To be frustrated and angry that women are still expected to be the "emotion keepers" in families.

(447 Posts)
seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 10:07:29

And if we don't stop doing it, our daughters will still be thinking they are responsible for "keeping men sweet" in 30 years time?

SkinnybitchWannabe Sun 24-Mar-13 10:09:34

Am I abit think not to know what you're talking about? confused
Maybe it's a good thing Ive got sons!

Tee2072 Sun 24-Mar-13 10:10:23

I'm not sure I understand what you mean either. But I also have a son.

rainrainandmorerain Sun 24-Mar-13 10:13:33

I don't know what an emotion keeper is, but I am intrigued, so tell me more!

plaingirly Sun 24-Mar-13 10:13:40

“…first know that a husband has authority to tell his wife what to wear, where to go, whom to talk to, how to spend her time, when to speak or not to, even if he is unreasonable and insensitive.”

“I realized for the first time that God’s way is for me to love, respect, honor, and OBEY, no matter what.”

“The servant is not given the option of deciding that the master is not acting within the will of God and therefore should not be obeyed. It is acceptable with God (God’s will) for the underling to suffer wrongfully and take it patiently.”

From Created to be a Helpmeet.

There will always be people seeking to define a woman's role. Lots of generalisation.

SirBoobAlot Sun 24-Mar-13 10:25:07

YANBU. It makes me angry.

Bonsoir Sun 24-Mar-13 10:27:27

It isn't true and there is no point getting all worked up about something that is a figment of your imagination.

badguider Sun 24-Mar-13 10:31:23

I'm not entirely sure what you mean but it sounds either a bit 1950s or downright emotionally abusive if the woman is "walking on eggshells" to keep her husband happy and suppressing her feelings. My relationship doesn't work like that and neither does my parents and pils. In fact I don't know anybody who would admit openly that theirs does because it would be shameful and 'behind closed doors' not a norm.

Eh?

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 10:33:30

I haven't a clue what you mean. I live with my DH and 3 DSs, grew up with brothers-why on earth would I be 'emotion' keeper? It seems a very odd thing.Why do I need to 'keep them sweet'? What does 'keep them sweet' even mean?
We are just people-you learn to live together.
If anything I would say that it pays to keep the mother 'sweet'-I certainly did if I wanted permission to do something-my father was a much softer touch in the first place-with my mother you had to work at 'selling' it the right way!

janey68 Sun 24-Mar-13 10:35:05

My role isn't to 'keep my husband sweet'. What a strange idea

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 10:35:36

If you have to do this in your personal life then you married, or are living with, the wrong man! My grandmother didn't do it in the early 20th century.
You don't have to teach your DD anything-they do as you do and never as you say.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 10:36:46

I like to think that I generally agree with you, seeker, but that is the biggest load of old tosh I have ever heard! (saying something on MN!)

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 10:39:04

The only person who can change your behaviour towards men OP is yourself. If you think that you need to keep a man 'sweet' that's really your problem to fix.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 10:43:07

Sorry- I've used "emotion keepers" so long that I forget I invented it, and people don't know what it means.

Women are expected to smooth things over, to keep everybody happy. To put their own needs last. To be responsible for other people's moods and emotions.
To find subtle ways to make men engage in perfectly reasonable family and domestic arrangements. To trick them into doings he right thing, like toddlers....

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 10:44:27

To those people saying this is "tosh"- have you read mumsnet recently? I wish it wasn't forbidden to to threads about threads.....!

Chandon Sun 24-Mar-13 10:45:23

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean....

Or maybe I do? I Feel responsible for soothing everybody's emotional or angry outbursts and I sometimes feel like the " emotional punchbag/sponge of the family". Everybody offloads their issues with me, as I am the mum. Even DH does this, though I often withdraw from him if he comes home angry from work as I cannot take anymore ( wish he would look for another job).

Then again, I also get lots of love and appreciation and the one who gets the good news first if things are good.

It just can be exhausting. Is that what you mean?

HollyBerryBush Sun 24-Mar-13 10:45:26

To find subtle ways to make men engage in perfectly reasonable family and domestic arrangements. To trick them into doings he right thing, like toddlers....

to me that reads as women are manipulative.

If that is your experience of family life then I pity you because it's nothing like my family life.

My husband's not like that. Neither is my brother. Neither is my dad. In fact I would say that between my mum & dad, he is the emotion keeper, responsible for her moods and emotions. She has always been pretty volatile.

Chandon Sun 24-Mar-13 10:47:07

Cross post. So that is different. i do not need to coax DH into taking part in domestic arrangements! He has aken the DC to rugby and is freezing his arse off whilst I am having coffee and am n MN

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 10:49:05

I've certainly read threads where some women think it is their job in life to make everyone else happy ... at their own expense a lot of the time, up to and including tolerating DV 'for the sake of the kids'. But you can't generalise and say they are typical of all women which is what your original post implied. These poor creatures are often damaged, insecure, lack confidence, have low self-esteem and don't feel they are important enough to put their own needs first.

shesariver Sun 24-Mar-13 10:49:46

Women are expected to smooth things over, to keep everybody happy.

By who confused

You dont describe my family thats for sure.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 10:50:20

This is not what my relationship is like at all and my parents' relationship is very like the one that Hearts describes.

I think that to assume that lots of women are living like this is to rather underestimate us and judge us by what happens in your own relationship. It is also very patronising!

StuffezLaBouche Sun 24-Mar-13 10:50:43

You will get a hundred people here saying their life is nothing like that, and they don't know what you're talking about. But just casting an eye over some of the threads in Relationshps, particularly, makes me realise you're right.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 10:51:18

I am assuming that this is based on your own experiences btw.

thebody Sun 24-Mar-13 10:51:30

If you love someone you support and comfort them.

Man, woman or child. That's being human.

Nothing to do with sex.

StuffezLaBouche Sun 24-Mar-13 10:51:56

Though I agree there is an implication in your OP that ALL women live like this.

blackeyedsusan Sun 24-Mar-13 10:52:28

yanbu. each person is responsible for their own emotions/ equally responsible in a relationship to do things that will make the other happy.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 10:53:22

*Women are expected to smooth things over, to keep everybody happy. To put their own needs last. To be responsible for other people's moods and emotions.
To find subtle ways to make men engage in perfectly reasonable family and domestic arrangements. To trick them into doings he right thing, like toddlers....*

I'm glad that you have explained it, but I certainly wouldn't do it-I know some men who have to walk on eggshells around wives -they often put it down to PMT -whether that is true or not I don't know.
Part of the problem maybe women wanting men to do things their way, under their supervision.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 10:53:34

She may be right about SOME people and SOME relationships and that particular forum is full of people asking for help for various reasons. I would not presume to make sweeping generalisations about women as a whole from one relationship (problems) forum!

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 10:54:58

Life has taught me (from an early age) that you are responsible for your own problems-if it is not your problem then don't take ownership.

In our house it is the opposite. DH believes " happy wife, happy house" and takes care of business accordingly.
It works for us grin

ItsallisnowaFeegle Sun 24-Mar-13 10:57:16

I think I understand what you're getting at but I'm not sure I agree with some of your explaining.

For instance, my DP would never think to see to the baby who starts to cry every single time we sit down to eat, I always see to the baby but it's not because I'm expected to, it's because DP can be an emotionally immature penis who would quite happily allow baby to cry until he'd finished eating (DP is finding his feet when it comes to being a dad and being part of family life).

I often feel the need to subtly suggest to dp that not everything is my responsibility. However, that doesn't mean I'm the keeper of emotions. We are learning how to be a family and as I already have dd (15yrs) I've had more experience.

As for seeing to the baby at meal times, I'll continue with that, DP might cry if he needs to postpone his own feeding time wink

Latara Sun 24-Mar-13 10:58:44

I don't know if this is relevant but an older female relative has told me that i don't have a boyfriend because i refuse to ''dumb down, act flirty & helpless,'' & i'm ''too opinionated''......

Latara Sun 24-Mar-13 10:59:42

Obviously i refuse to do that - i would like a boyfriend who accepts me as i am, or none at all.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 11:00:19

It is houses with 3 or more DDs where the father appears to have the problem-keeping everyone 'sweet'-or more keeping the peace.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 11:00:29

Feegle what a charming way to describe your DP. Presumably you are ok with him referring to you as a patronising vagina?

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 11:00:56

I understand what you're getting at seeker.

Of course its not universal but there's a lot of truth in what you say.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 11:01:19

Latara you stick to your guns.

janey68 Sun 24-Mar-13 11:02:54

If you read the relationships thread on Mums net then of course you're likely to see evidence of women who are having issues in their relationships. The clue is in the name of the forum.
That doesn't mean there aren't men out there who experience the same issues- tiptoeing around their wife and trying to keep her happy. It's just that they probably offload elsewhere, or bottle it up and don't share.

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 11:04:03

"Women are expected to smooth things over, to keep everybody happy. To put their own needs last. To be responsible for other people's moods and emotions. "

Sounds like my DH he's expected to do this for everyone in his family. Don't generalize it happens to men too. There is a feminist section for you to enjoy arguing your usual rubbish in smile

Chandon Sun 24-Mar-13 11:04:17

Feegle, that does not sound amusing, though you try to make light of it. Sounds like he is being a dick, and you shrug it off. Shame.

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 11:04:28

Have I got it right...?

Women are expected to be naturally good at all the caring stuff, and responsible for keeping everyone happy, while at the same while men are allowed/expected to be more selfish and please themselves.

Is that what you mean?

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 11:04:55

At the same time, not at the same while.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 11:04:58

If there is any truth it is often because the woman insists on making herself 'senior' parent and won't simply go out for a couple of hours and leave DH with a 2 week old baby. By the time she wants to relinquish a bit of control he has got used to referring everything to her. I'm not sure that is anything to do with keeping sweet though.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 11:05:59

Oh dear- I forgot to mention that obviously this is an issue for men too. <huntingvainlyforsarcasm/ironyemoticon emoticon>

HollyBerryBush Sun 24-Mar-13 11:06:13

It is houses with 3 or more DDs where the father appears to have the problem-keeping everyone 'sweet'-or more keeping the peace.

So men are crap peacekeepers now when living all that oestrogen?

All I can say is, get a shed

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exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 11:07:44

I think so flippinada. Had she posted in the feminist section she would have got more agreement-they generally seem to be living with useless, selfish, emotionally retarded men and assume that other people do too. They also seem incapable of changing it.

We keep each other sweet in this house, it's just looking after each other isn't it? I couldn't live in a situation where I constantly sacrificed myself to keep dp happy,I wouldn't be happy, so where does that leave you?

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 11:09:39

All you can say is that some people live with moody people and they give into it for a quiet life. Nothing to do with gender.

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 11:09:42

I think seeker is talking about a general principle, not saying all women do X and all men do Y.

That's not hard to understand, is it?

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 11:10:05

Or if not moody-people who like their own way.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 11:15:02

Thank you, flippinada!

I deliberately didn't post in feminism just to see what would happen. Predictably, within a very few posts, I had several ad hominem comments and a "this is even worse for men, they just don't talk about it, poor loves!"

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 11:16:16

As an experiment I would post in feminism-it will go down a treat!

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 11:19:11

Er -I haven't read that on here!

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 11:23:00

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 11:25:04

grin grin

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 11:26:36

hmm

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 11:27:51

My grandmother was born in late 1900s and didn't feel the need, so if I had a DD in the 21st century who did it I would be rather surprised and disappointed. I hope that my DSs don't get self centred partners either that need to be constantly appeased.
Judging by MN I would say it was the man who constantly had to peace keep between his DW and his mother!

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 11:28:34

Seeker, I think the only thing you were vaguely unreasonable about was hoping for a sensible discussion in aibu!

Tee2072 Sun 24-Mar-13 11:30:55

You can't go by MN, especially the relationship boards. The purpose of MN is (mostly) support and moaning.

Those of us who don't need support or a moan don't post about our relationships. Which is probably 95% of us. Many more than who do.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 11:31:32

Ooh, look, an ad hominem and a poor men in the same post!

Catmint Sun 24-Mar-13 11:33:19

I am very pleased that so many women here aren't made responsible for being the emotional managers in their homes.

I think Seeker is angry and frustrated that so many women still are.

And I agree.

I have been horrified at the number of threads on MN recently where women have been systematically emotionally abused over long periods, have had their strength and self esteem eroded by a dominant and disrespectful partner.

It's like a scary mirror world where basic things like being loved for who you are cannot be relied upon and your power is drained away.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 11:33:33

Goady and silly.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 11:33:38

It's not just in relationships, Tee, though. And even there, it's not just the person moaning- it's the advice they get. Actually, quite often the person moaning is told that the problem is her own fault!

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 11:34:44

To seeker's last post.

I was brought up in an abusive man pleasing house.
Hell will freeze over before I adopt that way of life for me or DC. DH is happy, I'm happy, kids happy. All good chez Scarlett grin

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 11:39:11

You want to start an argument here but many people disagree. I very much agree with Tee in that you get a very skewed view here on MN especially on relationships and this has possibly affected your perception of the dynamics of relationships in general?

squeakytoy Sun 24-Mar-13 11:40:59

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flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 11:41:00

Agree Catmint, great post.

