To start a benefits "myth busting" thread so that I can link the thickos of Facebook to it

(492 Posts)
MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 15:33:24

When they start moaning about how people on benefits can afford diamond shoes and other such items.

I'll start.

1. Housing benefit is mostly paid out to WORKING people. So all of this talk of going out and getting a job and buying their own home if they don't like the bedroom tax is a flawed argument.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 15:36:43

2. ILLEGAL immigrants don't get ANYTHING. They're illegal, you see? The system doesn't know they're here and therefore cannot pay anything out to them, never mind £1 million for a house in Chelsea.

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Tue 02-Apr-13 15:37:12

Illegal immigrants don't get paid thousands of pounds of benefits. Because they're here illegally. They're not in the system so how can they be paid anything?

Would also like to link a few thickos to this thread. grin

YANBU

Bedroom tax is probably going to put HB amounts up as it will force people into private accomodation as there isn't enough smaller social housing to move to.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 15:37:40

Indeed. I have been to the council today to pay my rent (in full) but far from being full of the workshy hmm it was packed with little old ladies and people trying to pay in their lunch break.

It's a disgrace.

Motability cars are not free, they are paid for with DLA.
They never belong to you either.

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Tue 02-Apr-13 15:38:26

Oops, cross post. Great minds think alike!

Oh! And it's really fecking hard to get passed by ATOS (which you need to claim disability benefits) even when you are genuinely very disabled

SherbetVodka Tue 02-Apr-13 15:39:28

YANBU

This article about ten lies we're told about welfare would be worth linking to as well.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 15:39:33

Your tax does NOT pay for anyone's flatscreens or Nike Air 1000's. Stop feeling like you, personally, subsidise the lives of poor people.

Dawndonna Tue 02-Apr-13 15:39:37

Why just link it to facebook, trust me, there are plenty on here that think all those on benefits of any description are workshy scroungers. I have just been told I'm not doing the government or the taxpayers any favours by looking after the four disabled people in my family and why should I expect state help.
That was on a thread, on here, not ten minutes ago.

limitedperiodonly Tue 02-Apr-13 15:42:52

Excluding EU migrants from entitlement to social housing is going to cost councils, meaning you, more because those eligible will still have to be put up but in more costly private accommodation.

Tee2072 Tue 02-Apr-13 15:43:26

DLA is not means tested. You can be working/have nice things and still get DLA.

ParsingFancy Tue 02-Apr-13 15:43:42

Useful mythbuster here: "The Lies We Tell Ourselves"

SirBoobAlot Tue 02-Apr-13 15:44:12

The amount of people claiming benefits they shouldn't be is drastically smaller than the benefits that are not being claimed by people who need them.

mumofweeboys Tue 02-Apr-13 15:44:45

But people from europe can come here unaccompanied and claim tax credits for kids back in home country and they can claim jsa. To me that just seems wrong.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxcredits/start/who-qualifies/new-arrivals-intro/family-not-in-UK.htm

Is that not because we can also claim benefits in other EU countries as well? That's not a UK government decision, it's a condition of being part of the EU.

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 15:49:48

That when 'young girls' have babies the Bounty pack does not contain the keys a new house hmm

Paraphrasing a million different idiots.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 15:50:58

But we are part of the EU. That is what happens. It's not just the UK giving migrants an easy wad of cash. If they are working and paying N.I then they are as entitled to it as we are.

ParsingFancy Tue 02-Apr-13 15:51:44

Lots of sick and disabled people are being affected by the cuts.

Not everyone too sick to work gets DLA, which is for specific mobility and personal care needs. (And is actually going to be cut from 20% of people currently receiving it.)

So very many people with chronic, disabling medical problems which prevent them leading a full life or holding down a full-time job are being hit by the benefits cap, the bedroom tax, etc.

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 15:52:29

Also you are not just 'given' DLA.

You have to fill in a massive form, provide evidence from medical experts and generally the decision maker will also write for more information from your doctors etc.

It's not like you tick a bloody box and poof money angry

limitedperiodonly Tue 02-Apr-13 15:52:46

There's a theory that we can get round that and avoid being penalised by the EU if we withdraw entitlement to those benefits from British citizens too shro

I can see that going down well with Duncan-Smith and the rest of them.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 15:53:30

Wouldn't bother. Too many disablist bigots round here.

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 15:53:46

Grammar fail blush

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 15:54:14

DLA forms are an exercise in destroying your soul, especially if you are filling them in for your kids.

limited Yes, I am sure that would make their day. Hopefully the situation will never get that bad.

I also completely agree about the DLA forms, they are soul destroying and designed to try and trick you (lots of the same question, worded differently).

teenage mothers are not personally responsible for the downfall of civilisation
And for each "feckless teenage mother" there's a "feckless teenage father", but he's usually a lot less visible.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 15:57:11

Plenty of feckless fathers around who don't pay what they should for their kids, and not necessarily teenage ones.

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 15:58:23

It's fucking horrendous filling the DLA forms in for a child.

It might as well be called the 'How to feel disloyal to your child and other self-esteem boosters'

Yes, and feckless fathers are a lot less likely to be left literally holding the baby as a badge of their fecklessness
(What is feck anyway, how can one be feckless)

Sorry OP, just spotted the word "benefits" in your title, I've made it more general

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 16:01:33

Benefits do not afford someone a lavish lifestyle, as the Daily Mail would have you believe.

£53 per week to live on
Housing benefit to cover rent, none left over
Council tax subsidised but still some needs to be paid, so that comes from £53 per week
Food, electric/heating/water bills and general life must be paid for from £53 per week.

Where is this lavish lifestyle coming from?

Tee2072 Tue 02-Apr-13 16:01:56

"So very many people with chronic, disabling medical problems which prevent them leading a full life or holding down a full-time job are being hit by the benefits cap, the bedroom tax, etc."

Yes. This is me. Although I do not get benefits because my husband's salary is too high. Unfortunately, we also have debt we are trying to pay off so his salary is not quite enough. And I earn very little Freelancing because I really can't work fulltime and really need to be able to take a day (or week) off when I need to because I feel so poorly.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 16:02:10

Either way, Stealth, we're all fecked.

Technically still valid as a lot of the time this is the reason why Mothers might end up having to claim/claim more in benefits.

It takes 2 and people forget that.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 16:03:49

Oh and if you have a spare room, 14% of your £53 is getting paid to the government.

textfan Tue 02-Apr-13 16:05:44

Try filling in a Dla form for mental health issues...a demonstration in banging head against brick wall!! The amount of money being "saved" in these changes will be lost to private renting fees. Also this amount could easily be recovered from bankers in bonuses alone. Punish those that caused the problem not the sick vulnerable and poor.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 16:05:55

There is not a plethora of smaller council accomodation for these fuckers with a spare box room to move in to. If you have a spare room you are fucked both ways: find a smaller property (you won't be able to) or pay up £14 per week (and maybe have no heating)

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 16:06:20

It's a total joke Marmalade some people are so scared that someone else might have something they haven't.

I posted this the other day on a thread it's another thing that rages me;

I hate hate the new trend of leaving 'letters' on Facebook pages.

Something like;

Ten Downing Street Page

Dear Mr Cameron

I'm just a ex-soldier who lost all his toes, I have a wife and 3 children. I have 3p in savings and a chicken.

Or

I'm a just really old and frail person who worked for a hundred years carrying bricks.

<Insert tale of woe>

If I was an immigrant then I would get a free house and £50,000 a year on arrival.

<Insert more bollocks>

371,000 likes.

Disclaimer Obviously not an attack on actual soldiers or old people

Tee2072 Tue 02-Apr-13 16:07:48

Well, if he has a chicken... grin

limitedperiodonly Tue 02-Apr-13 16:10:06

An attack on them would be all right if they had a spare room.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 16:11:57

"

It's a total joke Marmalade some people are so scared that someone else might have something they haven't."

And that is it, isn't it? This is the goverment's weapon in getting us to turn on the poorest people. They are getting something YOU are NOT, even though you are hard-working. hmm Fuck that shit. I would not swap my life of working for the life of a person on benefits.I would not want to be at the mercy of this government. Never in a million years. People living on benefits and depending on the goverrment are to be pitied, not envied.

Ohhh, sweet Jesus, yes, please start a myth busting thread.

Although ... I am totally on your side against the immigrant/benefit bashers, but ...

Illegal immigrants sometimes get access to free services (eg., someone who's overstayed their visa can go to A&E like anyone else). Some illegal immigrants, who're still waiting to hear if they'll be classed as asylum seekers might get some charity support (it's shit, and it's fucking depressing seeing the hoops people have to jump through when they are here because they're in fear of their lives).

I know you know but I posted in the interests of not giving ammunition to those who like to jump up and down.

Some of mine:

- Women are not made of sugar and spice. They do not automatically love pink. It is not the soul of post-modern wit to make out that men 'lol, don't see dirt innit' while claiming 'men are very visual so they need porn to get off'. Only one of those things, at most, can be true, and I think we could all accept they're both - for want of a better word - bollocks.

- It's very hard to 'come here and get citizenship' by marrying an English person. DH still has no recourse to public funds. He has been educated here since he was 7, lived here full time since 18, and he's been married to me since he was 23. He's 26 now.

- Basically 'What SPB said because she is always right', but, I know plenty of women who were teenage mothers and they all seem to be doing very nicely for society, thanks very much, HE and all.

- The meme 'my mum slapped me and it did me no harm' is a pile of offensive shite. Nobody gives a fuck. Some people survive natural disasters, but we don't all pile on insisting that only wusses complain about an earthquake. So, let's accept if you didn't suffer from being smacked, that's nice, and the people who did suffer, maybe they deserve not to be put down with stupid comments like that?

- It is grindingly depressing and horrible to live on minimum wage and the state of a lot of rented housing (inc. private, but I'm sure that's the tiny tip of the iceberg) is utterly shit and shameful for a developed country.

It stuns me how many people do not realize that it is normal for people who rent their homes at the low end of the market to put up with mould - which they can only paint over - growing on walls, cupboards and ceilings and damaging their health. It is normal to put up with being very cold, and it's not that unusual to find that a 'reasonable' time in which to have a boiler repaired turns into weeks with no hot water.

This is not me having a go at the many decent or excellent LL there are, but I do think a lot of people who own their own homes would be shocked to see how slum-like rented properties at the low end of the market are.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 16:16:36

Be nice if there were some full time jobs out there in the first place.

I am part time on permanent hours. It is not enough and I want to work full time but there are no jobs, unless I'm prepared to give up my permanent hours for temporary/maternity cover or go via an agency.

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 16:17:20

There are not loads of jobs out there, and many are zero hour contract jobs anyway.

So stop saying it's easy to get a job, it's not.

Oh god the DLA forms are soul destroying, they want to know the ins and outs of a cat's backside and they want you to word it 2,000 different ways.. DS had a for life award but apparently they've decided to change that so now I'll have to sit and fill it in again in Sept ... Oh joy.

YY usual.

Also, saying people should move to where the jobs are, is all very well if those jobs are permanent and sufficiently high-paid to cover your moving costs/get you a bank loan on the strength of the contract. If they're seasonal minimum wage, oddly enough, people will need to have money before they can afford to go moving across the country.

Seriously ... the number of times I've seen someone claim that if only the workshy people in the North East just moved down to London for the Christmas jobs they'd be minted. hmm

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 16:23:00

'Foreigners' don't come over here and take our houses. They come here to work, and when they find that work (because they have the necessary skills relevant to the job, not because they're cheap labour, that's what the national minimum wage is for) a lot of them house-share. They don't waltz into the council office and get given keys.

Wrt Housing Benefit, if you are stuck in private rental (given the shortage of social housing, that's quite likely), then not only will you not have any HB spare after paying rent, you are quite likely to be topping it up out of what little money you do have.

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 16:32:53

My sister gets housing benefit and has had to urgently find somewhere to live.

You would think that she had phoned the estate agents (more than 10) and told them she was coming round to piss on their children at the reaction to the 'Do you accept housing benefit' question.

WestieMamma Tue 02-Apr-13 16:42:34

Britain is not the final destination of the majority of the world's asylum seekers. The number we take in is a mere drop in the ocean and below the European average.

Oh! And that reminds me of a good one.

Britain is not the most tolerant country in the world. We don't put up with amazing liberties other countries would never dream of, because they are harsher to immigrants. In fact, our own PM has been criticized by the EU for his xenophobic comments.

We don't give people benefits they'd never dream of elsewhere. We're not amazingly lenient. In fact, we're on the edge of violating human rights law because of how racist and anti-immigration our government are.

skratta Tue 02-Apr-13 16:50:56

If there were, lets say, 4 rabbits and 2500 people. Each person is encouraged to own a rabbit and having a rabbit is generally a good thing. But there are only 4 rabbits available. So 2496 people out of the 2500 won't own a rabbit. Rabbits are jobs. If there aren't full time or even part time jobs available...however much you encourage people or force people, there won't be more jobs and that means there won't be more people in work. You can't just get a job.

