To think there is not really any chikdren in poverty in the uk

(309 Posts)
Domjolly Sat 16-Mar-13 09:36:52

I think last nights comic relief has really brought home to me and my family that there is not really any children in the uk who live in REAL poverty

There is not one child that has to walk 3 hours to school
There is not one child that cant get some form of education
There is not one child who can get medical intervention
I think you would be hard pressed to find familys which children who are homeless or who dont have clean water and sanitation

And i actaully now thing people who say this is insulting to children who do live in real poverty

Domjolly Sat 16-Mar-13 09:38:46

Haveing things like internet and getting more than one gift at christmas is classed as poor here in my view it simply shows how spolit we are

We also have a pretty decent welfare state

ScillyCow Sat 16-Mar-13 09:38:49

Yes I agree.

But there are children in the UK who do not have their own beds.
Who go to school with dirty, holed clothes and without breakfast.
Who are not spoken to kindly between waking and sleeping.

There are many different kinds of poverty.

Nanny0gg Sat 16-Mar-13 09:41:12

Suggest you visit
www.kidsco.org.uk/

I see poverty.

Domjolly Sat 16-Mar-13 09:41:20

Thats not poverty thats negelect people in africa have nothing are poor but still are good parents and i think we confuse the two here

The majorty of children who are dirty its beause there parents are negelcting then we have clean water so why would any child be dirty in the unless the parents were feckless

meditrina Sat 16-Mar-13 09:42:58

There is no absolute poverty in UK; and it's all too easy to forget that we are lucky in being able to take for granted things that others do not have - clean water, good health care, free education etc.

That does not make the effects of inequalities in the UK any easier, though.

But I do think that because we do not see the effects of absolute poverty on a daily basis, it's easy to overlook just how harsh it is.

Domjolly Sat 16-Mar-13 09:43:34

Nanny0gg really

How many children cant go to school
Howmany children cant get a simple BCG vaccine
How many chikdren are living under a bridge with ther whole familes
How many familes live on less than a doller a day
How many chikdren dont have running water


Numbers please

But Scilly, you are describing neglect rather than genuine poverty.

A friend of mine works in an inner city school with a high proportion of families on welfare and such a high proportion turn up for school without having eaten anything, sometimes since the previous days lunch. Some would say that is because they live in poverty but their parents can afford to smoke so as far as I am concerned they are being neglected.

cocolocopoco Sat 16-Mar-13 09:45:17

you have absolute poverty, and then relative poverty wiki

secretofcrickleyhall Sat 16-Mar-13 09:45:22

Someone above is quite right, we don't have poverty in this country, we do have neglect. The former is in some ways simpler to solve: you don't solve neglect by throwing money at the problem, despite what people think.

snotfunny Sat 16-Mar-13 09:45:25

I think I would disagree, actually. I don't think it's a case of: 'people have it worse in other countries, so we're fine'. It's more that there is a basic set of needs that should be met for all children- and I would include clean, comfortable clothes, adequate diet (in nutrients as well as quantity), a bed to sleep in and adequate housing in that.

Just because some parts of the world have children in circumstances far worse doesn't mean that children in this country who don't eat properly and don't have a decent space to live in and sleep in are ok. They aren't. It is still poverty and will still have a detrimental effect on their mental and physical help. It is unacceptable.

Skullnbones Sat 16-Mar-13 09:46:20

Poverty is a funny word. Surely like many words it can change what it means depending on where it is visiting? Poverty in Africa is starkly different to here. But to say poverty doesn't exist here in various forms, yes YABU. I know children who live in filth, don't get fed, parents can't afford heating. A just because they live in a country that CAN stop poverty, it doesn't mean the country we are in DOES stop poverty. I think you need to expand the meaning of the word OP.

Emilythornesbff Sat 16-Mar-13 09:47:08

Well it's relative isn't it.
Yabu

peanutMD Sat 16-Mar-13 09:48:43

Poverty is not a fixed situation, there are varying levels of it and the definition will change depending on where you are in the world because of social expectation.

So yes poverty in Africa is very real in the sense that they have little to no basic provisions in many cases whereas here in the UK poverty can be identified in the child whose parents can't afford to buy a new pair of school school shoes in winter or the child whose family has a slice of toast for dinner because they have run out of food.

missalien Sat 16-Mar-13 09:49:50

Sorry so is parental neglect not as bad as poverty ? Is that what you are saying ? Is this competitive suffering for children?

SirBoobAlot Sat 16-Mar-13 09:49:59

I don't understand why it must be a competition. Children around the world are suffering. It doesn't matter who is suffering 'more' by someone's standards - it matters that it is a consideration at all.

twofingerstoGideon Sat 16-Mar-13 09:50:03

What's your point, Domjolly? Is it that some people have such appalling lives that anyone in a less worse situation should just shut up and be grateful?

I agree with snotfunny.

YABU and, I suspect, a little goading...

Domjolly Sat 16-Mar-13 09:50:21

We have cronic neglect in this country i have worked with chikdren in care the issue with most of the children was not money was the fact there parents couldnot meet there basic needs born yo drug addicts,drunks,criminals thats why they go to school dirty ,unkempt hungery

Beause there are lots of parents who are not these things who are on welfare whos children are clean,fed and have there needs meet its hard but they do it

We to often mistake neglact for poverty in my view its why so many children end up being kept if chacotic familes

TheSecondComing Sat 16-Mar-13 09:51:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Toasttoppers Sat 16-Mar-13 09:52:34

Well I think the dc that live with their Mothers in refuges fleeing from domestic violence can live in poverty. Sometimes they flee with only the clothes on their backs.

Some poverty is caused by the fickleness of parents, some by illness, job loss etc. I work with deprived families, there is real poverty in this country. As you state not the kind where people walk 10 miles for water but poverty nonetheless.

Stand in an unheated room where the tenant cannot even afford a carpet and lost their job through serious illness and admonish them for not being poor enough. Could you do that ?

Domjolly Sat 16-Mar-13 09:52:35

missalien the difference is money alone cant solve parental neglect i am afraid

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Sat 16-Mar-13 09:54:06

I agree with snotfunny and Skullnbones. That there is appalling poverty in Africa does not negate the fact that there is real poverty in the UK too. Go and volunteer at your nearest Foodbank if you want to see evidence of that.

ginslinger Sat 16-Mar-13 09:54:33

no but money can help provide training and support for parents who have quite probably been failed by their own parents which is why they're not coping so well now. It's a question of stopping cycles. And money does make a difference when you haven't got it.

secretofcrickleyhall Sat 16-Mar-13 09:55:21

missalien Actually, I think neglect is worse, I think (know) children can and do suffer going without all sorts of 'needs' if they know they are loved and their parents put them first. If all some families have is a slice of bread and the child gets it while the parents go hungry that is awful, so so sad. But that child at least has the reassurance of knowing he is loved and put first.

Neglect, whether that's through ignorance or making a deliberate choice, is worse because the child not only goes without having his needs met but also knows his parents COULD feed, clothe, house him - but something else is more important.

Neglect isn't solved by throwing money at it. You can't make someone love a child or do right by them sad

PeachActiviaMinge Sat 16-Mar-13 09:55:21

Here read this then tell me they weren't living in poverty when she went without food and his meal was one weetabix with water.

I'm glad you can afford the view that we don't have children living in poverty in this country spend a week in my home and visit some of the family's living on this estate and tell them they're not living in poverty.

Domjolly Sat 16-Mar-13 09:55:36

Toasttoppers not having carpet in my book is not povery not haveing house and living under a bridge is being poor

SamuelWestsMistress Sat 16-Mar-13 09:56:43

I think it's poverty on a different scale. I understand what you're saying though so yanb entirely u.

I think there are many who do slip though the net and who do live in neglected squalor and no one, in the uk, in this day and age, have to live like that.

Tryharder Sat 16-Mar-13 09:57:16

My husband is Gambian and we have family and friend who live in in conditions that would be unacceptable here in the UK e.g. 4 children sharing a room, open sewers, dilapidated accommodation. However, they have healthy food, clean water, education and medical facilities which are not present in other parts of Africa. But there is no spare money at all and people survive day to day and have very possessions. But most people are in that position and people are generally happy, have productive lives and bring up their children well in a society where religion and respect for elders and family is paramount.

But I disagree with you that some kids do not live in poverty here in the UK. I do agree with you that the poverty usually goes hand in hand with parental neglect I.e. benefits money spent on socialising or gadgets rather than good food. But some families are slipping through the net more and more, particularly working poor.

FelicityWasCold Sat 16-Mar-13 09:57:20

I don't think money alone can solve poverty either- otherwise we wouldn't have needed comic relief last night, we'd have solved it all by now...

Competitive suffering is ick.

SirBoobAlot Sat 16-Mar-13 09:57:37

Ah yes it's all down to those bloody feckless parents on benefits, not the fact that the state of the economy is horrendous. No. Of course not.

There will always be child poverty. There will always be child neglect. Just because one country has a huge problem with extreme poverty does not mean that everything here comes down to neglect.

wordfactory Sat 16-Mar-13 09:58:10

I think many DC suffer in the uk due to neglect.

I also think DC suffer due to long term low income. Benefits only provide the bare basics, what happens when your fridge breaks, or your shoes wear out? You borrow of course. Which leads to those benefits not even covering the bare basics.

LovesBeingWokenEveryNight Sat 16-Mar-13 09:58:23

I was going to link to that peach.

Op I guess it depends on your definition of poverty. IMO there are children living in poverty in the uk

CloudsAndTrees Sat 16-Mar-13 09:59:16

YANBU.

I don't believe we have real poverty in this country, and the suffering we do have is not caused by a lack of money or access to basic things in life. It's caused by many things, and I know suffering does exist here, but I think it's insulting to people living in true poverty to say we have that here.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 09:59:34

My very first biscuit for OP Obv,

maddening Sat 16-Mar-13 09:59:34

Is it not relative though depending in which country you look at?

FelicityWasCold Sat 16-Mar-13 10:00:28

Also a huge oversimplification to suggest that all the poor people are in Africa and all the neglectful people are in the UK. Don't you think?

meditrina Sat 16-Mar-13 10:01:05

I think we need a different terminology

The terms absolute and relative poverty refer to two completely different things: one of which exists in UK, one of which doesn't. Absolute poverty is literally a killer. But relative poverty can be too (compare life expectancy between certain UK regionssmilebut then again, even our lowest expectancies are years are years ahead of places with absolute poverty.

The similar terminology means it's too easy to start comparing the two, when actually it is possible to deplore and seek to alleviate both.

meditrina Sat 16-Mar-13 10:02:13

I don't know how that smiley got in there - it's a gremlin, not something ai deliberately typed. Many apologies - I don't find this subject remotely funny.

HollyBerryBush Sat 16-Mar-13 10:02:32

Why are there foodbanks in the UK if people aren't hungry?

Lucyellensmum95 Sat 16-Mar-13 10:03:21

What, is it a fucking competition? Because these terrible things aren't happening in this country it means that all the "poverty" that does occur here should be dismissed?? OP, you are extremely narrow minded.

Guitargirl Sat 16-Mar-13 10:03:23

Those of you who believe there is no child poverty in the UK, please read this
by the Children's Society.

Lucyellensmum95 Sat 16-Mar-13 10:04:23

So what is the OP saying then? Those struggling in this country do so through their own fault??? hmm

YABU. There ARE homeless children in this country. There are families living in unheated, insanitary homes - who cannot afford to save private rent deposits in areas where there isn't any available social housing. They're living in hovels that make them ill and have no way out. What is that if not poverty?

Poverty does exist in this country, but as with most countries with poverty the majority never see it, or even know about it.

You give the example of access to vaccinations - you are assuming people live in walking distance of a GP. Not everyone does. They may not be able to afford to pay for travel to get there, not everywhere has buses and taxi costs are out of reach of many families. In that type of circumstance those people may not have access to vaccinations for financial reasons.

We have elderly people dying because they cannot afford food AND heat. Surely dying through lack of money for necessities is poverty.

Just because you don't see it it doesn't mean it's not there.

Some of the richest countries in the world have mass poverty on the scale seen last night.

ninjasquirrel Sat 16-Mar-13 10:08:38

YABU. Yes, we need to be concerned about children in poverty in Africa, but that doesn't mean there aren't children suffering here because the safety net of the welfare state is being unravelled. To give just one example, how about this baby that died of cot death in a bedroom with chronic damp www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/19/housing-crisis-damp-cot-death

BandersnatchCummerbund Sat 16-Mar-13 10:09:07

Imagining you can separate poverty from neglect is a nonsense.

When parents deliberately leave small children to die because they cannot face trying to feed another mouth, would that be "poverty" or "neglect"?

Replace the word "poverty" with "deprivation" if you must. The end result is the same: unequal societies with deprived adults and hungry, neglected, deprived children.

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 10:09:23

I disagree, what about asylum seekers? Those families who live in other peoples back gardens, with no sanitation and running water? In my borough this has been a big issue recently with the council trying to clamp down on this.

I know homeless families, one woman escaping dv, had no access to bank account didn't know her in number to claim benefits, had to pay for b and b as no I'd and stuff, she had to survive on charity. Another woman Canadian living with husband, no access to public funds or work visa, escaping dv she wasn't entitled to anything, her and kids again had to rely on charity.

