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to think it's inappropriate for DD to share a bed/room with a boy twice her age?

(288 Posts)
princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:25:30

DD is only just 5. She sees her father every other weekend. He has a girlfriend who has a ten year old brother who often sleeps over when DD is there. Her father bought a bunk bed for her room with a double bed on the bottom, which she says they usually share. There is another spare room in the house so no need for them to share rooms let alone beds IMO. She spoke about his 'bits pointing up' when he woke last week and I feel very uncomfortable about them sharing a bed/room. AIBU?

TeamEdward Wed 20-Mar-13 22:27:31

YANBU.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:27:46

Yanbu at all. I would have a serious talk with your ex. If he refuses to change the sleeping arrangement I would not te dd go there wtf is he playing at. Teir is another safe room for godske

hwjm1945 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:28:19

No.this is a non related young boy who may be onset of puberty at any time.for his protection as well as your daughters they should be in separate rooms.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:28:21

Meant spare

Edgarallen Wed 20-Mar-13 22:28:34

YANBU

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:30:06

Even if related t is nt appropriate as there s another spare room

YANBU. Inappropriate.

mum382013 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:30:53

i would say it was a cp issue so yanbu

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:31:50

I've told him I'm not happy before, he insists that as he knows the boy and I don't it's up to him to judge.

b4bunnies Wed 20-Mar-13 22:32:53

it is abusive or potentially abusive so put a stop to it.

steppemum Wed 20-Mar-13 22:35:49

doesn't matter if he knows the boy or not. 10 yo boy sharing bed with 5 year old girl isn't appropriate.

it isn't fair on the boy either.

ThisIsMummyPig Wed 20-Mar-13 22:36:33

That's badly wrong.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:36:37

It is I would nt allow her to stay there if it continues t is a potential child protection issue. Teir is no need for your dd to share a bed with this boy. Why te hell are they sharing when there is a spare room hmm

It makes no difference whether he knows the boy or not - it's not even necessarily that this child would do anything to your daughter out of malice or "abusiveness" - it's that something could happen without either of them understanding or knowing just what they were doing or why they shouldn't be, and the consequences could rip your family and your XHs girlfriends's family apart.
Surely he can see this? It's not just your DDs protection, it's the boy's too - they are both children who need to be looked out for and kept safe in every way. Obviously your concern is for your DD, but I am amazed the girlfriend is happy with such an arrangement for her 10 yr old brother confused -surely the potential for damage/disaster is obvious?

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:38:01

This sounds a bit off really what the hellis your ex paying at. Why would a boy of that age want to share a bed with a little girl

TheChaoGoesMu Wed 20-Mar-13 22:38:31

Absolutely not. How did she see his bits anyway? It would be separate rooms or not going at all if it was me. For the protection of both of them.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:39:02

I agree with pombear, put it better than I did

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:39:56

What about bedroom? AIBU to say they should sleep in separate rooms altogether? Although they'd still watch films in bed together which also worries me as ex lets her watch the boys choice of film - usually transformers - which is a bit sexy ( not to mention scary!)

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:41:29

Yes separate bedrooms. I would be having serious wrds to ex about what films she's watching

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:41:59

There is a spare bedroom so she r he should go there

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:43:24

Bits were visible through PJ's she said. Feel sorry for boy too as she said he covered his eyes when she randomly dropped her trousers to go for a wee and that he locks himself in the bathroom to get dressed so he's obviously conscious of things.

GaryBarlowsPants Wed 20-Mar-13 22:44:10

YANBU - totally agree with Pombear, and would definitely insist on separate rooms, or DD would be picked up before bedtime.

AThingInYourLife Wed 20-Mar-13 22:44:30

Separate bedrooms. And separate films too.

Are they using the 10 year old to babysit your daughter while they shag?

This is seriously weird.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:45:14

No no no the adults should not ut these Chidren in that situation, totally wrong

ClippedPhoenix Wed 20-Mar-13 22:45:18

Im sure the little boy is lovely but I'd still go for separate rooms even with brothers and sisters. I can't understand why your ex can't see this?

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:46:20

Have had the film chat before too as she's had nightmares many times about them and zombies game s - she wakes terrified zombies are waiting to kill her :-(

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:46:23

Fims should be age appropriate and watched in the main family room

SuburbanRhonda Wed 20-Mar-13 22:46:25

Why don't you phone your children's services contact centre (anonymously) for advice? They would know whether a situation is potentially a CP issue or not.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:47:21

Unless these issues are addressed she either des nt go or you collect her before bedtime

QuickLookBusy Wed 20-Mar-13 22:49:20

YANBU

What are you going to do about this situation OP?

Surely if she's having nightmares about zombies killing her, you need to do something.

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:50:41

But surely if I stopped contact and it went to court he could just lie and say they have separate rooms and make me out to be a contact blocker? DD has selective mutism and would never in a million years speak to CAFCASS or anyone.

Can they not separate the bunk beds and get a screen or run a curtain across the room so it can be separated when she stays over?

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:53:06

I've spoken to him about the films and games - he says she doesn't have nightmares there (not much chance of that when it's only twice per month she stays!) And that I'm lying

blackeyedsusan Wed 20-Mar-13 22:54:41

hmm and what does ex think school are going to do when she goes and says the boys bits were sticking up?

it is going to be a lot more hassle than putting them in seperate rooms!!

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:54:45

No the bunk beds can't be separated. But there is a perfectly good bed in the other room that the boy could use.

blackeyedsusan Wed 20-Mar-13 22:55:26

x post ...

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 22:56:21

That's the thing - she has selective mutism so doesn't talk at school which makes it easy for him to say I'm lying.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 20-Mar-13 22:57:19

If I was a parent of either child I would not be comfortable with this at all,its not just about protecting from potential abuse but also the possible allegation of such a thing.

And respecting both children's right to personal respect.

If either were my child then my child would not be returning.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:58:05

Seriously princess you have to do something for your dd and this boys sake it's not right. Your dd best interests come first

QuickLookBusy Wed 20-Mar-13 22:58:10

You need to talk to someone and tell them what your dd has said.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 22:58:47

You cannot allow this to continue

christinarossetti Wed 20-Mar-13 22:59:31

YANBU at all. Your dd's father shouldn't be letting her watch films that are too old for her, not letting her share a bed with a 10 year old. Separate bunk beds if there was only one bedroom between them would be fair enough - the current arrangement isn't.

I'd agree that you need to put some boundaries in place with the sanction that dd won't be staying overnight unless they're respected.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 23:00:01

If he des not change the sleeping areangements I would stop dd going teir and get legal advice

christinarossetti Wed 20-Mar-13 23:00:56

Do you mind me asking how long your dd has had selective mutism for princess and what if any sort of support you and and she are receiving?

SuburbanRhonda Wed 20-Mar-13 23:02:23

As I posted above, talk to children's services. In my local authority there is a contact centre with a free phone number; you can phone anonymously and not give any personal details at all. They will have seen and heard every scenario going, and can give you sound and unbiased advice.

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 23:03:02

I completely agree that it must stop but I do feel he'll just lie and continue doing as he pleases. In which case what do I do when DD won't confirm what I've said and may even deny it if dad tells her she'd be stopped from seeing the boy.

bamboozled Wed 20-Mar-13 23:04:16

Not being unreasonable at all.
Just all wrong - and as for the movies - call me old fashioned but a 5 year old should only watch U films - not PGs...
What a nightmare for you..

SuburbanRhonda Wed 20-Mar-13 23:04:35

I can say hand on heart that in my role in family support in a primary school, if I was given this information I would be having both parents in to discuss my concerns, with the head teacher there as well.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 23:05:10

You have to take the situation in your hands and deal with it. Either sea rate bedrooms and age appropriate fims or she will not stay the night an you come and collect her

SuburbanRhonda Wed 20-Mar-13 23:07:07

Please, please, please say you will get in touch with some professionals in children's services. They are the experts.

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 23:07:59

I will speak to children's services, thank you.
DD has always had an issue with who she speaks to - there's only 5 people she speaks to. She went her entire time at nursery without talking to an adult once and now at primary will read words to teacher but doesn't speak to any adults or children. It's only this past fortnight the teacher has acknowledged there's an issue and the SENCO has become involved.

princessj29 Wed 20-Mar-13 23:10:58

But piglet - he'll promise separate bedrooms and films, DD will say he lied and then what do I do?

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 20-Mar-13 23:13:37

You wait until he does lie or ignore then you deal with it.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 23:13:51

I know it sounds far fetched but have you got a dictaphone or secret camera to record your conversations

SuburbanRhonda Wed 20-Mar-13 23:14:09

Record everything, both said and done, by your DD and her dad. Once school and other agencies get involved, he can't pull the wool over people's eyes as easily. He'll be telling you you're hysterical next.

ProphetOfDoom Wed 20-Mar-13 23:15:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 23:16:21

Record yur conversations with dd using secret reci
Or ding device. Like a camera in a teddy type thing

pookamoo Wed 20-Mar-13 23:17:35

I was about to suggest recording your conversations with your DD. Lots of mobile phones have voice recorders, she wouldn't even notice it was on.

I'm not sure whether it's ethical to record someone without their knowledge, but in the circumstances it would show that you had not been asking her leading questions and that she was just telling you what was going on.