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 17:12:28

You cant just get a job while the abomination that is workfare exists. It was leaked out last week that a branch of Homebase has 21 people on workfare (how coincidental that they should take advantage of this "scheme" in the run up to Easter one of the biggest DIY weekends of the year.hmm And a pizza company had 100 people on workfare IN ONE BRANCH. ShoeZone used workfare the Xmas just gone instead of taking on paid workers. Its disgusting. And its a reason why Xmas temp jobs are like gold dust.

I think I'll just link people to this thread going forward!

I have a friend who has AS. She can't use public transport because of this, as crowds, too much noise, too close personal contact disturb her (as she puts it). She has mobility issues and walks slowly, with a stick. She cannot sit at a desk for more than 20 minutes without severe pain. She cannot work from a screen for more than 40 minutes or so without needing a break (visual problems), and cannot work outdoors (problems with lifting, gripping, walking unaided).

ATOS have decided that she is breathing and walking and therefore capable of work and not in need of (an adapted) motability vehicle. I honestly don't know what will happen to her.

Sorry for thread hijack

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 17:27:31

Well said, Darkeyes.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 17:27:50

As soon as you qualify for one benefit, eg child tax credit, you get a 'raft' of other benefits handed to you on a plate...

It is a myth that someone earning £16K and receiving child tax credits then receives free school meals, housing benefit, council tax benefit, free prescriptions, a goat, etc.

There are certain people on MN who would have you believe that earning £16K is actually the equivalent of earning around £40K because you get given all this extra FREE stuff! hmm whereas they have to work 18 hours a day 7 days a week to have even half the lifestyle you enjoy on minimum wage!

ParsingFancy Tue 02-Apr-13 17:28:18

The criteria for Incapacity Benefit/ESA have been made much narrower. But the JSA criteria to be available 35+ hours a week (or is it 40?) haven't changed.

So there are now people who are too well to get ESA. And too sick to get JSA or earn their living.

They are screwed.

gordyslovesheep Tue 02-Apr-13 17:29:48

most social housing stock is 3 bed roomed - there is not a plethora of available 1 and 2 bed homes - down sizing is not a simple solution

gordyslovesheep Tue 02-Apr-13 17:30:48

there are not enough jobs on the job centre database for the number of people seeking work

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 17:40:43

Can I just chip in here please. I dont particularly like the title of this thread. What if I started one that said 'Its a myth that benefit claimaints need the money, just get out and do a job, just like the rest of us'.

This thread is also very one sided and aggressive.

The fact is that we DO need to reform the benefit system, under Labour there was a huge increase in the number of people claiming. Why was that?

And now there are many many families who arent working, who pick their partners unwisely.

This isnt ONE person's idea (IDS) that NO ONE agrees with. There was some being interviewed on the BBC yesterday who had two spare rooms. He said it was unfair he would be expected to move but we never found out why he had two spare bedrooms.

My DB lives in a ex council flat in Central London. The block is full of people (mainly older generation) who have been there for years. His next door neighbour (early 60's) has never worked. Has said she didnt see the need after a while. Her children are long gone but she claims as they visit she needs the extra rooms just on the off chance.

I live near Slough, which is run down and has its own issues. I was in Costa a number of months ago. Two young girls with buggies were trying to decide how to get a bigger place and agreeing who they could sleep with to get that extra baby.

I am sorry, what is wrong about sharing rooms, I had to with my sister whilst I was growing up and she sleepwalked! It seems we are becoming more and more reliant on the state with an view that anything deemed different or unusual makes us immune from the changes.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 17:42:42

I am looking for some building work to be done (probably about £3k-£4k) I have called two companies, one hasnt bothered to call back and the other one said he would come last Tuesday... It has almost always been like that around here.

So, there are some jobs, its just that not everyone wants to do them!

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 17:44:37

This thread is also very one sided and aggressive.
Aggressive?

JakeBullet Tue 02-Apr-13 17:45:10

Maisie, those young girls in Costa are misinformed if they think having another baby will guarantee them a bigger place. In my area they will tell them to use the living room for the adults and give the bedroom(s) to the children. They have been doing that for a long time here...for at least the last three years that I know about.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 17:46:09

"The fact is that we DO need to reform the benefit system, under Labour there was a huge increase in the number of people claiming. Why was that? "

Because the so-called baby boomer generation started to reach retirement age. The majority of benefit payments go to pensioners, who are currently not effected by the cuts.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 17:46:25

"I live near Slough, which is run down and has its own issues. I was in Costa a number of months ago. Two young girls with buggies were trying to decide how to get a bigger place and agreeing who they could sleep with to get that extra baby."

I would have counted your opinion as valid until I read this crock of shit.

Are you IDS, maisie?

JakeBullet Tue 02-Apr-13 17:47:45

In my area two bedroom places are at a premium and you have to have medical need etc. to achieve a high enough points to qualify for the grading needed.

motherhen1949 Tue 02-Apr-13 17:48:18

Myth 3 all people on Benfits are looking for work

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 17:51:50

"I live near Slough, which is run down and has its own issues. I was in Costa a number of months ago. Two young girls with buggies were trying to decide how to get a bigger place and agreeing who they could sleep with to get that extra baby."

<Stifles laugh>

This is the problem with this fucking country, benefit claiming girls going to Costa. They should be round building your extension for you.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 17:52:14

Just because I dont agree with you doesnt make me wrong! In fact changes have just been introduced that says I am not the only one. This government was voted in by someone. Just because you dont agree with a change doesnt mean its wrong.

I actually would have gone further and looked at moving older people out of accomendation tbh. If I lost my job I would have to move, if I had five children they would be sharing rooms. Why is it so different on benefits. benefits are there for the very needy. They arent they to stay on forever

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 17:53:34

I don't see how this thread is aggressive in any way. It's merely pointing out common myths surrounding the benefit system. Who is it targetting exactly?!

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 17:54:08

Fancy, the fact is I am annoyed I am having to chase people to come and quote for some work. I thought there werent any jobs... How difficult is it to take a message from an answerphone and call someone back.

And there is no need to be rude and start swearing.

"Two young girls with buggies were trying to decide how to get a bigger place and agreeing who they could sleep with to get that extra baby."

So rather than assume they were stupid for thinking that would work, you assumed they were right and it would?

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 17:56:04

This is why it is agressive and is full of swear words:

'I would have counted your opinion as valid until I read this crock of shit.

Are you IDS, maisie? '

'This is the problem with this fucking country, benefit claiming girls going to Costa. They should be round building your extension for you. '

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 17:56:15

maisie joe i bet you wouldnt walk into a womens refuge and say to them "tut tut you shouldnt have picked your partner so unwisely"
Many abusive partners dont reveal their true colours on the first date.
A lot of them become abusive once the woman becomes pregnant because she is more vulnerable and in the abusers eyes less likely to leave him while pregnant. Your post reeks of mysogyny as well as the usual bash the poor rhetoric.

Ive said this on another thread today and i will say it here.
With the hatred and lack of compassion ive seen on these boards and in some cases in RL i really do think that if Golden Dawn tried to gain a foothold over here they would actually be successful and that terrifies me.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 17:57:25

Having a dog or even 72 dogs does not mean you qualify for additional benefits.

I am gob smacked at the amount of times I hear that apparently that's why people get dogs.

RandallPinkFloyd Tue 02-Apr-13 17:58:11

Ok, who put their money on 2hrs?

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 17:58:28

If maisie is a female as her user name suggests she proves that you dont have to be male to be a mysogynist.

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 17:59:53

Maisie, you said you thought this thread was aggressive in your first post. Those quotes were replies to that.

It's like, oh I don't know, you anticipated a negative reaction to your comments.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 18:01:45

"Just because I dont agree with you doesnt make me wrong! In fact changes have just been introduced that says I am not the only one. This government was voted in by someone."

All governments are voted in by someone. I don't quite understand what you are saying? Because some people voted in this government, we aren't allowed to disagree with them? confused A percentage of the population don't speak for all the population.

Anyway, I see that you're a compassionate person, maisie. <snigger> I hope that you don't ever become unemployed, disabledor elderly.

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 18:02:02

I can't stop laughing at

'Are you IDS maisie'

Being lumped in with the 'aggressive and rude' comments grin

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 18:02:31

We have as live one on this thread then.

BenjaminButton172 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:02:35

We dont need a list of benefit myths as most things people think about benefits and benefit claimants are untrue.

We just need people to open their eyes to reality and stop putting benefit claimants down.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 18:03:00

People on benefits get free water and free utilities

No they don't.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:03:34

The fact is these changes are going through and the welfare system does need reform. And Labour left a message when leaving office saying ''there is no money left'.

Of course their needs to be changes, we cannot afford to carry on as we are.

Its not hatred and lack of compassion. And the person who says that UK is not tolerant. Try telling that to a colleague at work who collected her DH's body after he was killed in Iraq and a group of fantatics were allowed to demonstrate saying ALL troops should be killed....

We are one of the most tolerant countries around.

And of course if there are better countries within EU, well why are we all staying here....

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 18:03:38

A not as*

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 18:03:59

Maisie but you are wrong. I've explained to you why the social security bill has risen. It is not due to silly girls in Costa, or builders who don't want to work for you, it's due to a large number of people reaching retirement age.

Furthermore. These cuts are not going to bring the bill down, they are going to increase it. Housing benefit payments are going to rise because social tenants will have to move into more expensive private rentals. Unemployment is going to rise because people have less money to spend which will mean less money going into local economies which will lead to more people on the dole. This will also lead to lower tax receipts and higher government borrowing.

And that's before you add in the rising cost of social care because cuts in disability services and benefits mean disabled people can no longer live in their own homes and have to move into residential care.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:07:13

I have never been unemployed, but why is that? Have I just been lucky? Why are some more lucky than others. My DH and DF voted Labour all their lives. Every election the red poster would go in the living room window. Both were not born in this country but both ended up doing 80 years employment. Were they lucky too...

And of course I will become old. Sadly I wont stay at this age forever.....

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 18:07:38

Perhaps you ought to go start that thread you would instantly have the company of several other quite stupid people who believe some of the things you do who forget that a conversation overheard in slough by two silly little girls who clearly have no idea about how the welfare system actually works is just that.

A conversation between silly girls who don't have a clue.

Rather than derailing this thread. Off you pop then dear

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:10:12

Just because you have explained something to someone on a thread doesnt make you right and them wrong!

I do agree that there is a group of people who will be pensioners when I am one, who havent worked for whatever reason who will also be expecting their pension. My DH's pension was given at 65. I am unlikely to see that much before I am 70.

There have always been disabled people. I have a cousin severely disabled from childhood. Why is it such as issue now.

BenjaminButton172 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:10:50

The main and probably only benefit that needs to change immediately is the one where pensionsers living in hot countries get winter fuel allowance. Or pensioners who are rich and dont need it still get it.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 18:11:19

"I have never been unemployed, but why is that? Have I just been lucky?"

Yes, you have just been lucky. So count your blessings and hope that it doesn't ever happen to you, because if it does I promise your opinion will change very, very quickly.

I remember people like Maisie in the 80s and 90s. They thought the social security system was too generous; then they lost their jobs and their homes and were astonished to discover the reality.

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 18:11:50

"Why is it such an issue now"

You're joking, right?

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 18:11:53

Oh Maisie, who has done a number on you? Is it the Daily Fail? Are you IDS? Do you believe all of those Thicko McThickington posts on Facebook telling you that the immigrants/unemployed are dragging the country to it's knees and laughing about it?

One of the most tolerant countries around? I imagine that Scandinavian countries would laugh in the face of being told that out of work people will be forced into free labour for big businesses.

And yeah, we can all ship off to Europe when we feel like it, can't we? What a ridiculous and downright stupid comment to make.

Where do you live that your colleague gets booed by the Muslims when collecting her dead DH's body AND you get to hear scheming, ne'er-do-wells in Costa coffee devising ways to get a bigger cahncil hahse? Where do you live? In one of Richard Littlejohn's wet dreams?

StillSeekingSpike Tue 02-Apr-13 18:13:07

'And now there are many many families who arent working, who pick their partners unwisely. '

YES!!!! Instead of a bedroom tax, we should have a 'Shit Ex Boyfriend tax'.]Jesus I''d owe the country MILLIONS wink

Maisie- I assume you'd have no problem with POLISH builders coming round to build yr extension?

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 18:13:44

"Just because you have explained something to someone on a thread doesnt make you right and them wrong! "

But I am right. This isn't a matter of opinion! Pensions account for something like 60% of the whole budget - so more than everything else combined.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 18:14:20

"There have always been disabled people. I have a cousin severely disabled from childhood. Why is it such as issue now."

Because it is now, after years of parents of disabled children clawing for the right to care for the children/get their children diagnosed etc, we are hauling these families back into the Victorian age. Honestly. It IS an issue. It just isn't an issue for you, so you don't/won't care.

BenjaminButton172 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:15:16

Maisie let me ask u a question seeing as u think u know it all.

What changes would u make to the benefit system? How would u reduce the countries debt?

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 18:15:17

10 lies told about welfare by Ricky Tomlinson.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/02/ten-lies-told-about-welfare

WestieMamma Tue 02-Apr-13 18:15:57

Just because I dont agree with you doesnt make me wrong! In fact changes have just been introduced that says I am not the only one. This government was voted in by someone.

The tories had 36.1% of the vote.

