To Send DD on a School Trip

(187 Posts)
SooticaTheWitchesCat Wed 20-Mar-13 10:59:24

...even though my husband is refusing to let her go?

Our DD is nearly 9 and this year they are having a school residential trip for 2 nights to an activity centre. DD really wants to go as all her friends are going and I think it would be great for her too.

DH on the other hand says there is no way she is allowed to go, that she is just a baby and that she can't be away from us overnight.

I think he is being totally unreasonable, she isn't a baby and if she doesn't go not only will she miss out on a great experience but she will feel left out because all her friends are going.

We have argued and argued about it he wont budge in but I am now thinking of just paying the deposit and saying she can go anyway in the hope I can convince him later.

Would that be wrong? I know it will cause more arguments but she has been so upset at the thought of not being able to go.

Misfit13 Wed 20-Mar-13 11:47:28

Hmm, I get how DH feels and imagine he will feel pretty pissed off to have those feelings disregarded. However, I would do it anyway, for all the reasons you''ve given.
Is it close enough to drive and collect her if she doesn't cope? Would that reassure him any? (even if you''ve no intention of actually doing it..)

SooticaTheWitchesCat Wed 20-Mar-13 11:52:57

It isn't that I am diregarding his feelings and I do understand how he feels, I just think it is wrong of him to not let her go.

It is about an hour away so I could easily go and get her if I needed to. I'm not sure it would reassure him though. I have suggested we go and talks to the school to talk about any concerns about safety etc. and he wont even do that sad

Pandemoniaa Wed 20-Mar-13 11:58:34

He's being very unrealistic and, most importantly, not acting in the best interests of your dd. At nearly 9 she should be allowed to go on what will certainly be a well-supervised residential trip as part of her increasing independence. How on earth is he going to manage when she gets to secondary school age?

amistillsexy Wed 20-Mar-13 12:01:11

There are sound educational, social and emotional reasons why residentials away from parents are a good idea.
Your DH sounds like he is one of those very good reasons.

Children need to have time away from the family home and be given a safe environment in which to 'practice' being grown up. If they get no practice in being grown up until they are legally of age to leave home, they could end up making their mistakes out in the real world, which could be catastrophic.

Your DH sounds to be very controlling and narrow-minded. It will be difficult for you to argue against him, as it's a matter of two different points of view.

Would you be able to get an appointment to speak to someone at school (preferably someone in charge, like the DH or HT, so they have 'authority'), who can put forward the sound arguments for these trips, and answer any queries and concerns your DH has?

I used to take Y6 on 5 day residentials and we all had a wonderful time. The children learned so much about themselves from the challenges, and they all bonded hugely with each other and the staff. It would be awful for a child not to go, when every one else is going (I assume the rest of the class is going?).

Misfit13 Wed 20-Mar-13 12:01:38

Sorry, didn't mean to suggest you were disregarding his feelings, but that he might feel that you were x

littlewhitebag Wed 20-Mar-13 12:02:24

She is 9 years not 9 months and she is certainly not a baby. I agree that it is important for children to start having time away from their family as part of growing up and becoming independent. What will happen if she gets to 18 and have hardly ever been away? How would she be able to cope with uni and life on her own. 2 nights is a short period - just right for that age group. Yes you may worry a little about her but i'll bet she will have a great time.

TheSeniorWrangler Wed 20-Mar-13 12:04:44

yanbu, he is being ridiculous. she is not a baby and she will be perfectly safe.

I went away with my school in yr 5 and 6 and again in secondary in yr 7, they were fun and essential to much of the years summer term work! Not going would, quite frankly, be detrimental to her education.

girlwhowearsglasses Wed 20-Mar-13 12:08:37

YANBU, but how about getting him to have a chat or phone call with the teacher organising it - if he has real concerns about a trip away for nine year olds, or indeed specifically your nine year old, he should be willing to engage and hear their answers. unless he is just being bloody minded and isn't interested in the facts

DorisIsWaiting Wed 20-Mar-13 12:15:30

YANBU dd1 is 7 and will be going on her first brownie pack holiday in May, as with you it will be for 2 nights.

What exactly does he object too ? It seems a shame that she is not allowed to grow up and develop new skills with her friends.

Also why does he get to have the final say your dd wants to go and you agree it would be for the best, bwhy is his vote overriding , and what woud happen if you told him she will be going?

My DS (9) has just come back from an activity weekend with the school and (I quote) "The best weekend ever" - DH and I didn't have any concerns at all and I'm not sure what I would do in your situation.

However, since you are only at the point of paying the deposit. I would pay it and then ask to talk to teacher. Our HT had a big meeting with parents which included slides of previous years, feed back from children etc which seemed to put a lot of other parents concerns at rest.

Out of interest, do you give your DD much independence / freedom now? Is she allowed to walk to shop nearby by herself, play out with friends ? Does DH worry about this? Does she do Brownies/ camping trips?

Oh and YANBU !

valiumredhead Wed 20-Mar-13 12:17:29

Dh was the same but I talked him round residential trips in the UK but school trips abroad are still a definite no, although I tend to agree with him on that one.

livinginwonderland Wed 20-Mar-13 12:19:57

at that age, i was going to france with the school for a week. the school had a rented house there and we had dorms, and it was a really amazing experience and i loved every second of it. your DH is beig very unreasonable - what's going to happen when she gets to secondary school and wants sleepovers at the weekend? surely at 9 she's stayed at a friends before?

BuddyButters Wed 20-Mar-13 12:21:25

Pay the deposit.
Send her.
Tell him she ran away.
He'll be so relieved when she comes back that he won't be able to be cross.

wannabeEostregoddess Wed 20-Mar-13 12:21:52

YANBU.

He is going to HAVE to cut the strings at some point and its better all round to start encouraging independence early. So that DH can get used to the idea that shes growing up, and that DD can learn how to be responsible away from you both.

If he continues this way she will resent him for restricting her.

nipersvest Wed 20-Mar-13 12:23:29

yanbu, most schools now do residential trips. dd went on one for 3 nights in yr5, my niece's trip was 2 nights in yr4.

she will feel really left out at school if she's the only one not going. my dd loved her trip so much that ds (currently yr3) is so looking forward to when he goes.

ImAlpharius Wed 20-Mar-13 12:24:50

Your DH is being very unreasonable and incredibly selfish.
Ask him why she can't go, being 'a baby' is not a good enough reason nor is that he will miss her etc. That's all about him and this trip is about her, also ask him why he thinks his feeling override BOTH of yours in this instance.

If he doesn't give good enough answers (and refusing to go into school to talk about concerns furthers the selfish aspect) then I would pay the deposit.

titchy Wed 20-Mar-13 12:25:20

Oh pay the deposit. And make sure she goes. Tell him he can apply to court if he objects that much.

He is being a complete twat especially as he won't even talk to school about his concerns. Is he normally so controlling? Does he reaslise how upset she is?

PatriciaHolm Wed 20-Mar-13 12:28:52

Poor girl. Has she really never been away from you for a night?

She will feel very left out if she doesn't go, it's a very mean attitude to take. Can a teacher have a quick word to tell him that she'll be safe, and that everyone else is going and she'll be alone at school???

Pandemoniaa Wed 20-Mar-13 12:29:56

Agree with others about paying the deposit. That way she has the chance to go on the trip while you tackle your unreasonable DH.

tiredaftertwo Wed 20-Mar-13 12:31:27

I would pay the deposit now if you will otherwise lose the place.

And then have a think. Your DH's position - of refusing to let her do things that society and school sanction and organise and that everyone else is doing - is simply not tenable as she approaches her teens. And the battles could drive her away.....But he is scared, and I do understand that.

I am a bit of a worrier and I have mostly gone with the "official" line on these things - film certificates, alcohol, school trips, dangerous activities, facebook etc. Not as a cop-out or because I think they are always right but those lines are considered reasonable by society usually, and it avoids conflict with your dc and worrying over every little decision - save that for when there really is a reason to think the general rules don't apply. Maybe, for your dh, this angle might help?

It sounds like his fears are very general - is this right? She hasn't got serious food allergy or bedwetting issues or anything like that?

I agree about asking the HT to talk to him, and maybe also you could talk generally about your dd growing up, and how an essential part of this is that she becomes more independent. It really is, she will HAVE to cope in a scary and difficult world. And she needs the tools to do that (horrible though it can be for parents!).

MortifiedAdams Wed 20-Mar-13 12:32:01

It will be very smothering for her to feel babied by him in this way and could even result in her rebelling big time in the future.

Ive worked in the places your dd will will be going to. THey have a whale of a time and tbh the parents find it harder and some totally project this onto the kids and hinder their enjoyment.

Your DH is BU.

Maybe suggest he reads this thread?

