To loathe lefties with a passion?

(363 Posts)
Abitwobblynow Mon 25-Feb-13 12:51:16

Came across this and loved it. Punctures left wing twats right between the eyes!

"The point is that the "hierarchy of victims " is not an accident nor unique to this case. It is the whole basis on which lefties' views and loyalties in any issue are shaped - i.e. not by its rights and wrongs, but by who the protagonists are.

Any group you can think of can be slotted somewhere into the heirarchy of those whom the left either likes - ethnic minorities, Muslims, communists, strikers, the disabled, women, gays, public sector workers, dole claimants, and criminals, for example - or loathes: Americans, Tories, farmers, taxpayers, men generally, bankers and owners of private wealth.

These hatreds instruct the left on any issue. If demonstrating NUM miners are forcibly dispersed by the police, they side with the miners. If the Countryside Alliance are dispersed by the police, however, they side with the police, because they like miners and hate farmers.

If a Tory government withdraws money from pensioners it's the epitome of evil. If an NHS worker leaves the elderly to starve to death in their own excrement, the left couldn't care less. The left isn't pro-elderly unless this means being anti-someone else. If the someone else is the NHS producer, then the left isn't pro-elderly any more. The side they pick is the producer, who matters more than the consumer.

Where it all goes tits up is when two different client groups are at each others' throats. So the leftist sympathises with the criminal in general - unless the crime is domestic violence. Then they sympathise with the woman. Unless, again, the man is a Muslim cleric, in which case the lefty has to look away. Reggae singers going on about shooting gays in the head: this does not compute. Gangs of Muslims threatening gays: does not compute. Black governments victimising their own citizens? Pretend it isn't happening.

The left doesn't really give a toss about miners. What matters is who else is involved. White British police? - side with the miners. Black Communist-controlled police? - side with the police, they're above reproach - or at any rate, above miners [reference to ANC police and black miners at Marikana].

As we've noted before, Lefties reduce every issue to a disgusting form of Top Trumps. They are, quite simply, morally incompetent."

Is it unreasonable to agree that lefties are morally incompetent?

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 12:53:11

And you are suggesting that there is not a similar conservative hierarchy? hmm

MeSoFunny Mon 25-Feb-13 12:54:12

extremely.

wow, how childish!

so every single person with left-wing views is a morally-incompetent twat?

major generalisation, there.

AutumnMadness Mon 25-Feb-13 12:55:01

OP, you forgot one more irritating leftie trait - we are pedantic buggers and like the sources of information used in arguments to be cited.

inde Mon 25-Feb-13 12:55:28

I would stop reading the Daily Mail and Telegraph if I were you. A few weeks abstinance and you will probably start to return to reality again.

Anyway YABU, you can't catagorise all left wingers as have the same thoughts anymore than you could right wingers.

DeepRedBetty Mon 25-Feb-13 12:55:52

I thought Orwell's sheep going 'four legs good, two legs bad' put it perfectly.

PeppermintPasty Mon 25-Feb-13 12:56:06

A lot of bigotry and hatred around today.

Blipbipbeep Mon 25-Feb-13 12:56:08

biscuit couldn't be bothered to read to the end of the post,

YABU

AutumnMadness Mon 25-Feb-13 12:56:10

I am also rather intrigued by the assertion that lefties don't like taxpayers.

i must be morally incompetent...

ouryve Mon 25-Feb-13 12:56:37

* Punctures left wing twats right between the eyes!*

Bit aggressive, aren't you?

Lottapianos Mon 25-Feb-13 12:57:09

'Morally incompetent'??? hmm

'Lefties' are not a homogenous group by the way

'Unless, again, the man is a Muslim cleric, in which case the lefty has to look away. Reggae singers going on about shooting gays in the head: this does not compute. Gangs of Muslims threatening gays: does not compute. Black governments victimising their own citizens? Pretend it isn't happening. '

I am a very proud 'leftie' and I certainly did not look away from any of these examples. I am disgusted by domestic violence (am a survivor myself), homophobia, racism in all its forms and misogyny. I am staunchly pro-choice and pro-drug legalisation and I consider myself anything but morally incompetent.

Where did you read this charming article by the way?

kittyandthegoldenfontanelles Mon 25-Feb-13 12:57:27

Are you being unreasonable?

erm...?

oh dear

confused

Are you being serious?

Reminds me of this joke:

How do you confuse a Daily Mail reader?
Tell them asylum seekers kill paedophiles.

Iggly Mon 25-Feb-13 12:59:47

YABU

Do you live in a world of black and white, left and right? hmm

We have more in common than we do not. Our political views do not make us the people that we are.

Limelight Mon 25-Feb-13 13:00:27

Wow you're angry! I think you might need a lie down my love.

Hullygully Mon 25-Feb-13 13:00:33

I agree!

I HATE lefties. I hate people that care about other people. It's dog eat dog and the devil take the hindmost and fuck everyone.

Hullygully Mon 25-Feb-13 13:00:56

Great joke, charliemosue

WestieMamma Mon 25-Feb-13 13:00:56

I'm rather intrigued at your 'The left doesn't really give a toss about miners'.

