to be furious with my pil and to think its up to me. to discipline my children

(118 Posts)
chocoholic05 Mon 25-Feb-13 14:32:25

Yesterday afternoon my pil came round. Ds1 was playing up and I removed him from the room when he came back in he became aggressive towards his brother again. This happened a number of times he's normally a good boy but yesterday he was not he's 7. To cut along story short after ds hit his brother again fil got hold of him pulled his trousers and pants down and was about to smack him! I screamed (extremely unlike me) no fil he's my child and you don't touch him!!! He then made out he wasn't really going to do it and mil then said its a pity you don't smack him he'd probably be a lot better behaved! Sooo angry shaking now just thinking about yesterday!

WobblyHalo Mon 25-Feb-13 14:35:53

Wow! I usually don't mind if other people tell my children off if they deserve it, but my god, I would've screamed too!! Smacking him?!

I don't actually know what to say. YANBU.

HecateWhoopass Mon 25-Feb-13 14:37:25

He pulled his underwear down? that is totally out of order.

you don't humiliate a child like that. And it's not his place to decide to hit your child, even if he thought you weren't dealing with the matter 'properly'. (i'm not saying you weren't, I'm speculating how he may have viewed it)

you weren't allowing him to be aggressive without consequence. You removed him from the room, he came back in and started again, you were doing something about it. ok, after a few times it would have become apparent that something else needed to be done because he wasn't responding to simply being made to leave the room for a few minutes, but there's no need to hit someone in order to deal with their behaviour!

And hitting someone in order to teach them that being aggressive is wrong is laughable! Bloody laughable.

FIL telling him off sternly would have been appropriate. Smacking or threatening to smack definitely is not. YANBU.

landofsoapandglory Mon 25-Feb-13 14:39:34

It would be a cold day in hell before they were welcome in my house again!

YADNBU!

Flisspaps Mon 25-Feb-13 14:44:30

I agree with landofsoapandglory.

To help with appropriate discipline (telling off if you're not in the room and the DC are misbehaving, for example) is fine

To pull down the trousers and pants of a child, with the intention of humiliating and smacking them, is not OK.

I hope your DP is backing you up?

BambieO Mon 25-Feb-13 14:49:41

My DS is too young for any of this just yet but YANBU at all!!! I would have gone mad if anyone tried to lay a finger on my DS and agree about the underwear coming down, even more despicable

JuliaScurr Mon 25-Feb-13 14:49:56

The appropriate thing is to remind the child that his/her parent has told them to ... not to take over

Blahdy liberdy!

TotallyBursar Mon 25-Feb-13 14:56:07

YANBU - agree with Hecate entirely.

Not only was there no need to smack, it was not his place anyway.

Whether or not they were getting frustrated as removal was not working is immaterial. In that situation I would have been happy for GPs to be stern or to express their disappointment (in the behaviour, not my child) but shouting, smacking or any other aggression - no, absolutely not.

Off they can jolly well fuck and they won't be getting over the threashold into the place my dcs should feel safest anytime soon.

Rosa Mon 25-Feb-13 15:05:53

Agree he did not do the right thing however if you could see he was having a bad day and I usually can see if there is going to be further violence then you should have been watching him like a hawk and you should have intervened there and then... As sending him out of the room obviously diddn't work.

NopeStillNothing Mon 25-Feb-13 15:11:19

Ofcourse your PIL was BU. There is absolutely no excuse for that. However, at the risk of being very unpopular, after you had removed DS, he returned, continued to be aggresive, hit his brother again, and FIL had time to go to him, pull his pants down and raise his hand before you intervened? Are you sure you were paying adequate attention to your sons aggresive behaviour?

Please dont get me wrong, Pil was 100% in the wrong and in your shoes I would be fuming, but if I had already disciplined my son and he returned into the room to hit his brother again he would be in alot of trouble and there would have been no opportunity for pil to try to 'take over' iyswim.

Roseformeplease Mon 25-Feb-13 15:14:21

How does hitting a child teach that child not to hit? That would be the line I would take with FiL, in addition to your totally understandable outrage at his taking over.

thezebrawearspurple Mon 25-Feb-13 15:27:20

How did your fil have that much time to get his pants down and why hadn't you already intervened before he had a chance to? Sounds like he thought if he doesn't do something nobody will, at least not before his other grandchild was seriously hurt.

yabu, if you were as protective of your other son from your elder sons violence as you are of anyone else dealing with it (however wrongly), then this wouldn't have happened.