Children of illegal immigrants, one woman I know came to uk as a student at 17 then she had kids and a relationship here, she has been trying for years to sort out her status, it has been going back and forth, her kids are born here, but she cannot get housing, she has to rely on subletting others council properties, or sofa surfing with her kids as these let's normally last only a month or two. A lot of the time she doesn't have money for food, all her money goes on taking her kids to school, because she moves so much school is far.

Another woman is a student, here on student visa, her husband is an asylum seeker, they met and got married in uk, have a Child, he has been waiting seven years for decision, just last week he was given right to remain.

I could go on.

crashdoll Sat 16-Mar-13 10:11:04

Some really vile comments on this thread. There is relative poverty in this country and people really are going without. Neglect?? FFS!

BandersnatchCummerbund Sat 16-Mar-13 10:12:19

Oh, and I was talking to one of my friends recently. He is a minister, with a parish inside one of the most "desirable" place in the UK. He told me he sees real poverty inside his parish on a weekly basis - families living in a couple of rooms together sharing a couple of mattresses in cold, damp rooms with not enough to eat. Their children may have access to an education. How much use do you think they will be able to make of it?

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 10:16:26

Here are some FACTS on child poverty in the UK

>Nearly 4 million children are living in poverty in the UK (after housing costs)

>The proportion of children living in poverty grew from 1 in 10 in 1979 to 1 in 3 in 1998. Today, 30 per cent of children in Britain are living in poverty.
>The UK has one of the worst rates of child poverty in the industrialised world

>The majority (59 per cent) of poor children live in a household where at least one adult works.

>40 per cent of poor children live in a household headed by a lone parent. The majority of poor children (57 per cent) live in a household headed by a couple.

>38% of children in poverty are from families with 3 or more children.
Since 1999, when the current Government pledged to end child poverty, 550,000 children have been lifted out of poverty.

Within two years, almost _7.1m of the nation’s 13m_ youngsters will be in homes with incomes judged to be less than the minimum necessary for a decent standard of living, according to a new report

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/majority-of-british-children-will-soon-be-growing-up-in-families-struggling-below-the-breadline-government-warned-8531584.html

The circus on TV is nothing short of corporate sponsored propaganda, the people who benefit from and cause this poverty both here and in the third world are: bankers, wealthy investors, they are backed up and their activities faciliated by: The IMF, The FED and the WTO.

Whilst they are busy cashing in on this you are invited to hand over the cash and look the other way and deny rising child poverty here, why would they pull the wool over your eyes and obscure the facts?

Meeknmild Sat 16-Mar-13 10:21:07

Charity begins at home...the UK. Supporting global projects is fine too, but we do not need it rammed down our throats or via emotional blackmail. Yes, I do give to charities - those of my choosing. I know where my money and my donations of clothes etc end up - do you know where your donations end up????

twofingerstoGideon Sat 16-Mar-13 10:22:26

You know, OP, one of the reasons we don't have absolute poverty in this country is because we have a welfare state. You know, the thing that many people would like to see dismantled because a tiny minority exploit it.

sashh Sat 16-Mar-13 10:22:26

OP

look up section 4 support.

Failed asylum seekers and their children are put on 'section 4 support' which is a plastic card, like a debit card which can only be used in certain shops.

UKBA do have to provide accommodation but there is no choice. The only proviso is that it is 3 miles or less from a shop that takes the 'azure card'.

Because the card can only be used in certain shops there are things that literally cannot be bought. One of these is bus fare.

About £35 is put on the card every week. If more than £5 remains on the card it is deducted from the next payment. £35 is for a single person, if they have a child under one they get an extra £5 a week.

It can be used to buy a phone card, but only for certain calls, to a lawyer or the CAB, but you have to prove you need it.

So, OP, no child in Britain has to walk for three hours to get to school. But a three year old may have to walk a 6 mile round trip for mum to buy milk. You can't exactly leave a three year old alone.

If that three year old needs an operation that is not an emergency, say a tonsillectomy or grommits fitting, they have no entitlement to it.

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/30/asylum-theresa-may-private-fiefdom]

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/06/06/housing-for-asylum-seekers-a-multi-million-pound-privatised-nightmare/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-21747912

Sheshelob Sat 16-Mar-13 10:26:15

I'm not sure I know what a 'chikdren' is.

But I do know that child poverty top trumps is as tasteless as it is stupid.

Undeserving poor blah blah blah. It's great that of all the things you took away with you from Comic Relief, you managed something so mean spirited.

Try the Daily Fail. They'll love you over there.

EmmelineGoulden Sat 16-Mar-13 10:27:58

YABU

I think the idea that children in this country suffer from neglect not poverty is a false attempt to put all the blame on individual parents and ignore the structural problems built into our society that hinder people from building a better life for themselves and their families. There are plenty of children who live in families where the parents struggle to pay all the bills, feed everyone and clothe everyone. Where the stress of working out where the money is going to come from eats into their emotional reserves and the practicalities consume a lot of their time. And it isn't because they're spending all their money on booze, fags, flat screen TVs and goats. People without much money are more likely to live in areas with high crime rates and in substandard housing without adequate facilities, which in turn leads to hgher costs of living.

We have public schools and the NHS, but we don't provide a safe home for everyone or food. So there are plenty of ways for poverty to catch up with people. It's not as stark or wide spread as areas of Africa, but it exists.

Also, kids in this country who, though clothed and fed, don't get a holiday, don't get day trips or get to go to clubs, kids who don't have reasonable access to a computers and other educational resources also suffer from a form of relative poverty. They will fall further and further behind their peers in terms of gaining the skills needed to do well in our society because as society gets richer it requires a higher base level for participation.

Nanny0gg Sat 16-Mar-13 10:28:31

The child doesn't care whether it's neglect or poverty. To them, the end result is the same. They have nothing.

Dawndonna Sat 16-Mar-13 10:30:21

Some would say that is because they live in poverty but their parents can afford to smoke so as far as I am concerned they are being neglected.

You've spoken to all the families, have you Glen ?

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 10:30:27

twofingerstoGideon Like the name

Oh FFS It must be nice living in your world OP. Can I come and live there too, instead of in my cold, damp flat where I have to choose between paying for the electricity or eating properly? hmm

WhatsTheBuzz Sat 16-Mar-13 10:31:25

try
telling that to the parents of babies who have died because they could
not afford to heat their houses. Not being hysterical, this HAS
happened.

twofingerstoGideon Sat 16-Mar-13 10:34:47

Thanks Mini smile

YouTheCat Sat 16-Mar-13 10:42:20

I know quite a few children in this country who live in poverty. No adequate heating. Dirty clothes because parents don't have a washing machine and can only afford to go to the laundrette once a fortnight. Not enough food. No presents at all at Christmas/birthdays. Barely a roof over their heads. And they may well have to walk a few miles to get to shops/school because they can't afford to use the bus.

I'd say that's living in poverty.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 10:42:51

2006 report detailed that the U.S infant mortality rate ranked second highest in the world, among developed countries. Further, statistics regarding this rate showed disturbing patterns. The figure was much higher in the US among minorities.

WHY? at a time when the gap btw the richest and the poorest is growing so that now the richest 10% now own more that 85% of the wealth in the world, when CEOs now earn on average 500x what front line staff earn, when banks are tax payer subsidised and nation states indebted up to the eye balls, when the NHS is increasingly being sold off chunk by chunk to private health firms and the Tories are taking money from lobbyists from US health insurers, surprise surprise we have rising infant mortality rates in the UK too.

TheSecondComing Sat 16-Mar-13 10:49:08

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YouTheCat Sat 16-Mar-13 10:51:57

Yes, I'd noticed that too.

FergusSingsTheBlues Sat 16-Mar-13 10:54:53

Plenty kids living in b n bs through homelessness. I would class this poverty.

And, Yet everybody bitches about the bedroom tax, which is supposed to redistribute a welfare resource to help curtail these situations.

FutTheShuckUp Sat 16-Mar-13 10:58:12

I see kids living in terrible poverty every day at work. Kids who live in squalor, no bed sheets (if they even have a bed), infested with head lice/scabies, stealing food off other kids plates when at nursery/school etc. Their parents can always manage to get them the best trainers and games consoles/phones for christmas but that does not mean they are not living in relative poverty on a daily basis.

NellysKnickers Sat 16-Mar-13 11:01:47

YABU. It is a real problem in the UK. Open your eyes OP.

lrichmondgabber Sat 16-Mar-13 11:17:58

What a shallow viewpoint. No UK kids in poverty.

Its relative. Where I live most parents are rich. I Tower Hamlet s London there is much poverty.

Kids going to school without breakfast. Great debt among many families just to suvervive.

Original poster get out more and read more. Please

lrichmondgabber Sat 16-Mar-13 11:18:59

Is the original poster Iain Duncan Smith?

whimsicalmess Sat 16-Mar-13 11:59:55

There is poverty if you look in the right places,

I'd say in this country its more poverty of the mind though, leading for already poor people spending what little money they have on things like , booze,drugs. or spending more time finding girlfriends/boyfriends etc basically prioritizing anything but their children.

TondelayoSchwarzkopf Sat 16-Mar-13 12:08:37

Yes, of course all poor people in the UK spend their money on widescreen TVs, white lightning and drugs and give their kids (who they don't care about) crisps for breakfast.

They're not like these hard-working immigrants / cheerful Africans who want the best for their children.

These are Self-Evident and Known Facts which require no evidence to back the up.

[/sarcasm]

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 12:10:36

whimisical please read my examples, then tell me about priorities, in fact let me copy and paste then for you.

"I disagree, what about asylum seekers? and Those families who live in other peoples back gardens, with no sanitation and running water? In my borough this has been a big issue recently with the council trying to clamp down on this.

I know homeless families, one woman escaping dv, had no access to bank account didn't know her in number to claim benefits, had to pay for b and b as no I'd and stuff, she had to survive on charity.

Another woman Canadian living with husband, no access to public funds or work visa, escaping dv she wasn't entitled to anything, her and kids again had to rely on charity.

Children of illegal immigrants; one woman I know came to uk as a student at 17 then her mum died in Jamaica, she had no way or where to go back home, no money, she had kids and a relationship here, she has been trying for years to sort out her status, it has been going back and forth, her kids are born here, but she cannot get housing, she has to rely on subletting others council properties, or sofa surfing with her kids as these let's normally last only a month or two. A lot of the time she doesn't have money for food, all her money goes on taking her kids to school, because she moves so much school is far.

Another woman is a student, here on student visa, her husband is an asylum seeker, they met and got married in uk, have a Child, he has been waiting seven years for decision, just last week he was given right to remain.

I could go on."

There are major gaps in the welfare state. The people no one is worried about.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 16-Mar-13 12:12:57

YABU. Actually OP your willful blindness in regards to poverty in the UK makes you very unreasonable.

MonsterScout Sat 16-Mar-13 12:14:52

I work with children and young people and believe me, there ARE children living in poverty in the UK, although perhaps not comparable with elsewhere in the world. Nevertheless, it is unacceptable. I know of families who are squeezed into tiny, dirty, damp and cold temporary accomodation awaiting rehousing. Where the parents are unable to afford quality food orany new clothing or toys for their kids. Children coming to school hungry.

Thank God we have the NHS, though.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Sat 16-Mar-13 12:21:19

Yabu
I don't think I need to add anything more to the above posters

FanFuckingTastic Sat 16-Mar-13 12:22:05

I saw children wearing the same clothes day in day out, with no shoes that fit, and no food in the day until lunchtime, with no jacket for Winter and in the house it was rubbish everywhere and mattresses on the floor, mum smoking drugs and ciggies and going out on nights. I'd say that child lived in poverty.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Sat 16-Mar-13 12:22:23

And I second the pp about the nhs, its amazing and should be cherished

scarlettsmummy2 Sat 16-Mar-13 12:23:17

There are many children living in the uk in very real poverty. I work with them everyday and it breaks my heart. Of course they aren't as badly off as those in third world countries but that doesn't make it acceptable. Do you realise for example that a seventeen year old living with a single parent, may only actually have one set of job seekers allowance to live on between them? No longer entitled to child benefit and the seventeen year old can't claim JSA. It's is an horrendous way to live.

AmberLeaf Sat 16-Mar-13 12:23:45

I do agree with you that the poverty usually goes hand in hand with parental neglect I.e. benefits money spent on socialising or gadgets rather than good food

That old chestnut.

Benefits being spent on luxuries so the children go hungry, benefit amounts do not cover luxuries.

People on benefits only suffer if they are feckless? NO.

Sometimes people on benefits go hungry because money doesn't get paid or because a fridge breaks down, lots of parents go without food so their children can eat, lots of people sit in cold homes because they have to choose between money on the gas card and feeding their children.

At one time when on benefits, I regularly had to choose between food or heat, obviously I chose food and we just had to suffer the cold. On the day my benefits were paid I would pay bills, buy gas and electric and buy food shopping, there would be pence left at the end of that day. The gas wouldn't last the week if I had the heating on.

Yes compared to some children in the third world we had it easy, that didn't mean my children weren't living in poverty though, it is relative.

