to be surprised so few have signed?

(56 Posts)
Flojobunny Sun 07-Apr-13 11:01:52

Just signed the 'Justice for Jade' e-petition.
If it reaches 100,000 signature, they can discuss it in parliament.
Surprised to find only 2,000 or so votes.
It is to change the law so people can be prosecuted if their dog attacks on private property.
Is this not important?

shellbu Sun 07-Apr-13 11:32:08

i would not sign this .

squeakytoy Sun 07-Apr-13 11:32:42

If someone broke into my house I would WANT my dog to attack them. (He wouldnt, he would either hide or roll over and want a tickle on his belly).

I know that wasnt the case with Jade, but where do you differentiate. This was a rare incident. It is not something that happens regularly which is why it made such headline news. It was very tragic, no denying that.

expatinscotland Sun 07-Apr-13 11:34:38

I would not have allowed my child to be in that house.

If you annoy a dog in it's own house and it attacks you then it is your fault. Dogs don't just attack for no reason with no warning. I hope this doesn't become law.

HollyBerryBush Sun 07-Apr-13 11:36:54

Certain premises have guard dogs. By removing that right you give carte blanche to burglars and the like on industrial sites and factories.

The problem is with the owners, not the dogs.

Sirzy Sun 07-Apr-13 11:37:34

Its a hard one, if the dog was on private property it makes the whole situation tricker. Apparently the owners weren't in the house at the time? (according to one report I had heard?)

I do think their needs to be more regulation of dog owners but when things happens on private property then it makes things harder.

nkf Sun 07-Apr-13 11:37:42

If you annoy a dog in it's own house and it attacks you then it is your fault.

Seriously?

Trills Sun 07-Apr-13 11:38:04

If you want to encourage more people to sign a petition you'd do well to:
1 - tell us what it is actually about
2 - link to it
3 - make some reference to it in the title of your thread

xxDebstarxx Sun 07-Apr-13 12:00:22

According to this article the majority of fatal dog attacks occur when the dog's owner is not present.

I think people especially children need to be made aware of how to act around dogs that aren't their own, are in their (the dog) own home, and who are away from their owner.

stressyBessy22 Sun 07-Apr-13 12:18:12

I'll sign!
But I am nor sure that it is true about the owners not being able to be prosecuted.I read that the police involved had categorically denied that any decision had been made about whether or not to prosecute.

stressyBessy22 Sun 07-Apr-13 12:18:43

..and a link to the petition would be useful!!

TidyDancer Sun 07-Apr-13 12:21:03

I would not sign this petition for reasons already given by others on the thread, and I hope it does not become law.

nkf Sun 07-Apr-13 12:24:56

I think people should train their dogs properly. There are too many careless owners.

yousankmybattleship Sun 07-Apr-13 12:26:34

I will not sign. Others have said why and I agree.

chris481 Sun 07-Apr-13 12:38:57

Dogs don't just attack for no reason with no warning.

Being in the vicinity of their territory is enough reason for some dogs, and the fact they may "warn" you by barking or chasing you before they bite doesn't necessarily mean you can get away.

As a child I was quite good at dog psychology, the only time I can remember being bitten was when an Alsatian chased my bike as I was riding past his house and I couldn't stop fast enough to deal with him.

Dealing with dogs means using dog psychology gained by experience. Look into his eyes briefly and admonish firmly but unagressively, then look away and walk slowly on, turn and repeat a few times until they stop following you. This is in the street: you shouldn't be in a home/garden that contains an aggressive dog in the first place, if the owner isn't there.

The looking away I learned from something I read as a child: if you stare to long you will come across as challenging/aggressive, which will provoke them.

The non-aggressive tone and the turning away (while keeping watch out of the corner of your eye) helps to convey that you regard him as an irritation rather than a threat. If he thinks you're not afraid him of he is discouraged from attacking.

Wouldn't want to try my dog psychology on todays pit bulls though - that sort of dog and the type of person who keeps them were not around when I was growing up.

Theicingontop Sun 07-Apr-13 12:53:24

I remember once when I was a child, getting nipped on the ankle by my mother's black labrador. I was tickling his belly, he growled, I didn't listen, he bit.

