AIBU to think that if a midday assistant at school feels it necessary to shout at my 6 yr old, I should have been informed?

(252 Posts)
laluna Fri 15-Mar-13 15:54:38

DS came out of class crying saying he had been yelled at by the MDA and he didn't understand why.

He explained to me that there had been a bit if a falling out in his group of friends and she shouted at them.

If my child does something wrong, I am not precious about him and the situation should be death with accordingly by the person in charge. No issue with that. But AIBU to think that yelling is not really appropriate and if the situation is really that bad, I should be involved?? Am a bit cross and have asked the school to clarify the position.

UnChartered Fri 15-Mar-13 15:57:21

i'd save judgement until i'd found out exactly what happened tbh

Nanny0gg Fri 15-Mar-13 15:57:58

Really?

AuntieStella Fri 15-Mar-13 15:58:46

Asking for clarification is a good way ahead.

Whether the action was indeed shouting (and whether the MDA was nearby or simply had to raise her voice so she could be heard across playground noise), and also exactly what was going on in the group (did the falling out get physical?) are relevant.

ballinacup Fri 15-Mar-13 15:58:59

YABU. She yelled at him, she didn't hit him with a large stick.

Also, I'd be wary of taking the word of a, presumably, primary school aged child at face value.

sounds like she shouted at the group rather than him individually. Maybe she needed to shout to be heard.

Trifle Fri 15-Mar-13 15:59:51

You are being precious, incredibly so.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 15-Mar-13 16:00:14

Did she yell? Did she raise her voice in a firm and unambiguous manner?
Or did she do nothing like that, but he just doesn't like being in trouble and misinterpreted her?
He's 6. You need more information than that which he can give you.

kim147 Fri 15-Mar-13 16:00:45

Sometimes children get shouting and being told off firmly confused. Children at school get told off all the time and if we had to tell the parent each time, it would be very busy after school.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 15-Mar-13 16:00:49

Shouting/projecting. There is a difference.

nethunsreject Fri 15-Mar-13 16:01:29

Oh dear lord, really?

Floralnomad Fri 15-Mar-13 16:01:29

To answer the actual question : no I don't think you should be informed if a midday supervisor shouts at your child . Do you feel the need to be told if a teacher shouts at him?

GloriaPritchett Fri 15-Mar-13 16:01:32

Yes, they should have immediately phoned, emailed and sent out a red alert to track you down.

Stop being dramatic!

WorraLiberty Fri 15-Mar-13 16:01:44

It's obviously not important enough to mention to you

It was dealt with by the MDA, so job done.

Sometimes kids need yelling at and it can be quite effective.

Buzzardbird Fri 15-Mar-13 16:02:03

I think "death" might be a little extreme? grin

Wouldn't be too sure she wasn't just making herself heard over the racket in the playground tbh.

laluna Fri 15-Mar-13 16:02:20

His sister aged 11 and her friend of the same age said she shouted at him. That is why I sort to gain further info.

Booyhoo Fri 15-Mar-13 16:03:04

you (and we if you want a verdict from us) need more info.

AmberLeaf Fri 15-Mar-13 16:03:19

Check facts about what happened first, as it was a large group, there may have been a lot of noise, she may have had to raise her voice to be heard.

Booyhoo Fri 15-Mar-13 16:04:27

xpost

and it is 'sought'

Hopasholic Fri 15-Mar-13 16:04:28

YABU. It's highly likely that the only way the MDA could make herself heard in a playground was to yell. A quiet word is not much use is it? We all feel protective of our kids but she has a job to do and yours isn't the only DC in the playground.

WorraLiberty Fri 15-Mar-13 16:04:32

Your 6yr old is old enough to explain his version of events to you.

Why don't you ask him exactly what happened?

Clawdy Fri 15-Mar-13 16:05:17

Sounds like a lot of fuss over nothing. Kids often misbehave at lunch time and MDAs often tell 'em off,sometimes loudly. Part of school life.

Floggingmolly Fri 15-Mar-13 16:05:57

I think you've "sort" to gain further info in the wrong place. None of us were there.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 15-Mar-13 16:06:50

Go and ask the class teacher to find out exactly what happened.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 15-Mar-13 16:07:18

YABU.

Megatron Fri 15-Mar-13 16:08:28

Oh FFS. What a load of fuss about nothing.

Pancakeflipper Fri 15-Mar-13 16:09:02

If my. H

CabbageLeaves Fri 15-Mar-13 16:09:28

I would never work in a school....

Nanny0gg Fri 15-Mar-13 16:10:03

If you think you need to be informed if a member of school staff shouts at your child, then you are in for a long, long road.

And 'not precious'? Much...

Pa ha ha! Really your reaction is so over the top!

FriskyMare Fri 15-Mar-13 16:10:33

He came out of class crying because he was shouted at at lunchtime confused hmm

Dear Lord.

SashaSashays Fri 15-Mar-13 16:11:18

YABU she only shouted at him.

School staff shout, be it teachers, assistants, sports coaches etc

Is this news to you?

If you expect to be alerted every time this happens you are being very unrealistic.

soverylucky Fri 15-Mar-13 16:11:28

Ok - I wasn't there but I think YABU and tbh I am a bit fed up of parents having a problem with a teacher, mid-day assistant etc telling their child off.
Perhaps your son was being naughty because he knows that mum always takes his side and assumes that the fault lies elsewhere?

CabbageLeaves Fri 15-Mar-13 16:11:31

Roughly what do we think the breakdown of time is spent on enquiries of this nature where staff brutality was involved and where child misbehaviour is the problem...

Brutality 0.0000001 %
Misbehaviour 99.9999999%

WorraLiberty Fri 15-Mar-13 16:11:36

I was wondering too why he was crying hours after the event?

Pancakeflipper Fri 15-Mar-13 16:12:03

Oops attempt no. 2

If my child and his mates were up to something deserving of a telling off from a MDA, I would be grateful for the MDA not standing any nonsense and ensuring decent behaviour. I cannot be with my children 24hrs and I have no issue with them being pulled into line by other appropriate trusted adults.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 15-Mar-13 16:12:19

YABU!

If you mean, though, 'should I have been told about this situation in which ds was obviously out of order and this resulted in quite a telling off', then that's another thing. If you mean 'should I have been fore-warned that he'd been shouted at (and that may well not be the way the MDS would recount the situation), YABU.

TheChaoGoesMu Fri 15-Mar-13 16:12:21

I think you need to find out what happened first before passing judgement.

greenfolder Fri 15-Mar-13 16:12:25

i could only be a mid day assistant if a cattle prod came as part of the uniform.

i assume that if the mda shouted, it was to make herself heard, probably with good reason. be grateful that the school do not see it as necessary to discuss every minor skirmish with you.

malteserzz Fri 15-Mar-13 16:12:31

No one on here can tell you whether YABU or not without knowing all the facts , you need to ask at school what it was all about

exoticfruits Fri 15-Mar-13 16:15:22

She was in charge, she dealt with it-I would just let it go.
You can go into school and find out what really happened, but I bet it was something and nothing.

LeeCoakley Fri 15-Mar-13 16:16:47

'YABU. She yelled at him, she didn't hit him with a large stick.'

Exactly.

ElliesWellies Fri 15-Mar-13 16:18:40

What do you mean, you should be involved? The assistant had to deal with the situation at the time. Should she have stopped to phone you right in the middle?

I think that if there was a pattern of her shouting and your son not being able to tell you what he had done wrong, you would be right to speak to the school. But in this isolated instance, well, it's part of going to school. Sometimes kids play up, sometimes staff have to tell them off. It is a learning curve for your son.

Pancakeflipper Fri 15-Mar-13 16:19:12

I now think you need to find out for what reason the MDA had to shout. I am intrigued.
My understanding of MDA's is that they want a happy contented playground and they honestly don't go stomping around playgrounds looking at small children to yell at and make cry for the rest of the day.

pigletmania Fri 15-Mar-13 16:19:48

Sounds like fuss over nothing. You said she shouted at the group not rapt him personally, tey might have been loud and not able to hear what she was saying. You need to see a teacher to clarify what happened not take children at face value

LeeCoakley Fri 15-Mar-13 16:20:46

Oh, and I can practically guarantee it won't have even been reported back to the teacher. There isn't enough hours in the day for the MDA and CT to do a post-mortem on every yelling incident.

IsabelleRinging Fri 15-Mar-13 16:20:56

Bloody Hell!! You think schools should inform parents every time a member of staff raises their voice? get real. YABU!

YouTheCat Fri 15-Mar-13 16:22:28

I've been covering for dinners for a few weeks and it is so unbelievably loud on the playground.

