To think its completely outrageous for the govt to not include internet access as a necessity on the voucher programme when

(504 Posts)

they are now demanding all benefit applications and correspondence has to be online? I think it is disgusting. Its pushing already marginalised and often vulnerable people beyond the edge. In our Borough over 20% of folk do not have internet access. These people are generally the poor, the foreign, those with MH issues. Is this just another step to ensure the poorest most vulnerable members of society have no voice or access to services?

eastertubby Thu 28-Mar-13 13:48:38

In our Borough over 20% of folk do not have internet access.

Do your local libraries and support centres not provide access? Genuine question, my local library is open 7 days a week (although, there are 4 half-days where they are closed in the morning) and have several computers available to book for up to an hour each, 30 minutes on the couple of non-bookable ones where it's first come first served.

Scholes34 Thu 28-Mar-13 13:50:04

Whilst I agree that too many things can only be accessed on-line and little thought is given to people without access to a computer at home, you can go to a library to access the internet (whilst we still have libraries).

mummabug Thu 28-Mar-13 13:50:42

I agree with you OP it is disgusting. Many people cannot make it to their local libraries wether it be due to mental health or disabilities. Way to make the vulnerable even more isolated.

mummabug Thu 28-Mar-13 13:51:04

*physical disability, rather.

BitsyVonMuffling Thu 28-Mar-13 13:52:03

I thought about library access too OP, but now I remember they are shutting great swathes of those too. It's a difficult one. I think online applications are a good thing, but not at the exclusion of postal claims. EVen my parents struggle with their computer and they're in their early 50s. I think the voucher thing is a redherring though, it's for a one off payment in an emergency. I don't think owing for an internet connection would necessarily be classed as an emergency. But I think the very fact they can deem what is and isn't appropriate to spend that money on is outrageous. Further demonisation of the poor as drinking, smoking, feckless idiots.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 28-Mar-13 13:53:15

There are also security issues with shared use computers.

OP, you are completely correct, but of course the less people who manage to apply for benefits the better....

mummabug Thu 28-Mar-13 13:53:20

Where I am, you have to get on a bus which takes 40 minutes to get you into the centre of town, then it's a 10 minute walk to the nearest library. What planet are people living on, that's a marathon and impossible for many.

dashoflime Thu 28-Mar-13 13:54:12

Thats true, but libraries can be busy and time limited. Also, many have had their funding cut. Its out of order to place extra demands on infrastructure while also cutting it. YANBU

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 13:54:53

It does seem very contradictory sad

We offer Internet access at the library, but when you consider it's £2.50 for an hour's access, or you can pay £25 for a year. If you don't live near the town centre it's £2.10 each way for bus fare.

People on JSA get 3 months free Internet at our library but not everyone in poverty is on JSA.

junkcollector Thu 28-Mar-13 13:54:56

Yanbu at all. Do you have a link? Let's hope all the libraries don't close....

As an aside, I woke up filled with rage at the government this morning after a conversation with one of the governors at a school near where we live. As there are a lot of children from poorer families at the school The governing body and school management have had to get together a special committee to look at the effects that benefits cuts will have on their children and families. They are also concerned that lots of their children will have to move away to 'cheaper' areas because they can no longer afford to live here (suburb of London, which until recently wasn't exactly posh!).

ArseAche Thu 28-Mar-13 13:55:22

ItsAllGoing -I expect there is someting like that behind this. And if one does apply online, then it will be presumed they have enough money to live on because they can afford internet!

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 13:55:42

Sorry for dodgy grammar above. Hope it made sense.

Libraries are closing, resources are stretched. And, this information is very confidential so people probably should not be accessing it on a public computer.

YANBU OP.

Geeklover Thu 28-Mar-13 13:56:36

Is it ludicrous or is it ludicrous they are removing the option of postal claims?
I live in an area that this could affect a lot of people. You can use computers at the library but mine isn't open every day. Or you can use the computers at the jobcentre for this purpose. The nearest one to me is 4 miles away only accessible by a rural and already massively cut bus route.

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 13:57:06

Oh and of course even if you have the money to get to and use library Internet facilities... you can't if you are severely disabled and housebound.

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 13:59:19

X post sorry

Its hard enough to engage with benefit services. and the get any kind of continuity on an issue. Many people simply don't know about libraries having computers, and at my local ones, they charge. I would think if you were so on your uppers you needed a social loan delivered by vouchers you probably desperately need to engage with benefit providers. And what about kids? So much homework is dependendent on having a PC and a printer. Its not always possible to get onto to school ones, (big queues, wonder why that is?) we driving even more of a wedge. children should not be penalised for their parents unfortunate circumstances. but of course they are.

junkcollector Thu 28-Mar-13 14:03:07
TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:18:21

I don't think it is outrageous - unless it is for the disabled or those with MH issues. If you happen to need to take a 40min bus journey to get to your nearest library, how is that my problem? At what point will those who are able-bodied with no MH issues take responsibility for themselves? If you live that far out then move! So tired of people thinking the Govt. has a bottomless pit of money to use.

Two bras. Loving the empathy there. not saying the govt has a bottomless pit I am saying that they should not wilfully disenfranchise the most vulnerable people from engaging with their services. Let alone the disgusting fact that sanitary protection is not included either. How to make yourself feel great when life is a bit shit....fashion a sanitary pad out of value toilet paper.

SunflowersSmile Thu 28-Mar-13 14:23:16

Libraries near us are bit of a trek and also very odd opening hours. Not full time at all. Also computers limited and in high demand because of ever declining library hours.

It costs money to move. It costs money to take the bus. It costs money to use the internet at most locations.

It is my problem because I live in a society.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:27:40

I said unless it is for the disabled or those with MH issues Did you miss that? I understand if you did.
There is also internet cafes/shopping centres etc.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:28:51

Oh come on Terry lots of places are free! McDonalds is free for WiFi!

Roseformeplease Thu 28-Mar-13 14:30:54

Sorry, I disagree. Many job applicants are not getting jobs because they are unable to apply online. However, rather than learning to use a computer or attending classes, they sometimes use this as an excuse for not applying for jobs. It is a vicious cycle in which they remain trapped on benefits because they can't apply for jobs. There needs to be free training and some further thought put into places where computer use is available (job centres?) and a longer lead in might be useful. However, ultimately, it is to the advantage of everyone to learn how to use a computer.

RustyBear Thu 28-Mar-13 14:38:33

"McDonalds is free for WiFi!"

Yes, but you have to be able to afford a device to access it - or are McDonalds providing computers these days?

(Disclaimer:Haven't been to McDs since my youngest was old enough to go by herself, and that's about 10 years)

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 14:40:47

Being able to use free wifi doesn't really help if you don't have a smart phone or laptop to access it through, does it.

The internet is an incredibly valuable thing. It can help people save money (whether through getting free advice on places like MSE, or by researching the cheapest deals, ordering shopping online, accessing information about benefits and rights/responsibilities etc), it can help reduce social isolation, is a one stop shop for most information, internet access + a laptop can replace the need for a TV so it's providing pretty much free entertainment (and when you are utterly broke, that's a good thing).. It can help you find out about free things to do with your kids. The internet would be the last thing I gave up if I was cutting back.

At our local library there is a waiting list for access to the internet. That's a great help when you need to get on ASAP to apply for a crisis loan/voucher/food parcel.

rose you are missing the point. this is about accessing benefits. not getting jobs. and maybe they have PC skills but dont a) have a pc) and b) cant access the internet? In fact in this day and age access to the itnernet is a priority as you yourself point out.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:42:12

There ARE free classes for computer training. Although they aren't free. They are Govt. funded. NOTHING is 'free'. Life is expensive!

McDonalds is free for WiFi

Let them eat cake.

so how do the disabled or those with MH issues access the internet?

Roseformeplease Thu 28-Mar-13 14:43:48

But, if you have to learn to use a computer to access benefits, then that means that your skills are transferrable and you are then able to access a computer to apply for jobs. It makes you more employable and it makes it easier to seek employment. Sometimes people need to be pushed to get skills as, otherwise, the lack of those skills can become an excuse for not working. Some, of course, may never be able to work. However, computer skills will open up the world to them and will help them enormously.

or with poor english skills?

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 14:44:21

It will be an interesting cycle when you have people unable to access the internet, needing to access the government funded courses for IT skills...but not being able to because you need internet access to apply for the courses, and you can only get on the courses if you are in receipt of certain benefits. And you can't get claim those benefits because you need to do the application online...

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:46:00

Yes, but you have to be able to afford a device to access it - or are McDonalds providing computers these days? Don't be sarcastic, it's not necessary.
I understand you need something to access it - but, and please be realistic here - MOST people, whether employed or unemployed have a smart phone. Too many excuses being made in my lowly opinion.

what part of needing a device and the money to pay for even a cup of coffee did not impinge Twobras? a single parent with two small children applies for a crisis loan because benefits have been suspended because she does not have internet access...you thinks she's got money for coffee?

ProfYaffle Thu 28-Mar-13 14:46:49

I'm a volunteer at the CAB, so far as I'm aware CAB's are going to extra funding to install pc's for public use. I think the Job Centres are supposed to have some too. There will also be a telephone helpline, not to apply online but to talk people through the application, step by step.

That's the theory anyway, how it will work in practice remains to be seen.

MansView Thu 28-Mar-13 14:47:43

I agree with the OP - they should have internet access - and while they're at it - a free laptop, sky subscription, oh yeah - and a nice big plasma to go with it...

Maggie111 Thu 28-Mar-13 14:48:20

I'm sorry - but you can go to the local library if you choose not to buy the internet with your benefits.

If the internet is a necessity... then surely a computer is one too?? So people get money for the internet, but no computer...

the fact remains twobras that a substantial portion of society do NOT have internet access, and the corrolation is that that portion is usually the most poor disadvantaged and who are now being told they HAVE to use internet to access services. All your thinking its all excuses does not the change that fact.And while we are at it, will the emergency loan voucher permit the purchasing of phone credit? we are talking real poverty. it exists.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:48:58

so how do the disabled or those with MH issues access the internet?

