To think fertility is a completely unfair lottery

(119 Posts)
Dancingthroughthefire Thu 04-Apr-13 22:19:31

There's philpott breeding left right and centre and being the most horrific parent.

And then there's us, struggling to conceive. Been told dh is basically infertile and we will likely never conceive naturally.

Where is the justice? I know it is just luck and it shouldn't make me so angry but it's so unfair.

AnyFucker Thu 04-Apr-13 22:20:09

yannnnnnnnnnnbu

HollyBerryBush Thu 04-Apr-13 22:21:37

oh FFS ...can someone do a thread that doesn't contain the word 'philpott' ??

Ouchmyhead Thu 04-Apr-13 22:22:23

As someone who is also battling infertility; YANBU!

It's especially unfair when you have a complete shithead for a brother, who got two girls pregnant within 7 months. That was lovely news for my fiancé and I, who have been trying for nearly 3 years now!

Dancingthroughthefire Thu 04-Apr-13 22:22:34

Sorry...it was just him that came to mind.
However I often think it when reading or hearing about children who have been neglected or abused.

OliPocket Thu 04-Apr-13 22:23:15

YANBU about the unfairness

YABU to use the word 'breeding'.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Thu 04-Apr-13 22:23:47

Yanbu it is just luck, I got lucky and then shared that luck by donating eggs, my recipient had twins!

Fingers crossed for you op xxx

expatinscotland Thu 04-Apr-13 22:23:55

Life is an unfair lottery.

AnyFucker Thu 04-Apr-13 22:24:10

holly....no sympathy for OP, just annoyance for yourself ?

You could always hide the thread if you don't want to engage

PoppyWearer Thu 04-Apr-13 22:25:12

YANBU.

I hope you get there, OP, it took us 4 years but we did, against the odds.

YANBU.

Good luck.

TidyDancer Thu 04-Apr-13 22:27:57

I agree entirely with your sentiment OP. It's crap and unfair. sad

TabithaMcKitten Thu 04-Apr-13 22:30:00

YANBU - I feel the same way about childhood cancer. I couldn't have been happier with my two lovely boys and cherished every moment with them. Then one of them got cancer.

I'm lucky as he is going to just fine, but I get very angry at the massive families on 16 Kids and Counting - I only wanted two and one of those is seriously ill, why is it fair that they can just have endless children?!

SnowHOHOboarder Thu 04-Apr-13 22:31:04

I agree with expat totally.

Life is unfair. I got cancer at 26 which led to my infertility. A round of IVF later and one unexpected surprise and I now have 2 children. Anyone looking on from the outside who doesn't know me might think its come easily but it hasn't - the cancer shook my world, the IVF was gruelling both mentally and physically and my eldest DC was born extremely prematurely.

I hope it works out for you OP and everyone else on the thread who is struggling with infertility.

expat sad - you've said it.

havingamadmoment Thu 04-Apr-13 22:53:49

It isn't fair. I have 5 and so people probably look at me and chat about how easy I have it. One of the women in the school playground said after dc 5 was born that I found it as easy as shelling peas.

I have been pregnant 11 times to get those 5.

fuzzysnout Thu 04-Apr-13 22:54:39

So true expat flowers

soontobeburns Thu 04-Apr-13 23:00:32

I know YANBU. I feel sick everytime someone I know gets pregnant by accident or after only a month with a guy.

I have been trying for 3 years and like youOP been told it's unlikely due to OHs sperm count :-(

Though I feel such sympathy for khloe kardashian her sisters getting pregnant left, right and centre and she cant.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 04-Apr-13 23:03:18

Life is unfair about a lot of things, often far more damaging things than infertility. Bad things happen to good people all the time unfortunately.

Morloth Thu 04-Apr-13 23:03:55

As expat says.

Life isn't fair.

Fairness is an 'odd' idea when viewed over a world/historical level.

Shit happens.

It takes ONE sperm in the right place to make a baby.
It can take ONE germ in the wrong place to kill someone.
Nobody ever said life was fair (and if they did, they lied) but you can lie down and weep and moan at the injustice, or you can get on with whatever it is you do and not let it cripple you emotionally.
<insert suitably rousing quote here, OR, say fuck it and pour a large gin and put your red knickers on and go out dancing>

CherylTrole Thu 04-Apr-13 23:07:07

Yes it is unfair. Its one of those things where you have to wonder why.

AvrilPoisson Thu 04-Apr-13 23:12:44

It is a lottery, and so very sad for those that want to have children but can't. I had assumed friends of ours didn't want children, but I found out recently they've been trying for ages, and just cannot stay pg. I have no idea what to say to them, as most of our set have children, and it seems so unfair for them, they'd make wonderful parents too.

grovel Thu 04-Apr-13 23:18:58

YANBU.

