Upset by friends facebook status - I know I probably am but find it genuienely distressing!(257 Posts)
Saw friends facebook status about leaving her 6 week old DS to CIO to get him onto a healthy routine. this baby was born 4 weeks early. I text her to see if everything was ok. When she said she couldn't deal with doing the CIO but thought it was the best thing to establish a routine early ,I sent her a link to some info which I said had found really helpful in the early days. I'll admit the link was to some unconditional/ AP type parenting approach, her response was she didn't go in for the 'hippy' stuff and she wanted to make sure that her DS knew who was boss from day one and wasn't going to 'win' and after 3 hours he had gone to sleep.
I am not upset at all about her rejecting the info link, I sent it very tactfully and everyone chooses their own path in parenting but seriously CIO with a prem 6 week old, am I completely off the mark when I think this is very upsetting and worrying?!
Yanbu. It is sad. Unfortunately there's not much more you can do and she probably is convinced it's the right thing to do.
I think you are over reacting just a tad. She may try it, she may not do it again. It is her child and the sending over AP/Unconditional parenting thing may make her feel patronised.
CIO i assume, means cry it out - i think it is disgusting
Hi Captain - CIO is 'cry it out'
so upsetting, poor poor baby, but no, there is nothing you can do
I am sorry
Well not my choice but also think unconditional parenting theories also a load if old bollocks too.
Suggest you tread very carefully when criticising others parenting.
Everyone parents differently and that's fine.
If your friend is foolish enough to put stuff like that on Facebook...well, I'd just ignore her.
Kyrptonite - I did ask if she wanted the info first before sending it and just said it helped us.
CIO puts small babies under undue stress
Sir Robert Winston said so on his webchat a few weeks ago
but some HVs advocate it
A 10 minute CIO is one thing, but 3 hours? That is just wrong with any child.
Did it not occur to her that in that 3 hours her baby might have been hungry, wet or anything?
Can I just say that calling the baby a premature baby when it was born at 36 weeks is a tad emotive. Also I think sending that link was somewhat insensitive and not terribly helpful.
I don't have any strong feelings about CIO with older children, although wouldn't use it myself but leaving a 6 week old crying for 3 hours I have a 4 week old and can't imagen leaving him to cry like that
Maybe she didn't really wait 3 hours for him to CIO. Maybe it was a case of not wanting to admit she had it wrong. I remember desperately trying not to show people how much I was cracking up with DS and sleep at that age (we didn't CIO but I did do CC from 6 months).
Or maybe she is a complete fool.
No, it's not fine. Leaving a 6 week old (two week old corrected, is that right?) is horrific. I don't blame you for being upset, OP - I'm upset too and I don't know the woman in question!
YoutheCat yes I agree with this which is why I find it worrying on a couple of levels, as esther says the undue stress caused to a very young baby and the potential missing of needs.
thebody it isn't about criticising another parents approach it is having genuine concerns about how she is coping/ adapting.
I cannot imagine leaving any child, of any age, let alone a tiny baby to cry for 3 fucking hours. I'm pretty unshockable, and don't judge other people's parenting, but the thought of that would upset me too.
Jesus. 3 hours!!!!! Oh, I feel sick.
Leaving a 6 week old to cry it out is so sad. They aren't naughty, they cry for a reason. For three hours? That's just awful.
Im presuming CIO means Cry It Out.
There's nothing wrong with what she's doing as long as baby is not unwell. Sounds like she 's determined to get the baby onto an established routine and it will be difficult for them both at first but I'm sure baby will get used to it very quickly and settle down.
In the olden days it was common for babies to have a routine forced upon them from a very early age. Not all parents have the stomach for it though as it can be difficult for them to hear their baby crying without intervening.
You wait though: in a very short space of time your friend will have her baby on a regular schedule that it's perfectly comfortable on.
And I bet you anything your friend will not be one of those mums who seems to be is tired all the time.
YANBU, it would upset me too and I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who could do this.
Anyone who talks about showing a six-week-old 'who's boss' and 'not letting them win' is indeed a fool. Yes, I do know the first few weeks are tough, have been there, but still. Sorry.
So sad, I really hate knowing there are people who do this to babies, it is so fucking cruel.
Saving, even advocates of CIO/CC do not advocate it for babies so young.
Yes, Zavi . I don't subscribe to any of these so-called parenting methods. You do what is right for your baby and your family. 3 hours of crying isn't right for any baby though.
A friend of mine put a photo up of her sleeping 4 week old baby with the statement that she'd just "self settled, ie cried herself to sleep. Welcome to mummy day care darling!"
Made me feel sick.
She sounds thick. DP had a friend who along with his wife used the same method. We were invited to dinner when the baby was about 4 weeks old and the baby was taken to her cot because it was, 'bedtime' and DP's friend told his wife, 'to close the door as we don't want to hear her crying.' - he was a complete wanker anyway but this ensured we never saw him again!
Would it not have been better to send her information relating to CIO which shows that it is unsuitable for young babies? She doesn't sound like an unconditional parenting kind of person so was never going to take it on board. At least getting her some sensible advice on CIO or controlled crying might get through to her.
On the positive side, I know someone, told not to feed her baby at night from the word go (in 1960s) and did so as she did not know any better. Baby is now a healthy mother of three nearly adult children.
No what I would do though. It would be interesting to see what happens................. or not
You shouldn't let an adult cry for 3 hours, never mind such a tiny baby. And if he was born at 36 weeks, then at 6 weeks old, he is technically actually only 2 weeks old, IYSWIM.
I hate that 'show them who's boss' attitude, it is not just cruel, it's plain thick and ignorant. Honestly, I do sometimes wonder if some people have children just to have someone to wield power over.
I wonder why some people have children!
What a revolting, uneducated, heartless bitch. I will be thinking of her poor, innocent son when I go to sleep tonight. You could always show her thread, the friendship will be over but it might save her son having to scream himself to sleep every night. <weeps>
CIO is vile. It's neglectful to let a child cry for that long, no matter how old they are, and no matter how much you like your sleep.
Makes me sick.
What's wrong with calling a baby born at 36 weeks "premature", cansu? Any baby born before 37 weeks gestation is premature and will be monitored through their first year as such (adjusted age used to measure growth, development, etc) - not to mention increased health risks (jaundice, respiratory problems) from being born pre-term. Or how early do you think a baby has to be born to qualify as being "properly" premature, then?
Thing is OP, if she's doing CIO with a 6wo / 2w corrected, she is not going to react well to an article from a AP slant!
Personally, I think CIO is horrid at any age though I can understand if someone gets desperate because they are absolutely shattered. But to do it just because you think your baby "should" be in a routine and should "know who's boss" (wtf?!) is just cruel. I don't understand how people can't see that 6wo babies are supposed to cry and the parent is supposed to respond to it, and they are not supposed to sleep through the night. Great if they do, but it's not "normal", it's just luck.
My SIL is pg with her first and has told me she is going to do exactly that. I know that part of it is bluster because she thinks my parenting is hippyish and has made it clear she is doing everything different to me , but if she actually does go ahead and do it, well, I just don't know.
And if that is her view on children, then honestly I would find myself no longer able to be friends with her. Show them who is 'boss'? Jesus...
You can't control how anyone else parents their children. You offered your opinion and it wasn't acted on so you have to move on.
That's very sad, it would upset me too if I saw a friend posting a status like that.
I hate the "show it who's boss" attitude, it's a baby who needs to be cuddled, Not some evil genius who needs to be broken.
Some people are shirt parents. You can't help that. I can understand why you feel really sad and upset for the poor newborn baby involved.
Shirt = SHIT.
Bloody ipad auto correct.
She deserves to see this thread. <EmeraldGreen steps away from thread
before succumbing to the temptation to say "your friend is a fucking fool" for the 3rd time >
I think YABU for sending her unconditional/attachment parenting info but YANBU to find it upsetting nor for trying to help.
