused the present housing crisis by selling off council houses. Sign petition here
https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/45966
if you oppose her being given a state funeral.

Or you could join with Mark Thomas and walk along the route singing 'Ding Dong the Witch is Dead'.......

WilsonFrickett Mon 08-Apr-13 14:25:36

Oh don't get me wrong, I hate Blair equally. At least with Thatcher, you always knew what you were getting.

Thing is, having strong beliefs, that's not always a good thing. It can blind you to other, better, ways of doing things. One definition of assertiveness is: as the facts change, I change my mind.

MrsBungle Mon 08-Apr-13 14:25:51

She is not a feminist icon to me, far from it.

joiemecconue Mon 08-Apr-13 14:26:39

In accordance with her own wishes she's not having a state funeral so I don't see the point of that petition!

Viviennemary Mon 08-Apr-13 14:27:20

She certainly wasn't. She married a rich man which made her entry into politics a lot easier in those days.

motherinferior Mon 08-Apr-13 14:27:47

"There is no such thing as Society."

The whole point of being a feminist is that you do believe in society, and that it needs to change.

HairyGrotter Mon 08-Apr-13 14:29:36

Phahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

No

VinegarTits Mon 08-Apr-13 14:31:09

Was she shite!

CloudsAndTrees Mon 08-Apr-13 14:31:47

I don't think she a feminist icon, but then I think a lot of feminism is bollocks, and I have a lot of respect for what Maggie Thatcher achieved.

YABU! She herself distanced herself from feminists. She was a fully signed up member of the oppressive patriarchy, she used her power to make things harder for women.

Being a woman does not make her a feminist any more than being a man stops you from being one.

rowtunda Mon 08-Apr-13 14:32:56

No she bloody wasn't - she did squat all for womens rights

Fargo86 Mon 08-Apr-13 14:35:55

She didn't give a fuck what people thought of her. That is what made her great.

KansasCityOctopus Mon 08-Apr-13 14:36:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AmberLeaf Mon 08-Apr-13 14:36:20

YABVU and clearly don't know much about her if you think that.

No. She wasn't a feminist. She was anti-women.

quoteunquote Mon 08-Apr-13 14:36:58

biscuit

Baroozer Mon 08-Apr-13 14:38:39

YABVU.

And I bet Thatcher would have said YABU too.

LineRunner Mon 08-Apr-13 14:39:33

At least she had beliefs which could not be said of other politicians

OP That has to be one of the daftest thiungs I've ever read on MN. And I've read some shite on here over the years.

GetLippie Mon 08-Apr-13 14:42:12

As somebody else has already quoted (but it bears repeating): "The feminists hate me, don't they? And I don't blame them. For I hate feminism. It is poison."

She is NOT a feminist icon. Just because she was female doesn't make her a feminist.

givemeaclue Mon 08-Apr-13 14:44:49

Yabu she did nothing for womens causes or feminism

She is not having a state funeral anyway so what is point of petition?

givemeaclue Mon 08-Apr-13 14:46:03

Thatch will be turning in her coffin at the idea she was a feminist

KansasCityOctopus Mon 08-Apr-13 14:46:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

givemeaclue Mon 08-Apr-13 14:48:27

And yes, people do dislike Blair "as much" after the war. Its not a competition as to was worse. To describe thatch as a feminist icon is hilarious!

DreamingofSummer Mon 08-Apr-13 14:48:32

The best comment I ever heard about her was...

"She betrayed her sex on behalf of her class"

perfect nine words

SuffolkNWhat Mon 08-Apr-13 14:48:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

givemeaclue Mon 08-Apr-13 14:51:27

Op , do you stand corrected?

IronOrchid Mon 08-Apr-13 14:54:54

Um, no. Really. No.

Feminist icon! Are you having a laugh? hmm She was about as much as feminist as fucking Hitler was! FFS!

