A child has urinated all over ds.

(224 Posts)
PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 17:58:58

I'm not sure if I am over reacting or not.
Ds is 5 and in primary one. The boy in question is also 5 and in the same class as ds.

Firstly in February I had a letter sent home saying my ds was outside the toilet cubicle with his pants down and had lost 'Golden time' because of this. I asked him about it and his reason was that he was in the toilet doing a poo and the boy pushed him off the seat and told him he was to use another toilet.
When I called the school with that story they said that isn't what they had heard and as far as they knew that isn't what happened.
So, today at my work I got a call.
Ds has been involved in an insistent, he was sitting on the toilet and another boy opened the door, entered and wee'd all over him. He has been changed, is no longer upset and the other boy's parents have been called.

At first I thought that the school had dealt with it well and appropriately, until I got my son off the school bus and he had an entire change of clothes, his own clothes in a bag, completely soaking wet, I'm talking woollen jumper, trousers, poloshirt, vest and pants, all soaking. This boy had done a full wee on him.
I asked him about it, and it turns out it was the same boy who pushed him off the toilet in February.
About ten minutes later the school called me. I expected it to be about the insistent. It was his teacher asking me for my permission to sent ds to speech and language therapy. I brought up that it was the same boy who they said hadn't pushed ds off the toilet before and again she said 'no that didn't happen as far as we are aware'.

I doubt my son has made up that he was pushed off a toilet seat by the same boy who has wee'd all over him a month later.
I don't know if I should meet with the school or leave it at this. I mean there is nothing else that can be done about today, but if this is an on going thing then I'd like them to realise it and not just dismiss me.
What would you do?

Flobbadobs Mon 18-Mar-13 18:02:35

Ask for a meeting with the teacher. If your DS had been changed then someone must know about it, strange that the teacher apparently doesn't though, I wouldn't take a good view of that at all.

EricNorthmansFangBanger Mon 18-Mar-13 18:02:41

Personally I would go in a create merry hell. How do they know for sure it wasn't the same boy? Are they taking the other boy's word for it or do they have proof it wasn't him? What is going to happen to they boy who wee'd all over your DS? I get they're only 5 but seriously that other child should know better!

cleofatra Mon 18-Mar-13 18:03:51

I'm amazed that the incident has just been left like that. I can imagine someone coming in and urinating all over you could be quite traumatic.

Lovelygoldboots Mon 18-Mar-13 18:04:38

They are fobbing you off. Speak to head. The evidence speaks for itself.

Euphemia Mon 18-Mar-13 18:04:51

I would speak to the school, push it as they're not taking you seriously.

Ask them to look into what happened: have they questioned each child, separately? Any witnesses?

How are they so sure that what your DS said happened didn't? What are they saying happened? Why do they think your DS is telling a different story?

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 18:08:14

It was the head teacher who called me today at work and dealt with it as from what I can gather it happened at lunch time.
I offered to come and collect him at the time but they said he was fine now.

I have no idea how she can be so certain that this boy didn't push ds off the toilet last month but she seems to be. I wrote the school a letter naming the same boy last month. The teacher called me at the time saying it didn't happen and when ds got off the bus and named him again that is what set alarm bells ringing that this may be an ongoing thing they haven't picked up on.

Geordieminx Mon 18-Mar-13 18:08:46

I would go bat shit...

If an adult pissed all over another adult it would be classed as assault surely?

That's vile. So sorry for your ds

BlackholesAndRevelations Mon 18-Mar-13 18:09:19

Bloody hell!! Way to give him a fear of school toilets. The poor boy. Agree with the merry hell comment, and they need to deal with this boy harshly. He needs to learn to leave others alone when they're on the toilet. sad angry

ClaimedByMe Mon 18-Mar-13 18:10:44

I am sure, but no expert, that urinating on someone is assault, this needs to be nipped in the bud now, if this is what he is doing at 5 what will he be doing in 5 years time...

NuhichNuhaymuh Mon 18-Mar-13 18:12:43

Absolutely go into the school. Do not let it go.

What an utter disgrace, theirs incident alone possibly could be classed as a "we can't say who is telling the truth" incident. If his clothes were soaking then there can be no denying it

NuhichNuhaymuh Mon 18-Mar-13 18:14:01

theirs incident = the first incident

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 18:14:35

They have contacted the wee boys parents and said he won't be going to the toilet unsupervised from now on, which is fair enough, I don't know if there is anything else they can do but still I'm angry.
There is parents evening on Thursday. Would it be advisable to wait until then or go up tomorrow just for a chat?

SmiteYouWithThunderbolts Mon 18-Mar-13 18:14:47

This is horrendous! I would go absolutely ape shit. Don't be fobbed off by the head. Go to the board of governors if you must, but keep pushing until they do something significant.

Your poor ds sad 5 is such a tender age to experience this level of bullying.

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 18:17:07

Oh yeah the first one where the lad pushed him off the toilet is the one they are unsure about. There is no hiding the second one, the head teacher caught the boy doing it, she actually went in the toilet while it was happening.

Svrider Mon 18-Mar-13 18:17:29

Don't wait for parents evening
You need agreement in writing what they are doing to safeguard your child

Euphemia Mon 18-Mar-13 18:17:57

No board of governors in Scotland; your next port of call would be your council education department.

edwardsmum11 Mon 18-Mar-13 18:18:13

I would raise merry hell about both the incident and the teachers responses tbh.

SnotMeReally Mon 18-Mar-13 18:20:53

Although I feel for your poor DS, and you must persist and get listened to, I am also worried about the other boy.
In what sort of world would a 5 yo not know that was a very very wrong thing to do?

Maggie111 Mon 18-Mar-13 18:22:43

YANBU - I'd have a meeting with the school to discuss it asap.

ReluctantBeing Mon 18-Mar-13 18:23:34

I would make a massive fuss. The school is not ensuring that the loos are a safe place to be.

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 18:26:09

I know! That's what my husband said Snot, tbh it never crossed my own mind, but he questioned why the boy would thing that was okay.
I mean, it was a full wee, every item of clothing ds had on was wet except his socks.

Badvoc Mon 18-Mar-13 18:27:34

I would pretty mad over this op.
Take it to the head.
If you get no joy there tell her you will be contacting the b of gov and ofsted with your concerns.

Owllady Mon 18-Mar-13 18:28:47

the little boy may have developmental delays or other issues that the school will not tell you about anyway BUT it doesn't sound like the school are handling things very well and I doubt if this child has issues with toileting he is singling your son out, but regardless of that support needs to be put in place to stop this happening and a meeting seems like a sensible plan

I am sorry about your boy, it sounds distressing for him

Geordieminx Mon 18-Mar-13 18:29:02

Prammymammy.... Is the school in a village beginning with U?

shewhowines Mon 18-Mar-13 18:29:19

Go straight to the head. You've raised it twice with the teacher who has fobbed you off twice. The first time maybe okish but the second time inexcusably.

Do not let it rest.

SundaysGirl Mon 18-Mar-13 18:29:36

I agree with the worry of what five year old would think it is ok to do a full wee on someone else like that? And it fits completely with him pushing your child out of the toilet and saying he was using it.

Poor child..both of them.

The school sound like they are trying to minimise it, I would go in tomorrow if it were me.

RooneyMara Mon 18-Mar-13 18:32:14

Did they not let him have a wash or a shower at school? He must have been soaked and smelling very unpleasant.

They ought to have washed his clothes as well, not just shoved them into a bag.

I think I would be taking this a whole lot further tbh. I'm sorry for you and your poor lad.

toastandmarmiterocks Mon 18-Mar-13 18:33:47

Absolutely make a fuss. And don't leave it til parents evening, if its anything like our school you get shuffled out after 5 minutes. This is clearly something that needs a little more time. I would write (email?) to the head expressing your dissatisfaction with the handling of the situation and how you would like a meeting to discuss. It's not acceptable to completely deny your son's words about the first incident and also the pee-er needs to understand his actions are not acceptable, for his own sake.

Yfronts Mon 18-Mar-13 18:34:31

'no that didn't happen as far as we are aware' is their way of not doing anything. Tell them these are the facts and what are they going to do with the information about a child bullying your child twice. Also ask your son if there have been any other incidents at all. Email - if it's in writing things are logged more formally. Ask for a reply by email.

RooneyMara Mon 18-Mar-13 18:35:44

talking of safeguarding the other lad is displaying some very worrying behaviours here

I think that needs flagged if nothing else

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 18:36:23

It is a brand new school, this is the first ever primary 1 class and the town begins with S not U.
I'm just going to call them in the morning and take my son in, hopefully there will be someone around to talk to.

LynetteScavo Mon 18-Mar-13 18:37:26

No way would I be waiting for parents evening...this needs to be discussed separately, and asap. I would want to know why the toilets don't have basic locks on them, for a start.

