Online dating - 'No brats in tow please' from a mid-40s male. Seriously??

(179 Posts)
Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 20:02:53

The following from the page of a slightly pudgy, looks 45-years old plus loser '42 year old' 'commodities trader':

'I'm looking for fun/ friendship/relationship, but am looking for an independent woman who can do 50:50, especially financially. No freeloaders please. No 'worn the t-shirt' types (but who've still failed to learn from mistakes & blame everyone else, but themselves). No 'free dinner/drink ticket' types. No 'baggage/brats in tow' types (do you really think a man wants someone else's mistakes or left overs to bother with? Get a reality check, pleaze). And no 'cheap easy trashy commodity' types. I could go on, and lament sometimes. Just someone who is honest and down to earth, but has moderate style, finesse and poise (plus can pay her own way in life, or did I already say that. Lol). Simple basics can go a long way. '

I have only dipped my toe in the water of OD and already realised it;s not for me. All blokes who expect your knickers to drop off at the mere prospect of hooking up with him, or like this guy, sort of 'don't bother me if you have ANY baggage at all' even though at my age I must surely reasonably expect that any woman of appropriate age will have at least a failed relationship or a kid or two.

'No baggage/brats in tow types (do you really think a man wants someone else's mistakes or left overs to bother with?...'

What a charmer.

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 20:04:56

Clearly new to online dating. Ignore and move on there are plenty to choose from smile

Vicky2011 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:04:57

Well, in his defence, he has saved any sane woman the bother of getting in touch

ChasingSquirrels Thu 04-Apr-13 20:05:30

stops the game playing though - he doesn't get intelligent women, intelligent women don't get to waste their time on him - win/win!

sapphirestar Thu 04-Apr-13 20:06:57 shock

I think I'd meet him just to give a good slap for calling my dd a mistake or a leftover.

I'm irrationally cross at this, how very fucking DARE he??!!

BigGiantCowWithAKnockKnockTail Thu 04-Apr-13 20:07:04

Wow, he's a catch. ANd what Vicky said

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 20:07:48

The best bit is that he says he's a 'commodities trader'. And is '42'. I know plenty of traders and all of them over the age of about 24 couldn't give a toss about the financial status of their potential girlfriends - because they're very well paid! So long as the girlfriend is good looking/intelligent/a bimbo who hangs on their every word (delete as appropriate), they don't care!

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 20:08:39

Don't know if this will work but here he is the knobhead

Softlysoftly Thu 04-Apr-13 20:08:44

That's shock he can't spell please!

AnOeufUniversallyEggnowledged Thu 04-Apr-13 20:09:21

He's posted it as a joke surely? (Not that it's funny! )

CruCru Thu 04-Apr-13 20:09:58

He's done you a favour. You'll leave that one where he is.

Link just takes you to the main page. sad

PeneloPeePitstop Thu 04-Apr-13 20:11:05

Mmmmm whatta catch...

thebody Thu 04-Apr-13 20:11:05

Hilarious sense of humour perhaps?? Or maybe not!

chimchar Thu 04-Apr-13 20:12:19

Ooooooh. He sounds like a complete twat.

Maybe hes a really lovely genuine guy, but he's had a bet with someone that he will never get a date on tinterweb, and he had to sabotage his own advert to win the bet? grin

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Thu 04-Apr-13 20:12:23

I just can't understand why he's still single!

KatyTheCleaningLady Thu 04-Apr-13 20:13:47

I always had a rule of avoiding anyone with anything negative in their profiles. Even if it only said "no game-players, please."

Negativity of that sort if a huge red flag and I move on.

That man has more baggage than a bellhop.

chimchar Thu 04-Apr-13 20:13:51

Link to the main page for me too. There will be a load of threads from dhs tomorrow saying "my wife has been on a dating website....when i confronted her, she said it was a link on mn sad"

AmberLeaf Thu 04-Apr-13 20:13:59

Who would reply to that?

redskyatnight Thu 04-Apr-13 20:14:00

Well I actually know a couple of women who would probably find this refreshing and honest and might well reply. They are ones who don't have children or any desire to have any and don't enjoy spending time with others' children. I'd say this isn't too bad for on-line dating - he's absolutely up front about what he wants. I'd rather that than waste my time answering as a single mum.

MadameOvary Thu 04-Apr-13 20:14:22

"Commodities Trader"
His specialist "commodity" is clearly sewage...

ChasingDogs Thu 04-Apr-13 20:15:13

Meh, if he can attract a woman with that mass of unresolved issues they deserve each other.

Sunnywithshowers Thu 04-Apr-13 20:15:24

What an absolute prize... arsehole.

OD isn't all bad - I met my DH on Yahoo dating. And he's nothing like that bell whiff.

SirBoobAlot Thu 04-Apr-13 20:15:32

I just can't understand why the women aren't fawning over him...

Goodadvice1980 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:16:27

Try another link OP, I can't wait to see what this tosser looks like!

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Thu 04-Apr-13 20:17:01

HOW is he still single. Wow. What a catch.

'I'm looking for sex, but am looking for someone who won't actually want a relationship as such. You must have money because I won't so much as treat you to a coffee, no, I will take out a calculator in the restaurant and work it out down to the last breadstick. I don't want to hear anything about your life or your history cos I'm not interested. I want you smiley and peppy at all times and willing to take responsibility for any shitty way a man has treated you, cos, well, I will too and you'd better never think it was my fault. Did I mention that you'll be paying for dinner? I want you to have lived in a box until I came along and have nothing about you that makes you a well rounded human being. Nobody in your life so that it is totally empty without me. And no children (do you really think I want to have your attention off me for a moment? Get a reality check, pleaze). And dress like a nun, so no other man will look your way, but make no mistake, I will expect instant sex from you. I could go on, but you have already gathered that I am a gigantic tool. Just someone who is a mug, but has a good body (plus can pay her own way in life and mine, or did I already say that. Lol). Your cash can go a long way. '

WildlingPrincess Thu 04-Apr-13 20:17:06

He'll soon get snapped up grin

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 20:18:19

He sounds like a cock.

Sadly I would bet he will get quite a few replies.

