To call social services on a friend?

(98 Posts)
MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 10:44:13

I have been holding off on this for some time, 9 years if I'm really honest. My friend has struggled for years. Three DC at home, recently dispatched her DH because of domestic violence and because he attacked one of the children. Social services involvement and courts.

She has been struggling to cope on her own, if anything the situation for the children has become worse. The children stink, there is no food in the house, they do not have coats, their shoes do not fit, there hair is matted. One child is refusing to go to school and has started smashing the house up. When we visited last week there was old food and rubbish all over the floor in the kitchen, no bin, piles of wet washing, no cloths, no clean dishes, cigarette buts all over the sitting room floor, glass smashed....

She has had her benefits stopped and has about 2,500 rent arrears and yet she is running around with an iphone on which she has run up a bill just short of £500 this month.

She is taking men back to the house, sometimes two in one day for hook ups, spending social services loan on travel to meet men.

The final straw yesterday, she rang in tears threatening to leave her children to move in with some man. She had no food for the Dcs and her money had not come through. I offered to feed the children and offered her the use of our phone/pc to try and sort of TCs. She turned up at 6pm, dressed up with an overnight bag. She left her son aged 11 roaming around the streets whilst she got on a train to meet a "date" in London.

I am very concerned about her and them and I don't want to go behind her back. So do I tell her what I am doing or just ring SS and then back away?

Any opinions?

StanleyLambchop Thu 07-Mar-13 10:48:39

I think you know what you need to do, those children need help. If SS have already been involved then I really think you can be honest and say you believed she needed some support again. Did she leave the other children with you? If so, then she has involved you and you have to do something. Good Luck

Chigley1 Thu 07-Mar-13 10:50:56

Agreed, SS really need to be involved here.

YANBU. Please call them now.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 10:52:15

Thank you, I just feel very disloyal if I go behind her back. She has always come to me for help, it isn't really a friendship, just a case of me feeling I should help if I can.

She left one child with another friend and left the boy of 11 roaming the street with instructions "get your school stuff, go to "so and so's" house and go to school in the morning. This is a kid that won't go to school.

corlan Thu 07-Mar-13 10:53:08


Don't tell your friend you did it though as she may cut you off and the children need a concerned friend like you in their lives. Your friend does too.

targaryen24 Thu 07-Mar-13 10:54:28

Oh hell yes, call them.
Friend or not, the DCs deserve a bit of help & a better chance & she may benefit from it too in the long run. Made me so sad to read sad

KellyElly Thu 07-Mar-13 10:55:41

Don't worry about loyalty in this situation, the children come first.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 10:57:19

Should I tell her ? I have always been honest with her but she is a very volatile person, no boundaries, poor upbringing and very poor start in life. Yesterday she said again "why can't I be like you" last week she started flirting with DP, who said to keep her away from the house. He thinks she has mental health issues, he works in MH so maybe he's right.

There is social work involvement but I feel fairly sure that they don't know half of what is going on, which is why my friend is not getting the support she needs.

RobinSparkles Thu 07-Mar-13 10:58:17

I agree with everyone else. No one should have to live like that sad.

Those poor children, you have to do something. Don't see it as been disloyal see it as helping her, you will be giving her the kick up the arse she badly needs to sort herself out. Her children don't deserve to live like this and if she won't or can't help them at the moment you can by calling SS.
Social services are not kiddy snatchers, they are there to help.

targaryen24 Thu 07-Mar-13 10:59:12

My mum had a friend like that and spent years trying to help (lived exactly the same, not much food, unsanitary house, struggled etc. She also had undiagnosed mental health issues which she refused to seek help for). In the end all my mum could do to help her & her kid was to call SS. She doesn't know it was my mum to this day & things are a lot better for her kid. She just qualified from uni & (sadly) has disowned her mum due to her childhood.

But the point is it gave her DC a chance at education & kept her safe, though the outcome was sad in some ways. The DC who's now in her 20s always says she's glad someone did something when she couldn't or her life would be very different. Best of luck, I know it's a hard decision to make when it's also a good friend that you don't want to 'betray' thanks

fieldfare Thu 07-Mar-13 11:00:29

Call them and be honest, but I wouldn't tell her though. It would close off all communication and the kids need to have someone else watching out for them and making sure that SS are properly involved.