My dad was a staunch 'leftie'. He also spent most of his working life down a pit in Yorkshire, as did his brothers, and was a shop steward in the NUM. confused

<yawns>

Try harder next time.

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 25-Feb-13 13:01:12

YANBU.
Posts like the one the OP made are, however, often made by utter wankers.

tabulahrasa Mon 25-Feb-13 13:01:25

How bizarre.I assume that people with different political views to me have looked at the issue and decided what they think is right and wrong based on how they feel about the actual issue, because that's what I do.

It would never occur to me that they do so out of some strange hierarchical prejudice, unless of course that was how I thought about issues...

MeSoFunny Mon 25-Feb-13 13:01:45

Either YABU or you are Peter Hitchens. Either way your sanity is in need to attention.

Stangirl Mon 25-Feb-13 13:02:16

Charlie - love that joke.

gordyslovesheep Mon 25-Feb-13 13:02:51

What a simplistic yet no doubt crowd pleasing op

Try harder xxx

LahleeMooloo Mon 25-Feb-13 13:02:51

There isn't a single fact or piece, it's just a load of hot air.

fishcalledwonder Mon 25-Feb-13 13:04:01

What a lovely, enlightening and well-informed post. You sound delightful.

LahleeMooloo Mon 25-Feb-13 13:04:12

That should be piece of evidence

DeltaUniformDeltaEcho Mon 25-Feb-13 13:05:35

That's incredibly aggressive. And full of sweeping generalisations.

Personally, I'd side against those spouting that type of rubbish regardless of which way they hang.

Wallison Mon 25-Feb-13 13:06:35

I didn't know that Melanie Phillips had a mumsnet login. Oh well, you live and learn.

PS I AM EATING YOUR SWANS

BaldricksTurnip Mon 25-Feb-13 13:07:42

Well that's cleared that up then.

<baffled>

And.. I'm afraid all of your assertions are based on ignorance, bias and hatred so.. not worth any further attention.

OxfordBags Mon 25-Feb-13 13:07:55

I think you need to be asking AIHAMB - am I having a mental breakdown - because the OP makes absolutely no logical sense and is patently bullshit of the highest order that can be proved utterly wrong by, um, just having a bit of intelligence and insight into the world around you.

Everything you've written is so embarrassingly wrong, so stupid, illogical and such downright silly, kneejerk hysterical frothing, that I'd feel sorry for a child spouting such nonsense.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! <wipes eyes>

I luffs dramatic generalisations I do. And CharlieMouse's joke.

PS You'll be glad to know that the space between my twatty eyes remains totally unpunctured. Result!

PPS Did you mean punched? I'm quite intrigued about this puncturing thing.

DialsMavis Mon 25-Feb-13 13:08:40

Ha ha excellent grin, you really made a hard hitting point there and a very funny joke at the same time. As for all the posts disagreeing with you, I think some leftie liberal nerves have been hit ( who would have thought they had any nerves to be hit, the way they carry on wink).

FlouncingMintyy Mon 25-Feb-13 13:08:56

Is HQ going to let this one stand, I wonder?

I guess a leftie would argue your right to freedom of speech and for it to stay.

Me, I think it should be nuked and you should be banned.

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 25-Feb-13 13:09:29

It's also a bit 'Goady Fucker'

BaldricksTurnip Mon 25-Feb-13 13:09:35

^^ And what OxfordBags said

Wallison Mon 25-Feb-13 13:09:36

Humph. That's all very well for you to say, JeffTheGod, but actually I am drilling a hole between my twatty eyes so that the evil spirits can escape from it. With a drill I got from A MUSLIM.

Stangirl Mon 25-Feb-13 13:09:59

OP - that is the very definition of YABU.

Your title is a sweeping generalisation and mass attibution of the kind that your post then dismisses as a problem of "lefties".

FWIW I classify myself as a leftie but don't recognise my views in your post at all.

Oh, and the article is very poorly written. You really should have found something better to put your point across as the quality itself undermines your argument.

OutsideOverThere Mon 25-Feb-13 13:10:05

Did you find that on Facebook, OP?

LOL

whataloadofbollocks

SoniaGluck Mon 25-Feb-13 13:10:37

I didn't know that Melanie Phillips had a mumsnet login. Oh well, you live and learn. grin

As for the OP, biscuit. I really CBA even to engage with such nonsense.

gordyslovesheep Mon 25-Feb-13 13:10:41

I borrowed a drill from a black miner

dawntigga Mon 25-Feb-13 13:11:24

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA biscuit

WondersIfItIsStillHalfTermSomewhereTiggaxx

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 25-Feb-13 13:11:42

You have to wonder what happened to create this strength of feeling. Did a one armed, Muslim, gay wheelchair using individual burgle their Ouse or something?

4TheLoveOfBob Mon 25-Feb-13 13:11:54

Sounds like the work of a particularly dim Young Tory. Or maybe Young UKIP (do UKIP have any 'young' members?).

YABU

libelulle Mon 25-Feb-13 13:11:57

Could MN towers possibly consider introducing some special green ink for posters such as this? And then also a 'hide green ink' button?

Love the DM asylum/paedophile joke.

