Strip club!

(646 Posts)

So dh has been kicked out back to his Mothers following a night out Saturday, that ended at a strip club, not only that but also paying for a lap dance from a young girl in nothing but a thong. Ive never been so mad, there was 3 of them. It makes me feel sick, he has apologised + claimed he didn't enjoy it one bit, it was worse than he imagined etc. but i just feel like people around me ( his family) Probably think im over reacting, so my question is, what would u do?

pinkyredrose Fri 29-Mar-13 21:43:22

Talk to him? Maybe his mates put pressure on him to go and he didn't want to be odd one out?

HeySoulSister Fri 29-Mar-13 21:43:27

How did you find out?

I would do exactly as you have done. Deal breaker and the same as cheating IMO. If you decided to have a sexy dance with some random bloke in a club who just happened to be ripped like a ChipNDale and wearing nothing but underpants I take it he'd be quite happy with that? hmm No, so why should you have to put up with it. I think you've done the right thing.

EostreChaoticResurrEggtion Fri 29-Mar-13 21:45:47

Probably the same as you...I'm single atm so it's not something I'll have to face in the foreseeable future.

There will be some posters who will tell you that you're overreacting and it wouldn't bother them one bit but that's them. You are entitled to your feelings. You are entitled to decide what your dealbreakers are and to enforce them if that's what you choose to do. So if you decide that it is a dealbreaker then nobody else has the right to tell you that you're wrong.

Btw it's none of his family's business.

pinkyredrose can that really be used as an excuse? My friends made me do it and I didn't want to be left out. hmm He's not 5 years old!

IWantATowel Fri 29-Mar-13 21:49:37

I would go fucking spare.

LadyWidmerpool Fri 29-Mar-13 21:50:14

I would do the same. I think my MIL would be furious too, but I am lucky with my ILs.

Plumsofgold Fri 29-Mar-13 21:52:08

I'd class it as cheating too. What a wanker!!

PoppyWearer Fri 29-Mar-13 21:55:16

It depends...did your DH tell you about it or did you find out from someone else?

Ye, it does matter.

Lessthanaballpark Fri 29-Mar-13 21:55:56

Dealbreaker for me. Imagine if he'd done it without paying for it, with just some random girl in a club who did it voluntarily? That'd be like cheating for sure. So why does it make it better that he paid for it?

Fleecyslippers Fri 29-Mar-13 21:57:22

Deal breaker for me. Vile. That is someones daughter who is being exploited for money.

aldiwhore Fri 29-Mar-13 21:57:56

Was it Snow Patrol that sang about a sincere apology that didn't mean they didn't enjoy it at the time?

He's sorry. Truly sorry. He enjoyed it. So he's lying to try and scrape some get out clause out of it. He was weak, disrespectful to you. Forgiveable perhaps. What would make me think less than anything of him is the old 'I was just going with the flow' - I'd more readily forgive my DH for a private dance he admitted to enjoying and was sorry about than for being a sheep.

It wouldn't be a marriage breaker, and the house you live in is both of yours, and really to involve his mother is rather dangerous ground... it invites opinions that aren't purely yours and your DH's. However, if it were my DH with the same lame excuses, we would not be sharing a bed for a while, even if it meant I slept on the sofa not him. But I'm a believer in taking myself out of a situation rather than ordering another into one, our bed is ours, if I don't want to sleep with DH, I will leave the room!

He needs to know you find this unacceptable. He needs to know you are hurt. He needs to understand that he needs to be stronger (either by simply refusing and not being a sheep, or lying about his enjoyment of it) because he's married, and regardless of anything else, legally he's VOWED to be exclusive, so everything else aside his actions are serious.

I still wouldn' leave him though. But it's a tough call, because my DH isn't remotely interest in strip clubs, has walked away from a night out if it looks like it's ending there (to face my wrath and being called out to pick him up) and IF he did end up paying for a private dance would at least admit he liked it, but was sorry. There'd be hell to pay for sure.

But it would be all conducted at home, in house and over a period of time... (although if it was deal breaker, he'd leave of his own accord at some point I am sure, seeing as I'd be hell to live with).

YANBU to feel very hurt and angry. Get honesty from him, judge him by how you know him (none of us can do that bit) and take it from there.

EostreChaoticResurrEggtion Fri 29-Mar-13 21:58:30

Why does it matter who told the OP?

The action is still the same however she found out about it hmm

hopefloats Fri 29-Mar-13 22:00:01

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

aldiwhore Fri 29-Mar-13 22:02:25

1/2 bollocks hopefloats

I was in agreement until that old chestnut making it the woman's fault for not giving out enough blow jobs... that is UTTER BOLLOCKS. Yet another lame excuse.

Though I do agree that women (not girls I hope) who work in these venues, often enjoy it and love the money and attention (a lot of the time, not all).

ruledbyheart Fri 29-Mar-13 22:02:47

In my opinion yabu but it is personal to each couple, you have your rules etc and providing he knew your opinion on strip clubs before doing it then I understand why you'd be annoyed and if that was laid down as a dealbreaker fair enough.
However if the rules weren't clear then maybe you just need to discuss this.

hopefloats if they are unhappy they should change things or leave. Not have a semi-naked young women wave her arse in their face. I know it SOUNDS like relationship counselling but isn't the same.

I can imagine what he would say if she was unhappy at home and had a happy few minutes semi-naked with a male friend.

HollyBerryBush Fri 29-Mar-13 22:05:13

That is someones daughter who is being exploited for money.

Ummm I rather think that is someone who has her head screwed on, making the most of her assets and is exploiting men for the contents of their wallet.

A fool and their money yada yada

WillYouDoTheBunnyHop Fri 29-Mar-13 22:06:01

If he knew how you felt about strips clubs and went anyway then YANBU.

For me the going wouldn't be a problem, the paying a fuckload of money for a lapdance would though.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Fri 29-Mar-13 22:06:25

Men who are not sexually satisfied at home, visit these clubs. The fault is closer to home, I believe. I feel sorry for him.


So the OP should do lap dances to keep her man? I've heard it all now.

PoppyWearer Fri 29-Mar-13 22:09:52

It makes a difference if he woke up the morning after and said "oh God, I can't believe what we did last night, I am SO sorry, what was I thinking, she was horrible, you are much more attractive!?" or did you find out indirectly - did he try to hide it?

The first, in my book, makes it better (not ok, but better).

RatPants Fri 29-Mar-13 22:10:10

I'd take this as my cue to writhe naked in another man's lap, op. grin

After all, what could he possibly complain about?

YouTheCat Fri 29-Mar-13 22:10:19

Hope, what a vile thing to say.

The OP didn't force her husband into that club and make him pay for a lapdance did she?

ENormaSnob Fri 29-Mar-13 22:10:39

My marriage would be over too.

Oh and a bit of food for thought, I was offered a job as a lap dancer when I was 15.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Fri 29-Mar-13 22:12:50

Enorma it makes my flesh crawl to think there is a market for 15 yr olds. Sick bastards.

Thanks for that hopefloats. Sorry if I havent put out enough, we have a newborn.

I just wanted to know what people thought on this, I asked for opinions and got them. I don't blame the girl btw she was "doing her job" he is all to blame.

Lessthanaballpark Fri 29-Mar-13 22:13:18

I don't see anything being "hysterical" except for you, hopefloats. Regardless of whether the lapdancer was happy or not, the OP's DH was still doing something he knew he shouldn't. Can't see how it makes it any better from his point of view.

YouTheCat Fri 29-Mar-13 22:14:02

He had the option of saying 'no'.

ENormaSnob Fri 29-Mar-13 22:14:48

It's awful hoho.

My friends sister started in that industry at the age of 16 sad

countrykitten Fri 29-Mar-13 22:14:48

There was a poster on here not so long ago who DID lapdance for her husband because he liked going to them and she wanted to 'keep' him. Bloody grim.

hopefloats you really are not getting it are you? Hard to believe that women actually think like this.

pinkyredrose Fri 29-Mar-13 22:15:05

Of course he's not 5! It's just that these threads on strip clubs often explode into hysteria.

He saw some womans boobs big wow. He didn't shag her.

I know quite a few strippers and they're as far away from exploited as you can get. I actually think the men are the fools in this situation, paying through the nose to see female flesh when they've got perfectly good partners at home. More fool them.

YouTheCat Fri 29-Mar-13 22:16:19

Yes, but Pinky, it's more about the utter lack of respect for his wife.

countrykitten Fri 29-Mar-13 22:17:30

Enorma that is appalling and sad.

aldiwhore Fri 29-Mar-13 22:17:42

And Enorma I gave my ex lots of lovely blow jobs, yet he still shagged about wink

hope the maths doesn't add up.

Basically whatever your opinion on strip clubs (and against the grain I really do not have much of an issue with them if their not exploiting known addicts, paying fairly and all the women are of age) it's the customer's responsibility to behave in a way that i appropriate for whatever promises they've made back home... and the op's DH is a liar either way. He either DID enjoy it and is sorry in the light of day (most likely) or he was forced into it by peer pressure and hated every living moment (highly unlikely, most of the women in these clubs have great bodies and know how to use them). If it's the latter he would have come home guilt ridden and upset. If it's the former he should at least man up and admit he enjoyed it BUT knows it was wrong and is sorry.

More than the act I loathe the bullshit.

BUT marriage is a unit, your bed is his bed, your house is his house, no one has the right to 'kick the other out'. (I'd personally be checking into an expensive hotel, with the children and using our joint savings card/credit card, which HE would then pay for).

countrykitten Fri 29-Mar-13 22:18:00

And yes to what YouTheCat said.

RatPants Fri 29-Mar-13 22:19:04

Dear Men, strippers don't really like you. Neither do prostitutes. When you leave they laugh at / pity you. Hope this clears things up. Love Rat grin

thanks Hope, oh we have a newborn so sorry about not putting out not feeling all that sexy right now not to mention the tiredness. we had some food drinks at home with family and friends for his birthday, family left and him and friends continued drinking I had 1 glass of wine as i had our baby to mind, and a friend suggested going to the bar and i thought this was fine as he nevr goes out and it was his birthday so i stayed behind and he went, thats how it came about.

ENormaSnob Fri 29-Mar-13 22:21:03

Why is that to me aldiwhore? confused

I never mentioned bjs or cheating.

kotinka Fri 29-Mar-13 22:22:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Iwantmybed Fri 29-Mar-13 22:23:01

It wouldn't be an issue for me but what's important is that it is a dealbreaker for you. It's about where your line is crossed. I feel for you OP and I'm sorry you're having to deal with this with having a newborn.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Fri 29-Mar-13 22:23:16

grin Rat. So true. Unfortunately the men don't care if they're liked. They just want tits and fanny in their face and a dry hump. Classy.

kotinka Fri 29-Mar-13 22:28:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Samu2 Fri 29-Mar-13 22:31:09

Deal breaker here too.

We both know the deal, if he was to break it then I assume he doesn't care much for our marriage.

Paying a girl to wave her boobs in your face and grind around is sexual - it would be cheating if it was a girl he met in a bar so not sure why its different? My DP knows it would be a deal breaker for me. Its your relationship though and only you can decide if it is a deal breaker for you, I hope that you can get though it if thats what you want

HollyBerryBush Fri 29-Mar-13 22:35:08

Oh god! Should I divorce DH???? he sent me a Chippendale-o-gram on my very raucous hen night with his and my mother, assorted old family dears in a pleasant restaurant.

>clasps hand to brow< I abused a very short Australian... OMG he must have been coerced into it, colonial slave labour, I wonder who was pimping him?

countrykitten Fri 29-Mar-13 22:37:01

That is a really dumb post HollyBerryBush - don't belittle the OP's concerns in this way.

RatPants Fri 29-Mar-13 22:37:30

P.S. And now your wife is angry with you. Nobody wants to sleep with you.


I think that's the part I don't get HoHo. Surely they know these girls aren't attracted to them? I'd be mortified to pay some man who didn't fancy me to wave his willy in my face and simulate sex with me. Why is it different?

Sorry for the tangent op. I would not be happy at all, especially with a newborn at home. I hope this isn't the end of your marriage and he is genuinely sorry and you two manage to find a way through this.

kotinka Fri 29-Mar-13 22:40:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NumericalMum Fri 29-Mar-13 22:43:38

I hate the places and wish my DH wouldn't go, but he is a pathetic 5 year old when it comes to peer pressure and I knew that when I married him.

I seriously couldn't imagine taking my children from their father over a trip to a strip club though. hmm

kotinka Fri 29-Mar-13 22:48:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DreamingofSummer Fri 29-Mar-13 22:49:29

What's the weather like today in black and white land?

HoHoHoNoYouDont Fri 29-Mar-13 22:52:57

I asked a male friend of mine who regularly visits lap dancing clubs how would he feel if his 25 yr old daughter started working in one. His response was that he wouldn't mind her dancing around a pole but wouldn't like her doing lap dances, never mind the VIP/private dances. He reckons there are 'clubs' and there are 'bad clubs' meaning what goes on in them. He should know, he's been to that many.

I would divorce my DH if he sent he a Chippendale-o-gram. It would prove that he didn't know me at all.

I do really wonder at the people being so unsympathetic to a women who was fine with her DH going out, even though she has a young baby, gave him a nice birthday but draws the line at him paying a woman to be sexual with him. Either it is sexual, in which case wrong or not in which case why exactly are they doing it?

kotinka Fri 29-Mar-13 22:58:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NumericalMum Fri 29-Mar-13 23:02:56

I am very sympathetic MrsTerry but can't recommend breaking p a family after one idiotic moment by a drunken man?

I wasn't referring to you Numerical smile I don't know if I would. I would be very hurt and angry and expect him to understand why. I don't think this is a woman breaking up a marriage, though. If he knew this was a deal breaker and in most marriages being sexual with another person is, HE did the breaking not her.

i understand that numericalmum, but then surely im giving the message that this kind of behaviour is acceptable? He has well and truely disrespected me + he was not thinking of r family unit when another lady shook her ass at him + stuck her tits in his face!!

kotinka Fri 29-Mar-13 23:06:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ok, so please help me, what would u suggest. Its easy giving advise when your not hurting and it's not u, remember that.

Darkesteyes Fri 29-Mar-13 23:15:52

everything ask him how he would feel if you shook yr boobs in the postmans face tomorrow morning.

FucktidiaBollockberry Fri 29-Mar-13 23:17:58

Your question was "what would u do"

Well, I would not want a man who goes to strip club and pays for lap dances in my bed or my home. He would not be a man who has values consistent with mine and with those I want my children brought up with, so out he would go.

I don't care what other women would do, if they're married to weak five year olds, that's up to them, I personally would not find someone with the moral integrity of a weak five year old sexually, intellectually or emotionally attractive, but each to her own - some women find pathetic losers knee-tremblingly gorgeous, some women fancy Jeremy Clarkson - there's no accounting for taste

kotinka Fri 29-Mar-13 23:27:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

whataguy Fri 29-Mar-13 23:27:50

I suggest making him do all the work at reconciliation now, just be extremely cool and maybe keep it out of the house for a couple of weeks, so that it really sinks in. See how much effort he makes and what exactly he says, whether it comes across as hearfelt. If he really didn't enjoy it for one minute (as he said), then possiblt there is something to save.

whataguy Fri 29-Mar-13 23:30:24

surely she should put her foot down now, not let it go as if it didn't affect her, she's very upset, kot! It is even worse than other cases because his wife just had a baby fgs, must really feel like betrayal when she's so vulnerable angry.

Lovecat Fri 29-Mar-13 23:33:28

What I'd do?

Pretty much what you've already done. And be looking up divorce lawyers. I couldn't be with someone who a) didn't respect me b) showed so little respect to women in general. That you have a newborn just compounds the yuck factor.

You know your relationship and your boundaries best, OP. I wouldn't allow his family to make you feel like you're overreacting.

Lessthanaballpark Fri 29-Mar-13 23:34:11

LOL at thought of someone fancying Jeremy Clarkson.

On a "what would you do" note, I would convey to him how hurt you are and betrayed you feel and tell him you respect him less as you didn't think he was that kind of man.

But I wouldn't leave him if you are happy in every other aspect of your relationship.

everydayaschoolday Fri 29-Mar-13 23:34:36

Everything you're Q should not be 'what would u do' but rather like your last post 'what do u suggest'. We're all different with different boundaries.

What do I suggest? - I think you should talk to him. You need to establish if you can see yourself moving on from this, and regaining trust and respect in due course.

whataguy Fri 29-Mar-13 23:35:08

I meant, keep HIM out of the house

Lessthanaballpark Fri 29-Mar-13 23:37:31

And definitely impress upon him how gross it is that you were tending to your newborn whilst he was getting his rocks off with another woman.

kotinka Fri 29-Mar-13 23:47:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aldiwhore Fri 29-Mar-13 23:54:01

op whatever I think, or whatever anyone else thinks, on this issue you are utterly alone I'm sorry, because 'we' can only give our take on it, based on the relationships we are in (or not in).

The question is not AYBU, but more, what is acceptable to you? Worst case scenario, you split with your DH forever. Is that what will make you feel that justice has been served? If so, go for it. If not, when will you feel that it's worth working through? (Given that you're fuming now and would happily roast him alive, that would be very unreasonable by the way) How much time do you think you'll need? Your hurt is immediate and will last a while. The 'punishment' isn't doing anything to resolve this, it's just kicking him into the doghouse whilst you collect your thoughts. (I disagree with you on the whole 'send him to his mothers' issue, but it's not MY life, I do however agree that there needs to be a period of silence while you both think).

You ask, AIBU to evict a person from their own home when they've done something the other finds seriously offensive and hurtful? You'll get many saying you haven't gone far enough, you'll get many saying you've gone way too far. As an adult in an otherwise loving relationship you need to try and find a way to resolve this. It's not a 'new' problem, married couples have faced these things for years, but it's not one with a solid answer either, the question is, is this out of character for him? That is key.

Coould his actions fall under your 'mitigating circumstances' radar, as in, not acceptable, not immediately forgiveable, but not a deal breaker either? He's a man, and that is not a dismissive statement. He's a grown up, he's also human, he's fucked up. He needs to show you he's sorry, prove he understands that whatever reason, his behaviour has deeply hurt you and he needs to accept he fucked up. I don't think what he did was okay. I also think that sometimes humans do the stupidest of things, especially when they fall on your lap (no pun intended), and if you're in a really good relationship, you take time to make it up, and you try and work through it, which requires YOU to find a point of forgiveness, and mostly, requires time.

Only you can decide whether you can or can't. Only he can decide if it's worth taking the shit for.

I'll be the first to say LTB if he does it again.

kotinka Sat 30-Mar-13 00:00:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SomethingOnce Sat 30-Mar-13 00:04:58

What does his mother think about her DS getting a lap dance while her DIL is at home with newborn GD?

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 00:11:27

kotinka if he had taken a gun and shot someone because his mates had demanded that he do it, he would be serving the prison sentence not them.
He is responsible for his own actions.

sorry i did word this quite poorly, I think i was looking for sympathy if i'm honest, i feel rotten. He has never done anything like this b4, he has text me that he is sorry over and over, and said it was the biggest mistake of his life, the thought of him sat there enjoying another woman sexually flaunting all over him is sickening to my stomach, and as someone said, imagine having sex again i would feel as though he was comparing my body, and myself, i feel so helpless all i no right now is i don't even want to see him, hence why he is out. Like u all said everyone has different feeling on it, i couldn't imagine him in r home right now, hes disgusted me, disrespected me and betrayed me!!