We used controlled crying. When DS was 7mo. I am comfortable with our decision and think it worked for us.
Despite obviously being an advocate of controlled crying in certain circumstances, I absolutely think that doing Cry It Out to a 6 week old is utterly mad. Poor, poor baby.
You can't leave a 6 wo to CIO, you just can't . I'm sorry if I'm being judgy.
Three hours? That's fucking awful, I've cried for 3 hours as an adult and its horrible. I would never ever want to leave anyone for 3 hours to cry.
That poor poor baby. I don't understand why some people have a baby and treat them as an inconvenience.
I think if you can leave your 6wk old baby to cry for 3hrs and not crack you may need some help.
Sad. And misinformed. Poor baby. I hope she was exaggerating.
I don't think I could be friends with someone who is so obviously lacking in empathy. I'm serious.
Yes I agree with doyouwantfrieswiththat, it is an alarmingly cold approach to take towards your NEWBORN!
Yes I agree with doyouwantfrieswiththat, it is an alarmingly cold approach to take towards your NEWBORN!
That is very sad
I wouldn't leave my 10yr old DS to cry for 3 hours, let alone a baby
I think this is horrendous. I just asked my husband (who manages a social work team- child protection) and he said that he would have concerns about this if he became aware of it through work. I completely agree with whoever said up-thread that it is neglectful. Poor baby
YANBU I wouldn't leave dd to cry for three hours (or any hours) and she's nearly 3. Actually I wouldn't leave dh to cry for three hours...
This friendship isn't going to make it though is it? Not if you're AP/UP and she's a control freak twunt?
I've been thinking about this and think you should call a local health visitor tomorrow. Don't give your details but say your friend would benefit from a visit and some advice on how to patiently and lovingly settle her newborn to sleep.
Any moron that posts that on fb is obviously in need of urgent help and her lack of compassion is very worrying. Don't worry about her thinking it is you, it could have been anyone of her 'friends' on FB....
My sister has a friend that lives in flats and when sister goes round to friends she hears the woman upstairs screaming at her 4yo.
"Get to bed now, you fucking, useless little bitch" is just some of the milder screaming she has heard all night.
Sister became so distressed listening to this when she visited friend she called social services and thankfully there has been no shouting since.
Sadly, we are a nation that is far too polite and afraid to 'rock the boat' but in these circumstances I wouldn't hesitate twice to help a child.
mummy2b - so pleased you posted that, just read it.
That baby didn't go to sleep he passed out! In mental anguish, hungry and probably in shock. Stupid twat . I'd post that on her FB wall, with links to relevant medically proven studies so her other mates can see and then follow it with "and now I am blocking you as I cannot stand to see any more updates of you detailing your cruelty to a helpless baby".
Poor little love - that's just heartbreaking I wouldn't leave my DS to cry for three minutes and he's nearly 6!
The baby will soon learn that crying does not get any food or comfort and will become withdrawn. This is just like the NSPCC advert. "*** has learnt not cry...".
I would report her to Social Services, HV or anyone that can do something. Take a screen print of the status to show them. You cannot let it go. She could be doing this tonight, and the poor little baby will be starving after crying that long but will be too exhausted to wake up for food. She is a cruel mother.
Oh and I would also say, you do know you are actually damaging your babies brain don't you? Hard wiring him for stress later in life? Oh well at least YOU get a good nights sleep. You knob!
And I hate to be the first one to say PND but...?
I agree - report it. It might be the tip of an iceberg.
The poor little thing. I did cc with DD at 9.5 months after 5 months of multiple wakings. She cried for 7 minutes and then fell asleep. I nearly cracked as it was - DH had to restrain me after the first minute! There is no way I could have listened to her for 3 hours. And she wasn't a tiny newborn.
Whether she has PND or not, she needs some help and advice from a reliable source (HV/GP etc).
I would normally mind my own business, but I think you are some kind of hard bitch to listen to a baby cry for that long and do nothing.
Either that or there may be some mental health problems.
It is making me sad thinking about it, I hope she was exaggerating.
Awful! I expect you will defriend her now, op? I do agree that it was a bit odd of you to send her AP info ... she's clearly not the type to go for all that schizzle is she? But there is a happy medium somewhere in between.
Btw, did you know Gwynnie and Chris Martin did something like this with their newborns? Employed a night nanny to basically get the baby into a routine from the get-go?
That is really sad
YANBU your friend definitely is.
Leaving a 6 week old baby to cry for 3 hours is disgusting, you need to tell your friend this.
How could she sit there and listen to her baby cry for that long? My dd is 11 months, I leave her for 15 mins max.
Can I just actually say!!! I have never heard of anyone who had abused a child bragging about it in face book!
Get a massive fucking grip here please.
Born at 36 weeks isn't prem normal labour is 36 to 42 weeks actually.
I personally don't let my kitten miaow for long key alone my 4 kids but I don't believe she did either.
Dam pressed too soon. Facebook status isn't always true!!
As for phoning social services!! Seriously, where do you people actually come from....
I agree. I would try to contact her HV. It is damaging to leave a baby under 6 months to cry alone for hours. It is emotional abuse.
So you would call her HV or SS and quote face book!!! No other evidence..
As for phoning social services!! Seriously, where do you people actually come from....
Ermmm we give a shit and are not prepared to turn a blind an eye to cruel fuckers that are neglecting and damaging their children, either way some asshole posts that on fb and thinks it's OK - NEEDS HELP.
So many times you hear again and again of children who come to harm neighbours/others wishing they had the balls to do something...
Babies born at 36 weeks are considered prem by everyone else except you. I know the nhs think so.
What a total cow! At 6 weeks old most people (with any sort of maternal instinct) are still in awe of their precious baby & couldn't bear to hear it cry for 3 mins let alone 3 hours! Very sad that her main priority seems to be to show it 'who's boss' rather than to show it 'who it can trust to be there when its upset'. Selfish bitch.
36 weeks isn't term though. Maybe not 4 weeks prem but still prem. I had a planned c section and they woudn't do it till 39 weeks. Plus leaving a 6 week old to cio is plain cruel. Think you Probably shouldn't have sent ap link. Probably a step too far.
I think this has "everything" to do with you being upset that she rejected your info Op. Sounds like your nose has been put out of joint here....
Did she check on her or just leave it for those three hours OP?
And does she know the guidelines for controlled crying...i.e. checking on them, timing the checks, comforting them if they go beyond upset into hysterical? If you are going to do CC/CIO then those things are pretty important!!!
36 to 42 weeks are normal delivery. At least they were when I trained as a nursing sister.
I don't advocate leaving new babies to cry. I never did.
BUT please read the original post.
And please again look at the facts. It's a face book status, distasteful maybe but probably not the total truth.
Maybe the op sending a link to the equally stupid unconditional parenting advice provoked this response from an obviously stupid woman.
If the op was a real friend she would offer proper support not links to websites??
I suggest this is a mischief making post to be honest.
She has obviously been told that establishing a routine is best for the baby and will make them 'contented' etc and is probably just trying to do that the best way she knows how.
I feel sick when I think of the way that we left DS to cry for his first few days (although we are talking minutes here, not 3 hours!). Me and DH were totally clueless about what to do. I had been to an NCT breastfeeding class which said NOTHING about the fact that the baby could well be hungry literally every few minutes, so when he was crying we thought he couldnt possibily be hungry again (plus the fact that breastfeeding was so painful that I was worried that putting him on so often would make my nipples even more shredded), we changed his nappy, rocked him, everything and in the end had to just put him in the moses basket completely stumped as to how to help him (I feel a bit teary just writing that )
Of course now I realise that he was just hungry and like I said, I feel just so shit about what we did. In fact it is only from reading mumsnet that I even realised this! But at the time we had no clue what to do, plus the advice we were getting from MIL was that he was 'testing' us and 'not to give in' . DS is of course absolutely fine - he was the most chilled out young baby ever, although has become a bit more 'challenging' as a toddler. Hopefully I will know better for next time!