EggsEggSplat Wed 20-Mar-13 12:37:21

Does he have any reason at all for thinking that your 9yo is more of a baby than all the other children in her class who are being allowed to go? And all the other children that age all over the country who go on similar trips at that age or younger? DD is 10 and has done two PGL trips with school - they are the highlight of her year, and I'm sending her to PGL by herself this summer.

I feel very sorry for your DD - it would be miserable being the only one left at school, and having to hear how much fun everyone had whrn they get back.

cory Wed 20-Mar-13 12:43:20

I think your dh is certainly in the wrong here and is going to have to be talked round.

The question is just how you find a way of doing it which still makes him feel involved in the decision as a parent. If you can manage that, it will help enormously with the battles ahead.

Denying her important social milestones is almost like refusing a baby to get up on its feet and try to walk because he thinks she is too little. It is pointless because she will gain independence anyway, but he is breeding resentment and making a natural transition that little bit harder.

I think your dh is being very unreasonable.

Don't get me wrong, I too am a worrier, but as adults we need to try to privilege rationality over our anxieties grin

ISingSoprano Wed 20-Mar-13 12:45:31

I am strongly of the opinion that independence is a skill needs to be learned and at the age of 8 or 9 a 2 night school residential is an excellent way to start learning that skill! As is said so often here, it is our job as parents to give our children roots and wings.

SashaSashays Wed 20-Mar-13 12:52:31

Has she never been to a sleepover? Can't you sell it to him as a similar thing.

I think he needs to get a grip.

Pinkelephanty Wed 20-Mar-13 12:52:45

YANBU. She is not a baby. 9 is quite old enough to go on a school trip and she will be fine. I dont know how to deal with your stubbon dh on the matter but you should absolutely make sure she goes. It will be a wonderful experience she remembers for ever and her dads over protectiveness would rob her of that.

PommePoire Wed 20-Mar-13 12:54:23

What is he afraid of? Maybe he has heard anecdotal stories from work colleagues, read something sensationalised in the newspaper, or remembers something negative that happened to him, or someone he knows when they were a child on a school trip?

I know you say you've suggested that he talks to the school, but I think this is the avenue you should pursue. He perhaps needs to be reassured that this isn't a case of shoving the kids in an unlicensed mini van, with no seat-belts, before driving off into the countryside with a value pack of crisps and no real plan. The teachers are in loco parentis, for goodness sake. Everything will be meticulously planned and with the students' welfare, health and safety at the forefront.

In the ten years I was teaching, I planned, organised and lead trips at home and abroad for secondary school children aged 11 to 18. During that time there was a much needed revolution in the way such trips are planned, researched, checked and assessed. Even a simple walk to the local shops to do a traffic survey involves a pre-visit 'dummy run,' then filling out detailed forms, designed to make sure the responsible adults have preempted all possible dangers. (Barring genuine, unforeseeable accidents, of course, but those are thankfully very rare.)

The likelihood is that your DDs school will have run this exact trip many times and all the staff involved know, for example, where all the fire exits are and run a fire drill with the students on arrival. Sorry to sound cynical, but we live in a culture where the risk of being sued makes most LEAs very very cautious about giving a school the go ahead to offer any trip that isn't extremely well run and rightly, safety conscious. Your DH might just need to have the level of caution and care involved in the planning and running of your DDs school's trip explained to him?

YANBU she should go!

SooticaTheWitchesCat Wed 20-Mar-13 14:38:13

Thank you for all your replies, I'm glad you all feel the same way.

I am going to pay the deposit and try to get him to go to the school for a talk or at least to the meeting they will have nearer the time.

Our DD has never done a sleepover at a friends house because he won't let her stay away at night. She does lots of things in the day and he says if it was a day trip it would be fine it is just the overnight bit that he doesn't like. I think part of it is because he never did anything like that as a child, he wasn't born in the UK and he thinks it odd that anyone should let their child stay away overnight. He has also been talking to people at work who say they wouldn't let their children go but I have s feeling they are probably quite old and don't have young children.

I think he just has a really old fashioned view of things sometimes, even my mum and dad say she should be able to go on the trip.

PommePoire Wed 20-Mar-13 14:42:19

Good plan and good luck, Sootica, your DD will thank you!

snuffaluffagus Wed 20-Mar-13 14:48:36

We had a great year 5 trip to a PGL (activity) centre when I was at school. It was brilliant - fun, exciting, new, educational etc and we talked about it for weeks and weeks afterwards.. she WOULD be missing out so you're doing the right thing in paying the deposit and keeping the option open. Do try and talk him around!

Mumsyblouse Wed 20-Mar-13 14:51:15

Your Dh's overprotective attitude is exactly why primary schools have started trying to promote greater independence, because in two years time, your dd may be travelling several hours a day on public transport to a school or going on a school trip away- it's way too much of a shock to go from constant surveillance to independence all at once. Our school wrote a letter to all the parents saying that they were gradually working towards increasing the independence of children (subtext- because you lot are all mollycoddling them) by starting with smaller trips, such as this two day one for Year 4, building up to the week away in Yr 6.

I agree with them, I know I'm a bit over-protective myself and it's been good for both me and my daughter to get a bit stretched by her going away in Yr 4, and it was excellent preparation in things like her taking responsibility for putting her hair up herself, or finding and dressing quickly (I often find everything for her and even resort to dressing her myself if she is slow).

Put your foot down on this one by paying the deposit, but equally, your husband could attend the parents evening or see the teacher to discuss it- our trip had an open evening to discuss such issues. He may find it reassuring (or he may continue to resist in which case, this may be one where you just have to be more determined than him).

Mumsyblouse Wed 20-Mar-13 14:54:49

And, I don't know what culture he is from, you say he's not from the UK, but on most of continental Europe, they think we baby our kids terribly- children in France, Germany, Eastern Europe, Nordic countries let their children walk to school from 6/7 and go on school trips away from very young. So, it is us that is out of step.

idococktailshedoesbeer Wed 20-Mar-13 15:04:14

It would be great for her, not sure how you'll convince your DH tho. I did a week away at that age and I still remember how excited I felt and how much fun it was.

I also remember going abroad on a compulsory language trip at 16. A couple of girls who had very controlling parents and had never been allowed out went completely wild, putting themselves into very dangerous situations and doing awful things. It all ended very badly. Made me realise how important it is to give your kids freedom IYSWIM.

CocktailQueen Wed 20-Mar-13 15:06:43

Are you at my dd's school? Year 4 is going on a 2-night activity break too. She's longing to go! And she will. I think they're old enough at 9.

dixiechick1975 Wed 20-Mar-13 15:08:44

Could you arrange for someone at school to speak to him/give him all the info.

2 nights seems a good start. Does he realise that there will be more trips and for longer to come as she gets older.

DD had 1 night away age 6 with rainbows. Now will be having 2 nights age 7 with brownies and so on. The leader was saying the only girl they have had to let come home was a guide (so age 11 plus) who had never slept away from home before.

Remotecontrolduck Wed 20-Mar-13 15:20:37

YANBU, you definitely need to get it into his head now she's not a baby and needs independence. If it carries on to secondary school age she's going to have a miserable relationship with her over-protective dad.

I think you need to force this one through, reassure him she'll be fine but please send her.

Mandy2003 Wed 20-Mar-13 15:40:54

Does DH have any friends from his culture (or relatives) that are parents in the UK? Can he talk to them about school trips?

From my experience, if your daughter is not allowed to go she will be bullied dreadfully. My parents wouldn't allow me to go on school trips because I have had diabetes from the age of 3 and they thought the teachers/residential staff "wouldn't cope if I was ill" sad

monkeycrzy Wed 20-Mar-13 15:45:34

I think I would pay the deposit and broach subject later. DD (yr5) has a trip in May for 2 nights away too, but isn't going - her choice! Most of the other children cannot wait to go, so if your dd wants to go, I would try to convince DH.

hopefloats Wed 20-Mar-13 16:02:41

I was the same with DS about his residential trip at the same age. I imagined all kinds of danger they might encounter as 9 year olds. As it turned out, 18 hours after they arrived , a dozen of them went down with a stomach bug, so I had to drive the hour's trip to rescue him. I didn't imagine that hmm

VonHerrBurton Wed 20-Mar-13 16:36:17

Show him this thread.

Pozzled Wed 20-Mar-13 16:52:36

I think your DH is BU and she should be allowed to go. However, I know that I would be absolutely livid if I didn't want my DD to do something, but DH went ahead and booked it anyway. As her parent he does have the right to be involved in decisions like this.

I think you need to find a way of persuading him that it will be worse for her not to go. Talk to him about how left out she will feel, how she could face teasing, and that she needs to learn independence gradually. I would also say that he has to be specific about his concerns, so that you can draw up a list of pros and cons.

If you do decide to pay the deposit, I think you need to tell him that you're doing so.