The eligible voter turnout was 65.1%

So only 23% of eligible voters voted for them. 77% of voters didn't.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 18:16:12

Ohhh here's a good one,

Apparently the dwp are allowed to decide you can't go on a date or have sex.

Because if you have a casual boyfriend you then can't be a lone parent.

Utter bollocks you can have sex with whoever you want.

WestieMamma Tue 02-Apr-13 18:19:13

There have always been disabled people. I have a cousin severely disabled from childhood. Why is it such as issue now.

Because a while back we as a civilised society decided they should have equality with able people and be given the resources necessary to live full and independent lives, as opposed to being trapped in their homes or asylums and only being allowed the crumbs we threw them.

StillSeekingSpike Tue 02-Apr-13 18:20:53

'After all, even the
middle classes--yes, even the bridge dubs in the country towns--are
beginning to realize that there is such a thing as unemployment. The 'My
dear, I don't believe in all this nonsense about unemployment. Why, only
last week we wanted a man to weed the garden, and we simply couldn't get
one. They don't want to work, that's all it is!' which you heard at every
decent tea-table five years ago, is growing perceptibly less frequent. '

George Orwell- The Road to Wigan Pier.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:21:26

You are all agreeing with each other and sometimes it is important to get another view point. It might not be your view but it is a view. Swearing,and telling you to get off a thread is all a bit pointless.

Just because I dont agree with you.....

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 18:24:41

NMW should be raised to a living wage to end poverty.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:24:50

Still, it doesnt get around the fact that I have a fair amount of money to spend and no one wants to do the work. It doesnt of course fit into your argument that there are no jobs and people are desperate to work.

I want some building work done. Its not weeding my garden!

And what has George Orwell got to do with anything!

Can someone please explain how despite calling two companies no one is interested in it! They havent even seen the work involved or quoted for it. They just have bothered to reply!

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 18:26:13

Perhaps they're fully booked and don't need your custom.

But feel free to take your lone example and apply it to the rest of the country.

WestieMamma Tue 02-Apr-13 18:26:31

I have never been unemployed, but why is that? Have I just been lucky? Why are some more lucky than others. My DH and DF voted Labour all their lives. Every election the red poster would go in the living room window. Both were not born in this country but both ended up doing 80 years employment. Were they lucky too...

Yes, they were very lucky.

My parents were the same. Then my dad got sick in his early 50s (early onset Parkinsons), went downhill fast and my mum had to give up work to care for him. They've been on benefits ever since. As someone has already said, everyone is just one illness away from being on benefits.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:28:18

Maybe they are fully booked. Would be professional to call back and say.

I have had this a number of times over the years we have been here. Maybe they have always been fully booked and not bothered to reply. Lucky them!

"I have never been unemployed, but why is that? Have I just been lucky?"

Luck definitely plays a part.

Well done you for working with companies who weren't hit by the recession.

Well done you for not having unexpected health problems that forced you to stop working.

Because of course, those things are all to your credit, and if other people just worked harder then they could avoid those things, right?

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:30:26

So, I seem to have had very lucky parents, I have also been lucky myself. I have been unlucky in getting someone to do some building work because they are always fully booked when I have asked for a quote.

Its a small example - of course it is but surely I am not lucky and everyone else isnt!

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 18:30:30

Maisie I have no idea why the builders you called haven't phoned you back. Maybe they're busy, maybe they don't do the kind of work you're offering. Phone some different firms and and hopefully they'll be more helpful.

However, what you are saying here may be your opinion, but you are mistaken. And I'm afraid, that your opinion does not trounce actual facts and figures.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 18:32:12

Oh god, Maisie, where to start with the claptrap you have come out with?

And actually there are more people claiming benefits under the Coalition because there are more people unemployed because they cut so many jobs.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 18:32:23

Raising taxes would end poverty.

So because you haven't had work or health related bad luck then no one has?? I've never given birth to a little girl, does that mean no one else has?

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 18:32:43

there are no jobs.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:32:45

And my company was hit by the recession. Who wasnt....

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:34:02

Whether you think I am mistaken or not - the changes are going through. Swearing and such like at me isnt going to change that.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 18:34:10

Here's a myth:
ALL 'hard-working tax-payers' resent benefit claimants and think they should be given the absolute bare minimum.

"And my company was hit by the recession. Who wasnt..."

There's being hit by the recession, then there's being hit by the recession. Or did you miss all the companies making redundancies and/or closing down entirely? How exactly does someone not become unemployed after being made redundant or their company goes bust?

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:35:26

Raising taxes for who? There will come a point where higher rate tax payers would leave the country. I would when it reaches a certain point....

glossyflower Tue 02-Apr-13 18:35:55

Just to point out number two ... no illegal immigrants aren't entitled to anything, but... I'm British myself but am a member of a minority community, and I know people who come over from my grandparents country, that is not part of the EU on fake EU country passports - with their own photo on them and everything!
Once guy had a job on this fake passport and even used it to get a hernia op on the NHS.
Ok they don't want it to claim benefits but to earn money and send it home.
I know many many young women coming over here marrying widowed or unmarried older men - one woman married a family friend who was elderly. Then after the amount of time she could get her own British citizenship divorced him and tried to take his house. Then she had the cheek to ask our elderly friend to marry her mother who was his age, so her mother had right to stay here.

I had no idea this even went on, but I have seen it for myself. And yes I did report what I saw to the home office.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 18:35:58

Maisie when did I swear at you?

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 18:36:33

Raising taxes would end poverty = myth

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:36:37

Of course I didnt miss the companies making redundancies. I was in one of them! But then some on this thread would say I have been lucky again!

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 18:36:49

Yes, and God help us all.

Well, not all. Just those who haven't worked hard enough to escape illness or disablity, or a bankrupt employer. hmm

crashdoll Tue 02-Apr-13 18:37:00

maisiejoe Do you have chronic health problems or a disability? Do any of your children? Did your once loving partner ever snap one day and become abusive or an alcohol misuser? These are all (some of the) factors leading to unemployment and poverty.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 18:37:36

I don't think you're mistaken, Maisie, I know you're wrong.

glossyflower Tue 02-Apr-13 18:37:37

BTW the money pot for benefit claimants is not that large to begin with in comparison to the rest of it.
We should make a start by cutting off MPs expenses allowance maybe..

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 18:38:36

Oh yes and they've just committed to billions for Trident - that would solve all the problems and mean no one's benefits had to be cut.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:38:39

Glossy - they will start on you in a minute. You are only a lone example, you are wrong, mistaken and such like!

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:40:22

I do have something that is classed as chronic. It hasnt stopped me working and I certainly wont be sharing it on a thread.

glossyflower Tue 02-Apr-13 18:40:52

maisie oh dear, what have I walked into! These kind of topics will always be heated...I am stepping away!

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 18:41:03

Is it stupidity? confused

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 18:41:22

You are all agreeing with each other and sometimes it is important to get another view point. It might not be your view but it is a view. Swearing,and telling you to get off a thread is all a bit pointless.

Just because I dont agree with you.....

Nothing to do with agreement or disagreement you are derailing a thread intentionally when it would be more appropriate to start your own that is called goading, its rude pointless and unfair on the posters who wish to contribute towards the thread and respond to the ops request.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:41:50

So, I am tbh. Let them all agree with themselves....

"Of course I didnt miss the companies making redundancies. I was in one of them!"

So you were made redundant but have never been unemployed? So either you jumped straight into another job, which is damn lucky, of you were unemployed.

crashdoll Tue 02-Apr-13 18:42:58

I wasn't asking for your personal medical history. I was telling you examples of what may contribute to unemployment. Not all chronic diseases mean you can't work but some can and no one asks for them or has any control over that.

*Or, not of.

float62 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:43:35

Well done Maisie for hanging in there, not that I agree with anything you've said though. FWIW I'll come round and build your extension but I'll just say I'm a woman in my 50s with no building experience but at least I'll be working and that's all that counts isn't it?

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:43:43

I have never been unemployed..... Lucky again it seems....

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 02-Apr-13 18:44:21

LOL at YouTheCat
OP YANBU
My money's on the two girls in Costa not existing.

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 18:45:15

YoutheCat I think I love you grin

glossy You actually make some goods points. What those people are doing is fraud, it's not that this country is willingly giving money to illegals, they are breaking the law. It doesn't mean that we are too lenient/generous, it means they are criminals who haven't yet been caught. Glad you reported them.

"We should make a start by cutting off MPs expenses allowance maybe."

Now that I like!

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 18:45:42

myth: working for benefits is slave labour

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 18:46:02

I'm laughing my head of at the 2 girls in Costa story. grin

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 18:46:32

Myth, workfare leads to employment.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:46:43

YoutheCat. How rude of you. How do you know what my chronic illness is? I have never on this thread called anyone stupid yet because someone disagrees with you that is your response.....

crashdoll Tue 02-Apr-13 18:47:10

maisie You clearly have no kn
owledge of social policy and the factors that contribute to poverty and unemployment. Your ignorance is making you look very silly.

Ah, fuck. sad

I forgot that my belief some people deserve benefits and a decent standard of living is totally undermined by the one contrary example. After all, in a population of over 60 million, it is only natural that two or three cases should give the government fine and sound reasons to stigmatize the tens of thousands who're out of work through no fault of their own.

Forgive me, rich folks, I'll go back to grubbing for worms and eating my widescreen TV.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 18:48:41

Not a myth working below the nmw in a job that would normally pay nmw would normally be a crime.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:49:08

The two girls in Costa is true, however it doesnt fit into your myth that some people do use benefits to support their lifestyle. I havent said all of them, I have quoted an example I overheard.

Whether you believe it or not is not really the issue. The changes are here. Whether you agree with them or not.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 18:49:17

I didn't call you stupid. I merely asked a question.

lemonmuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 18:49:41

Yes you are OP.

Have a look at the current thread in 'In the news' and then have another think.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:50:42

Well - someone has looked at the figures and decided they just dont add up and we cannot afford to continue like we are. And its not just me.....

Its now government policy.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 18:50:43

Maisie you still haven't told me when I swore at you - come on, an example please.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 18:51:48

So Maisie, how come the current government has borrowed more in 3 years than the last Labour government did in 3 terms in office? How would you explain that?

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:51:52

YoutheCat. You indicated that my illness was stupidity. And I am shocked that you are allowed to get away with that sort of comment on a thread.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 18:51:58

Masie you may have overheard it but you then believed it to be a fact and tried to use it to prove what ever nonsense you were drivelling about.

Just because two silly little girls had a conversation does not mean that what they were talking about is possible likely or achievable.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 18:52:00

there are really iffy things about migrants ATM on MN:

illegal immigrants are not criminals - they just don't have permission to work here. you can be deported but you don't go to prison for the crime of being an illegal immigrant.

FFS! some are fleeing torture. others just want a better life.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 18:52:53

It was most definitely posed as a question. It had a question mark and everything.

ZebraOwl Tue 02-Apr-13 18:53:18

Oh dear maisie Just because I dont agree with you doesnt make me wrong! I don't think anyone has a problem with you disagreeing with them, that's just grand. But being the voice of dissent doesn't make you right, either, just FYI.

This government was voted in by someone.

Um, actually, no it wasn't. Unless it was just my ballot paper that was missing the "Coalition Of Epic Fail" option. Also, just because you agree with what someone promises to do before the election (oh yes Lib Dems, I AM looking at you) that doesn't mean you support their policies once in government.

With regards to your peculiar belief that people not beating down your door to do your building work because they are Lazy Slackers, has it crossed your mind that they might, um, be working elsewhere? The building trade was hit really hard by the recession so building companies are in the unenviable position of scrabbling about to cover what jobs are available with fewer staff than is ideal. If you don't mind letting a gang of random completely unqualified people loose on your home to do the work I'm sure you could round up a workforce easily enough. And pay them a pittance because they are so desperate. Bonus.

I am genuinely struggling to understand a lot of what you are saying. Maybe that's because I am exhausted, but given linguistics is one of my pet interests, I suspect the struggle to comprehend is because you were in a bate & didn't preview your post. Sincere apologies if there is a LD issue here rather than a proofing one.

sockreturningpixie
What are these magical benefits meant to be, just out of interest? Are they allowed to count as the occupant of a "spare" bedroom, perhaps? wink

YouTheCat, FancyPuffin, textfan, SchroSawMargeryDaw & anyone else who understands the utter misery of doing DLA forms: I once made a friend laugh water out of her nose by explaining that the wretched things reduce my Pollyanna-ing to the level of "fully continent, why, yes I am! look at me & my continence! this is splendid! I shall celebrate my DOUBLE continence with a little dance!" I work very hard at not being ground down by my body's interesting take on functioning & the cripple!paperwork has the effect of a power-sander being taken to me. All the stuff I very carefully don't think about (I can't see my internal organs so I shall pretend they are all FINE) demanding to be written about in great detail. Having to tot up how many specialist's I've seen over the last 12 months is always a good game too. Especially if a clinic's been playing Pass The Patient so I end up having to put "X Clinic in Y Department on Z date under care of Prof A but saw Someone Else". Blegh.

I do very much think that there is a need to ensure disability benefits go to those who need them. I also think that there are better ways to ensure that than by tormenting us with Those Bloody Forms. As for the antics of ATOS (No Wheelchairs Allowed In The Medical Assessment Centre WATF?!), all the headdesking, all the time...