It is very possible that the OPs friend is doing what she thinks is best for the family, and has just received bad advice. Op maybe just talk to her and, without pushing any kind of AP stuff on here, just let her know about alternatives to setting a routine so early.
It is upsetting, but I think your friend must have some kind of PND to be able to leave her baby to cry for 3 hours. That isn't a normal human response in a mother who is thinking clearly.
thebody I went into hospital with a false alarm at 36weeks, and the midwives weren't allowed to do much with me as I was considered pre-term, so it all needed to be led by a doctor. I was only a few days away from 37weeks, but it didn't matter, I was still officially pre-term. This was less than 2yrs ago, btw.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/pages/premature-early-labour.aspx NHS says babies born before 37 weeks are premature. You may need to refresh your training, thebody.
Just to be clear as original post says, first post was on facebook, rest was by text, started with me asking if she was ok, nothing else! I asked her if she wanted the link, didn't force it on her and really not fussed that this isn't for her. I am concerned for her and her approach. this isn't a mischief making post, I am a regular poster on this forum.
I am concerned about her, and in the past she has always commented on how she admires our approach to parenting our ds, maybe the link didn't help but I just sent her what worked for me. I don't think the link is the issue, I feel the CIO is. This doesn't sit right with me too what sort of person I know she is. As I said before I am concerned, not social services level concerned but concerned she needs support.
YANBU 6 weeks is very young, far too young imo for crying it out, i dont like CIO method at best of times i tried it when my DD was 7 months old but not for long! I think you did the right thing sending her some information but thats all you can do. It makes me feel sad knowing a baby is crying and i dont even know the woman
3 hours solid crying? Noone could seit through that and I doubt it could be sustained? Or 3 hours waking, settling etc?
Are you going to send a link of this thread to your friend too Op?
I can understand the temptation with CIO with a baby this young - I have an 11 week old who can be a total kraken for long periods and no matter what we do she doesn't stop! It is headache inducing and sometimes the stress of not knowing what to do for her is abysmal and I have to put her down so that my stress levels can reduce to the point where I can deal with it rationally again. This is not for more than 5 minutes though and she is usually left with someone else whilst this happens. It is now levelling out and is nowhere near as bad as it was! She must be in a bad place to resort to this and support may be what she needs rather than condemnation - I agree, she needs support.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Jolly, as a nurse we were saving babies born at an age when they could have been legal aborted , so for me 36 weeks will be fine.. Sorry if that causes some confusion.
I don't need to retrain.
Op sorry to dought your post but this woman is supposed to be a close friend so surprised you can sit through this level of abuse levelled at her( someone actually suggested posting her this link god forbid)
Stop posting about her and go round.
She may need a helping warm and friendly hand but not this level of abuse...
Are you her friend? If so stop posting and be one!
YANBU but if your friend feels she needs a structured approach she was never going to be open to what you sent her. She probably just feels judged by you now. It might be more helpful to her
and to her poor baby if you could direct her towards some info that will help her impose a routine of sorts but doesn't support the full CIO - so from memory, maybe something like the baby whisperer?
People are suggesting SS? Really?
How do we even know that she wasn't jokingly exaggerating, like you might say to someone tying their shoelaces and faffing about "three hours later..."
Bloody awful but there's not much you can do you have asked if she's ok, linked her some stuff etc
A friend of mine had a DC same time as I had one of mine, she told me once he was fed and changed she put him in his buggy and stuck him in the utility room as it was the furthest room from her bedroom and stuck her iPod on she thought I was mad as my DC all coslept with me and nursed during the night as many times as they needed to.
I am out of this one.
If posters feel good about abusing a new mum they have never met over a face book status then that's sad.
Leaving a 6 week old to cry for 3 hours is just fucking awful. I couldn't be friends with somebody like that.
Have you all forgotten how insane a six week baby can make you feel? Especially if it's your first. I think you're all giving this poor woman a terribly hard time without knowing all the facts. I've never left a child to cry for 3 hours but I doubt she did either. Can a 6 week old physically cry that long anyway??
I wouldn't set the dogs on her because of a facebook status ffs.
OP, I think you were right to send her the link. She may well look at it later when she's in a better place.
I wouldn't link her to this thread. She's been accused of all sorts!
ffs no I didn't mean the link to this thread, I meant the AP links!
Thebody you misunderstood! I am appalled at the horrendous things that have been written on this thread about a new mum and I'm very dubious about Ops claim that she started this thread out of concern.
"Can a 6 week old baby even cry for 3 hours?"
Yes - particularly if they are hungry, in pain or distressed.
This mum might be overwhelmed, have pnd - who knows. Chances are with a 6 week old she'll be damn knackered. Whatever state she is in, it's a horrible and cruel thing to put a 6 week old baby through.
CIO causes irreversible damage to pathways in the brain, esp. for such a young baby. This will lead to emotional and psychological problems in the future. It's classed as deprivation and deprived children don't recover or make up ground. Once the damage is done it can't be undone. Your friend is one stupid woman.
We did controlled crying, it worked for DS 1 but not so well for DS 2 as he had bad colic so was pretty grumpy anyway.
3 hours is excessive im pretty sure mine settled after less than 15 minutes - I certainly couldnt have ignored him for longer than that.
Hidden has a point though, CIO is dangerous, causes damage in the brain that cannot be repaired, especially if done so young.
Body I'm a midwife, and can assure you 36 weeks IS preterm. 37 - 42 weeks is considered term.
Poor baby. I had to leave my 14 week old DS to cry for a few minutes as I was on the toilet, and he cried himself to sleep. It broke my fucking heart.
I'm all for routine if that is what she wants, but that isn't the way to go about it. Feel so sad for that little baby.
Oh some horrible things are being said here about a new mum who's most probably feeling overwhelmed and needs support. None of you know the facts but don't let that stop you - just keep on with the nastiness.
Hidden does have a point. Doing CIO will have life long consequences for that poor baby. It's really shit parenting imo.
Being overwhelmed? Er, we all feel like that after having a baby, but that's still no excuse for wanton neglect, which is what this is. Leaving a 6 week old to cry for that length of time is nasty and neglectful. If this mother is so ill that she can't look after this child then she needs treatment and the child should be fostered out until the mother has recovered.
Just so glad I didn't know lots of you guys when I was a struggling new mum.
I am disgusted at this utter character assassination of a new mum we don't know.
Am reporting this thread and hope you are ashamed of yourselves.
Remember the vitriol directed at the nurse who killed herself over the Australian hoax on here.
Think on. Disgusting.
"Termination would be better than causing a lifetime of misery and suffering to another human being."
It was a facebook post. You know nothing about this woman or how she'll raise her child. You're filling in the blanks with your own experiences.
Personally think there should be greater guidance on these methods - and maybe some absolute do nots.
Imo cio in such young babies should be banned - not possible to police maybe - but a clear message should be sent out.
There is a point where bad parenting - even when well intentioned but through incorrect information - goes to far and cio in a baby who should be 2 weeks old is going to far. As it is there is nothing the op can do but that shouldn't be the case.
I realise that parenting choices vary but even those who advocate cio wouldn't in such a young baby for good reason.
Oh, ffs. There's a few of you who simply don't understand just how damaging CIO can be. I couldn't give a tinker's curse for the mother, just hearing about this baby is making me
At your limit and leaving a baby to cry for ten minutes whilst you scream into a pillow / make a cup of tea / sob down the phone to a friend = all completely understandable.
Leaving a baby to cry for three HOURS because you want to show them 'who is boss' is calculated, and entirely different.
"If this mother is so ill that she can't look after this child then she needs treatment and the child should be fostered out until the mother has recovered."
Absolute bollox. Who made you the expert in mental health & social services?