KellyElly Mon 25-Feb-13 15:56:56

That is awful! Pulling down a child's pants is completely humiliating and I would have gone absolutely mad.

HDEE Mon 25-Feb-13 16:05:34

Welcome to Mumsnet, OP.

chocolatetester1 Mon 25-Feb-13 16:48:06

Yanbu.
It takes less than 1 sec to pull down pants, we're currently potty training so that I know.
Only thing smacking teaches is that it's ok for bigger people to hit smaller people. Def yanbu.

lookingfoxy Mon 25-Feb-13 16:52:17

Wow thats definetly out of order.
At 7 your ds would have been humiliated.
I wouldn't have minded fil telling them off as well, but that was definetly a step too far.

firawla Mon 25-Feb-13 16:55:41

if anyone pulled my dcs trousers and pants down they would be having a fking smack themselves pil or not!!!!
they are out of order, your poor ds. yanbu whatsoever.

TidyDancer Mon 25-Feb-13 16:58:16

It is appropriate for FIL to discipline your DS, but it is not okay for him to be violent with him!

I would never leave my DCs alone with people that would be willing to do such a horrific thing.

TidyDancer Mon 25-Feb-13 16:58:39

YANBU btw.

OhTheConfusion Mon 25-Feb-13 17:07:18

I am disgusted at your FIL's behavior. You don't humiliate and hurt children regardless of the situation. What did your DH say? I would be worried PIL treat the kids like this and they would NEVER be alone with my children again!

PessaryPam Mon 25-Feb-13 17:20:08

LTB.

scaredbutexcited Mon 25-Feb-13 17:25:21

That's horrendous! YANBU. I wouldn't want him alone with my children for quite some time. YANBU!!!

MammaTJ Mon 25-Feb-13 17:28:51

YANBU!! I hope they don't do any child care for you!

How does your DP/DH view this?

anonymosity Mon 25-Feb-13 17:30:08

YANBU and he's proposing to break the law now with smacking, isn't he? Did you point that out too - I wouldn't be afraid to say I'd call the police if anyone ever dared do this to either of my children.

ENormaSnob Mon 25-Feb-13 17:34:41

Yanbu

I would be furious.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 25-Feb-13 17:41:58

YANBU.

What is your DHs reaction?

chocoholic05 Mon 25-Feb-13 17:50:28

Thanks everyone! I'm not totally new to mums net I left ages ago and have now come back! I do admit I wasn't totally ontop of things at that particular moment in time. My dc were with my dh and pil. I had stepped into the kitchen feeling like I was possibly the worlds worst mummy! sad It whilst in the kitchen that I heard everything start again so I went into the room and everything happened as. I previously described! Dh then took ds away from pil. I think mil comment about its a pity I don't smack him etc that upset me too!!

MIL is justifying her treatment of your DH, and projecting that on to you. Tell her to go fuck herself Ignore it.

YWNBU. I would have Gone Fucking Apeshit.

anonymosity Mon 25-Feb-13 19:12:16

Well you could always ask the MIL if she'd like a smack too smile

chocoholic05 Mon 25-Feb-13 20:43:01

So its almost unanimous then! Yes they do babysat sometimes and have taken them out for the day in the past. However after yesterday I really don't know anymore! sad

TimothyClaypoleLover Mon 25-Feb-13 21:38:04

OP, I would be telling inlaws they will not be babysitting or taking the kids out for the day if they ever try to do anything like that again. Does your DH feel the same?

chocoholic05 Mon 25-Feb-13 21:44:20

Yes he does

That's good.

DH knows that if PIL ever lay hands on the DCs they will not be seeing them again. Fortunately, although they disagree with us, they eye roll rather than undermining.

TimothyClaypoleLover Mon 25-Feb-13 21:50:59

Oh good, at least you can present an united front to them.

Goldmandra Mon 25-Feb-13 21:52:13

I think you and your DH need to have a calm conversation with them about this away from the children.

You need to explain that you would never accept anyone raising their hand to your child ever, pants down or not. They need to understand that your parenting decisions may not be the same as theirs but they are perfectly valid and must be respected.

You know the history of this relationship. If you think they will respect your wishes when they are expressed very clearly in this way there is no reason not to leave them in charge of your DCs again. Your DS will report back to you if anything else happens.

You can also tell them that you have told your DS that if anyone tries to take his pants down without his permission he is allowed to fight in any way he likes to stop them.