Some people seem to be reading this as a personal attack on the men they know who don't behave badly and are good partners/dads. It isn't.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 11:41:07

Instead of being angry or disbelieving about this seeker, surely it's something to be pleased about?

Startail Sun 24-Mar-13 11:46:46

I think I do get where the OP is coming from.

DM does keep my somewhat shorter tempered DDad from doing/saying things that would cause grief.

If I feel I'm about to say the wrong thing to DSIS I phone mum first.

I do a little of the same
, acting as a filter between DD2 and DH, because they are likely to annoy each other.

I think it, often does, fall to women to keep the peace.

Partly because most Mothers spend more time with their DCs than their Fathers do. Doing the school run etc. you tend to hear more of the ins and outs of their lives. You get the unfiltered instant version of the DCs day.

Mum is more likely to know all parties involved in thinks that are upsetting the DCs.

Mum also knows DHs project is due tomorrow. She therefore knows that today is not a good time for DCs and DH to share grumbles.

Especially as most men like to fix things. There isn't a practical solution to all problems.

I think more than anything this is why women do the "emotion keeper" bit, they want to stop inappropriate actions being taken when doing something isn't the answer.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 11:51:53

I deliberately didn't post in feminism just to see what would happen. Predictably, within a very few posts, I had several ad hominem comments and a "this is even worse for men, they just don't talk about it, poor loves!"

Soooooo, feminism section enlightened, superior, empathetic beings /everywhere else, unenlightened down-trodden, menz excusing handmaidens.

Got it. Ta.

Eskino Sun 24-Mar-13 11:53:07

I do tend to say, "for gods sake CALM DOWN" a lot, but that's for my benefit, no one else's.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 11:58:57

* Actually, quite often the person moaning is told that the problem is her own fault!*

Often it is. If you are 'keeping your DP sweet* stop it from now. Don't do it. Tell him that it is his problem and don't take responsibility.

I think the point is that a lot of women are living with abusive men and being told that they need to 'manage' the man better ie placate and serve him. And a lot of men, while not really abusive, are selfish and lazy and consider themselves superior to their partners. There have, after all, been centuries of women being regarded (legally and socially) as men's property, not as people, and even now women are still considered the subordinate class, there for men's benefit. So you get all this guff about men 'not seeing mess' or 'finding it harder to look after small children' and what it basically means is 'Men are too important to do domestic shitwork, it will make their cocks fall off.'
Of course, properly conducted studies show over and over again that meniin heteromonogamous family relationships who do their fair share of domestic work and childcare have happier marriages and better sex lives than the sexist slobs who lift their eet for Wifey to hoover underneath and then get their cocks out at bedtime and sulk when she's not in the mood.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 12:04:07

SGB how do you know that 'a lot of women are living with abusive men'? And also that 'a lot of men consider themselves superior to their partner'?

You post has annoyed me. Sweeping generalisations anyone?

WorraLiberty Sun 24-Mar-13 12:09:16

These threads are always so pointless and goady imo.

Pointless because the title contains a massive generalisation and should state some women.

And goady because whenever anyone disagrees/states that it's not their experience/points out this is not just a female issue...they'll either get the piss taken out of them or get called 'predictable'.

It's ironic really considering how predictable these type of threads are.

OP if you want to make a point/discuss this, at least accept that some people's experiences are different...without the heavy sarcasm.

Tee2072 Sun 24-Mar-13 12:12:05

If everyone was happy with their lives, there'd be no MN.

If everyone on MN gave good advice we'd only need 3 posters.

It's the internet. It's hardly a picture of 'real life'.

BalloonSlayer Sun 24-Mar-13 12:12:34

My sisters had a massive fall out a couple of years ago that has never been properly resolved. sad

Sister1's DP went off on one about the behaviour of the Sister2's child. Instead of talking to him about it, Sister2 called Sister1 into another room and had a go at her about what her DP had said. Sister1 felt pushed into a corner and that she had to support him as she agreed with his criticisms, although she had not agreed with his decision to blow his stack and say something. Cue family rift.

If Sister2 had not held Sister1 responsible for her DP's behaviour this would not have happened.

It also would not have happened if Sister1 had had the sense to say: "Why on earth are you confronting me about what DP said? I am not responsible for him. Take it up with him and leave me out of it."

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:13:46

I think the point is that a lot of women are living with abusive men and being told that they need to 'manage' the man better ie placate and serve him

The advice I always see is 'leave the bastard'!
Never once on relationship boards have I seen placate him. Often the woman doesn't understand (or hasn't wanted to understand)that he is abusive.

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 12:14:49

So both sisters are a bit silly then.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:17:55

If you took posts on MN for what was general in RL you would get a very strange , and unrealistic picture.

ithaka Sun 24-Mar-13 12:18:29

I think that some women choose to be 'emotion keepers' because they like to feel in control and in charge of the home. It is not my way, but each to their own.

badguider Sun 24-Mar-13 12:18:35

I honestly don't know what the balance is in relationships across the uk. Those I witness everyday are about 90-90% truly equal (or any inequality is very very well hidden behind closed doors) but then you read mn and it is clearly another reality entirely. I accept in many ways I don't live the prevailing mainstream media culture (women reading heat magazine, men getting pissed up in single-sex groups on a friday night) but then im not sure this is the majority life experience either. I don't know and don't know how other posters can claim to know which is the majority.

WorraLiberty Sun 24-Mar-13 12:21:46

Exactly exotic and I'm sure the OP has been around long enough to realise that people tend to use MN to rant about bad relationships, than to post about good ones.

Imagine if we all started threads declaring how great our relationships are...we'd be told to stop boasting and spare a thought for those in bad ones.

So it's not rocket science to see how/why there can be a skewed image of the 'average' relationship.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 12:24:04

As I said- it's not the "problems"- it's the advice given!

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:26:16

The advice is always 'leave him'-some with helpful suggestions of how to do it and some with 'leave the bastard'which is now classic MN advice!

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:27:25

Could you actually find an example on a relationship board of anyone telling the OP to 'manage' him better? hmm

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:28:23

Or is this the sort of advice dished out by women's magazines in 1950s?

WorraLiberty Sun 24-Mar-13 12:29:35

You're reading a different MN to me then OP.

If you see poor advice given, why not call the person on it there and then

Instead of starting threads that make sweeping generalisations and then getting sarcastic with people who have wider experiences to you?

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:30:10

I think that some women choose to be 'emotion keepers' because they like to feel in control and in charge of the home. It is not my way, but each to their own

There is definitely that element to it. Some women appear to want to be 'superior' parent with extra child-the power within the home.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:31:06

You're reading a different MN to me then OP

I think we ought to get a link to it-if it exists..

LegArmpits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:31:29

Snore.

ItsallisnowaFeegle Sun 24-Mar-13 12:32:49

Course I am Country! wink

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 12:33:29

Sounds like a 'bored', bad weather Sunday morning OP to me!

janey68 Sun 24-Mar-13 12:39:32

I must admit I don't recognise it in the advice given either

JulieMumsnet (MNHQ) Sun 24-Mar-13 12:51:05

Can we remind you of our talk guidelines, please?

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 12:53:20

How are talk guidelines being broken?

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 12:55:29

I don't think there's any need for personal attacks on the OP; she's just putting an opinion out there.

Not that she needs me to defend her; but maybe she's basing her opinion on more than what people post on MN?

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 12:58:27

The OP has broad shoulders!

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 12:59:06

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seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 13:00:24

The OP also directs posters to any thread about how to get men to wash up. Or not be short tempered with children. Or to remember birthdays and Mother's Day.

For starters.

MrsTwgtwf Sun 24-Mar-13 13:03:58

I think this is interesting, seeker. I hope the thread continues. For me, it's that I have those emotion-soothing skills in quantity, and so I've become accustomed to using them - but it does mean that I can sometimes take on an enabling role.

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 13:05:21

I know seeker smile

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 13:05:45

Why would the thread not continue? I'm not reporting anyone or linking to other threads or anything. And the goading accusation is bizarre.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 24-Mar-13 13:07:28

"Actually, quite often the person moaning is told that the problem is her own fault!"

Not from me they don't. hmm

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 13:07:31

I am writing this as DH washes up the lunch things. I can't see any personal attacks. Seeker could have posted on feminist chat if she wanted a cosy agreement.

somewherewest Sun 24-Mar-13 13:07:48

DH is definitely the emotion soother in our house. He's naturally a very calm, stable person, whereas I suffer on and off with anxiety issues. One partner in a relationship does sometimes seem to take on that role, but I've never thought of it as gendered. More personality type. In fact amongst the couples I can think of its more often the man.

Every thread I've ever read about an abusive relationshio has some twat saying 'well I think you could do more to help the situation so your h wouldn't need to threaten/abuse/control you'
Yesterday I read an account of a trial where a man who strangled his partner in front of their baby, using a dressing gown cord and then switching to an electric flex when the cord wasn't quick enough. He was told that his partners threats to leave him, taking her child with her, were provocation enough for that violence.
And people are complaining that the OP hasn't hedged her post around with conditionals.

Well here's some for you: some women have happy, equal relationships. Sone don't. Some women are married to such abusive shitbags and suffer such horror that it would make your hair curl just to read about it.

ALL women want to be happy, ALL women are capable of decieving themselve about their situation, ALL women may at some time or other need to stand alongside someone having a shit time and tell them it's not tehir fault.

So everybody commenting on this thread, lambasting the OP and saying what a super time they're having - good for you. Open your eyes and look around and I guarantee you there's a woman somewhere near you who isn't having a good time and you should be aware of that enough to help her.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 13:13:08

Absolutely, exoticfruits. I don't consider the suggestion that I am bitter and twisted and jealous of people in relationships with men personal attacks. I find it fits my "crone" persona nicely!

Dadthelion Sun 24-Mar-13 13:13:57

If Mumsnet represents real life the following statistics on Uk population are true.

97% of the UK population are woman.
50% are sahms.
48% went to Oxbridge.
53% are vegetarians
56% of children go to private school.
78% of the population live in the South.
1% shop in Greggs.

But 78% of statistics are incorrect.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 13:15:35

I missed that one seeker!

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 13:18:30

I kind of see where you're coming from seeker but on the flipside of that, I imagine that many women, whilst complaining and feeling hard done by by that self-selected role, would actually hate it if there were others in the family who could do the job just as well. There are plenty of threads that I read on MN where the mother perceives and behaves as if she's 'in charge'. From those threads, it's quite evident that some take pride in that perceived leadership of the family. What you're saying you're angry about would take that role away from them were they to relinquish it.

I think that male and female emotions are different; that's hard-wired and whilst either gender can try to make themselves 'more like' the other, it would be a constant effort. I think many house-sharing adults, in partnerships or otherwise, play to their strengths and find it works for them. The only time it doesn't work is when one takes on a role that the other feels should be shared or if there is a role nobody wants but must be done by somebody.

I just can't get worked up about what other people do in their own lives. It's a little bit patronising too to presume that one is an arbiter of how other people should think and behave. I saw a post on FWR board about blue and red pilll and it made me cringe. How arrogant. confused

purrpurr Sun 24-Mar-13 13:19:16

I'd just direct anyone to go and read Wifework, myself. Fairly straightforward, fairly recent analysis of how we're still conforming to gender stereotypes laid out decades ago by our grandparents, or our grandparents' grandparents.

Seeker, I think you make a good point - or several good ones - but something in the way the original post was despatched has angered the vipers. I bet if it had been written differently (not sure how but just differently) the response would've been much more agreeable.

TheRealFellatio Sun 24-Mar-13 13:19:24

Interesting. I've not read the thread yet, but I'm not sure whether we are 'expected' to do it necessarily, or whether it is a just a default setting for many women. I know it is certainly the case in my own marriage/family. I tend to try to manage/minimize problems and issues with the DCs because I worry that if a big row blows up between DH and them, or if something worrying happens it will all get out of control, or that he will not deal well with the stress. He is less good in a crisis than me I think.

But I am sure there are plenty of people with nightmare 'short fuse' or 'drama llama' mothers or sisters, and fathers/brothers who are the smoother-overers, to disagree with you!

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 24-Mar-13 13:25:16

Northern

Would that be the thread where the woman had been abusing her husband?
Or are we ignoring that bit?

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 13:27:40

I would agree with LyingWitchInTheWardrobe. I think that much more common. Many women take it upon themselves to be in charge of 'their' kitchen etc to the extent that MIL gets it in the neck if she decides to do something sensible like bring in the washing because it is about to rain!
You have to treat the man as equal. e.g. if I am ironing and he didn't like my ironing I would say 'you do it then' there is no way that I am ironing to someone else's specifications-yet women are prone to 'tut' and take over and then say he did it on purpose. DH does more ironing than I do-it is much superior-I am not a perfectionist-it is 'good enough'. If he is looking after the baby he can do it his way-he doesn't need instructions about his own child.