Yes, it is ugly, but not as ugly as child neglect, or are we choosing to avoid that term in case it's too
I'm no expert, I just care about children. If this mother is incapable of doing this then what do you suggest happens?
Honestly, you have no idea of the damage this can do
Babies are pretty resilient - one incident of CIO, even for 3 hours, will not cause attachment disorder and is not classed as deprivation or neglect.
Obviously it is a poor parenting choice, and this mother is probably suffering (where is the father?) but no need for hysteria.
Yes. I know about CIO and how damaging it can be and I would never advocate it for any child at any time. I'm just appalled that instead of taking a minute to consider this woman might be really suffering herself, you and others would rather do a character assassination, even when you don't know what's going on.
Yay for the sisterhood.
If somebody started an AIBU about an elderly person being knowingly left in distress by a relative for 3 hours, I wonder whether people would be going on about not knowing the facts. I expect people would be using the term neglect then.
Why is it unacceptable to treat an elderly person like this, but if it's a baby it's okay?
Gah, I give up.
Have it your own way, dole out sympathy for the poor 'new mummy', but remember that other people will be the ones to suffer as well as this child. He will be scarred for life and take others with him.
And what about the rest of us hidden who were babies in the day where the CIO method was the norm. Are you seriously saying that we're all walking around as damaged individuals with ADs?
The thing is the mother seems to think it is ok - it is likely this is advice she has been given - if she knew it was wrong or at best ill advised then I doubt she would post it on fb.
As new mums we all have advice given to us - and if it comes from someone you trust then you are likely to trust it. And when there are so many parenting styles and gurus it is easy to pick up advice that might be wrong - and that is easier to have happen in the blur of motherhood.
All the op can do is give her advice - and at the risk of pushing her friend away - but the friend might have mil/dm/dsis/ other friends all saying cio - if she isn't one to research and hears it enough why would she question it?
I've seen loads of threads on here where posters have said more facts were needed. No one said anything about it being ok to treat an old person this way. That's just daft.
I'd suggest that anyone that thinks its okay to leave a vulnerable two week old baby to cry for three hours because mum wants to be 'in charge' is damaged.
Same as anyone who was smacked as says "It didn't do me any harm" and thinks that they are fine as they smack their own children.
hidden "He will be scarred for life and take others with him."
I'd love a shot of that crystal ball of yours when you're done with it.
Exactly, eavesdropping it's as disgusting as the medical staff who used to operate on newborns without using any anaesthetic because they believed that they couldn't feel pain
Babies and children as treated like animals by some people.
We all had it tough when we first had a baby, but some of us don't pass that on to the child. It's called being a decent parent and some of us are and some of us aren't. Read it and weep, literally
I'm off to bed. Disgusted by how callous people can be towards such a young baby.
No one said anything about it being ok to treat an old person this way.
That was precisely my point. Nobody would think it okay to treat an old person this way. So why is CIO even legal?
Well, I guess the prisons are full already
Listen, I agree our child protection laws aren't great. I don't think anyone here is saying leaving a child to CIO is a good thing. My objection is to the nastiness being directed at a new mum none of us know, based on something she said on facebook.
But I'd also add that caring for an elderly relative and caring for a newborn are different. I've done both and both are stressful. But being a mother for the first time is a massive shock no one can prepare you for. Add into that crazy hormones, possible PND, and I don't think it takes a massive leap to see why some new mums sometimes make bad decisions. It doesn't mean she's a bad person or is going to be a terrible mum. It just means in that instance, she failed.
I have not looked at the evidence they used properly, but it could be a starting point for research.
The level of abuse and hate on here is awful.
Controlled crying made illegal!!! WTAF..
Ignorant ranting so scary. As said have reported this thread as feel op may have outed her friend.
Makes me sad tonight to be a mumsnetter to be honest.
I'm sorry you feel that way, body. FWIW I'm glad to have your rational voice on here.
What- why are you reporting things? Shock, horror people do not like small, defenceless children being so despicably treated. This person is an adult, a grown woman who is not sobbing in the corner about how she can't cope but bragging on a social networking site about how cruelly she is treating the baby she gave birth to 6 weeks ago. 'welcome to the world little baby, see you in 3 hours when you've learnt who the boss is!'. The only victim in this scenario is the baby.
If she actually left the baby crying for 3 hours (which I don't believe for one minute) then it was a very stupid thing to do if she's planning to have some sort of routine in place as surely after 3 hours she'd have been just about due to wake it up again for a feed.
I suspect "3 hours" means "what felt like a bloody long time" and is largely bravado. Silly woman though posting something like this on Facebook. It doesn't exactly make her sound like mother of the year.
I remember the 6-8 week period with both my DC as being the most harrowing, bleakest, living-on-my-final-nerve, destroyed by sleep exhaustion period that I have ever gone through. I honestly didn't think it would be as bad the second time around, but it was. Hideous.
I have total sympathy for anyone in the depths of that. You're barely rational.
I can't imagine leaving a baby to cry alone for 3 hours, though. 10 minutes, at a desperate stretch while you scream into a pillow. And then beat yourself up about, forever more.
Posting about it in Facebook seems like a really strange thing to do, to me. I can't relate to that at all, and adds in a weird, calculated sort of response to the problem, which makes me uncomfortable. But then I suppose if you're one of those people who live their life through FB and post every time a thought pops into you head, maybe it's totally normal for you.
I actually do think that there should be some sort of awareness campaign around Crying It Out in very young babies. They promote breastfeeding, there's awareness around Shaken Baby Syndrome. Co-sleeping, etc, Why not some awareness-raising around this?
I do think there is some hysteria on this thread which is OTT, but there's no denying that an infant crying for hours on end is not good. Not good at all. So many of us are totally clueless when it comes to babies. And it's not our fault. Nothing can prepare you. Add into that the fact that there is so much conflicting advice around, and it's hardly surprising that many people don't know what to do for the best.
That poor baby. And the poor Mum too, to actually believe this is in any way a good, productive thing to do.
Omg, why do some thick as shit parents not realise that crying is a tiny babies only method of communication.
It reminds me of that heartbreaking RSPCC ad, about the baby who learns not to cry because nobody comes, imagine being that tiny baby crying for 3 hours, you need to establish security behind parent and child before you can do anything like that.
And yeah any parent who lets a tiny baby cry for 3 hours straight, is a fucking headcase.
Sisterhood has nothing to do with it. I hear about a possibly stressed out new mum leaving a 6 week old to cry for 3 hours and I know who I feel empathy for. I can remember being a stressed out new mum with a colicy ds. I cant remember being a baby. But I can imagine feeling hungry like pain or being wet and uncomfortable or cramped with colic, being unable to do anything about it but cry, and the one person I'm relying on to help me not coming. For 3 hours. Eventually falling asleep distressed, dehydrated and aching. While mum updates on facebook how "shes the boss"
I bet most of you with the outrage had babies who still didn't sleep after 3 months. The British way of letting the baby, and even toddler, run the whole family is very sad. A baby can put itself back to sleep between sleep cycles if you just step away and stop swooping every second.
Not responding to every whimper and hoping a baby learns to self-settle ... and leaving an infant to cry alone for three hours ...
...ah feck it - if someone actually needs the difference explained to them, it's just not worth engaging...
hiddenhome your post is foul and I've reported it.
As for you OP I hope you're no 'friend' of mine...
I can't believe that some people think that this is acceptable behaviour towards a newborn baby .
If she put it as her fb status then yes she may well be exaggerating but to say it was to 'show who's boss' just proves that she had every intention of doing this and will quite possibly carry on.
I could never let my dd cio at any age because I just think it is cruel. I would be phoning her hv so that they were aware of the situation and could visit if they felt it necessary.
Tricycletops what exactly did the op do wrong to suggest she is a bad friend??
From what I read she contacted her friend to ask if she was ok instead of reacting to her status publicly on fb. From this a conversation appears to have happened about being unhappy with hearing her baby cio so op offered her an alternative, which had worked for her, so she make up her own mind whether or not to carry on with cio.
