To ask for a list of jobs that mean that teachers have never had it so good and should stop complaining?

(153 Posts)
chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 20:26:18

I thought I'd try and equal the number of threads about the Philpots with ones about teaching? wink

Why oh why does everyone have to have an opinion on teaching? <wails> Why is it ok to say 'well if you don't like it, get another job?' Don't people want teachers to teach their children or is everyone planning on home edding?

One argument is that there are other jobs out there that are just as shit. Maybe we could just list the jobs that have all of the following:

A similar level of unrelenting pressure
National expectation & judgement of results
Responsibility for future success of the next generation
Constant derision from service users ie parents/ public
Systematic devaluing of the profession by their employer ie government
Similar annual hours
Same post-graduate qualification level
Same salary

Then all the teachers can say yes, they are shit jobs too. And all the other people can be pleased that the teachers have acknowledged they don't have the only shit job in the world and theirs is just one of them.

Jobs have to fit all of the above criteria or they don't count.

Oodsigma Thu 04-Apr-13 20:27:05

Social Work?

ReallyTired Thu 04-Apr-13 20:30:00

Social worker, doctors, nurse, midwife, health visitor.

Social workers suffer the wroth of the general public more than teachers. They certainly have unrelenting pressure and if they make a mistake then a child dies.

Fleecyslippers Thu 04-Apr-13 20:31:24

Nurses. Nurses are cruel, uncaring and earn too much money and have too much pension.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 20:32:23

Agreed, but do they earn the same or have to be a post-graduate? I don't know what social workers earn or need qualification-wise.

Shelly32 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:32:34

I'm a teacher, my sister is a social worker. I wouldn't do her job and she wouldn't do mine.

Whathaveiforgottentoday Thu 04-Apr-13 20:34:21

agree with social worker - now that would be a career to move to that gets more of a bashing. Agree with health visitor too.

FreyaSnow Thu 04-Apr-13 20:35:11

Lots of people have all these issues with their profession.

You don't need a postgraduate degree to be a primary school teacher.

Most of people's issues with education are down to the way schools are managed, not with the teachers themselves.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 20:36:04

Agree that I wouldn't be a nurse or a social worker. But do you think that people generally accept these are difficult jobs and they are underpaid and underappreciated? (I do.)

dramaqueen Thu 04-Apr-13 20:36:48

Oh FFS. So fed up with these threads. Most people work hard and have pressure in their jobs. Just deal with it or move on. There are enough teachers looking for jobs so let them have your job.

dramaqueen Thu 04-Apr-13 20:37:41

Then do something else. Yes, it is that simple. Leaving this now as it is so irritating.

ReluctantBeing Thu 04-Apr-13 20:37:53

You don't need a postgraduate qualification to be a primary teacher? Really?

TroublesomeEx Thu 04-Apr-13 20:38:51

SW don't need PG qualifications unless they didn't do a SW degree and qualified by doing the MA in SW. I think the pay is fairly comparable. Expectations, lack of respect any heavy workload are v similar. IMO.

Doctors are in a different league. Pay is a lot better and training is longer but different. I don't think it's comparable.

Nursing doesn't require PG qualifications.

I think SW is fairly comparable.

lopsided Thu 04-Apr-13 20:39:12

Doctors receptionist
Don't have to be a postgrad, but the pay and abuse are terrible.

Paramedics, poor pay, shocking levels of abuse and violence. Antisocial hours. If you cock up someone could die.

TroublesomeEx Thu 04-Apr-13 20:39:25

Why don't you need a PG qualification to be a primary school teacher?

FreyaSnow Thu 04-Apr-13 20:39:54

No, you can be a primary teacher with a BA Ed. Some BA Ed courses are three years in length and some are four. It is an undergraduate level qualification. Many primary school head teachers would rather employ an NQT with a BA Ed than a graduate with a PGCE.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 20:40:12

You don't need a postgraduate degree to be a primary school teacher.

Do you not need a PGCE to be a primary school teacher? I didn't know that.

I'm not a teacher btw.

Fleecyslippers Thu 04-Apr-13 20:40:45

Junior doctor. Relentless pressure, obscene hours and lots of people could die.

If you hate your job so much OP, WHY do you do it?

ReallyTired Thu 04-Apr-13 20:40:56

"Agreed, but do they earn the same or have to be a post-graduate? I don't know what social workers earn or need qualification-wise."

Nurses and midwives often have specialist postgraduate qualifications. Health visitors have an Msc in Public Health. It takes four years to become a midwife which is comparable to how long it takes to become a teacher. I don't think you can really argue that a BEd is superior to a 4 year BSc in Midwifery.

A nurse starts on 21K and senior nurses can earn 35K or 40K. Being a nurse takes a similar level of intelligence to being a teacher and its reasonable that it is paid similarly.

Junior doctors do not earn huge bucks, but they have the potential to earn well in the future. (However teachers can earn well if they go into senior management)

There are lots of routes into social work and I believe that many people take a postgraduate qualification. social worker pay is similar to a teacher.

www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Social_Worker/Salary

Felicitywasonholiday Thu 04-Apr-13 20:41:01

You do, well that or a Bed. In a state school.

You don't need any qualifications at all in independent or free schools. Most teachers still do though, but other routes in are also accepted.

TroublesomeEx Thu 04-Apr-13 20:41:53

Although you do have a point. It's not a PG degree, the clue is in the title PG'C'E or PGDE from a lot of universities now.

Oodsigma Thu 04-Apr-13 20:41:54

Sw are getting pushed into post grad now even if its not compulsory. There's less career progression than teachers and salary is variable as they don't have the national scale.

I wouldn't do either!

FreyaSnow Thu 04-Apr-13 20:42:56

Felicity, a B Ed and a BA Ed are undergraduate degrees. They are not a higher level of qualification than any other undergraduate degree. Many are now three years long.

lopsided Thu 04-Apr-13 20:43:49

Teaching doesn't require a post graduate qualification. It's just most people do it that way.

Social work carries a greater degree of exposure to threatening situations as it often requires lone working. You only ever hear about social work where there has been a cock up and a vulnerable person has suffered.

wherearemysocka Thu 04-Apr-13 20:45:16

I'm a teacher and think there are far worse jobs than teaching. That's why I don't do them and teach instead. You're not really helping the image of teachers doing nothing but moaning about how hard they have it, are you?

Felicitywasonholiday Thu 04-Apr-13 20:45:54

Freya, yes I know. That's why I wrote 'you do, well that or a BEd.

ReallyTired Thu 04-Apr-13 20:46:02

A PGCE doesn't have the same level of academic rigor as a masters degree. Its not a second degree, its job training.

The clue being that PGCE stands for postgraduate certificate. Most PGCEs are on the job training and there is no dissertation or research component and the course is nine months long at most.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 20:46:08

Dramaqueen living up to her nn then! hmm

I'm not a teacher. My OP still stands. Teachers go "yep, being a social worker/ nurse is hard too". And everyone else sits happy knowing the teachers don't think they have the worst job in the world.

INeedSomeSun Thu 04-Apr-13 20:46:20

I read the other thread about capping teachers hours to 4 a day and found it really informative. I had no idea so much planning and admin was required and think it is awful. I want teachers to teach my kids effectively, not doing useless admin in case ofsted visits or keeping records that no one actually even reads.