YANBU, by the way. Good luck.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 23:17:56

You need to do this to protect your dd and this boy

zzzzz Wed 20-Mar-13 23:18:06

Video your dd telling you what happens, be very careful not to lead her when asking questions. Could she also tell one of the other people she will talk to.

pigletmania Wed 20-Mar-13 23:19:44

Good idea pooka moo I think in this situation might be an acception

steppemum Wed 20-Mar-13 23:21:31

I think it would help to collect evidence in some way, just in case he lies.

You could draw a picture of their flat and ask dd to draw in where everyone sleeps. Then she doesn't have to speak.
date it and write on the back exactly what you asked her to do (be careful not to ask a leading question)

SuburbanRhonda Wed 20-Mar-13 23:27:55

All this is quite difficult to do if you haven't done it before. I've seen experienced CPLOs ask leading questions without realising it, then your evidence is worthless. This is why I'm banging on about getting professional advice!

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 20-Mar-13 23:44:39

Do not question your dd and do not ask her to draw anything. If you do,you will come across as a hysterical fantasist that has put these ideas into her head anything to do with it will be worthless no matter what she says or draws.

And should something actually happen of a concerning or abusive nature to any of the kids nobody will believe you or dd.

You know that's the first thing your ex will loudly proclaim to anybody at all.

zzzzz Thu 21-Mar-13 05:35:21

I've been thinking about you this morning, my youngest has similar issues communicating outside the home. This is a safeguarding issue and though video is an excellent wSy of giving children who are SM a voice I think you may need some more focused advice on how to procede.

I think a solicitor would help you to see a path. I also think an organisation like nspc may have a phone line you could talk to someone on.

Please don't just hope for the best. This sounds very inappropriate for her.

conorsrockers Thu 21-Mar-13 05:56:44

Please don't leave this to chance. I was put in this situation as a child and it didn't end well. My family all thought the boy was so lovely and kind .... he probably was, but he was also a growing boy ....

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 06:25:54

Just to say, n case you don't know OP, that 10 year old boy's willies do often "stick up" in the morning when they need a pee- please don't automatically think something awful is happening. And do remember, he's 10.

Your dd certainly shouldn't be watching scary movies though. Or sharing a bed with anyone she doesn't want to.

littlewhitebag Thu 21-Mar-13 06:46:22

It's not a CP issue - the lad can't help having a stiffy in the morning! It is however inappropriate .

letseatgrandma Thu 21-Mar-13 07:12:01

Why is the girlfriend bringing her ten year old brother to her bonk fest? Where are his parents? I feel sorry for both children-it wouldn't take much for your dd to draw them both in bed together and ss will start asking questions. It's big fair on the poor boy either- I doubt he wants a witness to his morning glory!

You need to put a stop to this now.

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 07:41:18

It is not appropriate for both children and it is a safeguarding issue as both Chidren are vulnerable and are put in a situation that COULD turn abusive, or cause them to do things they do not understand. I would consult nspcc and an appropriate solicited nspcc might be able to advice you, this cannot continue. Also unlike most of her peers your dd has sn and is unable to speak up for herself you have to be her advocate as you are her mum and have her welfare at heart. Don't just do nothing

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 07:42:01

Cotact ss for advice

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 07:43:37

I do think people are over reacting just a bit.

littlewhitebag Thu 21-Mar-13 07:55:01

I think people are overreacting here. I am a SW working in child protection so have some knowledge about these matters. The girl has made no allegations other than she is sharing a room (not a bed) with a 10 year old and he had an erection in the morning (not unusual for boys). She has also watched films she found scary. These things are inappropriate but not child protection. It is up to the parents to sort this out. The girl should not be sharing with the boy. Until her dad and his partner can accept this then OP could stop her DD going. You could call SS for advice but i doubt that they would do anything further.

OneLieIn Thu 21-Mar-13 07:55:10

Talk to your ex. But also talk to your dd and tell her what you want her to do.

Buy her a pink sleeping bag specially for when she goes to dad's grin

littlewhitebag Thu 21-Mar-13 07:59:29

Btw - do not get your child to draw pictures or try to film/record what happens at her fathers. This will not bode well for you.

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 08:07:24

Like littlewhite says stop your child going unless this is sorted, the situation is not appropriate

Tabliope Thu 21-Mar-13 08:12:25

Haven't read whole thread so sorry if this has been said. Even if your DD's father thinks it's acceptable now what about in two years time when they are 12 and 7 or 4 years time when they are 14 and 9 - will he still think that appropriate? Buying a bunk bed was so short sighted. Kids will grow up fast and within a very short space of time it will not be appropriate for them to share the same room never mind the same bed, which it isn't now anyway. What was he thinking? Or his girlfriend for her DS's sake?

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 08:24:39

A 5 year old girl sharing a bed with a 10 year old boy and seeing his morning stiffy isn't a child protection issue?

confused

An old boyfriend of mine lost his "virginity" aged 9 with a 9 year old girl.

I don't know exactly what they were doing. But I would not want it to be done on my 5 year old.

megandraper Thu 21-Mar-13 08:30:27

It's absolutely wrong and your ex is being very unfair on the boy as well as on your DD - neither child should be placed in this position. The boy could be put in a position where he appears to have done something wrong or feels he has done something wrong. I think I would be as furious if someone else put my DSs being put in that position, as I would be at my DD being exposed to it.

littlewhitebag Thu 21-Mar-13 08:30:48

athinginyourlife the children are not sharing a bed - they have bunk beds. Very different. Also seeing a stiffy does not constitute child protection. Him trying to get her to touch it etc would be.

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 08:31:01

I'd stop allowing her to stay overnight. He either doesn't know how to protect her, or isn't interested in doing so.

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 08:31:55

Bloody hell, AThing, that's awful shock

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 08:37:50

littlewhitebag, OP says they usually share the bottom bunk, which is a double bed.

BertieBotts Thu 21-Mar-13 08:42:21

little No I think you've misunderstood. If they were in separate bunks I'd agree with you, but the OP says the bunk bed has a double on the bottom and the two children are sharing this double bed.

I do think 10 is the absolute cusp though, because it's not appropriate once he does start puberty (although I don't think erections are related to puberty - my 4 year old gets an erection in the morning) IF it was a short term arrangement, it would be fine. But the fact is there's a separate top bunk the boy could sleep in - why is he not sleeping here? And there is also another bed in a separate room - why on earth not give them their own rooms, then? This situation will become inappropriate in a few months/years if it is not now, so why not change the sleeping arrangements now anyway.

diavlo Thu 21-Mar-13 08:42:45

As the mother of a 10yr old boy I would be very pissed off at the assumption that he was some kind of sexual deviant! Boys, even babies, wake up with erections...it's biology for heavens sake!

havingamadmoment Thu 21-Mar-13 08:44:27

IF there were no other bedroom then they could minimize problems with separate beds/screens or something but if they actually have another bedroom then I just cant understand why they make them share?!

We have 4 girls and 1 boy. At the moment the boy shares with one of his sisters but when he is a little older (he has just turned 6 now) we will be separating him just for his own comfort no worries about anything being wrong with them sharing.

littlewhitebag Thu 21-Mar-13 08:45:06

Ok i see that now. I assumed she meant they shared the bunk bed - one top one bottom. Still not child protection - only child protection if something unlawful has happened. Still inappropriate though and i am sure the boy was embarrassed about her noticing his erection. They both need privacy to ensure nothing can be misconstrued.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 08:45:46

Also, littlewhitebag, what I've been posting all along, as I also work in CP, is that OP needs to seek professional advice. Round here children's services wouldn't get involved for some thing like this, but she could phone for advice - in my area it's the contact centre. Of course the parents should sort it out, but OP has stated clearly that dad is not up for discussing anything and simply doesn't see it as a problem. And as for posters saying it's normal for a boy to get a stiffy in the morning, of course it is, but should a 5-year old girl have to wake up next to it?

Sarahplane Thu 21-Mar-13 08:46:24

yanbu they should be in separate rooms.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 08:48:12

diavlo, as far as I know, no-one has suggested a 10 year old boy with a morning erection is a sexual deviant. The almost unanimous view is that both children are vulnerable here.

littlewhitebag Thu 21-Mar-13 08:55:04

suburbanrhonda i completely agree with you. Further back the thread i advised OP to call ss for advice. It can be so hard when one parent just won't listen to reason. Hopefully she will get it sorted out.

hippo123 Thu 21-Mar-13 08:57:29

Yanbu as there are 2 alternative options, the other room or the other bed. They are putting both your dd and this boy in a very vulnerable position. I don't wish to alarm you, and I'm not saying it as happened, but from what your dd has said I would be very alert to the possible signs of sexual abuse.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 09:02:10

hippo123, I don't think it would be helpful for OP to imagine the worse case scenario. OP needs to focus on the current situation, what she wants to change, and ways to do it. That's where the professional advice comes in. We can all worry ourselves into the grave if we're so inclined, but it doesn't help the children in this situation.

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 09:03:35

Why does child protection only kick in after something unlawful happens, littlewhitebag? It gives the lie to the word protection if it's purely retrospective?
And yes, Suburban, 10 year old's morning erections are absolutely normal, but why should any 5 year old have to wake up with it in their fecking face?

hackmum Thu 21-Mar-13 09:07:56

I agree with the general consensus, but I'm also puzzled by the arrangement. I've never heard of a bunk bed that has a double bed on the bottom. How is that supposed to work?