BlissfullyIgnorant Mon 25-Feb-13 13:12:34

They don't like being compared to Nazis either. But...
In 1920, Adolf Hitler announced he was changing his party's name to the National Socialist German Workers Party.
In 2007, during a party conference, Gordon Brown announced he wanted to forget all about New Labour, and reinvent the party, a New New Labour, if you will. He called it the National Socialist British Labour Party.
I was chilled by this, but the party faithful in both audiences gave rousing cheers. For sources, try Google - it's all out there!

Apart from that, whenever Government (of any persuasion) do something the people in general dislike, lefties call rallies which often turn into riots, while the right roll their eyes and tut.

SolomanDaisy Mon 25-Feb-13 13:12:35

The article sounds like it was written by a particularly dim right-wing 15 year-old. I am surprised anyone could do anything other than yawn on reading it.

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 25-Feb-13 13:13:22

4thelove they've got loads of young members, they euthanise the over 80s wink

FillyPutty Mon 25-Feb-13 13:13:24

YANBU but a bit daft to think you will get much support on here.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 25-Feb-13 13:13:51

How very attention-seeking of you, Abitwobbly

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:14:24

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Feelingood Mon 25-Feb-13 13:15:04

I'm so unpolitical and poorly not grown up that I thought this was would be about left handed ness and was about to storm in and defend myself.

grin

weegiemum Mon 25-Feb-13 13:15:08

Where's this from? It's such a load of unresearched twatty nonsense I'm not sure, but I think the reading age is beyond the target age for the DM.

Leftie and proud!

RatherBeOnThePiste Mon 25-Feb-13 13:15:32

<snort>

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 25-Feb-13 13:16:36

I don't like posters whose username begins with r and appears to have their year of birth in it. They're often dim and make sweeping generalisations about things they know nothing about.

RedwingOnFire Mon 25-Feb-13 13:16:57

Damn, I'm a leftie and married to an American taxpayer, didn't realise I was supposed to loathe him! He's a leftie too!! I will pass along this persuasive erudie argument and am sure he will commence self-hatred forthwith!!

RatherBeOnThePiste Mon 25-Feb-13 13:17:44

Punctured though?

My bike has a puncture, tis quite sad looking sad

RedwingOnFire Mon 25-Feb-13 13:19:11

I prefer a rather more nuanced rightwing leftwing argument rather than knee jerk stereotypes myself!

Wallison Mon 25-Feb-13 13:19:38

Let me at it with my drill. I'll show you sad looking, RatherBe.

Tweasels Mon 25-Feb-13 13:19:39

Oh I thought you were talking about left handed people.

Has Margaret Thatcher joined mumsnet? I'm disappointed she hasn't thought of a better username.

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:20:04

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BaldricksTurnip Mon 25-Feb-13 13:21:02

And also, where are all these 'lefties' ? Are they easy to spot in the street, marked apart from normal people by their fervent frothing and <whispers> liberalism? What you call a 'leftie' point of view, I call the starting point for empathy, compassion and the only way of operating which takes other people's well being into consideration. The government we have at the moment is ruthless and self serving, and how can any progress be made by a government who cares nothing for the people it is supposed to serve and represent. Show me in history, an example of a successful political system which is not based on concern for the people?

OutsideOverThere Mon 25-Feb-13 13:21:02

eh? What are you talking about Rhiannon?

RedwingOnFire Mon 25-Feb-13 13:21:17

Wonder if someone will ever use the slogan Like Miners Hate Farmers !!

I guess people of all political persuasions can be guilty of not thinking their arguments through. But I've found this phenomenon to be at least as common amongst those of a right wing persuasion !

I don't like ambidextrous people, in fact I loathe them with a passion, prancing around using both hands, 'look at me, look at me, aren't I superior'
Nobs the lot of them grin

JacqueslePeacock Mon 25-Feb-13 13:22:20

My mouth actually fell open at this. I'm glad I wasn't anywhere in public because I must have looked a right idiot. I had no idea anyone seriously held views like this. I think I tend to assume people are generally quite a bit brighter than they actually are. confused

FlouncingMintyy Mon 25-Feb-13 13:22:24

Mind you, this sort of thread is terribly helpful for the old spreadsheet.

gordyslovesheep Mon 25-Feb-13 13:22:25

Yes beacuse having a similar name means you are actually the same @wherearethebrightrightwingers

WestieMamma Mon 25-Feb-13 13:22:55

It's all relative anyway. In the country I live in the 'righties' are more left than the UK 'lefties'. Which leaves me very confused.

RedwingOnFire Mon 25-Feb-13 13:23:18

Well I don't know any lefties that have started their own business.

That's a real LOL comment!!

My experience = the total of reality!!

PoppadomPreach Mon 25-Feb-13 13:24:03

Did you mean to sound so stupid?

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:24:27

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DialsMavis Mon 25-Feb-13 13:24:39

Rhiannon's posts are always good value, she reminds me a bit of Nanna from the Royle family, it's like she wakes up on the middle of a thread but fails to grasp the gist of what is being discussed. She then just spouts off a load of seemingly unrelated guff. I think she might be a prototype spambot that just jumbles and repeats stuff from the comments on the Daily Mail website.