CheCazzo Thu 04-Apr-13 20:18:45

Commodities trader? grin

Orange juice is a commodity. Bacon is a commodity. He's a shopkeeper and can't afford to buy you a drink!

MadameOvary Thu 04-Apr-13 20:19:02

Translation: I am a selfish manchild who doesn't want to spend my money on anyone except myself and possibly some sexy underwear for my burd.
Wot a catch!

catsmother Thu 04-Apr-13 20:19:24

That comes across as horribly arrogant, very rude and crass but at least it saves women from wasting their time with him.

However, I'm not sure it isn't worse to start dating someone who seems nice and normal, who claimed to be open minded to the idea of a woman with children, who draws you in emotionally - and into bed - and who then, a few weeks/months later drops you like a hot potato "because" he "can't cope" with the notion of you having had "another man's kids" - as if it was something I revealed as a surprise down the line. Which happened to me in the past - more than once.

Pigsmummy Thu 04-Apr-13 20:19:26

Keep looking, there are some nice ones, I have a friend who met her husband and had a baby with an online date, she was 42 when they met. Eharmony is meant to be ok. This guy will be single for a long time or changing his profile soon. Get a close friend to check out your profile for you to make sure that you are attracting the right sorts and stay safe when meeting up in RL.

MadameOvary Thu 04-Apr-13 20:20:51

Hecsy that's genius - OP please respond in kind using this post!

What age range is he seeking?

MadameOvary Thu 04-Apr-13 20:24:45

I met my DP on MatchAffinity btw - am constantly amazed that I met such a normal bloke online. Six months on and his murky past/weirdness/unappealing kinks have yet to materialise unlike all the other nutjobs I have had the misfortune to be in a relationship with grin

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 20:28:02

I met my OH online 3 1/2 yrs ago.

Really though is it fair to try to publicly humiliate this guy?

He may not be your cup of tea but he's not hurting anyone - he's just trying to go on a date.

How would any of us feel if our profile was posted on a chat forum and ridiculed?

LemonPeculiarJones Thu 04-Apr-13 20:29:14

Words fail me. What a repellant little tick of a man.

manicinsomniac Thu 04-Apr-13 20:35:09

I think his profile is absolutely fine and it's very unfair to ridicule him for it.

He wants to attract a certain type of person, what would be the point in writing things to attract someone he isn't interested in. he's being honest, upfront and direct - probably the best way to get a desirable response.

Obviously he wouldn't be for any of us because we have kids but there are lots of people who haven't and don't want any.

VelvetSpoon Thu 04-Apr-13 20:36:36

Catsmother I completely agree!

The majority of men who do OD are bullshitters, fantasists, narcissists, commitment-phobes, or a combination of all of the above with massive chips on their shoulders. I say this as a veteran of many years of online dating, during which I have met precisely 2 normal, well adjusted men. I'd far rather the knobbers say stuff like this in their profiles...saves us wasting any time on them!

MintyyAeroEgg Thu 04-Apr-13 20:40:41

Gossipmonster - he is a misogynistic twat who completely deserves to be ridiculed and ripped to shreds!

Ridersofthestorm Thu 04-Apr-13 20:40:49

Hmmm something tells me this little charmer is going to be single for some time. He sounds a treat, sorry I mean DICKHEAD!

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 20:43:38

You've met him have you MintyAeroEgg?

You know his history?

What led him to post?

SamuelWestsMistress Thu 04-Apr-13 20:44:35

Well it's obvious why he's remained single into his 40s! Gads. What a toad.

Nah manic - it's not the upfront, don't want kids nature that makes him unsuitable

It's the fact he's a charmless, miserly, mean spirited, superficial cunt that's the problem wink

nokidshere Thu 04-Apr-13 20:45:57

I can't see what the problem is myself. He obviously will only attract like minded people and presumably that's his aim.

If someone wants to,date him then she probably deserves him!

MintyyAeroEgg Thu 04-Apr-13 20:46:25

This is surreal Gossipmonster - no of course I haven't met him.

I think what's really notable about him is that instead of listing his positive qualities that would make him desirable as a mate he instead lists all the qualities he doesn't want women to have.

Über-cuntishness personified.

BinksToEnlightenment Thu 04-Apr-13 20:46:41

Well at least he is honest. Shame he's only got being a spaff stain to be honest about.

Sailormercury Thu 04-Apr-13 20:47:44

He is truly a prince among men grin

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 20:50:38

Well how can you possibly judge him then? On a paragraph (I am guessing I haven't looked) on a dating site and think he deserved to be "ripped to shreds" hmm.

He can't defend himself can he? Because he doesn't know what ridicule he is being held up for.

aurynne Thu 04-Apr-13 20:56:58

I can't see the point of ridiculing men who show themselves exactly as they are. This can only force these guys to hide behind lovely profiles, for the unsuspecting women just o find after a number of awful dates.

I agree that this guy's profile distils negativity, and even I, who never wanted kids and was using OD for a while, and in theory would have ticked all the boxes for this man, would not have contacted him, because his profile comes up as incredibly negative and he is not offering even a glimpse of the kind of things he DOES like (if any).

However, I would be grateful if all men in OD sites were as straight-forward and blunt as this one. Do you realise just how much easier the job would be if men (and women) were honest about themselves like this?

thezebrawearspurple Thu 04-Apr-13 21:02:44

At least he's direct and honest. I'm sure that there's a woman out there with an equally bitter list and they'll be perfect for each othersmile

I feel a bit sorry for him, sounds like he's been bitten a few too many times.

FairyJen Thu 04-Apr-13 21:07:27

I vote we all respond an set him up on loads dates where he ends up sat on his own like the toss pot he is!

Sailormercury Thu 04-Apr-13 21:13:01

I bet he gives great sad face FairyJen grin just like in the daily mail.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 04-Apr-13 21:16:42

I did online dating for a while lots of twats like him amazing how many traders are about too straight away that claim was off putting

SanctiMOMious Thu 04-Apr-13 21:18:10

wow. i live that he's advertising the fact that he's a dickhead. that's actually cobsiderate of him. wonder how many women thi.k he sounds nice. confused

pigletmania Thu 04-Apr-13 21:20:31

What a total utter twat, don't think he will have much success!