A serious question - why do you do all those things if they make you so overworked and don't add anything of value? Why don't you all get together and try to change things? If all teachers said we are no longer doing xyz, what would happen? You couldn't all get fired and the govt would have to listen

You are getting treated like shit because you are allowing it to happen.The policies are brought in with a good intention, I'm sure, but the govt needs to know that all the papetwork is hindering instead of enabling progress, which ultimately affects our children

Viviennemary Thu 04-Apr-13 20:47:42

Teachers are totally natural moaners. Nearly every teacher's favourite hobby is complaining. About Ofsted, the children, the headteacher, the meetings, the children, the marking, the paperwork, parents evenings, the pension scheme. I expect I've missed a few. But I don't think it's an easy job nowadays.

Simontowers1 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:47:48

I can name plenty of jobs with similar pressures OP, however, it is impossible to do a proper comparison as these jobs don't have 13 weeks holiday. (Although, obviously, these aren't really holidays - teachers spend about 12 of these weeks marking, catching up, blah blah, etc etc)

nokidshere Thu 04-Apr-13 20:48:31

Surely everyone chooses their,profession? If you don't like it then don't do it...and that goes for all jobs.

GrumpyCrossPatch Thu 04-Apr-13 20:49:44

A&E doctor. This week I have mainly been yelled at, vomited on, had my head staved in, watched several people die, been apparently responsible for the massive overcrowding in the department and barely seen my kids awake.

FreyaSnow Thu 04-Apr-13 20:50:12

I think people should respect the transferable skills of teachers more, so that the ones who don't like their job can find employment elsewhere.

GrumpyCrossPatch Thu 04-Apr-13 20:50:51

Still love my job - there are moments everyday that make all that pain worthwhile smile

Felicitywasonholiday Thu 04-Apr-13 20:51:13

Because when teachers worked to rule the govt. minister in charge tells heads to cut our wages and tells the national press we are lazy.

Because the unions are trying but aren't powerful enough. And Gove CAN sack huge swathes of teachers and replace with less qualified staff. Because public opinion is so anti teachers striking and because teachers keep working for the love of the kids and the love of paying their own rent .

Because we are so poorly educated ourselves we routinely start sentences with And and Because. Our grammar is shocking too grin

Shelly32 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:51:14

I didn't think the OP was moaning..

Shelly32 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:52:44

Simontowers1 You have a real problem.

Squarepebbles Thu 04-Apr-13 20:52:55

IT tech team leader ticks all those boxes and then some.

Dp is paid less than the education equivalent,doesn't get a fab pension,is higher qualified (Masters and professional qualifications which have to be kept up to date),crap holidays,no assistant,no security(if you screw up you're out and are escorted of the premises pdq),has to go in overnight then work the next day when it's project release,huge stress(millions riding on his code and projects if they go tits up),constant changing of the goal posts and project dates,no union fighting his corner......

I'll stop now.He's sitting opposite and has got plenty to add but he'll rant all night.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 20:54:47

it is impossible to do a proper comparison as these jobs don't have 13 weeks holiday

Which is why I put annual hours, not weekly or monthly. I've always felt that over a year teachers probably do the same amount of work as other high-pressured jobs, but it's squashed into shorter 6-8 week periods.

FreyaSnow Thu 04-Apr-13 20:55:46

What makes you think that teachers work longer hours each day than people in comparable jobs?

For future success read 'health' and you've a job description there for a NHS manager. The job I would like would pay around £30,000 and I've 10 years experience.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 21:03:28

Ok. I'll add IT tech team leader to the list. It sounds awful. sad

*squarepebbles *Has anyone asked your DH why he doesn't just get another job if the one he has is so bad? Or does he not moan about it?

Snugglepiggy Thu 04-Apr-13 21:03:51

My daughter is a teacher.Loves her job.Finds it demanding and tiring but manageable but compared to her partners hours ( unrelenting) in Retail Management.Granted her partner doesn't have a post grad but loads of other jobs / professions are tough,tough ,tough.
I was a Midwife.That's no walk in the park these days.My DH has sweated for years running his own business through difficult times worrying about keeping things going for us and all his employees.
Maybe that's why my daughter doesn't moan,and gets annoyed with the colleagues that do.

ThePinkOcelot Thu 04-Apr-13 21:05:39

There's loads of worse jobs than teachers I would have thought. GP receptionist/secretaries. Supermarket workers, cleaners, paramedics, bus drivers, to name but a few.
I would have thought the atmosphere working in a school leading up to xmas or easter would be fun, with activities etc.

YouBrokeMySmoulder Thu 04-Apr-13 21:07:04

I think that sometimes some teachers are completely unaware of what a normal working day is now in a multinational london office. I work an 8 hour day with email for hours either side and more sometimes in the evening for less money than a newlyish qualified teacher and I am in a senior role.

Anyone who works in the media would say the same. And theres no pension, no long holidays and a culture whe there are always young things coming up behind you willing to work all hours for peanuts.

Lots of jobs can be hard. [shrugs] especially when you think about the fact that you are tethered to london in a lot of careers without the same job security etc.

Squarepebbles Thu 04-Apr-13 21:09:19

He likes it and is good at it.

To be honest my sister works for a big charity and it's no better. The hours and travelling she does,the responsibility etc.

However she too loves it and is good at it.

It's just the lot of most people in the private sector but they don't have unions to fight,advertise and promote their corner ie they just get on with it.

I was a teacher.

ubik Thu 04-Apr-13 21:09:32

The ambulance service is paid terribly, vicious rota system, nights/weekends. Huge responsibility.

I've an acquaintance who is a child protection social worker who doesn't sleep at night as her caseload is so overwhelming, is frequently sent alone to houses where the inhabitants are known to be violent and who can easily still be at work at 9pm if a child requires emergency accommodation.

Is this a kinda top trumps game?

My friend spent a summer opening rancid cans of catfood and disposing of the tin. I'd rather teach.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 21:10:32

I think that sometimes some teachers are completely unaware of what a normal working day is

I would agree, but I do think it goes both ways. I don't think most teachers try to claim they work the longest days of anyone, but they do have to counter public perception that their day consists of contact time only.

INeedSomeSun Thu 04-Apr-13 21:10:38

I didn't say strike. Just don't do the unecessary admin. Of course head teachers & the unions need to agree with this and it needs to be decided what IS and is not necessary. But if you all worked together, maybe you could make a change?
Not saying it will be easy of course.
But either you try to change things, put up....or find another job!

TotemPole Thu 04-Apr-13 21:12:48

Do all teachers really work much longer hours?

I've seen people talk about preparing lessons, marking and paper work etc. But once you'd done the preparation for a lesson you can reuse for a number of years until the syllabus changes.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 21:13:57

Is this a kinda top trumps game?

