to wonder why it's ok to insult slim people but not overweight people on MN?

(121 Posts)
RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 21:55:41

Just for the record I don't think it's ok to insult anyone over looks/weight/height etc.

But seriously some of the comments I have read about slim people on here are just disgusting.

Slim people look "poorly", "aged" are "boring" etc.

For some reason it seems ok on here to make nasty comments directed at slim people, but if you dare make a comment about overweight people you will get flamed by the flames of hell.

Aibu?

MixedBerries Sun 17-Mar-13 22:05:30

YANBU. I don't get it either.

LadyKinbote Sun 17-Mar-13 22:08:47

Not seen the comments you're referring to but of course it's unacceptable to make fun of someone's size whether they're fat or thin. I think people assume that because the fashion industry makes such a big deal about underweight women it's okay to point out that being underweight isn't necessarily ideal but there's no need to do that in a bitchy way and certainly not as a personal attack.

HollyBerryBush Sun 17-Mar-13 22:10:12

I'm not sure either - everyone on MN announces they are a healthy size 8/10 occasionally as 12 and perpetually dig at Mrs Average who is a size 16+

So much for the sista solidarity.

I haven't seen any comment like that personally, but I think anyone insulting anyone else for the way the look is pitiful and probably compensating for their own shitty self esteem. Unacceptable about fatties or thinnies.

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 22:12:09

YANBU

I generally call people on both.

I do tend to shake my head at the assumption all fat people 'stuff their faces'...and all slim people 'push a lettuce leaf around a plate'.

It's stereotyping, stupid and ignorant.

And don't even start me on posters who generally slag off the looks of (usually) female celebs on this public forum....and then blame men and the media for women feeling under pressure to look good?! confused

It's madness but part of the charm of MN grin

twinklesparkles Sun 17-Mar-13 22:14:21

Yanbu

Samu2 Sun 17-Mar-13 22:14:44

YANBU.

I have been overweight and I have been tiny slim. I get more negative comments now I am slim than I ever did when I was fat.

Shakey1500 Sun 17-Mar-13 22:17:56

Ah yes Worra I'm frequently bemused at the "all women are conditioned" threads grin

I think it's because people assume that if a large person is insulted because of their size, it is unfair and will hurt feelings but it's ok to insult a thin person because all thin people can take it as they skip through corn fields all day clasping flower baskets with nary a care in the world and it will be water off a ducks back because they are so lucky and at peace hmm

Which, of course, is utter bollocks.

crashdoll Sun 17-Mar-13 22:20:27

Actually, I've seen equal amounts of both thin and fat bashing. And also, equal amounts of people saying "that is not on".

CooEeeEldridge Sun 17-Mar-13 22:24:58

YANBU!

yaimee Sun 17-Mar-13 22:27:16

I don't think it is. I'm overweight and would never dream of insulting anyones looks or body.
only people with low self esteem feel the need to comment on other peoples appearance.

Bluelightsandsirens Sun 17-Mar-13 22:30:31

Yanbu

KatyTheCleaningLady Sun 17-Mar-13 22:37:05

If you are a little bit above the ideal weight, nobody remarks on it. If you are slightly below, people make comments.

I mean, if the "ideal" weight for your frame is 125 and you weigh 140, nobody notices. But if you're 110 then people feel free to say bitchy things.

It's been a few years since I attracted that sort of attention, but I didn't like it. I didn't diet or try to be thin. And I didn't like the comments about "real women" having curves, etc.

Darkesteyes Sun 17-Mar-13 22:38:55

I dont think ANYONE should be derided for what they look like for ANY reason.

Spotted this article last week. Really made me RAGE.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/fat-girl-rodeo-and-pull-a-pig-games-the-banter-shag-lads-need-to-grow-up-8531278.html

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 22:41:04

Exactly Katy

When I was underweight as a teenager, people tended to assume I was underweight because I was trying to be/wanted to be...and nothing could have been further from the truth.

And due to their assumptions, they thought nothing of giving me ignorant and rather 'public' advice such as "Why don't you get a decent meal inside ya love?"

Oh yes eating! Now why the fuck didn't I think of that in my quest for weight gain?

OhDearieDearieMe Sun 17-Mar-13 22:42:40

I've not seen any such comments OP but I absolutely think it's not ok to insult anyone using any part of their physical appearance as a basis for insult. Height, weight, hair colour, optical status - anything at all. Not ok.

OhDearieDearieMe Sun 17-Mar-13 22:43:43

Except worra who is clearly a scrawny gobshite!

<<<<legs it>>>>

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 22:46:01

<< Throws lettuce leaf at Dearie Ninja stylee >>

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 22:46:12

And I didn't like the comments about "real women" having curves, etc.

This. Definitely.

I saw a comment saying something along the lines of I look good now I have curve and before I had a boys figure.

It's just rude.

Where are these threads insulting slim people?

I've only ever seen the 'fat bashing' ones. Overweight isn't attractive, obese children not fitting into school uniforms, overweight people at swimming pools etc etc. Can't think of any slim bashing threads i've seen.

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 22:48:43

I lost a stone (in 3 months - so hardly crash dieting) and that made me roughly 11stone. For my height that would put my bmi as normal, but more at the higher end.

I got told by two friends that they were worried about me because I looked ill hmm and then one even said you look better now because you've put it all back on - lovely.

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 22:48:56

Peppa there have been loads to be fair.

Not necessarily 'threads' but comments that don't always get pulled up...but often get agreed with.

Celeb bashing threads are always a good place to start if you want to find comments about 'scrawny' 'pre-pubescent' looking women.

Darkesteyes Sun 17-Mar-13 22:49:53

Exactly Peppa. And i cant imagine the stuff thats written about in the article above happening to a slim person.

Mintyy Sun 17-Mar-13 22:50:26

If insulting comments are made about thin people on Mumsnet then they are immediately jumped on and shouted down, ime.

freddiefrog Sun 17-Mar-13 22:50:31

^ And I didn't like the comments about "real women" having curves, etc.^

Me neither. Men like 'real women' and 'you're far too thin'. Never actually worked what I was far too thin for though. Morris dancing maybe?