RedwingOnFire Mon 25-Feb-13 13:24:41

I guess people of all political persuasions can be guilty of not thinking their arguments through. But I've found this phenomenon to be at least as common amongst those of a right wing persuasion !

Probably because they're busy starting their own business and hugging farmers!

Spoonful Mon 25-Feb-13 13:24:57

DH is a lefty with two businesses. He only employs immigrant women too, he is that committed to the cause & so idealistic.

(Well, he only employs one woman. She happens to be German-American. But still.)

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

twofingerstoGideon Mon 25-Feb-13 13:25:10

Rhiannon
Well I don't know any lefties that have started their own business.

You need to get out a bit more then.

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:25:14

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Wallison and gordyslovesheep, are you playing "Who got their drill from the most politically correct source" Top Trumps? I made MY drill from organically sourced lentils, ensuring that no ethnic minorities, Muslims, communists, strikers, the disabled, women, gays, public sector workers, dole claimants, and criminals were harmed. Ha!
.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:26:52

Am feeling distinctly unpunctured...!

PessaryPam Mon 25-Feb-13 13:28:06

Well Abitwobblynow I would broadly concur with you. It seems to be absolutely fine for the left to bang on about how they hate Tories or (heaven forfend, UKIP) but they get upset when they are attacked.

NC78 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:28:19

"Well I don't know any lefties that have started their own business. Economic reality tends to put paid to lofty ideals fairly quickly, I have found."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think i remember hearing that Alan Sugar has donated £££'s to the Labour party in the past.

gordyslovesheep Mon 25-Feb-13 13:28:25

Hahaha I am also playing lefty business top trumps ...my ex is a lefty and has a very successful business

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:28:38

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DialsMavis Mon 25-Feb-13 13:28:38

Work shy, forrin, leftie drills coming over here to puncture between our eyes... They don't even do a proper job.

3monkeys3 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:28:55

I had to stop reading The Guardian on Facebook be side I couldn't bear the prescribed, left for the sake of being left, comments. So I do think there are some lefties out there who do just take the accepted left position regardless of any shades of grey. However, it is ignorant beyond belief to generalise about any group of people (even Daily Mail readers!).

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:29:00

RedwingonFire, what is your idea of reality?

My reality is not one where I extrapolate a supposed truth purely from personal experience!

gordyslovesheep Mon 25-Feb-13 13:29:21

PST Pam ...no one is upset ...its as funny as fuck!

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:29:43

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3monkeys3 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:29:46

Because, not be side!

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:29:50

But what if some people are wrong AND stupid?!?

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:30:42

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BaldricksTurnip Mon 25-Feb-13 13:30:55

To clarify. Care about people. Read 'create and implement policies which benefit society as a whole, incorporating fairness and compassion'. Not 'pursue selfish goals which care nothing for the benefit of the people, except a tiny minority of highly paid corrupt lizards who screw everyone else mercilessly for their own benefit'.

Asamumnonsense Mon 25-Feb-13 13:30:58

Rhiannon86 which hole do you live in? Dig yourself out of it and check again!!

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:31:59

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Okay I saw this thread and thought it was about left-handed people and was about to get all huffy....

As you were with the political discussion.

PeppermintPasty Mon 25-Feb-13 13:33:16

wobbly, what is occurring here?

tabulahrasa Mon 25-Feb-13 13:33:18

'Well I don't know any lefties that have started their own business. Economic reality tends to put paid to lofty ideals fairly quickly, I have found.'

I only know two people who have told me they have right wing views, coincidentally they're both on benefits - well I say coincidentally, I could I suppose conclude that people with right wing political views are hypocritical and willing to compromise their ideology for money.

I don't, but that's because I don't make wide sweeping assumptions based on just my social circle.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:33:39

So what is it then? How do you have a personal reality that is not from personal experience?

The question was about reality, not personal reality. Just because YOU don't personally know someone who does X simply cannot equal no-one does X!! That's bizarre!!

Nancy66 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:33:47

I do find a lot of very left wing people to be very idealistic and naive about things.

gordyslovesheep Mon 25-Feb-13 13:36:07

I don't know many utterly stupid people in real life but I know they exist!

*smuggles a few more Muslim lesbian drill waving minors into the UK

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:36:17

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^BlissfullyIgnorant Mon 25-Feb-13 13:12:34

They don't like being compared to Nazis either. But...
In 1920, Adolf Hitler announced he was changing his party's name to the National Socialist German Workers Party.
In 2007, during a party conference, Gordon Brown announced he wanted to forget all about New Labour, and reinvent the party, a New New Labour, if you will. He called it the National Socialist British Labour Party.
I was chilled by this, but the party faithful in both audiences gave rousing cheers. For sources, try Google - it's all out there^

That's just twaddle. Brown said nothing of the sort - for a transcript of his speech to conference in 2007 see here and video of it is also easily available online. The "National Socialist British Labour Party" thing was written by a Revolutionary socialist blogger taking the piss out of Brown a week before the actual speech.

But please, tell us more about how you listened to this non-existent speech and how chilled you felt by it when you heard it. It's a fascinating story.