Cuddlydragon Thu 07-Mar-13 11:01:31

I can't think of a single valid reason why you wouldn't. Do it now, do it today. Poor kids. I wouldn't care what she thought tbh, but I probably would not tell her, to avoid risk that you were cut off from the kids and they were even more isolated.

AnneNonimous Thu 07-Mar-13 11:04:56

Oh this is heartbreaking.

Please call SS right now. I wouldn't tell her, you are helping her but she most likely won't see it that way.

thezebrawearspurple Thu 07-Mar-13 11:05:13

Call them now, those children don't deserve to suffer like thatsad

WilsonFrickett Thu 07-Mar-13 11:23:02

You know you need to call them. Call them.

I agree with pp saying not to tell her though. They need another pair of eyes on them at the moment.

neolara Thu 07-Mar-13 11:25:07

Of course you should tell them.

Icelollycraving Thu 07-Mar-13 11:28:54

Call them. These children & their mother need proper support immediately.
I can understand your reticence but you really must not ignore this any longer. She could bring anyone back. The children have a right to be clean,warm & fed.

Another one saying report to Social Services as soon as possible. Then hopefully both she and the children will get the help they need.

LaalRatty Thu 07-Mar-13 11:32:05

I'd call them OP. That sounds horrendous. Has anyone called SS for anything like this before? What actually happens? How do you know it did any good? Everytime I watch Jeremy Kyle they seem to call SS on each other seemingly out of spite.

DeepRedBetty Thu 07-Mar-13 11:32:27

YY to call them. If she's behaving as you describe chances are plenty of other people are aware of what's going on and the field of potential suspects if she starts wondering who called will be pretty big, if you decide not to tell her it was you.

lisad123everybodydancenow Thu 07-Mar-13 11:36:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 11:36:35

Thank you so much, I just feel so torn btw loyalty and knowing that she needs more help than I or anyone else can give. She listens but she has started telling lies to cover over the worst of this mess she is creating.

I am going to ring them, she has a social worker so I hope to speak to her because they need to know more about what is happening, perhaps then they will do more than just offer cash cards. The money she was given was spent on clothes and travel for her sad. she admits that she is struggling and admits that the NS sex is a way of escaping reality.

I'm off to find out the number. Thanks all.

Dahlen Thu 07-Mar-13 11:37:36

Of course you need to ring SS. This is a completely unacceptable situation for those children.

FWIW I think your DP is right about her mental state. She clearly needs help, which she will get if SS become involved.

Calling SS could be the best thing you've ever done for this woman and her DC.

It sounds to me like you've already made your mind up to call them.

You just don't know if you should tell her.

I'd say don't tell her and that way you can be around to make sure things improve for the family

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 11:38:38


at the moment dates i think but last week I took her to the job centre. She didn't have the train fare so I took her. She shouted at the lady behind the desk "NO F***ing money, I'll have to put cards out" I assume she meant start selling sex. I didn't ask, I just shuffled her out the building back into the car before anything else happened.

sparrowfart Thu 07-Mar-13 11:39:20

Yes you must. If in any doubt at all, consider what will happen if you don't, if no one does. Please help those children. sad

DeepRedBetty Thu 07-Mar-13 11:39:56

sad What a mess.

Sounds like she has borderline personality disorder. That could really fuck her kids up in 'the long run. Phone ss.

littlewhitebag Thu 07-Mar-13 11:47:16

Call SS and ask to speak to her allocated SW. Pass on the concerns you have noted. Make a list before you call so you don't forget anything. SW are so pressured with heavy case loads that sometimes they don't get round to visiting families very regularly. Or they try to visit but the parents manage to deflect them for a long time. Her SW has perhaps not seen the family in a long time. Also some parents can put on a good front and say all the right things to SW and it takes people like you to point out what is actually going on. If any harm came to the children you would regret it forever so you need to take action today.

Is the 11 year old still unaccounted for and the mum still out, because if so I would call the Police. They have powers to remove children too and will inform social services. The response may be faster.

greenhill Thu 07-Mar-13 11:55:16

Your friend sounds as if she has a lot of problems that she is unwilling / unable to address. The children should not be living like this though. Her social worker needs to know the full picture and you will know the details you can pass on to help your friend and her children.