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 18:53:48

you the cat - labour spend most their time in office fuelling a boom then handed the bust to the tories.

so borrowing increased. easy

BenjaminButton172 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:53:52

Yes the benefit budget needs reducing but the government wont reduce pensioners benefits so they have decided to reduce everyone elses. The figures may add up then but the country will be in a terrible state.

IntheFrame Tue 02-Apr-13 18:53:56

Perhaps we should look at the welfare states of other countries as examples. There are said to be 3 types of welfare regime; Liberal, Conservative, Social

Liberal -US - people are encouraged to look after themselves. Those that can't go without or claim what they can and are stigmatised .

Conservative -France/Germany. Some universal taxes to support families or doctrine of the state. Works well in some circumstances.

Social -Sweden - universal benefits for all, paid for with high taxes. Seems to work well with high happiness rating for children and adults.

Guess where we are heading?

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 18:54:09

This thread is full of swear words. I am not picking on you Saskia and didnt address my comments to you in particular.

And now its been indicated that my illness (which is under control) is stupidty!

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 18:54:23

"Well - someone has looked at the figures and decided they just dont add up and we cannot afford to continue like we are. And its not just me.....

Its now government policy. "

It is government policy, but these are policies that are going to cost the country considerably more, so it's nothing to do with fiscal necessity. These policies are idealogical.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 18:54:33

Faster that has got to be the most sensible thing I have seen you post.

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 18:55:17

This is Mumsnet, maisie. Swearing isn't forbidden.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 18:56:46

sock - you cannot be reading the rest of them wink tis the only possible explanation... grin

"I have never been unemployed..... Lucky again it seems...."

Yes. Do you honestly think luck doesn't play it's part? Do you think that when so many companies are going bust, making redundancies etc that it's not at least part down to luck whether someone can walk straight from one job to another?

I got made redundant from one company, and managed to walk straight into another. All good so far. Then I got made redundant from that company (last in, first out rules applied). Was unemployed and almost out of savings when I found a new job, stuck on temp contract. Guess what? Made redundant then too. I was good enough to get the jobs, and persistent enough. But unlucky in that the companies I worked with were hit hard, and that with so many companies losing staff in one area there were more unemployed than there were jobs.

I know in one of the companies I worked for there were whole families made redundant. One poor bloke wasn't far off retirement when he lost his (specialised) job, and his children worked in the same company as unskilled NMW temp workers. Neither he nor his children were the sort of people likely to be snapped up in an employer's market.

I worked in a recruitment company briefly, before the economy really went down the pan, we were turning away highly qualified people with good amounts of experience and glowing references, even for NMW work, because the demand for work was far far greater than the amount of jobs. No amount of hard work was going to help those people, they just had to hope that they ended up in the right place at the right time, or that they knew the right people. Their qualifications etc weren't worth the paper they were written on.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 18:57:44

I meant the immigrant post

glossyflower Tue 02-Apr-13 18:58:08

*there are really iffy things about migrants ATM on MN:

illegal immigrants are not criminals - they just don't have permission to work here. you can be deported but you don't go to prison for the crime of being an illegal immigrant.

FFS! some are fleeing torture. others just want a better life.*

The ones fleeing torture are not illegal immigrants but refugees.
And anybody knowingly committing fraud whether an illegal immigrant, legal migrant or British IS a criminal.

RandallPinkFloyd Tue 02-Apr-13 18:58:43

Wow, 2 companies. A diverse cross sectional study then hmm

"Unless it was just my ballot paper that was missing the "Coalition Of Epic Fail" option."

grin

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 19:00:09

"Still, it doesnt get around the fact that I have a fair amount of money to spend and no one wants to do the work. It doesnt of course fit into your argument that there are no jobs and people are desperate to work.

I want some building work done. Its not weeding my garden"

LOLWUT??!!

So you are equating people, who are in employment, with the shysters that you worry about claiming dole? confused They have work. They are presumably doing other jobs. If they are self-employed, they won't be claiming dole to subsidise themselves on the weeks that they cba to take any work on! They just don't like the cut of your jib and don't want to do your extension or whatever. They aren't legally obliged to.

I understand it's frustrating when builders won't answer you calls, I've had it about three hundred times in the last 4 years. I don't think that they're workshy, though. They just don't want to take on that particular job and don't have to. Presumably they are getting enough work in to be able to pick and choose.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:00:45

No, but we do need to respect each other. If you dont agree with something that your children's teacher has done what will you do, swear at them? If you go into a shop and they wont do what you want them to do, do you rant and rave and swear.

I have a view, it might not be your view but where have I said that you are wrong and I am right. I have cited a view examples and its been indicated my illness is stupidity! I have also been accused of making them up because they dont fit your argument!

And if this country is that bad, if you really think its going down the drain and you arent getting what you feel you need. There is the rest of Europe to choose from.

Was that at me Randall? I was pointing out that sometimes it is down to luck whether you are unemployed or not. As maisie seems to believe it plays no part.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:01:59

So, my point is that there are jobs, you have had it too. Thankfully not just me!

cleoowen Tue 02-Apr-13 19:02:00

All I know is we cannot borrow as much as we would like on our mortgage as they will not take my wage into account as I am not self employed and I am not on a contract with a fixed wage. But apparently if I was claiming benefits long term (currently getting SMA) then that's fine!

Totally the wrong way round. Says alot about our society.

So, from my experience people on benefits can move house and get a mortgage when I can't because I want to go back to work.

WestieMamma Tue 02-Apr-13 19:02:59

Still, it doesnt get around the fact that I have a fair amount of money to spend and no one wants to do the work. It doesnt of course fit into your argument that there are no jobs and people are desperate to work.

I want some building work done. Its not weeding my garden!

And what has George Orwell got to do with anything!

Can someone please explain how despite calling two companies no one is interested in it! They havent even seen the work involved or quoted for it. They just have bothered to reply!

Eh? The people who haven't got back to you are working, not unemployed people who don't want to work. How on earth do you extrapolate from that, that there are jobs around for unemployed people desperate to work? confused Do you really want an unemployed accountant/bus driver/checkout operator/hairdresser/etc doing your extension rather than waiting for a qualified, skilled tradesman? confused

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 19:03:33

glossy - The ones fleeing torture are not illegal immigrants but refugees if the system was perfect, all people fleeing torture would be recognised as refugees, but it isn't, so they aren't.

the law is a blunt instrument.

what is this fraud that all illegal immigrants are committing?

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 19:03:50

I can't quite muster up enough pixie dust to respect someone who cannot be bothered to stop derailing a thread and trying to turn it into yet another benefit bashing thread and cannot be bothered to start her own.

JakeBullet Tue 02-Apr-13 19:04:20

I am on benefits.

I don't get free water
I don't get free utilities

People fought for disability benefits to support the most vulnerable in society. I claim them to support my son who is autistic.

I don't get anything "free", I worked and paid into the system for 30 years and will continue to work and pay in as soon as I am able to once more.

While in work I did not once begrudge supporting people who needed it...those on benefits. Likewise I don't expect anyone to begrudge me (or anyone else) the support we now need.

Sadly there is a lot of blaming going on here...you are in cloud cuckoo land if you honestly believe you can go through life with the bad stuff never happening to you. Hopefully it wont but it might.....and it is hard, believe me because I am living it.

ZebraOwl Tue 02-Apr-13 19:04:31

MurderOfGoths

Well, you never know... grin

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:04:43

Cleo People who are self-employed find it very hard to get mortgages, especially at the moment. Not sure about those in receipt of benefits, but as far as I know banks aren't exactly queuing up to lend money to those on £71 a week JSA.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:05:10

Have I been lucky. Well, I think I have, but surely not my whole working life (35 years plus!). I have had to move house to go where the jobs are, I would live abroad if I needed to. I know someone wouldnt. My DH moved to the UK to get a teaching position many many years ago because the UK were short of teachers.

FreshLeticia Tue 02-Apr-13 19:05:16

The ones who have flat screen TVs and Iphones are defrauding the benefits system because they are either earning cash in hand on the side or selling drugs. Plenty of those in rural Wales, where rich incomers want a man to cut the lawn and paint the house and there is a thriving community of weed growers in remote cottages. I know, I used to be married to one. He still doesn't work and I had to miss their early years to study for a first class degree so that I could get a good job and bring up our kids.
Real, ordinary, honest people struggle on benefits. I did when I was a single parent student.
The fucker has a TV the size of his house wall.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 19:05:34

So, from my experience people on benefits can move house and get a mortgage when I can't because I want to go back to work.

Yes, all those mortgage lenders are just queueing up to give mortgages to benefit claimants... <sarcastic>

maisie The point is there are very few jobs. And a lot of jobseekers.

Say there are 3 job positions available in a town. (nb. I am exagerrating obviously)

And there are 30 jobseekers in that town, let's pretend all 30 have similar qualifications/experience/motivation.

Can you see any way at all in which those 3 jobs could provide work for 30 people? And what do you think will be a deciding factor in which of those 30 candidates get the job? Would you say the other 27 didn't try hard enough or would you say luck played a part?

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 19:07:27

It's very easy to insist that there's nothing wrong with this country that a few harsh policies won't solve, when you're sitting in a comfortable position away from the consequences of these policies.

David Cameron does not care for poor or vulnerable people. You are not poor, or vulnerable. (I am speculating that you are not poor, or at least not on the breadline, to be able to feel frustrated at builders not returning your calls for work you want carried out, forgive me if I'm wrong)

The fact that you see nothing wrong with the measures the government are taking to 'restore the economy' is neither here nor there. The fact is, lives are being destroyed. Families are being driven to breaking point. The outlook is very bleak for some people. Those are the facts.

"from my experience people on benefits can move house and get a mortgage"

Except they can't. At all.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 19:07:51

Just because your ex is a drug dealer does not mean everyone with a iPhone is also.

The two things are not mutually exclusive

amidaiwish Tue 02-Apr-13 19:08:22

imo there are two big areas they need to look at but they don't seem to be:

WTC - why should people working FT need their wages topping up to a minimum level to live? These companies should be forced to pay a higher, agreed living wage. Why are we subsidising Tesco etc to pay their workers an insufficient amount to live?

Public sector pensions - goldplated, unbelievably generous vs private sector. The tax payer is funding these when we can't put anywhere close to enough in our own private sector pensions.

The bedroom tax - i get it a bit, social housing has to be more fluid, people moving in and out according to their needs/family size, as we all do in the private sector BUT it's hardly fair if there are not the smaller units available to move into!

RandallPinkFloyd Tue 02-Apr-13 19:10:22

Not at all MoG, I was mocking our maisie's terribly in depth study of her local economy!

JakeBullet Tue 02-Apr-13 19:10:36

Hate these benefit bashing threads.

I never expected to need benefits

I have a relative who needs kidney dialysis...no job now after a lifetime of employment. On top of that is wife has been diagnosed with a neurological condition which will kill her within 10 years. She is now out of work too....on medical grounds. Neither of them expected to need benefits and yet here they are....struggling. Their house will have to be sold and then they are at the mercy of the system which is going to judge them......for being on benefits.

float62 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:11:07

Can't we start having a poke at the unsustainable public sector pensions and all the other tax payer funded benefits they get now. Now there's a bunch of bloody scroungers <ducks head>.

FreshLeticia Tue 02-Apr-13 19:11:28

In-comers, as in rich people moving to the country. They do bring employment, but want it cheap, hence the cash in hand.
I was lucky enough to get a good job and keep it. I'm thankful for the benefit system because Otherwise I could not have gone back to Uni 16 years ago.

It makes me furious how he has managed to circumvent the benefits system for years and is now past retirement age so not subject to this any more. He gets his mortgage interest paid still and has a four bedroom house.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 19:11:45

Public sector pensions - goldplated, unbelievably generous vs private sector. The tax payer is funding these when we can't put anywhere close to enough in our own private sector pensions.
Why would you want to drag public sector pensions DOWN to a level that you think is inadequate? Why aspire to race to the bottom?
You do realise that many public sector workers earn very low salaries and will have nothing like a 'gold-plated' pension?

Ah, it seems I've started to skim read certain posts. Sorry Randall, thought it was out of character for you! grin

Think I should step away as I can feel my eyes glazing over with this thread confused

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:12:39

We have a large amount of supermarkets around here (IMHO far too many!).

However they dont get a large amount of applicants for roles so what they have done is offer child friendly, term time working hours which has attracted SAHM's looking for work. Of course its not brilliantly paid but it is a role and that 20% discount off food shopping is very attractive to some.

I used to work in a shop when I was at school, it is a role you dont take home with you and perhaps something I might go back to in the future.

FreshLeticia Tue 02-Apr-13 19:13:06

so Sock , how would you afford an Iphone on £53 per week?

amidaiwish Tue 02-Apr-13 19:15:24

Public sector pensions - goldplated, unbelievably generous vs private sector. The tax payer is funding these when we can't put anywhere close to enough in our own private sector pensions.
Why would you want to drag public sector pensions DOWN to a level that you think is inadequate? Why aspire to race to the bottom?
You do realise that many public sector workers earn very low salaries and will have nothing like a 'gold-plated' pension?