Also MDAs do not have time to go round calmly talking individually to children. There are usually way too few on the yard and a load of children to supervise.

samuelwhiskers Fri 15-Mar-13 16:22:57

Blimey, if you are upset about an assistant "shouting" at your child at this age, goodness knows how you are going to cope over the next 10 years. YABU. Total over reaction on your part.

LegArmpits Fri 15-Mar-13 16:23:11

Actual LOL.

nenevomito Fri 15-Mar-13 16:24:55

Mountain. Molehill.

Last time I checked supervisors don't shout and children for no reason at all.

Park it up and move on.

kim147 Fri 15-Mar-13 16:26:28

I'll agree though that some MDAs can be shouty and in your face - rather than being calm when explaining things.

I can remember the MDA at my old school who seemed to jump in and shout at a child when there was no need to. I've also seen it happen on supply a lot.

That was real shouting - in your face shouting and almost quite aggressive. All depends on the context it took place in.

cumfy Fri 15-Mar-13 16:28:10

Did all the children cry ?

notso Fri 15-Mar-13 16:29:17

OP I do feel sorry for your son, my 8yo got mistakenly sent off to the headteachers office by the LTS as a group of boys he was near were fighting, and DS was mortified. He burst into tears when he got home.

However YABU to think they should have contacted you or done something more.

Viviennemary Fri 15-Mar-13 16:29:22

A child got shouted at. Shock horror. Who'd work in a school these days.

MammaMedusa Fri 15-Mar-13 16:30:51

Ask his sister if she always shouts or only when it is necessary (needs prompt action to stop someone getting hurt, has already tried softly softly and it hasn't worked, is across the playground, is in a loud lunch hall...).

noclue2000 Fri 15-Mar-13 16:31:20

pah ha ha. thats all.

Booyhoo Fri 15-Mar-13 16:31:40

i'm just trying to imagine the scene of 4/5/6/7 sets of parents being called up and informed the the MDA had to tell off their child at lunch time. what school has time for that? and really, what parent wants that? i could imagine if i got that call - "er, ok. thanks" confused

peppertree Fri 15-Mar-13 16:31:50

YABPrecious

Bloody hell what's wrong with a bit of shouting? Aren't school staff allowed to shout anymore?

exoticfruits Fri 15-Mar-13 16:35:01

The parent's job is to help the child deal with that sort of thing (he will get far worse!)
You can't have control of every incident. If I saw your child out, as a member of the public, I might well tell him off if he was doing something he shouldn't and there is nothing you can do about it!
I certainly wouldn't be a midday supervisor if parents were going to hold inquests on trivial incidents in the playground. She couldn't have done anything more than shout -if you have been in a school playground you would know the noise level you have to rise above. Maybe it was unfair but I would just explain that maybe she got it wrong and he could go and have a word with her the next day and explain.
It can't have been important or there would have been repercussions in school.

Gales Fri 15-Mar-13 16:39:24

Really, you think parents should be advised every time it's necessary for a member of school staff to raise their voice? I don't think the country has the money to pay the phone bills.

I do think him crying about it several hours later is an issue. Does he usually hold onto things for so long?

intheshed Fri 15-Mar-13 16:54:52

"there had been a bit of a falling out in his group of friends" hmm

In other words he was told off for fighting.

YouTheCat Fri 15-Mar-13 16:57:54

It's for the teachers to sort out the ins and outs of fallings out (or more often the TAs). MDAs are too busy stopping people's little bundles from hurling themselves from play equipment and killing each other.

Think Lord of the Flies, only more violent, and that's your average playground at lunchtime.

drjohnsonscat Fri 15-Mar-13 17:01:58

Oh Lordy. I've just realised that our late lamented dinner lady, Mrs B, should have been on the phone to my mum every single day to tell her that she'd shouted at me and as she didn't, I'm completely neurotic and screwed up.

Oh no. Wait. I'm fine grin

Teachers get grumpy. Children get shouted at. I've heard tell that some parents even shout at their children and sometimes they aren't even being reasonable. I think there should be a public inquiry.

FFS. really?

BarbarianMum Fri 15-Mar-13 17:07:22

If he'd been crying all afternoon I would expect his teacher to have spoken to you.

You could do a post mortem on this but tbh I'd advise you to assume it has been dealt with, give him a hug and enjoy your weekend.

Acandlelitshadow Fri 15-Mar-13 17:09:19

You've asked the school to clarify?

Congrats. You've just become that parent grin

CherylTrole Sat 16-Mar-13 16:14:53

Where is the OP?! Hmmmm weird post OP. Elaborate please if you will?

Ilovesunflowers Sat 16-Mar-13 16:27:14

Having read this post I have just thanked my lucky stars that I no longer teach!
I think you are setting your son up for failure if you overreact like this everytime he is told off. He was still crying at the end of the day? Really? Sounds like he is majorly oversensitive and you need to help him gain some confidence.

exoticfruits Sat 16-Mar-13 16:29:48

You certainly won't get lunchtime assistants - not on the pay they get. If I was one and had parents getting uptight about petty incidents I would just hand my notice in - I could earn more in a supermarket shift.

Startail Sat 16-Mar-13 16:33:22

YABridiculous.

Some lunch time supervisors can be a bit brisk, I grant you, but honestly.

thegreylady Sat 16-Mar-13 16:34:14

I think you are being silly and a bit precious. in the playground she is supervising lots of children running and yelling-maybe she observed the 'falling out' and shouted something like,'Be careful x and y play nicely!'
Please dont involve the school it's not fair on the MDA.

Pandemoniaa Sat 16-Mar-13 16:39:41

If ever one needed evidence as to why it can be difficult to recruit lunchtime assistants this thread provides everything you need. What a ridiculous mountain out of a molehill. I'm also astonished that your child would still be bawling his eyes out so many hours after the event. Was he, perhaps, expecting you to receive a less than favourable report about his earlier behaviour?
hmm

crashdoll Sat 16-Mar-13 16:42:45

Your child got shouted/told off at and you thought you should know, really?! If schools spent time telling parents every time they told off or raised a voice at a child, they'd be there all week!

Salmotrutta Sat 16-Mar-13 16:50:43

YABU to even be giving this head-space.

Shouting (or raised voices anyway) happens quite frequently in school. Particularly secondary. I suspect you will be very busy for the next few years... hmm

YABVVU for all the reasons given above. And also because you have to trust the school to discipline your child during school time.

hopefloats Sat 16-Mar-13 17:20:22

Sounds like he was busted doing something naughty so turned on the waterworks in case you had already been told about his misbehaviour. YABU.

redskyatnight Sat 16-Mar-13 17:26:18

When DD was in Y1 (so 6) she always used to come home and complain that the teacher-who-covered-PPA was always shouting at her. As DD is a real goody-good girl I thought this was odd.

It turned out that said teacher was not shouting at all, but merely had a rather loud and assertive voice.

lljkk Sat 16-Mar-13 17:59:51

I kind of get what OP is saying, not completely U, but I would think if my 6yo came out crying about it that they were actually tired & upset about something else that happened in the previous 10 minutes.

If he came out of school crying it was either one of these three scenarios:
1. He had spent all afternoon crying because he was shouted at during lunch. In which case I would have expected the teacher to talk to you at pick up time.
2. He began to cry when he saw you because perhaps he was worried school had called you to say he had been involved in a playground kerfuffle at lunch and was anticipating another discussion / telling off, this time from you.
3. He was tired and overemotional as he is only young and was crying due to to this but is not old enough to verbalise this yet so told you he was crying because of the minor incident at lunchtime as he felt he ought to give an explanation for his tears.

My money is on scenario 3. smile

Coconutty Sat 16-Mar-13 18:11:57

Eek, yes you have overreacted.

I reckon he saw you after school and started to cry as he thought he may be in trouble for fighting - kids often do this when they see their parents if they;ve been up to mischief. I think it's to get the parent onside IYSWIM.

Let it go, really.

TattyDevine Sat 16-Mar-13 18:12:12

YABU. Tell him to suck it up or behave himself. Preferably both.

bangwhizz Sat 16-Mar-13 18:12:59

You know I think all parents should spend a few days volunteering in their child's school to see what the reality of working and coping with scores of children is, without allowing anarchy to descend!

dikkertjedap Sat 16-Mar-13 18:17:12

not being precious hmm

Best to speak to his teacher if it really is a big issue for you.

The best message you could give your son is to tell him not to mess around during lunch time. In large schools, up to almost seven hundred kids might need to eat in a 1 hour slot, there really is no time for mucking about.