No. It wasn't me that turned it into that. hmm

I don't work for the public sector, but I have a union which fought and threatened strikes when the company I work for tried to change the pension scheme. A defined benefit pension scheme that is still open to new entrants.

scottishmummy Thu 04-Apr-13 21:13:57

Oh stop with all the teachery woe is me,not all teachers have pg.BEd is undergrad
Teachers do like to fuckin moan about their 60hr week,pressure,targets
Yadda yadda the t&c are great.they're not hard done to at all.or esp well qualified

FreyaSnow Thu 04-Apr-13 21:17:35

I think teachers do work longer hours than contact time, but most people in a professional job work longer hours than 9-5. Most people have to do extra work outside of the hours actually in their place of employment - paper work, reports, constantly updating their knowledge and gaining new qualifications.

The fact that teachers need a degree and sometimes a postgraduate certificate is neither here nor there. Lots of graduates have to work in non graduate professions, and some professions are made up of almost all graduates but don't pay accordingly.

Shelly32 Thu 04-Apr-13 21:19:01

Totempole Our schemes of work change on a pretty much yearly basis. Maybe that's just my school though. Now the gov has changed the GCSE specs and all is up in the air for next year now.

Shelly32 Thu 04-Apr-13 21:22:10

Scottishmummy the Ts&Cs WERE great. Now many schools are academies and those are no longer subject to the LEA. Let's not even go into pensions. And as for working to rule- most teachers won't work to rule. The unnecessary admin mentioned earlier is neceassry to track progress and build on weak areas. You go into teaching wanting to help yound people. Working to rule only harms the students and no decent teacher wants that.

mercibucket Thu 04-Apr-13 21:23:26

social worker sounds a v hard, under valued and stressful job, with no govt support

Squarepebbles Thu 04-Apr-13 21:24:27

"Let's not go into pensions" but dp would have to pay 3/4 of his salary a month to get the same.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 21:26:06

Didn't the teaching unions tell teachers to work to rule last year and it was physically impossible to do the job well in the contracted times? I guess it's like asking nurses to go home at the end of their shift no matter what and leave patients uncared for or for a social worker to leave a house visit because their time is up. You don't do the job to work to the clock.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 21:30:52

squarepebbles Your DH would have to pay 75% of his salary to get a pension equivalent to 1/60 of his salary for every year he's done his job? Where have you got those figures? Your DH has no way of knowing what any pension fund value would buy him at age 65 (unless he's in his 60s and then he'd have a fair idea).

Shelly32 Thu 04-Apr-13 21:31:25

Chicaguapa They still are asking teachers to work to rule but like you said, it is impossible. I only work part time due to wanting a bit more work/life balance but still find on my days off I'm hoping my girls will want a nap so I can cram in some work. Most of the weekend and every evening after the girls are asleep is taken up with work too. It's not 'Oh woe is me ' as I love my job but it is very, very demanding energy, emotion and time wise. I always feel I'm not doing enough and I always feel that there is more to do. There is no cut off point.

goingwildforcrayons Thu 04-Apr-13 21:32:29

There are two main reasons why teachers are overworked, firstly the lazy and cr*p ones who mean that all the others have to work harder dealing with all the problems. Secondly, the amount of faff they have to do, just to teach a lesson, the planning, prep, assessment, recording of data, differentiation,different initiatives, not to mention having to act almost as counsellors, social workers, adoptive parents etc,, such as teaching children how to eat at a table with knife and fork (I kid you not and this was secondary school).

Trust me I have seen some blo*dy amazing teachers who are inspiring, caring and talented professionals. I have also seen some who definitely should not be in the profession. The performance management systems in many schools isn't robust enough to deal with poor performance.

One teacher was moaning to my DH that she wasn't on good money (£38k). He is support staff. When he told her his heart bled for her, she asked him what his salary was. When he told her he earned 40% of what she did, she said she shouldn't really be complaining then should she? biscuit.

I am with the teachers though on how Gove is a cretin. Just as Osbourne is doing with benefit claimaints, Gove is using rhetoric, making it sound like teachers and their pay/pensions caused the recession and using the same kind of phrases everytime teachers threaten to/strike e.g. "teachers will be inconveniencing working parents". Very cleverly turning public support against teachers, mentioning the good money that they are on (they are) and making it sound like teachers are going on strike for more money, even better gold plated pensions and reduced hours. The Unions are not doing enough explaining to parents why they are protesting and considering striking.

poppypebble Thu 04-Apr-13 21:32:56

Teaching isn't the worst job in the world, but it isn't a doss either. This term is the most stressful in terms of exam preparation and I will be at school 7am to 6pm Mon-Fri for the next 7 weeks, and that will be teaching - revision classes before and after school. Then I'll come home and do my prep and marking. I'll be crying at 5:30 when the alarm goes off, but that's the job I signed up for.

The job I wouldn't like to do is being a Vet. I couldn't stand seeing animals suffering.

Cabrinha Thu 04-Apr-13 21:35:45

Can I ask about the post grad qualification please?
I thought a PGCE was so called because you had to be post graduate to take this course - but it isn't actually a higher level qualification. It's equivalent in level to a first degree - but is a conversion course. You need to be a graduate to prove a standard, because the PGCE isn't a full length degree. I have a graduate diploma in law - same principle - it's not a higher level, it's a conversion. Postgrad quals to me are MSc, DPhil etc.

kim147 Thu 04-Apr-13 21:36:20

A friend of mine is a social worker working in child protection. Very stressful job.

" I always feel I'm not doing enough and I always feel that there is more to do. There is no cut off point."

True - and you also feel like you're never good enough. Or only as good as your last observation. It's also a job where you have a lot of responsibility but little control over your it (as OFSTED / SMT dictate how you should be teaching and what a good lesson is - in their opinion)

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 21:39:17

goingwild I completely agree with everything you've written. smile

I don't think the NUT helps by providing sound bites for people & media to pick up on and use against them. I do think they don't really understand the real world and what they're up against. Along with the bureaucracy, their biggest enemy is parents and public, yet they do so little to get them onside.

Most of the public don't even realise that the NUT isn't the voice of teaching and/ or teachers. They are not the only teaching union and the others don't always necessarily agree with what the NUT are standing for.

fuzzysnout Thu 04-Apr-13 21:39:22

Totempole It is pretty much impossible to reuse the majority of lessons you have planned as you are very unlikely to teach the same ability level from one year to the next. The syllabus pretty much changes from year to year, so combined with school policy changes and adapting to fit groups you might reuse activities, but it is rare the whole lesson can simply be reused. Inevitably resources also need to be updated, improved or replaced each time, so it's not quite as simple as planning lessons once every three years.

Shelly32 Thu 04-Apr-13 21:40:27

kim147 Totally! The lack of control you refer to and the ever changing goalposts make the job demoralising!

youarewinning Thu 04-Apr-13 21:43:12

If you do a BA(ed) you still need QTS (qualified teacher status) gained by doing 4 year degree BA(ed) with QTS or BA(ed) then PCGE, GTP (or the new eqivilent)

I'm currently doing my degree through OU to become a teacher!

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 21:44:27

I thought a PGCE was so called because you had to be post graduate to take this course - but it isn't actually a higher level qualification

No, you have to be a graduate to take it. But once you have it, you're not qualified to Master's level. You're in between. You now finish the PGCE with some credits towards the Master's in Education, depending on how well you did on the written bits in the PGCE, which you can add to during your teaching career to get the full Master's.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 21:51:37

Totempole I think you'd be pretty pissed off if your DC's teachers trotted out the same lesson time after time and didn't take into account your DC's abilities, needs etc. I think every parent expects a tailored lesson for their DC to make sure they make academic progress.