However foul being urinated on is, and there is no getting away from that, these are 5 year olds...small children who are still learning, and we don't know anything about this other child, so to say this is "bullying" is a bit dramatic, IMO.

homeaway Mon 18-Mar-13 18:38:34

This is awful op, they should have made sure that he had a shower as it is not on to be covered with somebody's urine for the whole day. I would go to the school and ask to speak to the head as this is not on at all. This is bullying in the extreme. I hope he is ok .

maddening Mon 18-Mar-13 18:38:51

Definitely get this formally dealt with.

Also point out that the incident in February can be considered to have happened - I take it they took one child's version over you ds' s.

I would also suggest that you raise the question of bullying now.

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 18:39:12

The doors do have locks but they are half sized doors I'm sure.

Owllady Mon 18-Mar-13 18:39:53

it's really not about the other child, it's about the schools inability to support its pupils and manage their behaviour (whether they have a degree of sn (which I suspect) or not)

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Mon 18-Mar-13 18:41:02

I think it's awful and I also think the teacher was on the back foot about it which is why she tackled you about the speech and language referal on the SAME day that this awful thing happened.

I would call a meeting and the first thing I would say is that the teacher should not have called about the S and L thing until she had spoken to you properly about this nasty incident.

INeverSaidThat Mon 18-Mar-13 18:41:48

I agree that this is a very veryserious incident and I would be wanting a full explanation as to what happened and what will happen in future. This is the type of thing that could really affect a child if it is not dealt with properly.
There may be things going on with the other boy that they can not tell you about. (You would almost hope that this was the case confused )

I would be nervous to let my child remain in a school where he might. Be exposed to this type of thing unless I was confident that something had been done to prevent a recurrence.

RooneyMara Mon 18-Mar-13 18:42:34

There could be SN
There could be abuse happening somewhere in his life

The school isn't doing enough imo but then they may not make you aware of it if they were, so let's hope.

RooneyMara Mon 18-Mar-13 18:43:26

x posts

OxfordBags Mon 18-Mar-13 18:44:18

This is horrid for your poor boy and it's not acceptable for the teacher to fob you off that way. Also, apart from how upsetting and unpleasant these two incidents must've been for your DS, I'm worried about the other boy. Perhaps he has some sort of additional needs which have not been picked up, or has been witness to, or the victim of, dodgy behaviour at home (not sexual, nec., but poor/weird/aggressive boundaries about toilet stuff, etc.).

The school shouldn't be brushing this under the carpet.

LynetteScavo Mon 18-Mar-13 18:47:29

Owllady, I agree with you.

TheRealFellatio Mon 18-Mar-13 18:48:04

Hmm. the weeing boy is displaying some worrying signs of being controlling/bullying in a sexual way if you ask me. And it sounds as if he is specifically targeting your son. Without wishing to sound alarmist I think you need to make sure your son is chaperoned when he goes to the loo, and the other boy should be watched closely for a while.

jennybeadle Mon 18-Mar-13 18:49:22

Don't try to deal with this at parents evening. This is separate, and you will want to use the time to see how your DSs progress is going, not focussing on how they are (mis)handling the situation.

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 19:02:44

I have had a chat with ds about how this lad acts usually.
He said he has stamped on his foot and told other boys not to be his friend. Can a 5 year old really be like that?
I'm going to push for an appointment tomorrow. I'm so angry though confused Ahhh! I never knew school was so stressful.

paddyclampo Mon 18-Mar-13 19:10:33

This is awful - i'd go into school and kick up a right stink .... The other boy definitely needs watching, this is not normal behaviour :/

Awww, bless you and your poor DS, I would be spitting feathers, agree that there must be something wrong in the other boys life to do something so so horrible, that much wee takes time.

Push for a proper meeting, you need answers about how they are going to handle any future problems.

bangwhizz Mon 18-Mar-13 19:20:35

why isn't your DS locking the door when he goes to the toilet?

FamiliesShareGerms Mon 18-Mar-13 19:21:33

Poor you and your DS

Agree this needs a meeting with the head separately from Parents Evening (which is where you can discuss the proposed referral)

Poppet48 Mon 18-Mar-13 19:23:30

I would be absolutely furious and go straight to the school and tell them exactly what I thought and not leave until they told me what appropriate action they are going to take.

Your poor DS sad

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 19:23:47

As far as I can gather, he is locking the door, but the doors are half size and easily reached over. I will be asking about that tomorrow too though.
Having said that, I don't believe an unlocked door is an excuse for urinating over someone.

bangwhizz Mon 18-Mar-13 19:24:47

TBH I think both boys are displaying some silly behaviour.
If Your DS's story about being pushed off the toilet is true, why did he not pull his pants and trousers up ? It is odd to be hanging round outside the cubicle with pants down?
why are they not all locking the doors.
I think they are playing silly beggars in there.The teacher needs to send them one at a time.

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Mon 18-Mar-13 19:27:45

Bang this is a 5 year old...he may have been more engaged in trying to get back IN than worrying about his pants. He had, after all just been dragged off a toilet!

Euphemia Mon 18-Mar-13 19:30:37

The one at a time rule is tricky with P1 and their likelihood of peeing themselves! I do it with P2 upwards, but P1 is tricky.

Having said that, they only have one term left in P1 so by now they should be capable of not waiting until the absolute last minute before asking to go.

BreasticlesNTesticles Mon 18-Mar-13 19:30:49

Maybe the OP's DS was a tad confused at being shoved off a toilet mid poo!

FannyFifer Mon 18-Mar-13 19:33:45

Wow, did they just change your son, covered head to toe in someone's urine & no wash, WTF!

I would go into the head teacher in the morning, your poor wee boy.

Is he scared of this other boy, did he just stand there & let him wee all over him?

bangwhizz Mon 18-Mar-13 19:34:25

we are all speculating, but the one thing I think everyone agrees with is that you need more explanation about what happened on both occasions.

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 19:35:04

He was doing a poo and went next door not to get poo on his pants. Believe me when I say I asked all those questions last month.
The doors are small doors you can reach over. According to ds, but I will obviously be asking this tomorrow as well.
I am absolutely not someone who blames the other child. I have two kids and I know how easily a silly mishap can escalate between them.
But again. It is the fact that he was totally soaked right through. The head teacher said she doesnt believe there was any malice in it but it was done on purpose and she went in because she heard the noise ds made.
I don't know if he was having a carry on, but the head teacher didn't mention anything like that to me.
If I honestly thought this was a carry on I wouldn't be so upset.

pigletmania Mon 18-Mar-13 19:55:00

I would demand a meeting with the headteacher this is unacceptable. When I was about 8 a bully boy weed all over me, i still remember it now 28 years later sad

cloutiedumpling Mon 18-Mar-13 19:59:39

I would be very upset too if this happened to my DS2 (also in P1). You need to make an appointment to speak to the teacher and the head teacher so that you can find out what happened and what they are going to do about it. If I were you, I'd make it clear when you speak to the school secretary to arrange the meetings that you expect the meetings to last for at least twenty minutes, so that the teachers don't try to shuffle you out of the door after only five. I'd also arrange a series of playdates for your DS with the other boys in the class so that he builds up good friendships with them. I'd probably also speak to some of the other mums in the playground about the other boy. I wouldn't tell them about the toilet incidents but would mention him hurting his hand and ask if their DCs have experienced anything similar. You may find there are a number of parents who are not happy about this boy's behaviour and that your DS was not targeted specifically. Also, if a number of people complain to the teacher and the head they may be more likely to act.

Good luck.

cloutiedumpling Mon 18-Mar-13 20:00:55

Oh, and the school need to get their janitor to put proper locks on the door that can't be opened by a five year old from the outside

ErikNorseman Mon 18-Mar-13 20:02:38

The head teacher said she doesnt believe there was any malice in it

shock

What? Ok, there may not have been malice the way an adult understands it but that was a deliberately naughty act done to cause distress to your son. I can't imagine my DS even thinking of weeing on someone, he would be well aware that it was very naughty and disgusting, and he's not even 5 yet. The head's response is simply not acceptable.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 18-Mar-13 20:05:09

I absolutely disagree with the idea of whipping up any sort of talk about the other boy.

OP what a horrible and frightening thing to haopen to your son. The other boy's behaviour sounds extremely naughty or even disturbed to me, and I would worry about/ for him as well. As others have said, there may be stuff the school cannot tell you about him.

I think you do need to pursue this in order to get reassurance that your son's happiness and safety are being safeguarded.

SneakyNinja Mon 18-Mar-13 20:21:29

What the actual fuck?! I can't quite put my finger on it but this makes me a little bit sick to my stomach. Something is seriously wrong here and the school needs a serious boot up the arse in how to deal with it.

As for " both boys were acting inappropriatly'?! How ridiculous, your DS does not sound like he has done anything wrong, DO NOT allow anyone on here or the school especially convince you otherwise!