CharmingCats Sat 30-Mar-13 00:14:20

This struck a chord with me, as it sounds as though I have similar views to op about strip clubs.
Before I get to my suggestion for action, I just wanted to pick up the bit where he said he didn't enjoy it and it wasn't what he expected. My DH said something similar about his experience of a lap dance (before we met). He said that it was quite seedy and that the stripper didn't smell very nice and he was not that impressed with the whole thing. So, that could be what your DH meant, perhaps?
On next steps, I agree that you have needed space (don't know how you are coping with a new born alone -poor you), but now you've had some time, you will need to address the issue. I would suggest inviting him back for a chat. Entirely up to you whether he can stay afterwards. All you need to say is how you felt at the time and how you feel about it now. Then ask him how he feels about it. Give him the chance to speak and explain. Try to stay as calm as possible and hear him out. As him how you can both make it better. He may well be feeling hurt by your reaction and may fear being told to leave again in the future. (don't get me wrong, I am not judging you having asked him to go, just preempting that he may say something about it).
You may feel that he can come home after this, but not share a bed and that you need to talk about it more another time. Try to keep the conversations about it short and focused. When you're not talking about it, don't talk about it. For you to reconcile, you both need to be certain not only that it won't happen again, but that it won't be brought up during disagreements about other things.
As others have said, Only you can decide whether this is a deal breaker. You must be feeling particularly vulnerable and tired and emotional with a new born. Ty not to make any major decisions quickly, but do talk to your DH.

CharmingCats Sat 30-Mar-13 00:16:03

X posts there! Totally understand that you don't want to see him now. More suggestions for when you do feel ready.

he meant it in a way that maybe a man would fantasise about this, but doing it for real is quite scary and dirty, and he didn't realise it would be so sexual! he said without details if it was me and another man he would end it for sure.

MrsSpagBol Sat 30-Mar-13 00:24:35

Hopefloats your comments are outrageous !!!

CharmingCats Sat 30-Mar-13 00:25:57

Yes, that's what my DH meant too. The reality can be more sordid and a lot less glamorous.

CharmingCats Sat 30-Mar-13 00:26:39

It sounds as though he has a lot of empathy, fwiw.

aldiwhore Sat 30-Mar-13 00:27:49

I think it's critical for you both to be in the same building and meet it head on. The thought of it will haunt you for a while however you face it, but you are married with a new born and (I suspect) love each other very much (apart from this, which will shake you).

I only say this because your child does need both parents there at present, if there's a chance you will remain together, it's important that you are both 'the norm' right now. (If it's over, your baby will also be fine, but that's a different norm!).

If a man loves you, your body can't be beat. That doesn't mean he won't find another unattractive. It's you he wants. He's ALMOST denied himself that forver via his own stupidity. My lovely DH has an ideal 'body' and it isn't mine, but it's mine he wants... does that makes sense? You need to talk, you need to be face to face, you need to have him in the marital home and work through it. You may not want it, it may be painful, but this is your marriage... if it doesn't work out, you've given it your best.

I'm not saying this because I'm liberal or an ice maiden who can simply put aside bad, hurtful, stupid behaviour, but because maybe our 'golden oldies' have it right, it's between you two, you have to face it, or you'll have no chance. You have the moral highground here, hopefully he'll be feeling distressed and scared too. Do not give MIL (no matter how nice) TMI... as a couple, if you're to see this through, you need to face each other sooner rather than later.

No second chances, lots of talking, lots of tears, united with your baby, and a lot of time. Rash decisions will see you single quick, and that is OKAY if that's the way it turns out, and it will be his fault ultimately. My advice is be brave, tell him all of this again and again and again face to face, just you two, and see where you are in 6 months (there is no quick fix). x

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 00:41:57

everythinghappensforareasonSat 30-Mar-13 00:19:07

he meant it in a way that maybe a man would fantasise about this, but doing it for real is quite scary and dirty, and he didn't realise it would be so sexual! he said without details if it was me and another man he would end it for sure.

Which makes him a raging hypocrite as well as a mysogynist.

aldiwhore Sat 30-Mar-13 00:45:45

I think most people are hypothetical hypocrites?

Mysogynist? I think that's more about the person as a whole, not an action? Although his behaviour certainly was. I have behaved in ways that disrespected men in the past, but I'm not the label.

Nit picking.

it does indeed! if this is going too work we defiantly need to start over, build our trust etc. I just can't beliive he did this x

RaspberryRuffle Sat 30-Mar-13 00:52:31

I wouldn't kick him out and especially not to his mum's. Aldiwhore seems spot on about a marriage being a unit, at worst make him sleep on sofa.
I personally wouldn't class a lapdance as cheating. It seems ott to split over this, use the chance to talk, let him know you were hurt and let him make it up to you...obviously he will now know how you feel about these clubs so for the future it would be different (for you, which is what matters).
Incidentally I know girls who had no student debt and earned what they deemed 'easy money' in clubs.

so raspberry if ur dh let a young girl grind on his lap? and put her tits in his face that's ok? fair enough- each to there own i guess. Not acceptable to me though. I'd rather my man only had eyes for me.

Ive seen alot on tv how most r students, good luck to them. I'm mad at DH for what he did, its that young girls family that should be dealing with her, i personally would rather my daughter was in debt than flashing her body for money, she's worth much more!!

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 01:07:17

Would you class it as cheating if one of your friends or one of his female friends had lap danced for him "as a laugh" and money hadnt changed hands?

Not being facetious im honestly asking.

well if she was fully clothed and it was a laugh and he hadn't gone to a strip club to see a naked stranger, then no it wouldn't be.
... that's a terrible comparison :s

DramaLlamaFarmer Sat 30-Mar-13 01:11:51

One only has to get as far as half way down the first page before HollyBerryBush can be found dispensing life advice like tic tacs. I have to wonder if this poster is in fact employed by a rag newspaper in order to incite emotive responses.

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 01:12:32

everything my last post was directed at Raspberry Ruffle because she said she didnt consider a lap dance as cheating so im asking if she would see it the same way if there was no money involved.

I feel the same way as you and Mrs Pratchett everything.

oh my bad, sorry smile

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 01:15:19

Everything i would feel EXACTLY the same as you. thanks

Thankyou for understanding, i think i just wanted to feel like i wasn't the onl person to see this as betrayal and disrespectful xx

aldiwhore Sat 30-Mar-13 01:30:27

I'd be beyond livid and hurt if my DH did this everything I'm not trying to make it sound like what he did was okay.

It falls within the realms of cheating for sure, as in, doing something that you KNOW is unacceptable and hurtful, being involved in any activity that could be considered 'intimate'. Definitely not a situation where a 'sorry' is enough, or something that is easily fixed.

The fact that he loves you doesn't make other women unattractive, but should make him not act on that attraction. Beer, ease of access, a controlled public environment, money changing hands, friends doing the same - not excuses, nothing 'excuses' his behaviour - but are all mitigating circumstances that could make a good person do a bad thing.

There's no such thing really as 'only having eyes' for one person, there's millions of beautiful people in the world, I'm not the prettiest woman my DH has ever met, I'm the one he's chosen to be exclusive with. That's the point. He should only have loyalty to you, and he's messed up hasn't he?

Is he worth working through this? Do you believe him when he says it was a mistake (whether he enjoyed it at the time or not?) do you believe that he will learn? Will you be able to forgive him? (Not men in general, him, that man you know...)

Once is a mistake, twice is a choice.

I was snogged a horror of a man when out with the girls, goaded, drunk, in the moment (not whilst with DH, my first 'love') and I felt utterly rotten. Utterly.

I said to a friend though if he was just in the moment in a club drunken similar to your case, then i might have forgiven a little easier, he went there knowing what was what, as in it was never a shock to be in that situation, although i think he is shocked and it was more full on than he expected!

Numberlock Sat 30-Mar-13 07:27:38

So other than sending the texts saying how sorry he is, what else is he suggesting in terms of proving his worth to you?

Is he suggesting meeting up to talk? Counselling? Asking to do his share with the baby?

everydayaschoolday Sat 30-Mar-13 08:26:16

Morning Everything. Hope you managed to get some sleep last night. You clearly love each other very much. I think you'll work this through together, but I'm not dismissing how hurt you feel or how hard it might be to put it behind you both. Hope it works out x

Creameggkr Sat 30-Mar-13 08:48:46

Op I've seen hundreds of these threads over the years and its generally the same. Lots of balanced calm advice with a few either end to the extreme. Either - get divorced (not always practical or necessary) or the apologists who day it's just Menz needing their sexy time (equally ridiculous)
The thing is for most if us it is unacceptable for put partners to pay family money for a strange girl to dance naked whilst our husbands stare at them with a hard on!!
For those who aren't bothered by it then that's up to them but what you need to remember is that he went there of his own accord. Being drunk is not a cop out for bad behaviour.
It's not your fault for not giving him enough sex.
Men's sexual desires are not special or different to women's despite popular beliefs.
So don't get upset with people who are telling you how wrong you are. Concentrate on the posters who hold the same beliefs and maybe take their suggestions.
For what it's worth I'd do what you are doing.
I would also be very hurt and disillusioned.
Good luck

Lessthanaballpark Sat 30-Mar-13 08:50:03

Once is a mistake, twice is a choice

I like that. Very wise.

he has been doing his share, we have ds of 2 years also, he has had him over the weekend, i am not ready for dd to leave me (also bf) he will be round in a flash if i asked, i don't see what there is to talk about, i don't want him near me for now! he just keeps saying sorry. ino theres not much else he can do, and i do genuinely believe he is sorry but it doesn't change that fact he done it, and he wasn't sorry at the time, if he was that uncomftable and awkward as he claims, why sit there? why not get up and leave, he said "i don't know" when i asked him this!!

Sianilaa Sat 30-Mar-13 10:45:22

I'm with the OP actually. It would be a massive deal breaker for me.

I would not want to be married to a man who thought it was ok to buy a woman to get him off. It would disgust me so much that he believed women were objects to buy I'd never be able to be intimate with him again. And that's without the added info that OP is at home with a tiny newborn baby and organised him a lovely birthday for him to then disrespect her like that.

If it was me, he'd be out the door.

Thats so true sian, i hate men that just see women as a peace of meat to get themselves off, it makes my skin crawl so bad. Trust me he's out the door, not 1 thing of his left in the house, i couldn't be more mad, not even a girl in a club, but a stripper/prostitute!!

Sianilaa Sat 30-Mar-13 10:59:22

I think I could potentially forgive my DH for a drunken one night stand - I could maybe understand getting blotto and getting carried away...

But for your DH to plan to get cash and go to a club, knowing he is going to pay a woman to gyrate all over him... It's premeditated, cold... It makes my skin crawl.

Sorry op xx

me to, At least i'm not the only one with these morals. xx

namechangeguy Sat 30-Mar-13 11:07:32

I have skim read this thread so may have missed a previous answer, but how aware was he of your feelings in this matter? Is it a subject that has cropped up before in conversation?

If he knew how you would feel and did it anyway, he sounds like a twat. If I did something that I knew my wife would be repulsed by, I would expect no sympathy or forgiveness, drunk or not. If it was something that I had no idea about how she might feel, then there is room for forgiveness - at least until I did it again. Some women are okay with these places, and some are not.

I asked him if he knew i would be upset-- and he said yes! it's the little details like that that hurt the most!!

countrykitten Sat 30-Mar-13 11:13:13

Tbh -I would not want to be with my dh after this. It would change the dynamic of our relationship too much and I know that I could not forgive him.

It's a gross violation of trust and it would be that (rather than the manky stripper sitting on his cock) that would make me finish it.

BumbleBee2011 Sat 30-Mar-13 11:15:09

OP just wanted to say I'm expecting DD2, (DD1 will be 2 yo too) and what has happened to you has actually made me cry, it's horrible.

I would have done exactly the same thing as you, DH would be at his parents' for the foreseeable future and I would genuinely be weighing things up.

As an aside DH is going on a stag do next month, half feel like calling all our male friends in for a "chat" now about these places.

Dahlen Sat 30-Mar-13 11:15:18

I'm largely in agreement with namechangeguy.

Strip clubs are a definite dealbreaker for me, and no partner I've ever been with would be under any confusion as to how I feel about it. But we live in a society, sadly, where these things are billed as a harmless form of entertainment and normalised. Have you talked about it? Although I'd be surprised if it hadn't come up in some way during the time you've been together.

That said, while I appreciate that many people are unaware of how harmful these places are, I'm not sure I could feel the same way about someone who hadn't even stopped to think about how these places worked and drawn some fairly obvious conclusions IMO.

namechangeguy Sat 30-Mar-13 11:15:35

Then ask yourself whether you can trust him. Some people will grow up after a mistake like this. Some people will keep on taking the piss, doing what they want and then hope for forgiveness. What type of person is he?

If he's saying she kept her thong on then he's a liar as well.

I guess i never thought to say " oh by the way don't let naked women sit on u and pay them" (don't mean to sound funny) so no its never came up, and the only way to no he's going to change is give him a chance bt what if something happenes again? in months or years, its kind of my own fault then knowing what he's capable of, or maybe he will man up. i really don't know.
What makes u say that AKiss!!

thezebrawearspurple Sat 30-Mar-13 11:27:43

I don't for one second believe him when he says he didn't enjoy it, he's just trying to make you feel better. I don't really think there's anything wrong with what he did, it was just a dance, they're paying for the fantasy, better than going off with someone and acting it out. It wasn't a relationship, one night stand or even a mild flirtation, just a simple business transaction.

Unless they've been castrated or are asexual, men are going to fantasise, their heads will turn at a pretty girl, they will find other people attractive. As long as they stick to fantasy, then what's the big deal?

too me this is acting out fantasy though? watching porn is fantasising, "looking and not touching is fantasising" he had a naked girl on his lap turning him on, thats pretty messed up if u ask me. i don't believe him either he obviously liked it to sit there!!

Because the whole purpose of the private dances is for the woman to do more than she does when she dances in the main areas. Punters expect the women to get naked. (How do I know this? Several of my friends have been or still are lap dancers)

namechangeguy Sat 30-Mar-13 11:35:47

I asked because I know my wife's feelings on this matter. If I had done what your dh had done, my wife would not be upset. But that is her, and I know how she feels because it has come up in discussion in the past.

If she was dead set against lapdancers, and I knew it, she would have every right to be angry. It isn't so much about the morals of the lapdancing industry, but how much your partner respects your views and feelings.

Thanks, it's good to know! x

countrykitten Sat 30-Mar-13 11:46:40

zebra what a bloody feeble argument that is! It's better than getting off with someone....WTAF?

I do despair at some people I really do.

RunRabbit Sat 30-Mar-13 11:47:34

Dealbreaker for me and same as cheating IMO. I couldn't put up with that level of disrespect.

How it goes on for you depends on what you want and whether this is a dealbreaker for you or something you can eventually overcome everythinghappensforareason.
Good luck whichever you choose, I can't imagine how you're feeling right now.

namechangeguy If you want to do something and you have no idea how your partner will react. Especially if the case is of a sexual nature. Wouldn't it make more sense to find out how the partner feels before engaging rather than saying, 'well I didn't know you weren't ok with it' after doing it and asking for forgiveness?

namechangeguy Sat 30-Mar-13 11:56:48

Rabbit - yes, ideally you would ask. If my wife felt so strongly about something like this, I suspect I would know. Sometimes people can surprise you, though, with their feelings on a particular subject.

RaspberryRuffle Sat 30-Mar-13 12:43:45

To Darkest eyes I happen to agree with zebra who views a lapdance as a business transaction, there is no emotional involvement, it is a fantasy for many...and doesn't bother me. The girl is getting paid so presumably is happy enough. If friends are giving lapdnces for free they are not getting paid, that is not a business transaction and is different, I would wonder why my friend wanted to perform a lapdance for my DH.

To everything I was sympathising with your plight as you are hurt (and many others would be too). I am not namechangeguy's wife but I also have not got a problem, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.
How young was the dancer, you asked how I would feel about a -young girl- dancing for my DH. That would obviously be wrong and abhorrent if underage girls are working in a lapdancing club.

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Sat 30-Mar-13 12:58:57

I guess i never thought to say " oh by the way don't let naked women sit on u and pay them"

Well quite!

It agree with you OP - it would be cheating as far as I'm concerned, and I would do the same as you. I do not want to be with a man who will use women working in the sex industry to get his rocks off.

Some people -apparently- are cool with their partners visiting these places and will tell you that you are 'over-reacting'. I have no idea why they would this - although I can take a few educated guesses. Ignore them - you know your own mind about this.

chris481 Sat 30-Mar-13 13:22:35

"Men's sexual desires are not special or different to women's despite popular beliefs."

We probably need a separate thread for this, but it would cheer me up if someone could persuade me this is true. I heard a (female) Dutch researcher on the Today program once, she'd found that of women over the age of 30 who'd been in a relationship for more than four years, half (or was it two thirds?) had no interest in sex any more.

She didn't quote a figure for men, but I'd guess that the equivalent statistic would be less than 1% had no interest.

So I think men and women are often fundamentally incompatible, and a significant proportion of relationships contain a partner who is unhappy with their sex life.

Nature hasn't designed us to be compatible or happy, all it wants is for us to reproduce and our children to live until they reproduce.

pinkyredrose Sat 30-Mar-13 13:26:49

Stripper or prostitute? Make your mind up OP.

chris481 Sat 30-Mar-13 13:32:51

"Men's sexual desires are not special or different to women's despite popular beliefs."

Also, I believe most men can achieve a near-100% orgasm to sexual intercourse ratio, regardless of the competence of otherwise of their partner. In fact they could achieve the same with a blow-up doll. I have a general impression that women are a bit more complicated and, on average, hugely less successful, assuming we define success in this way.

So I do really think the quoted comment is wrong.

BelaLugosisShed Sat 30-Mar-13 13:42:11

What are you banging on about Chris481? hmm
Stop derailing the thread with bollocks about how women don't want sex.

Nature hasn't designed us to be compatible or happy, all it wants is for us to reproduce and our children to live until they reproduce

Umm Chris...Just because we have 'primal urges' & we're 'designed to reproduce' doesn't mean we're controlled by that. If we were all unable to control our 'primal urges' I'd have murdered the mum that said my DS looked a little too big fat for his age the other day.


We also have a conscience & the ability to think before we do, regardless of gender hmm

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Sat 30-Mar-13 14:10:42

Also, I believe most men can achieve a near-100% orgasm to sexual intercourse ratio, regardless of the competence of otherwise of their partner. In fact they could achieve the same with a blow-up doll. I have a general impression that women are a bit more complicated and, on average, hugely less successful, assuming we define success in this way.

What on earth do you mean by posting that? Are you trying to imply that women are 'frigid' or something, and that excuses men going to strip clubs?

"women are a bit more complicated" are they? Maybe - to ham-fisted teenage boys who have been watching too much porn to realise that women are not the same as blow-up dolls. hmm

Or, perhaps I've just been more fortunate with my sexual partners.

ChairmanWow Sat 30-Mar-13 14:21:15

Chris - please take your cod psychology somewhere else. It's irrelevant and frankly a boring cliche. Some men are very sexual, some aren't. Shockingly the same applies to women. The end.

everythinghappens as mum to a newborn and 2 yo I completely sympathise with where you're at. This is supposedly a special time in our lives, also a difficult time in terms not just of sleep-deprivation but also body image. Anyone telling you you're OTT isn't getting where things are in your life and with your family. You were literally left holding the baby while the father of your kids ogled a naked or near-naked woman. I don't see how this scenario could actually be any more distasteful.