What the fuck is happening on Mumsnet lately? it is like the daily mail comments section and Netmums rolled into one.

whimsicalmess Sat 16-Mar-13 12:24:55

At what point have I made personal remarks about peoples living arrangements , asylum seekers , african parents are better wtf? where rape and domestic violence is rife? yes of course hmm

What I'm talking about is more neglect, which people who commit neglect often hide behind poverty,I refer to poverty of the mind because these people probably know no better and were more than likely raised the same.

Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 12:26:23

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 12:27:23

The rub show you define poverty
Yes Children in uk have sanitation,clean water,free health care.things we take for granted
If poverty is measured as relative it will always shift the parameters

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 12:28:11

No poverty? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-21456790

"When London councils began investigating this issue, it was common to see squalid shacks in back gardens, typically inhabited by numerous illegal immigrants.

A survey carried out by Brent Council turned up hundreds of outhouses built in this way.

Milestone were charging young father Andreas Luiz £1,000 a month to house his wife and child in a small, windowless room with a fake garage door." www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21574772

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/may/09/london-landlords-desperate-tenants

" there's no hot water, so when she wants to wash she needs to boil two huge vats of water on the stove.

Maria sleeps on a mattress on the floor, the furniture is broken, and the flat is heated only by a feeble electric radiator....

the man with mental health problems who lives in the main house and who regularly defecates in the garden, which is already scattered with detritus left by former tenants – old kettles and beer cans.

"We don't know where her toilet effluent is going to," Christine Lyons, the council's planning enforcement team leader, says, peering anxiously to the side of the building....

"We found a walk-in freezer where people have been living, paying rent to live there," Wales says. "The record was one house with 38 people, of whom 16 were children...

his medium-sized ground floor bedroom: mattresses are laid out on every bit of the floor not taken up by the double bed..... The mattress on the bed looks dirty and above the bedroom door there is a large rectangle of sticky yellow tape covered with the corpses of some of the cockroaches who share the room....A young mother is sitting with her three-month-old baby in a cluttered room at the back of the house.... there's another family with two children, a two-year-old and a five-year-old,"

Tell me those children are not in poverty???

and this one "A Lithuanian builder who is working on a nearby site in the Olympic village answers the door at a three-storey red brick terrace house, and is happy to show the planning officials through to the back yard, where a couple are living with their two-year-old in a compact red-brick shed."

"There are only two toilets, which she says, "is not at all enough". She is looking forward to returning to Hyderabad, where the living conditions will be much better."

stormforce10 Sat 16-Mar-13 12:28:18

So OP

The woman on a minimum wage job who is living in one room in a B&B with her 2 children is not living in poverty? She was put there as emergency accommodation by the council. She has virtually no help with the rent. She has to pay to eat out twice a day. She has to choose between getting her children to school at the other side of the city or eating. She can't afford to save for a deposit anywhere else because her entire income is eaten up trying to survive. Yes she does exist. DP met her last week through work.

The 7 children living with their parents/ guardians 2 bed house I met late last year are not living in poverty? Four of those children were taken by their aunt and uncle because their mother could not look after them any longer for health reasons. There are children sleeping on floors, sofas, and even a couple sharing a single bed. There is one wage coming into that house and its minimum wage. Tax credits have been messed up and have not been paid for a while. They are not neglected they are fed basic food, helped with their homework and taken to school, well dressed and loved but every day is a struggle for the basics

The little girl who my teacher friend has to provide breakfast, toothpaste, toothbrush and other basic toiletries as well as a uniform from lost property is not living in poverty?

Wake up OP its all around us. You may have been lucky enough to avoid its symptoms but not everyone is that lucky. I hope you remain that lucky

AmberLeaf Sat 16-Mar-13 12:29:07

Neglect and poverty are not the same thing and don't always go hand in hand.

When I was seriously on my uppers My children were always clean and had properly made beds with clean sheets and duvets etc.

We were poor not dirty.

The only game console they had was one given to us second hand by a relative.

morethanpotatoprints Sat 16-Mar-13 12:31:36

Amberleaf

It is so sad that there are so many people on here ready to so openly judge others.
I totally agree with your point about Daily Mail comments, can't say I've been on Netmums.

There are many people living in the UK in poverty. Perhaps it makes the rich feel better if they pretend these people don't exist. Perhaps its guilt from those who voted the Cons in, or those spouting how happy they are about Welfare cuts.
There is a huge growth in Food Banks, I don't think any of the much needed food donated will be enough.

Viviennemary Sat 16-Mar-13 12:32:27

I think we need a definition of poverty before that question can be answered properly. I agree that neglect is worse than poverty.

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 12:33:14

whimiscal exactly, you didnt talk about people who are living in poverty for real reasons and the society is letting down, instead you jumped on the bandwagon of the feckless underserving poor

smudging for you it may be a handfull, wherever you live, how ever I live in the second poorest borough in the UK and it is definitely more then a handful. That is one of the issues, the divide.

scottish all children in UK do not have those things. Sanitation, clean water and health care. That is the point.

lottieandmia Sat 16-Mar-13 12:37:30

There definitely are children living in poverty in the UK. Watch this BBC documentary

Poor Kids

HoHoHoNoYouDont Sat 16-Mar-13 12:37:33

Watching CR last night had me considering this very topic. Although some children living here in the UK may live in dire circumstances, there is still hope. Our children have access to education and medical care. At some point when they're older they may use their education to improve their lives. It's a spec of light at the end of a very dark tunnel. Unfortunately some of the children I saw last night won't even get that. They might not even live beyond school age. Their light at the end of the tunnel is the aid they receive from us which is why it's important we continue to donate.

nethunsreject Sat 16-Mar-13 12:39:55

Yabu and very narrow minded op.

Skillbo Sat 16-Mar-13 12:40:25

100,000 children a year run away and live on the streets. 100% of these children end up with substance abuse problems and a huge majority are abused. A significant number are not reported missing by their parents so no-one knows they are even missing. One in four is aged under 11! All of these stats are supported by the Railway Children annual report.

These are children in extreme poverty, an unrecognized and predominantly ignored section of our society who deserve so much more.

To say YABU hardly touches it - read about Mumsnet's link up with the Railway Children if you still think that it is only in other countries that children sleep under bridges or don't eat for days sad

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 12:41:35

what are we going to do? sponsor a whole nation? real change can not be caused by a few million pounds. if we really want to change the situation of a people, it comes down to changes in politics, the IMF, and so on. When you have a country where people are starving and the IMF is taking all their staple food as payment (say flour in Pakistan) and selling it back at grossly inflated prices, that is the real problem and cause of why people can not afford food.

Viviennemary Sat 16-Mar-13 12:44:07

I never feel very moved by this kind of stuff written in the UK. Yes the benefits office has a lot to answer for when the amount paid is short. But the £670 rent seems incredibly high. People should be housed in cheaper accommodation. But that is never a very popular idea. It puzzles me that some people seem to manage fairly well on benefit and others are down to lilving on one weetabix with water. Something isn't right somewhere or we are not being told the whole story.

Skillbo Sat 16-Mar-13 12:45:27

http://www.railwaychildren.org.uk/campaigns/help-make-the-invisible,-visible

Have a read!

Skillbo Sat 16-Mar-13 12:46:31

http://www.railwaychildren.org.uk/campaigns/help-make-the-invisible,-visible/

sorry - can't do links on my phone but please, have a read!

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 12:48:50

vivienne what about those not entitled to benefits in the first place!!

where is this cheaper accommodation you are talking of?

MrsKeithRichards Sat 16-Mar-13 12:50:33

You are not only being unreasonable, you, and those agreeing with you, are being stupid, ignorant and completely uninformed and oblivious.

Let them eat cake eh?

RooneyMara Sat 16-Mar-13 12:53:10

You can be poor without being the poorest, like you can be ill without being about to die

There are the resources you mention in the UK but that doesn't mean everyone has access to them especially children

often their parents prevent them having access to healthcare or education

you're being dim

Viviennemary Sat 16-Mar-13 12:53:13

The issue of private landlord subsidies has made this problem much much worse. And that is the fault of the Labour government who started these huge housing benefit subsidies. I am sure there are properties to rent a lot cheaper than £670. Who are these people not entitled to benefits. I thought everybody was who qualified.

RooneyMara Sat 16-Mar-13 12:54:44

'Our children have access to education and medical care.'

No, they don't - not all of them. What about parents who spend everything on drugs, who don't get their kids treated when they are ill, who don't feed them properly?

Children cannot access these things without decent parents

MrsKeithRichards Sat 16-Mar-13 12:55:07

Oh yes, cheaper accommodation, jolly idea that.

People are trapped in high rental properties, the prices of which that have been artificially inflated over the years by a mix of greedy landlords and compliant government policy. Local council sets a maximum that say a single mum with 2 kids can claim in housing benefit. Surprise surprise landlords charge that maximum.

But don't worry, the cap will sort that out. The people living in these properties paying over the odds will have their benefit cut and will have to make up the shortfall out of some other source.

Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 12:56:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 16-Mar-13 12:58:51

Vivienne, family support makes a huge difference, as does health and whether you live in a rural or urban area. A broken cooker or fridge can mean the difference between eating a meal or surviving on one Weetabix a day.

gordyslovesheep Sat 16-Mar-13 12:59:39

poverty isn't just financial ...we have real poverty here.

FanFuckingTastic Sat 16-Mar-13 12:59:56

I guess we would have been properly starving if it hadn't been for a food bank keeping us fed when the benefits system stopped my income support for six weeks due to an admin error.

And we will be homeless come May, with nowhere to go if the council has it's way. A household with a disabled parent and a disabled child, possibly we'll go into a hostel, which will be a complete nightmare. That'll feel like poverty.

I've had a few brushes with the bad end of things and I fight all the time to keep us shipshape and still afloat.

gordyslovesheep Sat 16-Mar-13 13:01:10
Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 13:02:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:05:07

Rooney your post is wrong.children who dont attend education the school, will report to sw.there will be a mdt meeting Inc parents.

Parents on drugs, likely known to sw
Schools will report signs of neglect,poor nutrition or neglect.they have statutory duty to do so.schools have safeguarding policies and safeguarding officers

If a paren't fails to maintain good health for child thats safeguarding issue too

Your portrayal of Dickensian children isn't wholly accurate

Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 13:05:41

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

russiandolly Sat 16-Mar-13 13:05:55

www.woodstreetmission.org.uk

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 13:07:29

smudging you have never seen children begging on london streets? the Eastern European/Bosnian/Romanian women who are forced to beg and take their children with them?

news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9618000/9618038.stm

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0169lg6

it may be more prevalant in other countries, that doesnt mean that it doesnt happen, and there are no children living in poverty here.

There are children trafficked here.

AmberLeaf Sat 16-Mar-13 13:07:38

It is so sad that there are so many people on here ready to so openly judge others
I totally agree with your point about Daily Mail comments, can't say I've been on Netmums

I suppose Netmums isn't all bad, but this kind of attitude seems more prevalent there and goes unchallenged a lot of the time.

vivienne
I never feel very moved by this kind of stuff written in the UK

Thats a common attitude. easier to feel pity for things that are very far removed from your own circumstances, you are only a few bad breaks away from being in a bad situation in this country, that is scary and for some it is easier to pretend it doesn't exist.

What cheaper accomodation?

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 13:08:14

its good we agree on something smudging!

The ignorance on this thread is appalling.sad Although I'm not surprised that the "benefits claimants with drink and drugs and huge tvs" idiocy has come up again. Yes, there are some people who live like that. Fuck knows how, because we can barely make ends meet and we don't drink or smoke. We have a small tv.

Vivienne where I live we are entitled to a maximum of £650 pcm for rent. Every month I look for a better (ie not damp and mildewy) property that we could rent for that amount. There are none. I have been looking for nearly 2 years. We are not permitted to rent somewhere that costs more and make up the shortfall ourselves(not that we could afford to anyway).

AmberLeaf Sat 16-Mar-13 13:09:24

Just because it is worse in other countries doesn't mean we should deem dire situations in the UK as ok or acceptable.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:10:31

From Gordys link

So is there any poverty here?

Peter Townsend, the sociologist who did so much to advance our understanding of poverty and its relationship to wider society, and was also one of CPAG’s founders, certainly thought so. In 1979 Townsend defined poverty as follows:

"Individuals, families and groups in the population can be said to be in poverty when they lack resources to obtain the type of diet, participate in the activities and have the living conditions and amenities which are customary, or at least widely encouraged and approved, in the societies in which they belong.

Townsend’s definition also highlights that poverty is about a lack of resources. Poor people lack capital (both income and wealth). But they can also be resource-poor in other ways: they may lack human capital (such as education or good health), or social capital (such as positive and trustful communities). __Yet it is money that, to a large extent, determines whether people are able to compensate for other shortfalls in their lives. That is why a lack of adequate financial resources is the decisive characteristic of poverty__"

Poverty pushes people to the margins of society, that is why quite often real poverty is hidden, that is why it has such detrimental long term impacts on the life chances of children. Poverty in childhood leads to lower attainment, poverty in adulthood, lower life expectancy etc,... it also means that children are bullied, sidelined and discriminated against by their peers, have no access to activities and resources that would widen their own experiences and often leads to a situation of no hope, no ambition and low expectation.