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 13:29:12

Utter rubbish.emotion keepers?have you been reading wimmin are goddesses self help
I keep no man sweet I'm not that servile.if one us so cowed one needs to grow a backbone
I deplore this stereotypical us women put upon by the male takers. So don't be a doormat

TheRealFellatio Sun 24-Mar-13 13:30:02

Sorry, I've realised I have made my DH sounds like an ogre in that post. confused I didn't mean to imply that he would get the belt out in moments of stress. He doesn't. grin

THere are threads on here from women who are being abused by their partners, and who have been told by friends and family to minimize it, ignore it, be a 'better wife', etc. There are threads from women whose attempts to make their male partners pull their weight domestically are constantly undermined by other people on the grounds that men shouldn't have to do domestic work, that they are no good at it, that the man 'works hard' even when he sits in an office pulling his plonker all day. There's also the stuff one hears in RL conversations: oh well at least he doesn't beat you.... You should learn how to 'manage him' better... Men are like that, though... Let me tell you dear, a man needs to be the boss in his own home. Etc.

Don't forget that two women a week are murdered by their partners or ex partners. That statistics show that married men are the happiest class of people, but single women are happier than either married women or single men.

Your partner may be a nice, lovable, fair-minded man who treats you well and does his share of housework and childcare. Jolly good. Smashing. Lucky you. It may even be true that you have actively sought out a man like that and refused to settle for a loser or an abuser, in which case well done.
But it's not 'man-hating' to attack male privilege and point out that men are not more important or more special than women, and should be expected to behave decently and do their share of work, is it?

thezebrawearspurple Sun 24-Mar-13 13:36:39

I think our opinions on gender roles (or anything for that matter) are reflective of our own personal experiences, you can't project that as everybody else's reality because it isn't. I've never felt remotely inclined to indulge anyone's emotions.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 13:39:37

Purrpurr... but something in the way the original post was despatched has angered the vipers.

Why did you post that? Do you usually post on AIBU? Participate in any discussions here or did you just follow the FWR crowd to poke fun at the 'plebs' here? Any valid point that you might have made is negated by your pointless jibing. What a productive time you're having... hmm

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 13:40:07

Circumstance,personality,culture,upbringing all determine how we manage emotions
Not all women are emotionally caoeavble not all men are emotionally incapable
One can moderate and adjust ones emotions and behaviour it's not genetically predetermined

Boneyback - I believe we are talking about the same case yes. The one where his defence claimed she had so belittled him that anybody would have made a murderous assault. The one where he was away from the home and came back to it to assault her. The one where she begged him not to kill her. That one yes?

Machli Sun 24-Mar-13 13:41:53

In my house it was everyone keep Mum happy because she had a terrifying temper and was physically abusive.

In ex in-laws house it was everyone keep Dad happy because he had a terrifying temper and was emotionally and mentally abusive.

So ime it's the one who throws the biggest tantrums that gets pandered to, male or female.

Though from reading threads on here I do think it is expected more from women and that was certainly my experience when married to ex and within his extended family.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 13:44:39

I don't think that it is anything to do with 'vipers'-it was just posted on AIBU where you get a complete cross section of women. You could easily have a cosy little discussion on feminist chat-many women stay off it altogether because you are only allowed one view.

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 13:45:34

SGB In my opinion men and women are equal neither is above the other but it seems so many feminists believe that they are above men that's not fighting for equality and is just as bad as the "male privilege" you're talking about. Women are abused by men not all women not even the majority and women themselves can be abusers we need to remember that.

No one is arguing that any person being abused by their partner is in the wrong just that not everyone is abused in fact its nowhere near the majority being abused. Its OK too for a woman to be happy with her partner and she should not be made to feel guilty about it.

I am not superior to my husband he is not superior to me I would not expect him to abuse me nor would I abuse him. We are equal and that's how it should be. On the other hand my DH is emotionally abused by my MIL as are my FIL and SIL and they always have been but it gets shrugged off. Why? because in everyone elses eyes they're men and shes a woman so its not abuse and they should just put up with it.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 13:45:48

So ime it's the one who throws the biggest tantrums that gets pandered to, male or female

Very true.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 13:46:08

Or maybe the biggest sulker.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 13:51:48

"it seems so many feminists believe that they are above men"

Examples please!

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 13:54:55

SGB I think that you must read a different MN to me as I have never seen advice like that dished out on here. I also have NEVER heard women speak to other women in the way you describe in RL - we must have very different life experiences. Particularly enjoy the way you belittle a man in an office job saying he is 'pulling his plonker all day'. WTAF?

I do not think that women in happy, equal relationships seek to pretend that dreadful abusive relationships exist but I think that making silly sweeping generalisations are not a good way to make a point. All women are not the same and neither are all men.

I do not appreciate being called a viper by whichever poster that was - make a point if you have one rather than pathetic name calling.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 13:54:59

I am still waiting for the link to a relationship thread where MNetters tell the OP to appease the abusive man.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 13:58:46

'but single women are happier than either married women or single men.'

Well you say that, and I'm sure there are, but for every happy single women there's an unhappy one who wants a partner.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 14:00:48

Sorry, exotic-I'm not linking to another thread on a thread that's being "watched!". It wasn't a relationships thread that prompted this one, anyway.

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 14:01:26

Seeker I will if you'll post the examples you've been asked to give several times about MNetters telling abusive women to appease their abuser. smile

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 14:03:13

OK -but I really don't think that I have ever heard that advice except from hearsay from 1950's women's magazines. Certainly not on MN-where 'leave the bastard' has become a joke because it is the normal advice.

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 14:03:16

Oh yawn at the clichetastic quips.men in office pull their plonkers all day?
And women are working doing all emotional work and put upon too
Maybe your man pulls his plonker all day?maybe you're emotion keeper? No reality to my life or that if my friends

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 24-Mar-13 14:06:27

Yes Northern, the one where he suffered Psychological abuse through out the relationship and she had been sending him abusive text messages through out the day.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 14:07:32

Oh scottishmummy- that post doesn't even make sense.
Peach- as I've said, a) I'm not linking to a thread, and b) it wasn't a relationships thread that promted this one. You said "many feminists believe that they are above men" which is a statement that needs evidence.

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 14:12:37

Peach- as I've said, a) I'm not linking to a thread, and b) it wasn't a relationships thread that promted this one. You said "many feminists believe that they are above men" which is a statement that needs evidence.

"but it seems so many feminists believe that they are above men"

Why do I need to give evidence of how I interpret peoples actions but you don't need to? What difference does it make that it wasn't a relationships thread that prompted this one? Why does your statement not need evidence but mine does?

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 14:14:56

Emotion keepers what navel gazing socialsciencetastic book did that originate from?
I keep no man sweet,if you think that fate awaits your daughter that's v fatalistic
So do you keep men sweet?don't include me in your presumed servility

Abusive text messages, yes that's right. Good job he strangled her eh? Who knows what she would have resorted to next!

StickEmUp Sun 24-Mar-13 14:20:08

* Good job he strangled her eh? Who knows what she would have resorted to next!*

How true!

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 14:20:22

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.” -– Valerie Solanas

“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French

5 minutes on google found me those quotes all from self proclaimed feminists.

thezebrawearspurple Sun 24-Mar-13 14:24:43

The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine. — Abraham Lincoln

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 14:42:57

To be fair peach,those quotes bear no relation to feminism.they're ill tempered rants
Certainly a minority may feel that,but not the majority I suspect
All isms have range of opinion,and that's a good thing to encourage vociferous debate

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 14:47:53

'The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine. — Abraham Lincoln'

You could read the comments on feminist websites. I'm guessing those quotes are genuine..the ones about eugenics (men must be genetically modified, apparently) and handing baby boys over to the authorities so women don't have to raise them (although there was a debate about whether those boys would STILL be raised by women, even if not their mothers, and how that was not on...as women should not have to raise their oppressors).

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 14:48:39

Oh I know that Scottish its lazy of me to just swipe those quotes but to be fair at 9 months pregnant with an ill child I'm not going to put in the effort of finding proper examples when OP can't even be bothered to prove her own point and I'm rather enjoying the argument/debate grin

TheFallenMadonna Sun 24-Mar-13 14:54:47

It's a bit of a rarefied sample there though. Not "so many feminists".

Unless you are buying into the whole hairy legged lesbian hoohah. Surely not?

Peach - why should the OP expose those women who have posted here again to the 'yes, but' antics of those who 'enjoy the argument' of apologising for oppression?

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 15:06:34

Northern Please point out to me where I have said that its right that woman keep their men sweet? Is the OP the only one allowed to enjoy an argument or debate then? I have not once said that I think it is right for any person to be abused by another or that one sex should be regarded as above the other sex.

ChestyLeRoux Sun 24-Mar-13 15:09:34

Just dony do it then and then your daughters wouldnt grow up doing it.

Peach, quite honestly I despise your views. I despise that you will excuse male violence by saying 'women can be abusers too' and I despise your attacks on feminism and feminists. If you don't want to be seen as an apologist for oppression, I suggest you have a rethink on those points.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 15:15:40

"I am not going to link to the particular thread that cause me to post because it would not be fair to the OP of that thread if people piled over to look- it's still very active.

Hmmm. Quotations from known extremists in the 1970s used to support a statement about what view of "many feminists" believe in 2013!

How about I find a few quotations from "The Surrendered Wife" to support my point of view? Or from a novel by Barbara Cartland?

PeachActiviaMinge Sun 24-Mar-13 15:26:34

Northern You can despise what you think I believe that's up to you but to be honest you are just proving what a lot of people believe of feminists by not listening to what I am actually saying and changing it to suit what you want. I in no way agree with anyone abusing another person but I do not believe it is just women who should be protected from abuse.

All humans are equal in my opinion I am not an apologist for abuse you can believe it if you want but I know what I truly am and what I believe.

Seeker - frankly I can't be bothered to debate with you anymore you obviously believe rightly or wrongly what you believe you will not prove your points as you are supposedly protecting someone from their words on an open forum being looked at which is frankly pathetic.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 15:26:47

Why do women (and it is ALWAYS women), get so angry about what other women do? How they bring up their children, how they manage their homes and relationships? ... and a hundred other instances. Why? Does it really bring about change?

Quite honestly, when I read a post that's jeering/putting down others/belittling beliefs or ideas and generally just done to provoke, I wonder what the purpose of it was. I don't take on board any points made because I'm so distracted by the spite. There are some wonderful posters on MN; vociferous and informative and their views make me think and challenge what I thought I knew. Goady posters never do. Perhaps they operate like the 'Go Compare' adverts... keep on long enough and somebody will sign up?

<shrugs>... I normally don't bother to post or comment when 'feminism' stomps into AIBU.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 15:28:29

yy about the horrible term 'apologists'; so often misapplied and very unfair.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 15:30:30

Peach- I am not going to link to a thread where there is a real person talking about her life merely to illustrate a point on a thread about how people in general behave. I would have thought anyone with an ounce of empathy would understand that.

purrpurr Sun 24-Mar-13 15:32:59

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 13:39:37
... but something in the way the original post was despatched has angered the vipers.

Why did you post that? Do you usually post on AIBU? Participate in any discussions here or did you just follow the FWR crowd to poke fun at the 'plebs' here? Any valid point that you might have made is negated by your pointless jibing. What a productive time you're having... hmm

Excuse me? Are you kidding me? I do normally post on AIBU, actually. And I also participate in discussions. The term 'nest of vipers' has been used in an affectionate sense to describe the wonderfully varied community that is Mumsnet for some considerable time. I'm ever so sorry that you're some sort of clenched up newbie that wasn't aware of that fact. Do unclench, dear heart, you're asking for a lifetime of constipation if you continue. Shame.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 15:51:26

'Hmmm. Quotations from known extremists in the 1970s used to support a statement about what view of "many feminists" believe in 2013'

Known extremists? I wouldn't let your more radical (extremist) sisters hear you calling 1970's radicals that. They wouldn't be best pleased. Anyway, the 2000's feminists are just as provocative, as I'm sure you're aware.

Oppression apologist? Well that's a new one. I am also a cat apologist, they chew up so much wildlife, but I still fuss them. I could extend 'apologist' to a great deal of my actions in life, but I don't, because I'd sound pretty daft. Perhaps others should be thinking the same.

'All humans are equal in my opinion ' - and that's the problem with your argument. 'are equal' - present tense and thereby you deny the existence of oppression. So if all humans are equal, why is rape used as an act of war? Why do women's refuges exist? Why do many countries across the globe have equality legistlation? Why, on this forum, in the last month, have we been asked if pregnancy and redundancy 'coincided'? To give just a few wideranging examples.

Lyingwitch - what a revealing turn of phrase there. Of course feminists and feminism 'stomps' doesn't it? Whereas wise and clever women glide their way through, not provoking, simply 'managing'? Nice example of the Op's argument right there.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 16:14:08

NorthernLurker... You made me smile. I used the word 'stomp'; I meant it. The posts made on AIBU of a feminist slant are always provocative. The OP seeks a reaction and will write in any way to get it. Comments along the lines of 'why post it here and not in feminism where you will get complete agreement', are met with snarling derision (I meant 'snarling' too, just for clarity). I use the word 'stomping' as it describes what I think of such posts, which are always 'in your face' and are intended to be. Feminism posts are not the only ones but they always are written this way when for an AIBU audience.