It's up to you whether you think this is cheating or not. If you do then that's the conversation you need to have with him when you're ready (you don't sound ready yet). His apology is a good start but he has clearly wounded you very deeply and you both need to work through this to decide whether you can trust him or not. Personally my issue would be with my DH getting sexual thrills out of an industry which exploits and dehumanises women. It doesn't matter how explicitly we've discussed it, the fact someone thinks it's okay is enough to diminish them in my eyes.

Interesting how those who defend the industry call the performers 'girls' not women isn't it. Very belittling.

I hope you can work this out everything. There are lots of people on here who will give support. Maybe post under relationships rather than AIBU though! thanks

Gossipmonster Sat 30-Mar-13 15:03:07

I don't really understand why everyone gets so hysterical on here about strip clubs.

It's perfectly legal in this country.

My OH watches a lot of porn as we have a long distance relationship, I trust him 100%, it really wouldn't bother me if he went to a strip club and had a private dance. It's a sexual fantasy it is not reality and at the end of the day I trust him. It is not cheating.

When he masturbates I don't expect him to always be thinking of me as I am not always of him. Is that also cheating?

i do not no pinky, and assume most are both, either way both r women who for the right cash will drop all self-respect,.. just saying!!!!

I think ive decided right now space is the best thing, and a proper conversation when i have calmed down, although its been 6 days and i still feel the same as when 1st told.

morethanpotatoprints Sat 30-Mar-13 15:11:27

OP, it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, its you that matters.
So if all the responses are either way condoning, or not. What does it matter. It is you that have to live with him or not.

For this reason I'm not telling you what I would do, or what I think.

So sorry you are upset though and feel the way you do. I hope you sort it out soon and send you big hugs.

RatPants Sat 30-Mar-13 15:12:03

Take all the time you need everything, recovery from this is entirely on your terms and at your say so. Thinking of you.

Thankyou ladies x

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 16:27:24

Chris your post reeks of mysogyny. You need to click on my username and read some of my posting history.
In fact i will find the article i wrote for moresexdaily and link it in here. Fucking hell stereotype much. Testosterone levels in women actually INCREASE from their late thirties.

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 16:30:52
Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 16:31:53

From the article.

Society seems to have no trouble believing that women don’t want sex, but they struggle to come to terms with the idea that a man might not want it. This lack of understanding makes women scared to speak out. What woman is going to stick her head above the parapet and say “I live in a sexless marriage” and talk about it frankly and honestly in public. Actually, I can answer that “NONE”. And so women like me who live in sexless marriages continue to suffer in silence.

We feel that we cannot discuss the issue with anyone. We are made to feel that it is our fault. Magazine articles and books on the subject advise women to buy some sexy undies and make more effort with their appearance etc. Though it’s the man who doesn’t want sex, it is the women who are told to make more effort with their looks. If the situation is reversed and it is the woman who doesn’t want to make love, pressure is put on her (marital and societal) to go to the GP to see what is wrong

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 16:33:24

Society seems to have no trouble believing that women dont want sex.

Chris proves the point in my article beautifully.

RaspberryRuffle Sat 30-Mar-13 16:39:23

everything, don't assume that all women who work in the sex industry have lost all self respect, because that attitude is disrespectful to them.
For you thsi is an important issue, for other's it is not. A sseveral people have said, sort out what works for you and your DH. I feel for you coping with this upset and a newborn.

The reason I said 'girls' earlier is that I was talking about my peers, people I know, I felt like we were 'girls' at uni, I still say I'm meeting the 'girls' I was not trying to demean women who work as lapdancers (can't remember who posted that, just clarifying).
Also the OP has repeated that a young girl danced for her DH, I was wondering how young?

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 16:43:03

everything i dont think its fair to blame the dancers. Because if there wasnt the demand for it they wouldnt be able to do it.

Especially in todays economic climate which i think may cause more people to enter this industry. Especially when it comes to a chioice of either doing this or not doing it and your children going without food.

OP you have to do what you feel is right for you. it is an eye opener to how your dh feels about women though.

Darkesteyes I think it may be that society doesn't want to face that some women don't want lazy, shit sex in crappy marriages where that is the only affection they get and they are expected to skivvy all day then turn into a sex goddess at the drop of a hat. I have a lovely DH who does lots for me, is affectionate and loving. I have no issue shagging him with pleasure. Coincidence? I don't think so.

We have also perpetrated the myth that all men are gagging for it all the time and all women are frigid. What a narrow, stupid idea. As you say, things are more complicated than that.

Darkesteyes Sat 30-Mar-13 16:48:19

Agree Terry. It really makes me angry though. And its yet another reason why we need feminism.

I'll add that to my fucking enormous list of reasons.

they must have lost all self-respect, why else would u put ur self out there like that, no woman with any morals, respect for themselves and dignity would not spend there evening being a cock tease, I said though i don't blame the woman (20s) for this, it's entirely his fault.

Nincompoopery Sat 30-Mar-13 17:38:59

I've read this thread fully and throughout I have tried to look at this from a point of view where lap dancing is acceptable and from one where it isn't.
After considering this, for me personally (and this is just me) it wouldn't be a deal breaker and I will try to explain why. I trust that the club is reputable, with standards. I trust that my husband would have gone purely as a one off ( though an important fact here is that my husband would probably be dying from embarrassment during the whole dance). I also trust that my husband wouldn't be ' getting off on it'. Maybe I'm naive but in my situation I believe that my trust is founded.

So, two factors that I would base my decision on:
Was it a one off?
Did he get off on it?

A cheating aspect has been mentioned earlier in the thread and that is an element that i struggle to connect with lap dancing. A point here though is the closest I have come to lap dancing experience is when my Fil and Mil went to one out of curiosity. Apparently is started with a lap dance and ended with a lovely chat between mil and dancer about working conditions and world news.
Back to you though, from everything you have said this is an act the you have strong feelings about and as to what happens next? Only you can decide whether to make this situation permanent and for him to leave the family home. With two children though and (I'm assuming a happy, healthy relationship in all other areas) surely it is worth listening to him, allowing him the chance to make it up to you and in time perhaps you will have a clearer idea on whether you can forgive him and therefore you can be absolutely sure on any long term decision you make.

With a 2 year old and a newborn, understandably this is the last thing you need to be dealing with.

Thank you nincompoop, i guess thats a good way too look at it, maybe im just seeing negatives. How could uno for sure ur dh wouldn't enjoy watching her? because he said so? hes not going to come home and tell u about his fantastic experience, if he was that embarrassed her would leave?
would u really be able to sleep in the same bed, DTD and what not, knowing ur dh had just been straddled by a younger more glamorous woman with a big smile on his face. why on earth if u loved someone would u even want another woman near u!? sorry for all the questions but if u can help me answer these from a point of view of ur own as sometimes when ur mad u dont think rationally.

Nincompoopery Sat 30-Mar-13 18:02:44

It is easy for me to look at this objectively and without emoticon because I'm not in your situation. Only you know your husband and whether you can trust what he tells you. Believe me, my husband is very shy and would not dream of leaving mid dance for fear of ridicule by so called friends or heaven forbid if he offended the dancer (he is an unworldly 28yr old).
The closest I have been is when I found out 6 months before our wedding that he was texting a girl from our office late at night, whilst I was bed. I remember the anger I felt, the fury that not only was it someone I knew but someone that was so different from me.. Ie. lower morals etc. for me the texting and obvious emotional closeness was worse than if he had had a one night stand.
I ranted and raved.. Drove around for hours and let him stew in his own juices and effectively gave him time to think about exactly what he had jeopardised.
In the end I decided to let him stay, I decided that what we had was worth fighting for.
It did take me a long time to forgive completely and to feel close to him again. To answer your question on whether I could really know? I couldn't. There is no way for certain that I could 100% know for sure. With that being that case I had to decide whether what I didn't know wouldn't kill me rather than allowing the turmoil to eat me and my future up.

countrykitten Sat 30-Mar-13 19:27:53

Nincompoopery no way would I have forgiven that! I admit that I have extremely high standards and will not put up with shit from anyone and would not dish it out to anyone either. It's about respect - your 'dh to be' disrespected you and the OP's dh disrespected her. It's not good enough - why do women keep on putting up with it?

TiggyD Sat 30-Mar-13 19:44:50

"they must have lost all self-respect, why else would u put ur self out there like that, no woman with any morals, respect for themselves and dignity would not spend there evening being a cock tease"

<rant deleted>

You disagree with their job, don't understand them, fine, but you don't have to treat them like shit either.

ChairmanWow Sat 30-Mar-13 19:46:41

I also trust that my husband wouldn't be ' getting off on it

What would a man get from watching a woman wave her breasts and vagina in his face then? Intellectual stimulation? A really good belly laugh? Or a hard-on with some wank fodder in the bank for later? Sorry if that sounds blunt but I don't see what else a man expects to gain from having a naked woman grinding all over him. I do understand that some men might find it a bit seedy and off putting when they experience the reality, but when they made the decision to go to that club and pay for that woman what did they expect to get out of it?

I'm not sure I'd necessarily call it cheating. As I said up-thread it's the exploitation/objectification issue that bothers me more, but I can see how some women feel it might be including the OP and I don't see how guys can argue there was never intended to be a sexual element to it.

countrykitten Sat 30-Mar-13 20:00:48

It is so ludicrous for any man or woman to claim that there is no sexual element to a lapdance! It is delusional of women to think that their dh is not sitting there with a raging hard on and sheer deception if a man claims that he isn't!

Loislane78 Sat 30-Mar-13 20:07:47

everything sorry you are in this situation with a newborn and 2 yo sad

If it were me, I would have gone ape shit but I don't know if we'd be over ie. divorce, as it would be v out of character. If anything happened again though...

My DP went to a stag do in Dublin last year, ended up in one of these places and there were only a couple of them who didn't have lap dances (him included); its not really his scene luckily for me.

I don't buy into the peer pressure argument, all your DH had to say was no way guys, got a newborn at home and everything would go ballistic. Conversation over.

Does he have other behaviour/traits that make you think this is over or just this, and is it out of character.

Loislane78 Sat 30-Mar-13 20:09:14

When I say 'just', I don't mean it to sound like its nothing - cos clearly he's being a hugggge tosser.

countrykitten Sat 30-Mar-13 20:10:42

Yes, the peer pressure thing is a total red herring.

Nincompoopery Sat 30-Mar-13 20:24:32

It seems a lot of women live in a black or white world. Not saying thats a bad thing, I find myself constantly looking at a grey area which can be infuriating.
My DH is more than aware of how close he came to losing everything and that there are no more do overs, no more chances. That and the fact that as we now have a DD he has so much more to lose now.
It's not a case of whether one persons standards are perhaps higher than someone else's, but more that they have different priorities, different outlooks on circumstances / events. What may be forgivable to one person may not be to another. It is an individuals feelings and experiences and hopes/desires that will ultimately set their boundaries. Only the OP can decide whether she can eventually forgive this and I don't think that answer is going to come in the next few hours, days or even weeks.
As for the sexual element, imagine reversing roles and having a woman up on stage with a stripper, perhaps a hen night (not my thing personally) by some comments here are we to assume that as soon as she comes off stage she's happy that she's got her 'wank fodder in the bank for later'?

This was way out of character, maybe why i'm so hurt? so shocked, and feel as though i don't no him at all. It is a sexual intimate thing, it wasn't a laugh on a stag or anything i don't even think he was that drunk, not that that is an excuse, ive been out with the girls and been rotten and asked back to hotels, for my number, for a dance etc and have said No every time, wouldn't even think of it, he's clearly thinking with his Penis!!

RaspberryRuffle Sat 30-Mar-13 22:28:11

Thank you everything for now clarifying that the 'young girl' who performed the lap dance was a woman in her 20s. And for judging the moral character of her and her colleagues - it is not something I would choose to do for a living but if someone wants to make decent money doing a job she doesn't mind or even enjoys then who is anyone else to judge her. Lapdancers must have a relatively short shelf life compared to other jobs as there's a reason people are paying to look at you dance (physical appearance), but for many that's all it is, a dance. It is incorrect to say there is no difference between this and prostitution.

I hope you and DH can work through this, get some relationship counselling at least before giving up on the two of you as a couple and as a family.

I also hope you can be a bit less judgemental towards the dancers and their loose morals...but if only one of the two happens for your sake the first.

Nincompoopery Sat 30-Mar-13 22:37:35

everything if this is out of character then this must be so hard for you to even attempt to get your head around. You may never get the answers that you want or deserve but I think you do need to talk to him before yo make any decisions. At least think about the questions you need answering, think about his answers and then maybe you will be clearer on your next step.

Thanks raspberry. Ive asked alot of questions and the more i find out the more i hurt. asking details is the worst.

RaspberryRuffle Sun 31-Mar-13 13:34:58

everything, the details will make it worse because you probably can picture the scene more. If it is really out of character it sounds like the rest of the time you and DH have a great relationship and 2 DC together. By now your DH must have a good idea of the hurt he has caused you, try looking at his reaction to this. The incident can't be undone now, so what assurances can he give you, and I don't mean flowers and chocs...can he see your reasoning. You know him, is he genuinely sorry about hurting you? It just sounds like up to now things have been good so don't. 'automatically' think this is the end. I don't mean you should be a doormat either, just weigh up everything in your own time.

Nincompoopery Sun 31-Mar-13 14:22:18

Raspberry exactly what you said. Deciding to work through this will, in some ways, be the hardest option but taking this option certainly does not mean that you are a doormat.

threesypeesy Sun 31-Mar-13 14:26:13

Nothing that to me isn't a big deal I've been to a few with my dh. The girls are lovely and if its a high end club nothing untoward goes on.

I could never end a relationship over something like this and i know others clearly disagree but imo YABU its only a dance you see worse going actual nightclubs

chris481 Sun 31-Mar-13 14:33:28

"Stop derailing the thread with bollocks about how women don't want sex."

(This reply is also to the various other people who were offended.) I actually want to believe the opposite, could someone post a link to proper research that will settle this?

ChairmanWow Sun 31-Mar-13 14:40:07

threesy this thread isn't about you, it's about the damage the OP has had done to her relationship by her partner and her feelings.

Another one calling them 'girls' though. What a coincidence. Anyone would think there were sex industry apologists lurking round the place hmm.

everything it sounds like you're starting to think this through and there was been some really good advice. I guess once you've processed what this means to you you can start to work it through with him. Not easy with a newborn and a toddler. Hope you're getting some RL support too. thanks

threesypeesy Sun 31-Mar-13 14:53:02

I never said it was i was like everywhere poster giving MY opinion that its not something that is a) a big deal, b) not worth throwing a relationship away for. They are girls,females,women whatever word you wish to use that choose to do it as a job and men and women go and watch no harm in it

Darkesteyes Sun 31-Mar-13 15:22:17

cgris did you not read my link. its only my situation and i know its only one persons experience but its not a bloody fairy tale. it happens to be true.

OloeufiaMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 31-Mar-13 15:27:32

Hello OP
Do let us know if you'd like us to move this thread to relationships won't you?

Darkesteyes Sun 31-Mar-13 15:42:26

chris if women dont want sex how do you explain the popularity of womens erotic fiction.

And i dont mean Fifty Shades. i like the Black Lace books. There are also classics like the Story of O which have been around for many years.

Women just don't want sex with chris481

chris481 Sun 31-Mar-13 17:37:57

Darkesteyes, I read the linked article, it doesn't contradict anything I believe. Even if there is a general mismatch between male and female populations, that says nothing about the sex drive of any particular woman, nor does it mean that it can't be the woman who is the frustrated one in a particular relationship.

The question is if the proportion of women who don't want sex with their partner is very different from the proportion of men. I don't have a number for men, but I have some reason to believe the proportion is as high as 50% for the women I mentioned (i.e. those over 30 who have been in a relationship for at least four years.) If that statistic is true, and the equivalent statistic is very different for men (which I assume but I don't know) then it means that a large number of people are destined to be disappointed in their relationships.

I have googled since posting previously and the only thing I found was a reference to a Canadian study that shows women's interest in sex with their partner decreases steadily with time, but men's doesn't. (Again, this is on average, so what won't be true for all women/men.)

I now think I remember that the Dutch academic that I quoted may also have been talking about women's desire to have sex with their current partner, not necessarily their sex drive in general, so I may have misrepresented her originally.

chris481 Sun 31-Mar-13 17:43:39

Just to clarify, the Canadian study said that women's interest decreased with length of relationship, not age. (Am not regretting not saving the link.)

chris481 Sun 31-Mar-13 17:45:05

Am regretting.

MooMooSkit Sun 31-Mar-13 17:58:01

Women just don't want sex with chris481 grin

chris481 Sun 31-Mar-13 18:04:36

It was unkind the first time someone said it, using bold is just cruel. sad

niceguy2 Sun 31-Mar-13 18:27:54

Funny isn't it? Man goes to strip club with mates and that is akin to cheating and a dealbreaker.

Women go out on night out (eg. hen night) and there's a male stripper gyrating his bits around and that's just girls having fun & letting their hair down.

Men getting a lapdance can't touch yet women can rub baby oil etc in and that's ok. Just a giggle.

Women can create groups like "Women's wankbank" on Facebook and post images on there for a bit of fun but if a man does the same then he's objectifying women.

Hypocrisy is a wonderful thing.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 31-Mar-13 18:32:22

Chris - you can expect to be ridiculed when you continue to goad on a thread with subject matter unrelated to what you are posting.

Op, what has your H said about his reasons / motivation for not only entering a strip club but actually paying a woman to dance naked for him while you are sat at home with a new baby?
I don't know which is more unacceptable tbh - him actively choosing to do what he did, or simply being led like a sheep by the others because he hadn't got the moral courage and emotional intelligence to say no.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 31-Mar-13 18:39:57

If you really can't see the difference niceguy you must be a bit dim.

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 18:54:29

This thread isn't debating the rights and wrongs of strippers though is it?
The op does not-for whatever reason- like the idea of her husband going to one and paying family money to do so.
That is the only issue.
It's about boundaries within relationships.
Just because someone find that acceptable it doesn't mean everyone can.
Oh yes btw. Make strippers mostly preform in crappy venues that involve a comedian and chicken in a basket all for about a fiver.
Lap dancing clubs tend to cost more especially if you choose to pay for extras (can't get those in the community centre ladies night).and the drinks are pricey.
Do for a start there's a big difference in cost alone.

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 18:57:53

Or even perform!!!

thezebrawearspurple Sun 31-Mar-13 19:00:10

they must have lost all self-respect, why else would u put ur self out there like that, no woman with any morals, respect for themselves and dignity would not spend there evening being a cock tease

I have a couple friends who put themselves through university by stripping, they have a lot of self respect, dignity and morals. As intelligent young women they chose to do a rather unpleasant job for a lot of money so that they could study and get to where they are today.

Never having to make that choice or not being in a position to do it in the first place does not make another woman better than them.

Lessthanaballpark Sun 31-Mar-13 19:36:09

But NiceGuy, OP hasn't done any of those things has she? So why are you banging on about hypocrisy? And how do you know that those women who happily pay for male strippers are the same ones forbidding their men from paying for female strippers?

Women aren't a monolith you know! We're not responsible for each others opinions.

Very poor logic.

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 19:48:49

Nice guy always pops up on stripper threads to raise the tired old comparison of make strippers. Tbh it's all pretty seedy to have to get all excited about seeing someone else's sweaty genitalia especially if you know your partner would be offended by doing it.

EyesWallowsPunk Sun 31-Mar-13 20:00:26

Absolutely what Niceguy said.