Once upon a time, teachers taught to the middle of the class and those at the top didn't fulfil their potential and those at the bottom stayed there. So then teachers had to teach to the top and bottom, but the middle got left out. Now they have to teach to everyone, and each lesson contains something for every child to make demonstrable progress. Until you have those children in that next class, you don't know how to do that. So each one has to be tailored for that class from one week to the next.

FreyaSnow Thu 04-Apr-13 21:54:22

Youarewinning, you can get QTS by doing a three year BA Ed. They are not all four year degrees.

Lots of professions require a particular vocational degree - opticians for example.

juniper9 Thu 04-Apr-13 21:55:44

I think teachers get a reputation for moaning so much because the media and public, on the whole, are very dismissive of the workload.

My dad used to tell me mum (a teacher) that it was just glorified babysitting, and she only went to work for the social side. My sister and brother both tell me, frequently, that I work 9-3:30 hmm

My DP is a doctor and works fewer hours than me. Yes, he does on-calls but usually he watches iPlayer or sleeps all night. He bought me a book about time management, but I haven't had time to read it (be dum bum cheerrrr)

I am off next academic year on maternity leave, but I genuinely do not know how I will be able to do my job once I have a baby. At the moment, I do work long hours and the 'to-do' list is never done.

Gove is intent on eroding all of the positives out of the job; calling us lazy and scroungers. The head of OFSTED said teachers should be happy to work such long hours as we enjoy our jobs. Big sigh.

heggiehog Thu 04-Apr-13 22:11:07

As a primary teacher I get annoyed with people thinking that I only work 9-3 (I work on average 12-14 hours a day), but whenever I try to respond to what they are saying I get accused of being a moaning teacher.

No...just trying to put people straight. Can't win.

Love my job though and there are much worse out there.

heggiehog Thu 04-Apr-13 22:13:30

To the people saying PGCE isn't a postgraduate qualification, yes it is, though I suppose it depends on the quality of the university you attend.

PGCE students that I have encountered in my area have to write around 20,000 words of Masters-level essays on top of working 50+ hours a week on placement.

chicaguapa Thu 04-Apr-13 22:14:27

Maybe you should start a petition a la IDS saying that Gove should spend some time in a school teaching English (his degree subject) and see if he still thinks teachers are lazy and scroungers. grin

What I see happening is:

something comes out in the media via Gove or the unions,
people start moaning about teachers and how they have an easy job, holidays etc,
then the teachers say "eh hold on. We don't have an easy job, and the holidays aren't holidays in the truest sense",
then everyone else wades in saying the teachers are moaning again

I think it's clear from this thread at least that there are other jobs out there that are comparable in shitness and others that are worse, like opening tin cans or whatever it was that was supposed to trump teaching.

The difference is, I think, that when the story came out about courses to teach nurses to care, people didn't come on mumsnet and start threads saying how shit nurses are and that if they can't do their job properly they should leave. I think most people recognised bollocks when they saw it and know that nurses do an incredibly hard job and it was another load of rubbish from the government trying to devalue the profession.

Similarly with social workers, when they were demonised over the baby P scandal, no one said social workers were crap. And whilst in that particular case, those actual SWs failed him, people still recognised what a bloody difficult and largely unrewarding job social work is. I think they deserve a medal.

LooseyMy Thu 04-Apr-13 22:15:26

Most government agencies operate the same. I personally have more empathy for people who work with dangerous offenders in prisoners, dealing with assaults and suicide attempts, than teachers.

youarewinning Thu 04-Apr-13 22:15:52

OK freya I stand corrected. There wasn't any 3 year ones when I looked but that was 6 years ago!

bumperella Thu 04-Apr-13 22:17:40

No decent professional deserves to be made to feel that they are lazy or moaners. But the problem is that few people make meaningful career changes so they cannot possibly compare current role to previous one.

Very few jobs that pay as well as teaching (taking into account pension entitlement, maternity pay, job security and the like) involve
(a) less than a 50-hour week, and constand availability via Blackberry (or similar phone/e-mail).
(b) a period of badly-paid graduate training scheme/conversion course.
(c) flixibility of future hours (GENERALLY can go part time when family responsibilities change as a teacher, or do supply work, or go into parallel careers, etc - not as often the case at the same level of seniority in private sector)
and they all have a balance between job satisfaction and the boring crud/paperwork and public 9or media) perception.

I do think if you don't like your job (in its entirety) then you should find something else. You wpn't be doing the job well if you hate it.

youarewinning Thu 04-Apr-13 22:19:36

Ah ha!! Think I know why!!!!! The BA(ed) QTS isn't an honours degree which requires the 6 extra modules studied as discrete subject - this is generally why it takes an extra year.

Shelly32 Thu 04-Apr-13 22:22:12

A lot of teachers, especially the ones involved in the pastoral side are contacted by parents whenever/wherever by phone and email. I'm often contacted on my days off via email.

FreyaSnow Thu 04-Apr-13 22:25:11

Youarewinning, from what I understand from friends who are training to be teachers, various universities have made the BA Ed into a three year course because of the huge rise in tuition fees. It covers exactly the same as the four year course but the students have to work harder over the three years to fit it all in.

I think that is generally a good thing because it saves students a lot of money, and many people would be put off teaching by the expense of the four year degree course.

youarewinning Thu 04-Apr-13 22:44:40

Makes sense Freya - I did a quick google and load of 3 year degrees. I was going from what I researched 6/7 years ago. Shame this thread is 2013 and my knowledge was outdated! blush

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 04-Apr-13 23:02:53

Legal aid lawyer

Trills Thu 04-Apr-13 23:07:17

YABU

Lexie1970 Thu 04-Apr-13 23:57:05

Reading all these posts has made me think...... Teachers appear to have 13 weeks holiday a year but due to planning and preparation, does it happen to drop down to the basic 5.6 weeks that Ms Average gets ...... The perception is that teachers work 9-3 but we are informed they work longer hours ..... More on a par with the conventional hours Ms Average works?.... Just wondering - do teachers actually work the 37.5 week but it is condensed into fewer weeks in the year so they can say the working t&c's are unfair .... As I said, just wondering....

balia Fri 05-Apr-13 00:20:07

Systematic devaluing of the profession by their employer ie government

I think one of Gove's areas of specialism is misleading the public and getting them to focus on things like holidays and teacher moaning. When in fact his policies actively disadvantage children and young people. I'll be striking, not because I'm a lazy moaner, but because I've seen these policies in action and what they do to students who are already disadvantaged. Students who can't go to FE because the EMA was cut. Students who don't apply to Uni because of the debt. Students who are taught by unqualified teachers because we just can't recruit trained staff and now the students don't have an entitlement to be taught by one anyway.

It is vital to remember that as the government seek to devalue teachers for their own political ends, they do it by devaluing the qualifications achieved by thousands of young people who worked hard.

chicaguapa Fri 05-Apr-13 00:20:28

That's what I think Lexie. On average they probably have a fairly typical workload if you average it out over the year. So maybe people should cut them some slack over the holidays by accepting they're entitled to them as time off in lieu of the extra hours that are put in during the term time?