Tweasels Mon 25-Feb-13 13:36:34

Oh Rhiannon, you are funny.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 13:37:02

"So what is it then? How do you have a personal reality that is not from personal experience? "

Maybe a combination of personal experience, listening to other people's personal experience, reading newspapers of different political convictions, reading books, listening to the news...

It doesn't take a vast amount of detective work to discover that there are, in fact, successful businessmen who donate money to the Labour party and who do therefore, presumably, support of their politics.

gordyslovesheep Mon 25-Feb-13 13:37:29

Miners ...although they may well be under 18!

magimedi Mon 25-Feb-13 13:37:51

biscuit to OP

But still laughing at CahrlieMouseWillDoit's joke -which is worth repeating for anyone who can't be arsed to read this whole thread:

^How do you confuse a Daily Mail reader?
Tell them asylum seekers kill paedophiles.^

TheFallenNinja Mon 25-Feb-13 13:38:36

Don't know, don't care. I'll look after me and mine not some tosspot politician.

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:38:36

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throckenholt Mon 25-Feb-13 13:39:16

I read this title and thought it referred to left handed people ! I wondered by the OP was so against left handers. And then a I scanned the latest posts and read the bit about more lefties working in the public sector - I was a tad confused.

Moral - read the thread in the right order.

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:39:53

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LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:41:37

I know Tory voters in real life! We get along! shock

I also know people that are anti-religion and I'm a Christian. And we get along! shock

This simplistic bollocks is ill thought out tribalism which helps no-one and hardens hearts.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 13:42:08

WRhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:39:53
"Maybe a combination of personal experience, listening to other people's personal experience, reading newspapers of different political convictions, reading books, listening to the news..."
But that is all personal experience. Or do you think that I don't do any of the same?"

In that case your "don't know any lefties who have started businesses" is a little odd.

How is it possible to read books and papers and not know of any business men who support Labour?

MiniTheMinx Mon 25-Feb-13 13:43:54

>>>A government should dictate spending by what is affordable, not dictate spending by "need" and then worry about where the money is coming from later<<<

Any economic and social system should be judged on it's ability to meet ALL human(s) need. If capitalism appears to be doing a very poor job.....that's because it only serves the needs of a few.

BaldricksTurnip Mon 25-Feb-13 13:43:55

Rhiannon86 You need to educate yourself on the difference between 'subjective' and 'objective'.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 13:44:14

Rhiannon, could you explain to me why the UK is still stuck in the recession and has a far lower growth rate than other similar countries, when the high spending, welfare orientated northern European countries are putting the recession behind them?

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:44:36

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weegiemum Mon 25-Feb-13 13:45:22

I don't like to reply to Rhiannon but I can't see how myself (a teacher for adults with literacy issues for a charity) and my dh ( a GP in a rural area of multiple deprivation) are any less "grounded in reality" than you are.

I see the real world staring me in the face on every day I teach. Don't denigrate people who choose public sector jobs, unless you plan to take nothing, ever, from the public sector again.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 13:46:50

presumably the established businessmen had to start somewhere too? or do you suppose they were die hard Torys until they got to a stage in life where they would be taxed more heavily?

Do you know what, I think that drill's done me good! No more shall I care about wider society, those who are unable to look after "me and mine" and need help, or suffer injustice. It's all about me! Me! Me Me Me! Fuck you leftie bastards with your caring and your sharing and wanting to make the world a better place for OTHER PEOPLE who ARE NOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU. Lock the door DH, I think someone's after my drill. Unless its a white man, BEAT THEM TO A PULP.

tabulahrasa Mon 25-Feb-13 13:48:33

'Established business men who support Labour isn't the same as lefties starting businesses. It's easy to throw money around when you're a millionaire. It's a lot harder when you're just starting out and having to run a tight ship just to stay afloat.'

So, left wing people don't start businesses because it doesn't work with their politics, but right wing people start businesses and while becoming successful business men realize that right wing policies are wrong and become left wing?

MiniTheMinx Mon 25-Feb-13 13:50:18

I would stick around and defend left politics but I have a business to run toodoodledo !

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 13:50:30

I think it is very touching to imagine these successful businessmen looking around them and saying "now that I have got more money I realise what we need a system where wealthy people are taxed more heavily; I shall abandon my earlier beliefs and support such a system". Quite restores your faith in humanity, doesn't it?

MooncupGoddess Mon 25-Feb-13 13:50:38

Have you paid any attention to the news over the past couple of decades, OP? Lefties of the sort you mention were always rare and are now virtually non-existent. It's like you've spent 30 years living in Liverpool under the Militant Tendency and haven't revised your ideas since.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:51:48

Established business men who support Labour isn't the same as lefties starting businesses. It's easy to throw money around when you're a millionaire. It's a lot harder when you're just starting out and having to run a tight ship just to stay afloat.

But people think differently. Plenty of people without lots of money still support levels of taxes which benefit those less well off than they are! They just do, because they think it's the right thing to do! That doesn't change if they're starting a business. I dislike dragging out the I know someone thing, but the only left wing person I know which has started a business is also seeing that business fold, but they haven't suddenly turned right wing due to that!! The other person I know who has talked about starting a business when he's amassed enough money is also left wing and supports high taxation and he earns enough he gets taxed very highly, especially on his bonus!