BECAUSE THE UK MONEY POT IS EMPTY AND WE CAN'T AFFORD THEM. They were designed when people died within a few years of retirement, if not in their last years at work. It is a myth that salaries are lower in the public sector, obviously there are low-high paid jobs, but on average salaries are not lower any more.

RandallPinkFloyd Tue 02-Apr-13 19:16:22

No, it's my fault. I can't be arsed posting anything remotely sensible in response to someone who has decided that large scale unemployment is a myth because 2 working people didn't need extra work.

Shame, it started off as a really great thread.

BeyondTheLimitsOfEgceptability Tue 02-Apr-13 19:17:28

In British law there isnt even any such thing as an illegal immigrant.
There are illegal entrants (ie on lorrys) and people with failed leave to remain

Dawndonna Tue 02-Apr-13 19:18:07

I was staying away from this, but: People on benefits cannot get a mortgage unless it is Disability Living Allowance, and the childs DLA will not count, only the adults.
Sorry Cleo

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:18:48

Without outing myself I do know something about public sector pensions (and No- I dont work for the government!). Two is right, they are not well paid in the grand scheme of things.

My retirement age has moved from 60 to 65. My state pension age has moved to 67 and going upwards. I have lost Child Benefit. I have a private pension, I would be daft not to. Have I ever had a time when I couldnt put food on the table - no. I know my personality and I wouldnt let that happen which might be why I have never been unemployed. I cannot be that lucky and walze my job to job!

On a lighter note - I was thinking of training to be a builder!! Only joking!

Dinosaurhunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:19:54

Fresh - agree with you I know many people how are committing fraud but its a way of life where I'm from almost normal. My dad claims benefits , he has mental health problems due to alcoholism but had never paid into the system himself. I feel sorry for him and do help because what he gets is not enough to live on . On another note my mil always insists she knows a family who had a wedding to attend so went to the social and they gave them money to buy wedding outfits fromarks and Spencer's ! Never fails to make me laugh - utter crap .

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 19:21:10

Quite. A huge number of public sector works earn very poor wages indeed. Far less than somebody on benefit. All this hand wring about benefit cuts. I'd like to see a few examples rather than everyone is going to starve because of these reforms.

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 19:21:57

That wanting a welfare reform means you want to send everyone up chimneys and to the workhouse.

That no one on benefits ever chooses it as a lifestyle choice.

That some women don't have babies to get a flat.

That some people have no intention of ever getting a job.*

That some on benefits are actually considerably better off than some in full time employment.*

That all the poor are decent, salt of the earth types looking out for each other and a the rich are all heartless bastards.

* Not a myth grin

Just a few to be getting on with wink

WorraLiberty Tue 02-Apr-13 19:22:31

Loving the '2 girls in Costa' story.

Costa is so modern.

That crap used to be '2 girls in McDonalds' or '2 girls on the bus'

My how times change grin

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 19:22:34

I know my personality and I wouldnt let that happen

Does your personality include the ability to see into the future?

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:22:57

Dinosaur - I have been flamed on this thread and feeling somewhat burnt and you are saying that where you are benefit fraud is the norm.

I sort of see what you are saying tbh- when the riots happened in Croydon etc the items stolen from shops werent food and essential clothing - they were IPhone's, designer trainers etc. The reason I know - I was caught up on that terrible day!

EasilyBored Tue 02-Apr-13 19:24:33

I love the idea that 'you wouldn't let that haven't as if my sheer force of will and jedi mind powers you could just make something out of nothing. By saying that what you are actually saying is that poor people let themselves be poor, and thus deserve it. Be honest, you're poor-ist.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:25:50

People have asked why I have been so lucky.

Well, something has happened to enable me to remain in employment. I just stated a reason for it! Now, maybe its something else but I have 12 years to go until retirement and do have a future mapped out so yes, perhaps I can see into the future.....

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:27:57

Well something has made me 'luckier' then others!

The fact is I have been in employment my whole working life. I have been made redudant once and had a role the day I left but I am going to admit that those were the days when it was easier to do.

Its not easy now...I recognise that.

RandallPinkFloyd Tue 02-Apr-13 19:29:53

Can I quietly add that no one on out of work benefits (unless severely disabled) is "earning" more than the equivalent of a full time wage.

That really is the biggest pile of DM peddled crap I've ever seen. Sadly it's also the most common.

float62 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:30:19

Why do public sector workers consider themselves low paid? In some areas they are the highest paid workforce. Yes, some are in low-paid jobs but so are the majority of private sector workers except the low paid private workers don't get all the fringe benefits - full sick pay, maternity pay, etc any more than the statutory minimum of anything if they're lucky. As for an occupational pension why do you think the govt had to bring legislation in for this for low paid private sector workers.

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:31:36

Skinnywatch spot on tbh i just dont want to pay for these people any more i have my owan family to feed and i dont want to support others who simply cant get down the sexual health and get a coil fitted

There are plenty who are simply feckless dont want to work and have no intention to there are people who have children to incress there welfare payments thank good that will no longer be the case

I dont really give a fig about getting flamed people who have no job shoud place ther energy into getting a job instead of being a moaning mini on mumsnet

To all those who think that i should support you family because you cant be arsed to work have a biscuit it will be the last one you will have on me

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:33:06

Skinny - you have said it much better than me. I have resorted to saying that I am training to be a builder!

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:35:18

Float is right I believe. Around London and the SE yes- public sector workers are not particualrly well paid. In the middle of Wales they are doing well pay wise and keep hold of their role until retirement.

Which is one of the methods I am using (but I am NOT public sector!)

JakeBullet Tue 02-Apr-13 19:35:42

Thing is many people never expect to need benefits.....me for a start. And for every feckless "I don't want to work" type, there will be people like me who HAVE worked and intend to again...we suffer alongside the "I don't want to work" people.

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 19:35:52

What I don't understand is this. How can it be in any way fair that somebody can collect £2,000 plus a month in benefits and yet another person earning £12,000 a year is paying tax.

elliejjtiny Tue 02-Apr-13 19:36:02

Disabled people get free taxis

No they don't. Some disabled people get a free bus pass, only valid at certain times for a bus that isn't wheelchair accessible.

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:36:50

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:37:34

Some people posting on this thread really should be careful what they wish for ...

elastamum Tue 02-Apr-13 19:37:45

I think it is easy for us to say it would never happen to us - but ask yourself honestly how many paychecks are your family away from poverty and homelessness? The answer might scare you.

Usually, every poverty story is a mix of death, divorce, disability or illness of one or more family members. It can happen far more easily than you think sad

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:38:06

I think what has happened is that there are people claiming benefits who are spoiling it for the geninue. There are parts of the country where for a number of generations no one has worked. It spoils it for the rest.

The rules around benefits have changed as well and consequently many who wouldnt have got anything many years ago are now able to claim.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 19:38:20

All those people that Skinny has mentioned are a tiny minority (something like 0.1%) or claimants.

It is DM peddled tosh.

I do hope your future takes you where you think it will. I wish mine had.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 19:38:28

Entitlement to free school meals and free prescriptions are only a benefit if you use them/ unfortunate enough to be ill.

I was told on here I was costing the taxpayer as entitled to the above. At the time I hadn't had a prescription in years and my dd is H.ed

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:38:44

"The polish and other assortment of immigrants who dont get welafre seem to find jobs just fine "

That's because they're living 6 to a room and working for far less than minimum wage.

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:39:10

Add message | Report | Message poster elliejjtiny Tue 02-Apr-13 19:36:02
Disabled people get free taxis

No they don't. Some disabled people get a free bus pass, only valid at certain times for a bus that isn't wheelchair accessible.

not true

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/taxicard/apply/

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:39:26
grovel Tue 02-Apr-13 19:40:04

Maybe we should get rid of the name "benefits". When my taxes support a neighbour with all sorts of (genuine) problems, I don't think I'm somehow giving her "benefits". I am contributing to a Fairness Fund.

Then we could have a debate about Fairness. Benefits (fairly or unfairly) have become discredited.

float62 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:40:09

Never said you were maisie but I thought I'd throw it in as we're all talking about burdens on the public purse and I gave an example. Anyway I thought I was building your extension, was it one floor or two?

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 19:40:12

That's because they're living 6 to a room and working for far less than minimum wage.

all of them??? it just sounds racist to me.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:40:48

"There are parts of the country where for a number of generations no one has worked."

No there aren't. When asked to prove this claim, the government couldn't find a single example.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:41:50

Elastamum. I used to worry more about money, as I am now older, I worry less. I guess that is natural. Our childrens generation should expect to be made redudant a number of times in their working life. It wasnt common 20 years ago certainly in the SE or if it did happen to do you got another role quickly.

Those taxis are subsidised, that doesn't mean free.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:43:11

Parts of Glasgow....

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:43:48

Binkyridesagain fair point wink

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:44:13

maisiejoe123 also parts of belfast

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 19:44:28

Well, congratulations for finding these mythical people that the government couldn't find.

Maybe they should give you a job? hmm

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:44:32

FasterStronger Err, no that's not racist, it's reality. Immigrants are being ripped off. They are promised jobs by employment agencies as freelance fruit pickers, or packers in warehouses for as little as £2.75 an hour. Accommodation is provided, and if they're lucky it means cramming as many people as possible into a three bedroomed house. if they're unlucky, it's a portacabin.

Then the myth is spread they have jobs because the local people are too lazy to work, when the truth is they can't afford to take those jobs and know they aren't legal. Classic divide and rule.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 19:44:44

Maisie

Yes they are an insignificant minority, and due to their culture, education, values have found themselves in this position, with little or no aspiration.
I certainly wouldn't swop with them, and am glad its not me. I certainly wouldn't want them to starve, I certainly don't find them as undeserving as the 150K benefit claimants who are spoiling it for everybody else.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 19:45:37

Guardian says (admittdly in 2010) that 19% of the country had families where no one worked. Likely to be higher now.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/04/one-fifth-uk-households-jobless

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:45:40

Maybe they need to give or make a few people on jobskeers take one wink

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 19:46:42

That's 19% without a job in 2010 not whole generations who have never worked.

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:46:42

morethanpotatoprints

I dont wish to swap with them either but nor do i wish to pay for them

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 19:46:54

Myth: families with generations of worklessness don't exist

"On the Wirral, ReachOut delivered by Involve NorthWest, uses a door knocking outreach method specifically designed to reach people with many generations of worklessness in their family. Armed with information and links to many different types of support, the way into working with the household comes from contact being made through a local, community based organisation, not affiliated with ‘the authorities’." www.esf-works.com/themes/families-and-households/direct-methods-of-outreach

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 19:47:50

How about a little empathy and compassion for people who are much less fortunate (usually through no fault of their own)?

Some people's attitudes make me utterly despair.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 19:48:13

saskia - you are talking about immigrants like they are 'all the same'

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:48:34

maisie Those are families with no one on employment, they aren't families in which multiple generations have never worked.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 19:51:06

"However they dont get a large amount of applicants for roles so what they have done is offer child friendly, term time working hours which has attracted SAHM's looking for work. Of course its not brilliantly paid but it is a role and that 20% discount off food shopping is very attractive to some."

Honestly, Maisie, where IS this Little England utopia that you live in? The more you tell me about the locale in which you live, the more I think you're chatting bollocks, mate.

ZebraOwl Tue 02-Apr-13 19:51:12

nomorefreemoney

The Taxicard service does not provide free taxis.

A very small minority of people can get a set number of reduced Taxi Fares via a not-terribly-reliable service. Even if you are allowed to double-swipe, longer journeys/those taken at busy times as fares are determined by the meter are still very expensive.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 19:51:13

Nomore

Well if you are working, its a good job you don't have a say in it or they would starve wouldn't they.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 19:51:18

Well said skinny just a shame you posted the myths rather than the facts

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:51:25

*FasterStronger No, I'm not. You know I'm not. Stop trying to pretend otherwise.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 19:51:32

bigoted fuckers alert

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:52:21

YouTheCatif you have additional children whilest knowing you are drawing welafre and have the check to ask the taxpayer to fund this lifestyle choice is very worng in my view

Do what you like but dont ask others to pay and of you do ask others to support your family dont get shitty when and if they want to give less they should count themslefs lucky they get anything at all

And if any one should be blinking protesting it should be the hard working familes who support these people

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 19:52:57

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 19:54:10

I'd like to know what families are entitled to on benefit. How much money. This seems to be shrouded in myth.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 19:54:29

"YouTheCatif you have additional children whilest knowing you are drawing welafre and have the check to ask the taxpayer to fund this lifestyle choice is very worng in my view

Do what you like but dont ask others to pay and of you do ask others to support your family dont get shitty when and if they want to give less they should count themslefs lucky they get anything at all

And if any one should be blinking protesting it should be the hard working familes who support these people"

Well I never knew Littlejohn had a Mumsnet account but this reads exactly like him. You just never know who's lurking...

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:55:14

morethanpotatoprints everyone has a choice about how many chikdren they can afford to have

I have two children thats what i can afford if i have more me and oh will have to deal we cant go cap in hand to his employer

It seems that people who are not working seem to want to be exempt from making hard choices that working people have to

WhoWhatWhereWhen Tue 02-Apr-13 19:55:37

Job seekers allowance payments are crippling the country, err JSA accounts for 2.5% of welfare budget, pensions 41%

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 19:55:46

I haven't had additional children and have no idea where you have got that from? confused

I had twins - wasn't an awful lot I could do about there being 2 of them at the same time.