Plan for no children (so think what you'll need to do to keep yourselves happy as a team).

Relax because you've got a plan.

Maybe conceive.

Sperm are fickle.

HesterShaw Thu 04-Apr-13 23:22:00

There is nothing fair in the world of fertility. Nothing at all.

NikkiLaLa Thu 04-Apr-13 23:25:16

YANBU I have one child who took 3 years to conceive and we have now been trying for a second for 4.5 years, it's incredibly unfair and it makes me feel sick when you see scumbags like them popping out children all over the place.

PariahHairy Thu 04-Apr-13 23:28:35

Unfortunately fertility is not a reward for being a good person, it's just life, biology. Hating people who can conceive though is utterly pointless and will make you bitter, they haven't appropriated the baby you were meant to have.

It's why I hate that "What's for you won't pass you by" quote, erm that is patently fucking bollocks isn't it really. Oooh that person was raped and murdered, that was obviously "for" them, it certainly didn't pass them by hmm.

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Thu 04-Apr-13 23:29:41

Yes, unfair, so many things in life are.

hopefulgum Thu 04-Apr-13 23:36:16

Yep, it really is unfair. If only loving, deserving people could have children the world would be better place. Sadly it just doesn't work like that. I am sorry you are having difficulties. I hope you can have a baby of your own. Infertility is just sooo hard.

sydlexic Fri 05-Apr-13 00:13:28

Being pregnant when you have no desire to be or not being when it's everything you want causes much misery. That is life sadly.

Lilipaddle Fri 05-Apr-13 00:24:41

I always think this. My DD wasn't planned, I was on the pill and hadn't missed any but ended up pregnant, and yet I know a woman who has been struggling to conceive for 2 years. It seems so unfair that it's not equal for everyone.

I did read a story a while back about a fertility doctor advising to go "back to basics" and just have very quick, not pre-planned sex. Apparently he thought the stress of "trying" actually inhibited some of the hormones so on. Though you probably have heard all that already.

Wishing you the best of luck completing your family.

99problems Fri 05-Apr-13 00:32:08

sydlexic so true.

I cannot believe how my life experiences have been so entirely contradictory... Pregnant at 18 to a boy who basically ran off (we'd been together 18 months). I was devastated, petrified, did not want a baby but couldn't go ahead with an abortion - despite having that pill in my hand that would induce one. Followed by anxiety attacks for 9 months and wanting to die.

Fast forward, I adore my ds, and am with a dp who we found out cannot have children - zero sperm count. Zero. Again, devastated. Will never ever forget dp calling me with the results - I had heard of low sperm counts but literally no sperm?? Didn't imagine it in my worst nightmares.

Such is life.

icklemssunshine1 Fri 05-Apr-13 04:25:42

So true & so sad. To get to the gynae ward for my ERPC after my MC I had to go into maternity. Here I was greeted by a very young girl with a very swollen belly (obviously in labour sitting on a chair) & smoking. Life is unfair/everything happens for a reason ... doesn't make it easier. I wish you all the best OP.

GoshAnneGorilla Fri 05-Apr-13 04:44:33

Having previously worked on a neonatal unit, I can conclude that fertility is very unfair indeed.

Top tip: a serious drug habit and some prostitution appears to do wonders for the fertility of many women. Awful all round, I know.

OrangeFootedScrubfowl Fri 05-Apr-13 05:01:51

Nothing in life is 'fair', right from the start.
The parents you get - are they nice, the country you are born into, your health...

Like Morloth said - shit happens.

You'll feel worse if you become bitter focusing on what others have. Good luck with your plans. thanks

BabyMakesTheBellyGoRound Fri 05-Apr-13 08:34:24

My friend just had her third baby,anyone looking in would never know the heartache and loss that they went through to have those three. Life isn't fair.

crashdoll Fri 05-Apr-13 08:49:36

Life is very unfair. sad It's a lottery of luck and nothing to do if you are a 'good' or 'bad' person. As someone said, fertility is just biology - morality doesn't come into it.

thanks for you.

StickEmUpPunk Fri 05-Apr-13 09:28:39

I have to add to about life being unfair.
We have fertility problems on both sides, found out ages ago, then decided to not go down that route at all.
It is possible to be happy. I can think of alot worse things to go through, having been told all the worst things I can vouch that I feel this is actually at the bottom of my worries. Me personally.

I had a miscarriage and thought of all the women and men that actually lose born babies, at the range of ages life happens.

To be frank, I personally feel lucky it's all I had. Life can be alot worse.

