To feel sad that this could be the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom?

(254 Posts)
SamuelWestsMistress Thu 21-Mar-13 19:40:29

I feel so sad this evening after hearing the news for the date for the referendum. I am really dreading the whole countdown to voting day because I really fear that the SNP will get their way. What would be really sad is if its a close count. I just desperately hope living here won't feel too different.

I love having a British identity despite being born in Scotland and will be so sad and angry if its taken away.

AIBU to be feeling rather worried and actually afraid by the entire thing? I really don't like the SNP. (Don't like the coalition it her, but I think they've managed to push things to come to this!)

If that's what people vote for that's what they vote for. If I was still in Scotland I think I'd vote against (much to my parents' horror) but so be it...

cozietoesie Thu 21-Mar-13 19:54:52

Look at the figures. I wouldn't lose sleep over it if I were you.

forgetmenots Thu 21-Mar-13 19:59:29

I don't think it means loss of identity either way, the queen will still be head of state and the countries have so much in common. The kingdoms of scotland and england were united for over a hundred years before the parliaments. Political independence will stop a lot of the carping (from both sides!) IMO, so I will be voting yes. Would prefer to be happy neighbours than unhappy flatmates.

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 20:01:37

Don't worry I strongly suspect it will be a no vote. And if not, you'll see me headed for the border with my suitcases...

I'll probably meet you there RhondaJean!

MissAnnersley Thu 21-Mar-13 20:11:43

I will be voting yes.

I don't know how it will go and I think the addition of 16 and 17 year olds voting will make things interesting.

At the moment it looks like you don't have much to worry about though.

HillBilly76 Thu 21-Mar-13 20:12:36

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SamuelWestsMistress Thu 21-Mar-13 20:13:11

Perhaps it's mainly being based in a major SNP stronghold that adds to my feelings then! I really hope we remain united though.

MissAnnersley Thu 21-Mar-13 20:15:46

Where I am is strongly SNP too which suits me. It will certainly be an interesting 18 months.
I love it when Labour and the SNP scrap. grin

Softlysoftly Thu 21-Mar-13 20:17:06

I don't think past history of being apart is a great example we spent much of that time killing each other!

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:17:51

they wont win DD thinks alex salmond looks like a toad and he is using the referendum so his toad race can take over, we have had a referendum before in the 70s , I loved the labour SNP fight tonight on reporting scotland,

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:18:59

Don't worry I strongly suspect it will be a no vote. And if not, you'll see me headed for the border with my suitcases...

im teeny tiny id fit in your suitcase take me with you I will switch the lights out when i leave

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 21-Mar-13 20:19:08

Haven't seen any polls yet that make me think it'll be a yes vote.
I haven't yet decided, but this government is tempting me to think that we couldn't be worse off than we are now.

MissAnnersley Thu 21-Mar-13 20:20:12

The prospect of not having another Tory government is very attractive, to say the least.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:21:22

The prospect of not having another Tory government is very attractive, to say the least.

when i think about it ^ ^ that could swing a yes vote, TBH i am undecided how I will vote I am not sure we could cope on our own

SofaKing Thu 21-Mar-13 20:23:50

Independence won't happen, too many people are against it.

I'm disappointed about this as I think the UK is in a dire situation and its getting worse. I'd love to be able to have a chance to escape the awful consequences austerity will bring in years to come, but to do that now I think I will have to move abroad sad.

The thing that really winds me up is that we are essentially being asked to vote on an ideological basis with no real information on what the settlement will look like. I know why it is the case but I don't think it's right.

MissAnnersley Thu 21-Mar-13 20:24:05

I remember so clearly the massive anger and frustration I felt when Thatcher was in power.

That memory is still fresh.

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 21-Mar-13 20:27:09

I have that anger and frustration now MissAnnersley.
I think the bedroom tax is the new poll tax, but people have just become so accepting.

HollyBerryBush Thu 21-Mar-13 20:27:56

I don't understand why the Scots live in England if it's so bad? Why don't they live and work and improve their homeland?

>sigh< we need another Thatcher to turn the country round

MissAnnersley Thu 21-Mar-13 20:29:12

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean Holly.

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 21-Mar-13 20:29:27

Same reason so many English live in Scotland I suppose, Holly.

You know we aren't actually one homogenous mass HollyBerryBush? Some Scots live in England just like some English live in Scotland!

acceptableinthe80s Thu 21-Mar-13 20:30:41

The thing that really winds me up is that we are essentially being asked to vote on an ideological basis with no real information

^^This. I need facts, figures, information before i can make that decision.
I got the leaflets through the door today, no information whatsoever, just propaganda.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:32:09

The thing that really winds me up is that we are essentially being asked to vote on an ideological basis with no real information on what the settlement will look like. I know why it is the case but I don't think it's right.

My husband said something along those lines earlier tonight he said we have had no information about 'how it will all work'

awaynboilyurheid Thu 21-Mar-13 20:32:50

Another one who is worried that people will vote to leave UK knew they would time it around some big events to encourage nationalism, just hope people don't vote for King Eck, we are stronger united than apart.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:33:09

*I remember so clearly the massive anger and frustration I felt when Thatcher was in power.

That memory is still fresh.*

So do I and it is going back to that imo

Manchesterhistorygirl Thu 21-Mar-13 20:33:23

What I find ludicrous is my Scottish Friend, still has her passport, but lives in Canada is flying "home" to vote yes!

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:34:48

I live in an area where we have a town called 'little England' maybe the English should go back there, what a stupid statementholly and thatcher ruined this country all off it ,

We're not going to get the answers either in reality. As I understand it they don't have the authority to negotiate the terms of a settlement. My DH was arguing with somebody on facebook earlier (in fact several of them!) who were stating we will be taking 8.4% of the debt, it's "already been decided" - unless I have missed something it's not exactly going to be a unilateral decision!

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:35:32

wont your friend need a scottish address though ?

determinedma Thu 21-Mar-13 20:38:58

I will be voting NO. There is still no hard evidence and facts as to how Scotland will support itself. Recipe for disaster. With me, dh, and two dds that's 4 NO votes. The irony is we are all English, but a SCottish friend living in England has no vote

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Mar-13 20:39:09

David Cameron et al are the strongest argument for the yes vote. They are playing right into the independence supporters hands. The Tories are hated up here, with passion and for good bloody reason. immaculate timing.

TheCrackFox Thu 21-Mar-13 20:39:12

I don't think the Canadian lady will be able to vote (might be wrong though).

I would like to know what percentage of the debt we will be given. A massive amount of detail is missing to this debate.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 21-Mar-13 20:39:37

Is your friend on tne electoral roll, Mancs?

willowstar Thu 21-Mar-13 20:41:27

I'm fae Aberdeen, wish I was still living up there so I could vote no.

MissAnnersley Thu 21-Mar-13 20:42:03

Absolutely MrsKeithRichards.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Mar-13 20:44:10

She can't just fly in and vote.

maddening Thu 21-Mar-13 20:44:27

I don't think it's the right time right now.

I hope we remain united - I love Scotland and hope to live there again in the future.

But right now with global economics as it is - even the cost of creating a fully functioning government - the transfer of power itself would cost a bomb and now there is not much spare cash - even changing the name of a department costs a fortune in rebranding. Whether it's a good reason not to break off I don't know.

SamuelWestsMistress Thu 21-Mar-13 20:46:36

I think this government are doing exactly what some of you have said and driving the undecided to a yes. I want them not be honest. Absolutely 100% honest about what an independent Scotland would mean. From things as trivial like no more BBC tv being broadcast to as major as not being part of Europe and what that would mean and everything in between.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:48:27

If im still undecided by next year I think it will be NO vote, there is no tory Mps in scotland that says it all really

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 20:52:14

Being British I would celebrate this. It seems to me that for a while now the Scottish have been stand alone when it suits them. I say go on then. You can't have it both ways.

My Mother is Scottish by the way.

It was one way for the Scottish concerning uni fees etc. and one for us. this doesn't work. do it yourselves now.

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 20:52:23

Did anyone see the countdown thingy on Reporting Scotland tonight?! Woo - the excitement! grin

HillBilly76 Thu 21-Mar-13 20:54:47

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mikey9 Thu 21-Mar-13 20:56:49

We are 1 part English and 3 parts Scottish in our family - and living in Scotland - but two votes for the adults and undecided.

Scotland for the last unpteen elections has returned a maximum of one MP for the ruling Tories (sorry - the Lib Dems just don't count anymore - at least they won't after the next election up here). It intrigues me that there isn't more uproar over that very fact.

Another 18 months of tory rule and who knows which way anyone will vote......

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 20:58:00

the steel thingy Euphemia ?