I am a hard working person. I have a job (albeit a crap part time one) and my dp works full time.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 19:56:43

Nomorefreemoney is talking out of their bottom.

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 19:56:50

Not you personally YOU CAT those who are not working

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 19:56:50

Bum hoooooooles

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 19:57:40

Nomore

You have no say in who gets money and I have not heard anybody ask others to pay for it. i don't think they care where it comes from tbh.
I don't understand where this attitude of we don't want to pay comes from. Like anybody is going to ask you what you want to contribute to.
Think yourself very lucky for what you have and try a bit of compassion for those worse off than you.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 19:58:18

lefties always swear the most.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 19:58:46

Nomorefreemoney Would those be the hard working families who have to claim benefits because their wages are so low?

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 19:58:55

But I find your view abhorrent. What should happen to those people who cannot support themselves through illness/circumstances? Why should they have to rely on food banks? Why should they have to go on workfare instead of being offered the job at a living wage?

It is all so wrong.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 19:59:33

One trick ponies

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 20:00:41

morethanpotatoprints thats the problem those who have children whilest on welfare or wont look for work dont give a shit that someone has to work so they dont have to

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 20:02:19

morethan - do you want a job?

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:03:00

I work 24/7 365 and I don't get paid what the local authority would have to shell out

Dawndonna Tue 02-Apr-13 20:03:28
Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 20:03:41

YouTheCat as i find yours which is keep people trapped on welfare encourge them by default to relay on others to support there familes
With out making them responsible for there own actions .

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:04:42

You are talking about a tiny minority.

Most people have the kids they can afford and then circumstances force them to have to ask for help. What would you have them do? Put their kids up for adoption?

What if a woman's husband leaves her and then doesn't pay any maintenance? What should she do with 3 children and no way to get a job? What about someone who has a brain tumour that makes them have fits and means they cannot drive and makes holding down a job impossible and dangerous? Should they just be left to rot? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

This is not the middle ages. I'd like to think some of us have evolved enough to have some consideration for other people.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:05:19

YouTheCat nah no not this lot.

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 20:05:56

I did a calculation. And a single parent with four children is entitled to £579 a week benefit not including housing benefit. Is that right or is it a myth. That seems like a lot of money to me.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:06:29

I'm sorry but this "benefit scummers breed like rabbits whilst taking all the money" is a load of old shit. Plus, child benefit is being capped very soon so what's your point anyway? I'd actually like to see the figures on how much this will save because I genuinely don't believe that there are simply thousands of couples churning out baby after baby whilst on benefits. I don't.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 20:07:17

Myth viv I'm afraid

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 20:07:45

Well never mind you cat all change now thank god

I am off to be as i have work and at least tomorrow the majorty of my wage will not be going towards the shameless generation

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:07:48

That would sound more like a month's worth of money, Viviennemary. Definitely not a week.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 20:08:02

reference?

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 20:08:41

'On Welfare' dear god we really are going back in time.

Nomorefreemoney Tue 02-Apr-13 20:09:14

Viviennemary dont forgt the £500 grant they can get there sweaty hand on for baby stuff

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:10:06

£500 only for first child I think and aren't they stopping that anyway?

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:10:41

Nomorefreemoney, I hope your job is stable. I hope you never become disabled. I hope that your children never give you disabled grandchildren. Because with people with your attitude running the show, you'll all be fucked.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:11:23

Kiss my ring.

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 20:11:27

I would feel more sympathy if I knew how was the standard amount people had to live on. But this seems to vary between £53 a week and £579 a week. Let's bust the myth.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:12:01
usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 20:12:19

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

iwantanafternoonnap Tue 02-Apr-13 20:13:03

I do think our welfare needed some reform as there are people that do make it a lifestyle choice and I have met a fair few. I do know some girls that had children to get social housing, my cousin being one of them and now her daughter at 15 has done the same. I do know people who love the benefit system and will only work part-time hours as they earn more in benefits than they could working full-time and therefore have more time with their kids/free time than I do. I do know people who have a greater social life than me and live on benefits and don't appear to struggle financially at all.

However, I also know people that do struggle and will be worse off due to the cuts. I also know that I am very lucky to not be stuck in a system that is very hard to get off due to minimum wage being so low. I am also very lucky that I have not been unemployed for any serious length of time because I have been able to be flexible, work whatever hours I wanted to in the past and studied to get the job I do now.

Not everyone is that lucky, not everyone is that healthy, not everyone has support to get themselves in work or in a well paid job. Not everyone wants to be on benefits that is on benefits. Making people poorer is not going to help them get a job. It is not going to get them more qualifications to get a better job. It is not going to make them healthier, get rid of their disability or degenerative disease. It is going to make them sicker, increase their chance of depression, limit their access to culture/activities and this will have a knock on effect on their children and their children's outlook on life. None of this is good for society in the long run.

In regards to the bedroom tax I understand the thinking behind people not having social housing that is too large for their needs but it has been ill thought out. People should be offered smaller housing to show that it is their and then if they refuse tax should be put in place. My nan is in a 4 bed family house with front and back garden it is way too big for her needs and should be given to a family that needs it and will enjoy it like her family did. Yes she would be sad, I would be sad but I expect that after a while of living in a much more appropriate place for her needs she would be okay. Families should not have to be in B and B accommodation, crammed into flats or hostels when their are family homes being blocked by pensioners.

I hope to god I never have to be on benefits it's a shit place to be. I might be a bit worse off financially than some on benefits but I have a mortgage at least and therefore some stability for my son. This new system is still not going to stop those that abuse it.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:13:53

That's overly simplistic. People have different entitlements which match their individual circumstances. Some benefits cancel out others - money is deducted from IS for various things. So people can't tell you standard rates because they don't exist.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 20:14:01

I just used MSE calculator and got £26,888.68pa for 1 adult + 4 DCs ages 1-9.

no disabilities in household.

www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/benefits-check

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 20:14:58

That no one, not one single person, has any control over their own lives whatsoever. If they've done well, they're lucky, if they haven't- they're unlucky.

No one has any choice over who they shag and who they get pregnant by and when. None of us choose to smoke or eat well or marry decent men or wait to get pregnant until we are financially stable. It's all down to luck. Every single thing .

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:15:18

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:16:08

And Skinny is another one.

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:17:09

I despair, I really do. This thread went from great to fucking depressing in a few pages.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:17:12

Skinny don't be so ignorant. I've detailed my life situation and you amongst others refused to engage, preferring stereotypes and ooh look you're doing it again.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:17:28

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 20:17:37

I think there's some sockpuppeting going on.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:17:56

Surprised flatbread hasn't turned up and told me to get in the gutter again!

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:19:19

I think so too, Usual.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 20:20:17

usual Agreed - either that or astroturfing. Interested parties do have a history of it.

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 20:20:31

But it's a lot of money £579 a week. I did it on the benefits calculator. Then changed it to one child and that was less. £301 income support £62 child tax credit and £20 child benefit. That is less but it's still more than a lot of working people get after tax. I don't understand this at all.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:20:58

What is 'astroturfing'?

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:21:13

I don't know what HQ think. No response despite reports,

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:22:11

Income support is £62 a week before deductions (which pretty much always happen) so that's bollocks.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:22:26

Well Vivienne, when I was a single parent, with one disabled child, and one not disabled, I was getting nowhere near that amount and it wasn't that long ago.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 20:24:10

* YouTheCat * When an organisation or business pay people to pose as genuine members of forums to promote a view or product, or gauge opinion.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 20:24:11

Vivienne - does that figure include HB?

Dawndonna Tue 02-Apr-13 20:24:32

That no one, not one single person, has any control over their own lives whatsoever. If they've done well, they're lucky, if they haven't- they're unlucky.

No one has any choice over who they shag and who they get pregnant by and when. None of us choose to smoke or eat well or marry decent men or wait to get pregnant until we are financially stable. It's all down to luck. Every single thing
I am Dawndonna's daughter. I'm clever, I'm funny, I'm a sixteen year old wheelchair user. I can remember when my Dad could walk, that was three years ago. I can remember when my Mum could laugh. She'll be furious that I'm on here, but I saw her sniffing in the kitchen this afternoon. I looked at the threads that she's been on and you in particular Skinnywitch are one of the people that have been unbelievably dreadful.
My dad contracted an horrific and painful illness, that was bad luck. It was bad luck when he was prescribed the wrong medication too.
It was bad luck that I was born at 33 weeks, one of twins, I'm the one that ended up with the cerebral palsy as well as the Aspergers. But hey, to you, we're just a bunch of benefit scroungers. You will never see the clever, talented lecturers that my parents were. You will never indulge in our cultural background, you will never experience the unconditional love my mother provides. Please stop now, at your age you really should have grown out of bullying.

MDA Tue 02-Apr-13 20:25:27

Maisie its possible the builders haven't called you back because they just can't afford to put diesel in their vans this month in order to come out and quote you for the work. Because its getting that way for some small businesses at the moment.

crashdoll Tue 02-Apr-13 20:25:48

Oh come on guys, you're being unfair. I know I, for one, chose to be disabled! It's great to need help showering and getting dressed when you're 24. It's not demoralising at all to fill in 52 page forms to explain in great detail the exact help you need every step of the way from not being able to cook for yourself to needing someone's arm to hold when walking outside. I'm living the life of fucking riley, I get FREE MONEY from the government. I mean, my joints are eroding away and I live in chronic pain, sometimes can't wipe my own backside but guys, FREE MONEY!!!!!!!

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:25:59

It's not just crying in the kitchen, I started a thread to say as much. Doesn't sink in though.

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 20:26:16

penelope every parent can say what you are saying - disabled or not. If I decided I couldn't care for my children SS would have to step in, no? And it would cost thousands a week. But I care for them because they are MY children.

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 20:26:28

I made up a figure of £1000 a month for rent. So maybe it does. blush But it didn't say it did.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:26:52

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:26:54

crashdoll, you have made me grin but sad at the same time.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:26:59

Epic post, DawnDonna's dd. You are a credit.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 20:28:19

Vivienne - but £1000 per month is realistic for rent.

I think when posters recall how much they receive, they forget to add HB in.

Was going to walk away from this thread, but this is to DawnDonna's DD. Your mum must be very proud of you, you are very lucky to have each other. Now go give her a big hug, and tell her to forget about these idiots, as she has made an amazing contribution to the world by raising someone as thoughtful as you.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:29:07

It's not free money.
It costs your physical health, your sanity and self worth and self respect. It costs family, in my case.

You also have to poke up with bigots feeling they are somehow superior to you, can tell you what to spend your money on and how to live your life because they pay for you.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:29:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 20:29:45

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Dawndonna's DD, at times like this we need clapping smileys, you deserve a page full of them.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 20:30:28

The potential builders live three roads away. They could walk here. Are you seriously suggesting that a company of builders have no money to travel to sites! They wouldnt be a firm of builders if that was the case. They would have no customers!!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maybe they've heard about your attitude Maisie and have decided that they don't want to drop their standards no matter how desperate for work they might be.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:31:57

Isn't that a bit contradictory though, skinnybitch?

I also live on disability/Carer benefits yet you don't want to pay for me.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 20:32:15

maisie - you are right. construction has been badly hit by the recession. so why no interest in the work?

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:32:18

They could walk there and lug the bricks and cement and tools on their backs! By God if they wanted the work that badly they would tear and toil to have the chance to build Maisie's extension!

Honestly, I just think they don't want to work for you. Two companies have ignored you? Take the hint.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 20:33:41

I agree Skinny. Skinny isnt talking about the genuinely disabled, she is talking about the people who give no thoughts to their actions when they get together with someone, with no thoughts of birth control, who then do the same thing again and again. Who have messed around at school and spolit it for others. Who dont have any qualifications. And if Vivienne's figures are true - blimey £600 for 4 children excluding child benefit....

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:33:52

Maisie, nobody cares about your builders. Go and start another thread if it is so important to you.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:33:54

"maisie - you are right. construction has been badly hit by the recession. so why no interest in the work?"

Hmmmm, I wonder... hmm

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 20:34:40

DawnDonnas dd.

Bless you, and please believe me the bullies and none sympathisers are few and far between thank God.
Your family have been through a lot, much that would make anybody with an ounce of humanity sympathise. thanks to you.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:34:40

Oh dear. Serious tosserdom.

Theicingontop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:35:00

I don't understand tax payers who resent paying into the benefit system, who don't seem to have the slightest problem with their beloved government spending millions of pounds of their money on fucking mansions and inflated expenses. But of course, they're fixing the economy, so it's ok.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 20:35:38

no one wanting to even discuss a building project in a recession is odd. & relevant to a discussion on benefits.

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 20:36:27

I've just done the calculator thing for a single mother with four kids and yes, it's coming out at that too Maisie.

But I'm not surprised.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:36:32

No thoughts to their actions when they get together with someone? So you're talking about single mums here? Let's just clarify.

Nice to know that women blame women for single mums bludgeoning the state with their over-used uteruses, letting the men off the hook. I am embarrssed for you, Maisie.