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 20:25:15

I wouldn't want to stir up any bother for the lad or his mum with the playground mums. Plus I work 4 out of 5 school days and miss the joys of the school run. Just had a bath and kind of calmed down slightly. My head isn't quite about to explode anymore.
I'm going to speak to the head tomorrow, calmly, and hopefully that will get me somewhere rather than going nuts at them.

Jengnr Mon 18-Mar-13 20:26:42

This is horrible.

If the teacher says the first incident didn't happen then what the fuck does she think did happen? Because obviously something did.

And 'no malice in it?' I wonder how malicious she'd consider it if someone walked in on her having a dump and pissed all over her.

numbum Mon 18-Mar-13 20:33:22

Is there the small possibility that the child in question can't hold his urine in and was desperate/couldn't stop weeing once his pants were down? I'm not saying you should leave the incident at all but just trying to think of reasons why it may have happened

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Mon 18-Mar-13 20:55:32

Yes Numb that is a possibility but it's not the OPs problem. The child in question needs more careful supervision regarding toileting...that should be the OPs concern here...that and making sure that her DS is safe when he goes.

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 20:58:24

I guess that could be a possibility but he passed the urinals and went into the cubicle that was already in use. So I don't think so. They have urinals with dinosaurs to aim at, my ds tells me with delight.

Smartiepants79 Mon 18-Mar-13 21:10:56

Definitely speak to school, clarify how they can be so sure that the previous incident didn't happen.
Make sure you are happy with what they are doing in the future to try and prevent it happening again.
Speak to your son and suggest he takes steps to make sure he is not in the toilets at the same time, I know it is not his problem but at least it would keep him out of it.
I'm not sure i would class this as bullying unless it is in the context of more repetitive and ongoing behaviours.
This kind of nonsense with toilets and small boys is more common than you might think, especially if the child has SN of some kind.

teacherandguideleader Mon 18-Mar-13 21:12:38

There could be more going on than you are aware of.

I have dealt with several incidents where I am sure the victim's parents have thought me incompetent because of my blasé responses to what the perpetrator has done.

In truth, the incidents had sparked child protection concerns on the part of the perpetrator and social services involvement, a couple of which were serious. I was legally not allowed to pass comment on what was going on and could just reassure the victim's parent 'it was being dealt with'.

Incidentally, I would be raising a boy weeing on another child as a CP concern - what has that child witnessed that makes him think it is ok? It could be just boys being boys, but could be much worse.

numbum Mon 18-Mar-13 21:16:13

'Yes Numb that is a possibility but it's not the OPs problem.'...I didn't say it wasn't a problem, was just trying to think of reasons why the child thought it was ok/couldn't help it.

Like teacherandguideleader said, there may be more to it that school wont be allowed to divulge to you OP. If they say they're dealing with it they're aware of a situation that usually means there's more to but that can't say what. They do need to reassure you that they're protecting your DS though

NeoMaxiZoomDweebie Mon 18-Mar-13 21:23:16

Well thinking of reasons won't help the OP will it. I wasn't being rude Numb...just factual.

FullOfWoe Mon 18-Mar-13 21:32:05

Merry, merry, merry hell - starting tomorrow.

Absolutely should not be happening and it sounds like it's up to you to make sure they get this under control. Unless Wee boy has one to one how can they supervise every visit to the toilet? During independent learning (play) they take themselves off to the loo.

numbum Mon 18-Mar-13 21:43:49

I was just being factual too (not rude either honest!). Obviously it should not be happening but I know children who just can't hold their wee in once they reach a toilet and wondered if perhaps the child had gone to the toilet, seen the OP's son there and tried to move him out the way quickly/tried not to wee but couldn't stop so carried on and inadvertently wee'd on the OP's son.

That doesn't make it right in any way and needs sorting though

Floggingmolly Mon 18-Mar-13 22:19:00

The head doesn't believe there was any malice in it? Does she seriously think a 5 year old pissing all over someone else is in any way normal?
It is not just high jinks, and it's certainly not normal.
Op, go in to school immediately, don't even think of leaving it until Thursday.

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 22:28:30

We are having heavy, heavy snow so hopefully the school isn't snowed off.
I keep a picture diary with my ds and the same little boy has been mentioned a couple of times sad I'm just sitting here going round and it's not doing any good. My head is bursting.
My husband is at work so I'm glad I came on here for people to talk to.
Thanks for all your help smile

Cherriesarelovely Mon 18-Mar-13 22:30:11

How horrible for your DS op. Of course you are not BU. I am a very gentle, laid back teacher, who always tries to give children the benefit of the doubt but I would consider this an extremely serious incident. I would have the parents of the other child in like a shot and I do not say that lightly. When the teacher says there was "no malice" in it does s/he mean that they boys were mucking about and laughing? Even if they were I would find this behaviour extremely shocking. I would also be very upset, if I were you, that your child was punished before for the previous incident without listening to his explanation. Hope you get on ok with the school tomorrow. Don't be made to feel as if you are complaining about nothing. This needs to be sorted.

tully67 Mon 18-Mar-13 22:35:13

Your poor son. I would be so mad if that happened to one of my sons. It's beyond disgusting. I'd be with the head teacher tomorrow and want action.

FrameyMcFrame Mon 18-Mar-13 22:35:57

I'm fuming on your behalf and for your DS. Please cause no end of trouble for these teachers who have not taken your DS seriously. sad

giraffesCantDateDucks Mon 18-Mar-13 22:37:40

Poor DS

However sounds like other boy also needs some help/monitoring if he doing this.

Cherriesarelovely Mon 18-Mar-13 22:39:03

I would like to add OP that in 15 years of teaching I have NEVER heard of a child do that before (I've always worked with Key Stage 1). It is very strange behaviour quite apart from being very upsetting for your son and you.

Mumblepot26 Mon 18-Mar-13 22:39:30

Bloody hell, make a big big fuss.

I would write a letter first, basically outlining both incidents, how upset your ds is, and how upset you are. (Create a paper trail) school must deal with complaint in writing by writing to you outlining what measures will be taken to support your son - I would mention the foot stamping and telling other children not to be friends with your ds. It is important to keep everything simple, to the point and ask the school to get back to you with solutions they think will resolve the issues and ensure your ds is not a target of really awful behaviour.

The other child may have additional support needs, but you need to make sure your ds is safe.

What a horrible experience for you all.

mam29 Mon 18-Mar-13 22:48:59

so sorry this soounds awful,

There was issue in dds old school with recption boys in boys toiliet.
The parent couldent resolve the issue not same as yours as felt the school failed to safeguard and called social services who have duty care to investigate,

If you cant resolve with school I would ring social.

do not wiat until parents evening not time or place,.

from what you say bullyings persistant and in other ways not just toiliet.

i would look at school, safeguarding policy and anti bullying should be on website.

piprabbit Mon 18-Mar-13 22:49:54

I think that, as a parent, I would be raising this with the school as possible bullying and asking them how they plan to protect your child.

Now, I quite agree with posters who say that there may be more to it, that the other child may have some sort of SN or be at risk in some way. But you are not in a position to speculate about that, all you can do is raise the issue with school stating the simple facts...that this child seems to be targeting your DS while he is using the toilet.

Perhaps your child wasn't deliberately targeted, in which case it is either a huge coincidence that your DS just happened to be using the toilet on the only two occasions that the other child behaved inappropriately or there have been other incidents involving other children of which you are not aware (but the teachers presumably are). Either way the school needs to do something.

If the head teacher doesn't think there was any malice in it it suggests that there may be more going on with this boy that you realise. But if that is the case then there needs to be better supervision for the children when using the toilet.

Had they tried to rinse the clothes? Could that be why they were so wet (sorry if you have made it clear that wasn't the case - am not well so have skim read on way to bed)

fluffypillow Mon 18-Mar-13 23:01:24

I'm so sorry this happened to your little boy sad

Please make sure you put your complaint and everything you discuss with the School tomorrow IN WRITING, asking for them to reply also in writing stating exactly what they intend to do about this problem. It makes such a difference with things like this. They can never then tell you at a later date that certain things weren't said and agreed.

In my experience Schools will take a problem much more seriously if you write it down, as they may have to explain themselves at a later date, and procedures have to be seen to be followed.

You ask in your op if you are over reacting???? NO NO NO you're not.

Please be strong, and get this sorted for your Son A.S.A.P. I would want a cast iron guarantee (in writing) that this will NEVER happen again whilst my Son was in their 'care'. Schools have a 'Duty of care' to all children, and they did NOT care for your Son today sad

I really hope you have a good outcome tomorrow.

Floggingmolly Mon 18-Mar-13 23:04:06

Malice aforethought or not, (and who would be in a position to say that?), why should any child have to put up with this?

