To send this email to Tommee Tippee and be appalled that the advice they are giving?

(115 Posts)
TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 13:15:17

Copied and pasted from the email I have just sent...

"I visited your consumer site, as a parent, but I am also a Midwife.

I am contacting you because you are giving incorrect advice regarding the correct way to prepare infant formula.

Your website states:

'Health guidelines recommend you make up bottles one at a time. It may be easier to store the cooled, boiled water sealed in the bottles and then add the formula at feeding time.'

This goes directly against Department of Health Guidelines. A copy of which can be found here:

www.dh.gov.uk/health/2012/08/guide-to-bottle-feeding/

The correct advice is:

'To reduce the risk of infection, make up each feed as your
baby needs it, using boiled water at a temperature of 70 o
C or above. The step-by-step guide shows you how to do this.
Water at this temperature will kill any harmful bacteria that
may be present. Remember to let the feed cool before you
give it to your baby.'

This is followed up with the following information:

'Do not boil water in advance and store it in sterilised bottles
in the fridge for later use. The water needs to be hot when the
powdered infant formula is added, to kill any harmful bacteria
that may be present.'

Please can you explain why you are advising parents directly against the government guidelines for making up first stage formulas.
I would like to know where you found the information to display on your website.

There are some formulas which require preparing with cooled boiled water, but these are specialist milks, and the majority of parents and carers will not be using these milks.

The advice you are providing can and does make babies ill. I am very shocked that you would give such ill-informed advice.

I would appreciate a speedy response to my question."

Was I being unreasonable? I'm quite annoyed at them really! Am off to see what other bottle manufacturers websites say...! One woman mission here!

galwaygirl Tue 26-Feb-13 13:20:40

Wow, YAsoNBU.
I think there's a huge problem with lack of information about formula feeding in the UK but can't quite believe they are giving out such dangerous information!

notso Tue 26-Feb-13 13:34:15

I think there needs to be a better campaign about safely preparing formula.
Not one new parent I have spoken to in RL is aware that you have to use hot water, most have cooled boiled water then top it up with boiling water to make the milk ready to drink. Most of them say
"the midwife/health visitor/my Mum/Gran/Friend said this was ok"

stoatie Tue 26-Feb-13 13:41:51

I find it worrying that so few parents are aware of the DH guidance (which has been in place for some years now). I always discuss them with new parents (backing up with leaflets) often discussing in depth - it is frustrating that the guidance doesn't cover how to take feeds if you are planning a day out for example - which then leads to people coming up with "solutions" which may not be correct.

I always explain the reasoning behind the guidance - that unless the water is 70 degrees it will not kill off any bacteria that might be present in the formula - as often this clarifies why the guidance was developed.

The Tommee Tippee site needs changing immediately (which Boots did recently when they had a badly worded piece regarding feeding)

I ebfed my DD and I knew how to make up a bottle correctly, pretty disgusted that a company which manufactures baby's bottles would give such inaccurate and potentially dangerous advice.

StrawberriesTasteLikeLipsDo Tue 26-Feb-13 13:48:00

Ironically this is the advice the HV gave me... When I pointed out this is incorrect she said "oh thats just fussiness as a few babies got salmonella" shockshock I took the MN route of nod, disregard...

stoatie Tue 26-Feb-13 13:48:06

ah - I stand corrected - the guidelines do cover making up feeds away from home (didn't used to ) - yay

Thankfully I was giving correct advice - ie to take boiled water in flask and make feed when needed.

IneedAgoldenNickname Tue 26-Feb-13 13:50:52

Yanbu, but I don't know anyone in rl who follows the guidelines. Because they say "the midwife/health visitor/my Mum/Gran/Friend said this was ok"

choceyes Tue 26-Feb-13 13:52:01

wow YANBU at all! Please update and tell us what response you get.

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 13:52:16

Was just about to say they do now Stoatie!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 26-Feb-13 13:52:50

I think there is a big issue with the phrase "cooled boiled water"

I think the people who write this stuff mean boiled then collect to 70deg.

But the people who read it think it means boiled then cooled to room temp /fridge.

Either way is is at the very best unclear, so we'll done for writing!

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 13:55:56

They are adhering to the guidelines in Australia and NZ if that helps.

JaquelineHyde Tue 26-Feb-13 13:56:59

I used to work for Tommee Tippee as head of UK customer service grin

I left quite a few years ago so can't give up to date info, but I can say that this has pretty much been the advice since the new website was launched in 2005.

I don't know why they haven't updated the info inline with the change in guidelines but I suspect it has just been over looked. Not a very good reason I know but when Boots and other midwives are still giving out the old guidelines it's hardly surprising is it.