For anyone who is interested, the latest episode of the Now show talks about this kind of shit.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:37:34

DawnDonna and her lovely dd: you have the nice people in the world behind you. Ignore the nasty little bullies.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 20:38:25

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 20:39:49

I think you are reading what you want to marmalade.
Is it really bizarre to suggest people try to ^ plan^ pregnancy with a partner they know well, perhaps are even * shock, horror* married to? And are financially stable?

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:40:37

So Skinny, what happens when that rock solid husband buggers off with a new woman and doesn't pay for his kids?

FancyPuffin Tue 02-Apr-13 20:41:35

I wasn't going to post again as i suspect that there is trolling and sick-puppeting going on and quite frankly I'm not talking about my personal circumstances for some sweaty faced weirdos.

Dawndonnas dd massive handclap from me you are a truly wonderful girl and I wish you and your family the very best thanks

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 20:41:47

""maisie - you are right. construction has been badly hit by the recession. so why no interest in the work?"

Hmmmm, I wonder... hmm"

I know, but I couldn't possibly say.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:41:49

I did all of that. Didn't make the slightest difference. Still had to give up work, lost everything...

But that fact won't be engaged with.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:43:25

My mum was married to my father yet was still left a single parent. What's your point? That marriage will stop single parents?

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 20:43:30

Well, some women build careers and work experience and skills before and during motherhood so that they are able to self support.

For those that haven't, then the state should step in. But not at a level that is higher than the national average.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Tue 02-Apr-13 20:43:39

PeneloPeePitstop They can't engage with it, it might mean admitting they are making stuff up.

limitedperiodonly Tue 02-Apr-13 20:43:48

I gave up at about 18:28. Does anyone want to fill me in?

In case that wording troubles anyone, I'm not being offensive. Mind you, I could be trying to earn a bit of extra cash.

Actually, don't bother.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 20:44:21

The biggest cause of divorce is marriage grin

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:45:40

And what about those who have escaped domestic violence?

You have no real answers to any questions and you are merely here to goad and upset.

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 20:45:41

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Molehillmountain Tue 02-Apr-13 20:46:46

Good god! There seems to be a new breed around here-the luck deniers. How can anyone who has a nice house to live in, a good job, food on the table and some spare be so arrogant as to refuse to acknowledge the input of luck to their circumstances? Luck can be short term, long term, one off and cumulative. Genetics, nurture, anti nurture (ie doing things because of the poor example set) being in the right group, the right school, coming into contact with one or many inspiring people. Having sufficiently stable physical or mental health to take advantage of all those moments or periods of luck. No one on here is denying the virtues or necessity of hard work in achieving "success". It's just astounding that some people can't see how soul destroying it must be to be hard working and still be treated like a feckless scrounger. I despair of some people's inability to think "there but for worse luck go I" because they're so damn sure that they're doing well simply because they're a cut above.

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 20:47:46

Well, some women build careers and work experience and skills before and during motherhood so that they are able to self support. For those that haven't, then the state should step in. But not at a level that is higher than the national average.

this sounds reasonable.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 20:48:22

Skinny

I do not know anybody who has any benefit or mix of benefits having more than the national average.
Now if you are including the cost of housing in this, it is hardly the claimants fault that dear Maggie privatised all the social housing and now landlords charge a huge amount. Would you see them homeless?

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 20:50:17

Of course she would. Don't forget also flatbread who believes the state shouldn't be responsible for paying for the care of the disabled, so they should be in the gutter.

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 20:50:45

I think the £600 per week excluding HB and CB is more than the national average.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 20:54:47

Skinny

I don't know anybody who gets this amount, or anywhere near it.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 20:55:05

Skinny why don't you do something useful go read the dwp website pay attention to the rates and money you already have coming in section.

If your going to bleat about something and use it to goad people like you have been consistently for the last few days actually learn something about how it works.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 20:55:13

Nope, me neither.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 20:56:52

Some of the people on this thread are just talking nonsense. I have said I need to have some building work done in the garden and two local companies have not bothered to reply. To make sure that their argument stands up that there are NO jobs some on this thread say it because they dont want to work for me. They dont even know me!! I have never called them before!

And its South Bucks for anyone who thinks this place doesnt exist. Just within the M25 near Heathrow.

BenjaminButton172 Tue 02-Apr-13 20:57:02

For those ignorant people dont you understand that you get child benefit, child tax credit, housing benefit, council tax benefit when you are WORKING. These are not unemployment benefits.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 20:57:13

Skinnywitch
dawndonnasdaughter come one now, this is not personal. I'll say this - I would GLADLY have a higher tax bill to provide for the disabled and vulnerable. This is NOT about those people, it never was or will be.It is those people for whom the welfare state should be.

Well this is your problem, skinny. You want to decide who is worthy and who is not. You would like to penalise the children of the 'undeserving' poor from what I've read of your posts. You would like to punish those children for being born to 'undeserving' (in your opinion) parents. Well, fortunately the Welfare State makes no such distinction. Your posts (and those of one or two other posters) are really unpleasant and goady if I may say so.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:57:29

"Well, some women build careers and work experience and skills before and during motherhood so that they are able to self support"

In your little world, everything runs tickety-boo, I should imagine. Everyone is able to go to university, everyone has a pick of the best jobs, everyone can afford childcare...

Well some of us live in the real world. My mum is 56 and works 35 hours a week still, so she is no shirker. But when my own father left, she was on her own. There was no state subsidised child care in 1980. She got her rent paid for her and some child benefit. Bills were paid for by her and my dad was one of the better absent fathers in that he helped her out financially still. We didn't have spare cash.

I'm not sure what it is you think that single-parent mothers get that is so enviable but take it from someone who lived it. It is not a nice lifestyle.

Anyway, since you're goading and being a bit of a twat, I doubt you care.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 20:58:48

maisie, no-one cares. Your builders have nothing to do with the recession, benefits, joblessness.

Builders have been unreliable since the dawn of time. Get over it, get on ratedpeople.com and STFU.

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 20:59:59

Has anyone mentioned the recent Joseph row tree foundation. Report which should have finally for once and all laid to rest the myth of families with generations of worklessness (and yes they looked at Glasgow).

I was fortunate enough to hear some early research from it presented at a conference and I am very disappointed it didn't get the press coverage it richly deserved.

redlac Tue 02-Apr-13 21:00:20

Maisie you do realise that your average person looking for a job won't have the skills to rock up and offer to put up your extension? The builders you have contacted are probably very good and for that reason will already have their diarys filled for the next couple of months or so

It's not as if your local authority staff who have been laid off can follow plans and build extensions with NO experience

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 21:02:59

Someone on this thread have stated there are no jobs. I come on saying I have some work. I cannot get anyone to do it. I have tried to pick local people. I thought they would have committment to the job - they clearly dont.

And this has everything to do with the recession and joblessness, these could be the people throwing in the towel and then claiming benefits because they say there is no work!

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 21:03:39

Rhonda - I linked upthread to some contradictory research in the Wirral.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 21:03:46

Oh and your opinions make you sound like a nasty vile pisspoor excuse for a human being who has spent hours practically following another poster around making vile offensive comments.

That poster used to be a higher rate tax payer until circumstances beyond her control caused her life to change shockingly.

Your a bully who needs to grow up.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

elliejjtiny Tue 02-Apr-13 21:05:21

Great post dawndonna's DD. You show a level of maturity that is beyond your years and some of the posters on this thread could learn a lot from you. I have a 4 year old son who is physically disabled and posts like yours give me hope that he will learn to defend himself against the idiots.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 21:05:31

Precisely, so why not start a thread about it, Maisie, and then people might have some idea of what to advise.

It really is not relevant to this thread.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 21:05:56

Maisie, there are no jobs on the job board to be filled.

You are contacting people already in employment to do a job which they are turning down, presumably because they have enough work already.

Do you understand the difference?

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 21:06:24

Would you like my unemployed 56 year old neighbour to come and build your extension?

I mean shes only been looking for a job for months after getting made redundant. I'm sure she can slap a few bricks together.

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 21:06:57

Who said it was an extension. I need two shed's/summerhouse taken down and one put in its place as replacement. Stop making excuses for them not even bothering to reply!

You cannot say there are no jobs and 100's applying for one role and when I come on saying I have some work and my two local companies cannot even be bothered to reply to start to make excuses as to why they havent contacted me!

"genuinely disabled"

I hate seeing people say that, define the meaning of genuinely disabled when it comes to benefits please?

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 21:08:21

Maisie, I think quite a few people have already pointed this out to you, but here it is again in simple terms:
1. You need some building work done and have contacted two building firms.
2. There are lots of unemployed people who cannot find work.
3. These two facts are not connected in any way. The unemployed people in section 2 probably do not have the necessary skills and qualifications to build your extension and - unless you advertised in the national press, of course - are probably quite unaware that you can provide work for someone.

Now can you please stop going on about your extension?

FasterStronger Tue 02-Apr-13 21:08:40

just because we cannot control all of life, it does not mean we shouldn't take responsibility for the things we can.

listening to some posters, its like we are rubber ducks bobbing around on the ocean - completely random, with no personal autonomy.

this obviously does not apply 100% to everything in life, but I find "The more I practice, the luckier I get"

[buggers off for dinner before being told this does not apply is absolutely every situation ever in the history of humans, like I hadn't previously stated that]]

usualsuspect Tue 02-Apr-13 21:08:43

They already have a job, What is wrong with you?

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 21:08:47

OMG Maisie and the builders, it would be grin if it wasn't so pathetic.

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 21:09:18

Maisie, a summerhouse!? Rich bastard.

redlac Tue 02-Apr-13 21:09:42

YOu have some work but the builders you have contacted probably have their books full HOWEVER they are not in a position to take on more staff JUST for your one job

Even your average laid off builder who have previously worked for firms do NOT have the funds to set up their own building company - van, insurance, setting up accounts, heck even getting a bank loan to get set up is impossible

maisiejoe123 Tue 02-Apr-13 21:09:43

Ah, so there are jobs, it is economic sense to expand your company when you are literally not bothering to return calls because you are too busy!

We either have jobs or we dont....

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 21:09:43

Sorry. X post with many grin

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 21:09:55

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 21:10:21

Maisie, that isn't even building work. You need a carpenter for a purpose built one or a landscape gardener.

So basically, you've asked for quotes from the wrong people.

DialsMavis Tue 02-Apr-13 21:10:45

We are not entitled to any TCs even without my part time work and DPs overtime, yet would be entitled to HB... Private rents are utterly ridiculous. My house is cold and dated (no double glazing, 25+ year old kitchen, boiler, bathroom etc) yet our rent is £1500 per month.

We can't feed ourselves properly for at least a week every month and I regularly walk a 5 mile round trip to school and back twice a day when I can't afford the bus. We are far from feckless... I am
a graduate and DP has a job in an industry that people are clamouring to get into. I don't resent contributing to help people even more in the shit than us though, obviously, as I am not a cunt.

I'm getting an extension built shortly, I'll watch how they do it and then I'll pop around to yours maisie, I'm not doing anything at the moment and I'm cheap, I can only do short working weeks though as I'm on benefits and I wouldn't want to lose my carers allowance.

redlac Tue 02-Apr-13 21:11:13

Fuck sake so it's a labourer you want NOT builders? I suggest your local handyman cos no builder is going to waste time doing that

skinnywitch Tue 02-Apr-13 21:12:32

maisie are you planning to rent out your summerhouse and become a bastard tory LL?

BeyondTheLimitsOfEgceptability Tue 02-Apr-13 21:13:17

Good point schro
I'd love to see a definition of "genuinely disabled"

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 21:13:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Beyond Who's betting the definition will be "ehh genuinely disabled" hmm

Really drives me nuts on all of these threads.

Maisie You really aren't getting this, are you? They already have a job! They don't need to take work they don't want.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 21:18:51

Definition of 'genuinely disabled': Any state or condition determined as 'real' by skinnywitch, flatbread or fasterstronger (assuming they aren't one and the same person...)

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 21:19:51

Marmalade

I'm a lady and don't like that kind of language but grin grin grin

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 21:20:17

Definitely not neurological conditions which cause behavioural problems.

That's just too many E numbers, a bit of naughtiness and insomnia.

I would say they are one and the same, except I am sure I have seen them all post before...

But yes, your definition sounds right.

YY Penelo That'll be all the fruit shoots that they sold their goats to buy, right? grin

Maisie you will never be out of a job, ATOS would love you.

MarmaladeTwatkins Tue 02-Apr-13 21:24:30

<awaits deletion. Again>

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 21:24:40

At least one of them has only posted on this thread and another has only posted similar hateful crap over the last week.

redlac Tue 02-Apr-13 21:26:00

Actually Maisie once your big shed has been erected my painter and decorator DH will come down and paint it for you - he is employed full time despite is raging psoratic arthritis (which means he has to get up 2 hours before he satrts work to get his joints moving) and the last time he was paid off he didn't actually get any dole money because apparently he had been paying the wrong kind of self employed insurance stamp so we got fuck all.

Maybe I haven't seen them then...

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 21:27:50

Schro and Penelo.