This is only me, I don't speak for anyone else and don't ever profess that my outlook should apply to anyone else.

All I can say I am genuninly happy to leave the heartache behind.

Crawling Fri 05-Apr-13 09:36:55

Life isnt fair I may have caught for my 3 in the first month but I didnt want to develop a major mental illness in my teens. hHave two dc with sn one severe. We all have shit thrown at us from life. Even those who appear lucky.

Eskino Fri 05-Apr-13 09:40:15

Life isn't "fair" or "unfair". It just "is".

Cherriesarelovely Fri 05-Apr-13 09:49:47

yanbu at all. I spent yesterday comforting a sobbing, desperate, lovely friend whose latest round of ivf has failed. She is absolutely grief stricken. One of the things about fertility that is particularly hard is that there's no guaruntee no matter how hard you work at it or how much time you spend trying.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Fri 05-Apr-13 10:22:19

YANBU

I also feel the same way when I hear the occasionally of someone who has used abortion as contraception.

TroublesomeEx Fri 05-Apr-13 11:35:32

YANBU.

Latara Fri 05-Apr-13 11:43:57

YANBU it isn't fair at all.

One of my friends has been TTC for 2 years and it's very hard.

Another friend is having an early Menopause at just 37.

I could TTC except i have no partner... sometimes i'm tempted to just go for it in case i'm leaving it too late though.

EuroShaggleton Fri 05-Apr-13 12:20:48

YANBU. There's nothing fair about it. Biology is cruel. A couple of weeks ago, I stood in pain on the tube as I miscarried my long-awaited IVF baby, whilst being squashed by a pregnant women who spent the whole journey crying down the phone to a friend about what a tvvat her partner is. Mr Euro is a wonderful supportive husband and would be a wonderful dad, and yet it is the useless tvvat who was being discussed in that conversation that will get that gift. And no doubt wholly fail to appreciate what he has.

ChairOfTheBored Fri 05-Apr-13 14:35:44

Euro flowers

I'm so sorry. It is just so very shit isn't it.

FormerlyKnownAsPrincessChick Fri 05-Apr-13 14:45:05

YANBU. It isn't fair. It's fecking rubbish. I'm sorry you're going through it. It took us 3.5 years, 2 MCs, 1 CP and endless sleepless nights weeping into a pillow but I'm nearly there at 31 weeks now. Still stare in amazement at my big belly. It can happen. I hope it happens for you even against the odds. That goes for everyone out there desperate to have their baby. thanks

WMittens Fri 05-Apr-13 14:58:31

Expat said it.

I hope things do go your way, OP.

SmellieWellies Fri 05-Apr-13 15:30:26

YANBU. it really isn't fair.

thanks to everyone ttc.

CarpeVinum Fri 05-Apr-13 15:31:23

Its one of those things where you have to wonder why.

There is no why. It just is.

It's like a millionaire winning the lottery. Random number based draws result in random winners, who are not selected based on any criteria other than pure chance.

In almost every life there will be some rain before it is over. A tragic death, infertitlity, abaondonment, the onset of mental illness, awful diseases; conditions;illnesses;accidents changing lives dramtically, finantial issues so grave people feel crushed beneath them for their adult lifetime..and so on and so on and so on.

Very few people get an almost charmed life where nothing goes horribly wrong, there is no loss, grinding disappointment or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The rain can feel like a case of quasi deliberate water torture. Making an umbrella to help yourself cope and move forward with any solutions to hand is better rather than railing at the sky yelling "why me and not that ratbag"?

But we are human, so some shouting at the sky while pointing out another "undeserving" person who seemingly (and most unfairly) being better off is a pretty normal part of the process.

OP I'm really sorry you got this news. I hope at the very least you find a way to have the family you want via some other route.

seeminglyso Fri 05-Apr-13 15:41:27

There is no fairness, there is no justice, there is no god!

Its all just randomness.

Infertility is crushing and an everlasting grief for people. Some of the glib remarks here are evidence of the fact that it is a loss that is intangible to many and not really understood.

vintageclock Fri 05-Apr-13 15:46:54

I know how you feel. It seems terribly unfair when you see the ease with which some absolute rubbish parents conceive children and the absolute agony that other people, who would make brilliant parents, go through. I like to think God has his reasons, but yes it does seem very hard on some people.

Andro Fri 05-Apr-13 15:57:05

The worst part (IME) is the reaction of some other people to infertility. I've long since come to terms with the knowledge that I'll never be pregnant - I found out when I was very young - I have 2 adopted children who I love beyond words. What I don't need some smug woman telling me that I'm not a 'real woman', or that I can never be a 'proper wife' because of my inability to be pregnant!