And what's going on in the father's mind? If you have two rooms, why wouldn't you give each child their own room? And if you had some reason for not doing that, why wouldn't you put one to sleep in the top bunk and one in the bottom? Why on earth is he making them sleep in the same bed? Doesn't that strike anyone else as peculiar?

valiumredhead Thu 21-Mar-13 09:08:05

Yet again I agree with seeker <sigh>

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 09:08:54

Floggingmolly, re your last sentence, I think you'll find that's almost word for word what I said, except not in her face, as the OP didn't say this.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 09:11:05

It's called a triple sleeper, hackmum.

Feminine Thu 21-Mar-13 09:11:37

Both children need protection.

flogg I doubt she woke up with it in her face.

Its very obvious in PJs with little boys.

He is 10.

I'd be much more concerned with the other things she has been subjected to.

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 09:11:44

I was actually agreeing with you, Suburban (with certain poetic licence, admittedly blush)

Tailtwister Thu 21-Mar-13 09:14:29

diavalo I see where you're coming from (as a mother to 2 boys), but I think people are saying that this situation is putting the boy in a vulnerable position too. From my perspective, the sleeping arrangements need to be addressed asap for the sake of both children.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 09:17:32

Oh, ok, flogging, didn't realise!

littlewhitebag Thu 21-Mar-13 09:22:56

floggingmolly The point is that child protection is something we all do and ss will be able to give op advice regarding this. Child protection teams generally investigate what has happened after allegations have been made.

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 10:05:15

Yes this situation is wrong, nether child should be put in a vulnerable position, it is not right. The adults involved op ex and his partner should know better and ut should be stopped. Whilst your dd is saying the situation is still happening her vista should be stopped or you collect before bedtime. I would seek advice from nspcc or ss on what to do

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 10:12:25

"diavlo, as far as I know, no-one has suggested a 10 year old boy with a morning erection is a sexual deviant."

No? Then why are people saying that they OP should contact social services because her dd is in danger of abuse?

issypiggle Thu 21-Mar-13 10:19:22

it's a simple solution that the kids have their own room, and you tell the x that dd will not be going over to stay the night till that happens.

my dd is 3 and i don't let her stay overnight with my x as he rents a room.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 10:20:07

"my dd is 3 and i don't let her stay overnight with my x as he rents a room."

Why not?

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 10:20:57

Yes there is the potential to abuse, you cannot say it definitely will not happen 100%. It is not fair on both children, they should not be sharing a bed end of!

issypiggle Thu 21-Mar-13 10:23:23

coz he has the one room, no room for a spare bed for her, and he's a fruit cake.

issypiggle Thu 21-Mar-13 10:23:46

oh and it's in a pub.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 10:27:55

Fair enough.

However, I do find the idea that a 10 year old boy cannot be trusted not to abuse a 5 year old girl appalling. My children have always enjoyed sharing a room on holiday, or if we have lots of visitors- there is a 5 year age difference. I can't believe that people would find this "inappropriate".

issypiggle Thu 21-Mar-13 10:39:32

theres nothing wrong with sharing a room, just a bed...

airforce1 Thu 21-Mar-13 10:39:52

Go and see your health visitor or go to the baby clinic for advice. She is only 5 somwill still come under their remit. It might help your cause if ex hears it from someone else.

airforce1 Thu 21-Mar-13 10:40:20

So will ........bloody ipad

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 10:40:29

Mine share a bed sometimes too. So call the social services.

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 10:44:33

That situation is nt appropriate and op is not happy so it has to change

airforce1 Thu 21-Mar-13 10:44:33

Blood siblings are one thing. The youger brother of ex's current girlfriend is another. My DS and DD share a bed on holiday sometimes if they have to. But they know, love and fight each other everyday.

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 10:45:35

They're not actually siblings, Seeker

QuickLookBusy Thu 21-Mar-13 10:46:53

There's nothing wrong with siblings sharing a bed, nothing at all.

I personally wouldn't be happy for my dd to share a bed with an ex's, girlfriend's son though.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 10:47:39

The OP is not happy so it has to change. Agreed. The films would be the deal breaker for me.

However.

I find the characterization of a 10 year old boy as a potential abuser deeply problematic.

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 10:48:03

Yes the boy is ex girlfriends brother not blood relative. Any what there comes a tim when it just isn't right whether it's biological brother or sister or not. Te by is approaching his teens

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 10:49:03

No I am not dying he is an abuser no, but this situation puts bth children in a vulnerable situation

airforce1 Thu 21-Mar-13 10:50:56

Yup. Seeker - but an earlier thread fom OP says that the 10 year old is uncomfortable with the situation too. So from his point of view, he has to share a bedroom with his older sister's current boyfriend's daughter who he doesn't really know. He's starting to get EMEs, poor love, and is feeling insecure so he dresses himself in a locked bathroom.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 10:51:43

Why are they in a vulnerable position if you are not saying he is a potential abuser? Oh, and I think you said earlier that you wouldn't allow this for brothers and sisters either. Certainly someone did....

QuickLookBusy Thu 21-Mar-13 10:51:48

Seeker, I also think the watching of inappropriate films is very worrying.

The OP has told the father that their 5 year old is having nightmares and he doesn't seem at all bothered. That says a lot about him as a Dadsad.

My dd wouldn't be staying over in these circumstances.

airforce1 Thu 21-Mar-13 10:53:22

Does anyone want THAT for their DS? it might be interesting to find out the opinion of the boy's mother. OP, don't meant to diss you, sorry if any offence, but 2 mums here might have the same concerns about their DCs.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 10:53:59

I agree- obviously this is not a situation that should continue. Because of the films. Because the boy wants his privacy. Not because the 5 year old is in danger of being abused.

airforce1 Thu 21-Mar-13 10:56:05

And what if the 5 year old wets the bed? Blood siblings are used to the fuss, the 10 year old would be v embarassed and feel awkward. OP, that might be a good tack to use - fill up DD on ribena just before she goes off to stAy.

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 10:57:33

Because it is seeker, situation can be misconstrued, the girl obviously is uncomfrtable telling her mum about it, and that she can see his bits, and he is becoming embarrassed and self conscious. Not right really

gotthemoononastick Thu 21-Mar-13 11:28:33

Please do not allow this to go on...I am old now and come from generations of extra -vigilant women.Do not know why myself ,but sleepovers and even games like hiding go seek in big old houses with mixed age groups were anathema to my grandmother and mother.I fully encourage the paranoid agenda as does my daughter now thank goodness.Regret is awful.

princessj29 Thu 21-Mar-13 12:05:58

Thanks for your replies. It does put them both in a vulnerable position, what if he accidentally touched her bottom then she said to me he's touching her bum etc. There's just no need to put either of them a situation where there could be problems. I'm going to speak to nspcc this afternoon for advice, email ex so there's a record I've asked for it to stop then if it hasn't after next contact he'll have to have day contact only and take me to court.

QuickLookBusy Thu 21-Mar-13 12:09:04

Good plan princess.

airforce1 Thu 21-Mar-13 12:10:38

And Childline - don't forget them.

zzzzz Thu 21-Mar-13 12:15:30

I think that's a good plan

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 12:17:16

"I find the characterization of a 10 year old boy as a potential abuser deeply problematic."

He is a potential abuser.

You can't surely be saying that it is impossible that a ten year old boy would abuse a younger child?

Some ten year olds are starting (very innocent) explorations of kissing, sexual display, touching.

As I said earlier, an old boyfriend of mine and a childhood friend of his thought they had sex when they were 9. What they did is not clear, but in involved genitals.

If the girl had been 5 years younger rather than a peer, what happened would have been abusive.

The disparity in size, strength, development and understanding would turn something innocent into something exploitative.

That's why both children are vulnerable here.

They are not siblings or cousins with a longstanding relationship.

Leaving them unsupervised together in a bed for hours is not on.

On the most basic level, presuming there is nothing sexual happening, it is not fair to ask a ten year old to have no privacy in front of a much younger, non-related child.

I was going to post to say text/email him about the bedroom situation so that when he replies you have proof, but have just seen you are going to do that. YANBU. It's not fair on your dc or the boy.

valiumredhead Thu 21-Mar-13 12:48:17

However, I do find the idea that a 10 year old boy cannot be trusted not to abuse a 5 year old girl appalling

Quite!

I often wonder if people who post about 'abusers' and 'puberty striking at any minute' actually have 10 year old boys or any experience of them at all for that matter...

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 12:49:59

I do agree that its innapropriate but find the statement that its abusive a bit of an over reaction, why do you think its abusive bunnies?

I would find it more concerning OP that your ex cant see its innapropriate really!

somewhereaclockisticking Thu 21-Mar-13 12:54:37

It's about the safety and provacy of both children. Of course the op is just concerned about her DD - her DD is her responsibility and the boy is the responsibilty of his mother who probably knows nothing about it as the boy is staying with his sister - maybe the reason he's with his sister is because his own mum doesn't want him around. You never know what is going on in some peoples' lives - but whatever reason there is no need to share rooms when there is a spare room - they don't need a bed - a futon or blow up mattress is fine although I'm sure the bunk beds could be taken apart and used as two single beds. The boy needs his privacy but is probably too scared to say anyting to his sister in case he's then not allowed to visit. I think DD should kick up such a fuss and tantrum that she simply refuses to share a room and then both kids will hopefully get the privacy they deserve.