Half terms aren't holidays, they're just non-directed, non-contact time spent doing school work. Perhaps not solidly from 8-3 though, but it's not relaxing, switch off time. You are expected to use that time to get on top of things and wouldn't have any excuses why something hadn't been done if you had been on school holidays.

I would say 1 week at Easter and 1 at Christmas could be treated as that too. By that I mean that you couldn't go away for 2 weeks at Easter and not fall behind on school work. You'd either take it with you or just go away for one week. Or you'd be running revision classes so can't go away anyway.

So that leaves the 6 weeks over the summer, which all things being well you could switch off from school until the results come out when you go in for a day. Then the following week before you go back you go in to sort your classroom out and get set up for the new school year.

So I don't think the holidays, where the time is your own and you are at liberty to do exactly what you want, are significant. There are obvious advantages in being off when the DC are, which shouldn't be underestimated. But that's offset against the inflexibility of time off and only ever being able to go away during the holidays.

For people who work flat out all year and get 5.6 weeks holiday, it must be galling when they think teachers are complaining about it. But I genuinely think they aren't. They're just responding to criticism that they get them at all.

juniper9 Fri 05-Apr-13 00:30:18

FreyaSnow my uni changed from 4 years to 3 years the year after I started, so there were twice as many students graduating in the same year (and only the same number of jobs hmm )

My degree is a BA Hons Primary Education with QTS and I'm trained in 3-11, having done 5 teaching practices.

The people who did the 3 year course had to choose 3-7 or 5-11, and they only did 3 teaching practices.

Most people I work with did a PGCE, but personally I think the BA / BEd gives you a greater insight into the reality of teaching, and the pedagogy etc. I don't have a specialist subject as such, but then in primary schools we only expect to teach to level 6 (unless there are exceptional cases) and that is year 9/10 level at best. Teachers should be able to do this across the board although many can't, but that's a different AIBU

chicaguapa Fri 05-Apr-13 00:40:15

I think one of Gove's areas of specialism is misleading the public and getting them to focus on things like holidays and teacher moaning

I looked him up on Wiki and didn't know he used to be a journalist. Which speaks volumes IMO as he knows exactly what to say to manipulate people's opinions. Soundbites such as 'I feel sorry for the parents who have to sort out childcare' (during the strike) which plants the seed that teachers are providing childcare. Another that they will reward teachers who don't work 9-3, thus planting the seed that teachers work 9-3 and those who don't are the exception.

It scares me how many people are unknowingly manipulated this way. That's why I get so annoyed by the comment 'gold-plated pensions' as that's a sound bite from Gove or that other irritating idiot. It says to me that someone is just repeating something they've heard or read, without understanding what that means. A teacher's pension is not gold-plated, Unlike the MPs' pension scheme, which is. In my company, non public sector, there are thousands of people who are still accruing at 1/60 at 7.5% contributions. It's not common, but it's not reserved just for the public sector and it doesn't make it plated with gold.

Instead of attacking the public workers, who let's face it we couldn't be without as they provide our services, why is it so bloody hard to support the people who are helping shape our DC's futures, caring for us when we're ill and making sure DC in the country are being looked after and treated right? And what's wrong in making them feel valued and letting them feel like we think they're doing a good job for us?

tethersend Fri 05-Apr-13 00:48:04

I'm a teacher who works for social services.

Do I win £5?

freerangeeggs Fri 05-Apr-13 00:59:55

"A serious question - why do you do all those things if they make you so overworked and don't add anything of value? Why don't you all get together and try to change things? If all teachers said we are no longer doing xyz, what would happen? You couldn't all get fired and the govt would have to listen

You are getting treated like shit because you are allowing it to happen.The policies are brought in with a good intention, I'm sure, but the govt needs to know that all the papetwork is hindering instead of enabling progress, which ultimately affects our children"

An excellent question! I'm a teacher and have had big debates with colleagues about this. I don't know why teachers don't stand up against this. It's insane. We're perpetuating it by accepting it and damaging our children as a result.

There are a lot of martyrs in teaching. I'm not prepared to become one, myself.

manicinsomniac Fri 05-Apr-13 01:25:20

what an odd thread!

Teaching isn't a shit job! Personally I think it's the best job in the world (aside from being a professional dancer, actress, olympian or fantasy type jobs like that!).

Great salary, great holidays, working with children all day, relative job security, varied tasks and family friendly. It's perfect.

I can't believe I'm lucky enough to get paid to do something that's so much fun. Yes okay, sometimes there is hard work involved. But what job doesn't have that. And I would say the fun outweighs the work several times over.

Gingerodgers Fri 05-Apr-13 02:30:53

Slightly off the point here, but wanted to say that I have huge respect for the teachers at my kids' school. I happen to think they work very hard for their money which is equivalent to a nurses salary. I used to be a nurse, so while it is certainly a liveable wage, it hardly makes you rich. I also can't believe anyone would consider a free school, where teachers are unqualified, that's like homeschooling without the work. It is part of a bigger picture of dumbing down, anyone can be a teacher (yeah right) it all plays a part in the general lack of respect for all professionals which society encourages these days. Yet, degrees often don't seem to worth the paper they are written on these days, coz every buggers got one! Anyway rant over.

I agree re hours.

But if you try and tell the young people today that.. and they won't believe you.

ilovechips Fri 05-Apr-13 06:26:11

These threads are really irritating! Is it a competition to see who has the most stressful job? I have no axe to grind at all and have no strong opinions re teaching but do get tired of hearing teachers say oh well we can never switch off etc - do teachers think everyone else finishes work, on time, and doesn't give it a second thought until the next day? I don't know anyone who has that luxury. A teacher on another thread yesterday said she envied "every other job" where you can take coffee breaks whenever you like. Again, I've never encountered this! I'm not anti teacher or anti anyone - I think we all have stressful jobs and these threads don't add anything.

exoticfruits Fri 05-Apr-13 07:26:41

This sort of thread doesn't add anything,but I think that because most people have been to school, or have children in school, they have a perception of the job. I think the irritating part is that a lot if it is completely wrong - as in ' you have done the lesson planning once, you can just trot it out every year the same'. Yes, you can do but it isn't what I would want for my children- tired teachers trotting out tired lessons- and very boring for the teacher. I would prefer a teacher who was enthusiastic about it and looking for new resources, new ways of putting it across and who realised that if the children are different you can't just 'trot it out'.
Of course other jobs are just as tiring etc etc but they are not getting the bashing that teachers get. I think some people want robots who live in a cupboard at school!

Fairylea Fri 05-Apr-13 07:30:13

Bookie office manager. 60 hours a week and they won't pay overtime and you can't get accrued time backas its always too busy. Most of the customers are pissed and spend the day telling you to fuck off.. and the salary for all this ? -£15k.

And its a huge multi national company. Not a small independent one.

EuniceDumbsdown Fri 05-Apr-13 07:36:03

BA (Hons) in any subject = level 5 qualification
PGCE and/or QTS = level 6 qualification
MA in any subject = level 7 qual
PhD = level 8 qual

Welovegrapes Fri 05-Apr-13 07:43:33

Someone already said legal aid lawyer.