LaQueen Sat 16-Mar-13 18:17:44

Children larking around in the playground, and being shouted out by a teacher/MDA...feck me, what is the world coming to.. [nips off thread, so she can burst out laughing]

lockets Sat 16-Mar-13 18:18:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mumandboys123 Sat 16-Mar-13 18:25:35

if I had to speak to the parents every time I had a need to raise my voice, give someone 'the look' or deal with an unpleasant incident, I wouldn't have time to teach.

yousankmybattleship Sat 16-Mar-13 18:33:13

A mid day supervisor shouted at children who were messing around? Have the Daily Mail been informed? Time for sad face pics I think. Especially as you weren't phoned/faxed/telegramed immediately to inform you about the incident. The bastards.

Leaverightnow Sat 16-Mar-13 20:25:27

Get a life. She probably had to shout to b heard across the yard!

TroublesomeEx Sat 16-Mar-13 20:41:01

If people working in schools had to report back to parents every time their children got told off, there wouldn't be time for anything else!

Hold on, are you one of these "my child will never be told no/hear a raised voice" parents?

TattyDevine Sat 16-Mar-13 20:45:20

If so, homeschool. Give it 5 days before you crack grin

Fakebook Sat 16-Mar-13 20:53:50

Lets all wrap our little sproglings up in cotton wool incase anyone dares to tell them off or shout at them for being naughty. hmm.

changeforthebetter Sat 16-Mar-13 20:54:46

Jesus wept! I am the mother of two sensitive souls but if they were "shouted at" at school, then I would assume it was because the adult was trying to make themselves heard. Some Y7s accused me of shouting at them recently. Aww diddums, I raised my voice to calm them down because Y11s were doing Controlled Assessments next door while they got over excited during group work. Sometimes kids need to just STF and realise they are not the centre of the universe.

Lovelygoldboots Sat 16-Mar-13 21:06:42

I am a MDS. I take the job very seriously as do my colleagues. It's the most intense amount of work packed into a small period of the day. You wouldnt do the job unless you cared about the kids. It certainly isn't financially worth much. Yabvu.

MidniteScribbler Sat 16-Mar-13 21:07:42

Oh dear god. Congratulations OP, you've just become the laughing stock of the staff room.

thebody Sat 16-Mar-13 21:13:50

Ha ha ha ha ha. Seriously op are you mental?

If I informed a patent every time I raised my voice at a child then I would probably not have classroom time.

Get a fucking grip and for goodness sake don't always take your kids side or critisise authority figures who discipline him when he needs it.

That way lies disaster.

kennyp Sat 16-Mar-13 22:50:21

I was a mid day and had to shout on occasion ... Usually a "stand still" or "year three packed lunches" .....

If you are upset did you ask the teacher what happened, if she was made aware? I can understand that you are concerned/worried about your child smile. Hope you get an answer of some description.

BackforGood Sat 16-Mar-13 23:07:02

It's a joke, right ?
April Fools Day been moved forwards a bit?

I am not precious about him ...... really? ? ? ?

exoticfruits Sat 16-Mar-13 23:11:59

She hasn't come back- probably won't- but hopefully got the message.

kim147 Sat 16-Mar-13 23:17:31

Going against the flow slightly, I have seen MDAs jump in with both feet and get annoyed with a child for being somewhere / doing something they think they should not be doing. But the children have had my permission so I have had to explain to the MDA that it's ok.

Mind you, I know a range of school staff who seem to get very upset with pupils without trying to find out the facts first and this does involve shouting when there's no need to shout.

LaQueen Sun 17-Mar-13 09:26:05

Clearly the OP's little boy had been naughty at break time, hence him being shouted at by the MDA...at home time, he frets that maybe, somehow, someone will tell his Mum and so in time-honoured fashion he decides to start crying as soon as he sees her...that way to manipulate her, and get her sympathy (his scheme worked perfectly, didn't it).

I just simply can't believe his Mum is so utterly gullible? I adore my DDs, but they have never yet, fooled me for one single second.

simplesusan Sun 17-Mar-13 10:47:28

I agree with LaQueen.
I am also amused at parents who don't think it appropriate for an authority figure to raise their voice.
Perhaps because talking in a nice sweet tone doesn't have any effect.

Nanny0gg Sun 17-Mar-13 10:54:00

Going against the flow slightly, I have seen MDAs jump in with both feet and get annoyed with a child for being somewhere / doing something they think they should not be doing. But the children have had my permission so I have had to explain to the MDA that it's ok.
Maybe that should have been explained to the MDA first so that they didn't look like they were being overridden by you? The children need to think you're a team.

If our MDAs didn't shout, they'd never be heard in the playground noise. I walked past the school at lunchtime this week and the noise was astonishing.

LaQueen Sun 17-Mar-13 13:17:38

It actually gives me quite a lot of comfort to think of all these ickle children, being wrapped in cotton-wool, by parents who wouldn't even give them a stern glare, and who would go striding into school at even so much as a hint that their PFB had been mildly reprimanded...

Our DDs have been raised in a much more rufty-tufty environment, where they've learned to roll with the punches, and have parents who don't mollycoddle them...which means they're going to slice through all their nampy-pamby peers, like a hot knife through butter smile

complexnumber Sun 17-Mar-13 13:23:46

Our DDs have been raised in a much more rufty-tufty environment, where they've learned to roll with the punches, and have parents who don't mollycoddle them...which means they're going to slice through all their nampy-pamby peers, like a hot knife through butter

What exactly does "to slice through all their nampy-pamby peers, like a hot knife through butter" mean?

It sounds rather awful to be frank.

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 13:26:53

In my experience a gentle 'excuse me dear but would you mind not ......' would be easily ignored, whereas the friend who was being throttled might prefer a shout of ' let go of him NOW' and is likely to get a result.

LaQueen Sun 17-Mar-13 13:27:03

complex it means that while their namby-pamby peers are bleating in the corner about how unfair something is, and are shell-shocked that someone has actually disagreed/challenged them...my DDs will have taken it on the chin, shrugged it off, and carried on onwards and upwards smile

complexnumber Sun 17-Mar-13 13:38:49

I hope that works out for you and your DD's, LaQueen. Along with all the other kids in the classroom.

hmm

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 13:41:29

It works if the parents help them to cope with someone telling them off-rather than trying to stop the telling off.

LaQueen Sun 17-Mar-13 13:49:25

It has already been shown to work complex - my DDs don't bother turning on the waterworks, hoping to earn my sympathy, when they know they've been naughty, and have been rightly told off by a teacher.

Neither do they bother bleating how unfair it is, and sulking, and tantruming, just because a teacher has challenged them and rightly reprimanded them.

They've learned to just get on with it, toe-the-line, and accept a (justified) telling off with good grace.

Madlizzy Sun 17-Mar-13 13:50:56

I worked as a MDA and used to project my voice a LOT, either to break up a fight, stop kids from messing with something they shouldn't, doing something dangerous or to get them to sit down in the dinner hall as it's bloody loud. I have also raised my voice at children who have had a fight and told them very firmly that they were out of order. Guess what? The kids loved me and didn't want me to leave. They knew their boundaries with me and that I'd be fair. You need to toughen up on this, I'd have been on the phone around 30 times a day if I had to phone for every child I'd shouted to/at.

I once brought half the playground to a halt with a shout. Ds3, who was about 3.5 at the time, had found the newly planted flower boxes in the playground, and was about to uproot one. I could have gone across and stopped him, but by then he would have uprooted several of the plants, so I shouted, "STOP THAT NOW!!" in my most stentorian tones. Even with the playground full of children and parents (it was before school started, and the playground was full, at least half the people there stopped dead in their tracks and looked round. And that was the end of it. Ds3 did not uproot any plants, the rest of the children and parents carried on with what they were doing, and no-one cried.

I was a beautiful mixture of blush and [proud]. grin

On a serious note, I agree with LaQueen and exoticfruits. It is not the end of the world if a child gets shouted at - and sometimes it is the best way to deal with a situation before it gets worse, and it is better if a child can deal with what I would call a normal shouting-at - ie. one that was justified by the behaviour at the time and that stops the behaviour in its tracks. Of course this does not mean it is OK to shout at children when there are other, better options available, and when it is not justified. But if a child can cope with the normal shouting-at, then you know that, if they complain about being shouted at, then you should investigate.

I don't think I am making much sense - I hope others can understand what I am getting at better than I can. blush

SugarPasteGreyhound Sun 17-Mar-13 13:52:48

Laqueen has a point. my workplace is filled every year with graduates who cannot cope with constructive criticism, improvement feedback and being the junior in the team - and therefore not the centre of the universe. At least 50% don't last the probationary period. thankfully we do get bright, capable graduates who are prepared to muck in and have the self awareness to realise that you aren't going to be promoted to MD in your second week, that the way to react to 360 degree feedback is not to sulk and then get your mum to call in sick for you hmm

by encouraging a little prince/princess complex you aren't doing your child any favours. not least when they are older and in the real world, where kids who have learnt to stand on their own 2 feet and can take criticism on the chin, will have the advantage.

