Sick of having to be Politically Correct over nearly everything

(586 Posts)
SickofThisCountry Thu 04-Apr-13 01:47:44

Dont want to cause some big debate but is anyone else on here getting sick to the back teeth of having to watch their p's and q's through fear of offending every tom, dick and harry.

SirBoobAlot Thu 04-Apr-13 01:50:04

Leave, then.

It's really not hard to stick to a few rules of consideration.

LuisGarcia Thu 04-Apr-13 01:51:36

Nope

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Thu 04-Apr-13 01:53:52

Nope.

....wondering if this is a name change...

SirBoobAlot Thu 04-Apr-13 01:55:24

I had the same thought.

LadyKinbote Thu 04-Apr-13 01:57:03

Depends what you mean - if you feel "political correctness" is preventing you from having an interesting debate on an important issue YANBU. If, however, you mean you would prefer to use words you are aware upset people rather than making the very easy decision to swap them for words that don't, YABU.

Don't opinions like this normally state that they're sick of trying not ot offend every tariq, pieter and mohammed?

Sigh.

recall Thu 04-Apr-13 01:57:34

no…

RunningAgain Thu 04-Apr-13 02:02:09

What you call pc gone mad, reasonable people call politeness and consideration of other people's feelings. And if it is you on the other thread, I've reported you, op.

SickofThisCountry Thu 04-Apr-13 02:02:46

correct amongst other issues in today's society chaostrulyreigns

Frig.

I really hope you don't think I am agreeing with you.

Oh OP. Are you having a tummyache over the fact that you can't be cheerfully obnoxious to and about people you think of as lesser human beings as you could do 30 years ago? Or do you want sympathy for the fact that your vocabulary and understanding are so limited that you can't discuss important issues without displaying your ignorance and getting called on it?

SickofThisCountry Thu 04-Apr-13 02:05:20

I think some folk on here are confusing another thread. Please advise

SickofThisCountry Thu 04-Apr-13 02:08:20

I do not know where this has come from to be honest.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 02:13:47

No I am not sick of feeling unable to express obnoxious bigoted opinions which I don't hold anyway.

Hth

"Political correctness" is about recognising a broader range of experiences/lives as being a valid and as important as the "norm". It's about removing hurtful language. I don't see that it is hard to do or to want to do. Unless you think some groups of people are inherently less worthy of having their feelings acknowledged and not being made to feel they are lesser people because of age, ability, ethnicity,gender, social and financial status.

Tortoiseontheeggshell Thu 04-Apr-13 02:15:57

Gosh, having to mind one's manners so as not to offend people. How awful. No wonder you're sick of your country. Goodness, I can't imagine.

Perhaps my four year old could help you? She's pretty good with the concept of being polite in mixed company.

ScumbagCollegeDropout Thu 04-Apr-13 02:17:19

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

I don't find it difficult not to offend anyone and don't particularly have to watch what I say, then again I don't hold any racist, sexist, homophobic or disablist views , maybe thats the key here.

You're going to have to give us an example of how it's "gone mad" or you'll just end up sounding like a bigot

PigletJohn Thu 04-Apr-13 03:03:50

Would you be happier if people more often shouted "Oi, Porky" at you, or called you a "slaphead?" Do you think people should feel more relaxed at calling you "retarded?" Where do you come from?

OrangeFootedScrubfowl Thu 04-Apr-13 03:12:18

I am with the "No"s.

GlitteryShitandDanglyBaubles Thu 04-Apr-13 03:13:29

Are you forrin, OP? And if so are you over 'ere in our cuntry taking our jobs or sponging off benefits? I think we should be told.

And FWIW I have never had to watch my p's and q's for fear of being called racist or sexist or homophobic... mainly because I'm not. I find this helps. Hth.

glastocat Thu 04-Apr-13 03:57:21

Is this a thread about a thread? Have you name changed?

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper Thu 04-Apr-13 04:30:31

I don't have to watch my Ps and Qs - it come naturally with little effort, what with not being an arsehole for the most part.

coralanne Thu 04-Apr-13 05:05:28

Maybe the OP means things like. Police Officer instead of Policeman or Policewoman.

Can't really think of anything else.

Agree Don. Can't really think of anything that I have to make an effort about.

Purple2012 Thu 04-Apr-13 07:04:04

I dont have to watch what i say on here or anywhere else as i would not use offensive terms/language etc. Its not difficult to be aware of what words/phrases etc are acceptable/unacceptable.

Iaintdunnuffink Thu 04-Apr-13 07:29:49

Never found it a problem, being pleasant and not judging entire groups of people gets me by.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 04-Apr-13 07:31:43

yes I too am fed up of people being over sensitive it's only words if they can't take it well really they should change their personality, not be unwell, hide whatever is wrong with them or wear a scarf/gloves to hide their colour

Hissy Thu 04-Apr-13 07:37:10

YABU 'OP', and a flaming idiot to boot. Pop off to NetHuns or something.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 07:41:05

You're being bloody ridiculous and I am going to pay you the huge compliment of assumning this is a wind-up.

Just in case it isn't....what happens when you and yours form part of someone else's 'tom, dick and harry'....because hey, I hate to have to have to break this to you, but you're not at the epicentre of things.

But...you're having a (not very funny) laugh, aren't you

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Thu 04-Apr-13 07:43:40

What subjects do you not want to be 'politically correct' about? Can you give an example?

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 07:45:12

OP could you give an example of what sort of things you mean, so that we can clarify what exactly you are trying to say.

Do you mean Police Officer instead of Policeman/woman

I remember suddenly the use of a 'blackboard' was outlawed, and I could never understand why it was so offensive. I had never thought of it as anything else but a board on the school wall which was black. I still don't see why that for instance cannot be used yet a pair of trousers in the same colour is fine to say.

Is that what you mean OP?

You need to actually state what you mean in your OP

HollyBerryBush Thu 04-Apr-13 07:46:11

There are some things that make think 'just do eff off' with all this right on PC crap.

The gender thing for one, example up the thread of Police Officer rather than man or woman. Chair Person being another.

The way I have to reconfigure a whole sentence to say exactly the same thing, but with more words. But on forums, never IRL and only in some circumstances.

Eg I would not say - "The lady who is old and little fell over today"; IRL I would say 'The little old lady fell over' - and no one would correct that to the first version BUT put in other descriptors and everyone goes ape shit crazy eg "The black lady fell over", and everyone wants to know what colour has to do with it. Try it with children and bats are out of the belfry completely. I'm afraid if it's good enough for Ofsted to use phrases such as 'provision is made for disabled pupils' I'm going to take a leaf out of the Campaign for Plain English book and use it.

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 07:46:16

oh, surely not a windup is this OP??

DearPrudence Thu 04-Apr-13 07:47:21

No, funnily enough I'm not sick of it. What sort of person would be, I wonder? <strokes chin>

JourneyThroughLife Thu 04-Apr-13 07:47:50

Politeness and good manners make life pleasant for everyone and should be practised by all. However, there are instances of political correctness gone made which I assume the OP means? In which case I would agree if is means things like saying "Chairperson" instead of Chairman (even when the Chair is male). Or not being allowed to refer to a London taxi as a black cab??? Or, at work, we have had to change the job role title of Handyman to Handyperson (he's a bloke, he thinks it's daft...) This is PC gone mad, who is offended by these examples?

JourneyThroughLife Thu 04-Apr-13 07:48:15

I mean "gone mad"

HollyBerryBush Thu 04-Apr-13 07:52:45

And another one - 'brain storming' - I refuse to have 'thought showers' I really do.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 07:55:45

Using handyperson etc only sounds 'mad' because it is relatively new whilst we get used to the notion that gender/skin colour etc is largely irrelevant.

I may not be here to see it but I'm guessing a few years down the line people will think it was nuts that gender used to be highlighted in this way and that the default was male

As a slightly irrelevant example, think of hopw it jars when you see clips of chat shows from the 60s when people were smoking. Yet it wqas thought of as perfectly normal then. Far far better if these things evolve naturally but sometimes the law has to give a bit of a nudge from behind!

HollyBerryBush Thu 04-Apr-13 07:59:33

We do watch a lot of old comedies - and they are excruciatingly jaw droppingly bad with terminology.

I know the whole blackboard thing and baa baa black sheep were urban myths, but that is an example of how PC pottiness took hold.

MrsMaryCooper Thu 04-Apr-13 08:02:18

It doesn't bother me. I like not offending people. It's nice

LadyKinbote Thu 04-Apr-13 08:02:50

The people who've referred to blackboards and black cabs are joking, right? These are not actual examples of political correctness, just the kind of thing rascists come out with to discredit political correctness (happy to be proved wrong here...)

LadyKinbote Thu 04-Apr-13 08:03:50

x-post with Holly

There are no examples or any frame of reference other than a pretty open statement by the OP.

It's just politeness I think... But then I do come from a family of joyless Guardian-readers.

Quak Thu 04-Apr-13 08:07:55

op - I think it's because of attitudes like yours that political correctness came about. Most people know it's wrong to say offensive things or act rudely. No-one wants to be a twat. For those that don't, political correctness can remind and guide you. I see political correctness as a sign that our civilization is maturing.

Lotta - I agree that because these terms are new they get the 'pc gone made' labels.

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 08:08:56

"Eg I would not say - "The lady who is old and little fell over today"; IRL I would say 'The little old lady fell over' - and no one would correct that to the first version BUT put in other descriptors and everyone goes ape shit crazy eg "The black lady fell over", and everyone wants to know what colour has to do with it"
Eh?

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 08:10:02

Feel free to be rude and obnoxious instead, OP, and see how far it gets you.

EauRouge Thu 04-Apr-13 08:12:45

"Dont want to cause some big debate but is anyone else on here getting sick to the back teeth of having to watch their p's and q's through fear of offending every tom, dick and harry."

Are you getting political correctness mixed up with politeness?

I really don't see what the big deal is about saying police officer/firefighter instead of policeman/fireman.

I think the whole blackboard thing came from people not understanding the point of political correctness. Or people deliberately misinterpreting the point of political correctness because they are pissed off that casual racism isn't socially acceptable any more.

Trills Thu 04-Apr-13 08:12:47

YABU because you have not given us any examples so we can't telll what you are talking about

YA also probably BU because I haven't yet found someone complaining about "political correctness" who was not actually complaining about their right to be offensive.

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 08:18:11

I'm 90% sure "police officer" has always been a term in use, by the way. Perhaps somebody from an older generation will know? It's just that policeman/policewoman used to be used as well. "Police officer" is hardly a clumsy construction.

And I've never heard anyone say "chairperson" either, everybody says "chair" - again I suspect this is a term that goes way back.

In fact I start to suspect that these "political correctness gone mad" types never actually engage in civic life, go into workplaces or attend meetings, hence their fevered imaginings about what goes on there.

ImTooHecsyForYourParty Thu 04-Apr-13 08:18:35

What does colour have to do with it?

If you are talking about an elderly person who fell over then that is relevant information. The fact that they are elderly and fell over means that, perhaps, they could have been hurt more than a younger person - when we hear about elderly people falling, we hear about broken hips etc, in a way that we just don't about younger people. So, depending on the circumstances, it may have been relevant to mention that the person who fell was elderly.

However, there is no relevant reason to mention the colour of someone who fell. A person's colour, unlike age, does not have the potential to make a fall more serious, or mean they need more help to get up, for example.