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 23:09:33

I will keep you updated with tomorrows outcome. smile
The more I think about it the worse I feel for my ds. Imagine being wee'd on. Kids are evil.
The little boy in question was at ds birthday party in December, and to be honest he didn't seem to behave any different from any of the other boys at the party. He played well, took part in everything, ate all his lunch and was pleasant throughout the whole thing.
There are only 7 boys in the class so keeping an eye on them all shouldn't be too hard really.
The clothes had not been rinsed. The jumper had an obviously wet mark in the centre, and they smelled so bad. It's amazing the amount of times I've had to change wet beds and wet pants over the years without hesitation but as soon as its another's child's wee it makes you heave lol.

candyandyoga Mon 18-Mar-13 23:20:32

Your poor boy. Raise massive merry hell. Do not let them fob you off. Sounds like this boy is bullying your boy.

foreverondiet Mon 18-Mar-13 23:25:17

Totally vile and unacceptable bullying, make appointment with class teacher to start with, parents night slot not long enough.

Do you think your son needs speech and language therapy?

Andro Mon 18-Mar-13 23:39:19

I hope you get this sorted OP, incidents such as this can easily trigger issues wrt children refusing to use school toilets...not good for their health.

PrammyMammy Mon 18-Mar-13 23:48:06

Foreveronadiet (good name btw)
I asked on the phone why she thought he needed s&l because I had no concern. She said for example he can not say his sisters name (he can) He calls her Gosie or Dosie when her name is Josie.
I just said 'you know what, I'll speak to you on thursday'
My ds and dd have 20 months between them. He couldn't say Josie when she was born. Now she calls him Noah Boah and he calls her Josie Gosie. It's nix names that have stuck since she was born. Cute little sibling nic names. Even I call her Josie Gosie sometimes. I didn't go into that on the phone because I had just collected him and he was upset and I was angry. That was the only example she gave me.

Flojobunny Mon 18-Mar-13 23:56:14

Something is terribly wrong here and I would not be sending my DS anywhere near that school.
If the head teacher went in then your DS must have been screaming ut

Flojobunny Mon 18-Mar-13 23:58:15

No way would I send my DS back to that school.
I'd be straight on to finding him another tomorrow.

PrammyMammy Tue 19-Mar-13 00:21:33

Yeah he was shouting that is why she went in. She told me that on the phone. She caught him red handed.

IDontDoIroning Tue 19-Mar-13 00:28:21

The child can't have any excuse for this such as being desperate for a wee as you've said above there are urinals as well as cubicles.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 19-Mar-13 08:14:53

I know you are upset but kids are NOT evil.

SoupDreggon Tue 19-Mar-13 08:25:55

The boy has been punished, his parents have been told, he will not be going into the toilets unsupervised.

Of course it was horrid for your DS but what more do you think the school needs to be doing?

GingerBlondecat Tue 19-Mar-13 08:32:15

(((((((((((((((soft soft Warm Hugs)))))))))))) to your DS.

Please Don't ever give up till you get to the bottom of this.

My DD was bullied from Early Kindy right through Primary, until we managed to finally Change schools. small twon, no other choice.

the teachers (multi of them) all tried to excuse that DD needed to be more vocal (she was in a speech program) And the Bullies ............ Well, they didn't even agree that they wee bullies, One was the Teachers own child

GooseyLoosey Tue 19-Mar-13 08:37:41

Agree with the others to put any complaint in writing and if no response is forthcomming, consider cc'ing it to the board of governors.

My (sadly extensive) experience of bullying is that if the school has a strong head it will stop and be dealt with. If the school has a head who is confrontation averse and weak, it may never stop.

Soup - if this was an isolated incident I would agree that the school have done what they can. My concern here is that they are refusing to even consider that it is part of a wider pattern of behaviour, even though the OP has already raised a similar incident with them.

bangwhizz Tue 19-Mar-13 09:34:09

Good luck today.Do not let them fob you off!

SoupDreggon Tue 19-Mar-13 10:41:33

But what more should they do now? They have spoken to his parent and will be accompanying him to the toilet. He is five. Obviously he should know better but I honestly don't see what more the school are meant to be doing.

They could well be doing more in conjunction with the parents but this is none of the OPs business.

I assume that the first incident is a case of one child's word against another with no witnesses or evidence which is why it is being publicly discounted.

This is two incidents in 6 months. Hardly sustained bullying or "evil" behaviour.

I just think there is a fair bit of over reacting on this thread and it needs to be seen how the supervision pans out.

It's worth investigating though soup the school so far are refusing to accept there's a link between incident one and two, if it were your child would you be so sure there was no wider problem?

What soupy said.

GooseyLoosey Tue 19-Mar-13 11:11:59

She has also said that this child is telling other children not to play with her son.

If there is a sustained pattern of behaviour, the school need to recognise it as such - maybe have some class discussions about bullying and maybe talk to both boys together about what the problem is.

I know they are only 5 but that does not mean that nothing should be done. If nothing is done at 5, it may carry on at 6, 7 and 8. It may be much more straight forward to deal with things now before it becomes almost habituated and other children join in (which the boy is encouraging them to do).

NuhichNuhaymuh Tue 19-Mar-13 12:22:42

Is the child being accompanied to the toilets and his parents told? I thought was something said by someone here as what should happen, rather than by the OP as what has happened?

Unless I've missed something (it's possible) nothing other than three OPs son being changed has happened.

The OP said a few post in They have contacted the wee boys parents and said he won't be going to the toilet unsupervised from now

Owllady Tue 19-Mar-13 12:56:45

Due to confidentiality reasons, no-one on this thread will know why the 5 year old did this to the other 5 year old but I think we can all use our imaginations and to be honest, bullying is not the first thing that comes to mine. It's not nice for the poor boy who got weed on and the school have obviously not been managing the pupils behaviour properly if this was allowed to happen but hopefully the school can be reassuring and put measures in place to support its pupils and keep them safe as they have a duty of care to do so. Therefore everyone is happy.

Maryz Tue 19-Mar-13 13:14:16

The very fact that the head said "there was no malice involved" makes me think that she is well aware that this child has more issues than simple misbehaviour.

Because deliberately weeing on another child is much, much worse from an assault point of view than pushing or hitting.

It is quite likely, though, that the school won't tell the op about any other issues, but should still be able to reassure her that her son will be safe. And they ought to reopen the earlier incident and make sure they get to the bottom of that rather than just take one child's word over another's.

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved Tue 19-Mar-13 14:01:06

Good luck today OP, I hope they don't fob you off again. It's the way they are minimising it, refusing to discuss or investigate further and being quite unpleasant in the way they are dealing with you... It doesn't matter what other things are going on behind the scenes, all this is not ok!

MildDrPepperAddiction Tue 19-Mar-13 14:09:42

Go to the board of governors and advise that the head teacher has been dismissive of the incidents.

Your poor DS. I hope he is feeling ok now. It sounds like that other boy has some serious issues that need to be addressed ASAP.

I hope you get the resolution you want to this.

Inertia Tue 19-Mar-13 14:13:36

Your poor little boy, no wonder you are upset.

If there is an underlying reason why the other boy is behaving like this, then it could well fall under the child protection remit and the school wouldn't disclose this to you, nor would they discuss any SN the boy might have. That said, the school has a responsibility to safeguard all children, and they clearly need to review procedures here.

I would put in writing to the Head , governors and LA exactly what your concerns are, outlining what your son and school staff have told you and asking for a written response about their safeguaring procedures. If the other boy does have other issues which require support, then the school needs to put those in place.

SoupDreggon Tue 19-Mar-13 14:18:51

the head teacher has been dismissive of the incidents.

Is speaking to the boy's parents and ensuring he is supervised in the toilets being "dismissive"?

NuhichNuhaymuh Tue 19-Mar-13 16:38:21

Ah okay I missed that saintlyjimjams so the school has taken action. That makes it less outrageous than if no action being taken.

Who knows what drives a 5 year old to urinate on another child. You'd dread to think. However the OPs child deserves to go to school without the risk of such upsetting incidents

kerstina Tue 19-Mar-13 17:04:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Crawling Tue 19-Mar-13 17:04:25

While I feel for the op it must have been awful for your ds, im more concerned about the boy it seems rather worrying that he thinks its okay to pee on someone.

PrammyMammy Tue 19-Mar-13 17:13:26

I replied earlier and can't see it now. So I'm not sure if I actually posted it properly.

I seen the school today.
Turns out a lot has been going on tht I'm in aware off.
The wee boy and ds are in the same class but need to be separate at breaks and lunch times because they clash.
There have been a fair few more mishaps over 6m as it turns out and as far as this one is concerned I am happy with how they have dealt with it BUT I feel more could have been done over all, for example, I feel I should have known about this which has been on going since January.
My sons jacket hood was ripped off by the same boy, he has asked other kids not to play with ds, he has encouraged boys to knock ds over, the head teacher had to stop him throwing food at ds in the lunch hall, after that had been separated.
She says the boys were friends they now just clash off each other.