Hulababy Wed 20-Mar-13 16:58:48

Your DH needs to think about his daughter far more and stop putting his own feelings before those of his child. Note the word CHILD and not BABY.

At DD's school there are 3 night residentials from Y3 and every single child goes. In the time DD has been at the school I have not known of any child not go, in any of the year groups either (Y3-6 all do a residential). There is also another 2 night one as well for anyone aged 8y or over.

Children benefit massively from these trips.

By not being permitted to go, your DH is going to isolate your daughter form her classmates. They will be all talking about it, being excited about it coming up and then afterwards again talking about it, a shared experience for them all.

A 9y is not a baby and should not be treated as such. He needs to put her first and let her experience this trip as she wants to, along with her friends.

Your DH risks making his daughter very unhappy with him - and I don't just mean now. This could go on for years, the resentment that is.

Hulababy Wed 20-Mar-13 17:00:11

Oh - and in Y5 DD went for 3 nights in France. Again every child went. Would never have dreamed of saying no to it. I trust her teachers to look out for her and I know the risk assessment was thorough.

Hulababy Wed 20-Mar-13 17:03:08

Just considered a compromise if he really does insist on being selfish enough to not allow her to go.

Is he prepared to driver and collect her each evening, just before the bedtime, and then drive her back every morning in time for the first activity?

At least then the poor girl won't miss out entirely ebcause of him.

mowbraygirl Wed 20-Mar-13 17:08:27

My GD2 has today gone on a 2 night residential trip with her school. She has been so looking forward to it since her sister went 3 years ago. It is only about a 40 minute trip from the school.

When GD1 went one little girl in the years father wouldn't let her go it wasn't the cost just didn't want her to be away overnight. GD had a whale of a time and felt so sorry for the little girl missing out on all the fun like the OPs husband don't think he was born in the UK.

Floggingmolly Wed 20-Mar-13 17:22:28

That would be even worse, Hulababy. The "camping out" element is all part of the experience, especially when it's your first time away from home, as it was for my dd.
Get the teacher to have a word if he won't listen to you; he'll be doing your dd a great disservice by making her miss this experience, she's no more at risk from anything untoward than the other 30 odd children going.

lljkk Wed 20-Mar-13 17:27:14

He is being VU. But don't do this behind his back, I think you've got to persuade him, for instance, that Beavers (age 6-8) & Brownies (age 7+) all do overnight residentials routinely, she'll be fine as long as she wants to go.

lastSplash Wed 20-Mar-13 17:29:28

Going against the flow here - he is a parent as well and it is not on to just disregard his concerns, you both need to come to a compromise. Imagine if you felt uncomfortable with your DC doing something and were concerned for their safety - how would you feel if their other parent sneakily set them up to do it against your wishes? I don't think it is that unusual to not be happy about a school residential at age 9, a bit old fashioned or coming from a different cultural perspective perhaps, but not outrageously overstepping, irrational or whatever. It would be pretty undermining to unilaterally make a decision behind his back though.

BTW - I happily let my DS go on cubs residentials at a younger age than this, so this isn't because I agree with him that she isn't old enough...

LIZS Wed 20-Mar-13 17:37:38

I agree it is the norm for year 5/6 to go on overnights. Both dc did this in year 5 and then did an exchange visit to France in year 6, staying with a family we never met ! Did he attend the briefing session for parents? Can he meet the teacher in charge to discuss any concerns. Maybe suggest a dummy run at friends/family well beforehand.

BellaVita Wed 20-Mar-13 17:57:34

Good lord, he needs to get a grip. In a couple of years time she will be going to secondary school.

SooticaTheWitchesCat Wed 20-Mar-13 18:02:09

There hasn't been a meeting yet, which I think is a bit wrong as I think parents should really know what is going to happen before they pay up. But anyway.

I won't be doing anything behind his back, I will tell him I will pay the deposit and then that he needs to come to the meeting or talk to one of the teachers.

I just hope I can win him round in the end..

MamaBear17 Wed 20-Mar-13 18:02:38

I think your dh is being very over protective, but, you really do need to come to these decisions together. If the centre is only an hour away why don't you suggest a visit together - he might feel better if he has seen the place? You can ring up and ask to visit most of these types of places.

thegreylady Wed 20-Mar-13 19:18:14

may I suggest your dd stays overnight just once with a relative-your parents perhaps before the trip. That should reassure your dh and would also help your dd a little.

Arithmeticulous Wed 20-Mar-13 19:23:59

I think he's unreasonable because he's made this grand announcement without actually finding anything out about the trip. It's hardly an informed decision, is it?

Goldmandra Wed 20-Mar-13 19:35:42

I would suggest that you don't pay the deposit behind his back. It will probably just make him angry and more determined to stop her going and you don't want your DD stuck in the middle.

I would go and see the head teacher and explain the situation. Ask them to hold a place for her without a deposit because you can't go behind your DH's back but you believe that your DD really needs this opportunity to develop her independence. Then ask them how they can help you to get your DH on side.

You need to find a way to work together to solve this problem, not just for this trip but for sleepovers with friends and future trips. If you end up escalating the conflict it will just make the whole thing harder to solve.

lilackaty Wed 20-Mar-13 20:56:51

If your dd does get to go, please make sure that she stays somewhere overnight first. I ran a residential last year and the children that hadn't stayed away from home really struggled. It would be awful if you fought for her to go & then she wasn't able to stay. Just seen that thegreylady has also said that.
He really needs to speak to someone at school about it. Does the residential place have a website he could look at? Good Luck.

tiredaftertwo Thu 21-Mar-13 09:21:46

I see you said she has never stayed overnight without you - and he feels she should not. I can see that if he thinks sleepovers with one trusted friend are not OK, then a school residential will be very hard. I think the first step is to show him somehow that many, many girls of this age go to sleepovers without their parents - it is perfectly normal, respectable, safe, and considered an important of growing up for most children. Many schools have week long trips in year 6, and even more crucially in year 7. To miss the year 7 trip could be really upsetting and damaging.

I think if he could accept that bit, then maybe reassurance about the specifics of the trip might help, and I hope the school will be helpful and not too hardline about sticking to rules about phones or whatever in your dd's case.

SomeBear Thu 21-Mar-13 09:40:53

Has your DH given an indication of what age your DD will be when she is allowed to sleep away from the house? Your DH may have valid reasons to be against this trip, but I think they need to be addressed rather than pandered to. Your DD is half way to being an adult already and most definitely not a baby. She will be at secondary in 2 years!

I have 3 DCs, all have been on school residential trips from the age of 8 - it's giving them opportunities to cement friendships and also do activities we can never offer them.

issypiggle Thu 21-Mar-13 09:58:15

the whole point of these residential trips are so they can grow as a person, not only that, you get 2 nights of freedom!!!

no didnt mean that wink

i was in brownies/guide etc and went on overnight stays from 8, it did me no hassle, they were never far away and the parents could always come and collect.

could your dh chat to parents that have sent their children on the trip before to get the ins and outs of the trip.

i agree with an earlier post first that your dd should spend a night away first, even if it's at a friends house for a sleep over.

Lancelottie Thu 21-Mar-13 10:08:08

'I think part of it is because he never did anything like that as a child, he wasn't born in the UK and he thinks it odd that anyone should let their child stay away overnight.'

Hmm, that does go some way to explain it.

A friend of ours was equally adamant that his daughters would not be going on the school residential trip and that it was an absurd thing to do. We pointed out that he'd been sent to boarding school -- in a different country! -- from the age of 9.

He decided that two nights of 'boarding school' was actually OK, rather than thinking of it as a sort of all-night party for 9-yr-olds.

Lancelottie Thu 21-Mar-13 10:09:31

Must say, though, that you need to listen to any good reasons he has for thinking that your daughter is less mature than others the same age. One of our boys, in retrospect, was too immature to cope well at 9. What is your girl like?

Lancelottie Thu 21-Mar-13 10:16:38

What we had to do with our older son (who has significant SEN) was to practise the trip by slow degrees -- rehearse getting on a coach, packing and unpacking, bedmaking, knowing where your stuff has gone, remembering your own toothbrushing not that he did I suspect , going to sleep without a light if that's unusual, and all the other bits that go into building up independence. We started small with an overnight at a friend's, too

On the first resi, we went too and he only did the daytime. On the next one, he did the lot. The following year he went on a Tall Ships cruise involving real Mild Peril and loved it.

With our younger boy, we breezily thought, 'Oh, he'll be fine,' without doing any of the above -- and he really struggled.

The (rambling) point here is that independence is necessary and needs to be built up, rather than saying 'she'll never cope' and making sure she doesn't.

Lancelottie Thu 21-Mar-13 10:17:37

(Why does Autocorrect want to put 'sharpshooting' instead of 'toothbrushing'?)