Just wanted to expand on that as it is a job my friend does - postgrad qualification, very long hours, not a vast salary, huge pressure and potentially very serious consequences of actions every day eg of genuine asylum seeker potentially not getting asylum sad

IME (ex-dp was a teacher) a lot of teachers think they are uniquely hard done by.

CharlotteBronteSaurus Fri 05-Apr-13 07:54:47

<awards tethers a fiver>

I wouldn't teach for all the tea in China, regardless of the holidays/pay, so I am very glad that others do, and do it well.

However, I do think one genuine positive of teaching is that the long hours can be put in at home, when your own DC are in bed, having been collected from childcare, fed and watered. I am a SW, DH a police officer, and I hate having the Top Trumps conversations at 5.15pm about whose work-based emergency is more pressing, thereby meaning the other will have to leave for the childcare run.

ithaka Fri 05-Apr-13 07:59:44

My husband absolutely loves being a teacher and finds it far lower pressure and more job satisfaction from his previous roles (mid life career change).

He can't get a full time permanent contract however - which makes long term teachers whinges especially galling.

Bunfags Fri 05-Apr-13 08:07:09

I think most people have a lot of pressure in their jobs. Perhaps OP would feel better if she thought about what's going on in the private sector? People working longer hours with no extra pay, pay cuts in some cases and with shitty employers that won't pay pension or sick pay etc. 25 days holiday a year. Employers can take the piss, because so many people are out there looking for work.

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 08:18:47

Everyone has a view on teaching as we all went to school and most of us have children who also go to school. I also think that there appears to be no great mystery to teaching, there is no body of knowledge like Medicine so people think "I teach my children every day , that is all they are doing but with 30" I am not saying there is no body of knowledge just that is how it appears.

I object to the moaning teacher stereotype, you will very rarely hear me moan - no more than anyone else about their job. I may say the hours that I do, but I am making a statement not moaning. I chose to go into teaching , I chose a job with certain hours . If I felt the need to incessantly moan I would do something else.

I do not think that teaching is the hardest job in the world, why would someone choose to do the hardest job in the world? I am all for as easy a life as possible and one that gives me a sense of satisfaction but time with my children - teaching does that .

My hours in term time are long, but can usually be planned around my family. My job allows me to enjoy a rich social life, I go out midweek every week and most weekends . My job gives me the time and financial resources to do that. If I want to leave at 4pm, I can do so at least three days I week. Working with young people is great , they may have their hormonal moments but they are interesting and it is very rare they just refuse to do as they are told - but they might moan. I get paid to blather on all day about a subject that I find interesting - and I get paid for it. I have a great pension , great holidays , job security and I work with varied people .

I am like a pig in muck . IMO most jobs have it tougher than teaching .

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 08:20:17

Ilovechips I switch off most weekday evenings between 6:15 and 9pm, every Saturday and every holiday. My job is great but it is not the dominating theme of my life

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 08:24:27

Chicaguapa, half terms are holiday times. If my school expected me to work over my holiday I would be out of the door.

I agree with the person who asked why teachers do things that just serve to make them tired but make no difference . I am renowned for saying no to things and it had never held me back. Before doing anything, I ask will this make a difference and do I have time ? If it is no to either I don't do it.

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 08:25:51

Again chica, we go away ever easter for ten days and I never take work with me. People see teachers going away in their holidays so it is counter productive to say that we are all working through the holidays .

dizzyhoneybee Fri 05-Apr-13 08:26:40

I am getting so fed up with teachers who are moaning about the job. I work in education, I love my job and when I have a bad day (which we all have from time to time regardless of what job we do) I remind myself of the reason I chose to do the job - the children.
If you hate it that much then leave.

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 08:27:36

Lexie I worked out on the other thread that if you converted my hours to someone with an average of 5 weeks holiday I work 68 hours a week . ( I work about 80 over 40 weeks)

So yes my hours are condensed into a shorter time period .

SoupDragon Fri 05-Apr-13 08:28:17

I'm fed up with people whinging about being fed up about people whinging.

ilovechips Fri 05-Apr-13 08:28:43

I never said people shouldn't switch off, just that I don't know anyone who instantly switches off the second they leave work - regardless of what their job is!

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 08:31:47

Ilovechips I wasn't really disagreeing with you . I was making the point that as a teacher I do switch off and almost immediately as I walk out of the door.

Mummyoftheyear Fri 05-Apr-13 08:35:30

Whetearemysocka - my sentiments, exactly.
I'm a teacher. I love what I do. There are also bits I don't enjoy. 'Tis life.
Let's all get on with it! Lol

ilovechips Fri 05-Apr-13 08:35:55

Arisbottle - that's good to hear, it's sad that work is all consuming too often!

chicaguapa Fri 05-Apr-13 08:36:38

Perhaps OP would feel better if she thought about what's going on in the private sector?

OP works in the private sector. I've said it twice now. hmm

crashdoll Fri 05-Apr-13 09:24:03

"Of course other jobs are just as tiring etc etc but they are not getting the bashing that teachers get."

Nurses get a massive bashing, as do social workers.

Oodsigma Fri 05-Apr-13 09:32:59

tethers think a suit of armour would be more use than £5 ( after all public sector workers get £1m a day for no work and lumps of gold for a pension wink)

ubik Fri 05-Apr-13 09:47:33

In the recession, DP's self employed income halved due to a business closing down - many of his colleagues were made redundant, many work 400 miles away from their families.

Teaching is tough just like other public sector jobs. But there are many benefits too. It is a good job, with far better pay and conditions than many folk have to endure, even those with degrees and post grad qualifications.

I'm no fan of Gove, I think it is scandalous what he is doing to education, but he is playing the unions - headlines about teachers only wanting to teach 4 hrs a day really do not help teachers even though that headline obviously isn't the whole story.

Tigglette Fri 05-Apr-13 10:54:38

Arisbottle, so you're working an average of a 13 hour day for 6 days out of 7? I know I have a number of friends who are teachers who without a doubt work hard but nowhere near those hours.

As a social worker I average a 50 hour week with 7 weeks holiday - I'm part of am on call system where I need to be available 24 hours a day for 4 days in the month. The oncall isn't included in my 50 hour week. I chose the job and I love what I do, any profession should place demands on workers, its what I trained for and am paid to do.

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 11:15:38

Tiglette I work from 7am until 6pm and then usually from 9pm until around midnight, mon to Thursday. Friday I take it easy and do 7am until 6pm. Sunday I do about five hours .

I work similar hours to most of my department and I seem to do much less than most other MN teachers . I do nothing on a Saturday and nothing in the holidays .

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 11:16:26

I want to repeat, I am not moaning . I chose those hours .

Shelly32 Fri 05-Apr-13 11:29:39

Arisbottle Previously you said as soon as you're out of the door, you switch off. How can you if you then work in the evenings and at weekends. That isn't switching off. Don't get me wrong, as a teacher, I do those kinds of hours too but I don't see that as walking out of the door and switching off.
Maybe I'm a bit odd but Sunday nights are killers. I can't sleep due to ideas/worries running around my head about work. I work a lot of the one week holidays and quite a bit during the two week ones. I can't emotionally switch off as I find myself worrying about the kids, their progress, their lack of care about their own progress (not all of them obviously), and their other issues asides from educational ones. Teenagers are humorous, witty, amusing and generally a great bunch but they come with a great deal of baggage. I can't just put that to one side when I go home. Maybe I need to.