Chandon Thu 21-Mar-13 13:01:12

Yes, agree with what seeker said here.

I have to add that I find it a bit hysterical to treat all men, including 10 year old boys, as potential rapists. As a mum of boys that view just depresses the hell out of me.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 13:07:18

Would you let a 5 year old share a bed with a 15 year old brother of her Dad's girlfriend?

I imagine most parents would not.

Why?

The vast, vast majority of 15 year old boys wouldn't dream of sexually abusing a little girl.

But some would. And you don't know who they are.

But the situation with a 10 year old is way more complicated.

Things a 10 year can do with his friends of his own age (and some 10 year olds are doing this stuff, although by no means all) such as showing genitals, open mouth kissing, dry humping etc would not be OK with a much smaller child.

But how is a 10 year old child supposed to understand that?

The reason this is so risky is that something could be done innocently that would be frightening to the smaller child. She could be coerced into doing things that upset her without any intention on his part to coerce.

It's putting him in a situation with a much younger child where he inadvertently does something that he later finds out was very wrong.

Nobody is saying the child is a predator.

Just a bigger, stronger, more mature child in bed alone all night with a very vulnerable little girl. Because her selective mutism does make her more vilulnerable.

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 13:14:24

Yes exactly rice ss it puts them both in a vulnerable situation. What if tey are lying in bed together and he turns over and his willy comes in contact with op dd body. What If then op dd tells her mum or teacher that she touched 'Toby's 'willy, what situation does that put 'toby' in. Good plan princess. I am a mum to a ds and dd and sadly this is the sign of the times and this day and age. This is a bad situation to put both children in and Visits should stop until the situation is rectified. I would stop visits at the moment to show your ex you are serious and can't be fobbed off

pigletmania Thu 21-Mar-13 13:15:30

Exactly athing I totally agree

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 13:15:57

"But how is a 10 year old child supposed to understand that?"

Because 10 year olds are not stupid.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 13:19:58

No, 10 year olds are not stupid.

But they are (mostly) prebuscent and don't tend to have a nuanced, sophisticated understanding of sexuality. To put it mildly.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Thu 21-Mar-13 13:21:01

I think the 10 yo is very unlikely to do anything - but it's especially unfair on him to have to change in the bathroom, apart from anything else. If there was nowhere else for one of them to sleep AND they were in separate bunkbeds, then fair enough, but this situation is just weird. Why on earth aren't they in different rooms? Why are they sharing the double bed when there's a perfectly good bunk?

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 13:22:05

But they know not to hurt a 5 year old.

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 13:27:06

You're determined to see no wrong in this, Seeker. When your dd was 5 years old, would you have done this?

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 13:28:29

Of course they know not to hurt a 5 year old.

But that only stops them from doing things they know will hurt a 5 year old.

There are lots of things he could do to her in bed that she could be traumatised by and he could think they were fine.

It's unlikely, but it's possible. And they both need to be protected from that.

OneLieIn Thu 21-Mar-13 13:32:31

As the mum of a 10 yr old boy, he and his mates are massively immature. They are becoming self aware, more in a "I'm embarrassed" way than anything else.

How would I feel about a 5 year old female relative (or similar) sharing a bed? I would be a bit uncomfortable with it, not because I think anything would happen, but because I just think everyone should have their own space and the message it sends out is clear.

When dd was aged 5 there would have been no way on earth I would have let her share a bed with a cousin or similar. A room yes, a bed no.

I thought I was hard to shock but this thread is really sickening me.

I have DC in (roughly) those age ranges. Sometimes they have shared a bed (mine & DH's actually) to watch a film in the evening. Sometimes they've fallen asleep there and we've let them sleep there rather than moving them. Sometimes I have gone into one of my sons rooms in the morning and found my DD has sneaked through and got into one of their beds. Sometimes my DD has seen one of her brothers 'willies' when they've been getting changed or having a bath or whenever. She doesn't take any notice - it's just her brothers 'bits'.

Silly old me has always found any of these things either cute or funny or heartwarming or all of the above. Does that make me unbelieveably stupid or just not sick and twisted?

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 13:34:26

No, I think it shouldn't happen- that the children should have privacy and I think the inappropriate film business is outrageous. That is more than enough for the OP to say she wants this stopped.

But I just object very strongly to the idea that the little girl is in danger of abuse, and that a 10 year old boy is going to sexually molest a 5 year old- and, for heavens sake - could abuse her without realizing what he was doing was abuse. I suspect some of you have never met a 10 year old.

BTW - I wouldn't be happy for my five year old to share a bed with a 10 year old boy who wasn't a sibling - mainly because they are both entitled to their own bed and their own space - not because I would be thinking the 10 year old could be an abuser.

valiumredhead Thu 21-Mar-13 13:41:16

No, I think it shouldn't happen- that the children should have privacy and I think the inappropriate film business is outrageous. That is more than enough for the OP to say she wants this stoppe.

But I just object very strongly to the idea that the little girl is in danger of abuse, and that a 10 year old boy is going to sexually molest a 5 year old- and, for heavens sake - could abuse her without realizing what he was doing was abuse. I suspect some of you have never met a 10 year old

Yeah, that ^

megandraper Thu 21-Mar-13 13:41:57

badtaste - this isn't a sibling, this is the dad's girlfriend's brother. Would you be happy for your 5 year old to share a bed with a relative's girlfriends' 10 year old brother? Can't really believe anyone would. Especially if the child doesn't want to!

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 13:43:26

badtaste - the things you describe are nothing like what is happening in the OP.

Seeing your brother's willy as part of normal family life is not equivalent to having to share a bed on a regular basis with a ten year old boy that is not a part of your family.

"But I just object very strongly to the idea that the little girl is in danger of abuse, and that a 10 year old boy is going to sexually molest a 5 year old"

Nobody said he was going to.

Just that it isn't beyond the bounds of possibility that he might.

Do you really think it is an impossibility that this could happen?

That in the history of the world no 10 year old has ever acted in an inappropriate sexual fashion towards a younger child behind closed doors?

confused

Nobody is saying your son would do this.

No I wouldn't want that, but I would never think that the 10 year old boy could be an abuser without any reason to suspect him whatsoever. I would just be very pissed off that her dad couldn't be bothered to get a bed of her own for her to sleep in and would tell him he needs to sort one out before she could stay.

Reply was to Bedhopper btw

TooExtraImmatureCheddar Thu 21-Mar-13 13:50:20

Badtaste, you said yourself that you wouldn't be happy with them sharing a bed. All the discussion about potential abuse has made it clear that this is a worst case scenario - which doesn't mean it's impossible. Yes, it's unlikely, but it could happen. I have an 11 yo brother and he is very immature (bless him), so I do know what 10 yo boys are like and you're right, it's very unlikely they would do anything sexual whatsover, much less to a 5 yo, but the point being made is that it's not normal to expect a 10 yo boy and a 5 yo girl to share a bed, particularly as they are not related and it's not an occasional thing but every time they stay.

OP, you said there are only about 5 people who your DD will talk to. Is this boy one of them?

Feminine Thu 21-Mar-13 13:50:32

I know that we are not saying he might

But I'd really love to know what those here (minus sons of that age) think they do?

they are really very. very much kids.

If they were 10 &15 then I'd understand slightly better.
It needs to be sorted ,for the future though...surely?

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 13:50:34

There is a world of difference between siblings sharing and what OP is describing. I amazed you don't see that, badtasteflump. Add to this the fact the OP's DD is unable to voice her worries and you can surely see there is no comparison.

OP has accepted that she needs to talk to professionals about this. No-one is suggesting the 10-year-old is an abuser. Just that both children are very vulnerable.

seeker I'm sure I'm not the only poster who actually works with 10-year-olds, so I expect quite a few of us have met one.

Yes athing I see your point -what has got me raging is the suggestion of social services and child protection being brought in to this situation where nothing untoward has happened and probably wouldn't even if left alone. But I agree that the OP should stop her DD staying overnight until she is given a bed of her own - because she is entitled to her own space.

Why do CP need to be brought in when the parents just need to sort it out?

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 13:53:30

Of course I can't say that no 10 year old boy has ever abused a 5 year old girl. But that this is the biggest concern most ppl on this thread seem to have is very depressing. And people were advocating questioning the child about it, and involving social services and all sorts.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 13:55:20

This is the problem with longer threads - further back, I suggested OP phone her local children's services contact centre for advice. I also said that where I work, children's services wouldn't get involved because it wouldn't meet their threshold for intervention. OP said she would seek professional advice and that is all it would be.

And as for the parents sorting it out, also further back in the thread, OP said her ex was unwilling to discuss it and does not even see there is an issue.

HopingItllBeOK Thu 21-Mar-13 13:56:46

Princess you said your daughter only speaks to 5 people. Does that include her Dad, his girlfriend and the brother, or is she sharing a bed with someone that her SM leaves her unable to communicate with? So if the film was scaring her, she couldn't say that she didn't like it and please turn it off?

Might it be worth taking that approach with your ex, that the film choice is giving her nightmares but her SM issues means she can't vocalise that, so it would be best if they were in separate rooms so they could each choose their own film to watch?