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 05-Apr-13 15:59:08

Andro - do people say stuff like that? That is horrendous!

TroublesomeEx Fri 05-Apr-13 16:06:23

Andro It honestly wouldn't even occur to me to think that. That's horrible sad

However, I know a few people who've adopted after IVF etc hasn't been successful. I know that a few of them have been on the receiving end of "oh what a wonderful thing you are doing by adopting" type comments. They've said that really annoys them because, as they have said, it isn't a 'wonderful thing' they are doing, they wanted children. I suppose that's along similar smug lines, isn't it?

Andro Fri 05-Apr-13 16:07:12

Yes they do YellowandGreenandRedandBlue - the first was my own mother, the other I've had said to me several times by different women (one of whom actually followed up by suggesting to my DH that he should divorce me because of it).

ChairOfTheBored Fri 05-Apr-13 16:08:52

Bloody hell Andro that's awful. Adoption is an incredible thing - you may not be a biological mother, but that only makes your unconditional love for your children all the more fantastic.

I struggle enough to bite my tongue with the idiotic albeit well intended "just relax" and "my neighbour's cousin's window cleaner's cat polisher once knew someone who might have been infertile, they did it while humming the star spangled banner and fell pregnant - have you had to do that?". I think if anyone said to me what they say to you I may have to resort to violence.

I may not be fertile, but I can do feisty!

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue Fri 05-Apr-13 16:10:14

Well they are just wrong.

Andro Fri 05-Apr-13 16:10:26

FolkGirl - I've had the 'what a wonderful thing you're doing' comments about adopting, they've never bothered me because I think a lot of people genuine see adopting as something almost 'above and beyond' iykwim.

TroublesomeEx Fri 05-Apr-13 16:15:26

Mm maybe. I know it annoyed the people I know, but then I suppose in comparison to the cruel comments it's a lot better!

TSSDNCOP Fri 05-Apr-13 16:16:32

If I had a wish, it would be that hideous diseases only happened to really bad people. Imagine if we could off child cancer onto a bunch of murderers and rapists and child abusers.

I know that's stupid, but fuck it these fuckers must be good for something. It's just wrong that bad shit happens to good doodle whilst this lot live to a ripe old age.

TSSDNCOP Fri 05-Apr-13 16:18:07

Doodle?...PEOPLE grin

flowers for you Andro

These awful stories of shit luck and women dealt an unfair hand leave me wondering how organised religion still has a place in our society.

I am so shocked every time someone who I consider an intelligent realist reveals they believe in a God who creates life and responds to prayers. Watch the news ffs!

YANBU. But so many things are. Cancer is an unfair lottery, being born into poverty and starvation is an unfair lottery, being hit by a drink driver on your way home is an unfair lottery... etc etc etc.

That doesn't make it any easier though and I'm sorry people are struggling. sad

Religions that have faith in an interventionist God, particularly.

I agree MoreCrack.

Life is not fair or unfair. It just is. It wasn't meant to be 'good' all the time, it wasn't meant to be anything.

It is amazing that anyone believes in a God who is responsible for all of this when you look around the world at everything people are dealt.

And the Christian idea that their loving God only lets bad things happen to good people because he thinks they are strong enough to cope with it, or because he has a grand plan and needs to test them, is utterly ludicrous and laughable.

Life isn't fair. Nor was it meant to be.

Infertility and ttc and IVF are upseting, stressful, gruelling hardships, and it is sad that people have to go through those things, as well as all the other horrors that life can throw at people sad. But it just is. There is no reason, no explanation.

seeminglyso Fri 05-Apr-13 16:43:23

morecrackthanharlem ''I am so shocked every time someone who I consider an intelligent realist reveals they believe in a God who creates life and responds to prayers''.

God I feel the same...replace shock with utter disappointment

TreeLuLa Fri 05-Apr-13 16:45:29

YADNBU

SO sorry to hear of your struggle.

Took us 7 years and 5 miscarriages (one of twins) but we got there in the end and now have twins.

Very best of luck.

Sorry but I fucking hate these threads.

You might think it's unfair and about how you're feeling but do you ever stop to think that perhaps one of the children to those people you are angry about could be reading what you write and be bloody upset that yet another person is basically saying that they shouldn't exist as it's not fair to them?

Fucking sick of seeing posts and threads about how certain people shouldn't have kids, you're basically wishing that those kids don't exist!

ChairOfTheBored Fri 05-Apr-13 17:12:54

Schro - I don't think that's it at all.

People aren't saying these kids shouldn't exist (well I'm certainly not) but just reflecting that it can feel massively unfair that some people, possibly mostly those who perhaps don't meet our ideal of what parenting should be, seem to have kids despite then not really seeming to love or value them, while some people who desperately want children can have them at all.