Are you INTENTIONALLY ignoring the fact that my first post said 'aside from those with MH issues or those that are disabled'?

I have the courtesy to read your posts before replying;please do so with mine.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 14:49:05

We have a project through my work (funded by the local council) that provides laptops (free) and about three months internet access (after that you have to pay for your own access, although we have some funds to help people with that). It has been recognised by the council that internet access, especially for poor, elderly or otherwise vulnerable people can be life changing.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:49:47

what part of needing a device and the money to pay for even a cup of coffee did not impinge Twobras? a single parent with two small children applies for a crisis loan because benefits have been suspended because she does not have internet access...you thinks she's got money for coffee?

She doesn't need to buy a bloody coffee - it is FREE. Jesus...

yes but they still have to access it. the voucher scheme does not differentiate between healthy and not healthy. So what do you propose?

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 14:50:58

It's not free to sit in McDonalds and use their internet. They're a bit funny about people just hanging around inside to keep warm. Like most places!

she has to purchase something to be able to stay on the premises.

usualsuspect Thu 28-Mar-13 14:52:07

How can you not see that this will make some of the poorest peoples lives more difficult?

Or don't they matter?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:52:21

There are Govt. funded agencies who provide laptops/PCs etc to those that need them. It has been going on for years where I am from. If people are on the poverty line they will be looked after - they just need to ask for the help.

I work with people in poverty and those who are doing what I'm sure TwoBras you would approve of, budgeting, don't have smart phones. Because they can't afford them. Or McDonalds. We talk about budgeting for good food, meal planning and eating at home in the class. We don't talk about using your smart phone at McDonalds. Oddly.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:54:16

It's not free to sit in McDonalds and use their internet. They're a bit funny about people just hanging around inside to keep warm. Like most places!

www.mcdonalds.co.uk/ukhome/Restaurants/Free-WiFi.html

It. Is. Free.

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 14:54:43

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Could you just think big picture for a bit? It a government demands engagement through a specific medium, is it fair to deny access to that medium? by virtue of "choices" we are no longer able to make for ourselves regarding spend on a voucher. maybe we have a pc at home. maybe the internet has been switched off, maybe we need that £30 to get back online, access benefits etc

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:55:24

You can sit there till the cows come home - LOADS of students do - getting free WiFi. I promise!

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 14:56:28

Did the jobcentre ever pay for people to have phones in order to get jobs? Sorry but I think that people have to be expected to pay their own way. You can buy a second hand PC for next to nothing these days, and internet dongles aren't exactly expensive. It's up to people to prioritise their spending, and to plan for the future instead of living for the present.

YES!!!

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 14:58:16

I imagine they all buy at least one thing while they are there.

Oh dear. yes. let them eat cake indeed.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:00:45

You cna prioritise your spending till the cows come home, but for quite a lot of people it would a choice between prioritising food and electricity and access to the internet.

Poor people get screwed over all the time (pre pay gas and electricity meters for an example). If you can't afford the bus fair to the library to get on a computer, then what?

I'm sick of this 'every man for himself' attitude these days. Those on the highest horses have the farthest to fall.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:00:51

I imagine they all buy at least one thing while they are there.

They don't need to, but hey, that's the attitude that got them there in the first place. If that is true, then they are dense.

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 15:01:04

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

And actually yes the jobcentre does provide phones free for people to make job applications. havent been down with the peeps recently? second pc for next to nothing? how much would that be? and a dongle? Do you not get how poor many many people are?? eat not heat? heard that phrase? But yeah, people down on their luck are just not thinking hard enough. or are possibly just stupid. or lazy. or a combination of all three. they couldn't possibly just be very very poor at this point in their lives. Oh no.

ohiohello Thu 28-Mar-13 15:01:54

I think this discussion is focusing on the nitty gritty details too much.

A lot of the things being raised (what if they don't have a laptop? What if it's a 40min bus ride to the library? what if the library isn't open that day? what if they can't use computers? and so on) are just distractions.

The only person who's hit the nail on the head about this, IMHO, is the poster who mentioned the point at which we ask people to take responsibility for themselves.

At what point do we step in and say, actually, see the finite pot of cash that we have to dish out laptops, free bus passes, skills training, and so on... that group of people are ones we can't afford to help. Sorry. Whilst this group, are (single illiterate single mum with genuine disability who, say, has no money through a paperwork admin error at the job centre).

It's defining that line between people we can afford to help vs the people we can no longer afford to help which is the key thing.

And yes, there is a line that needs to be drawn, in my opinion - we've been pretending for far too long that the pot is infinite.

usualsuspect Thu 28-Mar-13 15:02:17

What is wrong with some people? 'Next to nothing' not exactly expensive' to you maybe.

Can't you get your thick heads around the fact some people don't have 'next to nothing'

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 15:02:30

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

So you reckon its okay for people to litter a commercial premises with no intention of buying anything while using the internet access the business provides for paying customers? anyone else you thinks its ok to rip off on a daily basis?

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:02:49

They're all just too busy watching their flatscreen TV's and petting their goats to bother with a budget. Obviously.

I may be off topic here but I am really shocked that anyone would need a crisis loan to buy sanpro. Surely you just have stuff, and not suddenly need to borrow money to buy some?

I thought they were for sudden disasters?

RedHelenB Thu 28-Mar-13 15:05:07

Two bras - it is not free. It is there for CUSTOMERS ie those who spend money on drink & food!!!

Do you really imagine they put it there so that non spending welfare claimants can access the internet!!??

The social fund is a tiny tiny portion of the welfare spend. is it strictly vetted. piling more conditions by removing choice over tiny things like prefering to buy your toilet paper (to replace the tampons you are not allowed to buy) at a cheap local shop or market rather than a deal struck with a big retailer like tesco is just demeaning and dehumanising. And however rubbish you think those who do not manage to access the internet are..they exist. ANd have as much right to access government services as anybody else.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:05:59

That sudden disaster might be that all your benefit money has been stopped due to a clerical error. Or you got made redundant and you wont get any job seekers allowance for 4 weeks (due to monthly payments). Or you have a house fire and have no possessions as they are all smoke damaged and you made a choice of food over contents insurance.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:06:30

or are possibly just stupid. or lazy. or a combination of all three.

No - they have just made some stupid decisions in their lives. But hey, someone else will pay for those mistakes!

Truly vulnerable people like those with MH issues, disabilities, who have been abused etc should be very well looked after. Those who can't work out how to get to the library - during their no doubt very busy day - to apply for jobs do not need our help. They don't want it. You can try and help a certain type of person but time and time again it will be thrown in your face with a myriad of excuses - and those are the types of people you are defending. NOT those who actually want and need the help.

You could still get your period in the midst of a sudden disaster. And no, not just for sudden disasters...for when you have exhausted every other avenue. You can only have stuff if you can afford to buy it. I say it again, many people are desperately poor.

Sunnywithshowers Thu 28-Mar-13 15:08:19

YANBU at all.

Around 80% of households have access to the internet - link here.

This means around 20% don't have access to the internet.

Schools routinely expect children to do homework on a computer, and research online. In the near future, government expects all benefit applications to be done online.

Libraries are closing everywhere, so even library computers are harder to find than they were. They are often not free to use. As has been mentioned above, it is highly unsafe to use shared computers for highly personal data - such as that required on benefit applications.

Despite assertions above, not everyone has a smartphone. Nor can they necessarily afford an old pc or dongle, or even know where to start in that respect. It's very sodding hard to plan for the future instead of living in the present on benefits, particularly with bills going up (and council tax benefit being withdrawn / reduced) and income staying the same or going down.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:08:34

Oh my fucking god. TwoBRas I can assure you that a lot of the people I work with have not made stupid decisions. They have had the most hideous of circumstances thrust upon them. But I guess they just need to buck up and get on with things.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

KobayashiMaru Thu 28-Mar-13 15:10:14

Are they really insisting that ALL benefit applications are online? I find that hard to believe. not only do some not have internet access, but what about the people who could do use it even if they did have access? The elderly, those with vision problems, mobility disabilities, and many more reasons?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:10:51

Do you really imagine they put it there so that non spending welfare claimants can access the internet!!??

You didn't really need to explain the definition of a customer to me. I have used the McD WiFi for FREE not even 2 weeks ago. Unless it is different where you are all from then I cannot emphasise this point anymore.

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 15:11:09

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:11:11

Those would be the people that this government could not give less of a shit about kobay

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 15:12:50

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Are people who are poor not vulnerable? are their children not vulnerable? Do you know the outcomes for children living in poverty? Do you have any idea? Do you know the cost to society of that? I doubt it. you seem to be plugged into the feckless poor narrative, and unable to understand poverty is not something visited on the feckless, lazy and entitled. YOU seem a deal more entitled when you are prepared to STEAL internet access from a business.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:13:39

You would be politely asked to leave any McDs round here if you just sat there using the wifi, taking up a table, not buying anything.

Yes they are Kobay.

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Thu 28-Mar-13 15:14:11

Yanbu. I am sickened by the Tory government. Out. Out. Out.

ParsingFancy Thu 28-Mar-13 15:14:22

Actually there's no need to talk about free laptops and bus passes to access services. You just need to not make services online only. That's the problem here.

I know it's "cheaper" to deliver online. It's also cheaper not to install ramps, lifts, induction coils, etc. But if you can't deliver your service to everyone entitled to it, you haven't actually done the job.

It's particularly pointless when discussing benefits to say "apart from the disabled and those with MH problems" because, er, who is disproportionately likely to need these services?

You have to provide means of access, eg phone or face-to-face, to meet legal requirements. What are you going to do then? Police who uses the accessible routes? The equivalent of paying someone to stand at the top of the ramp saying, "Can you provide documentation to prove you need this ramp, madam?"

I'm not sure you have any moral highground here, what with being a self-confessed thief.

But maybe I got it wrong. you used to wifi. having bought food you the money to buy. with money. which you have. righto. but do encourage others to thieve.