There's nothing wrong with 'stomping' or 'snarling' 'managing' or 'gliding' come to that; they're all just adjectives. I wear safety boots most days and most definitely stomp, never glide. I have to compensate for my unfeminine ensemble with skirts and dresses...

Do we all really have to argue over something as basic as who soothes whom in a family set-up? I really don't get it.

Jux Sun 24-Mar-13 16:14:27

I grew up with a dad and two brothers. It never occurred to any of us that anyone needed to be kept sweet. However, when I married, I found that almost all dh's male friends behaved as if that was a woman's role, MIL and sFIL did too, and sadly so did dh. He found that I wasn't up for it, so followed many years of difficulty as he vied for 'supremacy'.

16 years on and he's a bit more human, and dd won't take any shit from anyone.

It's been bloody tough, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. In fact, if ot for some unavoidable factors, it would never have happened, but hey.

I really ought to nc now. Bugger.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 16:20:21

Why do women (and it is ALWAYS women), get so angry about what other women do? How they bring up their children, how they manage their homes and relationships? ... and a hundred other instances. Why? Does it really bring about change?

I always ask this and have not had an answer yet. I think it is insecurity and if a woman decides upon a course of action it has to be best.
There is a view that there is the magical way and if you simply do a,b,c and d then you get the perfect outcome. This ignores the fact that it is only ever 'best' for you and we are all different (and so are children). People feel so guilty if it doesn't fit them e.g. a woman at the moment has a baby who isn't cuddly and feels it must be her fault-not merely that she has a baby who likes his own space-not helped by MIL who then says 'baby is rejecting her'!!!
My pet hate (especially found on feminist sites) is the one that if you don't think the 'right' way then you have just gone down the traditional line without thought-not that you have had the same information and come to a perfectly valid but different conclusion!
If women just quietly got on with being role models then the DCs would take it in as normal and if men just quietly got on with being role models there wouldn't be a problem. My DSs don't have to be told they need to think of taking the rubbish out and they need to cook if they get in before the girlfriend-it is just what they have seen. e.g. if their father's button came off he got needle and cotton and stitched back-he didn't expect the mother to have superior skills because she is a woman!
All the fuss comes from women who have never had equality and want society in general to sort it out rather than sit their own DP down and sort it out. They also assume that everyone has the same problem.

seeker Sun 24-Mar-13 16:30:52

Sigmund- I don't know anyone- and I know a lot of people who wouldn't agree that Valerie Solanas was an extremist!

Catmint Sun 24-Mar-13 16:39:17

I think it is legitimate to be provocative (not offensive) in the cause of feminism. By feminism I mean equality, not one gender having dominion over another.

I also think it is equally important that all the arguments have empathy at their heart. Otherwise it is just pseudo intellectual ranting.

Catmint Sun 24-Mar-13 16:40:40

Or actual intellectual ranting - all brain, no heart.

People over ideas. Respect for all.

'All the fuss comes from women who have never had equality and want society in general to sort it out rather than sit their own DP down and sort it out. They also assume that everyone has the same problem.'

By 'fuss' you mean resistance to being oppressed and abused, yes? Well you've got me bang to rights there. I'm a shocker for making a fuss about that. hmm

Look, yes I do assume everyone has the same problem because I believe that our society systematically and endemically has a problem with women. I believe that misogyny lies at the heart of a huge amount of behaviour and I believe that women suffer because of that. As a woman, the daughter of a woman, the mother of women to be, I object to that. Personally i am safe in my own home. I have respect from my husband in my own home. That doesn't mean I'm happy just to wallow around whilst other women endure oppression.

Also re 'provocative' posting. Well of course feminism is provocative - but then so is pretty much everything posted on AIBU. It's a confrontational forum that invites you take sides. Is it just the feminists who are supposed to play nicely even here?

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 17:09:36

I don't personally know any women who are oppressed, I realise that there are lots-especially in 3rd world countries, but I think that people need to get the men in their own lives sorted out-and then tackle it.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 17:12:17

I don't know how you can help the oppressed if you have grown up in UK and had parents who have grown up with parents in the culture of UK and yet you have to appease the man in your life. Why did you start and why are you still doing it?

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 17:13:24

I think that most people who help the oppressed have to get out of oppression first or they are not much help.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 24-Mar-13 17:20:30

Northern I notice that you hgave only quoted the abusive texts part of my reply.

You have done the same to my post as you have to the story in the newspapers, taken the bits you "like" and ignored the rest.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 17:21:36

Not at all, NorthernLurker... AIBU, whilst 'not a fight club' <head tilt to MNHQ who may or may not be lurking> is still the home of the bunfight and the most popular board here by a country mile.

I'm not opposed to feminism by any means. I don't like posts which mop up swaythes of people (especially women) and intimate or directly accuse them of being wrong/stupid/lazy/insert favourite put-down here if they believe this or that or don't do this or have the gaul to do that. An example would be:

* AIBU to think that people who write in text speak are dim?
* AIBU to think that people who put their children in boarding school are bad parents?
* AIBU to think that women who don't consider themselves to be feminists are stupid?
* AIBU to be angry that women don't consider that they're being used if they iron their husband's shirts?

I've seen all of these threads (and of similar ilk). Now, for the typical goady threads (not feminism related), I don't wonder at all; they're timewastes and for me they're written by posters who feel insecure, were bitchy at school and are probably quite insignificant in their real lives now. Posting what they do is the only way they can feel that they 'matter'.

I really wonder why however, feminists, having a genuinely valid cause, would be so scathing to their audience? What's the point of writing an inflammatory post that is more like to get people's backs up? Some of the replies will be from irate posters who (like myself) will have missed the point of the thread because the language is accusatory. The message has been lost, assuming that there was one. If there was, what a waste. If not, what was it all about?

I've often felt that women are their own worst enemies and I read posts here and believe that to be the case. We can't seem to stop needling each other. Where's the sisterhood in that? It really puzzles me. I'm probably not explaining myself very well but truly, I'm missing the point of the need for attacking other women here. It seems endemic...

'I don't personally know any women who are oppressed' - I bet you do. Know anybody whose boyfriend influences who they see and when? Know anybody who has been raped within a relationship? Know anybody who has come home from work in distress because of how they've been treated and they were treated that way because they are a woman?

Your point about the culture of the UK exactly illustrates the point tbh - we don't live in an equal culture at all. What gave you the idea that we do? Women are allowed to drive and we don't have a marriage bar on employment anymore but this is not an equal culture. SGB mentioned lower down that 2 women a week are murdered by tehir partners. WHY is that?

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 17:31:44

There no such thing as sisterhood,it's social construct to keep us distracted and in our place
And that place is apparently thinking about women's issues and assumption we is all sisters
It's like when women are presumed to want to talk about women issues,as opposed to umm other issues

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 24-Mar-13 17:37:34

Oh really, scottishmummy? Well, we women are at a disadvantage then, aren't we, as there is certainly a "boys' club" mentality. I've seen many examples of 'look after the boys' from school through to working life. If we don't have a 'sisterhood' or any concept of that then I guess we're destined to impotently blethering on a chatboard.

On your point regarding women's issues, I haven't come across that. I work in a male dominated discipline and the work issues are thankfully gender-less.
The only place that I see discussion of typically 'womens' issues' is here on MN (I don't go on other chatboards).

countrykitten Sun 24-Mar-13 17:40:16

I wonder about class being more of an issue than gender tbh.

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 17:41:02

Sisterhoods is flawed premise,based on apparent kinship based upon gender
Not all men get each other simply by gender,not and not all women get each other by gender
Class,education,politics are factors in whether or not I concur.not necessarily gender

Boney you're right. I didn't explicitly add that you said she was abusive towards him. The abuse that consisted of the text messages, some 'intellectual belittling' and some jealousy of his ex. That's reasonable provocation for a prolonged murderous attack is it? An attack he followed up with text messages designed to give the impression that she was ok and hadn't just been killed in her own home.

Well if I'd only included that - gives a different picture does it?

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 17:46:43

I don't personally know any women who are oppressed' - I bet you do. Know anybody whose boyfriend influences who they see and when? Know anybody who has been raped within a relationship? Know anybody who has come home from work in distress because of how they've been treated and they were treated that way because they are a woman?

To be perfectly honest -no I don't. I admit that I am an intelligent woman living in what you would term a 'nice' area and am somewhat sheltered.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 17:47:31

'I wonder about class being more of an issue than gender tbh.'

Yes, that's exactly it. Most feminist issues are class issues. DV is a class issue, for example, this was reported on by the home office.

There is no lower status than a homeless male in the UK.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 17:48:21

I still think that if you are to help others you have to have liberated yourself first. People do as you do, they don't say 'I will do as she says', knowing perfectly well that you haven't done it yourself.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 17:55:07

If ever you have people who go into schools to talk about issues-it is always someone who has been there and come out the other side -they are the ones with experience who are listened to-mainly with how they got out and changed. It is no help at all to say 'I am in this situation-don't do it'-far too wishy washy.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 24-Mar-13 18:01:33

Northern again you are only putting a part of the picture forward and twisting that to your own ends.

NB. I don't agree with what he did, and I don't have all of the evidence so I am not going to comment on the sentence. But part stories really get my goat.

WorraLiberty Sun 24-Mar-13 18:03:46

I totally agree with Lying here...especially her post at 15:26:47

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 18:18:11

You can generally tell from the start. When I met DH and cooked him a meal for the first time he washed up. I took him to my mother's for a meal and he went to wash up-she is a good cook but she never washes up as she goes along and it horrendous! He has been washing up after her for over 20 years now. If he hadn't offered the first time I would have given him a tea towel and said 'I'll wash and you can dry'. He has never changed since-but there wouldn't be an option. Had he expected it all done for him then we would have parted company long ago. I have never done more than my fair share-I grew up with brothers and we had a strict rota-no way would I have done more than them -not that it was ever suggested I should.

Twisting the picture? What you mean like the Defence in the case were required to do? I've put everything I've read in the public domain in that last post actually. If there's more out there I haven't read it - and so what if there is. What excuses him killing her? What excuses him being so much in control of himself that he switched weapon AND sent texts designed to confuse afterwards.

Exotic and sigmund - you need to take a look at this campaign, Domestic violence occurs to all agres of women and women in all classes. Being educated and living in a naice area are no defence.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 18:22:40

No-it isn't-but I still don't personally know any.

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 18:33:16

seeker - YANBU - I like your phrase "emotion keepers"

I think this is an interesting area to discuss. But maybe not in AIBU...

Did you ever see the cognative dissonance threads in FWR a few year back?

Here's an example from my life from years ago from now MIL. Now DH (then boyfriend )was off to the other side of the world for a few weeks. We're all at the airport saying goodbye to him. Bit tearful (not weeping and wailing) she says "You. Don't. Show. The. Menfolk. You're. Upset" <like we were in some bloody war film or summat>

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 18:36:53

btw NorthernLurker thanks for making time to talk sense about that hideous court case from the other day - a good example really of applying different standards between men and women.

Also of course what the judge said about Vicky Price. <obviously she should have kept all that revenge inside etc and not been so vindictive and spiteful hmm> - real double standard applied their by the judge

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 18:38:19

exoticfruits - do you accept that you are very likely statistically speaking to know of women experiencing DV and that have experienced rape?

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 24-Mar-13 18:43:56

NorthernLurker

"What you mean like the Defence in the case were required to do?"

Do you have evidence for this or is it supposition?

I don't excuse his actions, I believe that they are wrong.

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 18:44:50

I've been reading and nodding along with your posts NorthernLurker

I think there's still a huge lack of understanding around DV (which we all, I hope, know means more than just physical violence). It's not just a "lower class" problem.

Evidence for what? I am not disputing that she sent him abusive text messages or threatened to leave him. I am disputing that those incidents or the previous difficulties in the relationship in any way jutify, explain or excuse him returning to the house and making a prolonged and murderous assault on her. Given that he's been found guilty of manslaughter not murder and he got 7 years for that crime I think that's evidence enough that his Defence involved some twisting of the situation to show in his favour.

Exotic - unless you have a very small and very lucky circle of acquaintence then you do know women who are being or have been abused actually. You just don't know about it. Scary isn't it? Because you don't 'just know' when you meet somebody. Why would all these women become involved in violent and abusive relationships? hmm

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 18:57:28

'Exotic and sigmund - you need to take a look at this campaign, Domestic violence occurs to all agres of women and women in all classes. Being educated and living in a naice area are no defence.'

So the latest Home Office report stating that DV is primarily affects the lower class isn't true? I didn't say it ONLY affected the lower classes. If I'm looking at a DV campaign I need to see a balanced one. As most people know (or at least SHOULD know) DV affects men, with 40% of all cases being men. I didn't see the other half of the population in the campaign you linked to, so afaik, that is not a balanced DV campaign.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 24-Mar-13 19:01:51

Northern
I agree that they don't excuse him. But we don't know all the evidence, nor that the defence twisted anything. We just know what has been put in the papers.