You sound as if you are very kindly helping her: but unless you are actually living in with them, feeding the children, buying their clothes and untangling their hair to get them to school everyday, your help, however well intentioned is not making it better long term. And I think you are right to consider calling in professional help now.

YANBU, you are thinking of everyone's best interests in this very difficult situation.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 11:55:47


That is what DP suspects. He works with women who have BPD sad she has suffered terribly so understandable really.

I have just rung SS and I need to ring back at 12.30 to speak to social worker. The lady I spoke to confirmed that the children are known to them. I am sitting here shaking because I feel so anxious.


I am going to make a list so I can remember everything. I feel that although they are known the SS who is doshing out the money card and food parcels has got a very partial picture of what is happening.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 11:58:20

I don't know if the 11 year old went to school. I can't ring my friend because I am shaking and feel a bit tearful really. She may or may not be back from London. Yesterday she told her son she would see him after school. Those children are going to school with no breakfast, no help, no supervision and not knowing where their mother is. I could ring the school but they would need to know who I am. More risk of school telling friend????

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved Thu 07-Mar-13 11:59:05

think of it as calling the ss FOR her, not ON her... as you are doing the right thing for her and her children, as surely she doesnt really want to be doing this kind of damage to her children (and herself?). Sounds dreadful, hope they can do something for them.

TheFallenNinja Thu 07-Mar-13 12:01:33

Definitely. Call them and the police. Time for empathy is over.

SinisterBuggyMonth Thu 07-Mar-13 12:05:07

Yanbu op. Sounds like she definately has mental health problems. the unsanitary conditions they are living in and aggression sounds like my Dad, who has had undiagnosed MH Problems for many years. Had I not had my mum to look after me I could easily have had an upbringing like your friends children.

You sound like a very good friend who goes above and beyond were others would have given up years ago.

Look, stop think about her and your relationship with her. Vulnerable as she is, she's an adult. The 11yr old is a CHILD who as far as you know could have been out on the streets all night. Speak to the school NOW and then call the police.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 12:11:02

I would ring school and ask but if DP is right about her mental state, I could bring a whole shower of shit on my own family if she decides I have gone behind her back. I can either do this quietly without fanfare and swear the SS not to involve me or tell friend what I am doing and hope she understands I am doing it to help her. I can't though face having the school let on someone called Mini rang about her son.

SinisterBuggyMonth that sounds terrible for you, I hope you are all OK now.

I would have to agree with DoubleLife

Just after seeing your latest post Mini, can your reporting to SS not be done confidentially? Why would they need to inform your neighbour about who got in contact with them?

Surely there has to be some level of confidentiality involved?

Also, if you speak to the Principal of the school, can you not do that confidentially too and if the school feels it necessary to contact the police, then let them do it.

minouminou Thu 07-Mar-13 12:18:18

This is such a dire situation that loads of people are aware of it, so it could be anyone who's dropped the dime.

You know you have to do this, and I'm sure you will. It's understandable that you're nervous - I'd probably hurl - but just keep running the facts through your mind.

Ionasky Thu 07-Mar-13 12:21:33

fwiw - i wouldn't take the risk of telling her you called ss - you could make things really bad for your family. You're doing the right thing by getting SS more involved - this has likely been going on for some time, so don't feel as though if SS don't take action this minute you have to risk your family. You've already done what you can safely do.

targaryen24 Thu 07-Mar-13 12:25:59

SS can't tell her if you've asked not to be identified as the informer etc.
And you can always ask the SS to call the school (and say it's urgent) if you don't want to risk outing yourself that way either.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 12:27:31

I'm trying not to cry at the moment. I don't know why? I am ringing them back in a few minutes. I have made a bullet point list.

She may guess if the level of detail relayed by social workers is near to the actual facts. She knows i used to work for SS, so that won't help. I used to work in children's services which is another reason why I have put this off and why she asks me for help. If I am honest she probably expects me to contact them at some point but it doesn't stop me feeling so disloyal. I just can't help her enough, everything i do is not enough for those children.