Fargo86 Mon 08-Apr-13 14:57:08

You don't have to be a feminist to be a feminist icon.

ComposHat Mon 08-Apr-13 15:05:08

You don't have to be a feminist to be a feminist icon

true, but it does help if you don't hold womankind in utter contempt.

IronOrchid Mon 08-Apr-13 15:05:24

But putting down a group that stands for womens rights is decidedly anti-feminist. I say that disqualifies any 'feminist icon' status.

motherinferior Mon 08-Apr-13 15:08:06

I think you do have to be a feminist to be a feminist icon, actually. What with the word being feminist and all.

Which she wasn't. Obviously.

motherinferior Mon 08-Apr-13 15:08:24

Name me three non-feminists who are feminist icons...

ReluctantBeing Mon 08-Apr-13 15:10:17

She did what she wanted, and that makes her admirable in my eyes. I don't have to agree with what she did to admire her determination.

Mary Berr, MI, according to recent report.

Can't help you with the other two.

*Berry, even.

motherinferior Mon 08-Apr-13 15:12:59

Doing What You Want is not necessarily an admirable trait. See Hitler, Pinochet, Franco...being determined is only a good thing if you are determined upon a good thing. If you are pig-headedly pursuing Wrongdoing this is not admirable.

wigglesrock Mon 08-Apr-13 15:13:23

See this is what I don't get, I despise Margaret Thatcher, I don't wish her dead but I personally can't think of a single redeeming factor regarding her. I'm pushing 40 and from NI so my view may be slightly coloured, I don't get why the fact that she was a woman should give her any more respect than if she were a man.

She held some contemptible views regardless of her gender .

tethersend Mon 08-Apr-13 15:14:21

Irrespective of whether you agree(d) with her policies or not, it is testament to the dire state of play WRT women's position in politics that Margaret Thatcher is hailed as a feminist icon by virtue of having a vagina.

She is held up as a feminist icon because she is the only female Prime Minister we have ever had. That in itself is a disgrace.

Fargo86 Mon 08-Apr-13 15:15:32

If she was a feminist, she wouldn't have become PM.

SuffolkNWhat Mon 08-Apr-13 15:19:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WaitingForMe Mon 08-Apr-13 15:38:32

You can be a feminist and a Tory!

I think she did a lot of good stuff and is unfairly vilified in many ways but I wouldn't call her a feminist icon. IMO she paved the way for just one woman - herself.

slug Mon 08-Apr-13 15:52:53

"Being a powerful woman does not make you a feminist."

True. But being a powerful women shows young girls that it is possible for them to be powerful too. Whatever you feel about Thatcher (and I'm foreign and didn't live here through the Thatcher years so I don't feel I can comment) she did provide a powerful role model for ambitious young women.

AmberLeaf Mon 08-Apr-13 16:21:27

Slug. Im british and grew up under Thatcher.

She was no role model for me.

Darkesteyes Mon 08-Apr-13 16:28:45

Im nearly 40 and i remember her minion Peter Lilley (under her leadership and bidding) making a very mysogynistic speech about single mothers only just stopping short of saying they should have kept their legs closed.
It was vile vile vile. She was NO feminist.

I'm British,I grew up under Thatcher, and whilst I may not have agreed with some of what came out of her mouth - she is the part of the reason I 'expect' the same opportunities being there for me, rather than being 'grateful' for the ones that are.

treas Mon 08-Apr-13 16:33:50

Well she did manage to achieve what she did without getting her breasts out - a few 'Female Icons' in the Music business could take note about that.

Respect het for that if nothing else

Ullena Mon 08-Apr-13 16:36:29

I hope she rests in peace. I liked and admired her greatly, and alzheimers is a horrible illness.

thewitchisdead Mon 08-Apr-13 16:39:57

"...she ain't no sister. She likes what macho, sexist, patriarchal men have always liked: war, the defence of the status quo, established power, entrenched inequality, heavily rigged individualist competition and absolute freedom. Not freedom as in emancipation, but the greedy savagery of an unregulated market in which man eats man and woman is neither seen nor heard."