No it's no 'balanced'. It's a feminist campaign, standing up for the rights of women not be abused at the hands of men. How would you like it to be balanced? hmm What's the source for your statistic btw?
You said DV was a class issue. It isn't.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 19:19:03

Of course it is across the board-but I am older than average and know a lot of divorced women who have got out. They haven't stayed even a woman who was born in India who came over with her Indian husband-she waited until the youngest was 18yrs and it meant that she was ostracised by all her family but she left and got divorced. She was a teacher, able to earn her own living-no woman needs a meal ticket these days.
DS had a flat mate who irritated him to death-terribly messy and he was going to ask him to leave when he moved out to live with his girlfriend-you would hope that the girlfriend gave him the 'heave ho' after 2 weeks.(probably didn't and will end up with 2 children and moaning about him)
Parents also need to train early. I am amazed by the number who do everything for their children-10 year olds that are not allowed to use kettles and sharp knives when they are perfectly capable of cooking the dinner. They are not suddenly going to do these things-they need to be trained-and it isn't the mother's job-the father can just as easily teach them.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 24-Mar-13 19:24:34

The 40% statistic is from the British Crime Survey and Home Office statistical bulletins

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 19:24:51

You also need to stand up to people and half the time they back down. When I had low paid jobs as a student there were 2 occasions where I felt I was exploited. I just went to see the management and told them, quite politely but firmly,that I wasn't doing it. Both times they stopped doing it. Maybe I was just lucky but they sure would have kept on doing it if I had just kept quiet.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 19:25:12

Well you're among a small handfull of people who hasn't tried to state that feminism is balanced, so that's something, most fall over themselves to state it's about equality. DV is a class issue, if we're talking about who commits the most DV. This does not mean that it doesn't happen within higher/middle classes...just to a lesser extent.

It's not a statistic, btw, it's a report with actual figures from the home office. So the Home Office is the source. Which is a balanced source.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 19:29:08

My 23yr old nephew has just managed to get out of an abusive relationship with a woman with mental problems. It wasn't easy because he thought he could help-unfortunately it was with a great cost to his mental health -and once he was strong enough to make the break he was a different person.
I think the problem with the abusive women is a largely hidden one-most men wouldn't admit to it.

hmm Of course feminism isn't about starting from a position of equality. It's about resisting patriarchy which causes inequality and oppression. Equality between the sexes is the ultimate goal but no feminist campaign is going to seek to argue for the position of men. When people whine that a feminist campaign doesn't include men - well that's the point! The statistics you refer to are reported crime aren't they? That does not reflect the repeated nature of the abuse women suffer. Most victims are women. Most abusers are men. It staggers me frankly that women would in any way wish to defend male abuse of power.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 19:40:22

I just don't see why we have to assume that all men abuse power-when we know lots that don't.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 19:40:22

'Of course feminism isn't about starting from a position of equality'

Not what I said.

some info for you

Includes the home office link.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 19:43:31

Most interesting link-the abuse of men was much higher than I thought-showing that it is a hidden problem not talked about.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 19:45:23

'Most victims are women. Most abusers are men.'

Utter bollocks. Here, in the UK, that is utter bollocks. As evidenced by factual reports.

simplesusan Sun 24-Mar-13 19:48:36

I am really struggle to believe that as many men are abused as women.

Are as many men killed by their partner/ex partner as women are by their partner/ex partner?

I really don't think so.

simplesusan Sun 24-Mar-13 19:53:25

Obviously abuse doesn't always result in death. However this would be a clear factor in determining one form of abuse and you cannot argue with these facts.
Sadly this has reminded me of a friend whose mother was murdered by her step father. It was pre-meditated and he only served a total of 10 years in prison.
As a child I remember a female neighbour being murdered by her husband, their 2 children were asleep in bed.

I personally do not know of the reverse situation, ie female violence against males, although I am not saying it doesn't happen at all.

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 19:55:07

From that report by the ONS linked above - "more women are likely to be victims of domestic abuse".

Plus, if men are reporting domestic abuse, it's not a secret, or unknown, is it?

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 19:57:44

Almost as many men are abused by women as women are abused by men.

We are fed the lie that women cannot abuse, and that women are always the victim. This does a huge disservice to society in general. This means that men (our sons/brothers etc) could be abused but it won't be taken seriously, this is a huge cause for concern to me as a mother of DS's. Amongst many other things..

Anyway, I'm getting a little tired of banging this drum, I appear to be on my own when it comes to this subject..it gets wearing.

Well I'm sure Womens Aid would be pleased to know that statement was bollocks. Weight off their minds for sure hmm

No actually you know what is bollocks? The way feminism and feminist campaigning is undermined by women who are so scared of offending men that they do their abusive work for them. (Which is exactly what this thread was orginally about too) By denying that a situation even exists. The majority of abuse in relationships is committed by men against women. Women are far more likely than men to also be emotionally and financially abused. Women are murdered by men. In their own homes by the people they trusted. It almost baffles me as to why this situation does not terrify and enrage every single woman in this country. But it doesn't does it? We have all the crap of 'that happens to other women'. Women who are too shrill, too bossy, too sexually available, not sexually available enough, women who don't leave, women who do leave, taking kids with them, women who earn too much, women who don't earn enough. On and on and for every case like Carmen Buchacra you will have women standing up for the men involved. Failing to see that it wasn't just a matter of him and her. Violence in the home isn't only felt there. It ripples right through society.

simplesusan Sun 24-Mar-13 20:10:41

Sigmund-How many men do you know who were murdered by their partner?

It is a very simple question.

Oh I have thought of another woman, killed by her boyfriend she lived near a friend of mine. Her violent boyfriend also killed her daughter and thought he had killed her other child too, except they survived and lived to tell the tale.

Yet I do not know of any man killed in this way.

Yet you still keep on insisting that violence is committed equally by both sexes.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 20:11:08

Women's Aid, whilst I'm sure are doing great things for women who need help, are very biased, to put it mildly. If you asked a Mormon preacher to consider an athiest's pov, you'd expect to get short shrift wouldn't you.

Yeah,yeah, I'm scared of offending men etc.

I doubt you have a single original, unscripted thought in your head. You are scared of offending women, why else would you refuse to accept that women are not perpetual victims. You do women no favours whatsoever. I'm no victim.

AutumnMadness Sun 24-Mar-13 20:13:37

Seeker, I know exactly what you mean. The emotion work is for me totally entwined with how our society defines "female". We can be strong, independent, self-sufficient, but we've got to be perceptive, caring, supportive, accommodating, and upwards on the scale to full ego-stroking. My DH is not too bad, but six days out of seven a week he comes back from work (and we do the same job!) and starts the song with the "oh work is shit . . . this colleague is a bastard . . ." refrain. And I am supposed to listen to it. I usually roll my eyes and run for the hills, but it does not seem to deter him in the slightest.

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 20:14:16
SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 20:15:08

simplesusan - I don't know exactly how many men were murdered by their partner. I never said it was a difficult question.

I, in fact do know of a man who was killed by his female partner. I also know of a woman who was killed by her male partner.

I'm not sure what the point of this is.

I never said it was committed equally. I said that the percentage (as evidenced above) of DV was 40/60.

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 20:16:27

Saying that women are more likely to be victims of domestic abuse and are also more likely to be killed by their partner more ex partner is simply stating the truth.

I'm not making that up, it's from the ONS report on crime linked above.

I'm fairly sure (although may be wrong) that the ONS isn't exclusively staffed by radical feminists.

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 20:22:38

Isn't it shocking, that despite DV being 40/60, the HO dedicates a space to women/girls and not men? I find that quite shocking.

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 20:34:42

Yeah goodluck with getting that changed *SigmundFraude". YOU WON'T.

This is not because there is never any violence by women against men it because the 60/40 does not tell the story in terms of:

seriousness of attacks/length of time abuse has been going on/spurious reports by men once police have been called/the power imbalance between mean and women

Do you know what I was feeling a bit down about this thread but actually you've changed my mindset. I am so glad to live in a country where there at least is a HO campaign against VAWG.

Thank you to all my feminist forebares who overcame the arguments of those who came before SigmundFraude!

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 20:35:53

lovely typo there mean = men

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 24-Mar-13 20:42:33

simplesusan

NCDV has the number of men killed by their partners as 1 every three weeks

Half way down the first paragraph

Yes I know that its not the on average 2 women per week.

HandbagCrab Sun 24-Mar-13 20:46:01

I see me and my friends/ family/ colleagues every day taking on the emotional and decision making responsibility for their family unit. It's on mumsnet every day. How many male dominated forums have 'what's for tea?' threads, organising Christmas threads, discussions on how to juggle work with after school clubs and looking after the house? How many men plan, buy and cook the bulk of the meals in their homes? How many men take responsibility for packing for a holiday, organising a child's tea party, knowing all the family birthdays? Is it really 50/50?

Why when lots of men don't do this do we look to the women to say they are infantilising these men so they don't feel empowered to say, organise a playdate? Why would a woman want to be 'queen of the kitchen' or 'lead parent' when we as a society don't value these roles anyway? Surely such a ball breaker should be putting her effort into being a high court judge or something?

SigmundFraude Sun 24-Mar-13 20:49:13

'Do you know what I was feeling a bit down about this thread but actually you've changed my mindset'

Of course you've changed it, most people don't have the presence of mind to do any different. I would be very surprised if you had examined my point of view, despite the fact that I was merely pointing out than men experience DV.

Most women long to fit in (with other women) and on here the posters are predominately women, a lot are feminists, and feminists are more than adept than most at ensuring that we know what we need to do to fit in.

<shrugs>

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 21:23:44

confused

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 21:26:19

When men are responsible for packing for holidays, getting the tea, organising Christmas etc they are not on Internet forums discussing it - I never go on them myself- they are deadly boring.. AutumnMadness- people generally talk about their day. If you are not remotely interested why are you with him? If I have a bad day I come home and unload - so do all my female friends.
The only times I have had to stand up for myself at work it has been a woman boss.

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 21:29:15

Lapsus you and me both.

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 21:30:02

What emotional work are you doing by rolling eyes,thinking here we go and ignoring?
Frankly if your dh gets on your wick that much you two have problems
Mutually supportive couples don't roll eyes and think oh not again

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 21:32:59

bloody hell that's the most lucid post I've read from scottishmummy for years

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 21:33:20

If that's aimed at me you're on the wrong track there, I'm single. The only person I get to roll eyes at is the cat grin.

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 21:35:47

Keep up

LapsusLinguae Sun 24-Mar-13 21:35:50

I think it was to AutumnMadness Sun 24-Mar-13 20:13:37

but scottish mummy doesn't approve of bolding etc nor creepy wee brackets/strikeouts etc

flippinada Sun 24-Mar-13 21:39:48

<rolls eyes at the cat>

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 21:41:45

Some women just enjoy getting ready for Christmas- come August they will start threads- my only contribution is to say 'good god - it is months away' - I don't know how you stop them!

scottishmummy Sun 24-Mar-13 21:42:18

And some women skivvy about like blue arsed flies,then moan so hard done to
Ok,so stop buying your dp pants,if there a party due do let dp buy and wrap a present
Some of the posts of long lists of inane tasks on mn, read and think no sympathy you're got busy bum

Lapsus - count me in to the confused too.

Have to say I've had a huge <<snurk>> at Women's Aid being biased. That's right - all that work helping women escape abuse has led them to the bias conclusion there's a fair bit of violence against women in our society. hmm Really?

Tortington Sun 24-Mar-13 21:56:42

but its ok for women to be chatty about things like 'what's for dinner' isn't it?

This thread is all over the place, i'm not really sure what the prevailing argument is.

emotionally - dh buys and sends his family birthday cards. when he forgets MIL blames me. smile

DH does put me in position of parent. If he doesn't take reposability for issues which he has personally, that affect me.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 22:02:22

Women appear to be making themselves such victims! AutumnMadness is infantilising herself by rolling eyes at moans about work. Why not communicate properly? If you really don't want to know, or think he is exaggerating why not sit him down and say so? If you couldn't care less why stay with him. If you don't want to organise play dates or buy his mother a card then why not share it out? Communicate.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 22:04:33

The prevailing argument is that you can't have a blanket 'all' men, in the same way that you can't have a blanket 'all' women. In this day and age you don't have to put up with sexist behaviour in your own home.

ItsallisnowaFeegle Mon 25-Mar-13 00:14:43

I've just read your opinion on my whole relationship based on a few lines that I DID find amusing, Chandon, along with my tale of always seeing to the baby at meal times.

My DP is a dick at times, as am I. And?

I am not attempting to make light of a situation that's in need of your pity or advice.

If/ when I require you to advise me on where my life is going wrong, I will start a thread and ask for advice.

AutumnMadness Mon 25-Mar-13 10:19:14

In response to the people who are wondering why I am either a) a selfish unsupportive harrigan or b) married to the wrong man:

1. My husband does have some good qualities that make him rather endearing to me. I generally do not talk about them here because they do not an interesting story make. (or would you like to hear about it?)