They will look into it, confirm the new info you have shown them and get a tech bod to update. I suspect you will get a standard apology email but very little in way of an explanation other than what I have already said.

Keep us posted when they reply.

Well, yes, there is a big issue with the phrase "cooled boiled water" because it's also bandied about in advice about cleaning your baby - presumably you use pretty cool water if you're trying to wash their gunky eyes or something, not water at 70 degrees.

JaquelineHyde Tue 26-Feb-13 13:59:41

I'm a little confused I have just been to the Tommee Tippee page and it all appears to be correct.

Here

Can you provide the link to the page you have read?

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 14:01:04

From their website:

"Making up a Feed in Advance

Warm milk is a breeding ground for bacteria so making up bottle feeds in advance is no longer advised. As it is not easy to anticipate when a baby is going to wake up (and therefore when to boil the kettle and let the water cool), it may be easier to put a measured amount of formula aside in a sealed container (Milk Powder Dispensers are ideal) and have a flask of cooled boiled water ready to make up the feed. You can re heat the cooled boiled water and then add the formula prior to feeding. You should only mix the formula once you are happy the water is at the correct temperature as this minimises the amount of time within which bacteria can grow."

Have they changed it? Because that advice, although confusing, does not seem to me to contravene the UK guidelines.

JaquelineHyde Tue 26-Feb-13 14:02:08

Have you maybe read the info from the US or OZ page?

DinglebertWangledack Tue 26-Feb-13 14:02:44

I used to sterilise bottles, boil kettle, cool it down for 30-45 mins then fill up the six bottles, then add powder to a bottle as required. Any I hadn't used in 24 hours I threw away. My daughter is completely healthy, but I am guessing people are going to hurl vitrol at me for doing it that way.

TheSeniorWrangler Tue 26-Feb-13 14:04:23
JaquelineHyde Tue 26-Feb-13 14:05:56

Aaah so they do have the correct advice on the website but have conflicting acive else where.

Just a simple mistake, I'm sure they will rectify it asap.

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 14:06:08

Here you go smile

Bottle feeding dos and don'ts

It is their UK site.

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 14:06:35

Pipped me to the post their Senior!

TheSeniorWrangler Tue 26-Feb-13 14:07:14

i used to make it up 1 in advance so it was only in the fridge for 3-4hrs before being used.

i'd make the feed up with boiling water from the kettle, then put it in the fridge, by the time baby the next feed, it was just about the right temp. I'd take it from the fridge, feed baby, then when i washed that bottle, make up the next one for 3hrs time.

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 14:08:08

It isn't a simple mistake when it can cause very ill babies. These stomach bugs can kill babies from incorrectly prepared formula.

For a major company to be giving advice like that, they should be sure of it before publishing surely?

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 14:09:51

If doing it that method, the safest way is to rapidly cool, or flash cool. So run under cold water. I personally put mine in iced water (have ice packs to put in a bowl with the bottle) for 10 minutes, then fridge it.

It shouldn't be hot or warm when it goes in the fridge, or it will bring up the temperature of your fridge, and the bacteria can then have a party!

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 14:12:35

No, not vitrol Dingle. If everyone has access to the correct advice, then if they chose to not follow it, that is their choice.

JaquelineHyde Tue 26-Feb-13 14:15:06

I suppose you have never made a mistake then TheDetective obviously not, how silly of me to think that.

I would be more concerned that other midwives are still giving out the old information as surely these are the people that really do hold the power to influence people.

Human error is human error, it will be rectified. I'm glad you have spotted it and made them aware but really no need for the hysterics.

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 14:24:56

What's your take on the Australian/NZ guidelines, TheDetective?

I can sort of understand their reasoning that insufficiently cooled formula presents a greater risk of harm to babies through burning than insufficiently heated milk does through bacteria... Or do you think that they have got it very wrong?

Am genuinely interested in how guidelines can vary from country to country...

DinglebertWangledack Tue 26-Feb-13 14:25:44

That's just it isn't it, it is advice! Same with weaning, advice changes every 5 years. When me and my brother were babies (early and mid 90's) advice was make up bottles for the day, and put them in the fridge, warming up when you need them, and weaning was advised at 12 weeks! I was sensible about it and as mentioned any water not used within 24hrs (usually less as I was precious about nearly everything) was thrown away. DD was sick at first but that was due to the formula she was having as soon as I swapped it for a different one she was fine!

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 14:27:10

There are no hysterics, my email was perfectly factual.

If I have made an error, I should hold my hands up, of course. But something makes me think TT will not. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised.