I'm pretty sure if I replied with 'well, you're far too fat' I'd have been ripped to pieces.

I remember pulling a friend up on it years ago and she seemed to think that because I was thin I should be able to take it on the chin

Bashing people whatever their weight/height/etc/etc is not on

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 22:50:39

Peppa the comments I'm referring to are when someone starts a 'fat bashing' thread (which I don't condone at all) and a lot of users I have noticed will get very angry about it - but then they throw out insults about thin people.

I don't know why they do, but I can probably hazard a guess.

Darkesteyes Sun 17-Mar-13 22:51:25

I counted at least three fat bashing threads on this board running at the same time straight after New Year.

HollyBerryBush Sun 17-Mar-13 22:52:05

The way I see it, age has a lot to do with it. I'm sure there is some anthropological reason for sticking a few pounds on in middle age , personally I think it's to fill out the wrinkles grin

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 22:52:57

If insulting comments are made about thin people on Mumsnet then they are immediately jumped on and shouted down, ime.

See I don't know ... from what I've witnessed they seem to either got ignored or agreed with.

Mintyy Sun 17-Mar-13 22:53:49

Well, not in my experience.

What a boring conversation! I will leave now.

timidviper Sun 17-Mar-13 22:54:21

Maybe I just notice it because I am fat but there seems to be an awful lot of fat-bashing stuff on MN.

I think it has to be noted that celebs are a lot, lot thinner than the average woman and I wouldn't count celeb-bashing in this for that very reason.

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 22:54:25

I counted at least three fat bashing threads on this board running at the same time straight after New Year.

No I do agree. I have seen a few fat bashing threads BUT ... the person who starts them always gets flamed.

And quite a few of the people that flame them do it by insulting thin people.

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 22:55:26

What a boring conversation! I will leave now

Thanks for that input hmm

What a lovely person you are.

Ilovemydogandmydoglovesme Sun 17-Mar-13 22:55:32

People probably criticise thin people because it justifies them being overweight and makes them feel better.

I'm overweight, by about three stone. Have lost a stone already and am hoping to lose a bit more. Have a good friend who is about a size six, gorgeous, happily married, lovely kids and very wealthy. I have the happy family life just the same as her but all I think about whenever I see her is god you're so slim and I have image envy. envy See, green face and everything.

maddening Sun 17-Mar-13 22:59:14

It's not something I would do and don't agree with.

I think in the instances you refer to it is a defensive response in the heat of the moment - not that it should be condoned and tbh is not productive in a discussion.

I do think that it isn't seen as insulting to some as slim is considered the perfect state both physically, healthwise and even aesthetically so perhaps people don't "see" the insults in these comments? I think it is down to perception

freerangeeggs Sun 17-Mar-13 23:01:11

I completely agree with Shakey1500. I have been both thin and fat and the comments I received when thin were just as hurtful.

I remember once two women standing behind me at Weightwatchers and them wondering out loud why I was there, and saying "I mean look at that, there's nothing on that" and feeling quite tearful about it. They didn't realise I'd spent a year and a half losing five stones.

People just feel like it's okay to comment on your weight when you're thin. I wish people had been so concerned about my weight when I was munching my way to obesity. There's a bit of jealousy there too, for some people, IMO.

MomaP Sun 17-Mar-13 23:01:19

Oooh FFS!! I've never seen so many weight related threads on MN in one night before.

I'm overweight, actually, I'm classed as morbidly obese.
I look like shit, personally.
I struggle to get it under control.
I believe it's my depression related issues.
I hate how ugly I look, more than anyone else does.
I don't let it impact negatively on my DH and DS.
I'm extra cautious over my DS eating habits.
But most of all, I'm happy, because I have a gorgeous family that accept and support me despite the above.

Now shut the fuck up about overweight and underweight people.
Does it really MATTER?

soontobeburns Sun 17-Mar-13 23:01:31

It is the way society sees things. If your fat you are very unhappy and so being insulated could lead you to comfort eat or get depressed. Whereas if you are skinny you are beautiful and envied so therefore must have high self esteem and can take a jab.

Of course this is all an assumption. Im a size 24 and obese yet I am happier in my body than my smaller friends.

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 23:01:41

I think it has to be noted that celebs are a lot, lot thinner than the average woman and I wouldn't count celeb-bashing in this for that very reason.

Really? Why?

So it's ok to rip apart someone's weight because they're a celebrity? confused

They're still humans aren't they?

leaharrison11 Sun 17-Mar-13 23:03:00

I am very slim and trust me iv tried putting in weight it doesnt happen after DS was born my weight fell off me ( i was poorly ) the comments i got was awful people asked if i was starving myself said i looked ill, my mum even told me to put make up and to wear diffrent clothes cus people would think i wasnt coping shockshockshock its horrible, judging people on size is cruel and no one should be insulted , if your a size 2 or 22 its s cruel world

Darkesteyes Sun 17-Mar-13 23:03:23

Im overweight but i would NEVER criticise someone for being slimmer. Its a, bloody nasty. and b. reducing a persons importance to nothing but their looks and there is so much more to a person than what they look like.

When i was a teen a very close friend had anorexia. We were best friends I was the opposite of her and ate too much.
But looks never came into it. We were best mates because we got on well and liked the same things..music,. books, she introduced me to Madonna. I introduced her to Sweet Valley High.

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 23:03:27

I am happier in my body than my smaller friends.

Kind of the comments I'm referring to.

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 23:04:07

Now shut the fuck up about overweight and underweight people.
Does it really MATTER?

Can I just ask who died and made you boss of MN? confused

If we only discussed things that really mattered, this website would be empty...

SashaSashays Sun 17-Mar-13 23:05:14

This doesn't exactly fuck me off but it grates. It's not just on mn, in real life it's perfectly acceptable.

About three weeks ago I was called 'eating disorder'. It's so rude.

I completely get that in the same way being overweight can be unhealthy, being underweight is also an issue. However I eat like a horse, and not even particularly healthily but people feel its ok to say there's something wrong with me, to talk about my weight in front of me as if I'm not there and make all sorts of comparisons which I don't think would happen if I was overweight.

MomaP Sun 17-Mar-13 23:07:50

It's different when this could potentially be insulting 50% of MN.