2. I used to, and still do on a regular basis, listen to his daily moan. But hearing it nearly every day for years does get a bit tiring. So yes, I do roll my eyes. Quite openly. I refuse to be used as a hankie for all the negativity. I am always supportive in cases of serious problems. It is the expectation that I will be the mummy to soak up all the overblown frustrations resulting from the daily nonsense that everybody experiences that drives me crazy. I repeat - my DH and I work in the same place doing exactly the same job. Why is it that I do not feel the need to bitch about work every single night to my DH as a captive audience?

Don't take me wrong, I love my husband. But the example I gave is just a small tiny bit of the emotional work that women are expected to perform. The popular reaction to the ASDA/Morrisons adverts this Christmas just proves this point.

The thing that I find incredibly interesting is that there are so many people on this thread crying "it's the women's fault for taking all these responsibilities onto themselves and excluding men!" However, when I post (and not just on this thread) examples of how I actively refuse this total responsibility and try to include my DH into the traditionally female world in my daily live, I am regularly accused of being uncaring and/or married to the wrong man. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Classic feminist issue.

AutumnMadness Mon 25-Mar-13 10:23:52

"Women appear to be making themselves such victims! AutumnMadness is infantilising herself by rolling eyes at moans about work. Why not communicate properly? If you really don't want to know, or think he is exaggerating why not sit him down and say so?"

exoticfruits, do you really think I am a total muppet and have not tried sitting down and talking?

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 25-Mar-13 17:59:27

"my DH and I work in the same place doing exactly the same job. Why is it that I do not feel the need to bitch about work every single night to my DH as a captive audience?"

For one of my many jobs I used to do workplace surveys. For one of these I was surveying a bank, I found that the female counterstaff were generally happier than the male counterstaff, on spending sometime observing them I saw that agressive people with a problem went to the male staff.

Just because its the same job doesn't mean that it has the same problems or issues.

countrykitten Mon 25-Mar-13 19:09:19

I moan about my job to my DH - often. Never as much as when I had a bullying female boss though He listens to me and empathises as I do when he has a problem - where is the issue with this? I would never roll my eyes at him because I am not an ignorant twat.

AutumnMadness Mon 25-Mar-13 19:41:09

countrykitten, yes, I know, I AM an ignorant twat for refusing to spend nearly every evening of my life empathising with yet another (read "same") disaster that happened to my DH at work. Any woman who refuses to perform pointless emotional work and wipe men's snot like they were toddlers is of course an ignorant twat.

I am truly amazed what people here read into my words. Where did I say that I was unsupportive or unwilling to listen when it actually came to real problems? I am a supportive wife, not a mother to my husband.

BoneyBackJefferson, I have a bit of a theory why men may not be as happy as women in the workplace (at least in mine) - While women generally support each other, build social networks/capital, and see each other as collaborators, men are too busy competing and regarding each other with suspicion.

ATouchOfStuffing Mon 25-Mar-13 19:48:29

Simple solution - don't have a man in the house grin
Works for us!

countrykitten Mon 25-Mar-13 19:58:19

AutumnMadness I do hope that you never need emotional support from your husband. Ah - but if he behaved like you do when he wants to speak about a problem i am guessing you would be on here moaning about him and getting everyone to say LTB.

BoneyBackJefferson Mon 25-Mar-13 20:08:28

"AutumnMadness"

In this case it wasn't the job as such, it was that people who wanted to have a go at someone would go to the male counterstaff, even to the extent of letting other people go first.

My point (although badly made) is that the same job often don't have the same issues.
The male staff got the agressive people, the female staff got sexist remarks.

exoticfruits Mon 25-Mar-13 20:22:18

Rolling your eyes is what the child does with an adult. I would stop doing it and tackle the real problem.

AutumnMadness Mon 25-Mar-13 20:38:12

BoneyBackJefferson, I know what you mean about agressive customers. But it's not totally our situation as, erm, in our line of work we've got exactly the same customers and they are with us for a long term. I don't really want to give out what our profession is, otherwise I would have provided more detail. I do, however, get a definite sense that men and women in our workplace (I don't want to generalise, haven't got enough evidence) may experience the same workplace in different ways and manage workplace relationships in different ways. I can see how it is more challenging for my DH to navigate it. And I am willing to talk about it, just not every bloody night. I also would like to talk about in a constructive and not "just bitching" way, ifywim. I like to analyse, not bitch.

exoticfruits, what is this "real problem" that I must tackle?

Anyway, the purpose of this thread is not to discuss my personal problems, but to talk about emotional work that is expected of women by society. The situation that I described is just a small example of such emotional work.

countrykitten Mon 25-Mar-13 20:47:08

And I disagree with your point re emotional work expected by society. It is not something that I have ever encountered - ever.

exoticfruits Mon 25-Mar-13 21:16:24

The problem is listening to the moans which you think are just 'everyday life' - get him to stop - by communicating.

exoticfruits Mon 25-Mar-13 21:18:07

It isn't the sort of emotional 'work' I would do. Sounds as if he needs to do something constructive and change the job.

scottishmummy Mon 25-Mar-13 21:44:34

Autumn do you like your dh,your posts about him drip contempt
There seems to be a resentment you master on,whilst he bitches
Eyerolling isn't a text book couples empathy technique

exoticfruits Mon 25-Mar-13 21:48:55

Either it is just a habit that he does without thinking and he generally likes the job or he doesn't like the job. By sitting down and discussing it you would find out, and if it is the second you could discuss where to go next. If it is merely habit it can be changed.

AutumnMadness Mon 25-Mar-13 22:58:39

scottishmummy, you are making some massive assumptions about people you know nothing about.

Also, this is a quote from your earlier post: "And some women skivvy about like blue arsed flies,then moan so hard done to Ok,so stop buying your dp pants,if there a party due do let dp buy and wrap a present Some of the posts of long lists of inane tasks on mn, read and think no sympathy you're got busy bum". Here you are criticising women for performing the emotional work and excluding the men from it. However, when faced with a woman who openly refused to perform pointless emotional work (i.e. me) you criticise her for not being caring enough. To me, this is a classic attempt (perhaps not conscious, but rather driven by general culture) to shut women up and keep them in their place - they just can't do anything right. Ever.

countrykitten, I have never been to Australia, but I am pretty sure it is down there somewhere.

exoticfruits, thank you, I really feel you mean well, but, really, trust me, I have done and do so much talking, I could qualify as a shrink. There comes a point when talking is a bit like feeding a troll, and eye-rolling actually works best as it diffuses the situation and makes DH realise that he is talking a load of bollocks.

And again, please note that the example I brought to this discussion is a small one. The amount of emotional work that I perform with my DH is tiny-tiny peanuts in comparison with what many women do (ASDA Christmas advert). Definitely with what my mother and grandmother had to perform.

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 07:29:17

"And I disagree with your point re emotional work expected by society. It is not something that I have ever encountered - ever."

Asda Christmas advert, anyone?

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 07:29:38

Oops- cross post!

merrymouse Tue 26-Mar-13 07:50:36

Completely agree.

Although its possible to argue that this doesn't occur in your family, I think it's far fetched to argue that this isn't a cultural expectation.

Absolutely re: Xmas ads.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 09:07:21

But some women just like doing Christmas! Threads start here in August with every aspect. When I have said 'Good God-it is August!!' I have been told to go away!
I can just imagine what would happen if the man came home with (the very odd MN phenomenon) the 'Christmas pyjamas' and said 'you don't need to think about it-it is done'! And yet I bet the mother doesn't expect to involve him. There would be hell to pay-they would be bound to be wrong and he would have taken away her 'pleasure'. Likewise if he took a lot of the other things upon himself.
Personally I would be thrilled-but I am not 'all' women-there is no such thing as 'all' women.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 09:11:12

The amount of emotional work that I perform with my DH is tiny-tiny peanuts in comparison with what many women do (ASDA Christmas advert). Definitely with what my mother and grandmother had to perform.

Maybe this is the mistake. My mother and grandmother didn't perform any and so I don't see why I would. DCs do what you do -not what you say you should do. I can't imagine why seeker thinks her perfectly intelligent DD, with seeker as a mother, would start doing it-or why she then has to patronisingly think that the rest of are getting it 'wrong'.
Live your life without 'rolling your eyes' at your DP and the children will follow your example.

Bonsoir Tue 26-Mar-13 09:11:22

Christmas is a consumer-fest designed to encourage women to spend wastefully on the false premise that they are taking good care of their families by doing so. Men are dimwitted enough to fall for the con!

Bonsoir Tue 26-Mar-13 09:11:48

Are not dimwitted..

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 09:17:33

"Although its possible to argue that this doesn't occur in your family, I think it's far fetched to argue that this isn't a cultural expectation."

This. Why do people always say "well, I don,t do this- therefore my experience must be the norm?"

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 09:29:06

I find it very interesting that some women are so very unwilling to see any gender inequality. Why is that exactly? It can't be ignorance- I'm talking educated, thinking women. So there must be some other reason. For the Margaret Thatchers of the world, it was "well, I made it, so if you don't it's your own fault" Maybe for some it's not waiting to rock the boat. Some may genuinely think, in the face of the evidence, that all the feminist battles have been won. There might be a few who like the inequality, and don't want to upset men. Some must see it, but haven't got the energy for the fight. It's interesting- but depressing. Hard fought for ground can so easily lost......

Owllady Tue 26-Mar-13 09:32:22

I find it frightening when I see how my nephew is treated tbh. He is at uni several hundred miles away and his Dad (not Mum!) is driving down, stripping his bed, making him a fresh one, taking his clothes to the launderette for him
driving him home if need be
driving him back
generally treating him like a 20 yr old baby

Then they all go on about how clever he is, arf!

But honestly with boys being brought up like that, lets hope he stays single

Owllady Tue 26-Mar-13 09:34:54

and my MIL goes on about what he eats and then says 'but there are two girls there and they cook all the meals, the boys just give them the money' and I wonder what has changed. I would never have dreamt of cooking dinner for my male uni mates every night and that being an expectation of me. Weirdly her son has never expected it it either, but my MIL is one of these 'I don't know why he left her, she always kept a tidy house' types. i think she most probably despairs at me

inde Tue 26-Mar-13 09:46:33

Why do people always say "well, I don,t do this- therefore my experience must be the norm

That seems to be happening on both sides of the argument though, doesn't it Seeker? You are saying what happens in some marriages and talking about what you have read in the relationship forum.
I am a placid person married to a very emotional woman. She can be hard work sometimes. I am often treading on eggshells with her. As it happens I love her to bits and her bad points are far outweighed by her good points. I would agree though that there are a lot of women (and some men) in unhealthy relationships. I applaud the encouragement that women on these forums give to other women not to put up with damaging relationships. To make out that this is the norm doesn't correspond with my experience. Not in my relationship or of those around me.

inde Tue 26-Mar-13 10:01:23

Correction Seeker. You are not talking about what is happening in the relationship forum but there is a lot of assumptions being made that because it happens in some relationships then it is the norm.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 10:26:47

Did no one read the links given by posters earlier?

here

and here

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 10:53:25

Since has this become this a thread about domestic violence?

Or about what happens on relationship threads?

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 10:57:33

What I am talking about is the perception in the media, in the world at large as well as on here, that women are expected to be the appeasers and peace keepers. That women traditionally and continuingly take on themselves add are apportioned a disproportionally large %age of the blame for relationship breakdown, for issues with children.....I find it extraordinary that anyone would question that this is true.

inde Tue 26-Mar-13 11:09:40

I think a lot of it comes down to the personality of those involved. There are a lot of put upon wives out their. There are also a lot of men who are actually quite scared of upsetting their wives and act accordingly. In a healthy marriage like mine we both try our best to keep each other happy. Neither of us is perfect. I've learnt though what upsets my wife and do my best to shield her from the things that do.

AutumnMadness Tue 26-Mar-13 11:29:29

inde, I hear what you are saying. And I completely agree with you that there are a lot of men out there treading on eggshells around their volatile and temperamental and downright explosive wives. I also agree with some posters here that domestic violence against men is a hidden issue in our society that certainly deserves attention.

However, by and large, the "emotional work" that we are talking about there is the province of women. The media presents women as having the primary responsibility for the emotional well-being of family members - for the dinners around the table in the evening, for holidays, for listening to children, for organising children's activities, for managing the social life of the family, for keeping GP appointments. Women's magazines are full of articles on cookery, holiday-organising, and "how to make him happy in bed." Our civilization is yet to see men overtaking women in the readership of "House Beautiful." We are yet to see a Christmas advert where it is the man and not the woman who is running around like the energiser bunny while his wife asks "what's for dinner?" I just compared the online editions of the Cosmopolitan and Maxim magazines. Both have relationship sections. The former has a section titled "Love and Sex" and the latter "Girls". So a women's magazine presents men as objects of love, of emotional engagement, while a men's magazine presents women as just objects (cue the recent publicised interview with an editor of a men's magazine openly admitting that women in his publications are "decorative"). And don't even start me on the countless men's blogs about how South-East Asian women are soooo much better than European ones as they are much more loyal, submissive, uncritical, and supportive. I am yet to see a female blog praising the ego-stroking skills of mail-order grooms from Vietnam.