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Thu 04-Apr-13 21:23:17

Not understanding why people are defending someone who called the children of single mother's "someone else's mistakes or left overs" hmm

evansthebread Thu 04-Apr-13 21:28:52

Unfortunately, I know several blokes like this IRL. They usually manage to pull (bimbos mainly), but are soon single and looking again. They're always amazed at this and are never willing to shoulder any break-up blame.

I blame their mothers (who I've also had the misfortune to cross paths with).

MikeOxardAndWellard Thu 04-Apr-13 21:33:03

MadameOvary and Hecsy I genuinely laughed out loud. So true. What a total knob.

Ledkr Thu 04-Apr-13 21:33:24

I'd have to wind the fucker up and arrange to meet him by a penguin enclosure then watch him waiting grin

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 21:33:33

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

babybarrister Thu 04-Apr-13 21:37:51

There are loads of nice men out there on OD - I know various couples who met online and my DH was on there though that is not how I met him smile
Just move on and hope this charmer picks up crabsgrin

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 21:39:06

To answer an earlier question, he's looking for women 30-49

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 04-Apr-13 21:41:26


Sorry to be so quick on the delete button, but we don't really think it's on to 'out' this person so publicly (although he does sound like one to avoid!)

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 21:43:35

Fairyjen I was so tempted to respond posing as a child-free wmoan (in real life I am a single mum lawyer with good job, not bad looking size 10, financially independent etc.) just so I could meet up with this twat and then give him the bad news... but then I discovered I'd have to subscribe to to do so, and couldnt be arsed to part with the £12.99 even though it would probably be worth every penny.

I have heard that is one of the worst sites for general dickhead blokes as well as those already married and looking for a bit extra though.

I may have to get a cat. It's all too depressing.

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 21:44:00

Argh! woman not wmoan

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 21:45:10

RowanMumsnet, he's already 'out': he's posted this shit on a public forum himself! No actual RL names are involved.

babybarrister Thu 04-Apr-13 21:45:42

Oh please do meet him!!grin

MsAkimbo Thu 04-Apr-13 21:45:58

He sounds like a troll. Like, lives under a bridge and eats billygoats kind of troll.

What a fairytale...hmm

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 21:46:21

All sites have them.

You just wade through the chuff and eventually you meet a like minded soul smile

Tenacity Thu 04-Apr-13 21:46:41

At least he is honest. Any woman who contacts him knows exactly what she is getting into.
Although his language is abrasive and rude, the honesty is refreshing.

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 21:54:15

More red flags than an SWP meeting. Quite depressed that people are reading this nasty, biting, judgemental negativity as "honesty" actually. And we wonder why people end up in abusive relationships.

TartyMcTart Thu 04-Apr-13 21:55:16

Can't see the problem?

RunningAgain Thu 04-Apr-13 21:58:27

Don't fancy wading through the chuff...

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 22:00:34

Don't then?

No one is being forced.

RunningAgain Thu 04-Apr-13 22:02:03

Sorry was meant to be funny. I thought you meant chaff, but perhaps not smile

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 22:03:47

"wading through the chuff" grin

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 22:04:01

Sorry confused

RunningAgain Thu 04-Apr-13 22:04:35

Whereas I understand "chuff" to be a slang term for "vagina"

RunningAgain Thu 04-Apr-13 22:04:52

Sorry x post

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 22:05:31

I meant chaff ..... Honest ekk!

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 22:05:51

Gossipmonster are you this bloke?

I really can't see how anyone could 'defend' such twattish behaviour simply with a 'he's not here to defend himself'. This is how he chooses to present himself to the outside world. Online dating (or any dating) is all about presenting your best self. Ergo, this chap considers these comments a fair representation of his 'best self'.


xkittyx Thu 04-Apr-13 22:07:51

Honesty? Will, he's been honest that he's a total tool I guess....
I don't have children and don't want any but that man's phrasing would have me running a mile in the opposite direction, were I looking.

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 22:10:29

I wasn't defending him.

Just think its an unfair platform for him to be vilified on.

If some women came across as a complete slut would it be ok for a guy to post on a forum and everyone set dates up with her to see if she's as easy as she appears?

Hesterton Thu 04-Apr-13 22:13:02

Agree with gossipmonster.

Best thing he did was an honest profile like this. It could save any number of decent single women time and emotional energy. Leave him be, or he may change it then they won't know.

ravenAK Thu 04-Apr-13 22:14:38

He hasn't actually sold himself at all, has he, beyond being someone who claims online to be a commodities trader (so that's a bit vague & not terribly trustworthy) & has a penis?

Nothing about his own interests or what he has to offer.

I think him being a misogynist boor would be a deal-breaker anyway, but I just can't imagine him having much to talk about, or being any fun to hang out with.

I met my dh online. Within 3 conversations had decided to marry the poor bugger, just because he made me laugh, put me on my mettle & was generally interesting & a challenge.

This chap seems to be trying to present himself as a) wealthy & b) a bit of a ladykilling bastard. Neither actually rings terribly true though.

BadabingBadabong Thu 04-Apr-13 22:15:57

I've checked him out. He likes eating in weatherspoons, reads the daily mail, likes cereal for breakfast!!! A real catch.

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 22:17:15

Well I certainly haven't invited anyone to arrange a date with him Gossipmonster and now MN HQ has removed his username no one will be easily able to find him.

However, I do think that anyone who advertises his or herself pn a public forum broadcasting such offensive views can hardly expect the general viewing public to universally say 'well at least he's being honest'. If I were to set up a profile saying 'Guys, don't bother me unles you're white', I think people would be quite right to find that deeply offensive too.

You do not need to say 'Ladies get real, do you really think I want to take on someone else's kids?', you can just say 'I'm not interested in children and would prefer to meet someone without children.' Conveys the same message. Is fair. Doesn't make you sound like an utter utter twat.

Zilvernblue Thu 04-Apr-13 22:18:20

He sounds very aggressive and nasty. I'm trying it and I find it depressing, just how many nasty and deeply unattractive men are out there, waiting to pounce. I have a thread on my experiences in Relationships, but this gem came from an entirely, wrinkled elderly man who was clearly in his late 50s but claimed to be 46 (and messaged me, a woman 11/25 years younger (take your pick)).

