To think that SAHP's being called morally pernicious is jugely judgemental?

(76 Posts)
flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 10:57:50

Not trying to start a bun-fight (though it is AIBU) but is it ok for working parents to point the finger at SAHP's choices and question their morals?

do they?

AgentZigzag Sat 06-Apr-13 11:01:11

Who's said it?

FreudiansSlipper Sat 06-Apr-13 11:04:36

I have seen far more posts along the lines of well I want to bring up my own kids blah blah blah

I personally do not know anyone who looks down on sahm with young children, I know a few including myself who question why once children are at school they do not want to work or go back to education and/or have no desire other than to be a sahm

gorionine Sat 06-Apr-13 11:04:59

Where did you see that?

TheChaoGoesMu Sat 06-Apr-13 11:06:12

Where did you hear that?

AgentZigzag Sat 06-Apr-13 11:10:10

Googling it just brings up this thread and nothing else.

Not trying to start a bun fight my arse grin

flamin ?? Care to elaborate?

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 11:12:04

I've just been told that deciding to have a parent stay hat home is "morally pernicious" and wondered what others thought about this? I've done both, BTW, think both have advantages and disadvantages and it's all down to personal choice and no one has the right to judge what a family decides is best for its members.

HollyBerryBush Sat 06-Apr-13 11:14:00

Who told you? and in what context?

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 11:14:29

I'm sorry Zigzag - you think I am trying to start a bunfight? I really am interested in opinions. I do realise that it could be a sensitive subject but am hoping for a rational discussion without going down the line of who is better than whom and all that nonsense...

Well whoever said that sounds a bit of a dick, it's not unusual for one parent to look after the child/children they have surely?

PicaK Sat 06-Apr-13 11:14:58

causing harm or death to morals??!!

random. step away from whoever said that. quickly!

Mumsyblouse Sat 06-Apr-13 11:15:36

Who told you that? (if it's Xenia, I am not surprised!)

I don't think this is a common thing to say or to see on these boards, that's why I won't be discussing it.

AgentZigzag Sat 06-Apr-13 11:15:45

Who said it to you flamin?

It's an unusual conversation filler.

Just tell them 'both have advantages and disadvantages and it's all down to personal choice and no one has the right to judge what a family decides is best for its members'.

Or to fuck off, whatever suits.

HumphreyCobbler Sat 06-Apr-13 11:16:58

Whoever said that is being silly. It is not a view I have heard on here.

tilder Sat 06-Apr-13 11:17:13

Calling anybody morally pernicious is pretty offensive and certainly not justified for being a sahp.

I have been called similar for working despite having children. Tis a heated issue and a lot of people seem to think working or not working when you have children makes you fair game for all sorts of unpleasant comments. Is almost always aimed at women, often by women.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 11:17:14

Holly - in the context of whether a family choosing to have a SAHP is morally pernicious or not.

I currently am an SAHP, I personally don't think it is lazy or morally pernicious.

Casmama Sat 06-Apr-13 11:18:47

It's not judgemental it's total fucking nonsense and I will be amazed if you find anyone who says differently. I wouldn't give this a moments further thought.

CecilyP Sat 06-Apr-13 11:18:53

You still haven't really given the context, flamin.

HollyBerryBush Sat 06-Apr-13 11:19:26

But who said to you that it was morally pernicious?

BruthasTortoise Sat 06-Apr-13 11:21:17

I've personally seen much more judgement about WOHMs. The implication on SAHMs is that they may not contribute financially, the implications for WOHMs is that they don't love their children and are happy for someone else to raise them. I know which I would consider to be the harsher judgement.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 11:22:48

The person I was talking to feels that people who choose to stay at home are lazy and morally pernicious - I'm' not going to use someone's name on the internet, I don't think that's really relevant. They work, hard by the sounds of it, but I don't feel that gives them the right to judge someone who is in a family situation where one parent can stay at home and chooses to do so because they feel it is doing the right thing for their children.

who told you this OP?

I don't think I know what morally pernicious MEANS [puzzled face]

pernicious means harmful, wicked; it's obvs not a compliment, arf

oh sorry x post

yes ok to say an acquaintance/friend/relative or whatever rather than give their identity

well I say you should give this person the Order Of The Boot

unless of course you are in your turn giving out about the perils of not Being At Home for your children and Why Have Them.

jellybeans Sat 06-Apr-13 11:28:36

I personally don't care what people say. I am a SAHP. I may though wonder if they are happy with their own choices..

AgentZigzag Sat 06-Apr-13 11:28:47

You don't have to name them or anything! grin

It's more to do with what the person is to you (family/friend/work colleague) and what kind of situation it came up in.