A bit of a moan, that's all - certainly not expressing views that the kids shouldn't exist. And well, yeah, it's a bit self centred, but that's allowed sometimes isn't it? We can't all be brave face stoic soldiers all the time.

You also have to accept that it comes across as wishing these people couldn't have kids (and I have seen many times on here saying these people should abort or be sterilised) and that also means those kids not existing.

My Mother was as bad as the Phillipots, actually she was and is much worse but I am happy to be alive. If she couldn't have kids I wouldn't be here and when people get pissed off about people like her being able to have kids it cuts like a bloody knife.

ChairOfTheBored Fri 05-Apr-13 17:20:59

Schro - I accept it may come across that way, but it's certainly not intended to, not by me, I can't speak for others.

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that your own childhood may have been difficult. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't have been born just because your mum had failings.

I would never wish someone else didn't exist, certainly not a child. But then I don't think 'these people' should be sterilised either. I just want to be able to have children too. My jealousy is not reserved for a particular type of parent, just anyone who seems to find it 'easy' to get pregnant.

And yes, I admit that sometimes I look at those with big families, and wish they could share.

My childhood was pretty much fine as I grew up with my Paternal GP.

Funnily enough my Brother was left with them though and was also left in a house fire hmm, he is luckily alive. I know he would feel the same about this as well though.

I am sorry, I really am sympathetic, I have friends who are really struggling and I know how hard it can be. In my own experience, I fell pregnant for the first time shortly after starting investigations for not being able to, I realise how very lucky I am. I am not heartless, it's just this subject cuts like a knife. sad

"And yes, I admit that sometimes I look at those with big families, and wish they could share."

When it comes to my Mother, she technically did as a few have been adopted and I hear from my DB's SW that they are in very happy homes.

seeminglyso Fri 05-Apr-13 17:27:15

Its not saying now they exist they shouldnt exist but if they didnt exist in the first place there is no loss to anyone including them as they dont exist. Its a bit of an abstract point that has no relevance to the OP's post really.

EuroShaggleton Fri 05-Apr-13 17:28:35

Schro I don't think that is what people are saying.

If she couldn't have had children and you had been born to a loving, caring and supportive family instead, would you have thought that would have been "fairer" for you?

As several people have said though, there is no fairness in all this. Children are born into difficult homes and suffer. People who could have given those children loving homes and infertile and suffer. It's shyte for all.

BeaLola Fri 05-Apr-13 17:32:16

YANBU life is what it is .. random & it happens - the only guarantee is that you are born & that you will die

Yes in an ideal world Philpott etc would not exist/be able to have children but it is not ideal. in my day to day job I see so many women/young teenagers etc popping them out & not caring & I have had 5 mc.

HOWEVER I have a beautiful 5 year old DS who we adopted last year & whom I love & adore beyond reason. He is being really annoying today -cooped up in bad easter hols weather with poorly Mummy & yet he has still made me smile , laugh & my heart grow .

All the best to you OP - hope you get to feel as happy as I do

No, I wouldn't. I am happyish with who I am.

It's just there is posts on this thread even about women who have been seen smoking while pregnant, yes that's not good but would anyone really wish that they couldn't have children because of it?

It isn't fair that some people have so many problems, in an ideal world no one would.

fallon8 Fri 05-Apr-13 17:36:32

Ok..my hairdresser is 21...her boyfriend is 38. He has 5 children by different women,has had a vasectomy.she wants a baby too and therefore is eligible for treatment,why should I pay for that? Why can't he get a job ?

CarpeVinum Fri 05-Apr-13 17:39:38

why should I pay for that? Why can't he get a job ?

Right. Am now deeply confused.

Possibly in need of a cornetto so I up my blood sugar and things start to make sense again ?

expatinscotland Fri 05-Apr-13 17:43:29

What OMDB and Harlem said, there's no such thing as 'fairness', it's a useless concept when it comes to life. It just is.

MrsDeVere Fri 05-Apr-13 17:45:51

OP you have my utmost sympathies. You must be feeling dreadful right now. I sincerely hope you get the family you want, whatever path you take.

But please don't say 'breed'. Don't reduce those poor dead children to the level of drowned kittens. He also has living children who were also born, not bred.

Life is unfair. In so many, many ways. My DD should be at university. Not reduced to ashes in an urn in my living room. My OH shouldn't have MS and my DS should have been looked after and cherished by his birth mother. I have three other children too.

So I have been lucky to have five children in my life. Five beautiful children. My life is still pretty crap if I am honest.

But it would be much worse without my children so I wish you yours and hope you don't have to wait too long.