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 13:59:13

When you have a 5 yr old lying on the ground, screaming with pain, while another 5 yr old stamps on his hand, you need to do something quick -like 'stop that this minute!' bellowed from across the playground. I reported that one to the Head who dealt with it further; but there is many a case where you might bellow 'stop that this minute!' followed by a 'what do you think you are doing' etc that would then be sorted and forgotten. I can only assume that OP's DC burst into tears because he thought it would have been something to have been taken further and he was getting in first for the sympathy vote! (which he got).

LaQueen Sun 17-Mar-13 14:09:45

Sugar DH has employed quite a few graduates, in the 20 years of running his own company.

AS you say, there are the ones who roll with the punches, can take constructive criticism, and who are sensible enough to realise that you need to play the long game, and that no people aren't going to stroke your hair, and make you department head after 6 weeks...

And, there are the ones who get tearful at their first appraisal, baulk at making the coffee, and who can't understand why they can't take unearned annual leave to go to a festival, last minute...and go home in tears, and get their enraged parent to phone DH taking him to task for not letting their PFB take a long weekend

DH doesn't tend to keep those sort of graduates for very long...

Salmotrutta Sun 17-Mar-13 14:19:06

I feel quite sorry for youngsters whose parents fight all their battles for them.

Obviously if there is genuine unfairness/ injustice a parent can be a support but if parents intervene at the drop of a hat, question all attempts at discipline by teachers, do everything for their DCs etc. then they haven't equipped them to deal with disappointment or the real world.

Can I ask, LeQueen, how your DH responds to enraged parents (of adults, no less shock phoning him to take him to task?

I hope he tells them straight... ?

Salmotrutta Sun 17-Mar-13 14:19:54

Sorry, missing bracket there!!

SugarPasteGreyhound Sun 17-Mar-13 15:00:40

if he's anything like my boss, he'll respond along the lines of "you are ringing on behalf of your 22 y/o ds/dd, to speak to me, as his/her employer?!" with the appropriate disbelieving tone of voice.

Salmotrutta Sun 17-Mar-13 15:04:11

grin - that's probably the strategy I'd adopt Sugar if I was in that situation!

And I'd probably enjoy getting the tone just right too grin

SugarPasteGreyhound Sun 17-Mar-13 15:35:35

One of two things then happens; parent goes away knowing that them calling is not a good idea, graduate realises that people think they are a joke, so gets their head down and gets on with it at which point their working life improves.

Or

Parents can't believe how harsh boss us to their little prince/ss, graduate continues taking the piss and gets their marching orders.

What continues to surprise me us how genuinely shocked they are when they're told theory have failed the probationary period. Wandering in late, buggering off early, refusing to do 'boring' jobs and expecting to be spoon fed everything.

One girl told me in no uncertain terms that just because she was a new graduate and this was her first job, didn't mean that she would be happy to do any photocopying and filing. She looked horrified when I pointed out that at over a decade older than her, with 10 years' experience in my field and several levels of seniority I still do my own copying and filing...

SugarPasteGreyhound Sun 17-Mar-13 15:39:28

It pisses me off as it's a tough market at the moment and there are kids out there who are grafters and who will work hard and go far. So I find it particularly frustrating when a recruit is lazy and immature as I would far rather mentor someone who appreciates it - especially given that it's extra work training someone.

Can you tell it's a subject close to my heart?!

I can see that it means a lot to you, SugarPasteGreyhound - but I am very sensitive to these things, and can read between the cool and unemotional lines of your posts. winkgrin

I don't think any of my dses are little princes or shy of hard graft, and I will not be ringing their employers to complain that my little genius shouldn't be doing the filing to making the coffee, he should be running the company! And if you have to give them a flea in their ear about poor time keeping or attitude, and they are foolish enough to come to me for sympathy, they will get a flea in the other ear from me!

SugarPasteGreyhound Sun 17-Mar-13 16:10:10

grin Lol, it's a tender subject the mo as we have one last work currently. Annoyingly there is a work experience lad who is very keen to work in our dept and would be perfect, but we can't recruit until Mr lazybones has been all the way through the management processes for under performing staff.

LaQueen Sun 17-Mar-13 16:20:57

Yep, pretty similar to Sugar's boss...as in, 'Sorry, let me get this straight, you are calling me, to tell me I am being unfair not letting your 23 year old daughter take time off to go, last minute, to a festival, when she's only been in the job 2.5 weeks, and we're on a print deadline...? Mrs XYZ, let me clarify for you, the terms of your DD's employment within my company, so that we don't need to ever have this conversation again...'

LaQueen Sun 17-Mar-13 16:31:24

Sugar DH employed a new graduate who baulked at doing such menial tasks as keeping DH's diary, doing his filing every night, and making him a morning coffee (DH is the company director, by the way).

After the second week, she threw a hissy fit, stamped her little feet and declared hotly that she hadn't spent 3 years at university, just to end up keeping someone's diary and making coffee

DH cooly pointed out, that he had also spent 3 years at university, and had spent the last 20 years building his company - and that if she didn't want to keep his diary, make coffee and learn the ropes - then with one phone call to the recruitment agency he could have 12 graduates lined up for interview, who would be more than willing to do so...

She went very quiet, went and cried a bit in the loo...didn't come back on the Monday. No great loss.

LaQueen, keeping the boss's diary isn't a menial task, it's part of all the organising and stuff. I may not be a grauduate, but I have certainly kept a boss's diary in the past..., along with the filing, coffee making, managing junior staff, finance and data input, etc grin

Wonder whether your graduate still thinks she's better than diary keeping and filing...

exoticfruits Sun 17-Mar-13 22:27:13

The graduate will no doubt find that she is doing most other graduates are doing- working in department stores and coffee shops.

OnwardBound Sun 17-Mar-13 23:54:33

I am a little surprised that so many here are falling about laughing and smugly declaring the marvellous resilience of their own offspring hmm

Is it not possible that maybe, just maybe, OPs child was unfairly treated and spoken to harshly in a way which wasn't warranted?

I remember a thread not too long ago where posters were describing their unhappy experiences at the hands of their own teachers in childhood. Unfortunately not all teachers act professionally or reasonably or compassionately, at all times. It then actually isn't fair or right to always uncritically believe the adult who holds the authority over your child due to fear of being labelled "that parent" in the staffroom.

OP you know your child best. If you feel this is out of character for your son or you wonder if his version of events might actually be correct you do indeed owe it to him to speak to the school on his behalf, if only to seek clarification.
You don't have to go in all guns blazing, but rather have a calm and rational discussion with your son's teacher.

I think this sort of approach might be more beneficial to your son's wellbeing in the long term [even if you discover his version of events was a fabrication] rather than an automatic dismissal and belittling.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 07:55:42

That is life Outwardbound - far worse will happen than getting shouted at by a lunchtime assistant. The parent should help the child deal with it and get over it. It was nothing important otherwise the teacher and/or Head would have been involved and OP informed.
Children need to deal with unpleasant people. As a member of the public I could shout at OP's DC and I could be totally unfair. There is nothing that OP could do if I haven't touched the child- other than have a slanging match with me. From the DCs point of view she would be better to walk away and just explain that there are some mad people in the world and to ignore!

If the school phoned me to tell me that a MDA had shouted at my child I would wonder why the actual fuck they were phoning me for?

But I am, according to some, a horrible parent. Because when my DCs get into trouble at school, and get punished, I do not go flying to the school demanding to know why precious mini tantrums was told off.
Because, after hearing the story, I generally find that they were misbehaving. And we dealt with.

They do not bother to cry every time they are told off as it has no effect on me, if you are told off for talking, or get detention for not having homework/PE kit, clearly you deserve it.
And if you don't want it to happen again, don't do it again.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 08:08:39

I think you would start an AIBU Tantrums with 'the school phoned me because DC was shouted at in the playground- what the xxxx am I supposed to do!'

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 08:57:33

exotic most probably...she was too good to keep DH's diary...I wonder if she thinks she's too good to be asking Do you want sprinkles on that? grin

cory Mon 18-Mar-13 09:05:50

Surely there is a difference between thinking that ongoing problems between a teacher and a pupil need to be resolved and thinking that every single incident of a child being told off should be reported back to the parent?

What kind of administrative staff would a school need to employ to put this in practice?

And how much good would it do a child to have every single incident treated as of major importance? Wouldn't that be reinforcing the idea that being told off is a terrible, terrible thing?

exotic I would do exactly that grin

I have 3 DCs, if the schools phoned me every time one of them were shouted at, they would never be off the phone.

I don't need to know, tbh.

Feminine Mon 18-Mar-13 09:23:23

What a weird boasting thread this turned out to be!

confused

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 18-Mar-13 09:28:34

Yes, it's odd, isn't it!