"I'll probably get slated for this, but come on girls.. If you're in your 50's and dress like an old prude in sensible cardigans, then the chances are you'll have more in common with my mum than me, so I'm really not likely to be interested. Also, and I'm sorry to admit this but I'm a teeny bit shallow, and regardless how great your personality is, there's got to be some initial attraction".

YouTheCat Thu 04-Apr-13 22:19:44

Well just the 50:50 actually means 10:90 really - with him providing the 10% of input/paying for meals etc.

If he's a commodities broker I'm a shovel. hmm

Gossipmonster Thu 04-Apr-13 22:21:18

But if he wants to sound like an utter twat that's up to him. It's a free country.

You have to neither message him nor reply. You can block him.

It's unfair to put anyone up for teasing and vilification on a public forum, without their knowledge without them having the option to defend themselves.

I have seen a lot worse than he sounds.

Had guys send me a picture of their cock with no message.

I found that more offensive.

LooseyMy Thu 04-Apr-13 22:21:43

Fair dos, I'd rather him be honest so that I know to avoid him!

YouTheCat Thu 04-Apr-13 22:22:18

The grizzled old drunk from next door looked me up and down when we first met and pronounced 'she's got plenty of meat on her but she's okay' - very gracious of the wizened bugger. hmm Like I was going to fall into his arms and declare my undying love or something.

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 22:33:31

Gossipmonster I've had cock photos sent through private messaging on OD sites before and find that offensive, but much less so than seeing someone advertise his offensive views in public, which this bloke has. I'm not offering him up personally for vilification (as I have no idea who he is in RL), I'm offering him up as an example of a type.

AdmiralCurtain Thu 04-Apr-13 22:34:45

Mendi - The blokes an unpleasant sounding character and someone when I was online dating I would have skipped over his profile however I do not think:
If I were to set up a profile saying 'Guys, don't bother me unles you're white', I think people would be quite right to find that deeply offensive too.
Is quite the same as saying 'Ladies get real, do you really think I want to take on someone else's kids?' why can't someone be upfront about not wanting children - theirs or someone elses?
And as above - MN may have removed the details but you did post them, I think anyone doing that with a women's profile would have been quite rightly slated.
Don't like him - don't date him. I doubt he'd have many takers anyway.

AdmiralCurtain Thu 04-Apr-13 22:37:39

In fact - I find it quite offensive that you could possibly compare racist comments with a bloke who doesn't want to date a women with children (of any ethnicity)

ChippingInIsEggceptional Thu 04-Apr-13 22:44:45

What a twat. Still, at least it's clear he's a twat and you haven't had to spend anytime finding that out later!

YouTheCat Thu 04-Apr-13 22:46:36

Maybe his wife has found his dating profile and has changed it? grin

I do agree that at least you don't have to waste any time on this idiot though.

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 22:47:50

Ok then point taken re the racism element (though Radio 4 Today programme today reported that Manchester police is extending it's definition of hate crimes to those including crimes against cultural groups such as emos and punks - query whether this is any different to an offensive statement against a person for having children).

Let's say instead that someone's OD profile says 'ladies [or guys for that matter], seriously don't bother me if you're over 25, seriously, do you really think any man wants to deal with your excess flab and saggy tits? Get real!'

Is that ok? Or could that person just say 'I like young nubile bodies and that's all i'm interested in'? Conveys the same message, is less offensive to large swathes of that person's readership.

Alconleigh Thu 04-Apr-13 22:50:15

I am roaring at the idea of a trader who loves Wetherspoons. Er, right.

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 22:50:43

its not 'it's [blasted predictive text]

teacherandguideleader Thu 04-Apr-13 23:01:40

I once received this from someone who emailed me on an online dating website and I hadn't responded. I'm not sure what the etiquette is but I have always assumed that it wasn't necessary to respond to people you didn't want to meet.

'As I've not heard from you, I'm guessing you've read my email and I haven't caught your eye - that's fine if it is the case and I suppose you could be very busy and not gotten around to replying, but I guess I'm just a little bummed that you've not said something either way.

As someone who obviously isn't blessed with the dashing good looks of someone who acts on Hollyoaks, I'm kinda used to having my messages read and ignored on here. However, when I take a good period of my own time to write you a message that does try to reach out to you, show how we are looking for the the same thing and is not entirely composed in txt speak that is then not even replied to to with a couple of polite sentences to inform your disinterest, it kinda gets to you. You genuinely sound like a lovely girl - I only write my messages to girls who sound like yourself, because I think we sound like there could be something there. It makes me a very sad little panda when I get nothing back - a polite no is better than that.

Anyways, if you haven't deleted this after reading half of this, I'll leave you with this : . I try hard to make well-composed messages to genuinely nice-sounding girls on here like yourself, but you probably get a whole bunch of messages every day from blokes like myself. Take a couple of minutes every day to reply to the ones you don't like that at least try to make an effort, that's all.

I apologise for the rant, but this seems to happen a lot to me at least and I thought you might be different - I really felt like I was the kind of guy you are looking for'.

emsibub Thu 04-Apr-13 23:01:54

Mistakes or leftovers. That's horrific.

Mendi Thu 04-Apr-13 23:07:45

teacher that genuinely makes me feels sad though - although not right for you, that guy was clearly really keen for some company and had invested something into contacting you however needy he sounded.

I think I would have just sent a couple of lines saying something like 'I don't think we're looking for the same thing but I wish you well in your search.'

teacherandguideleader Thu 04-Apr-13 23:14:40

It is a difficult one - I messaged people and didn't get a reply and was actually relieved to have no reply than a 'thanks but no thanks'. I'm not sure what the correct way is.

He was very odd, I actually know of two people who went on a date with him - he targeted teachers in a very small radius.

Letticetheslug Thu 04-Apr-13 23:17:11

he's a wanker, metaphoricallyand litera lly ...hmmm, wonder why he's still single?!