I can't contact the father, he is a thug and not allowed contact. She has no family either.

targaryen24 Thu 07-Mar-13 12:30:20

Of course you're emotional! She's a friend & doing what needs to be done isn't always easy thanks

You are doing the right thing though. She can't be certain it was you and those poor kids need it. She may get the help she needs to by the sounds of it.

minouminou Thu 07-Mar-13 12:33:00

Essentially, Mini, she's a powerless, rather tragic figure.
What can she do to you even if she finds out? Is there anything in particular you're worried about?

Xiaoxiong Thu 07-Mar-13 12:41:41

Mini if she knows you used to work for SS she may actually be hoping you do something on her behalf wrt to contacting them. I wouldn't say anything to her at all, just tell them absolutely everything you know and even the stuff you merely suspect. I'd probably call the school too to try and make sure the maximum number of people with the power to do something are looking out for those kids.

I think you're doing absolutely the right thing. What a sad situation all round and you're a good friend to her and her family, even if she doesn't or can't appreciate it right now for whatever reason thanks

BlahBlahBlahhh Thu 07-Mar-13 12:42:22

Just read your post and wanted to say, have no doubt, you are 100% doing the right thing. I wish there were more people like you who have the compassion and mindfulness to see what is going on around them and not just close their eyes to it. It's a very sad situation but just remember you are doing the best for everyone involved, kids and mum.

thebody Thu 07-Mar-13 12:44:55

You know what to do. Doing nothing isn't an option unless you avoid mirrors for the rest of your life.

xigris Thu 07-Mar-13 12:48:09

Heartbreaking story. So horribly sad. Well done Mini, you've done the right thing both for those children and your friend. Have a big bunch of virtual thanks. I think it's only normal to feel emotional and teary.

autumnmum Thu 07-Mar-13 12:49:26

Mini I just wanted to add my support. I had to call SS about my neighbour and I felt awful when I did it. It was a slightly different situation as she was a vulnerable adult (no kids), but after months of incidents I was terrfied I was going to find her dead in the street. SS were brilliant, got her into hospital, got her house cleaned up (dog poo and human waste everywhere) and three years on she is a diffent person. She never knew it was me who called. SS should contact the school and you can ask them if they have done this if you are concerned about confidentiality. Good luck - you are doing the right thing.

thebody Thu 07-Mar-13 12:49:44

Add I would tell the school as well, they won't be able to say who the concerns were from, the more adults who can help are involved the better. Well done op xx

Snoopingforsoup Thu 07-Mar-13 12:50:47

Feed the kids, give them a bath then get her the help she needs.

Mini, you're doing the right thing, although I can appreciate how tough it is. I've been in the same situation as her kids and knowing someone has tried to help makes a world of difference.

ChocolateCoins Thu 07-Mar-13 12:54:45

You're not being un loyal by calling SS. You'll be giving her the help she and her DCs need.

You're doing the right thing, she needs help, more help than you can give. Her and her children will be better for it in the long run.

LoopDeLoops Thu 07-Mar-13 12:55:33

I have been this child. I am so glad you are calling SS. smile

minouminou Thu 07-Mar-13 12:59:31

If she was in physical pain, and you'd been giving her paracetamol, then (for the sake of argument) co-codamol, then your TENS machine.....and she's still in pain, you'd take her to the doctor, eh?

Translate this to a non-physical condition like she's probably got - which, importantly, impedes her own ability to ask for professional help - it's a no-brainer. Of course you'd get an outside agency in.

Pozzled Thu 07-Mar-13 13:02:32

I'm so glad you are calling ss. You are definitely doing the right thing- those poor kids.

NC78 Thu 07-Mar-13 13:03:24

You have done the right thing.

TheChaoGoesMu Thu 07-Mar-13 13:04:46

Tell ssd and tell them it needs to be confidential. You dont have to give your name if you dont want to. You have to do so for the sake of the children, because without a doubt, they are at significant risk of harm.

TheChaoGoesMu Thu 07-Mar-13 13:05:45

Just read your last post, well done op, stay strong.