It isn't about mentioning or not mentioning age, colour, disability... it's really simple - is the insertion of that information relevant or even could someone reasonably think it was relevant.

I was talking to a woman on the bus, she was saying isn't it weird that we've had so much snow recently! - fine. Reasonable.

I was talking to a black woman on the bus, she was saying isn't it weird that we've had so much snow recently! - insertion of colour totally irrelevant and therefore meaningless.

I was talking to a black woman on the bus, she was saying isn't it weird that we've had so much snow recently and she was saying she's from Kenya and when she first came here, she couldn't believe how cold it could get. - I would argue that the colour of her skin is still unnecessary because it's her nationality that she is mentioning, but I can see how some people would think it was relevant.

and I know, I have used the word relevant so many times it's lost all meaning grin but that is the top and bottom of it. - What is the reason a description of the person has been included - is it integral to the story.

More often than not - it isn't.

And more importantly, you never get I was talking to a white woman, I was talking to an able bodied man...

GummyAdams Thu 04-Apr-13 08:22:37

^Are you getting political correctness mixed up with politeness?^grin

Or what Stephen Fry said in his America programme-
"Sometimes political correctness exists more in the furious minds of its enemies than in reality, which gets on with compromise and common sense without too much hysteria."

hazeyjane Thu 04-Apr-13 08:22:59

Thinking before opening your mouth to say stuff, shouldn't be too big a deal.

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 08:24:43

So is the word blackboard offensive? I still don't get whether it can be used or not?

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 08:28:34

Who "outlawed" the use of the word "blackboard", Eyepad?

If it's something that happened directly to you in a education setting, well, I wouldn't agree with the person who decided it, but if it's their school/college/whatever then they make the rules - and it's up to the staff/students/whoever to protest that it's silly. No "outlawing" involved.

If it's something you read about in the papers it's probably bollocks. Just like all those "council bans use of Christmas" stories they run every December.

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 08:32:24

It's not Political Correctness gone mad.

It's Political Correctness experiencing mental illness.

Do try to keep up.

Political correctness gone mad is what racists/bigots/etc use as a defense for their claptrap.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 04-Apr-13 08:35:06

They have replaced all the blackboards in schools with whiteboards now, you know. Political correctness gone mad. wink

Blackboard isn't banned hmm

I don't remember that particular law I'm not a lawyer

ShipwreckedAndComatose Thu 04-Apr-13 08:36:56

Ha! I was going to say that TheOringinal!

Trills Thu 04-Apr-13 08:37:34

Lots of schools have smartboards now - does that mean that black and white boards were all stupid?

If u want to be able to use derogatory terms you know are gurtful then YABU. If however (like me) u are just unaware of the fact some terms are no longer considered ok to use and u just can't keep up, as u never meant to offend anyone just everyone's jumped on this one thing u had no idea about then YANBu. For instance I had no idea "having a paddy" was an offensive phrase and I have used it many s time with no offense intended.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 04-Apr-13 08:40:06

oh dear op most on here think you are talking bollocks. because you are
Nigel Farage will agree with you and Nick Griffin

RubyGates Thu 04-Apr-13 08:40:39

While I don't think the use of polite, thoughtful language is wrong or onerous; I have seen several intersting threads completely derailed because a subsequent poster has come along and picked the choice of OP's language to pieces. Usually when the OP has a good point that the more "politically engaged" don't want to engage with for whatever reason.

I think there are increasing instances of "the language correctness police" berating the OP and thus losing the original point of the often interesting debate.

I'm sure there are ways of letting the OP know that terminology has moved on and that it is now thought better to say <B> rather than <A> without shutting-down the whole flow of debate.

Dawndonna Thu 04-Apr-13 08:41:24

'Blackboard' 'Black Cab' myths. Are we going to get 'black coffee' soon?

Listen OP we're aware it's still the school holidays, now off you trot and finish your homework.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 04-Apr-13 08:41:54

Only whiteboards can be smart boards though. I don't know. I don't get it. Safest just to refer to them as 'coloured' I think, like what my nanna does, and she hasn't got a racist bone in her body.

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 08:42:26

Isn't it amazing how someone takes a bashing for being "un-pc" on one thread and then someone else happens to start a thread on the same topic.

All this stuff about black cabs and blackboards is bollocks. There have been some changes in terminology because we are striving towards being a more equal society and language is a big part of it. Societies evolve constantly and expect their members to be able to make some sort of effort to evolve their own understanding and behaviour.

Some people simply don't seem able to do so and cover up their own inadequacy by being agressive and whingy about "political corectness gone mad". All it means is that they don't like being the anachronism and having people give them that look - you know, the one that says "I can't believe you just said that. I'm not going to say anything because I don't want to cause a massive scene but I'm just going to edge away from you slowly."

A lot of this change is far from a new thing. I've been a criminal lawyer for 12 years so I've probably had more reason to refer to members of the police force than most people. I say "police officer" or just "officer". It would feel a bit odd to say "policewoman" or "policeman" - odd and a bit childish. It's always been like that - it's not something I've ever consciously done - it's just common parlance now.

People need to get over themselves. If they are causing offence then chances are they are being offensive and need to have a look at whether society has moved on and left them behind.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 04-Apr-13 08:42:34

... And she only votes UKIP because of their taxation policies.

Chipstick10 Thu 04-Apr-13 08:43:01

Why do the mumsnetters on here automatically think political correctness means not being able to racially abuse people? Totally confused by the reaction. Over reaction in the extreme. Could the op just mean in general like referring to xmas as winterville . Or chairperson rather than chairman. Or not saying baldy but follically challenged. chill out Also I am not au fait with the politics on here, why has the op name changed?

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 08:46:01

well i suppose i used the wrong word in outlawed. '"not to be used' the.

FWIW I have no idea where I heard it should not be used, but all of a sudden it couldn't be mentioned without someone saying it was wrong.

Anyway I am happy to stsnd corrected, and that the blackboard still exists and is not offensive.

Simontowers1 Thu 04-Apr-13 08:46:27

YABU. However ... I do think that the original, laudable intentions of political correctness have, to a certain extent, been interpreted over-zealously by some liberals and also been misused/abused by people in some circumstances, especially in the work place.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 04-Apr-13 08:46:49

But nobody has ever had to refer to Christmas as winterval. And I have certainly never heard of anyone saying'follically challanged' except as a rather lame joke. Both of those things are examples of defensive fear of what is perceived to be political correctness, rather than of political correctness itself.

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 08:47:15

Chipstick The Winterval stories always turn out to be bollocks. I remember one year it was Birmingham City Council got it in the neck for calling their December/January events programme "Winter Wonderland" or something like that - despite the fact that among the events listed in the programme were "Switching on of the CHRISTMAS lights", "CHRISTMAS carol service" etc.

And I'm sorry but has anyone ever heard anybody seriously say "follically challenged"? The Daily Hate Mail and others just make this shit up, I'm afraid.

Badvoc Thu 04-Apr-13 08:49:06

Didn't it used to be called politeness and decency?....
Wonder when that changed....

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 08:49:20

Does anyone actually have an example of them personally being corrected by an over-zealous liberal when they say "blackboard" or "bald"?

Or is it all just other people, generally, over there, being corrected by swarming armies of over-zealous liberals, so I heard from the milkman's mum who knew it absolutely for definite because she read it in the paper?

JourneyThroughLife Thu 04-Apr-13 08:52:16

Well, when I was working in a London office, we were given a list of words we weren't allowed to use, I can't remember all of them but there were two pages of it...and blackboard and black cab were on the list, I do remember those. Now I'm in a different job in a different setting, but "chairperson" and "handyperson" are specifically to be used here, to give but two examples. It's awkward to say and I'm forever worried about getting it wrong, and I never, ever wish to be impolite by using the term chairman, but I really can't see who would be offended if I did...

Dawndonna Thu 04-Apr-13 08:52:40

interesting and relevant
And nothing to do with the Daily Fail!

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 08:53:06

Have you ever looked at the DirectGov website for jobs. To try and decifer exactly what a job title is to you and me from the description can take all day. Lots of jobs are now Technicians, or Artists.

Subway for instance employ Sandwich artists. Shop assistant to you and me.

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 08:55:06

decipher Jeez, i need to go back to school

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 08:55:53

How is calling a person who works in Subway a "sandwich artist" politically correct? Might be very silly, but I don't see what it's got to do with political correctness.

When was this Journey? Did you protest?

And why is it so hard to just say "Chair"? confused

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 04-Apr-13 08:56:10

Sandwich artist is naff marketing, it's nothing to do with political correctness.

YABU
Political correctness just means being polite, respectful and not a racist/homophobe/ablist/general cunt. I'm ok with that.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 09:01:00

Does anyone actually have an example of them personally being corrected by an over-zealous liberal when they say "blackboard" or "bald"?

Not exactly Madbra but I do have an example of being corrected on this very forum for using a word which I had NO IDEA was in fact disablist. I was really grateful to have it pointed out and I will never use it again. The fact that I used it in all innocence (or rather ignorance) is neither here nor there; the fact that someone may find it genuinely offensive is sufficient (and don't get me started on the term 'professionally offended'...another weasel term used by those whose thoughts and prayers are more with the offender than the offendee and very much in the same category as 'political correctness gorn mad imho!)

SneezingwakestheJesus Thu 04-Apr-13 09:01:17

I think you mean minding your r's and s's, OP!

Theicingontop Thu 04-Apr-13 09:02:05

I don't think about it.

Because I'm not a dickhead confused

JourneyThroughLife Thu 04-Apr-13 09:02:19

MadBraLady, I was working in London from 2005 - 2008, I had been living in rural Lincolnshire before that where pc was still virtually unknown. The pc culture came as an absolute shock, I thought I was being very polite and well mannered, but clearly I was not. The list the office gave me wasn't just for me, it was a standard list that everyone had, I didn't complain because I thought I had to "keep up with modern thinking" and I must be out of date...
Now I work in a different organisation, from 2008 onwards, but also down south, so my feeling is that pc is much more of an issue down here than it is in rural parts of England...or perhaps I am just still 'behind the times'...but it still seems a bit mad...

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 09:02:26

Er- Eyepad- the sandwich artist thing is a marketing ploy intended to be funny. Like McDonald's University of Hamburgerology.

JenaiMorris Thu 04-Apr-13 09:03:57

Chair is the standard, and has been for years and years.

In a fit of retro, I might start referring to myself as a manageress however <amends signature block>

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 09:05:58

I'm really sorry, but I just don't believe that the term "black cab" has ever anywhere been considered offensive by anybody.

Please can somebody give one real example of something that thy wanted to say that they couldn't because of "political correctness" that wasn't racist, sexist, homophobic or disablist?

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 09:11:08

I could never agree with any list that has "blackboard" on it, that's just silly. (How often does anyone really have to use that word anyway?)

Having said that, it would never occur to me to say "chairman" instead of "chair". I don't really understand why saying that is a problem TBH. If that makes me part of a London "PC culture" then sign me up for the gold membership.

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 04-Apr-13 09:11:46

Well, life would be a lot simpler if my DS was just allowed to clobber anyone who called him retard. Not very PC though.

Dawndonna Thu 04-Apr-13 09:21:42

Nebulous I taught my dd 'onanist' at a very early age. Very few know the meaning and by the time they find out, it's too late! grin

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 09:24:45

I love that Dawn !!