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 20:07:33

It's only hypocrisy if you partake if those things yourself though.
Of course you can't moan about your man going to strip clubs if you go to see male strippers and vice versa but the op has just given birth I doubt if she's been to see strippers of late.

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 20:08:37

You shouldn't be expected to compromise on what you find acceptable just cos Mary up the road goes to watch the chippendales.

MooMooSkit Sun 31-Mar-13 20:19:11

I don't often get insulting but niceguy, you must be a bit slow to not see the difference.

whosiwhatsit Sun 31-Mar-13 20:31:02

Agree with you 100%, thezebra.

EyesWallowsPunk Sun 31-Mar-13 20:32:27

Let's forget hypocrisy. The point is you wouldn't get a man going on to a forum screaming blue murder that his wife paid twenty quid to go and watch male strippers. He wouldn't give a shit and he certainly wouldn't worry that the male strippers were being 'exploited for money'. Why do women feel that they have the monopoly on sexual exploitation? It really fucking bugs me.

EyesWallowsPunk Sun 31-Mar-13 20:35:00

...and for all the women on here who feel that lapdancing is dirty and degrading, I take it you have never had sex with your husband when you have not wanted to; have never swallowed when it actually disgusted you and have never faked an orgasm. All of these behaviours are degrading, no?

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 21:32:18

Gosh. I've never ever done any of those things with dh never!
And if you have then it explains your point of view nicely.
A man pleaser hmm

Lessthanaballpark Sun 31-Mar-13 21:37:58

FWIW Eyes, OP's DH did say that if she had done the reverse it would have been a dealbreaker, so that kind of squashes your point really ...

Darkesteyes Sun 31-Mar-13 21:42:44

Which proves that OPs DH is the hypocrite of the piece.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 31-Mar-13 22:06:27

Eye-swallow-spunk hmm , I think you have an agenda here , which other forum have you slithered from? Or are you just a goady fucker?

I've been with my husband 30 years - never had sex I didn't want, "swallowing" doesn't disgust me , why would it? Never faked an orgasm either.
Lap dancing clubs are degrading and exploitative and if you don't understand the difference between them and something like the Chippendales you are also a bit dim. Tacky and unappealing as male strip shows are, women are not paying for individual lap dances with them, there are no clubs purely for women to go and have the sort of experience that a LDC offers to men.

EyesWallowsPunk Sun 31-Mar-13 22:46:39

Ha! Ha! 95% of women have faked orgasm at some point. The other 5% are lying. Cream, what's wrong with being a man-pleaser? Bela, I have no agenda; I am prefectly entitled to join in any thread I choose, no? I am new to mumsnet though, does this disqualify me from having an opinion? What is a 'goady fucker' and why must I have 'slithered' from anywhere? What a nasty woman you sound.

Lapdancing clubs allow women to make lots of money from men whose fantasies have not changed throughout the ages. There is an argument that it is the men who are being exploited. A proper lapdancing club will not allow touching and will fire any dancer who allows it and will eject any bloke who tries it. I've been to male strip do's and the women are a fucking disgrace, clawing and hollering like sweating pigs. However, clubs dedicated to women wanting private dances from men do not exist because this is not what we actually crave from men is it? This isn't how we are programmed.

EyesWallowsPunk Sun 31-Mar-13 22:51:14

I think it's a disgrace that there are women who would take the moral high ground against another woman for lapdancing by calling her 'degrading'. You know nothing about the lives or aspirations of such women.

formicaqueen Sun 31-Mar-13 22:54:12

Leave it a few days/weeks and then start talking. He will have learn a huge lesson from this and i would i your shoes give him a second chance (once you have calmed down)

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 22:54:44

eyes would you care to link us all to the study that you got those statistics from please?
Rather odd to start calling people liars when new to a thread. I can assure you that I have and never will have sex with anyone I don't want to and have certainly never needed to fake an orgasm.
To be honest I think you are either a goady fucker or possibly a man or maybe just a very young inexperienced person who has no idea about relationships or at least healthy ones.
There is plenty wrong with being a man pleaser actually if it means having unwanted sex swallowing stuff you find repulsive and pretending you are sexually satisfied when you are not.
I pity you actually.

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 22:56:13

Your comments regarding the sex industry are unfounded and untrue. Please do your research before making sweeping statements.

EyesWallowsPunk Sun 31-Mar-13 23:31:42

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

DH came around today to bring Easter things for DD/DS, he also brought a box of chocolates for me, and sent a message after leaving " you looked very nice today" then other long messages saying how much he was going to show me how sorry he was, and what a fool he had been. I am definitely making him suffer, he hurt me so much, and broke my trust. nothing is set on what i will do ultimately but he is trying! and he said it gave him the kick up the ass he needed to see what he has and loosing it made him realise.

He sounds like a good 'un that made a really stupid decision and regrets it.

i thought he was a gooden, he's always been loyal!

I asked him today, would he class what happened as cheating, and he said yes! I also class it as that!

Creameggkr Sun 31-Mar-13 23:59:55

Massive assumptions there eyes. How can you assume so much based on my opinions being different from yours?
Your views on a sexual relationship are outdated and unhealthy and good luck on mums net because the majority of women on here would disagree and be very offended by your views on a womans duty to please her man even if that means doing something they dislike.
You sound very bitter.
Don't forget we can read people's previous posts on other threads.
I have a very happy marriage and life thank you.
My husband and I have five beautiful children and a wonderful home.
I am far from an old hag my dear and I've certainly not had to achieve any of that by faking my enjoyment of sex or doing anything I'm not comfortable with.
What a sad and confused woman you sound.
I hope you get what you want from life soon so that you can lose some of your bitterness.

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 00:01:42

Oh I just showed my husband your posts and he said you are obviously mental
HTH grin

EyesWallowsPunk you're a bit of a strange one aren't you? Why on earth would any woman have sex when she doesn't want too? Unless she is forced/pressured into it, in which case it's a completely different scenario and you're talking about abuse. As far as swallowing is concerned, each to their own really, it comes down to personal preference. And why would any woman fake an orgasm when she can have a real one? [bconfused] Isn't that just a little silly? I wouldn't want sex with a man who needed to have his ego stroked by me faking it! I would want him to bloody well give me an orgasm! [bhmm]

smiley failure there

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 00:04:41

everything I'm glad hrs trying hard and making you feel a bit better.
He is doing all the right things isn't he?
Hope you get some sleep x

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 00:06:31

Careful deadwoman she'll be calling you names soon and pitying your poor husband grin

Yeah Cream, guess he is. He's far from forgiven, but if he can show me that he is truly sorry, which i believe he is, but he can suffer for a while, ino i sound harsh probably, but I could see today that he genuinely believed that was it for us, and it hurt him, and i want him to really really see what he's lost/almost lost. I am coming round to the idea of working through it.

grovel Mon 01-Apr-13 00:32:36

I have been to a lap-dancing club with my DH (his first time too). We were in New Orleans. DH was at a conference and had asked me to come along because he was meeting a German client who was bringing his wife. The client was close to spending $MM with DH's company. DH's team had worked really hard to win the business.

We went out for a lovely dinner (paid for by DH's company). "Klaus" insisted that he buy us a nightcap on our way back to the hotel. He took us to a lap-dancing place. His wife was completely calm about this. My DH gave me a quizzical look (suggesting he was ready to say "no"). I shrugged (half revolted/half intrigued).
I suppose it was a "classy" place. Decorated like a "Gentleman's Club" (studded leather armchairs, ridiculous faux bookshelves etc).

All I can say is that the ambience was not erotic. It's the softest of soft porn. Very pretty girls got (most) of their kit off for money. No touching.

When I talked to DH back at the hotel he said it was embarrassing. "It's not like they fancied me".

It's rubbish but not the end of the world.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 01:03:53

It does nothing to further the equality of women when the term 'gentlemen's club' conjures up a vision of leather furniture, fake bookshelves and women paid to walk around, scantily clad, giving tinkly laughs and rapt attention to the (mostly) male punters, and dance provocatively and almost naked, for a fee.

Lessthanaballpark Mon 01-Apr-13 01:09:42

It's just bizarre. Why would you want to pay someone to wiggle their bits in front of you? When you know that they wouldn't be doing it if you weren't paying? I'd feel such a loser.

bp300 Mon 01-Apr-13 02:48:24

A lot of people on here are delusional if they believe their partners have never been to or wouldn't visit a strip club. Most would not choose to visit a strip club under normal circumstances but I have been to many stag dos over the years and many of them ended in a strip club. I have never ever come across a man who has refused to go to a strip club or have a private dance because their partner would not allow it, it just doesn't happen.

Leavenheath Mon 01-Apr-13 04:24:41

Here's one for you then.

We've had family over for Easter and got reminiscing. BIL was saying that DH could never be persuaded to go in a sex club on their many stag nights together, not because of my views but because of his. He just doesn't agree with them and has always said so to anyone when this topic's come up. A lot of his mates and even BIL now feel the same so it sounds like DH has managed to persuade them all round to his way of thinking. Strong man, my DH.

ChairmanWow Mon 01-Apr-13 06:03:32

bp bringing in the old 'all men do it and you don't understand them* routine there. If it wasn't disrespectful to the OP I'd get a bullshit bingo card going to see what other bollocks people can come up with. Has anyone mentioned the one where it's actually empowering for women to be paid to flash their parts in men's faces yet? Just wondering.

Sorry everything. It sounds like your partner is really trying to make amends though. He seems to be taking on board how seriously you take this with his acknowledgment of cheating. It's early days but these at least look like good signs. He clearly loves you very much and is doing some very serious thinking about how deeply he has fucked up. Early days, but I hope you're feeling better about things.

CheerfulYank Mon 01-Apr-13 06:29:24

I'd be livid.

It's cheating. If someone rubbed their breasts n bits all over my DH with his encouragement at a party, it would definitely be cheating, so why is it different since money's changed hands. Not to mention that he'd be furious if I were all over some guy...

Also I don't believe a person's sexuality should be for sale. Ever.

Sausageeggbacon Mon 01-Apr-13 08:06:22

Wow this thread gave me a laugh, OP you know that nowadays the dancers can't come within 3 feet of the customer and no physical contact is allowed. If it happens the clubs could lose their license and I bet they will put money first and insist the girls don't touch. But if you are uncomfortable with it leave the bastard.

BelaLugosisShed Mon 01-Apr-13 08:24:06

"I have never ever come across a man who has refused to go to a strip club or have a private dance because their partner would not allow it, it just doesn't happen".
Well you'd be very wrong then.
My DH hasn't ever been to a strip club and in fact refused to take customers to one when he was responsible for wining and dining them, not because I "would not allow it" but because he thinks they are awful places that exploit women and the stupid , gullible men who frequent them.
On the very rare occasion that a group of people he's been on a night out with have gone to one, he's said No thanks, not for me, and come home, it's not difficult to say no if you are a mature adult with half a brain.

Nincompoopery Mon 01-Apr-13 08:44:33

Everything it really does sound as though he's trying and I hope this trying will not stop here. You sound a lot more settled today than yesterday, maybe you are getting a few things straight in your head?
Bit difficult to see your update though as this thread appears to be focused more now on people's own opinions of the industry and who is right / wrong as opposed to answering your question. Shame.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 09:20:19

Eye what a scarily fucked up person you are. Faking orgasms is not normal (why on earth would you?) and I can happily state that I have never 'submitted' to sex at my husband's 'request' when I didn't want to. Why would I? You clearly have very many problems and I hope that you get some help.

Btw - calling sane people 'hags' when they disagree with your bizarre and screwed up view of sex is just really fucking sad and pathetic.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 09:22:02

And here's another dh who is not interested in this shit form of sexual 'entertainment' because he has respect for women and a brain.

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 09:28:38

Neither is mine country but then again we are probably deluded aren't we?
Thanks for the vote of sanity btw grin

RatPants Mon 01-Apr-13 09:35:29

On a personal level, it blurs the boundaries of faithfulness for me. If my husband decided to start going to strip clubs it would make me think less of him and less of our relationship and the next time an attractive man paid me attention on a night out I might feel less inclined to tell him where to go. It'd be quite a damaging thing for us I think. It starts you off down a road there is no need to go down.

VitoCorleone Mon 01-Apr-13 09:36:31

It would be a dealbreaker for me too.

I remember reading a thread a while back, think it was on MN, where the OPs DP had been playing poker and there was naked strippers serving drinks all night etc (cant remember the exact details) i read the thread out to my DP who regularly has poker nights with his friends, so he joked "ooh might have a word with the lads about that hahaha"

So i said "thats fine, im gonna arrange a night with the girls and have naked butlers serving us pineapple rings off their massive dicks"

That soon wiped the stupid smile off his face.

Stupid jokes aside, my DP knows that if anything like this happened he would be out, i would never forgive it, as far as im concerned if he wants to get sexual with other women then he can go and be single then he can do what he wants.

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 10:25:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 10:30:45

Who was it who told me my posts can be followed on other threads? Doh, yes, I know. Who gives a shit? Is multiple thread occupancy against the talk guidelines? Fucking hell, woman.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 10:38:49

Hahaha! You are either barking mad or a total wind up merchant.

I don't fake orgasms as it would be rather stupid ( not to say dishonest and misleading ) to do so. I am hazarding a guess that most well balanced,intelligent women don't either. BTW - you are not coming across as either well balanced or intelligent.

I don't claim to have a 'perfect' sex life (no one on this thread has claimed to have this either) and I don't think that I am 'seriously fucked up' just because I won't lie to my husband. It is a strange notion that a women should be 'kind' and fake an orgasm isn't it? Have a little think about it.

You sound so bitter and angry and envious of others' happiness - is it your time in the sex industry that has made you this way?

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 10:47:42

I am hardly envious of the women on this thread, Country who are deluded about their husbands' predilections for naked female bodies.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 10:53:15

EyesWallow - I wasn't going to answer you directly as I have read your other threads too - and you clearly have issues going on in your life.

But just so you know - all women do not fake orgasms. I remember having a conversation (actually, lots of conversations!) with friends about faking orgasms at university - so late teens/early 20's.

We must have been an enlightened lot, obviously, because although a couple did admit that they'd faked it, we all ended up agreeing that women should never ever fake orgasms - because sex is a two-way street, and women should be equal participants. It's not about just pleasing the man. And because you're deceiving the person you're having sex with - and that's just stupid.

I have honestly never faked an orgasm.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 10:53:23

Do you really credit all men with such little intelligence?

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 10:55:57

Ah - did not realise that this poster has issues (well, I can see that there is something amiss due to the aggression and weird ideas about sex).

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 10:57:35

Hahaha. It was me who told you that.
Your other posts illustrate your crassness nicely as does your user name.
I also don't believe you worked in the industry as you drip fed that later rather than announce it immediately.
You sound very damaged sexually on some way particularly in your condemnation of any woman who disagrees with you.
Mumsnet can be a very supportive and useful place and its a long time since I've come across anyone so unnecessarily aggressive on here.
If I were you I'd read more on here with an open mind and accept that other people are entitled to their opinions and just because they don't agree with yours does not make them lists or deluded.

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 10:59:36

Sorry idiots not lists ha ha

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 11:00:43

Hmmm - looked but can't find any 'issues'. Maybe she is just a very, unhappy angry person.

I second the very sensible words of Creameggkr

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 11:00:59

bp300 - all men go to strip clubs is as stupid a statement to make as Eye's all women fake orgasms.

My dh didn't go into a strip club on a friend's stag night in Amsterdam (I've told this story before on MN) - he and 2 other friends out of a group of about 10 stayed in a coffee shop smoking while the others went in.

I know it's true because of the furore it caused - nearly broke up a group of friends of 10 years standing, and they were accused of 'betraying the stag' hmm But I'm glad they stood their ground.

It's really quite simple. Some men value women as their equals in society and are not interested in watching women who are only talking to them, taking their clothes off and dancing for them, because they are being paid.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 11:01:25

Apart from the 'list' bit grin

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 11:03:51

It's really quite simple. Some men value women as their equals in society and are not interested in watching women who are only talking to them, taking their clothes off and dancing for them, because they are being paid.


And I wish that more women understood that this is how decent men are/think.

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 11:10:07

Yes so do I. I have three sons an ex dh a dh a brother a bil a father a fil and many make friends NONE OF WHOM GO TO STRIP CLUBS.
I think it's such a shame that some people's only opinions of men are so low and their opinion of women who don't wasn't their partners going to them are clingy or insecure or frigid.
It simply doesn't work like that.
My dh Stood his ground and didn't go to a stag do because of what they had planned.

Tolly81 Mon 01-Apr-13 11:12:55

bp300 of course you've never met a man who wouldn't go to a strip club - you only hang out with other losers people like you.
Eyes I'm not sure how your contributions are helpful to the OP. I don't believe it is true that every man who's wife has just borne their baby is fantasizing about other naked women. Maybe I'm naive, I don't really care but it is ridiculous and frankly condescending to suggest that all men behave in the same way when put in a situation such as this. Basically you really believe that there isn't a man that walks the planet who can't control themselves? Sad. You're entitled to your opinion of course but this thread is about the OP asking for advice on what she should do in the aftermath of being upset about this happening.
everything fwiw I would also be distraught and would certainly view this as disloyalty. I would feel even worse and more vulnerable if I had recently given birth. It sounds like he is very regretful though. I agree with pps though that have suggested letting him back home but not sharing a bed - aside from anything else he should be helping you with the baby, you must be exhausted. He should also have time to bond with the baby, regardless of whether or not you manage to work through this. Do you feel ready yet to speak to him about it? It may seem odd but sometimes writing how you feel down in a letter can help, as you might get too emotional to say it. It can be quite cathartic as well to write your feelings down. It might also be helpful to spend some time thinking about your relationship as a whole, setting some ground rules, and thinking about the positive things about your relationship, as that might help you work through this. I really feel for you - my emotions were all over the place post-delivery, this is not what you need at all flowers

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 11:34:16

By 'issues' you presumably mean that I am struggling to conceive my first child. Go to the conception threads and you will find many women who are having lots and lots of sex in their quest to have a baby and who are not necessarily enjoying the experience. It can be boring, stressful, unsexy and monotonous. It is often clinical. Do not judge women who, for whatever reason, deem it kinder to occasionally fake an orgasm when things are not going right and their partner is increasingly frustrated or upset at his performance.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 11:36:46

Right - so don't project your issues on to another clearly unrelated thread.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 11:41:58

Yes, quite, countrykitten. Eyes has been unnecessarily aggressive on here - insulting other women, calling them hags and liars.

Eyes, remember that there is an OP behind this thread who is also upset and frustrated. And who was not posting about faking orgasms hmm

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 11:54:18

Well I don't think anyone in here would hold that against you eyes I personally was referring to some of what you posted on the thread, the content of which was pretty crass and a preoccupation with swallowing spunk for some reason!
Many if us have suffered mc or TTC problems that's what leads people here. There are many of life's issues on here most of which posters receive amazing support for. Along with that though comes lots of strong experienced and opinionated women. That is what makes mn so diverse.
When those opinions are voiced its fine to disagree but not fine to launch into ignorant attacks on people.
When you called me names and pitied my husband rubbishing our relationship you didn't even know if I had one or was a widow or even a lesbian. That's why it's just not the right thing to do.
Many new posters make the same mistake but its not the best way to get the most from mn.
In the many years I've been on here I've had my views challenged (and changed) and met some amazing people.
I hope that by just listening and even debating other people's opinions you will love mn like many if us do but when you start name calling it makes you sound ridiculous and your opinions won't receive the co side ration you'd like them to.