I was hoping it was going to be june like he promised something to do with The battle of bannockburn people would come over all patriotic , grin

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 20:58:23

If it's a no vote the Scots will have to stop moaning about being unfairly treated and about having Tory governments that they didn't vote for.

Good luck with that! grin

MissAnnersley Thu 21-Mar-13 20:59:24

Ha ha! Scots not moaning? grin

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Mar-13 21:00:13

There are more pandas in Scotland than Tory mps.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 21:00:30

Us moan never dunno what you are on about grin

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 21:01:47

There are more pandas in Scotland than Tory mps.

Long may that continue to be the case. smile

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:03:47

If you want to stand alone as a country then do it. Don't bleed the other one dry whilst making them out as the baddies all the time.

I have had so many relatives come over and bad mouth England, yet we fund so much of Scotland???

Enough.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 21:06:37

*If you want to stand alone as a country then do it. Don't bleed the other one dry whilst making them out as the baddies all the time.

I have had so many relatives come over and bad mouth England, yet we fund so much of Scotland???*

OK then hmm

Yes that's right ClippedPhoenix, none of us work or contribute anything. Bunch of feckless scroungers we are.

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 21:07:39

yet we fund so much of Scotland

Like what?

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 21:09:04

Mrs may I will happily take you in my suitcase - love your DDs thoughts on Alex salmond, I call him toad of toad hall - arrogant twat sat in his imaginary motor car going poop poop...

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:09:12

Why are you making that silly face mrsjay? basic truth is fine where i come from. Being plastic politicians isn't.

b4bunnies Thu 21-Mar-13 21:10:03

beginning of the end? that was ages ago.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:10:17

Umm, i think you will find we do....

OhBuggerandArse Thu 21-Mar-13 21:10:40

Erm, no BBC? Next time you go to Ireland, see what's on the telly. Yes, they have RTE, but everyone watches the BBC, ITV, Sky as well.

And it is more likely that Scotland will be part of the EU after independence than England will, if the Tories hold a referendum on EU membership.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 21:11:03

because everytime this conversation starts somebody comes onto a thread and says scotland bleeds england dry,EVERYTIME it is boring and not true ,

Weissdorn Thu 21-Mar-13 21:11:56

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HillBilly76 Thu 21-Mar-13 21:13:50

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:15:17

Actually Scotland technically funds the rest of the UK - we pay more into the pot than we get out.

There is a lot of concrete information out there.Have a look at the Yes Scotland website for a start. Obviously its biased but all the information is well referenced.

I don't understand all these people saying they don't like/trust SNP
/Alex Salmon.

The referendum is not about voting in the SNP for perpetuity. It is far to important to just vote yes or no based on personalities or prejudices. Please please do your own research. Look at the Yes site and the Better Together one.

Personally, anyone who thinks we could possibly be any worse off after leaving the union is insane. Have you seen what the Tories ate doing? And a change in government won't fix what the Tories are dismantling.

We are a bit protected from the worst excesses of Westminster by devolution - Scotland is in better shape than England because of this. We would be even better off under independence.

And remember the Better Together campaign - it would make every Scot one pound a a year worse off if they left the union. A price worth paying!

cozietoesie Thu 21-Mar-13 21:15:29

They can't.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:15:42

The truth is often boring mrsjay. Stand alone then, why would you not want this? why are you worried? does it have anything to do with finance per chance?

cozietoesie Thu 21-Mar-13 21:16:40

Sorry - that post was to HillBilly76.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:17:10

Why would Scotland need to replace public sector jobs.We will still need teachers nurses counsellors.There would also be more admin in an independent Scottish Parliament so more jobs to offset any lost.

HollyBerryBush Thu 21-Mar-13 21:17:28

what a stupid statementholly and thatcher ruined this country all off it

Your opinion, Mrs Jay I'm allowed to have mine, or I think I am allowed.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 21:18:43

England does not fund scotland he money is share din fact mr O has taken money off us , oh well think what you like you are going to anyway clipped I quite like being part of the UK and perfectly happy with devolution and dont really want independence

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:19:54

I'm all for each and every country being their own, forming their own unique identity, merging is messy and unproductive.

mrsjay Thu 21-Mar-13 21:20:10

Your opinion, Mrs Jay I'm allowed to have mine, or I think I am allowed.

of course you are just I think it is a stupid comment Margaret thatcher hated the north including scotland, this government are doing the same

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 21:21:36

their own unique identity

How would you define English identity as distinct from Scottish identity?

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 21:22:27

I'm sorry, it's a personality driven campaign based around Hrt cult of toad, it's blatantly obvious it's not what the Scottish people in general want, and I would like to know exactly how much Thr whole pointless vanity exercise is costing.

There is no sound economic or political reason for breaking up the union.

Let's just hope Orkney and Shetland do get their own referendum and bugger off to Scandinavia with the supposed oil money, it's like two kids citing over s football ATM.

ComposHat Thu 21-Mar-13 21:22:46

What I find ludicrous is my Scottish Friend, still has her passport, but lives in Canada is flying "home" to vote yes!

Surely she needs to be on the electoral roll in Scotland to vote? It is based on residency in Scotland not residency.

Eve Thu 21-Mar-13 21:22:51

I think ALex Salmond just wants to be king!

Find it 'interesting'. All but 3 Falkland Islanders determined to remain British ( realise indepence was notnthe question asked) and yet Scotland want to split.

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 21:23:29

What about the Cornish/geordie/ scouser identity? Should they all be differ countries too?

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:24:10

Trading between each however is very productive.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:26:51

Would you want to be rhonda? we are talking countries here and i do actually believe that scotland, wales and ireland are countries in their own right.

However, cornwall, liverpool et all are part of england.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:27:44

The SNP are all about independence. That is their "thing"

They were voted in as a majority government into a parliament specifically set up to avoid majority governments. The Scottish people voted overwhelmingly for the SNP. I think the results may be closer than you may think. I personally do not know anyone eligible to vote whowont be voting yes.

Alex Salmond doesn't matter. If you don't like him, vote him out after independence.

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 21:28:10

Could you answer my question please, Clipped?

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 21:29:57

Perhaps you should have that conversation with someone Cornish.

They would have an entirely different view.

Historically England was a collection of countries, which is why I think there isn't a strong national identity and some English get so upset About the Celtic countries having one,

Scotland can be a country in its own right AND part of the uk, just as countries can be part of the eu and still be countries.

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 21:31:10

Snp vote was a protest vote against labour. There was no other option, Tory party doesn't exist up here. We got toad features, the uk got the condems. For the same reasons.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:31:37

It can't really be a country in its own right if we have no say in who governs us, no say in defence, no say in benefits...

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:31:49

Ok then, i thought it was plain Euphemia. We are and should be stand alone countries, trade as such etc. that's respectful really.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - I don't know anyone who WILL be voting yes!

LiveItUp Thu 21-Mar-13 21:32:37

You see - it's started already. The bickering. The next 18 months are going to be interminable. Couldn't they just do it next week and get it over with. grin

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:32:54

or do you think the world should be as one? a wonderful fairy tale that would never work in reality.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:33:34

Yes the Tory party doesn't exist up here. Yet we are ruled by them...

Might as well LiveItUp, we won't get any more actual facts between now and the vote anyway!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:34:41

Are you on Scotland Statistically?

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 21:34:51

Clipped I asked you to define English identity as distinct from Scottish.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:35:03

Divisions are healthy and necessary. When things become far too mixed up is where trouble starts. No one knows who the hell they are and identity becomes lost

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 21:35:11

I'm going to hold a street party when the no vote comes in.

I'm seriously thinking about volunteering for the better together campaign and putting my time where my mouth is.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:35:57

There are plenty of facts out there. Please please go out and look. This is too important for you not to research.

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 21:36:17

Oooft clipped that's getting close to ukip/BFp rhetoric there.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:37:19

Rhonda Jean - yes, you should! The biggest threat to both campaigns is apathy. Get out there!

On and In it! I have researched thanks ItsAll - I'm not stupid and actually work in a company that is doing a lot of research about it too. The facts I want are what the separation agreement would look like - oil shares, asset and liability shares etc. Those "facts" don't exist because the negotiations haven't happened and won't until after the vote (assuming a yes)

sneezecakesmum Thu 21-Mar-13 21:38:51

If the vote is overwhelminly in favour of staying in the Union I just hope alex salmond would shut up about it. his constant posturing and misinformation wears me out.

Everyone wants the facts about oil, defence, the euro, the EU before decisions are made, not a load of nationalist claptrap.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:39:50

Oh pack it up euphemia. Ive already told you in a basic very warranted way.

So you are saying we are the same? our cultures are different, just because we speak the same language in different accents doesn't mean we aren't different. Nothing whatsoever wrong with that at all. If differences were celebrated half as much as certain people trying to force us to be the same the world would be a better place.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 21:41:42

"The United Kingdom will still exist, Scotland just won't be part of it."