THERhubarb Thu 21-Mar-13 13:58:23

Yeah yeah yeah, all boys and men are potential abusers and all girls and women therefore are manipulative bullies. Why not go the whole hog for the stereotypes eh?

I read page 1. Yes there were comments that implied the 10yr boy was a potential abuser with one poster saying it was a child protection issue.

No doubt there are stories from both sides about how someone was abused in similar circumstances and other stories about how children of all ages snuggle up perfectly happy and innocently every night.

The boy is NOT related at all, in any way, to the girl.
They have a spare room.
They have a spare bed.

Regardless of stupid and pointless stereotyping and tragic experiences related by all - this boy has a perfectly decent bed of his own and could have a perfectly decent room of his own. He is not related to the girl and so under the circumstances he should not have to sleep in the same bed as her.

I understand he might want to and so might she. I used to call my younger brother into my bed when I was 12 and he was 9 because he was cuddly and warmed the bed up. My experience does not relate to this one however as we don't know either of these two children. We know nothing about the adults involved or the set up, we only know what we've been told in a couple of posts from one person's perspective.

I suggest the OP has a friendly chat with both the dad AND his girlfriend. She can then explain her feelings and ask them to explain theirs. Her worries are justifiable as this is her daughter after all and she doesn't know this boy. Some 10 year olds are lovely and innocent and playful and others (I've worked in a primary school) are sexually inappropriate, aggressive, stubborn and vile.

The mother needs to stop arsing around on Mumsnet and take control of this situation. She's had more than enough advice now. She isn't being unreasonable to have concerns and the father is being unreasonable if he refuses to acknowledge those concerns.

The girlfriend will be protective over her brother of course and the father wants to please the girlfriend, but this little girl and the little boy need their own space and should not put in a situation that causes anxiety and worry to others. Especially if that situation is an unnecessary one.

Ok so this is a contact issue rather than a CP issue then, surely?

Sorry I keep replying to posts way back - slow typing blush

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 14:01:17

I think the reason people "arse around" on Mumsnet (you and me included) is when they can't resolve a situation by themselves and feel they would benefit from some objective views.

THERhubarb Thu 21-Mar-13 14:03:23

If the father refuses to chat then she is well within her rights to stop overnight stays.

If the mother is worried about the situation she is well within her rights to stop visitations until those worries are addressed. If the father wants that to happen then fair enough.

I really don't understand women who bleat "oh he won't listen!" rather pathetically. When it comes to your kids, you bloody well make them listen. If not then they have to face the consequences.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 14:04:28

THERhubarb, why are you so angry?

What THERhubarb says - with bells on.

THERhubarb Thu 21-Mar-13 14:06:37

Suburban - I think she's got a bellyfull of views now. I haven't read all the thread but has she come back on to fan the flames? To tell other snippets of how the father doesn't listen to her and how her dd isn't happy, etc?

Apparently she's said she will get professional advice. Shame. My advice would have been to stop overnight stays until the father and girlfriend agree to communicate because these issues will come up again and again and if she has to go to the professionals each time, it's going to be a right pain in the arse and all communication will eventually breakdown.

Professionals should be a last resort really.

But hey ho.

THERhubarb Thu 21-Mar-13 14:08:10

I love that - when people go "why are you so angry?" "Do you have issues?"

Nah mate, I'm just being honest and giving my views. It's called contributing to a thread. This is AIBU isn't it?

Feel free to psycho-analyse me however if it makes you feel better smile

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 16:00:12

I asked why you were so angry because your last sentence was very - well, angry! Not qualified as a psychotherapist, so would never assume to do that.

I didn't suggest to OP that she seeks professional advice every time, just this time, and as a response to her saying her ex refused to discuss this rationally.

Domjolly Thu 21-Mar-13 16:03:59

So its not the girlfriends boy confused its her brother ok so you are right espically if there is a spare room also why are there other kids there is your oh not supposed o be sepending time with yur daughter most likey they are getting him when she is there to keep your dd busy so he dont have to do much with her

I with you op on this one

Domjolly Thu 21-Mar-13 16:06:34

badtasteflump but its not her brother, not her step brother not even her cousin

I wouldnt be happy at all and we are also not sure how long the ex and this women have been togethr for them to be allowing the dd to bevaome so familer with the gf relatives

gilly86 Thu 21-Mar-13 16:09:55

Wooooaaahh

YANBU

AT ALL.

digerd Thu 21-Mar-13 16:11:12

Oh dear. Never had boys but did have a DH and know about the morning hormonal erection. Didn't know 10 year-old boys had it though and teenagers wet dreams.

Bit concerned how a 5 year-old would notice it .

It is not appropriate OP and I would be having a word with her dad.

valiumredhead Thu 21-Mar-13 16:14:42

Boys can have errections from when they are babes in arms.

Mumsyblouse Thu 21-Mar-13 16:27:37

You don't have to impute that all 10 year old boys are 'potential abusers' to think this is a really bad idea. The fact is you don't know this child, so you don't know what kind of 10 year old he is, and in general we have fairly strong social taboos about non-related not the same age children sharing beds. I wouldn't want my dd's sharing a bed with a boy I didn't know anywhere, at a sleepover, or in this situation.

One of the fairly obvious reasons that we don't tend to bedshare with opposite sex/not related children (especially older) is precisely because of the embarassment factor and potential for misunderstanding. Your dd has already mentioned the pointy pyjamas, what if she rolled over in the night and it was pointing on her- why put either him or her in situations which could be misinterpreted or embarassing at best (if he's not embarassed now, he soon will be age 11/12). Or, as me and my friends did at that age, play 'mummies and daddies' - with the age difference this would be considered abusive.

Just don't let her go there unless she sleeps in her own bed.

THERhubarb Thu 21-Mar-13 16:34:25

Rhonda, if you think that sounds angry you should see me in full PMT mode. Not a pretty sight I can assure you. I usually deal with all utility companies, banks, etc at this time of the month as I find them much more co-operative for some reason wink

Every boy is different. Some are very immature and some are very mature. We don't know this boy so all of this is speculation.

I have a 9yr son myself who is on the immature end of the spectrum. However in my primary school years I once came across two 10yr olds who were re-enacting homosexual sex. They were even making 'orgasm' faces. I'd like to say that they didn't know what they were doing but they did.

As we don't know this boy it's rather pointless to speculate on how sexually mature he may or may not be. Having an morning erection means nothing. However it is inappropriate to put another child in there as it can make him feel very awkward. This isn't his sister after all or any relation of his whatsoever. I wonder how his parents would feel about it?

I think every parent is paranoid about abuse and it's interesting to note that we have a guest speaker, Diane Abbot, on the topic of pornography and children. It's a sad fact that studies reveal that many young boys have seen pornographic content online, that more girls are being sexually bullied and that porn is slowly seeping into everyday life with our children exposed to more and more inappropriate content.

It's no wonder we are paranoid. Those concerns are typical and normal and it is possible to voice them without having people call for social services to be involved. There is a thing called common sense which can be used.

Someone (probably not you Rhonda) mentioned that the OP was seeking professional advice and that's a sad state of affairs when the professionals have to mediate over every disagreement between separated parents. Not that it's all her fault but I do wonder if she tried every avenue before calling them? The father could be forced to communicate if his daughter was stopped from sleeping overnight. I'm sure he would do the same if the boot were on the other foot.

Good luck OP. Be decisive, use some common sense and get it sorted before it drags on and on.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 16:50:14

Let me know next time you've got PMT, THERhubarb and I'll get you to talk to my bank manager for me!

I think where the confusion has arisen is where I've suggested OP contacts children's services for advice. She knew she felt uneasy and wasn't sure what to do. Her ex wouldn't discuss it. She was worried he would agree to something but not honour that in practice.

So I suggested she phoned whatever equivalent she had in her area to the contact centre we have in our area. You can phone anonymously and just get advice, not mediation or any other kind of involvement. Just advice. It would be nice if we were all able to use the right amount of common sense to resolve every problem. But that's not always possible, for all sorts of reasons.

My concern about her taking matters into her own hands with regard to contact between her DD and dad is that this may label her as uncooperative and dad may take advantage of that. Then things could get acrimonious and go downhill very fast. Professionals could advise her about whether she is over-reacting (don't think so!) and how best to proceed.

THERhubarb Thu 21-Mar-13 17:12:09

Fair enough Rhonda. No harm in asking for advice. It already sounds quite acrimonious if he refuses to talk to her over issues relating to their daughter and I'm sure if it came down to it, he knows that putting his daughter in the same bed as an related boy is not on and could cause a whole load of trouble in custody wars.

I think the OP needs to wait for her own PMT day and then see the idiotic clot face to face.

By the way, I charge for dealing with bank managers/utility companies/sales people/unreasonable partners, etc. Just PM me for my prices wink
(I not only reversed our overdraft charges but got £25 compensation and a telephone apology from our bank - result!)

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 17:17:35

Actually, THERhubarb, maybe I could just wind you up and point you in the direction of my ex-boss ...

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 17:20:52

Area the non boy owners on here confused about what an erection means? BAby boys get them. Toddlers- to their own huge amusement get them. Most boys wake up with one and all it means is their need the loo.