I suspect the reason why some HCP's may be giving incorrect information is because we no longer get training in preparing feeds. We give the DOH leaflet to parents, and ask if they understand it.

As far as I am concerned, I have never been shown or told how to make formula correctly. I sought out the information myself, using the DOH website, as I would expect TT and other manufacturers of infant feeding equipment to check their advice against.

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 14:31:25

Dingle I personally make mine up for the day. I've read the information and made an informed choice. My baby isn't predicable with his feeds, and the screams while he waits are ear shattering.

I've just started using SMA Staydown as advised by my HV, and this formula requires you to actually do the opposite of the guidelines. You have to make up the bottles of cooled boiled water, and add the powder cold. I'm a little wary of this way, as it goes against everything ingrained in me, but it is to do with the reconstitution of the formula I am led to believe.

Still makes me confused though.

tether Do you have a link to their guidelines?

tethersend Tue 26-Feb-13 14:42:55

Some info here but not sure of impartiality of source!

Fakebook Tue 26-Feb-13 14:48:25

Tommee tippee make bottles. They don't make milk. I would have been a bit more hmm if it was cow and gate or some other milk company with the wrong information.

Your email is long winded, slightly hysterical and rude. A simple "Hello! I thought I'd let you know that the information you have about making up milk feeds is out of date. Can you please refer to xx for the new guidelines as I wouldn't want other parents to be given wrong information via your website. Thanks."

See? No need for the rudeness and asking for "speedy responses".

fluckered Tue 26-Feb-13 14:50:27

Dingle i used to do exactly as you did. ds took bottles at room temperature. never heated. filled up bottles with cooled boiled water on kitchen counter and added formula as needed. everyone i know does this. i did not heat his bottles. and will be doing the same on future children.

2aminthemorning Tue 26-Feb-13 14:53:04

Guidelines are totally unreasonable with a baby anyway - never met anyone who followed them. And the whole sterilising thing is usually a farce by the time a tired parent has dropped the tongs for the hundredth time etc. In the end we felt we were going through the motions partly out of superstition and partly out of misplaced guilt that I wasn't bf.

DinglebertWangledack Tue 26-Feb-13 14:57:33

Never warmed mine up either, DD wouldn't take them warm! I think its cause the ready made bottles we were provided with in hospital after breastfeeding failed were room temp not warmed up she got used to it and must have preferred it.

I am planning to attempt breastfeeding this time round as well but yes if it does not pan out I will be using same method again. smile

stoatie Tue 26-Feb-13 15:00:33

As for midwives giving out -of -date advice - that is down to the individual. I can only talk about where I work - we as standard give out the DH leaflet either breastfeeding or bottlefeeding at discharge/on PN as appropriate.

Sometimes leaflet guidance can change but staff are not made aware of changes (as I mentioned earlier, guidance didn't use to cover making up feeds if out of home - it now does) . Thankfully I was giving out correct guidance (from our infant feeding co-ordinator) but nice to see it is now in the official leaflet.

However - giving out leaflets is not a great way of passing on information as many of us never read leaflets - to busy being a new mum!!

louschmoo Tue 26-Feb-13 15:05:12

YANBU. It's hard enough to get decent advice about how to make up formula without major corporations giving incorrect advice like this. Your email seemed reasonable to me. It was an email to a company, not a personal message to an individual. You were quite right to express your concern - this is potentially dangerous advice.

sneezingwakesthebaby Tue 26-Feb-13 15:08:19

I think my midwife must have taken pity on us since she showed us how to do it as well as giving us some leaflets. Maybe I looked dumb grin

And I don't think the guidelines are that unreasonable. We've followed them the whole way through because the two times we did make bottles in advance (after being nagged by my mum to try it), dd threw them back up which was more hassle than making the bottle fresh haha!

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 15:11:12

tether I actually came across the Infant Nutrition Council earlier today. They are the Australia/New Zealand formula manufacturers. I would take that with a huuuuuuge pinch of salt.

Of course they want to make the preparation of formula as easy as possible. I suppose they think more people will be put off if it as seen as a faff to prepare a feed.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Tue 26-Feb-13 15:20:24

Dingle, I did bottles the same. I had no advice from midwife / health visitor so bumbled along with the instructions from the back of the sma tin. He always had room temp feeds so as not to cause problems if I couldn't heat it.
Each of my friends seem to do it differently.

adeucalione Tue 26-Feb-13 15:29:52

I used to make up eight bottles every morning, boiling water and formula, and store them in the fridge until they were needed, which is when they would be heated in the microwave.

I microwaved the night feed before I went to bed and left it by my bed until it was needed.