GettingObsessive Thu 21-Mar-13 10:22:55

I agree with the approach you are taking OP. If he still refuses, I would expect him to be the one to explain to your DD why he is not letting her go (and none of this "your mother and I" crap).

Floggingmolly Thu 21-Mar-13 10:24:19

None of them ever do sharpshooting tooth brushing, lancelottie, I'm surprised my dd came back with any teeth left. smile

Lancelottie Thu 21-Mar-13 10:30:49

Sharpshooting would probably be the more popular option. But OP's DH might have slightly more grounds for objecting to it.

Mandy2003 Thu 21-Mar-13 10:35:37

DS won the prize for tidiest room - he didn't unpack anything I so lovingly packed and spent the whole week in the same clothes day and night!! Not even sure he washed either shock

I'd be tempted to point out to my DH if he were being this ridiculous, that he'd have no say over what I let her do if we were seperated, and the type of control he is trying to exhibit is exactly the sort of thing that could lead to a seperation.

SooticaTheWitchesCat Thu 21-Mar-13 12:12:48

Lancelottie, I think he would be quite happy for her to never stay away from home until she was 25! he does find it very odd that anyone would let their child stay away from home even at a friends and that is what I am finding it hard to get past. I am worried that even if he does talk to the teachers and they can convince him that it is safe and that she will be well supervised he will still say no just because he doesn't want her to be away.

She is really quite sensible and I think she would cope very well, she would definitely brush her teeth smile

lljkk Thu 21-Mar-13 17:59:38

I am desperate to know what country OP's DH hails from.

I did not think that any nationality could be more protective of their children than the British are.

UrbanPrincess Thu 21-Mar-13 18:05:24

Your OH is being a control freak and completely unreasonable.

Pay the deposit.

Let her go, she will love it.

What on earth does he think will happen to her? All night raves and drug taking? He needs to learn to let go and she is NOT A BABY!

UrbanPrincess Thu 21-Mar-13 18:07:08

Just to add ... my friends DD went on one of these trips at the same age. She has CF and her mum had huge additional worries over her meds, physio etc but she planned it all, spoke to the staff, made contingency plans and her DD had an amazing time.

It's about letting your children explore the world without mum or dad looking over your shoulder constantly ... however hard that might be for a parent.

Goldmandra Thu 21-Mar-13 18:13:48

He needs to learn to let go and she is NOT A BABY!

If the OP pays the deposit and organises for her DD to go against his wishes that isn't him letting go and it could escalate the situation and make it far more upsetting for the child.

Learning to let go means cooperating in the process.

Obviously we don't know the ins and outs of the OP's relationship but I can't imagine that her going behind his back, riding roughshod over his rights as a parent will make anything better.

Of course he is being unreasonable but he may feel very anxious about this. There are better ways to go about managing this situation.

DH is North African and he never went on residential trips when he was a child. He did think it strange when DS1 went away aged 8 (PGL) but he did accept that DS1 would be alright and that it wouldn't be good for him to be the only one who didn't go. Needless to say DS1 had a great time and talked about nothing else for days when he got back.

whiteflame Thu 21-Mar-13 18:28:00

YANBU.

How far away is the trip? In the interest of convincing your DH, if it is still some time away could you organise an overnighter with a relatives he trusts, and then progress to a night with a friend?

You've probably tried this, but how about explaining to him that "no nights away" might work fine in his birth culture, but in a culture where the whole class is going away it's not feasible. Is there something his culture does that British people generally don't (ideally something associated with rite of passage, but anything would do), that you could turn around to say "what if we lived in your birth country, and I decreed "no <insert> for DD because it is unnecessary""...

Lancelottie Fri 22-Mar-13 08:20:42

So... in two years she'll be at secondary.
So far for us that's involved:

a compulsory one-week residential for all of yr 7
a French exchange, not compulsory but recommended
three geography overnight field trips, two of which were compulsory for GCSE
a Tall Ships week (no, not necessary, but amazing!)
a canoe trip
London theatre with overnight for drama

Could also have opted for:

Duke of Edinburgh's Award camp-out
Wind Band tour abroad
German exchange...

I could go on. If she can't go to anything, even the field trips, she will really, really miss out, for no good reason.

MayTheOddsBeEverInYourFavour Fri 22-Mar-13 08:33:22

YANBU

Of course as her parent he has a say, but why is his opinion more important than yours? why does he get power of veto?

In an ideal world all decisions would be 50/50 but in reality that's just not always possible. I think if a stalemate is reached then the parent who does the majority of the caring should get the final say (in my case that would be my DH so I'm not being sexist) only because they are usually the ones who have to pick up the slack and organise things. I don't think they are the more important parent, I just think its the fairest way if no compromise can be reached

He shouldn't get to unilaterally decide about this especially if your dd wants to go and it's a 'normal' and I think important part of growing up, and especially because he doesn't even have a solid reason

Whatdoiknowanyway Fri 22-Mar-13 08:46:17

My DD is in her first year at university. One of her friends there has a flatmate in university accommodation whose mother came with her. And stayed. In a 3 person student flat. After about 6 weeks (no, I don't know why it took them so long) the other flatmates complained and the mother moved out to a nearby hotel. Where she is still.

The girl took revenge on the others reporting her mother's excessive stay by reporting them every time a boyfriend came for the weekend.

Some parents just can't let go and it does their children no favours.

lljkk Fri 22-Mar-13 09:39:22

She'll be living with mom and only mom for second year, then, I imagine!

mrsjay Fri 22-Mar-13 09:44:08

DH on the other hand says there is no way she is allowed to go, that she is just a baby and that she can't be away from us overnight.

He is an arse ( in the nicest possible way) she is 9 she is going to be going to high school very soon he is going to get a huge fright when his 'baby'becomes a teenager
, he cant deny her this it isn't fair on her there is no physical or financial reason she cant go he is doing it for her own silly reasons, of course you worry whent hey are away on things but he can't hold her back because he is scared, let her go tell him gently he is making her miss out for his own selfish reasons ,

RubyGates Fri 22-Mar-13 10:04:07

Are there cultural or religious reasons for his inflexibility?
If there are and he won't let her do this, might this be an indicator of things to come?
This is a coversation you need to have now.

SooticaTheWitchesCat Fri 22-Mar-13 10:41:45

That is what I am worried about and why I think I really need to make sure she does go on the trip. He has said he doesn't want her to do things he has never heard about before like brownies and dance classes but I have always managed to convince him it will be good for her and she does both things still. This time he is being really determined.

He was out last night so I never had a chance to talk but tonight I am going to say I will pay the deposit and that I want him to either come to the meeting if it is soon or come and talk with the headteacher because I don't think his reasons are good enough to just not let her go.

Wish me luck!

mrsjay Fri 22-Mar-13 10:47:49

Good luck he really needs to let her do things within reason

lljkk Fri 22-Mar-13 10:50:00

good luck smile.
Still itching to know what his cultural background is.
What do children do his country, do they nothing at all independently?

RubyGates Fri 22-Mar-13 10:53:04

Good luck! smile

SooticaTheWitchesCat Fri 22-Mar-13 18:06:28

lljkk - he is Turkish and I don't think children do anything away from home, not school trips anyway.

On a practical note, if she doesn't go what does he think will happen to her when the rest of the class and teaching staff are away?

lljkk Fri 22-Mar-13 18:34:43

I recall Turkish friends telling me how they were raised with guns & always went recreational shooting from a young age (under 10yo, no supervising adults).

Probably only the boys got that freedom, though.

LapsusLinguae Fri 22-Mar-13 19:18:17

sootica - can I just ask who out of you and your DH does more of the childcare? I assume you do. Therefore you are a better judge of whether this is suitable for her. Do you have access to your own money/ money that can be spent on anything? It really doesn't matter if he "won't budge". Tell him she is going. Then if he wants to he can contact the school. Is he often controlling?

Christelle2207 Fri 22-Mar-13 19:25:54

He is bvu. I remember very clearly going on a residential in London for 3 nights when I was nine. Loved it. Very important learning experience. I think perhaps convince him to sleep over at her friend's house first?

everlong Fri 22-Mar-13 19:33:12

He's being unfair but you already no that.

Ds is 6 and in year 2 and he's going on an overnight trip with school in May..as is the majority of his year.

What is he scared of?

pointythings Fri 22-Mar-13 20:15:00

I think you need to nail down whether this is a cultural issue or whether he is just unusually anxious. Ask him whether he would let your DD go if she were a DS. Make sure you get an honest answer.

If he says 'Yes' then you have a right to push your point - you are living and raising your DD in the UK, he is going to have to adapt.

If he says 'No' then he needs to seek help to deal with his excessive anxiety and smothering behaviour.