Also what are they like normally, if they're a total twat most of the time and you couldn't give a monkeys what they think then ignore it, if it's your mum and you don't want to fall out with her then you could perhaps talk to her a bit more about why she thinks this about you.

It sounds more like an essay or research than the words used in normal everyday conversation in RL tbh.

HollyBerryBush Sat 06-Apr-13 11:29:46

>pssst< is this a benefits by stealth thread?

BabyMakesTheBellyGoRound Sat 06-Apr-13 11:31:35

Well I've never heard it said and I don't really have enough energy to be judgy about other peoples choice whether to work or SAHP.

MrsLouisTheroux Sat 06-Apr-13 11:32:29

is it ok for working parents to point the finger at SAHP's choices and question their morals? No and it's not ok for SAHP to accuse WP of neglecting their responsibilities towards their DC and question their morals.
Both ideas are idiotic.

seeker Sat 06-Apr-13 11:32:36

I honestly don't think it's possible to comment on the OP unless we have more information. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind, or anyone who's opinion is worth giving 2 second's headspace to saying that being a SAHM is "morally pernicious".

So- a non debate. There are debated to be had, but not this one. Whoever said it is not worth considering for a second.

currentbuns Sat 06-Apr-13 11:32:56

I tend to find that SAHPs are more likely to muscle in on "moral" high ground.

AgentZigzag Sat 06-Apr-13 11:33:19

I can just imagine them being next on the governments shit list Holly, I wouldn't put it past them to try and link SAHPs to benefits which they just happened to have linked to mass child murderers.

The ultimate offensive parenting stereotype.

lljkk Sat 06-Apr-13 11:33:42

Was it on the back of very currently fashionable Benefits-Bashing, OP, was it in that context? Or something more abstract & principled?

Xenia takes roughly same view, Flamin, it isn't at all foreign to MN. Cherie Booth Blair said something similar although perhaps only for well-educated women like herself. hmm.

The argument goes that personal is the political so being a SAHM is setting the wrong example to your children especially and to society in general (wrong example about women & mothers, not about any other sort of person).

The point of each person's existence is to make a political statement. Who knew? And here I thought I had free will. Or is the modern political like old religion, you only have free will to damn yourself.


flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 11:35:37

Holly - benefits by stealth thread? Do you mean illegally claiming benefits? No, it's a thread about whether or not it's ok to call SAHP's lazy and morally pernicious.

Perhaps I should have started this somewhere else, I get the feeling people are used to posts actually not being what they are about here. I'm a bit confused.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 11:39:48

I was just very taken aback that someone would make such a a sweeping statement. How can someone possibly know something like that just from he fact of knowing someone is a SAHP? How can someone possibly know that a family having both parents working are neglecting their children? Why do people feel the need to judge such choices?

stepawayfromthescreen Sat 06-Apr-13 11:39:56

I always assume that wohm's who question my choices are unhappy with their own. Otherwise why would they give a fuck?
It's interesting that on Mumsnet, it's an elite bunch of same old posters who bang the anti sahm drum. The time they have to dedicate towards questioning sahm's and what they do/how they feel, is unnerving and underlines their discontent.

AgentZigzag Sat 06-Apr-13 11:42:18

It's because usually people starting threads are more concerned about who said what and why, rather than just the substance of what was said flamin.

Nothing's said in a vacuum, and posters like to know the nitty gritty of the situation it's come up in because we're nosey buggers we know that's where the crux of the problem usually lies.

Nothing to do with it being AIBU.

HollyBerryBush Sat 06-Apr-13 11:49:10

Benefits by stealth bashing - one parent working on min wage, other at home, thus receiving benefits therefore the SAHP should be out working too.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 11:51:17

Cherie Blair said something similar? Never really took much notice of her anyway...

I don't often go much further than the relationships and childbirth boards most of the time so haven't really come across discussions such as SAHP/Working Parent and the pros and cons of both aspects. In my own personal life I've never really come across discussions like that either - I have friends who stay at home and I have friends who work and it's never really a topic of conversation....except along the lines from a couple of working friends who feel they're still expected to do almost everything when they come home as well as work while their partners use working as an excuse to not do anything when they come home...but that's a different topic.

I did see something on the MN front page about SAHP and something to do with the government possibly diminishing their role or something and then coming across that comment today made me think that there is an us and them type issue then...

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 11:58:41

Oh Holly, I see...had no idea that was a popular topic of conversation either...

Zigag - the SAHP comment wasn't really the actually nitty gritty of the conversation, which is to do with who is and isn't deserving of benefits, it was just thrown in there.

FarBetterNow Sat 06-Apr-13 11:59:58

Cherie Blair has no moral compass anyway.
IMO she is a nutter - she went back to work within days of giving birth by CS in 1988.