Domjolly Thu 21-Mar-13 17:28:53

Also they are aware they are putting the boy at risk god forbid there was ever a misunderstanding i sure he would straight away to be blamed and the daugter it would likey result in your oh not being able to have her over night people thinking bad of this boy op i am not saying your daughter would lie on this boy but misunderstandings do happen and this is more likey when they are sleeping in the same room when un related and there is spare bed and room

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 17:29:33

Bloody hell.

They are NOT sharing a bed, they are sharing a bunk bed, albeit they usually (apparently) share the double at the bottom - probably because the 5yo doesn't like and/or shouldn't be sleeping high up and the 10yo's feet hurt going up the ladder (they're often a bit shit like that, bunk beds). Or maybe the TV is difficult to see from the top bunk. Who knows?

Boys get stiffies. They pretty much always have one of a morning, pre-wee, from babyhood. The 5yo has clearly never witnessed this before (and why would she, assuming she never spends time with brothers/cousins in similar circs) so it was of note to her.

The situation is not great because both children are being put in a vulnerable position. Given some of the responses on this thread, the most vulnerable is the 10yo.

FWIW my 12yo son regularly shares a room with his much younger cousins and the children of friends (both boys and girls). I am bloody horrified at some of the responses here.

And good grief, whilst Transformers might be scary for a 5yo WTF do you mean OP when you express concerns that it's "sexy"?

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 17:30:01

So leave the erection out of the equation completely, Seeker. (I agree it means nothing in itself, and is only an issue because the 5 year old is aware and has commented on it).
Why should a 5 year old girl be forced to share a 10 year old boy's bed against her will?

Domjolly Thu 21-Mar-13 17:33:21

JenaiMorris yes there "cousins" but hes not her cousin is he hes not related i have a 13 year old son and a spare room i would not get my 5 year old nice to share with him for what reason i have a spare room

He might want to share with his 10 year old cousin but again this girl and the boy are not related i dont tink he will harm her but i dont understand why they are sharing and again i think you expose the boy to misunderstanding espiaclly as the new squeese and the op are not even on speaking terms

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 17:44:20

She shouldn't be "forced to share a bed against her will" obviously. Is she being? Anyway, as I've said repeatedly, the inappropriate films would be a deal breaker for me.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 17:47:57

I've missed the bit where the 5yo is being "forced to share a bed against her will".

At what point has the OP's daughter expressed this?

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 17:59:31

JenaiMorris, read the OP before you state categorically "they are NOT sharing a bed". The OP says they usually share the bottom bunk, which is a double, so why would you say "apparently"?

CheerfulYank Thu 21-Mar-13 18:00:46

Transformers is sexy in that they talk about masturbation, "ho's", mating, "can I ride you home"...no way is my 5 year old watching that.

OP yanbu. There is no reason for them to share a room, much less a bed.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 18:01:45

seeker, I think the issue of boys' morning erections has already been extensively discussed further back in the thread. I don't think any confusion still remains, though it was obviously enough of a surprise to the OP's DD for her to mention it to her mum.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 18:02:39

The "apparently" was in reference to the "usually". We don't know how often this has happened - it might just have been a few times but they're the ones that stick in the daughter's (and her mother's) mind.

I also mentioned the most obvious reasons why this might be so - neither likes the top bunk, and/or you can't see the TV from it.

thebody Thu 21-Mar-13 18:02:46

No it's inappropriate and if she mentioned this to me with her observations on his bits pointing up I am afraid I would have to report this to the safeguarding coordinator as a possible child protection issue. I work in a school.

Your dh and his gf must be daft.

You need to put a stop to this.

It's not saying anything will or has been inappropriate, but its a stupid action that could be misconstrued.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 18:03:00

She shouldn't be watching the films. And if they want privacy they should have it. But please don't make the 10 year old boy out to be a potential abuser.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 18:05:13

"seeker, I think the issue of boys' morning erections has already been extensively discussed further back in the thread."

Obviously not- it appears to be remaining a theme.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 18:08:18

The films are not great, no. Having said that my son watched Transformers years ago and the sexual reference went right over his head (much in the same way as the sexual references in Grease did for people of my generation).

Having said that the very first Transformers DVDs he watched (obsessively too) were the old 80s cartoons! I don't imagine that those are what the 10yo is watching, but you never know...

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 18:10:29

seeker, again, further back in the thread I mentioned that the consensus seems to be that both children are vulnerable. I'm not aware that anyone has posted that the boy is a potential abuser.

JenaiMorris, your use of "apparently" suggests you don't believe the OP.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 18:13:22

It's not that I think the OP is lying, nor the daughter for that matter. But from a 5yo (or indeed a 12yo) the words 'always' or 'usually' need sometimes to be taken with a pinch of salt. It's all about perception. They often mean "most recently".

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 18:13:47

So in what way is the boy "vulnerable"?

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 18:14:07

Saying he's a potential abuser is very little different from saying nothing.

Saying he's not a potential abuser is making a pretty bold claim though.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 18:16:13

"Saying he's a potential abuser is very little different from saying nothing."

Wow. Just..........wow.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 18:22:43

So- at what age does he start being a potential abuser? 5? 6?

And what other precautions should be taken? Never leaving them alone together? How do you know he's not going to come out of his room at night? Potentially!he could.....so, what? lock him in?

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 18:26:11

He's only vulnerable as long as people demonise boys. Which has happened on this thread.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 18:35:34

It's like saying someone is a potential murderer.

Everyone is.

Saying that someone could potentially do something isn't saying a lot.

As for the age at which a child becomes capable of abusing another child? I don't know, TBH.

But I would say it is definitely possible by ten.

When does a child become a potential bully? I would say around the same age.

letseatgrandma Thu 21-Mar-13 18:45:24

I still want to know why the girlfriend is bringing her brother to her boyfriend's house to regularly sleepover-that's really bizarre quote frankly. Where is his mum?

OP?

zwischenzug Thu 21-Mar-13 19:03:19

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SuburbanRhonda Thu 21-Mar-13 19:04:49

The boy is vulnerable for this reason. Just imagine the girl tells an adult in school that she was in bed with a big boy and when he woke up there was something poking out in his pyjamas. She also says they watch grown-up films and she doesn't like them. This would have to be reported to the CPLO in school as a cause for concern, and parents would be asked to come in to discuss it. Not because of the erection, but because she had been put to sleep in a bed with a 10-year-old boy for no apparent reason. All the boy has done is sleep where his sister and her boyfriend have told him to, and woken up with an erection just like he has done before. Suddenly people are asking him questions.

The adults who have told him it's perfectly ok for him to sleep in the same bed as a 5-year-old girl when there are two other beds he could sleep in, have put him in this position and have made him vulnerable.

Nobody has demonised the boy. People are just being realistic about what children sometimes disclose, especially in school, and what the legal responsibilities are of the child protection officers in school when that happens.

BewitchedBotheredandBewildered Thu 21-Mar-13 19:09:42

At the beginning of this thread almost everyone was expressing concern for the vulnerability of both children, not just the 5 year old girl.

The only reason CP and SS were mentioned was for advice as the girl's father would not accept that there was a potential problem, either with the films or the bed sharing.

I would like to say that I would be equally concerned if the 10 year old was a girl and the 5 year old was a boy. There is too much opportunity for tickling, cuddling, romping turning into something inappropriate. That could be very gentle and not coercive and, lets face it, might feel nice for both of them.

And I have male and female children who are now adults, and I still know some 10 and 5 year olds of both sexes.

OP YANBU, and I wish you the very best of luck.

letseatgrandma Thu 21-Mar-13 19:18:36

I feel sorry for the little boy here. I have a ten year old boy and a four year old girl and much as they love each other-he wouldn't want to share a bed with her!

OP has never said the boy has been inappropriate and has suggested he's as unhappy about sharing a bed as she is. He is opening himself up to all sorts of allegations and questions though and that's not fair on anyone.

I wouldn't be letting her go until your ex could guarantee they'd be in separate rooms. Send her with a portable DVD player and her own film. Speak to someone for advice.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 19:42:14

Jeeeeezus zwischenzug, you had me apoplectic for a moment.

bamboozled Thu 21-Mar-13 19:47:06

I'm presuming zwichenzug is a troll?

Samu2 Thu 21-Mar-13 19:52:09

I am presuming zwichenzug is being sarcastic.

I also find this thread very sad.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 19:58:19

Not a troll. Sarcastic. But given the thread, not very.

I will obviously have to rethink our camping plans for the summer- my 17 and 12 year old can't be allowed to share a tent.

princessj29 Thu 21-Mar-13 20:02:39

OP back.
I emailed ex my concerns and also emailed the nspcc to see if they agree it's inappropriate and grounds for stopping contact if he doesn't prevent it from happening. They watch the film on a projector on the wall so it. Could be seen from top bunk. DD specifically asked for a cabin bed as she has one here but he got the triple bunk bed instead. She likes sleeping on the top but personally I think it's unsafe as she occasionally sleepwalks (her bed here has a slide so is quick easy and safe to get out of). She hasn't said she doesn't like sharing with the boy, just that she struggles to sleep as he stays up very late playing games on the iPad. No idea why the brother spends so much time there rather than with his parents but think his dad helped assemble the bunk bed so they're aware of the sleeping arrangements. Can just imagine the poor boy getting teased incessantly if he tells his friends they share a bed.

b4bunnies Thu 21-Mar-13 20:08:14

you are all so keen on being politically correct that you would put a child at risk. well done, you. enjoy.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 20:09:49

He wouldn't be teased, no.