I don't know what my point is really. Probably something about people being able to read the guidelines and use their common sense accordingly.

TaggieCampbellBlack Tue 26-Feb-13 15:42:30

The instructions on the tins of Hipp and Cow and Gate formula are both wrong too.

IIRC tthey say to boil kettle then leave to cool for half an hour.

Baby Milk Action are on it but the formula companies simply don't care what people do once they've handed the money over.

I get so [grrr] when I see dismissive posts in repsonse to ff questions - along the lines of How hard can it be - the instructions are on the side of the tin.

SirBoobAlot Tue 26-Feb-13 15:59:56

YAsoNBU to contact them, it makes me so angry. These fucking companies really do not care.

Please also contact Baby Milk Action about this.

EnjoyResponsibly Tue 26-Feb-13 16:06:45

Since TT don't make the milk, only the bottles, it'd be better if they didn't bother with FF preparation advice at all really. Less risk of inadvertently falling behind with changes o best practice.

barleysugar Tue 26-Feb-13 16:15:48

Without being inflammatory, may I ask if the danger is a theoretical one or are there actual documented cases of illness from incorrect bottle preparation?

And in the case of illness, is it proven that it was caused by incorrect preparation, rather than poor hygiene, or sterilisation of feeding equipment?

Genuinely curious.

manticlimactic Tue 26-Feb-13 16:31:26

How many times have these guidelines changed? When DD (16) was a baby you could make them up in advance. Then it changed to cooled water (I was always baffled by that, would the formula dissolve in cool water)and the heat them? And now it's something different.

You can't blame some people just getting on with it however they want. Guidelines always seem to chop and change and sometimes revert back to how things were. Not just on about formula here.

ouryve Tue 26-Feb-13 16:33:19

Their advice became outdated almost a decade ago. YANBU. In fact, well done for pointing it out to them.

SirBoobAlot Tue 26-Feb-13 16:35:16

Barley formula is not sterile. Incorrectly prepared formula can cause a variety of problems for babies, and there have been recorded deaths from e sakazakii bacteria.

As for the changing of guidelines, that's mainly because it was only in the mid 90s that formula companies actually had to start declaring what was going into artificial milks.

barleysugar Tue 26-Feb-13 16:39:15

Yes, thankyou Sirboobalot, I understand that. What I would like to know is how common are these serious infections - why do we never hear about them?

mum11970 Tue 26-Feb-13 16:43:29

Manti, I did the same as you with all 3 of mine. I made up 6 bottles in advance and just kept them in the fridge.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 26-Feb-13 16:46:43

taggie I thought that if you boiled a full kettle of water and then left for 30mins = 70degs

Alibabaandthe40nappies Tue 26-Feb-13 16:49:10

I find all the 'oh I did this and it was fine' attitude bizarre. Why are people so casual about taking a risk with their baby's health?

Fair enough if you followed what were the guidelines at the time, because you can only base your choices on information available. But why not follow the current advice?

Shagmundfreud Tue 26-Feb-13 16:51:52

YANBU - but doesn't it show how they don't give a shit - to have allowed this massive error to be overlooked?

I phoned Cow and Gate once and complained about their rep quietly dumping huge piles of formula advertising leaflets not very cunningly disguised as helpful advice on all aspects of feeding, including breastfeeding in the parent craft room at the local hospital.
Especially as the booklet implied that constipation was common in all babies and not just those being ff, and stated that bf babies should be given water in between feeds in hot weather.

They were utterly uncaring - had no intention of withdrawing the leaflet and frankly sounded annoyed that I'd phone to complain.

Kafri Tue 26-Feb-13 16:52:20

copied and pasted from TT website

Making up a Feed in Advance
Warm milk is a breeding ground for bacteria so making up bottle feeds in advance is no longer advised. As it is not easy to anticipate when a baby is going to wake up (and therefore when to boil the kettle and let the water cool), it may be easier to put a measured amount of formula aside in a sealed container (Milk Powder Dispensers are ideal) and have a flask of cooled boiled water ready to make up the feed. You can re heat the cooled boiled water and then add the formula prior to feeding. You should only mix the formula once you are happy the water is at the correct temperature as this minimises the amount of time within which bacteria can grow.

I would love to know how many people actually make up every feed as and when required. I'll hold my hands up and say I don't. I leave a little cooled boiled water in the bottle and then top it up to the right amour with freshly boiled water when needed. This makes it warm enough for the powder to dissolve but not too hot that it takes ages to cool for DS to drink - it's usually fine by the time I have taken him upstairs to change his nappy and come back again. Was told I could do this by a paed nurse.