If you have reason to think they will disregard your wishes because they believe they know better, you would be very reasonable to say they can only see them with you around to protect them in future.

FabulousFreaks Mon 25-Feb-13 21:54:19

Awful, I really think I would not let them in my house again and I would struggle to let them have my dc on their own if that happened to me.

chocoholic05 Mon 25-Feb-13 21:59:07

Good advice thanks! I haven't explained to ds but I will. He's been off school today with a poorly ear he's so miserable with it bless him. Does kind of explain his behavior yesterday sad

Greensleeves Mon 25-Feb-13 22:02:02

Have you asked your sons whether this has ever happened before?

I would have been absolutely livid. Beyond livid. Fucking arsehole.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 25-Feb-13 22:04:36

What does dh say about it?

chocoholic05 Tue 26-Feb-13 07:31:37

Dh agrees with me and he said that's why he took ds out of the room. He said what his dad did was completely out of order.

MrsMushroom Tue 26-Feb-13 07:54:09

I'd have pulled his fucking pants down and smacked HIS arse. Bit nasty bully. OP for me that is tantamount to assault...he pulled your sons trousers down. NOT ok. People like his need to learn the hard way. I would not let DS be alone with him.

Jelly15 Tue 26-Feb-13 08:03:42

I would have thrown them out of my house and told them they were lucky I didn;t call the police and report them. My SIL threatened my DS when he was roughly the same age. I told my son in front of her that she won't because it is against the law to spack a child and I wouldn't let her in the house again. This started a big row with all my ILs but they never raised a hand but then i never left them alone with my DSs. DH was hit regularl;y as a child angry

BirdyArms Tue 26-Feb-13 08:16:04

I can totally imagine the whole of your scenario happening in my house with my father in your FIL's role. My dad thinks that I am not strict enough with 7yo ds1 and has treated him roughly, though not smacked him, in the past. He used to smack me occasionally as a child and sees it as a completely normal part of parenting. I do not agree.

I think that you reacted completely appropriately. I definitely wouldn't be banning him from the house though and I wouldn't have any worries about your son being alone with him for short times. I'm sure it's very unlikely that your son would misbehave to such an extent when he was left with his grandparents. Your FIL's behaviour was pretty normal in the 70's and I don't think it's necessarily an indication that he is a violent man. You have told him quite clearly that it isn't acceptable to you and I would expect that he had taken that on board. It would be a shame to spoil your son's relationship with his grandparents. However I maybe would think twice about leaving them together for a long time though eg if you went away for more than a night. I would try to discuss it calmly with your PIL and tell them that under no circumstances may they smack your children.

13Iggis Tue 26-Feb-13 08:24:45

I don't believe in smacking (disclaimer) but not sure how what fil did was actually agaisnt the law? I thought only illegal if caused a mark etc. Has law changed?

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 08:39:27

He's been off school today with a poorly ear he's so miserable with it bless him. Does kind of explain his behavior yesterday

That doesn't excuse hitting a younger sibling. I had an older sibling hit me frequently when we were younger. And it is terrifying

A timeout is clearly not working. Yes, your fil overstepped the boundaries. But you need to deal with this much more seriously. If your ds hit his young sibling twice in front of you, he must be doing it much more frequently in private. You need to have very strong sanctions that it does not happen again. Not a wishy-washy time-out, which is ok for small misdemeanours.

Jinsei Tue 26-Feb-13 08:46:55

Wow! I came on this thread ready to say yabu - it takes a village to raise a child and all that. But having read your op, yadnbu! What a cruel and humiliating way to treat a child!!

chocoholic05 Tue 26-Feb-13 09:13:50

I totally agree it may explain his behavior it does not in anyway excuse it and I am sorry if I gave the impression that I condone it in anyway I didn't/don't!

chocoholic05 Tue 26-Feb-13 09:16:44

Last comment referred back to flatbread comments btw!

chocoholic05 Tue 26-Feb-13 09:22:29

My pil had their children in the last sixties and early seventies and I suppose it was considered normal parenting then. But still not his place to behave like that with my ds!

chocoholic05 Tue 26-Feb-13 12:37:37

Mil rang yesterday as if nothing had happened and asked how ds is (my mum rang had seen her in town and told her about ds1 bad ear). Then finished before hanging.up with 'take care you know where we are if you want us!"

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 13:02:18

I think that is nice of them. It is hardly worth falling out over.