The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

That's an ungainly mongrel of a country.

The implications of this vote for NI are huge.

Northern Irish Britishness is basically Scottish. You can see Scotland on a clear day. The cultural and linguistic connections are ancient.

If you take Scotland out of the picture, it's difficult to see why you would keep that union.

The Unionists' loyalty would be to a Britain that is divided.

Interesting times.

Best wishes to our Scottish neighbours, whichever way the vote goes smile

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:42:01

True, but you can extrapolate from the way assets of other countries have been split.

There are "rules" about how these things would happen.

You're right though,it would be good to have more concrete info, thing is neither Westminster or the EU will "prenegotiate".

But on the balance of probabilities I believe that at worst we will be very slightly worse off financially initially, but Scotland has a lot going for it.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:44:06

So be it then itsall if that's thee cas, independence is a grand thing.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:45:15

the case of course.

Manchesterhistorygirl Thu 21-Mar-13 21:45:39

She is. She still uses her fathers address as her UK residence. Even though she lives abroad.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:48:22

If she is on the electoral roll then fair enough, there is no other fair way to do it.

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 21:48:27

Clipped Why are you getting defensive? I'm genuinely interested to hear what you have to say on national identity.

I struggle to define "Scottishness" or "Englishness": I'd like to hear what other people think.

I fail to see why that triggers abuse from you.

Unfortunately my understanding from speaking to various people who have done a lot of research is that it's really not that straightforward and there are a LOT of factors which could come in to play. Bearing in mind the sums of money involved and the relatively small size of the Scottish population a few % difference either way could make an enormous difference. The lack of true answers about the EU, currency (cos of course we will be allowed to stay in the pound, it's guaranteed), military, oil etc...it all adds up to far too much uncertainty for me.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 21:51:46

"Oooft clipped that's getting close to ukip/BFp rhetoric there"

??????

It's about identity and surely no one wants to loose theirs? I'ts a very very fundamental part of who we are. Loss of identity is loss of oneself surely.

Change can come about in a far better way where integrity to ones country still stands and independence is the key to this. So are stand alone countries.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 21:52:53

But surely things like welfare/defence etc will be decided after independence by our elected representatives. We don't need to know before because after the referendum we would be able to decide these things to suit ourselves.

Things to do with rUK/EU mostly will be decided based on international law.

Oil is going to run out sure, but before it does it will be worth a lot billions even by the most negative predictions...

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 21:56:18

What we need is 547 days of sensible discussion, not political points-scoring and misty-eyed rubbish about being a nation again.

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 21:56:46

Have you actually read the ukip/bnp manifestos? Because if so you should, and think very hard.

Welfare yes (although how long will it take and how much will it cost to set up our own bodies to adminster this), defence is a bit different as whilst we can make changes in the long run all the bases, arms, soldiers etc currently belong to the UK as a whole - so what we will be starting from is not known. The EU issue clearly is not that simple or we would have an answer already - and if we had to join separately there is a high chance of being pushed in to the Euro.

Whilst an independent country could in theory make whatever choices it's representatives choose, the starting point makes a huge difference.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 22:00:24

What are you banging on about rhonda?

LeonardoAcropolis Thu 21-Mar-13 22:03:23

Thick question, maybe, but why has Salmond chosen next year for the referendum? Surely it would be better to wait for the economy , and the Euro (which Scotland may have to join?) to settle down?

bonbonpixie Thu 21-Mar-13 22:04:32

The whole thing makes me incredible nervous.
What will happen to house prices/pensions/taxes/banking/our military... I really feel that this is coming at the wrong time for a sensible balanced discussion. Too many are struggling because of world issues.
There are just so many questions to answer and all we seem to be getting via the media is 'down with the Tories ' and that fiscally we'll be fine as Scotland is dripping in black gold! It's just not the case. It baffles me when I overhear locals boast of our vast vast oil reserves and i live in Aberdeen. Many have no idea of the actual size of the Scottish sector let alone the revenue created from it.

I worry about the experience of the Scottish Parliament and MSP's as many of their previous large projects have left them red faced and pointing the finger at others.

We have so so many people unemployed and unwilling to work I worry what our economy would look like under all of that strain?

Anyway I guess we have a while to do the research, lets just hope that everyone is well informed before they cast their vote rather than basing it on an ancient feeling of injustice and inherited bitterness. Please let the past stay in the past and don't be swayed by the First Ministers sure to be painted face.

LifeofPo Thu 21-Mar-13 22:04:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I can't stand the nationalism that has infected political debate in Britain. Whichever label it comes in, it is white noise drowning out sensible comment. Ethnic identity has become so sacred that no one is allowed to criticise even the most abject pandering to it. My passport used to state my nationality in English and French, both international languages. Now it has a hotchpotch of minor languages and no French.

This pandering means we now have the s serious proposal to divide up a small island, inhabited by people who are much like eachother, into two.

It is obtusely petty.

rhondajean Thu 21-Mar-13 22:09:16

Im pointing out that the main political parties which bang on about national identity are far to extreme right wing parties. I can't cut and paste on my iPad but even a basic google will show what I mean.

We could add the English defence league into the list - and wherever you start introducing this concept of national identity over all else, you breed extremism.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 22:13:22

Scotland is different to England though.

Own education system, own legal system, own healthcare system, different priorities for spending, own Parliament...

This isn't nationalism it is fact.

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 22:14:02

grin at LifeofPo, yes what is wrong with you wanting to be independent. Surely the Scottish have been banging on about it for so long. It can happen now, be happy!

ClippedPhoenix Thu 21-Mar-13 22:15:28

By the way, I hope that Scotland does actually do this. Good for you! really..

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Mar-13 22:16:03

As for timing, next year is Commonwealth Games in Scotland, 700th anniversary of Bannockburn, Ryder cup.

He's not daft - all these things will help make the Scots believe in themselves

And the world financial situation is not going to settle down before the next Scottish election and they have to have the referendum before then.

LifeofPo Thu 21-Mar-13 22:23:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SirChenjin Thu 21-Mar-13 22:26:17

Don't worry OP - two thirds of us up here still retain the common sense we were born with. Alex and his ego won't be getting his way next September.

Euphemia Thu 21-Mar-13 22:32:03

gtf with all that Tory shite

I'll wave that flag! grin

determinedma Thu 21-Mar-13 22:34:55

Its very scary. I work for a very well known business support agency, and the business community is jittery about independence, membership of the EU, taxation, international trade, haulage, and a million and one other things. Without the businesses on board Scotland will have no economy to speak off. Many are already threatening to relocate. Be very careful Mr Salmon, what you wish for......

That's been my perception too determinedma

SirChenjin Thu 21-Mar-13 22:50:24

Agree. DH works in the financial sector and some of his clients are already looking at moving their money out of Scotland. Independence won't happen, I'm confident of that, but all this nonsense from the SNP undermines confidence in the lead up (I use the term loosely!) to the referendum.

mikey9 Thu 21-Mar-13 22:58:13

DOn't forget determinedma - it isn't what Mr Salmond wishes for that matters - the referendum is by the people. If they wish for it.......then so be it.

Why do we have to personalise it - so many comments pointing at Salmond, the SNP etc. who son't forget - wouldn't be in power if the people didn't vote for them in numbers greater than the others - and it is no secret what their agenda and aim is.

Whether they even exist after a Yes vote (or go their seperate ways and join/form other parties in an independent Scotland) occurs is another interesting one - and Salmond - well with an independent Scotland - would he need/want to continue.....?

On those grounds - if you want independence - vote yes- and if you don't like Salmond - then vote yes for independence too - and if you don't like the SNP - then vote yes again.....everybody wins!!

SirChenjin Thu 21-Mar-13 23:03:19

Salmond will lead the SNP until he drops down dead - his ego wouldn't allow him to do anything else!

There is a vast difference between voting for SNP and voting for independence - time and time again the polls have shown that only around a third of Scots support independence, and that figure hasn't changed for years (apart from the odd wee blip). I think the last election reflected people's dissatisfaction with Labour in Scotland, as with the rest of the UK. The Tories don't stand a chance up here, so SNP benefitted hugely from that overall swing away from New Labour.

Luckytwo Thu 21-Mar-13 23:35:11

Yes be very careful what you wish for Mr Salmond....it could be very costly for Scotland.