Maybe she needed the money!

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 06-Apr-13 12:00:58

I bet you were hoping it was a benefits thread holly wink

sleepyhead Sat 06-Apr-13 12:05:40

My friend's "friend" told me, as we sat drinking coffee at a playgroup, that working mothers shouldn't have children as they weren't willing to bring them up (I was on mat leave at the time) and were stunting their emotional development and thus ruining society.

I just thought she was a wanker and didn't give it any more headspace <shrug>

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 12:32:09

Wow, sleepyhead.

Pagwatch Sat 06-Apr-13 12:52:10

Op, I think the person you were talking to is simply an arse.

When an arse says ome thing in RL I tend to say 'oh dear god, what an arse you are' or say 'isn't it a lovely morning. Anyways I have things to do'

I wouldn't assume that the arse was presenting a commonly held view and fret about it.

RubyrooUK Sat 06-Apr-13 12:55:16

I think people should generally avoid calling each other morally pernicious. It seems an entirely OTT comment about a perfectly normal and often very sensible way for a family to set up their existence/finances/childcare situation.

I happen to be a full time working parent as my own personal circumstances dictate this. I would also think it's OTT to call that morally pernicious as it happens to be the situation most appropriate for my family.

I can't see how either situation could be morally pernicious really.

RubyrooUK Sat 06-Apr-13 12:56:23

Pagwatch put across the most reasonable point of view in a lot less words than me. grin

Viviennemary Sat 06-Apr-13 12:58:15

I don't even know what it means. But it doesn't exactly sound complementary. grin

blueberryupsidedown Sat 06-Apr-13 12:59:22

I don't even know what pernicious means. As a sahm I've been called lots of things, including disorganised, lazy and old fashion, oh and a 'housewife' but never pernicious...

janey68 Sat 06-Apr-13 13:05:56

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

currentbuns Sat 06-Apr-13 13:08:59

Pointless thread.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 13:13:11

Janey I can assure you that that has indeed been said to me, I'm not the kind of person who just likes to go around starting fights for the fun of it - doesn't sound like much fun to me at all.

I'd just never come across judgements like that - ever - amongst all my friends who work/don't work and who socialise together.

I was just looking for others opinions - but thank you for suggesting I'm stupid.

Current, sorry you think my wondering was pointless. I didn't think it was.

janey68 Sat 06-Apr-13 13:19:51

Well if you have never come across that view before, surely that fact in itself tells you it's not a commonly held opinion....

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 13:24:26

Not necessarily - I thought to myself that that might be the case....or maybe I lead too sheltered a life - it's not like I have a huge circle of acquaintances and many of my friends are from a different culture. The friends I have in the UK are an extremely small circle. So, with this in mind, I thought I'd ask the question to a wider sample of the population.

I don't see what is wrong with that.

FanjoForTheMammaries Sat 06-Apr-13 13:58:09

Morally pernicious=mick phillpott

SAHM= someone who has kids and doesn't work.

ouryve Sat 06-Apr-13 14:01:44

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Goldenbear Sat 06-Apr-13 14:05:22

Another SAH thread.

No it is not morally pernicious. My SAH role has not being prescribed by my DP, it was MY 'choice' and goes someway to equalising the status of that role in my personal set up. Equally, my role is more concerned with the development of my children than with domestic drudgery- again demonstrating to my DC an equality in the roles.

At a broader level I don't want to have to forgo the personal choices described above to reduce inequalities within society. Any society that judges me as morally pernicious for not making huge personal sacrifices personally, is one that is just as oppressive to women as a patriarchal one that allows men to prescribe a woman's role in the home. I don't want to achieve financial independence and career security by emulating men, I want to find a new way.

maddening Sat 06-Apr-13 14:05:59

how do you know this person? How did the conversation come about? I agree more context is needed.

also I don't think this is a widely held view and it depends on how the conversation came about as to whether your friend was unreasonable - they can hold whatever view they like but may or may not bu depending on how this was expressed and in what context.

CheCazzo Sat 06-Apr-13 14:22:29

I've met thousands of people and I have some wonderful memories Oh no, wait, slipped into Michael Parkinson there for a minute. Where was I? Oh yes. I've been alive for at least 300 years and I've heard plenty of shite in my time, but "morally pernicious" has gone right to the top of the list. It doesn't even mean anything does it? Pernicious is an adjective which does not lend itself to being tagged onto an adverb.
Did we find out yet who said it? I lost the will to live some time back.
I agree with whoever said this is goady.

Roseformeplease Sat 06-Apr-13 14:33:25

I am getting a bit fed up of threads being started, perhaps (and I say perhaps, deliberately) in all innocence,looking for opinions. What then happens is people pile in with a sort of, "Here we go again.." The implication being that this subject has been done to death.