Gotta say though - have been given various bits of advice from MW/HV and nurses - all contradicting each other. some say to use all cooked boiled water and warm bottle a little in a cup of warm water, some say to make up completely and store in fridge - none of them can agree. Also, its a bit of a pain that the guidelines change (for everything - feeding/sleeping etc) on a bloody whim so is it any wonder people don't necessarily listen to them.

ItsAll that does seem to be implied by the DoH guidelines linked to above - fill kettle with a litre of water, leave 20-30 mins.

There was a poster on here once who had spent big sums on a kettle that monitered or regulated temperature. The price was high, but I'd certainly get one if I ever needed to make up bottles.

FrenchJunebug Tue 26-Feb-13 16:54:33

I used to fill bottles with boiled water, let it cool and filled with formula and reheat when needed. My DS is healthy. Lighten up. We do live in pretty clean environment with pretty clean water.

Shagmundfreud Tue 26-Feb-13 16:54:49

Barley sugar , only a few babies have died in Europe from e-sakazakii in formula, but I suspect they're not entirely sure if there might be more that haven't been linked directly to formula but where formula might be implicated.

BlingLoving Tue 26-Feb-13 16:54:56

I'm going to stick my neck out and say I always prepared bottles with water and then simply added powder when needed to cool bottle. Idid this because a) I don't see how putting formula in hot water kills germs unless you are going to boil it which you don't and b) because I felt that if there was a chance of disease it started top breeding the moment the milk was dissolved. Spin was absolutely obsessive about discarding milk within 2 hours of it being prepared.

PseudoBadger Tue 26-Feb-13 16:57:53

I have investigated cases of salmonella poisoning from formula powder, so yes it is a real hazard.

French it's nothing to do with how clean the water is. It's to do with how clean the formula is. Bling understands this, but doesn't believe that the problem can be dealt with by following official advice.

What I don't understand is why you ought not to use water that has been boiled before?

sneezingwakesthebaby Tue 26-Feb-13 17:04:56

The boiled before water bit is because of minerals (or whatever the stuff that's in water is called) becomes more concentrated with each boil as some of the water evaporates which isn't good for the baby. Or so I was told.

Barleysugar - it is my understanding that the only deaths from the E Sakazakii bacteria have been babies who were already in NICU and who were already unwell/weakened/immuno compromised/premature.

I bottle fed my dses back in the days when it was considered fine to make up bottles 24 hours in advance and keep them in the fridge, and whilst it is not evidence, I can say that I did not hear of any infant deaths related to this way of making up formula, either amongst my acquaintances or in the press.

That said, making up bottles one at a time, with water above 70 degrees centigrade is the gold standard of how to make up bottles.

I would advise, most strongly against taking a bottle of heated -up formula upstairs at bedtime, and using it some hours later. Unless a bottle is made up, stored and handled in operating theatre style conditions of sterility, there is always a risk of contamination, and warm milk, cooling gradually at room temperature, would provide a lovely breeding ground for bacteria.

PseudoBadger Tue 26-Feb-13 17:09:09

Bling - it doesn't need to be boiling, just around 70 degrees (72 actually) to kill bacteria. Luckily 1 litre of boiled water reaches this temp after the suggested cooling time. You could achieve the same effect with a thermometer and measure the time/temp exactly. But the fsa guidance is designed to be easy for everyone to follow to be safe, so instead of faffing with a thermometer they tell you to leave the water to stand.

PseudoBadger - I hope you don't mind my asking, but were the cases of salmonella poisoning from formula that you have investigated due to contamination of the formula powder, or contamination during the process of making up the formula?

PseudoBadger Tue 26-Feb-13 17:17:49

Contamination of the formula, which was not made safe as the bottles were not made up in accordance with guidelines.

To clarify, EHOs all over the country are investigating illness from formula regularly - just because there's no publicised deaths doesn't mean it's not important or not a real issue. It's the same as eating raw meat without making it safe, essentially.

Thank you, PB.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 26-Feb-13 17:24:42

Yanbu. Anybody who gives advice out in print should make sure that advice is correct.

Once you have been given that correct advice it is up to you if you follow it or not but its your risk to take with your child. If someone who is in a position where they should be considered to be a authority on the matter gives incorrect advice and you follow the incorrect advice then that person has taken that risk for you.

I have a friend who HAS been given correct advice but still insists on making her bottles with normal tap water direct from the hot tap ( no modern boiling tap involved just a bog standard tap) as stupid as I think that is its up to her,but if a person that should know better had told her to do this then its different because she would be thinking she was doing the right thing rather than knowing she wasn't.