My biggest bugbear is that I live in England now and can't vote all because Toad of Toad Hall has decided to manipulate the voting population - allowing 16/17 year olds to vote, restricting the vote of 1st generation Scots living in the UK (as far as I know we are still part of the UK), allowing foreign nationals on the electoral role to vote.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's managed to change the law so only 25% of those on the electoral role need to vote yes for independence to be passed.

anonymosity Thu 21-Mar-13 23:41:18

The beginning of the end?
I thought the beginning of the end officially started with recession and the London riots.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Mar-13 23:58:59

It's pretty simple, you live in Scotland you get a say, you don't then you don't.

babanouche Fri 22-Mar-13 00:05:51

Does anyone here appreciate what 300 odd years of London rule does to a nation's psyche? There's a big lack of confidence in the Scottish population at a deep level which is masked by bravura. I've never been a nationalist but having moved back here from a long time in England my views are changing. I think it could be very good for us to be independent. Scary, yes, but that's what happens when you've been ruled by a foreign hand for so long. We've never loved the tories but they keep being voted in and will always be voted in so essentially we're in the hands of the English populace. I also think it will be a close run thing. I'm still undecided BTW.

thezebrawearspurple Fri 22-Mar-13 00:29:33

If the majority of Scots decide to be their own country and rule themselves then that's wonderful. I don't understand why you want to be ruled by people in London who are so far removed from your reality. Independence is freedom, the freedom to be better, the power to change in the direction of where the majority of people want to go. Scottish people won't lose by gaining power over their own future, whether they want that responsibility is up for a vote.

The uk is a dead empire anyway. Better that people focus on making the best of their own locality rather than poking their noses in everybody else's.

ukatlast Fri 22-Mar-13 00:56:48

In New Zealand a country which also has the benefit of oil and gas reserves and a small population 4m, the tax-take is such that NZ Governments of any political hue struggle to provide services at the sort of levels UK citizens expect.

What this means in practice is that there are monetary contributions expected from parents for state schools, fees to visit your GP, no subsidised dental service except for schoolchildren, mountain roads lacking crash barriers, no real motorways, an almost non-existent train network and kids living in poverty and suffering from diseases of poor housing(damp) which have already been eliminated in the rest of EU.

Scotland's population is not much bigger than that of NZ and one day the oil will run out......long-term it has got to be better economically for Scots to stay within the UK - the existing devolution arrangements courtesy of the Blair Government - allow Scots to ensure greater social justice in those periods when the Tories are in at Westminster.
Also England and Wales need you there as part of the United Kingdom so that they also don't have to suffer constant Tory Governments....we don't all like them.
Please think very carefully before abandoning all that shared history and social struggle.

ukatlast Fri 22-Mar-13 01:12:12

Quote Itsallgoingtobefine: 'The referendum is not about voting in the SNP for perpetuity.'

Well since all the other 3 parties endorse the No campaign, a Yes vote leaves them in a 'new country' they'd rather not be in....running Scotland is a lot easier with the UK institutions/large population behind it.

For as long as I can remember Alex Salmond is the SNP.....who else is involved and waiting in the wings....where is the long-term pool of 'talent'?

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 22-Mar-13 01:20:02

I'm hoping it doesn't happen, my father has been waiting for independence for so long that I'm worried he'll have a Simeon moment and declare
'Now I can die in peace' and then do it.
I was raised on the shared history, from Border ballads to Culloden and the Highland Clearances. I truly hope that they succeed and thrive, even if I have to take my passport when visiting relatives.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 22-Mar-13 01:20:55

Who knows, ukatlast. Perhaps the Diaspora may send a few back?

My perspective (a British expat) is that British people generally lack confidence; not just Scots.

From where I sit, cultural differences between Scotland and the rest of the UK aren't significant despite the unimportant fact that Scotland has its own legal system etc.

Scottish (and English) nationalism is just sterile identity politics.

ukatlast I hear you!

bluer Fri 22-Mar-13 05:17:27

I worry that from hearing my pupils at work that the snp will creep it in playing on the old notion of freedom. Several times i've heard them saying it...but they don't realise how the union came about. If Alex salmond gets Braveheart on the tv we're in trouble!
And don't get me started on the daft notion that we'll live on revenue from oil....oil is mostly gone, tired up already in long term contracts and it's a finite resource anyway. I suspect the snp will just pimp us out as a site for any unsightly wind farms that our neighbors don't want damaging their views...

HillBilly76 Fri 22-Mar-13 05:54:14

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ToupOfRegDwight Fri 22-Mar-13 06:55:21

My dad is very much Scottish, extremely patriotic, and voted 'YES' in the 70s. He told me that was when it should have been done but Thatcher counted uncast votes as a 'NO' so it didn't happen.

He will be voting 'NO' as it's not the right time and he feels the boat was missed 30+ years ago.

mikey9 Fri 22-Mar-13 07:03:56

"..where is the long-term pool of 'talent'?" - I assume you mean in the UK Parliament - there is little evidence of it at the moment.......

Your comments about New Zealand sound very much like the way the TOries are taking us anyway - have you tried getting non-private Dental treatment in Scotland....and Crash barriers on Mountain roads......have you been up here....and Motorways - well our nearest one is 120 miles South........have a look at the motorway map you will see a lot of whitespace across most of Scotland.
Apply the same thinking to the extensive!! train network up here....
We seem to be subsidising the primary school on a daily basis anyway so no change there either.......

Personally I prefer the push towards renewables already in Scotland (Plenty hydro power already - more in the pipeline now - more coming) - yes more windfarms both onshore and offshore, tidal stream turbines et all. Scotland has a real chance of energy independence for when the oil does run out.
The messages I here on this from the condems are pathetic NIMBY driven short term view based and don't impress at all.

Euphemia Fri 22-Mar-13 07:06:18

I'd do a deal with Fat Eck if it meant Donald Trump was banned from entering Scotland.

Talent? Have you heard Nicola Sturgeon?! She's awesome.

Luckytwo Fri 22-Mar-13 07:47:58

It's pretty simple, you live in Scotland you get a say, you don't then you don't.

I think it's pretty simple - as we are part of the UK now, it should be anyone born in Scotland of voting age. We didn't leave Scotland and go to Australia, or Canada -we moved a few miles down the M74/M6 , no emigration involved.

Salmond knows that if he allowed those of us living in the rest of the UK to vote, he would have a tougher battle on his hands.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 09:02:28

But if it the rest of the UK voted how would that be fair ?

If every Scot voted yes, and everyone else voted no then it would be a no vote.

If you don't live in a country why should you have any say in its future?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 09:06:35

The other three party's don't support independence.

The Greens do support independence.
There is a Labour for Independence movement
And a Lib Dems for Independence
(No Tories for Independence yet)

Not surprising as the only chance these parties have of regaining any power is in an independent Scotland where they can distance themselves from the toxic Westminster politics.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 09:10:17

The oil doesn't matter.

Yes it will run out, but Scotland has plenty of other things going for it.

Remember Scotland currently pays more to Westminster in oil revenues and taxes than it gets back. Scotland is not some sort of subsidy junkie relying on Westminster for handouts.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 22-Mar-13 09:20:16

But luckytwo you left the country!

I don't think that's strictly true ItsAllGoingToBeFine

stargirl1701 Fri 22-Mar-13 09:24:06

It's not going to happen. Other than my Dad, I don't know anyone else voting for independence.

Tailtwister Fri 22-Mar-13 09:26:32

I will be voting NO. I think it would be a huge mistake.

I think that before people make a decision, they really need to reaserch everything themselves and not rely on what the politicians are saying.

For example, I saw something where Salmond was discussing the oil fields, and he drew a line straight out horizontal from Berwick into the North Sea, marking a border between England and Scotland to show the fields he thought would become Scottish.

However, under international law, country borders that extend into the sea continue in the direction they do on land, so a border between England and Scotland would in reality be slanted north and Scotland would not get as many oil fields as Salmond was implying.

If people want independence, that's their choice, but I think they should be basing it on what's really going to happen and not what the politicians tell you is going to happen.

I am Scottish, born in Scotland and my children were born in Scotland. I don't live there anymore (and not even in the UK). I have been away for 10 years.

I do see both arguments about who should be allowed to vote but a 'yes' vote would still have serious repercussions for me, so why shouldn't I be allowed to vote?

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 10:45:27

I agree with your last statement fry,but that includes No campaign scare stories too.

I'm fundamentally voting yes though on the basis that every other country looks after itself, makes decisions for itself and has no one else to blame or answer to. I find the No campaign infantilising and patronising. I'm no SNP fangirl but more a Green or independent who approves of some of the recent policy decisions and thinks that we should continue to make these decisions and others by ourselves.

I can totally understand people who want to hear more before deciding. I can totally understand those like the OP who are worried about loss of their identity (although as someone who has never felt British, I can assure you you will survive when the shoe is on the other foot). I also am not keen on Salmond and I understand a lot of the anti-SNP feeling. What I cannot honestly fathom are the people who are instinctively against the very notion of Scotland governing itself, the very thought. Fear isn't a reason to vote no, just as blind patriotism isn't enough to vote yes.