I cannot understand this attitude that everyone except the disabled and <insert other group I happen to like> is a scrounger. There is unemployment, there are no jobs. In some areas it is massive unemployment. People aren't skilled enough to do the jobs there are so won't be hired. Do you really think these people and their children should starve?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:16:52

How am I stealing internet access from a business when they offer it for free??? I pay £39 per month for wifi at home. I used it when I ducked in there to check my emails as I was expecting one with....wait for it....a job offer!!!
I HAVE been poor. THAT is why I do not accept the argument that people cannot help themselves. They CAN. But many choose not to and let people like you make their excuses.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:17:14

I suspect that they do actually think that MrsP but don't have the nerve to say it.

Back to the workhouses for all of us.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Thu 28-Mar-13 15:17:31

Yanbu it is shots and yes lots of people have really struggled with needing to phone benefits lines.

There is a poster on mnet at the moment having a nightmare having to phone them and its costing her money she doesn't have, it should be a free phone or local rate number.

Use libraries....ha haha, my local library is only open for a few hours a few days a week. The main library has a few PC's which you can use for 30mins if you book in advance and can get there in the first place.

I thank my lucky stars that I am not in that position, and we are financially OK. But its just a bit of bad luck, an accident, illness etc away for lots of people.

Startail Thu 28-Mar-13 15:18:14

Yes our library has computers, but it's 5 miles away and our public transport is non existent. I don't know if it's free, but Ido know its always really busy.

We have large numbers of East European farm workers who, totally reasonably want to keep in touch with home.

It's not their fault that our library has only got room for three computers in a dark corner upstairs.

DD1 is 15, there have been rumours of a sensible up to date, disabled accessible library, since I moaned I couldn't use the reference section with her pushchair.

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 15:18:23

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

The solution? clearly not to make benefits only available after an online application? keep the telephone and walk in and letter writing? not hard. works now. what you can spend your voucher money on is a whole other thread, and one I beleive has been posted recently.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:19:20

You would be politely asked to leave any McDs round here if you just sat there using the wifi, taking up a table, not buying anything.

I get it, I get it - your McDs is also on the poverty line!!! Ones in Glasgow are not, therefore it is FREE. I think this point has been exhausted.

mummabug Thu 28-Mar-13 15:19:41

twobras how would a person with major physical disability or MH issues manage the 40 min bus journey plus 10 min walk - that is what I was trying to say.

ParsingFancy Thu 28-Mar-13 15:21:14

HillBilly, benefit applications used to be made by walking to the local JobCentre and doing it in person. I believe some stuff could be done by post or actually at Post Offices in rural areas.

Doing everything by phone is a very recent phenomenon, and came after large computer and telecoms systems became cheap enough that call centres were invented.

Which for some of us feels very recent, but for others may have happened while they were in nappies...

You are stealing it because it is a service they pay for for their customers, not randoms dropping in the pick up their email. One of the reasons my business went down was spending hours on the bloody wifi I spent a fortune on while blocking tables and spending nothing.

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 15:21:26

Twobras MOST people, whether employed or unemployed have a smart phone. Too many excuses being made in my lowly opinion.

Do you really believe that? I don't know what world you live in, but most people I know DON'T have smartphones. I don't have one, my teenage daughter doesn't have one, the woman I share my office with doesn't have one, I could go on...
You are clearly lacking the empathy gene, or not living in the real world (or both?)

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:21:53

The tories are 'meanies' for implying that you have no self respect if you can't fend for yourself, whilst taking away all the services that helped people to become for self reliant. They are mean for not getting that there is no point just telling someone to get a job, when there are no fucking jobs! They are mean for doing nothing about forcing businesses to offer more flexible hours so that people aren't prohibited from working due to childcare and other caring commitments. They are mean for preaching about self reliance when they get to put all their day to day living costs through their fucking expenses. They are a bunch of utter utter cunts.

You clearly dont grasp the concept of a "service for PAYING customers"

Sunnywithshowers Thu 28-Mar-13 15:23:20

Are they really insisting that ALL benefit applications are online? I find that hard to believe. not only do some not have internet access, but what about the people who could do use it even if they did have access? The elderly, those with vision problems, mobility disabilities, and many more reasons?

What about them? The government (IIRC) hasn't assessed the impact on these groups.

Link here.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:23:50

Yes the Tories are 'meanies' for expecting people to have a modicum of self-reliance and basic life skills. Change the record. It's getting boring.

Free this, free that, free courses to educate themselves, free public transport passes, free TV license now they want free internet at home.....no wonder this country is skint.

Sunnywithshowers Thu 28-Mar-13 15:23:54

And I agree with what Easilybored said.

ohiohello Thu 28-Mar-13 15:24:54

5 miles to the library?

are you joking?

leaving aside the disabled, which are already supported in terms of bus passes around here, allowances to pay for some of the extra costs they encounter...

What's to stop an average job seeker or crisis loan applicant walking or cycling the 5 miles to the library?

Seriously - are we saying that the average job seeker/crisis loan applicant is unable to walk for 5 miles if they set out on the day knowing they have a very important application to make online?

It's not as if this would be a daily thing, after all.

And what are we saying if the answer is that most of them wouldn't manage this?

Free laptops for all? Free broadband for all?

In other words, digging an even bigger chasm between what you get if you're being directly supported by the government vs. if you're not. And that chasm is big enough IMHO.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:25:32

You clearly dont grasp the concept of a "service for PAYING customers"

You clearly don't grasp the concept of McDonald's WiFi is FREE. Full stop. They want bums on seats. You. Do. Not. Need. To. Buy. Anything.

sweetkitty Thu 28-Mar-13 15:25:35

My Dad is currently unemployed, he's 59 and cannot physically do the job he once did (heavy manual labour plus he would need to go on several courses to get up to date). He has to log into some govt site every 2 days and apply for jobs. He knows there is utterly no chance of getting these jobs but he had to be seen to be actively applying for work which is fair enough. He does have Internet connection but if he didn't it would be difficult to do this.

I can see being on benefits until pension age or in workfare hmm I don't know what the solution is.

Anyway Twobras, you clearly believe in one rule for you who can afford internet access at home( but who feels completely entitled to steal internet access) and another for those in desperate situations. Oh. sorry. they can thieve too.

RedHelenB Thu 28-Mar-13 15:26:44

Twobras - it takes an hour + to fill in a benefit form for JSA (I've done it) & I need documentation with me. Now can you imagine that MacDonalds doesn't mind their restaurant filled up with non paying claimants so their actual customers can't sit down!!?? It is meant for customers, you may get away with it sometimes like going to the loo when no using a restaurants facilities but they have a right to ask you to vacate the premises if you haven't bought anything!!!

I am not going to fight you two bras. I want to thread to concentrate on the pertinent issues, not your sense of entitlement.

Apart from the fact they want PAYING bums on seats. groan.

JakeBullet Thu 28-Mar-13 15:27:52

The poor have knackered the country's finances.....you heard it here first.hmm

Roseformeplease Thu 28-Mar-13 15:28:55

There was a bloke on the (Scottish) news last night who has lost his benefits as he has not applied for jobs online, as required. He is now scrounging from his mother, not the state. He was walking at a brisk pace through the city to get to her flat for his dinner. I just wanted to shout at the computer (in fact I did) LEARN YOU LAZY SOD. Surely, now there is an incentive, he will have to learn. Previously, he clearly didn't bother.

usualsuspect Thu 28-Mar-13 15:28:55

Of course they want you to buy something, why on earth do you think they just want bums on seats?

What an odd thing to think about a buisness.

catsmother Thu 28-Mar-13 15:30:24

Bloody hell - here we go again, the Mumsnet Marie Antoinettes crawling out of the woodwork.

Let them eat cake indeed!

I don't wish, for a minute to diminish the extra difficulty that impoverished people with mental health or disability issues face in accessing the internet, but it's wrong to ignore the problems that many others who don't fall into those categories also have.

As others have said, it's NOT as simple as rocking up to your local library or McDonald's. There are cost issues for many in getting to these places for a start and the bloody answer to that isn't "move" FFS! Locations with the most amenities and facilities tend to cost more to live in - just the thing someone who's already struggling financially wants to consider. That suggestion is an impossibility for many before you even start to consider the wider impact of schooling, loss of support network, employment considerations and so on. Many many libraries now work on reduced hours offering less opportunity to use public PCs - because they're available for fewer hours (which might not fit in with work hours) and when they are available there's more competition to get on them. Any other business offering free WIFI won't take kindly to you using their premises without also buying something (assuming you have some sort of internet device anyway). And yes, some libraries also charge for access anyway.

I love the fact that some people still believe those on the poverty line will be looked after and only have to ask for help. You only have to skim through some of the ongoing threads on here where people are practically destitute and all the asking in the world doesn't alter a thing for them. There's one poster who's disabled, has disabled children and is trying to feed them all on pence per meal.

This latest thing about all apps having to be made online is so similar to many of the other policies being introduced - where it seems to me many people are being set up for a huge fall as conditions are being imposed upon them which they literally can't fulfill - and then they get punished regardless. E.g. (sorry to divert) the bedroom tax, where HB is cut for "over-occupation" yet there are NO smaller properties for people to downsize into - either because they're not available or because landlords won't take HB tenants - so their income reduces as they're "not doing what they should" (even though they can't). And this - it's "claim and correspond online" - even though that'll cost you £5 return on the bus to get to the library and £2.50 to use the PC so your already desperate food budget gets depleted even further. As opposed to a 50p 2nd class stamp .......

And this treatment of disadvantaged people (who could be us next week if we lose our job, suffer an accident etc) should be "our problem" because it's bloody inhumane to treat people like this when they're down on their luck and struggling to meet even the most basic needs for themselves and their families. But hey - those of you who've convinced yourself that being impoverished is something people choose to be - either deliberately, or through their laziness, fecklessness etc can sleep easy and not dig deep to find a little bit of compassion and sympathy because they only have themselves to blame don't they ? Hope you're comfy in your ivory towers.

TwoBras, the wi-fi is Free. For. Paying. Customers. Not. For. Random. People. Off. The. Street. (don't worry, Madame DeFarge, most of us do understand this). If loads of people extracted the urine by using McDonald's wi-fi without buying anything, they may stop providing it.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:31:30

Who exactly do you think gets free public transport and TV license?