I understand the love you can have for a dog, I loved my childhood dog, he was my best friend - but I knew that he could potentially at any time, bite me if I pissed him off. You have to remember that they're animals and stay alert, no matter how much love there is.

The owners left the girl alone with their four dogs. It was a mistake, but one I doubt they knew they were making. Who would consider something like that could happen? It can be avoided by owners reminding themselves that dogs aren't harmless just because they love them, and they've never bitten before.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 07-Apr-13 12:57:25

Not signing; ditto the reasons given above.

anklebitersmum Sun 07-Apr-13 13:01:25

When will people finally realise that you can not legislate for morons?

Those that don't care, won't do as they're told because they don't care. Regardless of what you threaten them with legally.

The majority of dog owners are responsible, train properly, do not treat their dogs cruelly and are always aware of the potential of any animal to be unpredictable.

I have a fantastic, family dog who is marvellous with both my children, friends children, children who come over and random people outside the home who usually ask to pet him, other dogs and even next-door's cat. He is a well looked after, well trained dog who is a member of our family.

If someone is in my home with my permission they have no reason to fear my dog. However, if they are in my home without permission then I should not fear prosecution.

mmmuffins Sun 07-Apr-13 13:06:03

I do not think people should be prosecuted for dog attacks on private property, so I will not sign the petition. I am very concerned that this would give a lot of power to trespassers.

currentbuns Sun 07-Apr-13 13:11:07

There are 3,500 signatures on the petition, not 2,000.
I am happy to sign it, although the petition is poorly worded, because I believe this subject warrants further debate.

Flojobunny Sun 07-Apr-13 14:33:10

The petition is worded by Jades dad, the fact he can form words in the first place humbles me.
For those who believe guard dogs should attack burglars, surely the law can account for that too? Surely the 'reasonable force' should come in to it as it would if it was the owner with a knife in their hand?
I would be devastated if my home got broke in to but I still don't think that warrants getting violently attacked. I believe dogs should be treated as part of your family not weapons to be used against burglars.

Flojobunny Sun 07-Apr-13 14:37:04

epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47845

Hope this works, never done it before. There are now 4,000 votes.
I'm surprised every postman, milkman and window cleaner hasnt signed it!

TidyDancer Sun 07-Apr-13 14:45:02

I sympathise with her family, of course I do, as I think everyone else does.

But with the greatest respect to them, I hope that petition goes nowhere near parliament and will not be encouraging anyone to sign it.

CloudsAndTrees Sun 07-Apr-13 14:45:16

I wouldn't sign it, because I don't agree that dog owners should be prosecuted if their dog attacks on private property.

However, I do support licensing, especially with regard to breeding, and I think more could be done to make owners responsible for training their dogs properly. I think a campaign targeting unscrupulous dog breeders would be a lot more successful.

rottentomatoes Sun 07-Apr-13 14:58:28

People who are worried about this leading to trespassers gaining power needn't worry as provision could be made in the law to account for this.

JulieBunnyMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 07-Apr-13 14:58:57

There is a section for petitions. wink Maybe your thread will be happier in there, Flojo? smile

Flojobunny Sun 07-Apr-13 16:11:35

Oooops didnt know we had one of those HQ!
Not trying to encourage anyone to sign, just making people aware it is there if they want to and expressing my surprise that more people don't want to.
Though part of me wants more people to sign, because I just want something that might give that poor family comfort in this terrible time.
Having said that, I dont believe in violence on any level, and dont think it right the dogs are used as weapons in the misguided concept of 'guarding' property but I have never been broken in to so might feel differently, then again I've never been bitten by a dog either.

Flojobunny Sun 07-Apr-13 22:28:54

Up to 6,000+ votes now. Nowhere near enough. Perhaps people are worried the law won't account for trespassers.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Why was she on the property in the first place?

MousyMouse Sun 07-Apr-13 22:51:43

I have signed.
I think many things could be better with regards to dog ownership/responsibilities and this would be a good start.
worried dog owners could always take out insurance and/or train dogs better or get rid of a dog they cannot care adequately for.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

erowid Sun 07-Apr-13 23:10:34

I wouldn't sign it.