So yes, there is physical, emotional and even financial domestic violence against men. But it does not mean that we should stop discussing women. Male and female identities are constructed very differently in our society, so it is worth talking about this difference.

I also highly recommend that you read "Wifework".

AutumnMadness Tue 26-Mar-13 11:35:33

And then of course there is male-on-female rape (again, I am not arguing that men are never raped). This is the ultimate female responsibility for men's emotions. Despite of all the progressive talk about it, so many publications still present rape as the woman's fault. She is the one who dressed too provocatively, she is the one who should not have been outside late at night, she is the one who should not have been drunk, should not have tempted. She is the one who did not manage the man's emotions right.

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 11:39:52

Oh, autumn- I wish I could express it half as cogently as you do- thank you!

AutumnMadness Tue 26-Mar-13 11:48:32

seeker, I am glad to be useful. Thank you for starting this thread.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 11:54:50

Autumn I fund your long socialsciencetastic posts irascible and dismissive to anyone not in agreement
Mn is a discursive forum we all observe,opine based on own subjective opinion,posts read,and experience
You dont know every woman but you too opine about emotional work if folk you never met

inde Tue 26-Mar-13 11:58:26

And don't even start me on the countless men's blogs about how South-East Asian women are soooo much better than European ones as they are much more loyal, submissive, uncritical, and supportive. I am yet to see a female blog praising the ego-stroking skills of mail-order grooms from Vietnam.

I agree. There is far too much misogyny on the internet and elsewhere. I agree as well that what women should be talking about is improving their lot and the lives of other women. I just think that it's not all a case of women are the givers and men are the takers.
Where I differ from most feminists is that I think that men and women's brains are different and we will probably never have a society where men do as much of the childcare etc. as women. That shouldn't excuse men from doing their fair share though. I'm not talking about individual relationships here but society in general. What I would like to see is a society where women have the same (or more) respect than men. I don't think they have at the moment.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 11:59:51

Autumn you chose to discuss the gripes of your relationship with dh,
his so called bitching.your eye rolling.and the emotional work you feel you endure
I can legitimately comment.what do you want a stiff upper lip,English refrain so you're not doing emotion keeping

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 12:04:30

Why on earth do people resort to the ad hominem? So pointless and unproductive.

AutumnMadness Tue 26-Mar-13 12:16:17

scottishmummy, I don't think we can manage a conversation. I guess you can equate disagreement with dismissal. Yes, I dismiss your opinions because I disagree with them. However, I provide constructive explanations every time. You chose to ignore these explanations, such as my explicit recognition above of the diversity of individual family situations (e.g. replies to inde). Thank you for your very generous permission to not do emotional work. But I do not require it.

inde, I share your pessimism about equality, definitely in the short term. And discussions about biological differences is a whole large bag of very unhappy cats. My personal very subjective and not well-referenced position is that it is pretty much impossible to separate biology from social conditioning when it comes to people. If you are interested, this book is absolutely fantastic: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delusions-Gender-Science-Behind-Differences/dp/1848312202.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 12:20:22

This is no ad hominen, there are vigorous posts which is good
So op how do you keep men sweet?why do you presume other women also keep men sweet?
What do you want to see done about keeping men sweet?

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 12:24:26

RTT.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 12:24:40

Autumn,you may not like content of my posts,that's your prerogative
We shall both contribute,I expect maybe not concur,there's room for divergence
I think propensity for emotional work isn't necessarily gender,I think it's personality,experience

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 12:27:01

So a you saying unequivocally that the is absolutely societal expectation for women to be the ones to do the emotional work in a relationship? That no women has ever been held responsible for make behaviour?

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 12:27:26

Male behaviour, that should read.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 12:31:10

Rtt

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 12:35:28

I have. I don't think you have.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 12:39:10

Seeker you've constructed your own value laden summary and question to me
Maybe to have ta-da moment to trot out some links and validation of your question
I think individually there are gender and personality differences.you may consider you've kept men sweet,and using the global we you assume others do too

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 13:06:29

Ad hominem again!

A straight answer would be good!

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 13:17:19

More ad nauseaum than ad hominen
You've constructed a subjective laden question,waiting to ta-dah with links/ stats
You're not seeking my opinion you're looking to validate what you already think

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 13:21:23

No. You have stated several times eliptically that you think that I am wrong- that there is no societal expectation of women to do this work. I just want to be sure I understand you- particularly as I find your posting style a little difficult. I have no interest at all in scoring points, or whatever motive you are ascribing to me.

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 13:22:52

And there is nothing value laden in the question - "in your opinion is there a societal expectation on women to do the majority of the emotional work in a relationship?"

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 13:50:34

Since has this become this a thread about domestic violence?

Or about what happens on relationship threads?

Less than 2 hours after it started, after only about 50 posts in. It has however changed to the fact that women tend to 'do' Christmas-ignoring the fact that many of them love doing it. I don't start in August but I do love doing Christmas-especially the artistic side. I arranged playdates (horrible word), cooked the meal etc because I was there-how DH was supposed to manage it when he was out 7am to 7.15.pm I don't know -(and I would have hated to be out those hours). When I was teaching full time he was the one that took time off to do orthodontist appointments because I couldn't. Parenthood is a partnership-if you don't like the way you are doing it then sort it out with DP.

Children will do what you do. The eye rolling isn't an equal adult type thing-it is the sort of thing that I do when I have no control e.g. a member of the public being irritating. I have decided that even then I shouldn't be so cowardly. A good example was a branch of a well known coffee shop last week. I was 2 people behind a man who got the wrong order-where upon he was extremely rude to the young person serving. The woman behind me and I rolled our eyes. However the woman in front said to him 'there is no need to be quite so rude'-he blustered and insisted he wasn't rude 'she just calmly pointed out that he was-he had been apologised to and the mistake had been corrected and his response was just unpleasant.

We should all do it -all the time.

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 13:55:13

Exotic do you think that you might be extrapolation from your experience to the generality just a bit? Can I ask you the same question I have signally failed to get scottishmummy to answer- do you believe that there is no societal expectation for women to do more of the emotional work, the smoothing and appeasing than men? Do you genuinely think that women are never expected to take responsibility for men's behaviour and feelings?

Bonsoir Tue 26-Mar-13 13:58:17

Of course there is Seeker!!!!

Bonsoir Tue 26-Mar-13 14:02:14

I genuinely don't think women take any more responsibility for men's feelings than men take for women's feelings. Men are often irritated by women and yet say nothing or appease them, just as women do for men.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 14:02:47

Yes-but you really don't have to do it!! Do you think that your DD will do it seeker-and if so why?

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 14:02:53

You're not seeking pov or asking question,you're making big proclamation
You've constructed an are you're tell me...in order to pile into pro Wylie own point
It's quite a lame obvious tactic.reframe a question and summation to suit yourself to prove your own point

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 14:04:01

Men generally don't understand women-I am constantly having to say 'this is what women do' when they think me odd.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 14:05:12

Are you expecting your DD to appease future partners and your DS to have to be appeased -and if so why?

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 14:14:26

I live with a man who's not emotionally incontinent,doesn't need me to do his emotion keeping
We don't keep each other sweet,we negotiate like adults.not revert to stereotypical roles
I don't Exoect my dc to keep people sweet.I hope they'll be balanced,sensitive adults

ChestyLeRoux Tue 26-Mar-13 14:19:23

I know a few couples who live like this, but its usually because the woman is very weak and a doormat type, often with not many opinions. I wouldnt say its the norm in this day and age. I do agree with the op in that they shut stop doing it as they will fuck up their kids, and they will end up doing the same and be treated like shit.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 14:38:48

I can't say I know any who live like that-because I am older, and know older people, they either sorted it to suit or got divorced.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 14:39:47

Maybe they put up with it when younger, but you wouldn't want to do it for ever-you only get one life.

ChestyLeRoux Tue 26-Mar-13 14:46:44

I dont know any married people that live like it just ones who are living with a boyfriend. I have talked about it with my mum and she always says some women are just very weak. I do think its true as why else would you let someone walk all over you for not much in return?

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 15:31:17

I was heartened that at the start of this thread had lots of perfectly normal women who hadn't a clue what it meant. It is 21st Century -you do not need a partner or a meal ticket!

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 16:39:19

If you're unhappy doing wifework or emotion-work you need to stop facilitating it
You can moderate your own behaviour,actions.so if youre unhappy initiate change
We all act our roles,and have habituation we re-enact.if youre happy with them,great.if not change.rather than fatalistically accept your children will be folk who are destined to be "keeping men sweet"

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 17:08:39

Do people not understand the concept of discussing a generality? Of course not every relationship is like this. Of course nobody thinks like this. But the way society perceives women in general is very different from the way many of us behave in our personal lives.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 17:15:43

And individually our behaviours don't need to conform to stereotypical roles.we have choices
Our behaviours,the visible actions we make can demonstrate our values/ethos
I value work,I want to demonstrate work ethic to my dc.I want to demonstrate mum works and contributes to the family

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 17:49:34

We all make choices. The young women that I know would laugh at the idea they were supposed to be 'emotion keepers'-I wouldn't even mention it to my elderly mother-she would say 'don't be so wet!'
If you are not doing it with your DD I think it is very patronising to tell the rest of us to 'stop doing it' -when we didn't in the first place.
You could at least rephrase the whole thing differently from OP.

AutumnMadness Tue 26-Mar-13 18:12:59

Of course we all make choices as individuals, even though we can debate the degree to which these choices are governed by social conditioning and expectations. That is the whole point of this thread - to discuss these choices. What they are, how we make them and why. Or are we only allowed to do this in private? I.e. at home, the traditional female place, and not in the public sphere.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 19:02:17

Mn is a public forum it's hardly private wee chat amongst pals.it visible Internet
And I keep no man sweet, I do negotiate and expect dialogue mutually beneficial
Nor do I need to emotion keep(ghastly wimmin are godesses expression)

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 19:03:14

It needs good education for all girls. The ones likely to be appeasers are the ones who are insecure and who want someone to love them.
A girl who has gone onto further education and held down a career for several years is unlikely to be busy 'appeasing' partners. The mistake is to settle down too early. If you are older you have been around enough to know what you want. Since the cost of university education is so high, and the cost of living is so high, they can't settle down very young.
I made my choices and I resent people saying that I can't stay at home and be a mother. I was 38yrs when I was pregnant-I had been working since some of the young mums were toddlers-I had been there -had the career and wanted to be at home. I like knitting, gardening, cooking, sewing, small children-among other of my varied interests. I couldn't care less about expectations or social conditioning-I like it. Lots of women do. Suddenly we are all supposed to feel that it is inferior to traditional male occupations.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 19:05:02

A perfectly sane, intelligent woman of 41yrs with a baby and toddler can choose to be at home with them and not be the 'emotional keeper' or 'a appeaser of males'.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 19:06:36

The only ones that I know who were a bit 'wet' married young-and they divorced -very often young too.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 19:12:28

Indeed we have choices,it not inevitable women has to keep her man sweet
fatalistic to assume women accept the keep men sweet role.don't include me in it
but if women do keep men sweet,they are facilitating it too.so need to change behaviour too

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 19:17:50

And there are still many, many men who keep their wives sweet.
Anyone who does it is facilitating their behaviour.
e.g. a friend of my mothers had parents who gave her her own way if she threw a tantrum-she had over 50 years of her DH doing the same and when she was eventually elderly and widowed and went into a care home she found it hard-for the first time ever people were not 'keeping her sweet'-needless to say she had a poor relationship with her own DD who hated growing up in a household where her mother had to be 'appeased'.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 19:24:42

Essentially any keeping sweet(male or female) is dysfunctional
Like all stamp feetie brides who whine,demand for perfect wedding and are kept sweet
it's to do with roles,personality,experience whether or not we sweeten up folk

countrykitten Tue 26-Mar-13 20:53:53

Still catching up with reading posts but how people can say that an Asda Xmas ad is indicative of real life is beyond me! Um I have never seen the ad but I do know that tv is not real life.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 20:56:12

Real Life would be very strange if it was like the ads! I know that we teach DCs about them-I didn't realise that we had to educate the parents.

Catmint Tue 26-Mar-13 21:06:43

I believe that keeping sweet is dysfunctional.

But I also believe that it is the societal norm that women are more often expected to do this than men are.

Thankfully not all women are expected to.

But many are.

It is valid to be angry about this.

I really don't understand why some people deny it happens. Isn't it more accurate to say it does not happen to you?

I am a bit mindfucked by the lack of empathy on this thread.