MiaowTheCat Fri 05-Apr-13 19:10:53

OP - it's shit, it really is... and there's nothing really anyone can say to make it feel less shit when it's at its shittest.

It drove me into depression and almost to the brink of suicide (and some of the twuntish comments other people have mentioned about how negatively you can be judged without children didn't help one jot either) and then by some utter fluke of sheer massive, epic, lottery-winning level of luck - things just happened after 6 years and three miscarried children (one singleton pregnancy, one twin) and we got one who stayed put for almost a full pregnancy (she came prematurely)... and then I got pregnant almost immediately after again - so all my dreams came true in a double-dose and I ended up with two children in just under the space of a year.

It doesn't mean I've ever forgotten how utterly shit it was when the hope was gone (we never ever got an answer as to why we couldn't conceive), or how hurtful it was getting the negative judging and comments over having no kids - and it doesn't mean I don't share your thoughts that it IS bloody unfair when people who don't look after or love their kids can have a seemingly endless procession of them.

HesterShaw Fri 05-Apr-13 19:43:48

So many sad stories on this thread. And so many strong women.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FarBetterNow Fri 05-Apr-13 20:29:00

Male and female fertility can be affected by mineral & vitamin deficiencies.
It is a scientific fact that foods have lower nutritional content than they had 50 years ago, so even eating a seemingly healthy diet may still result in nutitional deficiency.
There are many natural ways of increasing fertility and hormone levels, but unfortuneatly these don't make lots of money for IVF clinics.
I don't mean to offend anyone by stating this.
I have suffered infertility too many years ago and I remember the anguish it caused.

honeytea Fri 05-Apr-13 20:53:51

Unfortunatly life is an unfair lottery and all of us posting on this thread are winners in so many ways, we all have internet access, I assume clean water, a home, the ability to read and write.

It took a long time for me to get pregnant, we have both male and female fertility issues. I found that it was important to remember that no matter how many people become pregnant/have babies thay are not decreasing your chances, your fertility issues belong to you.

Be thankful that you live in a time and place where fertility treatments are an option.

sad for a lot of your stories.

Shro, I see were you're coming from, but I too am sometimes appalled at the shere apparant randomness of Life in General.
Shit happens to Good People.
It also happens to Bad People.
Good Things happen to Good People.
And also to Bad People.

The above is the main reason I have lost all Faith.
That and children dying I am in the wrong job for that.

I hope all of you on this thread with sad stories can find some peace.
sad

And yy to 'strong women' on this thread.
And no doubt strong men as well.

HesterShaw Fri 05-Apr-13 22:45:56

Absolutely, though they're not on this thread!

I do wish men had the equivalent support networks with regard to infertility. So often they feel they can't talk to anyone least of all their partners. So many relationships falter because of infertility.

Okay, I have calmed down a lot now. I sincerely apologise for my bloody madness earlier and hope I haven't upset or annoyed anyone. .

I agree with everything you have said Pacific.

FunnysInLaJardin Fri 05-Apr-13 22:49:30

life is unfair full stop. There is nothing fair in this world about a child of 5 getting cancer or a man of 50 with young children getting cancer. Once you have that sorted then you can get on with things. Fate points it's ugly finger and fairness has no say at all.

Schro, this is such an emotive subjects.

I know that things I have found helpful wrt to my MCs are deeply offensive and hurtful to others.
We all have to find comfort were we can.

And yes, I think men are often left to it when it comes to challenges re procreation. 'Tis a feminist issue, innit? Why oh why is fertility or lack thereof so often seen as a 'Women's Problem' AND an embarrassing weakness?? When we should be in this together (certainly as a couple) rather than looking for 'fault'. And supporting affected people.

Tbh, I feel v lucky as I consider my ratio of 4 MCs : 4 DC pretty good going. Random, dumb luck <<undeserving>>

The comfort I find in this particular subject is that a lot of the children from families like those mentioned end up making other people happy as adoptive children.

Obviously that isn't the case every time though.

I'm sorry about your MCs. sad

Hey, small price to pay tbh.

Yy, I wish adoption were a bit easier; the hoops people have to jump through are ridiculous.

Hope you are ok x.

expatinscotland Fri 05-Apr-13 23:08:30

There were friends with us when our daughter died. One is a woman whose only child was born still. I cannot think of a person more deserving of being a mother, she is far worthier than I and many others. Her love was so great, she was able to set aside her grief to be there with us, to see our daughter out of this life.

Besides her was the one of another couple who were there. 3 years they struggled with infertility and treatments, to have a son. A beautiful, cherished son. When he was 11 months old, he was diagnosed with untreatable brain cancer. He died in their bed, age 19 months. Now despite IVF they have been unable to conceive again.