Who died and made me the boss of MN? Oh grow up!!

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 23:08:32

Im a size 24 and obese yet I am happier in my body than my smaller friends

It makes me wonder, what if I had said -

I'm a size 6 and thin yet I'm happier in my body than my bigger friends

Would that comment go down well? ... I have a feeling that it probably wouldn't.

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 23:09:09

It's different when this could potentially be insulting 50% of MN.

What this exact post? or just in general?

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 23:10:53

A few weeks after I gave birth to DS1, I was in my local pub in the pool room.

An acquaintance who had given birth around a similar time, was sitting there with her friends as I walked by.

She took it upon herself to smile and shout (in front of everyone), "For fuck sake, when are you going to put on a bit of weight you skinny cow?"

Did I shout back, "As soon as you decide to lose some you fat bitch"?

No I didn't...and it took all my strength not to.

Because I knew that in her ignorant mind, she genuinely didn't see anything wrong in what she'd said.

But honestly, I could have decked her.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Sun 17-Mar-13 23:11:38

FreeRangeEggs - I remember once two women standing behind me at Weightwatchers and them wondering out loud why I was there, and saying "I mean look at that, there's nothing on that" and feeling quite tearful about it. They didn't realise I'd spent a year and a half losing five stones

I'm a bit confused? Why didn't you embrace their comments and tell them about the 5 stone you'd lost. I wouldn't have needed to, they'd have been well aware already grin

You did really really well, I hope you are now happy with your weight smile

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 23:12:14

MomaP you're telling people on a public discussion forum to 'shut the fuck up'

And I'm the one who should grow up?

Yes ok then dear...

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Sun 17-Mar-13 23:15:49

Worra - were you a nice weight or definitely underweight when she said that?

freerangeeggs Sun 17-Mar-13 23:21:41

Thanks, MyHeadWasInTheSand smile I was only about 21 at the time and they just made me feel rotten - I think because my Weightwatchers meetings were somewhere that I'd always felt supported. I'd have said something nowadays... in fact I'd probaby be wearing a sign grin

I'm happy again now, but we did have a wobbly period (literally :P ) in between!

MomaP Sun 17-Mar-13 23:21:43

Oh honey, if this discussion was in my front living room, those discussing would also be kindly told to 'shut the fuck up'!!

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 23:23:05

Definitely underweight without any shadow of a doubt.

5ft 3" and around 6st 6lbs.

But even if I had been a 'nice' weight, the fact is she chose to shout something so personal across the pub and didn't think she had done anything wrong.

TheChaoGoesMu Sun 17-Mar-13 23:23:26

Its true. When I was really slim lots of people made negative comments about my weight. Now I'm fat, noone says anything. Well, apart from the bastard in a nightclub who asked me if I was expecting 6 months after having dc1. And then informed me that I should have made the effort to lose the weight by now angry

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 23:24:04

Oh honey, if this discussion was in my front living room, those discussing would also be kindly told to 'shut the fuck up'!!

The discussion being that it's not ok to fat or thin bash .... you would kindly tell someone to shut the fuck for holding that view? Right ...

I think you clearly have weight and anger issues.

WorraLiberty Sun 17-Mar-13 23:25:34

Yes well it isn't in your living room is it 'honey'?

It's a public discussion forum where people are free to discuss topics they find interesting without you telling them to shut the fuck up. It's the whole point of having a discussion forum is it not?

Do you see the difference?

TheChaoGoesMu Sun 17-Mar-13 23:26:58

Yes well it isn't in your living room is it 'honey'?

grin

soontobeburns Sun 17-Mar-13 23:27:19

OP I can see you took my comment out of context. myfriends, yes mine who I know personally, are forever complaining that they have cellulite, their thighs are too big, they have no boobs etc and wont let their OHs see them naked and are ashamed of their body, to the point of grooming for hours a day to "look better"

Whereas I embrace my body and am happy with how I look and am all for walking around naked and feeling sexy.

So yes I am happier in my body than my skinnier friends.

MomaP Sun 17-Mar-13 23:35:00

Yawn.

Anger issues? On a "discussion" forum, where certain grown women will happily bash other people's weight, whether that'd be over/under weight. If that's how it comes across, fine grin

I'm just stooping to some of the "grown adults" level, really

LeslieWink1e Sun 17-Mar-13 23:38:16

Yeh. i disagree that slim people age badly!!

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 23:46:51

I've not bashed anyones weight - neither has anyone else on this thread. confused

RedToothBrush Sun 17-Mar-13 23:51:49

Oh honey, if this discussion was in my front living room, those discussing would also be kindly told to 'shut the fuck up'!!

I love people like you. You are a prime target to wind up from my living room.

Yes, it does matter. This subject is a way of controlling and belittling others.
Its not big or clever. And its definitely not cool.

I am happier in my body than my smaller friends.
Kind of the comments I'm referring to.

Its totally ironic isn't it? If someone on MN posts that they are a small size or are a low/normal weight, they automatically get called as making a 'stealth boast'. Yet comments like that are completely fine.

Frankly I would quite like to punch the morons who come up with the 'stealth boast' remark sometimes, as its ridiculous that you are not able to simply state fact without being somehow being perceived as gloating. The vast majority of the time, its not remotely boasting yet its common for the fucknuts out there to read far too much into it and try and drag people down and give them a good kicking for just being themselves.

I've called people on it quite regularly.

I know plenty of women with issues with their body size - of all shapes and sizes; they are generally like that because some bitch thinks its ok to remark on their body in a negative way.

I would quite like it if every women on MN was able to 'boast' or 'stealth boast' about her body if she bloody well wants to - provided it doesn't put down other women in any way - because this is known as being comfortable and being confident with your own body.

This is a good thing that should be encouraged and not used as a fucking put down.

RidingInCarsWithBoys Sun 17-Mar-13 23:57:48

OP I can see you took my comment out of context

I don't I did.

Why couldn't you just say - I'm a size 24 and happy and confident with myself.

Why not leave it at that?

It's the fact that you felt the need to say that you are happier than your skinner friends. Why is it relevant how happy/unhappy your friends are with their weight?