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 04-Apr-13 09:25:05

grin

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 04-Apr-13 09:26:18

There are a large number of children out there whose parents are not married, OP. Would you prefer referring to them as bastards?

chickensaladagain Thu 04-Apr-13 09:27:00

Very odd how this thread started within minutes of a completely different poster getting flamed for using words to describe certain disabilities which were becoming socially unacceptable in the early 80s when I was at school

Op there is a difference between making an honest mistake with language and deliberately using words which you know to be offensive and then waving you arms in horror screaming its PC gone mad!

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 09:31:49

"Well, life would be a lot simpler if my DS was just allowed to clobber anyone who called him retard. Not very PC though."

Isn't it? Where in the PC culture does it say you have to put up with crap?

Clobbering isn't very effective though- onanist is a goo plan!

Yeah it's shit not being able to call people mongs, retards and coons any more hmm

Wait, the opposite of that. I'm glad people don't get to be cunts without being called on it.

Wannabestepfordwife Thu 04-Apr-13 09:35:44

Journey agree with you I'm originally from same part of the world as you and move south and I have to say when I go back I'm shocked at some of the terminology people use.

I think it's great cbeebies are introducing diversity at a young age but sometimes when I watch postman pat I just think its great there is sonny different ethnicities but it's not really true to life.

mirry2 Thu 04-Apr-13 09:37:32

Postman Pat? ----ummm

Wannabestepfordwife Thu 04-Apr-13 09:38:54

I know I'm sad but dd loves the theme tune

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 04-Apr-13 09:40:32

'onanist is a goo plan!'

grin

abbscrosswoman Thu 04-Apr-13 10:05:27

I hesitate to get involved in such an important and worthy discussion......but I think it quite ironic that using non-PC language is cited as potentially impolite and offensive yet calling someone a twat or cunt is .................PC ?

Theicingontop Thu 04-Apr-13 10:09:04

Because usually a person can help being a cunt, in all fairness.

MissAnnersley Thu 04-Apr-13 10:10:55

Because usually a person can help being a cunt, in all fairness

That made me grin

How true.

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 10:11:09

tbh there are a number of people on this thread who are spelling out offensive words, which they seem to enjoy doing which are thinly veiled as examples of what we should not be saying. Do we really need lists of offensive words HarryisUpDuffed. /almost like you are getting a secondary gain from using them.

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 10:18:49

Eye pad and abscrosswoman- did you hear that whooshing sound? That was the noise the point makes as it zooms past over your head.......!

abbscrosswoman Thu 04-Apr-13 10:21:24

Really ? what 'point' have I missed ?

stressyBessy22 Thu 04-Apr-13 10:27:14

i don t get it either . Surely calling someone female genitalia as an insult is the least politically correct thing oe all !

MrsDeVere Thu 04-Apr-13 10:30:12

I have lived and worked in Haringey, Islington, and Lambeth.
I have worked in the charitable and public sector all of my life.
I have fostered and adopted.
I know work in Early Years education with disabled children.

So if ever there was a person who would be bombarded with PCness gorn mad it would be me surely?

Never seen a document with forbidden words like 'black board' and 'black bag'
Never been told I cannot sing 'baa baa black sheep'

Do not recognise most of the rubbish spouted by people who are 'sick of not being able to call a spade a spade'

But I will admit, I don't need to be told not to call someone a P* or a M***. I don't need to be told that the word R*** is offensive.
I do not describe people as wheelchair bound or handicapped because you would have to be dim not to realise why you shouldn't.

None of that stuff has been dictated to me. None of it has been imparted during a special course.

Its just common sense and politeness.

Why would you want to say something that is going to upset or offend someone?
Not in the context of an argument, just in day to day life?

What is wrong with you that makes you want to stick doggedly to horrible words and makes you refuse to listen to people when they say 'that is not a nice word to use to describe me'?

And you know what? You DO have the option to keep using those words. I would take a wild guess at the ones that you would keep using and in what circumstances.

For example...I doubt you would walk up to me 6'2" husband and call him a n*****.
Probably would stick to the safer option of referring to kids with LDs as r**** though eh? (well as long as their parents were not within earshot)

I deliberately used them so we know what we are talking about. Disingenuously chattering about blackboards has been used as a deliberate "PC gorn mad" tactic to make us forget that PC actually changed the norms from despicable words being commonplace to being almost universally unacceptable.

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 10:43:32

seeker - nope never heard anything.

My point is, in case you missed it. there are people on this thread who are saying óh let's just call everyone** * ** ** and spelling them all out like they are getting a kick out of doing so, but using it as oh shock you must never say blah blah.

I see through it. You may not. I have seen it before.

EyePad I'm sorry you felt offended and think I'm twelve. For what it's worth, you misinterpreted my intentions.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Thu 04-Apr-13 10:50:25

Where has the OP gone. He/she has been scared off and I really wanted some examples of pc gone mad.

Eyepad
You are a strange, paranoid little person.

ouryve Thu 04-Apr-13 10:56:50

Go then.

I believe Cuba's nice at this time of year.

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 10:56:51

sad

Quak Thu 04-Apr-13 11:01:23

abbs- if you still don't understand I'll explain. Calling someone a cunt does not have hundreds and hundreds of years of history attached to its misuse. No 'cunts' were ever rounded up, murdered, experimented on or lynched. A cunt is a word that has evolved without racism, fascism and bigotry.
The only person who will be offended by being called a cunt, is the person being called that. And if they're being a cunt, then maybe that's ok.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 11:01:37

I am trying to understand your point Eyepad

Do you mean that people shouldn't actually write cunt or retard?
Because I ave to say if I write cunt or c**t , everyone knows exactly what I mean and the second one reads exactly the same as the irst so I am never really sure what the point of the ** is on a site aimed at adults

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 11:04:00

I understand what Eyepad is saying- simply that some posters seem to be getting a furtive little kick at mentioning supposed 'banned' words and making it clear what they're referring to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Eyepad?

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 11:05:21

I think she means 'Blackboard' etc Pag- although I could be wrong.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 11:05:28

Ahhh. That makes sense.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 11:06:48

X-posted.
Maybe not then. I don't know.

Thanks for trying Tethers.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Thu 04-Apr-13 11:07:16

The only person who will be offended by being called a cunt, is the person being called that. And if they're being a cunt, then maybe that's ok.

I disagree

I wouldn't be impressed by hearing another person call someone a cunt in front of me. I would find it quite offensive tbh.

That was my understanding of EyePad's post. And it may be a thing people do. It just wasn't what I intended to do.

Andro Thu 04-Apr-13 11:07:50

There are people and organisiations who's use of 'PC' has gone completely out of control. I've generally found that these groups are the same ones that ban basic things on the grounds of 'health and safety', in such circumstances where the HSE would be scratching their heads - the decision was nothing to do with them! Over-zealous use of any umbrella term is at best unhelpful, at worst it discredits the term (and applications) completely.

Quak Thu 04-Apr-13 11:14:03

Hohoho - in these circumstances it is your own personal boundaries of taste and acceptance that make you feel like that. Most people feel like that about stronger words which is why they are censored. It's not got a lot to do with pc, which is what this thread is about.

TheBigJessie Thu 04-Apr-13 11:14:17

There are some people out there, who replace rational thought and consideration of discriminatory language with blanket bans, and "you can't say that, that's racist, innit".

These peripheral people, who are simply trying to do their best to be considerate in a society that now values equality, do not undermine the entire concept of not being a discriminatory bastard. They indicate that not everyone is great at linguistic analysis.

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 11:14:19

Tethers - absolutely spot on. I must be shit at explaining myself!

I only used the ** because I would be saying those offensive words too. (think disablist, racist, whatever word)

I certainly have no problem with using the word cunt grin

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 11:14:55

Can you give an example, Andro?

HoHoHoNoYouDont Thu 04-Apr-13 11:18:11

Quak But surely 'cunt' is a derogatory term against the female form which in turn my be deemed as sexist.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Thu 04-Apr-13 11:18:29

*may be deemed

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 11:19:21

Ah, ok Eyepad.

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 11:20:06

So are "prick", "dick(head)", "knob" etc. And "arsehole" is I guess derogatory to every creature that has one.

Quak Thu 04-Apr-13 11:24:00

The word itself does not have the associated history. How it is used in our society depends on who uses it and why. And it is used like that almost because it is so heavily censored. It does not have the intrinsic weight of other sexist/racist/fascist terms.
I'm not sticking up for it, only trying to separate it from the true offensive terms.

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 11:25:49

Cunt is an interesting word as it has a dual meaning- it means both a vagina, and a despicable person (usually male).

This does not mean that to call someone a cunt is to insult vaginas, just that the word is being used to mean the second definition.

A similar word is bastard- although it's no longer used to mean one of its meanings (child of unmarried parents).

Cunt remains a highly offensive word, but, as it stands, there are different interpretations as to why.

Nancy66 Thu 04-Apr-13 11:29:46

I have seen people object to words like:

bonkers
nutter
loony

on MN which - when not personally directed - I think is a bit overzealous

HoHoHoNoYouDont Thu 04-Apr-13 11:32:36

A word doesn't have to have an associated history in order to be offensive or politically incorrect. And I'm not sure if it can be separated from 'true offensive terms' as like you say it depends on who uses is and why, the whole context of the thing. This whole subject can take you round in circles!!

boxershorts Thu 04-Apr-13 11:33:23

P.C???????? why not "MANNERS CORRECT?"

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 11:34:00

Nutter and loony, no, I wouldn't use them to be honest. They have been used as derogatory terms for people with health conditions for too long, it's just a bit too raw.

I would go to the barricades to defend "bonkers" though, which is a great word and I'd argue that is at one remove from calling an individual by a name. Similarly, I wouldn't use "nutter" but I would happily describe something as "nuts".

boxershorts Thu 04-Apr-13 11:34:34

come on where are you lot on the MANNERS mum and dad taught you?

HoHoHoNoYouDont Thu 04-Apr-13 11:36:05

I like the word bonkers too.

Nancy66 Thu 04-Apr-13 11:36:09

oh and I also remember a thread about whether it was acceptable to use the word 'cretin'

flumperoo Thu 04-Apr-13 11:38:56

ImTooHecsy re your comment:

"I was talking to a black woman on the bus, she was saying isn't it weird that we've had so much snow recently! - insertion of colour totally irrelevant and therefore meaningless."

You say using the word 'black' is irrelevant to the conversation (which I agree with btw), I'm just wondering how using the word 'woman' is relevant? Using your own argument isn't the word 'person' more appropriate?

TheBigJessie Thu 04-Apr-13 11:40:33

Hmm. Don't use nutter or loony, either. Feels too nasty. Not sure whether I'd go to the length of questioning some one else's use. I have to feel quite confident I'm in the right before I confront people!

I do like loon, but someone told me it was offensive, so I don't use it any more. Bonkers feels slightly affectionate, rather than nasty, and not as highly personal.

Trouble with not specifying man or woman is that we linguistically specify gender - "a woman ... she said". You could use "person" but you'd still have to use "she".

TheBigJessie Thu 04-Apr-13 11:41:44

I haven't used cretin since I looked it up in the dictionary and found out it was a medical term, when I was 12.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 11:42:02

Interesting flumperoo

It made me realise that, quite involuntarily, I would use the word someone in that sort of conversation.

Pandemoniaa Thu 04-Apr-13 11:43:21

Dont want to cause some big debate

I fear that your politically incorrect pants were already smouldering when you typed that.

happybubblebrain Thu 04-Apr-13 11:44:37

Britain has a reputation for its people being polite but not actually giving a crap about each other. Obviously that's a generalisation because some people do care, but why bother pretending to be nice if they're not? I think it would be better if people were just honest about who they are.

