Note: Please bear in mind that whilst this topic does canvass opinions, it is not a fight club. You may disagree with other posters but we do ask you please to stick to our Talk Guidelines and to be civil. We don't allow personal attacks or troll-hunting. Do please report any. Thanks, MNHQ.

To be raging at Dispatches "rich and on benefits"

(476 Posts)
crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:10:14

It's talking about pensioners and all they get from the welfare state regardless of income or savings. Cue clip of David Scameron saying he won't touch their benefits.

NinaNannar Mon 18-Mar-13 20:11:01

i turned it off.

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 20:11:47

Repeat after me "do not watch Dispatches" grin

It's always daily mail-esque tripe imo, poorly researched and overly dramatic

Que 100 threads from people having seen this programme in a rage about all the 'scroungers' living it up. hmm angry

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:12:47

BreasticlesNTesticles It doesn't change facts though. Btw what a great username!

Well it would be unfair to ask anyone to pay the NI contributions if there was no chance of a pension because they had saved, wouldn't it?

JaquelineHyde England Mon 18-Mar-13 20:16:58

The title of the programme is ridiculous but the content is spot on.

I am sick of everyone whinging on about people ripping off the welfare state and we have very, very rich pensioners having money thrown at them just because they vote and every Government is too scared to do anything about it!

Make pension aged benefits means tested and then re-invest the money into the welfare state to help the really vulnerable.

Jesus Christ Peter Stringfellow couldn't even give his money back when he asked angry

HollyBerryBush Mon 18-Mar-13 20:18:06

It's talking about pensioners and all they get from the welfare state regardless of income or savings. Cue clip of David Scameron saying he won't touch their benefits.

Do you want the government to take the pensioners benefits?

I'm not sure what your rage is all about really

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:18:29

It's not the pension. It's the winter fuel allowance, cold weather payments, free prescriptions, free eyes tests, £10 Christmas bonus for extremely wealthy individuals. Where is the justice in DLA being abolished, child benefit being means tested, a bedroom tax be introduced when wealthy people are promised immunity from the welfare cuts?!

bigkidsdidit Mon 18-Mar-13 20:19:34

my dad spent his winter fuel allowance having his new jag valeted hmm

CityGal29 Mon 18-Mar-13 20:21:09

This is so true! There are 5 peolple in my / husband's family in their 80s/ 90s, all on fantastic pensions, the women on 3 of then, getting free tv licences etc. it's crazy!!

Right okay, I don't know where I stand with that actually... confused

survivingwinter Mon 18-Mar-13 20:21:33

About time this seemingly taboo subject was addressed. Not a day goes by when I don't feel mad about how little pensioners and baby boomers (the well off ones) have suffered during this downturn. All my parents friends are living it up - foreign holidays, home improvements, new cars...

Nothing will be done about it - the grey vote is sacred.

TeamEdward Mon 18-Mar-13 20:22:30

My dad did the same bigkids!

stormforce10 Mon 18-Mar-13 20:22:37

To be fair they are looking at pensioner poverty now

it was irritating to start with though

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 20:23:39

this is something i have raged about for ages. all my friends and i have very comfortable parents (own property in barnes and chiswick and have great pensions etc). my parents go on about other people on benefits but when i point out they do not need their benefits they get defensive. also it is their generations fault we are in this housing mess. they 'earned' money by inflating property prices and left the rest of us fucked.

it should all be means tested imo.

YouTheCat Mon 18-Mar-13 20:24:18

But we all know that if they did means test state pensions, it would be the middle and lower end people who would be missing out. It wouldn't affect the truly rich anyway, whether they got a state pension or not.

It's already bad enough that they take people's family homes.

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 20:25:17

Why thank you!

I can't comment directly as I would have to watch the programme, and past experience tells me I will get very shouty.

However, I agree that winter fuel allowance and cold weather payments should be means tested, my DP's need neither for example.

However, when you move into free medical care, then that would be bound up in NI contributions and the fact pensioners no longer pay into the contributory fund. However, they have to have paid a minimum to obtain these "benefits" so I would argue that is fair. Otherwise we would be in a situation where healthcare would not be free if you earned a certain amount for example.

timidviper Mon 18-Mar-13 20:25:57

I think what I find infuriating is the attitude of these people that they are entitled to this money whether they need it or not. One chap said that he was worried that if they cut pensioners' benefits the money might go to people who don't deserve it.

I was also extremely irritated by the chap who said he had earned every penny and luck had nothing to do with it so no acknowledgement of the advantages a booming economy gave their generation. I'm sure I read recently that most baby boomers retiring now have had more out of the system already by the time they retire than they have ever paid in.

OddBoots Mon 18-Mar-13 20:28:17

Oh it's all feeding into the 'divide and conquer'.

Domjolly Mon 18-Mar-13 20:29:56

My FIL always go for a nice dinner with there winter fuel alownace confused and he is very well off

aquashiv Mon 18-Mar-13 20:30:33

Cue clip of David Scameron saying he won't touch their benefits
The older generation vote. He wont touch them. That is politics.

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:31:27

What fucks me off is the most is Scameron's "we're all in this together" but he forgot to add that he's excluding the wealthy penisioners.

Corygal Mon 18-Mar-13 20:31:45

Trouble is, lots of pensioners are asset-rich (housing) but cash poor. So if you means-tested them, you'd have to count in their housing & by implication boot them out of their homes if they were to get anything.

I don't think even the few non-pensioners who vote would fall for that.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 20:32:28

Unless we are unlucky, we will all be pensioners one day. I don't see anything wrong with pensioners getting benefits. We should all be able to expect something back from the pot we pay into towards the end of our lives.

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 20:32:30

Crashdoll, the cold weather payment is not a universal pensioners' benefit. Only those on income support or similar receive it. Youthecat , you are right about the withdrawal of other benefits hitting only the middle and lower end. As you age you start needing a whole host of medicines, and paying for these would be very hard on many pensioners.

My parents rage about it and they live in South Africa. There is a type of person who has manged to blag a big property overseas and with the exchange rate are able to live the good life and still claim benefits paid for by the UK tax payers.

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 20:33:19

yes timid. when my parents tell me they've put in the pot, i tell them they've used it! all the operations they've had (obviously necessary), education of their children, subsidised travel etc. I don't begridge this, but they seem to think they've still got money in the pot left over - i don't think so!

and yes i agree youthecat they should take peoples homes - if you mean council houses which are far too big or people paying for their care.

Corygal Mon 18-Mar-13 20:33:44

I agree with timid viper - this 'I earned it' drives me nuts. No, plenty of you sat on your arse while your house made you a million quid.

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:35:27

HintofBream Why can't prescription charges be means tested like they are for younger adults too? I pay a fortune and my grandpa in his £1.5 million home gets his for free.

Domjolly Mon 18-Mar-13 20:38:04

Yes i sure my gil didnt want this programme shown he is very very well off amd even claims for a free bus pass but drives FFS ne say you never know when i might need to jump on a bus

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:38:09

Clouds The fact that you think every pensioner has put into the pot is laughable. We are in a serious financial crisis. We are cutting back everywhere, why should pensioners be exempt?

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 20:40:49

i've put in the pot too, and so has dh, but we don't get child benefit (which is fine) - but why is it okay to take one universal benefit and means test it and not do it to all of them?

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 20:40:55

I don't think every pensioner has paid into the pot. But the ones that haven't should suffer the consequences of that while they are younger and still have the opportunity to do something about it. I don't think it's fair to target older people that can't do anything to increase their income.

sneezecakesmum Netherlands Mon 18-Mar-13 20:41:10

Pensioners do have their income taxed like everyone else and many (like me) provide free valuable child care, but I agree its ridiculous for people in Cyprus to get a winter fuel allowance! Means testing should come into in provided its not a case of taking off pensioners who are just comfortable and leaving them struggling to heat their homes, which is what I could see happening.

Wealthy parents who get child benefit with a joint income of £80K are taking the piss frankly!

charlottehere Mon 18-Mar-13 20:41:34

PIL get a top of the range new car every 6 months think, BMW, lexus and have a second new car too but still claim their free bus passes. Taking the piss..

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 20:41:47

i've just phoned my parents and ranted grin

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:42:43

What about disabled people who can't work to increase their income? Nope, don't care about them. Slash slash, abolish DLA, make PiP rules ridiculous, give ATOS another huge contract.

Orwellian Mon 18-Mar-13 20:43:04

Ok, well firstly, most pensioners worked all their lives and paid their tax and NI which would run into thousands. Secondly, the state pension is £104.75 a week which is £5447 per year. They could also possibly get up to £300 as Winter fuel allowance.

So, a pensioner who has worked for 40+ years and paid in thousands in tax and NI gets a) a pension from the state and b) winter fuel allowance which adds up to £5777 (if you say the winter fuel allowance is at the most £300). These are the two basic benefits that only pensioners get.

On the other hand, there are millions of people who haven't paid a penny into the system and have never worked or worked sporadically who are entitled to housing benefit/LHA (running into the thousands per month), jobseekers allowance, income support, child benefit, child tax credits, disability benefits, subsidised travel, subsidised childcare/nursery, free prescriptions, free school meals, free NHS treatment, mobility cars, social homes...the list goes on.

Why are you aggrieved by a few pensioners getting something back when most of them are not rich and have paid thousands into the system when there are literally millions of people who have never paid anything in or paid in very little, taking billions out of the pot?

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 20:43:10

Personally, I don't think it was ok to take that universal benefit and means test it. I'm strongly in favour of universal benefits. I don't understand why so many people want everything to be means tested, it is not right that the only people who can expect help from their government are the ones that pay in the least.

landofsoapandglory Mon 18-Mar-13 20:43:50

I have been raging about this for years as well.

All this "they paid in" is bollocks! It is not a frigging savings account. Did they not have their children educated, have they not used hospitals, libraries, the police, fire service, bin men, the roads, etc etc?

My DLA is on the line, PIL went out and bought a £7.5k sofa, on the way back they saw a £22k car they fancied so they bought it, cash! They really need help help with their heating bills, don't they?

Gideon was saying something yesterday on the Andrew Marr show, about bringing in the new, more generous flat rate pension sooner than planned to help those " who had done the right thing"! 'Cos I went out and got disabled on purpose, me! And the man who empties his bins who can't afford to,save deserves fuck all!

All in this together, my arse!

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 20:44:02

I'm told they "paid in" so deserve every penny and bollocks to everyone else. I get this lecture from my father, as opposed to the free child care.

I would like to know what I will get for all the money I have "paid in".

infamouspoo Mon 18-Mar-13 20:44:16

I think it should be means tested. My mum lives on pension tax credit of £110 per week so of course gets winter fuel allowance etc. My inlaws are on a combined pension of 50K, house worth over a million (which they didnt earn) and they get WFA, free bus pass, free scripts etc etc
No way should they be treated the same.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 20:44:17

I don't say that crashdoll. hmm

I don't agree with disability payments being cut.

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 20:44:51

If you get a state pension you have paid enough over the years in national insurance to qualify.

As an aside, it is often the lowest paid that don't earn enough on a weekly basis to get their NI "stamp" and so don't receive a state pension.

If pensioners were to be charged on prescriptions for example, then shouldn't under 16's as well if their parents earn over a certain amount?

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 20:45:58

There is a weird double standard here. If anyone suggests that benefits should not exceed the average wage or suggests some of those receiving benefits should not do so, they get thoroughly pasted. it is however seemingly OK to bash pensioners.

soverylucky Mon 18-Mar-13 20:46:07

My parents in law are a classic example of what is wrong with some of these benefits. They are in their mid 60's. They were educated to degree level for free. They then both worked - MIL gave up her job to be a SAHM. When dh was at school she returned to work on a part time basis. FIL was able to retire from a job in the public sector at 55. That was 33 years of employment. MIL retired at 60. They were able to purchase a large, comfortable family home on one income that tbh wasn't massive but the house prices in the early 80's were much more in keeping with earnings. Both benefit form free bus passes and free prescriptions. It annoys me when they don't see how lucky they have been. Dh and I will retire at 67. We started full time work at 21. That is 46 years of work! We live in a crap house in a rubbish part of town because it is all we can afford despite earning a fairly decent amount compared to some. We only finished paying student loans in the last couple of years. We were lucky in that we didn't have to pay tuition fees. I feel sorry for those who are just a few years younger than us. They have got it even worse.

charlottehere Mon 18-Mar-13 20:46:15

I don't get they paid in....they almost certainly used more than they put in.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 20:46:58

Where I live 'most' pensioners have not worked all their lives. Men worked, wives stayed at home generally.

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:47:53

Clouds I know you didn't say that but that's what the government has all but said. Also you said *"it is not right that the only people who can expect help from their government are the ones that pay in the least." but these are the vulnerable of society; elderly people, children, disabled people. There is a safety net for others, not enough I grant you but it is there.

Kiriwawa Mon 18-Mar-13 20:48:07

There are lots of lifelong conditions that are not eligible for free prescriptions either.

My sister has cystic fibrosis and needs to inhale ABs twice a day to prevent infection (and hospitalisation). She has to pay for her meds. It's a bit short-sighted because if she can't afford to do that (she can, but many CF sufferers can't), then she'll be hospitalised and the state picks up the (much bigger) tab.

infamouspoo Mon 18-Mar-13 20:48:29

Not all pensioners 'paid in' Orwellian. Many, mainly women, didnt work.

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 20:49:14

There is a weird double standard here. If anyone suggests that benefits should not exceed the average wage or suggests some of those receiving benefits should not do so, they get thoroughly pasted. it is however seemingly OK to bash pensioners.

I admit am judging. However, I am judging entitled wealthy pensioners who think they are immune from the welfare cuts.

landofsoapandglory Mon 18-Mar-13 20:49:44

HintofBream, Why does a pensioner who has in excess of £100k in the bank need Winter Fuel Allowance?

They don't, yet a single mother wrote to our local paper this week saying she is being asked to find almost £300 out of her benefits to pay towards her council tax! How on earth is that fair?

nkf Mon 18-Mar-13 20:50:06

I thought pensioners were, on the whole, quite badly off. Because most people don't earn enough in their lifetime for decent pensions. Are you sure they are rich? I mean, everyone seems to know a pensioner who takes six cruises a year. But then everyone seems to know someone on benefits with a flat screen TV who smokes and drinks and intends never to work. Are you sure it's not just another prejudice. And there is nothing to stop younger people from voting.

HollyBerryBush Mon 18-Mar-13 20:51:06

This a turn about for MN , attacking old people

Why does a pensioner who has in excess of £100k in the bank need Winter Fuel Allowance?

same reason CB is dished out I suppose - you earn it, you save it

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 20:51:11

It was the im alright jack attitudes of those pensioners in that golf club that pissed me off.
They were going on about how people just a decade or more younger than them were "scroungers"
They had it easier with housing and jobs than any other generation. They didnt have to compete to get a paying job from a company that uses workfare.
Can you IMAGINE the uproar if workfare had been around while they were still working.
i NEVER EVER thought id live to see the day when Peter fucking STRINGFELLOW put someone to shame but thats exactly what he did with the golf club pensioners.
And that one at the end laughing and saying "ooh id bet next years membership on it. Sickening.
And before anyone starts i dont mind them getting these benefits or at least some of these benefits.
Its their attitude about it and their attitudes towards others who havent been as lucky as them which STINKS!

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 20:51:49

You can make a voluntary contribution of £13 per week (ish) if you don't qualify for NI. You need 30 years contributions to obtain a state pension.

So if you don't work and don't pay any voluntary contributions, you will not get a state pension.

OddBoots Mon 18-Mar-13 20:52:09

Orwellian is that really all? I always thought pensioners could get HB and Council tax benefit too. And isn't there pension credit too, or has that gone?

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 20:53:16

I do wonder how many of those whinging about their affluent parents' million pound houses will refuse to accept the vast inheritance that will one day be coming to them.

Sorry land without the full story it is hard to comment.

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 20:53:32

Sorry, I should say that isn't the case if you are claiming benefits - in which case you would still be counted as contributing I think.

expatinscotland Mon 18-Mar-13 20:53:35

I watched it all. Sickening.

landofsoapandglory Mon 18-Mar-13 20:54:16

They have cut CB for higher rate tax payers Holly, so why not cut WFA? Why shouldn't pensioners have to face cuts like the rest of us? Disabled people are fair game, children are fair game, even disabled children are fair game. Why not rich pensioners?

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 20:54:42

not people who need the money Hint, but i think having pensioners be a sacred cow when there are a lot of them better off than most is ridiculous. Even if they have put thousands in the pot, they have used thousands too. so unless you see it as a savings account where you only get what you put in, it is not fair when others are really suffering.

(And to the poster who said about wealthy people with a joint income of 80k that isn't our case, DH earns just over the threshold and i can't afford to back to work because of childcare costs. Our outgoings are £££ because we can't afford to live in London but he pays £600 per month on fares alone. BUT i understand why we lost it, as i said fine, but then my dad and his mates - who are all loaded - don't get means tested at all.)

i would like the money to be ring fenced for pensioners and means tested, then give more to those who deserve it, that way pensioners are still getting it, it is just being distributed more fairly. if that makes sense.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 20:56:17

I didn't watch it as I knew it would stress me out, and now I'm reading all these comments, I'm glad I didn't. I have no desire to see a bunch of rich pensioners telling us how entitled they are, when everyone else on any other form of welfare is a scrounger.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 20:56:17

They are not a myth, I live in a town full of 6 cruises a year pensioners, all rattling around in huge houses.
My experience of wealthy pensioners is that most of them have no idea how lucky they have been. They do not seem very willing to help their children, or even empathise with them and understand the economic situation their children have to deal with.