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 10:47:13

and yy Euphemia, I like Sturgeon too (though my political heart still belongs to Margo...)

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 10:51:02

Simply nessie because it would be impossible to draw a line. I can see why you would feel like you should vote. But what if you'd been away for 30, 40 years and had no intention or interest in returning? Should you get the vote if your parents were Scottish but you've never lived here, and so on.

I'm afraid it has to be the will of those who choose to make their lives here. I also like that that includes those of all nations who make Scotland their home, my sense of nation is very much a civic and not an ethnic one or one tied up in place of origin.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 10:51:22

Nessie, the outcome of the vote will effect those resident in Scotland most.

This is a vote about a modern country being allowed to govern itself. Thus it should be decided by those who live there.

Surely a country should be defined by those who actually live there?

Shesparkles Fri 22-Mar-13 10:51:48

It's a great big NO from me too.
I trust Salmond as far as I can throw him, greasy slimy smug toad <rational as ever>

boxershorts Fri 22-Mar-13 10:53:09

This time the vote will go against Alex Salmon. Next time? who knows

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 10:55:28

It's not about salmond though, shesparkles. If it were I would vote NO too. It would be overwhelming.
Vote him out after the referendum and you will be much more likely to get the decision makers you want than under current system.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 10:55:40

Gah!

It's not about trusting Salmond!

Its about doing your own research and making a proper informed decision.

If you loath Salmond/SNP the best chance to get rid of them would be to vote yes.

To be brutal SNP wouldn't really have much point after a yes vote - all the other parties would come much more to the fore even potentially the Scottish Conservatives!

I had the pleasure of sharing a flight with Salmond and his entourage one day. Blinking ridiculous - the plane was delayed for ages (we were boarded and just sitting in the plane) and it became apparent why when salmond and co got on. And proceeded to take absolutely ages getting seated, then getting back up to rake for various things...in the end the Air Hostess told them to take their seats. But what was more amusing was that included in the group was a guy in full clan chieftain type dress...Just in case we hadn't realised they were Scottish.

(and I know it's not about trusting Salmond - just saying the behaviour was rather annoying)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 10:58:25

Ah, but the whole tartan clad highlander thing sells really well outside Scotland. I'd guess he'd been selling something. At least he wasn't wearing the kilt himself grin

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 10:59:33

Statisticallychallenged grin

New no campaign poster with salmond's face on it. Slogan: BEHAVES LIKE A FUD ON PLANES

Could work! smile

He was in Dublin and the Irish folk on the flight looked ready to thump him grin..mind you the rest of the scots looked verging on murderous...don't hold up a Friday evening flight taking a bunch of people who have been working away all week back home, and a bunch of rowdy Irish lads to a stag do

Shesparkles Fri 22-Mar-13 11:05:22

I was being lighthearted (although honest) with my comments about Salmond, but it's still a great big NO from me

AuroraAlfresco Fri 22-Mar-13 12:48:12

Yes, it's not about Alex sodding Salmond. If there's a Yes vote, the most likely thing that he'll do will be to retire from politics shortly thereafter.

Why is it, do you think, that the Better Together FB page feel the need to delete comments and ban posters who have an opposing point of view to theirs? I've seen it with my own eyes - I have a friend who used to regularly, politely, intelligently refute the points the Better Together scaremongers were trying to make ... she got banned. She was never remotely abusive, her mission was simply to inform people.

And this great video was taken down from YouTube several times over the last few days, thanks to an extremely weak "copyright" claim by Better Together - why? What are they so scared of?

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/03/19/top-10-unionist-myths-debunked-banned-then-re-debunked/

If they believe there are good reasons for Scotland to remain in the UK, then stay and fight your corner - don't just shut down debate, as they are doing!

SirChenjin Fri 22-Mar-13 13:15:55

Nope, he'll stay. Alex Salmond is the face of the SNP, and much like Thatcher you either love or loathe that face.

Fortunately for those of us here in Scotland, 2/3rds want to stay in the UK, 1/3rd don't. That figure really hasn't changed much over the years.

AuroraAlfresco Fri 22-Mar-13 13:21:49

OK, I don't have a direct line to Salmond's head, SirChenjin. Neither do you. But the point is, that he isn't the point! We're talking about our futures, our children's futures, their children's futures, etc etc - long after Salmond has shuffled off his coil.

It's about the right of a country to self-determination. Why on earth do people think that politicians in the SE of England know what's best for us, better than we do? confused

SirChenjin Fri 22-Mar-13 13:27:32

The people of Scotland do know - which is why 2/3rds of us (or therabouts) have consistently said "naw". We're far too sensible as a nation to vote otherwise, but I do look forward to the country socking it to the SNP (and Alex esp) formally next September.

if we choose to remain in the UK-not saying we will or won't-then surely that is self determination? We will have chosen to be governed as we are now

SirChenjin Fri 22-Mar-13 13:28:38

thereabouts

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 13:36:23

I actually agree StatisticallyChallenged. I personally feel that's a bit like someone handing over their earnings on payday willingly for someone else to spend and considering themselves to have free choices, but yes, I will be pleased to see the Scottish people vote on this either way.

SirChenjin, no harm in an actual vote then, eh? smile

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 13:39:39

Yes. It is. And that is why this referendum is so important. If the answer is No then the people of Scotland have determined they want to stay part of the UK.

It will also not be asked again in our lifetime.

This is why Scots owe it to themselves to forget their preconceptions, their prejudices. To ignore their friends and family. To do their own research, follow their own references. To vote the right way for them and their families.

SirChenjin Fri 22-Mar-13 13:42:28

No, bring on the vote Forgetmenots - I think it's about time that the SNP face up to reality once and for all, and learn to accept that the Scottish people don't want independence.

namechangeguy Fri 22-Mar-13 13:46:38

Will the SNP still have a reason to exist if people vote overwhelmingly against a split? Or will they continue to bang their crappy little empty tartan shortcake tin over this issue?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 13:51:11

I imagine their numbers would be decimated as they would have lost all credibility.

Shame really as, independence debate aside, they are making a good job of running the country.

namechangeguy Fri 22-Mar-13 13:57:40

I imagine Salmond et al will find a way to justify getting beaten at the polling station, and carry on regardless.

JollyYellowGiant Fri 22-Mar-13 14:04:09

Surely it makes sense for people who choose to live in Scotland to be the ones who get the say in the country's future? I can't see any other sensible way to do it. Young people will have to put up with the decision for longer than pensioners, and immigrants have (in most cases) chosen to live, work and pay taxes in Scotland.

I agree that a Yes vote is not an SNP vote. And that a Yes outcome would likely mean the end of the SNP. They are such a disparate party that there is nothing else holding them together, apart from a general left leaning. But having said that, the party is not short of 'natural Tories' either.

Saltire Fri 22-Mar-13 14:04:45

If I lived in Scotland I would vote no. However even though i am a Scot I liv ein England so can't vote. What I find more alarming is the attitude of the 16/17 years I know, who have no clue what they are voting for!
What if they all have no clue?

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 14:09:46

What if 27 year olds have no clue? Do they still get a vote?

Agree 100% jollyyellowgiant.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 14:23:08

In Scotland you can marry at 16, of course you should be able to vote.

By engaging young people in the voting system earlier hopefully we can help to tackle voter apathy.

bangwhizz Fri 22-Mar-13 14:57:16

I wish the English could vote on getting rid of Scotland!!!

ComposHat Fri 22-Mar-13 15:00:07

I'm English but live in Scotland. I get a bit hacked off with English based Scots moaning that they don't have a vote in the Referendum and I do.

Tough shite - you all fucked off at 17/18 and didn't come back, you lost your say when you went chasing the dollar down south. You don't use services in Scotland, you don't support the Scottish economy, you don't live here any more and I do.

namechangeguy Fri 22-Mar-13 15:12:01

I wish the English could vote on getting rid of Scotland!!!

Alex Salmond has really missed a trick there. He'd get all the independence he could wish for grin

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 15:43:48

Completely agree ComposHat. I welcome your vote however you vote.

bangwhizz, you're a charmer. I'm a yes voter but I won't be glad to see the back of England or anything like it, horrible rhetoric.

Mimishimi Fri 22-Mar-13 15:58:14

I'm of Scots descent (McBurney). To be honest, I don't think we've ever got over the loss of Dalriada. grin We've never trusted the English, they're always sending us off to one bloody war or another or waging it on us if we refuse...

ComposHat Fri 22-Mar-13 16:08:27

forgetmenots

Cheers, I haven't fully decided how to vote yet, it is difficult as we are being asked to vote on an idea, rather than a fully worked out proposal for independent Scotland.