EyePad Thu 04-Apr-13 11:44:56

and saying the woman was óld'is ageist surely.

Best just say I was talking to someone, but I am sorry I am unable to finish because it may offend. grin Because whichever way you cut the mustard, something will be wrong grin black, woman, old, little

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 11:51:31

Knowing words are offensive is helpful- you can then choose whether or not to use them, knowing what this may say about you.

We can all assess the risk of saying certain words and use only the ones which we feel ok with. As society changes, language reflects this and, for example, fewer people wish to be thought of as racist than two generations ago.

This is how language works, and is not the same as banning words.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 11:54:11

I think it would be better if people were just honest about who they are.

Bubble

I am all in favour of honesty and integrity as concepts (mostly grin) but ffs, surely there should be laws (and there are) to stop people giving free rein to their fuck witted bigotry more unacceptable traits.

TiggyD Thu 04-Apr-13 11:56:10

"Sick of having to be Politically Correct over nearly everything"

is the new

"I'm not racist, but..."

Feminine Thu 04-Apr-13 11:58:41

I have no idea why "cunt" is so popular on MN? confused

I very rarely hear it IRL.

Its not cool at all.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 12:05:39

Apparently cupcakes are not cool either. I don't really care though.

Feminine Thu 04-Apr-13 12:06:12

cupcakes? pag

Andro Thu 04-Apr-13 12:06:56

tethersend

I spent some time working for a company who did the following:

Banned black pens in case the colour descriptive caused offence
Insisted that all gender/marital status titles (Mr/Mrs/etc) were dropped and all internal communications were addressed in the form <job title> + <surname>.
Banned even the mention of Christmas in case it caused offence
Insisted that everyone wear boots with toe caps (the office staff loved that one!)
Weighed handbags/briefcases (on a spot check basis) and if they were in excess of 2.5kg insisted the person took a 'lifting safely' course.

Those a few of the more amusing examples. The company was taken over several years ago, the new management rapidly brought some common sense to proceedings.

abbscrosswoman Thu 04-Apr-13 12:08:24

Feminine please keep to the point ! wink

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 12:09:10

How interesting. Can you name the company?

Feminine Thu 04-Apr-13 12:11:02

Sorry abb just made me think... smile

Andro Thu 04-Apr-13 12:12:36

tethersend - not a good idea, it would make me too identifiable.

EauRouge Thu 04-Apr-13 12:12:41

^Insisted that everyone wear boots with toe caps (the office staff loved that one!)
Weighed handbags/briefcases (on a spot check basis) and if they were in excess of 2.5kg insisted the person took a 'lifting safely' course.^

This is health and safety, not political correctness.

I bet the other things were brought in by someone that doesn't understand what political correctness really is.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 12:13:25

Sorry feminine smile

There is a thread saying cupcakes are over. I am clearly so incensed I am having a thread crossover moment.

Machli Thu 04-Apr-13 12:17:11

Answering the OP only. No I like to have to think about what I say and make myself aware of changing social norms.

I'd hate to be considered limited and/or inadvertently hurt or offend those around me.

MrsDeVere Thu 04-Apr-13 12:17:33

Andro please name the company.

Disney?

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 12:17:51

Where do we stand on cake pops, Pag?

The spherical little cunts.

Feminine Thu 04-Apr-13 12:17:58

This is dreadful news pag I've recently been cheered up by finding buttermilk in the UK!

I had a really great recipe for cup-cakes using it! grin

Feminine Thu 04-Apr-13 12:19:30

tethers angry grin

EauRouge Thu 04-Apr-13 12:19:35

Haven't seen anyone post this yet-

Stewart Lee on political correctness.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 12:21:03

grin

Ooooh - feminine. I have always liked you.

Dear god Tethers - I haven't had a cake pop. I have only just discovered macaroon. I am hopelessly dated with cunting baking.

GetOeuf Thu 04-Apr-13 12:25:24

I think lots of people when called on saying something offensive get incdibly self righteous as they hate being criticised, so come out with the tiresome 'pc gorm mad' shite.

What's wrong with someone pointing out that wha you have said is offensive? Isn't it better to have it pointed out on order to prevent you blunderbussing through life offending and upsetting people?

And old boss years ago took me aside and asked me to stop saying the word cretin. His daughter was born with hypothyroidism, which years ago was called cretinism. I had no idea it was a disablist insult, I just thought it was a Blackadder type insult.

Anyway I stopped using the word. I didn't get arsey and think it was some kind of PC nonsense and carry on using the word.

Andro Thu 04-Apr-13 12:32:04

EauRouge - I know that it was H&S, the examples were given based on my previous post (PC gone too far/H&S gone too far correlation and my opinion that taking these things so far as to turn them into a bad joke (as this company did) just discredits the perfectly reasonable basis both have.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 12:34:27

Rouge thank you thank you thank you.

grin

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 12:36:43

And old boss years ago took me aside and asked me to stop saying the word cretin. His daughter was born with hypothyroidism, which years ago was called cretinism. I had no idea it was a disablist insult, I just thought it was a Blackadder type insult.

Oeuf exactly the same thing happened to me on these boards, same word even. And I agree with your reaction three million percent! (not four million that would be stupid)

TheRivieraKid Thu 04-Apr-13 12:37:49

I'd like to point out that sending people on a lifting safely course based on the weight of their handbags is in NO way related to real H&S - just someone who thinks that it should be. In other words, utter nonsense, probably by a senior management idiot who wouldn't know H&S if a copy of the Health & Safety at Work Act hit him/her in the face.

GetOeuf Thu 04-Apr-13 12:38:51

Lol at 4 million percent being stupid

ChasingDogs Thu 04-Apr-13 12:40:41

No OP, not really. If I did say something that caused offence, I would apologise.

For example, I didn't realise the word "retard" was disablist until somebody used on a thread here. To my mind it was a childish insult popular with kids in the US as an alternative to "idiot" or "stupid", and far removed from its original use.

It was pointed out that it was considered offensive, the person who used it apologised, everyone moved on.

On reflection, I was shocked to see the term "mental retardation" in a US psyche textbook just a few years ago. So really, had I given it any more thought, I might have put two and two together. But I didn't, it took somebody pointing it out.

Political correctness "gone mad" might apply if you're being flamed to the 7th circle of hell for making a mistake. Making an effort not to use insulting and offensive terms is simply good manners.

Years ago one of my teachers told us the term politically correct was invented by The Sun newspaper. His argument was that it was a made up thing, and by that logic, itself un pc. The language we use changes as we develop as a society, and if something is found to be offensive to a group or individual, why on earth would you carry on using the word?.

I've heard the stuff you're saying peddled by bigots and racists op. YABU

don't want to cause some big debate er how about not posting massive verbal bollocks on a high traffic site...... wink

ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 13:01:27

I've got me flameproof drawers on today, so I will say something...

I do get where the op is coming from on this - I was told off by my boss (in a previous job) once for giving a member of staff a talking to about continued coffee break chatting -

the 10 min break was spreading to 40/50/60 min and bog all was getting done - he was the instigator - the one who kept the chat going even after everyone else had gone back to their desks - he'd follow on and chat chat chat....

he complained..... and my boss used the "do you have a problem with him because he is disabled" line - NO I have a problem with him because he is a lazy, disruptive influence....

PC invades ALL aspects of life - not just the sniggering (oh - can I use that word here - some forums star it out because of the offensive nature of the word in the middle of the word!!) about "black"boards or language used to describe disability (probably not PC to say that either - where is there a list of words we CAN use to describe anything!).

I'm starting to miss being able to debate and talk freely...

Recently we had an influx of people from "somewhere else" - crime figures quadrupled - but it would apparently be "stereotyping" to say WHY we think crime quadrupled - PC gone mad.... sometimes ...yes...

On MN sometimes it would be nice to debate some educational stuff without everybody backing down the minute someone with SN came into the discussion, or transport in general without working out how to fit 3 wheelchairs and a buggy - or toilets - OMG the furore about bloomin toilets and who can use which ones in which particular circumstances... and I dye my hair sometimes because I want to - not because I'm living in a patriarchal society that demands I conform - feminist opinion is becoming another battlefield of PCdom (on MN at least)...

I hold no strong views on immigration/disability/colour/creed/sexual orientation/gender etc etc, but yet I'm getting fed up of it all..

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 13:09:12

hmm

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 13:10:47

<headdesk>

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 13:12:46

What is it you want to say in an educational context that gets stifled by someone with SN coming into the discussion ByTheWay.
Just a 'for instance' would be helpful.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 13:14:16

crime figures quadrupled? Really? Where?

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 13:14:21

"he complained..... and my boss used the "do you have a problem with him because he is disabled" line - NO I have a problem with him because he is a lazy, disruptive influence...."

And presumably because you could back this up your boss said "OK fine" and applied appropriate sanctions?

"I'm starting to miss being able to debate and talk freely..."

What do you want to say that you can't? How about some examples?

"probably not PC to say that either - where is there a list of words we CAN use to describe anything!)."

Here's a novel thought- how about asking?

"and I dye my hair sometimes because I want to - not because I'm living in a patriarchal society that demands I conform"

Has anyone actually ever said that to you?

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 13:14:55

I wish we could have a good debate on these things where people who do think very much like bytheway1 could express themselves without being called names - I really think there is a lot to be said about education when it comes to predudice it is usually media filled misunderstanding.

for instance I would say to bytheway1 - where did you get the crime figures
where did you get the figures regarding immigration

what is the evidence to link one to the other? do the police capture this data and make it available? it seems like something which would be easily quantifiable.

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 13:15:21

Brilliant- others got in with the two I accidentally missed out! Teamwork, Sam!

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 13:17:57

I dont call people like bytheway1 names.

But if I ever object to anything they say about SN it is because I find it offensive. .not because I am being "politically correct".

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 13:19:04

nowhere in the uk has any sort of crime 'quadrupled' in a short space of time, with the possible exception of 'new' ways to commit old offences such as those involving social network sites

PeneloPeePitstop Thu 04-Apr-13 13:19:59

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 13:23:22

blackboard and black coffee - seem so ludicrous that I think most people shout 'urban myth stupid' far too easily. but there are types of people who believe this nonsense and perpetuate it believing it to be true.

I remember a HUGE furore about 'winterfest' at some council or other in the 90's. When it wasn't 'the eastern Europeans comin 'ere stealing our cars/jobs/daughters/babies' it was the Asians comin' 'ere takin' our jobs, women... CHRISTMAS!' A leading muslim community figure said something along the lines of " we didn't ask for this to be done, some white person did it on our behalf thinking they were doing the right thing'

PC invades all aspects of life

Look, I'm sorry but you're wrong.

People cannot help if they have been brought up with bigoted belief systems, they can however help what they do with those beliefs when they are reasonably challenged. Why is that so tedious?

Your boss is asking if it's because disabled is akin to the old Ali G joke, which highlighted the fact that anyone can be a racist or bigoted... 'is it because I is black'

because the colleague was disabled, sorry typo

cfc Thu 04-Apr-13 13:27:19

Wow, OP lit the touch paper and fairly fucked off, eh?!

AmberLeaf Thu 04-Apr-13 13:43:57

Custardo. Yes it is good to educate, but there is ignorance and there is willful ignorance.