Orwellian Mon 18-Mar-13 20:56:53

Many pensioners have private pensions which they paid into during their working life. I agree that the it is unfair that pensioners benefited hugely from house price rises but I think it is better to tax unearned wealth but continue with universal benefits rather than means testing which often affects those with few assets but a high private pension/income.

I also don't see why a few wealthy pensioners (they are far more poor pensioners than rich ones) getting something when they have paid in via tax and NI is so much worse than the hundreds of thousands, if not millions getting thousands of pounds in benefits each month who have never worked or worked very little. Why are pensioners an ok target when it comes to "benefits bashing" yet workless families with multiple kids are holy cows on Mumsnet?

infamouspoo Mon 18-Mar-13 20:57:06

'So if you don't work and don't pay any voluntary contributions, you will not get a state pension.'

No but you get the equivelent in pension tax credit plus housing benefit and council tax benefit. So a single pensioner, the poorest pensioner will get roughly 5K a year in pension tax credit at 104 a week (might be a bit more) then maybe £100 a week for a one bed housing association bungalow.
Not mch but better off than disabled people. Pensioners like that need winter fuel allowance etc.

ouryve Mon 18-Mar-13 20:57:50

Crashdoll, you shouldn't be paying much more than about a tenner or so a month for your prescriptions, no matter what you get prescribed. You can buy a pre-payment certificate.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 20:58:35

The only people in the big houses where we live are pensioners. All the families are in the two and three bed semis. They can't afford to pay the entitled boomer asking prices for their overpriced mansions.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 20:58:38

They don't, yet a single mother wrote to our local paper this week saying she is being asked to find almost £300 out of her benefits to pay towards her council tax! How on earth is that fair?

It's fair because pensioners in most cases have not spent their entire lives being subsidised by the state. It doesn't matter that much if plenty of women didn't work, they were being subsidised by their husbands, not other taxpayers. Whereas a single mother on benefits is being entirely funded by other people.

The more you try and take from the state, the more you have to lose.

Kiriwawa Mon 18-Mar-13 20:58:46

I think MN is terribly ageist. But there is no doubt that people of a certain generation (and I include myself in that as I'm pushing 50) have had it relatively easy compared to today's young people. A lot of that is down to luck though.

- We got our degrees for free. Today if you choose to go into HE, you could be looking at a 30-40k debt

- I bought my first flat after the 80s property crash because I was buying alone. My friends who were in a relationship got totally stung by the boom.
My 1 bedroom flat in London cost 56k and I was earning 18k as a PA. Wages for that kind of job have probably gone up 20%, property prices (even in this recession) have gone up 200%.

It's very, very fucked up

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 20:59:07

certainly not a myth, go to chiswick, hammersmith, shepherds bush, putney, wimbledon, barnes.

there certainly wont be any money left for me Hint! grin

infamouspoo Mon 18-Mar-13 20:59:30

Will those workless families with multiple kids become sacred when they reach 65 Orwellian. Just wondering...

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 21:00:07

A civilised society helps the vulnerable, not the rich.

Corygal Mon 18-Mar-13 21:00:20

The main drain on social services budgets is, of course, OAPs. Many more of them increasing annually in numbers, they live longer, etc.

The NHS refuses to admit how much of its budget is spent on the old - but they do admit it's more than 90 per cent.

Of course the current lot of pensioners haven't paid enough in - a lot of women living to 95 won't have paid anything much at all, while even income taxpaying men paid much less in real terms.

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 21:01:04

Thank you infamous I figured there must be something but didn't know what!

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:02:37

My PIL are abroad again. They will go away at least twice more before the year's out. Dh and I and the dc will go camping if we're lucky. But, the PIL vote tory so there is your answer.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:03:21

A civilised society helps the vulnerable, not the rich.

No, a civilised society helps all of its citizens, not just the poor.

Kazooblue Mon 18-Mar-13 21:04:26

Another rageing here.

The golf club pretty much sums it up.It's not just the wealthy Stingfellow types but the hoards of baby boomers who got us into this mess living it up full of entitlement. What me have to errr contribute.

Go to John Lewis,Waitrose etc they're all heaving with them enjoying their retirement because they deserve it.

My inlaws spend the best part of 30k on holidays,have 2 cars and all sorts of expensive hobbies.They haven't worked any harder than dp and I,mil has never worked a single day in her life.They don't need any benefits what so ever,yet we are constantly clobbered and feeling the pain.

They go Scott free.

Big mistake,Dave,big mistake.

landofsoapandglory Mon 18-Mar-13 21:04:33

CloudsandTrees she may be planning to go back to work and pay in a lot more in her life time. She could well have only been on benefits for 6 months.

I think pensioners who have managed to save should be grateful that they have been in that position, that they were not unfortunate enough to become chronically ill or disabled meaning that one of the partnership had to give up work, and that all their children were able bodied and healthy meaning they could carry on working. They shouldn't be looking down their noses at those less fortunate than themselves and thinking of them as 'scroungers!'

seriouscakeeater Mon 18-Mar-13 21:06:12

I didnt watch it but what makes me sad is that my nana is 82 worked since she was 14, worked hard all her life and hardly gets any thing, no free dental,no free glasses. No winter fuel nothing, she isnt rich either, just her pension from the job she had which she gets taxed heavily on. Her best mate has never worked and gets the lot. Free housing (lovely bungalow) free glasses and teeth pension, heating... sad
P.s i love nans bestie i dont begrudge her any thing, just that if you work/ have all ways worked you all ways get the short straw-- unless you are really well off, then u dont bloody need it.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:06:48

Yes, she might. In which case she will be able to pay her own council tax, as she should be doing.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 21:08:10

Why on earth should society help the rich? What help do they need?

They need a dose of reality, could we provide them with that?

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 21:08:30

This is interesting reading

It states that 40% of the NHS budget is spent on the over 65's, but this is anold report

luckybarsteward Mon 18-Mar-13 21:08:40

We are the 6th largest economy on the planet, the wealthiest of us have increased our wealth considerably since the "economic crisis". Our taxes, be they income tax or National Insurance, or VAT or the myriad other indirect taxes have gone to bail out global financiers. The social advances of free education, health care, varied social housing etc were gains made by the people who fought and lived through WWII, those that are left are the pensioners who deserve at least the very least what they get in benefits. Their children are the ones getting what's left of those gains now. That all those gains are being taken away gleefully, from pensioners, the unemployed, the sick, the young, the poor and with the apparent support of the public is shamefull.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:08:41

With you 100% kazooblue. Exactly the same boat here. With cuts to CB, no public sector payrises, loss of tax credits and increased pension contributions, we'll be about £500 a month worse off from April. That doesn't take into account inflation and the fact that our landlord has put the rent up. Pissed off doesn't start to cover it. I'm dreading Wednesday's budget, but as dh says, there can't be anything left to take from us now hmm

landofsoapandglory Mon 18-Mar-13 21:09:26

Seriouscakeeater your nan will be getting Winter Fuel Allowance. It is universal, they all get it!

infamouspoo Mon 18-Mar-13 21:09:31

i thought all over 65's got free NHS dental and glasses.?

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:09:59

Why on earth should society help the rich?

Because they are part of society, the same as everyone else. And they are quite an important part of society, what with being the ones that pay in the most money.

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 21:10:03

seriouscakeeater why doesn't your GP get a state pension and free prescriptions etc?

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 21:10:32

I struggle to understand why some seemingly highly intelligent people fail to acknowledge the financial crisis we are in and insist that the welfare state should help everyone. It is not what it was when Beveridge wrote his report post WW 2. He did not predict the situation we are in now.

Viviennemary Mon 18-Mar-13 21:10:57

You will all be old one day. And most pensioner benefits are means tested.

vivizone Mon 18-Mar-13 21:11:54

Am I the only person who really doesn't give a toss where benefits go? I have always worked but just can't master enough energy to care if the next person is getting shed load of 'free' money. I don't care how tired I am of working I would never want people to lose their benefit just because I have to work. It's actually stressing me knowing people are facing cuts. It will just cause more crime, more depression, everyone in each others throats and even more poorer kids. I would prefer to pay higher taxes so that people could keep their benefits. Mark my words, take away what little that people have, and we are ALL going to pay for it.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 21:12:34

Vivienne i think it was the ATTITUDE shown by the pensioners in that golf club that has pissed people off.

Kazooblue Mon 18-Mar-13 21:12:45

Oh don't you believe it Ihate,I'm sure they'll find something whilst cutting vat on Saga holidays or golf clubs probably.

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 21:12:58

MrsK, unlike the parents procrastinating refers to, we do understand how difficult it is for young people, which is why we have dished out hefty sums enabling our son to join your parents in Chiswick (but we are having a bit of fun with what's left)

landofsoapandglory Mon 18-Mar-13 21:13:59

When we're old Vivienne there won't be anything left to be means tested or not!

What irks me is, a few years ago on a MN chat I asked Harriet Harman about WFA for disabled people, she said my £46 a week DLA should cover myextra heating, and everything else! I'd love to know how!

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:16:38

I struggle to understand why some people think that the state should only help people who do little to help themselves.

The welfare state should exist to support pensioners and the disabled as by far the main priority. For everyone else, it should be a temporary safety net, and that's it.

As long as their are working age people choosing not to work, choosing to SAH because CTCs will support them in having children they can't afford themselves, choosing to work part time because benefits and the extras make them bring in the same amount of money, then pensioners are the least of society's problems.

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 21:17:24

Vivienne Most pensioner benefits are not means tested: free bus pass, free TV licence, WFA, free prescriptions, eye tests and dental treatment.

Kazooblue Mon 18-Mar-13 21:17:35

Oh and Vivienne yes we'll be old with buggar all,none of us will have the baby boomers life style so really if it's good enough for us I'm afraid it's good enough for them.

Even with taking their benefits away they'll still be massively better off.

The fact is we can't afford to keep them in lifetime NT membership,cruises and Waitrose ready meals any longer.

Tortington Mon 18-Mar-13 21:17:55

nobody 'pays in' to the value they take out, it doesn't work like that.

if someone aged 34 owned a house worth £300,000 and couldn't afford to live, heat it, eat etc. they should sell it.

just becuase you are 65+ doesn't make you exempt. sell it old lady - get a flat you can afford.

either you are poor and you get benefits becuase you need them

or
you
bloody
well dont

old people shouldnt be exempt

they are becuase they vote.

tories are bastards. bottom feeding cunts. i hate them. they let corporations away with avaoiding MILIONS AND MILLIONS in corporation tax.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 21:18:33

My stepmother (having never worked) is currently fuming because of interest rates, they can no longer have 3 holidays a year on the interest from their savings.

They expected to save up and then sit on it while even more money was given to them.

I loved the WWII generation, my grandparents and their friends were wise and kind, they expected very little. Nothing like this golf club / saga lot.

Viviennemary Mon 18-Mar-13 21:19:19

I missed it the programme. I can see why people get annoyed at rich pensioners who seem to be raking it in. But I do know some pensioners who have savings and only quite small private pensions and they have to count every penny. So don't qualify for pension credit. So I don't begrudge them winter fuel allowance and so on. I do care where benefits go and I want to see them go to those in need of benefits.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 21:19:48

Clouds i put a link in another thread about how a pizza company had 100 yes ONE HUNDRED people on workfare.
Something those golf club pensioners never had to do or compete with.

Working age people choosing not to work. what a load of bollocks.

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 21:19:50

Clouds So, we should continue wasting money on wealthy people because some people do little to help themselves. Remember: good health is not a given. One day you or someone you loves may find themselves needing support from the state.

MrsOakenshield Mon 18-Mar-13 21:19:54

my mum and my FIL are both fairly minted. My mum is outraged by the benefits cuts affecting families and children, and would be more than happy if she lost pretty much all her benefits - she doesn't need them. FIL, on the other hand says 'I've paid my taxes, I deserve them.' He also has zero need for them. He really didn't seem to understand the argument. This is a man who gets 70 grand a year from ONE of his pensions. To keep himself. None of his 4 children with families has a household income like this, very far from it.

One thing though - my mum's income comes from a number of sources - I can imagine that it would cost a hell of a lot of money to make pensioners benefits means-tested.

Tortington Mon 18-Mar-13 21:20:23
landofsoapandglory Mon 18-Mar-13 21:21:02

CloudsAndTrees, but the State are shafting the disabled. Did you know that under the changes to DLA if you can walk 20m with 2 sticks you won't qualify for mobility component, even of you collapse into a wheelchair or need oxygen?

But it's ok, as long as they keep the pensioners happy!

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 21:21:02

The thing with winter fuel allowance etc is that it would cost more to means-test it than it does to just have it available to everyone. I do think the baby-boomers have had a pretty good deal out of the welfare state, free tertiary education and so on, but I don't see what can be done about that. The housing crisis is a different matter though - people should be taxed on the assets they own, every year - they even manage to do this in the states, which is the most gung-ho neo-capitalist society you can think of.

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 21:22:33

Wallison They said that about CB too.

Kazooblue Mon 18-Mar-13 21:22:41

Erm they're means testing CB ( in a ludicrous unfair way).

HappyMummyOfOne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:23:38

I thought state pensions were based upon contributions, therefore only paid out if the person had paid in for numerus years? Not sure which benefits are universal but they should remain so just like child benefit should have.

Youngsters take far more out than pensioners benefit wise im sure, lots without ever making a contribution first to the pot.

Surely a pensioner who has worked all their life is entitled to help in their elderly years. Adults who could work choose not to and apparently thats ok and we should pay them for that choice so double standards at play.

Tortington Mon 18-Mar-13 21:24:15
Toasttoppers Mon 18-Mar-13 21:24:32

I didn't watch this programme I'm sure it was edited to make the blood pressure rise as much as possible.

Rather than loathe pensioners that are comfortable how about hating the policy makers and successive governments who have allowed house prices to rise at such a ridiculous rate. Why begrudge them their free University education, hate the people that introduced tuition fees. I am not a baby boomer btw in case your wondering. I have no idea how we will afford to send dc to University.

Divide and conquer, all politicians use it, scapegoating any section of society is dangerous. I know both well off and poor pensioners.

I personally disagree with means testing because people can always hide assets and it costs ridiculous amounts to administer. Means testing penalises the honest and rewards the asset hiding dishonest.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 21:24:48

Of course pensioners who need it should get benefits.

HintofBream you would not get on well in the golf club! Your son is very lucky.

bassetfeet Mon 18-Mar-13 21:25:09

The fuel allowance is used in my house for heating. It helps hugely as we are mostly at home 24/7 through illness . I feel so sad when I read pensioners being attacked for being baby boomers who have had it all so easy.
As in all life there is a huge variation in the demograph.
Agree that it should be tied in with pension credit .
A lot of us have strived hard to support our children with financial help and child care with what we have time and savings wise.[long gone]
Seems a bit pointless anyway owning your own home these days . It will be taken from you in care home fees .

infamouspoo Mon 18-Mar-13 21:25:17

WFA could be lined to pension tax credit easily enough

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:26:17

One day you or someone you loves may find themselves needing support from the state.

I appreciate that. But if it does happen, it won't be as a result of having children I have no way of affording. It will be for a reason that is worthy of state support.

I am in favour of the welfare state. Including pensions.

Tortington Mon 18-Mar-13 21:27:30

CB shouldnt remain universal - not sure why i should pay for some MC yummy mummy to have a latte with her chum whilst Annabel is at nursery.

ooohh....was that a total white wash of the MC world? welcome to custy's Daily Mail esq writing.

seriously though - CB element shoud be included in universal credit - if your poor enough to get UC you get a CB element. if not - hard titties

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:27:47

With more and more families struggling to buy and rent property, we need a land value tax now. This is one of the good elements about the libdems. Probably the only one though it has to be said. I wouldn't do a mansion tax on property over 2 million though, I'd do a collective property tax on all property owned. How is right that some people can own 2+ houses, while others can't afford one? This needs to be addressed and I will vote for the party that puts this in their manifesto, if what any of them say can be believed. Pensioner freebies should just be abolished and the pension should be increased for those in NEED.

MrsOakenshield Mon 18-Mar-13 21:28:17

of course many baby boomers had it good, they're laughing all the way to the bank - cheap housing, plentiful employment, family allowance, final salary pensions. Don't give a shit about the fact that the current generation (which will include their own children and their families) will never have it so good (yes, MIL and your DH, I'm looking at you here!), they don't think they should let go of a bean they're 'entitled' to. Grrrrrr. (And don't get me started on 'immigrants coming over here and taking all the jobs and having loads of children' or I will truly blow a gasket.)

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 21:28:45

Child benefit isn't being means tested in the traditional sense though - it's being cut through the tax system, which is what has led to the anomalies that many are criticising. And the reason they are doing it this way is that because to properly means-test it would cost more money than it saves.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:29:57

CloudsAndTrees, but the State are shafting the disabled

I know that, and as I've already said, I don't agree with that. I am capable of agreeing with one government policy while disagreeing with another.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:30:40

I agree with you custardo about CB. We lose some of it, as just over threshold. It makes me bloody livid that people on nearly twice our household income keep it. It should be incorporated into universal credit. That would also deal with the current anomalies with the single versus double income issue. They've included CB for the benefit cap so why not just merge it with universal credit?

Tortington Mon 18-Mar-13 21:30:41

worthy of state suypport - what like - being made redundant?

how about if you have three children, get divorced, work the same job for years, get made redundant.

bad single mother to three children - shudda kept yer leggs crossed love!! tut tut

Kazooblue Mon 18-Mar-13 21:31:04

No problem with CB being means tested if it is fair(it isn't at the moment),if it isn't cut from families not that much better off than those on tax credits and the same happens to other universal benefits.