ICBINEG Thu 07-Mar-13 13:08:02

another one to say you are doing the right thing!

hope you feel better about it asap.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 13:14:31

Thank you so much. I have spoken to named sw. They didn't have full picture but she is under one social worker. I have told them everything. The SW wasn't shocked it seemed to back up their suspicions.

The sw very concerned about leaving Dcs and even more so about taking Dcs to strange houses to meet men.

Thank you all, you have really helped, I feel very tearful, I just want them to get help and hopefully something will happen.

I may ask for thread to be pulled. My friend doesn't use MN but it might not be right to leave it here.

minouminou Thu 07-Mar-13 13:16:53

Good on you, Mini.
It's possible that part of your upset is actually relief - you've been dealing with this for a long time and have been increasingly worried.

Xiaoxiong Thu 07-Mar-13 13:19:06

Good work. It sounds like you have just confirmed what the SW already knew or suspected and hopefully this will help your friend get the help she needs. Thank you for being so brave thanks

Ionasky Thu 07-Mar-13 13:23:40

Good idea to pull thread just in case, well done you

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 13:28:10

The flowers are wonderful.

Nine years and the concerns have grown and diminished at different times. Things have changed and at times been much better so I hold off. Yesterday though was it. I felt scared and upset for the boy who looked lost. She told him "go play out with * and then go home collect bag and stay at ***house and go to school in the morning" The child looked lost and resigned. He didn't even ask where she was going. Leaving Dcs roaming the street whilst travelling over 60 miles on a train to meet and stay out with a stranger! At that point I guess I knew that she had finally lost all sense of right from wrong.

minouminou Thu 07-Mar-13 13:41:50

Hungry, cold and dirty, too.
You may not be the only person to make a call to SS today.

TippiShagpile Thu 07-Mar-13 14:11:59

You don't need to tell her what you've done. In fact, I would strongly suggest you don't.

She'll suspect the school so let her think that.

You've done a good thing.

ISpyPlumPie Thu 07-Mar-13 14:13:06

Just wanted to say I think you've done a very brave thing. Hopefully now things will get better for these poor children, and your friend will get some help too. Think it's totally natural to feel emotional - it must be an enourmously difficult situation to have been in. Take care of yourself thanks.

TheChaoGoesMu Thu 07-Mar-13 14:16:43

Well done op. You've done the right thing.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 14:29:42

I still feel a bit tearful. I just keep thinking that I could have said more last night, maybe convinced her not to leave the kids but I know it's more than just yesterday as well.

The SW asked a lot of questions which seems to imply that they will act to do something.

haven't heard from friend today, hope she is ok.

CalamityKate Thu 07-Mar-13 14:36:16

God those poor poor kids.

You've done the right thing. I wouldn't tell her but by the sounds of it she isn't that bothered about her kids anyway. It's not like she's going to care much if the worst happens and they're taken away. It would be best for them.

littlewhitebag Thu 07-Mar-13 14:36:29

Given the information you have shared on here the SW will have no option but to act on it. Hopefully things will start to get better for the family now.

CocacolaMum Thu 07-Mar-13 14:39:15

When I was young my mums best friend called SS on her. From the POV of the child PLEASE do call them. This woman is clearly caught in a spiral of destructive behaviour and one day she will understand that you were just doing what she should have been - looking out for her dc's welfare. What kind of friend would you be if you didn't do that?

CheerfulYank Thu 07-Mar-13 14:40:01

You've done the right thing. I really hope things get better.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 14:41:47

To be honest I think she cares about her kids as much as she is able or capable. She had a bad start herself and she lacks warmth when talking to people. She pushes the children away, no hugs, no warmth or kindness. You can see panic rise up in her face when they try to hug her.

I told SW that if they do not do something and things deteriorate further I will walk away too because I can't stand by and watch my friend destroy her own life let alone watch what is happening with the kids.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 14:42:31


I hope everything worked out for you

Twattybollocks Thu 07-Mar-13 14:44:12

I did call ss for a friend several years ago now, the situation wasn't nearly as bad as the one you are describing, but my friend was struggling with work, money, and keeping the house clean/ feeding the kids. I asked them to remain anonymous, but some of the details I gave there were only a couple of other people who could have known them. Ss gave her a lot of help and she has turned the situation around and is now fine. She did ask me several months later if it was me who reported and I admitted that it was, and explained why I had done it. She was fine with it and acknowledged that she needed help at the time, and ss had provided that.

lougle Thu 07-Mar-13 14:49:39

Well done, OP. In this case, it was the only thing to do.