Drug use, goats, tvs, fags, poor diet, poor educational achievement, neglect, hopelessness.......it starts with poverty of financial resources.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:10:51

Some families and children live in poverty and inadequate accommodation
It impact on health,socioeconomic and education and it's a relentless grind
But we do have free to access education,health and local authority.not perfect but still a support network

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:14:48

Smudging

We can not end poverty unless we demand political change. This current government need to stop playing race to the bottom with corporate tax rates and front up to the power of global capital.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:15:54

Scottish

At moment we have welfare, education and health but if you have been following the news.......these are under relentless pressure to privatise.

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 13:19:22

scottish no not all kids have access to health care www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/13/erbs-palsy-baby-sanika-ahmed-denied-treatment-_n_2866288.html

and sometimes it is not the healthcare or lack of it which is causing health issues, but the accommodation and lack of sanitation!

I have a friend living in temporary accommodation, she has had letters from gps etc saying that the damp in her property is causing her dds breathing difficulties, it is dangerous etc. It is one bed property but they cant sleep in one room as damp is there, also spreads to furniture carpet etc put in that room.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:20:31

I dispute the fatalistic socialsciencetastic explanation that poverty inevitably breeds drugs,despair,dysfunction. No not for all.a minority
This isnt case for vast majority people with low incomes who actually bring their kids up with good values
Neglect is associated with poverty,but neglect exist across all social strata

It's this casual association poverty and dysfunction,as an inevitable borne by working classes

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 13:21:00

what government is going to stand up to global capitalism? any party or nation who wants to do so are labelled extremists, or terrorists, or a threat, or else dismissed as liberal nutters.

Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 13:22:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JaquelineHyde Sat 16-Mar-13 13:24:25

'Charity begins at home...the UK. Supporting global projects is fine too, but we do not need it rammed down our throats or via emotional blackmail. Yes, I do give to charities - those of my choosing. I know where my money and my donations of clothes etc end up - do you know where your donations end up????'

Do fuck off meeknmild there's a dear!

OP you are ridiculous I lived for over 8 months without any money (apart from CB for 1 child when I have 3!??) due to a DWP monumental fuck up and delay.

We were very lucky not to be made homeless and lived on charity and handouts.

We had nothing, not a thing (in fact some amazing friends from on MN did a secret grocery shop for me and had it delivered and I will never forget that as we had nothing in the cupboards to eat and I really had no idea how I was going to feed the children)

My DD grew out of her shoes whilst this was happening and we then had to keep her housebound until a pair of shoes in her size came in at the local charity shop. She couldn't leave the house for 2 weeks!!

We had no access to anything but yes we had a roof over our heads (just) and running water. Does this mean my children weren't living in poverty???

Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 13:25:40

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 13:27:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:28:25

Yep that is about right nailak

poverty is on the increase here and it isn't being resolved in the third world....that is the problem and arguing about who's poverty and what poverty gets us no where near to dealing with the causation.

Smudging if you have the time I would really recommend this as it explains the causes of "global poverty" www.youtube.com/watch?v=_viNHVzadeM

skratta Sat 16-Mar-13 13:28:26

Just YABU. Pretty much nothing else to say.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:30:12

Nailak,I'm on that thread All access to welfare has eligibility criteria the child can access emergency care,not routine care
she not eligible to be uk citizen, her parents are illegal
I agree with the nhs applying eligibility protocol

Child isn't entitled to non emergency care
Uk border agency
If you were born in the UK to parents who are not British citizens and are not legally settled here

Even if you were born in the United Kingdom, you will not be a British citizen if neither of your parents was a British citizen or legally settled here at the time of your birth. This means you are not a British citizen if, at the time of your birth, your parents were in the country temporarily, had stayed on without permission, or had entered the country illegally and had not been given permission to stay here indefinitely

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:31:28

JaquelineHyde

I hope things have improved for you.

Smudging the poverty in Africa may be different. However I care more about my children than children elsewhere in the world - and my children are my priority.

I gave the obligatory donation to Comic Relief yesterday, and when I can I donate to the local children's hospice. But my money goes on utilities and healthy food for the children, and clothing when they need it. They are adequately fed and clothed - DH and I are not.

When I have more money and am able to donate regularly to charity then I shall do what I can for other children living in poverty. But right now, harsh as it sounds, I care more about feeding my own children than other people's.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:33:24

>scottishmummy

and yet we as ordinary working people often without huge financial resources are invited to pay for health care (and water, education, food etc,) in the third world. Can you not see a dichotomy here?

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:36:02

Govt does give to overseas aid yes,areyiu suggesting this be reduced or terminated?

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:38:49

Nailak,if the Bangladeshi community in uk,or wealthy benefactor want to fundraise for child they could pay for her operation - the nhs would undertake op on that basis

FanFuckingTastic Sat 16-Mar-13 13:39:19

Yes smudge I've been homeless as a child before and I remember it not being as bad as I thought. Both of my children will be given up to their father if I have to go into inappropriate accommodation though, as it's a risk to my DD's health and safety, and to my own too. Without adaptions, I struggle to do day to day things. Without alarms to alert me to her whereabouts, my DD will get herself into trouble. It's not the streets, but it's highly uncomfortable and unsuitable. So I will make sure I am the only one to experience it, and just hope it doesn't mean I lose my children in the process.

JaquelineHyde Sat 16-Mar-13 13:39:32

Mini things couldn't be much better, money is tight but isn't it for everyone, I am studying for my MA in social work and due to have DC4 in 5 weeks grin

That's the difference in this country...oppertunity.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:41:01

I would suggest we look at the huge disparities of wealth first and start taxing corporations and wealthy tax dodgers, we might then have enough money to give oversees aid.

Why are bankers and corporations with the backing of the IMF and the WTO impoverishing us and the third world, indebting nation states and then asking those of us who work for falling wages to bail out the third world through both our taxes and our wages?

FunnysInLaJardin Sat 16-Mar-13 13:41:43

we had this the other day. The phrase and definition is of relative poverty

Viviennemary Sat 16-Mar-13 13:41:45

I think there should be more accountability for overseas aid. Making sure it goes to the right people.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:44:30

JaquelineHyde
well done you, good luck with the social work smile

Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 13:45:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

quoteunquote Sat 16-Mar-13 13:46:37

OP,

You are very naive,

we have lots of poverty in this country, here in the south west rural poverty is a serious problem, it now at a critical level, I expect there will be reactions soon,

I run a company every single day we have phone calls begging for work, every single day when I visit the merchants, there are men waiting outside who ask for work, we are now in a very

we have no industry in our area, farming is on it's knees, we have a massive shortage of housing, due to the second home issue, we have nearly only seasonal jobs,

we have so many families living in caravans on the side of the road, on illegal sites, some with one tap between 40 families, some with none,

in my children's village school, children who live in caravans or similar make up about 15% to 25% of the classes, many of the families are local, lots have jobs, but there is no affordable housing.

I invite you to visit Marley Head site, South Brent, just off the A38 in devon, so you can see for yourself and I can take you to plenty more.

you see what you want to see, you choose not to see.

my neighbour's daughter comes to her house every day with her husband and children to eat dinner and have showers, they both work, but live in a cabin without electricity and water.

I know so many families and individuals that live in poverty, but then I don't wear blinkers.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:47:56

When you qualify as sw Jacqueline you will make daily difficult decisions and have to apply policies and protocols about eligibility and funding

Good luck with your studies and career when you qualify

RooneyMara Sat 16-Mar-13 13:48:15

Scottishmummy, I'm not disputing that there are safeguards in place but that's not the same as there being no proper poverty in these regards

Safeguards are not infallible

However hard people try to build an impenetrable safety net, some will slip through.

ReallyTired Sat 16-Mar-13 13:48:56

I think relative povety and social isolation is a big issue in the UK. If your income is substantially lower than your neighbours then you can be socially left out. (Ie. you can't afford broadband, you have far less choice of schools because of affording the bus fare.)

There is a major issue with companies advertising jobs via the internet. It has become very hard for people with limited qualifications to find work as they are now competing with people from all over the world for jobs.

OxfordBags Sat 16-Mar-13 13:49:15

Why does everything have to be so black and white? It's so ignorant, so immature, so hateful and yes, so right wing to believe that there can only be one extreme type of suffering (be that poverty, abuse, etc.) and one narrow and particular type of being deserving of aid and compassion.

Everything in life is on a sliding scale. It's embarrassing to read grown adults saying that X, Y and Z isn't poverty because it isn't the most extreme or obvious examples imaginable. There is real poverty in this country. It might not be as bad as seeing children bloated by starvation and malnutrition dying on filthy beds for the want of a cheap medication, but it does not mean that it's not poverty. People who think there is not true poverty in this country should be doing a bit of bloody research, not spouting ill-informed nonsense.

It is the sign of a civilised society that we not only care for those less fortunate than us but that we also extend that compassion to people whose lifestyles and actions we find undesirable and negative. I'm not on about giving every paedo a free telly, I mean that we don't just dismiss people with chaotic lives, like junkies, parents whose children go to school smelly and hungry, etc. etc. Those people were once children who needed help of some sort or another, even if it was just emotional, but who didn't get it because society turned a blind eye and judged them as unworthy or not suffering enough to deserve it.

Also, I find the idea that it's easier to identify poverty when seen in foreign countries as highly colonial and unconsciously racist - as though it's an automatic given that in non-white countries, it's all a shambles and everyone is dying and their kids suffering and oooh, let's make ourselves feel good by chucking money at the poor, unsophisticated black people. When the reality is that if and where things are shambolic, it's because of the West shafting them economically and just every other way imaginable for centuries.

It also makes people feel comfortable to kid themselves that poverty is something that happens 'over there' to 'them'.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:50:05

No system infallible agree.but there are checks and balances ESP. With circumstances you described

RooneyMara Sat 16-Mar-13 13:50:31

and if safeguards were infallible we wouldn't have children dying of abuse either

the conditions under which some are kept are unthinkable

you must know this?

Smudging Sat 16-Mar-13 13:51:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 13:52:10

>changing unfair trade structures, cancelling debt, reducing corruption, redistributing the disgusting amount of money made by the multinationals, by the pharamaceutical companies not making a vile amount of money on the back of disease.

Couldn't agree more. I think you'll find what Susan George says quite interesting.

How much aid were we giving to India? India has more billionaires and millionaires than the UK, greater wealth inequality, no free health care and education. So where does the aid go and shouldn't we hold the Indian government to account over the dispossession of property happening and the fact that through their neo-liberal wild west mentality they fail to tax and spend on education and health. No......well maybe that is because India is being bribed no to even consider a more socialist approach. In Bolivia under Evo Morales, great improvements are happening and yet I believe we give them no aid.

ihearsounds Sat 16-Mar-13 13:53:45

Of course there is poverty in the UK. No it isn't the same as in Africa and other countries.

People living in properties that have severe damp, and the ll not doing a thing to resolve the situation. Tenants money being spent trying to resolve the issue, money they haven't necessarily got.

A benefit system that makes monumental cock ups with claims, doesn't matter if the claim is jsa or tax credits. These are leaving families without money to live on.

Then there's fuel poverty. Did you know that 4 millions household in the UK are in fuel poverty because of low wages and high energy bills. Not because of drug/alcohol abuse. And that in private accommodation tenants are those affected more.

People fall into poverty for a number of reasons - illness, death of a partner, job losses.

Unlike what is being spouted on here, poverty isn't the main cause of poverty in this country. It is because of low wages. More households with at least one parent working are in poverty. 62% of children living in poverty are in working households. It is projected that the number of children living in poverty is going to increase, over 4 million children in poverty by 2020. Drug and alcohol abusers account for 6.6% of all benefit claimants.

Not all poverty is because of neglect. Sometimes it simply is because families cannot afford to live on low wages and high living costs. Because of the various changed that are being implemented, this is why over the next few years, more children will be in poverty. Not because of drugs or alcohol abuse but because living costs are increasing. The bedroom tax has been mentioned, but also how many families on already stretched incomes, are going to be screwed with the removal of council tax help.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 13:54:40

I think you're being obtuse that kids absent from school unnoticed, neglected by drug using parents as if it's a norm
It's not norm,this is minority,not majority
It's v sad and dysfunctional and I hope such situations result in appropriate interventions and outcome

whimsicalmess Sat 16-Mar-13 14:01:46

whimiscal exactly, you didnt talk about people who are living in poverty for real reasons and the society is letting down, instead you jumped on the bandwagon of the feckless underserving poor

At what point did I say undeserving poor? neglect/poverty is an ever going cycle neglectful parents are victims just as much as neglected children.

KatieMiddleton Sat 16-Mar-13 14:09:02

Yabu and clearly don't understand what the word poverty means.

<hides hateful thread>

pingu2209 Sat 16-Mar-13 14:13:09

It is parental neglect rather than poverty. Children can have homes, clothes, shoes, food, education etc. However, many don't have those things due to the parents putting their own needs and desires first - such as drugs, drink and cigarettes.

YouTheCat Sat 16-Mar-13 14:16:32

Pingu, it is not neglect. You get housed in a damp vile place which eats up the gas and electric just to keep warm and what little you have left goes on food.

How do you expect people to clothe themselves and their children, pay for transport costs, uniforms etc?