I'm a bit worried about being sent to a transit camp in Carlisle if the Yes vote win. I'll spend my time trying to attach myself to the underside of cross border trains in order to get back home.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Mar-13 16:15:13

No one should vote on the fact that they hate the English or have some sort of blind Braveheart patriotism.
This is going to be the most important decision Scotland will ever have to make and we can't take it lightly.
I'm still undecided, I'm still reading the pros and the cons.
The main thing that would make me vote yes at the moment is the thought of years and years of a Tory Government.
For me that is just untenable.

babanouche Fri 22-Mar-13 16:17:50

Agreed, LadyBeagle.

I agree, I generally get very irritated by people who try to turn this into an anti English braveheart sentimental argument.

AuroraAlfresco Fri 22-Mar-13 17:20:28

No one should vote on the fact that they hate the English or have some sort of blind Braveheart patriotism.

The only people who assert that our reasons for voting Yes include the above ... are the No camp! I don't know a single person who will be voting yes on this basis. We're not stupid grin

(Oh, and I've never seen Braveheart ...!)

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Mar-13 17:39:37

Actually, you're probably right Aurora.
Apart from a couple of daft kids, most people I know are taking it seriously.
Maybe I'm just jumping in in advance before this thread goes the way that these threads inevitably do, and all the nasty anti Scots posts take over.
I've seen it way too often grin

unfortunately I have heard a fair few folk doing the whole anti English bit but to be blunt I'm not sure most of them will even be on the voter's register! wink

Tortington Fri 22-Mar-13 18:09:03

its got to impact on us the English if you are putting more in the pot ( as was said above) and you leave, we are going to suffer. The English should therefore get a vote.

I would like the perimeters of the aforementioned pot explained if at all possible. Does it include defence for instance?

forgetmenots Fri 22-Mar-13 18:42:24

Custardo, that's like asking all the other EU countries to also vote on the Uk's continued membership rather than just UK citizens.

It will though of course affect the rest of the uk in a big way. What do you mean by perimeters of the pot, are you asking what we currently contribute to or what would be separated?

custardo I looked at some figures earlier. On a percentage basis, if you include the 'geographical'share of North Sea oil in the revenue contribution from Scotland then the percentage contribution to the UK budget from Scotland is fractionally higher than the percentage of the UK expenditure we receive. that's based on figures that include shares in things like defence that are not devolved. but it's a small percentage difference-around .5% iirc.

However. ..on a monetary amounts basis we get more out than we put in. This is because overall expenditure is higher than revenue. I'm on my phone just now so can't link.

Luckytwo Fri 22-Mar-13 18:50:59

I may have left the country but I didn't emigrate. I moved a few hundred miles, that's all. We would never have considered emigrating and it is our intention to move back when we can.

This is not a safe legal arrangement and I think it could be challenged in the High Court.

I don't think for a minute that anybody not born in Scotland should have the vote, nor do I think that any Scot who has emigrated should have the vote. I think that all of us Scots living in this nation that is currently the UK should have the vote as we are all affected by it.

I don't think that any foreign nationals who live in Scotland should have the vote either, tbh, and have been discussing this with my French colleagues recently. They do not get to vote in general elections here, so why should foreign nationals in Scotland get to vote in the independence election.

From wiki:-

'Under the terms of the 2010 Draft Bill, the following people would be entitled to vote in the referendum:[15]
British citizens resident in Scotland;
Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland;
citizens of other European Union countries resident in Scotland;
members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland;
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the armed forces or with Her Majesty's Government who are registered to vote in Scotland'

Just about the only folk who can't vote are Scots living outwith Scotland in the rest if the UK.

Not on, in my view.

JollyYellowGiant Fri 22-Mar-13 19:00:08

If I moved to England I would have considered that emigrating. It is another country after all.

My earlier post still stands about those who choose to live here having the vote. If I recall correctly, the same list of eligibility applies to Scottish Parliament elections, so it has hardly come out of the blue.

ComposHat Fri 22-Mar-13 19:00:35

The key word is resident.

It is based on residency not nationality.No one has Scottish 'nationality' in the legal sense at least. Being born in Scotland doesn't cut the mustard. My fiancee's granddad was born in Edinburgh whilst his father was stationed there in the Army, but left a few weeks after his birth, should he get a vote? (He's dead now, but you get the point.

By the same token should my fiancee be able to vote in the London Mayoral election because she was born in London, but now lives in Scotland?

If you want to have a say about the future, move back, become a resident and then you are more than welcome to vote.

JollyYellowGiant Fri 22-Mar-13 19:01:00

And Scots living in Canada, France or Japan can't vote either.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 19:11:06

The 2011-2012 Government Expenditure and Revenue figures show that Scotland has 8.4% of the UK population and we receive 9.3% of UK public spending to run our services. However, what many people don’t know is that is that we generate 9.9% of UK taxes (up from 9.6% the previous year).

When we include all sides of the balance sheet - spending, tax revenues and borrowing - what this means is that, in the most recent year that full figures are available (2011-12), Scotland contributed £4.4 billion more in comparison to the rest of the UK.

Luckytwo Fri 22-Mar-13 19:21:29

Emigrating is moving to Canada, Japan or Australia. Papers are required, permission is required. There is no emigrating in moving around the UK at the moment.

How come do the French, German or other EU nationals get to vote when they are living there even if only for a short time? That is outrageous. It is of no consequence to them.

Anyway the reason is clear, if he does not allow the non Scotland residents Scots living in England, Northern Ireland or Wales to vote, he thinks he will win.

Mind you with a bunch of Scottish Nationalists running the show, I'd say good luck.

Lets add a few facts.

voting - people on the electoral roll will get the vote. If you see yourself as ever-so Scottish but live in Chicago and are not registered to vote in Scotland, it doesn't matter how much you bemoan the lack of Haggis and availability of Buckie, ya cannae vote.

Money. Taxes / spending. Including North sea oil revenues, last year according to the GER report. Tax take in Scotland was 53.1Bn GBP. Public expenditure was 63.8Bn GBP. You can play around with percentages all you like but running a structural deficit in excess of 20% of total tax take is ultimately unsustainable when you have no access to Bond markets. (How can you without an S&P Rating) and with finances like that it aint gonna be much better than Portugal. Also the £470Bn Cash and liquidity injection to support BOS and RBS is owed to the UK Govt. So either the bank stays controlled by Westminster or the new govt buys it. See above point about access to that kinda Dough. Either way that is gonna soon add up to real money.

Lets finally deal with ruled by evil tories fib shall we? Who sets Health and education spending? Wee Eck. Who sets welfare spending? Wee Eck. With the Devo Max current settlement there are huge disparities over power between London and Edinburgh. Oh and the EU. ignore what the nats say - Scotland will have to apply to join the EU under the terms of an acceding state. The requirement of that is to join the Euro. Unless Scotland wants to stay in Monetary union with London and keep the pound. But then you wont have control over fiscal and macro economic policy (more than if your currency was controlled by the ECB but not much) and in a year or two it will be a clamour for real independence as the evil tories are controlling Scotlands money.

Now you may read this and think I am anti independence, far from it. I am 100% in favour of Scottish independence. England will be marginally better off, we will have a new neighbour who will stop blaming us for everything and without a huge rump of labour MPs there is a good chance that we will never see the mendacious labour party ever grace the doors of Westminster again. So England wins, Scotland gets what it wants. Win. Win.

(of course Scotland will have a tough time of it, when the rich have been soaked to pay for everything and there is no money left. But hey, you're grown ups, you can add, you can do the math. Good luck, best wishes, sincerely I hope you make a go of it. BTW Can you make sure that you need a visa to visit England? cos that way we can keep Gordon Brown out forever. Ta muchly)

itsallgoingtobefine leave percentages out and look at the actual numbers from the ONS and our figures dont take into account the debt servicing which is centrally funded and the money to support HBOS and RBS. Where did your 4.4Bn come from? See here www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990 or here www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9131062/John-Swinney-accused-of-misleading-public-over-Scottish-tax-and-spend.html

Take yer pick

That was kind of my point voiceofnoreason - I was trying to highlight how both sides are getting away with saying the numbers support their arguments. But yes, the reality is a new and untested Scotland would not have a strong credit rating and would probably have difficulty borrowing at the level which would be needed to maintain the level of spending we have. Because in the UK as a whole we spend more than our revenue.

And that's before you factor in the expenses of creating all the new departments/functions we would need (e.g. a Scottish DWP) - we are talking pretty huge sums to get that running

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 19:49:45

When a bank fails that operates in more than one country the liability is split. so Scotland would need to repay about 10% of the bailout costs.