She was very apologetic and said she had never witnessed anything like this before, she wasn't in yesterday but if she was ds would have been sent home.

I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to speak to the boys mum? I have her number saved from ds birthday party. Just so that there is no awkwardness on Thursday at parents evening? Just to see if we can work together in anyway. Or is that silly?
I just think ds and the boy will probably have to deal with each other for the next 11 years at least so it would be best if they could be friends

YouTheCat Tue 19-Mar-13 17:20:08

Don't approach the other parent. I'd reckon they'd get quite defensive about it. Let school deal with it. At least they are aware of what is going on.

MaryZeZJezuzIzntZombiedYet Tue 19-Mar-13 17:21:04

No, don't speak to the boy's mum.

Really don't. Either the boy is doing this on purpose, in which case there isn't much she can do about it from home - it is up to the school to watch him in school and to keep her updated.

Or the boy is really troubled, and having a conversation with you about it won't help - again the school need to help her to get help for him.

Or (and this is a real possibility) she will get all defensive and start accusing your son of starting it, or dismiss it with "boys will be boys" or deny all knowledge.

Make sure that you talk to your son, try to find out (subtly) a little more about what is going on. If you think it is bullying pure and simply, keep on the school's back about it. If you think it's a clash of personalities and they may both be awful to each other (though I think urinating on a boy is extraordinary) then a few words to your son about staying away and not winding him up may be worthwhile. And if this is the case it might be worth trying to get them together away from school and see how they get on.

But be careful - you don't want your son to think you blame him for being a target, or he might stop telling you what is going on.

I would also keep a diary, and have another meeting with the school very soon to see what measures are being taken. If there are only 7 boys in the class, keeping them apart at all times will be difficult.

PrammyMammy Tue 19-Mar-13 17:26:47

I have another meeting on the morning of the 28th. The school sorted all that out today thankfully. They do actually appear to be helping i just wish I'd have known a lot of the things I found out today. The little boy sounds angry (that's just my opinion though). I'm feeling better after the meeting.
I won't speak to his mum then. I was just thinking if it was my ds I would have marched him to the door to apologise ( I think) but I totally agree that could stir things up.

MaryZeZJezuzIzntZombiedYet Tue 19-Mar-13 17:29:31

She may approach you.

I used to try to talk to people if ds (he has Aspgerger's) was fighting with their children. Most people were understanding, some were pretty obnoxious about it.

If she does approach you, don't say "oh it's fine", do say that you and your son were very upset by it, but you are happy to work together to try to sort it out.

shewhowines Tue 19-Mar-13 17:44:50

It's the lack of acknowledgement about the first incident that would infuriate me. It's good that they are dealing with it, but you should have been informed at a much earlier stage than this,especially in view of the first incident.

nannyof3 Tue 19-Mar-13 17:56:47

Ur poor son....

But .... I have major concerns about this other child...

Is it a mainstream school?

PrammyMammy Tue 19-Mar-13 18:12:48

Yes it is a mainstream school.
It's a new school, this is their first year.

dublindee Tue 19-Mar-13 18:53:54

Glad you're getting things sorted prammymammy and that your DS is doing ok since. Little lamb.

At Jamieandthemagictorch: kids CAN be evil. I was VERY badly bullied in primary school and some of the things done to me I would class as evil. Also look at some of the things "kids" do for "fun" ... Jamie Bolger???

Do not be naive. As parents it's our job to protect our children. Prammymammy was voicing VALID concerns.

Owllady Tue 19-Mar-13 18:56:37

I am sure the school have a safeguarding officer in place and a senco

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 19-Mar-13 19:05:44

Well we'll have to agree to differ there dublindee

PrammyMammy Tue 19-Mar-13 19:51:22

Of course kids can be evil.
I was angry last night though. This wee boy is maybe confused/angry/unsettled or something else and I hope he gets the support he needs.
I've spoken to ds and asked him to stay away from him as much as possible, if their personalities are clashing that will help both parties.

Based on what has happened so far Prammy, what I would do is try to keep the channel of communication open between you and the school and stay in touch with the school.
As others have already suggested, don't make contact with the other parents, the reason being is that these incidents took place during school time and the school seems to be dealing with it.

Best of luck in getting it sorted

I would make it very clear to the school that you want to know what is happening, without waiting for an incident like this to spur them into action! They need to be open with you from now on, so you can trust them to look after your ds properly.

Really hope everything settles down for your ds. For the other child to do what he did, I think he needs closer supervision, especially at break time when things might go unseen by adults!

cumfy Tue 19-Mar-13 21:50:47

I don't feel the school are on top of this at all.

If he is acting like this toward DS, there must be other aspects of his behaviour which are setting off flags.

Did you notice anything at the party ?

PrammyMammy Tue 19-Mar-13 21:59:49

The boys were all well behaved at the party.
There were just the 7 of them, my
Niece and my ds we went bowling and then lunch. There was not a single worry throughout the day. The wee boys mum also seemed really normal and nice.

I will make sure I know what's going on by asking ds every day and my husband will remind him every morning.

Flojobunny Tue 19-Mar-13 23:37:07

Sorry but why on earth are you still sending your son to this school?
The head teacher sounds inexperienced. She contradicts herself, yesterday she said she went in to the toilets herself and today she tells you she wasn't even in school else she would have sent your DS home. It's been going on 6 months and this is the first you heard of it?
Sorry, but what are you thinking? Find him a better school where he doesn't get bullied and the teachers are on the ball and inform you of any incidents.

Glup Wed 20-Mar-13 05:39:38

Just seen that at least one other poster has made the point I'm about to.....

I'm a CP officer and this incident would definitely have set off alarm bells. We would certainly have spoken to social services about the other little boy....but would be completely unable to tell you that we had done so.

Two incidents would spark a lot of concerns.

bangwhizz Wed 20-Mar-13 07:45:19

The other interpretation might be that your DS is deliberately refusing to vacate the toilet when he doesn't need it, and knows that this boy does.That would explain the other boy yanking him off and also the boy's (misguided) decision to wee on your DS ratehr than weeing hios own pants.

ilovecolinfirth Wed 20-Mar-13 07:48:49

Poor poor boy. You need to really kick up a fuss. X

Jelly15 Wed 20-Mar-13 08:35:59

Reading between the lines it sounds as though wee boy is bullying your son. In past experience when my DS was attacked by another lad the school said it was six of one half a dozen of the other. then two weeks later the bully put another boy in hospital and was expelled, we are talking about 7 and 8 year olds. All too often schools try to brush bullying under the carpet as it is seen as a black mark the on the school.

DesperatelyChasingBloodyDog Wed 20-Mar-13 09:24:42

bangwhizz surel that is not the only cubicle available.
Wee boy can use the urinals as well.

SneakyNinja Wed 20-Mar-13 09:34:18

I agree with jelly15 There is a very strong possibility that the school are brushing off these incidents as the boys 'clashing' rather than dealing with them with the appropriate magnitude. So far I've heard about your son being weed on, pushed off the toilet ( and punished for it?!) and having his coat ripped. These do not sound like equal arguments. I would raise merry hell in your situation!

OxfordBags Wed 20-Mar-13 09:39:32

Bangwhizz, your post is bizarre! Talk about victim-blaming, sheesh. The OP has already stated, more than once, that there are urinals and several cubicles in the toilets the incidents occured in.

Furthermore, even if there was one cubicle and nothing else, and the OP's son was refusing to vacate it, it would not be a satisfactory explanation of why it happened. It would still be aggressive and worryingly odd that the other boy's solution was to piss on the other child. It just wouldn't be the first thought - or any thought at all - of a well-balanced child. It is not 'misguided', it is extreme, alarming, threatening, humiliating and vaguely sexual.

The head was not on school to deal with this incident
She was the one who caught wee boy

This does not make sense to me

ScreamingFoxtrots Wed 20-Mar-13 09:58:59

Has your son done anything to this other boy? If he hasn't then I wouldn't be at all satisfied with the "they just clash" explanation you've been given. It does sound, from what you've said, that the other boy is bullying your son - and even at 5 he should be learning that not getting on with someone doesn't give you the right to abuse them.

It sounds like the school are saying it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. From what you've said it looks like a dozen of one and none of the other.

OxfordBags Wed 20-Mar-13 10:08:39

Even if her son had picked on the other boy, it doesn't justify him pissing on him!

MrsSpagBol Wed 20-Mar-13 10:19:10

Kerstina - are you actually kidding me?!

"The boy who did it had he had not seen the boy. The toilets were dark and the boy was black "

Are you trying to say that a black child would not be VISIBLE?!

ARE YOU MAD?

OxfordBags Wed 20-Mar-13 10:24:34

I missed that, SpagBol shock WTAF?!

MrsSpagBol Wed 20-Mar-13 10:26:15

can't breathe re Kerstina's INVISIBLE BLACK CHILDREN comment!

Kerstina
I can't believe you actually put that!!