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 11:33:11

I do switch off until 9pm when I start again. On a Saturday I completely switch off . In the holidays I switch off.

Shelly32 Fri 05-Apr-13 11:36:23

So between 6pm and 9pm you think of NOTHING work related...I just can't do that. My whole day is spent consumed on the days I work and even on the days I don't. Not that it really matters or makes a difference , but do you teach primary or secondary and can I ask which subject? Just being nosey really!smile

Arisbottle Fri 05-Apr-13 11:44:40

I teach secondary. I am responsible for behaviour and child protection as well as my subject / history . I have to be able to switch off . Although my school is a relatively easy one to teach in I still deal with quite harrowing things on a daily basis.

I have four children , a stepson , horses , chickens, cats dogs and other animals - they all help me switch off .

Want2bSupermum Fri 05-Apr-13 11:50:37

There are many jobs out there are far worse than teaching. Audit is one of them (long hours, no overtime, hostile working environment at most clients, lots of travel which means driving all the time and huge pressure to deliver).

Anyway, I think the NUT conference had some great ideas. I would like to see the smaller class sizes implemented. At the private school I attended we rarely had more than 16 in a class. When we did I noticed a difference in the amount I learnt. This was in part because the class had more variance in ability but also it was harder for a teacher to control us.

I do think teachers have an awful time with discipline. My DD is at daycare and I like to think I am working with them all the time to iron out any misbehaviour. When she starts school it will be the same and the teacher will be backed up at home. Sadly this isn't the case and I often see some threads on here and just feel so sorry for the teacher.

ballinacup Fri 05-Apr-13 11:53:45

Try working in law in the private sector.

Everyone assumes you're on a huge whack pay-wise when actually, you earn less than the average teacher.

Statutory holidays.

SMP.

SSP and unpaid completely for the first three days.

Verbal/physical abuse from clients who then lodge complaints with the ombudsman, too many of those and the job is at risk.

Extra hours for no extra pay.

No payrise in five years.

Legal aid constantly being snatched back and back resulting in firms being pushed into precarious financial positions. Mass redundancies/employees forced onto part time hours.

ilovechips Fri 05-Apr-13 14:33:59

This is getting a bit monty python Four Yorkshiremen now!

WafflyVersatile Fri 05-Apr-13 14:43:48

We should want improvements for all of these professions not for teachers to shut the fuck up because they are not the only ones who have it bad.

Squarepebbles Fri 05-Apr-13 15:30:09

But then it would be impossible to do most of themhmm.

DrCoconut Fri 05-Apr-13 17:08:55

If you teach people trot out all this bollocks stuff to annoy you, I am sure of it. I work in a college.it's a 9 - 5 day and we don't get college holidays. There is an annual leave system as in any workplace with the additional constraint that time off cannot be booked during term time. People who know this still "joke" at with me about part timers, sitting on my bum for 13 weeks while some of us have to work etc. I can actually see them looking for a reaction. I've given up now bit when i used to correct them they'd quickly say "oh we don't mean you DrC!" What do they gain from this other than the satisfaction of proving that teachers are moaners, no humour etc?

scottishmummy Fri 05-Apr-13 20:04:27

You know what teachers aren't more maligned than anyone else
Every one of the other jobs mentioned here gets comments
I agree its tiresome to hear rot about your job, just smile, wave and ignore

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 05-Apr-13 20:13:23

Teachers get drawn in to these threads.

I stop posting once we have been around the circle once or twice or I think that posters are on a wind up (usually once they start trotting out the stereotypical views of some of the papers)

Shelly32 Fri 05-Apr-13 20:31:53

They get drawn in because they are so passionate about their jobs and their students and sick of all the negativity. It's hard not to when you give your heart and soul to something.

ipadquietly Fri 05-Apr-13 23:11:54

Well, I for one think that teaching gives me the chance to use my initiative, my organisational skills, my interpersonal skills, etc, etc. I'm not complaining.

There are so many jobs that are worse than this. What about the guy who stands on the roundabout in the rain with a Domino's Pizza sandwich board, wearing some stupid costume? He's probably got a degree, and has no idea what his career progression will be......

HallelujahHeisRisen Sat 06-Apr-13 01:11:24

social workers are seen as only there to take away children, by some people. i think they have that worse than teachers.

teachers get long holidays... ok so there is a lot of sleep to be caught up on after the weekly hours in term time...(55 hrs per week) and work to be done in the holiday, but you get to choose when you do that. that is one of the plus points of teaching.

Spinkle Sat 06-Apr-13 04:34:43

I teach children with emotional and behavioural difficulties. I am regularly spat on, kicked, slapped and sworn at.

This is in a mainstream school. Most are 5-7 years old.

To keep my contract I had to accept this role. I do not enjoy it. I feel abused most days. I was told by the Ed Pysch that these children are too poor in their behaviour for special school.

Right now, I'd do anything else.

BonaDea Sat 06-Apr-13 07:02:37

Oh dear. 'Unrelenting pressure'? Have you ever worked in a corporate environment at quarter end or on a business critical M&A transaction?

And 'annual hours'. Not sure what that is meant to mean. Get the fact that you don't work 9-3 or anything but not sure you are exactly expected to do what I would describe as a high number of hours. In my role I am in the office a min of 50 hours per week then read and deal with emails, do conference calls etc at home at evenings and weekends.

What I will give you is the Daily Mail-esque pressure and criticism you lot face from the general public. Pressure from parents is fair enough - the rest of us face pressure from our clients, share holders etc.

Eebahgum Sat 06-Apr-13 08:04:58

I'm a teacher. my job is hard sometimes. It's certainly not the worst job in the world. I could list a number of other jobs I wouldn't want to do. I wish people wouldn't keep perpetuating the idea that we're moany bastards that don't know how good we've got it - the government and the media do a good enough job of painting us in a bad light, we don't need people doing it from the inside too.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 06-Apr-13 09:17:38

"BonaDea
"Oh dear. 'Unrelenting pressure'? Have you ever worked in a corporate environment at quarter end or on a business critical M&A transaction?"

So your "unrelenting pressure" happens at quarter's end? that is not very "unrelenting"

"Get the fact that you don't work 9-3 or anything but not sure you are exactly expected to do what I would describe as a high number of hours."

So what do you mean by a "high number of hours"?

"What I will give you is the Daily Mail-esque pressure and criticism you lot face from the general public."

Decent of you

"Pressure from parents is fair enough - the rest of us face pressure from our clients, share holders etc."

you mean like pupils, parents, management, senior management, governors, LEA, Ofsted, DfE. etc. Different names same things.

I don't claim that the job doesn't have its perks, and I don't calim that its the hardest job in the world.
But if you are going to criticise the very least you could do is get the facts right.

ubik Sat 06-Apr-13 13:59:29

I do think teaching is now better paid than it ever was before - my parents were both teachers during the Thatcher years and we live on a council estate and wre skint all the time.