Sometime people don't want the facts to get in the way of their racist/disablist rant.

On MN sometimes it would be nice to debate some educational stuff without everybody backing down the minute someone with SN came into the discussion, or transport in general without working out how to fit 3 wheelchairs and a buggy - or toilets - OMG the furore about bloomin toilets and who can use which ones in which particular circumstances

You need to understand that most reasonable people, once they are aware of disabilities, will see that their energy would be better spent thinking about what small steps they could take to make life easier for those that need a little consideration/support. Rather than ranting how 'its not fair' blah blah blah and moaning about how much it impacts their life.

ginslinger Thu 04-Apr-13 13:46:09

what educational stuff can't be discussed on MN because of 'political correctness'. Name one thing. Go on, I dare you

ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 13:52:09

seeker - yep - boss said "ok fine" - but did not apply appropriate sanctions because he was afraid of his management thinking of him the way he had thought of me.....

Who exactly do I ask about words - I've tried on threads before - but then it degenerates into
"my cousin is black and prefers that to coloured, but his wife says she's coloured 'cos black has negative connotations"
"so and so's aunty's boyfriend's brother uses "queer" not "gay" "

And yes - on the feminist board I have actually been "told" that I conform to the patriarchal view that women must dye their hair and shave their legs - that I might THINK it is my want/opinion, but it has been ingrained into me from birth etc.... it is scary over there.... but not in RL

joiem..... - I live in a predominantly white, middle class, area surrounded by married couples(male/female) on the edge of the Cotswolds, good schools, low crime, "naice" area....

and as for an instance on the SN at school - there was a debate going about kids at school bullying/messing around in class, a debate gets started on what can be done, some good ideas etc, then - "but MY child messes around because of SN, what do you expect ME to do" - the thread stops...... it has happened more than once so I stay away from those topics now.... it has become almost as if EVERY misbehaving/aggressive child has either SN or not-yet-diagnosed SN.

ginslinger Thu 04-Apr-13 13:55:06

I don't see your example of SN in school as an example of political correctness

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 14:00:08

Erm, but those people are making a valid point, aren't they? confused Assuming their child actually does have SN. Their needs have to be taken into account.

It's no good having "good ideas" for school activities that don't cater for a portion of the class. That's not a "good idea". Anymore than you can have a good transport policy that doesn't consider wheelchair users. That isn't a good transport policy. It doesn't cater for all the people who might want to use transport.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:00:45

I think you should look at the recorded crime statistics for your area and see what percentage change, if any, there has been over the past three or four or five years. Generally the trend is the other way, crime is decreasing, but these things tend to stay quite stable. I promise you crime as a whole has not quadrupled anywhere. Our perceptions are easily distorted.

ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 14:02:58

It has become non-PC to mention the concept of naughtiness WRT children because a naughty child is always equated to a SN child - as in "well my child bites/hits/screams because he has personal space issues - not because he is naughty, what do you expect me to do about it" - so people back off from the thread, people stop talking about bad behaviour.

I know there are a lot of SN children, I know there are a lot of kids who misbehave too - what I don't "get" I guess is why kids with SN never misbehave...

Latara Thu 04-Apr-13 14:05:08

Being 'Politically Correct' should be renamed 'Polite and Correct' because that's basically what using the 'right' words (ie 'black not 'coloured') is - it's just polite (and not difficult!!).

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 14:07:01

Am I through some kind of looking glass here? People talk about children, their own and others, being naughty in all kinds of contexts on this site ALL THE TIME.

Latara Thu 04-Apr-13 14:08:04

One friend works at a school for SN kids and yes, they do misbehave - she tells them to behave (as much as they can within the parameters of their particular problems).

The children at that school are expected to not swear (unless they have Tourette's) for example.

AmberLeaf Thu 04-Apr-13 14:08:50

I know there are a lot of SN children, I know there are a lot of kids who misbehave too - what I don't "get" I guess is why kids with SN never misbehave

Shit, you're on to something there I think!

I must make an appointment with my sons paediatrician to discuss her incorrect diagnosis of autism.

It was just plain old naughtiness all along, why didn't I think of that...

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 14:09:26

What Amberleaf said. For "backing down", read "actually thinking about things and realising that they've been a bit of an arse."

And which "crime figures" are you talking about? I work in the criminal justice system and I have never heard anyone say "Ooh, crime figures have doubled." They might say that robberies are up x% since 2007, or that there's been an increase in violent crime.

The only circumstances I can imagine where "crime figures" could really "quadruple" following an influx of people from "somewhere else" would be a very small and law-abiding island where four people went on holiday and got drunk and disorderly.....

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 14:16:34

I live in a predominantly white, middle class, area surrounded by married couples(male/female) on the edge of the Cotswolds, good schools, low crime, "naice" area....

Just what area was it (I live in the Cotswolds too!) that had a sudden influx of people from somewhere else that caused crime statistics to quadruple.

I will not I will not say utter fucking bullshit stuff and nonsense, (damn I said it) By the way can you not see that spouting this kind of unsubstantiated guff could be the reason why your boss thinks you have a hidden agenda with minority groups and calls you on it?

ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 14:16:49

OK _ have looked at the crime figures - on UKCrimeStats.com for our area
only the antisocial behaviour increased 4x (12 to 49)
violent crime only doubled (2 to 4)
burglary went from 1 to 13 - quite a rise
and vehicle crime went from 4 to 35 (almost 9 times),
robbery went from 0 to 2
and other crimes from 9 to 30..... in one month...

and I did not ANYWHERE mention immigration

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 14:17:45

ByTheWay..please please educate yourself before running off at the mouth.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:19:07

The island example made me giggle! Bytheway1, your claim would mean that, say your constabulary records on average 25 incidents of vehicle crime a year then one year it either leaps to 100 or there are 75 extra incidents that are not reported - in the latter case how would you know they had occurred? The British Crime Survey?

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 14:19:35

i.e about why some behaviours of children with ASD (not "SN children") might appear to be like bad behaviour but actually aren't.

And why taking that into consideration is important and not "PC stifling of debate".

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 14:20:43

its easy to be flippant, i do it all the time. I think it takes a conserted effort to listen to people like bytheway1 because mumsent world is a peculiar thing and isn't real - unortunatley many people think just like bytheway1, it would be nice if bytheway1 could say - 'yes i see your point' which will absolutely not happen with flippancy

"The only circumstances I can imagine where "crime figures" could really "quadruple" following an influx of people from "somewhere else" would be a very small and law-abiding island where four people went on holiday and got drunk and disorderly.....~" i did lol at this though <snigger>

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:21:12

In what period bytheway1? Over the past year? Who are 'the new people'?

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 14:21:23

Incidentally, what's the relevance of couples being male/female when describing a "naice" area. confused

Are you trying to sound like a bigot?

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 14:21:51

It takes me a concerted effort to discuss with people like bytheway1 because to me they are just spouting stuff they read in the Daily Mail which makes me a) angry and b) cringing

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 14:21:52

Okay I have read this thread quite closely but I am prepared to accept I may have missed something

By the way where did anyone say you did mention immigration? I quoted you as saying that there was a sudden influx of people from somewhere else. Your own words. Again sorry if someone else has put words in your mouth

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 14:22:32

But I am aware people do think like this. Would be nice to educate them but IME it's just wasting your energy as they just think you are being the "SN brigade" and "PC gorn mad" etc etc ad inf.

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 14:23:43

is that 12 to 49 instances or individuals?

it could be one pissed up white british fella singing rather loudly on the way back from the pub nightly.

and you don't know the ethnic origin of the perpetrators - or do you? does it give this info?

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 14:24:39

I went to the Isle of Man once - my father's family were manx but we'd never been back there.

On the way from the airport, the taxi driver asked us about London's immigration problem and then proudly informed us that "We had an illegal immigrant once. We put him in prison and then deported him."

They might have had another four since then....

Fortunately everyone else we met there turned out to be lovely - the taxi driver is presumably employed by the Manx tourist board to put off all but tourists who really want to visit.

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 14:24:44

travelling/gypsy community?

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:26:39

maybe it was travellers, but it is interesting to wonder what constitutes anti-social behaviour in an area as uptight as the Cotswolds - being a lesbian? Not having a funny accent?

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 14:28:07

Martians? Amish? Northerners?

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:28:47

Isn't Cotswolds already in the north?

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 14:30:38

No. Nothing below Scotch Corner counts as the north. Everyone else is "bloody southerners"

[northerner in edge-of-Cotswold-exile]

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 14:30:51

Isn't Cotswolds already in the north?

grin

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:32:37

anything in the middle and up or across is 'north' or 'other'

[graduate of Watford Gap style geography course]

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 14:33:01

The question of SN/naughty isn't really an issue unless you think SN is the same as being naughty.

If there's is a debate about behaviour in schools it has to cover
A) nt children being naughty and what sanctions are appropriate
and
B) children with SN being naughty and what sanctions are appropriate
and
C) behaviour which may seem like naughtiness but is actually a behaviour caused by/as a result of SN and how you deal with that.

They are different. I have nt kids and a child with SN. If I tried to parent them all the same it would be a failure.

Pretending that all children can be treated in exactly the same way in school would be a failure.

How is talking about that PC gorn mad. Unless you refuse to believe that C) exists.

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 14:33:24

Anyway, we're not allowed to say "northerners" anymore.

We have to call ourselves "Persons from an equitorially-challenged place-zone"

PC gorn mad, innit?

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 14:34:46

*OK _ have looked at the crime figures - on UKCrimeStats.com for our area
only the antisocial behaviour increased 4x (12 to 49)
violent crime only doubled (2 to 4)
burglary went from 1 to 13 - quite a rise
and vehicle crime went from 4 to 35 (almost 9 times),
robbery went from 0 to 2
and other crimes from 9 to 30..... in one month...*

Oh boy. Right, I know almost nothing about statistics, but fortunately you know even less. These numbers are tiny, and at least two (violent crime and robbery) don't look like statistically significant rises at all. The burglary rate going up x13 could be the result of a single burglar gang arriving in your area for a spree - that's how reactive to micro-events these figures will be. All figures at the ward level are going to show wild outliers depending on highly local circumstances, that's why we add them up to arrive at an overall regional/national trend. It's only with bigger aggregated numbers, over a series of months (and taking into account seasonal fluctuations) that you can really start to spot trends, you can't just say "This number's bigger than that number, I'm done!"

I'm not even clear what you're saying these stats mean. What people have arrived in the area lately that you're willing to finger for these particular crimes? And have you taken your suspicions to the local constabulary?

and I did not ANYWHERE mention immigration

Erm. Actually I think you were the first person to mention it, right there. Though it is hilarious that you were clearly so intent on watching out for other people mentioning it that you managed to read a mention of it into something someone else said quoting you.

I'm out, this is like fish in a barrel with targets painted on them.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:34:59

grin kungfu

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 14:35:51

But if anything the Cotswolds are slightly south of London! grin

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be thought of as a northerner, or indeed a Londoner (which I am by birth...)

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:37:38

blush

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 14:38:02

Prize to Mardybra for getting "wild outliers" into a post.

I was once involved in a case concerning a juvenile "gang" - in reality a group of friends who'd got a bit carried away about the idea of being "gangstas" and went on a rampage. They put robberies in their area up by 50% over the course of a few months.

An individual or small group can have a massive effect at local level - that's not a trend.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 14:41:24

No need to blush joie If I didn't actually live here I would have a clue where the Cotswolds were either and I would care even less

And Mardy I luff you!