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 21:31:26

ihategeorgeosborne, I agree with you completely on the land value tax issue.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 21:33:07

Im almost 40 but DH is 63. He was disgusted at the pensioners featured on the programme. He does not have that attitude at all. He appreciates how much easier it was then.
I posted something a little while ago on another thread about his working life during the 1970s i will see if i can find it.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 21:34:13

CloudsAndTrees - the deserving poor and the undeserving poor, that is workhouses rather than the welfare state.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:34:19

Yes, like two parents being made redundant. Not like one parent working PT or NMW and having three children.

Or conceiving children whilst already claiming non childcare child tax credits/income support/CT benefit.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 21:35:00

Custardo i fucking hate that phrase "should have kept your legs crossed" Sexist and mysogynistic in the extreme. Im old enough to remember Peter Lilleys attitude towards single mums in the late 80s/early 90s.

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 21:35:37

yes Hint, neither my DH's parents or mine (same as all friends) helped with housing, education, or anything because according to them 'they worked hard for what they had' they convince themselvs the house price rise was because of the extra value they put into it - not the over inflation of prices. DH's parents are also fuming about interest rates because they can live off the interest of their savings.

I think it is the ingratitude, the feeling they deserve it. They are a generation who have plundered and lived like teenagers, they've pulled the ladder up behind them and still have the cheek to moan about others claiming benefits. They laugh when i say i can't afford something. Like don't be ridiculous everyone has £200 to spend at the garden centre. Everyone i know in my parents generation are like that golf club lot. it boils my piss.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:36:32

that is workhouses rather than the welfare state.

Is it? confused

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 21:36:49

Boils my piss too.

Kazooblue Mon 18-Mar-13 21:36:58

Yup Mrs here too.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 21:37:07

Yes.

sheeplikessleep Mon 18-Mar-13 21:37:23

Can I also add that the system needs to be simpler. My gran is living off the pension alone and struggles to make ends meet, she spends hardly anything. It all goes on household bills. She also finds the system massively complicated, my mum is always trying to save her £10 here or there.

I think those guys in the golf club probably know exactly how to get their every penny back out.

The pensioners who really need it don't know what or how to claim. It needs to be simpler so that those who really need it get it and means tested. I got really frustrated with the woman on the bus, the ex-MP, with such a massive sense of entitlement.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:37:43

It just feels like this government is picking and choosing it's policies to keep the already very wealthy even wealthier. It has completely shafted everyone else. I have never been so worried about our future. Maybe that's what having children does to you, but I am ever so slightly terrified to be honest. I mean what next............hmm

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:39:27

Boils my piss too!

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 21:39:32

sheep I agree, I work with vulnerable older people and disabled people. I support them with benefit applications and I find it very confusing just trying to work out their entitlements.

TheCrackFox Mon 18-Mar-13 21:42:38

I really think that the writing is on the wall for Child Benefit, as soon as Universal Credit comes in it is a goner.

Not all baby boomers have had the life of luxury, there was a huge amount of unemployment in the 1980's, no real equal rights for women including no maternity pay and no tax credits. In saying that there also seems to be quite a lot of baby boomers who always had a job and then retired early at 58 with a massive final salary pension (thinking of FIL). I can't see how i can ever afford to retire and TBH I think our generation has been shafted to pay for their retirement. No political party has ever wanted to displease the BBs as the demographic is so huge.

lainiekazan Mon 18-Mar-13 21:43:39

I think things will change in the future. Probably not for the current baby boomers who will continue to have it good, but for those of us coming behind the current model is unsustainable.

As it is, care fees are not free. Mil and fil are both in homes, and both paying full fees which amounts to about £1500 a week. Needless to say, their savings and house will soon be gone. So those of you counting on your parents' big houses as an inheritance had better hope they go suddenly with a giant heart attack rather than linger on to age 110 in a care home. The trouble is, with improved health and drugs, not so many people are having strokes/heart attacks, but are hanging on by a thread for 20 years needing ferociously expensive care which the state (ie taxpayers - you and me) cannot afford.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:43:41

Oh, and I'm the only one on the bus who ever buys a ticket round here. It costs me large to take the kids on the bus. No change from a tenner. Then all the pensioners head to M&S to buy their succulent chicken breasts and ready mashed potato and a bottle of prosecco to wash it all down! Meanwhile, I head off to poundland and oxfam!! Then, I can't get a seat when I get back on the bus, even though I'm the only one who's actually bought a bloody ticket.

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 21:44:13

Crashdoll, TV licences are only free to the 75s and over, dental treatment is not free for pensioners, but don't let accuracy get in the way of a good rant.

Procrastinating I simply do not understand the mentality of parents who do not help their children out if they can afford it.
MrsK I don't play golf, thank God. grin

Mollydoggerson Mon 18-Mar-13 21:44:36

PISS IS ON THE BOIL HERE TOO.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:46:45

DH's parents retired at 50, although his mum never worked. They have good final salary pension and 3 properties and continually ask us if we think we might ever buy a house. Have seriously had enough of all this one sidedness.

crashdoll Mon 18-Mar-13 21:49:04

I stand correct, free dental is only for those on pension credit.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 21:51:07

Yes Yes ihategeorgeosborne I am the only one who pays the huge extortionate bus fare round here too.

lainiekazan I hear they are talking about capping care home fees to the first £75,000. My mum told me this via the Daily Express so not reliable.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 21:52:54

They are capping care home fees, and rightly so.

shock that people are begrudging pensioners a seat on the bus!

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 21:53:42

Hint - that's the problem tho, their mentality is that 'no one has helped them, they got where they did all on hard graft, so why should i help ANYONE'. but it's not true - as others have said - free education/apprenticeships, constant work (in the south at least), early retirement etc.

My parents got a grant to buy a house in 1980. they bought it for £11k, the same house is now valued at almost a million (they sold it a while back tho and bought a bigger one further out) . How could that ever be thru adding value? (unless they built a nuclear power station there of course...they didn't)

How's this for a Winter Fuel Allowance scandal?

A friend of mine sadly lost his dad in November (ish).

But because he was still alive when the deadline date passed, his family get the money.

The state is paying benefits to dead people and they are well aware of it shockconfused

lainiekazan Mon 18-Mar-13 21:54:54

I suppose wealthy pensioners do keep the economy going. Where would John Lewis be without smug 60-somethings wandering round buying household goods for the sheer hell of it? And Carnival Cruises has a giant new building here where I live, employing hundreds of people - and, of course, they employ thousands on their ships. There would be no business if it weren't for holiday-mad pensioners.

Mind you, I'd rather pensioners actually handed a bit of their dosh to their dcs. Fil has been retired for 30 years and he has never given any of his dcs one penny, whilst he and mil have shopped in M&S every day and taken five holidays a year. But... guess who now doesn't get too many visits in their care homes?

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 21:59:22

clouds, not begrudging pensioners a seat on the bus, just that I often get on with the dcs having paid nearly a tenner and we don't get a seat because it's full of pensioners. If they had to pay, they might not take up all the seats. I was talking to one the other day and she admitted that she uses it as she can and often doesn't need to go out, but likes to make use of her 'free' bus pass.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 22:03:03

My inlaws are wealthy, although they say they are asset rich and cash poor. I hate that saying, because I think do you really need 3 houses. My dad doesn't do too badly either. None of them have ever given us a penny. I don't expect it, but I do feel a tad pissed off when they come back from Australia after a 6 week trip and ask us if we are doing anything. The answer is always, we might go camping in August!

MrsKoala England Mon 18-Mar-13 22:03:10

i have one friend whose parents massively overpaid into their already generous pensions. feeding the kids beans/sardines on toast/pasta and butter, never going on holiday, second hand clothes. Then they retired on one of the largest pension for their sector (it was in the news) and now laugh at my friend - their dc - at how shrewd they were and rub their faces in the fact they have all these holidays and money.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 22:08:54

What's wrong with an old lady making use of her free bus pass?

Would you prefer her to sit inside her house alone for days without speaking to people just so that people who have to pay for the bus get a seat?

nkf Mon 18-Mar-13 22:11:11

Seriously, how come everyone accepts these I know a pensioner who hogs up the bus/owns three properties etc stories but not the stories about people who've never worked refusing to take responsibility. Both are anecdotal and I don't know if either are believable.

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 22:11:50

There's nothing wrong with it, I was just making an observation that people who pay often don't get a seat themselves, because they're full of pensioners having a day out.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 22:12:56

I can't understand their attitude at all.
Dh & I will get no inheritance but we were lucky enough to be born when we could just about afford a house and we were the last in to final salary pensions. If the pensions are still there when we are old EVERY PENNY we can afford will go to help the children, god knows they will need it.

CloudsandTrees where I live it is not a lonely old lady on the bus. It is a very active couple in their 60s with two cars on the drive at home.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 22:14:53

Excellent point, well made nkf

ukatlast Mon 18-Mar-13 22:15:13

QUOTE CLOUDS AND TREES:'They don't, yet a single mother wrote to our local paper this week saying she is being asked to find almost £300 out of her benefits to pay towards her council tax! How on earth is that fair?

It's fair because pensioners in most cases have not spent their entire lives being subsidised by the state. It doesn't matter that much if plenty of women didn't work, they were being subsidised by their husbands, not other taxpayers. Whereas a single mother on benefits is being entirely funded by other people.

The more you try and take from the state, the more you have to lose.'

What Clouds and trees said plus I would add those SAHMs contributed massively to a stable society/voluntary work and to the emotional welfare of their pre-school kids by not packing them off into daycare for hours on end a day - longer than school hours in fact.
The world has changed I get it but the desire for equality of misery in this thread is ridiculous.

I am sure there are many who don't bother with the bus pass etc etc my parents don't as they both still drive in their seventies.

catinboots Mon 18-Mar-13 22:15:25

My dad uses his state pension to pay for is brand new car

Mum uses hers to pay for their holidays

They lived off their private pensions (no mortgage)

They used the winter fuels payments to treat the dgcs

Even they know how fucked up it is

ihategeorgeosborne Mon 18-Mar-13 22:15:39

nkf, My PIL DO have 3 properties. I use the bus frequently and live in a high pensioner area, I therefore see them on the bus. Personally, I don't know anyone on benefits other than tax credits. This is based on what I know and certainly not anecdotal.

catinboots Mon 18-Mar-13 22:16:02

They are not n grateful though BTW

It's not anecdotal - 96% of Britains personal wealth is owned by the over 60's.

I'm surprised people aren't more incensed to be honest. The disparity is shocking. The ladder has been entirely pulled up behind them

nkf Mon 18-Mar-13 22:20:12

It is anecdotal. You have told us something about people you know. And everybody seems to believe you. But if someone posted about a single unemployed mother with six kids by two different men, there would be a lot of yelling about "benefit bashing" and jokes about goats.

I don't understand why one type of anecdote is accepted and another is derided.

expatinscotland Mon 18-Mar-13 22:20:24

'What's wrong with an old lady making use of her free bus pass?

Would you prefer her to sit inside her house alone for days without speaking to people just so that people who have to pay for the bus get a seat?'

What's wrong? Well, no. 1, 60 is not old. And, in our area, which is rural and has limited transport to begin with, the council has had to cut service even more to pay for plenty of active 60 somethings with comfortable private pensions, no mortgage, etc. to ride for free because they don't want to stump up for petrol.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 22:24:27

The ladder has been pulled up behind them, but they didn't do that on purpose. They had no more control over house prices and the benefits they get than any of us do now.

ukatlast Mon 18-Mar-13 22:25:13

How comforting to think that there is actually a benefit to ageing....if true that the politicians don't want to upset the elderly as an interest group. It would be great to think that were true...political power at last...in old age.

You all seem to have incredibly stingy retired parents as well - they aren't all like that for sure.....well maybe the Tory ones are lol....I wouldn't know.

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 22:25:22

nfk - there has actually been some research done into worklessness and very very few people have never worked. According to research done by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, despite all of the rhetoric of generations of the same family sitting idly on the dole their entire working lives, less than 0.1% of families have two generations who have never worked. And when they tried to find families with three generations who have never worked, they were unable to. So it's not an anecdote; it's a myth.

babybarrister Colombia Mon 18-Mar-13 22:26:58

When I started a discussion on this a couple of years ago saying all retirement benefits should be means tested, I got booed - I am glad more people now realise that there are lots of retired people getting money they simply don't need

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 22:27:25

I do realise that plenty of pensioners use their WFA for nice meals, days out or at duty free when they are going on holiday, but I don't see how that's any worse than people spending their benefits, including tax credits, on holidays, pets, or anything else they choose to spend it on. It's the same thing. Except one is allowed on MN, and the other apparently isn't.

Lol at 'they didn't do it on purpose'

Yes, they did - they voted for thatcher, for strike breaking, for idiotic wars, for workfare, for no house building for decades so that their properties are worth millions.

I'm so pissed off that every child I have looked after in care will never be able to afford a house - their prospects are shocking. In fact next year dd goes on the housing list as SS will put her on there in the hope that she will get a studio before she leaves care aged 24.

Latara Mon 18-Mar-13 22:29:26

I'm on low rate DLA & tax credits because i can only (due to serious mental illness) work part time.

I am really struggling to afford to live - i can't get HB, & still have to pay £82 a month council tax.

My Dad works full time, plus gets his pension (at age 65).
He gets Fuel Allowance which he would prefer to be distributed to poorer people as he earns quite high wages.

I'm lucky & very grateful because he kindly gives me some of his wages each month - if he didn't i'd be at the Foodbank!!

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 22:30:38

"those SAHMs contributed massively to a stable society/voluntary work and to the emotional welfare of their pre-school kids"

My mother played squash and had her hair done.
My MIL locked her son out of the house until 6pm every day in case he made a mess.

Are we an emotionally stable generation because they were SAHM?

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 22:30:54

Does there need to be three generations that have never worked? Surely anyone that has never worked, or who has worked very little, despite being able to is enough?

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 22:35:14

Yes, but there are very few people who have never worked, is what I am saying. We get all of this rhetoric in popular media and even in Parliamentary debates about it but in fact it is very rare, and in the cases where it does happen there are other factors - addiction, chaotic lifestyles, disabilities and chronic conditions in the families etc. What the JRF found is that there are people who go on and off benefits throughout their working lives, due to short-term contracts, zero-hours contracts, caring responsibilities etc. People who couldn't find permanent work, often because of the way that employers run their businesses. But they found very few people who had never worked.

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 22:37:24

And by the way, employers are only able to run their businesses using zero-hours and short term contracts because politicians have ensured that unions are fucked and employees have fewer rights now than they did in for example the 70s, so they have set up an economic environment where people will dip in and out of benefits during the course of their working lives. And then those same politicians will castigate them for it!

nkf Mon 18-Mar-13 22:39:06

An anecdote is a story. That's all. So if someone tells a story about a benefit scrounger, that's an anecdote. All I'm commenting on is that one type of benefit receiver is pilloried and another defended. I don't kmow the figures on pensioners or pensions. I just had a general impression that their lives were often hard.

For all I know, Dispatches has just found a bunch of obnoxious wealthy pensioners who sneer at everyone else. They might not be typical. Statistically typical I mean. Not like someone or other's father in law.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 22:47:00

being subsidised by the state. It doesn't matter that much if plenty of women didn't work, they were being subsidised by their husbands, not other taxpayers. Whereas a single mother on benefits is being entirely funded by other people.

The more you try and take from the state, the more you have to lose.'

What Clouds and trees said plus I would add those SAHMs contributed massively to a stable society/voluntary work

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 22:47:15

There is a right load of old shit being spouted on this thread, like this:
DH's parents retired at 50, although his mum never worked. They have good final salary pension
Okay... his mum never worked, but has a final salary pension scheme. hmm
And the bit about all pensioners shopping in Waitrose etc.
Yep, it's the old divide and rule hard at work.

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 22:49:29

Sure. But what I'm trying to do is point out that anecdotes about benefit scroungers are misleading and indeed irrelevant, because statistics and studies show there are very few people who have never worked, so it doesn't add much to the debate to start banging on about them

I agree with you though that anecdotes about rich pensioners are also misleading, when as you (or someone else, I forget now) point out, many of them lived and worked through the lean eighties, with massive interest rates etc.

However, I do think looking at the broader picture, when the era of the baby boomers is studied in the future they will be seen to have had it better than people before and after them.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 22:49:33

Above is a copy and paste that ive taken from uks post (posted too soon)

Can anyone else see the glaring contradiction?

Haveing a mysogynistic go at single mums on benefit because they arent working and then saying that SAHMS contribute massively

Well Which is it????!!!!!!! confused

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 22:50:41

Baby boomers are defined as people born between 1946 and 1964.
Many of you ranting about the BBs surely realise that a lot of these people are still in work (some on NMW), struggling to pay huge mortgages/rents, will not retire until they're 67 etc. etc.
There are as many blinkered people on this thread as you'd find on any benefit-bashing thread...

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 22:52:01

two fingers i DONT begrudge the pensioners their benefits. NOT at all. But my issue was the ATTITUDE of the golf club pensioners featured in the programme.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 22:52:40

For all I know, Dispatches has just found a bunch of obnoxious wealthy pensioners who sneer at everyone else. They might not be typical. Statistically typical I mean. Not like someone or other's father in law.
I think this is probably the case. Just like the Daily Mail hunting out the single mother with 18 children by 25 different dads who is having a house built of gold especially to accommodate her brood...

olivertheoctopus Mon 18-Mar-13 22:53:03

I got annoyed by the first half. Michael Buerk at a golf club with a load of white middle class men. Didn't seem entirely representative to me. And I knew Stringfellow would turn up at some point.