ChestyLeRoux Tue 26-Mar-13 21:18:13

I dont think getting together or married young has anything to do with it. I think if a womans a bit wet then it can be any age. I worked with a 50 year old she used to finish at 6.30 and rapidly walk home to get her dps dinner on the table as he wouldnt bother feeding their child even though he finished at 4.30 hmm Even the 17 year old staff members thought it was bonkers.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 21:18:39

Headfucked,emotion keepers it's a pot pourri of earnest cliches
If someone else frets about keeping her man sweet thats her look out,her behaviour
Am I fraught about it.not not really.does the empathy cup low over?no.why should it

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 21:24:13

Of course you can be wet at any age but older ones have generally had enough.
The 50yr old old is letting her DH get away with it-she needed to tell him that she was going out after school-she would be back after bedtime and he would have to get the dinner. If she was 50 then her DC could have cooked the meal.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 21:25:54

There are a lot of women who wouldn't let a ten year old get on with it-they won't even let them make a hot drink and toast!!

Catmint Tue 26-Mar-13 21:30:01

If you don't give a shit, why post though?

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 21:32:06

I find it extraordinary that intelligent, engaged, aware women can deny that this happens. And to be so very incensed at the thought that it might.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 21:34:39

Shall I explain premise of mn to you?strangers duscuss,dont necessarily agree
Here's bit you're at..lots of mindfuckin and people apparently not giving a shit.
you're somewhat irked,that I am not empathic about the emotion keepers

Catmint Tue 26-Mar-13 21:38:20

SM, I think you are intentionally disrespectful. I won't play.

Catmint Tue 26-Mar-13 21:40:22

seeker - I agree.
I am astounded, too.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 21:41:06

Of course it happens but it has no need to happen. I don't think that for a minute that you expect your DD to be like this seeker, and you seem to assume the rest of us need to be told what to do!
I don't know all these 'emotional keepers' -people I know married men who were on the same wave length and best friends-why on earth women should become doormats as soon as they move in with a man beats me!
I can only think that many women like to be in charge and this gives them control. Any 6 yr old boy without SN can get changed by himself after swimming-but start threads on here and the mother says they can't! (they would get changed if I had them!) -that is where you need to start-young.
All children are quite capable if given the chance. If they see their mother isn't going to do it all for them, or everything for the father then that is what they copy.

ChestyLeRoux Tue 26-Mar-13 21:41:48

Her dc was only 8 as she was an older mum, but yeah she wouldnt say that to him as she used to stay at home so when she started work he just refused to help.

flippinada Tue 26-Mar-13 21:42:38

I get you seeker.

I think there's some deliberate misunderstanding going on here, plus it's a primo opportunity for a bit of feminist bashing.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 21:43:53

Lol,intentionally disrespectful when you chatise others for not giving a shit
Now that was hardly a respectful way to dismiss other posts
You genuinely seem to not grasp mn.we all post,Expect we won't all concur.it's fun

Catmint Tue 26-Mar-13 21:48:50

I asked a genuine question. I don't find lack of respect fun.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 21:49:49

I can't see why my grandmother, born in 1890, a farm labourer's daughter managed to be equal-refused to be an 'emotion keeper' , appeaser (not that anyone asked her to be) and yet a woman living in 2013, with far more education can't do it.

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 21:54:41

How v contradictory you're rude and exasperated to me but demand respect
I never actually said i dont I've a shit,that's your summation.
You seem able t dish it out but get all I want respek when you no likey a pov

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 21:56:11

Emotion keeper is ghastly term,sounds like a self help term for goddesses and unicorns

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 22:10:32

Maybe people are protesting a little bit too much?

scottishmummy Tue 26-Mar-13 22:12:50

Ach dont be harsh catmint entitled to her opinion,she clearly feels "mindfucked"

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 22:17:30

I think that unfortunately it is the sort of thread that brings out the worst in me and I am unable to have sane debate! Time to stay off MN for a while.
I can't contemplate being with a man where you are expected to do this, I wasn't brought up that way, my friends and family don't do it and I just think that a woman is 'wet' if she lets herself be put in that position - especially if she is educated. You do not need a partner- better to do without than have a useless one!

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 22:20:48

Sorry - not very clear - it is me that can't have a sane debate- it goads me into making the sort of statement that doesn't stand a second reading. Therefore best to steer clear and avoid the irritation.

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 22:24:43

So basically, any woman who isn't as assertive as you are, and who isn't as lucky/careful in her choice of partner is a moron who deserves everything she gets. And it's all her own fault- nothing to do with the the way women generally ( see that word, everyone? It means "not just you") are perceived and expected to behave by society.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 22:31:04

In a nutshell - yes! I can't see why society expects you to do it. I am fairly conventional - I don't make any waves - I would say I am normal - no one thinks me odd for not living my life as expected by Asda adverts - most women are far braver than me.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 22:37:34

So why do they do it? Just because society ( as depicted by adverts) expects it?
Genuine question.

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 22:48:37

Looking back, all the perfectly normal, sensible women came on at the start, posted once, to say they didn't know what OP meant and disappeared - that is what I should have done! Rather belatedly I will disappear too- so don't worry about answering the question.

seeker Tue 26-Mar-13 23:02:00

All the perfectly normal, sensible women- who don't give a flying fuck about how other women less fortunate than themselves live. "I'm all right, Jill"

All the perfectly normal, sensible women who said they didn't understand the original post- because that's not what their live are like. Or that's not how they tell themselves their live are.

One thought for you to go to bed with. Since the famous Christmas advertisement has been mentioned. So you really think that Asda paid an andertising agency megabucks to come up with q campaign that bore absolutely no resemblance to the live of their customers?

exoticfruits Tue 26-Mar-13 23:05:59

They certainly came up with one that irritated the customers- I doubt they will repeat it next year.
Are you actually doing anything for the less fortunate women? I am involved in 2things, both of which are more practical than starting a discussion like this.

seeker Wed 27-Mar-13 06:28:03

<gives up>

scottishmummy Wed 27-Mar-13 11:22:54

Could you be any more bumptious seeker.good job you hear to berate other women
I see you consign pov no likey to being fuck you types.presumably you are goddess giver?
Is that your subjective stance,everyone who disagrees with you doesn't give flying fuck?

Here the thing I won't be berated by a man,and I won't be berated by a woman simply for having a different online opinion

essentially this boils down to you having a huff that posters had temerity to disagree and contend your posts.despite this being premise of a discussion forum

You could have robustly argued your pov,and taken a pragmatic view unlikely we all agree but accept we all defend our individual pov

BUT you chose to go down the anyone disagreeing,not wholly embracing your pov is selfish and doesn't give a flying fuck. however, you have chosen to inflate your own pov(as in at least you give a flying fuck) and belittle any other divergent pov

seeker Wed 27-Mar-13 11:55:04

grin at the idea of scottishmummy accusing someone of belittling other people's points of view!

scottishmummy Wed 27-Mar-13 12:24:51

Seeker,deflect it by talking about me.rather than addressypur inability to jeep calm Heid
Certainly I will vociferously argue my pov,this thread and others.that's the point
What I won't do is swear,get harrumphy and accuse others of not giving a flying fuck.unlike you

seeker Wed 27-Mar-13 13:43:38

Just as you deflected the ^general ^discussion by focussing on me. Hey ho. Just carry on with the aggression and personal abuse. At least you never swear. And that's the important thing. And, as your posts are frequently barely comprehensible it doesn't make much difference anyway.

Catmint Wed 27-Mar-13 19:12:54

Seeker. I thought it was an interesting question that I had not really considered before. Thanks for asking it. smile

Lovecat Wed 27-Mar-13 19:57:37

Having read all 15 pages I would like to thank Seeker for starting this thread.

And I am utterly gobsmacked at the lack of empathy from others on this thread - it's never happened to me so therefore it's not a real thing? Really?

I grew up in a family where my mother pussyfooted around my abusive father and managed his moods - it made me determined never to do so and has probably made me slightly arsey-er than I might otherwise have been - even now in her late 70's she makes excuses for male behaviour that she would wholeheartedly condemn should a woman do it. Just because I didn't allow it to become a pattern I followed it doesn't mean it isn't still happening and that other women are finding themselves in such situations.

Anyone who says there are no threads on MN where the OP gets told she should try harder/be nicer/be less 'selfish' toward her partner is not reading many of the same threads that I am... (note to self: spend less time on MN)

Like Custy, my DH sends his own family's cards/gifts etc - but if they don't get there on time/at all it's me that gets the blame from his family. Women are 'supposed' to do that sort of stuff, apparently hmm. I haven't read Wifework but a lot of what's being talked about wrt it sounds horribly familiar....

flippinada Wed 27-Mar-13 20:39:29

Lovecat great post.

The lack of empathy and insight from some posters has really shocked me too, but I couldn't verbalise it in such an articulate way so thank you for that.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 27-Mar-13 20:53:21

So Lovecat's post about a woman being abused was a great post.

Yet those posted about men in the same situation are met with "since when did this become about abuse"

flippinada Wed 27-Mar-13 21:12:37

I don't see how you could possibly infer that from what I said.

On the assumption that you're not just trying to pick a fight, compassion and empathy are not limited commodities and just because you feel them for one group does not mean you've used then up and don't feel them for another group.

If on the other hand you're just being arsey about something which I haven't actually said and don't think anyway...well I just can't be bothered.

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 27-Mar-13 22:09:45

it was said by seeker earlier in the thread.

I apologise for not making that clear.

seeker Wed 27-Mar-13 22:15:26

I think I did say "since when was this thread about domestic violence"or something like that, not because the post concerned was about violence towards men but because I wasn't even thinking about domestic violence when started the thread -as I made clear.

I am well aware that men suffer domestic violence.

scottishmummy Wed 27-Mar-13 22:22:48

Individually we are responsible for our behavior and if that includes being put upon intentionally or unintentionally id still Expect that one moderate behaviour and reflect upon own actions to progress to better choices. If a person is an emotion keeper,and unhappy keeping men sweet,they need to look how they can change that situation.this will benefit them,and stop facilitation of infantaksing others.and keeping other people sweet

If someone unhappy with their lot,the change,the impetus needs to come from that person,with adequate external support,to change

Fatalistically accepting women keep men sweet,and their daughters will continue to do so in 30yr is fatalistic rot.It assumes women cannot change their lot in 30yr time.I don't accept this

TheRealFellatio Thu 28-Mar-13 03:12:17

Blimey SM no haiku? confused

I have been momentarily discombobulated. grin

I actually did a double take at the poster name, and went 'whaaa?'

mathanxiety Thu 28-Mar-13 04:10:12

'In this case it wasn't the job as such, it was that people who wanted to have a go at someone would go to the male counterstaff, even to the extent of letting other people go first.'
[BoneyBackJerfferson]

They went to the male counter staff because they assumed they were senior to the women and would have authority to deal with their ishoos, which were too special to be dealt with by a mere lowly member of the counter staff rank and file which is what a lot of aggressive people with ishoos think all female customer interface employees are.

Not because they enjoyed venting their rage at men, and not because they were being polite to the women.

Have seen female managers in hotels treated with incredulity when they said there was no senior manager higher than them and what could they do for Diddums and his pwoblem. Especially the case where the manager was both female and black, an unbelievable phenomenon for a lot of aggressive guests.

mathanxiety Thu 28-Mar-13 04:23:35

I had a most satisfying conversation with exMIL a few years ago.
She tried to tell me that exH (her son) had had a fling and a porn fixation because I was an inadequate wife. If I had been a better wife all would be well and he would never have been tempted. Blah blah blah. I told her about the gay porn he preferred and she almost had a heart attack right there in my kitchen. Bitch.

exH grew up in a home where it was the woman's job to pour oil on troubled waters. I don't know the full extent of the compromises she made with her conscience over her lifetime to keep on enjoying the very comfortable lifestyle she had as the wife of a successful and very well off surgeon, but I know she sent her own sister packing when she appeared on her doorstep one day crying that her H had hit her and asking for help, and I know she never made a peep when exFIL broke the leg of one of the children when spanking her.

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 28-Mar-13 06:40:20

mathanxiety

"They went to the male counter staff because they assumed they were senior to the women and would have authority to deal with their ishoos, which were too special to be dealt with by a mere lowly member of the counter staff rank and file which is what a lot of aggressive people with ishoos think all female customer interface employees are"

That is an interesting assumption.

countrykitten Thu 28-Mar-13 08:10:34

mathanxiety that is a very stupid assumption projecting your own prejudices. What a dreadful way to view the world.

But your post did make me laugh though - was this black, female manager also disabled....? Don't believe a word of it.

TeWiSavesTheDay Thu 28-Mar-13 08:29:36

I agree with you seeker.

I have a great relationship with my husband (who is not a Wanker) but when he hasn't posted a birthday card to his mum on time, I do get the twitch to fix it because that's what society expects.

I have friends whose husbands ARE wankers (imo) but don't leave because they feel like it's their fault.

I do wonder if those why deny our society is like this are deaf and blind but Ho hum, enjoy your bubble...

Bonsoir Thu 28-Mar-13 08:42:36

when he hasn't posted a birthday card to his mum on time, I do get the twitch to fix it because that's what society expects.

"Society" doesn't expect anything of the sort. You and only you are the one feeling responsible for your husband's failings. Stop it!