Bad shit happens to good people all the time, every day, because that is life.

There is NO such thing as fairness. Life just is.

Am I sorry for that? Every day. Every day, so many of us lose, lose, lose.

We live on because, well, there is only one alternative, and it's not for us at present, for whatever reason.

But it's not exclusive to infertility. It just is what it is.

And may I express my thanks to Pacific for being there. smile

ReallyTired Fri 05-Apr-13 23:11:44

I feel it is desperately unfair that the Philpot children, baby P and countless others never got to reach adulthood, yet alone have children. Ofcourse its terrible when a child dies of natural causes, but a healthy child dying at the hands of their parents/ caregivers is an unforgivable breech of trust.

It is desperately unfair that certain people are able to procreate and abuse huge numbers of children when there are other people who are infertile.

Prehaps there is an arguement for sterilising the like of Mick Philpot, but complusory sterilisation is far worse than the problems it solves.

expat, you've just reduced my to tears.
It was an honour.
And a privilege.

I sometimes wish I could've met her...

I think of you often.
I hope you can find some distraction in your other children xx.

me, reduced me.

Feck, I cannot type

Lueji Fri 05-Apr-13 23:14:26

I'm sure there must be lots of people in 3rd world countries with no food or medicine thinking along the same lines.

Life is not about fairness.

The comfort I find in this particular subject is that a lot of the children from families like those mentioned end up making other people happy as adoptive children.
Really?
How about finding comfort in that a lot of such children end up BEING happy with adoptive parents?

Lueji Fri 05-Apr-13 23:15:25

Basically, it's not unfair on YOU that such parents can have children, but unfair that children are born in such families.

FGS.

I'm totally fine. smile I grew up with my Grandmother, who is the most lovely caring woman I have ever met.

It's just a touchy subject because it feels like people are wishing you weren't born to make them feel better. Which is probably wrong it's just I have seen so many opinions that lean that way.

Expat It is so true, awful things happen to people for no reason at all and sometimes to people who seem the most undeserving of such utter bad luck.

My GM that I was speaking of, lost both her Son (my Dad) and her DH in 2 separate horrific accidents in the space of a year, life really isn't fair at all.

Lueji Of course I wasn't including the childrens happiness. hmm

ReallyTired Fri 05-Apr-13 23:19:01

"The comfort I find in this particular subject is that a lot of the children from families like those mentioned end up making other people happy as adoptive children."

Nope, the adoption/ care system in this country is far too slow. Most of these children spend a childhood being passed from foster home to foster home. Social services are too slow to remove the chidlren and give the parents multiple chances to improve. It is easy to find adoptive parents for a cute baby, but no one wants a three year old with severe behavioural issues (caused by abusive and attachment issues).

Often children languish in care because social workers are looking for the perfect match of adoptive parents.

Yes, adoption works both ways.
What's your point, Lueju?

I wish Philpott did not get quite as much attention.
Punishment, yes; but not attention.

At the end of the day it's down to biology: the selfish gene wants to procreate at all cost.
Biology does not care whether you are a deserving parent or not.

And unfairness in the greater scheme of things ie poverty and starvation is NOT as random as fertility/infertility, let's face it.
Which side of the poverty/affluence divide you are born on, that's random, but not what creates these differences in the first place.

NO child asks to be born.
Which is why we have the frigging duty to make their lives as good as possible.

The Philpotts kids are just that - kids. Not their fault. sad

My following sentence was "obviously that isn't the case everytime though".

Unfortunately I know this as well which is the reason my DB was left in a house on fire...

I would argue against no one wanting a child in those circumstances though as I have 3 other brothers that would fit that along with numerous SN/SEN including one with needs so severe he will never walk or talk. I suppose they have been extremely lucky in finding a home though.

I don't know what happened to the rest of them though so I guess they could have really bad lives and I wouldn't know.

TigerseyeMum Fri 05-Apr-13 23:23:52

Not only is fertility unfair but fertility treatment is also an unfair lottery, ask found out to my cost at the over the hill age of 37.

^"NO child asks to be born.
Which is why we have the frigging duty to make their lives as good as possible.
"^

I think that's what has riled me so much in the past few days, all the talk of what would these kids have become with parents like theirs. sad They were children, innocent bloody kids.

Lueji Fri 05-Apr-13 23:30:37

I found this thread too biased towards the "rights" of having children.

And really don't like thinking of adopted children only as going to make a couple happy.
It might have been in your thoughts (was it, really?) but not in your words.