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 22:54:27

People born in 1964 are not generally paying huge mortgages. At least, they aren't paying nearly as much for their houses as people born in 1984. Or 1994. They're more likely to be owning the houses that people born in those years are living in, with the younger generation paying extortionate amounts in rent!

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 22:55:42

two fingers both my parents are still working at 77

OTTMummA Mon 18-Mar-13 22:56:05

We wouldn't need ctc or wtf if employers paid a liveable wage.
These 'benifits' bridge the gap between what companies want to pay you and what you actually need to survive!

I don't think most people would feel so enraged if the majority of Baby boomers acknowledged that that had it a lot easier and were very lucky benefit from a booming economy, attainable house prices in relation to wages, free education and access to better pension options.

But nope, according to some they earned all this, they ate better than the other filthy scroungers who live on benefits!
Who are they kidding?
Not only did they live in a golden era, lucked out on booming house prices have free education and better opportunities , they then think they actually are owed WFA and free bus passes because they paid in?
It is a fact that pensioners have taken out of the pot, including free education up to degree level and NHS care more than they have ever paid in.
At my generations retirement age (67) we would of paid in more than what we have taken out, we will also be fucked over on pensions which is just the icing on the cake.

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 22:58:28

LaurieFairyStory, LOL all you like about our `not doing it on purpose`, but actually quite a lot of us oldies did not vote for Thatcher, or strike breaking, or the other things you accuse us of. Absurd generalisations contribute nothing to this arguement.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:01:19

People born in 1964 are not generally paying huge mortgages. At least, they aren't paying nearly as much for their houses as people born in 1984. Or 1994. They're more likely to be owning the houses that people born in those years are living in, with the younger generation paying extortionate amounts in rent!

If you say so. Can't beat a good generalisation after all... It has occurred to you, I suppose, that some people born in '64 may have bought their first property AFTER some people born in '84? It does happen like that sometimes, you know... I know plenty of people in their fifties who have never been able to buy a house and never will.
The only BTL landlord I know is 32 years old, brought up on 'Property Ladder'...

Of course not all of you did but a sufficient majority did or we wouldn't have had those governments.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 23:02:04

I don't think most people would feel so enraged if the majority of Baby boomers acknowledged that that had it a lot easier and were very lucky benefit from a booming economy, attainable house prices in relation to wages, free education and access to better pension options.

THIS. Back in the late 90s/early 2000s i was unemployed. And my parents REFUSED to understand why i couldnt afford to work in a part time job. They really thought that 40 pounds a week could pay for food rent and council tax gas electric water etc. (no working tax credit back then for people without kids.)

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:02:55

two fingers both my parents are still working at 77
From choice or necessity? I think there's a difference.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:04:40

Absurd generalisations contribute nothing to this argument.
Spot on, HintOfBream.

bassetfeet Mon 18-Mar-13 23:04:58

Some real venom here towards us so called baby boomers . Not all of us are playing golf and riding around on free bus passes .

I pay for my prescriptions and dental care ......my oh doesnt . He is ill .
I have enough savings to pay for two funerals . As long as that cost doesnt go up sad. No more . But those savings take me above the free care. Fine by me

We have always supported our adult children with money in the past and with time which we have now to facilitate childcare /animal care etc . Happily .

I hugely empathise with the younger generation today. Why would I not? Awful to struggle . But recession and redundancy happened to us too .
Why oh why the nasty comments .

I sure do not shop at Waitrose .

One day you will be older and it is hard to envisage .

My pension age changed last year to 7 years ahead for what I had planned .
No time to start saving really any more funds. I am not complaining . just maybe my contribution to the recession after all those contributions made in good faith . And the help I give my sons when I can .

please do not be so nasty in your obvious hatred for my generation .

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 23:06:08

two fingers my DH says its cos they cant stand each other. But my DM says its cos they cant afford to retire.

Funny how they expected me to work in some non existent part time job and live on a lot less and for it to keep both me and DH though. hmm

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:06:43

THIS. Back in the late 90s/early 2000s i was unemployed. And my parents REFUSED to understand why i couldnt afford to work in a part time job. They really thought that 40 pounds a week could pay for food rent and council tax gas electric water etc. (no working tax credit back then for people without kids.)

Back in the 80s, during Thatcher's reign, millions of baby boomers people were unemployed, too...

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 23:08:03

basset you sound like a lovely person. My DH is a baby boomer too You sound like you have same attitude as him thanks

It is not making absurd generalisations to state that a sufficient majority voted for those dreadful policies which screwed younger generations over confused

Or we wouldn't have had them.

expatinscotland Mon 18-Mar-13 23:08:13

'The ladder has been pulled up behind them, but they didn't do that on purpose. They had no more control over house prices and the benefits they get than any of us do now.'

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be any less exempt from the cuts than everyone else.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:12:28

It is not making absurd generalisations to state that a sufficient majority voted for those dreadful policies which screwed younger generations over

Those voters weren't all baby-boomers/old people.
Working in a university, most of the 50-60 year olds I know wouldn't touch the Tory party with a very long bargepole. Age and Tory voting don't go hand-in-hand...

OTTMummA Mon 18-Mar-13 23:12:43

I don't begrudge pension age people working because they need to, but I know a lot of over 65's still in work that just don't want to retire and therefore those jobs are closed off to young people entering the job Market for the first time.
Infact there are more retirement age workers than ever now, people live longer and have better health.
Clouds always trots out about how it's unfair to means test a group who can not increase their income, but I see plenty of over 65's working, in houses they could downsize from and let's not forget that they had ample oppertunity to take advantage of better interest rates and pension plans, if they chose not to to this are they not as feckless as the rest of us?

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 23:13:31

Haveing a mysogynistic go at single mums on benefit because they arent working and then saying that SAHMS contribute massively

Well Which is it????!!!!!!!

A SAHP on benefits can't really be said to be contributing can they? They might do stuff for their community, but it's not going to equal what they take out. Whereas a SAHP supported by their spouse can do the same things for the community, but be making a genuine contribution, because they aren't taking cash out of the pot. What they contribute is an actual contribution.

Wallison Mon 18-Mar-13 23:14:13

I do think it's a bit much to be complaining about winter fuel allowance when it costs a pittance in terms of overall benefit spend, would cost more if it were means-tested and helps a lot of people who otherwise would have their quality of life drastically reduced if they were not getting it. The UK is a cold country. Our winter lasts six months. I wouldn't like to think of someone who is at the end of a productive working life sitting shivering and even getting hypothermia because they couldn't afford to heat their own home.

But I do think baby boomers have had it easy re house prices.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 23:15:29

Clouds always trots out about how it's unfair to means test a group who can not increase their income, but I see plenty of over 65's working, in houses they could downsize from and let's not forget that they had ample oppertunity to take advantage of better interest rates and pension plans, if they chose not to to this are they not as feckless as the rest of us?

How can it possibly be feckless to work when you don't have to and to live in a house that you own? confused

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 23:17:01

Back in the 80s, during Thatcher's reign, millions of baby boomers people were unemployed, too...

I know two fingers My mum was one of them And got royally screwed over because shed been paying half stamp.

Which makes it even harder to understand their vilification of the unemployed now.
e.g. You should have been there when i tried to explain the concept of workfare to them
Their reaction...Well i just wouldnt do it.
me...well you would lose your jobseekers then. They just shook their heads. they cannot comprehend it.
Same With Sunday/bank holiday working. they INSIST its against the law to not pay time and a half or double time and say they wouldnt do it.
I said "you would prob get the sack then" they didnt want to believe it. And they read the Daily Mail.

bassetfeet Mon 18-Mar-13 23:17:13

Thank you Darkesteyes. meant a lot .

The vast majority of Tory voters are over 60 - their demographic is massively skewed.

I'm only interested in facts.

morethanpotatoprints Mon 18-Mar-13 23:17:52

Clouds

I don't believe either are contributing, but don't have a problem with this.

Single sahp or a married sahp is the same to me. I am the latter.

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 23:20:04

Yes LaurieFairyStory some did, but that is not what you said earlier with your sweeping generalisation. Many of us worked hard to achieve labour governments in the hope that they would bring about a fairer society.

timidviper Mon 18-Mar-13 23:21:35

Society has massively changed in the last generation. By the age of 50 both DPs and PILs had lost their parents, inherited anything there was to inherit and invested/spent that money so keeping the economy moving. At the same age DP and I are supporting ageing parents who spend fairly frugally (other than PILs holidays which are all outside UK) thus not stimulating the UK economy and costing the country a lot in pensions and healthcare. Now I am not for one minute advocating a swifter end for pensioners shock but I do think this may explain some of the economic woes of the country

I am, according to the definition above, one of the latest baby boomers which surprises me as I didn't realise I was one. Although we have had some advantages like free university education we battled rising house prices and high interest rates so we, certainly, have not benefitted anywhere near as much as the golf club men.

Maybe we should find the name of that golf club and swamp them with letters of protest!

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 23:22:46

Clouds what really gets my back up is that single mums are vilified while single dads are hero worshipped.
I bet it was the former you were thinking of while writing that post.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:22:47

The vast majority of Tory voters are over 60
The vast majority of Labour voters are probably over 60 too.
The vast majority of voters are probably over 60.

What on earth are you wittering about.

It is not a generalisation to state that enough people voted Tory over the years for those policies to be enacted.

I have no idea why on earth you think I'm calling you a Tory or generalising about how YOU voted - fine, you voted Labour - as did I back then.

If you're in agreement with the basic facts I've stated :

1. The vast majority of Tory Voters are over 60
And

2. Successive Tory governments enacted those policies over the years and pulled up the ladder behind them increasing the gap between rich and poor ensuring that young people are truly fucked

Then what exactly are you arguing about.

I didn't call YOU a Tory just because you're a senior citizen confused

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 23:26:13

Actually, I was thinking of Mums that run PTA events that benefit all our children and the voluntary work I (a Mum) am able to do with disabled people due to working part time, but you carry on with your assumptions if you like.

OTTMummA Mon 18-Mar-13 23:27:24

I am explaining that just because you are over 65 that doesn't mean you have no way to increase your earnings.
If you are over 65 you have probably had a much better chance of building a nest egg to keep you comfortable at retirement than anyone born in my generation.
I stand by this, if it's ok to take money from disabled children then it's ok to take money from rich old people.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:29:14

Who are you wittering about, Laurie, and why the rudeness?

Successive Tory and Labour governments promoted policies that saw house prices soar and the division between rich and poor get wider and wider.

And who are you calling a senior citizen?
Your post is rather baffling.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 23:30:28

It's not ok to take money from disabled children though. Wrongly taking from one doesn't make it right to take from another.

If they had hit pensioners before hitting disabled people, would that be ok then?

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:32:13

It it wrong to hit anyone, Clouds. Violence is not the answer.
HTH

OTTMummA Mon 18-Mar-13 23:33:32

Rich pensioners? Yes.
I am enraged that people who have major assets and had better financial luck than any other get more than any other group of society.

nagynolonger Mon 18-Mar-13 23:33:34

Most baby boomers left school at 15 (maybe 16 for the younger ones). Most never went to university and paid tax and NI on leaving school. Many who left at 15 will be in their mid 50s now so still working!

Also re the crap about the women hardly ever working. They did work but many paid a 'married womens stamp' because it saved them moneyat the time.....they needed the money because they were young parents. The reduced NI a married woman paid ment she could claim s*d all. Working class women have always had to work. My DM, GM and as far back as I can tell all worked and brought up children.

There are some very rich pensioners but they are not the majority. They should means test WFA and stop 60+ travelling for free on early morning buses. Around here the only people who pay on the 8am bus are the A level students who pay £4 per day to get to and from school.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 23:33:44

grin

I'm not being at all rude confused

I have no idea why you and Bream have said I'm generalising or why you think I'm accusing you of voting for Tory policies.

I didn't, I haven't. And neither did I.

But people did, and they are most likely over 60. In fact the average age of a member of the Tory party is 72.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 23:36:07

Thats brilliant that you do that Clouds but your ability to be able to afford to work part time does help.

OTTMummA Mon 18-Mar-13 23:38:10

Actually I am more enraged by some of the attitudes some of these pensioners have.
Why can they not accept that they don't deserve a god dam thing?
They lucked out and they can not accept it, it. Must of been down to jus good old fashioned hard work, they must of earned it all!
Then they have bare faced cheek to tell us we could all have that and more if we just went without x,y,z for a few years and save up like they did.
THERE IS NOTHING TO SAVE!!!

ukatlast Mon 18-Mar-13 23:38:28

'Can anyone else see the glaring contradiction?

Haveing a mysogynistic go at single mums on benefit because they arent working and then saying that SAHMS contribute massively

Well Which is it????!!!!!!! '

Happy to answer. I believe pre-schoolers benefit from hands on care from people with a vested emotional interest in them. For this reason I don't support forcing single parents with young kids into the workforce (as even last Labour Government tried to) but I do think everyone has a responsibility to not procreate until they think it likely on balance that they will be able to afford to support their kids barring a disaster like unemployment/illness etc.
.
I didn't have mine till mid thirties and chose to be SAHM financed entirely by my husband as I had had enough of pursuing a career in a male dominated area and wanted to be there for my kids.
As a kind of feminist, I think women are naive for not taking on board the full protection of the Law through marriage before having kids.
I really have trouble understanding why people get pregnant by accident when contraception is freely available in UK. Okay if you want to sleep around in your teens, at least go on the pill first.
This all sounds very right-wing but politically I am anything but...this thread seems like an unpleasant attack on pensioners (I am not one yet lol). Surely if it costs more to means test a benefit than to keep it universal, it is illogical to try to do so. It is usually the poorer people who have issues filling out the forms and getting what is 'owed' to them.
Also 'rich' pensioners can't win - they are being criticised for using the bus which is an environmentally friendly choice rather than driving their cars which isn't.

It's divide and rule as someone else said.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:40:23

Laurie, I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that I (or Bream) think you have accused us of anything? Where have we said that?

This seems to be your reasoning:
Most Tory voters are old.
Old people vote.
Therefore most old people vote Tory.
This is not a logical argument.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Mon 18-Mar-13 23:42:06

If successive governments favour pensioners because pensioners vote, isn't it the responsibility of younger generations to take back the political power by, er, y'know, voting?

"Baby Boomers" didn't choose to make vast profits out of their housing, younger generations were willing to pay stupid prices (encouraged by low interest rates, high multiplies of income, two incomes rather than one, "must get on the ladder", council house selloffs etc).

Btw, I have a good friend, older than baby boomer generation. He's wealthy, I don't know how wealthy but he bought a house for quarter of a mill, cash, so he's not broke. He gets WFA.

He also pays 40% tax on his pensions.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 18-Mar-13 23:42:39

Well, yes, but I have less ability to do it than someone who doesn't have to work at all because they are being subsidised by benefits.

And if we are going to bring voluntary work into it, one of the bigger charities I work with would grind to a halt if it weren't for well educated and reasonably well off retired people doing a larger number of shifts than those of us with children can manage. They contribute a huge amount, which I think is worth saying on a thread where they are getting slated so much.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:42:51

Laurie This is you being rude:
What on earth are you wittering about.

Perhaps you don't think that IS rude, but I do, whoever it's addressed to...

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 23:43:39

If successive governments favour pensioners because pensioners vote, isn't it the responsibility of younger generations to take back the political power by, er, y'know, voting?
Precisely.

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 23:44:50

LaurieFairy Story

*Lol at 'they didn't do it on purpose'
Yes, they did - they voted for thatcher, for strike breaking, for idiotic wars, for workfare, for no house building for decades so that their properties are worth millions.*

That is a generalisation.
I did not say you were accusing me of being a Tory.

Raum Mon 18-Mar-13 23:45:05

No we won't all be pensioners, I will most likely be dead before retirement age as its constantly moves higher. I'll be shocked if it isn,'t 70 by 2030 at this rate. My parents are both in their late 60s and get a pension I can only dream of despite me already having paid far more into the pot than they did combined and I'm not even 40! Politicians can go jump off a bloody cliff, not one of them has the balls to tackle the utter injustice that my generation faces. We pay for the mistakes of our elders to clear up debt before it hits our children, what a fun life.

ukatlast Mon 18-Mar-13 23:45:23

Laurie fairy cakes: 'Of course not all of you did but a sufficient majority did or we wouldn't have had those governments.'

Do you not understand that in our 'first past the post system' the party with the most votes is often not the one which wins the most seats?

Many people voted Tory in 1979 in order to buy their council house....

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 23:47:29

""Baby Boomers" didn't choose to make vast profits out of their housing, younger generations were willing to pay stupid prices (encouraged by low interest rates, high multiplies of income, two incomes rather than one, "must get on the ladder", council house selloffs etc)."

THIS is the golf culb mentality.

ukatlast Mon 18-Mar-13 23:48:24

Clouds and trees 'A SAHP on benefits can't really be said to be contributing can they? They might do stuff for their community, but it's not going to equal what they take out. Whereas a SAHP supported by their spouse can do the same things for the community, but be making a genuine contribution, because they aren't taking cash out of the pot. What they contribute is an actual contribution'.

YEP I used to do lots of voluntary work in a parent-run playgroup on the Housing Association estate opposite my private estate.

Procrastinating Mon 18-Mar-13 23:48:59

club. sorry. piss is boiling.

Well considering it was in response to Brean saying that I was making a 'sweeping generalisation' when all I was doing was stating facts.

And you with your 'Tory voting and old age don't go hand in hand' - not for individuals, but yes statistically.

And no, that isn't my argument - that simplistic summary you posted.

HintofBream Mon 18-Mar-13 23:50:34

I'm off to bed now. We OAPs need our sleep after a hard day swallowing free pills, stoking up the central heating courtesy of winter fuel allowance and carousing around the country with our bus passes.