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:53:37

If only people who got really really rich would then become left wing and let the money trickle down instead of stashing it in tax havens!!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ComposHat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:55:27

Oh look Rhiannonhas shown up, there's a surprise!

That'll be two idiots whose idiots are temporarily indisposed.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 13:55:38

Ah well, stuff to do, like failing to start a business and hating farmers!!

tabulahrasa Mon 25-Feb-13 13:56:12

'I think it is very touching to imagine these successful businessmen looking around them and saying "now that I have got more money I realise what we need a system where wealthy people are taxed more heavily; I shall abandon my earlier beliefs and support such a system". Quite restores your faith in humanity, doesn't it?'

grin that actually made me lol

WestieMamma Mon 25-Feb-13 13:56:39

John Cadbury was always a fierce leftie.

Orwellian Mon 25-Feb-13 13:59:14

YANBU OP. But this is Mumsnet! The armed wing of The Guardian. You will have little sympathy with your explanation here.

MoreBeta Mon 25-Feb-13 14:04:08

Well I do agree with much of what the Op says about The Labour Party having a very definite attitude that it 'owns' certain groups (eg women, disabled, Asian, Black, immigrant) that should never question voting Labour.

It is actually quite insulting.

Funny thing is in my town the vote from local Asian business community is what supports the local Tory candidate so it doesnt even work.

Iggly Mon 25-Feb-13 14:04:20

I do find a lot of very left wing people to be very idealistic and naive about things
As are the right wingers who think that benefit cutting will solve everything. Or that the world is split into us and lefties.

Nancy66 Mon 25-Feb-13 14:04:32

A lof of the MN leftie stuff feels very fake to me though...like it's borne out of a desperate need to be in with a certain clique on here.

Chandon Mon 25-Feb-13 14:04:59

Op, you posting this on such a leftie forum as MN is a bit like walking into a Hells Angel's bar and insulting them, then throwing a puppy at them. ( this happened in Germany a few weeks ago! Did anyone else read this?)

KatieMiddleton Mon 25-Feb-13 14:05:49

Wow op. I was a leftie but having read that I'm now totally with you.

Up the tax-paying Tory farmers!

Down with all the marginalised and discriminated groups mentioned in the op!!! How dare they expect to be treated like decent human beings!

<buys Daily Mail, screws morals hard against an ATM machine full of luuuurvely money!>

MoreBeta Mon 25-Feb-13 14:07:02

Oh and I grew up on a farm and once voted for David Miliband.

Something wrong there. grin

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 14:07:36

I am gripped by the philosophical question of what constitutes Reality (the rest being presumably Illusion).

So far we have gathered that:

It is something that no public sector employee knows anything about. So nothing that could possibly be experienced by a firefighter, policeman, social worker, teacher, A & E nurse, council employed street sweeper or road mender, hospital consultant, paramedic or dinner lady. Reality is something far harsher indeed.

It is also something rich people, such as successful businessmen, know nothing about. And may be assumed never to have known anything about, since success confers immediate amnesia on its victim.

I would also be prepared to bet that the lofty canopies of Reality do not shelter people on benefits, asylum seekers, fulltime carers etc.

So Reality is something reserved for the Select Few, those who have started small businesses but have not (yet) made a success of them.

Oh well, the rest of us will just have to make do with Illusion then.

amillionyears Mon 25-Feb-13 14:07:41

Ooh heck Abit.
I dont see how any group of several million people can be lumped together in one mass.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 14:09:05

Farmers are a possibility for inclusion in the Reality zone, but Rhiannon does not mention them. Better not be rich farmers, one supposes.

seeker Mon 25-Feb-13 14:10:50

Since when has Mumsnet been a leftie forum?

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 14:13:39

dunno, seeker, I have certainly come across plenty of tories over the years

most of them aren't loons though- that does make a difference

kitty1976 Mon 25-Feb-13 14:13:48

A lot of the points in the OP are true, however there is no chance posters here would agree, you are in a minority, most of the posts here are focused on calling Tories twats. Everyone on this forum seems to have forgot the mess Labour got us into and wants to carry on spending money we don't have.

THERhubarb Mon 25-Feb-13 14:14:19

It's on threads like this when I really wish there was an option to just block certain posters.

Attention-seeking, time-wasting, narrow-minded posters of any race, religion or political spectrum would definitely be on my block list.

weegiemum Mon 25-Feb-13 14:15:42

I'd love to get any "righties" (is that even a word) to come and live for a week on the sink housing estate in Glasgow where we live, experience what the people we know do, meet the destitute asylum seekers our church cares for (though I'm sure they'd think I'm a rightie too as I go to church, and that the AS we work with should be sent home!).

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes, then debate what the policies would be.

KatieMiddleton Mon 25-Feb-13 14:15:53

Mumsnet is quite liberal and tolerant so I can see how it would be perceived as leftie. Definitely more Guardian than Daily Mail in tone and ethos.

There are quite a few with leftie tendencies but also quite a few who sit on the right and the majority somewhere in the middle and/or tending to the left/right on certain issues. Thank goodness. Would be horrible if we were all the same.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 14:15:56

some of us are remembering that it was an international recession which most other countries, with more competent governments, have got out of by now, kitty, and that economic experts are saying that the austerity measures are holding us back

MoreBeta Mon 25-Feb-13 14:16:06

Its very hard to pin these 'right wingers down.