This seems pretty kind, caring and helpful to me.
It'sallyourownfault, I bet your 'the boss' in your house aren't you? Some of 'us British' are able to read and have realised that it is a monumental mistake to let a new born baby CIO!
I also doubt that the baby cried for 3 hours. I bet mum is struggling and no I'm not making excuses for her if she did actually leave her newborn to cry for 3 hours but I'm trying to have some empathy.
OP, is she a good friend? Can you talk to her, find out if she's struggling and point her in the direction of some professional support?
I love the way new mums get such good support, oh no wait....
OP is pissed off that her "advice" was rejected and so has come to do a self righteous rant and rip her "friend" to bits, lovely
Sorry you're not 'your' in previous post.
If someone was in the depths of PND I don't think they'd be bragging on Facebook.
What support does the newborn baby get after they have gone through that harrowing experience?
Tricycletops what exactly did the op do wrong to suggest she is a bad friend??
Submitted her for character assassination on the internet? Made no attempt to defend her from people saying she's a "fucking cunt" who "should have had a termination"?
This thread is revolting, and the sad thing is it's totally pointless. If the woman in question read it do you really think it would make her think "gosh, I might be wrong?" Or would she think "fuck you all" and bugger off to nethuns for a spot of "u no bubba best lol!!" ? All this will do is make a few people think twice about looking for support here - I know I am...
If she's struggling, maybe pop round with books/printouts of settling methods (either alternatives to CIO or CIO but with the guidelines), make her a cuppa and see if you can both settle the baby together.
Obviously call her first to offer, she may be perfectly happy with her choice and not want any help.
Personally I feel bad for the baby IF she's being accurate on Facebook, but a) I've never been in the position of being sleep-deprived with a baby so couldn't imagine what it must be like, and b) there are countless ways to supposedly mess up your baby for life, I've been told I'm setting my 5-month old up for a life of clinginess and dependency by co-sleeping and never leaving her with other people so hers could turn out absolutely fine.
Itsallyourownfault I'd rather comfort my son at every opportunity now, than pay for the therapy he'll need later. If attending to what your child needs and putting them first is suddenly British, I'll hang a fucking flag from every window.
Or maybe we're just educated enough to realise that sometimes as an adult, you come second when there is a defenseless new person who is unable to communicate other than crying, who relies on you to be there for them.
Or maybe it's the British thing.
I think this is awful. My DS is 16 months not 6 weeks, and I still wouldn't leave him to cry beyond waiting a couple of mins to see if he is just settling back or waking up properly.
Children who are responded to in a generally sensitive and responsive way do not feel their extreme helplessness in the world, in fact they feel like they have a good deal of agency over it. This makes them confident about enjoying and exploring the world, and they don't have to waste any developmental energy dealing with anxiety.
Children who are ignored get very anxious about why their attempts to engage are not working. They feel their helplessness in the world and become depressed, knowing that attention and responsiveness is conditional on it fitting in with the parent rather than vice versa.
So far from me being boss, my DS is boss, for the moment. He is in theory helpless, but actually everything gets put on hold to respond to him. This is because he needs it, at this age.
The real trick with parenting is to gradually shift the balance as the baby grows into toddler then preschooler, so that you become much more of the boss and the child is expected to fit in much more. When my DS has language, and a more mature concept of space and time, then we will start asking more of him.
We brought up my oldest, DD, in the same way, and I am convinced it was the right way. She is such a confident lovely kind hearted kid, even if I say so myself.
I really can't understand why this thread is being described as disgusting.
I can only imagine that a few nerves are being touched amongst those who left their own babies to cry.
Well said, Bump. Well said.
Well I wouldn't leave a six week old to cry for three hours, but I suspect she didn't either. Long term CIO is damaging, but who is to say she will do it again? If one instance of prolonged crying leaves you neesing therapy as an adult, you might have bigger ishoos.
I imagine she scoffed at tge unconditional parenting AP stuff because it is so far from what she is doing, maybe a gentle middle ground would have been better.
And if you were really concerned about her and her baby, you wouldn't have posted it on AIBU. By all means be judgy (what she did is bad, if she did it) but at least have the decency to own your judgyness.
Tricycle - I'd stopped posting as thought it had got so nasty and requested thread removal. I have said nothing other than being worried about friend. I've also sought to access support in rl.
Tricycle - I'd stopped posting as thought it had got so nasty and requested thread removal. I have said nothing other than being worried about friend. I've also sought to access support in rl.
Whether the woman knows it's wrong is another matter but this is abusive behaviour.
If you know who her HV is OP then PLEASE report it to them - even just the relevant office/team. It's abusive treatment of a new baby. Her attitude about making him know who is boss is just terrible.
Please flag it to them. This sort of thing happens all over the place but you can do something to try and help this poor kid before he is damaged too much.
x posts - well done Rose. Good luck. You don't have to tell the HV who you are.
I don't think this thread should be removed just because a few posters think leaving a newborn to cry for 3 hours is fine. Many more people don't and they should be allowed to say so!
I really think midwives should issue guidance verbally and in writing to all new mums about controlled crying and what is and what isn't appropriate. There are still too many mums who believe it is fine to ignore a newborn for hours on end to show them who is boss and it is cruel and damaging.
'If one instance of prolonged crying leaves you neesing therapy as an adult, you might have bigger ishoos.'
Yes you might well have other issues, given that you have a parent who was willing to do that to you. What else is going to happen to this poor little mite in the name of control?
I agree that you should report to her HV
I think leaving a small baby to cry is appalling and not far off abusive. I am not being over emotive, I have 3 dc and am pretty script generally but I have never done this (all 3 sleep really well).
It goes against every instinct a a parent so lets hope that having tried it once he won't do it again. I am not an AP type really but CIO is very wrong for small babies. Toddlers, who are capable (just) of having an agenda and messing you around? Maybe, though I still wouldnt do it. Babies have no agenda.
I am all for structure and routine, for the parents sanity as much as anything, but controlled crying or whether they call it nowadays is awful (and aren't there proven links to attachment disorders?)
The thing is, chances are she WILL do it again. This isn't somebody who has done something out of desperation/sleep deprivation and then felt dreadful about it the next day - she's boasting on Facebook about being the boss. It is a completely calculated strategy to put her own needs above those of her baby.
She might only need to do it once or twice more though. A baby that young will quickly learn that there's no point crying, because nobody ever comes.
She has probably got people IRL (maybe her own parents) telling her to do this and is taking their advice seriously.
The number of times I have heard people say 'don't give in to him, let him know who's in charge' when babies were crying is outstanding. You read it on here too - 'My mum says I am spoiling the baby, help' and everyone goes 'pick him up, your mum is daft'
But this one obviously slipped through the net
I left my newborn to cry for 45mins on advice of baby health nurse. Next day 30mins. Third day she went to sleep right away and kept that routine. I genuinely thought I was doing the right thing.
Sounds like the mother is possibly depressed and needs help assessing her situation instead of leaving her baby to cry. What a lazy approach to motherhood. She is obviously not thinking clearly.
I never left any of my dc to cio and I certainly don't believe for a minute that ops friend did either.
More a case of sour grapes from the op when her advice was rejected.
But, I certainly won't buy into the mass hysteria on this thread and am amazed at the lack of common sense and ability to read between the lines at what op has written.
What do you think now ?
45 mins and 30 mins twice did no harm I'm sure, but I am staggered that there are still people around that think it is ok to routinely do this. Self selling is the best way to her babies to sleep once they are a bit older. At the beginning the best way is for them to be constantly near their families IMO.