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 14:41:53

I was once on a train when a skinny kid got on and, without any irony at all, shouted 'big up the Surbiton massive'

I don't know what reminded me but it is one of my fav moments ever

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 14:42:20

polishes geek award shyly

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 04-Apr-13 14:42:39

'I know there are a lot of SN children, I know there are a lot of kids who misbehave too - what I don't "get" I guess is why kids with SN never misbehave'

What a ridiculous thing to say.
One of the endless delights of my DS is working out which parts are AS and which parts are arsey teenager. Just like when he was younger, which behaviours were triggered by his SN and which were a direct effort to be an irritating little brother.
The people I know who are in a similar position recognise the dual nature of misbehaviour in their children, and are honest about it.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 14:43:38

Yes. My DD is like an 8 year old sized toddler with autism.

That is fun sometimes.

Latara Thu 04-Apr-13 14:46:26

The North is LONDON to me. I think the Cotswolds are up North.

But then i'm from Dorset.

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 14:46:36

You're not thinking of the Pennines, are you, joie?

They're definitely in the equatorially-challenged place-zone. And there's a nice tea-room there.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:47:06

Is Royston Vasey in the Cotswolds?

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:47:50

That's the place that springs to mind anyway.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 14:47:58

Wash your mouth out Joie grin

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:49:57

grin

ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 14:51:11

I do not read the Daily Mail .....

I just mentioned all the white/middle-class/male-female marriage stuff because that is actually "the norm" around here - sorry for living in "middle England"

I do not think SN is the same as being naughty.

Yes there was an itinerant group travelling through our area - they stayed for under a month, crime went up that month , they left, crime went back to normal levels - and has stayed that way... mmmmm yes - probably a complete coincidence... but it was nice seeing the local press tying themselves in knots trying to explain things in a PC way...

"The local constabulary" were very aware of where the increase came from.

And this thread is why I must get out more and mix with folks in RL rather than just be slagged off and told to get real and quote instances, whilst others tell me I was the first to mention immigration - ( Custardo did ask me "where did you get the immigration figures from" but hey ho - let's not let facts get in the way..)

seeminglyso Thu 04-Apr-13 14:51:40

oh dear another one of the 'pc gone mad' crowd..however what a heartening thread..looks like your on your own today OP, why not check out some EDL websites, I am sure they are all sick of it and you will get the response you were hoping for.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 14:55:13

Seriously, if you don't read the Mail, you should, as its articles would appeal to you.

AmberLeaf Thu 04-Apr-13 14:57:17

I do not think SN is the same as being naughty

You sure?

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 14:58:13

sorry for living in "middle England

Yeah, so am I! The lack of ethnic diversity is one of the main reasons I hanker to go back to London (yep PC loopy that's me)

I don't disagree with the benefits of RL over MN but living in the sort of one horse community that I do, sometimes MN reminds me that there is a real world beyond here, especially threads like this where it seems the majority are in touch with reality!

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 14:59:48

I don't know how the press should deal tactfully with an increase in 'anti-social' behaviour when travellers are nearby, it is not as if your nice indigenous to the area people are never committing similar acts or as if all members of the travelling community always do either. An increase in population, however temporary, will increase the rates of most types of offending and there is probably much higher local vigilance and willingness to report fairly minor instances when travellers are nearby.

ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 15:00:44

Yes AmberLeaf, I'm sure...

HerrenaHarridan Thu 04-Apr-13 15:05:10

You know I don't mean to swim against the tide here but...

If mn wasn't so pc I wouldn't get deleted for calling op a knob

I do think people should be able to say whatever they like, then we know who to round up and shoot

Have you ever actually seen the edl website, scary stuff!

On a lighter note I once had an invitation to give oral sex to a fascist stood under a poster portraying a presumably Muslim woman wearing a head scarf (not covering her face)
With 'blood' leaking from the joins of face and clothes and some cliche about womens lib.
If that wasn't ironic enough I was stood behind the police lines at an anti-fash demo at the time.

Fucking pillock!

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 15:21:07

I don't understand your sarcastic reference to SN children never being naughty then tbh.

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 04-Apr-13 15:30:18

So, ByTheWay, what did you mean by the comment

'I know there are a lot of SN children, I know there are a lot of kids who misbehave too - what I don't "get" I guess is why kids with SN never misbehave' ?

Dawndonna Thu 04-Apr-13 15:34:55

Nebulous Now is the time to use 'onanist'! grin

My special needs children are never naughty. Noisy, sulky, provocative, funny, clever, gorgeous, occasionally spiteful to one another, usually very supportive of one another. Oh, just like the rest of the population!

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 15:39:58

Ds2 has a great line in naughtiness. I am enjoying ATM his habit of asking me for a brownie and, if I say no, asking his dad for one as soon as I leave the room.
If dh asks if he asked me already he shakes his head.
Fortunately he then giggles, points at himself and shouts 'very naughty'

So not doing too well at the life of crime really. grin

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 15:40:37

Right. Come on all you anti pc people. A challenge

Tell me one thing you want to say that political correctness prevents you from saying.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 15:44:43

oh no , this will be grim reading.

MrsDeVere Thu 04-Apr-13 15:45:44

<sits down nicely and waits>

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 15:48:10

Popcorn anyone?

<skooches up next to Mrs DV>

Fenton Thu 04-Apr-13 15:50:12

Oh crickey Seeker, are you bored too? grin

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 15:53:33

Don't worry, everyone, I've done this before. You're quite safe.

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 04-Apr-13 15:54:24

Ummmm

Fenton Thu 04-Apr-13 15:56:13

<sits back and waits behind seeker>

MrsDeVere Thu 04-Apr-13 15:57:18

< fidgets >

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 16:00:13

Hold steady, people.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 16:06:22

Okay I have to go out now in reality got fed up with the DV woman's fidgetting! When I get back later tonight I want to see all the responses neatly catalogued and cross referenced. Seeker it was your idea so you're in charge!

AmberLeaf Thu 04-Apr-13 16:06:36

Shhh....he's thinking grin

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 16:19:02

i dont really think anything prevents me from saying anything - clearly smile

ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 16:24:00

It is more a feeling..... a feeling that no matter what you say someone will be offended .

For gay marriage - what about the Christians/Muslims?
Against - what about love/civil rights?
For immigration - what about the jobs?
Against - who is going to do the jobs?

So everybody gives wishy washy answers or they are labelled bigots by one side or the other... conversations become dull and boring and plain old vanilla ...

I have views somewhere in the middle - immigration - yes, we need diversity, we need different skill sets, but we don't need ghettos, we do need integration all through the communities, but people want to live where their friends and family live, but..... -

but whenever you start the conversation people INSTANTLY pick on whatever point you've made that they disagree with and it becomes all about that - so I just shut up... just saying the word ghetto is seen as un-PC - so maybe that is one of the things I would like to talk about that I feel uncomfortable talking about in the PC age....

I don't understand the list thing - sorry...

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 16:25:25

people being offended or not agreeing with you is NOT people being "PC", that's just a silly meaningless phrase.

It's just errr..people being offended due to their personal circumstances , or having a different viewpoint.

seeminglyso Thu 04-Apr-13 16:27:32

Just noticed the OP's username 'sickofthiscountry'....why because you feel you cant be a biogot?

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 16:32:39

I think you are worrying too much! If supporting same sex marriages offends people who already have the right to marry the person they love it's not something I would lose sleep over. It doesn't stop them abiding by the precepts of their own faith. Tolerance trumps that every time?

I know what you mean about immigration though, most people know it is a good thing but its difficulties are difficult to discuss without racist inferences being drawn.

Frogman Thu 04-Apr-13 16:33:05

I've just moved to Australia and have some beautiful black boy trees in our back garden. Except I've been told off for calling them that (which they've been called forever).

If the trunk was white and I called it a white boy trees would there still be the same outrage?

I love my black boy trees.

YAdefininitely notbeingunreasonable OP.

RubyGates Thu 04-Apr-13 16:35:45
ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 16:35:49

But it's the feeling - the feeling that political correctness will mark you out - no one has strong views because of the PC culture - no one will come out against anything that is the BIG thing (unless they hold completely opposite views) - like gay marriage at the moment - no one will say what they feel if it is opposite to the current climate.

I was using un-PC as in the current definition ":the term politically incorrect connotes language, ideas, and behavior unconstrained by a perceived orthodoxy or by concerns about offending or expressing bias regarding various groups of people."

So being PC is about not offending groups of people, it IS about that viewpoint being different from the orthodox..... sorry must be working from a different definition..

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 16:35:59

hmm

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 16:36:34

that hmm was for frogman

seeminglyso Thu 04-Apr-13 16:42:47

There are plenty of people all over facebook who are quite happy to spout bigoted nonsense and vile comments all over the place so I dont know what world you live in BytheWay1? I had to come off it the shite I was reading on other people's posts. I remember during the football all sorts of groups popping up about not being allowed to fly your st Georges flag or some such bollocks and the posts on there were disguting. Again that was all touted as 'political correnctness gawn maaad'...nobody was stopping the stupid idiots flying their flags. I think there are plenty of people who are happy to spout hateful intolerant views and you only have to watch question time to see that.

crossparsley Thu 04-Apr-13 16:43:13

Not forever, frogman. Before that they were called "bukkup" or "kawee". And given Australia's record on its treatment of black boys, girls, men and women who lived there before Cook, I don't think it's anything gone mad to accept another name. Really, would that be so hard if the plants are still as beautiful? A rose by any other name, etc.

RubyGates Thu 04-Apr-13 16:44:11

And here is a perfect example of what I was alluding to earlier:

"I must start this post by saying that I do think language choice can make a difference to perceptions and understandings of autism; that negative language can be detrimental and foster incorrect views about autism, and that positive (or neutral) language can encourage acceptance and better understanding. However, I’ve often seen these “language corrections” been used to shut down discussion, and to exclude people from taking part in discussions. Such language corrections also often come hand-in-hand with condescending and judgmental attitudes, that also serve to make the person being corrected feel belittled and shamed, regardless of the message or experience they were attempting to share."

From here:
autismandoughtisms.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/concern-over-politically-correct-autism-rhetoric/

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 16:44:18

joins you in giving frogman a hmm

ByTheWay1 Thu 04-Apr-13 16:46:31

seeminglyso - I don't do facebook - waste enough anonymous time with strangers on MN.... my social networking is face to face.... smile

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 16:46:52

But but but why would anyone want to use language steeped in a history of oppression, ignorance and injustice? Why?

crossparsley Thu 04-Apr-13 16:52:42

Also, bytheway, plenty of people are happy to "come out" against gay marriage. Never mind that they are by definition not affected (unless they are closeted and jealous, which is sad and i wish they did't feel they had to be). i do love this www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/are-you-being-persecuted-2013033064361

seeminglyso Thu 04-Apr-13 16:56:15

crossparsley that link was excellent thanks!

Frogman Thu 04-Apr-13 16:56:43

For goodness sake if you are black you are black. If you are white you are white. If you are sunburnt you are sunburnt.

Seems like some people just to find something to be offended by.

Next you'll be telling me I can't say blackbird. I really don't understand this outrage but have spoken with friends about it who say that people who are outraged just think it's the way they should act (outraged).

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 16:58:44

Different words have different meanings in other English speaking countries- the word 'wog' refers to people of Greek descent in Australia I believe (perhaps Frogman can confirm?), and does not seem to be as offensive as it is here.