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 23:51:47

ukatlast I think kind of feminist is a precarious desccription for you. Youve said you cant understand why people get pregnant (meaning women obvs) when there is such a lot of contraception available. No mention of "cant understand why men arnt using the free comdoms available from family planning clinics.
And intimating "if teens want to "sleep around" they can at least go on the pill putting it all on the female again. Alsoyour post intimates that a teenage girl who gets pregnant must have been sleeping around. Wow just wow. <checks calandar to be doubly sure what year we are in>

I think you may have to read that second paragraph again ukatlast wink

Though its a very funny slip. grin

OldLadyKnowsNothing Mon 18-Mar-13 23:57:37

No, Procrastinating, it's not the "golf club mentality". A house, anything, is only "worth" what a buyer is willing to pay. People are finding out now that what they were willing to pay a few years ago, is not what people are willing to pay now; you may have heard of "negative equity".

In the boom years, younger generations were willing to pay stupid sums of money, for the reasons I outlined previously.

You can't blame a seller for getting the best price offered.

And, let's face it, all that capital wealth will come down through the generations anyway, either through lumpsum inheritance or carehome fees paying wages. It's not as if anyone can take it with them.

ukatlast Mon 18-Mar-13 23:59:45

Cloudsandtrees...and also the Mums who go on the school trips to make up the ratios and thereby keep the costs down for all families; or even enable the trip to run at all...according to the begging letters for volunteers which are received.

ukatlast Tue 19-Mar-13 00:01:15

'But people did, and they are most likely over 60. In fact the average age of a member of the Tory party is 72.'

That's cool...they should be toast within a generation then lol

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 00:04:08

ukatlast Cant you see thats down to luck though. A working single parent will mostly be unable to go on school trips because of having to work.

ukatlast Tue 19-Mar-13 00:13:12

'ukatlast I think kind of feminist is a precarious desccription for you. Youve said you cant understand why people get pregnant (meaning women obvs) when there is such a lot of contraception available. No mention of "cant understand why men arnt using the free comdoms available from family planning clinics.
And intimating "if teens want to "sleep around" they can at least go on the pill putting it all on the female again. Alsoyour post intimates that a teenage girl who gets pregnant must have been sleeping around. Wow just wow. <checks calandar to be doubly sure what year we are in>'

I don't care who uses the contraception in fact pill and condom would be a great idea...just use some please...if contraception fails...there's the morning after pill.
Since when could anyone get pregnant without having sex first? If teenagers who want to sleep with their partners used contraception responsibly - there would be some failures still - but the numbers would be far lower than what we are currently faced with.
I put the emphasis on the female since she is the one left in the lurch when it goes wrong....

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 00:18:01

UK atlast you were referring to if teens want to sleep around they can at least go on the pill" so you were referring to girls "sleeping around" as boys cant take the pill.

ukatlast Tue 19-Mar-13 00:19:41

'A working single parent will mostly be unable to go on school trips because of having to work.'

Yes but if (middle class) SAHMs from choice did not exist who would be getting involved instead?
Paid work is not the only contribution people make to the stability of society and the wellbeing of its citizens.

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 00:21:53

Read your post again, it lays blame of teenage pregnancy on the feet of teenage girls.
You may of not intended it to come across that way, but your words do just that.

ukatlast Tue 19-Mar-13 00:27:56

'UK atlast you were referring to if teens want to sleep around they can at least go on the pill" so you were referring to girls "sleeping around" as boys cant take the pill.'

If I had a daughter, I would never suggest she rely on her male partner to provide the contraception because there is more at stake for her than him. This is commonsense.

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 00:32:28

Paid work is not the only contribution people make to the stability of society and the wellbeing of its citizens

Im well aware of that. Im a carer.

Eliza600 Tue 19-Mar-13 02:16:51

Sorry, but I think a lot of nonsense is being spouted on this thread.

I'm 60.
I have worked full-time since I was 16. I have one child and took only 5 weeks maternity leave off work (in total).
My work pension contributions were paid every month from age 17 to age 55 and were today's equivalent of £150 - £250 per month. Every month for 38 years worked in the NHS. I retired at 55 as I had what was known as 'Mental Health Officer Status, which allows early retirement.
I now work full-time in a different job and to date I have paid the equivalent of at least £200,000 in income tax (since 1972).
I have never claimed any benefits or used the NHS (except for the birth of my son).
My husband paid 39 years contributions into his state pension and never lived to receive it.
I have been robbed of 6 years' state pension. Having been told that I would receive a state pension at age 60 it has suddenly jumped to age 66. Quite frankly, this is a scam and has done me out of about £38,000 (roughly).

And here is the part most of you will really disagree with:
We had it harder in the 70s & 80s.
I furnished my home second hand and very cheaply.
Couldn't afford a car so cycled 15 miles to work in all weathers at 5am for years.
No central heating (even as a child) etc till I was about 27 and we could afford to have it installed.
Saved every penny for several years for the deposit on a small house.
No benefit culture - we worked or starved. I did two jobs for years to pay my mortgage. I spent years feeling permanently exhausted
No expensive 'toys'...smartphones, telly packages, nice cars, spa days, acrylic nails or suchlike. No expensive nights out - I rarely went out. And before you say they are necessary - no, they are not. A basic internet connection may be necessary for work purposes/writing CVs but that's about all.
No expensive wedding - all our income went on paying the mortgage and paying the bills.
I took a degree in my own time (whilst working full time) and I paid to do so.
I only had one child because I knew that I couldn't afford anymore if I was to lose my job or become ill.
I never had a holiday abroad till I was 35.

And yes, I have a lovely life today - a nice house, a good NHS pension, a well paid private sector job and a good state pension to come in a few years' time.
After 30+ years scrimping and saving I think I deserve it.

And yet today we have young families having several children, living on benefits with no intention of working and feeling that it's their right to be supported by the state, whilst saying that pensioners should be hit in the pocket.

nagynolonger Tue 19-Mar-13 02:33:27

I think lots of women of a similar age do feel let down re retirement age.

It's OK keep pushing the retirement age up but in effect it means the babyboomers everyone hates are sitting on jobs and their grandchildren can't get work.

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 02:50:28

Eliza my DH is 63 and he disagrees with you saying it was easier in the 70s. I did explain why to you on a previous thread. Ive searched for that post but cant find it. When i do i will repost it here.

nagynolonger Tue 19-Mar-13 03:03:45

It might have been easier in the 1970s. But we did have to put up with the stikes, power cuts and high inflation.

I have awful memories of the Thatcher/Major years. If you had money the high interest rates/utility sell offs were fantastic. If you were just starting out with a mortgage and had a private sector job in industry life was bloody awful. Poll tax wasn't great either.

Bedtime1 Tue 19-Mar-13 03:17:56

I believe in fairness. Why should a pensioner who hasn't worked get help from the government but one that has worked get nothing? That's not fair as it rewards people that haven't worked hard.
It doesn't matter what income you are on, it's about being fair.

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 07:13:40

Eliza, you deserve it?
So what about all of the people in my generation who work just as hard as you did but will come away with nothing you have ended up with?
What you have now is not only due to hard work, you had the benefit of buying a house in times when the Market was fairer and reflected against average wages.
You had the benefit of better pension options, I do feel for you that you were 'robbed' injustice can make you feel bitter and resentful.
I don't see how you can think anyone born after 1984 has it easier.

It is true that the generation born after 1984 has had a decrease in quality of life greater than any other generation since WW2.

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 07:17:39

I find it hard to believe you haven't used the NHS apart from the birth of your son either.
You are either a liar, or you have been fortunate enough to pay for private medical care.

nagynolonger Tue 19-Mar-13 07:45:42

Those born after 1994 will have it even harder! That's the generation that have been really stuffed with £9000 per year tuition fees.

pouffepants Tue 19-Mar-13 07:54:14

Eliza, it's not the permanent benefit dwellers that are saying rich pensioners should be hit. As far as I can see there is no-one like that on this thread, although of course they do exist.

It's the people who are doing exactly what you did, but are going to have little to no return for exactly the same effort you put in, and an awful lot of us don't have (or in some cases particularly want) some of the stuff you listed as 'stuff people have nowadays'.

Tanith Tue 19-Mar-13 07:54:15

When will we learn? sad

Dispatches was trying to create exactly the furore that has been shown here. They deliberately showed well off pensioners in well off situations and carefully edited it to give the impression they were sticking two fingers up at the rest of us.

I can remember the last Tory government when pensioners froze to death every winter and struggled on pensions that didn't cover their meagre living expenses. I can remember the high unemployment, the sky high house prices that crashed, causing repossessions on a scale you haven't seen yet.

So far, we haven't seen inflation spiralling out of control - it was 15% then and I think that's yet to come.

This is the start of pensioner-hate, just like single mothers, unemployed people and disabled people were vilified so that their benefits could be cut and removed without a general outcry.

Pensioners are next, by the look of it. I wonder who they'll target after that...

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 08:03:05

some of the maths on that program had a lot of journalist licence (i.e. a good headline but don't stand up to simple analysis).

at one point they said making x, y and z changes would save 5bn but that was over 3 years, not the annual saving they made out.

while its likely that winter fuel payments etc. will move to means testing, it is not going to save a vast sum of money: most pensioners are on low incomes, with longer life expectancy, poor returns on savings and investments, this number can only grow.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 19-Mar-13 08:06:13

I can't see a reason to attack anyone in Eliza's position. She did what she was supposed to do in the circumstances she was born into, the same as we all do, or should be doing.

Someone in her position does have more right to money out of the pot than someone who has created children they can't afford to bring up.

It's interesting that she says they didn't have heating until she was well into adulthood. Nowadays we have young people claiming that they can't afford heating, as if its something they have an automatic right to, not a relative luxury. As if its something that other taxpayers should be providing for them despite the fact that they made bad choices in life and had children they can't provide for. There are plenty of people in my own family that didn't have heating when they were younger.

If anyone has a right to feel entitled to help from the government for things like heating, it is pensioners. Not people who create children while they are already having to claim benefit of some kind.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 08:15:59

OTTMumma So what about all of the people in my generation who work just as hard as you did but will come away with nothing you have ended up with?

what generation are you?

luckybarsteward Tue 19-Mar-13 08:20:11

Tanith is of course spot on. I well remember the drip feeding of stories in the Mail et al about the scourge of single mothers popping out kids in return for luxury accommodation and a host of benefits. Over a couple of years public attitudes towards those in need from one of compassion to vilification. The same drip feeding via the same outlets (and the BBC's saints and scroungers) has done the same thing.

When will we get the 1% who own 46% of the world's assets on Jeremy Kyle defending their wealth, or the Daily Mail pointing out that over a lifetime the middle-class are the greatest beneficiaries of the welfare state?

At the moment the climate of envy is leading to a scramble to the bottom - public sector working conditions look too good so rather than raise standards in the private sector we'll happily watch them dismantled.

I wouldn't worry too much about the poor or the old, government policy is working well towards reducing the life expectancy of both. https://news.liv.ac.uk/2012/12/05/life-expectancy-gap-between-rich-and-poor-set-to-increase-over-next-ten-years/

Abra1d Tue 19-Mar-13 08:26:04

Even by MN fruitloop standards this thread is off the scale.

People who 'voted' for the Falklands War (don't remember that vote) are responsible for increased price rises and 'pulled a ladder up'? Er, how did that work? Was there another vote called something like 'Let's deliberately make our own children and grandchildrens' lives harder?' Gosh, yes, let's all vote for that because we hate our own children, don't we?

Those of you lamenting the fact your parents or in-laws have big houses better hope you are good and anonymous on this thread. Or they may not leave them to you grin. I bet you won't be complaining when Daddy leaves you his house in Barnes, will you? Hypocrisy, much?

There is a difference between SAHMs funded by their husbands and deliberately single mothers funded by the state, ie women who let themselves 'fall' pregnant even though there is no man in their life and no job to support themselves.

And finally, pensioners are taxed, you know!

Domjolly Tue 19-Mar-13 08:26:10

Good i bet all the lefties didnt know what to do last night

They always insist these people who are getting welafre unjustly dont exsit

And there they were saying if you take away our welafre which we can afgord to do with out we wont vote whilest drinking a class of very nice vino and having a round of golf

Hahahaha
Thats were 13 years pf socialism has got us people with imcomes i could not imagain emassing welfare payemnts some could only dream of getting paid at work o

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 08:27:24

RUBBISH! that report is talking about smaller increases in life expectancy, not shortening life:

“Our study indicates that slower economic growth is likely to result in smaller increases in life expectancy over the next decade"

lotsofdogshere Tue 19-Mar-13 08:39:05

Well here I go - I'm 64 next month. I started work at 16, went back to higher education when my first child was 6, and worked with children and families for 33 years. I was divorced when my oldest was 7, it was tough as I'm sure you can imagine. I was 50p a week off getting a rates (as it was then) rebate and was on a very very tight budget. There was no child benefit for first children. I re-married and we had two children when I was in my mid 30's. The experience of divorce and all that went with it made me sure I wanted a level of financial independence, including a decent pension, as I'd been left broke and with no pension previously. I'm still married, and we are happy thankfully. I had to retire due to significant health problems when I was 62. As we'd been financially supporting our two children through uni, and our oldest who was on her own with 2 small children, savings weren't possible. My husband was made redundant as part of the government cuts, at the same time as I had to retire. We have saved in pension pots, and managed to pay off our mortgage. We give our winter fuel allowance to charity. I find the vitriol towards older people as daft as the vitriol from some miserable old folks against young people. Divide and rule or what! My generation has worked hard and everyone I know feels fortunate to be old enough to retire before we die. My grandparents worked in mills/down the pit and popped their clogs within a very short time of retirement. The way things are going, we'll be back to that before too long, with people working themselves into the ground before they retire. I still work a bit, I do voluntary stuff, and I love having a bit of time, for the first time in my life, to relax, enjoy my dogs/hens/walking/garden etc. I have various health problems so want to enjoy what time I have here. I think it'd be really mean spirited to resent that. Cheer up folks, life is hard for everyone - I share the resentment at folks like Peter Stringfellow, but he is such a burk, why waste energy fretting about him, he certainly won't change. Rant over, off for a lovely walk in the sun. Oh, and what savings we had have gone to the kids to help with deposits so they can somehow manage to buy somewhere to live. All our friends have done exactly the same as us - trying to help our kids out, as our parents didn't have any money to help us and we know how tough it is starting out.

luckybarsteward Tue 19-Mar-13 08:39:33

Faster - Try and read it properly, that study was when average household income was increasing, not in the current climate of year on year decreases in the relative wealth of households. The main point being the gap in life expectancy between rich and poor was a result of policy, the fact it had increased generally being down to income.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 08:43:53

lucky - can you quote the part which backs you your assertion government policy is working well towards reducing the life expectancy of both.

the part I quoted contradicts what you have said.

magso Tue 19-Mar-13 08:47:51

I did not see this years program but did see previous.
State pensions are the return on state insurance system surely that is a right not a benefit. It is only the few well off younger healthy pensioners (who surely pay tax on their wealth including their pensions) that do not need their pension, and many of these will be giving it back in other ways. Most pensioners are not well off, and need the winter payment, NHS services and free prescriptions. If the benefits outside basic state pensions could be linked to tax payments and it not cost masses to administer then I see a way to exclude the very well off from extra uneeded payments. There are ways to opt out of benefits - some formal (like the way people whose partner might earn over the £40,000 limit can opt out of child benefit) some informal - paying privately for healthcare and prescriptions.

VestaCurry Tue 19-Mar-13 08:49:45

The golf club brigade were odious and the Tories are betting on that target group coming out in force for them at the election.

luckybarsteward Tue 19-Mar-13 08:53:30

"policies that increase the gap in incomes and unemployment between areas are likely to exacerbate health inequalities. Allocating resources to local authorities on the basis of their “performance” at increasing life expectancy is likely to reward more affluent areas, rather than disadvantaged areas with greater needs" That's funding policy.

The other policy is that of protecting international finance at the expense of populations - or what they call neccessary cuts and rebalancing.

The net result, greater inequality of health and social care and in real terms a fall in living standards. Draw your own conclusion as to the effects.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 08:55:30

which says nothing about reducing the life expectancy of anyone

luckybarsteward Tue 19-Mar-13 08:57:16

Domjolly - research which shows that over any ten year period 60% of people will spend at least a year being relatively poor would suggest that the idea we could do without welfare is wishful (I use this term with some reservation) thinking.

luckybarsteward Tue 19-Mar-13 08:58:14

Faster - if a raising of income increases life expectancy then what would you suggest a fall in income does?

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 09:03:37

'No expensive 'toys'...smartphones, telly packages, nice cars, spa days, acrylic nails or suchlike. '

No shit, Sherlock, no one had them. Why? Because they didn't exist!

It is now 30-40 years on.

Plenty of people don't have any of that, are working their arses off but at the end of it, they won't get your fat pension - they will get nothing.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 09:13:48

lucky - “smaller increases in life expectancy over the next decade" as the report you linked to says.....

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 09:20:12

Sorry Eliza i think your post is full of nonsense.

I grew up in the 70s and 80s and my father earned a compatible wage to dp,kept his CB(quite a nice sum off his mortgage long term)and paid no tuition fees,even wangled full grants as he retired at 50. The lifestyle was massively better.

We lived in Oxfordshire(not cheap) and my dad commuted into London every day.We went to the South of France every year,dad had a new car every few years,mum and dad ate out every week and went to social work functions.Mum bought whatever food she liked from Sainsbos and the heating was always cranked up high.Frequently visited family and friends elsewhere.

Fast forward to 2013.