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 11:56:06

Sorry the consideration (bloody I phone)

I really do wish you all the best though.

MrsSpagBol Mon 01-Apr-13 12:08:45



SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 11:41:58
Yes, quite, countrykitten. Eyes has been unnecessarily aggressive on here - insulting other women, calling them hags and liars.

Eyes, remember that there is an OP behind this thread who is also upset and frustrated. And who was not posting about faking orgasms "

I can't really fathom why you have chosen to babble on and on and on about fake orgasms and the sex industry and then attack anyone who disagrees with your sweeping generalisations! It is completely off topic, and not what the OP posted about!!

Start your own thread elsewhere since you seem to have so many issues. And preferably take bp300 with you while you are at it.

Your unnecessary aggression and rudeness is cluttering up the OP's post about an issue that is very serious for her.

FucktidiaBollockberry Mon 01-Apr-13 13:00:01

I obviously live in a parallel universe.

I don't believe there is a single time in life where it is "appropriate" (appropriate forsooth!) to fake an orgasm.

I've shagged some idiots in my time but I didn't ever feel the need to treat them like punters. I've had a bit more respect for them than that.

And yes I've done the shagging every day thing too

FucktidiaBollockberry Mon 01-Apr-13 13:03:12

Sorry, I mean shagging every day to conceive - the duty shag.

My partner didn't become an infantalised idiot just because the primary purpose of the shagging was conception

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 13:24:00

A good point well made but I suspect that Eye won't share your pov.

ll31 Mon 01-Apr-13 14:10:09

Op can understand your disgust etc but don't get the 'I'll make him suffer' attitude tbh, sounds v soap opera ish ...

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 14:25:28

What would you suggest then 1132? Op has asked for suggestions and advice

CheerfulYank Mon 01-Apr-13 14:39:54

I never fake it...why would I? confused

I usually never have orgasm ishoos but now (I'm 32 weeks pregnant) I do. It's fine! DH and I both know it's temporary and I still want to have sex with him; it still feels good, just not, you know...orgasmically good. smile Why would I pretend? Not to mention he'd know if I did, since my uterus contracts into what feels like a big rock on the rare occasions I do get there!

stopprocrastinating Mon 01-Apr-13 14:43:44

Th money wasted would bother me, the dance less so, definitely not a deal breaker.

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 16:18:13

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Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 16:36:04

Good luck then eyes with that much anger and hatred in your mind you will need it both in life and on this forum.

Creameggkr Mon 01-Apr-13 16:38:06

Oh yes and we aren't fishwives we are vipers alright?

FucktidiaBollockberry Mon 01-Apr-13 16:46:59

Hate to break it to you, but some of us never, ever fake orgasms.

Seriously, never.

I can't imagine why I would ever want to, I don't sleep with sort of men who wd be grateful to me for that either. I sleep with adult men. confused

Your insistence that women you have never met, whose lives you know nothing about, definitely do fake orgasms when they're telling you they don't, just sounds a bit mad tbh. If you desperately want to fake orgasms all over the place, that's your choice. But to insist that all other women definitely do that too, does make you sound like you've got "ishoos". And also you sound a lot more uptight than the women you're insulting by calling us uptight - it ain't me faking it, baby.

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 17:06:13

I never said 'all women fake orgasms'. I just know that lots and lots of women have faked an orgasm at some point in their lives. Obviously mumsnet women are a separate species.

Swallowing/anal/blowjobs: some women do it but don't really like it. Are they 'victims'? Are they 'degraded'?

CheerfulYank Mon 01-Apr-13 17:07:38

Middle class fishwives! <dies> Hahahhahahahaha! grin

I'm saying again, I do not fake it. No reason to. And again, right now DH would certainly know if I did!

CheerfulYank Mon 01-Apr-13 17:08:30

If you absolutely despise swallowing/anal but feel like you "must" do it, then yes I feel that is degrading.

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 17:29:11

Did I say 'despise'?

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 17:32:03

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 17:33:30

You are also clearly very insecure and full of self loathing for some reason. Sad.

CheerfulYank Mon 01-Apr-13 17:38:30

No, I used the word despise to illustrate when I feel it would be degrading.

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 17:51:24

Ha! Ha! Countrykitten, I have just read the Dominic West thread where you appeared (yet again) as Eternally Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells. I am sorry I have forced you to read the words 'anal, 'swallow' and 'blowjob'. I now fully understand your horror at my grotesqueness <snorts>

BelaLugosisShed Mon 01-Apr-13 18:06:34

What on earth is your problem Eye?
FYI, I'm very much working class and I know exactly "how much porn my husband is watching", which is none.
No idea of the vagaries of relationships ? confused I've been married for nearly 30 years you daft mare.

Go on then, tell me how deluded I am and that all men are porn users blah blah blah - you think we haven't heard it all before on here from people who can't imagine a man who isn't a slave to his cock.

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 18:06:42

eyes why are you so fixated on Anal swallowing and blow jobs.
At risk of upsetting country kitten grin I absolutely love giving blow jobs it's something about the power I think but I do it because I like it anf swallow if I wish or spit if I've had a big tea grin
As for anal sex many women do enjoy it (check out the numerous bumsex threads on here) I have myself enjoyed it in the past but having only recently had a baby (despite being an old hag) that is a thing of the past as you will hopefully understand one day.
It would appear to the reader that it is indeed you who does sexual acts despite not enjoying it and you who fakes orgasms to please your partner.
That's fine but what an earth gives the the right to tell grown women what we do or make off guesses as to our social status and personas.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 18:21:00

Dominic West? What thread is this? Think you have me mixed up with someone else.

Not sure why you have an obsession with anal sex (not my cup of tea tbh but each to their own) and blow jobs (very much my cup of tea as it happens but none of your fucking business in any case) and why you think that repeatedly saying these things is somehow shocking!

You remind me very much of some of the teenagers I teach who say things for effect and then keep on saying them when they don't quite have the effect they wanted. You are becoming grotesque because you are hell bent on trying to offend and it's a bit silly.

Off to see who Dominic West is....

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 18:23:27

Ah yes got and remember now - I thought it was sexist and a bit tacky to say you would 'give him a go' and pointed out that if a man said that about a woman it would be deemed very offensive.

Not sure how that makes me an outraged middle class hag....

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 18:26:38

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EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 18:26:40

I had to learn to enjoy swallowing, Ledkr, because the taste of semen is not pleasant. I had to learn to enjoy anal sex, too, because it fucking hurts having a penis up your bum. My point is that not everything we do as women is thoroughly enjoyable all the time but that doesn't mean we are in any way being victimised if we indulge in those things. I really cannot understand why some of you are determined to paint me as a victim of abuse.

Bela, if you have been married for 30 years, believe me, your hubby's watching porn grin

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 18:29:48

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countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 18:31:58

Ledkr my apologies...but can't I be both? Uptight hag has such a ring to it....

Eyes your comment to Bela is horrible. Why does other people's happiness upset you so much? Why are you so bitter?

Gossipmonster Mon 01-Apr-13 18:33:40

Thought it was very bad form to bring up another thread on a separate thread? hmm.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 18:34:05

Eyes don't make assumptions about my sex life as you know NOTHING about it and just discussing it with someone like you defiles it.

What is your problem?

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 18:44:09

Because eyes you clearly do have opinions on female sexuality and roles which aren't really the norm and demonstrate that you feel you have to put up and shut up just to please your man which is very sad.
You "learned" to enjoy stuff so you could please your man? That's very disturbing.
For a grown woman your attacks on others are very immature.
To suggest that if you are married a long time then your husband wil inevitably look at porn is a very teenage thing to say.
To think that all men look at porn is also something if expect from a younger person with limited experience of men.
I know for a fact my dh doesn't look at porn because I could care less if he did so he doesn't need to hide it from me. Despite being such an uptight hag we have a very close and satisfying relationship and I certainly don't fake enjoyment for anything and neither does he and I certainly am not repulsed by his taste hmm

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 18:49:59

Did you notice you had a post deleted btw?
I didn't and neither did anyone else.
That's cos you're rude that is and we are not grin

BelaLugosisShed Mon 01-Apr-13 18:50:43

You have a very disturbing view of sex and in particular, female sexuality Eye.
Nobody should have to endure something they find unpleasant (sexually) , men don't die if they don't get deepthroated or anal sex you know, no decent man would want his partner to do something she doesn't enjoy, especially if it's physically painful.

P.s. if semen tastes unpleasant then it's a dietary issue.

Your spiteful dig at me is only showing your own ignorance btw.

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 01-Apr-13 18:52:53


Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 18:55:44

Who's that to Olivia? Surely not I ?

Tolly81 Mon 01-Apr-13 19:01:18

Eyes what is this about? Why are you hijacking someone else's thread? I've sat and read all of this thread I think and can't really understand why you think your experiences of faking orgasms, anal sex or blowjobs are in any way relevant or helpful to the OP. By all means start your own thread about how uptight we all are, how much porn our DHs are reading, how many orgasms you've faked today, etc etc etc ad nauseam but give it a rest on this one will you? And you are being needlessly rude and unpleasant to people you know absolutely nothing about.
OP - hope you're doing ok. I assume you may have abandoned this thread as its been a while since this has been on topic but if you're still reading please send an update.

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 19:31:56

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ChairmanWow Mon 01-Apr-13 19:32:53

They're not tolly. Eyes clearly has a lot of problems with other women, mainly it seems other mens' wives. We are, after all, the competition. Better to think of us as ugly, bitter and sexless than the women our partners chose to be with and enjoy having sex with. We also of course have the power to influence our partners' decisions about whether to visit strip clubs because of the consequences. I can see how sex workers might feel threatened by that. We take their trade away, give it for free and do it with feeling. What stripper could compete with that where there is a good man involved? As for the low view of men, well, I would bet dealing with lowlives is an occupational hazard and would skew anyone's view of the male gender.

I think eyes demonstrates a misogynist attitude which runs right through the sex industry and sadly women working within it are drawn in too.

I hadn't intended to dwell on that so much actually. Just came back to see how everything is feeling and to say as a fellow mum to a newborn and toddler, hang in there. Lots of us are thinking of you thanks.

Gossipmonster Mon 01-Apr-13 19:33:25

I don't think anyone's semen tastes "wonderful" - and I've sampled my fair share in my time smile

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 19:35:24

Tolly, feel free to dress me up as some sort of cunt if that makes you feel better. I couldn't give a flying monkey's fuck what you can or can't understand about my posts.

kotinka Mon 01-Apr-13 19:35:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 19:41:34

Chairman, lots of men who enjoy having sex with their wives patronise lapdancing clubs. Not sure of your point. I have escorted many men who have wives just like you at home. This 'power' you have over your husbands does not extend to their wallets, I'm afraid; I made thousands and thousands of pounds in my thirties having the time of my life with men just like your husband.

Gossip, 'tis true - my husband's semen is great can't say the same for his father's, though wink

EyesWallowsPunk Mon 01-Apr-13 19:42:39

Why are you here, Kotina? Your point has already been made <rolls eyes>

Gossipmonster Mon 01-Apr-13 19:42:44

Well must say - you sound lovely smile

ChairmanWow Mon 01-Apr-13 19:42:49

Cross-posted. Kotinka - second that idea. Any way MNHQ can intervene? Happy for any of my posts to be deleted/moved.

ChairmanWow Mon 01-Apr-13 19:44:01

On second thoughts any chance eyes can just be escorted off the thread? It's just getting so personal it's ridiculous.

rhondajean Mon 01-Apr-13 19:44:11

Are we not supposed to enjoy anal now?

<missed that memo>

kotinka Mon 01-Apr-13 19:44:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gossipmonster Mon 01-Apr-13 19:46:57

Hoping OP is ok and works it out with her OH smile

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 19:47:12

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 19:47:55

And everything wishing you well and thinking of you.

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 19:49:16

If your hisbands semen tastes wonderful why did you need to " get used to the taste?"

rhondajean Mon 01-Apr-13 19:51:07

Yes there's a distraught person somewhere and it's not really the place for a discussion on women's sexuality - why don't you go start a thead in FWR?

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 19:51:47

Also on your other thread you say you are "poor bastards" where is all the money you earned from escorting our husbands then? You sound like a fool now to be honest.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 19:53:57

I know the answer to this!! S/he will say that it is our husbands' semen that she was tasting. Because she is escorting all of our partners behind our backs when they are not looking at porn or in a lapdancing club isn't she? Because of how awful and sexless we now are as we have been married to them for more than 2 years and how they couldn't possibly find us attractive when someone like Eyes is making herself available.

Getting the hang of this now....

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 19:54:16

I sense Eyes is trying to shock, and has a very mistaken idea that we are all dried up prudes who will faint away at the words anal and swallowing spunk.

She's new to MN wink grin

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 19:57:31

" By all means start your own thread about how uptight we all are, how much porn our DHs are reading, how many orgasms you've faked today, etc etc etc ad nauseam "


Actually eyes, anal sex doesn't hurt if it's done by someone skillful with lots of lube.

Just sayin'.

If you worked in the sex industry then no wonder you've got such a low opinion of men - you came across the most loathsome specimens.

It's really sad that it's tainted your views of all the others.

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 19:59:22

Love it is

Mugofteaforme Mon 01-Apr-13 20:01:34

What a judgemental lot you all are. So many of you would flush a marriage /ltr down the pan because of a drunken night out? What value the cumulative experiences of a relationship if only to be obliterated by some guy being a prat? What would I do? I'll give him a through bollocking for being such a dickhead. mark his sorry card. It would be a pretty weak relationship if you'd leave a husband /long term partner over it if he was otherwise a good partner.

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 20:16:13

It would be a deal breaker for me Mug - I would never do anything so seedy and I expect the same of my dh. Besides which he respects women and has a higher opinion of them and himself than to go and do this. I think that this is what the OP is struggling with too - he has betrayed her when she feels vulnerable and she thought he had more respect for her and their relationship then he has displayed.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Mon 01-Apr-13 20:17:47

It's up to any individual person to decide what levels of behaviour are acceptable within a relationship - nobody can tell another person that x,y or z is not a good enough reason to leave a relationship.

Women are constantly being told by society to put up with bad behaviour of men, that boys will be boys, that they have to work at the relationship. Some women make it clear from the start that they won't tolerate their partners using the sex industry. It is their right to make that choice.

BelaLugosisShed Mon 01-Apr-13 20:29:02

Mug - So it's a woman's fault if she won't accept such inexcusable behaviour from her partner? She's the one flushing her marriage down the pan, not the man who made the choice to pay another woman to dance naked for him when he had a wife, a toddler and a newborn at home?
On what planet would any man think this was acceptable behaviour?

The problem in their relationship is down to his behaviour , not her reaction to it - it's his responsibility and his alone.

IsBella Mon 01-Apr-13 20:32:08

Absolutely Sabrina.

This is the probelm Mugoftea, it's not flushing a relationship down the pan because of a drunken night out.

I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of people's deal-breakers.

It's not the drunken night out that's the issue. It's the fact that any man who goes to a lapdancing club and pays for a dance, has an attitude to women which I personally would find so disgusting that I couldn't any longer feel any respect for him.

It's a bit different if he's young - young men are learning, they may grow up, they may look back at stuff when they're older and decide that was shit and they wouldn't do it now.

But a fully grown, reasonably aged adult man going to lap-dancing clubs, is either a pathetically weak easily led man - not someone I could respect - or a man who doesn't respect women. That means he doesn't respect me. And even if he makes an exception for me and respects me but thinks of my sisters in the sex industry as sluts who aren't "real women" like his wife and sisters and mother, that means he's a shit specimen of a man. And that, for me, is the deal-breaker, not the drunken night out.

I'm not surprised by how so many women seem to be able to not spot that, because we are raised to pretend that men treating women as sex objects is just a bit of fun. But I don't think it's a bit of fun - I think it goes to the heart of a man's integrity, of what he is as a human being. I don't want to live with a human being who is willing to de-humanise other human beings.

What other women do, is up to them. But just because they don't mind living with men like this, they have no right to tell women who do, that we're somehow frivolous or unreasonable or throwing away worthwhile relationships for nothing. It's not nothing. If you want to pretend it is, that's your choice. But it's not mine. And it's not the OP's and I think she deserves some support whatever she chooses.

BelaLugosisShed Mon 01-Apr-13 20:41:57

That's it exactly Isbella, if they are a young couple and have never had a conversation about LDC's and their opinions of them, I could see a way back from that, good communication, rebuilding trust, his understanding of just what he has done , then the relationship could be worth saving, but it's down to him and how emotionally intelligent he is , he's the one who should be pulling out all the stops to put things right.
I'd be wanting to know if this was the first time he'd been to a strip club and why he chose to pay for a dance.

Oh dear EyesWallowsPunk, you're getting really riled up now aren't you. Just for the record I'm about as far as from middle class as you can get, I was born in Toxteth, like. grin A fishwife I can be on occasion though. I have never had to fake an orgasm honey, although I am disappointed if I only get one during sex.

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 21:44:13

I got deleted for joking that country kitten could not be a hag as I was the one called a hag and that she was just uptight!
HQ are you kidding me? I was quoting what had already been said to me as an insult! Can a woman not even own her own insults now?

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 21:56:43

MNHQ getting the wrong end of the stick. And if anyone needs deleting on this thread...well I can think of one worthy contender....

countrykitten Mon 01-Apr-13 21:57:23

I called myself a hag - will I be deleted too?

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 21:57:31

Exactly. Cheek of it. hmm

Ledkr Mon 01-Apr-13 21:58:42

Probably. Cheek when we were only quoting what we had already been called.

CheerfulYank Mon 01-Apr-13 23:11:54

I enjoy anal if I'm drunk! <pipes in pointlessly>

TiggyD Mon 01-Apr-13 23:24:24

Doesn't everyone? Same as kebabs and the Proclaimers.

ChairmanWow Mon 01-Apr-13 23:40:22

tiggy - the Proclaimers, anal and a kebab in the same sentence conjures up a frankly terrifying image. Pass the brain bleach!

MolehillAlchemy Mon 01-Apr-13 23:47:47

Round of applause for IsBella. Beautifully put!

CheerfulYank Tue 02-Apr-13 03:42:49

PMSL Tigs. grin

bp300 Tue 02-Apr-13 04:34:05

Appologies for the spelling below on my phone and can't edit beyond first paragraph.
Once again my comments on here are attacked but I am telling the truth. A large percentage of the women on this thread claim their husbands have never gone to strip clubs / had private dances which based on my experience of an average of around 3 stag dos a year for 10 years there is absolutely no chance this Is the case.
The following statements are facts -
I have never come across a bloke who has refused to set foot in a strip club on a stag do. This is based on a few hundred people over more than 10 years.
I know of quite a few men who have lied about having dances etc, These are normal guys who have never cheated on their wives or girlfriend.
One poster mentioned it was the type of people I hang out with but on a stag do there is always a wide range of people such a colleagues etc. In fact only one of my friends has ever cheated on their partners so I think this is certainly not the case,
I do not know any men who would class going to a strip club as cheating. On fact on many of these stag dos it is not uncommon for the brother or father of the bride to be to come along so it is definately not classed as cheating by the majority,

I will concede that there is the odd guy out there who will refuse to go to a strip club but they would be a very low percentage. If the op broke up her marriage over this there is an etremely high chance her next partner will have done the same at sone stage.

I stand by what I said before, based on my experience I would definately say that a majority of women on here are wrong about their partners. Do you honestly think I am lying about this? I would be interested if more male posters could give their experiences of how many men they know have been to strip clubs and whether they have lied to their partners about it,

I do think going out to a strip club on a normal night out is a different matter to going on a stag do and is not the norm amongst most men.