Would a slide really make that much difference, safety-wise, to a sleepwalker?

The issue here is that the boy is keeping the younger girl awake. Not that he's a threat.

The girlfriend must be quite young to have a 10yo brother. I guess his sister helps their parents out here and there so they can work or go or together; I wouldn't read too much into it.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 20:12:28

No, as I said, I have learned my lesson from this thread- my two will never share a tent again. Now, should I lock my son in his room so he won't be tempted to abuse his sister, or lock my daughter in hers so she cant't tempt him with her feminine wiles?

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 20:12:49

PC gorn mad, b4bunnies. hmm

princessj29 Thu 21-Mar-13 20:15:28

Yes because the slide has sides so she can't fall. A complicated (because it goes over double bed) ladder is much more difficult to navigate. He already gets teased by his friends for playing with her, so if they knew they shared a bed it would make it worse.

princessj29 Thu 21-Mar-13 20:17:37

Seeker, you are beyond unhelpful and your pointless rantings really aren't adding to the thread.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 20:20:23

Fair enough, re the sides.

Pretty crap that he gets teased for playing with a 5yo though. IME older children wouldn't bat an eyelid at a contemporary playing the big bro role to a younger child. Thinking of school, the Y6s relished being buddies to reception pupils, for example.

bamboozled Thu 21-Mar-13 20:23:16

It's just not appropriate to put 2 children who are not siblings or cousins or naturally friends to sleep in the same bed, with different bedtimes, interests. The sarcasm is a bit revolting - and very unhelpful. Children are ch

bamboozled Thu 21-Mar-13 20:29:52

Children and need to be protected from all this stuff, both the 10 yr old and the 5 year old. The OP asked if she was being unreasonable in feeling uncomfortable about her daughter sharing a bed with a boy 5 years older, who she doesn't know and whose mother she doesn't know. It's pretty crappy to flame her for going with her entirely normal motherly instinct.. She didn't come up with potential abuser lines etc, ratherthat she didn't like the situation. It's very hard to send your 5 year dd old to sleep somewhere else, when you don't get on with her father when you parent in the same style, much harder when you have concerns about their welfare... So if you are smug and married thinking its like a jolly sleepover - its not, it is totally out of your control and pretty unpleasant

SneezingwakestheJesus Thu 21-Mar-13 20:34:11

Seeker, you do realise that the two children in the OP, unlike your two, are not related, right? So banging on about how you best not let your 17 and 12 year old makes no sense in this context.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 20:37:31

"No, as I said, I have learned my lesson from this thread- my two will never share a tent again."

Which of your children is a stranger to you?

Because if you've known them both all their lives and they have always known each other, it's not really the same, is it?

Getting personally affronted by the idea that there are 10 year olds who do bad things is a bit ridiculous.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 20:38:49

They are not pointless rantings. There are people on this thread saying that 10 year old boys cannot be trusted not to abuse 5 year old girls. Somebody even said that siblings shouldn't share a room, ffs.

I agree absolutely about the films. I agree absolutely that your dd shouldn't share a room with anybody she doesn't want to, and she shouldn't be kept awake by an older child's games.

But I can't bear the way people are thinking about boys- all that stuff about not knowing what's appropriate, not knowing how to look after a little girl.

princessj29 Thu 21-Mar-13 20:59:27

That isn't what people have said - they've said something could inadvertently be misconstrued which could cause issues for both children.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 21:06:42

"There are people on this thread saying that 10 year old boys cannot be trusted not to abuse 5 year old girls."

There are people on this thread saying that some 10 year old boys can't be trusted not to hurt 5 year old girls.

I can't believe you genuinely think otherwise.

This boy is a stranger to the OP. He is not well known to her ex or her daughter.

So of course she can't trust him.

That doesn't mean he's not trustworthy.

Or that he's not a wonderful kid.

Just that it's normal to worry about your 5 year old kid sharing a bed with a ten year old boy she doesn't know well.

Most parents would worry about the child spending all night alone in bed with a much older child they didn't know well, regardless of gender.

Kids can be really horrible to one another.

And saying that does not imply that all children are horrible to all other children and need to be kept in isolation.

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 21:10:27

There are loads of good reasons for not leaving a 5 year old alone with a 10 year old you don't know. I just find it extraordinary that the possibility of sexual abuse is the one in the forefront of people's minds.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 21:14:35

Exactly, seeker.

b4bunnies Thu 21-Mar-13 21:15:35

perhaps the op referring to 'his bits sticking up' had something to do with that? or maybe actually knowing some ten year old boys?

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 21:19:49

But those of us who know 10 year old boys have explained the "bits sticking up" thing. That's what willies do in the morning. You sound as if you think there is something sinister about it......

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 21:21:15

"perhaps the op referring to 'his bits sticking up' had something to do with that? or maybe actually knowing some ten year old boys?"

Did you actually say that last bit- or did I imagine it....? Please tell me I imagined it!

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 21:23:44

Its not appropriate, it is a safeguarding concern and that is not because a 10 year old boy can't be trusted to not harm a 5 year old girl. It is a concern due to unclear boundaries and vulnerabilities.

Do not question film record or ask your dd to film anything as that to would be a massive concern if you took your concerns to anyone professional.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 21:23:56

Sexual abuse is the forefront of people's minds in this circumstance because the children are in bed together.

That might not be reasonable, but people associate beds and sleeping together with sexual activity.

If the girl was being left alone for hours with a much older child during the day, and not in bed, people's would have seen different risks.

thebody Thu 21-Mar-13 21:25:05

If you work with children then you are obliged to listen to children. That's enshrined by the children's act and the every child matters guidelines.

If a 5 year old child in my class mentioned the concerns of the op's 5 year old then it would b reported and investigated.

Sorry if some think this is ott but that's how it is now.

The children aren't siblings so banging on about what you would do with your kids or siblings sharing bedrooms is all bollocks to be honest.

We are where we are now and that's that.

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 21:26:35

Because different risks would be relevant that is a silly comment, in my opinion, people are concerned about sexual abuse also because in homes and families with unclear boundaries, sexual abuse is far more likely to happen.

JenaiMorris Thu 21-Mar-13 21:31:39

You didn't imagine it, seeker. Unless I imagined it too.

thebody it's interesting to hear a professional's view on this. It seems reasonable to me that someone might seek advice from the primary child protection person in a school, having concerns. What would happen next?

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 21:32:17

Seeker, is this hitting a nerve or something? You've like a bloody dog with a bone hmm

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 21:39:32

A nerve? Well, I am the parent of a boy.......Is that what you mean?

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 21:43:32

I'm the parent of two boys, and that's not what I mean. You've made your point, such as it is, over and over on the thread and show no signs of stopping. People all have different opinions and that's ok, you know?

crashdoll Thu 21-Mar-13 21:45:34

I am gobsmacked at some of these posts, especially AThing. I wonder if you'd say the same if it was a 10 year old girl and a 5 year old boy but I doubt it. What a vile way of thinking - "everyone has the potential of being an abuser". I wish I could be really rude but I won't. All I will say is you either have experienced something that has messed up your thinking or you genuinely have no clue.

crashdoll Thu 21-Mar-13 21:46:38

Anyway, OP I hope you've found some advice on this thread and a way to move forward. Not sure if anyone has suggested it already but the NSPCC give great advice.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 21:52:32

flogginmolly what are you implying by "hitting a nerve" confused

I dont think seeker is like a "dog with a bone" actually - just expressing an opinion to counteract all the hysteria here about boys.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 21:54:06

crashdoll thats a very good point actually - if the genders were the other way around I wonder if we would have seen all the posts about potential abuse.

thebody Thu 21-Mar-13 22:00:20

Yes it could be seen as 'a vile way of thinking' or it could be seen as listening to a child's concern.

All relative. I have 2 lads and 2 girls btw so the bashing boys crap is well just stupid really and who does?? No one really do they?

Vanessa George, rosemary west, women do abuse as well. Not just men

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 22:01:52

Don't you people understand the meaning of the word "potential"?

It doesn't mean actual, or likely, or probable.

crashdoll Thu 21-Mar-13 22:02:49

There is nothing wrong with listening to a child's concern. I did not say that! I said it is vile to label all people as potential sexual abusers. You have no idea what some people might have been subjected it and how upsetting it is to hear that from someone pushing their own agenda. sad

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 22:36:55

I'm not implying anything; just making the point that she's made her point many, many times now - quite over bearing really. Does endless repetition ever really change someone elses's mind?

seeker Thu 21-Mar-13 22:49:18

"Don't you people understand the meaning of the word "potential"?

It doesn't mean actual, or likely, or probable."

So whqt does it mean? I could say I am a potential prime minister, because an am a political person, or a potential supermodel, because I am a female. . Both would be stupid things to say.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 22:54:33

"Don't you people understand the meaning of the word "potential"?

So by that reckoning are we all "potential" abusers just because we are human? Dont get this at all, and certainly dont agree with it.

thebody Thu 21-Mar-13 22:59:50

Crash, really no one normal does label any group as abusers? No one who works with children in a professional capacity do anyway .

Seeker yes that's what child protection is all about! Potential and risk! Most people understand this. You are not saying anything new here chik!