We live in the SW,we can only run one very old battered car we keep nursing(never had a new car).Can't afford the 20 min petrol for dp to commute so he cycles every day,can't visit family elsewhere as petrol too high,can rarely buy meat restricted budget,Lidl queen,never go on holiday just camp in Cornwall but not this year too£££,never eat out,heating off as much as we can etc,etc.

Manicures,gadgets-don't make me laugh.

Sorry you haven't worked any harder than families today and aren't entitled o any more.

We'll have a shocking retirement and won't be able to whine,moan over trivialities such as bus passes etc.We'll have to get on with it and cope with the sky high mortgages your generation gave us whilst living without a lot of perks your parents gave you such as CB,an NHS,free education etc,etc so quite frankly I think the baby boomers can poke up with austerity creeping into the aisles of John Lewis and M and S food hall.

You've worked harder and deserve no more than anybody else.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 09:21:19

No harder

crashdoll Tue 19-Mar-13 09:27:50

Clouds "Someone in her position does have more right to money out of the pot than someone who has created children they can't afford to bring up."

Aaaah, well that's not a universal welfare state then! You are hugely contradicting yourself in this thread.

I'm a bit hmm of people purposely ignoring what this thread was started for. I clearly was not talking about pensioners who are struggling to heat their houses. It is about wealthy pensioners who do not need winter fuel allowance, free prescriptions etc. It's about why disabled people and families are at the mercy of the welfare cuts but wealthy older people are not.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 09:28:06

Oh and dp and I never and I do mean never go out.

crashdoll Tue 19-Mar-13 09:29:07

I hate this "I've worked harder than everyone, so I deserve more". Are we back in Victorian times of the deserving and undeserving poor?

luckybarsteward Tue 19-Mar-13 09:30:37

faster, this is the last time I try and explain this to you. That report was set against the background of a growing economy and an expected slowing down of growth and living standards. What we have now is no growth and a reduction in living standards. There was report a couple of years ago dealing with roughly the same period as the Liverpool Uni study that showed a .75% increase in the life expectancy of women in parts of Scotland and that was during a period of growth and investment in Health care.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 09:31:39

Yes Crash. I agree those poor pensioners struggling to eat and heat their houses I feel should get more however the first port of call to fund it should be from those wealthy pensioners who have contributed zilch to removing the deficit and who are costing us money we isn't have on benefits they don't need.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 09:39:51

lucky it was "published on December 5 2012" - 5 years into the downturn

Procrastinating Tue 19-Mar-13 09:44:48

I grew up in the 70s. My father had a very small business, my mother did not work. We had a new house full of new things, two cars, three foreign holidays a year. They had lots of hobbies and my grandparents babaysit twice a week. I remember power cuts, they were nothing. Father retired young, now wealthier than he was when working.

Now myself & dh both work full time, no childcare so I work at night. We might camp for a holiday in England if it is a good year. We never go out. One car, old, barely used. No gagets whatsoever. We work twice as hard as our parents and have very little.

Please don't tell me that we CHOSE to pay too much for our house. What were we supposed to do, wait for the rich pensioners we bought it off to stop being so greedy? Meanwhile I suppose we could have rented a buy-to-let off another set of rich pensioners.

landofsoapandglory Tue 19-Mar-13 09:45:33

I can not believe people are being so blind! Just because you have a better paid job doesn't mean you have worked harder, and people who have no savings haven't necessarily frittered all their money away.

We are always going to need people in lower paid jobs, but that doesn't mean they are less important or not trying. The TA at DS2's school who works 1:1 with a DC with SN is just as important as the HT, but the HT is going to have a massive pension and no less need for WFA than the TA, that doesn't mean the TA has been wreckless with her money.

FWIW I don't believe you should have 11 DC when you have no means of supporting them and I don't believe people should choose benefits as a lifestyle choice (if they actually do).

Apparently, we are all in this together, so Dave should put his money where his mouth is and bring all of us, including the wealthy pensioners in, and put us all in it together.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 09:47:58

And yes gadgets were bought in the 70s and 80s-My sister had a Sinclair Spectrum,we had Walkmans,radios,records,Cabbage Patch dolls etc,etc.

My parents didn't exactly fritter either.

Toasttoppers Tue 19-Mar-13 09:47:59

Less vitriol and hatred towards pensioners and more towards successive governments who created the mess were in today because of their policies.

Crinkle77 Tue 19-Mar-13 09:51:40

I agree with CloudsAndTrees. If you have paid in to the system all your life then why shouldn't you get something back?

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 09:51:50

There would be less vitriol if they were made to it their hands in their pockets like everybody else.

Wasting money on benefits that aren't needed is wrong and chucking money away.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 09:53:39

Erm Crinkle we've all paid into the system and continue to do so but are having money taking away and will lose a lot less long term than the wealthy pensions being discussed.

So if it's good enough for us it's good enough for them.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 09:54:15

More long term not less

landofsoapandglory Tue 19-Mar-13 09:56:19

Crinkle, because it is not a bloody savings account for one thing, and they have 'had something back' all their lives for another.

We all use schools, hospitals, GP services, Dentists, the road networks, council services, libraries, the Police, Fire Service, Armed Forces, etc etc. Where do you think the money comes from for those?

Procrastinating Tue 19-Mar-13 09:58:59

The vitriol is not because they get benefits they don't need, it is because they think they deserve a better life than everyone else.

Procrastinating Tue 19-Mar-13 10:02:46

Whatever they "paid in" has run out after all the free university education, prescriptions, dentistry and universal child benefit they got.

foslady Tue 19-Mar-13 10:03:14

I spoke to my dad about this last night. His view of the golf crowd was the same as mine, ie they grew up in a time when if you didn't like the job, you could tell them to stick it on a Friday and on Monday work somewhere else for £5 more per week (and he did). They have no concept of what life is like now, how expensive housing is, how small pay rises are (even I remember people asking for 20%, getting 12% and being happy at that).

Life has progressed so quickly in the last 30 years that employment levels at companies are no where near where they were, so the companies have the upper hand, so much more can be computerised/automated. I'm not being a Luddite, but life really IS different now than then and harder to get to the 'golf crowd' level. And the sad thing is, they'll never understand this, and call the younger generations lazy/wasteful for not being able to do what they did.

Corygal Tue 19-Mar-13 10:04:14

I regretfully agree with Kazooblue. Pensioners who can afford it must share the pain - otherwise the generational inequality will get even worse. It's bad enough anyway.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 10:06:28

And an awful lot is going on treating the elderly on the NHS,we're living longer and more diseases need treating.

If you want the care you're going to have to pay for it,you can't waste money on benefits that aren't needed and expect there not to be shortfalls elsewhere.

I guess they'd prefer the rest if us got squeezed even more.hmm

fussychica England Tue 19-Mar-13 10:15:45

Lots of pensioners aren't well off as illustrated by the fact that 50% of them aren't eligible to pay tax which means they have an income of less than £10k a year - I suggest that there are very few people who could live on that figure without assistance.

Pensioners are the main group who DON'T claim what they are entitled to which is one of the reasons why they don't want to make these benefits means tested.

I agree that the babyboomers have done well as a group and from now on it's only going to get worse. My retirement age has been changed three times and gone from 60 - 66 - not sure how individuals are meant to plan for their retirement when they don't know when it is - I still won't be suprised if mine is changed again even though I don't have that long to go.

At least those with massive mortgages are having a great time at the expense of anyone trying to save for their retirement!

Rant over.

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 10:17:11

Oh how I wish some of those golf club pensioners could start from scratch again in this day and age.
I talk to some older people and they simply don't want to believe how bad it has become.

Procrastinating Tue 19-Mar-13 10:24:08

"At least those with massive mortgages are having a great time at the expense of anyone trying to save for their retirement!"

What do you mean?

fussychica England Tue 19-Mar-13 10:42:34

Procrastinating I mean that people with mortgages are paying the lowest interest for years at the expense of savings rates so more and more people heading towards retirement are finding saving to bolster their potential pension difficult.

At the risk of sounding like one of the golf club crowd when I took out our first mortgage in 1979 the rate was an eye watering 15.75% compared to low single figures now. We've not always had it so good.

Procrastinating Tue 19-Mar-13 10:47:51

But how much did your house cost? What was that relative to your income?

You do sound like the golf club crowd I'm afraid.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 19-Mar-13 10:48:05

Bloody hell. I thought the benefit-bashing threads on MN were full of ridiculously biased generalisations, but this is just more of the same.

As ToastToppers said:
Less vitriol and hatred towards pensioners and more towards successive governments who created the mess were in today because of their policies

The notion that all pensioners are rich is as flawed as the notion that all benefit claimants live the life of riley. Seriously, people... get a grip. A few obnoxious people in a golf club (a fucking golf club for goodness sake - what does that tell you?!) is not representative of an entire generation.

Procrastinating Tue 19-Mar-13 10:51:12

This thread is about rich pensioners, not pensioners in general.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 19-Mar-13 10:54:20

Some people don't seem to make a distinction.
If you read the thread, it's all 'babyboomers this...', 'pensioners that...', 'pulled the ladder up after them...', 'don't care...', 'refuse to believe...'

ATJabberwocky Tue 19-Mar-13 10:57:21

Means test it all, stop giving the wealthy hand outs, they don't need it!

Also I love the phrase David Scameron!

DolomitesDonkey Tue 19-Mar-13 10:57:40

I kind of want to say "yes, they don't need it + make it means tested".

Otoh, I went without "nice stuff" as a child - read pony + nice clothes + toys etc., because my dad saved.

Those who went out and bought a new Capri ( wink ), package holidays to Spain, new clothes for the children - are still being "rewarded with benefits".

So the feckless are rewarded still - why should my m&d be penalised for saving?

Yes, yes, of course I know they rode the crest of the biggest boom ever.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 11:00:47

if it was soooo easy to make in the past, how come 30% of pensioners are in poverty?

I mean, it was easy, all you had to do was work and it all fell in your lap, or maybe not....

AmberLeaf Tue 19-Mar-13 11:08:23

A SAHP on benefits can't really be said to be contributing can they? They might do stuff for their community, but it's not going to equal what they take out. Whereas a SAHP supported by their spouse can do the same things for the community, but be making a genuine contribution, because they aren't taking cash out of the pot. What they contribute is an actual contribution

They can't win really can they?

If they do nothing, they are scum, if they do contribute, well, they aren't really contributing are they?

What a load of shit.

fussychica England Tue 19-Mar-13 11:09:26

Thanks for that Pro!

My first house a 1 bed property in a cheapish area cost 11k including a 10% saved deposit. In those days mortgages were 2x main salary plus 1 2nd salary.

So about the same as a pair of first time buyers today earning 30k between them and buying a property for 90k - not easy but doable.

Off for a round of golf!

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 11:13:39

i don't understand why this is controversial. it just seems like a no brainer to me. No one has said ALL pensioners, but just like everything there are extremes. I feel dreadful that ANYone has to use food banks etc, including those 30% of pensioners living in poverty - it's fucking heartbreaking. Which is why the money should go to them, not the type of pensioner this thread is about.

Yes, i understand it all seems like anecdote, but i suppose when you grow up in leafy west London it is just the norm. I think there may be a north/south divide or suburb/rural or something. ExPils are from Liverpool, they were royally fucked in the 80's, went thru some shocking hard times. They never recovered. They are now scraping by. THEY need the benefits and more. My parents (chiswick/richmond) do NOT. Ring fence it and redistribute it to those who need it. As the gulf is widening between rich and poor (of any age or description) surely the entire thing needs an overhaul.

crashdoll Tue 19-Mar-13 11:20:40

MrsKoala I don't understand either, although I take the point that if benefits were means tested, some pensioners would not claim which is a huge worry, although the same across the board. As a student social worker, I experience it on my placement in a very deprived area and make it an important task to ensure individuals get support with applying for all they are entitled to. This thread was not an attack on pensioners. It was an angry attack at the government who have ring fenced pensioners benefits when everyone else is feeling the strain. Are we really all in this together or are some groups exempt?

Ruebarb Tue 19-Mar-13 11:22:49

I can remember 40 years ago thinking i would never be able to get on the housing ladder and that things would never get better - country was bankrupt, there was no money for building societies to lend out to prospective house buyers and unemployment was sky high. 40 years on now own 2 properties - our children now live in one of them - with money in the bank etc etc good pension - unfortunately we cannot see into the future and in a few years time hopefully people will look back and wonder what they were worrying about

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 11:47:49

Fussychica, where is that possible in the south east?
Me and DH earn roughly 25K between us, a possible mortgage available of up to 70-80K, one bed properties around here in the SE are roughly 130K.
Oh and how do you save when you are paying £700 rent for a poorly maintained one bed flat paying 300 in council tax and utilities s month, then food, contence insurance, travel for jobs etc, etc.

The truth is that the handul of our peers who have got onto the property ladder either had extensive help from parents or received a large inheritance.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 12:00:46

Agree OTT - I have been made redundant twice and the most i can earn now is 22k. I am mid 30's and uni educated (still have the loan to prove it). Not many people i know of my age earn in the 30k's and most live in London. One bed flats rental £800-1000 per month in skanky areas. You couldn't buy much for £90k. The only people i know who own property had a lot of help. Apart from DH who was in the army, so heavily subsidised housing allowed him to save for a deposit.

DH was offered a job somewhere for 75k once but the logistics of moving to London meant we would be worse off. We could only get a £350k mortgage even with savings of £50k and then most of the salary would go on mortgage repayment. How shocking is that? if we can't do it on that money and be comfortable, then how the fuck can other people on 30k. It is so soul destroying.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 12:01:10

OTTMummA - you could buy in the North.

wordfactory Tue 19-Mar-13 12:05:07

My issue with the baby boomers is not that they have done well - good luck to them.
Nor that they receive a few benefits they don't need - it'll probably cost more to work out who does need them and then there will always be losers.

No, my issue is their attitude... they seem so certain that they dserve their good fortune. They seem so certain that they have paid their dues (most won't have). And they seem in complete denial as to how difficult it is for young people today.

The cost of living is through the roof. House prices are ridiculous. You can't get a mortgage for love or money. Tertiary eductaion is eyewatering. Unemployment is high. Final salary pensions are a distant memory. There is bugger all social housing.

Yet they yap on about how easy young people have it! They talk about scroungers not working while conveninetly forgetting all the ahrd working families that will never have what they have had.

Absy Tue 19-Mar-13 12:08:03

Yeah, I don't think some people get how unaffordable properties are, especially in London and the South East.

For e.g., DH has a colleague who was applying for a mortgage in a non-fabulous area of London (North East, quite deprived area). He has a good, stable, very well paid job and his wife is a teacher. They have a lot of savings (tens of thousands) and two young children.

They were turned down for a mortgage for a three bedroom flat in non-fabulous area because:
- Part of their savings came from bonuses that he had earned through his job, and he could lose his job and/or not get any more bonuses and this was too risky
- They have two children in nursery, which is expensive and if he loses his job, they would still have this expense.
The mortgage provider didn't think that the nursery expenses would be gone within about 3 years (freeing up more income) and that pretty much anyone at any point in time could lose their job.

It's gone so extremely the other way - for first time buyers, if you want to pay a non-ruinous interest rate, you have to put at least a 20/25% deposit. Given that the average house price for Greater London is around 450k, that means before you even try getting a mortgage you have to have over £125k savings. If you try the HSBC mortgage calculator, for a capital repayment 30 year mortgage, your monthly repayments will be £1,5k.

How on earth are people supposed to afford that?

Absy Tue 19-Mar-13 12:11:21

And yes, say your job is dependant on living in London, you could move to the commuter belt where property is marginally cheaper. But then you need to take into account around £300 pm commuting costs (for the train) + transport in London (£117 per month). You also then need to take into account longer journey times which may also mean higher childcare costs, or reducing the hours of one parent to part time or to stop working at all, but that means less income.

Or, you could move further north - only problem is, there's a shortage of jobs.

So pretty much anyway you look at it, you're screwed.

Absy Tue 19-Mar-13 12:14:02

And, I am also in the (unbelievably) fortunate position to have only had to pay around £1,000 per year tuition fees. The poor kids who entered university this year, unless they have stonkingly wealthy parents, are going to graduate with tens of thousands worth of debt. It will be decades before they can afford to buy houses etc.

landofsoapandglory Tue 19-Mar-13 12:21:44

Absy, DS1 is 18 and just about to take his A levels. He has 10 GCSEs at A and A* and just got 3As in his January modules. Despite having 5 University offers, he is almost certain he isn't going because he wants to be an Army Officer. if he goes in as a Private he can transfer later on, if he goes to Uni then can't get in as an Officer he would still want to join the Army as a normal soldier but would be saddled with a massive amount of debt he would never clear!sad.

I feel so sorry for the young people being faced with these decisions.

HintofBream Tue 19-Mar-13 12:24:35

What do you mean, wordfactory, when you say most pensioners won't have paid their dues? Do you mean taxes or what? Yet another generaliser who also says we oldies don't realise how hard it is for the young.

wordfactory Tue 19-Mar-13 12:30:09

Most people will not pay more into the pot through taxes than they will cost the country.

To be a net contributor you have to be quite a high earner indeed. Most current pensioners will not have been a net contributor. And the longer they live, the less likely they will have contributed sufficent funds to make them a net contributor.

Which is fine.

But to them go on about how they've paid for their perks is just plain wrong.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 12:47:29

isn't the main problem that actuaries underestimated the rise in life expectancy resulting in unsustainable pension obligations.

so baby boomers thought they were paying in the 'right amount' but the sums were wrong leaving later generations to pick up the tab.

at the same time the later generations are subject to global economic competition previous generations did not face.

nagynolonger Tue 19-Mar-13 12:57:01

People of all ages tend to justify their good fortune as a result o hard work. I'm sure DC & NC etc worked very hard while they were at Eton.