I do remember how hard it was first time round with all the conflicting advice but I think my instinct was to keep my ds1 close and have lots of cuddles, I couldn't listen to any newborn crying for 10 mins never mind 3 hours. I am really not the sappy type either. As someone else said, the trick is to shift control as they get older. My older dc are now quite happy to go to childcare while I am working etc and know we crack the whip with homework etc. but I think they know, from small, that I they need us (fall over, sick at school etc) we will drop everything and be there,
I haven't done everything right but in glad they have the confidence to start going out into the world, knowing we are there for them in the background. Not saying one or two controlled crying episodes would have changed this bit routinely doing it might have done.
So he is 2 weeks old corrected? And she is doing CIO? With a baby who isn't even aware he & his motehr are separate beings yet?
I am usually of the "let them do what is best for them" camp, wrt parenting, but this is cruel & will just teach the baby that no one comes when he needs them.
2 weeks, way too early!
a baby who isn't even aware he & his motehr are separate beings yet
Oft cited on MN, but how do they actually know this? I mean, how do they know that babies are even conscious that they were ever part of their mothers? That would be some deduction really, wouldn't it?
YABVU by the use of the word "friend" in your title.
You're no friend of this woman... a friend would have helped, rather than send them bollocksy propaganda for their preferred parenting fad and then come on here for 8 pages of witch hunting, labelling her a child abuser, suggesting reporting her to social services, and god knows what other vileness she's been labelled without being able to defend herself against. We have one side of the story here and to be frank I don't believe half of it - nor do I believe the "OMG I'M SITTING CRYING AT THAT POOR LITTLE BABY" crap people like to pull on this.
And if we're not allowed to use phrases like "disabled child" "downs syndrome child" etc.... I'm going to bloody well take offence to "premature baby" - they're a baby born prematurely - their prematurity isn't their entire fucking identity in the same way that disabled people fight being labelled in terms of their disability.
And one of the reasons I would have taken exception to a spamload of attachment parenting stuff landing in my inbox - would have been because by that point, as a consequence of prematurity - there'd already have been a fair few separations between me and my baby, so sending stuff like that would have been like pouring acid onto an open wound.... but you didn't think about that did you?
I'm not even sure a 6 week old baby would cry for 3 hours, I left my 8 week old ds happily playing under the baby gym and went for a very quick shower (I couldn't hear him because of the water) I came back to find him all red with tears all over his face but quiet he had obviously been crying but had stopped, I had been away for 6 or 7 mins and he had given up crying (poor baby, I called my mum saying I think babyhoney has learnt that no one comes when he cries, she told me to stop being silly)
I couldn't physically listen to a baby crying for more than a couple of moments before milk would start soaking through my top, since becoming a mum it physically hurts when ds cries, I am not sure if I am normal and it is abnormal to be able to listen to a baby crying or the other way round.
having said that op i think yabu, there are babies starving to death to worry about. Many people were left to cry as babies.
Shocking if it actually happened. Facebook isnt real life. This thread is horrible.
And the baby isn't 2 weeks corrected. 37 weeks is term.
I don't think this thread should be removed just because some people seem to think that ruling by control is an acceptable way to parent.
OP I hope by real life support you have contacted her HV team.
Cool your fucking jets Miaow. No need to vent your ire at the OP, she ISN'T the one casting aspersions on her friend - it's the rest of us that are disgusted that a 6 week old baby is being left to cry for 3 hours.
The OP thought se was helping. From her own post she didn't send them bollocksy propaganda for their preferred parenting fad and then come on here for 8 pages of witch hunting. She her friend and her friend agreed:
I asked her if she wanted the link, didn't force it on her and really not fussed that this isn't for her. I am concerned for her and her approach
You are ranting at the wrong person.
Thebody - of course I am entitled to say I feel cio should be banned.
Just like as a society we decided smacking should be illegal we can discuss discipline techniques - eg cio to discipline sleep in a baby and draw a line at what is and is not acceptable - perhaps a minimum age for cio.
As it is it gets the go ahead to do in such a young baby eg before 4-6months as there are no guidelines - just advice.
In a discussion re cio in a young baby I am allowed to state my opinion just as you are yours -I haven't attacked the mother.
'Facebook isn't real life'?? If you mean it is life in an exagerrated form, well yes it often is but not for all, especially the thick ones who use it to update every last minute of their life, almost as it happens. If she is using FB to boast about her exemplar parenting than she is of a mindset that is worrying to say the least. Either scenarios are not good.
Miaow, I'm not sure why you are in disbelief that people are horrified to hear about this method being used on a small baby. Some people FEEL compassion for fellow human beings that are small, vulnerable and don't have a voice in this situation other than the NATURAL one of crying but that is/has been ignored. It seems by all accounts that she is trying to be a friend to this woman but she has ignored the advice for whatever reasons. If she was clueless you might have a point but she's not. As I said before she is an adult she can make decisions, choices as to how this works out. The baby has no choice. She is abusing her position as a parent.
honeytea, in leaving a newborn to cry for 3 hours she WOULD be starving the baby- that is the whole point. Your baby may not cry beyond 7 minutes but babies are all different just like adult human beings. People seem to forget that babies are human beings when they're banging on about the Mothers' rights. They're not little puppies to be trained in knowing who is boss.
If people don't like to hear the truth about their shit decisions then that's their problem, you have to deal with the truth when you're an adult even if it hurts.
I personally don't want a MN that has censored debate to this extent. People cry, 'nastiness' well wake up people it is pretty fucking nasty leaving a baby to cry for 3 hrs and then boasting about it.
What... questioning that the OP is indeed a "friend" of the person because they've run on here for 8 pages of vitriol hurling at the other person is wrong?
And I'm willing to bet that the "offered links" were "ooooh I've got some really useful stuff that helped us"... and then the poor woman gets 97 pages of "if your baby's ever been apart from you you've damaged their brain irreparably" emotional head-screwage - which is just what you need when you're already dealing with any guilt issues from delivering prematurely, births not going right, stays on hospital wards or in neo-natal units (hard to be attached to a plastic box with a baby inside 24/7 when they'll boot you off the unit when they're sick of you for a while).
I find the "ooooh I'm sobbing for that poor baby" grief by proxy shite pathetic - you're not... you're posting your response and then going to investigate the contents of the biscuit barrel and make a cup of tea - you're not sat there melodramatically weeping at your keyboard like you're making out in an effort to look good to others.
I dont believe the baby was left for 3 straight hours.
CIO isn't my thing but I wouldn't be 'worried' or 'concerned' if anyone else was doing this. Unless there were other indicators of actual neglect of course.
Not going to read all 8 pages of comments, but yes this makes me very sad that a new mother would leave their newborn to cry for that long. What was she doing during this time? Was she there beside the baby, soothing, rocking, trying to calm him down? Did she keep going back to try and settle him? Or was it shut the door and leave him to it until he passes out from exhaustion? Really hope not the latter as for 3 hours that's not CIO that's neglect.
BUT it also sounds very much like this new mother is not coping. It sounds like PND or the beginnings of. I really struggled with my second baby. She didn't nap at all during the day and would spend most of her waking hours screaming. I felt like I was going snap as whatever I tried she wouldn't sleep. On one occasion when she was about 10 weeks old (when I felt like I was on the verge of breaking down) I left her in her cot for about 45mins and cried as she cried. I hoped and hoped she would fall asleep. She didn't. I felt utterly ashamed of myself (and now looking at my beautiful and happy 7mo I can't believe I did it to her ) and never did it again. But that was at a point when I felt like I couldn't cope and was at rock bottom and it was sheer desperation. Could this be how this mum is feeling??
I'm not totally against CIO as for some babies it works. But I think they need to be a few MONTHS old not a few weeks. I actually did do it with my first baby when he was about 4 months old because he got it. I only left him for 15mins and that was the longest I ever had to do it for. For him, it worked. For my DD it didn't and I knew that it was never going to work with her so I did a different approach.
Miaow you're so right to consider this mother might already be dealing with all sorts of complex emotions due to the baby arriving early.
Also really like your biscuit barrel comment. Very insightful.