I wonder what will happen with the OP, anyway. If I were her, and I really felt I needed to know, I'd be very much making sure I phrased this as 'it sounds as though there was an incident on Friday where DS was behaving badly, and I'm not quite sure what he was doing, but is there anything I should be aware of so that I can discuss this with him?'. As opposed to 'MDA SHOUTED AT MY CHILD WHY WASN'T I TOLD'.

BabyMakesTheBellyGoRound Mon 18-Mar-13 09:38:36

Dh currently has a recent graduate working for him. He will not be kept on after probationary period because of his aversion to actual work. I think he was under the impression that you graduate and walk into a job with managerial salery. This will be another in a long line of "Sorry,I don't think you are suited to this area of work".

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 10:03:15

I wonder if these graduates live in the real world! They don't seem to understand that they are incredibly lucky to be starting on the career path while most are washing up in restaurant kitchens or volunteering.

MoYerBoat Mon 18-Mar-13 11:13:38

Don't believe for one moment that LaQ's DH has the parents of his employees ringing to complain if he won't give them time off for a festival hmm I know you like to spin a good yarn, LaQ, but you do get carried away sometimes with your own whimsy smile And why can't he get his own coffee - my DH is a company director too and wouldn't dream of demanding someone do that for him!

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 11:24:53

I believe her entirely-you only have to read MN for examples-you can find them every day. You have to be prepared to start at the bottom-people at the bottom make coffee without making it an issue.
I get very upset watching DS go off to interviews looking all smart, all clued up having done his homework, come back enthusiastic that it all went well (or cast down if it didn't) and then wait and wait for a result, to just get an email saying he didn't get it. As his mother I would love to phone them up and tell them how brilliant he would be if they gave him a chance-BUT -I know that I can't possibly!!! He has to do it all on his own. Just as well he started aged 6yrs by coping with the odd dinner lady shouting at him, without his mother going in to find out whether it was justified!

MoYerBoat Mon 18-Mar-13 11:27:22

Nope - company director can make his/her own coffee.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 11:34:11

Of course they can-but if you are a graduate in today's job market you would be particularly stupid to tell them so! I really don't think that people realise that you can have a good degree from Oxford and be working as a sales assistant in M&S these days.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 11:36:31

Lots of graduates are not only making the coffee-they are doing it without any pay because they are so desperate to get a foot in the door-and free internships are one way.

Scholes34 Mon 18-Mar-13 12:19:43

Of course the graduate can get the MD a coffee, no doubt they'll be wanting a drink for themselves at the same time too. Making coffee for each other is what happens in an office environment.

Admin staff need to be particularly good at multi-tasking. I remember taking minutes in my boss's meetings and being sent out to make more coffee whilst the meeting continued. I just had to be resilient enough to ask my boss to fill in the gaps for when I'd gone out to get the coffee. I've also in the past put a major report on fraud in the organisation to bed and then gone to do the washing up.

Didn't mind making the coffee, as I made it best and had first choice on the biscuits to put out.

Anyway, OP, your DS needs to understand that some people are quite shouty - out Akela was - and that sometimes you deserve being shouted at and that sometimes the person in charge has had to make a quick decision and they might not always identify the culprits correctly. If it's the former, accept you were being naughty and avoid behaving like that in future, and if it's the latter, don't hang out with naughty people.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 13:08:01

Those that get on are the ones prepared to make the effort.I remember going to a talk by someone who had gone very high in his career (he went to university in 1950s) and he got the job because he was prepared to start at the very bottom and work through all departments- and then he had a thorough knowledge of the whole business-the other candidates thought they should start at a higher level. It is much better for all if MDs have had their stint of making the coffee IMO.

Sparklyboots Mon 18-Mar-13 13:13:53

If my child came out of school crying, I'd want to understand why. I would also recognise that he may not have told the whole story or he may be 'overreacting' or whatever. But if a situation came up at school in which he was overwhelmed for whatever reason, I'd want to know what it was so that he and I could work out ways for him to handle future similar situations for himself. Obviously, OP's DS felt overwhelmed and that warrants investigation so she and he can work out together how he will respond in future situations, or learn to recognise whether or not he should take so personally the 'shouting,' or work out strategies for resilience if he is being unfairly treated, or see where he went wrong if it was all justified. None of that is about mollycoddling him but preparing him well for the future. I think it's always important to treat a DC's perspective seriously while acknowledging that he's got the wrong end of the stick - in this case, he may have misinterpreted what being shouted at implies (usually it is that the other person is very cross, rather than they hate you or you are irremediably awful). I think it would be proper to help him understand that rather than simply brush his upset off as childish, unwarranted, attention-seeking or stupid.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 13:17:22

Mo I can assure it happened (sadly) and I think I've mentioned it a few times on MN over the years.

As for coffee...of course DH could (and does) make his own coffee, he even makes it for his staff, on occasion, though there's usually a 45 minute delay between him offering to make a drink and actually producing one grin

But, this girl felt that making coffee for DH, or other senior staff (or any staff to be honest) was beneath her...she was perfectly happy to put her order in with other staff though, when they were going to the sandwich shop hmm

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 13:23:01

I agree exotic graduates are ten a penny, nowadays, and DH isn't remotely impressed just because someone has a degree.

He has a degree himself...so what? As far as he's concerned they learn the job from the bottom up. He has no time for hissy princesses, or princes.

BuddyButters Mon 18-Mar-13 13:29:15

I'm generally one of the first to call bullshit when I read posts that are clearly made up, or at least heavily embellished. However LaQueens post didn't sound at all unbelievable. I can well imagine this happening. I can also think of several parent/child combos likely to do it in years to come.

Have to admit I'm mostly blisteringly unsympathetic when it comes to stories about moany MDAs/teachers. My attitude is generally "Oh well. These things happen. Sometimes adults get it wrong but mostly they don't and if you keep your nose clean you'll be fine and one day they might even get it wrong in your favour" :D

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 13:33:52

BB I'm the same. If the DDs have been ticked off at school, my defualt stance is that they deserved it. My second default stance, was that even if they didn't really deserve it, it won't do them any real harm...

Clumsyoaf Mon 18-Mar-13 13:45:31

Awww, my little ones are too young yet but I feel for the OP. Whatever the situation my gut instict would be to protect and defend my child if s/he came out of school crying.

It could be nothing, but it could also be a MDA with PMT who decided the kids were gonne get it!

OP come back!

I can totally believe LaQueen's story too. DH and I still cringe thinking about the outraged telephone calls that MIL has made to both the university and then employers on behalf of BIL (her precious last born). I also once pulled strings to get him a well paid cash-in-hand job when he was 16 but after half a day he decided that it was beneath him and walked out. DH had to finish the shift on his behalf. Fortunately my employer had encountered plenty of stroppy, entitled teenagers before and saw the funny side.

NotTreadingGrapes Mon 18-Mar-13 13:50:03

I absolutely believe LeQ's story.

I have a student whose Dad won't let her come to her lessons if it's cold.

She is 24.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 13:52:49

Obviously, OP's DS felt overwhelmed

I don't think it obvious. I think it more likely he thought he was in trouble and would get the sympathy vote in first. Had he spent the afternoon crying the teacher would have met you at the door and mentioned it.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 13:58:52

This new graduate had only been with DH's company less than 3 weeks. She was offered a ticket, last minute, to a festival, and just took it for granted that she could take the Fri/Mon off work...she was astounded when DH said no! She must have rung her Mum, and complained, because only a short while later her enraged Mum rang DH, to bitterly complain on her DD's behalf...

To be honest, there have been other similar incidents with people DH has recruited, but this is the one that always sticks in my memory.

Greensleeves Mon 18-Mar-13 14:12:00

Like a previous poster I have seen several incidents where a power-hungry MTA has completely overreacted and really upset a child. Supply teaching in my case too - you do meet some varied practice in schools.

It does't help people trust school staff if we all refuse to admit of the possibility that sometimes, staff get it wrong. Children aren't always in the wrong.

OP has done the right thing asking the school for clarification, if her child was still distressed at the end of the day. She may well find that her ds was being a little sod, the telling-off was fine and he turned on the waterworks for Mummy when the bell went for hometime. But not necessarily!