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:05:43

This is all rubbish. What the OP describes concerns her enough and many others on this thread. Not because they are hysterical or its a boy slaying thing. It is about boundaries no matter matter what gender, as I previously said, in families and homes where boundaries are unclear or undefined abuse is far more likely to occur.

Wether that be sexual, physical, emotional or whatever and OP has in her opening and subsequent posts described a home where boundaries are unclear and her dds ability to communicate her needs, wants, desires, concerns, likes and dislikes are limited, then this child is vulnerable.

As is the 10 year old. Because the fact a 10 year old is happy to share a bed with a 5 year old child displays enough about unclear boundaries. Either that or they are forced into it and that is of equal concerns.

What happens in your own homes is fine by your own informed standards and levels of supervision and boundaries between siblings. But this is not the case in what OP describes. The circumstances and concerns are very different and very significant. Because of these unclear boundaries and levels of trust.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 23:06:21

I'm beyond baffled at recent reactions to what I have written.

thebody Thu 21-Mar-13 23:06:45

Shesariver guessing u don't work in child protection?

Totally get your disgust but your attitude of no can't believe.... is an abusers allows abusers to flourish, see jimmy saville.

To keep kids safe its really important to say yes anyone can be an abusers!
It's real life not mumsnet fluffy bunnies life... Very sad reality and shocking.

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:11:23

And yes we all do have the potential to be abusers in the correct circumstances that would influence, teach or increase abusive behaviour.

apostropheuse Thu 21-Mar-13 23:19:07

It's completely inappropriate for children of that age of the opposite sex to share a bed, including siblings.

It's completely naive to think that there isn't the potential for abuse/inappropriate behaviour.

Children are learning boundaries and understanding their own bodies, exploring things. It's unfair to put them in a position whereby they MAY act in a manner which they are not mature enough to control, or really understand what is going on.

Sometimes children need to be protected from themselves too.

AThingInYourLife Thu 21-Mar-13 23:21:11

"So whqt does it mean? I could say I am a potential prime minister, because an am a political person, or a potential supermodel, because I am a female. . Both would be stupid things to say."

No more stupid than what you have been saying about entire groups of people not being potential abusers.

You introduced the idea of the "potential abuser" to this discussion by insisting that it was not OK to say that ten year old boys were potential abusers.

But some 10 year old boys are abusers. We know that.

And so obviously there is the potential for 10 year old boys to abuse.

So a unknown 10 year old boy might be abusive.

It's a possibility. That's not really deniable.

That doesn't mean all 10 year d boys are abusers. Or most. Or many.

But it does mean that there is the potential that a 10 year old boy might be abusive.

Your examples are not equivalent.

If you said that no mothers were potential prime ministers because you were not.

Or that a certain woman you had never met was not a potential supermodel because she could not possibly be beautiful enough, despite you never having seen her.

That would be closer to the kinds of statements you were making earlier about the lack of potential for abusiveness in 10 year old boys.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 23:25:41

thebody where did I say I was disgusted? confused

I actually work with adults who have been sexually abused as children and a big part of my job is helping them understand that they are not somehow predestined to abuse to - just because they have been abused. Or seeing all (usually) men as potential abusers so much so it destroys their life. So no by saying I dont agree that everyone has the "potential" to abuse doesnt mean I am minimising the subject or dont have an understanding of the issues, what patients tell me is most definitely their real life and is not "fluffy bunnies."

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:26:26

And a potential to be any of these things are just as likely in the correct circumstances to encourage them, however the difference is any of those things, supermodel, prime minister etc, does not put others at risk.

Look into simple learning theories and there is your answer.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 23:29:20

And thebody Im actually quite offended by your sweeping assumption that I "cant believe" referring to abuse helps paedophiles like Jimmy Saville to flourish - at no point did I say anything remotely like that. I hear it every day what adults do sexually to children and the emotional impact this has had on their lives.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 23:30:11

mrssham are you really saying any one of us has the potential to sexually abuse a child? Really?

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:30:26

But you are viewing that in a very narrow way then shesariver. What you describe is about resilience and countering oppression. MA y other professionals deal with people who have experienced abuse as an influence on their own abusive behaviour. It is not an exact science unfortunately.

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:31:08

I believe so, given the correct circumstances we do.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 23:34:11

Not wishing to get into a huge debate but there is no way I accept that....ok help me understand why you believe this - then what "correct circumstances" would make you sexually abuse a child since this is what you are stating you are capable of?

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:36:20

When abuse is the only influence you know. Shocking and disturbing life long circumstances.

My judgement is that the potential to continue that behaviour is as strong as the potential to break the cycle.

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:39:53

And not to discredit your role, as that is so important to empowering and enabling cycles to be be broken and given that message to everyone that the influences of abuse and the negative effects can be powerful.

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:40:20

Giving not given.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 23:43:48

No I do understand about shocking and "disturbing life long circumstances" thanks and the risks involved with poor attachment relationships - but doesn't automatically turn you into an abuser however, in my experience people who have been sexually abused as children are more at risk to themselves than others e.g increases the risk of suffering borderline personality disorder with an associated higher risk of self-harm.

So that doesn't really answer the question as to why you think anyone could be abuser when you are now just referring to people who have been abused themselves....

And Im glad I dont believe "My judgement is that the potential to continue that behaviour is as strong as the potential to break the cycle" thankfully.

shesariver Thu 21-Mar-13 23:46:42

And not to discredit your opinion but none of my patients need to learn the message that "the influences of abuse and the negative effects can be powerful"....as they live it every day of their lives, which is why they end up in therapy in the first place.

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:51:36

Like I said you are viewing it from a narrow professional point of view. The influences of abuse are not as clear cut as that.

I can accept that cycles can be broken with the appropriate influences and interventions and the effects of abuse can be varied.

but there is the likelihood that abuse and unclear boundaries can lead to certain risky and abusive behaviours associated with experiencing abuse.

As can increased chances of MH. And so your argument is just as strong as it is open to critique, just like my own opinion.

because you can't also argue that people who are abused are a risk to them selfs or at risk of personality disorders.

Because some are not. But the potential is there because of the abuse.

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:54:15

And they are lead to therapy because they have somewhere received the appropriate intervention and influences. And they receive therapy as part of that learning process.

MrsSham Thu 21-Mar-13 23:56:23

Like you said part of your role is to help them understand they are not predestined to abuse....this is part of that learning process.

shesariver Fri 22-Mar-13 00:01:37

"Narrow professional point of view" Hahaha, good god hmm

because you can't also argue that people who are abused are a risk to them selfs or at risk of personality disorders

Well lots of people much more academic than me have certainly done so as there is an abundance of research showing the link - not of course that being abused automatically makes you develop a personality disorder but it increases the risk. People who have been sexually abused as children do face an increase risk of developing BPD. Of course not everyone who has been abused develops it or indeed not everyone with BPD has been abused either.

MrsSham Fri 22-Mar-13 00:03:17

Like I said narrow, you are completely missing my point.

shesariver Fri 22-Mar-13 00:09:57

Think what you like, thankfully I don't think like you in my job. Goodnight.

MrsSham Fri 22-Mar-13 00:12:47

Good job you are in the job you do then. I prefere to think my self as more open minded and informed.

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 22-Mar-13 00:37:32

Christ alive.

Why don't you two start your own thread and discuss the research surrounding victims of childhood sexual abuse turning into adult abusers,I'm sure it would be fascinating and informative.

I know my own views on the subject but both of your opposing views could run into several pages and I know I would find it highly interesting.

And it would get the derail of this thread back on track,as it certainly sounds like the op is needing her thread to stay on track.

Op as I said earlier if any of the children belonged with me I would not be best pleased.

IMHO both children are made vulnerable by the situation,neither are having there privacy respected neither are having boundaries respected and as you can see from some of the responses on here both are risking many things.

A 10yo boy accused of anything inappropriate and accused and a 5 yo potentially being treated like a victim of some form of abuse where by the checks ect that would be used to ascertain if anything happened should a over enthusiastic TA miss interpret a innocent comment and decide he/she is all of a sudden a 'expert' in CP could in themselves be abusive and very damaging to the child.

If that happened both children could be caused harm.

And besides I expect neither are getting a decent nights kip.

Damash12 Fri 22-Mar-13 02:42:59

Yanbu - no way would I let this continue. When would xh see the age as inappropriate if not now. 1 year? 5 years?

myBOYSareBONKERS Fri 22-Mar-13 07:06:08

sorry if you have already answered this but why cant the boy go on the top bunk?

Asamumnonsense Fri 22-Mar-13 09:53:31

OP, you definitely should not let this go on...
I have a 5 year old and I would not let her be in this situation. Poor little boy too. He is 10, he shouldn't have to share with a younger girl. It is just so odd. It is beyond me that her dad cannot see that.
At some point he is going to have to see that it is not appropriate for either children.
Good luck

princessj29 Fri 22-Mar-13 11:52:49

OP back.
I received a reply from the NSPCC. They recommended a referral to Children's. Services because of the combination of bed/room sharing and the physical signs of anxiety DD displays around contact as well as her difficulties communicating. I'm going to see if he's listened about beds/films/games this weekend and take it from there.

MrsSham Fri 22-Mar-13 12:27:37

Sounds like sensible advice OP, I hope it works out well for your dd. just follow the advice if you are not happy, but also don't rely upon him just convincing you that he has, because he may just pay lip service to it and carry on as before.

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