Goldmandra Tue 26-Feb-13 14:09:10

It is hardly worth falling out over.

It is very much worth falling out over if the OP is not able to feel reassured that her PILs will NEVER use corporal punishment on her children either with or without her being there to protect them.

I would need to hear them promise never to raise a hand to either child ever again and would be more than willing to fall out with them if they wouldn't do this.

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 14:38:08

PIl haven't smacked ds, they backed off.

The only one with a propensity for hitting seems to be OP's older child. Best to focus on curbing that, which is really the main issue.

Maybe I am very sensitive to this, having been on the receiving end of an older sibling's hitting. IMO, parents often don't take it seriously enough or provide serious enough consequences to the older sibling. A 7 year old can hit hard, and it will feel painful for someone who is 4 or 5. And humiliating for them too.

Personally, I would have loved my mum or dad, or anyone really to have smacked my older sibling, to show them how it feels to be on the receiving end and hopefully put the fear in her that she cannot hit a younger child and get away with it. Instead everyone just tutted ineffectually or said that my older sis would outgrow it or worse still, the children are just playing hmm

Anyway, in this case, op's and her dh's views have been made clear. Mil calling was probably a conciliatory gesture. I would let it go.

Goldmandra Tue 26-Feb-13 15:31:13

He only stopped because the OP screamed. Other comments they have made back up the OP's view that they see it as the right thing to do.

There is a much bigger power imbalance between a 7 year old and his grandfather than there is between two brothers. This grandfather was also using humiliation against the child in addition to his intention to use violence.

The OP needs to know that he has been stopped in his tracks and will remain stopped.

Yes she needs to deal effectively with the hitting but there is no evidence on this thread that she is not doing so.

We don't know how hard the brother was hit or what other behaviour management strategies she and her DH would have used had the GF not interfered.

We don't know how many times his brother has hit him and how he has responded to that in the past and we don't know on how many previous occasions he has hit his brother.

I understand that you have had a bad experience and don't want the younger child to feel the same but that doesn't negate the seriousness of the actions of the grandfather.

The phone call could just as easily have been a way of making it clear that the attempt to smack was perfectly reasonable in the GP's view and they see no reason for the OP to raise any concerns about it.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Tue 26-Feb-13 15:41:05

If it's any consolation, flatbread, I was hit all the time for hitting my younger sibling. All I learned is that hitting someone smaller is a good way to get your own way. Not sure it would've helped your situation.

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 16:14:31

Gold, what we do know is the 7 year old hit his younger sibling twice and as far as we know, the only punishment was an ineffectual timeout.

There is a much bigger power imbalance between a 7 year old and his grandfather than there is between two brothers

God, this is so misguided. There is no comparison, unless the grandfather randomly hits the child whenever he feels like it.

It can be terrifying to be hit by an older sibling. Especially when you have done no wrong. It is just dependent on their mood and when they are in a bad mood, they take it out on you. Seriously, in some ways it is like being in an abusive relationship when you are tippy-toeing around the physically bigger person because they might suddenly hit you for no reason at all. It is physically painful and humiliating. And so unfair

As an adult, if I see an older sibling hit a younger one and get away with it, I don't think I could keep my beak out. I would not smack someone else's child but I would be very firm in telling the older child off.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 26-Feb-13 16:30:15

Its good that your dh who witnessed the incident agrees with you. How did the grandparents react when you screamed and made him stop?

Anything to surgest they took it on board?

Goldmandra Tue 26-Feb-13 16:57:58

It can be terrifying to be hit by an older sibling. Especially when you have done no wrong. It is just dependent on their mood and when they are in a bad mood, they take it out on you. Seriously, in some ways it is like being in an abusive relationship when you are tippy-toeing around the physically bigger person because they might suddenly hit you for no reason at all. It is physically painful and humiliating. And so unfair

This is quite an extreme example of sibling interaction and, I agree, a damaging and very undesirable situation. However there is no reason to think that it describes what is going on in the OP's home.

chocoholic05 Tue 26-Feb-13 17:07:23

No it is not what goes on with my boys most of the time. Though like most. Siblings they do have their moments. Normally putting ds in another room to calm down works and he had been very sternly told off. I know my ds had been very naughty but I don't want this to become a discussion about him.
Oh and my inlaws left soon. afterwards

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 17:08:53

I actually think it is more common than we think. Parents love their children equally and somehow think that the siblings love each other just as much. They might, but there is often a personality dynamics at play as well.