HildaOgden Fri 22-Mar-13 20:22:44

I think she should go,how you make that happen is tricky.

You could suggest that he books into a nearby hotel for the duration,so that he can be there in minutes if needed (what exactly does he think will happen?).I know it's pandering to his worries,but if that's what it takes on this occasion to get her there,then maybe he would be prepared to make that compromise?

bollywoodfan Fri 22-Mar-13 21:46:51

My parents are Indian and I was never allowed to stay anywhere overnight.
We moved house & area when I was 9 and my new school had a residential trip a few months after. I was the only one that didn't go. I had to sit with another year group for that week & it was miserable.
At secondary school there was a week trip to france in the 3rd year - so we were 13/14. All my friends were going. I begged and cried for weeks - but my parents wouldn't budge. They said it was because they would 'miss me'.
None of my friends really did sleepovers so that wasn't too much of an issue. But one time I was asked and of course I wasn't allowed. I then happened to mention later that her dad had been away for work at that time and my mum said 'oh if you had said that her dad wasn't there we would have let you!'. I remember being very shocked and appalled by that.
I still resent and remember these things and I have recently discussed it with my parents. They couldn't even remember these instances!
I will never do this to my children and will let them go on all the trips. Btw I was able to go on all day trips.
Please try and talk you dh around OP

quoteunquote Fri 22-Mar-13 22:11:19

Weird controlling and will rob your child of many an opportunity.

exoticfruits Fri 22-Mar-13 22:28:44

Tell him that all the rest are going and she will still have to go to school, does he really want her miserable with another class while they are all away?

Fallenangle Fri 22-Mar-13 22:30:14

He has chosen to live here rather than Turkey so he needs to come to terms, for DD's sake, with the fact that either his DD fits in or becomes isolated from her peers. At the risk of total geographical confusion when in Rome.

SooticaTheWitchesCat Fri 22-Mar-13 22:41:02

Well I spoke to him again tonight and he was still determined he was not going to allow her to go, still with the same reasons. I told him his excuses were completely unreasonable and that he at least needed to come to the meeting before making his mind up. He said no.

I then said if he wasn't prepared to find out all there was about the trip then I would make the decision and that I was going to pay the deposit.

Anyway we ended the argument with him saying "you send her then, fine". He obviously isn't fine about it and I am sure it isn't the end if the arguing but I will be paying the deposit and when it comes to the meeting I will be trying my hardest to get him to come along.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 06:34:52

If he ended up saying that I would just take him at face value, pay the deposit, go to the meeting, with or without him, and send her. You need to make a start to liberate her, so many opportunities will come up and he will get more used to them if you make a start in this small way. She isn't a baby- he needs to face facts.

Hulababy Sat 23-Mar-13 08:19:33

"You send her then, fine"

Take him at face value. Call his bluff.
At least your dd will get the trip even if her dad isn't happy about it.
You've given him the chance to find out more. He is the one refusing to go so and wanting your child to miss out. Don't let him spoil your dd's opportunities.

mrsjay Sat 23-Mar-13 08:47:14

You need to make a start to liberate her, so many opportunities will come up and he will get more used to them if you make a start in this small way. She isn't a baby- he needs to face facts.

^ ^ that you can make a decision about this too dont let her see that men rule her life and you OP also have a say in what she does, I know he is old fashioned but your dd will suffer and grow up thinking I have to ask dad first

LaQueen Sat 23-Mar-13 09:03:42

Your DH is being very selfish, and is putting his own feelings before those of his DD.

DD1 has just won a place at a PGL camp for the weekend, and she'll be canoeing/climbing/very active outdoorsy stuff, etc.

Frankly, my heart will be in my mouth (especially with the canoeing, because I had a bad experience in one as a child) but I would never, ever let my own fears and anxieties spoil my DD's excitement and enjoyment of something...because I care far more about her happiness and peace of mind, than I do my own.

So, I'm enthusing with her about how great it all will be, and on the day I will wave her off with a huge smile, then I shall fret all weekend and probably sleep badly...but, when she comes back, I will give her a huge hug and enthuse with her again about how amazing it all sounds.

And, she will never, ever know that I was worried or anxious for her - because that is a damned awful worry and burden to place on the shoulders of a child.

LaQueen Sat 23-Mar-13 09:07:54

And to add, one of my favourite all time sayings 'If you truly love your child, you give them roots, but you also give them wings.'

mrsjay Sat 23-Mar-13 09:08:43

I am not saying that you should disregard his feelings and his parental status ( is that even a thing) but sometimes mum is right sometimes dad is right but on this occasion mum is right and you are doing it for your dd ,

Wishiwasanheiress Sat 23-Mar-13 09:09:44

I just wanted to add my support for u. I agree at 9 she is old enough for an organised overnight school trip. I loved these when a child. We also stayed about 1hr away (goldhanger, Essex). It was marvellous. It felt so liberating and scary (in a cosseted comforting way!) I remember the fun on the coach singing songs, learning songs if never heard of from teachers. I remember choosing the bunk bed, unpacking and exploring the new 'home'. I remember the excitement at dinner time of finding a seat, discovering what we were having etc. I remember stories before bedtime and running with all the friends to wash before clambering into bed chatting and finally falling asleep.

It was such fun and I wAnted u to know that at 36 I still remember. Your building memories. Make them happy ones not ones of not being allowed. (Within reason obvs!)

LaQueen Sat 23-Mar-13 09:18:36

I have a relative who never allowd her children to be baby sat by anyone other than very close family...never allowed them to travle in other parent's cars...never allowed them to go on a sleep over...and when she finally allowed them to go away on a residential trip, her and her DH would book into a B&B in the same place.

Do her DCs feel loved and secure, and full of warm glow towards their Mum? No, they don't...they feel resentful, and suffocated, and now both at university they rarely come home for a vsit, and often go and stay with their friends during the holidays.

My relative can't understand 'Why we're not such a close family anymore' and she is very upset/bitter.

They weren't close - they were insular, and claustrophobic, and suffocated.

Numberlock Sat 23-Mar-13 09:18:45

How can you even stay married to someone with these kind of values?? <baffled>

notfluffy Sat 23-Mar-13 09:24:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrsjay Sat 23-Mar-13 09:25:18

and when she finally allowed them to go away on a residential trip, her and her DH would book into a B&B in the same place.

I know somebody who takes their caravan for a weekend away quite near where their dd is on guide camps hmm

lljkk Sat 23-Mar-13 09:30:24

mmm... is it all about sex? Is he afraid she's sexually vulnerable? Would he object just as much if she were a boy? I thought not.
I think you need to go for the jugular, does he really think British parents are so reckless that they don't want to protect their children, that they send them off anywhere to do anything?

Honestly, I think British parents are silly-protective of their parents, but then maybe it's just the modern thing because apparently British used to have sensible in my friends' lifetimes. I bow in homage to him for trumping the Brits in risk aversion but probably only for girls.

You could ask school if he could come in to see the risk assessment forms the school has filled in. All 2000 pages or so of them. Maybe that would bring him to his senses.

lljkk Sat 23-Mar-13 09:32:41

be sensible not have sensible, argh.

LaQueen Sat 23-Mar-13 09:50:30

"Can't stay at home all your life wrapped in cotton wool."

Agree notfluffy - A life lived in fear, is a life only half lived.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 11:50:58

Very true LaQueen- I don't think that parents realise that overprotection goes one of two ways, either once they break free they stay free or they never manage it and are scared of the world. Neither are good outcomes. Anyone who wants to book B&B or stay in a caravan nearby needs to curb the urge- by all means go away- but in the opposite direction!

kerala Sat 23-Mar-13 11:57:59

Totally agree with LeQueen.

Also statistically the chances of anything happening are miniscule. What really worries me is cars and older teenagers. I grew up rurally and in every school year 1 or 2 teenagers were killed in cars driven by their friends. Just devastating going to those funerals and one of the reasons we live in a small city rather than chocolate box village.

LaQueen Sat 23-Mar-13 11:59:40

I agree exotic - it's a very unhealthy, selfish love that actually harms your child, on an emotional and psychological level.

And, ultimately the parent is doing it for their own benefit* and not for their child's...no matter how much they might try and convince themselves otherwise, and insist it demonstrates how much they love their child, and how much they care.

No, it doesn't actually. If you really and truly love your child, in a healthy, sefless way then you wave them off to the PGL camp, with a big grin on your face (and your heart in your mouth).

digerd Sat 23-Mar-13 12:31:55

'You send her then' means he has 'agreed' under your duress but making you responsible for anything that he thinks might happen to her. You will be to blame.

Send her and she can thank you both for the lovely time she had, and wouldn't have missed it for the world. It is only a weekend.