That doesn't mean it changes its meaning or is any less offensive in the UK.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 16:58:54

Yes, that's just it Frogman hmm

Frogman Thu 04-Apr-13 17:00:32

Please tell me how you would describe a black man wearing a black suit and a white shirt. He has short brown hair and is 6 ft tall. No other distinguishing marks.

Please tell me how yhou would describe a white man wearing a black suit and a white shirt. He has short brown hair and is 6 ft tall. No other distinguishing marks.

Please tell me how you would describe an Irish man wearing a black suit and a white shirt. He has short brown hair and is 6 ft tall. No other distinguishing marks.

Please tell me how you would describe a Chinese man wearing a black suit and a white shirt. He has short brown hair and is 6 ft tall. No other distinguishing marks.

You get the picture?

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 17:00:43

Of course you can describe someone as black- who said you couldn't? confused

Of course, if you describe someone as a black, the meaning changes and it becomes highly offensive.

Language is subtle.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 17:02:31

How silly of some of us to imagine post-colonial insensitivity where there has always been complete equality and social and economic and cultural parity between all people everywhere on our lovely planet of tolerance and compassion for all.

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 17:03:04

If the man in a suit is in a room full of men of different ethnicities also wearing suits, then it is wise to describe his ethnicity.

If he's in a room full of blokes in uniform, he's the guy in a suit.

Where's the confusion?

Frogman Thu 04-Apr-13 17:03:58

kungfupanda. So do you not think that illegal immigrants should be dealt with by law of the land, same as anyone else? Don't quite understand what you are trying to say.

gordyslovesheep Thu 04-Apr-13 17:06:48

I think some people look for things to get huffy about and blame PC gorn mad - and it's always 'you can't say X,Y Z' anymore ...says who?

best take on pc ever

Frogman Thu 04-Apr-13 17:07:09

But I can't call the well known (until OTT political correctness got in the way) Black boy trees by their name? They don't look like white boy trees or pink boy trees or yellow boy trees.................because they are black. Hence the name.

Me being Welsh and all that would be quite proud at having a Welsh boy(o) tree named after me.

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 17:10:46

I don't know, Frogman- I'm not Australian. What that phrase signifies is specific to each country. You tell us if it's offensive.

In the UK, it would be offensive to describe a tree as a black boy tree, not least because of the historical significance of calling black men 'boys'.

gordyslovesheep Thu 04-Apr-13 17:17:00

call it what you like Frogman ...if your friends don't like it it is for you to consider why and either accommodate their feelings or be pig headed about it - not sure why you feel it's an example of PC gone mad though

seeminglyso Thu 04-Apr-13 17:17:36

gordyslovessheep That was brilliant..I cant move

gordyslovesheep Thu 04-Apr-13 17:18:43

Stewart Lee rules - fact grin

sudaname Thu 04-Apr-13 17:19:22

I am very pro pc and am sick to death of people, even teachers l kid you not or other professionals who should know better comparing my DGD (who has CF) to 'normal' children. She absolutely refuses to consider herself anything other than 'normal' and she just gets on with it. Then she overhears some halfwit saying 'Well, DGDsname did as well as the 'normal ' kids today' or whatever angry

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 17:24:13

google tells me about the grasstree

"The aborigines call it "balga," which means "black boy,""
e-how

wiki
"This name refers to the purported similarity in appearance of the trunked species to an Aboriginal boy holding an upright spear. Some people now consider this name to be offensive, or at least belonging to the past, preferring instead grasstree"

more reliable sources could be found, but on that evidence alone - it would prompt me to think that actually the name 'blackboy' could be offensive - and i would search further.

it can't therefore be compared to a blackboard - which was a black board - or a black coffee - which is a black coffee or a common black bird which at a distance appears to be a black bird.

Frogman Thu 04-Apr-13 17:25:35

Gawd sake...you want me to call them black men trees??

They are called black boy tree because their trunk is black and their "hair" is wild like a boy's.

If the tree looked like it was smoking a pipe and had greying hair then it might well have been called black man tree.

If the trunk was white they might have called it white man tree.

If the trunk had been white and curvaceous and beautiful and they called it white woman tree - would that have been a problem??

gordyslovesheep Thu 04-Apr-13 17:27:32

No one wants you to do anything - Frogman I think you are looking to be offended in a Jeremy Clarkson stylee smile

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 17:27:41

"They don't look like white boy trees or pink boy trees or yellow boy trees.................because they are black. Hence the name."

but given your own description above that the trunk is black and therefore looks like a black boy - i fail to understand how you cannot see this as offensive.

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 17:32:54

I repeat, I don't know if its offensive in Australia- is it?

In the UK, it would not be offensive to call it a black tree.

It would not be offensive to call it a boy tree.

It would be offensive to call it a black boy tree due to the historic connotations of calling black men 'boys' as a means to belittle and control them.

If you're looking for hard and fast logical rules in language, you will be sorely disappointed- all the examples you have would signify different things. Some would be offensive to some, others to others, some not at all. Complaining about how unfair that is is like nailing jelly to the wall. Language is organic, not a set of logical rules.

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 17:34:28

It would also be offensive in the UK to imply that black boys look like any sort of trees.

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 17:35:59

And before you ask, no, calling a black boy a black boy is not generally deemed to be offensive in the UK unless the context does not require his ethnicity to be stated.

sudaname Thu 04-Apr-13 17:39:11

Oh god don't start me off ! just thought of another one that people who should know better do. They describe her as 'oh you know -the little girl with CF' or 'that little girl who's poorly' or whatever - l overheard some mums at a party doing this - talking about her in terms of her condition instead of the little girl with the long hair or so and so's daughter or whatever, l actually tapped one on the shoulder once and told them her name - she was like this blush
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

joiemecconue Thu 04-Apr-13 17:39:11

I enjoyed that clip, thanks gordy, but got unexpectedly tearful when he said for a whole school year the only Asian child in his class was referred to (by the teacher) as 'the black spot'. Imagine.

So I agree with that comedian, life is better for 'political correctness' and I liked his definition of it too.

Frogman Thu 04-Apr-13 17:39:31

Mumsnet appears to be full of rampant left wingers these days. Good night. I'm off to have a nice cup of tea outside next to my beautiful black boy tree.

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 17:39:42

Oh FFS it's a tree. It doesn't look anything like a boy, on account of being a fucking tree. There's no sacred eternal responsibility to preserve any particular name that has been attached to it at some point. Call it whatever you like, but be prepared for the fact that if some people know more than you apparently do about the history of racist terms, they might be offended by it, in a way they are not, I promise, likely to be offended by "blackbird". Your call as to what you do about that. On the basis of this thread I'm predicting you ranting and everybody else backing away.

Saying all that you know, there's a Black Boy Lane in North London and when I last looked it's still on the map and still being referred to as such. These things tend to be locally mediated and locally negotiated, they are rarely subject to the kind of universalized rules the "PC gawn mad" lot claim. It's just incredible to me how such tiny things get turned into enormous wounded points of principle, it borders on persecution complex.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 17:44:03

"Mumsnet appears to be full of rampant left wingers these days"

Sadly not.

anyway what's that got to do with anything?

crossparsley Thu 04-Apr-13 17:44:11

Oh good god, frogman. Your neighbours think it's off and they have lived there longer than you. When in Rome?

You are obviously a bit thick. And you can't cope with new terminology (do you still say brontosaurus, or Constantinople, or Mongoloid?)

I could say what I think you are without insulting/hurting other people but I will leave that for another post.

tethersend Thu 04-Apr-13 17:45:26

I don't think you can say 'a nice cup of tea' anymore.

wink

sudaname Thu 04-Apr-13 17:49:52

Yes Madfirstlady there is a road called Whiteladies Rd and a Blackboy Hill in Bristol where l used to live and as far as l know they are still called same. Apparently there have been calls by various councils in the past to get them changed as they are non pc etc. but has always been voted against as the consensus was among black and white people that we shouldn't brush the citys shameful history of being a world slave trading centre under the carpet so we should keep these names on a 'lest we forget' basis.

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 17:54:13

That's very interesting, sudaname. And you know what, I bet to this day there are people living in places other than Bristol who heard about the debate in the news at the time and are still convinced that the street names DID actually get changed on account of PC gawn mad, and use it as an example of how they're not "allowed" to do/say xyz.

Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 17:54:56
Tortington Thu 04-Apr-13 17:56:31
MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 17:58:36

BAAAHA!

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 18:05:38

I would imagine that thoughtful white people in Australia would be incredibly careful about the language they used- the recent history of interactions between white Australians and the indiginous people is so very very shocking that anything that white people should be falling over themselves to do anything they can to mitigate the damage. And bearing in mind that in living memory, a white person would use the word "boy" to a native Australian man, even if he was old enough to be the white person"s grandfather, I would have thought that good manners, tact and sensitivity would show anyone that calling something a "black boy tree" is a bad idea.

crossparsley Thu 04-Apr-13 18:22:47

And here it is. Did you move to Australia precisely because it was, as many Austalian people I know in London, " the South Africa that got away with it"? Because, thank whatever, it it getting massively better and leaving you behind.

So call your plants "cockless trees" or "oh-my-world-other-people-exist" trees, pick whichever one you like.

Or try "I am a racist twat".

Andro Thu 04-Apr-13 18:25:12

Pagwatch - wrt to the 'sarcastic' comments about SN and naughtiness (I don't know if you had a reply):

It sometimes appears (rightly or wrongly), that when a child has SN that any and all inappropriate behaviour is excused as being a result of their SN. Now it may be the case that the behaviour is addressed in a different way (which is perfectly reasonable), however it is sometimes the case that in the eyes of the responsible adult a child with SN 'can do no wrong'...which sends the wrong message. I think there are a few people who are so scared of being seen as bigoted or 'anti' that they don't have the confidence to say x/y/z misbehaved - it's a lack of understanding.

OhLori Thu 04-Apr-13 18:27:15

Hi OP, see the attacks and name-calling you get on the first page, for even daring to express a non-politically correct opinion. Says it all!!

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 18:31:12

Ohlori- but she didn't express a non politically correct opinion. She has been asked repeatedly to provide an example of something she wants to say that she can't- and she hasn't. Just lots of vague oh, I get the feelings what I can't"s.

Would you like to suggest something you can't say because of political correctness?

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 18:35:07

FrogmanThu 04-Apr-13 17:03:58

kungfupanda. So do you not think that illegal immigrants should be dealt with by law of the land, same as anyone else? Don't quite understand what you are trying to say.

I have absolutely no idea what comment of mine this relates to. I don't think I expressed any sort of opinion on how illegal immigrants should be dealt with.

Although I did post once from soft play so I could quite possibly have posted absolutely any old nonsense due to extreme brain -addlement.

Dawndonna Thu 04-Apr-13 18:37:37

Mumsnet appears to be full of rampant left wingers these days. Good night. I'm off to have a nice cup of tea outside next to my beautiful black boy tree.
Onanism.

seeker Thu 04-Apr-13 18:38:33

"Mumsnet appears to be full of rampant left wingers these days"

I am Spartqcus!

Dawndonna Thu 04-Apr-13 18:41:04

Bugger off Seeker I'm Spartacus! grin

Sunnywithshowers Thu 04-Apr-13 18:46:18

Arf at Custardo

kungfupannda Thu 04-Apr-13 18:47:49

You might be Spartqcus, but I'm Spartacus.