When we see a 7 year old, we see an adorable, naughty but essentially harmless child. For a 5 year old, on the other hand, he could be a tormentor. You might love your older sibling, but be very scared of them as well. And not understand why they lash out at you and think it is somehow your fault, even if you did nothing wrong. Not healthy.

A lot of children are just not very nice to their younger siblings. They can act superior, put them down. Hit them or pinch them when no one is looking. Stuff that parents often roll their eyes at. But it could be damaging to the younger child if done too often in the formative years.

Goldmandra Tue 26-Feb-13 17:12:13

Flatbread I think this is in important issue about which you clearly have very strong feelings.

Maybe you would be better starting a new thread devoted to it as it probably isn't really relevant to this one.

chocoholic05 Tue 26-Feb-13 17:16:47

I agree gold smile

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 17:22:42

I do think it is very relevant to this thread. It is about correcting an older child who is hitting a younger one.

Are only parents allowed to do it? What if their approach is not working and younger child is hit repeatedly?

Are you supposed to sit back and watch while sipping your coffee?

Btw, this is not to say PIL should have pulled ds pants down. But to point out that it is not unreasonable that he felt he had to butt in.

abbyfromoz Tue 26-Feb-13 18:05:07

I would be furious if ANYONE laid a hand on my child... I can't say I disagree with smacking as a parent entirely but not as a form of humiliation or aggression and certainly not from anyone but the parent! Even if fil wasn't going to smack him.. He pulled his pants down! Outrageous!!!

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 26-Feb-13 19:05:14

Flatbread.

The op is being very clear on wanting to focus on the attempted punishment and how to deal with that.

She has also been very clear that she and her dh were dealing with the bad behaviour.

The bad behaviour of her ds is a different issue to how acceptable the punishment his gp attempted to hand out.

anonymosity Wed 27-Feb-13 03:04:53

AbbyFromoz - what is smacking if not humiliation and aggression rolled into one? I remember being smacked and feeling totally humiliated by it.

Megatron Wed 27-Feb-13 04:27:35

Flatbread.

I think many of us have experienced being hit by an older sibling. My brother was 4 years older and dislocated my shoulder however I certainly do not wish that my parents had hit him, far from it. Regardless of personal experience I could never understand an adult physically hurting a small child. There is no excuse.

Contradictionincarnate Wed 27-Feb-13 04:31:47

he shouldn't have made any attempt at discipline whilst you were there anyway but its come from him trying to help think you need to sit down and have a word to explain your methods and ask them not to hit your children as discipline!

TheFallenNinja Wed 27-Feb-13 04:57:18

Easy one. Don't finish your tea, get the fuck out. Come back when you can explain why I'm angry.

coralanne Wed 27-Feb-13 07:04:14

My DGS is 7 and is a very gentle placid little boy. Usually.

Several years ago I was taking the DGC for a walk and DGS (4 at the time) and DGD (7 at the time) were walking along bickering with each other.DGS turned and spat at his sister.

I picked up his little hand and gave it a soft smack.

He was terrified and cried his eyes out and I was terrified and shocked that I had done that.

We sat down on a park bench. I cuddled him until he had stopped crying and then made him apologize to his sister.

I then explained to him that only camels spit and donkeys and horses kick. We then spent the next half hour thinking up things that only animals do and humans don't (or shouldn't do).

Even now, two years later he'll sometimes say. "Only camels spit don 't they Grandma"

I'm horrified that FIL actually pulled DS's pants down to smack him and just as the OP things the the earache might be a mitigating circumstance then maybe FIL had had enought of a 7 year old consistently going back and forward and hitting his sibling.

Maybe it was a spontaneous reaction that he regretted afterwards.

Must say that I never smacked my DC when they were growing up.

abbyfromoz Wed 27-Feb-13 07:40:23

Anonimosity- smacking and hitting are not the same. Smacking is a consequence that is usually rarely given after much consideration and with appropriate warning and explanation- not an enjoyable experience for either child or parent and never as a consequence for physical violence ('don't hit your brother! Smack!' Yeah that makes sense... not) Hitting on the other hand is usually a snap reaction out of anger or rage in an aim to channel your own anger. Most people don't understand the difference between the two- for those people i say smacking is not a choice for you.

coralanne Wed 27-Feb-13 07:56:57

Don't agree abby. Smacking and Hitting are exactly the same.