Leonas Sat 06-Apr-13 15:12:14

I am a teacher and I love my job. It is stressful and yes, we do have some different pressures to other jobs, but we have AMAZING holidays and decent pay. I don't think we have it any worse than a lot of other jobs. I don't care if people complain about our holidays - we knew what the holidays we when we started out just like everyone else does, we don't choose them , they are just an added bonus to a wonderful job!

babybarrister Sat 06-Apr-13 23:07:21

I hope some of the teachers on here have realised that other jobs have serious downsides too. The fact is that the employment market is shit so no-one has many options at the moment do they?
All of the professions are getting hammering by this government teachers are not alone.

BonaDea Sun 07-Apr-13 03:04:52

Boney - not sure which facts you think I have got wrong. On the 'pressure' front, I guess you are right that one of my examples was a poor one. However, my point remains that lots of professional jobs are pressured - in fact that's partly why they are professional, requiring years of study and qualifications. I think it is really rather naive to suggest that teachers have it worse than doctors, lawyers or anyone else.

In terms of the scrutiny from parents, management, pupils etc. really? You really think that folks in other jobs don't have pressure coming at them from a miriad of sources? Everyone has management (and senior management as you list that separately!), clients, partners, professional bodies and a host of other equivalents to worry about. Again, pretty naive to suggest teachers are worse off.

As for your question on hours. In my role a bare minimum working week includes 45 hours in the office, checking and responding to emails morning and evening before and after work and at weekends and probably a couple of 'out of hours' conference calls. On top of that would be travel for work away from home and long hours at particular times (like quarter end or closing a deal). That's pretty average in my line of work. DH in his profession works I'd say 60-70 hours per week minimum. None of my teacher friends work anything like those kind of hours - prob an average of 9-5. I get that you work outside of teaching time but seriously you think you work 'long' hours?

I do honestly believe that lots of teachers have no idea of how tough it is to work outside the sphere of education (a great many have zero experience in 'the real world' of work). It is bloody hard as nails, the hours can be brutal and the pressure crushing. Teachers have pressures but so do we all and the 'poor us' approach is really rather wearing.

Tough jobs surveys:

Otago University
1. Cheffing
2. Teaching
3. Slaughterers
4. Construction workers
5. Top managerial positions.

CareerCast
1. Commercial air pilot
2. Public relations officer
3. Corporate executives
4. Photojournalist
5. Newscaster

Careerbuilder
1. *Recruitment consultants
2. Lawyers
3. Teachers
4. Nurses
5. *Bankers
6. **Librarians

*because at time of survey the sector was contracting
**"the repetitive and unchallenging nature of their job combined with low wages and lack of control in their careers meant that librarians report more instances of work-related stress than workers in any other sector -- 1 in 3 to be precise."

Toad's conclusions
1. Glad to have a job.
2. I'll become a postie if I lose it.

Toad adds that DW was a teacher and found it stressful but (here he peers cautiously round) DW finds everything stressful and is inclined to comment that in his experience a good many teachers are similar.

Arisbottle Sun 07-Apr-13 08:29:54

Teachers do realise that we have lots of bonuses to our job otherwise we would not be doing it. As a teacher I work far in excess of the 60-70 hour workloads mentioned here and know many of my colleagues do to . However that is more than compensated by the fact that I get flexibility over when we do the work and I get work free holidays totalling 13 weeks . Far from being the toughest job in the world I think I am on to a good thing which is why , for the foreseeable future, I am staying put.

I do wish people would stop trotting out the stereotype that teachers are always overworked, stressed and always moaning . That is not me and I would struggle to name the teachers I know who fit that stereotype. To be honest we are too busy planning the next holiday to waste time moaning .

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 07-Apr-13 09:44:19

BonaDea

You are giving your opinions as facts.

"In terms of the scrutiny from parents, management, pupils etc. really? You really think that folks in other jobs don't have pressure coming at them from a miriad of sources?.."

I know that other professions have scrutiny from many sources, why do you believe that teachers don't?

"but seriously you think you work 'long' hours?"

I used to work 12 hr shifts, I and many other teachers do.

"a great many have zero experience in 'the real world' of work"

And we end on a stereotype, Do you know this for certain? Is this really a fact? or is just another ism from the likes of the daily mail?
Next you will be saying those that can do etc.

COCKadoodledooo Mon 08-Apr-13 08:49:32

Dh loves teaching. The actual contact with kids during lessons and the before/after school clubs/tutorials/revision groups he runs. He doesn't mind the marking or planning but does object to the having to record every tiny detail and constant scrutiny from outside agencies.
He works significantly more hours than he did in his previous job (by that I don't just mean in term time, I mean counting up the hours he does/did annually), for which he was paid twice as much. He did have stress/pressure in that role too but was permitted to make his own choices re how he did his job/used his time, which is just not possible now.
If anyone asks, his first response is that he does it for the kids, for that lightbulb moment when they just 'get it' for the first time and understand what Sir's been waffling on about. If pressed, he'll say it's not a career choice he could recommend.

As a career, him teaching puts more strain on our relationship/I get to spend less time with him than I did when he was in his previous job when he was out of the country every other week hmm

COCKadoodledooo Mon 08-Apr-13 09:01:13

To actually respond to the thread... blush

I work for a charity. Apparently people who work for charities should be happy with crap pay because that's their vocation hmm Our staff in direct contact with service users have to be counsellors/teachers/social workers/many other things beside. Ok they don't have to be massively academically qualified but many are, and are paid less than 20k for a 37.5 hour week, with antisocial hours an added perk. But hey, that's what working for a charity's about right?

Again though we stay for the moment that someone turns their life around, that's what makes it worthwhile.

Want2bSupermum Mon 08-Apr-13 18:24:02

doodledooo Totally agree with you regarding charity work.

WRT pressure. When happens if a teacher doesn't meet their targets? In my field if you don't meet your targets you are looking for another job pronto. Added to that we are put on a curve so even if I meet my targets I might be classified as in the bottom 20% or even 40%. If you are in the bottom 20% you need to find a job ASAP before they fire you and if you are in the next group up you carefully consider your options because your pay raise will be zero and you are not eligble for a bonus.

Bodicea Mon 08-Apr-13 19:04:44

It basically takes a year to train to be a teacher as all you need is a degree in something that is totally irrelevant. So post grad it may be ( unless you do a b ed) but anything that takes only a tear to train in can't be that hard.

TroublesomeEx Mon 08-Apr-13 19:11:08

Bodicea I actually think that the one year teacher training is ridiculous and no where near long enough. It doesn't really matter what your UG degree is in if you teach primary because you teach the full curriculum so having an English degree is nice, but not relevant for teaching numeracy or science. At secondary you have to have a degree in a national curriculum subject and you train to teach that subject.

I did my PGCE at a well regarded university and focused very much on methods of assessment and fullfilling Ofsted's requirement. It didn't really include any teaching of teaching, next to nothing on SEN but a heck of a lot on fulfilling statutory requirements.

It felt like a bit of a car crash, tbh, and I did a year of supply before I looked to undertake my NQT because I felt that the course completely unprepared anyone for the responsibility of classroom teaching. So I don't agree that anything that only takes a year to train for can't be that hard, I think the training is inadequate.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 08-Apr-13 19:48:36

Bodicea

Please please please try it.

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