OP So sorry for your DS, Keep monitoring the situation and don't let the school think you have forgotten about it.

RooneyMara Wed 20-Mar-13 10:35:34

'It was the head teacher who called me today at work and dealt with it as from what I can gather it happened at lunch time.
I offered to come and collect him at the time but they said he was fine now. '

and now she says she wasn't in yesterday or would have sent him home?

Can you clarify OP?

'She says the boys were friends they now just clash off each other.' - doesn't sound like it to me, really. What does your son say about this boy? Is he concerned he may be targeting him and picking on him specifically or is he quite happy to go into school?

If it's quite a small school it will be hard for him to avoid the lad.
I think if there are any further incidences i would be looking at another school. It would be quite easy for him to adjust at his age. I have never heard of anything like this before. I would be very concerned.

cjel Wed 20-Mar-13 10:59:20

Glad I'm not the only one who was staggered by 'black children being invisible'.!!! I would ring Child protection services myself to report this as it is worrying behaviour. Its not to get child in trouble but just to make sure hes ok. Child protection build pictures and need all the puzzle pieces.

Vicky2011 Wed 20-Mar-13 11:10:30

I know this isn't being helpful but my son would not be returning to that school. Nothing you have said makes me think the Head appreciates how serious it is. Speak to the County and if at all possible getting him moved to a better established school

It's beyond disgusting. I have never heard of or met a child who even at their worst behaviour standard , had ever or would ever even contemplate urinating on another person. I cannot believe the head has taken it so lightly. I thought that kinda stuff went on in prisons , not primary school. Shocking!!

Or maybe we need to hand out glow sticks so all the black kids r seen hmm

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cloutiedumpling Wed 20-Mar-13 11:31:39

It might not be easy for the OP to send her DS to another school. She mentions that her son gets a school bus. In Scotland this would indicate that she doesn't live in an urban area and so it may be difficult for her to arrange drop offs and pick ups at another school.

I think it can be really difficult to deal with this sort of thing when you are not at the school for drop offs and pick ups. I'm not criticising working parents, I am one. I just don't think that a lot of schools are good at communicating with working parents. After an incident like this though I'd set up regular meetings with the teacher, perhaps every fortnight, so that things could be discussed then. It'd also be a good idea OP to try to strengthen good relationships between your DS and other kids in the school. Would you be able to set up playdates? IME bullies are less likely to target a child if they are part of a larger group. It'd also give you a chance (hopefully) to get to know some of the parents. It can be hard to keep up with what is happening at school when you are a working parent (Again, I'm not criticising working parents. I am one). I've found that a friend who is at the schools most days is invaluable at keeping me up to date with last minute changes to organised activities etc. She would also tell me if she saw any suggestion of bullying in the playground either before or after school. You might also get a feel from other parents of whether or not this boy is targeting other kids. I'm not suggesting starting a witch hunt. You can easily have a quiet word with people without starting a witch hunt. I think teachers can try to fob parents off who are concerned about the safety of their kids when they are dealing with them one at a time. It is harder for them to do so when the parents can say that they are concerned that their child is at risk of harm from child x because they are aware of a number of incidents involving that child at school, not just the incidents involving their own kid. Through this pressure, the other child could get any additional needs that he has met by the school.

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 13:51:51

Hi! Just in from work and catching up
It was the assistant head teacher who went into the toilet on Monday. Both the assistant head and the head teacher were in the meeting I had yesterday.
The head teacher lost her husband a few months ago so the assistant head has taken on her role quite a lot of the time. Actually the head teacher herself joked yesterday that some of the kids think she is a visitor or the pe teacher.

I'm not sure, I can't find the original post where someone says something about seeing black kids in the dark? Ds isn't black, the school uniform is though...

Ds gets the school bus to school yeah BUT he can also get the school bus to another school I suppose. This is something I am looking into and have discussed with my husband already. The next catholic school (where he went to nursery) is probably the same distance away tbh. He went to the new school because it's in our catchment area.
I'm putting in for my driving lesson within the next fortnight anyway so I will be more involved in the school pick up run very soon hopefully!
I start work at 7am so my husband is in charge in the mornings.

mungotracy Wed 20-Mar-13 14:02:35

Its difficult but i think you may be expecting too much.

The school caught the child responsible for the incident you know is true. They called his parents. They changed your child. What else do you actually expect? What could they do?

they cant pillory the other child for an incident of which they have no proof in february? They HAVE punished the child for this incident. A school cannot start disciplining children on incidents of hearsay. the incident is being dealt with and the way that child is being handled is confidential and not your business. If something happens again you might have a point if they haven't addressed it.

The school has to be fair in regards to the alleged february incident. How was the other child in a cubicle with your child in the first instance. Why did leaving the cubicle prevent your child from pulling its pants up?

How would you react if the school started to deal with your son where they had no evidence? they have to react in the same way to all parents....

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 14:09:24

Hey mungo. I answered the questions you asked before. But I appreciate your point. I agree that there wasn't much more they could have done on Monday except send my son home to be bathed.

There were a lot more incidents brought up yesterday at the meeting also x

cloutiedumpling Wed 20-Mar-13 14:15:07

It sounds as though the trouble happens at times when the kids are alone outside of the classroom - the OP has mentioned lunchtimes, playtimes and the toilet area. Could the school allocate a classroom assistant to keep an eye on the P1 boys at playtimes and lunchtimes? The OP has already said that the class teacher will not allow the two boys to go to the toilet at the same time. I am not a teacher so I don't know what could reasonably be done with this age group. I just think it is concerning that the behaviour has been escalating over the last few months but the school didn't see fit to tell the OP until the other kid had urinated all over her DS.

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 14:26:22

The boys are kept separated at lunch time I found out yesterday, I didn't know anything about that.
There are toilet patrols at lunch and break time which will hopefully help but I don't think they can really do much more, I told ds if he sees the lad going to the toilet to stay away, and if the boy enters while he is in to leave as soon as possible. The school have also spoken to both boys about that. Ds has also been told to tell an adult straight away if anything happens in the toilet.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Finola1step Wed 20-Mar-13 14:45:38

Am coming late to this thread but the one thing that doesn't quite add up is this clash of personalities description. Has your son done or said anything to the other boy. If it really is a clash as the school are maintaining, then that would suggest that both boys give as good as they get. But from your descriptions, OP that doesn't sound as though that is the situation.

Are the boys being separated because the other boy is targeting your son? If that is the case, then this is bullying rather than a clash of personalities. The school should then be implementing their anti bullying policy and procedures.

It's a new school. I would be questioning whether their anti bullying procedures are appropriate and robust enough to deal with this situation. I don't wont to worry you OP but, if it is targeted behaviour designed to upset (and yes five year olds are capable of this), this could be a long road. If the school are not prepared to see it for what it is, then they can't begin to deal with it properly. I wish you luck OP.

cumfy Wed 20-Mar-13 14:48:27

I think the wee boy should have to ask each time he uses the loo.
Staff can then check DS is not there.

Flojobunny Wed 20-Mar-13 14:59:09

What Finola said, the picture here is unclear. Is your boy usually giving as good as he gets? Is he usually the instigator? Or is he being bullied?

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 15:11:05

It is so unclear for me also.
As far as I'm aware, and I didn't know the extent of it until yesterday morning in fact I still probably don't know the half of it because questions keep cropping up that I can't even answer like yours there :|

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 15:14:11

I have a letter from the school in ds school bag today
'Ds was involved in a rough play at playtime with another boy. Both boys have been spoken to.'
No other details.

limitedperiodonly Wed 20-Mar-13 15:19:50

I hate that 'personality clash' line. It's used too often by people who don't want to admit they have a case of bullying on their hands.

I suppose you should keep an eye on it for now.

This plan to keep them from using the loo at the same time - how are they going to guarantee that at break times without making both boys stay with a teacher which isn't fair or practical for either of them?

RooneyMara Wed 20-Mar-13 15:43:47

What a rubbish note - what are you supposed to do with that?

I'm really sorry but I agree with the people who said the school sounds inadequate. I wouldn't feel at all comfortable sending my child back.

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 15:49:46

I really don't even know why they didn't phone me. Ds said he was playing with a hoop and the boy (same one) wanted it and pulled hoop from him, he didn't want the hoop that was on the ground, he hit ds, ds hit him with the hoop and the lady (playground helper?) stepped in.
I asked him if he liked the boy and he said 'I like him but sometimes he doesnt like me, sometimes he gets mixed up', that sounds to me like something an adult has said to ds tbh.

cjel Wed 20-Mar-13 16:04:31

Sounds like a new school with absent head aren't really coping with this situation. I would want to go to governors and take it further,DS shouldn't have to go to school and face this. I also agree that 'sometimes he gets mixed up' may have been suggested to him. I thought you were told that they were being kept away from each other? how could they be close enough to be fighting over hoops if they are kept apart. If you can I'd go back tomorrow its not something that you should leave.

kerstina Wed 20-Mar-13 17:01:26

Right I am a bit cross now for being called mad just because I spoke of my experience years and years ago at primary school. The boy who got weed on was black as far as I know it was absolutely NOT a bullying incident. The boy who weed said in his defence that he had not seen the boy in the toilet when he went in. He was very sorry about it. The toilets were dark and dingy are people implying I am racist for recalling this story.
Obviously the OPs case was not an accident by the sounds of it.