CheerfulYank Tue 02-Apr-13 07:06:43

I do know men who have gone to strip clubs and lied about it.

My DH has gone to strip clubs (before we were together, when he was in college) but does not now. He's a different person at 34 than he was at 20. We've talked a lot about porn, lap dances, etc, and my reasons for believing that the "sexuality for sale" culture contributed to my rape. Also when we started having children we talked a lot about what we wanted them to be like in terms of their own sexuality.

As a result of all this, I completely trust him when he says he doesn't watch porn or go to strip clubs. At this point, given that he knows how I feel very clearly, it would be a deal breaker for me, both for my feelings on it and because I would see it as extremely disrespectful to me and our relationship.

CheerfulYank Tue 02-Apr-13 07:11:15

Plus he's gone over all religious on me all of a sudden grin
Which certainly doesn't stop a lot of people, of course. But he really believes it is wrong.

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 07:33:53

So what anyway? My dh also knows many men who goes or has been to one! Doesn't mean he does though.
When we met we had a fairly debauched sex life involving "experimenting with various things" there is no way he'd have had to lie about not going iykwim because we had done worse!
Then since we e been settled he doesn't go anywhere where there are those clubs and I did hear his conversations to his stag mate telling him he didn't fancy going.
I wish it was all about his conscience but when asked he says he just doesn't get it! He says he can't see the point if getting all turned on then just going off to the next pub or home.
I'm not sure why you are on such a quest to prove your point!
Most women prefer a massive penis btw so let's hope you measure up grin

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 07:41:06

Also bp. You Sk for other makes to come forward to give their take in it but you are saying our dh's are lying.
I'm not sure what you think our marriages are like but in mine it's not all about kids work house and cooking.
Me and my dh go out together get pissed and have very deep conversations. We often lie on bed untill the early hours telling each other out darkest secrets. We speak or text twice daily, very soppy stuff.
When you are that close to someone you don't lie.
He's told me worse than "I on e went to a strip club" knowing if be upset but he still told me.
Don't judge others by your own standards.

BelaLugosisShed Tue 02-Apr-13 08:10:35

Well mine's never been to a strip club on a stag do, that's because he's never been to a bloody stag do, so how does that fit in with your "universal truth" ? hmm

There have been men on other threads like this stating that they've never been to a LDC on a stag do - are they lying too?

Have you read my post about my DH refusing to take clients to one? If he would do that ( and have a huge row with his boss about it) why exactly would he choose to go in one of his own volition? He has been to a few birthdays/leaving do's and not followed the others like a sheep ( and once he's said no usually a couple more have followed suit) .

That is a fact and I think I know my DH after 30 years thank you.

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 08:24:05

Maybe we should form a support group for our poor dh's who are obviously not behaving in the correct way and are missing out on seeing people's young dds taking off their clothes hmm

GoSuckEggs Tue 02-Apr-13 08:28:46

I personally dont understand the big issue with strip clubs. I have no problem if my DH went, or if he had a dance. - perhaps I would just want to go with him.

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 08:32:07

Good for you gosuck that's your personal choice.
Doesn't mean it's everyone's though.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 02-Apr-13 08:50:38

Well, some men treat women like crap, and those men think that all men behave like them. <shrug>

bp only knows a 'the odd' man that won't go into strip clubs - ergo all our husbands are lying to us. But - he's judging this on the stag night culture. And I think all the women contributing to this thread would recognise that misogyny is alive and well in all walks of life.

Does the average man go on 3 stag nights a year? My dh doesn't - he hates the stag night culture and avoids them like the plague (easier since we've had children).

Ledkr - my relationship is like yours smile

GoSuckEggs Tue 02-Apr-13 08:52:38

Ledkr - hmm that is why i wrote ' I personally' FFS

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 02-Apr-13 08:54:28

I think that men with opinions like bp are often the same type who sneer at men who have female friends and leer at said female friends on nights out. Because, to them, women aren't full human beings - they are there to look pretty and for the sexual gratification of men.

AnitaKnightSavesTheWorld Tue 02-Apr-13 09:09:36

I think it's important not to base your opinions of men on stag nights you've attended, bp300. After all, men that go on stag nights are a self selecting group - many men don't go on stag nights.

One of my friend's dh goes on them all the time. And he goes to strip clubs.

I can see how watching men's behaviour on stag nights over a 10 year period would skew your opinion of men's behaviour though.

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 09:32:35

Also important to note that its perfectly possible to have a stag do without strippers or lap dancers!
I've just asked ds 2 who is 25 if he's been to any stags with strippers and he rolled his eyes and said "my mates aren't chavs mother!" He's been to loads and they are normally paintball or suchlike followed by boozy curry and clubbing or weekend abroad with much clubbing and sunburn.
I'm not sure the stag culture is as rife as we think.
His mates are all pretty ambitious intelligent guys who mostly work on the travel industry and seem to love good djs nice fashions and beautiful girls. Not Neanderthals. They seem to frown on the sex trade as I've heard them taking the piss out of some guy who uses prostitutes and often ends up robbed or stitched up.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 02-Apr-13 09:49:25

I love your ds Ledkr!

I do find it interesting, on these threads, some posters sheer insistence that all men go to strip clubs.

Is it because they know they are doing something seedy? That if they can convince themselves that all men go, (oh, and some women - let's not forget that) then what they are doing is ok?

I wonder - are they trying to convince us or themselves?

FucktidiaBollockberry Tue 02-Apr-13 10:29:26

It's that phenomenon of people who know or vaguely feel that what they're doing is wrong, or that other people would consider it wrong, trying to convince themselves and everyone else that it's not wrong really, because everyone else is doing it and just not being open about it Sabrina.

Some of these people carry it further and posit that they are in fact, more virtuous than those who say they don't do it, because at least they're open about it while those who say they don't do it must necessarily be lying.

Rapists think all men are rapists and all other men are just paying lip-service to the idea that raping women is wrong, but they do it really, it's just that they're not admitting to it. Regularly on these boards you'll get people telling people who don't smack their children that they do and they're simply being holier than thou; alcoholics assume that people who say that they have had enough to drink, are going home to down another bottle of wine in secret afterwards, as they are.

It's a really interesting phenomenon, this insistence that people who aren't like you and don't have your values, really are like you and have even worse values than you because they're hypocrites to boot. grin

MrsSpagBol Tue 02-Apr-13 10:31:21

^^ I also don't get the insistence!!! Insisting that ALL men watch porn and ALL men go to strip clubs on stag do's is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. My mind literally boggles!

Have you met ALL men?
What about other cultures where it's not standard to have a stag do? Are those grooms not men?

I mean, it's such a pointless thing to argue!

TiggyD Tue 02-Apr-13 10:59:59

Shhh! I'm imagining the Pope on a stag do!

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 14:03:23

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EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 14:10:24

Fucktidia, people like me are trying to open your eyes to the fact that lapdancing clubs/dogging areas/salons are full to the brim of husbands and sons of women JUST LIKE YOU. maybe they don't watch porn in your house. Maybe they are courteous, kind, intelligent and well-rounded human beings. They tell you they would never frequent such places. But I have met them. I have met them all.

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 14:18:41

By-the-way, what the other poster said about the brothers and fathers of the bride going to lapdancing clubs on stag do's is absolutely spot-on. And I'll tell you this: the fathers of the bride are always the worst. In fact, I would stick my neck out and say the most lecherous and outright disrepectful breed of punter I have come across in clubs is the well-heeled, middle-aged, middle-class husband. They are the ones who attempt to belittle the dancers and try to enforce the stereotype of sex industry workers. They are the ones who ask 'do you take it up the arse, then?' and 'do you do any extras?' and 'are those tits real?' and 'are you completely bald down there?' It is never the down-to-earth younger men who are there for a laugh. It is the good old married men who go home and pretend they went for 'a curry'.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 02-Apr-13 14:24:33

I have met them all

Sure you have. You've met all our husbands, sons and daughters. Of course you have. hmm

<whispers> not everyone's life revolves around the sex industry.

FucktidiaBollockberry Tue 02-Apr-13 14:27:34

No Eyes, you haven't.

As has already been said, you have only met the worst specimens.

I agree with you that most men are shit because our culture makes them so.

But there are a significant minority who aren't and you have no right to tar them with the same brush as the men who you have met.

You don't know the men who don't frequent lap dancing clubs, so you simply can't believe they exist.

In the same way that rapists can't believe that some men go home drunk and horny and if their wives don't fancy a shag, they accept that. Your average rapist doesn't believe that could happen because he can't imagine that a man can not be a rapist like him.

You have the effing cheek to tell us that you are trying to open our eyes to the fact that every man on this planet is actually an exploitative arsehole, while refusing to open your own eyes to the fact that you know what, some of them aren't.

Just because you've never met a good man, doesn't mean they don't exist. Some of the people on here are with them and you are so emotionally invested in excusing the behaviour of the men you know that you refuse to believe there is a different way of being a man and a better way and some women won't settle for low-lives.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 02-Apr-13 14:28:45

You're working yourself up into quite a lather, aren't you Eyes?

Step Tue 02-Apr-13 14:42:05


Oh FFS.....

So Eyes you don't know one bloke that'd say no? You need to change your friends.

ChairmanWow Tue 02-Apr-13 14:45:48

eyes is just permanently angry and accepts no other reality than her own. A reality in which men and women are not able to have honest, trusting and caring relationships as equals. Better to think that all men are lying scumbags and we're naive and deluded, seemingly.

I hope you can work through your bitterness eyes but please can you take it elsewhere because frankly you're starting to sound like a broken record and you're making someone else's thread all about you. If you want to vent or -god forbid - want to explore why everything enrages you so then start your own thread.

Somewhere lost in this debate is someone who is feeling very vulnerable and was worried for the future of her relationship. If you can't make this about her then go post elsewhere.

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 15:15:15

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EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 15:19:48

Sabrina, yes, I am passionate about what I know to be the truth about human relationships and men and women. What is your point, love?

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 15:24:13

Women who have never worked in the sex industry versus women who have. Who has the monopoly on knowledge about men? Erm....

MrsSpagBol Tue 02-Apr-13 15:24:17

"Fact. No-one said every man goes to strip clubs. " bp300 did

"No-one said your husband is doing these things" - yes you did Eyes. You did say this. And you attacked countrykitchen and others calling them hags, vipers etc etc who faked orgasms/ didn't know their husbands / etc etc.

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 15:31:14

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MrsSpagBol Tue 02-Apr-13 15:40:38

"I am leaving the thread until someone comes up with something vaguely resembling a non-combative philosophy about men and women and sexual identity."

This is not what the OP's post and this thread is about! As I said before, start your own thread!

And for what it's worth, Cuntry isn't the only woman on here coming across as a 'crotchety hag'.

ok dear. sigh

IsBella Tue 02-Apr-13 15:52:05


You know nothing about the people posting on this site. You know nothing about our experiences, who we know, who we empathise with.

But what I do know about you, is that you are not very good at empathy. You seem to live in some sort of deranged reality where anyone who disagrees with you is a deluded, middle class pearl-clutcher.

FWIW I have no idea why you suggest I should employ a stripper as a cleaner. a) I do my own cleaning b) I can't afford a cleaner c) I don't know if a stripper would want a job cleaning my house or anyone else's. Also no, I don't respect the job - upholding patriarchy isn't something I can support, but I can separate the choices of women who go into the sex industry, from the political analysis of the industry and I can do a political and personal critique of the men who feel entitled to objectify women in that industry or in any other area of life.


glossyflower Tue 02-Apr-13 15:56:30

Going to original post and not read the whole 15 page thread... I have mixed feelings.

My DH is not your average Neanderthal man who would enjoy going to a strip club so that part would not really bother me as much.
I would however be very bothered if he paid money for a topless lapdance. That is very wrong when you are in a relationship with someone despite the fact there is no physical touching.
If a random girl in the street came over to him and exposed herself suggestively is no different than a lap dancer only the lap dancer has been PAID!

However. My hen night last year was shared with 4 other hens and there were male strippers there. I didn't get involved with the games they do, like licking cream off their body or undoing their zips with my teeth but I did have a photograph taken with them and another hen. Us girls were sat on the chair and the strippers were stood over us.
I was laughing because I was so embarrassed and when I got home I told my now DH straight away and showed him the pictures thinking he'd be pissed off but he wasnt in the slightest. He just said its not as if there was anything emotional in it.
His reaction to this has made me think more about if he were to go to a strip club I might now feel differently (not the paid lap dancer thing though!). It wouldn't be something he'd do off his own back to go to one but he may find himself out with the lads one night and would go part of the group.
I wouldn't like the thought if him looking at sexy naked women who have nicer breasts/bum/legs than me but I would trust him.

IsBella Tue 02-Apr-13 15:56:30

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countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:02:13

Pissed off as I have had a MN warning for saying that Eyes is full of shit! Huh. May flounce.

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:07:57

And she has referred to me (rather wittily not ) as Cuntry and called me a 'crotechty hag' . But reports me for saying what I said. Double standards anyone?

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:09:25

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EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:10:17

Country, you'll get over it, love.

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:12:22

I still have not had a response to my suggestion that your sons are watching porn and your daughters are dressing for men.

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:12:23

glossyflower you make interesting points re the male stripper thing but I have to say that I would not have stayed/taken part and would have buggered off home. Not my thing at all and I think my dh would think less of me if I did go - not because he would be threatened sexually (much like your wasn't) bit because he would think it so tasteless and tacky.

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:13:28

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countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:15:16

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EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:16:37

By-the-way, why do some of you feel it necessary to claim your husband's sexual identity? Next thing you'll be telling me he only thinks about you when he's masturbating...

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:18:04

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EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:19:03

Blimey, Country, you'd better not go oop North if you are outraged at being called 'love' (and don't ever go to Blackpool if you don't like 'cheap and tacky').

GogoGobo Tue 02-Apr-13 16:21:09

Eyes how do you know you are the ONLY woman on here to have ever worked in the sex industry?

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:21:13

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EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:22:46

Gogo, because, so, far, there has only been myself who has championed the cause of sex industry workers (except for Bp; I'm not sure whether she has or not). I'm sorry if I have presumed wrongly.

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:23:15

Where did I say I was outraged? Erm...that's right - didn't and I'm not.

GogoGobo Tue 02-Apr-13 16:24:41

Oh yeah Eyes SOME of our sons and daughters are watching porn and dressing for men. SOME not ALL
Perhaps if you stopped posting opinions as absolute fact there'd be more of a debate. Agree with previous posters...start your own thread.
Also suprised you are reporting posters when you are clearly so combative and provocative

EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:25:11

I shall return later to see whether anyone has responded to my suggestion about your sons and daughters...

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:27:39

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EyesWallowsPunk Tue 02-Apr-13 16:29:38

Cross-posted, Gogo, thank you for your reply. I never said all sons and daughters now, did I? I am addressing all the women on here who are taking the moral high ground about the sex industry and all it entails and represents: does your son/has your son ever wanked over porn? Has/does your daughter dress for men?

If my posts are crossing boundaries of mumsnet etiquette or guidelines I shall bow to any direction from MNHQ. In the meantime, Gogo, I will continue to report anyone I see fit.

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:30:27

And yes - start your own thread so that more people can get to see the sort of things you are posting. Their responses may well open your eyes a bit.

GogoGobo Tue 02-Apr-13 16:32:28

Disagree Country
I just think Eyes is doing herself a great disservice
Now, where is there a nice thread about pearls and cupcakes I can join. I need a place of sanctuary whilst my husband wanks off over hard core porn and my daughter dresses like a whore under my VERY nose

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:32:40

Wonders whether to report Eyes for the charming name change but thinks not as it is so much better that people can see what kind of crap s/he is posting on here.

How you have the gall to report me after basically calling me a 'cunt' several times is actually beyond me. Ridiculous.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 02-Apr-13 16:34:10

Anyway... OP I hope you're okay.

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 16:34:35

Gogo point taken - it's just that Eyes seems to feel that she is the voice of all sex workers and makes very sweeping generalisation. But yes - you are right.

quietlysuggests Tue 02-Apr-13 16:40:06

I would be livid hurt and well done you for making a big deal of this. Surely your marriage, and the sexual fidelity of your husband is worth a bit of a fuss and a few tears!!
I would let DH know and see clearly how shocked and hurt you are. And with a new born baby?
I would be fuming.
I would argue along the lines of : well you used to have an agreement that sexual contact was not permitted outside of our marriage.
you now have a marriage where sexual contact is permitted as long as the person who is turned on does not come.
So you are ok if I head out clubbing, get pissed and let some randomer feel me up and turn me on til I reach the point of almost coming? And then I'll come home to you and new baby? Is that where our marriage is at?

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 16:57:01

eyes why would I want to ask my son questions like that?
That's his business not mine.
I have had three teenage boys who all had a colourful Internet history and a magazine stash on their rooms. That us very normal for a teenage boy.
This thread is about lap dancing and whether its ok for the ops husband to go to one, which for the op it wasn't so that's that really.
As for advice on how to talk to my children why not save it for when you are a mother and don't spout shut about stuff you know nothing about.

glossyflower Tue 02-Apr-13 17:16:55

country just to clarify I wasn't aware there would be male strippers there. And I did specifically tell our friends, I didn't want strippers did all the other hens. Unfortunately, because the club we went to after the meal knew it was a massive hen party, the club took it on themselves to host a so called ladies night.
However it was my hen night, and early in the evening I couldn't just leave.
If anything it was funny watching these boys thinking they are sexy when they really weren't, they just looked sweaty and horrible, and there were other girls there just lapping it up!

As for what your husband would think, actually a married friend who was there was involved in the strippers games, and seemed to really enjoy it. However the next day, of course photos and comments went up on facebook (not vindictively just innocently) and friend's husband was quite upset, and told her she let herself down as it was very tasteless and tacky.
She was mortified people put up these photos, but imo the mortifying thing was her taking part like she was an 18 year old on heat enjoying every second.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Tue 02-Apr-13 17:43:25

Eyes: yes, I am passionate about what I know to be the truth about human relationships and men and women.

Oh good. Thanks for that.

Your "truth" about human relationships and men and women is not necessarily anyone else's "truth." Why you think you're so qualified to know more about our relationships than we do ourselves, just because you've worked in the sex industry, I'll never know.

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 18:06:08

It's all a bit weird tbh.

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 18:25:15

I don't believe she's worked in the industry or she wouldn't feel the need to be so vile to other females.
There have been genuine ex sex workers on mn over the years and they have been very balanced about it all. Not felt the need to be venomous about other women's relationships.
Mostly though they are very sexually liberated and wise and would take ownership of their sexual satisfaction and having spent years satisfying men despite not fancying them would certainly not preform any sexual acts simply to satisfy a man when not working.
Eyes has such a strange view of sex and uses such teenage boy terminology it's hard to see her as having had the open mind needed to work in said environment.

IsBella Tue 02-Apr-13 19:00:50

I like Rebecca Mott's writing. She spent years in the sex industry and has quite a different voice to Eyes.

IsBella Tue 02-Apr-13 19:03:59

Oh btw my daughter doesn't dress for men, she's 10.


Also lots of my friend's children who are older than her, don't do the stereotype "check" dressing you talked about Eyes.

BTW I said you've never met a good man, because you talk as if you haven't. You insist that all men are scum, which leads me to believe you've never met a decent one.

My mistake.

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 19:11:31

I wear eyelash extensions hmm I have short ones and they make my eyes look pretty. Not for men tho cos I already got a gorgeous one who still gave me a massive hug and snog just now when me n the kids got on from the farm park. Cold, muddy and in a bobble hat.