Loulybelle Thu 04-Apr-13 23:22:41

Wow what a prick, hes such a prick, i'd give him a virtual earful for referring to peoples kids as "Mistakes" or "left-overs" by informing him of this:

"No woman wants the sloppy seconds of a woman whos seen the light"

AdmiralCurtain Thu 04-Apr-13 23:34:38

Mendi Again to reiterate I am not saying this blokes profile was anything but odd to me however:
Ok then point taken re the racism element (though Radio 4 Today programme today reported that Manchester police is extending it's definition of hate crimes to those including crimes against cultural groups such as emos and punks - query whether this is any different to an offensive statement against a person for having children). Yes I would query this - do you seriously think that a hate crime is the same as someone disliking children? That definition was made because a young girl died. Do not try and make them the same thing. I am sure that family would have preferred the people involved in that situation to have gone online instead and said 'seriously don't bother me if your an emo'.

If someone doesn't fancy my saggy tits well more fool them. Again, why find it offensive - just ignore, or find it offensive - and then ignore, that person can have as many unrealistic ambitions of what kind of woman would date him as he wants.

This is a particularly mean spirited thread. I'm pretty sure we could go online and find any number of profiles for both men and women who come across as less than appealing. But there's also lots of stories of people who have found lovely partners through online dating.

So this guy is a dickhead, ignore him and move on to the next profile.

MintyyAeroEgg Thu 04-Apr-13 23:54:36

I disagree that this is a mean spirited thread.

OP is sharing with us an unusual experience she has had today. She read something unquestionably misogynistic online and wanted to discuss it with other people.

Why is it "mean spirited"? We don't know this individual. Are we not allowed to say we dislike the way some people come across any more?

Does Mumsnet really have to become that bland? For fear of offending someone who has already said he doesn't consider the vast majority of us worthy of his company?


Gossipmonster Fri 05-Apr-13 00:01:53


REALLY?! We post anonymously FFS?

This guy will have a photo - and a profile offering personal messages which he will not have bargained on getting msges from "outraged" on here from.

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 05-Apr-13 00:30:33

Re the wife changing it,

I've checked and its defo not one of my master pieces

Mendi Fri 05-Apr-13 05:39:42

Gossipmonster I think you're completely missing the point. Yes, this person has a photo on his profile, and an anonymous username.

If anyone, including MNers, posts a photo on an online forum together with a public statement of views highly likely to be found offensive by many people, then they absolutely should expect some messages saying so.

Although, as I have made clear, I have not contacted him and not haveI encouraged others to do so. I am posting about having seen this on MN as a way of discussing with others likely to share my views, rather than engage with the individual himself, which would obviously be a pointless exercise.

If you hold yourself out as holding offensive views, you can expect to be held to account for them.

MadBraLady Fri 05-Apr-13 07:36:24

On reflection I don't think Gossip is completely missing the point actually - he does have a right to make himself sound like a twat, it's true. But free speech cuts both ways.

Teacher that one would have slightly freaked me out. confused That's not "needy", that reads more like sort of submissive controlling, if there is such a thing. "A very sad little panda" indeed.

exoticfruits Fri 05-Apr-13 07:44:35

I think it is quite useful- you know not to touch with a barge pole and don't waste time meeting.
The alarm bells ring with that one, teacherandguideleader, best not to respond at all.

Mugofteaforme Fri 05-Apr-13 09:35:28

Well besides "No baggage/brats in tow" types he very clearly identifies a pretty large cohort of the Internet Dating population that MOST men would avoid.

handcream Fri 05-Apr-13 09:49:06

At least he is being honest! I have a friend who joined a dating agency at 40. She is very pretty so the agency took her. They just had too many 40+ women on their books and men of 40+ wanted to meet younger women.

Is that fair - not really but it is reality. What does a 25 year old for example have in common with a 45 year old. I dont know really but this is how it is.

And a lot of people dont want to take on other people's children. Again i think that is reality. You might not like it or want to meet someone like but again its life. And why do people want to see a picture of him? What has that got to do with anything....

bigkidsdidit Fri 05-Apr-13 09:59:17

a commodities trader who eats in Wetherspoons? Ha ha! no chance.

manicinsomniac Fri 05-Apr-13 10:01:33

Re the racist comment analogy, I don't know what a site would do if such a comment lots of dating sites ask you to tick boxes for which ethnicities you would like to date. Someone would be perfectly free to only tick the white box or the black box etc. I'm not even sure that wold be racist, just the some people are attracted to a 'type'. Is that really so different from writing in words that you'd like to date only a certain colour?

I know a woman who wrote on her dating profile 'If you can't spell or use decent grammar please don't bother to respond, I don't date ignorant men.' She's now married to a guy she met on there who found it hilarious and has similar peeves. When she told me what she'd done I was quite shocked and thought it was rude but, secretly, I think I'd struggle to be with someone who didn't speak correctly and therefore perhaps it was a good thing she had the guts to say so!

handcream Fri 05-Apr-13 10:01:38

I am sure he will get a few positive replies to be honest. Maybe from women with no children themselves.

After what he has said he is looking for what single mother would want to meet him! But I do still think he has been clear what he is looking for...

manicinsomniac Fri 05-Apr-13 10:03:01

... sorry, first sentence should read "I don't know what a site would do is such a comment were made but lots of dating sites ...

not sure where those words went!

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 10:04:25

Yes. I think he's OBVIOUSLY a total arsehole, but at least his profile reflects who he is and what he's really after. From what I read, it's a shame that more don't.

Can anybody help me think of a screen name for a dating site that conveys that I'm independent, not about to provide free sexual services. Regalitarian came in to my head. Not sure though. It's not hitting the right note.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 10:06:41

handcream, so it's the women who get sent away from that agency. Can they not deliver harsh truths to the men. Listen, 25 year olds don't want 45 years olds unless he has movie star good looks and charisma to spare

YouTheCat Fri 05-Apr-13 10:09:47

SantciMOMious, what about 'GetYourHandOffMyLeg'? Or is that too long for a screen name? grin

Mugofteaforme Fri 05-Apr-13 10:12:29

It's been a long while since I looked into Plenty of Fish but I remember being shocked as to how many racist profiles were on there, arguably the strangest were the one's who not date anyone within their own race, but i digress, sorry.

expatinscotland Fri 05-Apr-13 10:17:30

I went out with a 'pay your own way', 50/50 guy. Once. He was a twat there was a reason he was single.

manicinsomniac Fri 05-Apr-13 10:28:04

I would much prefer a 50/50 'pay your own way' kind of guy expat! I can't stand it when guys assume or feel they should pay all the time.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 10:30:32

My x is a misogynist who believes all women are freeloaders. He bullied me into giving up my job so that he could hate me for wanting him for a meal ticket (i was an unpaid servant/childcarer 24/7 so if I'd wanted an easy life I would have gone back down the mine, ykwim).