You know the vast majority of benefit claimants are employed, right? How about we up the minimum wage to a living wage, get rid of zero hours contracts, stop the chip-chip-chipping away at workers rights that seems to be going on at the minute. Moderate childcare so that it's actually affordable and available at the times it's needed. Put more support in place for the elderly and disabled so that people aren't giving up their jobs and living in poverty just so that they can care for their relatives.

How about everyone just stop thinking that this is something that only happens to the stupid and feckless. It's sickening that people have such little regard for their fellow man these days.

And the welfare bill makes up a tiny proportion of the state's expenditure. And the social fund an even tinier part. So stop saying it's what is making this country broke. That's like saying that the reason you are broke is not because you spend 90% of your income on your rent, it's because you spend 0.2% of your income on food.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:33:05

You are not going to fight as you are fighting a losing argument. Clearly.

Helen I know. I have done it. I sucked it up and got on with it. I budgeted my ASS off so that I could afford internet as I knew I needed it to apply for jobs and I took any job that was going so that I could continue to. Under the tax levy and over the tax levy.

Our Grandmothers would cringe at the 'woe is me' attitude here.

I am aware that it is very different for those in Rural areas, however, you can apply for benefits over the telephone (which Welfare Rights organisations will let you use), at Children's Centre's and in the Job Centre. I work/have worked for many voluntary services and am a SW, the answer is better investment in services. There are many drop in services, which, whilst stretched, can help with benefit applications\advice.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:34:33

TwoBras, the wi-fi is Free. For. Paying. Customers. Not. For. Random. People. Off. The. Street. (don't worry, Madame DeFarge, most of us do understand this). If loads of people extracted the urine by using McDonald's wi-fi without buying anything, they may stop providing it.

Not. Where. I. Am. From.

Maybe, just maybe, where I am from, people can afford the internet at home. I apologise for not being from a poverty ridden estate.

Ok?

Creameggkr Thu 28-Mar-13 15:35:30

My ds lives alone and has just had to give up work as he is waiting for a kidney and it had become too difficult.
He is waiting to hear about DLA but not counting his chickens so in the meantime he gets 71 per week out of which he pays 20 towards his rent and ten to his phone (already had this contract when well and working full time) this leaves him 41 pounds to feed and clothe himself. He should eat a special diet. But really cannot afford it.
So a couple if quid bus fare and a coffee to use the net (surely everyone doesn't have a smart phone?) would be a days food for him.
Seriously I used to be ignorant to the actual reality of living on benefits but my eyes have been well and truly opened.

sweetkitty Thu 28-Mar-13 15:36:09

Agree completely Easilybored well said

That should have included, as well as other places. The most difficult category of people to support is those with MH problems. We are lucky in my city, as we have other organisations as well as the CAB, which provide ongoing support for those who are marginalised.

That should have included, as well as other places. The most difficult category of people to support is those with MH problems. We are lucky in my city, as we have other organisations as well as the CAB, which provide ongoing support for those who are marginalised.

BeCool Thu 28-Mar-13 15:38:17

Even in 20/30/40 years time not all people will use computers, want to use computers or be able to use computers.

Aim for a high number of online applications - fine. But to exclude people because they can't/won't use a computer is wrong.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:38:17

Creameggkr He is one of the ones who SHOULD be looked after. Poor thing. THAT is where our taxed money should be going.

mummabug Thu 28-Mar-13 15:38:32

easilybored and catsmother well said hear hear

cats, that was a marvellous, measured and pertinent post. thank you. And easily..a voice of reason. Clearly FACTS cannot make inroads into PREJUDICES.

"Cream", I am surprised that he does not have a support worker at his hospital, has he enquired?

"Cream", I am surprised that he does not have a support worker at his hospital, has he enquired?

and sunny. the facts. thank you.

catsmother Thu 28-Mar-13 15:41:07

And yes, some people can walk or cycle 5 miles to a library. Not all could. Some libraries are further away. Some people would have young kids with them who couldn't manage the distance (and who of course would sit ever so nice and quiet while their parent spent an hour or more on an online application). Some poor people - shock horror - do actually work and might not be able to get to the library outside work hours. Etc etc etc.

No-one disputes people trying to help themselves when they can and I'm still convinced most people want to do this. But there seems to be absolutely no acknowledgement of the fact that with the best will in the world, not everybody can help themselves, due to a combination of circumstances. There's this one-size-fits-all approach to benefit which takes no account of individual situations.

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 15:42:02

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:43:24

What an odd thing to think about a buisness.

Then complain to them that you think their business approach is wrong. I'm sure they will be wowed with your insights into how the business world works.

Then two bras you have no place on this thread because it is about people who are so poor they are applying to the social fund. and quite possibly live on an estate. or in a hostel. or in private accomodation they are about to be thrown out of... ya know, poverty and shit. don't worry your pretty little head about it.

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 15:43:55

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

usualsuspect Thu 28-Mar-13 15:45:22

Well they wouldn't have much of a business would they? if no one bought anything.

Shinyshoes1 Thu 28-Mar-13 15:45:39

I've got a job , my DP has a job we claim fuck all and we don't own a laptop because we can't afford one . All our Internet usage is done on our phones

None of my 3 children have a laptop they go to the library if the need to get homework done

I personally think it's disgusting that there is even a mention on here of supplying the poor or jobless with Internet access .

Get of your atse and get down the library . We have to

It's giving to the poor and jobless MORE fucking free stuff and yes damn right if I'm resentful

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:45:50

Madame Then you should have stated it was about people living in halfway houses/homeless/hostels. You didn't, so I responded.

Their business approach is not wrong. the fact that you are physically able to abuse that facility rather than acknowledging the thought process behind it says a good deal more about you than it does about their business model, I assure you.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:47:07

Well they wouldn't have much of a business would they? if no one bought anything.

I think Maccas has quite a good business on paper, no? <ooowww>

I said it was about people applying for the social fund. Did I need to specify the accommodation? really? really? You were the one who brought up not living on estates where internet access might be rare.

usualsuspect Thu 28-Mar-13 15:47:47

My local pub provides free wifi, shall I go and sit in there all night without buying a drink?

But the fact remains you are a thief. and think other people should be thieves too.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:48:13

Wages just have not kept up with rent and house prices, or utility bills and council tax and food prices. There is just no way for many many working people to make ends meet without help.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:49:06

Their business approach is not wrong. the fact that you are physically able to abuse that facility rather than acknowledging the thought process behind it says a good deal more about you than it does about their business model, I assure you.

You are trying to offend rather than see the reason where I have stated - many times - that it IS available for those losers who cannot work out how to get to the library to use the internet for free. It says nothing about me other than that I think outside the box to get ahead. Next?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:49:42

My local pub provides free wifi, shall I go and sit in there all night without buying a drink?

Yes.

If you DEMAND that people engage with a service online then you need to be pretty sure that all those entitled to that service can engage with it. Dont make benefits applications only online. job done!

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:51:11

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 15:51:57

Haven't caught up with thread yet so probably repeating but regardless of the accessibility issue I think any type of application system needs more than one input method. Nothing is infallible, especially on computers! By all means aim for as many online applications as possible but to absolutely insist on it is shortsighted. What if the system crashes (as happens now and again with our library system for example - we have backup methods of issuing/recording books etc) - you can't expect people in dire straits to wait for it to be fixed if it could easily just be done with a paper form or over the phone.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:52:38

If you DEMAND that people engage with a service online then you need to be pretty sure that all those entitled to that service can engage with it. Dont make benefits applications only online. job done!

But you can apply for them in the Job Centre. Go twice a week. Job done! Oh no, bu then they will miss out on free internet.....

IT IS NOT FREE! is it paid for by the business. for their customers.

<<Bangs head against wall>>

ok. lets leave that issue now shall we? we shan't agree on it.

The jobcentre is for applying for jobs. Not for processing your benefit applications.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:56:03

The business pays ONE fee per month for unlimited business access. It is the same if 3 people used it or 3000 people used it.

Please bang harder Madame.

So, Ahem. where were we?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 15:57:16

The whole point of this thread was that people needed internet to apply for jobs....!!!!!!! Not benefits!!!!!!

Where are you getting these arguments from?

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 15:57:46

Upping the minimum wage would just make more people unemployable.
Childcare that is affordable? Who pays for this? Muggins?
Getting rid of zero hours contracts? Will this make employers more or less likely to take new people on?

So, based on this logic, clearly what we should all be doing is:
- reducing the minimum wage to make more people employable hmm
- disregarding the fact that childcare costs make it impossible for many people to work, forcing them onto benefits hmm
- putting everyone on a zero hours contract so that employers can treat everyone however the fuck they like while the people on these contracts can be slagged off for 'not planning', 'not living within their means' and make themselves ineligible for any kind of help because in theory they are employed under a contract while in practice they are earning the square root of fuck all.

Try to see the bigger picture!

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 15:58:41

Those losers who cannot work out how to get to the library?

Have you read an of the points at all? Libraries are closing left right and centre. There are waiting lists at some libraries for internet access. It's not even very safe to use a public computer (which may well be in view of other people while you are inputting personal and private information) for some things. Some libraries charge for the use of the computer. Some people would have to pay to get public transport to get to the library. Or buy a bike. Or walk for 15 miles in the snow because, hell, if you you did it, it must be fine.

MOST BENEFIT CLAIMANTS WORK. So getting to a library to use their limited computer facilities in order to claim benefits to top up their low wages needs to be done outside of their working hours. When libraries might not even be open. And they get to drag their kids along as well possibly.

I am not saying that all people who are poor should get free internet. What I am saying is that the internet is becoming a necessity these days, and a lack of access to the internet is a marker of deprivation. This needs to be recognised and people might need to be helped to access it. And the government decreeing that a service can only be accessed one particular medium and then not addressing the fact that poverty and deprivation mean that people do not have access to that medium, is fucking stupid.

I refer to to my OP twobras, I specifically stated benefit applications.