Sparklyblue Mon 08-Apr-13 00:03:33

I have signed.

HollaAtMeBaby Mon 08-Apr-13 07:36:25

I've signed.

But then, I bloody hate dogs. I'd happily sign a petition for the whole stinking lot of them to be wiped out altogether.

whokilleddannylatimer Mon 08-Apr-13 07:45:47

My problem with it is, my mums dog is the most placid ball of fluff but if someone broke into their house and attacked my mum he would go for them.

This law would mean they would be proscecuted for the dog defending them from that.

However I do think liscence and chipping and proscecuting in cases where neglect or lack of care or such can be shown should be brought in.

whokilleddannylatimer Mon 08-Apr-13 07:47:25

Quint she was visited her friend.

Verbalpunchbag Mon 08-Apr-13 07:57:16

People won't sign because they don't want to be held responsible for their dogs, it's their right to let their dog bite visitors to their home don't you know! I'll be signing it.

TheFallenNinja Mon 08-Apr-13 08:06:33

I wouldn't sign for 2 reasons

It want give anyone justice.

I've yet to see a knee jerk law that does what it intends.

HollyBerryBush Mon 08-Apr-13 08:08:34

People won't sign because they don't want to be held responsible for their dogs

I don't have a dog and I won't sign it.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Mimishimi Mon 08-Apr-13 08:16:47

I am not surprised. However, is it established that the dogs actually did belong to the owner of the property? I am sure there would be grounds for legal action if they did not. Why was Jade there by herself? We get packs of dogs in Australia. Sadly, there is no one breed where it's not possible for them to get in with the 'wrong crowd' ( and yes, they are usuallly teenage- in dog years- males ). We had to give away labrador once because he started attacking chickens with another dog, then a couple more joined them and they started attacking calves at a nearby dairy farm. M&D didn't believe it when the farmer first started telling them because he would come back clean in the early evening but once they knew for sure they were concerned he might have turned on us.

Verbalpunchbag Mon 08-Apr-13 08:19:45

Fallenninja, it's not a knee jerk reaction, the present dangerous dogs act is inadequate and there have been moves to change the law for some time now. Considering hospital admissions for dog attacks have increased by 500% in the last twenty years it seems something needs to be done to tackle irresponsible owners. There is no reason why trespassers can't be excluded from the law and responsible owners who have proper control over their animals should have nothing to fear.

HollyBerryBush Mon 08-Apr-13 08:22:27

To be very picky the petition is ill written and wishy washy, which is why most of these things fail.

Quote: ""We want to get the law changed to make dog owners accountable for their dogs at the moment the police have no powers to prosecute dog owners if their dog attacks somebody on private property we want that changed as well as regulating certain breads of dogs so they have a license and have the dog registered and micro chipped . this would give police the power to confiscate viscous dogs that are unlicensed and hopefully we can save other family's suffering like we have gone through"" unquote

These are statistically the top ten vicious dog breeds (by reported bites) in the UK - do you think any of these come under the petitions 'regulating certain breeds' ? Confiscate? and do what with it?

1.Dachshunds
2.Chihuahua
3.Jack Russell
4.Australian Cattle Dog
5.Cocker Spaniel
6.Beagle
7.Border Collie
8.Pit Bull Terrier
9.Great Dane
10.English Springer Spaniel

To be honest, I would sign anything that would promote responsible dog ownership one way or another, or give anybody real power to act in the face of dog owners not picking up dog poo, not keeping aggressive dogs on leaches, but I doubt this petition will achieve this.

Personally, I think most dogs are pests. (Due to their owners, I suppose)
I have lost count of dog owners laughing at their dogs nipping and jumping on my dc, saying "oh isnt he cute, he is so playful" There is nothing cute about a dog chasing a child, barking and nipping.

In fact, if there was a petition that allowed parents to carry paint guns to mark unfriendly dogs for dog wardens to put down, I would sign it!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Verbalpunchbag Mon 08-Apr-13 08:27:10

The purpose of the petition is to force a debate about the issue in parliament and hopefully prompt a change in the law, how the petition is worded isn't important.