WorraLiberty Mon 18-Mar-13 00:02:28

RedToothBrush absolutely well said.

Honey wink grin

Darkesteyes Mon 18-Mar-13 00:03:14

ChaugoesMu the sort of bloke that comes up and makes those kind of comments in a nightclub is the same sort of bloke that will go home and abuse his partner.
Because blokes who make those kinds of comments think women are second class citezens who should only be valued for their looks.
People like him are talked about quite frequently on the EveryDaySexism and Hollaback websites.

RidingInCarsWithBoys Mon 18-Mar-13 00:05:15

RedToothBrush absolutely well said

Yes high-five Red smile

soontobeburns Mon 18-Mar-13 00:22:45

Did you not read the start of my orginal post op where I explained about how media and society protrays thin people are happy and confident in their bodies tobe envied and fat people as unhappy and depressed.

Thats why I felt the need to mention it because it was saying that the perception was wrong. And that you can be skinny and unhappy with your body and fat and happy.

Ffs learn to read the whole post before making comments.

garlicbrain Mon 18-Mar-13 00:28:29

Why couldn't you just say - I'm a size 24 and happy and confident with myself.

I'd imagine because obese people are subject to a constant barrage of criticism, from rude young men to 'concerned' acquaintances, to their doctor, the government, newspapers & magazines ... all casually telling them they're bad and wrong because of their body size. It makes obese people feel got at, because they are got-at. Understandable if they feel defensive! When obese women say they're comfortable in their bodies, the vast majority assume they are lying, and tell them so, or assume they don't even know what it's like to feel happy in their bodies. So it's understandable that they'd offer a comparison with thinner friends, to try and head off those criticisms.

It makes me wonder, what if I had said - I'm a size 6 and thin yet I'm happier in my body than my bigger friends

Actually, if you'd said you're a size 6 and underweight, there might be some concern. You may have been too busy taking offence at minor slights to have notice there've been several anorexia threads recently. Unlike obesity, severe underweight causes multiple organ failure and death.

Yes, a seriously underweight person might look ill and be ill. Haven't you thought of that? Would you like everyone to ignore their apparent frailty, or perhaps say how nice they look?

BlatantRedhead Mon 18-Mar-13 00:28:51

I completely get that in the same way being overweight can be unhealthy, being underweight is also an issue. However I eat like a horse, and not even particularly healthily but people feel its ok to say there's something wrong with me, to talk about my weight in front of me as if I'm not there and make all sorts of comparisons which I don't think would happen if I was overweight.

THIS. exactly this. I've struggled with being underweight my whole life and have always hated my body. I've tried every weight-gain product there is. People think its perfectly ok to tell me how skinny I am, how ill I look, ask me if I realise that its not really attractive to be so emaciated?!!

I get sick of people judging me by my weight, I've been called anorexic, bulimic etc. In school an overweight girl held my wrist up and announced to her mates that at least she didn't look like that. No reasonable, decent person would EVER comment on a fat persons weight but being thin seems to make you fair game. It is utterly infuriating.

BlatantRedhead Mon 18-Mar-13 00:29:08

jeez, that turned into a proper rant.. sorry!

RidingInCarsWithBoys Mon 18-Mar-13 00:29:30

Examples of thin-bashing on MN -

They strut around and have marvellous confidence although their faces look a bit haggy.

Pitied slim, willowy girls who couldn't get a dance because their faces were a bit Picasso

underfed kind of skinny look

The slimiest mum at school always looks ill

Obsessed with looking like the skinny film stars and models, who do not look healthy

RidingInCarsWithBoys Mon 18-Mar-13 00:33:22

Yes, a seriously underweight person might look ill and be ill. Haven't you thought of that? Would you like everyone to ignore their apparent frailty, or perhaps say how nice they look?

hmm

Oh course being underweight can make you look and be ill. I'm saying that it's unfair to throw out insults about peoples weight regardless of what size they are.

I was making the point that if I had said I'm a size 6 and thin and much happier than my fat friends I would get flamed.

But the opposite generally doesn't.

garlicbrain Mon 18-Mar-13 00:35:58

OP, you said you were referring to comments made on fat-bashing threads.

You do seem to be taking a remarkably one-sided view.

BlatantRedhead: "I get sick of people judging me by my weight ... no reasonable, decent person would EVER comment on a fat persons weight"

Neither would they comment on a thin person's weight. Fat people get sick of people judging them by their weight, too.

roundtheback Mon 18-Mar-13 00:46:44

I was astonished by the bitchy comments I got from women when I was at my slimmest. Not hurt or upset, just astonished that they seemed to think it was acceptable to say these things.

I have a view about the general trend towards obesity in this country, but I wouldn't dream of making a direct and unpleasant comment to someone who is overweight.

There is definitely a double standard at play on MN around anything to do with weight. I notice it all the time.

I disagree that people are more comfortable insulting skinny people than fat people.
I'm a size 14 ish, 5 foot 4- so chubby, but not worryingly large- and can barely leave the house without my weight being commented on by friends and strangers alike. The worst part is, they act like they're doing me a favour and that I should be grateful that they've pointed out how un attractive they find me angry
I don't remember anyone commenting in any way other than positive when I was underweight.
Yes, I completely, totally, utterly agree that no one should be made to feel embarrassed or badly about their body.
I've seen many more threads defending the right to be skinny than I have posts criticising the same.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 18-Mar-13 00:53:50

There is not a double standard At All. There are LOADS of fat bashing threads, I have not seen a single skinny bashing thread - there's the occasional 'back lash post' but not entire threads.

roundtheback Mon 18-Mar-13 01:05:16

Maybe not entire threads, no. But the attitudes as a whole are very much more weighted in one direction than the other.

garlicbrain Mon 18-Mar-13 01:08:21

... this is so making me want to start a skinny-bashing thread wink

RidingInCarsWithBoys Mon 18-Mar-13 01:08:23

OP, you said you were referring to comments made on fat-bashing threads.

You do seem to be taking a remarkably one-sided view.

Perhaps ... but what I'm trying to say is -

Yes there are fat threads, started quite a lot. Which is unfair and I don't think they should be started.