Yes Scotland's outgoings are greater than the UK. But most countries run at a deficit. And the Scottish deficit is less than the UK at a whole.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 19:51:01

That should read outgoings greater than income

JollyYellowGiant Fri 22-Mar-13 19:51:10

Who sets welfare spending? Wee Eck

?

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Mar-13 19:54:09

voiceofnoreason, I think the Scottish Health service and education budget speaks for itself.
IME it's far better than the English model, 'Wee Eck' has so far had his priorities right.
I'm more worried about the things we can't control like the overhaul of the benefits system and the treatment of the unemployed, the disabled, and the working poor.
I'd like to see the policies on our most vulnerable members of society.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 19:55:41

Welfare spending is not devolved.

they dont have to run at a deficit. Particularly when economies are growing.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Mar-13 20:02:33

No they don't have to but comparable countries do. And if Scottish gets independence and can fully set its own budgets we could be in a much better place.

One obvious saving would be not having to pay towards trident.

JollyYellowGiant Fri 22-Mar-13 20:09:51

voiceofnoreason, suggesting that welfare spending is devolved isn't exactly adding facts to the debate.

If folk intend to add facts rather than opinion then it is sensible to reference them.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Mar-13 20:20:04

You see, this is one of the reasons I'm still a don't know.
I want to know what we'll do about welfare (could it be any worse?), about basic taxation etc. etc.
We're voting on independance, but I need to know what the plans are after.

ComposHat Fri 22-Mar-13 20:21:25

Anyway the reason is clear, if he does not allow the non Scotland residents Scots living in England, Northern Ireland or Wales to vote, he thinks he will win

Nonsense. The electoral roll is the only logical basis on which a referendum could be held, for the reason I've stated up thread.

Emigrating is moving to Canada, Japan or Australia. Papers are required, permission is required. There is no emigrating in moving around the UK at the moment.

you could up sticks and move to any EU nation tomorrow and nor require any paperwork or permission.

How come do the French, German or other EU nationals get to vote when they are living there even if only for a short time? That is outrageous. It is of no consequence to them

Because they will be living working, paying taxes and supporting the Scottish economy and deserve a say. The referendum result will impact on their day to day life far more than someone born on the bonnie bonnie banks of Long Lomond but pissed off to Surrey 20 years ago.

determinedma Fri 22-Mar-13 20:22:47

If you are Scots but don't live here, you don't get a vote. You don't contribute to the economy or use the services,so tough luck. Move back to this paradise that you left and register on the electoral roll if you wish to vote.My rather large extended family are Anglo Irish and live here. We will all be voting no.

facts...
www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/higher/modern/uk_gov_politics/gov_sco/revision/1/

welfare includes social work and housing?

and yes the numbers above dont include defence spending. so yes if I was running scotland I wouldn't renew trident or buy any planes or keep the soldiers. I would close the dockyards like faslane and make the military redundant.

I am not commenting on priorities or the vulnberable. Just the numbers. I really think it should be up to the Scottish people to sort their own priorities out. And pay for them of course.

I am sure it will all be ok, truly I do. Sustainable, perhaps not, as the great scottish historian Tytler said A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses...

Scotland will be a smaller country and it will be interesting to watch.

Of course they can always buy a magic money tree from Robert M's money tree emporium of Harare. Gordon tried it. He was running a deficit of 156Bn a year before he left.

Tchoh the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money. See here. Salmond rallies the Yes campaign

gastrognome Fri 22-Mar-13 20:33:16

Does anyone know if registered overseas voters will be able to vote in the referendum?

If you are registered as an overseas voter then your constituency is the one you last lived in before leaving the UK. So if that was in Scotland, then you remain on the electoral roll in Scotland. So theoretically you should be able to vote.

But a lot of posts on here state that overseas voters won't be able to vote in the referendum... So I'm a bit confused about the rules! Anybody have any idea?

JollyYellowGiant Fri 22-Mar-13 20:36:32

A majority of Scot surveyed would like to see welfare devolved: www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-case-for-wider-devolution-1-2843824

Apologies, I was going with 'Social Security (the Department for Work and Pensions)' as being the sensible definition of welfare. I suppose if social work and housing are classed as welfare then education and healthcare could be too.

Although BBC bitesize says 'housing' is devolved it also says 'Social Security' is reserved, which does include the 'bedroom tax' which will be levied on Scots too. Changes to disability benefits, and tax credits brought in by the Westminster gov't are all applicable in Scotland.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18078260 The Scottish Parliament cannot stop Westminster changing the welfare benefits system.

mikey9 Fri 22-Mar-13 21:04:13

Another Englisher here who thinks It is right I get to vote, I live here in the Highlands - and chose to do so - with my Scots wife and Scots children (born here too). I use the services, I contribute to the economy and the community and use the services provided.
I consider that this is what I am voting about, how the country is run - by selected devolved powers decided in Westminster - or from Edinburgh directly with locally elected representation making the decisions across the piece.

I fully expect a vote, will get to vote, and consider it right that I, and clearly it is right that Scots who have chosen to leave and seek employment out of the Country don't get to. Scotlands economy will rise or fall on our decision, we who live here will be the ones affected. If I (and my family) move away to England - I won't expect to be able to vote on it - not that we plan to leave.

But no - I don't know which way I will vote - I will decide over the coming 15 months.......and I will do my best to ignore the rants of the extremes and go with what i think will do best for my families' future -

Tartan shortbread - bravehart pipers -nessie kilts and Bannockburn haggis will have no influence over my decision!

Do you think we could get odds at William Hill on Rob Roy or Braveheart being broadcast at some point in the week before?! ;)

In all seriousness I agree with you Mikey9 - the people who choose to make their lives here should be the ones voting.

Luckytwo Sat 23-Mar-13 09:38:20

Compos Hat - from the Electoral Commission regarding general elections in the UK

'Who is eligible to vote at a UK general election?
To vote in a UK general election a person must be registered to vote and also:

be 18 years of age or over on polling day
be a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
not be subject to any legal incapacity to vote

Additionally, the following cannot vote in a UK general election:

members of the House of Lords (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)
EU citizens resident in the UK (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)
anyone other than British, Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens
convicted persons detained in pursuance of their sentences (though remand prisoners, unconvicted prisoners and civil prisoners can vote if they are on the electoral register)
anyone found guilty within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal practices in connection with an election'

So the importance of the referendum on independence has been pitched at the same level as a local council election.

To be honest, I don't mind that anyone who lives in Scotland can vote, fair enough, my problem is that I have committed the worse crime of all, moved South - yet I have not severed links with my country at all, and at the moment could return at any time, but if independence is voted for, who knows ? I'll probably need a visa to get back in.

forgetmenots Sat 23-Mar-13 10:26:56

luckytwo, come on. You can't vote in Scottish Parliament elections. Even in UK elections you vote your local candidate as you are well aware, and votes are counted under first past the post. You have not voted in anything directly Scottish since you left as your vote is in an English constituency. It's not about moving south (or east, north or west), it's about moving out of the territory defined in this election, again I ask where would the line be drawn? Should I get a vote in Irish elections because I am part Irish but have never lived there, even though I have strong family ties? Of course not. I don't live there. As for the visa stuff, give me a break. No need for alarm.

If you really feel this strongly about it and 'could come back at any time', then I suggest you do that. The idea that expats might get to vote and those of us who plan to live and work here every day are expected to abide by a decision that they might have a deciding vote in - whilst potentially never returning to or contributing further to Scotland - is nonsense.

Luckytwo Sat 23-Mar-13 10:40:35

No - I think you have to live there for two years.

Anyway as I said before I am not en expat. An expat is somebody who lives in a different country. If England was a different country then Scotland would not need a referendum vote.

It is an extremely important vote, and people should feel strongly about it. I am surprised at the level of animosity against those of us who chose to move down the road - and I can't see why anyone would think we didn't have an interest. That is nonsense.But as I said before, if you choose independence, you'll either get Salmond or a libdem in charge. The reason you're in this mess is because the Scottish people for one reason or another decided labour was not a viable alternative , and chose SNP. That wont change after a succesful vote, and Salmond will have a mandate to do what he likes, with the interference of Brussels and Germany. What if you need a bail out - somebody will come raiding your personal savings.

forgetmenots Sat 23-Mar-13 10:58:55

And if you establish residency here again you can vote in this!

I do genuinely understand why you feel like you should get a vote, luckytwo, but like it or not you've chosen to live outside of Scotland at the time of this vote. I see your point of view about there being no need for a refendum vote as they are one, but even the most ardent unionist I'm sure would concede that we are discussing a political union between two countries, not just one country.

The logical extension of your argument would see all expats given the right to vote. I've no animosity towards anyone here, and again I don't like the fact that it's being made to sound like an anti-English point of view when the same could apply to any country or indeed part of the UK. Scots living in England are simply being treated in the same way as other Scots living outside of Scotland, and I honestly can't see how that can alter in a fair vote.