Verbalpunchbag Mon 08-Apr-13 08:28:58

Beer, aren't most prosecutions retrospective? You can't really prosecute someone until the crime has been committed!

alarkthatcouldpray Mon 08-Apr-13 08:30:45

I took my neighbour a parcel I had taken in for her a couple of Christmases ago. 12yr old son opened door and their dog flew out at me. I was holding my six month old baby, retreated backwards, fell over a garden ornament and lay in the rockery with it snarling and growling over us both until I managed to escape. Thankfully it didn't bite. It was a terrifying experience. Had I or baby been injured I would have been furious to find out I was powerless to do anything about it.

Since then it has tried to snarl and snap when I'm getting out the car, sticking its nose in at me on one occasion. It also escaped one day and went for me as I stepped out my front door. I have to take my kids out to the car one at a time as I don't trust the door or its owners. My elder DD is aware of why we do this and is inevitably going to end up nervous of dogs which annoys me.

I am a GP and hate going to houses where people just let their dogs intimidate me trying to get out the car. I usually phone them and tell them to sort the dog out before I can do the home visit. I have been in the situation where the ill patient was bed bound and alone with a dog barking aggressively at me trying to open car door. Thankfully had a driver that day as doing ooh, he distracted the dog while I made for the door.

Do people really want others to feel this way on their property? Pretty sad if they do!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Nancy66 Mon 08-Apr-13 08:37:04

If you're going to go to the trouble to launch a petition which, presumably, you want hundreds of thousands of people to sign - then why would you not proof read the wording?

Yes, I know it's petty but the fact it's so badly written will put many off.

HollyBerryBush Mon 08-Apr-13 08:37:52

I fail to see what isn't already covered by DEFRA and the Dangerous Dogs Act

www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/dog-ownership/

I didn't know this - that there is free microchipping available to all dogs at present, with becoming compulsory in April 2016 along with registering the animal.

""All dogs will need to be microchipped by 6 April 2016. This will allow people and small businesses, such as breeders, to adapt to the new requirement. The legislative mechanism to introduce this measure will be by regulations under the Animal Welfare Act 2006.

From that date owners will need to have their dog microchipped and registered on one of the authorised commercial databases available; owners will have to register the details of any new owner before they sell or give the dog away. Any owner will have to keep their contact details up to date on the microchip databases.""

Again this is already in the pipeline:

Summary

Defra sought views on a proposed package of measures aimed at tackling irresponsible ownership of dogs. The main proposals:
•Extending the criminal offence of allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control to private property (where the dog has a right to be);
•Compulsory microchipping of dogs;
•Removing the need to seize and kennel all dogs where court proceeding are pending; and
•Increase the fee for placing a dog on the Index of Exempted Dogs

Verbalpunchbag Mon 08-Apr-13 08:43:28

Holly considering the glacial speed at which government often moves I don't see what harm a prod in the right direction from the public will do.

HollyBerryBush Mon 08-Apr-13 08:47:21

True, but that ^ is as the result of public consultation in April-June 2012.

So by my reckoning, within a year they already have free microchipping available to everyone, with it becoming compulsory in another 3 years - that is actually quite a speed

Sommink Mon 08-Apr-13 08:55:51

I was bitten by a dog. I wouldn't call myself attacked.

I was picking up stones and throwing them into a stream, a dog off its lead came over and tried to get the stone out of my hand. I still have the scars and it was very painful. Even if the dog isn't attacking what it can do to a small child is still dangerous and the effects can last a lifetime.

My daughter is terrified of dogs. When she was 2 four dogs off the lead ran up to her and jumped up at her. I picked her up so she was higher and they still jumped. Their owners didn't even bother to apologise. At 5 she would still run into the road if a dog came near her as she looks for any form of escape and you can physically see her pail.

I feel dogs of leads if a far bigger issue. Just because you are happy with your dog being off the lead and feel you have full recall doesn't mean everyone around you is happy, or that other dogs who are on their leads will be happy with a dog running up to them.

Sorry to go off topic.

I won't be signing the petition.

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