BenjaminButton172 Tue 26-Feb-13 18:28:05

How difficult is it to make a bottle! You boil the kettle, put the water in the bottle, put the powder in, put the lid on and shake. Job done.

I'm a microbiologist and always boiled the water in the morning and stored it for the day, making up feeds as required. The water will stay sterile as long as the bottle is sealed and as long as the powder goes in at feed time bacteria will have no time to grow. The only potential danger with this system is if the powder itself is grossly contaminated.

I also wouldn't trust a few seconds at 70 degree to kill anything. We treat at 120 degree for at least 30 mins at work.

If I have understood correctly it is E Sakazakii contamination that is supposed to be the problem with formula powder contamination, Annie - do you know if this particular bacterium is killed by 70 degree water?

Nope, sorry. I'm more into viruses.

PseudoBadger Tue 26-Feb-13 18:43:50

But I do know that bacteria and viruses are hardy, sneaky bastard.

PseudoBadger Tue 26-Feb-13 18:46:45

Sorry the above link is general info on that bacterium.
This is a pub med showing a reduction in bacteria at 70 degrees
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14717352/

How much of a reduction? Sorry on phone now so I can't read the paper.

PseudoBadger Tue 26-Feb-13 18:50:35

"When dried infant formula containing this strain was rehydrated with water preequilibrated to various temperatures, a more than 4-log reduction in E. sakazakii levels was achieved by preparing the formula with water at 70 degrees C or greater"

Shootenanny Tue 26-Feb-13 18:51:47

70 degrees is the level they pasteurize milk at. I'm sure that's a fairly proven method for reducing bacteria levels within milk

PseudoBadger Tue 26-Feb-13 18:53:42

If anyone has some spare time here is the codex for infant formula
www.codexalimentarius.org/input/download/standards/11026/CXP_066e.pdf

4 logs is quite substantial, do they say how many were in there to start with though? 4 logs off 10e6 is pretty substantial, but 4 logs off 10e12 still leaves 10,000,000 bacteria in your formula.

I'd be interested to know what level of contamination is standard in a tub or formula.

Ha ha benjamin given what i say above I see you've come specifically on make me feel [grr].

Getting back to ops point, tome tippee are suggesting that that's not necessarily how it's most easily done.

TheDetective Tue 26-Feb-13 23:39:59

I've found some more misleading information on the Mothercare website. Although, it isn't giving direct advice. I was looking for the tubs to store powder in as the SMA staydown formula has to be prepared with cold previously boiled water, and powder added at the time of the feed.

I came across this:

'Each compartment of the Philips AVENT Milk Powder Dispenser stores enough formula for 3 x 260ml feeds, so when you're ready to feed, simply pour the powder into your little one's bottle. Add the required quantity of cooled boiled water, and baby is ready to feed. '

Firstly, you don't simply pour the powder in to the bottle, and then add the water, you do it the other way around, unless you have the exact amount of water already measured out. Secondly, it talks aboout cooled boiled water again.

Jeez. There is so much misleading information out there!

I know it isn't anything to do with Mothercare really, and it isn't given as advice, and presumably the item would come with instructions with correct advice. But still. It gives the wrong impression IMO.

BTW. I haven't gone looking for these things, I have geniunely been searching for products that will help me now I have changed formula.

Murtette Wed 27-Feb-13 00:11:47

I'm glad you've raised this as I read the "how much of a faff is ff really" (or similar name) thread the other day and thought "well, it is as I don't know how to make up a bottle safely in advance". People on that thread contradicted each other so I googled "making up a bottle in advance" and the first link was the Tommee Tippee one and I read what OP has linked to above and was a bit confused as I thought that that was old advice and certainly contradicted what other websites (such as the NHS) were saying and so I've spent the last few days watching various friends make up bottles for their babies and they all do different things (including my friends who are GPs!) and when I mention that I thought the NHS advice these days differs from what they're doing they just say "but I've always done it this way and its never done my DC any harm"... which isn't really the point! I will have to leave DS with some bottles this week (he's usually bf and so has only had bottles of ebf to date) & they will have to be made up in advance and I still don't know what to do. Or what kit I need to be able to keep it safe once its been made. I am very tempted to just buy those ready made cartons except they're so expensive. DS is a pretty sturdy 9mo so, if he were to get infected with something due to incorrectly made up formula, he's probably in a better position to fight it off than a 9 day old would be but I still don't want him to get ill. The other thing which annoys me about it is that I consider myself to be pretty intelligent and have waited until DS is 9mo so am past the really sleep deprived stage yes I still can't understand it or find the correct advice. I think DS would have had more formula had I been more confident that any bottle I was going to make up would actually be safe for him to consume.