For me, the question should be - are you on the electoral roll in Scotland, and are you an adult in the eyes of Scots law? At the moment these are the terms and so I will happily abide by any result. I think this is a very prudent move on the part of both Scottish and UK governments as it would be much easier to rubbish a no vote based on votes from outside of Scotland, I feel that whatever the outcome here the terms are clear and fair.

Even although you sound like you will not be voting on the same line as me, if you feel so passionately about it, I really would consider moving back,or at least trying to convert a Yes voter?

Luckytwo Sat 23-Mar-13 11:08:18

No - expats are completely different, they have moved outwith the UK. There is no expat community down here.

It is completely different. We moved some years ago because my husband's company closed the plant he was working in and was lucky to be offered a new job in England. They might have asked him to move to the US - and have done since- but we would have - and did- decline because that is a whole different issue. We were not prepared to be so far from our families. A few hours in the car is all it is, probably the same distance as Dumfries to Aberdeen.

I can't just up sticks and come home to vote - I have four children and a job here.

Also I'm not sure how I would vote if I was allowed to - I haven't seen any proper arguments for or against. The only stuff I have read is about anti English on the ones side and anti - Scots from the other.

If I thought an independent country would see the end of the Scottish Nationalist party, I would vote for it smile

forgetmenots Sat 23-Mar-13 11:18:26

I think though opening the vote to Scots in the rest of the UK (only those born in Scotland? would there have to be a minimum previous amount of residency, etc etc) would be tricky legal ground and would likely open the vote to expats, which I do think would be seriously unfair.

I do see why you feel like it should be your vote too. I think in your position I'd be doing my best to convert someone who could vote to my point of view once decided. Not ideal but doing my bit, iyswim. It's unfortunate, but I still feel the rules are as fair as they can be, the last thing I'd want is a contested result to be honest.

I think the SNP will disband shortly after a yes vote, as the party is such a broad church that the one collective idea it shares would be gone. I'm not an SNP activist but I will be voting yes - simply believe in the right of people to run their own affairs and I believe the political divisions in the UK do not allow dor this or attempt to understand it. The arguments have usually gone down to horrible levels I agree, on both sides. This thread has been quite tame so far... (awaiting the inevitable...!)

Luckytwo Sat 23-Mar-13 11:53:28

Oh I will have to do as you suggest. Sadly my parents are both dead, but I know my brother has voted SNP in the past. My MIL reckons 'they all just do the same, there's no point in me voting!' so I don't think she even gets how important this vote is.

Do you think though, that Alec will just roll over and give up ? I don't think so. I don't mind Nicola Sturgeon though, but I think whenever there's a tricky situation he leaves her to do the talking .

But I do worry that a yes vote will mean becoming independent within Europe, signing up to the Euro, and the possibility of peoples' savings being raided as part of a bailout in the future. It will certainly mean more exposure for Scotland in terms of future economic disasters for Europe, also revenue from Oil will not go straight to the Scottish purses. I can't really see any positives, would love to hear them.

JollyYellowGiant Sat 23-Mar-13 12:25:26

The positives:
Being able to choose an immigration policy tailored to Scotland rather than the UK as a whole.
Not having Trident.
Being able to agree our own welfare system.
Not being ruled by a government we didn't vote for - Scotland is generally more left wing.
Being able to have appropriate taxation to encourage growth.
Being able to borrow and spend capital finances as we wish.
Not having an extra tier in the court system (current appeals go to England first then Europe. As far as I know no other country has this extra tier).
Having more ability to choose which wars we send our troops to fight and die in.
Being in Europe. If the Tories have a referendum on the EU while we are still part of the UK, Scotland might have to leave despite our people voting to stay in.

forgetmenots Sat 23-Mar-13 12:49:56

I like Sturgeon too, especially when they're in tricky spots she seems to have real integrity. I think Eck will see out the time until the first elections of the new parliament (so he will have his time as the first Prime Minister), and then step aside. I think if you decide no, a conversion is probably your best bet of getting involved, and to be fair it will count as double (one less yes and one more no!)

My own positives (although I agree with those from Jollygreengiant) are much simpler - we can deal in the best way for the Scottish people with any decisions we need to make, and there's no blaming anyone else or hiding behind anyone else. The overwhelming majority of other countries in the world already do this and almost none do it without genuine fear of violence, I don't understand why the respective countries of the UK can't be politically independent to ensure the best for their own peoples, and be firm allies, neighbours and friends, sharing certain things when needed (see Scandinavia and their joyful sharing of quality television! Tongue in cheek but a good example of a lot of the issues).

forgetmenots Sat 23-Mar-13 12:51:46

Jollyyellowgiant! I apologise!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 23-Mar-13 13:26:58
forgetmenots Sat 23-Mar-13 13:30:10

I bloody love Ian Bell, even when I disagree with him (which is rare) his column is one of the very few properly thought out pieces of writing in the papers at the moment.

Tortington Sat 23-Mar-13 15:01:40

poster StatisticallyChallenged Fri 22-Mar-13 18:50:16
custardo I looked at some figures earlier. On a percentage basis, if you include the 'geographical'share of North Sea oil in the revenue contribution from Scotland then the percentage contribution to the UK budget from Scotland is fractionally higher than the percentage of the UK expenditure we receive. that's based on figures that include shares in things like defence that are not devolved. but it's a small percentage difference-around .5% iirc.

However. ..on a monetary amounts basis we get more out than we put in. This is because overall expenditure is higher than revenue. I'm on my phone just now so can't link.
--

great post, thank you so much for giving me the information.

I wondered what made you think Scotland should get a % of the oil revenue?

Tortington Sat 23-Mar-13 15:05:19

voiceofnoreason Fri 22-Mar-13 19:22:58

love your post.

dont agree with it - but really love it

Custardo - Wasn't saying I agreed or disagreed re oil revenue. The figures which are produced show different versions of revenue. I used the figures including geographical share as it's the highest figure and if you are discussing what Scotland "contributes" to the pot then surely you must say some of the oil is Scottish (on the basis of location). I suppose the better question is why wouldn't you - otherwise when you are establishing what percentage Scotland contributes you would effectively be saying all the oil is English/Welsh/Northern Irish?

ThreeMenFromCarntyne Sat 23-Mar-13 15:27:59

We did a straw poll at work the other day 10 members of staff at work, not a single yes vote amongst them.

"It's about the right of a country to self-determination. Why on earth do people think that politicians in the SE of England know what's best for us, better than we do? "

It is a referendum the entire electorate get to vote to decide on Scotland's future, I do think the no vote will win but we have every right to have the vote, and if we do vote no, for whatever reason, we have every right to complain about the Westminster government, because they will still be our government just a hugely un-representative government of the Scots.

I look at countries like Norway to see why I would prefer to have independence, Scottish politics generally lean towards the left, but we don't get that just now with the Condems in power. I want independence for future generations not for the SNP, self-determination, a good relationship with the rest of Europe including our nearest neighbours! If we don't get it I will happily accept the majority vote, but I still have the right to express my opinion.

I also think any long term, voting age, resident of Scotland should have the right to vote, that is fair, no matter where they were born, they have a right to determine what the country they live in should do. Whoever mentioned needing a passport to cross the border??? Have you been to thr Republic of Ireland lately? No border controls there!

MrsKeithRichards Sat 23-Mar-13 16:23:46

We're not to far from Holland, I might decide to move their at some point soon, my uncle lives there, I've been a few times. I demand a say in their elections!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 23-Mar-13 16:45:58

If you move to Holland and go on their electoral roll as an EU citizen I'm pretty sure you could have a say in their elections

ShellyBoobs Sat 23-Mar-13 16:57:32

The only good thing to come from the referendum will be the end of Salmond and Sturgeon (to all intents and purposes) for the rest of the UK.

If they 'win' they'll be merrily off on their way, running Scotland into the ground.

If they lose, they'll disappear from the political headlines pretty quickly.

Win, win.

forgetmenots Sat 23-Mar-13 17:12:14

Agree 100% tapselteerieO.

How are you voting shelly (for some reason I have assumed you might not get a vote, which I realise is an unfair assumption)?

ShellyBoobs Sat 23-Mar-13 17:18:27

No vote for me, forgetmenots.

ShellyBoobs Sat 23-Mar-13 17:19:14

Sorry, that could be misconstrued. I meant to say, I don't get a vote.

forgetmenots Sat 23-Mar-13 17:38:29

Didn't mean to make the assumption either, can understand the dislike of AS (but like Sturgeon!)

People will still vote for A.S & the SNP, if/when the vote is no, as a protest against how shite Labour are & because at least they are interested in Scotland and not just arse-licking their party leaders.

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