I know plenty of kids who live in poverty (and many who have a working parent too) who cannot afford the basics and most certainly do not spend their money on drugs and drink.

Get out of your comfy bubble.

scarlettsmummy2 Sat 16-Mar-13 14:24:04

Pingu - put down the daily mail and take a walk round an area of high unemployment.

ihearsounds Sat 16-Mar-13 14:26:14

Pingu, only 6.6% of all claimants are drug/alcohol users. This still leaves over 55% of children living in poverty. Poverty because of high costs and low incomes, not because of neglect.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 16-Mar-13 14:30:28

YANBU, we dont have real poverty here as the benefit system can actually pay more than many peoples salaries for working.

Chidren have free healthcare, education and if their parents dont wok then the state provides money for housing, food, heat and clothes. If the chid is missing the basics then it is down to the parents and SS should be informed.

Sadly, children are born all over the world into families that dont financially support them but those peope see it as their right to choose the lifestyle choices they want regardless of the cost to others.

A mobile, internet etc are frequently described as essentials on here, which just sums up the fact that poverty is viewed very differently here to those truly in real poverty.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 14:32:26
Dawndonna Sat 16-Mar-13 14:33:47

It is parental neglect rather than poverty. Children can have homes, clothes, shoes, food, education etc. However, many don't have those things due to the parents putting their own needs and desires first - such as drugs, drink and cigarettes.
These are in the minority, apart from which, what made the parents like that in the first place?
Have you had an empathy bypass?

YouTheCat Sat 16-Mar-13 14:33:51

Happymummy, you are so utterly wrong on this. Educate yourself.

FanFuckingTastic Sat 16-Mar-13 14:37:59

I am taking legal advice through the CAB thanks Smudge it's just long and arduous and sometimes I cannot see an end in sight. I am honest at my tether's end and there's not much anyone can do for me, short of loan me money, which I can't accept anyway as my pride won't let me. I got myself into this whole (with the council and benefits system pushing and shoving I may add), I'll get myself out of it too. If it does mean giving up my kids until I do so, I guess that that's what I have to face up to really. It's a combination of my mismanagement of money while I am ill and cock ups and lies from "the system". All I want is a home, no bailiffs, care as we need, and opportunity for my children to do well for themselves through schooling and hard work. I accept in any underprivileged country, I'd likely either be dead or on the streets a beggar because of my health.

Dawndonna Sat 16-Mar-13 14:39:11

HappyMummy that was a joke, right?

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 14:41:04

scottish the point is not all children in the uk have access to healthcare. To say that they do would be incorrect.

The point is if why does it have to be the Bangladeshi community raising money? Does it matter the ethnicity of the child?

scarlettsmummy2 Sat 16-Mar-13 14:42:08

Dawndonna I think your post was a joke! Totally miscomprehension of what it's like to live in a workless household.

stretto Sat 16-Mar-13 14:42:46

What a callous post. Domjolly, are you Iain Duncan Smith? Or George Osborne? Or a Telegraph/Daily Mail journalist?

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 14:42:53

Is HappyMummy being ironic?

AmberLeaf Sat 16-Mar-13 14:43:51

It is parental neglect rather than poverty. Children can have homes, clothes, shoes, food, education etc. However, many don't have those things due to the parents putting their own needs and desires first - such as drugs, drink and cigarettes

Bullshit pingu

Happymummyofone
Not heard of fuel poverty?

fuelpoverty.turn2us.org.uk/

YouTheCat Sat 16-Mar-13 14:43:58

I don't think so. Another who lives in a comfy bubble.

JakeBullet Sat 16-Mar-13 14:44:52

Yawn....back to people who don't understand the difference between absolute poverty and relative poverty.

Fact is if you are born into a lower socio economc class you are likely to be sicker and die sooner than if you were born in social class 1.
I don't care if we call it poverty or not.....it exists and the evidence and statistics are there to back it up.

AmberLeaf Sat 16-Mar-13 14:45:03

scarlett dawndonna was quoting pingus post

scarlettsmummy2 Sat 16-Mar-13 14:45:37

Sorry- dawndonna- i thought that was your opinion!

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 14:46:16

happymummy there are many children who don't have access to public funds.

gordyslovesheep Sat 16-Mar-13 14:46:21

no it's not neglect - wages, especially in the public sector where many low waged, especially female, people work have been frozen for a few years now (but hey your council tax hasn't risen) but fuel, food, petrol, transport costs have risen and risen - people are finding it difficult to feed their families and heat their homes, hunger and cold are a fact of life for many parents and sadly some kids - for example

that's not neglect it's being POOR

Sunnywithshowers Sat 16-Mar-13 14:47:35

YABU OP.

You mention the internet as a marker of not being poor. It's becoming vital to exist in this society.

Are you aware that, in the next couple of years, all benefits will have to be accessed via the internet? And that libraries - some of which offered free or subsidised access - have been closing?

Many schools expect children to use the internet to produce homework.

Something like 25-30% of people don't have access to the internet. The benefits changes and schooling issues above could change their situation from relative poverty into abject poverty.

fromparistoberlin Sat 16-Mar-13 14:47:53

madre dio OP!!! how can you even type this

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 14:50:58

Anyone wishing to raise money to fund the child op can nailak. Inc the expat community
If she were Scottish I'd suggest Scottish community dig deep.anyone can if so moved
There's a charity in London called scotcare for scots experiencing hard times in Ldn

BangOn Sat 16-Mar-13 14:52:47

No children living in genuine poverty in the UK?

Let's just say this government is working on it. Just wait & see. Fans of Dickensian period dramas will be rubbing their hands together in anticipation, no doubt. sad

FanFuckingTastic Sat 16-Mar-13 14:54:33

Benefit family here, need mobile phone, absolutely essential for living, and so is the internet. Without them, quality of life would be awful. I'm disabled and I need a way to communicate with the outside world, shop and get help if I need it. Just going out to get it is not always a choice I have. HappyMummy

Stop focusing on the media version of families on benefits and start thinking with your head.

Dawndonna Sat 16-Mar-13 14:56:41

Scarlettsmummy2
No worries and so easily done, been there more than once!
grin

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 14:59:56

anyway I have contacted bbc and huffington post to ask if i can get permission from the family to fundraise on their behalf.

I believe that there are different definitions of community, i don't consider myself part of a community based on ethnicity or whatever, my communities are those I live and interact with, who are from various ethnicities and cultures. This is a child born in the UK we are talking about. The child's community is surely all of us.

scottishmummy Sat 16-Mar-13 15:08:38

Nailak,well done initiating fundraising.it's certainly an option to this
I simply suggested her parents expat community,as starting point. others too can contribute
Child born here,yes.but child not uk citizen eligible for emergency treatments only
Welfare benefits have eligibility criteria,henc people can be ineligible for recourse to public funds

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Sat 16-Mar-13 15:13:21

Is this now merging with the thread about the child of overstayers who needs an operation?

edam Sat 16-Mar-13 15:13:50

Oh fgs. There are plenty of homeless families in this country - and their number is rising. Do you think it's easy to keep your children clean, warm and well-fed when you have been dumped in a grotty B&B for months because there aren't enough council houses? With no fridge, no cooker, only one room and a shared bathroom?

Just because there's appalling poverty in Africa doesn't make appalling poverty in this country disappear, or less of a scandal. Funny how it's always the poor who are written out of existence - people who are rich or comfortably off don't have to go around for apologising for existing just because they are a million times better off than an equivalent family in South Sudan or wherever.

RooneyMara Sat 16-Mar-13 16:24:07

scottishmummySat 16-Mar-13 13:54:40

I think you're being obtuse that kids absent from school unnoticed, neglected by drug using parents as if it's a norm
It's not norm,this is minority,not majority
It's v sad and dysfunctional and I hope such situations result in appropriate interventions and outcome
_________

Hold up. I never said it was a majority. Please don't call me obtuse when you've misunderstood the premise of my posts.

I am glad you agree that it happens.

Clearly we all share the hope that something is done to sort it but that doesn't mean it always is.

Orwellian Sat 16-Mar-13 17:47:39

YANBU!

There is no ABSOLUTE poverty in the UK. There is however poverty of aspiration.

Most of the relative poverty in the UK is the fault of selfish and inefficient parenting rather than the fault of the state etc as we only too often see in the news (Philpott tragedy for example).

theodorakisses Sat 16-Mar-13 17:54:39

it is, and should be, a relative term. I weep sometimes when I read on here of people living in flats where the damp is so bad that there are mushrooms are growing on the walls. Never have I wondered if they are living there because the parents are too lazy to get jobs because it is irrelevant. Poverty is relative to your culture and no child should have to live like that. It is easy for me to say it, but I have actually worked in these places and I have experienced children who live in poverty who have parents who feel far less hopeless than people in the UK. If you have a welfare system, you have a complete responsibility to ensure that children do not have to experience poverty and unacceptable living conditions and the great thing about the UK should be the access to decent housing, education and social mobility. If that is not happening then the UK is failing and forget the rest of the world unless you want to find a cause and support it. Nobody deserves to live in poverty, wherever they live.

YouTheCat Sat 16-Mar-13 17:55:02

Orwellian, you have no idea. None whatsoever.

dashoflime Sat 16-Mar-13 18:02:40

YANBU: there are no Chikdren in poverty, at least I've never heard about it if there are, whatever chikdren are?

Are they like young chickens?

will read thread now...

PigsCanSoar Sat 16-Mar-13 18:09:54

I agree there is no children in real poverty in the country by necessity. However I'm sure there are individuals who's parents either aren't aware of or aren't receiving the help that is available, and who's children are therefore suffering, or who's parents are using money for things other than the children.

But I think any child in real poverty in the UK is more a victim of neglect than poverty as support is available here.

dikkertjedap Sat 16-Mar-13 18:10:42

biscuit for OP

YouTheCat Sat 16-Mar-13 18:12:11

So those (many working) people who have to choose between food and heating, don't exist?

Those parents who go without food so their children can eat, don't exist?

Those people who can't afford the very basics of clothes, don't exist?

There are so many working poor in this country and it seems a lot of people have no idea about how hard it is for some people.

dashoflime Sat 16-Mar-13 18:13:03

Oh! Children

Yes, of course there are children living in poverty. I know plenty of families who can't afford to heat their houses and put food on the table.

What would you call it when you can't provide basics like heating and food?

ChoudeBruxelles Sat 16-Mar-13 18:17:07

Relative to the rest of the population there are many children who live in poverty. Welfare reform is going to increase that number. There are areas of the city I work in where you can't buy decent, reasonably prices healthy food. Children go to school either not having eaten or eaten crap. A lot of it is to do with education, as well as very low incomes. Some parents simply don't know how to cook a decent meal.

JakeBullet Sat 16-Mar-13 18:30:47

Can I put my hand up here and admit to worrying about the cost of heating....I have been told my house is cold...but I am too scared to put the heating up above a certain level due to the cost.

I don't consider myself "in poverty" although I am currently on benefits. I have a long history of employment and will eventually be able to return to work. But I do consider it an issue that people struggle to heat their homes etc.

Food...I am a good cook and cook from scratch....we don't go hungry. I am so glad I only have DS though.

NeverKnowinglyUnderstood Sat 16-Mar-13 18:32:46

what I find interesting - aside from the op is that people who have more right wing views seem to be blind or deluded and those who have left wing views are informed and insightful.
MN seems to have gone from a place where people can have discussion and disagree about things to a fit or fuck off kind of place

IneedAgoldenNickname Sat 16-Mar-13 18:43:48

This thread depresses me. My Mum bought me some food this week because I'm skint. I owe my Dad money because he paid my electric bill so I don't get cut off. Didn't realise it's because I'm such a shit fucking parent sad

And yes I have internet on my phone, because I need it for college. Trust me, it's practicably impossible to do assignments with no computer, but I'm managing because I'll be no better off if I take a minimum wage job. At least this way, I know I'll be better of eventually.

Dawndonna Sat 16-Mar-13 18:52:57

*YANBU!

There is no ABSOLUTE poverty in the UK. There is however poverty of aspiration.

Most of the relative poverty in the UK is the fault of selfish and inefficient parenting rather than the fault of the state etc as we only too often see in the news (Philpott tragedy for example).*
Orwellian dear, I do keep telling you that the Daily Mail website is thataway>

edam Sat 16-Mar-13 19:02:59

I wonder why people want to deny poverty exists? Is it because otherwise they might have to spare a few seconds of their valuable time to give an actual shit about other people less fortunate than themselves?

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 19:03:27

aaahhhhhhhhhhh not every child in UK has access to public funds

www.womensaid.org.uk/page.asp?section=00010001001000020001

The ‘no recourse to public funds’ rule adversely affects women experiencing domestic violence who also have insecure immigration status due to entering the UK to join their settled partner. This is because women experiencing domestic violence who have insecure immigration status are unable to access protection, safety and support services because they have no recourse to public funds, ie. they are unable to access statutory help for housing or related public funds for housing costs (housing benefit to pay the rent) or living expenses (benefits such as income support).

This means that these women with ‘no recourse’ who are fleeing abuse are even unable to access refuges spaces as these are maintained through rental income mainly funded by housing benefit. As a result many women subject to immigration control are trapped with a violent partner. They face a stark choice: either stay within the relationship and risk their lives, and those of their children, or leave and face destitution or being deported.