Sparklyboots Mon 18-Mar-13 14:20:27

I don't think it obvious. I think it more likely he thought he was in trouble and would get the sympathy vote in first. Had he spent the afternoon crying the teacher would have met you at the door and mentioned it

I agree that the child probably hadn't spent the afternoon crying or the teacher would have mentioned it. But even if the reason that the child was crying was to 'get the sympathy vote' (which sounds v. dismissive!) I'd really want to know why he was so afraid to face the consequences of his actions with me? In either scenario, he's crying and that suggests that he needs help and guidance with ways to process either hurt/upset if it was that he was shouted at unfairly OR fear about how I was going to respond. In that sense, I think it's true that he's 'overwhelmed' even if you don't approve of the reasons for his overwhelm. I'd want to establish what the facts of the matter were before making a judgement about whether or not he was trying to 'get the sympathy vote' or had a rough afternoon in other, less clear ways or was in fact, telling the truth. In any of those scenarios, I think the child needs support and help.

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 14:21:00

As a supply teacher I would always meet the person who collected the child to explain- if the child was upset. (especially if it was something that I did) It seems that the child didn't spend the afternoon crying, they just turned it on for Mum-because they expected the reaction they got. I cried fairly easily as a child -but if I was upset I was upset-I couldn't have an afternoon holding it all in until home time!

landofsoapandglory Mon 18-Mar-13 14:21:04

I believe LaQueen. When I was 17, I was working as a dental nurse and studying at night school to become qualified, the practice took on a school leaver. She wasn't overly happy with what we had to do and the wages (although they had been explained at the interview) so her dad phoned up and complained and requested that she either did less work or had a pay rise!

On Saturday DS1 was treated unlawfully at work. I said we'd take advice and he could act on that advice and hand his notice in if that is what he wants, but he has to do it! DH said he would go to see the manager and sort it out for DS1!hmm I said "WTAF he is 18, he has to do it himself!" Guess who won!

I can totally believe LaQueen's story. I've heard plenty via friends who worked in the private sector (I was public sector, didn't quite get the same thing there), and I've seen articles in newspapers over the years about this.

Also the recruitment consultant on a course I attended had similar stories, all given to us in the manner "this is what you DON'T do".

nenevomito Mon 18-Mar-13 14:22:31

We have graduate recruits. We don't treat them like skivvies though, we treat them like any other colleague and they learn on the job. Coffee making goes both ways.

All of this "If they're not grateful for being asked to make coffee they're entitled fools" is just bullshit. Mutual respect in the workplace. It aint that difficult.

Sparklyboots Mon 18-Mar-13 14:24:24

Re the mums/ entitled grads sub-discussion, I work in a Uni and have had parents ring to complain on behalf of their grown-up children. Our standard line (because it is true) is to explain that unfortunately owing to the data protection act we can neither confirm nor deny whether or not that individual is even a student in my institution, let alone discussing the details of that studentship. I would rather think the same applied to working environments?

exoticfruits Mon 18-Mar-13 14:26:44

I have seen several incidents where a power-hungry MTA

Power hungry? hmm I don't know how you recruit them with that attitude. If I was one and had parents making that sort of statement I would hand in my notice-it isn't worth the hassle for the pay. (or if they think that PMT makes me take it out on 6 yr olds!)

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 18-Mar-13 14:29:26

Oh, I can believe the mum ringing up - I get students telling me they couldn't attend a seminar as Dad wouldn't let them drive in the fog, I get mothers ringing up asking if they can sort out essay extensions for dd who has been sad about her boyfriend etc...

I don't move in a world of company directing though, so I don't know about coffee making rules... instinctively it doesn't sound like the most efficient use of bright and qualified staff, but there we go!

MoYerBoat Mon 18-Mar-13 15:21:15

Oh I can believe parents ringing in when their children are at university. After all, parents accompany their offspring to Open Days and interviews nowadays whereas back in my day we would have been mortified to have been seen with our parents at our prospective university.

Floggingmolly Mon 18-Mar-13 15:59:23

Is it better that the company director wastes their time making coffee, then, steaming? It's traditionally the departmental junior's role.

nenevomito Mon 18-Mar-13 16:19:19

Flogging - I used to work for a start-up enterprise with a Company Director and a small base of staff (initially). He respected every member of staff for the skills that they bought to the business and didn't dick wave by expecting the team to make his coffee.

He was a brilliant boss - and yes occasionally I made him a brew, but not because he saw me as some subordinate who should run around after him and be grateful, but because I was going to make myself one and offered around the office.

I know a university lecturer and he's told me he's had calls from parents, asking about things relating to the course.

He tells parents he can't talk to them without the student's permission but then they start to argue that as they are funding the student, they want to know if the student is getting the grades, ie getting "value for money".

He repeats he can't tell them anything without the student's permission regardless of who's paying.

Floggingmolly Mon 18-Mar-13 16:25:05

Fair enough, Baby. I'd just laugh at the arrogant foot stamping of someone straight off the dole queue, graduate or not, imagining they can refuse to do menial tasks as they're destined for greater things.

Kiriwawa Mon 18-Mar-13 16:34:41

I used to work at a smallish company where the MD was briefing all the staff about some changes he was making to the business. His PA was chasing up people who hadn't replied to the choice of two dates and a graduate trainee said that he couldn't make either date as he was on study leave those days and could the MD arrange to see him another day? grin

I've never forgotten that either

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 17:12:04

"I don't move in a world of company directing though, so I don't know about coffee making rules... instinctively it doesn't sound like the most efficient use of bright and qualified staff, but there we go!"

Nit - all of DH's staff were 'bright and qualified' ...indeed they were far more qualified and experienced, than this graduate, who had only been there a week.

And, making coffee certainly isn't the most efficient use of DH's time.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 17:16:51

"We have graduate recruits. We don't treat them like skivvies though, we treat them like any other colleague and they learn on the job. Coffee making goes both ways."

Ahem...is asking a new recruit to make the occasional coffee (same as all the other members of staff do, and DH himself, on occasion) and getting them to keep the Company Director's owner treating them like a skivvie ? Really? I mean...really hmm

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 17:17:38

That should read 'Company Director's Diary' - doh...

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 18-Mar-13 17:30:27

Like I say - I can well imagine the mum ringing up - and I don't know the etiquette of the coffee making, but I can see it might not always go down well with some people!

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 17:37:15

Nit - I wish you could have seen DH's face when the Mum rang...he was like this hmm

I don't suppose anyone likes making coffee for an office full of people...but, if you're sensible, you put a brave face on it. You don't start holding forth to others (more experienced and better qualified than you) that you're too well qualified to make coffee grin

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 18-Mar-13 17:38:35

We were talking about mums ringing today, because we absolutely can't even confirm that said child is even a student at the university.

Which can get awkward and difficult to maintain as a position!

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 17:42:34

Must be tricky Nit when the Mum is saying 'Well, I know she's at the university, because I helped her move into her room, and I have visited her every month, in that room, for the last 2 years...' grin

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 18-Mar-13 17:49:51

Then we would say something like 'in cases where parents are having difficulty contacting their children, we recommend that....' [whatever relevant course of action is taken...]. But really, once you start saying 'ah yes, Josh, I know him' or, even worse 'ah yes, Josh, no I haven't seen him lately either', you could get into all sorts of trouble with estranged parents, people with court orders etc.

And I never knew this until very recently - I shudder to think of the trouble I could have been in!

TheOriginalSteamingNit Mon 18-Mar-13 17:50:05

So the moral is: mums, butt out! grin

WeWishYouAMerryNameChange Mon 18-Mar-13 18:03:18

A similar thing happened to my 6 yr old dd last week, she came out of school in tears as she had been shouted at at dinner time, because some other children were being silly.

I explained calmly the concept of 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time' how that being shouted out didn't really matter, (she has worse from me) and in the kindest possible way told her to get a grip.

I work in a school and had a LSA come into the office demanding something with the closing line 'I can't believe I've got to do this, I've got a degree', I just passed her what she needed and said 'haven't we all'. We also have had parents of NQTs phone in to tell us they can't make it in (my favourite was that their darling son wouldn't make it in because it was 'a bit icey')

Keeping a Company Director's diary isn't menial. In the civil service the staff who keep diaries for ministers are quite senior, it's a responsible part of the job.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 18:23:30

Yep Fry keeping DH's diary, is actually a good introduction to how many of the office procedures work. It gets new staff familiar with clients etc.

grin It's on my CV.

nenevomito Mon 18-Mar-13 18:49:42

To be honest LaQueen, if in your own words there have been other similar incidents with people DH has recruited, he may want to look at his recruitment procedures or the way he treats his staff.

Working in academia, I know that parents DO call up on behalf of their children to make sure they're going to lectures and completing coursework and we do tell them to sod off that we can't confirm anything. We've even had them call up the Library to complain about their PFBs fines for losing or never bringing books back and demanding that we let them off - we don't. But I've been recruting people for over 15 years now and I've never, ever in all my time as a manager had someone behave as you describe.

FutTheShuckUp Mon 18-Mar-13 19:03:44

Some of you are harsh I tell you HARSH! He's 6 not 14- he's still a baby!! Id be upset if my 6yr old was upset (but fully admit to babying him!)