Margaret Thatcher: a feminist icon? The best Thatcher-related joke I've heard all day.

MissAnnersley Mon 08-Apr-13 16:41:44

I disagree strongly OP.

YABVU, OP and somewhat deluded.

flatpackhamster Mon 08-Apr-13 16:50:39

Given the way modern feminism has become little more than far-left class war with the enemy being 'patriarchy' instead of 'aristocracy', I'm not surprised she wanted nothing to do with it.

She did what true feminists wouldn't - prove her superiority to the men around her by being better than them at everything they did. Truly inspiring, in a way that no Affirmative Action Programme could ever be.

Scrazy Mon 08-Apr-13 16:52:13

YABU, Iirc the CSA was after her time but I'm sure she wouldn't have stopped it and was involved in the planning. It cost the country more to administer than it collected of 'feckless fathers', tried to stigmatise a generation of children living with single parents (mainly mothers), damaged families and probably scared said 'feckless fathers' of having anything to do with their children.

WilsonFrickett Mon 08-Apr-13 16:58:29

So is feminism about being superior to men then flatpack?

Waspie Mon 08-Apr-13 16:59:26

YABVU. She is the antithesis of a feminist. She set the movement back by about 20 years. During the height of the unemployment crisis she told women not to work in order to leave jobs for men shock

Having said that she is one reason why I became such a staunch feminist, and have a hatred of discrimination and bullying in any form: I wanted to be the polar opposite of her.

motherinferior Mon 08-Apr-13 17:02:48

Yes. The one and only good thing about Thatcher Always Sticking By Her 'Principles' was that you knew what to oppose.

Mumcentreplus Mon 08-Apr-13 17:17:59

Sorry NO...

Thatcher, a feminist? Errrr no.

fluffiphlox Mon 08-Apr-13 17:26:45

Name one thing she did for women...

KJ007 Mon 08-Apr-13 18:30:39

Yes as you obviously know nothing about her, her policies or her politics. Try posting about something you have a clue about.

KJ007 Mon 08-Apr-13 18:33:51

Or feminism for that matter...

flatpackhamster Mon 08-Apr-13 18:48:29

WilsonFrickett

So is feminism about being superior to men then flatpack?

Way to miss the point.

Waspie

YABVU. She is the antithesis of a feminist. She set the movement back by about 20 years. During the height of the unemployment crisis she told women not to work in order to leave jobs for men shock

Really? Can you track down the quote for me?

LineRunner Mon 08-Apr-13 18:51:13

She got stabbed in the back in the end by the men in her Party, when she was told to pull out of the leadership race. She didn't see it coming. Delusions of grandeur to the bitter finale.

motherinferior Mon 08-Apr-13 18:58:53

Apparently she told the Liverpool Daily Post in 1974; I don't have the original quote but the Washington Post is pretty reputable.

WilsonFrickett Mon 08-Apr-13 19:01:28

Maybe you could clarify your point then flatpack?

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 08-Apr-13 19:06:26

YABU and obviously don't know very much about her.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 09:56:41

WilsonFrickett
Maybe you could clarify your point then flatpack?

Not only did she show women that there was no barrier to the top job in the country, she also showed men that a woman could do the job better than a man. The change of thinking that she engendered is twofold. Men no longer said 'A woman couldn't be Prime Minister'.

thermalsinapril Tue 09-Apr-13 11:06:30

YABU. Being a woman does not make someone a feminist.

She was the first PM with a vagina. Not a feminist.

I suppose you could argue that just being there showed that it was possible for women, but I think that's a pretty weak argument.

She certainly made it no easier for other women to follow in her footsteps. In some ways I think she may have made it harder.