Women who experience this unequal access to protection include women who are married or are partners of a British national or someone settled in this country; and women who are partners or dependants of students and workers, or are here temporarily in their own right. Many of these women have children who are British citizen.

The Domestic Violence Immigration Rule allows women who enter the UK as spouses or long-term partners of a British national or someone settled in this country, and who are subject to a two year probationary period, to apply for residency if they can ‘prove’ the relationship broke down due to domestic violence.

Yet in practice, the ‘no recourse’ rule means that many women subject to a probationary period are unable to make use of this Rule because they cannot access safety and protection for the length of time it takes to finalise an application (before making an application abused women need time to seek support and advice about their options in a safe environment, obtain legal representation, and gather evidence to support an application).

What’s the solution?

Abused women subject to immigration control need financial resources to enable them to access safety, support and advice, before making a Domestic Violence Rule application. We call for an exemption to the ‘no recourse to public funds rule’ for all abused women in crisis and subject to immigration control.

Accessible information about domestic violence and the immigration rules should be available before entry into the UK, at the point of entry, and routinely in appropriate venues in local communities. Those who have ‘overstayed’ because of their experience of domestic violence should also be eligible to apply for residency under the Domestic Violence Immigration Rule.

The Domestic Violence Immigration Rule should be extended to all abused women in crisis subject to immigration control. All abused women and children subject to immigration control need access to permanent safety and support in the UK.

In the meantime, mandatory guidance should be issued to all local authorities which requires them to use their existing powers to financially assist and support single women and women with children experiencing domestic and sexual violence with insecure immigration status without recourse to public funds. Any guidance produced should require local authorities to fund abused women from the point of leaving and until a final Border and Immigration Agency decision on the case.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 21:08:13

What I find really interesting in these discussions is the fact that those on right, so keen on moral obligation and individual responsibility are the very same people who fail to EDUCATE themselves. Wilfully ignorant of the facts they consistently resort to personal bias and anecdote.

They NEVER ground their personal opinion on evidence, when faced with evidence they look the other way. This I guess is why they fail to see what is so blatantly obvious.

I also wish those on the right would learn to spell ! or at least educate themselves to use spell check......they do have an obligation and personal responsibility to do so wink

Bowlersarm Sat 16-Mar-13 21:15:59

Bit of a sweeping statement mini . Do you believe ALL those on the right can't spell? And surely their personal bias will be based on their personal opinion? It wouldn't make sense otherwise. You assume that everyone should have leanings towards the left because you do, and if they don't then they are wrong

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 16-Mar-13 21:16:29

Op yabu.

My sister comes out with the same sort of rubbish but she's a nasty thick festering cock.

nailak Sat 16-Mar-13 22:05:40

i am biased based on my personal experiences and meeting children in poverty, why wouldnt i be?

TheSecondComing Sat 16-Mar-13 22:51:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MiniTheMinx Sat 16-Mar-13 23:04:53

nailak, my comment was about those denying poverty in the UK.

Tortington Sat 16-Mar-13 23:12:51

i work in a very deprived area,
a family of five children do not go to school becuase their mum is a druggie. they have no toys
they dont have clean beds
they dont have clean clothes
food isn't always bought - and when it is, the kids fight for it - literally.
they are about to be taken in care - ( we think)
This has been going on for years.

This is not unusual

We run activities whihc include cooking, so the kids who come to the project can get a meal that day.

Dragonwoman Sat 16-Mar-13 23:13:19

I think there are many people in the UK who can't afford to heat their houses. Fuel prices are so high I know we couldnt if on a low wage.
I consider living in an unheated house in the UK in winter absolute poverty rather than relative actually. It could kill you if you are very young, old, unwell or unable to move about for any reason.
I realise years ago people didn't have central heating but most people had a fire and only the very poor couldn't use it. Actually even very poor people would collect rubbish to burn, an option unavailable in most low quality accommodation today, which usually has electric heaters only.

Darkesteyes Sat 16-Mar-13 23:13:42

ooh look a benefit bashing thread appearing right after Comic Relief <quelle surprise.

OP Happy Mummy of one et al have some biscuit biscuit biscuit

I wonder which right wing ostrich MNer will start a similar thread after Children in Need come November!

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 16-Mar-13 23:18:25

Dark don't forget it will be complaining about it being called children in need because there aren't any.

The thread will be called crap parents.

timidviper Sat 16-Mar-13 23:24:13

I was shocked recently to hear of a school near to me where the teachers arrive at work early each day to walk a circular route knocking on doors to collect children and walk them to school because they know that the parents will not get their children to school otherwise. I had no idea things were this bad sad

I think the problem is poverty of aspiration not poverty like you see in Africa

YouTheCat Sat 16-Mar-13 23:53:52

Just to point out, again, not everyone in poverty is there because they are junkies or alcoholics.

There are plenty of people who work in low paid jobs and struggle to heat homes, feed their families and clothe them. Due to rising fuel and food and a stagnant economy.

I'm not in poverty (not so much that I can't eat, though heating is rationed) but I am lucky.

sashh Sun 17-Mar-13 04:08:48

scottishmummy

You have no idea.

I knew I needed glasses for 3 years before I was taken to an optician.

I had to beg for a doctor to be called, I begged from mid day until the evening. The Dr took about 30 seconds before he called an ambulance.

We were not poor, by any standards, which is probably why no social worker appeared on the scene.

There is poverty in the UK, just like there is in all Western countries.

There are families who fall between the social security net.

Then there are neglected children. A child who isn't properly clothed, fed or housed properly is in poverty from that child's perspective.

While there is far more poverty in the third world, there is another thing that the UK may be pretty close behind on - despair.

ModernToss Sun 17-Mar-13 08:29:15

OF COURSE there is poverty in the UK, as there is in the US and all other western countries. Comparing levels of poverty is utterly counter-productive, although I am sure it makes some posters feel better to decide that parents have chosen drinking and smoking over feeding their kids.

I'm going to hide this thread now. The OP and her Daily Mail wilful ignorance drive me insane.

edam Sun 17-Mar-13 09:42:13

Bowlers - I love the fact that the thing that really pissed you off about mini's post was the slur on right-wingers' ability to spell. grin A woman after my own heart. (Not politically but we can join hands across the divide on the importance of spelling.)

scottishmummy Sun 17-Mar-13 09:46:42

I have no idea?What about your glasses?
Well given I've not specifically discussed glasses with you.what's your point.
What's the backstory to 3yr wait?why not get free pair at optician

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 09:58:55

Edam you haven't defected to the right have you confused well I am just digging because if those on the right think personal obligation trumps social responsibility you would expect education to form a major part of their drive towards self sufficiency.

Bias is different to opinion, someone's bias will colour their opinion.

I think a major difference in thinking stems from how people actually think, the process btw their ears. For people on the right opinion is grounded in the bias towards linear cause and effect, ie lack of back bone causes poverty. Those on the left might look at the situation and say there is a two way process of cause and effect, poverty is caused by lack of financial resources, lack of financial resources leads to hopelessness, just as hopelessness causes poverty. Those on the right are biased towards blaming individuals because of bias, their opinion is formed from that starting point, this means all evidence to the contrary can be ignored.

edam Sun 17-Mar-13 10:00:33

There are bad parents at every income level. If you are rich, it's easier to cover it up or at least not come to the attention of social services. But it can be ruddy hard to be a good parent if you are struggling to feed your children, struggling to heat your home, struggling with bureaucracy when the benefits office or council makes a mistake and suddenly leaves you penniless or homeless.

Poverty is often caused by ill-health - look at the relative levels of poverty amongst the disabled or people with chronic diseases compared to the non-disabled or healthy. But it also causes ill-health, e.g. damp housing worsening asthma in people who would probably not be triggered if they lived in decent homes.

stretto Sun 17-Mar-13 10:38:30

Regarding the comments about poor spelling, I still can't help wondering whether the OP is a right-wing journalist who has thrown in some grammatical and spelling howlers and typos to throw people off the scent. Look out for an article on this subject in the Mail, Telegraph or Spectator!

ModernToss Sun 17-Mar-13 10:46:45

There was another thread recently on the usual benefits bashing theme, where the OP talked about educated people while displaying the worst spelling and grammar imaginable.

Maybe it's a coincidence.

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 11:00:09

Good point. Is there a purpose behind some of these very goading threads?

Those on right like to think that individual responsibility is the key to understanding why some prosper and others don't. Surely then, there is a relationship between aspiration in work and aspiration in education. Those people who are educated to rule have not necessarily been taught to think more than those taught to obey (workers), docility and having no desire to question things leads to the perpetuation of a two class system. If that is true then no amount of hard graft will lift those with little social power out of the gutter of dependency, whilst those born and educated to rule believe that is the natural order. David Cameron is not evil because he has been "educated" to think in very specific terms, his education and lack of critical thinking and scientific enquiry is purposefully manufactured by a two tier education system to shore up and perpetuate the interests of his own class. A system that consistently obscures the real reasons for inequality in order to perpetuate that inequality.

That is why our political class WILL NEVER believe that inequality is anything other than a case of laziness and immorality on the part of the working class.

nannyof3 Sun 17-Mar-13 11:05:52

Ofcourse there is u stupid stupid woman!!!!!!!!!

morethanpotatoprints Sun 17-Mar-13 11:26:46

I think the OP is probably feeling very guilty about his/her income and financial situation.
By pretending that poverty doesn't exist perhaps makes them feel better.

Jojobump1986 Sun 17-Mar-13 11:29:10

Anyone who thinks there isn't poverty should meet some of the people who come to our local foodbank. We regularly have people who lost their jobs, have families to feed & are waiting for their benefits to start. Those people can't afford to heat their homes or feed their children. 9 times out of 10 they don't want to come to the foodbank & feel embarrassed & ashamed that they have to resort to charity. I don't understand how people can think that if someone isn't working then they must automatically have benefits & therefore money in the bank. It can take a while for all the paperwork to be sorted so people are left with no income through no fault of their own. Those children do live in poverty. It may not be as extreme as in Africa but it's still an issue & certainly not down to neglect on the parents' part.

edam Sun 17-Mar-13 11:58:44

Yeah, if you work for a firm that goes bankrupt you can be out of a job instantly with no wages. Do people who think 'there is no poverty' think the benefits fairy magically puts money in your pocket immediately, without any forms to fill in or be processed?

quoteunquote Sun 17-Mar-13 12:36:00

OP, please go and volunteer at your local food bank,

we can't get enough food in our local ones, despite very generous donations, to supply everyone, it's very hard turning families away empty handed.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Sun 17-Mar-13 12:43:21

Yes, getting involved with a local foodbank has been an eye-opener for me.

cory Sun 17-Mar-13 13:38:12

Why does the OP only take in concepts such as having to walk 3 hours to school or not being able to have medication, but not such concepts as being cold or damp or developing asthma from mouldy housing?

Is it perhaps because our ideas of absolute poverty are fixed by images we have seen from certain countries and not from others? If it doesn't look like Africa or India it isn't "real" poverty?

Does she imagine there are no children living on the street in this country?

morethanpotatoprints Sun 17-Mar-13 15:25:10

quoteunquote and other volunteers.

Sorry to derail but my dd is H.ed (aged 9) and has asked me several times if she can donate her time once a month to volunteering help at a food bank. It would have to be during the week though due to weekend commitments.
She is legally deregistered from school, do you know if this would be allowed especially if I was to accompany her? Do you think it acceptable?
She regularly buys extra food in our groceries each week but feels this isn't enough.

MeAndMySpoon Sun 17-Mar-13 15:31:43

biscuitbiscuitbiscuit for the OP.

No, please - have the whole packet. grin

I havent read the whole thread yet, but this jumped out at me.

It puzzles me that some people seem to manage fairly well on benefit and others are down to lilving on one weetabix with water. Something isn't right somewhere or we are not being told the whole story.

This statement is based on the assumption that everyone on benefits has started on the same spot. That no claimant had high outgoings before they lost their job. No contracts or leases that they are bound to. A decent, cheap house thats already furnished etc etc.

People are plunged into poverty everyday. When the cash stops coming it really stops.

There are holes in the benefits system that people fall through. We experienced it last year.

For example, a person I know was homeless, but unable to be assessed for housing because he had no address. They wanted to visit him where he was living, but stated that they wouldnt visit his van, because of health and safety. hmm

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Sun 17-Mar-13 17:42:37

Morethanpotatoprints - I think you need to speak to your local foodbank organisers. Ours is busy during the week and would always welcome more volunteers, but a lot of the mid-week work is unloading vans and heavy lifting, so it might be a bit much for a 9 year old. I'm not sure what you mean by "allowed": from foodbank's point of view I'm pretty sure they would want you to accompany her (if only for child protection/insurance reasons) but from the HomeEd POV I would say that this was education in the fullest sense.

quoteunquote Sun 17-Mar-13 18:00:51

morethanpotprints,

ask, she could always help out with the sorting when they are shut,

We have in the past done shoeboxes, or smaller, full of goodies, like art stuff, stickers,puzzles, games comics,balloons,sweets ,note books and joke books anything that will create a little fun, to go to homes with children, the sort of things children who have privileged lives buy with pocket money.

if they don't want her on the premises (they may worry she will spot someones mum from school) she could organise making up some boxes with her friends, we make them up in age groups, some which would suit any gender(for when they don't know the age of the children or gender) some boys and girls, mark with a removable label who the package is aimed at, some of the older volunteers find it hard to judge.