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 19:12:43


Sunnywithshowers Tue 02-Apr-13 19:20:52

Isbella I've just looked at Rebecca Mott's blog. It's so full of grief. sad

Ledkr Tue 02-Apr-13 19:21:18

Pmd you country. Could do it soon would be well funny.

itsasmallworldisntit Tue 02-Apr-13 21:35:17

oh dear, you people appear to have huge trust issues, first of all - how do you know he went to the strip club? i am going to assume that he has told you (unless you have been following him around), and if he told you then would you not think he has nothing to hide?
a lot of posters here, seem to have low self esteem, and for that i pity you. who does this man go home to every night?

while it was you, now you have kicked him out it will make it ever so more tempting for him to seek a warm cosy bed with another.

your points seem counter productive

countrykitten Tue 02-Apr-13 21:39:35

Oh God. Either Eyes has name changed or she actually has a disciple.

Please think about the OP and her distress before posting such appalling crap.

kotinka Tue 02-Apr-13 21:56:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 02-Apr-13 22:09:35


dublindee Wed 03-Apr-13 01:17:32

Have read through the whole thread. TBH I was trying to see if I could allow for how I'd feel if my DH did this and I just couldn't get past it in my head to say "yeah I'm fine with that".

I did ask him hypothetically outlining bare facts if he thought it was cheating. Looking for another perspective...

His replies "Why would I be in the club in the first place?"

"It's sleazy and objectifies women"

"It's not a proper turn on if you have to PAY someone to get sexy with you"

"Technically it's not cheating - but morally it's fucked up. If you're married and your wife's just had a baby and is letting you out to enjoy a night with the lads you should be kissing her feet and not being an arsehole"

I must say, I would be extremely shocked if hubby ever went to a LDC. It's just not his thing.. I could only imagine him going if it was a stag do. I wouldn't be impressed but to be fair if its a stag do then it's kinda more understandable although not any less exploitative, sleazy, sad but having said that if he had a private dance then it would be a huge issue for me. He knows how I feel about stuff like this, so it's showing no respect for my pov. It's a massive breach of trust as well.

Could I forgive? He'd have a hell of a time explaining to me. And the apology would have to be AMAZING.


I just hope I never find out. hmm

Sending you a big hug OP. Hope you are doing ok. xx

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 01:48:53

I'm surprised at how many replies to the op say this would be a deal breaker, do they really mean they would split up or divorce over this? Or am I missing the point?

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 09:59:46

itsasmallworld this may come as news to you, but there are women on this thread with enough self-respect that if their OH's slept with someone else to show her who is boss, they would know for absolute sure that they'd made the right decision to throw him out in the first place. The OP sounds like one of them.

I know that's alarming for some men, the idea that women don't have to be grateful that they've got a man and that's why come on sites like Mumsnet to try and put women in their place and ensure they don't get ideas above themselves like expecting men to treat them and other women with some fucking respect. However, mostly women on these sites spot them and continue to tell the OP that no, she's not wrong, she is entitled to some self-respect after all.


FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 10:03:30

Verbalpunchbug, no you are not missing the point.

Yes, there are women who would split up or divorce over this.

Because as other people have said further down the thread (whcih you clearly haven't read properly) this is not about "this" - it's about what it says about the man who is doing this. It's about what he thinks of women, what he thinks of his relationship, what sort of person he is. Some women are happy to live with sub-standard men; some of us would rather live alone.

It has actually already been said.

DreamingofSummer Wed 03-Apr-13 10:08:49

verbal they are the ones who live in black and white land.

Last Saturday I went to see the Danny Boyle film "Trances". In one scene Rosario Dawson is full frontally nude. Should my OH now divorce me for this.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 10:13:46

No, I don't live in black and white land.

I just am not prepared to make excuses for men who don't respect women.

And I'm not prepared to live with cognitive dissonance or denial.

And I don't believe all men are shit.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 10:15:21

And equating seeing a scene in a mainstream film with supporting the sex industry and then accusing other people of having a black and white view of the world, makes you sound rather confused.

DreamingofSummer Wed 03-Apr-13 10:22:15

So Kate Winslett getting her kit off in every film she makes is OK 'cos she's a highly paid "mainstream" actress whilst a struggling woman making a few extra quid in a strip club is not.

Both do what they do to sell tickets.

Cognitive dissonance writ large

MrsSpagBol Wed 03-Apr-13 10:26:46

Dreamingofsummer - what is your point?

You can't decide what is ok for someone else hmm

Some people may find Kate Winslet nude in a movie nude offensive, and choose not to watch that movie. If you don't mind, watch the movie!

Surely this post is about how the OP feels about the matter, in relation to her husband and her marriage?

How can you tell someone else what is or what is not a deal breaker in their marriage? That just makes no sense????

If you are fine with your DH going to a strip club, that is good for you. OP is not. That's the point. That is why you are maried to your DH and she is married to hers.

CANNOT understand why this is so difficult to comprehend?!

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 10:37:01

I don't believe all men are shit either. It is depressing to see how low an opinion some women have of men - they need porn, LDCs are harmless fun, we have to submit to sexual practices we might not enjoy out of kindness to our man etc etc ad infinitum

I have a very high opinion of my dh as many women on here have of theirs - why are there a few posters trying to tarnish this and bring these good men (and our relationships ) down to their own sordid level?

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 11:17:14

countrykitten - because they're jealous of your relationship.


Seriously, lots of women live with really shit men and they're either jealous of the ones who don't, or simply can't bear to believe that there are better men than the one they're with - they can't bear to really look at the ones they're with and hide behind the "all men are like him" bollocks.

Thus insulting all the decent men out there who aren't like their shitty husbands and calling those of us who insist that men aren't all like their shitty husbands and some of them are really quite nice, manhaters. grin

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 11:21:16

And again DreamingofSummer, your misguided attempt to pretend that going to a mainstream film which may feature nudity is the same as supporting the sex industry, is not a very good effort.

There's a discussion to be had about that but that discussion should probably not be had on a thread where an OP is looking for support because her DH has threatened her marriage. Unless the OP would find it helpful of course.

DreamingofSummer Wed 03-Apr-13 11:21:34


My point....

The OP kicked her husband out then "asked what would you do?"

The black and whiters then said "dump the bastard".

We in the real world don't see things in this absolute way. I used the Trances example to illustrate this.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 11:25:15

Actually no-one's said dump the bastard.

What they have said is that if this behaviour is a result of this man's essential character and values, then they would dump the bastard.

There's been some discussion about whether something like this could be a youthful mistake, the result of being raised in a porn-sick culture which can be put right.

People get very upset about the suggestion that women don't have to live with men whose character and values are incompatible with their own. And they get upset by the suggestion that what men do is a guide to their character and values.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 11:47:27

I think the op will sort it out with her dh. From what I gathered from her posts, he was genuinely apologetic, admitted that he saw it as cheating, generally seemed remorseful and willing to make it up to her.

Hopefully this has made him consider his actions and realise that having a lapdance is not just a bit of harmless fun. It can lose you your wife and family.

I hope she does sort it out with him - and I hope he won't be leaving her at home with a newborn, while he pays another woman to dance practically naked in front of him again.

However, I don't know why people don't believe other posters here wouldn't leave their dh's over this - I don't really know how we can make it any clearer. Some of us regard it as an essential part of our relationships that our husbands don't use the sex industry. I'd rather be on my own than married to a man who could use and abuse women in this way.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 12:07:27

Yes - no one on here has said 'dump the bastard' and I too hope that they work it out, seconding the sentiments of Sabrina's post.

FB it is truly grim what some women will put up with and how they assume that all men are the same - Eyes is a case in point - then slate women who want and have better things from a relationship. I think that you are right that jealousy is playing a part here and they are not strong enough to be single rather than with a horrible man.

DreamingofSummer Wed 03-Apr-13 12:15:30


Please define "the sex industry*

Page 3? Nude scenes in mainstream movies? Nuts magazine? Underwear adverts in M&S? Madonna records? Francis Bacon's paintings? Sophie Dahl's photo on a hoarding?

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 13:07:03

Spagbol, no I haven't read the entire thread, it's 17 pages long and I simply don't have the time, sorry if this upsets you.

I have to agree its a very black and white view and its very easy to sit at a keyboard and say I would do this or that but I think if some on here really had to face this issue themselves they might think differently.

If you think lap dancing is part of the 'sex industry' that says more about your state of mind than lap dancing itself, what has stripping got to do with sex? I suppose this goes to explain why there is this double standard, men go to watch strippers to get turned on but women only do it for a bit of a laugh. In other words all men are basically perverts who can only think with their dicks.

It would be interesting to know where you would draw the line,porn, a mainstream film, page 3, television programmes? When your on holiday and you go to the beach do you make your OH close his eyes in case he sees a pair of breasts?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 13:15:47

Here you go Dreaming - just in case you were confused.

Lap dancing clubs are defined as SEV's (sex entertainment venues) and they are most definitely part of the sex industry.

M&S underwear ads are not considered part of the sex industry by sane people.

No, I do not make my dh close his eyes on a beach, and I have sunbathed topless on the beach with and without him.

If you can't see the difference between these things, then I'm not I can really help you.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 13:19:16

Oh, and if a man wants to go to a strip club and get turned on paying women to strip for him, then he won't be in a relationship with me. It really is that simple. You make your own choices in your relationships, and I'll make mine.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 03-Apr-13 13:22:45

If stripping has nothing to do with sex and the sex industry - how come LDCs need a licence to be a "sexual entertainment venue" and why then do some men pay for a woman to take off her clothes and dance in a highly sexualised way for him, exposing her genital area and often going as far as rubbing her breasts in his face?

As to where to draw the line, that's up to individual couples surely?
But do you really think this is about insecure women not wanting their partners to see naked female flesh? hmm
As for my own personal view - I would not be married to a man who thought it was acceptable to go to LDCs , some women are ok with that but they have absolutely no right to tell other women, who aren't ok with it that they are stupid/insecure/jealous/whatever.

Do you think it's acceptable for a married man with a newborn to go to a club and pay for a private dance with a stripper?

ChairmanWow Wed 03-Apr-13 13:34:37

How is stripping naked, rubbing your breasts, spreading your legs to expose your vagina and gyrating not sexual? Seriously? What part of that isn't sexual and designed to a) sexually arouse the person watching and b) make them feel they have power over the person they are watching?

Incidentally I view male strippers in the same way. It's not a laugh, it's demeaning. When I had my hen do I informed my friends that if a stripper turned up I'd be going home. I unfriended someone on FB last week because she posted a picture of a male stripper. Most women on here don't have double standards about this despite what sex industry apologists would like to think.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 13:37:03

It doesn't matter if I'm at a keyboard or in RL, I would not have a relationship with a man who holds completely different values and ethics from me.

I don't understand why that is so difficult for some women to believe.

Do you all have relationships with partners who hold completely different ethical standards to you or something? And believe that every other woman should/ does do the same?

I know some women are so ground down by a society which encourages women to have low self-esteem that they will make all sorts of compromises in order to just say that they live with a man. But some of us manage to overcome our conditioning and refuse to make those compromises. I would rather never fuck again, than have to live with a man I don't respect. I just don't know why some people find that so difficult to believe, our society at least pays lip service to that idea, even if it discourages women from pursuing it.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 13:46:51

ChairmanWow I agree with you re male strippers.

Verbal - amazed by your post! Crackers.

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 13:50:13

I'm not entirely sure what having a baby has got to do with anything, yes I think it's acceptable, I also think the way you paint the picture and the reality of the situation are probably very different.

I often go to a pub on a Saturday before the match that has strippers on,OH knows this and has actually dropped me off outside. She also knows I don't really like going there because I don't like the beer they sell. I'd rather go somewhere else but some of my friends, mostly the single ones actually like to go there for the strippers. You'll always find us standing at the back because I refuse to stand up front and I'm more likely to be watching a match on the big screen than taking any notice of the stage.
Not quite the same as a lap dancing club but the reality of a situation. Am I cheating by being there? Would you say that was a deal breaker?

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 13:52:34

Thanks countrykitten, nice to know anyone you don't agree with is crackers.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 13:53:27

Yes I would Verbal.

But luckily you're not married to me so it's not an issue. grin

I would not want to be with a man who chose friends who were nobbers. You know what people are like by the things they do and the company they keep.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 13:57:10

Oh - verbal is a punter. I can see why he'd need to normalise it then.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 14:04:16

See how they always minimise it?

"I don't even want to go there, but all my mates do. And I don't even look at the strippers. Is that ok?"

Well, no it wouldn't be ok with me as I've said.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 14:04:48

I just can't imagine wanting to move in a social scene which included men who got to strip joints.

Euuuw, frankly

I'd rather be a hermit. grin

But luckily that's not necessary there are loads of people out there who don't have these sorts of values - in fact, they're the majority, most people don't go to strip bars regularly - so I don't need to move to that cave just yet.

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 14:06:30

Fucktidia, it's nice to know you vet your OH's friends, how nice for him.

I think calling me a punter is stretching the imagination a bit, if you want to call offering my view normalising it that's fine.

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 14:08:48

I'm not minimising, it happens to be the truth, I didn't ask if it was ok, I don't need your permission.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 14:12:20

See I knew you'd frame it in that way - of "vetting" someone's friends.

Mature reasonable people don't do that.

They look at the sort of people potential partners hang around with and if those people are generally low-lives, they decide that that says something about that potential partner. We choose our friends. In general, the friends we choose are consistent (broadly) with our values, interests and outlook.

One of the reasons we grow away from certain friends, is because their interests, values, priorities, whatever, differ from our's. Or we get closer to people whos interests, values etc., becoming increasingly closer to our's.

Sensible grown up people understand that judging a man by the company he keeps, isn't "vetting". Only people who have a really simplistic, combative and confrontational approach to relationships see it that way.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 14:13:10

And again, it's infantilising men.

I wouldn't dream of "vetting" a partner's friends.

A man who wasn't capable of choosing his own decent friends, is not a man I'd want to live with.



countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 14:15:29

verbal what was crackers about your post was your ridiculous assertion that lap dancing clubs and strippers are not actually part of the sex industry. That has been refuted (with clear evidence) by several posters on here so I think that is pretty much cleared up.

The fact that you go to a pub you don't really like just to hang our with your lecherous friends who want to look at strippers says a great deal about you! The fact that your wife drops you off at said pub does not mean that she is happy about it does it?

And you go to a pub that has strippers - you are a punter aren't you?

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 14:35:11

You resort to childish name-calling, calling people low-lives and i'm the one who is immature? If you haven't vetted his friends how do you know if they're punters or not? The truth is you don't know, there is nothing combative or confrontational about that.

Countrykitten, just because for the purpose of licensing it's called part of the sex industry doesn't mean i have to agree with the definition, to me there's nothing sexual about me being there. If you want to call me a punter go ahead. You often see women in there with their partners, i wouldn't call them punters either but i guess you would.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 14:36:58

verbal - people who go to strip clubs and people that own strips clubs all try to normalise it. They always try to make out that all men go to them. This allows seedy men, like your mates, to feel ok about leering at strippers dancers - because everyone does it. It makes women into sexual objects - just a pretty decoration in a bar, something to leer at, or ignore while you watch the match.

Ask yourself how you'd feel if one saturday you glanced over and saw all your single mates leering over your OH. Or your daughter.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 14:44:27

Stripping isn't sexual? Lapdancing isn't sexual? I find Sabrina's comments spot on and also I find it almost sinister that you are trying to normalise your tacky behaviour.

If this is the case - why do your friends go there? You have already said yourself it is to look at the strippers - do you still argue that this is non sexual? Why do they want to look at the naked women then?

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 14:58:08

I've never made out all men go there or that everyone does it and no i wouldn't like anyone leering at my OH but then she isn't a stripper and doesn't get paid to be leered at. Having been there i don't think it has made me view women as sexual objects and i know for a fact if i did treat women in that way my OH would have something to say about it.

Country i said it wasn't sexual to me, not to the whole of mankind but maybe that's because i'm not taking that much notice and no i haven't conducted a poll to ask other men why they go there. That's their business, they're grown ups and can make their own decisions.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 15:00:15

It's not childish name calling, it's my estimation of men who objectify women. It's my belief that they're low lives.

I also don't understand your point about vetting people's friends. Grown ups don't need other people to vet their friends for them, they're perfectly capable of making their own choices. If I make friends with someone who goes to lapdancing clubs and doesn't tell me about it, then he's misleading me as to his values isn't he, so he's a liar. What's your point?

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 15:10:48

So, just to be clear - stripping /lapdancing is non-sexual to you. Do yo concede that it is sexual for other men who attend these places?

Also - your only objection to your OH being leered at by men when stripping is that she is not paid to be a stripper. Soooo - if she WAS paid to strip you would presumably be happy with it? If not - why not?

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 15:16:44

Fucktidia, you interview potential friends and ask them their views on strip clubs? It seems strange that in your estimation people are low-lives casting judgement on them and in the very next sentence say grown ups are capable of making their own choices. If the strippers and the punters are grown ups and free to make their own decisions and are both doing something perfectly legal who are you to judge them, nobody is forced to do strip or watch. I don't seek to impose my views on anyone else.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 03-Apr-13 15:18:02

Verbal, what do these strippers at the pub actually do as part of their act?

Im trying to get my head around a world where going to a pub to watch strippers and football is deemed a normal Saturday afternoon out, I'm pretty shocked that pubs are allowed to have strippers.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 15:21:52

And I am awaiting an answer to my question re your OH and stripping for money?

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 15:22:20

Or your DD - or any woman you love....

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 15:23:47

Or am I right in thinking that it's ok for 'other women' to do this - but not your OH/DD whatever....if this is the case, why?

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 15:31:13

Country i was only explaining my own experience to try and show not everything is as black and white as some might think. I can't be held responsible for what other men think.

As we're both middle aged and employed and comfortable we've never been in a position where we'd have to consider stripping as a job so it's difficult to answer that honestly. But i wouldn't want to stop anyone else making a good living by stripping if that's what they wanted to do, i don't seek to impose my views or values on anyone else.

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 15:34:40

Bela, they stand on a stage and strip and dance while a bunch of idiots gather around at shout at them. It is a town centre pub but obviously not a family pub, nobody can see inside and it's not as unusual as you might think.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 15:40:26

Having been there i don't think it has made me view women as sexual objects

You are. By going into a club which has strippers you are viewing and condoning the use of women as sexual objects. You said it yourself - they're just in the background while you watch the match, and your mates are leering at them.

In fact, you've normalised this to yourself so much, that you don't even see it as a sexual thing any more. confused It's part of your sphere of normality to have women stripping for men's titillation while you watch the match. Even though in your first post here you said 'men like to be aroused by strippers' - you still think it's not a sexual thing?

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 15:46:20


Yes every time I take on a new friend, I get them to fill in a questionnaire about their political and ethical positions. I employ an equal opportunity policy, those with the highest marks get through to the next round of interviewing.

I don't see where the contradiction is between saying that people are grown ups and capable of making their own choices and saying that people are low lives. Some people make the choice to be low lives, why is that incompatible with seeing them as autonomous beings?

What are you saying? That I have no right to choose not to be friends or lovers with people whose ethics and values directly contradict my own? I don't think people who go to strip clubs should be sent to prison (unless they're committing criminal actions which deserve a prison sentence, obv), I just don't want to live with them or be friends with them. In the same way that I wouldn't want to live with racists, or people who didn't read books ever, or were alcoholics, or wanted to keep pet snakes. We all have things we prefer not to live with or be around. What's your problem with that?