WoTmania Tue 09-Apr-13 11:21:21

YABU - she was not a feminist, and definitely not a feminist icon.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 11:33:03

TeWiSavesTheDay

I suppose you could argue that just being there showed that it was possible for women, but I think that's a pretty weak argument.

The Australian PM disagrees with you. From The Telegraph:

Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard said she "changed history for women".

She said: “As a woman, I am admiring of her achievements becoming the first woman to lead the United Kingdom, the first female prime minister there. Many around the world will be reflecting upon her life and times today, as is appropriate with the loss of such a significant figure.

"For women around the world, they will be reflecting on the loss of a woman who showed a new way forward for women and a way into leadership."

She certainly made it no easier for other women to follow in her footsteps. In some ways I think she may have made it harder.

Well, we could count the number of female leaders before she came to power, and the number after, and see whether that stacks up. Who should we get to do the counting? Merkel? Gillard? There's a list on Wikipedia of female heads of state. Putting aside the appointed (non-elected)ones ISTM that the overwhelming majority of them came to power after MT.

On that basis alone it's hard to argue that she made it harder.

WilsonFrickett Tue 09-Apr-13 17:24:33

WilsonFrickett
Maybe you could clarify your point then flatpack?

Not only did she show women that there was no barrier to the top job in the country, she also showed men that a woman could do the job better than a man. The change of thinking that she engendered is twofold. Men no longer said 'A woman couldn't be Prime Minister'.

Right. Well, I would disagree she showed men that a woman could do a job better than a man, because I think she was a terrible PM. That has nothing to do with her gender however, she was simply a terrible PM IMO.

And the fact people no longer said 'a woman couldn't be PM' still doesn't make her a feminist icon.

flatpackhamster Tue 09-Apr-13 18:57:04

WilsonFrickett

Right. Well, I would disagree she showed men that a woman could do a job better than a man, because I think she was a terrible PM. That has nothing to do with her gender however, she was simply a terrible PM IMO.

That is your opinion, of course. But the point still stands. Suddenly, men no longer said 'A woman couldn't do that job' - because she could, and did. I recognise that a significant minority of the population don't like her but it should be possible to object to someone's politics and yet recognise their ability. I loathe Gordon Brown. I think the man's a monster. But I can admire his political ability even if I think his treatment of people was vile and is politics monstrous.

And the fact people no longer said 'a woman couldn't be PM' still doesn't make her a feminist icon.

I think that points to a problem with the exclusivity of feminism, since it is so socialist in its construct that it is ideologically incapable of recognising her ability. She overcame relentless sexism and constant low-grade abuse about her common roots from wealthy, privileged men. She changed people's perceptions about what a woman could do.

Blistory Tue 09-Apr-13 19:40:30

I consider her a feminist icon. Not a feminist but a strong woman who had to prove her worth simply because she was a woman in a man's world.

As a woman, regardless of her politics, she showed me that it was normal for a woman to have the top job, to be strong, to be principled, to be listened to, to be influential, to be respected both domestically and on the world stage.

She had to earn the respect that was so readily handed to her male counterparts. She had to be better than them. She trod a lonely path at times and didn't let it diminish her or her beliefs.

In achieving what she did, she gave me a belief in what women were truly capable of, despite the odds.

Vev Tue 09-Apr-13 19:54:12

YABVU. She was an icon of nothing.

babyradio Tue 09-Apr-13 20:35:47

The only thing she taught me is that to be successful in a 'mans world' you have to behave like a man. Being a woman does NOT make you a feminist.

Someone said to me yesterday that "the real iron ladies are all the women who kept their homes and families together when their men lost their jobs and their hope". Not sure if it's their own words or they read it somewhere but up here in the North the mood is fairly unified really.

The 'grocers daughter' angle is rhetoric, too. Her family were not poor, and she married a rich man who supported her. Her Oxford cronies are the reason she got into politics.

halcyondays Tue 09-Apr-13 21:02:17

Yabu

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