But those threads the person who starts them gets flamed - big time. Fairly so most of the time.

But the responses from a lot of posters seem to be bashing thin people instead.

It's not ok to do one, and it's not ok to do the other.

YANBU. Unfortunately it isn't just on MN - it is everywhere. People seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to tell someone to their face that they are too thin, when they wouldn't dream of telling someone overweight that they are too fat. I also found people felt they had the right to comment on everything I ate/bought - even complete strangers. People don't seem to realise how rude they are being.

FreakoidOrganisoid Mon 18-Mar-13 03:20:50

I haven't noticed it too much on mn, but a couple of my fb friends are forever posting those e card type things of "real women have curves" "men like real women" "I'd rather be fat and happy than skinny and a bitch"

I ignored for a while. Then took to posting comments along the lines of it being possible to celebrate your own size without insulting others. Now I have hidden them from my newsfeed. They honestly don't see that it's the equivalent of me posting "fat women are all cows"

hamdangle Mon 18-Mar-13 06:49:27

I agree purple penguin. It is rude to comment on a person's weight/dress size/what they eat, full stop but when you are thin people seem to think it's fine to say what they like and you're not allowed to be offended because 'what do you have to be upset about?'

There are two women in my work who constantly comment on my weight and what I eat. If I eat crisps, chocolate or anything fatty it's like I'm invisible but if I eat something healthy like salad, pick at my food or dare to not finish it they always comment. 'Not finishing that again? That's why she's so thin!' I can feel them watching me every time I eat and waiting for something to comment on.

I refused a cake that was being passed around at break because I said I'd had a bacon sandwich for breakfast and was still full and one piped up 'is that you for the day now then?'

The thing that annoys me most is that they are insinuating that I have an eating disorder, a very serious and often deadly mental health issue, and I don't. But I think what if I had? Surely their bitchy comments would make me worse!

maddening Mon 18-Mar-13 07:51:09

They're all wrong - those commenting on slim people come from a point of jealousy. Those commenting on overweight people come from a point of disgust and hatred - tbh the overweight folk receive more vitriol Imo.

Whether jeajealousy or disgust neither is positive.

maddening Mon 18-Mar-13 07:53:46

Just wanted to add that often when the op of a fat thread gets flamed you still get a lot of supporters of the fat folk are lazy and greedy camp

SherbetVodka Mon 18-Mar-13 08:35:10

Maybe I've been reading the wrong threads but I've only ever seen the occasional post being rude about slim women but have seen umpteen entire threads about how awful it is to be fat confused

The derogatory comments about skinny women, rightly, tend to get jumped on straight away but if you read a fat bashing thread, most of the posts will be agreeing with the negative comments about fat people. I think it's far, far more acceptable to make anti-fat comments on mumsnet than it is to make anti-thin ones.

By the way, I've been on the receiving end of bitchy anti-skinny remarks myself (although not for many years). It used to irritate me no end but I always put it down to envy and in a way it actually made me feel slightly smug.

Mooshbag Mon 18-Mar-13 09:17:44

My BMI is within the normal range, I think it's around 22....and that's with doing lots of walking out and about with DD. People always go on about size and what I eat. Surely if I wasn't waiting enough, I would be under weight?

Even if i have the same amount of food on my plate, I will still be told that I'm not eating very much. It drives me crazy. If I say to my friend "I had a pasta salad for lunch" she'll only hear 'salad' ' and mske a size related comment. We were out with a group once and she announced to the table ''look how little Moosh is eating'' .

When we're in an Indian reesturant I prefer to serve my food in lots of small helpings rather than pile it all on my plate...

Anyway, my rant is now over.

hairtearing Mon 18-Mar-13 09:19:23

I've seen some really nasty comments about fat people on here OP,

extremes of weight don't look good on anybody.

I've lost 3.5 stone since last August and my bmi is now 22. Now people keep saying things like don't lost anymore, being thin isn't a quest you know etc etc

All because I don't fill my face daily with scones and biscuits like they do.

Fat or thin bashing just isn't on and nearly everyone is sensitive about their weight and how they look!

twitchycurtains Mon 18-Mar-13 10:03:58

There is far more fat bashing threads than skinny bashing ones. Predjudice and fat bashing is pretty much the norm in every day life, it's seen as perfectly acceptable to make comments about over-weight person ranging from thinly disguised digs to all out disgust.

Being slim and even very slim is still seen as being more socially acceptable than being overweight so find it laughable when it is portrayed as the other way around. All I see on MN are threads started to stealth boast about how a size 10 in the naughties is really a size 20 and so called vanity sizing, which then descend to full on fat bashing, even dead for decades bloody Marilyn gets dug up and put front and centre, she wasn't a size 16 you deluded fatties, here, put on this corset and put down the pies.

garlicbrain Mon 18-Mar-13 12:34:32

" I don't fill my face daily with scones and biscuits like they do."

Ahem ... hmm

Blowin Mon 18-Mar-13 13:32:35

Mooshbag i hear you! I am exactly the same, and no matter how much i scoff in front of friends and family, they are still convinced I eat nothing! hmm

HaveAGoHeroine Mon 18-Mar-13 13:44:38

My BMI is usually somewhere between 21 and 22, so not underweight by a long shot but I still get lots of weight and food related comments.

When I was fat, with a BMI of 30+, I never got a single comment from friends or family, never. Now I'm slimmer apparently they feel free to criticise at will, one even said that I was far too skinny now but that she supposes that's better than being fat like I used to be. She went on to tell me how everyone used to talk about how I was so overweight but no one liked to say anything.

The misconception I hate most is

fat = happy, bubbly, lots of personality
thin = miserable, strict, boring

Because I can say with certainty that I am more bubbly and happy as a slim person than I ever was as a very miserable overweight person.

RedToothBrush Mon 18-Mar-13 13:46:01

All I see on MN are threads started to stealth boast about how a size 10 in the naughties is really a size 20 and so called vanity sizing, which then descend to full on fat bashing, even dead for decades bloody Marilyn gets dug up and put front and centre, she wasn't a size 16 you deluded fatties, here, put on this corset and put down the pies.