The consequences are the same.

abbyfromoz Wed 27-Feb-13 08:03:54

Carolanne- that's fine. As i said most don't understand the difference so probably not for you.

cory Wed 27-Feb-13 08:10:50

It isn't just about another adult correcting a child.

It is about a totally inappropriate way of correcting a child: pulling down the trousers of a 7yo. Wrong because of his age, also wrong because exposing your private parts in this fashion will be something the little boy should have been taught never to let anyone do.

Basically, it is a bad, bad way to discipline a child, even if you do believe in smacking.

And disciplining a child when the parent is present is not helping her: it is sending strong signals to the child that mummy can't make you obey, she is so weak that I have to help her.

I had to have words with my (very loving) father on this score: being slightly deaf he used to miss that I had just told ds off and would tell him off himself in almost identical words (you'd have thought the fact that my lips were moving was some kind of clue...). After a few weeks in their house, ds was getting more and more disrespectful towards me, which meant that he was misbehaving more than usual, not less. Fortunately my dad listened, I took back the reins and order was restored.

pigletmania Wed 27-Feb-13 08:10:53

This kind of punishment used to be the norm years ago when I was a child, unacceptable in this day and age. Yes it happened to me a few times, but im fine and many thers from that time are probably ok. There is a bit of an overreaction on here, tey are probably from thet old school where this was how they would discipline their dc.

Mabey sitting down with them ad telling them ho you feel, that you do not smack in this house and that it is unacceptable to smack dgc. Your methods were obviously not working tat they felt they had to intervene, mabey you need to be more firm with your ds. I hope he gets better soon smile

coralanne Wed 27-Feb-13 10:13:08

Umm*abby*. I entirely understand what you are saying.

However there is never any justification for smacking or hitting.

There is a trend at the moment for "king hitting". Usually late at night when different people (usually youths after a big night out) get into an altercation with someone else.

There have been reports of deaths eventuating from these king hits.

I'm sure these acts of king hitting weren't premediated but the results were devestating.

Greensleeves Wed 27-Feb-13 10:19:48

I posted on this yesterday and still feel completely revolted by it

my stepfather used to do exactly what your FIL was about to do OP. I remember the humiliation, the shock and pain. So does my brother. Stepfather was a perv as well as a bully.

Definitely agree you shouldn't ever let him take your dc out unsupervised.

Have you checked with your children that this hasn't happened before?

abbyfromoz Wed 27-Feb-13 10:20:03

Um carol... Sad....but I see no relevance. i feel no more desire to justify what i have said either... Kind of digressing from the main point of the OP. All the best.

coralanne Wed 27-Feb-13 22:48:33

Thanks abby. It is coral though.

Yes it is a very emotional subject. I think the OP reacted in exactly the same way as 99.9% of people would. (including me)smile

YANBU FIL has done it to dn when she was 10. She's now 12 & he still smacks, through clothes. The family set up is v different & sil (his dd) is lazy very passive. I don't object to smacking in certain, extreme cases, but never accompanied by pants down, never in response to a hitting incident & NEVER EVER by another adult if me or dh is present.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Wed 27-Feb-13 23:00:11

anonymosity smacking per se isn't illegal actually...
Obviously not commenting on OP's situation but only on that limited point.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Wed 27-Feb-13 23:02:26

Well said flatbread

True smacking is not illegal. Urban myth that. Beating shit out of them is frowned upon...

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 27-Feb-13 23:06:15

It is in Scotland with children under a certain age and it is a crime in England if any mark is left even if the mark is very temporary and fades quickly.

Cherriesarelovely Wed 27-Feb-13 23:07:36

UGH. I feel ill just reading about that. How horrible. Of course Yanbu. Your fil was totally out of order.

anonymosity Wed 27-Feb-13 23:48:57

So it is illegal Sockretuningpixie? I remember reading it was in the UK press in about 2007 or 2008

cory Wed 27-Feb-13 23:51:37

Only illegal if it leaves a mark anonymosity. There have been proposals to make it illegal but nothing has happened so far.

However, most people (and I suspect SS) would look very askance at a man who pulled down a 7yos trousers to administer punishment; that would be seen as inappropriate for his age group and borderline pervy. If the boy were to tell this story at school it could trigger an investigation.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 27-Feb-13 23:58:59

Incidently the mark could be as minor as a slight blush that disappears within minutes.

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 28-Feb-13 00:02:11

Oh and if no mark is left its only considered to be reasonable chastisement if its done by a person with PR,if you don't have or its automatically assault.