A lot of family farms barely make a living. Many should be claiming 'in work' benefits and things like free school meals but steadfastly refuse to.

Those 'lefties' are just as tricky.

They might be reading the Giuardian while sipping Fairtrade cafe latte and still living in a £2 million house and planning a ski holiday while sending DCs to a private school.

WestieMamma Mon 25-Feb-13 14:16:37

A lot of the points in the OP are true

Such as?

weegiemum Mon 25-Feb-13 14:17:27

Oh and I notice we still don't have a source for this article?

Fascinating excerpt in the opening post I could almost see the steam coming out of the ears of the author (love to know where it came from) - it is not in the least upsetting as there has to be a recognisable truth in order for something to be offensive.

The left can be criticised for being too fond of factions and in-fighting rather than being robotic in supprting 'sides' the main characteristic is that there is no unified 'left wing' - in my own family we range from Anarchists, to Socialist workers, to new Labour to old Labour and practically liberal - all could be described as 'Lefties' but you can be assured that in any given arguement there would be opposing sides/ views! So trying to paint Lefties as morally incomptetant and unable to appreciate nuance is baffling to me. I have no issue with people disagreeing with me (there are obviously sadly deluded wink but whatever) but this argument in the op is flawed imo. So you abusmile

KatieMiddleton Mon 25-Feb-13 14:20:10

I think a lot of people are just taking the piss out of the extreme and ridiculous op TheRhubarb. I know I was.

Still laughing at tax-payers and Muslims as examples of politicial idealists rather than just erm, groups of people totally seperate and unrelated to political parties.

AmberLeaf Mon 25-Feb-13 14:21:37

What a load of bollocks.

Poor old Wibbly, you are unravelling dear.

AmberLeaf Mon 25-Feb-13 14:22:21

sorry wobbly

Yorkpud Mon 25-Feb-13 14:23:23

YABU - is this a joke post??

Oh and starting a business or shock horror wanting to make money - is not the sole concern of the right wing individual - I like working and earning money and spending it - I also am left wing and concerned about the way in which individuals are treated in order to maximise profit therefore cooperatives and fairtrade businesses are enterprises I like to support when I can. My father was a key mamber of the Industrial Common Ownership Movement (ICOM) in the 70's and 80's and a business adviser who helped set up a number of Cooperative business ventures all motivated by the desire to combine ethics and business - it is possible.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 14:25:45

most of the posts here are focused on calling Tories twats

?!?!

The OP said Punctures left wing twats right between the eyes

The use of the word on the thread is in direct reference to that!

Something for cory's reality research!! wink

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 14:26:26

I have a very simple way of dividing Tories, MoreBeta:

a) sensible and civilised people who just happen to have different political views from me

and

b) loons

Category b) is thankfully somewhat smaller than category a). I think you might find the same method works equally well for leftwingers. wink

Olgathebrickshed Mon 25-Feb-13 14:27:12

Abitwobbly: you get the prize for making me laugh with your thread title. And no, yanbu. In fact, it's marvellous to come across something on MN that isn't crooning over the loony left.

Absy Mon 25-Feb-13 14:29:18

Strange that the OP has not come back ...

Very interesting.

Though, I read Condoleeza Rice's autobiography, and she made an intriguing point (as a black woman who was a staunch Republican). She said one of the reasons she was a Republican (also because the Republicans had let her father register as a voter, their support of the NRA and other stuff) is because she would rather be ignored than patronised (the Democrats at the time were selling themselves as the party of "women, blacks, and other minorities"). It was an interesting viewpoint.

Anyway.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 14:30:09

I only ever meet Category B's online! The Tories I know in real life are all a's!

Spoonful Mon 25-Feb-13 14:35:04

On another note, my friend has a lorry called Katie Middleton so every time I see you post, katiemiddleton, it makes me think of a lorry.
confused

theodorakisses Mon 25-Feb-13 14:35:31

I come from a very very lefty family, my stepdad is a unionist and although they are a little bit champagne I respect him with a passion. since he met my mum, he has changed the posh little village she lives in. It used to be council houses on one side, cottages and the old school and hospital on the other, along with the "big house". he has changed it beyond recognition, although an athiest, the church and the "church types" now running reading groups, homework sessions where local teachers volunteer to hear children read (in homes where books are considered a waste of time), cricket, football, cycling and lots and lots of local events. i live in ME, tax free and am not a socialist by any means but if people like him are putting their money where their mouth is and tirelessly fighting for people in every walk of life regardless of them being titled or in a council house, homeless or whatever I am reluctant to judge. He has also fought for a school bus (to save some getting a taxi to themselves because they are on benefits and others who are not having to make private arrangements) and a regular bus to town at a subsidised rate and opened up the cycle lane, provided free bikes and has everyone wanting the best for their village. If that's socialism, fine by me. the flower show, dog show, ferret racing, jumbles, etc are actually quite fun especially when he insists that the "bad" teenagers run the car park.