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 15:48:25

Sorry sabrina but i just don't agree, you may as well say by being in a pub i condone brewery's turning people into alcoholics, they are all adults free to do as they choose. Maybe some of the men do have an unhealthy view of women, but i wouldn't say that applied to all men simply because they are there, or that stripping is to blame for their twisted view. some men view shoes as a sexual thing but you wouldn't suggest we ban them, you can't take a stance against something just because you disagree with the views of a minority who have a problem.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 03-Apr-13 15:49:55

Well it's unusual to me, although grim is more the word I'd use for it.
I'm very glad I don't know any men who would think this was a normal thing to do - as for the idiots who gather round and shout at the strippers , they really are low-life scum, thankfully most men aren't like this.

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 15:52:14

fucktidia, my problem is while you talk about your freedom of choice to choose your friends you don't seem to agree that others should have the freedom of choice to take their clothes off for a living if they wish or that others should have the freedom to watch. It seems people have the freedom to do what they like as long as you say it's ok.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 15:55:54

Dear Lord! Cross-posted with verbal there. You actually willingly spend time in a place like that, when you're not even interested in the stripers??

Of course the beer's awful - punters aren't there for the beer! They're there for the nekkid ladies.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 15:56:17

*strippers not stripers grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 16:00:08

^ Sorry sabrina but i just don't agree, you may as well say by being in a pub i condone brewery's turning people into alcoholics^

No, it's not the same at all. But it is a very typical example of someone trying to minimise or justify their patronage of such places. You're willingly partaking of the objectification of women in the sex industry - strip clubs are part of the sex industry whether you like it or not.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 16:00:32

Have I said that people shouldn't have the freedom to take their clothes off for a living and that other people shouldn't have the freedom to watch them, verbalpunchbag?

I haven't said that, have I? I've just said that I reserve the right not to go to bed with them, live with them or be their friends.

The OP isn't asking about whether strip clubs should be banned. She's asking about what we would do if our partners visited them.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 16:03:46

As it happens, I think that when men and women are equal and women have the same economic choices as men and men have stopped raping and sexually assaulting us in the numbers they do and paying us less for the same job and objectifying us and treating us as less human than them, then everyone should be able to take their clothes off for money if they want and everyone else should be able to watch them.

I doubt if so many would choose to do either though.

Men who pretend that women take their clothes off for a living are doing so from an equal playing field with men, are some of the sorts of men I choose not to associate with in RL. grin

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 16:06:45

Among the myriad other sorts of men I choose to be blissfully free from...

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 16:26:37

I see fucktidia, because men and women aren't equal that gives you the right to take the moral high ground and judge everyone else by your moral values?

And come the day when men and women are equal stripping will become acceptable, will no longer be seedy, woman will no longer be objectified and punters will no longer be low-lives? How bizarre!

It's interesting to note that when i mentioned i have seen women in the pub that fact was glossed over and didn't warrant a mention, no accusations of willingly partaking in the objectification of women and no criticism of the strippers themselves.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 16:30:58

You dodged my question verbal but that's ok because I think we all know that you would be mortified if your wife decided to strip for money in a seedy club or your daughter did it to make some cash whilst going through university. That's for 'other' women to do isn't it?

What is not normal is spending time every Saturday before the match in a strip club drinking shit beer just because your mates like to watch strippers. Strippers who are someone's daughter, sister, grandchild. How bloody sad.

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 16:36:12

Country, i'm sure i said i couldn't give an honest answer because i've never been in the position where that would be considered. I don't pretend girls leave school dreaming of being strippers although it's possible i suppose, or that strippers wouldn't rather be doing something else. That doesn't mean i would deny them the opportunity to make their own choices.

itsasmallworldisntit Wed 03-Apr-13 16:40:04

If you guys put just 10% of the effort into your relationships, as you do in complaining about men on here, we would all live in a happier world!

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 16:40:10

Yes ok - you are trying to move the question on to one of choice. So would you be ok with a daughter (hypothetically of course) of yours being one of those girls on the stage in the pub you frequent - if it was her choice?

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 16:41:45

itsasmallworld I assume that you are a man who is incapable of debate which at least verbal is participating in. Your comment makes me sad for your wife (if you have one).

I don't no how films etc was brought up I've only skimmed over comments, will read properly tonight, But seriously watching Kate Winslet with her kit of on TV with DH is a rather different scenario, If Kate Winslet sat on him in the nude I'd want to slap her too!
He can look all he wants but touching is a no go!

Anyway, I have decided I am going to give us a try, We r taking it slowly he is not moving in right away, where going to go on a few dates and maybe have a few sleepovers and just start fresh, spice things up. Thanks for most all of your advice smile x

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 16:56:30

Of course I judge people by my own moral standards, whose else am I going to judge them by? Someone else's? Your's frinstance?

Everyone judges who they want to have as friends, lovers and co-habitants. you appear to be wrestling with the idea that women have the right to not have anything to do with men they consider a bit crap.

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 16:57:13

Country i don't have a daughter and i'm sure i'd be disappointed if she chose to do that but i wouldn't try to stop her it would be her choice. Not that i think daughters proudly tell their parents they strip for a living.

In regards to itsasmalls comment, i have wondered just how many posters on here like yourself who speak so forthrightly about these issues and the inequality between men and women actively try to change things. I don't mean commenting on here or even waving a placard but are maybe members of a political party and are active in it? I suspect very few.

Verbalpunchbag Wed 03-Apr-13 17:00:59

Who's to say that everyone else must live by your moral standards? I'm not the one judging everybody else. I'm not wrestling with that at all, i'm the one that said people are free to make their own choices in life, that includes strippers, punters and even you.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 17:04:25

That's a very odd assumption to make isn't it?

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 17:04:42

Women: you have no right to comment on anything or have opinions on anything unless you are politically active.

Actually a few of us are.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 17:08:00

I've not said everyone should live by my moral standards have I.

Just that I won't be fucking them if they don't.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 17:11:00

verbal you are posting in a bit of a weaselly way. You started off by asking if women really thought this LDC incident was something to get upset about, then you said that LDCs and stripping were not sexual and compared them to films and topless sunbathing. You moved on hastily to say that actually it's all about choice and now you are having a pop at posters on here because in your opinion we are all keyboard warriors!

Problem is that each argument you make you lose.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 17:12:09

everything so glad that you are in a place where you feel you can give it a go. It must be tough and I send you my best. flowers

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 17:14:44

At least your DH knows what he did was hurtful,thoughtless and disrespectful and he will have learned from this how much you all mean to him and how close he came to losing everything.

It seems that some men can't see anything wrong with this kind of behaviour at all and that is scary.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 19:04:26

Glad you're working it through OP.

He'll show you more respect in future

ChairmanWow Wed 03-Apr-13 19:13:32

* I don't mean commenting on here or even waving a placard but are maybe members of a political party and are active in it? I suspect very few.*

Me. Do lots of stuff on equal pay. It would be great to see more politically active women. However many on here are struggling with work-life balance so you'll find some who simply don't have the time. They're still entitled to an opinion. Do you withhold a view on anything you don't have direct experience of? I doubt it.

I wonder how you'd feel if MNers political activity of choice was to turn up outside your pub to protest about its use of strippers hmm.

Also, you mention there are women in the pub. I'm guessing in small numbers, and I'm guessing some may not be 100% happy but keeping quiet for the sake of their group/partner. But yes, some women do participate as punters. It doesn't make the sex industry and less demeaning and doesn't introduce any element of equality given the vast majority of consumers are men.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 19:37:58

Hi, dont worry about this. Loads of blokes I work with do all this for a laugh quite often, means nothing. My ex husband used to (thats not why i left him by the way) I thought it was quite funny. Its a bloke thing. I am saying this in a nice way so please dont take it any other way. You need to forget it. If you felt secure in yourself you would laugh it off and not give a monkeys. Take it from a woman that knows. Hope you ok.

BelaLugosisShed Wed 03-Apr-13 19:51:37

It's not a "bloke" thing, it's a sleazy misogynist thing , decent men who like and respect women don't do it.

"If you felt secure in yourself you would laugh it off and not give a monkeys" - utter, utter rubbish.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 20:16:43

I think you are going over the top. Sorry to say. At the end of the day he was with his mates having a laugh. Did he shag her? Its no different from you and I (as women) going to a 1980's strip night with our mates screaming our heads off laughing when some bloke flops his nob out on your shoulder. It was a laugh. I think you must be insecure. Sorry to be harsh but think you need to leave it. I work in city of london and blokes and women go to these clubs all the time. Its no big deal. Its not an affair ITS A LAUGH. Please for your own peace of mind let it go!

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 20:16:43

That's the other technique sex industry supporters will use - imply that women who are opposed to it, are insecure and so it's their problem.

Very clever.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 20:17:38

The "forget it babe, it's just a laugh, boys will be boys" response again. Some women don't want to put up with bad behaviour within their relationship, villagebird.

I think OP has shown her dh that she is not willing to put up with that shit - and good for her - it need not be the end of her relationship - but she is now establishing her boundaries.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 20:17:44

villagebird the OP is working this out with her DP and your advice is inappropriate.

You do not have the right to tell another woman that her feelings are invalid, it's shit.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 20:24:34

Its no different from you and I (as women) going to a 1980's strip night with our mates screaming our heads off laughing when some bloke flops his nob out on your shoulder.

Never done that. Have you Fucktidia? grin

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 20:28:58

That was serious btw - I really never have been to see male strippers. It's not my idea of a laugh.

I'll wager that women that argue against strip clubs are not the type to go and see dreamboys or whoever. It would be a tad hypocritical.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 20:33:09

I never once said her feelings are invalid. Of course they are important. I work in very male environment and I can tell you the majority of men. Decent or not would give their right arm for a lap dance. Rightly or wrongly. At the end of the day whats the harm, he's not shagged her. If she is working stuff out with her dp thats great. But she needs to try and move forward with him. I dont support the sex industry at all. I think its awful. But at the end of the day, I dont care what any of you say blokes love a stripper. Decent bloke or not its a fact. And the so called 'pillars of the community' are the worst. I hope she works it out with him.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 20:37:08

Blimey don't you remember the dreamboys in the 1980's. Was all the rage back then. When some of us were in our early 20's having a laugh!!!! when we were younger.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 20:54:47

I like a laugh - but that's not my idea of a laugh - sorry!

villagebird - I suggest you give the thread a little read through - it's blatantly obvious you haven't read it if you're going to start with the 'all men love strippers' thing again. It's a bit tedious to go through it all again.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 20:59:39

Was my idea of a laugh in the 80's. Now I would run a mile.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 21:09:21

Well male strippers have never been my idea of a laugh tbh - sleazy and horrible.

Why oh why do women defend men's dreadful behaviour (it's only a laugh, she didn't shag him) and then in the next breath attack other women (you must be insecure).

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 21:23:20

I dont recall attacking anyone. Just trying to make someone see sense. At the end of the day men are animals and always will be. Im not insecure at all, quite the opposite. I work with some of the most 'respectable' men you could meet. I know what they get up to as I have seen them in action. My ex dh his mates got him a lap/dancer stripper for his stag do. Pictures on the internet and talk of the City. I didnt give a toss because im secure in myself. She was just some old tart getting paid to giggle her tits around. Got to feel sorry for her really. And i left him because he was a drunk by the way. Most of you on here prob have got blokes that go and see strippers or watch porn when your not around. Whats the big deal. Dont be fooled by some 'nice lovely respectable chappy'. They are the worst sort. Im not defending men at all, but some of you women need to stop being wet and get a grip. Toughen up and stop being weak. Men hate it.

Sunnywithshowers Wed 03-Apr-13 21:36:13

villagebird, it sounds like you don't like women very much: 'some old tart', 'toughen up'.

You don't speak for all men (or women).

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 21:39:15

Oh god.

Read the thread.

Toughen up and stop being weak because men hate it?

Has it ever occurred to you that it is actually possible for a woman to live her life as if the most important thing about it is not whether men like her or not?

I don't give a flying fuck if men like me or not. I suspect that I'm not that keen on the ones who don't like me, I don't need male approval to be happy. Frightening, I know. Imagine if all women felt like that: men would have to shape up or go back to using violence to keep women under control.

And er, no I've never gone to see a male stripper. Not my idea of entertainment.

And you work in the city, which is full of sexist wankers, of course you think all men are like that.

Read the thread to get the arguments, we've been through all this.


SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 21:43:52

I'm sorry you move in social circles that give you such a poor opinion of men and women, villagebird.

I've worked in the city too - and ime it's a total myth that all the men go to strip clubs. Some do - it always tends to be the same ones (unless they can persuade some poor sod with a wife and kids at home to go one night - "just for a laugh like") and they're always the type that are "quietly" misogynistic. Not overtly - but just subtly - ie. they can't relate to women as their equals, don't think women's opinions are as valid as men's, are dismissive of females doing the same job as them etc etc.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 21:49:50

Of course I like women. But alot of them are wet and weak and need to toughen up. I dont think any woman needs male approval at all. You are totally missing the point. Not all men are wankers. Alot are though. Pretend to their wives and girlfriends they are lovely. See it all the time. Bullshitting down the phone. Its pathetic. And yes SUNNYWITHSHOWERS. they are tarts. Or are they nice girls? Anyway time to end this. You obviously live very blinkered lives.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 21:51:40

Well villagebird all your last post has done is make me feel sorry for you. I cannot imagine living with such a bizarre mindset about men and women - you seem to have a very low opinion of both.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 21:54:59

SABRINA I see all sorts of people every day. All types from different social circles etc. I see how men and women work. I dont have a poor opinion of men/women. Its CERTAIN PEOPLE I have a poor opinion of. And of course men in the City dont relate to women as their equals. Never will. Its a mans world up there no matter what a woman does. Always will be. And does that really matter. Who cares.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 21:58:57

COUNTRYKIITTEN read my last post. 'CERTAIN PEOPLE' Come telling me there are not certain types of men/women that you have opinions of. We all do.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 22:11:04

I reserve my contempt for the men who feel entitled to objectify women, not the women who are groomed to believe that self-objectification is empowerment.

I look at the power relationship and come down on the side of the one with least power.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 22:17:23

VILLAGEBIRD - You may have bought into the "men-are-all-animals" "men-all-like-strippers" type myths, but we haven't. You may like to think you have more experience of people from different social circles than me - but I don't know how could could possibly know that.

Its a great shame that you are so accepting women not being considered equals in so many professions/walks of life:

"And of course men in the City dont relate to women as their equals. Never will. Its a mans world up there no matter what a woman does. Always will be. And does that really matter. Who cares."

Well I care. I think it really matters. It matters for me, for my sisters, for my daughter, and any future granddaughters I may have. And I think it's much more likely to happen if women aren't seen as decorative sex objects to gratify men, and if we recognise the men who do patronise strip clubs, and the like, as the misogynists they are. That's not the only thing that needs to change - but it'll help.

bp300 Wed 03-Apr-13 22:53:50

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 17:14:44
At least your DH knows what he did was hurtful,thoughtless and disrespectful and he will have learned from this how much you all mean to him and how close he came to losing everything.

It seems that some men can't see anything wrong with this kind of behaviour at all and that is scary.
I disagree with this. The OP's said that her husband has said that what he did was cheating and has apologised for this. If he really believes this then he has deliberately gone out and cheated on her which is the worst thing he can do.
I personally don't think it is cheating but I would never go out and do something that I thought was cheating.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 22:57:58

bp300 I am not sure what your point is - what don't you agree with?

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 22:59:52

God you all sound like a right bunch of lefties. Equality blah blah blah . I take it you are the type that if a bloke in the office said to you 'nice tits' you would report him to HR.

This is hilarious - are you a school teacher by the way or a social worker

I reserve my contempt for the men who feel entitled to objectify women, not the women who are groomed to believe that self-objectification is empowerment.

I look at the power relationship and come down on the side of the one with least power.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 23:02:04

Also I cannot believe the husband said that what he did was cheating!! He sounds like a wet weekend that needs to 'grow some'. This thread is a joke please tell me.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 23:02:50

No, I'm not a school teacher or a social worker.

And yes, you're damn right that if a man in my office made remarks about my body, I'd slam a complaint into the HR office.

Because er, I think I've got the right to work in an office where I'm treated with the same respect a man is.

You've internalised the attitudes of a very misogynist workplace as a self-defence mechanism.

I feel sorry for you. Some of us don't have to put up with shit from men. And we don't have to pretend that shit isn't shit.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 23:03:25

Ah, are we threatening your denial villagebird

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 23:04:35

Hahaha - now I KNOW you are joking.

I expect you would only get HR involved if someone said 'saggy tits' as you walked past....?

And I don't know about Fucktidia but I'm a teacher - what of it?

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 23:06:17

Some very damaged women on here - Eyes and now more weirdness in the form of village.

bp300 Wed 03-Apr-13 23:07:34

Countrykitten - what I read from your post that what the OP has done isn't as bad as someone who sees nothing wrong with going to strip clubs because he is sorry. Surely if you think going to a strip club is cheating and you go to a strip club this is much worse than someone who thinks theres nothing wrong with going to a strip club going to one.

RatPants Wed 03-Apr-13 23:08:44

"Equality blah blah blah"



countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 23:14:00

I am not excusing the dh of the OP but in my post I was trying to comfort her and make her feel ok about the fact that she is letting him back in to her life albeit slowly.

You have probably not helped in this. Try and be a little more thoughtful?

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 23:14:13

Fucktidia. Oh dear so politically correct. You would not last 5 minutes in the City. Think you would be laughed out actually. So you all go out for 3 hour lunch in wine bar, get bit pissed and bloke says nice tits and you run to HR like a twat. Oh dear. So you would not for example say to him 'p off u nob' or simlar and just laugh iit off, as everyone else is standing there men/women laughing thinking it funny. You would make official complaint? Please say you wouldnt.

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 23:16:40

May I just point out that you said 'in the office' - different scenario.

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 23:18:00

Actually I worked in a very similar environment to that - sexist, misogynist, creepy - for about 12 years and had a very successful career before I escaped.

The difference between working with decent people and shits like that, is wonderful.

I look forward to work every day now. smile

FucktidiaBollockberry Wed 03-Apr-13 23:18:56

Yes, a drunken lunch and the office is a different environment.

But tbh, all the men I work with wouldn't say "Nice tits" at a drunken lunch either - they're adults, not nobs.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Wed 03-Apr-13 23:19:31

God you all sound like a right bunch of lefties.

Yup. And? Oh, I get it - you have lost the argument so you now have to get personal?

Equality blah blah blah . I take it you are the type that if a bloke in the office said to you 'nice tits' you would report him to HR.

Believe me, I've had worse than that said/done to me at work. Why are you so down on equality (blah blah blah)? Do you feel inferior to men?

bp300 Wed 03-Apr-13 23:21:31

countrykitten Wed 03-Apr-13 23:14:00
I am not excusing the dh of the OP but in my post I was trying to comfort her and make her feel ok about the fact that she is letting him back in to her life albeit slowly.

You have probably not helped in this. Try and be a little more thoughtful?
This is my point though, there are too many people in denial. It is obvious that most blokes don't see anything wrong with going to a strip club in comparison to a majority of women against against it. The figures just don't add up. People need to be more honest and just accept that a vast majority of men do see nothing wrong with going to a strip club, that just the way it is. Personally I don't think the OP should even consider ending her relationship for something like this which is fairly trivial.

villagebird Wed 03-Apr-13 23:22:50

CountryKitten. Not weird please. I just see th