Someone with pr cannot just say that they said it was ok to do as you cannot give consent for an assault.

So its fairly safe to say its almost as good as being illegal

SirBoobAlot Thu 28-Feb-13 00:14:40

Don't care if it leaves a mark or not, hitting a child is wrong.

And if someone else hit my child, went to hit my child, or suggested that they should be hit, it would be a snowballs chance in hell that they would ever go anywhere near them again. Seeing as your DH was in the room, your FIL obviously does not give a shit about either of your opinions, or respect you in the slightest.

Fucking hell, I'm furious for you OP.

Lueji Thu 28-Feb-13 08:03:33

mil then said its a pity you don't smack him he'd probably be a lot better behaved!

And maybe if you punched them, they won't even consider smacking your child again without your permission and with pants down.

Totally on your side on this one.

However, BTW, you may want to revisit your disciplining and parenting strategies, though, if your child did behave like that, including hitting his brother more than once. Don't let it go away just because of what happened with PIL.
At 7 he should not be hitting his siblings repeatedly.

whiteflame Thu 28-Feb-13 09:04:05

I am with Flatbread. Agree that FIL was out of line, but everyone is up in arms because he almost hit DS1, when the younger sibling was actually hit, twice.

Goldmandra Thu 28-Feb-13 09:52:41

but everyone is up in arms because he almost hit DS1

That is because the OP has posted asking for opinions on how to deal with another adult behaving extremely inappropriately.

Dealing with a child hitting his brother is an important issue but also a whole different thread.

In the meantime let's credit her with the good sense to deal with it appropriately because we have no reason to suppose she isn't doing this and concentrate on the question she has asked.

whiteflame Thu 28-Feb-13 15:49:00

I disagree that my comment is not relevant. Of course the reasonableness of someone's behaviour is dependent on the circumstances.

To put it another way, YANBU to be annoyed about the method that FIL used. But, I rather think he has a point about your DSs behaviour in this instance.

chocoholic05 Sun 03-Mar-13 21:52:07

Using this thread as I'm too lazy to go through the details again! Basically mil suggested today about having the boys over Easter weekend at their caravan for two or three nights. It's about fifty miles away by the sea they have never stayed over at pil for so much as a night before even though they only live up the road. I said no for a number of reasons distance and it being time I wanted with the family etcetc! Mil not happy!

SanityClause Sun 03-Mar-13 21:54:58

Well, unfortunately they have lost your trust, and are going to have to gain it back before you let them be in sole charge of your DC.

chocoholic05 Sun 03-Mar-13 21:59:35

Exactly and why make the first sleepover such a distance away? Why have they never suggested a sleepover before?

pigletmania Sun 03-Mar-13 22:04:13

Smacking aside, it's an swfully long way without your children.

chocoholic05 Sun 03-Mar-13 22:12:54

Thats how I feel it is a very long way. Also this is the first time dh has ever had the whole of. Easter off since the dc were born as previously he has always had to work either the Saturday or good Friday or Easter Sunday orMonday but as he has recently changed jobs that is nolonger the case! Mil knows this so I was a bit taken aback tbh!

Goldmandra Sun 03-Mar-13 22:44:01

I don't think you have a choice about this. You can't send them away without all of you having had a frank discussion about the incident which started this thread.

They need an opportunity to express their views about your parenting and you need to show that you are hearing what they say but do not agree that their choice of discipline is better. You then need to make it very clear that you won't tolerate them ever using any sort of corporal punishment on your children and they need to acknowledge this and agree to abide by your wishes.

Until this conversation happens they will continue to believe that you just need to be shown how to discipline children properly and you will never be able to trust them alone with your children.

Aside from this issue you still have every right to say no. Your children aren't use to being away overnight and you would like to spend Easter together as a family. That is a very reasonable position to take.

Do you think this is them trying to make amends or them deciding to take your children away so they can 'sort them out'?

chocoholic05 Sun 03-Mar-13 22:51:13

they have been away before gold with my parents always local and never both boys together just never with my pil. My parents always maintain that having them one at a time is better because if I am honest they do have their moments and individually that situation just doesn't occur and they get loads of individual one to one attention! The boys really like that too! smile

chocoholic05 Sun 03-Mar-13 22:53:06

I honesty don't know what mil was thinking gold!!!

MIL is insane if she thinks that's a reasonable first sleepover even under normal circumstances.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 03-Mar-13 23:18:27

Gold.