Well Miaow, I can't get this out of my head today at all. I keep coming back to this thread, both literally and figuratively. I can't comprehend leaving such a tiny infant to cry for such an extended period. It's just wrong. I hope the OP contacted the HV so support can be offered - emotional and/or parenting support.
And, I've had no biscuits.
Some of us are probably crying about it. It makes me want to cry certainly though I haven't. But it is making me feel really sad and wanting to DO something about the situation.
What relevance does it even have, whether people are crying about it or not? So what?
Three hours is too long and six weeks is far to young, BUT when Everyone around you has stories of ten /11/12 month old babies who don't sleep and feed all day and night it's understandable that some will be determined not have their baby do that.
I'm sure three hours was an exaggeration and if it wasn't then you won't be the only one who will be saying things to her. I think the AP Link was a bit ott perhaps done middle ground advice would have gone down better. I hope she doesn't continue to leave that baby crying at such a young age but there's probably alot more too it than what she posted. God knows after trying hours of cuddling feeding , calpol, sshing patting etc eith no success I have on occasion gone sod it given them s few kind and viola asleep. I don't believe that she did nothing for three hours no ones that heartless.
A few mins- iPhone fail
Some people sadly are that heartless which is why we have a neglect and abuse problem in the UK.
Ok, hopefully no one the op and the rest of us have as friends is that heartless.
I don't think it really matters whether or not MNetters are crying or raiding the biscuit barrel. It is the baby most people are concerned about, not how many tears have been shed by Mnetters.
I could never ever do it, and I don't understand a mother who can, to be honest. Either they really need help or they have a heart of stone.
Dear god, is there really any need for the keening and wailing and competitive upset?
I don't believe for a single second that this woman left her 6 week old baby completely alone and screaming for 3 hours. Don't believe a word of it.
Not one person on here apart from the OP knows this woman at all. Yet you are all happy to condemn her as an abuser because she said something overly defensive.
Have none of you ever said something daft when you felt criticised or pushed into a corner? I certainly have.
I've heard no mention of a father at all so can only presume she is an LP. Can any of you imagine what it must be like to be a lone parent to a newborn baby? I'm not surprised she's being defensive I'd be she feels judged every step she takes.
OP if you really do want to be a good friend, and you haven't started this thread just to show what a wonderful person you are for being so terribly upset, then go round and see her. Hold the baby for 10 minutes so she can have a shower. Make her a cup of tea, maybe even talk to her in a completely non-judgemental way rather than as the parent she so obviously admires and offer to go round in the evening a few times to give her some moral support.
As for all the "I'm so upset", "well I'm in tears", "well I feel sick", "well I've actually been sick", "well I feel faint at the horror" nonsense, words fail me.
As for all the "I'm so upset", "well I'm in tears", "well I feel sick", "well I've actually been sick", "well I feel faint at the horror" nonsense, words fail me.
I did a proper LOL at that.
But this is Mumsnet. What would it be without a bit of hysterical over-reaction?
Actually, come to think of it, the frequency of hysterical over-reactions to things is the main reason I post on here only 25% as much as I used to. Most of you are all mad/wrong.
Felnel, yes they are, aren't they?
It would be hilarious if it wasn't actual grown adults!
I need to get back to DD and can't read the thread, but send her a link to this (I'm sure it's been suggested already). Better still, put it on her FB status.
I personally think her post was a load of bollocks.
I don't think anyone would leave a newborn to cry for 3 hours and then post about it on bragbook.
She probably doesn't understand the term CIO maybe she meant that she was trying to get the baby to go down to sleep for 3 hours and is proud that she persevered despite some crying?!
Would a baby that young even have the energy to cry constantly for 3 hours?
Maybe you need to stop taking people's stupid facebook comments as an absolute testament to what has happened, not sure many people who abuse children would advertise the fact to there 'friends'
I also think that sending her articles about AP was very patronising.
Some people have very strange
and annoying ideas re. 'showing the baby who is boss' and 'spoiling' babies. It makes me feel very angry but I'm sure they will slag me off for being a 'soft touch' and 'making a rod for my own back' etc etc. When it comes to parenting it pays just to keep schtum about other people's ideas and methods. They won't thank you for them.
Please do NOT ever link her to this thread. There have been some vile posts on here, hysterical doesn't even come close. Apparently, if you don't call this mum a cunt, it means you condone letting her letting her newborn CIO.
I personally highly doubt that she left her baby crying for 3 hours without any intervention. People have a tendancy to massively over-exxagerate things on FB to get sympathy and attention.
I went through hideous sleep deprivation with DD2 and even at my lowest ebb I could not deal with the crying for more than minutes at a time.
What I imagine the 3 hours refers to is how long the baby took to fully settle, I imagine that there were periods of quiet, whimpering etc and other bits of full blown crying.
I genuinely think there is no way the vast majority of people could leave a baby screaming its lungs out for 3 hours, I also doubt that a newborn baby would have enough energy to scream it out for 3 hours and would have fallen asleep much before that. I know I am making some huge assumptions here but I find her FB post a bit hard to believe.
I don't agree with CIO for a baby that young or even much older and as others say I wouldn't leave an older child crying for that long.
Vodka just seen you pretty much said what I was thinking already.
I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that baby was crying for 3 hours.
*What I imagine the 3 hours refers to is how long the baby took to fully settle, I imagine that there were periods of quiet, whimpering etc and other bits of full blown crying.
I genuinely think there is no way the vast majority of people could leave a baby screaming its lungs out for 3 hours, I also doubt that a newborn baby would have enough energy to scream it out for 3 hours and would have fallen asleep much before that.*
I think that is what happened. It probably wasn't 3 hours either; I bet that was a massive exaggeration by either the OP, or the Facebook friend.
'I've heard no mention of a father at all so can only presume she is an LP. Can any of you imagine what it must be like to be a lone parent to a newborn baby?' er...yes and I imagine many of us are in a similar position.
It's bloody hard.
Miaow, there is a difference between showing compassion and self - obssessed melodrama. Save your custard creams for your support group for parents who neglect their newborn babies!
What I find difficult to understand is how someone CAN'T understand the term CIO. It is pretty obvious what Cry It Out means unless you haven't two brain cells to rub together. Anyway, the OP said that had texted that her friend was not very keen on doing it but would anyway. So there is no misunderstanding.
Well if there are many people on here who know what it's like to be a lone parent to a newborn I would suggest they quit the hysteria and think a bit more rationally.
I don't, my DS was 4mo when I became an LP so the newborn stage was over by then.
I do remember feeling very defensive though, if I'm honest I still can be if I think someone is judging me for their own gratification. I'm not presuming the mother in question is feeling like that but it's a pretty safe assumption going by some of the hand-wringing crap being spouted on here.
Competing over who is the most upset about a half story that is highly unlikely to be what it seems is not what I would term rational behaviour.
Sometimes the things people post on FB aren't a completely full account of their lives. Crazy thought I know, but it's true.
Reading the OP again this is why I hate the books that propose that the best thing for a baby is a routine.
It kind of filters through to the possibly less educated people on the planet and they start doing it off the cuff and too early and so on - like people giving a child food at 6 weeks old.
It makes me so angry that people try and promote these routine ideas to make money when it's nothing to do with the welfare of babies whatsoever - vis all the brilliant, happy and well adjusted good sleepers out there who never ever had a routine imposed on them in their short life.
It's all BOLLOCKS. <feels a bit better>
I'm not being hysterical at all. And I missed the bit where there was a competition. Sorry.
Yes it can make you feel very vulnerable, and alone and desperate. I don't get what that has to do with doing CIO though?
Great minds whoneeds, although you put it far more eloquently than me.
I agree that baby books are bollocks, I also don't agree with CIO. I agree that the mother must feel very stressed and very vulnerable, that's why I believe what she's said is nothing more than defensiveness.
What I don't believe is that this baby was left alone and crying for 3hours.
36 weeks is moderately premature, Cansu.