Anyway, the irony is with these men that they often end up doing very well out of women because whatever poor soul goes on a date with this man she'll be anxious to prove that she's not a freeloader like all these other mean women who 've used him.

YouTheCat Fri 05-Apr-13 10:31:49

I think it very much depends how the 50:50 thing is presented. If it's a matter of them getting the calculator out if you go for a meal, run a mile. If it's more a 'you pay for this one and I'll pay next time' then that can be fair enough, if there is going to be a next time.

YouTheCat Fri 05-Apr-13 10:32:57

Sanct, I think I said upthread that if a bloke says he wants to be 50:50 it will usually end up more 90:10 in reality.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 10:33:20

I know it's oldfashioned, but the last guy I went out with, he willingly have paid for everything (although knowing i'd paid for babysitters though). I did buy drinks and the occasional meal. Well, I'd say i paid about 15% of the time, and he would always thank me. Even though he paid most of the time! he didn't make a big deal of it. He was generous. He way of not making it an issue was attractive too. He was clearly a generous person who didn't mind being generous to people he valused and wanted in his life. I do think it's all connected now. Mean with money. Mean full stop.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 05-Apr-13 10:33:39

Well, at least it's an honest, upfront advert and anyone who goes on a date will know exactly what they are getting.
Their choice whether to laugh or get in contact.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 10:36:00

90:10 the woman stumping up to prove she's not a freeloader??!!

with my x that i lived with, I got caught up in that game for a while. Trying to prove to him that not all women were x,y or z. God. I felt like I had to be an Ambassador for women to prove all his prejudices wrong. He played me like a fiddle. I was paying his council tax, and for groceries. My name not on the mortgage. One lives and learns.

expatinscotland Fri 05-Apr-13 10:45:03

I went out with another 'earn your crust' type of guy. He wanted me to work illegally and have wages paid into his account. Haahaa. He was all about women 'earning a crust' and doing all the work in the home. No kids, of course. He went to kerb quickly, too.

CabbageLeaves Fri 05-Apr-13 10:51:15

I agree with not identifying the catch of the year. However his own remarks do ask for a good vilifying. Vilify them but not the bloke wink

handcream Fri 05-Apr-13 10:52:17

Sanct. What was happening at the dating agency (and this is a very well known one - two of my friends met their DH's there) is that they couldnt offer 40+ women the dates they were looking for. There were just too many 40+ women and not enough men wanting to meet them.

Whether you think that is right or wrong is by the by. Two colleagues at work have divorced and are now with women half their age and I work in a really boring industry!

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 11:04:28

depressing handcream.

yeah expat, those types never recognise the work a woman OUGHT to do like breathing at home as 'work'

handcream Fri 05-Apr-13 11:47:50

I am not sure it is Sanct tbh. Very attractive people or rich people have huge advantages in life when trying to find a partner or dates.

Whether they end up being happier in the end is another question.

My friend is very attractive at 40 so the agency took her. Some would say it wasnt fair that they didnt take all the women at 40+.

TBH - I would say they acted professionally, it would be far easier to have taken her money.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 12:01:54

oh i understand it. it's jyst depressing because i had thought that maybe a people -run agency that conducted interviews was the way to go.... clearly not.

not ALL men in their 40s and beyond belueve they could pull a much younger woman. some (?!) would have the self awareness to realuse they are fi.ding it challenging full stop.

TunipTheVegedude Fri 05-Apr-13 12:06:02

Some agencies don't take men below a certain height, because experience has shown it is very hard to find them dates.

MiaowTheCat Fri 05-Apr-13 13:07:16

He's put what he doesn't want in his ad - he's not wasting your time, stringing you along or anything like that... well apart from the hours you've chosen to waste yourselves vilifying him on here.

Not everyone would want to take on someone else with kids, and by association an ex-partner and other parent to those kids who may or may not feature in their lives as well... hell, with the shit that gets hurled about step parents on here - I'd have serious second, third and fourth thoughts about dating a guy with kids myself.

He's nicely provided you with an "I am a twat - avoid" sign on his profile... I'd rather the twats of the world did that than string someone along and then prove twattiness later and more destructively.

ComposHat Fri 05-Apr-13 13:50:39

I'm sure the bloke is now in a happy and mutually satisfying relationship... with his wrist.

JakeBullet Fri 05-Apr-13 13:52:50

Wow! He sounds a real catch. Where do I sign up? hmm

sannaville Fri 05-Apr-13 13:59:52

Don't be too disheartened OP my cousin is an air hostess and due to her hours finds it hard to meet men she started OD when she was 27 met a lovely bloke they've since bought a house together and are now engaged and its been their 5 yr anniversary

handcream Fri 05-Apr-13 16:15:14

I believe air hostesses are one of the top occupations that men want to meet! Did anyone see the Sex and the City eposide where Miranda went speed dating and said she was a lawyer. The men were clearly not interested until she changed her job to flight attendant!

TheBigJessie Fri 05-Apr-13 16:33:01

At least he's brutally honest. If he said "prefer no children", some women might think it was a loose preference, and he might be willing to compromise. And so on.

I'm damn sure he's not a commodities trader though...

comingintomyown Fri 05-Apr-13 17:13:26

Sorry I dont think the word honesty covers such a revolting set of criteria for a date. The bloke sounds like an utter turd

lljkk Fri 05-Apr-13 17:31:31

Now now, selfish people should be allowed to seek love & nookie, too. At least we can rest assured they've no intention of breeding.