Gah! But Marilyn is used as an example to say how women in the media have got thinner and its all modern day culture and how its even more 'anti-fat'. So those threads piss me off, as they are based on a total myth that doesn't help women anymore on either side of the fence.

The truth is, based on her measurements from her dress maker and clothes that she wore a size 4-6UK most of her life and that she was little more than a size 8 at her biggest.

This is important to understand as it gives an indication of how women who are thinner are now cast as 'unnatural' and pandering to modern culture.

It is also important to understand how this myth is being used to distort by perception providing a cultural norm that isn't based on reality.

The very thing that the modern media are being slagged off for, is being employed here, in perhaps an even more sinister way. At least we all know that modern day celebrities are stick thin and everything is airbrushed to fuck. To aspire to Marilyn's figure under the misguided notion that she was a size 16 when she simply wasn't, is exactly the same thing.

It is far better to understand that Marilyn faced the same lack of body confidence and battled against the same attitudes. It is a far more liberating and truthful explanation of the reality and more helpful for changing current attitudes. The reality that DOES include vanity sizing and a changing idea of what is healthy and whats unhealthy. If people want to pretend that changes in body size have not happened since the 1950s or even 1970/80s then fine. But don't have a go at people who do accept this - which is based not just on vanity sizing, but also on researchers - both medically based and market research based - actually measuring the average woman in the UK.

Instead you get this idea of 'stealth boasts' when people say they are a size 10, when they are trying to illustrate what has happened in the last 50 years. Its awful because they are attacked for simply telling the truth.

Now we have a situation where not only is it 'bad' to be fat, but its also 'bad' to be thin. How is that a good thing?

Marilyn was a sex symbol because she had fantastic curves. Despite being small. She hasn't be liposuctioned or airbrushed to death. And after years of all this crap about 'real women having curves' its actually refreshing to use her to point out that yes, real women DO have curves. They can also be a size UK4 and look nice and 'healthy' rather than this automatic assumption of 'ill'. I personally would quite like to reclaim her for smaller women for that reason.

That does not mean that bigger women can't also be damn sexy and wonderfully attractive AND HEALTHY. I would really like women to be represented by someone who actually fits this description in the media, rather than having to use someone who is nothing more than a myth. Because thats of more use and a more positive message.

Rather than this crap attacking others in the process of trying to justify your size and how much you eat.

I am small. I should not eat as much as other people because I do not need to eat as much as other people. This is not a stealth boast. This is a fact. A fact that any doctor will tell you. A fact that any calorie calculator will tell you. People should not be comparing what they need and what they eat with me. Yet they do. ALL THE FUCKING TIME. You'd think this was rocket science to explain as being utter bollocks. Or something hideously taboo.

How does this help me? How does this help them?

Compare like for like. Don't beat up others for simply being different. Celebrate whats great about your body. Cos everyone has got SOMETHING, even if they aren't 'perfect' and really don't like their whole body for whatever reason.

SherbetVodka Mon 18-Mar-13 14:35:52

All I see on MN are threads started to stealth boast about how a size 10 in the naughties is really a size 20 and so called vanity sizing, which then descend to full on fat bashing, even dead for decades bloody Marilyn gets dug up and put front and centre, she wasn't a size 16 you deluded fatties, here, put on this corset and put down the pies.

Perfectly put. And Redtoothbrush's rant in reply to you illustrates your point beautifully grin

RedToothBrush Mon 18-Mar-13 14:47:33

If it illustrates anything, it illustrates how upsetting for everyone it is that size is something you are made to be ashamed of.

BramshawHill Mon 18-Mar-13 16:56:34

Maddening - isn't your post KIND of the point of this thread? Not all comments come from a point of jealousy (in the case of larger people) or disgust (from smaller people) as that suggests the slimmer people are the ones to be envied by everyone else.

In most cases of bullying like this, its a 'you're not like me, I disapprove' point of view, surely?

garlicbrain Tue 19-Mar-13 01:00:01

There's a ton of fatty-bullying on this thread. The weirdest thing is that those thin-skinned skinnies, who make the fat-ist remarks, don't seem to notice how casually they bully others while complaining about being bullied.

Lueji Tue 19-Mar-13 01:18:00

The truth is, based on her measurements from her dress maker and clothes that she wore a size 4-6UK most of her life and that she was little more than a size 8 at her biggest.

Never!
I wear a size 8, or a large 6.
Marilyn would have to be at least a 10.

garlicbrain Tue 19-Mar-13 01:45:55

Marilyn’s reported measurements (both studio and dressmaker claims) from marilynmonroe.com, the official Marilyn website maintained by CMG Worldwide, the representative for Marilyn’s estate. They are: 37-23-36 (Studio’s Claim), 35-22-35 (Dressmaker’s Claim), and height: 5 feet 5 1/2 inches.

Marilyn went through a period of depression and ate compulsively, gaining enough weight to put her at 140 lbs. (The studio claims that Marilyn weighed between 115 and 120 lbs., at a height of 5’5 1/2&#8243;.) A weight of 140 at a height of 5’5 1/2&#8243; would result in a BMI of 22.9, well below the cut-off BMI of 24.9 for ‘overweight.’ At 140 lbs. she was reportedly unhappy, but was still able to go out in public and be revered as a sex goddess.

From this site because it quotes verifiable sources.

35-22-35 would put her at a size 12 bust, size 6 waist and size 8 hips in contemporary standard sizing. She did, however, wear her clothes so tight that they regularly split. It's quite likely she was a top-heavy size 10.

RedToothBrush Tue 19-Mar-13 07:21:26

At a 35 bust, you actually measure the widest part of the bust, not under it.

I'm a 28F. My under bust is 28 and my bust measurement is 35. Marilyn is likely to be a 28 or 30 with a 22inch waist.

I have a nightmare finding clothes that fit. I have to wear things tight on the bust or they just look awful anyway. Its my shoulders that make it look bad as they are small compared to my bust.

A size 10 is too big for me.

EmmaBemma Tue 19-Mar-13 07:53:53

Every discussion on here about sizing and overweight/underweight seems to feature a debate about Marilyn Monroe's exact proportions. Why are we still so obsessed with this woman's body?