The babyboomers had their share of that. Their parents benefited greatly from the high interest rates of the time. They did nothing special to get that but their children were the ones paying. Lots of well off pensioners disappeared off to Spain for the winter (claimed WFA) and when their DC moaned how they were struggling. The response was tighten your belts we worked hard...we won the war we deserve it.

nagynolonger Tue 19-Mar-13 13:00:18

Not sure Nick Clegg went to Eton! But I'm sure he didn't go local comp.

AnnabelKarma Tue 19-Mar-13 13:16:11

Westminster.

nagy
Nick Clegg went to Westminster, so definitely not the local comp.

This is a difficult area but I do remember being quite surprised to see a company director I knew using his freedom pass (over 60's free travel in London) on the tube. He quite literally lived in a mansion in the Cotswolds.

lainiekazan Tue 19-Mar-13 13:20:34

I don't see how it can be solved.

Means testing would inevitably hurt those on modest incomes. There would come a point when the income of those in receipt of benefits and those having them taken away would collide, or even cross. This is done in Italy and now the worst off people are those with small pensions - they have to pay for prescriptions and even doctors appointments whilst those with nothing continue to get everything free or subsidised.

I do think that all pensioners should have to pay for care. 100%. All those arguing against it are just concerned about their inheritances. If you want to take in your mum/dad/granny and change their nappies - fine - you keep your inheritance. If you want someone else to do it then - unfortunately - you cough up. Furthermore, I think there should be dormitory-style clean and safe care homes for everyone but, if you have large assets, then you can pay for somewhere more fancy. Then that stops the anomaly of someone in the next bed getting the same care free when you are paying from your savings.

MissRenataFlitworth Tue 19-Mar-13 13:45:13

So what do you want us pensioners to do? I don't own my own home - could never afford to buy as a single parent with one modest salary. I pay full rent and council tax and the only benefits I get are my pension, the WFA and free prescriptions. I can't remember the last time I saw my GP so I don't think I'm costing the country much for those. I pay my own dentist and optician bills, and pay income tax on my modest occupational pension.

We are not all uncaring freeloaders. When I was young my cohort was called "the back end of the bulge" - that is the last year of the post-war increase(1947) in the birth rate. Successive governments have known for 60 years that there would be an increase in the numbers of people reaching pension age now, and apparently have done little or nothing to plan for it.

Don't tar us all with the same brush, please.

nagynolonger Tue 19-Mar-13 13:55:53

Yes the pension time bomb was talked about for years. Governments of both colours stuck their heads in the sand because doing anything to sort it out sooner was a vote loser.

They couldn't even link an increase in births = more school places in 4/5 years time.

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 13:56:38

Missrenata, urm, were are not!
Read the thread, it is wrt wealthy pensioners who can afford to live without those benefits.
I'm not a cold hearted bitch, my nan is 67, she is very dear to me, she has downsized over the last 20yrs has a modest pension and savings.
She has less than 10K a yr income but still gives her WFA to charity, not that she should as she is far from wealthy.

I begrudge and find it frankly disgusting that pensioners who have more than

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 14:05:06

Than plenty are still able to claim free bus passes, free prescriptions and WFA whilst young families and the disabled are squeezed into shoddy inappropriate housing some with gas meters so they end up paying more for utilities as well and charged over the odds for the simple privilege off having a roof over their heads.

People banging on about means testing isn't worth it because of cost, well same goes for universal credit, the system is costing more than it will save, but no no, that's ok to take money from people who ACTUALLY NEED IT, because well they are just scroungers who haven't worked as hard as those wealthy baby boomers.

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 14:09:16

Eliza 600 i have found the post i mentioned upthread. You said the same thing on another thread last month ....how much harder it was in the 70s and my DH who is the same generation as you disagreed with you.
Here is the post from that thread.

DarkesteyesSun 03-Feb-13 00:43:41

Eliza ive just asked my almost 63 yr old DH (hes a baby boomer too but without the baby boomer attitude)
He says it was better in the 70s that is now and that it was easier then because he was doing 3 12 hr days so that was 36 hrs in 3 days and then the other 2 days they used a generator which was shared between 3 small factories (note the lack of "im alright jack" here.) this was shared between 360 employees between the three sites. Food and drink was laid on for the employees FREE. In the circumstances ive described here from DH he says it was easier then BECAUSE THERE WAS WORK and you could finish in one factory one day and start in another the next day even with this 3 day week.
While this was all going on they were given fuel ration cards but you only had to mention where you worked to the garage and they guaranteed you would have the fuel.
All these companies ive mentioned were looking out for each other. DH says it was easier back then that it is now. (fuel ration cards they were given didnt even have to be used. Can you imagine that kind of selflessness happening now? Ha. Not by some of the attitudes ive seen on here!
Within this ten mile radius there were 7 contract firms which did the work for the bigger companies.
Now they would be fighting each other for contracts but back then they simply helped each other out with steel,materials etc which never got delivered because of the shortage of fuel.
Eliza DH has just said it was a completely different world back then so it cant be compared.
And they got paid OVERTIME RATE even on the 3 day week.

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 14:14:48

Abra1dTue 19-Mar-13 08:26:04

Even by MN fruitloop standards this thread is off the scale.

People who 'voted' for the Falklands War (don't remember that vote) are responsible for increased price rises and 'pulled a ladder up'? Er, how did that work? Was there another vote called something like 'Let's deliberately make our own children and grandchildrens' lives harder?' Gosh, yes, let's all vote for that because we hate our own children, don't we?

Those of you lamenting the fact your parents or in-laws have big houses better hope you are good and anonymous on this thread. Or they may not leave them to you . I bet you won't be complaining when Daddy leaves you his house in Barnes, will you? Hypocrisy, much?

There is a difference between SAHMs funded by their husbands and deliberately single mothers funded by the state, ie women who let themselves 'fall' pregnant even though there is no man in their life and no job to support themselves.

MYSOGYNY ALERT MYSOGYNY ALERT.

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 14:22:42

Haha!!
So women that get pregnant without being married are feckless are they?
You are aware that if you have children whilst married and scone a sham, upon divorce you become a Duh, duh, duh,,,,,, single mother who will end up entitled to benefits and you won't be paid alimony or whatever any more in the uk.

You know that right???

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 14:27:38

OTT my last post wasnt my view it was a copy and paste to show some of the sexism and mysogyny on this thread.

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 14:50:24

I don't give a toss, either, what the past was like. It's gone now. I just think that everyone should share in the cuts. If they must apply to children, and they do via DLA cuts (DLA is not means tested it is a benefit administered to even disabled children to cover the extra cost that goes with their disability), then those over 60 should have their share, too.

infamouspoo Tue 19-Mar-13 14:55:41

what Expat said. We should all be in it together and that includes wealthy pensioners. they are no more or less deserving than disabled children and disabled under 65's who are taking the brunt of the cuts.

twofingerstoGideon Tue 19-Mar-13 15:43:33

infamouspoo Surely wealthy pensioners are less deserving than disabled children and disabled under 65s. Well, they are IMO.

HintofBream Tue 19-Mar-13 16:49:05

But they are certainly more deserving than those who choose to live on benefits.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 16:57:30

Of whom hint are being dealt with.

There are a huuuuuuge long list of cuts that affect us all and it's time wealthy pensioners lost benefits they don't need and which could save cuts elsewhere.

Why exactly should they be exempt and hardworking families face continuously being penalised?Wealthy pensioners only have to think of themselves,hard working families have children to support.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 17:16:32

'Those of you lamenting the fact your parents or in-laws have big houses better hope you are good and anonymous on this thread. Or they may not leave them to you . I bet you won't be complaining when Daddy leaves you his house in Barnes, will you? Hypocrisy, much?'

what i say on this thread will come as no surprise to my parents - we discuss politics often. personally i doubt they'll be much left for me and even then i hope it wont be till i'm in my 50's, so i really wont be waiting round! I would prefer a fairer society where i can make my own way, without harming the next generations chances to do the same.

But, even if what you said were correct i don't see how it is hypocrisy to accept your inheritence, once taxed etc, but still not think someone wealthy should get benefits when others are suffering.

marjproops Tue 19-Mar-13 17:30:55

Love the SCAMERON name. we should stick to calling him that grin

HintofBream Tue 19-Mar-13 17:39:08

I have two children; I would dearly have liked to have more, but back in the seventies we were poor and could not afford to raise any more. I was a SAHM when they were tiny, but then worked FT for the next thirty two years, in the expectation of a reasonable public service pension in lieu of the sort of salary those in the private sector earned. Having worked and saved for so long, and now watching the government muck aboout with our pensions, I cannot for the life of me see why I should have free prescroiptions removed from me in order that the feckless in our society should able to breed at will.

lainiekazan Tue 19-Mar-13 17:46:04

"reasonable pension in lieu of the sort of salary those in the private sector earned"

Now my piss is boiling. Anyone care to take a look at the salaries in the Guardian?

nagynolonger Tue 19-Mar-13 17:52:36

When will people take on board that not everyone in the private sector ends up with a gold plated pension.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 17:55:57

CAUTIONARY TALE: Do not read this thread then go and give yourself a face scrub with one of those dermaflannels recommended on S&B....well i certainly don't need a face peel now confused

crashdoll Tue 19-Mar-13 17:57:44

"the feckless in our society should able to breed at will."

Lovely attitude! Chip on your shoulder, much?

HintofBream Tue 19-Mar-13 18:01:40

Well, Crashdoll, should they, why?
I think the chippy shoulderson here belong to those making very spiteful and ageist remarks.

crashdoll Tue 19-Mar-13 18:13:09

Very few people have been ageist. We have criticised Scameron for ringfencing pensioners' benefits and for the attitude of some people regarding what they think they are entitled to.

I ask you again, why should pensioners be exempt from the cuts that are affecting everyone?!

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:13:56

And why should others pay for your free prescriptions when they didn't 'breed at will' just because you lived when you did? So what? Plenty of people 'work hard' and make sacrifices. It doesn't entitle anyone to FA.

I see zero reason why people over 60 shouldn't shoulder their share of the cuts, too, since all the rest of us are, including children and people who are too disabled to work.

If you are wealthy then you are wealthy whatever age you are. We have lost child benefit because I earn over the threshold. In our case we are wealthy enough not to need CB so it is reasonable that it is taken from us.

If you are a wealthy pensioner then you don't need some of the benefits you receive. If you are not a wealthy pensioner then you do need some or all of the benefits you receive and should get them.

Chottie Tue 19-Mar-13 18:18:44

Just to remind some posters that a lot of women who are over 50, did not go to university. They went straight out to work at 15, 16, 17, 18 and will now not retire until they are 66 or 67. That is a lot of years of paying in. I went to work at 17 and took out my first mortgage at 19 years old.

WaitingForPancakeDay Tue 19-Mar-13 18:20:34

I haven't everything but the invective and bile from some is incredible. Someone mentioned we're living through the biggest financial crisis of our time and that everyone should be having tighten their belts and bashing these baby boomers. Firstly, it's the second global financial crisis baby boomers have lived through and they had to deal with stupendous inflation, energy crisi, etc in the 70s and those pensioners even older, it's their third financial crisis. My grandmother lived through the 1930s, then the bankrupt post-war years. My mother remembers being continually hungry as a child and lived in poverty. She then pulled her self out of poverty and worked hard. She even went back to work 3 months after having me in the 70s, just so they could afford the house they were in...not because it was a super fandango house, but inflation was so bad, that wages could not cover the basic cost of living.

What they got from the NHS was excellent health care for its time, but eroded now because monies are diverted into state of the art medicines and treatments that we all benefit from.

That they worked hard to earn a pension on top of their state pension, good on them. My dad worked from 17 to 67, my mum is 65 and is still working, but yes, they are using the opportunity of their early pensionable years to go on nice holidays. And do you know what I think? Good idea, do it now while you're healthy. I am delighted that between them they get 30k a year because when their health is not so hot, that money will help them.

I firmly believe I won't get a state pension, but I do not begrudge those benefitting from the post war labour reform years.

On the other hand, my MIL frittered away any money she got on the silliest things, was miserable despite this and now penny pinches living off her state pension. She's the silly one.

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:23:46

'Just to remind some posters that a lot of women who are over 50, did not go to university. They went straight out to work at 15, 16, 17, 18 and will now not retire until they are 66 or 67. That is a lot of years of paying in.'

So what? Plenty of us in our 30s and 40s didn't go to uni, either, and we don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting much if anything when we are 70+. We'll be 'paying in' till we drop or are close to it.

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:25:47

So what? The past is the past. This is now. People shouldn't be exempted from cuts just because of their age. Children and the disabled aren't, so why shouldn't those who are over 60? Or MPs?

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:26:42

And we're talking about all these universal benefits, not the actual pension itself, which is a major portion of the welfare budget.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 18:29:23

surely the 'feckless' you talk about don't pay for prescriptions either. it's those who work who pay for prescriptions, which then subsidise all the free ones. i read a statistic ages ago - something like 30% of people pay for prescriptions and subsidise those who don't (this may be wildy innacurate and i'd be really grateful if someone knew the real figure of what percentage of prescriptions are paid for). some pensioners get prescriptions for paracetamol, rather than pay 25p for it. how about charging everyone a pound per prescription? unless they are below a certain income then it's free? i also think that about art galleries. sorry - getting sidetracked.

WaitingForPancakeDay Tue 19-Mar-13 18:31:21

I mentioned the past due to the attitude from some that this particular economic crisis is something new and appalling. I hope your point that the sat is the past is only related to this topic and not your attitude in general!

I have to say, I believe in universal benefits and was not happy at the child benefit changes. However, I still think that people here are incredibly bitter about the generation above them. People spitting bile about baby boomers benefitting from rising house prices, forgetting (or not being alive for) the housing collapse in the 80s....

WaitingForPancakeDay Tue 19-Mar-13 18:32:14

It would help if I could spell past...

wordfactory Tue 19-Mar-13 18:33:46

My ILs have gym and weight watchers subscriptions on the NHS. All free.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 18:35:09

I'm a pensioner. I don't have a bus pass, I give my winter fuel allowance to charity etc. as many of my pensioner friends also do.

May I politely point out to those who are having a meltdown about us wicked pensioners, that as a mum who had my kids in the 60s/70s and exactly 50 years in full time employment this debaty about who benefits from what works two ways.

For example, I had a very small amount of child benefit, one small one-off maternity grant (I bought a cot with it), no maternity pay, no maternity leave, no right to my job back, no working tax credits, no minimum wage, a top rate of income tax in 1975 of 83% (if you were in the higher tax bracket -pretty much the highest, if not the highest, in the world) and 31% if you were on a median wage basic taxpayer. If you were out of work, the level of benefits available now would have made those of us in the dole queue green with envy.

Many of us pensioners are helping out adult children to the tune of many thousands of pounds a year (I certainly am) as we don't want them to undergo the same hardships as my generation and my parents' generation did and doing it at a time when our savings are being seriously eroded by the effect of the baking crisis and credit crunch, not to mention the life on a credit card mentality of some with an attitude of see it, want it now, stick it on the credit card..

We hear about how hard it is to get a house (yes, that's why us wicked pensioners are stumping up for our adult children), having to pay for university (at least over 40% of young people have the opportunity to attend - places were limited to 10% in the 50s/60s).

I do get fed up with this attitude that us 70 plus generation are selfish and rolling in wealth when the reality is that most of us were a post war generation who worked silly hours for our families and saved every spare penny without expecting, or getting, very much from the state at all.

WaitingForPancakeDay Tue 19-Mar-13 18:36:34

Well said grimbletart smile

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 18:38:47

Grimble that is all by the by if you are wealthy you should still not be getting benefits.

Oh and most people work silly hours and expect little from the state,pensioners don't have the monopoly on it or any entitlement to state benefits.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 18:39:01

baking crisis? - banking crisis of course grin

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:42:54

What Kazoo said. Couldn't care less about how it was then, how hard you worked, how you didn't have a microwave and blah blah blah, no one should be exempted from the cuts. If children and the disabled aren't, then no one should be. If you're wealthy enough, you don't get benefits (I'm leaving out state pension as a benefit, even though it comprises the welfare budget), universal benefits should be abolished. Link them to those in receipt of Pension Credit via HMRC the way they did CB.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 18:43:10

Kazooblue - I agree re wealthy, but as you can't opt out of, say fuel payments, the next best is to give it to charity. Things like bus passes you simply don't claim for.

Never said pensioners had a monopoly - just pissed off at the way assumptions are made about us as if we are some amorphous block of self-entitled selfish old bags.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 18:44:44

Couldn't care less about how it was then, how hard you worked

well then don't expect sympathy from anyone else. if they apply your rules, your troubles will soon be history and we can forget about them.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 18:45:17

i remember the baking crisis - i couldn't get an apple pie for love nor money wink

the problem with these kinds of debates is they turn into the yorkshire men sketch from monty python. the facts are people are struggling now and everyone needs to chip in.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 18:46:06

No the next best thing would be to get rid of wasting all benefits on wealthy pensioners.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 18:46:30

expat - where did I say we should be exempted?

What a straw man argument.

PS it is clear that many on this thread don't care how it was then from reading the comments. Fortunately your lack of care is not reciprocated by many in my generation or we wouldn't be bailing our sons and daughters out....

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:47:42

Plenty of assumptions, too, about how everyone under 60 is feckless, has gadgets, breeds at will, don't work hard, blah blah blah.

It comes down to this: if we're all in this together, then no one is exempted from the cuts.

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:48:54

'What a straw man argument.'