Schlock Wed 20-Mar-13 17:18:50

Kertsina, I think the boy who weed in your instance must have either had extreme sight problems or was lying, lol. It's like saying you bart simpson in a room painted yellow.

kerstina Wed 20-Mar-13 17:26:20

Maybe but I have known a fair few horrible dark dingy toilets in my time. I always hate them and imagine there is a spider lurking that I cannot see!

cjel Wed 20-Mar-13 17:33:40

I wasn't thinking you were racist i was more astounded by the incident iykwim?

pleasestoptalking Wed 20-Mar-13 17:40:25

I agree with Snotmereally. This has flagged up potentially serious issues if a child does not realise that urinating on another child is totally unacceptable.

I think you need to take this further. Keep taking it further until you are listened to. This is not acceptable and it is not two children mucking around.

I agree with please

Kids get mixed up over who's Turn it is or who had what first, they don't get mixed up between a child and a toilet. No wonder its escalated to pissing on people if they are going to make excuses for him like that.

There may or may not be something wrong with wee child but for the love of god they need to figure out what it is and support him appropriately and not make excuses!!! Preferably before he does something worse or gets hurt himself!

Oblomov Wed 20-Mar-13 17:57:15

Been following this from the beginning.
1) Op, please NEVER speak to the parent. Let the school deal with it.
2) The school doesn't seem to be REALLY dealing with it. There was alot you weren't told. Head is now dismissive. "ooooh I've never seen anything like this", ohh purrlease. Reeks of inexperience. Our head, would have nipped this in the bud, instantly.
I am most concerned, I have to say.
Wish you luck.

primroseyellow Wed 20-Mar-13 18:24:05

Agree with Oblomov that school are not dealing with this appropriately. It is most definitely not normal behaviour for a 5 year old to wee all over another child or to pull him out of toilet. Even worse that ignorant school staff then punished your DS in the earlier incident. If this were my DC I would be insisting the school treat it more seriously or report it eg to Ofsted as a safeguarding issue that the school has not dealt with satisfactorily.

Yes, i would be upset that they are not dealing with it -

Two days later, the boy is still being aggressive to ops boy.
They framed it as a 'clash' it doesn't sound like it
They said there were incidents yet hadn't informed op
She had to chase them for the meeting to discuss it
Poor kid was punished for having his pants down - first incident.

Do follow it up, they sound incompetent.

issypiggle Wed 20-Mar-13 18:46:10

I'd go in, snow or no snow (unless it's really gonna be a safety hazard, you can't really kick some backside if ya injured), and refuse to leave until someone sorts it, and if they call the police you report the incident to them, sod the fact he's 5, even with SN, if he had walked past the urinals he knew exactly what he was doing. The school are trying to brush it under the carpet if i understand rightly they have only just opened so they will want a good reputation so will try and hide a bullying case (won't look good on them). The first incident should not be ignored and the school has no right to ignore your son. my DD is 3 and she knows that wee and poo go in the toilet/potty.

ConferencePear Wed 20-Mar-13 19:12:31

There's something that makes me very uneasy here.
I sympathise with the head's bereavement but this should not be your problem.
I think I would want social services or an educational psychologist to take a look at it.
What about the parent governor ?

Oblomov Wed 20-Mar-13 19:23:27

I agree with Conference, Op. There si something here, I am not entirely sure what, I can not put my finger on it, but there is something seriously wrong here.
I hope you have the courage and strength to hold firm and not be faffed off.
I speak by someone who had a child, who , it tuned out has Aspergers, but was told by school repeatedly that there was nothing wrong, as if I had munchausen's and was making it all up. And even now, I have zero support.
Which could indeed colour my judgement !! wink

But there is something....has seriously made me very very very uncomfortable.

And i am sure i am not alone in this, right posters ?

God, Op, I feel really sorry for you. Take our strength. And don't be dismissed.

ConferencePear Wed 20-Mar-13 19:29:16

Perhaps I should say that I have some year's experience of pastoral care and there is something wrong here which needs investigating.

Right ob

It is very sinister.

I have heard that SN can have continence issues but this is not a kid soiling himself or struggling with using school toilets. It's a kid deliberately pissing on another child. It's just so creepy and abnormal.

RooneyMara Wed 20-Mar-13 19:32:31

No you're not alone Ob. and I am really sorry to hear that you're not getting any support with ds (is it your lovely ds1?)

It sounds like this school is completely out of its depth

Oblomov Wed 20-Mar-13 19:41:17

Rooney, I too have seen your posts. Maybe I can be of some help to you.
But now is not the time , for my trifles.

But I hope Op gets sorted. We all here, are all unanimous in our feelings of it not be right, on Mn, so I hope Op realsies, that she has our support here.

girliefriend Wed 20-Mar-13 20:10:43

Hello have just read the entire thread and wanted to say the whole thing sounds horrible. It definately from what op has said sounds like bullying to the extreme sad

If that had been my dd I would have gone ballistic, your poor ds.

I would be thinking about moving schools tbh because the thought of wee boy being around your son would stress me out too much.

mantlepiece Wed 20-Mar-13 20:32:49

I think you should move your son to another school if possible.

I have had experience of P1 bullying and I thought children of this age were not capable of this and put up with it for too long. Move him now before he becomes too traumatised, you will spend the next few years trying to deal with this if you don't.

mantlepiece Wed 20-Mar-13 20:40:31

Oh and don't discuss your plans with the school if you decide to move him.

Contact the head of the school you want him to go to, secure a place and just remove him. Don't make any mention of bullying if you can help it, I did not want anything negative on my child's records so said I was removing for family reasons.

My child has had a perfectly straightforward and happy school life after removal from a school where she had 2 years of hell at the hands of a bully.

OxfordBags Wed 20-Mar-13 21:00:18

It is sinister. If the school think it was just an error judgement, then that is v worrying. Urinating on other children is a classic sadistic thing. It's something that is often present in cases of extreme child-on-child attacks (including poor Jamie Bulger). OP, am not trying to say this boy is going to kill your son, don't worry, I am just trying to point out that this factor, along with all the other incidents, most of which sound very sly, as though Wee Boy knows he can pass them off as poorly-judged but innocent hijinx, point to a fairly calculated bullying focus on your son. The stuff Wee Boy is doing also appear to be calculated to be able to pass as one-offs and unconnected.

Obviously, I don't think he's putting this level of sophisticated effort into it, but there is clearly something deeply wrong with the boy that's made him so efficiently abusive at such a young age.

Floggingmolly Wed 20-Mar-13 21:13:41

Jesus, I missed the bit where op's DS was punished after the first incident - wtf?? The poor little sod sad

SneakyNinja Wed 20-Mar-13 21:15:57

I agree, there is no way this was an isolated mistake. Op, please kick up a fuss about the most recent note. The fact that they are still classing these incidents as rough play and that the playground assistants STILL have not been informed about the issues between these two boys just proves to me they are still not grasping the magnitude of it!

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 21:44:25

I can't even get ds up to bed tonight. He has clung to me since dinner.
He is beside me but practically on me the now. Dd has been asleep since the back of 7, which is ds usual bed time.
He has been asleep and when I move him he is crying saying he wants me and wants to stay with me. He said I'm nice and hot so he wants to cuddle me. It's too dark and cold in his room, it's not. The hall light is always on as well as a reading lamp in his room and it is so warm upstairs. He screamed for ages upstairs so he's back down, again,before dd waked up.
I'm trying to stay calm and positive really I am but I'm sitting here and he is wrapped around my hip half asleep and it's taking me everything not to scream.
I'm glad I decided to post, so glad.

Aw your poor ds sad

It's all getting to him now by sound of it. He's put up with so much sad

MaryZeZJezuzIzntZombiedYet Wed 20-Mar-13 21:53:04

I think I would keep him at home tomorrow if you can.

Have a duvet day, and give him a bit of time.

It sounds to me as though the school really aren't dealing with it. A one-off peeing incident is bad enough, but urinating on someone as part of a whole series of incidents is a different matter entirely. It indicates a massive escalation of behaviour and (as someone said above) is a real controlling, dominating action which sounds to me as though it has its roots in a child being very troubled sad. But as sorry as I feel for the troubled child, your son should not be taking the flack for it - and the school treating them as "equal" in today's incident is appalling.

After the urinating incident there should be no doubt who the attacker is, and someone who knows about the history should be watching the boy at break time, not just a dinner lady who probably hasn't been told about any earlier incidents, so will just think it was "rough play".