I see Randall - yes you may be right on that, we don't know what exactly happened.
I do think CIO with a 6 week old is verging on abuse though - sorry. I don't mean intentional abuse as I said earlier on. But I think an intervention is probably required by the HV or such if this poor gal thinks it's the answer.
It isn't just the fact that the baby will be emotionally affected. It could quite easily be dangerous if she does actually leave it by itself for any length of time, crying - they can get into a terrible state, vomit, choke, etc etc.
I really hope her difficulty in carrying on with it (as referenced in OP) serves to stop her from doing this again. I really do. And you never know.
What I'm trying to say is that babies have died from being left to cry it out.
That's obviously FAR from the OP's friend's intentions but I think she does need to be made aware how dangerous it is.
Those who are saying they don't believe someone would leave a baby crying for 3 hours, do you not believe that any neglect of babies or children happens?
In all honesty I just think it was a horrible thread to start. It was started purely to judge and to feel superior not to find ways to support a friend.
Lots of people prefer to get their babies into a routine as soon as possible and it isn't always a bad idea. It's not how I chose to do it but that doesn't mean my way is right and theirs is wrong.
I absolutely agree that this mother needs support but this thread is not going to help anyone.
Donder, not based on one Fb comment, no.
Yes but there are some absolute rights and wrongs in parenting, it is not all subjective. Leaving a newborn baby to cry for 3 hrs is neglect, no question! Equally, people DO abuse children willingly or through ignorance and yes people do put all sorts of morally questionable stuff on the internet- of course they do.
I think the OP has been scared off, as although the majority view was in support of her thinking some posters questioned her idea of friendship and I would imagine the few negative responses have stuck in her memory. Some things in life question whether you know someone at all. Perhaps she was surprised her friend would do something so morally repugnant and is trying to canvass opinion as to whether she was right to feel that.
Who said leaving a baby to cry for 3 hours was ok?
The OP's friend did - on FB.
I said I was going to kill dp the other day
It is amazing how many people think newborns somehow need training like puppies. That poor baby. I bet there is a
jealous man in the background driving that situation.
Gish there are some judgemental people on hear. Leave the poor woman alone to bring her child up how she likes. It's no one else's business.
No, she didn't, and unless you read it yourself you don't know what she wrote, none of us do.
The only information we have is what the OP has shared. Which is that the mother wrote something on FB regarding using CIO to establish a routine and that in further discussion via text she said she was really struggling with CIO but that she finally got her DS to sleep after 3 hours.
If, as she suggests, the OP merely wants to help and support her friend then I would suggest perhaps asking for suggestions as to how to help. Pages and pages of hysterical hand-wringing does not help anyone.
I have been in mumsnet for years now and I can't remember a post that has attracted so much hatred, vitriol, assumptions and someone saying this baby would have been better off aborted.
Hang on I can.
The mass of ridicule and contempt heaped on the nurse who killed herself after taking the Australian phone call. Think on.
Op I think your friend posted a stupid FB comment and this is where it's led.
Please God she doesn't come on mumsnet for help and advice and realises that these comments are about her.
I have also been posting on MN for years and there has always been strong opinions put forward without calls for censoring this and censoring that. MN is about more than just being a support network.
Have not 'has' in post above.
Hi, I have backed off this thread not because some people disagreed with me but because how others went in agreeing with me. Some of the language about my friend and a new mum was quite frightening! I was originally trying to gauge if I was over reacting as I know I am quite left wing in my views. I don't agree with cio at any age, but that's just what works for me. I don't feel I am an expert parent or experienced enough to judge others style or approaches. I was at the beginning just very concerned she had chosen this approach so early and worried it indicated maybe she was struggling? I would never dream of showing her this thread and very confident she doesn't use mumsnet.
I have spoken to closer friends to friend and offered practical rl support not based on my views but helping her get some rest.
In hindsight it was ill judged to post on here, however I never expected the level of responses or viciousness of them. This isn't a bad or neglectful mother, this is someone I am worried about.
Just to say, Thebody you are wrong, i don't know when you did your training but I did my nursing/midwifery training post 2007 and we were always taught 37 is classed as term. 36 weeks was always treated as premature in both of the hospitals I've worked in and both were different NHS trusts.
Also in answer to the question, the CIO is ok after a certain time, not at 6 weeks ever. However, i wouldn't jump straight into calling ss untill I'd established the facts a bit more soon. I've said I'm going to smother my OH in his sleep because of his snoring (with a massive LOL) on the status. He is still alive.
I don't think the posts have been vicious Rosegarden, just concerned. And rightly so.
I think you've come back with a great post there OP and I apologise for judging you harshly.
We've all started ill-judged threads and made ill-judged remarks, we're human, it happens. To come back and be gracious about it is not so common though so big respect to you for that.
I wish your friend well, the first few weeks must be horrendous with a bad sleeper. I thank my lucky stars my DS was so easy, there but for the grace of God go I and all that! (I'm not religious but you know what I mean)
You're right, lemonmuffin, calling someone a cunt isn't vicious. Advocating abortion for this child isn't vicious.
So the OP has just said her friend isn't a bad or neglectful mother so can we all stop slagging off this person none of us has actually met?
RoseGarden, You sound like a very confused person. You posted in AIBU, if you wanted more practical help why didn't you post in 'parenting'? Perhaps if you had updated a little more often your thoughts would've been clear?
If she left her newborn to CIO, if indeed she did, then it is wrong, don't you feel sorry for this baby- if this is TRUE?
oh ffs some people just want a fucking argument.
What was the motivation for starting the thread in the first place?
She IS a bad and neglectful mother and a nasty hideous person. I'll reserve my sympathy for the poor poor baby who is unfortunate enough to have this woman as its mother.
The hysteria in this thread would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.
I was prepared to let our DDs CIO for, I dunno, 15 minutes or so...once they got to be about 5-6 months old.
By then, I knew them well enough to be able to tell the difference between when they were genuinely distressed, and when they were in that I'm grizzling because I'm really tired, and grumpy, and can't quite just drop off yet mode.
A friend was happy to do CIO with her new baby - and, hard as nails though I generally am, I found it very hard to bear. We stayed with them, when her baby was about 10 weeks old, and the baby was basically put in the cot at 6pm, and always allowed to cry themselves to sleep. Sometimes it took nearly an hour
It's the only time we've ever come close to arguing, because I couldn't bear to hear them crying for so long, and found it genuinely upsetting. I offered a few times to go and try to settle the baby - but this then really annoyed my friend.
dunnitnow - What do you think now ? 45 mins and 30 mins twice did no harm I'm sure, but I am staggered that there are still people around that think it is ok to routinely do this.
Thanks for asking. Now I realise how disconnected I was from my newborn. I was frantic to do everything right and had no confidence in my instinct.
With my second child I could not bear to let him cry, however he cried and cried all the same. One night he cried pretty much for 5hrs straight although I rocked etc. I had to admit defeat, close doors, turn on music and get in the bath as I could no longer cope with his crying. Which leaves me wondering whether it might have been better to do the CIO with him early on. A lot less crying all up. But different children & temperaments. I think on the whole we do our best with what we know at the time.
Imaginethat - no. You did right. I have a crier too - my third baby - and it's been a shock after a very placid ds2.
They cry for a reason, and you did your absolute best and it just got too much. There have been times I've sat there with ds3, in despair at him ever stopping but being with him and doing my best was important I think, even if I couldn't physically help him to stop.
It tailed off after he was about 4 or 5 weeks and got much easier. I have my doubts that CIL actually stops babies crying at all - it just teaches them that no one comes and that's got to be a bad thing I think at a very young age. It's not like the baby never cries again after it's been left to cry it out one time.
Imagine - you did your best in a very difficult situation (we've all been there) and tried everything you could, taking into account your child's personality, age, temperment etc. That is very different from blindly deciding to teach a newborn who's boss (if that is indeed what OPs friend was/is doing) imo.
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