Just hope he appreciates her joy and excitement of the trip and not interrogate her afterwards.

b4bunnies Sat 23-Mar-13 12:43:54

I have a relative who never allowd her children to be baby sat by anyone other than very close family...never allowed them to travel in other parent's cars...never allowed them to go on a sleep over...and when she finally allowed them to go away on a residential trip, her and her DH would book into a B&B in the same place
hmm. brought my daughter up exactly the same way. she seems fine, and hasn't ever had any difficulty going somewhere if she wanted to. now she's staying in a lot - she has a baby whom she loves too much to leave...

Buddybutters Sat 23-Mar-13 13:00:10

FFS just send her. She wants to go. You want her to go. Why should he have the final say? Just bloody send her. He's being stupid. No way I'd even waste breath arguing about if. Knob. Him not you.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 13:54:39

* she has a baby whom she loves too much to leave...*

Roots and wings spring to mind. I find it quite insulting as in 'if you really loved your baby you wouldn't leave them'. It is OK with the baby, although I find it sad that dad never gets any time completely alone, but it isn't healthy later on. Parenting is the one job where you make yourself redundant, if you do it well then they always want to come back because they really enjoy your company. It needs to be gradual and age appropriate. It is age appropriate for a 9yr old to have 2 nights away-and especially if she wants to do it.

The saddest poster on here was a woman who had never left home, never had a partner or a child because her parents had never let her do the normal things and, when older, she was simply too scared.She blamed them.
I can't think why anyone wants to hold back their child with the message, it is a scary world and you are only safe with mummy or daddy. Life is for living!

Hulababy Sat 23-Mar-13 13:58:24

"b4bunnies: she has a baby whom she loves too much to leave..."

Do you really believe that people who dare to go out and leave their baby in the care of another trusted adult do not love their babies as much?

Do you also therefore believe that people who dare to work when they have babies and children do not love their babies as much either?

Does this only apply to mothers and not fathers?

everlong Sat 23-Mar-13 14:02:57

So bunnies all the mothers that leave their children don't love them as much as your daughter.

Sounds unhealthy.

everlong Sat 23-Mar-13 14:04:23

And I'm sorry but your daughter isn't fine if she won't leave her baby with anyone.

Floggingmolly Sat 23-Mar-13 14:04:37

Wait till the baby is two. She won't be able to get to the pub fast enough. grin

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 14:12:15

Probably not-her experience of mothering is being overprotective. I dare she is one of those mothers who makes a virtue out of 'I never go out'-other people can cope with a child for a couple of hours!

Greythorne Sat 23-Mar-13 14:12:43

I live in a country that is not my 'home' country (so, similar to your DH) and I will not let my DC go on residential school trips during the primary years as in my adopted country, adults' attitudes to children are so much at odds with mine, I would be very worried.

I accept to send my children to school here, to follow the rules, to slot in with what most parents here do. But I won't let other people take her on a residential trip as that is too far out of my comfort zone. I already make a Herculean effort to fit it here.

What's culturally acceptable in one place is not necessarily acceptable elsewhere.

Maybe your husband feels the same.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 14:27:32

He obviously does,Greythorne, but his wife and DD feel differently and have no need to fit in with the norms of a country they don't live in.
Since he has already said 'you send her then, fine' -he has agreed.I would just take the words as he said them and make arrangements.

Greythorne Sat 23-Mar-13 14:31:46

My point is that people are saying he is being unreasonable, he is an arse, doesn't he want her to be independent etc.

He might just feel a residential trip is unnecessary at this at this age.

Different strokes for different folks and all that.

He doesn't sound like an arse to me.

Pandemoniaa Sat 23-Mar-13 15:21:27

hasn't ever had any difficulty going somewhere if she wanted to.

Well clearly she did if you weren't prepared to allow her away from your somewhat suffocating clutches.

thebody Sat 23-Mar-13 15:38:41

Hi op, I understand your Dhs attitude.

Our dd was involved in a horrific accident a year ago on a school trip. Have posted about this before.

We let her go to Paris this year with the same school.

She wanted to go with her friends and we had to get over our own feelings of horror and let her go.

If we can do this so can your dh.

Goldmandra Sat 23-Mar-13 15:43:25

Why can't people just accept that others' parenting styles can be different but still OK?

Some people choose to or have to hand their children over to somebody else from being very tiny, send them for sleepovers at grandparents' houses as babies so they can go out for meals, etc and that's fine if it works for them.

Other people don't do it, either because their children aren't comfortable with it (as in my case) or because they, themselves don't like it and that's OK too. If someone chooses to be there for their baby or child 24/7 that is driven by their relationships and personality. It should be OK for them to do that. I can't think of any adults who are still living at home because their parents didn't let them do sleepovers as a child.

I don't understand why we need to imply that people who make different choices either don't love their children enough or are suffocating them.

If our children are individuals and we are individuals, we will make individual choices. Thank heavens we do because I don't want to live in a world where we all do the same.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 15:52:05

He might just feel a residential trip is unnecessary at this at this age

Beyond clothing, food and a roof over your head nothing is actually 'necessary'. Birthday parties, presents, going swimming, having a holiday etc are not 'necessary' but people do them. The norm in this country is that children from about 8yrs go on residential trips. If you come from abroad and are more than a visitor then you go with the norm. I had a friend who took her family to live in US-the intention was to stay there. There was a lot that she and her DH didn't like that was the norm with US children. They came back to UK-they felt that it wasn't fair to bring DCs up in a country if you were going to make them odd by sticking to what was the norm in your own country and not letting them take part.
Over protective parents are always going to insist it is in the DCs best interests-no matter what anyone says.

LoopaDeLoopa Sat 23-Mar-13 15:53:21

b4bunnies Seriously, you booked into a B&B where your DD stayed? Really?

idshagphilspencer Sat 23-Mar-13 15:53:44

My bil still lives at home , has few friends, no job and poor social skills for some reason mil chose to keep him so close to her that he now can't cope without her. He is 35. It does happen Goldmandra sad

WorriedMummy73 Sat 23-Mar-13 15:56:14

DD (now 11) has had one overnight trip and two two-night trips since being in Juniors. I made it entirely her choice each time. I explained that we would be unable to collect her if she got homesick, etc and let her have a think. When she decided she wanted to go, I paid for the trips. I think it's important to take into consideration what they want to do as well as what we want to impose on them. I did come across parents who were very 'we won't be letting them go' and their children were not happy! Yes, trips aren't necessary, but if they want to go and they'll be in safe and secure hands, and it's affordable, why deny them?

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 15:56:17

Other people don't do it, either because their children aren't comfortable with it (as in my case) or because they, themselves don't like it and that's OK too

If the child isn't comfortable with it then don't do it. If you don't like it (and it is perfectly reasonable like a weekend with granny, a Brownie camp) and the child wants to do it then hide it from them. Mine have done lots of things that I don't like e.g. rock climbing, caving-but I would never say so-it wouldn't be OK-it is my problem to deal with and not their problem.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 15:59:14

DS2 was terrible at staying away from home-he wanted to go, but we often collected him at about 11pm, without making him feel bad about it.Gradually he got better and was absolutely fine and confident. It would never have happened had we said 'DS is a homebird he doesn't do trips.'

Hulababy Sat 23-Mar-13 16:02:48

Well done thebody. I remember reading your posts before and the incident your DD was involved in sad Very brave decision by you to let DD go on another trip relatively soon after too. You must have been on edge the whole time. I hope your DD had a lovely time with her friends and it is has in someway helped her, not get over, but maybe move on a little and build some new good memories of school trips away.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 16:05:47

Some people put their DCs through miseries that are entirely unnecessary-like dripping tears as they get on a coach rather than cheerfully waving them off.
I remember one year 6 DD who was in a terrible state because she really, really wanted to go on the school residential week,but she was nervous. She kept saying to me 'I haven't even done a sleep over' and you think what was the mother thinking of -why hadn't she let go gradually. In the end she went and had a wonderful time but she went through hell first because as someone put it 'Mrs X keeps those girls tied to her apron strings'. She was most likely the sort of mother who hadn't been out for 11 yrs because she wouldn't get a babysitter.

thebody Sat 23-Mar-13 16:26:32

Ah thanks hulababy, she had a lovely time and its helped both the girls and the parents to take the steps needed to rationalise and recover.

Hulababy Sat 23-Mar-13 16:31:10

That's great to her thebody. I hope it continues for them, and you too.

Goldmandra Sat 23-Mar-13 16:50:01

idshag

How do you know that it isn't because he is like this that she didn't push him to do more? Perhaps he would have been like that anyway and the support he gets living at home with his mother is what enables him to cope.

IMO if children feel suffocated they fly the nest and keep their distance when they are old enough. I doubt that your MIL could have stopped him making friends by keeping him close.

It's very easy to criticise other people's parenting when your are judging it against the needs of your own children, not theirs.