Pixieonthemoor Wed 20-Mar-13 22:13:48

MaryZ has it right. Duvet day tomorrow and, as others have said, I would seriously consider moving him. The school simply arent joining the dots and taking it seriously enough. I reckon you will have him in your bed with you tonight and that's no bad thing really - snuggling up with mum following such a ghastly time is just what the doctor ordered.

I have read this thread with a sense of mounting horror. You are doing really well, OP and I hope you continue to feel strong and make a fuss. I am sorry for the wee boy - there is some serious disturbance there, but your ds shouldnt have to be on the receiving end.

Take heart OP, we are all thinking of you and hoping and hoping it all comes right in the end. flowers

SneakyNinja Wed 20-Mar-13 22:14:22

Oh bless him! sad Another vote for keeping him home tomorrow if you can. Your child is being bullied and the school seem to be doing sweet FA about it!
I'm sorry but they have not done enough! Every 'action' they have taken has infact been done with both boys further implying that their attitude is more 'they don't get on' rather than your DS being the victim here.

cloutiedumpling Wed 20-Mar-13 22:15:48

OP - you mentioned in a post earlier today that you could send your DS to another school. I'd phone them tomorrow morning to see if they have a place. If your DS knows other children from the school nursery he could settle in easily. It doesn't sound from what happened at school today that the present school have or are going to deal with this other child effectively, even after the urinating incident and the meetings you've had with the head teacher.

If the other school say they don't have any places you could contact the Education Department at your Local Authority, explain what has happened and say that you are looking for a place at that school due to extreme bullying. If that doesn't work I'd contact your MP and MSP for help. It is amazing the effect that a letter from one of them can have.

Good luck.

LeChatRouge Wed 20-Mar-13 22:18:08

I was going to ask you how your son is when dropped at school in the mornings......does he cry or run into the classroom happily?

If he were my boy, I would not be sending him back there. I would remove him and give him a little break, then send him to the new school starting after Easter.

I was bullied at school and can still vividly remember the feelings now. It stays with you.

cloutiedumpling Wed 20-Mar-13 22:26:19

I agree LeChat. My DSis was badly bullied throughout primary school and it stayed with her for a long time. The school acknowledged that bullying was taking place but never did anything effective about it.

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 22:26:33

He has been fine going to school. He gets the bus. Except yesterday he wouldn't leave the street when I was taking him to the bus stop he was screaming at the top of his voice, sobbing that he wanted to go home. The school receptionist heard it because I called them, then I got the meeting with them.
He got on the bus okay this morning too my husband said but he was upset coming home.
He is asleep on me now. Thankfully.

MaryZeZJezuzIzntZombiedYet Wed 20-Mar-13 22:32:06

It's terrible when you discover that your child is having a shit time at school sad. But he is only 5 - missing a few days will do him (and you) the world of good.

With such a small number of boys in the class he won't escape this child. So unless the school can absolutely guarantee that a named person (not just someone) will be watching them at every break, loo trip and any time they leave the classroom, I too think you should be looking at a new school.

maddening Wed 20-Mar-13 22:37:55

They punished him for the first incident and have not addressed or prevented other incidents and it sounds like they were both blamed for these. The urination incident hasn't seen punishment for this boy who then attacks your son and they are both spoken to.

How exactly does the school say it is dealing with it?
What have they done so far and what are the next steps?
Do they consider this bullying and what is their bullying policy?
Has it been implemented?
Why have you not been informed till now and how did they let a 5year old bully escalate to this point?

Yes he may be troubled but I don't think it would be appropriate for you to raise - I assume that by implementing the bullying policy the school would themselves have a duty of care to consider both boys - that would be between them and his parents.

Definitely raise bullying now following your ds' response to this - it sounds like it is escalating.

kerstina Wed 20-Mar-13 22:39:25

Sounds like he has been through so much. As others have said I would not send him back there either. What on earth would possess another child age 5 do this is beyond me. They must have a very troubled background.
I would have no confidence in the school they are not keeping him safe. Phone ofsted even if your son does not go back for the sake of the other children at the school. It sounds like they are not coping with the heads frequent absences and things are getting out of hand.

cloutiedumpling Wed 20-Mar-13 22:49:28

We don't have Ofsted in Scotland. You'd need HMIE. More info on www.HMIE.gov.uk.

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 22:52:24

I have written a letter in reply to the one I got today. Stating that ds is 100% sure this was not rough play, that they were fighting over a toy and there were multiple of the same toy available. Ds has told me he hit the child with the hoop after he was slapped.
The staff admitted to me yesterday that ds doesn't communicate well with them and shuts off so I don't know if he has just kept quiet at the time, even if that is the case I would like to think you can physically tell the difference from rough playing and a fight.
He is in my bed now while I sort the clothes for tomorrow then I'm going to join him. dh finishes work at 2 he will just need to squeeze in somewhere.

MrsSpagBol Wed 20-Mar-13 23:01:18

Kerstina - please shut up.

What do the toilets being dark and dingy have to do with rhe boy being black and thus not seen?

YOU retold your primary school story as a possible explanatiom for what happened to OP's poor son - which means that even as an adult you think it is a reasonsble thing to think that black people cannot be seen in poorly lit toilets!!!

Surely - as an ADULT - you can see that that's utter bollocks - so why repeat it?

I don't want to hijack OP's much more important but you should really learn to think before you type!

I find it incredulous that YOU are cross for stating such a stupid thing as a possible explanation.

MrsSpagBol Wed 20-Mar-13 23:02:06

*much more important thread

kerstina Wed 20-Mar-13 23:18:00

Why do people have to be so nasty . I would not have bought up my experience if I had not believed what the boy said ? Why do people wear bright reflective gear at night . I will shut up now as my previous posts were made before it became clear it was a bullying issue .

MrsSpagBol Wed 20-Mar-13 23:22:17

Kerstina take responsibility for what you said!!! For goodness sake! Do only black people wear visibility gear at night? NO I DIDNT THINK SO!!! So why mention the kid was black ?! WHY???

Take responsibility for what you wrote!

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 23:24:58

I can't find the original post about this. My ds isn't black though and this is a brand new building the toilets are bright, fresh and new.
I don't think the pee'er in question was being fully honest sorry, maybe said that to keep himself out of trouble?

kerstina Wed 20-Mar-13 23:30:44

Ok he could have been any colour ! I just described him as I can still see his face now as he looked so sad that it happened . Apologies pram my mammy for sidetrack .

PrammyMammy Wed 20-Mar-13 23:35:53

Oh no don't apologise I'm so grateful for everyone's input. You have all been great

Hissy Wed 20-Mar-13 23:58:37

My son had a recurring problem, the school tried to keep the boys apart, but failed. It felt like the situation was hopeless, my son was being upset and offended, threatened and there wasn't anything I could do about it.

In the end, after what turned out to be aheated meeting of parents, HT, the DepH and a Governor, eventually a suggestion was made about an initiative called Talkabout.

It's a mentoring group, where the child and my son attended a group with a mix of personalities, some with strong social skills, others will less strong skills to encourage positive modelling, respect for each other, and teaching the children to just get on.

My DS was originally a bit scared, but in a couple of weeks, the pair just got on with things. They still do Talkabout, and it's really helped them both gain self confidence. Ask your school if they have heard of this? It's better to try and get them to just 'be' than try to keep them apart, which is impossible and far too fraught.

This doesn't seem to be sorted if you are getting letters concerning this boy and 'rough play' and your son is upset at home.

I think you should seriously look into changing schools.

SneakyNinja Fri 22-Mar-13 10:10:27

Any update OP?

FrameyMcFrame Fri 22-Mar-13 18:18:53

Hi Op, how is your DS?
Hope all is ok

zirca Fri 22-Mar-13 18:44:24

As a teacher, I'm appalled. If that were to happen to a child of mine, I wouldn't be sending them back to that school.

how are things now op?

Prammy, if it makes you feel any better, I have had the "personality clash" trotted out to me by an unsupportive headteacher in relation to a child who kept swearing at me (telling me to fuck off, just fuck off, just fuck off) over and over again, telling me I had body odour and other delightful things. I was a TEACHER! I was so cross at the implication that it was something to do with a problem with my personality or demeanour that prompted horrible behaviour from this child - I said acidly I didn't have a clashing sort of personality!

I would definitely seriously think about moving schools. You sound a lovely mum x

QueenBee245 Sat 23-Mar-13 19:17:35

I have heard of a similar situation in a school, the child in question has behavioural problems but doesn't receive funding for support and causes a lot of issues in their class, the best thing you can do is keep on and on to the head or governors as most of the time this is the only way they take any notice and something actually gets done.
Hope your DS is ok

SpecialAgentDaenerysTargaryen Thu 28-Mar-13 09:04:57

Any updates Prammy? How is your boy doing?

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