Children are best placed to know what other children will enjoy.

Anyone donating, spare animal food goes down well, people don't want to give up their companion.

scottishmummy Sun 17-Mar-13 18:03:14

A child participating at food bank may require the adults to have enhanced crb,this costs
I'd approach food bank manager,get some carification

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud Sun 17-Mar-13 18:07:24

CRB checks are for people who work unsupervised with children. As Morethanpotatoprints will be there with her daughter, that ought to be a non-issue, but it is one of the reasons for asking the local foodbank for advice. I think our local volunteers are CRB-ed anyway.

scottishmummy Sun 17-Mar-13 18:10:09

I know the purpose of crb,introducing a child to workplace changes dynamic
Yes I Expect she will be with mum always but nonetheless it is factor
If a role can be created it will be v enriching

Jojobump1986 Sun 17-Mar-13 19:11:08

There's no reason why an accompanied child couldn't do the warehouse work of sorting the donations. I doubt they'd let her meet any of the foodbank users though - that'd be a confidentiality issue. I used to have my DS with me when I helped out but he was just a baby & is now a toddler who likes to examine everything! I stopped when it became apparent that we were more of a hindrance than a help! sad I'm planning on home educating & have every intention of volunteering again with him when we can actually be useful!

morethanpotatoprints Sun 17-Mar-13 19:16:02

Ah, thank you for the posts. I didn't mean to sabotage the thread. We have one in the next town to us so I will give them a call.
She is adamant she wants to do it and will be disappointed if she couldn't. But I do understand that from an insurance pov and her age it might not be possible.
Many thanks again. smile

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 19:29:24

Yeah, if you work for a firm that goes bankrupt you can be out of a job instantly with no wages. Do people who think 'there is no poverty' think the benefits fairy magically puts money in your pocket immediately, without any forms to fill in or be processed?

That is self inflicted, due to profligate spending and inability to forward plan. Anyone who does not put money aside in case they lose their job is a fool.

I'm sure I'll get flamed lots and told I'm out of touch with all the 'hand to mouth' crew, but before you do that please give me an example of a 'hand to mouth' budget. Say you have an income of £870.43 a month. Wouldn't it just be a fucking ENORMOUS coincidence that somebody on that income has to spend exactly £870.43 a month as well? Everybody can save something. No excuses.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 19:33:29

Zwischenzug, what about those who really struggle with what they already earn, so that putting more than a tenner a month is just not viable? How do expect them to cover the shortfall between losing a job and getting benefits? They can't exactly magic money out of thin air and not many energy/water/food companies are going to say 'oh it's okay, you pay next month'.

Great that you live in a position to be able to save for that rainy day, but don't assume that everyone has that luxury.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 17-Mar-13 19:37:29

So how much money or how many months worth would you have to have saved before you are a twat whose own fault it is if your skint?

No excuses? Sorry but thats a load of shit.

People are living without savings. They have to to keep a roof over their heads and pay the bills.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 19:39:40

Actually, I'm working. My dp is working. But I've had to use up part of my savings to cover the increases in food and fuel costs. Our pay hasn't risen in years but everything else has sky-rocketed in price.

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 19:40:53

Cat, again, I'd love to see a budget from somebody in that sort of situation because I suspect anybody with a full-time job could re-evaluate their spending and save more than a tenner. Maybe they'd need to reduce expenses by moving to a cheaper place or evaluate other aspects of their living arrangements, but I really don't believe it can't be done. £50 for most people I don't think is out of the question. And after a few months you'll have a buffer to last you until your benefit claims are processed.

I'm in a position to save now and do, but I've done all sorts of low wage jobs and always managed to save something whilst I've been in work. Even when that meant living off a diet of 7p tesco noodles...

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Sun 17-Mar-13 19:42:09

Zwischenzug
Lovely idea, but in reality it doesn't work for everyone

gordyslovesheep Sun 17-Mar-13 19:42:11

hahahaha yeh because people on min wage can save loads of money grin I hope you never find out what a simplistic crock of crap that statement is

expatinscotland Sun 17-Mar-13 19:44:21

Yes, let's just all race to the bottom, until we get there, then it's all well and good reason to completely dismantle society until we're there, too.

hmm

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 19:44:34

Load of crap. I'm in a council property, paying full rent (which has just gone up). There is no where cheaper to live. And where would they get all this money to cover moving costs anyway? £50 for a lot of people is their entire week's food budget for their family.

£50 is a hell of a lot to so many people. To think that it isn't just goes to show that you have no idea of the deprivation that some people are suffering in this country.

edam Sun 17-Mar-13 19:52:00

Zwischenzug, have you heard about 'empathy' at all? Sounds like you need to look it up in a dictionary. You could also benefit from looking up the phrase 'walk a mile in another man's shoes'. Some people are really struggling even in work - especially on minimum wages.

It doesn't matter how much you juggle your spending if rent + council tax + utilities + food + transport to work comes to more than your income or just barely matches your income leaving nothing left over for unexpected difficulties, like your car breaking down (which you need to get to work) or both your kids needing new shoes.

I don't know why it's so hard for some people to grasp that people have different incomes. Seems quite obvious, Bill Gates is richer than David Cameron who is richer than the average teacher who is richer than the average shop assistant, who is richer than the average cleaner.

Life is hard for many people right now. Wages are flat and even if you get a rise, it's probably less than inflation. Energy bills, council tax (in many areas), food, transport are all getting more expensive. Oddly enough there are more people around given we've had a double dip recession and the economy is either flatlining or heading into a triple dip... surely anyone can grasp that fairly simple concept?

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 17-Mar-13 19:53:11

Zwi, how long have you been working and how many months wages have you in your account now?

expatinscotland Sun 17-Mar-13 19:54:13

'Cat, again, I'd love to see a budget from somebody in that sort of situation because I suspect anybody with a full-time job could re-evaluate their spending and save more than a tenner. Maybe they'd need to reduce expenses by moving to a cheaper place or evaluate other aspects of their living arrangements, but I really don't believe it can't be done. £50 for most people I don't think is out of the question. And after a few months you'll have a buffer to last you until your benefit claims are processed'

PMSL!!! Right there at the 'move to a cheaper area' - spray! What condescending, patronising guff! PLENTY of people with a full-time job can't save FA!

And where are all these cheaper areas to move to, so their cost of transport to work, assuming they can move somewhere cheaper and still be able to make it to their min wage job with its 24/7 shifts, oh, and find a LL who takes their partial LHA/HB or kids.

But of course, it's so much easier to lay blame at the poor and working poor, they are just feckless and don't know how to budget as well as you, that's why they can't save.

Bollocks.

spanky2 Sun 17-Mar-13 19:54:17

DailyMail reader ?

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 19:54:29

I'd like to bet when you were living off 7p noodles, you didn't have any kids to feed or clothe.

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 19:54:37

A full time (37.5hr) NMW worker takes home £895 a month. £50 is not a huge amount of money in the context of that monthly pay. It is approx 5% of salary, and that doesn't include benefits or anything else. Are there really huge swathes of the country who have an absolute minimum spend of over 95% of salary every month? Strikes me as way too much of a coincidence that so many people claim their salary EXACTLY matches their minimum outgoings.

Cat, you say you are spending your savings to compensate for a rise in your expenses, that clearly isn't sustainable - presumably you have a plan to reduce your expenses before your savings run out?

edam Sun 17-Mar-13 19:57:14

more poor people around, I meant!

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 19:57:41

Of course I have. And also take whatever extra hours I can get at work, above my contracted hours.

I just think you are being obtuse. You have no empathy.

edam Sun 17-Mar-13 19:58:58

yeah, and out of that £895 comes rent, council tax, utilities, transport, food, clothes - can you not see how it mounts up? And can you not grasp that some people don't even have a job, let alone a full-time one? There are something like a million people who are 'under-employed' i.e. they want to work full-time but can only get part-time.

Do you not read/watch/listen to the news at all, ever?

expatinscotland Sun 17-Mar-13 19:59:44

'Are there really huge swathes of the country who have an absolute minimum spend of over 95% of salary every month? Strikes me as way too much of a coincidence that so many people claim their salary EXACTLY matches their minimum outgoings.'

Yes. Inflation has not fallen, and the cost of everything is rising, particularly power and heat, you know, to make food, bathe and avoid hypothermia.

But again, it's so much lazier just to blame those mugs on min wage. They're just feckless and too stupid. If they're poor, it's a) not really poverty b) their own fault.

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 20:03:10

I have plenty of empathy for situations where situations beyond a persons control has some damaging effect on their own or their families life. However with financial problems, it's all too common for people to plead poverty when they just haven't budgeted in a prudent manner.

expatinscotland Sun 17-Mar-13 20:06:31

The good ol' deserving poor theory! Wow. All those people who risked their lives, and lost them, to move our society out of Victorian ideals and it was for FA.

infamouspoo Sun 17-Mar-13 20:08:45

Even if you save a tenner a month its easily eaten up with shoes, uniform, something breaking. You never get ahead on that sort of wage.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 20:11:45

I'm not actually pleading poverty. We're surviving and will continue to. I'm lucky because I've got a decent roof over my head, at a reasonable rent. Other people might be paying out £600 or more a month in rent though.

There are so many children I see in my work, who come to school with no breakfast. It might be that there was no money for bread or milk. Or may be some benefits have gone astray but then that leaves the family vulnerable to loan sharks, just to get some money to feed the kids and before you know it, you have a vicious circle of debt. It is very very easy to get in to debt just from one small crisis, like the cooker breaking down.

How is that within a person's control?

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 20:17:59

vulnerable to loan sharks

This is the crux of your argument really, and I don't see how you can say that deciding to take out debt is not within an individuals control. If somebody takes out a loan without anything in the pipeline that would allow them to pay it back, they are a mug. I do feel sorry for these people, but it's their financial literacy that has let them down, not a lack of money.

infamouspoo Sun 17-Mar-13 20:21:15

they meant to live without food or a cooker or shoes then zwischenzug? Clearly you have never been in this position.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 20:23:13

No it's not the crux. But it does happen. So get a £20 loan or don't eat? Mmm what to do? But next week that £20 will have gone up and it becomes a cycle of debt.

What about managing to feed kids adequately without a cooker? Is that fine? Or should people go and get one on finance?

Yes, there are choices but for quite a lot of people living in poverty, it is Hobson's choice.

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 20:24:30

Living without a cooker temporarily isn't a big deal, I've done it myself (due do a dodgy landlord, not money issues). I'd certainly rather live off cold food than put myself in a position where losing my job would have me out on the street. School shoes cost £4 in wynsors, even a tenner a month more than covers that.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 20:26:30

Yes, yourself. What about the kids? And it might take a long while to save enough for a new one.

What if there is no way to get to a cheap retail outlet, they are usually out of town for a start? So you have to buy whatever is cheapest but cheap shoes don't last anyway so it's a false economy half the time.

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 20:27:23

So get a £20 loan or don't eat?

Even you seemed to grudgingly agree than most people can save a tenner a month, so there should be no need for a £20 loan.smile

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 20:28:47

Children won't starve if their food isn't hot. Anyway tescos do microwaves for £30 IIRC. There are cheaper options than full-scale cookers.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 20:29:08

Most people who are working, unless there is some crisis like a broken washer/cooker or whatever. Not if you're surviving on benefits.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 20:29:41

Where are people going to get this £30?

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 20:31:11

Save it, if they haven't already. And stick to cold food in the meantime.

IneedAgoldenNickname Sun 17-Mar-13 20:32:00

Of course children won't starve if their food isn't hot, but I'm not sure how good a diet they'd have if they never get a hot meal confused and surely a child who doesn't have decent hot food, is living in poverty?

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 20:32:58

Save what? They have nothing to save. Save maybe £2 a week from benefits? So 15 weeks with no hot food. But then kid needs a coat. So £10 for a cheap coat. Then save another 5 weeks. Then kid needs shoes....

And so it goes on and on.

happyinherts Sun 17-Mar-13 20:37:21

I think certain people here are just looking for an argument now.

£4 for school shoes? Well, they are going to last a long while arent they? False economy if you're shelling out every week. Apart from the fact teenage boys shoes are not£4

£30 for a microwave instead of a cooker? That isn't going to fulfil a family's needs is it? Again false economy.

If you are lacking in money that doesnt make you stupid enough to think that a £4 pair of shoes solves your problems. It doesnt, it puts it off for another week until that pair breaks

I despair. NMW per month gets eaten up in rent and outgoings without anything major breaking down - to fall into poverty is the easiest thing going and I sympathise with those who can't see that because unfortunately one day you just might.

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 20:38:44

* child who doesn't have decent hot food, is living in poverty?*

Depends on your definition of poverty. Anyway the original point I was responding to was regarding people who go to the foodbank because they've lost their jobs and have a balance of £0 in their account. I've not seen any persuasive arguments that they there is a good reason these sort of people couldn't have saved a small amount so they could at least pay for food and the basics of life until the benefits system kicks in.