Hulababy Sat 23-Mar-13 16:55:38

Goldmandra I think it is very different if the child is the one making the choice not to go. But when the child is keen to go but it is one or both parents trying to restrict them, that's where the problems lie. And when one parent is happy for it to happen and the other the opposite it is even more so. Which parent "wins?" Or maybe sometimes it really is best for the child (the OP's dd is 9y after all, not a baby) to decide.

everlong Sat 23-Mar-13 16:57:32

thebody you and your dd are very brave, I'm really pleased that she wanted to go on the trip but also that you let her. It would have been easy for you to resist. X

Goldmandra Sat 23-Mar-13 17:05:56

Hulababy I was bemoaning the fact that posters always start accusing each other of being terrible parents when it becomes apparent that their parenting styles are different.

We all make different judgments because we are different people with different children. People are not wrong simply because they make different decisions.

In the OP's case I think she's done the right thing by being open with her DH about her views and her intention to take him at his word and send her DD off on the trip.

There may be other families where both parents decide they don't want the child to go because this isn't normal and run of the mill in their culture. It's a shame that their children miss out but it doesn't make them bad parents and the children concerned may have different opportunities because of their parents cultural background which children from other cultures miss out on.

pointythings Sat 23-Mar-13 17:46:56

Goldmandra I do actually have a problem with parents who won't allow a child to go on residentials for spurious reasons. They aren't acting in the best interests of their child, they are putting their own fears ahead of what is best for their child. Being the only one who doesn't go on one of these trips may not be an enormous issue from an adult perspectgive, but from a child's pov it is enormous.

I think that if you choose to live in a country where this kind of thing is common, and send your child to school there, then you have to adapt. Just as you have to learn the language, obey the laws, and all that. And I say this as someone who is not native to the UK.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 17:52:15

* But when the child is keen to go but it is one or both parents trying to restrict them, that's where the problems lie*
That is indeed the problem. I agree 100%with pointythings.

The smothered DD that I know has gone to the other side of the world to live-presumably to get out of any 'obligations'-she won't see them very often now.

Goldmandra Sat 23-Mar-13 18:18:53

The smothered DD that I know has gone to the other side of the world to live-presumably to get out of any 'obligations'-she won't see them very often now.

Exactly. These parents might damage their future relationships with their children by restricting their activities but they won't affect their development and make them unable to leave home or be independent. My MIL is reaping the benefit of doing exactly that right now. DH lives 150 miles away and visits about twice a year. BIL lives in Sydney. They aren't damaged. They just cut the strings themselves when they were ready.

Countries where it isn't normal to send children away for overnights don't produce whole generations of adults who are tied to their mothers' apron strings, unable to function independently.

pointythings do you really feel entitled to decide how much risk other parents should expose their children to? Parents who feel that these residentials are too risky are doing what they believe is best for their child just as you are by sending yours. You feel differently from them and therefore feel free to label them bad parents. Why not just a accept that they are making the judgments which are appropriate to their own situations?

It's a shame for the children to miss out but it's not a total disaster. Mine missed out last year because the school staff wouldn't make provision for her additional needs and I didn't feel able to encourage her to attend without that provision. She was sad but she got over it and this year she's at a better school who will do what it takes to enable her to attend.

lljkk Sat 23-Mar-13 18:33:38

Could you elaborate, Greythorne? Very intrigued.

pointythings Sat 23-Mar-13 18:44:52

Goldmandra yes, I do. Where parents decide, as in your case, that the school is not offering provision for additional needs then I have no problem, but when the grounds are entirely spurious, based on sentiment and not on risk, then yes. I don't label them bad parents, I label them parents who are incapable of acting appropriately and sensibly in this particular situation. And they need to take responsibility for the consequences of their behaviour.

What you did for your DD was right and based on what was best for her, but the OP has not mentioned additional needs, and her DH's reaction is entirely emotional and not based on any rational argument. If we all stuck to 'but we never used to do it this way' we'd all still be stuck in the stone age. If you choose to send your child to a UK state school, you have to be prepared to adapt to that environment and engage fully.

Goldmandra Sat 23-Mar-13 19:01:59

Well I guess that's where we differ.

I can see the value in school residential activities so I support my children in attending. However I don't see the need to send babies or toddlers off to sleep with grandparents overnight from a very young age, just to get used to being away from me so I didn't do that bit.

I don't feel free to judge parents who do send their babies to sleep with their grandparents when they are tiny and I don't feel free to judge those who don't think it's appropriate to send their 9 year olds away with their schools either.

I make different decisions from other parents but that doesn't mean I'm right and they are wrong.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 19:53:04

Exactly. These parents might damage their future relationships with their children by restricting their activities but they won't affect their development and make them unable to leave home or be independent. My MIL is reaping the benefit of doing exactly that right now. DH lives 150 miles away and visits about twice a year. BIL lives in Sydney. They aren't damaged. They just cut the strings themselves when they were ready

I prefer to undo them slowly so there is no need to have an abrupt cutting. Of course mine might emigrate-they are perfectly free to do so-but the prime object will not to be get away. The DD in question knows perfectly well that her parents expected her to live close by-not get married and have grandchildren so far away that once every 2 years is the best they can hope for, and probably once every 5 years being realistic.

However I don't see the need to send babies or toddlers off to sleep with grandparents overnight from a very young age, just to get used to being away from me so I didn't do that bit

That wasn't the purpose-it was for both sides to have a lovely time without me.

As a primary school teacher, where the whole class were going I would be judgemental and say you were wrong (unless your DC didn't want to go-which is entirely different).

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 19:54:33

If she doesn't do the 2 days at 9yrs then a week in yr 6 will be more difficult and so will any secondary trips.

exoticfruits Sat 23-Mar-13 19:56:00

Even my stay at home DS enjoyed staying a night with granny-it was just home from home.

pointythings Sat 23-Mar-13 20:09:58

Goldmandra I didn't 'send' mine anywhere until they started school trips. DD1 had one in Yr2 - just one night, within half an hour of home. She's never been away from us overnight at that point but she was desperate to go, so we let her. She loved it.

I really think that in cases like this, where the trip is safe and there are no SEN or other health/risk reasons barring the way, the child's wishes have to be paramount. The OP's DD wants to go, the family can clearly afford it, she should be allowed to go - the father has voiced not a single reasonable objection, just unreasonable ones. Yes, I'm judging him. He deserves it.

Goldmandra Sun 24-Mar-13 01:37:02

Exotic Of course you'd prefer to undo the apron strings slowly! You've totally missed the point I was making to those who were suggesting that suffocating children prevented them from becoming independent.
You should absolutely do what you believe is right for your children. I'm also sure you had your own very good reasons for sending them to sleepover at GP's when very young. That is exactly how it should be because you were doing what was right for your own family.

I would be judgemental

Yes, I'm judging him

Well I suppose at least you're honest about it.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 07:03:37

I never did say that it stopped them becoming independent. I said that it did one of two things- they either got their freedom and stayed well away or they were scared to go out in the world. I know both sorts. The example I gave is the most independent young woman I know- but she went to get away and make sure that she couldn't get back often.
Of course a teacher would be judgemental if the whole class was going, the DC was keen to go and yet had to have 2days left in school with another class because mother couldn't bear to be parted - and then had to put up with all the DCs talking about it when they got back- with all the pictures up on the classroom wall etc. + the worry about the next trip and the fact that they might well miss it again because mother thought you too young. The school would not run the trip if the DCs were too young. They are age appropriate trips.

SanityClause Sun 24-Mar-13 07:47:52

Both my DDs have been on a music tour with school, part of which was to sing on the stage at Disneyland Paris. The girls who went were in year 6 and 7. (They didn't go together, the tour is run every year.)

Part of the trip involves being free to go around the park in groups, going on the rides etc. The groups must be of four or more, and they must check in with a teacher at specified time intervals during the day.

On both occasions, parents turned up at the park. (To be fair, in DD1's year, one girl had a severe medical condition, and the mother was very discreet, and kept herself unseen, but another mother turned up "to watch".)

In DD2's year, the mother of her close friend turned up with her grandmother, and her younger sister, and surprised them. (They thought it was unfair that the little one didn't get to go. I thought she would get her turn in a few years.)

The girl was mortified, as you can imagine! All the girls really pitied the children whose parents came along.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 08:43:46

You would want the ground to swallow you up if you were the DC! Quite mortifying.

Goldmandra Sun 24-Mar-13 09:07:41

exotic others have posted opinions on this thread too.

I'm sure you will continue to feel justified in continuing to judge parents who have different values from your own, whatever I say so OK, judge away.

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 10:40:44

Will do. grin

Goldmandra Sun 24-Mar-13 12:23:36

Fine! [flouncing off emoticon] smile

Numberlock Sun 24-Mar-13 12:29:15

Add me to the list of people judging him too if you like. There's no valid reason for his objections so is the OP going to face this every time the poor daughter gets the chance to try a new experience?