RussiansOnTheSpree Tue 19-Mar-13 10:44:17

I've just had a big old row with someone on Facebook who shared one of those 'NORMAL women' pictures. Load of old bollocks so it is. He justified it by saying his wife is large and can't get clothes in the shops to fit. So, apparently that gives him (someone I've known since I was a teen and who I thought was nice) the right to promote the idea that people like me aren't 'normal'. Well, I might be small (not just in girth but height too) but I've had 3 kids and I'm as normal and real as anyone else. (Obviously only in terms of body shape, I don't mind people pointing out that I'm far from normal in other ways wink )

Lizzylou Tue 19-Mar-13 10:54:38

I do tend to shake my head at the assumption all fat people 'stuff their faces'...and all slim people 'push a lettuce leaf around a plate'.

It's stereotyping, stupid and ignorant.

Worra has it spot on.

How many people on this thread have a clue what anyone else on the thread looks like? If my DH or close friend commented on my weight, seeing me often and knowing me, then I'd be bothered.

Why get so agitated about what others ignorantly generalise about different body shapes? They are obviously either trying to stir up shit or are talking rot!

Oh and I am the exact double of Gisele fwiw wink

Haberdashery Tue 19-Mar-13 11:51:07

RedToothbrush, I agree with every single word of what you've written.

And FWIW, Marilyn must have been more or less the same size as I am right now, only with a slimmer waist and a bigger bust (I'm about 35-26-36, bra size 30DD or 28E depending on brand). I am wearing a pair of size 8 trousers and they are a little baggy on the waist but snug around my hips. I am wearing a size 8 top, a size 8 sweater and size 8 pants. None of it is excessively tight anywhere (and I'm not bragging).

garlicbrunch Tue 19-Mar-13 12:13:18

EmmaBemma, I quote Monroe's sizes because it fascinates me to see how people will reframe a simple set of measurements to suit their own agenda [evilgrin]

Red, for example, you're straight in there with an incomprehensible rationalisation that Marilyn's bra size must have been a large-cup 28" meaning her bust was like yours? Or something confused Haberdashery seems similarly interested in the size of her breasts - which is irrelevant to dress size - perhaps also due to a need to tell us about her own. These threads are always about stealth boasting grin

* Disclaimer: I am nothing like Monroe and don't have unfeasibly large breasts.

HandlebarTash Tue 19-Mar-13 12:48:17

I'm 5'1" and a size 8/10. In my early twenties I was a size 6. I used to get a LOT of comments about how I should put some weight on, looked ill, etc.

At university my two overweight housemates cornered my then boyfriend and asked why he was with me, was he afraid of real women? Was he a peado who just liked little girls? He was very upset about that, and so was I when he told me.

My now sister in law, when we were first introduced, her first words to me were "I hate people like you. Skinny people, I mean."

KatyTheCleaningLady Tue 19-Mar-13 13:17:52

I judge someone as "too thin" when they are all teeth and eyes. Like their flesh has shrunk to the point of not quite being able to cover their skull. People who are dying or severely malnourished look this way.

It's really not about their waistline or thighs. A healthy person can have very thin legs and waist. If they don't have big glassy eyes and way too many teeth in their face, they look good, I think.

Haberdashery Tue 19-Mar-13 13:48:30

I don't have unfeasibly large breasts either! And if I did, I don't particularly think it would be a matter for bragging or otherwise, it would just be a fact, that's the whole point of this. I was actually pointing out where she DIFFERED from my body type.

RedToothBrush Tue 19-Mar-13 17:41:31

Unfeasibly large breasts. Grr. See. This is what I've had all my life. Its utterly frustrating (not to mention just rude). Comments like that after repeated use, do get people down and make you utterly self conscious and hate bits of your body. They are not 'unfeasibly large'. They are just what I happen to have. Why can't people accept they are 'normal'?

If my breasts are so 'unfeasibly large' perhaps I should have surgery to remove them. Perhaps Marilyn should have had too.

I have had people 'try and be helpful' (those are the polite ones) saying to go shop in children's shops as I don't fit 'normal' clothes. Which is a little difficult for the fairly obvious reason I have Women who were bigger don't generally like to be laughed at and told to go shop in the 'bigger size' shop. Because there's a fair chance they are 'normal' for them too. And should be being catered for by retailers.

The stuff about my bra size not even being real, was awful for years. Finally people are really starting to recognise my size as being a 'proper' size - and actually not that unusual surprisingly. You really should get over to the better bra threads and see how many people have similarly 'unfeasibly breasts'.

And tbh, Marilyn's bust size was 35". So is mine. Regardless of what my actual cup and back size are, the measurement is the same. So her actual size wouldn't make a huge deal of difference as the measurement all round is still the same. If a size 10 is too big up top for me, it is more than likely it would have been for her. Especially given the fact that the rest of her frame - indicated from her waist size - was small. Its not too much of an assumption from the information we do have, in the way of her clothes, photos and measurements.

If we can get a proper idea of what is perfectly natural and healthy - from one end of the spectrum to the other - then it gets rid of all this myth creating and women wouldn't be so paranoid about it. There are plenty of women out there who are bigger - yet completely and utterly healthy and NORMAL. Yet feel shit because they don't fit this imaginary ideal, that doesn't even exist beyond the realms of fantasy. Marilyn like every other fucker out there, would have a shit time trying to find something to fit on the high street cos she had a dimension or too that didn't fit with clothing sizing.

EVERYONE would be treated with a lot more respect and would be better catered for by retailers if we stop trying to fit the clothes and got the clothes to start fitting us instead! We are individuals not labels. And in 2013, particularly with the high street dying a slow death and modern technology improving to the extent that we have 3D printers appearing, is it such a demand to start challenging this attitude by retailers even more? Part of the reason certain bra sizes aren't more common is not because there isn't a demand - its because women wear the wrong size and put up with the discomfort - and even when its very clear that this is the case, people like M&S don't want to acknowledge it.

This is all about why I think its important to put Marilyn into proper context - precisely because she's rolled out of her grave so much. And is actually no more of a 'better' symbol than the celebrities of today who are routinely castigated for being 'too thin', 'too fat', 'not representative' etc etc. Perhaps her figure didn't reflect the period she lived in either. But equally she certainly wasn't a freak of nature either. She's not that different from what we see in Hollywood in 2013 - apart from one aspect. (From what I know, she is more likely to have ended up in porn than Hollywood today. Apparently 'unfeasibly large' knockers are frowned upon by modern day casting agents).