CocacolaMum Thu 07-Mar-13 14:52:09

Honestly? Shes still very unwell mentally and is Queen of all manipulators but we are adults now and what the call to SS did was to bring her behaviour to the attention of our wider family which meant that the support that we all (including her) received was instant and ongoing. It may appear that the rest of the family are uncaring but it may be that they are just completely unaware.

Of the 5 of us, 4 have children of our own and we are all brutally aware of the importance of support and looking out for signs of depression in each other (because lets face it, very few parents would neglect through pure selfishness alone) and we have all agreed and promised in the past that our ultimate responsibilities lay with our nieces and nephews. I know that if my sister for example was neglecting her dc's I would call SS..and she would do the same for me, but only after trying everything else to help.

Funnily enough my mum met the best friend who called SS on her for the first time in a good 20 years the other day quite by chance and they are going for coffee this week.

Owllady Thu 07-Mar-13 15:01:50

well done, you have done exactly the right thing

SinisterBuggyMonth Thu 07-Mar-13 15:46:12

Well done OP you have definately done the right thing flowers. Hope you are feeling ok.

MiniTheMinx Thu 07-Mar-13 16:17:36

Thank you Twattybollocks that gives me some hope that if she finds out who rang she just might understand. I don't want to lose her as a friend. She was good to me several years ago when I needed a shoulder.

CocacolaMum what great siblings you have smile your right, I don't think parents neglect through selfishness. My friend has become totally self absorbed but she isn't well.

racmun Thu 07-Mar-13 16:48:59

Definitely the right thing to do. By the sounds of it if somebody had stepped In when your friend was younger then she might not have ended up the way she is.

I'm sure in her heart of hearts she doesn't want to be in this predicament and doesn't want to be looking after her children in the way that she does.

If social services intervene with hindsight she should be grateful and if she's not the her children will be .

You've got to try and stop the rot before its too late

Good luck

Keepsmilingsunshine Thu 07-Mar-13 21:23:48

Well done OP, I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to make that call but you have 100% done the right thing. I hope it all works out for your friend and her family.

MyDarlingClementine Thu 07-Mar-13 21:24:30

well done Mini, heart goes out to those children. Lets hope SS don't f it up.

isithometime Fri 08-Mar-13 09:11:35

Mini, would you normally have made contact with your friend by now after her overnight away and leaving the boy? If so, and if you are up to it, it might be better if you try as much as possible to carry on as normal?

quesadilla Fri 08-Mar-13 10:14:32

Call SS. No question about it. In my view it is verging on irresponsible not to.

slambang Fri 08-Mar-13 10:16:33

Er, read the thread, wont you? She has.

Mintyy Fri 08-Mar-13 10:20:47

I think you should tell her you have spoken to social services. No matter how disordered her thinking is she can't really believe that leaving her children to go to London for a night is acceptable? Nor that they have no food and live in filth. Deep down she will know this is not on and might even be grateful for the intervention.

Babyroobs Fri 08-Mar-13 10:25:59

Sounds like she has mental helath issues and needs help. I wouldn't hesitate to call social services, those kids need help soon .

LemonPeculiarJones Fri 08-Mar-13 11:15:06

You have done the right thing. Well done OP, not easy.

StanleyLambchop Fri 08-Mar-13 12:15:23

Well done OP, you have done the right thing. Do you know if the eldest son has been safely located yet?

MiniTheMinx Fri 08-Mar-13 12:56:35

Hi, yep the eldest is found, still don't know if he went to school though. I will ask later. I now have to try and keep things "normal" I am not good with deception and wonder how long I can keep it up. I am going to see friend tomorrow as I have some bits to give her.

I just hope that she will now get help. SW said that help had been offered and declined before. It seems that friend falls apart begs for help then pushes help away and only tells them what she wants them to know in order to elicit only the response she desires, ie money, cash card, food parcel or help with rent/paperwork. Now they know more perhaps they will be in a position to decide what help is more appropriate not just desirable to friend.

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