TheDetective Wed 27-Feb-13 00:36:54

Murtette The DOH guidelines say the following about preparing feeds in advance:

'Transporting a feed
If it is not possible to make up a fresh feed by following the advice above or if
you need to transport a feed – for example to a nursery or childminder – you
should prepare the feed at home and cool it, for at least one hour, at the back of the fridge.

Take it out of the fridge just before you leave and carry it in a cool bag with
an ice pack – and use it within four hours.
If you do not have an ice pack, or access to a fridge, the made-up infant
formula must be used within two hours.'

You can get insulated carry bags for the bottles, or a cool bag. I always add an ice pack to my insulated bag, even though it says you don't need to. I err on the side of caution!

Murtette Wed 27-Feb-13 00:54:29

I found this just now but thank you for pointing it out to me! So do I then warm the bottle to an acceptable temperature for DS by running it under a tap? Or will that causel all of the bacteria to have a party?
It does worry me how many of my friends are making bottles up completely wrong. One of them boils the kettle, leaves it to cool for 30 mins, makes up 6 bottles for the day & them leaves them on the window sill so that they're ready for use whenever she needs them; another always takes two bottles out with her which she makes up with boiling water & puts straight into the insulated bag so that they never get too cold; friends 3 to 6 take a bottle of cooled boiled water (although it will have been cooled in various different ways) and add the powder later.

Being very tedious... if I'm dropping DS at the childminder at 8, I need to leave home at 7.45 so the bottle needs to be in the fridge by 6.45 so the kettle needs to have finished boiling at 6.15... or do I have to leave the water to cool between letting it get to 70 degrees & putting it in the fridge? Do I really need to get up at 6.00am to get all of the process started or can I do it the night before and leave the bottles in the fridge overnight? And will I have to get the childminder to make up DS's afternoon bottle? Or can I take one which I made up at 6.45am, transport it in an insulated bag for 15 mins to the childminder and then put it in her fridge?

Sorry for asking such detailed questions but I want to make sure I get it right & you seem to know what you're talking about!

Wow we get completely different instructions here in the US, Cold water add powder and feed. I used to take bottles of boiled water with me out for the day and add powder from one of those Avent dispensers. I bought the ready to feed (single serve bottles like in the hospital) for a couple of months then onto powder.
They don't recommend sterilizing either, just rinse and throw them through the dishwasher, but I couldn't I used to boil the teats and scrub the bottles in hot soapy water before putting the bottles in the dishwasher.

thereistheball Wed 27-Feb-13 04:37:14

Squinkies - same here in France. Room temp mineral water (with low mineral content. Some have a special logo on to indicate suitability) straight into the bottle, powder on top, shake, serve. I use a powder dispenser when out and about. No need to sterilise, just bung through the dishwasher (though I usually do sterilise everything at least once a day out of habit).

sashh Wed 27-Feb-13 05:05:54

Genuine question OP

The danger of the bacteria is in the formula. If you zapped the formula (as a powder) in the microwave could you use it with boiled cooled and in the fridge water?

gingerbreadshoes Wed 27-Feb-13 06:26:37

Just out of interest I wonder how many people who make up the bottles any old way to suit them i.e not to the current guidelines would admit that their method was at fault if their dc became ill? Or would it be somebody elses fault if say the formula was found to be contaminated but illness could have been prevented by using water cooled to 70 degrees?

I am amazed that people have such little regard for their babies health because it is less convenient for them. You wouldn't cook food and leave it on a windowsill for a day before serving it (I mean chicken, shellfish etc which can cause food poisoning) would you or am I just being over cautious.

I am also not trying to start a bun fight it is just my opinion.

PurpleStorm Wed 27-Feb-13 06:42:14

YANBU.

Hopefully Tommee Tippee will correct their mistake quickly.

SalopianTubes Wed 27-Feb-13 10:03:02

YANBU to email them to point out the glaring error.

I formula fed DS for a short time last year and bought a bosch kettle which was great for making up feeds. You can set it to heat the water to 70c, so only takes a moment or two to get the water just at the right temperature to make a fresh feed every time. Much easier than faffing storing things in the fridge.

As I said earlier, the advice to use boiled water at or over 70 degrees, is the gold standard advice for making up formula. However, my suspicion is that it is super-cautious advice, based on the fact that the formula manufacturers want to cover their own backs - so they can't be blamed for any illness, and that, in a normal, domestic setting, with a generally fit, well baby (particularly one who is no longer a newborn), that it is over-zealous. Maybe the theory is that if most people achieve 80% of perfection, their babies will be OK, iyswim.