What will happen when her friends start having sleep overs? Or she wants to join brownies and go on camping trips? Etc etc.

Goldmandra Sun 24-Mar-13 13:14:28

Add me to the list of people judging him too if you like

It's not particularly him I was talking about Numberlock. I was just saddened by posters upthread accusing each other of not loving their children or suffocating them because people made different judgements about how much to let go and when.

I really hope the OP manages to get her DH to see the benefit of the activity and they can come to an agreement that works for their particular family, including the child concerned.

thegreylady Sun 24-Mar-13 13:27:02

My son [English] is married to a Turkish lady and they have a dd who is now 13.The school have had at least two residentials to places of historic interest.Parents were given the option to go along and pay for hotel accommodation nearby.Some did but most didn't.My dd-i-l is a teacher at the school so went along anyway but she told me she would definitely have let dgd go without hesitation.Dgd regularly has sleepovers with her friends and they with her.She has had overnights with relatives since she was a baby.
In Turkish culture it is unusual for children not to stay with their grandparents fairly frequently.
I know Turkish fathers tend to be very very protective of their daughters but I have have never heard of one objecting to all sleepovers.

changeforthebetter Sun 24-Mar-13 13:33:38

DD is going on an overnight trip this week. She is fragile at the moment (CAHMS referral pending which school know about) She may wet the bed (school know), is highly unlikely to brush either hair or teeth but keeping her off the trip would be incredibly isolating for her. Yes, I will worry about her but she needs to share experiences with her school friends. I trust her teachers and she will be less than an hour's drive away. Talk to the head or deputy and make an appointment for him to see them.

Goldmandra Sun 24-Mar-13 13:39:50

is highly unlikely to brush either hair or teeth

I think that's normal for these trips isn't it? grin

TaperJeanGirl Sun 24-Mar-13 13:42:34

I will be the lone voice agreeing with you husband, my dd is 8 and I certainly won't let her go on a residential next year, overprotective maybe, there's still not a chance in hell I will pack my child off to spend 2 nights with adults I don't know, and she doesn't do sleepovers at school friends either, only with very close family, it's never come up so far but I am dreading next year sad

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 13:52:17

I expect you would be dreading it-she is going to be very upset and she will have to spend her time with another class with everyone asking her why she didn't go. They must be teachers at school that she is going with -are you saying they will be abusive? hmm that you don't trust them? If I was still a Brownie leader I would not be at all happy at giving up my time for free when the mother didn't trust me on a camp. I can cope with 8yr olds-and if I couldn't I would phone the parent. It will come up more and more in the next few years.

FrauMoose Sun 24-Mar-13 13:54:33

I think parenting is generally quite scary but we decide to direct our particular fears to one or two situations, because that makes the overall fear more controllable/manageable. For example we have decided that strangers are dangerous and that children are at particular risk when they are not being cared for by close family members.

My partner does child protection work and I have volunteered on a phoneline for people who have survived abuse. So I'm aware that far, far more children get abused by family members than - say - strangers abducting them. So I'm not unduly worried by school trips. One of my most treasured possessions is the excited postcard my child wrote me from her Year 5 residentials.

I think one of the most common ways in which children are hurt relates to road traffic accidents. However most parents will take their children out in the car thinking, 'This is a perfectly safe thing to do'. There are no agonised Mumsnet debates on, 'Would you drive your kids up the busy motorway to go to the theme park.'

idshagphilspencer Sun 24-Mar-13 13:57:50

excellent post frau

exoticfruits Sun 24-Mar-13 14:05:29

Very sensible Frau-a lot of people seem to have lost the ability to risk assess.

cory Sun 24-Mar-13 15:00:21

As a foreign parent I can kind of empathise with the OP's dh's reaction of "Oh I don't see the need for this because there is no need for it in my culture".

It's a kind of desperate clinging on to the life you left behind, the parent you thought you'd be (in your country), the child you though you'd have (one that belonged to your culture).

But really, it is very parent centered, all about us rather than the child. As foreign parents, we have to accept that once we have chosen to have children in another culture, that is the culture they are growing up in and they need as many opportunities to be part of that as they would to be part of our culture, had we stayed in our own country.

cory Sun 24-Mar-13 15:15:22

Imo the "everybody has their own parenting style" is fine as long as the dc are little: a 6mo or a toddler isn't really going to notice if he is different from everybody else.

Once your dc get towards the secondary school stage, you have to take into account that it isn't just about your style of parenting versus other people's style of parenting: your dc will also start developing ideas of their own as to the kind of people they want to be.

Obviously, you need to stick to moral principles, of course, whatever happens, but I also think you need to distinguish between principles and parenting preferences.

My parents weren't particularly good at doing this: they tended to treat everything that was specific to them- their honesty, their reluctance to socialise with others, their hard work ethic, their love of the opera, their fondness for the sea and boating, their dislike of modern culture- as if they were all moral principles.

Didn't matter to my younger brother and me, who were happy to go along with the opera and keeping ourselves to ourselves, but it was horribly confusing for my elder brother who had totally different preferences and really was more comfortable around his peers and their pursuits, but felt inferior and ashamed about it.

I have tried to be more open-minded about the fact that e.g. my dc want to socialise in a way I never wanted. We discuss the risks but I would never try to hold them back just because I can't see the value of what they want. They are old enough to know what they want and my experience has to be used to help them to do it safely rather than tell them it is worthless.

idshagphilspencer Sun 24-Mar-13 15:35:28

well said cory

SooticaTheWitchesCat Mon 25-Mar-13 12:01:02

"I live in a country that is not my 'home' country (so, similar to your DH) and I will not let my DC go on residential school trips during the primary years as in my adopted country, adults' attitudes to children are so much at odds with mine, I would be very worried.

I accept to send my children to school here, to follow the rules, to slot in with what most parents here do. But I won't let other people take her on a residential trip as that is too far out of my comfort zone. I already make a Herculean effort to fit it here.

What's culturally acceptable in one place is not necessarily acceptable elsewhere.

Maybe your husband feels the same. "

Greythorne, that really is how he sees it, he isn't just purely being difficult, it is just really beyond his understanding why we in England would want to let our children go away without us as that isn't what he has ever come accross before.

"How can you even stay married to someone with these kind of values?? <baffled> "

Really Numberlock, as you have no idea about my marriage apart from this one thing that we are in disagreement about I don't think your comment is of any help at all!

Anyway, the deposit is now paid.

edwardsmum11 Mon 25-Mar-13 12:03:03

Yanbu, he sounds like a dinkus.

LaQueen Mon 25-Mar-13 13:32:47

"Hulababy I was bemoaning the fact that posters always start accusing each other of being terrible parents when it becomes apparent that their parenting styles are different."

Gold I'm not necessarily saying that suffocating, self centered parents are terrible, there are certainly worse traits they could display...however, they are still selfish and suffocating towards their children - and, they are putting their own selfish, spurious needs to feel in control and safe before the feelings of their child.

And, I will always judge that type of parent, and find them wanting.

LaQueen Mon 25-Mar-13 13:38:15

"she has a baby whom she loves too much to leave... "

B4bunnies sorry, but that's a crock of shit.

It is precisely because I do love my DDs so much, that I want them to feel that (within reason) the world is a great place for them to explore...and I wanted them to grow up spending time with family and friends, so they could learn and benefit from other's experiences/attitudes...and I wanted them to forge close bonds with family and friends, so that way they would have even more people to like and love them...

RaisingGirls Mon 25-Mar-13 13:43:28

I missed a school trip when I was in Year 5/6 (can't remember exactly which) because my parents couldn't afford to send me. I was the only one who didn't go. It didn't scar me for life, BUT I had been on Brownie Pack Holiday before, so I had stayed away from home.

I hope you and your DH can resolve this and that when your DD comes home brimming with excitement and wonderful tales of her trip, DH will see it was worth the worry. smile

CandidaDoyle Mon 25-Mar-13 13:45:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CalamityKate Mon 25-Mar-13 13:51:29

Totally agree with LaQueen.

Statements like that really annoy me.

Similarly "The house is a shithole because I'm far too busy interacting with my children to do housework" and other such "I'll turn a negative into a positive if it kills me" statements.

LaQueen Mon 25-Mar-13 13:54:18

Cal I call it Making a smug sounding virtue, out of what is actually a sad reality/necessity.

CalamityKate Mon 25-Mar-13 13:56:49

Oh yes that's far better!

LaQueen Mon 25-Mar-13 19:44:46

Cal you see it an awful lot IRL, and an awful lot on MN, too. Very transparent.

Yfronts Mon 25-Mar-13 20:51:31

what exactly is he worried about?

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