KatieMiddleton Thu 28-Mar-13 15:59:12

If you sit taking up space in a restaurant or pub you can be asked to leave. This is why the tramps sleep outside our local McDonalds during opening times because they are not permitted to sit inside unless they are patrons.

My local library has no toilets. There's also a 2 hour time restriction. I had cause to use the computer there for work once when my laptop broke. It was extremely difficult to get any work done due to interruptions and having to keep an eye on the time.

Just a couple of facts for anyone who has not been outside in the real world.

I think I love you, Easily.

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 16:00:14

I don't agree with giving everyone free Internet and computers as that would be open to abuse I guess but I don't think it should be totally compulsory to do it online. Tell people to do it online, but have a number to ring if you can't access the Internet.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:01:40

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Have you reread my OP yet Two? perhaps You. Have. Got. The. Wrong. End. Of. The. Stick.

Thank you fuzzpig. Its just common sense to me!

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 16:03:29

Thank you Madame blush I get so bloody angry about all this. And I'm actually quite comfortable financially. It's just depressing seeing services cut every single day (work closely with local authority) and people who really are working and want to get on (and daviddickfacecameron would say) just get knocked back down again and again.

MansView Thu 28-Mar-13 16:03:34

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:04:01

Tell people to do it online, but have a number to ring if you can't access the Internet. There is.

So the 'real world' only exists if you are in poverty? What a ridiculous statement. That is not the real world - in 2013!

KatieMiddleton Thu 28-Mar-13 16:04:21

Congratulations twobras your post of 16:01 is officially the most stupid thing I've ever read on the Internet.

Well done smile

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:05:10

So a troll is someone with a differing opinion? Ok....

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:05:30

Thanks Katie! smile

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:06:19

So what do you all suggest then? Seriously?

MansView Thu 28-Mar-13 16:06:32

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Yes. I deeply resent having to beg for a bit of money to get by when this time last year I had a great business and employed 12 people. I am 50. I have paid tax and national insurance for over 30 years. being stigmatised a feckless and lazy does not help me get back into the job market. Businesses go to wall. Why push individuals to it as well when they can get back on their feet with a bit of help? 90% people of people on JSA get a job within 12 months of claiming. But I would never steal.

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 16:07:05

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:07:31

A Govt. funded internet accessible only by those earning or claiming X amount of money? It is possible.

"Madame" you can ask to see an advisor as you do not have access to the internet. They then provide, an advisor to make your claim, a telephone or internet access.
Perhaps the extent of choices are not known by enough people and that is the real problem?
"Two" you are right that those in need are "Losers". Western societies create, Winners and Losers. It is then up to those who have some power, still and are decent human beings to challenge the extent on how much the Losers miss out on, entitled income should never be a loss.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 16:07:49

With all the ways out of it?! I'm sorry, what? What ways? Get a shitty low paid job, if you don't have one already. Save your left over pennies each months (if you have any, which lets face it with the cost of housing, childcare, travel and food isn't going to be very often), think you've just about got your feet on the floor and .... your car fails it MOT and all your savings are gone. You mother gets dementia and the care provided by the local authority is so poor you fear for her safety so you have to cut your hours down so you can look after her. You get pregnant and your child has a life long disability. Your partner has an affair and walks out of the family home and dodges their support payments. These are just a handful of examples.

I suppose it's easier in your world where you know that poor people are only poor because they are lazy and make bad choices and if they really didn't want to be poor then they would fix it. So they must like being poor. So fuck them all.

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 16:09:13

Twobras - your 'fucking stupid' comment is beyond 'fucking stupid' in itself, but at least you have finally decided to come out and say that people who find themselves in extreme poverty are there because they're 'fucking stupid', which is probably one of the most odious statements I have ever read.

I was in extreme poverty after leaving an abusive husband. I had no job, a two year old and nowhere to live. How 'fucking stupid' of me. And I even went on the dole for eight months (after paying taxes for around 22 years prior to that) and I even had the audacity to need a crisis loan to buy a second hand cooker. How fucking stupid of me, eh?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:09:26

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Remotecontrolduck Thu 28-Mar-13 16:12:10

Jesus at the attitudes on this thread!! I'm not at all supportive of people living on benefits forever contributing nothing but have some compassion.

Treat them like humans and provide them with internet access to get them back on their feet. It opens up so many opportunities. Stop treating these people like shit who should suffer for even the basics in life.

Very few people scrounge their benefits on fags and booze compared to the number who have genuinely fallen on hard times.

MandragoraWurzelstock Thu 28-Mar-13 16:12:21

'I understand you need something to access it - but, and please be realistic here - MOST people, whether employed or unemployed have a smart phone. Too many excuses being made in my lowly opinion. '

f*cking bollocks to that little gem

It's not worth engaging with someone who actually believes this

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:12:35

So NONE of you had ANY savings of any kind in case the shit hit the fan??? Oh Jesus. Not one of you had any money to fall back on - over TWENTY TWO years woollyideas. THAT is stupid. There is no excuse for that. It is common sense to save even £10 a week for when you may need it.

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 16:13:23

Whereas you, twobras, think a business can survive if it has endless people using its facilities without actually buying anything...

not biting Two.

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 16:15:19

It might be hard to save money if your abusive husband didn't let you access any. The key is in the word abusive.

Everyone I know is really struggling to save now. It's not a case of spending money on luxuries, it's simply getting to the end of the month with everyone fed and all bills paid and having nothing left for any kind of safety net. People, lots and lots and lots of people, are living hand to mouth right now. One minor disaster is all it can take to knock people on their arses.

But I supposed if they had just not fed their least favourite child for a week each month than they wouldn't be stupid and poor.

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 16:15:40

twobras Did you miss the bit about 'leaving an abusive husband'. Do you have any awareness or intelligence at all? When people leave in those circumstances it can take months or years to unravel financial stuff. You are very, very blinkered.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:16:02

woollyideas McDonalds actually has a business plan - hence why it works and is not bankrupt. It takes into account its' future projections and budgets appropriately. Whereas the people here - as is now becoming clear - just spent, spent, spent without thinking of saving a portion of their incomings. It's all getting very clear now.

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 16:16:38

Thanks, easilybored - it's a pity that some people need to have the flaming bleeding obvious pointing out to them, eh?

and lets be fair. most posters have genuinly engaged even if we dont all agree. only a couple seem to want to derail it. progress methinks!

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 16:18:17

Spent spent spent on basic needs like food and shelter. When you are choosing between putting the heating on or buying food, where is this extra money for saving going to come from? Do you not understand what people mean by saying they are poor? Are you just really really stupid, or is it just the way you are coming over in this thread? OR are you just a goady fucker who needs to fuck off back to the Daily Mail comments section where you belong?

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 16:18:48

Yes I know there's a number to phone at the moment because at the moment it's not compulsory to do it online.

If they are saying it will be online only then presumably means they won't be providing the phone line as an alternative. I may have missed somebody saying otherwise (although if they are still providing alternative methods of application then the whole thread is a bit pointless surely?), apologies if so.

You can get people to help you fill in forms, most have a tick box saying "somebody has filled this form in on my behalf", I will be getting help filling in the DLA form I have finally decided to try after months of denial about the declining state of my health. It's not a service that's given out willy nilly though and you need some initiative to get it to happen etc.

No longer sure what point I'm making, sorry <tired>

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 16:19:44

fuzzypig you might need to check that it's DLA you need to apply for, and not PIP (which is being rolled out in some areas soon).

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:20:09

It might be hard to save money if your abusive husband didn't let you access any. The key is in the word abusive.

You would be under the umbrella of 'vulnerable' people that I said about an hour ago SHOULD BE LOOKED AFTER. I have been there. Unless you could not open a bank account to put money into, then you absolutely should be looked after. Yours is a very different situation to what I am talking about. What a prick.

I wouldn't bother exchanging personal stories with "TWO", it will get you no-where.

"Fuzz" there will always be alternative's to applying on-line, the Government just are not very good at keeping people informed and try to fool as many as it can into doing things the way it wants, or miss out.

"Fuzz" there will always be alternative's to applying on-line, the Government just are not very good at keeping people informed and try to fool as many as it can into doing things the way it wants, or miss out.

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 16:23:43

Thank you easily smile - I actually have an appt with the local benefit advisor next week to discuss it all - I've had to dramatically reduce my work hours etc so a massive change in circumstances.

TheChaoGoesMu Thu 28-Mar-13 16:23:56

Does the job club not provide internet access for job applications? <genuine question>

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 16:24:02

Oh, so I would fall into your 'deserving' category, would I? That's nice. I feel almost honoured.

I expect you'd get quite a thrill from sitting on some kind of panel separating out the deserving from the undeserving, the vulnerable from the feckless, wouldn't you?

catsmother Thu 28-Mar-13 16:24:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HortyGal Thu 28-Mar-13 16:24:33

MadameDefarge Thu 28-Mar-13 14:44:20
or with poor english skills?

What do people with poor Spanish skills do in Spain, or those with poor French skills in France?

Basically if they come here they learn the language if they want to access tax payers money.

- am actually pretty proud that I provided employment for 12 people for two years during a recession! go me!

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 16:25:11

I see birds thank you.

HillBilly76 Thu 28-Mar-13 16:25:32

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:26:48

Yes you would. And yes I would. Is that the answer you wanted? I think it was, so I may as well say it.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:27:54

cats Chilling....oooh. No. I just got myself out of shit and got on with it. It can be done.

I had poor french language skills when - lived in France. And worked there too. the bureaucracy was beyond me. Its above language even. Its cultural norms that baffle to the uninitiated.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:30:58

I did ask what suggestions anybody had and to date nobody has come up with any.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 16:34:31

I'd love to know who these people on benefits are (apart from some pensioners) who are getting a free tv license and bus fares.

Some utter bilge posted on this thread, posted by people who live in a bubble with no empathy whatsoever.

there will always be a tiny tiny proportion of society that abuses. for the vast majority it does not apply. we are in danger our losing sight of the values of a civilised society if we demonise the very low waged for doing the jobs we wouldnt touch with a bargepole. very simple progression. you work. you dont earn enough to survive. you seek govt assistance. to survive to work. but why is the govt subsidising the low saleries emploers offer? oh dont worry about that. lets just make the poorly paid suffer a leetle bit more by stigmatising them.