People, myself included, may not have had this debate before because it is not something they have been faced with. They may also be relatively new to Mumsnet and so are not aware of the preponderance of these threads. Until I found this site I was unaware of the levels of anger about things such as SAHM, parent and child spaces, party invitations or disabled v pushchairs on buses. I have learned a lot. However, someone is allowed to start a thread and, if you don't like it, or the subject bores you, then step away from the thread.

seeker Sat 06-Apr-13 14:44:17

Flaming- I just think that there is an important debate to be had around this subject, and the views of somebody who is obviously barking mad don't have a place in that debate. All anyone can say is "this is a wildly extreme and unreasonable thing to say, and is, as far as any of us can say, unique to the person who said it to you". There's nowhere to go from there, really, is there?

ubik Sat 06-Apr-13 14:50:59

"am hoping for a rational discussion without going down the line of who is better than whom"

Well good luck with that...

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 14:58:30

Right, ok, sorry, I've obviously created some sort of offended thing here. It wasn't my intention, I really did just want to see what others thought. I don't appreciate the "don't be stupid, dear" tone I got from one person, nor the suggestion that I might just be trying to cause trouble (I'm not a troll). I was taken aback, I'm not going to name people, I did say it was in relation to a conversation about those who deserve/don't deserve help from benefits and that this opinion was suddenly thrown in. I hardly ever come on AIBU so don't know if there are lots of threads about this or not (I suppose |I should have turned off my "stupid" neurone and gone and just searched.

I simply thought it was a pretty awful thing to say and very judgemental but since I'd not really ever come across it thought I'd see what other people thought. My intention was not to goad (again, accusing me of trolling without actually saying it). I guess basically, as I often do, I wanted to see if I was extremely off with my viewpoint and needed to rethink things or if it was the other way around.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 15:01:46

Oh and to those who added some interesting commentary, thank you.

lljkk Sat 06-Apr-13 15:07:06

I've never encountered it IRL either, Flamin. Just MN and the well-publicised comments by Cherie BB. I think most people are content to just put their heads down & get on with their own lives, don't have energy to worry about yours or mine as well.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Sat 06-Apr-13 15:10:09

It was on a thread on here, right? I've just seen it, though I forget where.

I just thought, pfft, right, whatever.

Also, you're supposed to challenge on the thread! and not start a thread about a thread. Slap on the wrist for you grin

Voodika Sat 06-Apr-13 15:13:46

Very large cream bun coming your way.....

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 15:18:03

Boulevard - it's not a thread about a thread is it? I thought a thread about a thread was posting a thread and saying - I want to talk about this thread. No I didn't, someone said to me that SAHP are morally pernicious and lazy and that comment had nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the thread - in fact, it was blatantly mudding the waters of the thread and going completely off how is that a thread about a thread.

Voodika...I'm not starting a bun fight...not throwing anything here....

maddening Sat 06-Apr-13 15:19:22

so was it in a two people debating the ins and outs of modern life? Were they playing devil's advocate?

I think that they can hold whatever view they like and in an open debate they can express that (politely as poss) - although if you are a sahm I would think that they would be unreasonable as a friend in particular to make such comments to you and while free to express them cannot expect doing so to not impact your opinion of them as a friend.

I am a sahm (until I start my new job soon) and couldn't care less that your friend judges me for taking time to spend with my son.

It was on the Daily Mail thread, posted by Xenia. For what it's worth, OP, I agree with you. I was shocked that someone could think that.

maddening Sat 06-Apr-13 15:31:18

but you get it both ends some suggest wohp are damaging their dc and those like the person the op talks about.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 15:33:50

Maddening, I'm sure you do. I should have titled the post to reflect both ends of the spectrum.

maddening Sat 06-Apr-13 15:37:34

at both ends of the spectrum are small minded idiots lacking compassion and empathy - they aren't representative of the general opinion so I wouldn't take it to heart - it says more about them than those that they judge.

flaminhoopsaloolah Sat 06-Apr-13 15:41:43

I meant the spectrum as in some families have a full time SAHP, some have a different arrangement combining working/SAHPing and some have parents who both work full time. On reflection the title should have reflected that and why are people so judgemental of those choices instead of it being SAHP.

My immediate thought was that this person is unpleasant and small minded, but since I'd never really discussed it with anyone it was worth asking opinions.

pointythings Sat 06-Apr-13 17:18:57

Blimey, I'd be shocked if someone said that to me. And I've always worked and put my children in nursery. I think the whole child benefit removal disaster is unfairly impacting parents where one chooses to stay at home with the children (and DH and I don't even get child benefit...).

To each their own, keep the judgey pants for the likes of Mick Philpott.

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