Lara2 Fri 05-Apr-13 19:24:44

My boss met her DH online and he's just lovely. She did have to run the danger of local parents seeing her profile and contacting her ( teacher) grin

Mendi Fri 05-Apr-13 19:31:38

Oh dear handcream. I am a lawyer. hmm

handcream Fri 05-Apr-13 20:04:26

Its interesting isnt it. Someone is saying that 40+ women shouldnt be at a disadvantage. Being one myself I would agree!

However, havent we all met friends and family who are very picky about who they want to meet. Height for women seems to come up again and again.

I have female friends who are very particular about who they want to meet or very defensive about their children to any potential date. The thing is when you meet someone for the first time. Well, they dont know your children or even care about them in anyway. Its you they want to meet.

Being perfectly honest, I couldnt take on someone else's children. I would rather stay on my own. Lots of people feel the same I think. Its just not politically correct to say that.

Viviennemary Fri 05-Apr-13 20:13:39

It's not very polite of him to put it in such a way. But people shouldn't expect everyone to love kids. And spelling this out does save somebody wasting time with him. Where is that Mr perfect everyone wants. Does all the housework gets up in the night with crying baby, handsome, considerate, never loses his temper. No wonder so many people are still looking.

VelvetSpoon Fri 05-Apr-13 20:16:33

I'm a lawyer too.

I scare the shit out of most men I meet. Ones who are attracted to me are always much worse off financially than me. Or massively my inferior intellectually.

Ones who are my financial and intellectual equal tend to think I'm a common chav, and wouldn't look twice at me.

I downplay my job as much as possible, but it still makes little difference to my success (or rather massive lack thereof!)

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 20:18:37

look, if any of you have met any lovely men who were perfect but too small, send them to me. handcream, i guess i don't know how men get away with it, dating younger women. it's not because we women prefer old men. all things being equal i mean. you meet a man who is attractive, good humoured, good company, decent......... but 10 years older than you, or 15. tell me, hand on heart that you wouldn't all prefer he was much closer to your own age. this dating older men bullshit ripples outwards.

I am begining to think i have to flirt more in rl. i'm no beauty but men are 'nice' to me in rl, a few open doors and smile for no reason, so reading this horror stories I think I need to flirt more and be less shy. Ask out men in coffee shops confused That kind of thing. I remember once a man asked me about washing powder in tesco and I thought sexist fuckwit and I replied I don't know, i outsource my laundry. Maybe he was single. At least he didn't ask me about toilet rolls. I outsource that too :-p

handcream Fri 05-Apr-13 20:19:56

I am going to get flamed here and I am a full time working Mum in a well paid role.

I think men generally want to feel that they are in charge (at least at first!). My DH said that when he first met me all I talked about was work! I didnt think I did!

And for all those lawyers - do what Miranda did and pretend to be a air hostess!

Anyway he said he knew that there was someone else lurking in there so it worked out in the end!

handcream Fri 05-Apr-13 20:24:19

You the know the washing powder question. Well, it could have been a chat up line of some sort. After all after your early 20's where DO you meet men....

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 20:29:48

Velvetspoon, would the being worse off than you financially really bother you.. if he worked for a charity for example. I know a lovely man (married) who works as a carer. He has a lot of interesting hobbies, but his basic job is being a carer. A nicer man you couldn't meet.

The brains thing, that wouldn't work.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 20:35:26

is it the salary or the brains that scare off potential suitors? obviously it's pointless to lie. But maybe it might be worth saying you work part time, or say with a self-deprecating smile, that you don't earn as much as people might think... or, admit to a good salary but say you have debts. I am grasping at straws here. You don't want to scare away intelligent men, but it is possible that intelligent decent men could be a little intimidated by intelligent women. Obviously imo women are often far more intelligent than their fathers/partners/bosses give them credit for, butyou have the proof that you're no slouch.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 20:37:59

or would that compromise your integrity? i'm not taking the piss there. you shouldn't have to pretend to be worth less.

VelvetSpoon Fri 05-Apr-13 20:49:54

Sanctimomious honestly I couldn't care less what men earn or what they do for a living, I grew up in a council house and money really isn't a big deal to me smile Apart from once in my 20s (I'm 40 now) every man I've been involved with has earned less than me. That almost always bothers the men, either from the outset or if not then over time.

I don't really talk about what I earn, but once men know what I do, that gives them a fair idea. Plus I have a fair sized house and again that intimidates most men I've dated in recent years (who are either living with parents/in small rented flats post-divorce).

I have lied about my job in the past, but it makes me feel sad doing that, I'm really proud of what I achieved. I already hide the fact I have a degree from Cambridge from most people (and have never told any of my dates in the last 3 years) because of the (adverse) reaction I get about it hmm

lemonmuffin Fri 05-Apr-13 21:02:26

His language leaves a lot to be desired, but isn't he just being honest?

I wouldn't consider someone who has young children living with them as long-term partner material. I have my own child. I don't want to bring up someone else's.

Just as I wouldnt be too keen on someone who was overweight, middle-aged, bald etc either.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 21:22:06

I know what you mean, it's an inequality from the getgo which is less than ideal. you lie, you tell the truth, you can't win!

if it's any consolation, I don't have a degree, I do part time admin and i am hoping hoping to buy a tiny house later in the year.

But I often find that men who have been similarly unsuccessful in a professional way are a bit thick!!!! I shouldn't intimidate men, nothing about me is intimidating. But yet.... roll up roll up, I said ROLL UP ROLL UP ok, nobody out there grin

SO, qualified, unqualified, earning a lot, earning a little.... confused some men might look at me and think well, she's looking for a meal ticket (because i earn so little) but I am a master at cloth cutting and I don't need a ticket.

SanctiMOMious Fri 05-Apr-13 21:23:40

can you go to loads of college reunions, or organise one? at least they'll think it's no big deal to have been to cambridge!

VelvetSpoon Fri 05-Apr-13 21:33:42

Oh god that meal ticket thing riles me! I don't know one single woman however much or little she earns who is looking for a man to 'keep' her, far better earn your own money (my dad taught me that one!) yet most men seem convinced that's what we's so silly!