Floggingmolly Mon 18-Mar-13 19:11:52

Where do you think all those people end up working, babyheave?
They're out there somewhere.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 19:17:25

Baby - well, that's absolutely fine for you. Well done, I guess hmm

But, for myself, DH and many other posters on this thread - our experiences of some new graduates are very, very different.

I'm sure that both experiences are equally valid, yes?

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 19:22:02

Well, Exactly Flogging those self same under graduates who enlist parental support every time they receive so much as a library fine, and who fall to pieces the second they get a smidge of constructive criticism, don't magically become mature, self sufficient, pro-active graduates at the very moment they receive their degree certificates.

They head out there, looking for a new career. Their CVs looks polished, they are articulate and engaging in the interview...and, then they begin their new job and are horrified to discover the entire office doesn't revolve around them, and that the MD won't drop everything to hold their hand, and stroke their hair, and give them a place on th senior management team before they've even finished their placement grin

ChocStocksRunningLow Mon 18-Mar-13 19:38:09

LaQueen, does your husband not have his own PA at his successful publishing company? Having worked for both Condé Nast and NatMags pre children, all directors/managers had PA and a secretarial pool, along with office juniors for each publication, so the graduate trainees could, you know, do what they've joined a graduate trainee scheme for. Or is your husband's successful publishing firm just a small one with a couple of employees only?

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 19:43:52

Choc no, he generally has about 12-15 employees, now. It used to be a bit bigger, but hey...that's the recession for you [shrugs]

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 19:46:51

Plus, there's no official graduate trainee scheme, as such (although I have oft touted this as an idea).

ChocStocksRunningLow Mon 18-Mar-13 19:52:10

I just find it a bit odd, either said graduate was employed as a sec/PA, in which case diary management and coffee making is part of the deal. Or, employed in a training role of some kind, where surely training is the operative word and not office skivvy/PA etc.

Maybe it's just the companies I worked for that worked like this. I don't know about small provincial print companies as it wasn't my thing.

TunipTheVegedude Mon 18-Mar-13 19:52:39

LaQueen then maybe your dh is not reading between the lines carefully enough in references?
He can't be employing people with no work experience whatsoever, unless he is really short of applicants and is scraping the barrel.
Even student references will frequently give you a clue - you can't say for the less good candidate, 'This student has no independence whatsoever and thinks the world owes him a living' but for the good ones you can write a few glowing sentences about how mature and self-motivated somebody was in their approach to learning.

Possibly he could also make more use of the interview to make sure he and the candidate are on the same page about expectations in the workplace.
Or perhaps he has learnt his lesson and does that now smile

Ducklings45 Mon 18-Mar-13 19:55:54

I don't know if it's just the school I work in but the Midday supervisors at our school shout all the time. I don't think it's a good way to deal with things but that's just what they do.
If I was told every time a dinner lady had shouted at one of the children it would take hours and end of the day I would have no idea who had/ had not been shouted at by a dinner lady!

Wabbitty Mon 18-Mar-13 20:02:24

Years ago I worked with someone (A) who always got either her mum or boyfriend to ring in sick on her behalf. A lived with her boyfriend in their own place. I always thought it was odd when her mum rang in for her because A would've had to have phoned her mum in order for her mum to phone us.

TheFallenMadonna Mon 18-Mar-13 20:03:18

The thread title is bringing back surprising fond memories of "Killer", our primary school dinner lady....

Yelling is frowned upon in schools though, and if she is a bit shouty generally, rather than as a one off, a quiet word with the teacher wouldn't be out of order really.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 20:09:11

Choc All new employees tend to circulate through the same system, but I wouldn't glorify it by calling it a graduate training scheme, especially smile

ByTheWay1 Mon 18-Mar-13 20:14:34

I'm an MDA and must admit to shouting maybe once or even twice a lunchtime - usually at the same kids yet again...

the ones who think it is funny to try to punch someone, deliberately kick legs instead of football, or put mud in coat-hoods, or choose to do a running jump into a puddle as their chosen "victim" walks by. "Come right here...... NOW" works a treat......

But generally - after 6 years "the look" is enough to stop usually good kids even thinking about doing bad.... sometimes has to be accompanied by a slow head shake.... or even.....horror of horrors.... an eyebrow raise - you would be AMAZED at the power of a raised eyebrow across a noisy playground.

ChocStocksRunningLow Mon 18-Mar-13 20:20:24

Ah, I see. A start at the bottom as an office junior and maybe move up sort of thing? Like I said, I've not worked for a small publisher and things were very different for grads that we hired. I don't much see the point of a degree requirement for roles like that, rather hire an eager school leaver and train them to do it your way.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 20:21:41

Turnip he tends to use a recruitment company, he probably needs to use a new one?

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 20:26:25

Chocs it shows the state of things, that DH can hire graduates so easily.

TheRealFellatio Mon 18-Mar-13 20:30:36

If my child does something wrong, I am not precious about him and the situation should be death with accordingly by the person in charge. No issue with that.

Except that everything about your reaction says otherwise.

ChocStocksRunningLow Mon 18-Mar-13 20:32:11

My mistake, your posts read as if it was at least a few years ago, I didn't realise it was so recent.

Interesting that he uses a recruitment agency rather than interview them himself. I'd hazard a guess that that's where he's going wrong. A least if he interviews them, the expectations for both parties would be known prior to the offer and acceptance of a role.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 20:40:49

Choc - he's always often recruited graduates, but for the last few years he's been inundated with graduate CVs. I guess they are so keen to work in media/publishing, even in such a relatively small company in the Midlands.

Portofino Mon 18-Mar-13 20:43:27

He is a fool using a recruitment agency. They normally charge about 10% of the new starters wages. If he wants someone to make his coffee and learn on the job, he is better advertising in whatever local paper/ magazines you have near you.

Portofino Mon 18-Mar-13 20:46:38

Especially as all small businesses are feeling the pinch these days. It must be a big worry for you.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 20:49:04

Not especiallu worried Porto - although I've often said he's needs to be more rigorous in his selection of employees...but, we've learned not to talk shop, because it just leads to arguments heated debates...

BOF Mon 18-Mar-13 20:51:57

I'd say "it is foolish" rather than "He is a fool", Porto. Apart from losing a Mercedes (I think?), I'm sure he's a sensible enough chap. I bet LaQueen has plenty of examples of his good sense it just might take her a while to come up with them grin

Coconutty Mon 18-Mar-13 20:52:40

If you use an agency, you do still interview the candidate yourself.

LumpyMcBentface Mon 18-Mar-13 20:53:19

Who do I have to shag to get a coffee round here, anyway?

BegoniaBampot Mon 18-Mar-13 20:54:01

Thought folk made their own coffee these days. Worked for MNC's and all the bosses got their own coffee.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 20:54:04

Twas a BMW BOF - [gets out pen and paper to list DH's sensible attributes...pauses...scratches head...bites pencil...ponders...sighes heavily...stares out of window...]

ChocStocksRunningLow Mon 18-Mar-13 20:56:37

Evidently not in MLaQueen's company. Otherwise he'd notice at interview that the grad in question was not actually appropriate for the role.

ChocStocksRunningLow Mon 18-Mar-13 20:57:18

Lumpy, me if you want. You know it would be worth it.

Portofino Mon 18-Mar-13 20:57:35

Sorry- I didn't mean to imply that Mr LaQueen WAS a fool. blush. As a successful entrepreneur I am sure he is far from being so.... I source IT consultants amongst other things so I know first hand what mark up these agencies charge. He is definitely missing a trick though.....

ChocStocksRunningLow Mon 18-Mar-13 20:59:30

Quite the contrary Porto, if he's managed to lose a BMW, I'd suggest fool comes into it somewhere.

digerd Mon 18-Mar-13 20:59:39

I remember when I was 6 and very sensitive, timid and shy. I loved dancing so mum sent me to a ballet school
We were at the dress rehearsal for a show and I was with others dancing on the stage, when the teacher shouted at me for something I was doing .

I was very upset and told mum I didn't want to go anymore and the reason.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 21:02:10

Aaaaah, just realised something...

I'll leave you gals to play nicely smile

Portofino Mon 18-Mar-13 21:02:47

LaQueen maybe you could ask MNHQ what rates they get for recruitment. Huge opportunity for benchmarking! As I am in Belgium it sadly won't work for me - otherwise I could get on at them about hosting costs and servers and the like... grin

Coconutty Mon 18-Mar-13 21:05:12

Not quite sure what's going on here but no likey.

LaQueen Mon 18-Mar-13 21:11:34

It's fine Coco - just let them play. I have no problem with it smile

ChocStocksRunningLow Mon 18-Mar-13 21:12:06

I'm as bewildered as you Coconutty tbh.