"HillBilly" people do spiral into poverty very quickly and the main reason that I come across (in my paid and voluntary work) is disability. I do budgeting with people and benefit checks and often, people have been denied benefits/insurance payouts when they were entitled. Don't even start me on the sanctioning process by the JC, it is a mess to sort out for us (as welfare advisors), you would have little hope if you tried to do it on your own, with a lower level of eduction\intelligence, whilst grieving or suffering from MH issues.

StuntGirl Thu 28-Mar-13 16:37:04

Some people on this thread are so clueless that it would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 16:38:04

Twobras The fact that you admit you'd get a thrill out of judging the deserving/undeserving etc., speaks volumes. And do you think it would be 'character-building' for those who had to appear before you?

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 16:39:18

YoutheCat I'd love to know who these people on benefits are (apart from some pensioners) who are getting a free tv license and bus fares.

Quite. Still, you can't beat a good old prejudice, eh?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:40:43

Is that the answer you wanted? I think it was, so I may as well say it. You must have misses the last sentence in my post. Don't twist things, it's not good debating form.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 16:40:58

Does Twobras work for ATOS? hmm

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:41:50

So NOBODY who is complaining has come up with a solution. Not one person. Just a lot of whining.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:42:21

I don't know what ATOS is.

MrsVamos Thu 28-Mar-13 16:42:52

YouTheCat

<sniggers>

If I was a heartless bitch, I'd ask TwoBras to come on here so we can all laugh when her glass house crashes down around her.

But I'm not, so I won't. wink

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 16:42:54

Lucky you.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:43:23

American Theatre Organ Society. Eh, no.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 16:43:39

The solution is simple. Don't make benefits applications and job applications dependent on applying online.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:44:59

Why would you think I have a glass house? We live on AU$780 per week at the moment. Only one salary. Not exactly what many of you may be imagining.

I've missed the question, "Two", probably because I am on my phone, What was it?

I've missed the question, "Two", probably because I am on my phone, What was it?

ssd Thu 28-Mar-13 16:48:11

what age are you twobras? you remind me of a child who thinks everything revolves around him, or maybe a teenager who knows EVERYTHING.

you keep telling us you used the wifi in mcdonalds, without the need to buy anything, then you said you used it once when you popped in to check an email. SO do you recognize popping in to use the free wifi once is a bit different to sitting there for hours applying for jobs/benefits, maybe for most of the week? Don't you think this might be viewed a bit differently by the mcdonalds staff?

Actually, I shouldn't be drawn in to a discussion with you, its a bit like telling my child why he can't have everything done to suit him just because he can't see any other way to do it...difference is he's a child, you I guess are an adult...but the narrow minded viewpoint is the same. Strike that, my child is a lot more mature than you seem to be.

You have your answer two bras.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:48:39

I said this, Birds and nobody came up with anything, So what do you all suggest then? Seriously?

About 3 pages ago.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:50:20

ssd As I said ages ago, students use McDs for HOURS at a time. They are not asked to leave. I'm not going to insult you for a fight.

but wasnt aware australian dollars were currency in glasgow. oh go on then TB. tell us the, er, story.

ssd Thu 28-Mar-13 16:53:21

sure they do, macca D's is full of students, the unemployed and low earners all taking up the tables using the free wifi and buying nothing..... and we've all got one at the end of our road hmm

EasilyBored Thu 28-Mar-13 16:54:57

I made quite a few suggestions about how we could improve things, a few pages back.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:55:09

Well done Madame. I will, er, tell you the, er, story. Not much to tell. Moved here 3 weeks ago to be with husband's family.

can we all hold off posting so TB can acknowledge the answer she's been given? several times? Oh, and revealed the australian income in glasgow dilemma?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:56:52

ssd Maccas is full of students as they know they get free wifi. Low earners COULD go there but maybe don't know that they can. I don't know. I'm just stating what is available in terms of internet access. But apparently that means I am stealing....

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:57:30

What's the dilemma Madame?

I can't imagine how you would fill in the forms you need to on a smart phone.

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 16:58:33

Well youthecat I may get a free bus pass if I get DLA. Not that it would help on the days I am too ill to walk to the bus stop grin

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 16:58:35

Do you have a currency calculator Madame? If you're online....you should be able to work that one out.

lashingsofbingeinghere Thu 28-Mar-13 16:59:20

" In 2011/12, £159bn was spent on benefits - an increase of 1.1% on the previous year. That is 23% of all public spending." Source: Guardian.

Tax credits and child benefit accounted for a further £12.22 bn expenditure, distributed through HMRC.

Welfare is not "... a tiny proportion of the state's expenditure."

WTAF is going on in this thread?

It's depressing really, to think there's people out there who think I'm lazy, stupid or both just because the job market is shit, particularly if you're not really very good at anything much. That probably does make me stupid to that kind of person, now I come to think about it.
But at least the majority of us "scroungers" are trying to make the best of what we have instead of looking down on other people.

Oh, and the answer is don't make the only way to apply for benefits be online. The current system works fine.

so the glasgow McDs you popped into a year ago to check your email for a job? three weeks! gosh you are up to speed on our benefits system! I congratulate you! what do you think of your answer?

usualsuspect Thu 28-Mar-13 17:00:55

It would take me forever to fill a form in on my phone.

Pagwatch Thu 28-Mar-13 17:01:04

Students use McDs for hours at a time with out being asked to leave?

No they don't. They buy something or they are asked to move on. Like every other establishment that offers wifi to its customers.

Can you explain the Aus$ thing TwoBras?

"Two", I answered that we need to make sure that support services\charities are of a consistent level, nationally. Everyone needs to be informed where they can access help, as not everyone seems to, at present. It isn't the case that individually benefits have to be initially claimed on-line and it won't ever be. There is to much of a difference to what is available, help wise, between LA's, also the knowledge of JC staff needs to be increased, as they don't seem to know the system (I do know that many contracts are temporary and not enough training given). The biggest problem is the lack of budgets available to support people who need basic advice, in the Charity sector. .

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:03:35

so the glasgow McDs you popped into a year ago to check your email for a job? three weeks! gosh you are up to speed on our benefits system! I congratulate you! what do you think of your answer? A year ago? Where did you get that from? I was there recently! We are here to be with my husband's family! What is hard to get about that?! It's not forever!

Laquitar Thu 28-Mar-13 17:04:27

If people wih MH, no computer skills, foreign language, elderly, are forced to use library computers will the Libraries be a magnet for criminals? Fraud, stolen id etc...If they are forced to do everything online then they should have some training imo.

Lol at free wi fi at Mcdonalds. Yes because if you dont have food you surely have few spare laptops. Plus the bus fare to go there.

HortyGal Thu 28-Mar-13 17:04:53

ssd and then there's Tracey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bnqEUBEkN6U

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:04:53

Birds Thank you. I understand fully what you are saying.

HortyGal Thu 28-Mar-13 17:05:13
TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:06:07

If they are forced to do everything online then they should have some training imo There is! And it is FREE!!!!!!!!! Ugh.

usualsuspect Thu 28-Mar-13 17:06:08

You can do it all on your smartphone according to twobras.

FreyaSnow Thu 28-Mar-13 17:07:07

For the person who asked about people who can't write, there are various charities who help people who are functionally illiterate with benefits forms. Other people will ask a friend to help. That is why there is a separate box on benefit forms for the signature of the person who filled in the form. Making everyone fill in forms online will simply increase the pressure on charities as it will increase the number of people who incapable of completing the form without support.

As for smart phones, I'm not entirely sure what one is. If it is a phone that lets you browse the Internet, I know very few people who have one.

I don't think it is acceptable for people to walk ten miles round trip, possibly with children, often in poor weather conditions to fill in a form which could be done at home with a pen. It is just a further strain on services like libraries and making life difficult for people.

MrsDeVere Thu 28-Mar-13 17:07:52

You may be able get free wifi if you are lucky enough to not get kicked out of MCDonalds AND you live near a McDonalds.

But you will still need a device on which to access that free wifi. One that is capable of loading the no doubt complicated web pages without crashing.

Contrary to popular belief not everyone owns a smart phone, lap top or ipad.

WTF is it with the internet issue and benefits? Why is it always dragged out and waved around as some sort of proof that people on benefits are profligate and have far to much money to spend?

Library access? Not round here and I live in a very densely populated area. The library round the corner is only open a few hours a week and the main one is a bus ride away. Even that one has reduced hours.

Easy peasy if you are able bodied, single and childless perhaps. Add a few kids into the mix or maybe mobility issues and you are already starting to make things difficult.

People are so fucking stupid. Wrapped up in their special little worlds, looking out and thinking they know whats what.

hmm

two bras has only recently arrived in this country. I suggest we leave her alone to acclimatise and become familiar with our benefits system.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:08:41

You can do it all on your smartphone according to twobras. You know what? Why don't you do it for them or even better, offer them use of your internet connection?

That is as opposed to giving free internet access, as that would not help those groups mentioned in the OP to access benefits. The benefit system is complex and there are different forms of funding available to some groups, who need specialised help, such as immigrants and those with disabilities.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:10:19

two bras has only recently arrived in this country. I suggest we leave her alone to acclimatise and become familiar with our benefits system. Eh no. You have missed the point. I am British, but have just moved to Australia, not the other way around.....I could understand how you got confused though. Apologies.

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 17:10:35

Laquitar we get a surprising amount of people - often elderly - coming to use the Internet to respond to things such as "you've won the Spanish lottery" or "hello I'm a member of the Nigerian royal family" etc... it is very sad. sad

Two, I do "do it" for people unable to, via my work, paid and unpaid, that is how I know the issues spoken about on this thread are real.

Two, I do "do it" for people unable to, via my work, paid and unpaid, that is how I know the issues spoken about on this thread are real.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 17:10:56

I can just imagine Camoron and his flunky, Osborne, watching the 'stupid unemployed people' walking 5 miles to get to the library to apply for jobs to find that the Tories have shut it.