At my first firm we had a very regular client - usually in court at least once a week. Let's call him Bob Spencer.

There was a very surreal incident where I was representing him in court, and he was sitting at the back waiting for his case to be called on.

The case before his came on and when the defendant was asked to identify himself he said "Bob Spencer" - not the name he had been under on the court list.

My client rose to his feet in a very Spartacus-like manner and said "I'M Bob Spencer". A lengthy row ensued as to who was the real Bob Spencer.

Everyone was transfixed.

ouryve Thu 04-Apr-13 18:48:45

My youngest boy with SN is being a right little turkey at the moment. Whacking me in the face with his elbows (which he's just been doing) is partly sensory seeking (it's evolved from turning my face around to examine my cheeks, which he does regularly), but it is naughty, too, and we treat it as such.

Cackling, singing loudly and screeching often results on catsbum faces from those around us. That behaviour is not naughty.

DS1 has just run across the room and thrown his fruit tube wrapper on the floor behind the sofa. Definitely naughty. He's on edge because DS2 is being so boisterous. That in itself is not being naughty, but his behaviour does end up difficult as a result.

sudaname Thu 04-Apr-13 18:53:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 18:57:08

Yes, it never happens that parents are blamed for their child's behaviour when they actually should be given a diagnosis.

Diagnoses are just so easy to obtain hmm

Andro Thu 04-Apr-13 19:03:00

FanjoForTheMammaries - of course it happens that a dx isn't given when one is needed, but it also happens that a few (hopefully only a few) parents will look for any reason for their child's behaviour bar a lack of basic parenting. Both situations are wrong and the latter makes things even more difficult for the former!

Dawndonna Thu 04-Apr-13 19:05:17

I don't think it's a generational thing at all. I think it's understanding.
Oh, and nobody said that Ian Huntley had his fucking pencil broken at school, or Mick Philpott. Unfortunately it was Maeread who was abused and continued to be so. Oh, and I'm in my mid fifties.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 19:15:26

Andro

I appreciate your response but it doesn't actually explain the contradictory statements from ByTheWay1

She said she doesn't equate naughtiness with SN and yet posted along the lines of 'yet children with SN never appear to be naughty.

And fwiw my son I am surrounded by parents of children with SN all of whom spend a huge amount of time trying to address their child's behaviours - whether SN related or simply naughtiness.

I rarely if ever encounter agents dismissing any behaviour because when your child has SN life is difficult enough for them. Why on earth would anyone make it harder by not attempting to check behaviours that are controllable .

I wonder if sometimes what you are describing is simply an on looker who cannot or will not understand tha occasionally behaviour that looks naughty is actually a manifestation of the child's condition.

Like the people who say 'can you stop him shouting' to me.
Frankly if I could stop him shouting I would. It is far more irritating to me who has to hear it far more often than you.

YouTheCat Thu 04-Apr-13 19:19:03

I've tried, but I can't be bothered to wade through the twatty posts.

OP, I suggest you move.

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 19:22:38

X-posted.
To be honest Andro in my range of difficulties in dealing with the general public, the ignorant views of a few who question my sons behaviour is beyond his control because they know someone who is a bit of a shit parent,aren't that high.
There are thick folk everywhere.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 19:26:23

i don't actually believe that any parents will pretend their child has a condition when they don't, andro. That is an urban myth. When you first realise your child has issues it is the worst thing ever and you automatically go into denial for a while, in fact.

Corygal Thu 04-Apr-13 19:37:55

Sometimes naughty/repellent = SN, like it or not.

Spare a thought for those of us in the 'general public' who've been left silent with horror over the years by a child we know well, only for the poor little grl to be diagnosed some time later.

Thank GOD we stayed polite throughout - if ever there's an argument for smiling and nodding (not to mention dodging) that's it. Birth defect caused it, since you ask.

Awful - the diagnosis took 4 years. During which time, reasonably enough, the family elders banned her from the house and the mother couldn't get anyone to take any of the children, even for a party.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 19:49:17

Everyone should read that post and remember it if they see a child, especially one of over toddler age, kicking off in public.

And hold back the tuts and glares.

Simontowers1 Thu 04-Apr-13 19:49:54

I don't agree with the OP but I can kind of see how people come to such views. I actually think it is more the climate that over-zealous political correctness creates that is the problem and this is insidious in its nature. I spent a few years working in the public sector and there is a paranoia among managers about ending up in a tribunal for various forms of discrimination. I also saw two very blatant examples of ethnic minorities playing the system and basically playing on this paranoia. Political correctness, taken to extremes, can be damaging, of that there is no doubt.

Sunnywithshowers Thu 04-Apr-13 19:59:53

Simon, do you mean 'ethnic minorities' or 'people from ethnic minorities'?

AmberLeaf Thu 04-Apr-13 20:03:13

Sudaname. That's what I'd call 'reasons not excuses' there is IMO, when concerning childrens behavior, a reason for everything. If you can understand the reason behind the behavior (good and bad) then you stand a better chance at discouraging bad behavior and encouraging the good.

That applies to children in general, of course some children with SNs will display what to most is bad behavior, but may not be doing so wilfully and not much can be done about that...apart from everyone else being less judgy smile

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 20:11:53

I also saw two very blatant examples of ethnic minorities playing the system and basically playing on this paranoia. Political correctness, taken to extremes, can be damaging, of that there is no doubt.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!! I win!!

Simontowers1 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:13:13

Sunnywithshowers - is there a difference? Please explain :-)

Andro Thu 04-Apr-13 20:21:09

Pagwatch - agree totally that there are people everywhere who are of questionable intellect.

i don't actually believe that any parents will pretend their child has a condition when they don't, andro.

Unfortunately I've seen it, 'ADHD' was the cause of ALL bad behaviour without exception (no dx, but the mother told everyone it was ADHD) - the truth was her son had been left to run wild with no attempt at discipline (witnessed many times). When was ultimately assessed there was nothing wrong with him.

Wow.

Ethnic minorities are groups of people about whom one can make statements eg ethnic minorities make up around 5% of the city's population.

People from ethnic minorities are individual people who act.

You meant "people (from ethnic minorities) who used their minority status to gain advantage". It was the person who did it, not the ethnicity.

Sunnywithshowers Thu 04-Apr-13 20:22:42

What Horry said, Simon.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 20:23:37

I am sure Sunny can answer for herself but I hope this helps Simon

To call people ethnic minorities suggests that this is what defines them and that's all there is to them, whereas their ethnicity is only one element of their being. Totally nonsensical in any case since, depending on location, they may not be in the minority at all. To say people from ethnic minorities says just that, they are people who are also part of many other sets.

To some this may sound like 'pcgm' but to me it's just a basic courtesy showing respect for people as individuals.

Hope I haven't misrepresented you Sunny

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 20:24:34

Yes....and what Horry said!

Simontowers1 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:29:28

Okay, thanks for clarifying guys :-)

Sunnywithshowers Thu 04-Apr-13 20:30:38

Thanks Lottashaking, that's more articulate than I could manage smile

MadBraLady Thu 04-Apr-13 20:31:34

Here you see an example of a person NOT having a massive foaming fit of insecurity because someone has pointed out that something they said is a bit problematic. HTH others!

Sunnywithshowers Thu 04-Apr-13 20:34:05

^^ This. smile

Pagwatch Thu 04-Apr-13 20:34:54

Andro

The quote you highlighted wasn't mine.

Nevertheless I think taking one example of a parent believing their child had a condition when it subsequently turned out not to be the case, and suggesting that that is evidence that it happens a lot is a bit nonsensical really.

I know many many people with children with SN. I have met lots of people whose children seem to have behaviours indicative of SN but the parents won't accept that that is even a possibility. I have learnt never to suggest to a parent that their child may have difficulties because for the majority of parents the news will be some of the worst of their lives.

I have never yet met a parent determined that their child has SN when they haven't.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 04-Apr-13 20:37:09

Agreed..in fact I feel sorry for the mum in Andro's example because it is possible a diagnosis was missed and everyone then thought it meant her parenting was at fault.

MrsDeVere Thu 04-Apr-13 20:45:18

Last time I looked the Blackboy pub was still called the Blackboy pub.
Its in loony left land.

Haringery.

Where the myths about Black bags and black boards were invented. General election dirty tricks in the 70s.

Stupid people still believe them to be true.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 20:52:55

Gosh Mrs DeVere your post has given me a real flash back! I used to mix with a group of right wing fuckers people broadly out of sympathy with Socialism who used to refer to Brent and Haringey as though they were Sodom and Gomorrah. It was a kind of shorthand: someone said B and H and smiled knowingly as though no more need be said and everyone else nodded sagely and muttered 'ah yes Brent and Haringey'

This was in the 80s. I have made new friends since then

Chipstick10 Thu 04-Apr-13 20:58:23

I know many people from Brent, a lot of my family and friends in fact, think they might have a different view point to you though.

Lottashakingoinon Thu 04-Apr-13 21:00:23

Sorry if I wasn't clear: I think that part of London is ace!!! grin

Theshriekingharpy Thu 04-Apr-13 21:55:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lottashakingoinon Fri 05-Apr-13 07:03:28

For those of you who cba to read George Carlin's quote (and I'll admit to having skim read) it can be summed up by the following two sentences

What's the world coming to when you can't freely use the n, p, r words?

and

I'm a twat

Thanks K8

Lottashakingoinon Fri 05-Apr-13 07:04:44

And it's a shame because if George Carlin is who I think he is, he's generally NOT a twat!!

Lottashakingoinon Fri 05-Apr-13 07:10:41

Phew, just Googled. I was thinking of JEFF Carlin. No idea who George Carlin is/was.

I'm a twat (but still right about the summary grin)

Theshriekingharpy Fri 05-Apr-13 07:50:33

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker Fri 05-Apr-13 08:06:02

The trouble with the George Carlin thing is that he is right about the powers that be's use of weasel words to describe things they don't want us to think about, but wrong about defining people by their physical attributes and so on. He is conflating two completely different things.

nooka Fri 05-Apr-13 08:09:47

It is a stupid piece of writing though, conflating marketing talk (bathroom tissue vs toilet paper) medical terminology/jargon (shell shock vs post-traumatic stress disorder) with the apparent desire to be offensively disablist.

Using 'passengers in need of special assistance' is not using language to hide the truth or euphemistic. It is clear, straightforward and meaningful. There is absolutely no need to call anyone a cripple, and you have to be incredibly stupid not to realise that it is an offensive term (that it's used in some Bibles is utterly irrelevant). Plus of course there is the later bit where it is clearly implied that all the 'cripples' are poor stupid individuals too.

nooka Fri 05-Apr-13 08:15:22

yes and that too seeker. I'm not sure if the bigger problem with writing like that is that it makes the important points he makes (terrorism/freedom fighter, assassination/neutralization) effectively disappear, or if it's more that it makes the unpleasant/stupid/bigoted writing appear somehow more reasonable.

Lottashakingoinon Fri 05-Apr-13 08:19:16

Thanks for the critique Harpy but you're wrong on both counts. Especially the second. At times however my typing is awful. Have a nice day!

Seeker and Nooka yes that's what I thought!

seeker Fri 05-Apr-13 08:19:46

There's a fab bit in Hitchhiker's Guide where a robot says something like "You will be revoked. That's K I L L E D- revoked."

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Fri 05-Apr-13 08:21:37

Firstly, the Carlin rant is exaggerated for comic effect because, well, he's a comedian. "You can't even call