Well obviously it was in my thoughts considering most of my siblings have been adopted!

orangebuccaneer Fri 05-Apr-13 23:47:23

You're right OP it is a lottery. Like so many things in life, it's just that infertility has such a huge effect on all other aspects of life, its consequences are so much bigger than other physical 'flukes'.

With respect to the God question, I actually find that things like this increase my faith in a God, otherwise I can't rationalise them. If this world is all there is, then the thought of what some people (particularly children) go through, is too tough to take. Believing in a God means I know that this world is not all there is: that it is fallen, that it is flawed, but that one day everything will be made right.

expatinscotland Sat 06-Apr-13 00:08:54

I always do, Pacific. I never knew, either, till later, that who was KristinaM had lost her son. She did not deserve that anymore than any child deserves a death from cancer.

Cruel, OP, that is what most of life is. If you want to have a shot at contentment, best leave any ideas of fairness behind, because in addition to being utter tosh they will leave you wasting time on anger.

infamouspoo Sat 06-Apr-13 09:21:59

Life is unfair. One glance at the news tells us that. There's no divine plan, no good people get good things, no do your best and you get rewarded.
All you can do is find a bit of happiness in the chaos/

infamouspoo Sat 06-Apr-13 09:23:06

' it's just that infertility has such a huge effect on all other aspects of life, its consequences are so much bigger than other physical 'flukes'. '

Really? Like not being able to walk or talk? Like being severely disabled? I know which I'd pick

MrsDeVere Sat 06-Apr-13 12:27:59

Of course you should have to jump through hoops to adopt children.

They should be the right hoops for the right reasons but adopting a child should never be 'easy'.

Would you want one of your children to be 'easily adopted' if something happened to you?

You would want them going to a family who had been thoroughly tested wouldn't you?

I know I would.

I would want the adoption to be for the benefit of my child. Not to make another family happy. That is a wonderful side benefit.

DolomitesDonkey Sat 06-Apr-13 12:32:35

YANBU. confused I remember when I was struggling and Pete docherty managed to impregnate someone when they were both in rehab. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

maddening Sat 06-Apr-13 12:41:48

I think life in general is an unfair lottery - it could be any combination of health/life problems that leaves you feeling you got the shitty end of the stick.

At least there are options of treatments and adoptions - some people have situations with no options - not that it makes it fair, it doesn't and it is v painful. I don't think fairness comes in to it at all.

I don't think that dwelling on these feelings and holding bitterness towards people who conceive is going to do you any good - have you tried counselling? Imo it is similar to the grief of bereavement - the baby the never was but in your mind's eye he/she is very real and every time you aren't pg is like a bereavement - which is why I would seek out counselling as you don't need to be consumed by this - this shouldn't be what defines you and your very being.

nokidshere Sat 06-Apr-13 12:57:12

Infertility stinks, but, as others have said already, so do lot of other aspects of life.

When I started tcc at the age of 22 I worked for SS. I used to consider it massively unfair that the parents I worked with could seemingly pop a child out at a moments notice and I - who was so much better then them and so much more deserving - couldn't. How arrogant and unfair it was of me to feel like that though? I used to think I was "lucky" that I couldn't get pregnant - much luckier than those who could get pregnant but were unable to carry to term. Because they were suffering more than me.

Then I fell pregnant naturally at 39, and again at 41 and realised how much infertility had warped my view of other peoples fertility.

I look around me now and feel insanely grateful for my life. We lost 3 friends to cancer in the last 2 years - all far too young with young families, Another friend has two beautiful boys who were healthy and full of life - and they both got leukemia in primary school years. Another friend is having treatment for cancer as I type. Yet another set of friends have just gone through the very tough adoption process - its just as harrowing as infertility.

Life is unfair. But we cant do anything but get on with it. Our ability to cope is what makes or breaks us and the only person who can have an effect on the outcome is ourselves. But I dont belittle peoples faith, if that is what helps them cope then its no-one elses business - even if you dont believe in god.

seeminglyso Sun 07-Apr-13 20:08:57

PacificDogwood what 'hoops' are they? a CRB check, employment checks?

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/articles/23/10/2001/33705/brighton-and-hove-tightens-adoption-procedures-after-couple-convicted-of-cruelty.htm

In 2001 a report looking into this horrific murder suggested assessments be more rigorous ..what a shame the conservatives want to make it tantamount to a tick box check list...back to more disruptions and more children who are subsequently even more difficult to place.

Having to understand how neglect impacts brain development, look up attachment theory, developmental trauma, ...I could go on.....

One in ten adoptions disrupt...unrealistic expectations a lot of the time...the 'hoops' are very necessary. Children are not taken from their birth family for no reason and placing them in a home that does not plan to therapeutically parent them is tragic.

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