I had heard that some people had to sell their goats because they couldn't afford to feed them as well as the cuts and bedroom tax. At least the gov can't make you pay tax on the goat now. smile. So many goats need good homes now, these cuts are affecting livestock too. grin

JulieBunnyMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 02-Apr-13 21:28:17

Hi. Can we just remind you of our talk guidelines? Thanks.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 21:28:25

I did notice them agreeing with each other rather too ardently on the Bedroom Tax thread.

Molehillmountain Tue 02-Apr-13 21:29:01

Maisie, amongst the things I object to in your many posts is the fact that you define as a "need" your desire to knock down a shed and a summerhouse and build a new one. This is just another example of how little you understand or care about the lives of many to whom you would deby benefits. By all means have lots of stuff, no one denies that you're working hard. But your posts increasingly make you sound like a modern day Marie Antoinette.

Could they not have sold the tellys to feed the goats? Selfish bastards.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 02-Apr-13 21:29:28

If you put your goat in your spare room then you can say your spare room is occupied. No?

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 21:29:42

I heard there was going to be a tax on goatsheds.

Molehillmountain Tue 02-Apr-13 21:30:03

Thanks mnhq-point taken.

NippyDrips Tue 02-Apr-13 21:30:12

I had my children with my husband while we both worked. I was training and my husband was the majority earner. Then he attacked me and left me needing hospital treatment.

I still work full time but also claim housing benefit, council tax benefit, child benefit, child tax credits & working tax credit. Legitimately.

Where am I on the scale of worthy-ness? Please can I have some of your salary to support me?

My goat is a hard working goat, I have her hooked up to a tread mill and she powers the 50" plasma, she's allowed an hour off each day for milking.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 02-Apr-13 21:30:52

Right so having bigots stalk you round the boards whilst HQ ignore your reports, you're supposed to just smile beatifically?

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 21:31:35

Indeed, Penelope.

Some reports seem to get taken more seriously than others.

crashdoll Tue 02-Apr-13 21:33:53

My goat is disabled, like me. He has an arthritic kneee. I may have to claim GLA (goats living allowance) for him. Sad times have fallen upon us.

WestieMamma Tue 02-Apr-13 21:34:34

Some of the people on this thread are just talking nonsense. I have said I need to have some building work done in the garden and two local companies have not bothered to reply. To make sure that their argument stands up that there are NO jobs some on this thread say it because they dont want to work for me. They dont even know me!! I have never called them before!

And its South Bucks for anyone who thinks this place doesnt exist. Just within the M25 near Heathrow.

According to the most recent figures from the Office of National Statistics there are currently 6017 job seekers in your neck of the woods and 2504 available jobs (including part-time).

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 21:35:12

twofingers

didn't see that, I'm so slow. You made me grin and lol.
The goat posts are what keep many people going on these never ending benefit bashing threads.

Funny thing is, when they all first started I wasn't on welfare but TC and dh WTC since then I am now on welfare according to gov. I think there's alot of people who are still in denial they are on welfare benefits.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Tue 02-Apr-13 21:35:19

Maise.
Margo Ledbetter

Have they ever been seen in the same room?

Crash Does that mean you'll get an extra car for your goat? Maybe you should buy some more goats, you're onto something there!

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 21:37:07

That's a good point, TondelayoSchwarzkopf.

Same can be said for me and Batman. wink

crashdoll Tue 02-Apr-13 21:38:08

I am hoping my goat will be eligible for the HR mobility but he does have 3 other legs and now GiG is being introduced, I bet he won't be eligible for anything. sad

mx5hairdresser Tue 02-Apr-13 21:38:40

re. the bedroom tax
how the fuck are people supposed to downsize when the tory scum (I.E. thatcher) sold off all the council houses and stopped new ones being built

You could always break the legs... He can't talk, they don't need to know!

mx5 They will have to move to private which means their HB claims will likely go up and they would have to top up as well.

Not going to work, is it?

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 21:41:56

Faster would you mind Reposting your link please, there's too much going on on the thread, or better pming me it?

Thanks.

PdHeatonsingingfafafa Tue 02-Apr-13 21:43:28

There should be a goat in the Bounty pack. The scrounging single mums could go out to work if they had a nanny.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 21:44:33
morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 21:47:53

I think you only get a goat if you are entitled to free school meals, free prescriptions and some other benefits. I don't think everyone is entitled.
I didn't get one in my bounty pack. But my youngest is 9 now, so think it may be before goats.

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 21:56:13

Thanks sock off to look.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 21:57:00

More than.

Stop telling lies ten years ago you got a goldfish in your bounty pack and you know it.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 21:57:55

Sock

The link talks about outreach to generations of unemployed but shows a dear old lady in what looks like a niace area of town grin
So where are all these families then?
I live near to this area and this part of the NW does have areas with higher unemployment, but the people with multi generations of unemployed are in small pockets, i.e in most areas a few houses. At the most in our town there is an estate with one street of this type of family.
Anybody who is still insisting there are significant numbers need to do their homework.

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:00:05

Sorry that just SAYS households with many generations of worklessness - there is no details of empirical research, how they are defining worklessness, how many households they are speaking of, etc...

It's a bit like me saying I'm going to go knock on doors of fat people, it's just about as valid.

M
Anyone interested in some actual validated proper research taken seriously by academics and peer reviewed etc, carried out by a recognised body, may want to read this...

www.jrf.org.uk/publications/cultures-of-worklessness

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:01:18

FOr the record, I think the community animator approach (which is what this is) is a good one, but this advertising for a project is NOT a piece of robust empirical research.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 22:01:59

Sock cross post there.

By the way, only top part of last post to you.
My dd is 9 though not 10. I think we were between goldfish and goat. Oh I know we just got the free photo shoot. The single parents got a monkey to remind them of the feckless father

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:02:37

But of course you need to be able to understand about the validity of sources to get that hmm

ouryve Tue 02-Apr-13 22:03:18

skinnywitch - many people have the perfect planned family with seemingly the perfect partner in the perfect financial circumstances.

Then one of them loses their job.
Or one of them becomes seriously ill, or disabled.
Or one of the planned children is ill or disabled and needs full time care.
Or Mr perfect turns into Mr Fists and Mrs Perfect has to leave in a hurry with just the kids and the clothes on their backs
Or Mr Perfect runs off with Mrs (or Mr) Betterthanperfect.
Or myriad other potentially horrendous scenarios.

Planning is all well and good, but life happens.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 22:05:42

rondajean.

I had forgotten about jrf and used to read many reports from here during uni days. Many thanks, I have kept this. thanks

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:07:27

Glad to be of use to someone more than grin

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:09:11

Itv news now for zero hours contracts btw.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 02-Apr-13 22:14:49

The link was not mine I just reposted the link so Rhonda could read and see what she thought of another posters bollocks evidence.

Because Rhonda has much more energy than I do at the moment and is quite likely to pick up on all the things I would and she does not swear as much as me

ouryve Tue 02-Apr-13 22:16:32

Maisie, you need one of these and one of these. Your outbuildings will be down in no time.

Someone else will have to advise on the fingernail repair. grin

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:18:16

I swear a lot in real life blush

I also keep missing things on here because I go off to get evidence to debunk one set of bollocks and another lot is here by the time I get back.

Plus, perkily, I have to WORK. Which an awful lot of the bb brigade don't seem to have had to do today hmm

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:18:57

PEskily, peskily, work was not perky today.

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:24:09

FUCK ME. Quietly buried in the news today, the queens got an extra £5million To cover the running costs of her household.

How many spare rooms has she got???

Still, she is a pensioner I suppose...

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 22:27:57

Maisie

Do you have a dh/ dp or muscles. I am only 4ft 10.5 (.5) being very important and I love smashing stuff to bits and building walls. Me and dh quite often spend a few weeks knocking our house to bits.

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 22:31:54

And the Mail uses the death of six children to make a right wing political point.

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/319193925019643904/photo/1

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 22:33:03

When they caught Harold Shipman i dont recall any headlines saying..

Product of Middle Class UK!

rhondajean Tue 02-Apr-13 22:33:50

Product of educating people to use lethal drugs perhaps?

ParsingFancy Tue 02-Apr-13 22:36:16

Well it's not the first. Xenia was banging away linking the Philpotts and benefit reform right here on MN last week.

Sometimes what people say is so bizarre and twisted you can't begin to imagine how to engage with them.

IntheFrame Tue 02-Apr-13 22:40:25

I think maisiejoe123 might have a point in that getting work done down south is a mission.

No one can do any sort of job in my town without adding on a big whack because it's only the rich that can afford anything. I can go down the road to the (poorer) south coast and get it done for half the price. No one can afford to live and have a regular job (shop work, office admin etc) anywhere in my local area without help.
Basically the rich have artificially inflated the price of labour locally and so have to pay to get people in from further afield. Which is fine as long as your labour have the money/time to get to work.

grovel Tue 02-Apr-13 22:48:54

Darkesteyes, I think you've chosen a poor example of DM fascism. This man is shit. This man abuses/tries to kill women and he takes the piss out of the system. This man benefits a bad name which is so sad. But not as sad as the death of the children.

grovel Tue 02-Apr-13 22:49:44

"gives benefits"

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 22:53:21

i agree grovel. But the Mail are using the deaths of six children to make a political point and according to my Twitter feed many people agree.

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 22:56:54

Rise in companies using zero hour contracts.

www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/apr/02/rise-staff-zero-hour-contracts

Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 22:58:12
Darkesteyes Tue 02-Apr-13 23:00:40

This man benefits a bad name which is so sad. But not as sad as the death of the children

Yet no one ever says/said that Harold Shipman gave the middle class a bad name!!!! <scratches head>

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 23:05:58

Why are people not up in arms at the Queen getting an extra £5 million. Isn't that more than 1% rise.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 23:12:49

I think many people think the Queen has enough already. They can't believe the gall tbh.
In time of austerity, when people stand to lose a significant amount of money and have a spare bedroom taxed, once again a stupid amount of millions is added unnecessarily imo.

morethanpotatoprints Tue 02-Apr-13 23:14:06

Vivienne

Apologies misread your post smile

YouTheCat Tue 02-Apr-13 23:14:27

I'm up in arms about it.

grovel Tue 02-Apr-13 23:14:40

She had a great year. Performance-related pay.

Viviennemary Tue 02-Apr-13 23:34:26

What about this cap on housing benefit. Doesn't the Queen count. Can we all have £5m a year pay rise. My expenses have gone up too this year.

flurp Tue 02-Apr-13 23:35:21

Not everyone living in social housing is on benefits.
Not everyone on benefits is a scrounger or a benefit cheat!

Isabeller Wed 03-Apr-13 00:29:12

Firstly maisie, are you near Croydon (you said you were involved in the riots, or did you say you were 'up north' - long thread & tired eyes)? I would be interested in your building work if you still need someone. I need more work and know other people who do too.

Secondly since there are some very distressed posters upset about paying for other people's benefits can anyone reassure them by suggesting what they could pay for instead. My taxes can go to benefits, yours can go to UK citizens who lose money in Cyprus bank accounts, export guarantees, enterprise zones and child protection social workers. UK taxpayers do loads of stuff with the intention of making our country a better place to live, there must be some of it you agree with.

lemonmuffin Wed 03-Apr-13 18:00:17

Oh Penelopee, what fabulously articulate points you make.

I am in awe and barely know how to answer them. Not.

YouTheCat Wed 03-Apr-13 18:03:33

confused

Dawndonna Wed 03-Apr-13 18:04:52

Sorry Lemonmuffin I missed your erudite and articulate post, perhaps you'd point me in the right direction.

lemonmuffin Wed 03-Apr-13 20:16:01

RTFT dawn.

NicholasTeakozy Wed 03-Apr-13 21:26:06

I agree with Saskia, there are some on MN who appear to be astroturfers. They only post on threads like this to put the neoliberal view. You don't see them on normal non political threads.

PeneloPeePitstop Wed 03-Apr-13 21:32:20

Do you have a definition for astroturfer? New one on me...

TKKW Wed 03-Apr-13 21:34:50

People who "sign on" (job seekers) are not necessarily getting money for nothing. Some people just get pension credits and aren't able to get weekly money as their partners/ spouses work 16 hr+ per week.

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 03-Apr-13 21:38:21

Ahem.

Theicingontop Wed 03-Apr-13 22:04:18

"Foreigners come over here pretending they want work, then just sit on their arses and watch the dole come in"

Genuine comment from BIL.

A quick google confirms that he's deluded, and in actual fact for a migrant worker to be eligible to claim Jobseeker's Allowance, they need to prove they've been in continuous employment for 52 weeks!

YouTheCat Wed 03-Apr-13 22:08:37

Lemon, had you RTFT you would know that Dawn has commented aplenty on this thread and had already RTFT.

hth

OxfordBags Wed 03-Apr-13 22:11:03

Great article from Ricky Tomlinson on benefits myths:
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/02/ten-lies-told-about-welfare

PeneloPeePitstop Wed 03-Apr-13 22:15:28
SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Thu 04-Apr-13 14:01:06

PeneloPeePitstop Wiki entry for astroturfing en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing

Isabeller Thu 04-Apr-13 17:55:40

Wow that is incredibly interesting Saskia this Mumsnet thing is an education smile

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