Truth is the same pressures existed in the 1950s as they do today. The fact we haven't got away from those, is rather miserable. She isn't accepted for what she was - by today's judgmental world - same as any other woman out there. In the words of the lady herself - "It's all make believe, isn't it?".

Until we do start accepting everyone for what they are and have to pretend they are something else, then yeah, we aren't really getting anywhere are we?

RedToothBrush Tue 19-Mar-13 18:20:20

Btw, stick Marilyn's measurements in this (22inches is actually too small for it)

sizes.darkgreener.com/

Then look at the sizes it recommends for all the different stores by clicking on the button on the right.

Virtually every store comes out as recommending a 4 - 8. There are a couple of 10s as second alternatives but not as first choices.

twitchycurtains Tue 19-Mar-13 18:24:48

sherbetvodka grin

"reclaim her for smaller women" seriously?! FFS who cares what size you are, why do you need to reclaim a woman who has been dead for many many years and use her as some sort of role model for slimmer/smaller /whatever women. Can we just let the poor woman rest in peace?.

Why can't some slim women be happy in their own skin without having to put down women that are larger than them?. If you feel attacked by the "fatties" maybe, just maybe its because you are unable to feel good about yourself without putting others down.

I couldn't give a shiny shit what dress size another woman is, but if she starts making catty comments about me to make herself feel good then the gloves are off and she better be prepared for a few choice words of my own. If you can't stand the heat and all that shizz.

RussiansOnTheSpree Tue 19-Mar-13 18:32:12

Twitchy it's the "fatties" who make the catty comments and who are unable to feel good about themselves without putting others down. That's the whole point of this thread, and it's the whole point of those ridiculous and offensive 'normal women' and 'real women' facebook memes. There are no facebook memes claiming larger women aren't normal, or aren't 'real'. That says it all.

RedToothBrush Tue 19-Mar-13 18:47:34

I couldn't give a shiny shit what dress size another woman is, but if she starts making catty comments about me to make herself feel good then the gloves are off and she better be prepared for a few choice words of my own. If you can't stand the heat and all that shizz.

Have you actually tried to do that if you are smaller... oh wait yes the react you get for sticking up for yourself is...

...whats On This Thread bitching about 'stealth boasts' or 'unfeasibly large' breasts!

sigh

You are not 'allowed' to pass comment on the catty remarks... either on the internet or in person.

I'm not even 'allowed' to honestly pass comment on how good women look half the time if they happen to be bigger than me. As its perceived as insincere. Or whatever.

I'm actually not the enemy, and I do have things in common with other women. Surprisingly. Its just other people CHOOSE not to understand or believe this, and are happier to just be part of the problem.

hairtearing Tue 19-Mar-13 20:18:37

I'm quite surprised anyone is honestly trying to say that skinny women have a harder time off fat than vice versa.

StickEmUp Tue 19-Mar-13 20:26:01

Im skinny and i used to get annoys at'real women' comments.

Then i looked down, saw tits, a minge, ive been pregnant and miscarried unfortunately but the sum of all things does suggest i am a female.

RussiansOnTheSpree Tue 19-Mar-13 22:15:51

As people are so very fond of telling us, the majority of women are fat. Until recently, they were certainly oppressed, by, mainly, men. Now they have found their voice. But instead of turning on the women-hating men who have been so vile for so many years, instead the bitterness and vile at that horrible treatment has been turned on the minority of women who aren't fat. Anyone who doesn't see this is either deluding the self or part of the hate mob. I am beyond fed up of being subjected to bullying 'real women' comments from people who are unhappy with their own bodies. People who are fine with their own bodies wouldn't make comments about mine. I certainly never make value judgements about other people's bodies and I'm happy to accept the research which suggests that in many ways the overweight are more healthy than the underweight. It's probably true. I've been pretty unwell recently and damn right I had very few physical internal reserves to see me through it, despite being a generally fit marathon running sort of person. But I'm buggered if I'm going to sit back any more and let people tell me I'm not a real woman just because they hate the way they look. And I'm not going to let them pollute the Internet with their stupid photos and slogans either- not without challenging them, anyway.

hairtearing Wed 20-Mar-13 10:25:30

I can understand that would be annoying russia, but its not even the tip of the iceberg compared to what overweight women/men have thrown at them everday. Its not an equal playing field.

RussiansOnTheSpree Wed 20-Mar-13 11:56:07

Hairtearing no it isn't. Nobody ever denies that overweight women are 'real women'. Nobody would dare - they are now a bullying majority. The fact that you can post that the overweight have a harder time of it insult wise with presumably a straight face says it all, really. I have colleagues who are significantly larger than myself. They often make comments about my size (and I am very much senior to them in the organisation). I just have to either ignore or laugh with them. If I was to make a comment about them I'd be in serious trouble. Of course, I don't want to because that would be rude and mean and silly. Being rude and mean and silly isn't an issue for them, though.

How many fb memes have you been subjected to recently with photos of size 8 or smaller women saying effectively if you don't look like this then you aren't 'normal' and you aren't a 'real' woman? I bet the answer is none.

Russians, maybe there're no memes like that, but it's what we have thrust in our face all day long from every other angle- tv, magazines, movies, adverts for fucking dog food, clothes shops that have removed their plus size range from stores (looking at you, New Look)- everywhere, all the time the message is that fat is disgusting and faulty.
I completely agree that skinny people should DEFINITELY not receive abuse for their size, but can we not deny that the same is done towards larger people on a massive scale?
When strangers on the street make a hilarious joke about my weight, I have to pretend to laugh and hide the fact it's humiliating otherwise not only am I fat, but I have no sense of humour to. I'm not allowed to defend myself because it still ends up with me looking like a sub standard woman.
It would be lovely if we could all just get a grip and leave each other's size/fashion choice/sexual choices alone, but until we do, certain groups are going to get it harder than other's, and I don't think you can count slim women among them.

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