They seem to get some sort of sick pleasure out of making the lives of people who are already on the breadline, worse.

lougle Thu 28-Mar-13 17:12:09

This shows the desperation at the moment.

4000 people queued up in a village to try and get a job at a shopping centre.

4000.

That's a little village in Hampshire. I checked the Population Data and there are just 1968 people of working age living in Whitely.

That means that 2000 people traveled into Whiteley from further away to seek a job there. A village with one road in and out.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:12:29

Birds Very good of you. But I have no way of knowing if that is true, sorry.

stressyBessy22 Thu 28-Mar-13 17:12:59

' If you live that far out then move!'

and how do you pay for that?

skinnywitch Thu 28-Mar-13 17:13:01

Wasn't there a scheme a while back for some claimants to have free laptops? My sisters friend had one ( though she sold it on Ebay ) but yes, definitely had a free laptop.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:14:23

I don't know what the answer is. None of us do. It's just a shit situation going by what lougle just posted.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:15:51

and how do you pay for that?

You save what pennies you have, hire a van for £50 and move. That is how. Can nobody save these days - even £2 a week???

god I wish there were an eye rolling emoticon. right are we generally of the opinion that leaving multiaccess routes open to benefit claiments means that you should be able to spend a social loan on internet access at your own discretion?

There are schemes and there has been schemes for free computers and laptops, the person had to pay the insurance and it didn't work out very well, so was scrapped. That was at a time when there was better provision for people to access advice, before the change in Government and "the cuts".

There are schemes and there has been schemes for free computers and laptops, the person had to pay the insurance and it didn't work out very well, so was scrapped. That was at a time when there was better provision for people to access advice, before the change in Government and "the cuts".

Pagwatch Thu 28-Mar-13 17:18:17

Add message | Report | Message poster TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:08:41
You can do it all on your smartphone according to twobras. You know what? Why don't you do it for them or even better, offer them use of your internet connection?

What is that? Is it finally an acceptance that this might actually be really challenging for some vulnerable people wrapped up, without any grace whatsoever , in a bit of a sneer at the idea that it might bother some who count themselves lucky to be unaffected?

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 17:18:45

Where do you magic this £50 from? If you only have £2 left a month that would take half a year to save up and then, of course, you'd need to save up about a grand for a deposit on a rental, so a further 20 years for that.... and on it goes.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:19:35

And I wish there were a 'stop being PA' emoticon.

How would your idea work Madame? They could have internet access, but only for certain sites? A suggestion - hurrah!

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 17:21:25

Jesus, TwoBras every post makes you sound just a little bit denser... £50 to move house. No other expenses involved obviously. And what about those of us who own their houses? Shall we 'just move' too?

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 17:21:37

And what if, in the meantime as you're saving for this £50, your washer breaks down, or your fridge? Then what?

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:22:05

Oh FFS - budget van hire. £50. Seriously? You can't work that out?????

Two, you may not be aware of the housing crisis we are entering thanks to the Bedroom tax, everyone is struggling to hang on to their tenancy's as it is. +h and if you know of a van that can move a house full of furniture and cost £50, please do advertise this.

Hallo there Pag. Maybe we should have free caparhiniaaas on offer to enable claimants to get through the 40 pages or so a form for HB has....

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:23:45

Oh so many victims.....

StuntGirl Thu 28-Mar-13 17:23:53

Oh twobras, honestly, yes some people cannot save even £2 a week. I know some people in negative every month, all they do is move money around, make late payments, beg or borrow to make ends meet. If you honestly cannot empathise with that I suggest this is the wrong thread for you to attempt to engage in.

How do I put this politely? We are done TB. over. Our fledging romance has run its course.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:24:29

Birds Go on Gumtree. That is what we did. Seriously people. THINK OUTSIDE THE BLOODY BOX.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 17:24:55

How is having your washer break making someone a victim?

Where is this fictional £50 van?

You have no idea, Bra. None whatsoever.

MrsDeVere Thu 28-Mar-13 17:25:35

You save £50 and move?

What, just like that? Really?

So no other moving expenses like ummm er the massively higher rents the nearer to amenities you get?
Or furnishing?
Or re-connection of utilities?
Or solicitor's fees?
Or agency fees?
Or deposits?
New school uniforms?

You utter twit.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 17:25:56

How can you go no Gumtree if you have no internet? confused

So, am AIBU? if anyone can remember the point in the first place before the splendid derailing of our dear friend across the waters.

MrsDeVere Thu 28-Mar-13 17:26:37

Isn't Gumtree an ONLINE service?
And don't you need a vehicle to pick up whatever you find on it?

MrsDeVere Thu 28-Mar-13 17:27:03

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 17:27:12

YANBU Madame.

Thank you woolly!

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:28:19

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 17:28:57

YANBU it's all shit.

It's come full circle.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Thu 28-Mar-13 17:29:04

Fgs it takes more than £50 to move!! You can't hire a van here for that and you need a job lined up where you are going and a place to live, school places for children, so new uniforms, paying to sort out redirection of mail, getting utilities etc set up. In what world is 'just moving' this easy option some make out it is?!!

YouTheCat Thu 28-Mar-13 17:29:25

How is it someone's fault if their washer breaks?

Ladies, we might be nourishing the, ah, unworthy.

Goodtalkingtoo Thu 28-Mar-13 17:30:28

I personally would hate to go into a public place such as a library, Internet cafe and enter all of my personal details into a computer, not knowing who else has access to, what security or other programmes are on it or who else may be hanging around taking in what I am doing. Including my children details, my bank details, national insurance number. I know and can check personal security on my own computer and I know who is around while I am filling in details.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:31:06

Out of interest, if you are all SO POOR, why are you all online in the middle of the afternoon?

what time is it in Australia, TB?

Meglet Thu 28-Mar-13 17:31:58

Yanbu. The Tories are the lowest of the low angry.

I had to make use of the computers at the library once. You don't just rock up, sit down and take as long as you want to do it. They have bookable time slots and IIRC it was restricted use, possibly 30 minutes. It is not the sort of place you want to deal with personal information and finances. People with jobs, young children, MH issues, mobility problems are going to find it a nightmare using public computers. As for using an internet cafe, I don't think they even exist anymore.

3yrs ago I took a maths refresher course. I was the only one out of 6 people who had home internet access. It was an eye opener for me.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:32:33

Fgs it takes more than £50 to move!! You can't hire a van here for that and you need a job lined up where you are going and a place to live, school places for children, so new uniforms, paying to sort out redirection of mail, getting utilities etc set up. In what world is 'just moving' this easy option some make out it is?!!

Not everybody has children. You CAN hire a truck on Gumtree for that. WE did.

gordyslovesheep Thu 28-Mar-13 17:34:16

YANBU op - most of my clients don't have internet access - yes they have to access internet only sites such as the apprenticeship website to find jobs, all the colleges are online application only ...it's massively discriminatory

You can't get a van with two people to lift for £50, with insurance, that will move a full house, honestly. But besides, if you have little money, you are not going to have the deposit and first months rent, in cash, to move, anyway.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:35:20

As for using an internet cafe, I don't think they even exist anymore. They do in Glasgow. Pretty much all coffee shops have wifi there. Shopping centres also have free wifi but maybe that is only in Glasgow??

magimedi Thu 28-Mar-13 17:36:25

Madame YANBU at all as to the point of your OP. I think it is a dreadful & cruel ruling.

FreyaSnow Thu 28-Mar-13 17:36:35

That's not an internet cafe. An internet cafe is a cafe which have computers in them which customers can use.

<<curls up in corner until "time difference" kicks in>>

Pagwatch Thu 28-Mar-13 17:37:50

There are a few victims on here actually.
One sort is definately those who deal with difficult circumstances and have the wherewithal to emerge and better themselves without having learnt the basic lesson of that.

To emerge you must have a combination of luck and talent or sheer gumption that helps you through.
And not everyone is blessed with luck or talent or gumption.
All sorts of things interfere - disability, depression, SN , poor education, poor decision making.

To come out the other side of adversity with no understanding that you were lucky makes you a fool. To have no empathy for others that need more help than you makes you so much worse.
To then spout sneery shite about others who failed where you succeeded makes you a victim of sorts because you are doomed to be a bit thick and unpleasant without ever really understanding why.

Meglet Thu 28-Mar-13 17:38:08

You need a laptop of your own to access wifi in a coffee shop.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:38:13

Birds Ok, I just dreamed it... It was 2 guys with a Transit and it took them 2 hours to move all of our stuff 3 miles away. My husband helped them. I didn't say it was above board - we just did it as we couldn't afford anything else!

gordyslovesheep Thu 28-Mar-13 17:38:29

yes and you NEED A LAPTOP or smart phone etc to access the free wifi

Madam has it been like this all day????

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:39:31

<<curls up in corner until "time difference" kicks in>>

Good for you. Not much of a splash at maths are we?

Pagwatch Thu 28-Mar-13 17:39:54

Many of the coffee shops here have free wifi for paying customers

Internet cafes charge you by the half hour and for making copies.

Its 4.39am in australia. you have been here for a good couple of hours. oh dear. You must be tired poor love. I certainly am.

FreyaSnow Thu 28-Mar-13 17:41:23

Madame Defarge, I suspect the actual impact of this will be that many charities, particularly those that deal with the elderly, will spend a lot more time filling in benefit forms and have a lot less time left for supporting the elderly and other vulnerable groups in other ways.

It essentially means that the work of processing the forms, which currently would have been paid for by the government as it would been done by public sector workers when the form arrived, will now be partly done by the charities inputting information online on behalf of vulnerable people.

Don't go there Pag. we have covered pages on this topic with TB. maybe her bridge has superboosted internet access.

I mean home. home.

Gordy, that is what I mean by national provision, we (in Liverpool) seem to be lucky in that there seems to be different ways to do all applications.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:42:48

To then spout sneery shite about others who failed where you succeeded makes you a victim of sorts because you are doomed to be a bit thick and unpleasant without ever really understanding why.