How people budget when they are jobless and receiving benefits is another matter - I'm not going to pretend I know how much money these people have, because I've not been in that situation. All I would say is that it would again be a massive coincidence if their income matched their minimum outgoings to the penny.

Yfronts Sun 17-Mar-13 20:41:41

Homeless children and hungry children do exist in the UK.

happyinherts Sun 17-Mar-13 20:47:48

zwischenzug admits to ignorance now - we are getting somewhere

It isnt a massive coincidence that income matches outgoings. I shall enlighten you.

Income is less than outgoings - people juggle finances according to weekly priorities. Sooner or later it all catches up with them and poverty is a fact of life, reality

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 20:52:18

7p tesco noodles...

and who was being exploited in the creation of those, I wonder what sort of wages those workers took home.

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 20:53:47

A three bedroom house in Mid Sussex is over £1300 PCM to rent. How can anyone live on NMW and manage to save.

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 20:55:36

"again be a massive coincidence if their income matched their minimum outgoings to the penny"

You are of course absolutely right, for many people their outgoings on rent and basics actually exceeds what they now have coming in.

zwischenzug Sun 17-Mar-13 21:01:44

I didn't realise it was obligatory for NMW earners to rent 3 bed houses in mid sussex. Glad I don't earn NMW as I wouldn't want to live somewhere so expensive even on my above-NMW current wage wink

Anyway this chopping block is getting itchy, it's someone else turn.

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 21:03:26

But this is commuter land, this is your passport to work !

Some people have grown up here and now can not afford to live here despite having work. What would you have people do, give up work and go on benefits?

DioneTheDiabolist Sun 17-Mar-13 21:04:11

Back in my London days, the NMW quoted would have just about covered my rent and council tax with nothing left over for food and transport.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-13 21:06:54

So where are you expecting all the cleaners and dinner ladies in Sussex to live?

Viviennemary Sun 17-Mar-13 21:18:21

People cannot expect the low waged in other parts of the country to subsidise extortianate private rentals in some parts of the UK. When the subsidies stop the rents will come down. if the subsidies don't stop the rents will be forced ever higher and the situation will worsen. I am very glad there is a cap coming in on housing benefit. I hope it works.

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 21:22:41

Yes and many of those low waged workers in the south will be plunged into poverty. What should they do? give up their work and live on benefit? because something like 60% of housing benefit is paid to people in employment.

FreudiansSlipper Sun 17-Mar-13 21:23:49

Of course children are living in poverty here not to the same degree as they are in third world countries but are living in conditions that are just not acceptable in a wealthy country such as the uk

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 21:23:59

YouTheCat

Those who make use of their labour for peanuts will just have to empty their own bins, supervise their own kids and clean their own houses wink

The crap talked on this thread is so offensive it makes me feel sick.

Try to grasp the fact that not everyone is as lucky as you are. And its through no fault of their own. If you cannot do that then I despair.

WafflyVersatile Sun 17-Mar-13 21:39:50

It shouldn't be a cap on housing benefit it should be a cap on rent. Stop subsidising landlords. You understand that if someone on benefits has their rent put up they don't get any more money, the landlord does? Or these days they have to magic the money out of thin air themselves, or move and somehow find the money to do that.

We need more social housing, by which I mean council housing not the fake social housing we're having palmed off on us. And social housing units should be in all parts of the city, not just the least desirable areas (I'm thinking of London here)

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 21:40:53

People cannot expect the low waged in other parts of the country to subsidise extortianate private rentals in some parts of the UK. When the subsidies stop the rents will come down. if the subsidies don't stop the rents will be forced ever higher and the situation will worsen. I am very glad there is a cap coming in on housing benefit. I hope it works

Ok, where to start??????? one of the reasons that housing is so expensive in the south is because the UK now has a London centric economy where the vast majority of national income (GDP) is earned here. With increasing financification of capital, ie investments into markets where money makes money rather than capital investment into manufacturing, this has hyper inflated housing costs here.

Low waged workers need not feel upset about other low waged workers, what they need to direct the ire towards is the fact that global capital is increasingly focused on financial markets or taking flight to exploit cheap labour elsewhere.

Viviennemary Sun 17-Mar-13 22:07:00

What annoys me quite a lot is that the Labour government did not address this problem in the years they had. They only gave more and more subsidies to private landlords. I'm not against private rentals but they have to be affordable for ordinary people. And if they are not there is something wrong with the system.

Completely agree about private rentals. Its ridiculous that LLs are getting away with it.

MiniTheMinx Sun 17-Mar-13 22:21:14

The problem is land and property is where a huge chunk of the banks and investors, pension funds and speculators have been making money for some considerable time.

One of the problems is that when wealthy funds/wealthy investors have money they need to invest, the more they make the more they have to invest. Banks leverage money (create out of thin air) and property is a physical asset. The problem with this is that land prices sky rocket, banks lend to investors, buyers and developers, in the end the you get to a situation where the debt actually overhangs the real value of the physical asset.

The only way to prevent this is to : build more social housing, cap private rents, reform planning laws, nationalise the banks and prevent banks from packaging up mortgages into investments and for the government to take control of the money supply. Right now banks are not lending to businesses because all the money that was ploughed in via QS is being used to deleverage and wipe out the black holes on their balance sheets.

Expecting working people to up sticks and move to where there is no work is not the answer.

expatinscotland Mon 18-Mar-13 01:43:08

'I am very glad there is a cap coming in on housing benefit. I hope it works.'

It will not and isn't. Because now the lending restrictions are very much present. Fewer and fewer are able to buy. Anything. FTBs are all-time lows yet prices keep rising.

Have a look at the threads on here. Many, many working people, some with two incomes above NMW, unable to rent for having children. 'We want DINKs (dual income, no kids).' And they are getting them! Because the DINKs cannot buy anymore and free the ones in the flats to buy something else, and the ones in the flats sit in negative equity, and the private LL is seen to be doing service to society, despite the myriad of other threads, of private letters in full-time, good work forced to house their LL's junk and put up with his or her, 'My house, my rules' despite paying top whack for the hire of the space. Would you couch yourself in a hotel room so full of stuff of the proprietor's that you had hardly space to lie down and place your bags after you paid for hire of the place? You would not, but people do or then they will be homeless.

It is not shelter it is an investment vehicle. The LL is tied to it. 'It is my house.'

And these are those in good positions.

'No DSS, no children'. All well and good as it is legal. And you can see where LL is coming from, often, his mortgage lender or insurance will not permit of him letting to those in receipt of any DSS, though 80% of those claiming are in work. Lloyd's and Natwest do not allow their BTL mortgage holders to let to those in receipt of DSS/LHA/HB, yet those taxpayers pay for their bailout and continue to pay for their bonuses despite yet more losses.

It will be propped up and is, the same as the banks were. So no one can say, 'That is capitalism,' for capitalism allows poor business to go to the wall. Instead we bail these two sectors out, all of us, to start to panic like they do in Cyprus. Better to hide your money under your person as you sleep and on your person as you walk before they make you pay for the crimes of others. Instead we fear. 'They will take their wealth with them.'

Where will they take it if everyone has to do the same?

We will not find out for fear.

expatinscotland Mon 18-Mar-13 01:59:08

And for all the 'America has problems', yes, they most surely have, but a housing bubble is pretty much no longer among them. They never encouraged individual BTL or absentee landlordism. Many states made this a nightmare with very heavy taxes, quite rightly, as it is very bad for any economy to make a commodity like shelter subject to too much speculation. MOST flat rental there is under the govern of corporation. A corporation is better able to weather market fluctuations.

You want a flat there, you present to the office of the apartment complex or its property manager. That's what happens. The apartment, many, is owned by a business and the running of it to a property managemenet company. First-come, first-served. 'No children' is illegal. If your complex is large enough, a certain percentage of it must be 'Section 8', housing benefit. You go into office, you present your income and identity for credit check. If you know you will not pass you present with guarantor's details or you apply under Section 8. They lie, they discriminate, of course they do, but if you go in there wired and catch them out they can and will be sued to hell.

Leases are standard 9-12 months. Other corps operate for short-term or corp let, I have lived in places, the Oakwood Corporation, that offered such, and standard lease for others. Many will only do 12 months. There's no two-month clause once you sign the lease. In fact, if you want to get out of it, you usually pay a very heavy penalty.

There's little 'rolling'. Your lease is up you either sign another 12 month or you move. You act ghetto and anti-social, three strikes and you are out as you have violated the lease.

It's not perfect, but the UK has a long way to go by comparison.

expatinscotland Mon 18-Mar-13 02:09:20

No stigma, either. Others married to Brits who came here are surprised about that, treated like rubbish by unregulated estate agents little above boyhood for renting. What stupid business sense!

Want2bSupermum Mon 18-Mar-13 02:24:41

expat I can't agree with you more. I was surprised at how strick the rules are for landlords and as a tenant I had good experiences. We lived in Hoboken, NJ and the three places DH and I lived in (before we were married) were all 'rent controlled' where the town set the maximum rental income permitted. It was around 4-5% when property prices were increasing by 20-25%.

We now live in a different township and they are also very strict. If you want to rent your home out it has to be inspected first and they test everything. The township don't want problem tenants as this hurts the community. Poorly maintained properties don't attract the sort of tenant you want as a neighbour.

However, in response to the OP, there is poverty in the UK. The face of poverty isn't what you think it is. From what I have seen there is more poverty than anyone wants to admit to in the suburbs and within young families. I am conservative and think this government have been spineless with helping those who are in need.

expatinscotland Mon 18-Mar-13 02:55:00

Want2be, I am both American and British, as are my children. Many townships and councils in the US rent cap and tax those who rent out as individuals and if you own the property you still had to do state income tax, property tax, your fed taxes were a pain. If you don't have a company covering it because you're definitely coming back in a couple of years, it's usually a big PITA. It is designed to discourage BTL.

You think the US had a problem with sub-prime? Man, you are on the Titanic before it hit the iceberg, thinking she'd never sink! There were mortgage products here that never existed in the US, they were illegal. I had to learn about them as a legal secretary.

Here, you're mostly treated like scum for renting, and males who did not hold property, of which only 10% did, were not granted universal sufferage until 1918.

Things can get very very bad, people, and you are really kidding yourselves if you don't think poverty doesn't exist here, if you've forgotten how it was here even in the 60s, and in a race to the bottom.

I've seen developing nations, lived in them, believe me, it's not a level you want to sink to again.

expatinscotland Mon 18-Mar-13 02:58:21

And you'd be surprised, how swifly a place can sink. Anything, really.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 18-Mar-13 07:07:50

A full time (37.5hr) NMW worker takes home £895 a month. £50 is not a huge amount of money in the context of that monthly pay. It is approx 5% of salary, and that doesn't include benefits or anything else. Are there really huge swathes of the country who have an absolute minimum spend of over 95% of salary every month? Strikes me as way too much of a coincidence that so many people claim their salary EXACTLY matches their minimum outgoings.
zwischenzug
This is quite the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here. For a lot of people it's not a COINCIDENCE that salary exactly matches outgoings, it's more a question of cutting back and budgetting hard to ensure their outgoings don't EXCEED their income. How would those people ever find themselves with a surplus?

Dawndonna Mon 18-Mar-13 07:24:05

Depends on your definition of poverty. Anyway the original point I was responding to was regarding people who go to the foodbank because they've lost their jobs and have a balance of £0 in their account. I've not seen any persuasive arguments that they there is a good reason these sort of people couldn't have saved a small amount so they could at least pay for food and the basics of life until the benefits system kicks in.
Oh do grow up, dearie. You are rude, patronising and living in lala land if you cannot comprehend what is reality to many folk.
As for housing, I do not live in an affluent area, in fact I'm rural, a two bed cottage without a garden here is around £450 a month, and yes, people struggle. That would leave someone with less than £500 per month on NMW. £500 to pay bills, clothe and feed children etc. So, which part of that £500 should they be saving, how often and what should they go without in order to save?

JakeBullet Mon 18-Mar-13 08:01:07

Well said Dawndonna.

Most people using food banks have run out of any surplus they might have had. Anyone smugly saying "they should have saved" needs smothering with their own comfort blanket!

scarlettsmummy2 Tue 19-Mar-13 18:30:52

Totally agree with dawndonna. Anyone that thinks a family can save anything on minimum wage of they have to factor in housing costs is delusional. Totally delusional.

cory Tue 19-Mar-13 18:49:21

Eating cold food is fine if you live in a centrally heated house with sufficient clothing and blankets. Rather less fine if you live in a damp room which you cannot afford to heat.

And if you cannot afford heating, drying clothes also becomes next to impossible, so getting wet whilst walking home from school has consequences which are difficult to imagine if you are not in this position. You won't be able to run a spindryer either (electricity) so the clothing will be hung up in your room, not drying but adding to the damp and cold.

So if you can't even have a hot meal how are you going to keep warm?

I have lived like this for a short time, but I was a healthy young adult with no caring responsibilities and with family who could have bailed me out had I asked: I can't imagine what it would be like to live like this for years, or if you are elderly or a child.

Dh did live in damp and mouldy accommodation for part of his childhood and spent a lot of time in hospital with asthma/bronchitis. This is a common problem in poor families in this climate.

I would have thought that being cold or struggling to breathe because of lack of money qualifies as poverty.

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