My only argument is that everyone should bear their fair share of the cuts.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 18:49:22

no we aren't all in it together - you just said you dont care how hard people had it in the past.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 18:50:07

Re Dispatches by the way to go back to the OP - there should be health warning on this programme. Whenever Dispatches used to come on to us years ago (I worked in a charity and Dispatches love to have pops at charities) we knew there was an agenda and the programme was angled and cut to fit that agenda. The only programme we were happy to empty chair.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 18:50:37

the thing is Grimble, it's lovely you help your kids, but lots of people don't/can't, which creates an uneven playing field. it would just have been better if it weren't so fucking hard to do it on your own rather than rely on the lottery of benevolent parents.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 18:52:35

I can understand being priced out of the housing marketing if you are in your twenties but if you are in your mid/late thirties or older, you really need to look to yourself.

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:52:48

'no we aren't all in it together - you just said you dont care how hard people had it in the past. '

And? We are in the here and now, Faster. It doesn't matter what happened in the past, we have this to deal with no. And right now we are not all in this together.

infamouspoo Tue 19-Mar-13 18:53:19

what does that meanFasterstronger?

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 18:53:47

*My only argument is that everyone should bear their fair share of the cuts.

Quite right too - so I am not sure why you are taking a pop at me for pointing out that posters ranting at pensioners were making sweeping generalisations about a generation that, contrary to their views, were not necessarily rolling in a land of milk and honey.

Kazooblue Tue 19-Mar-13 18:53:59

No Grimble this is an issue which has been festering for a while.Many people are getting mighty hacked off with the unfairness re protecting the grey vote. Paxman wrote a very good article on this very subject last year.Ths has come up a lot on threads.

If te gov carry on doing this the resentment will grow and said Dispatches show(which I thought was quite mild) will only be the tip of the iceberg.

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 18:54:57

It doesn't matter what happened in the past it doesn't to you, but it does to those who went through it.

and older people vote.

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:56:30

'I can understand being priced out of the housing marketing if you are in your twenties but if you are in your mid/late thirties or older, you really need to look to yourself.'

Here we go again . . .

At any rate, this government will not cut any of these universal benefits any more than they will end their £130/week grocery budget they receive in addition to a heavily-subsidised bar and canteen and all the other perks with tens of millions they get.

So the only solution is to get rid of them in 2015.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 18:57:41

I was the only one of my friends who bought when i was 25 after saving massively when i left uni. we had 100% mortgage at the height of the market (the 6k we saved just covered the fees sad ). We have only just sold the flat which was on the market for 3 years and sold it for much much less than paid for it. We just broke even with fees etc. So i don't see how being mid 30's makes any difference.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 18:57:51

MrsKoala - I agree, but that has always been the case. It's a fact of the economic boom/bust cycle.

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 18:59:21

A pop at you? Get over it! It's not All About You.

crashdoll Tue 19-Mar-13 19:00:56

I'm not sure how relevant it is how it was then, this is now and we are all in financial crisis. The welfare state was never about who puts the most in, gets the most out. If it was, we wouldn't help disabled people, some of whom will need 24 hour care and may never be able to put in. So, I'm not sure why people keep saying "I paid in for 40 years"?

FasterStronger Tue 19-Mar-13 19:01:13

if you were 25 in 2007, you are 30-31 now.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 19:01:56

Kazooblue - I don't see why protecting the grey vote is right either.

My post - which seems to have raised a few hackles - was me being fed up with the unfair stereotyping of pensioners. It seemed only fair to point out that life was not all hunky dory for us either. We had our struggles just like younger people. It seems that ageism is about the only ism that is not taboo.
Well, I shall continue to challenge ageism just like we challenge sexism and racism.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 19:03:50

You now what expat - It's not All About You either. Get over it.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 19:05:20

no i'm 36, but the flat i bought peaked in 'value' when i bought it. It never went up, it reached a ceiling (some local projects had been in the pipeline and were cancelled i think that was why). Anyway, we paid way too much, my parents kept saying, you've got to buy/rent is wasted etc.

expatinscotland Tue 19-Mar-13 19:05:46

I never said it was. You made out like those who disagree are having a dig at you personally. They're not. Welcome to MN.

And Get Over It, well, I've already stated, this government will do nothing about these universal benefits, so if you disagree with them, best vote them out in 2015.

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 19:07:24

altho actually now i think of it i was probably 26. so much for the end of the boom and bust cycle - cheers Gordon sad

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 19:12:03

Thanks expat for the welcome, but I have been on MN for a while. I should have realised that using the personal pronoun would bring accusations of It's Not All About You...good old MN cliche. grin

Vote them out in 2015? Good idea, except of course we'd be voting back in the mob who contributed to the economic disaster in the first place (NB I said "contributed" - not responsible for).

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 19:13:26

Bugger - my dinner's burning...shall have to leave things there for now..

CloudsAndTrees Tue 19-Mar-13 19:13:27

no one should be exempted from the cuts. If children and the disabled aren't, then no one should be.

At a random guess, I'd think that there are likely to be more disabled pensioners being affected by the cuts to disability benefits than there are disabled children, just because so many people are affected by age related disabilities.

bassetfeet Tue 19-Mar-13 19:13:47

You know what ?
of course we are are all in this together . I am the hated boomer generation .
But am a mum too who helps my adult children. We live within the pension credit field .

I of course think everyone should share the burden . My children are your generation for goodness sake !!!

Am so sad with some of the comments here . One day if unlucky you will be older and unable to do the heavy manual work that you did . It isnt just your generation who get the short straw.
At least there are health and safety laws to protect you . My OH was on call 24/7 .....phone call at 1am usual after a full day at work regardless. And no . no overtime payment . Bad yes? We just were glad for the work.

Oh and must mention ......no child care or nurseries in my day that would take my children at 7am . We coped by no sleep during the day honest.

emotional ? yes ..........sad that you think we are all free loading off you .

MrsKoala England Tue 19-Mar-13 19:21:11

I don't think anyone thinks you are free loading, just that if you can afford it, you don't need wfa. nothing to do with how long and hard you worked.

crashdoll Tue 19-Mar-13 19:22:26

Clouds Oh well, that's ok then! We should definitley continue to give wealthy pensioners non-means tested benefits (DLA and other disability benefits exempt from this) because many of them are disabled. hmm

crashdoll Tue 19-Mar-13 19:23:53

basset No one hates you, you couldn't help being born then, any more than a baby born 10 minutes ago could help being born in 2013!

bassetfeet Tue 19-Mar-13 19:34:38

Thank you Mrs Koala and crashdoll .........sorry for emotional rant .
I needed grounding a bit there .
And yes to the means tested benefits for all . Never have thought otherwise .
thank you both .

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 20:17:42

grimbletart here are some good examples of ageism
The over 60s get WFA regardless of their health.
The under 60s dont even if they have an illness or disability (believe me a person under 60 undergoing cancer treatment feels the cold with a vengence.

People on jobseekers are eligible for workfare
People just turned 60 on pension credit are exempt. (workfare creates MORE unemployment I linked a Red Pepper article into another thread which mentioned a pizza company who took 100 workfarers who were working for those jobseekers and getting NO WAGE. if it was the 1970s when there was no workfare those jobs would still need doing so they would have been waged.

And while people on this thread are slagging off young people here is another good example of agism
The fact that the younger you are the LOWER minimum wage you get. And before we get any comments saying "well they dont need to be paid any more because they can live with their parents" not all young people have that choice due to an abusive home life or being orphaned.

Grimbletart all people are annoyed about is the ATTITUDE shown by the golf club pensioners in last nights programme. I dont see how that is being agist.
However as you see from my examples agism works both ways. But i dont see people standing up for the agism directed at young people with the same volition that they stand up for agism when its directed at older people.

grimbletart Tue 19-Mar-13 20:39:25

Hi Darkesteyes: I could give some more really personal examples to match yours from my generation, but were I to do so I would probably get more of the It's Not All About You MN cliche again, so I'll desist.

I did not see the Dispatches programme (maybe I should pick it up on the computer) but what you say about golf club pensioners leads me to point back to my personal experience over many years of Dispatches (that I mentioned upthread) i.e. Dispatches always have an agenda and then pick their interviews to fit that agenda, no matter how representative or unrepresentative they are of an issue or a population at large. Dispatches needs to be watched with a sackful of salt at hand.

tazzle22 Tue 19-Mar-13 20:40:12

Its just so sad when a whole generation gets lambasted in this way.

I do agree that whichever generation one is benefits should not be universally paid out, they should be reserved for times of need / support.

There seems to be some sort of perception that all us babyboomers lived in a time of plenty and suffered no hardships ...... as others have pointed out that is just as true as todays "truth" that there are never any people on benefits that prefer to stay that way than work wink. Both statments have an element of truth but are hardly universal !!!!

Many of us babyboomers worked hard to get Britain out of the post war depression and were part of the generation that were involved in establishing the welfare / NHS systems that have been benefitting several generations since. Of course now we are so good at keeping people alive, and we expect so much more out of life, that its just "not enough".

We are also part of yet another recession....... as pointed out before hard times are not exclusive to this generation.

Apart from a brief period when I had two children under school age I have always worked............ because I had to, we could hardly survive on a servicemans salary (and nurses not brilliantly paid either !). My children were clothed from a thrift shop and I certainly knew how to make meals cheaply !!! My grandchildren on the other hand have never had to wear charity chop clothes even when their mothers were in receipt of benefits for short periods after partnership breakups. With support from us ( financial and childcare) they were soon off benefits and into work and moved on.

We have a house but other than that live frugally and certainly am not one of those swanning off overseas for holidays ....... I still work because I have to financially and the retiring age just keeps getting moved upwards !

Another problem is that us babyboomers keep some things afloat .....when we all finally retire there will be a lot lesss money being paid into the pot for all the services /benefits and for example the care profession will I doubt have enough people to run it. There are less young people working in it these days, the larger percentage are now in thier 50's and 60's.

I actually fear my old age beacuse I can see how things pan out ...... and I fear even more for my children and grandchildren.

Chottie Tue 19-Mar-13 21:32:28

Thank you grimbletart for your voice of reason

OTTMummA Tue 19-Mar-13 21:35:00

grimbletart I am in no way a fool who swallows without questioning it what i am fed, but really you should watch the Dispatches programme.

You can not deny the attitude and sense of entitlement of the golf club buddies.
I have just watched it on Iplayer again and i actually cried a little, the blatent ageism, selfishness and disregard of how times are now for working age people trying to cope with cuts is disgusting.

No one has attacked all pensioners on here, it is the attitude of those represented in the programme that has caused such rage

All of us have friends or family who are pension age and i don't think any of us would begrudge a WFA or liveable pension for people who NEED it.
But there are pensioners who can do without, they should be included in the cuts just like everyone else.
As it stands nothing * absolutley* nothing has been revised wrt pensioner benefits, that is simply outrageous.

Can i ask if someone has the answer to my question,, i am sure i read somewhere recently that within the next 3 yrs you will only be able to claim DLA for one person per househould?

timidviper Tue 19-Mar-13 21:36:38

With regard to the posters saying how comfortable life was for their parents in the 70s and 80s, surely that is exactly the point this thread is making, they are the generation we are saying are now having it easier as relatively young pensioners and proves the point that that particular age group have hit the crest of the prosperity wave all through.

My parents were ahead of that, born around 1930 and never wealthy, they really struggled financially when we were young in the 1960s. DH and I were born right at the end of the baby boom and although we have definitely had it easier than our childrens' generation, we have not had it as easy as those 10-15 years ahead of us and we face later retirement, lower pensions, etc.

I agree with those saying it is not the money, that is just luck, it is the attitude that rankles

HintofBream Tue 19-Mar-13 22:40:40

Grimbletart indeed the voice of reason. I've just caught up with tonight's posts because I have been at an AmDram performance, where, shock horror, my ticket only cost £7 not £8 because I am a grasping OAP.

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 22:43:05

FFS Hint NO ONE here is having a go at all pensioners. It is the ATTITUDE of the ones on that programme.
REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT!!

Darkesteyes Tue 19-Mar-13 22:44:54

Just for emphasis...

DarkesteyesMon 18-Mar-13 20:51:11

It was the im alright jack attitudes of those pensioners in that golf club that pissed me off.
They were going on about how people just a decade or more younger than them were "scroungers"
They had it easier with housing and jobs than any other generation. They didnt have to compete to get a paying job from a company that uses workfare.
Can you IMAGINE the uproar if workfare had been around while they were still working.
i NEVER EVER thought id live to see the day when Peter fucking STRINGFELLOW put someone to shame but thats exactly what he did with the golf club pensioners.
And that one at the end laughing and saying "ooh id bet next years membership on it. Sickening.
And before anyone starts i dont mind them getting these benefits or at least some of these benefits.
Its their attitude about it and their attitudes towards others who havent been as lucky as them which STINKS!

Redbindy Tue 19-Mar-13 22:52:59

All I'm seeing in this thread is lot of anecdotal stories and some I'll considered and uncosted reasons for removing benefits from unpleasant people. Winter fuel allowance is a couple of hundred quid, I don't know what the internal lab our rates of the DWP are but I would imagine it would cost a bit more than 200 to assess a persons elegibility.

Redbindy Tue 19-Mar-13 22:55:09

ill not I'll

expatinscotland Wed 20-Mar-13 02:24:26

Either we're all in this or we're not. And we're not. The past is just that. It's gone, people! It matters nowt. Zero hours contacts, sanctions, rising retirement ages, 3p/litre more come April.

And now we have a government who in a few hours will fuck all of us but themselves and perhaps, right now, whilst it serves them, their 'grey vote'. And when their policies take effect come April and later, there will be resentment and possibly worse. And they want us to hate one another. It takes our eyes off them and their cronies, of every party, who fucked us all. Over and over, for 20+ years. Every one of them.

Look at Cyprus. Everyone to pay for the cock ups of the few, who are nowhere to be found or surrounded by walls higher than any castle. You all scrabble amidst the rushes like the plebs you are, arguing about what wars you fought and what hardships you endured, we're after your money whilst you buy us £130/week in groceries, second or more homes in the Southeast, and subsidised booze after our hard working day. Scameron received the very DLA he's yanked for all other disabled children.

Divide and rule! Inflation was known to rise yesterday. And they sit, over £60k/week for their canteen and bars, imposing tax after tax and duty after duty on us.

Wag that dog!

lotsofdogshere Wed 20-Mar-13 08:39:39

I didn't see dispatches, but feel I can recognise the self satisfied right wing folks who made up the golf club members. These people seemed to rule the world when I was in my teens, and I guess that influenced so many of us to join the women's movement, left wing politics, go into public service rather than make much more money in the private sector. Before anyone shoots me, that's how it was, you accepted you'd never earn a lot but you'd be putting something back into society, and paying in to a pension scheme. There is such a lot of anger in this thread - it's been a relief to see comments from older women whose own families, like mine have had it tough for generations, in one way or another. I know times are tough, that's life really, we have to get on with it, and it's much more pleasant if we do so with kindness to each other. I can rant with the best of us but really ......

nkf Wed 20-Mar-13 09:00:08

I was intrigued enough by this thread to watch the programme on iplayer and I can't see why everyone is so frothing. It was actually very measured and reasonable. I thought. What it revealed (to me at any rate) is that if you give people benefits, they soon feel they have an absolute right to them. In that way, no different to child benefit and working tax credits.

The golf club men had clearly been prosperous in their working lives and so were prosperous in retirement. I remain unconvinced that they - and Stringfellow - are typical oaps. If you've been a minimum wage earner all your life, you must be pretty skint in old age.

I was convinced by the argument that Cameron made a mistake and gave a promise that he shouldn't have. And that the promise that these benefts are safe for the "lifetime of this Parliamnet" is a clear warning that there are cuts for pensioners coming.

grimbletart Wed 20-Mar-13 09:13:24

OK - one last attempt to clarify that I am not against pensioners taking their share of the cuts. I am - all benefits should go to those that really need them.

What I was objecting to was the attitude by some in the thread that was generalising about greedy pensioners as if it was typical of all pensioners and as if pensioners were all from a generation that had it easy compared to the hardships now faced by younger people.

My post was intended not to set generation against generation but to point out that certainly my war-baby generation did not inhabit some golden period and were unsympathetic and selfish as a generation. As with younger people there are selfish and unselfish amongst us and just as young people must get tired of being labelled as if they were all the same we crumblies also get tired of being labelled simply because of our age.

nagynolonger Wed 20-Mar-13 09:20:44

Well I have managed to watch it now.

I know much of how it comes across must be down to the editing.

The four men do come across as UKIP types really which might be unfair. They are chatting away with the nice man from the telly who is he admits one of them. Their guard is definately down. I wonder what their wives children and grandchildren think! I would be mortified if that 75 yearold (retired 20 years) was my dad. My Ddad would have been nearly 80 now but he died before pension age. It was all from the self-made, didn't I do good male point of view. It's a pity there was nothing much from a woman. They chose a golf club so they could get what they wanted. Fit retired men with plenty of spare time and money. And maybe few drinks inside them.

Also thought they (TV) purposely compared circumstances of these 4 with the city kids who nolonger get EMA. Middle Britain really hated EMA because 'yoof' wasted it on driving lessons or going out. More importantly their own DC didn't get it. Scrapping EMA was a vote winner for the tories and toothless libdems let them do it. I know EMA gave a real boost to less well off rural teens.

IMO these are not typical pensioners.

nagynolonger Wed 20-Mar-13 09:24:01

Prog made Stringfellow look like a very nice chap!

nkf Wed 20-Mar-13 09:28:10

Prog made Stringfellow look like a very nice chap!
I know! Never thought I'd see the day...