You have no idea of what I have gone through to come out of the other side. Depression FUCKING galore. Anxiety/panic attacks. I just don't take the victim mentality. Your's is the ONLY post that has angered me. Purely for the fact that you think anybody who has helped themself has not had the horror of waking up and not wanting to. Everybody has problems.

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Thu 28-Mar-13 17:43:23

I am not poor but I do have some bloody empathy for those unfortunate eenough to be less well off.

No you can't hire a van for £50 even on Gumtree which you need the internet to access.

And moving three bloody miles isn't going to help if you are in an area of high unemployment and no jobs.

And what about a deposit and sorting out your utilities etc, that is all needed by people without children.

Again, you must be shattered. go to bed. it'll all be better in a few hours with some kip under your belt. Its not even five oclock of the morning round your way!

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:44:28

Australia has one time line? Really? Um no. It doesn't. And it is certainly not the time you are stating where I am!

Okay TB. AIBU?

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Thu 28-Mar-13 17:45:42

And yes internet access in cafes etc if you are a paying customer!!

And I have a smart phone, a nice one with a largish screen, its still a
Pita for the internet, you couldn't use it for online forms for benefits.

I think you might mean time zone. zone. not line. HTH

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:46:31

You are by thinking that a huge continent such as Australia has one time line. That is shocking. Not U.

thekidsrule Thu 28-Mar-13 17:47:00

ffs these threads are dominating MN at the moment

it seems the whole country is disabled or has mental health issues,its becoming the stock example on here,seriously we must be the sick man of europe

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 28-Mar-13 17:47:01

YANBU

5Eggs...TB is very very tired. She needs to rest. and not be disturbed.

woollyideas Thu 28-Mar-13 17:47:48

Out of interest, if you are all SO POOR, why are you all online in the middle of the afternoon?
This is the last thing I'm going to say to twoBras whose stuck-record blithering is just getting on my nerves now.

1. Who said we were poor? You can be rich/middling and have empathy, you know, just like you can be able-bodied and care about the less able-bodied.
2. Why not be the internet in the middle of the afternoon? Some of us are on annual leave from our jobs. For others it might be the only contact they have with the outside world. Whatever the reason, it's none of your fucking business to be honest.

Zone, my love, zone.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:49:03

Fair point! ha!

Thank you Jamie.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 17:52:14

Ok woolly some were saying they were skint. You are not one of them obviously.

Tiredmumno1 Thu 28-Mar-13 17:52:58

Good grief, I have just sat and read some of the biggest load of bollocks ever (and that is not a word I use regularly)

Madam YANBU

MrsDeVere Thu 28-Mar-13 17:53:21

Look
You may have pulled yourself up by your bootstraps and risen like a phoenix from the ashes TB

But you are not particularly good at thinking things through are you?

Don't have internet access? - go to MacDonalds
What if you don't have an internet enabled device? - Ummmm
Live to far from a library/McDonalds? - just move
How do you move? - get a van off gumtree
But Gumtree is a website, online, how do you get online if you don't have the internet or a laptop or live near a McDonalds? - ummmmm
How do you afford to rent a van? - save up
What if you don't have any money at the end of the week to save? - ummmmm
What if you can't drive that van off Gumtree? - ummmm
How are you going to pay the higher rents and moving costs if you can't even pay for internet access? - ummmmmm

and so it goes. On and on and on and on and on.

<pmsl that I got deleted for calling someone a S***t m*****>

Tiredmumno1 Thu 28-Mar-13 17:53:38

Madame even smile

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 17:54:58

I can't see why the govt don't just put McDonalds in charge of all the shiftless poor? They could house, feed, employ and give them internet access!!!!!!!

Brill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sunnywithshowers Thu 28-Mar-13 17:55:09

YANBU at all Madame.

TwoBras you're not the only person on here who has gone through shitty circumstances and come out the other side. Good for you (not sarcastic - I'm glad when people get out of shitty circs). But please have a bit of compassion for those who don't have your particular survival skills.

Tiredmumno1 Thu 28-Mar-13 17:55:39

And as for save £2 a week to move well.......

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Best stop before I pee myself

Mrs D! I am shocked. shocked that someone so robust and take the shit and get on with it felt the need to report you. shame.

Tiredmumno1 Thu 28-Mar-13 17:56:50

Hully that's a bloody great idea, they'll kick themselves that they didn't think of that first grin

Ah Hully!!!! the voice of reason! And solutions, not problems!

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 17:57:31

And what about Wimpy? Hardly anyone goes there anymore, they could have some of the poor, and Kentucky Fried Chicken. I can really see this taking off.

I say bring back the knickerbocker glory. and the workhouse. a winning combo I feel.

FreyaSnow Thu 28-Mar-13 17:58:23

Mrs Devere, you just summed the whole argument up as a modern version of 'There's a hole in my bucket."

MrsDeVere Thu 28-Mar-13 17:58:47

But what about the vegetarian feckless poor?

Who will house and feed them?

I suppose they could live on fries and McFlurries <yum>

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Thu 28-Mar-13 17:58:55

Well I am on the internet in the afternoon as I don't work, my toddler is napping and the other four mad things are watching a film. Dinner is already made and its the first day of the holidays so we are having a lazy day, apart from dp, he is at work!

I am not smug tho, I realise we are lucky, very lucky but shit can happen to anyone at anytime and that's what we have the safety net for, its crap that it is being worded and made harder to access by those that need it most.

So op yanbu.

grovel Thu 28-Mar-13 17:59:27

All food banks should have a few computers for the poor to use (provided they ask nicely). See? Lateral thinking.

Sorted.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 28-Mar-13 17:59:27

Wimpy

How apt

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 17:59:55

AND...

The poor can't afford pets, so they could donate their pets to be "chicken" and burgers and really contribute to society and feel part of it. And if they all wore McDonalds uniforms (or Kentucky etc), they could sell their own clothes to raise a bit of cash!!!!

fuzzpig Thu 28-Mar-13 18:00:00

Oh surely not wimpy, chicken cottage would be better.

oh grovel! how blue sky of you! Genius!

5eggstremelychocaletymadeggs Thu 28-Mar-13 18:00:47

Does mc donalds not do vegetarian options then? I quite fancy a chocolate shake now, but they always give me brain freeze sad

Pagwatch Thu 28-Mar-13 18:01:15

TwoBras

Do you not read what anyone says. My post angered you yet you clearly didn't understand it.

Tiredmumno1 Thu 28-Mar-13 18:01:20

As for the McDonald/wifi argument, well lets repeat again what others have said, not everyone has a device that they can use, thus making the argument totally irrelevant twobras

tethersend Thu 28-Mar-13 18:01:27

Come off it Hully, Wimpy has Brown Derbys- it's positively upmarket.

What you want is a Starburger.

veggie burgers? Onion rings? Garnish? whats not to love?

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 18:01:50

On a serious note

IT IS BEYOND DISGUSTING

Disenfranchisement taken to its extreme.

Cut them off, silence them, hope they'll quietly die.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 18:01:57

Oh hell, just make life free! Free for everyone! Nobody has to pay for a thing. Bugger it. grin

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 18:02:32

thethers darling! not seen you in ages, hows lil bubba? Weaned on to MaccyD yet?

tethersend Thu 28-Mar-13 18:02:50

I fashioned a computer out of ham once.

Do I win a £5 food voucher?

FreyaSnow Thu 28-Mar-13 18:03:05

There is a vegetarian option - spicy veggie deli.

They could also do food for the elderly. That would save money on government funded carers preparing food for the elderly at home, and the elderly could apply for their stair lift funding online using the McDonalds wifi connection.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 18:03:11

Would that make you all happy? 'Government announces that life is free in the UK.'

What a great country that would be.

Tiredmumno1 Thu 28-Mar-13 18:04:09

Oh it gets better hmm

grovel Thu 28-Mar-13 18:04:16

But, tethers, did you steal the ham?

tethersend Thu 28-Mar-13 18:05:01

Yes! not even joking

I am fine, Hully. But very, very tired as baby is 10 months old and a raving insomniac with a kamikaze approach to health and safety.

Et toi?

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 18:05:53

Why not twobras?

This is a true story:

The native Americans had no cash or conception of it, they lived in communal societies and took care of each other. When America was "discovered" and they were a bit inconvenient and a bit massacred, the few that were left were offered some useless barren desert and told to stay put and live there.

They didn't want to much.

By then things had got to the point where they couldn't really just keep killing them off, so they scratched their heads and came up with a plan.

Guess what they did?

They gave them trousers. With pockets. Because you put things in pockets, and you develop a sense of ownership and mine mine mine and start acting SELFISHLY.

So I'd say no cash is a damn good thing.

grovel Thu 28-Mar-13 18:06:11

In that case you win a 3 week holiday with Vicky Price. Starting tomorrow.

No tethers but you do get a no purchase access all areas pass to WIFI in McDonalds...

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 18:06:41

Oh I'm all right tethers, I mainly live on rage and despair these days.

tethersend Thu 28-Mar-13 18:07:48

I made the keyboard out of slices of pepperami

<proud>

Now that's the kind of box-excluded thinking I reckon would get benefit claimants full of feck.

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 18:08:04

And what did Jesus say?

To the least of them...

Love thy neighbour...

etc etc

Not. get everything you can and the devil take the hindmost.

TwoBrasDontMakeABodice Thu 28-Mar-13 18:08:45

I agree Hully. I've read that story too.

tethersend Thu 28-Mar-13 18:09:56

I have a bag of despair in the cupboard left over from Christmas, Hully. It's yours.

grovel Thu 28-Mar-13 18:10:10

But Jesus could knock out meals for nothing.

Fish course, carbs, vino.

We can't all do that.

Roseformeplease Thu 28-Mar-13 18:11:20

Surely, helping people to access the increasingly online world is a good thing, not a bad one. As long as there IS help and they are given chances, surely that can only be of benefit to them, making them more enfranchised and employable. Yes, take time. Yes, offer training but, sometimes, people do need a nudge in the right direction.

Teach a man to fish.....and all that.

Hullygully Thu 28-Mar-13 18:11:25

well all right, I grant you he could stretch a bit of grub like nobody's business.

But he still loved the poor most.