I never had anyone interested in me for my entire 3 years at uni (was far too common and chavvy for all the public school types!) so I might give any reunion a miss...besides from what I have seen on FB, most of the blokes have aged really badly so I don't feel I'm losing out grin

IfNotNowThenWhen Fri 05-Apr-13 21:49:13

I kind of wish that every guy I have ever dated from online had had a profile that said something like:
" I like to go out with single mums 5-10 years older than me, because they are very self sufficient and good in bed , but actually, I am a bit of a man child who can't really cope with any kid of responsibility, and I spend all my money on Netflix and beer/pot/drums so won't be able to take you to a nice restaurant, ever.
Oh, and I have just moved back in with my parents, because I am, like, between flats. I get on with them great though. I will move out soon. Or , like, at some point. And, by the way, I am still hung up on my ex girlfriend, so, you know, when she decides she wants me back (and she is 23, so might actually be that naive) I am off like a dirty shirt.
Would have saved me some time.

YouTheCat Fri 05-Apr-13 23:13:35

Do you know what? Online, at evening classes, whatever but find someone to be friends with first.

I met my dp online 4 years ago. We had a common interest, got on well, had a giggle and then 3 years ago we got together. Couldn't be happier but it was so much easier being friends already as we had plenty to talk about.

When we finally met up, it was about seeing if there was that spark as well and there was. If there hadn't been, we'd still be friends.

babybarrister Sat 06-Apr-13 00:08:30

I am a divorce lawyer but that did not put off DH gringrin
Honestly there ate good men out there smile

Mendi Sat 06-Apr-13 11:44:27

Did you meet your DH online, babybarrister? If so, were you upfront about your career?

Genuinely interested in this thing about men preferring air hostesses to lawyers (or any other 'high-powered' career). I would have thought men - particularly the ones worried about 'freeloaders' - would find successful career with good earning power an attractive point in a woman. But it seems they find it intimidating.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

WallyBantersJunkBox Sat 06-Apr-13 12:28:56

Velvetspoon you sound like me. I came from a council house background, my DB and I were the first in the family to ever go to Uni.

I went to a particularly "Horse and Hound" type Uni. I met a guy and got engaged and he constantly reminded me of how much richer he was than me (his family had a thatched 5 bed cottage, my parents bought a 3 bed semi new build by then) and I felt out of it because I never had the free cash to join in a lot of the activities so out of pride I kind of pretended I wasn't interested, and wanted to stay on the outskirts. I broke up with him as I felt like I dated him to make my parents happy, and he made me feel so under confidant. His family looked down on me too.

So whereas my friends all hooked up in Uni with their life partners I found myself single.

I've never really been able to find that match for me, a working class boy done good, with enough intelligence to know how to act in different situations but with roots and sense of humour in reality IYSWIM. I've always put myself down and punched below my weight because there's more chance of. Statistical success.

TheBigJessie Sat 06-Apr-13 14:25:16

Sorry I dont think the word honesty covers such a revolting set of criteria for a date. The bloke sounds like an utter turd

Precisely! He is an utter turd, and now we all know! That's why it's so great. If I was a single woman with no children, I might contact "no kids preferred" men, but I would never ever, in a million years contact "do you really think a man wants someone else's mistakes or left overs to bother with? Get a reality check, pleaze)" man. D'you see?

VelvetSpoon Sat 06-Apr-13 15:29:26

WallyBantersJunkBox I relate to that completely! I was never quite good enough for any of the guys at uni, and everyone I've dated/had relationships with has been in the construction trade (builders, plumbers, electricians, roofers, scaffolders, groundworkers, etc) or worked with cars. None that intelligent and yes, probably all below my weight. I am conscious of dumbing myself down a LOT.

The added complication for me I think is that I idolised my dad (who was a Russian literature reading car mechanic, and who died when I was 25) and have issues with men who don't do 'practical' jobs - though I am trying to overcome that...!

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 06-Apr-13 15:55:13

I agree with TBJ

Whilst it is sad that such negative angry people like him exist, we can at least avoid him

IfNotNowThenWhen Sat 06-Apr-13 16:16:53

I tend to go out with very working class men too, don't know why, but they are always very well read, and spend a lot of time sighing over my poor spelling!
Working class, as you know, does not mean un educated.

VelvetSpoon Sat 06-Apr-13 16:23:02

IfNotNow I completely agree that working class doesn't necessarily mean uneducated (or unintelligent) but where do you find well read working class men? I haven't met any men in years who even own books, let alone reads any. Most of them haven't read anything other than the Sun/Daily Mail since school...

WallyBantersJunkBox Sat 06-Apr-13 17:11:11

Velvet have you thought about going on

A senior person in the forces or the Police force can be the right mix of brains and brawn IYSWIM?

Even if the idiots on the ARRSE website have given the forces a bad name there are a lot of nice guys on there in senior ranks?

Unlike most of my peers I found city traders a complete wimpy turnoff. Probably for the same reasons as you.

IT geeks are quite my thing too though. My DH is an ex Army IT geek and I never had any issues with that.

babybarrister Sat 06-Apr-13 17:36:05

I did not meet DH online although both of us had been on the same website but at different points in time!

DH was a set up though via a colleague .....

There is hope out there I promise!!! [I was divorced!!]

VelvetSpoon Sat 06-Apr-13 17:39:03

WallyBanters funnily enough one of my Exs (the best one!) was in the police, he was the only man I know who understood what my job involved and was interested in hearing about it. Shame most policeman are serial shaggers!

I am currently 'dating' someone who does web design and stuff, he is rather lovely though it's VERY early days yet smile but he is clever enough and also (as he is good at mechanical things and buys and sells antiques) is practical and interesting enough makes a refreshing change smile

IfNotNowThenWhen Sat 06-Apr-13 18:18:57

I don't know really velvet-I wouldn't want you to think I am beating them off with a shitty stick-far from it!
I think, though, that I grew up being kind of "alternative" and the other kids I met were often from very wc backgrounds, but were square,pegs,misfits in the town we lived in, so I always knew a lot of people from very bog standard roots, but who were interested in books, and music etc.
I guess I have just kept meeting them as an adult.
Having said that, they tend to be from the kind of background where Dad is a machine fitter or whatever, but they have white collar jobs, but still that sense of having a foot in both camps, like you do.
I think Guardian Soulmates is the best site for these types actually.

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now