Why does she have to listen to there views on her parenting and why does the op have to show she's heard them?

I would have thought a simple " you remove my child's clothes again and either smack o attempt to smack him and I will call the police, and no to the going away" would be more than acceptable

Yfronts Sun 03-Mar-13 23:36:33

I think IL's are totally out of order - he was wanting to hit a child for hitting another child. How crazy to use violence to stop child using violence. Very backwards. A a bad example too. Call the police next time.

BUT there are obviously some things that need ironing out with your DC. I agree with time out for hitting. You also need to work out why your son is hitting your other child? Does he need more attention form you? Can you watch and see what the underlying problem is. How can you encourage him to solve things through talking? Can you all sit down and work out a way forward?

Goldmandra Sun 03-Mar-13 23:49:08

Why does she have to listen to there views on her parenting and why does the op have to show she's heard them?

It isn't because I think their views are at all valid. It's because I think that people find it easier to let things like this go once they feel they have been listened to. The PILs think that their method of discipline is the only way and that the OP just won't give it a go. By allowing them to have their say and then putting her (and her DH's) views across they should all be able to move forward more positively.

What the FIL did was totally unacceptable and must never happen again but this whole family has to find a way to rebuild their relationships. Allowing others to have their say, even if you don't agree is a good way to start that process.

Letting them know the consequences if they try it again and saying no to the Easter trip should happen too of course.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 04-Mar-13 00:49:19

Fair point well presented.

I concur with that assessment. ( and it must have been very reasonable because I never concur with anything)

zipzap Mon 04-Mar-13 06:36:41

I think a simple 'no, you know we already have plans for easter' is fine. (and repeat it lots if she says that you weren't going away anywhere - planning to be alone at home for a whole Easter long weekend sounds a fab plan and is perfectly valid as a plan).

Then follow it with a 'I'm sure we can sort out a different time for the boys to have a sleepover with you once they (and I) are ready for it when hell freezes over maybe august 5th 2029 would be good?'

And then if they push for anything sooner than that, you need to have the talk and say that you are not prepared toilet them look after your dc until they buck up their ideas etc. Other posters are right - they are just going to see you as a childthat doesn't know how to parent 'properly' - ie their way - until you can impresson them that they are your children, you get to choose how they are parented and that their ways are now outdated and potentially illegal and that there is no way on earth you are prepared to leave your dc unaccompanied with them when you are in the same house let alone with a long distance between you.

Goldmandra Mon 04-Mar-13 08:33:32

Why thank you, Sockreturningpixie smile

Actually, when I pressed post I was thinking I hadn't expressed it very well at all but didn't have time to edit it grin

Lueji Mon 04-Mar-13 08:40:47

There's only on answer to that and it's
You have got to be kidding!
I don't trust you alone with my children.

chocoholic05 Mon 04-Mar-13 09:48:41

Ds2 has only ever stayed over my parents once for only one night. It was less than one nught! He's quite clingy by nnature and he even told me off for going out on Saturday night with friends! Didn't stop me though! smile

chocoholic05 Mon 04-Mar-13 09:50:12

Meant less than one day! Obviously haha!!!

chocoholic05 Mon 04-Mar-13 14:27:39

Oh and mil.is unbelievably easily offended. Last week was the first time I'd ever stood up to them. They do tend to take over especially if were visiting them things like making the dc fold their arms whilst waiting for food to be dished up. Odd stuff like that!

Greensleeves Mon 04-Mar-13 14:36:10

I would use MIL's crazy request as an opportunity to have the discussion you need to have about discipline and PIL's boundaries around the boys. You need to raise it with them anyway and this provides a platform.

I would want to meet PIL face to face, with dh, and make it absolutely clear that what he did to your son was totally unacceptable and if it happens again you will call the police. Don't let them trivialise it. It was assault.

I wouldn't allow them to have my children unsupervised at all, simple as that. And I'd make sure they knew why.

Your son must have felt so humiliated and scared.

saggyhairyarse Mon 04-Mar-13 19:53:23

Actually, it is not against the law for parents to smack their children but it is against the law for grandparents to do. He stepped over the line sad

Babybeesmama Mon 04-Mar-13 19:57:25

YADNBU! I'd of been livid! X

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 04-Mar-13 20:05:30

Saggy it is against the law if the child is under a certain age in Scotland

And in England if a mark is left the mark does not have to be long lasting.

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