It is anecdotal, I know, but when I was formula-feeding my three, the advice was to make up a day's feeds in advance, and store them in the fridge, and I don't think there was any specific advice about using water above a particular temperature either, and my babies were fine, and didn't get any serious illnesses, nor were there any big news stories or health scares about babies fed this way at that time.

I do also think that, once you have a baby that is putting anything within its reach in its mouth, you can be a little less rigorous about their formula - but again, that is just my opinion, based on my experience.

It occurs to me, TheDetective that the Mothercare advice you quote isn't actually wrong, as such, but more ignores the reality of how people make up formula.

It does say to add the required amount of water, which would suggest measuring the amount of water needed before adding it to the bottle, which is a perfectly safe way to do it - what matters is that the formula is at the right dilution.

However, since the vast majority of people, in my experience, use the markings on the bottle to measure the water, rather than a separate jug, then the best advice is to put the water in first, ensuring you have the right amount, and then add the formula - and Mothercare should know this.

Yanbu at all, the advice isn't the right advice! Every mother, especially new mums need the right advice on feeding formula, and they shouldn't be going against guidelinesshock

I made up each bottle as an when needed with dd4, since the new guidelines came in except for when on journeys or days out where that wasn't possible. If i were on a day out i made the days bottles, with hot water and left to cool and then refrigerated and kept in cool bags as that was the only way to evade the risk of germs in the powder.

Your thread reminded me of these op
Incidentally, they are probably exactly what you are looking for for you smile

RandallPinkFloyd Wed 27-Feb-13 11:11:22

The tommee tippee website gives the correct advic, I've just checked it now.

It does say what you quoted in the OP but it goes on to say that you can re-heat the water before adding the powder and shouldn't mix the formula until you are happy the water is at the correct temperature.

I'm only saying this because I hear this kind of thing on here all the time yet I never once saw incorrect advice anywhere when I was feeding DS. The only place I saw bad advice was from other parents on here.

No, Randall, it doesn't go on to say that. The suggestion is at point 8 of the bottle feeding dos and don'ts. It's presumably a "do".

EducationalAppStore Wed 27-Feb-13 11:55:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Well done you! I really honestly don't think people realise that the water thing is not about killing bugs in the water, but in the powder.

To pre-make bottles:
Boil kettle.
Fill bottles.
Cool till 70 degree, about 3 minutes.
Add powder.
Shake well.
Add to bowl of very cold ice water or run under cold tap until completely cold.
Put in fridge (not in door).

Will last for 24 hours. This information needs to be more widely available. In leaflets given by midwives, in with bottles you buy etc. I also think that bottles should come with an easy to use thermometer to test the water.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

And if you want to warm it, stand in a jug of hot water for about 2-3 minutes. Although I've only ever done that once!

I have reported myself on here, for swearing at EducationApps - so you lot don't think I am some randomly foul mouthed old bizzom - though you were bound to find out eventually, I suppose! grin

I reported it too. First post I've ever reported. Go me!

Exciting times, Visualise! Now, have a quiet sit-down, a brew and a biscuit to get over it all! winkgrin

Shall do.

RandallPinkFloyd Wed 27-Feb-13 12:31:13

The page I quoted from is here

RandallPinkFloyd Wed 27-Feb-13 12:34:24

I'm not denying that there must be bad information out there as lots of people report that there is. Just that I've never seen any.

Every book, leaflet and formula box I've ever seen has shown the correct information.

TheDetective Wed 27-Feb-13 15:22:05

Randall I've linked the page earlier in the thread.

Here it is again.

www.tommeetippee.co.uk/support/bottle-feeding/bottle-feeding-dos-and-donts/

RandallPinkFloyd Wed 27-Feb-13 15:28:20

I saw it. I just linked to another page on the same website which gives more detailed inductions.

TheDetective Wed 27-Feb-13 16:17:27

Yes, that was discussed earlier in the thread.

BlackMaryJanes Wed 27-Feb-13 21:02:48

So how come they don't need to use boiling water in New Zealand?

TheDetective Thu 28-Feb-13 23:03:34

Well, I've had no acknowledgement of my email to TT.

But....

They've changed the page! It now reads "Health guidelines recommend you make up bottles one at a time. See our making up a bottle feed page for more information."

See here!

JaquelineHyde Fri 01-Mar-13 08:31:05

As an ex TT employee I find it incredibly rude that they haven't replied to you, that certainly wouldn't have happened when I was in charge grin

JaquelineHyde Fri 01-Mar-13 08:31:21

Glad they have changed it though!

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