<polite cough>

Has the school clarified yet, OP?

Portofino Mon 18-Mar-13 21:45:55

Eh? confused

Ds1 is just finishing his second term of Law at university. Have I failed as a parent because I haven't rung the department to see how he is getting on? I do ask him if when he rings me, though - so maybe I am not a wholly neglectful mother......... grin

Thumbwitch Tue 19-Mar-13 06:30:15

<<completely ignores OP>>

I think the problem with graduates starts probably at school but it's perpetuated by the universities - the amount of handholding that they're offered can be quite ridiculous! I used to work for a college and we had to produce all this paperwork for them so they knew EXACTLY what was expected of them, including guidelines on how to do their assessments hmm - thinking for themselves wasn't a top priority, clearly! And we had a few of the "we pay for this, we expect you to tell us how to achieve the best marks" types - usually they didn't last the distance though. <phew>

You don't have to be a graduate to be a workshy entitled teen though - DH was a team leader in a popular supermarket for a while and he had one 17yo on his team who seriously CBA to do anything for her pay, she just wanted to stand around and fiddle with her hair, or chat to her friends when they came in - actually doing anything such as stocking shelves or tending to customers was, like, so beneath her. hmm

I also remember on one of my work placements during my degree that making tea for everyone was one of my jobs. Actually there were 3 of us students doing the placement, and we took it in turns - but we made tea for EVERYONE in the place, at a set time morning and afternoon, because we had a set tea break.
You didn't whinge about it, you just got on and did it! All part of learning how to interact in a work environment, IMO.

MoYerBoat Tue 19-Mar-13 06:43:05

OP - forgot to say YANBU

FullOfWoe Tue 19-Mar-13 06:49:36

MDA here, it's a very difficult job, for the lowest pay you could ever imagine. I strive to treat all the children as I would want my own treated. Sometimes that includes a telling off if they have been silly.

Iggly Tue 19-Mar-13 06:51:57

Gosh what a load of horrid responses.

Knowsabitabouteducation Tue 19-Mar-13 06:56:46

Why do children nowadays tell their parents the minutiae of their school day?

When I was a child, if I told my mother about being disciplined at school, i'd get the same treatment all over again at home.

BegoniaBampot Tue 19-Mar-13 08:15:21

Yip, if you told your parents you were in trouble, you got it at home as well, you learned to keep quiet about lots of things. The teachers could belt or discipline you at will, no notes home to parents, it was all kept withing the school - not really ideal either.

BegoniaBampot Tue 19-Mar-13 08:17:01

Got the belt at 10yrs for passing a note. Never told my parents, was too terrified to as I might have got a smack or a belt from them too.

TheRealFellatio Tue 19-Mar-13 08:41:06

Blimey how did we arrive from a world where children being belted or caned were too scared to tell their parents in case they got into trouble twice, to a world where a dinner lady has to justify herself to a parent every time she needs to scold a child in the playground? confused

exoticfruits Tue 19-Mar-13 10:40:58

Blimey how did we arrive from a world where children being belted or caned were too scared to tell their parents in case they got into trouble twice, to a world where a dinner lady has to justify herself to a parent every time she needs to scold a child in the playground?

It makes for the sheer addictive power of MN.
Where else could you get it? grin Certainly not in RL where people would dismiss it in a sentence-not spend days commenting on it. I expect it is long forgotten by OP's DC.

OnwardBound Tue 19-Mar-13 13:47:16

Maybe, maybe not exoticfruits

I'm not sure how this thread turned from being about an upset 6 year old to focusing on the youth of today being feckless and unemployable.

Apparently due to having their worries and concerns listened to by a caring parent.

No really, they should just be grateful that the belt is now illegal and anything else you just put up and shut up.

Otherwise they will end up thinking they are above making coffee for LaQueens DH or something like that.

exoticfruits Tue 19-Mar-13 14:16:41

You have it summarised perfectly, OnwardBound-I would say typical MN reasoning-and the thing that makes it such a joy! wink

exoticfruits Tue 19-Mar-13 14:19:10

And meanwhile OP never comes back to say what she thinks, or give an update, so we all chunter on happily with our experiences of 'entitled' young people or the occasional variation where some one says how horrid we all are!

No - there is a huge difference between a concerned parent listening to their child, and one who,is ringing up an employer to say that they should be letting that child have unearned holiday, or letting that child grow up thinking that they are too good for certain jobs in the workplace.

My boys know I love them, and am here for them, and if, for example, school were punishing them for something someone else had done, I would be advocating for them. But if they haven't handed in their homework, or if they have done something stupid (like dropping their backpack down a stairwell, just missing braising a teacher), then I will be behind the school 100%. And when ds1 gets his law degree, and gets his first job, I will tell him that he has to start at the bottom, and that he should be prepared to do whatever he is asked to do, with a good grace.

OnwardBound Tue 19-Mar-13 15:21:13

Oh obviously STDG there is no excuse for parents ringing the employers of their 20 odd year old offspring!

But that's sort of my point, how did the thread move from being about the concerned Mum of a crying 6 year old (whether you agree with OP or not) to being about adult children being babied by their parents?

I really don't believe that by taking a 6 year old's upset seriously you are spoiling them irredeemably. Doesn't mean that you have to do much about it necessarily dependent on child's general temperament and severity of incidence. But I do think every child deserves to be listened to and believe they can go to their parents with their upset and concerns. Not be automatically dismissed and belittled because the teacher is probably right and there's no point in causing a fuss really hmm

Some people on this thread sound practically Victorian in their parenting attitudes!

Sparklyboots Tue 19-Mar-13 15:37:59

Well, I think the OP left when her concern about her crying six year old was treated with scorn and her concern for him was compared with the kind of anxious overbearing parenting that posters associate with 'entitled' graduates in junior roles.

LaQueen Tue 19-Mar-13 16:07:52

"Blimey how did we arrive from a world where children being belted or caned were too scared to tell their parents in case they got into trouble twice, to a world where a dinner lady has to justify herself to a parent every time she needs to scold a child in the playground?"

Feck me, if I know Fell, and I'm frankly still at a loss as to why who makes my DH's coffee at work, came to be of such fascinating interesting, and worthy of such in-depth scrutiny...hmm

Because, truth be told, I find it a vair boring subject, and I'm married to the bloke... wink

SugarPasteGreyhound Tue 19-Mar-13 17:45:45

Or perhaps OP decided - after many posts telling her that she was over-reacting - that SWBU?

The graduate angle came about I think, as an example of where PFB type parenting can lead.

Incidentally, everyone in my dept gets the coffees in - including the head of who is my boss' boss! The point is that everyone takes a turn.

cory Tue 19-Mar-13 17:53:05

Even where a 6yo is concerned I think there is some kind of middle ground between not listening to his concerns and insisting that the school should keep a full record of every act of disciplining. Listening to dc, suggesting explanations for what has happened at school, teaching them how to deal with the experience- has anyone banned those yet?

For me, it was the fact that the OP said that her son was part of a group who were mucking around, and the MDA shouted at them - so it seems likely to be an "Oi, you lot - stop that!", in the context of a busy, noisy playground - and that doesn't seem like a terribly big deal to me.

FinnTheHuman Tue 19-Mar-13 19:04:46

My favourite DH story of parents interfering on behalf of their children was when he had to explain to a mum why their son had been sacked for gross misconduct. She had come in to demand an explanation as her son was not forthcoming with the reason.

DH had to have the mortifying conversation with her explaining that her son had been caught wanking in the toilets. Which is never really encouraged in the food preparation industry.

digerd Tue 19-Mar-13 19:20:16

Finn
How embarrassing face. I read that grown men think about sex every 20 minutes. Not being male I am glad in that respect I am not .

LaQueen Tue 19-Mar-13 19:23:12

Endlessly fascinating as my DH's coffee making preferences are...

I have to agree with you sugar - the newest recruit probably makes coffee most often, but everyone takes their turn - DH too, although he is shit at it, he offers to make it, then gets caught up doing something, and finally switches on the kettle an hour later, in which time people have usually got fed up of waiting, and made their own grin

He does it at home, too...I think it's deliberate hmm

MoYerBoat Tue 19-Mar-13 20:13:07

To be fair, LaQ, tis you who is going on about your DH and his ruddy coffee ... can't he just go to Costa? smile

kim147 Tue 19-Mar-13 20:49:46

Went to a school today. Only about 20 children in the playground. The MDA was yelling at the children who were simply asking a question. It was not time to line up but yelling at them when they were only a few metres away that it was not time did seem a bit off.

LaQueen Tue 19-Mar-13 21:03:52

Mo I am just responding to the kindled interest...he does Costa every lunchtime, by the way wink

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