Lovelygoldboots Mon 25-Feb-13 14:38:12

There are plenty of different view points on mumsnet. Saying this is a "leftie" site is utter bollocks. We live in a democracy and if you are a grown up you will have your own point of view. op, if you don't mind me saying you are a goady twat.

KatieMiddleton Mon 25-Feb-13 14:39:43

Your friend has excellent taste Spoonful

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 14:40:00

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MooncupGoddess Mon 25-Feb-13 14:40:43

Loving cory's epistemological musings.

Dawndonna Mon 25-Feb-13 14:40:53

Oh, Grow up, OP.
hmm

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 14:41:43

Same experience here, LeftwingTwat. I do hope it is not a sign of our lack of contact with Reality...

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

seeker Mon 25-Feb-13 14:43:36

"Of course Mumsnet is a "leftie" site!"

In what way?

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 14:43:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Tanith Mon 25-Feb-13 14:44:01

Wondering if Rhiannon has ever heard of a man called Richard Branson...

Lovelygoldboots Mon 25-Feb-13 14:44:25

There are plenty of Tories on here. I've seen them. I might not always agree with them but they don't have green scaly skin and come from another planet.

ComposHat Mon 25-Feb-13 14:45:02

Of course Mumsnet is a "leftie" site!

You seem curiously unconstrained by anything approaching evidence. You saying something over and over again doesn't make it true.

seeker Mon 25-Feb-13 14:51:26

If I had to categorise mumsnet, politically, I would call it soft centre right, with noticeable outliers.

larrygrylls Mon 25-Feb-13 14:53:43

They are missing out on the general hypocrisy of the left:

They want higher taxes on the "rich". The "rich" always starts at about 1.5x to 2x whatever they are earning, whatever they are earning. They also never freely donate money to HMRC, despite there being no prohibition in so doing.

They detest private education except for their own children.

They love mutlicultural society but prefer to live in nice sheltered enclaves where the local Pakistani population speak immaculate English and are mostly doctors and lawyers.

I could go on....

Brilliant article, by the way.

FillyPutty Mon 25-Feb-13 14:55:06

seeker: that's because you hang out in the Education board. wink

AmberLeaf Mon 25-Feb-13 14:56:51

More bollocks generalisations none of which are true either from larrygrylls.

I love multicultural society and I actually live slap bang in the middle of it.

xigris Mon 25-Feb-13 14:57:02

Are you Jeremy Hunt in disguise?

GothAnneGeddes Mon 25-Feb-13 14:57:03

Not this rubbish about "enclaves". I live in a working class area that is hugely multicultural and staunchly Labour.

"Of course Mumsnet is a "leftie" site!"

Isn't it also a business? Except it can't be, because of course lefties don't found businesses. D'oh!

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 14:58:33

I think leaving the politics aside for one moment, this is a really nasty, spiteful post from someone who is a prolific poster and has had a lot of support on the boards from the kind of people she is so quick to denigrate.

People will draw their own conclusions from that.

MrsDeVere Mon 25-Feb-13 15:02:14

I am left wing.

I am not morally incompetent and I don't know what dear old larry is on about.

A lot of stereotyping nonsense as usual.

You know, like MN is full of MC, leftie speaking, right wing acting nimbies....oh an they make cupcakes and knit their own tampons whilst driving their 4 x 4s

Yawn.

Last time I checked we were all still individuals. Thinking that those of us who wish to protect the most vulnerable are amoral says more about those who think it than those it is thought about.

Whatever.

FillyPutty Mon 25-Feb-13 15:03:34

OP YABU because you haven't come back to source this load of rubbish, which reads as if it's been copied from a Youth BNP propaganda sheet, or some 6th form debating notes that are trying to provoke an extreme reaction.
FWIW I do agree that anyone who holds the beliefs outlined on your OP is a bit of a twat. But I don't think that the left do hold those views. Just as I don't believe all Tories swig champagne whilst wiping their feet on a prole.
And as for "punctures..between the eyes", well that just makes you sound charmless and illiterate.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Mon 25-Feb-13 15:08:37

Abitwobbly, you do realise that every paragraph of your OP could be inverted to create a stereotyped parody of right-wing views?

..."the hierarchy of those whom the right either loathes - ethnic minorities, Muslims, communists, strikers, the disabled, women, gays, public sector workers, dole claimants, and criminals, for example - or likes: Americans, Tories, farmers, taxpayers, men generally, bankers and owners of private wealth."

Do you feel that would be an appropriate representation of your own views? confused

So, I'm not entirely sure the rant has pwned 'the left' in quite the way you seem to imagine.

(It also reads a bit like that discredited 'holiday trees at the White House' spiel that was doing the rounds a while back, anyone else think that?)

larrygrylls Mon 25-Feb-13 15:24:08

"Abitwobbly, you do realise that every paragraph of your OP could be inverted to create a stereotyped parody of right-wing views?"

But, that is why I like it! The parody of right wing views is the norm and this is the exception. It was New Labour who so successfully labelled the Tories the "nasty" party, so much so that even the word "Tory" became tarnished.

A lot of left wingers do consider themselves fundamentally "nicer" than right wingers and it just ain't so. I have observed plenty of hypocrisy among the left, some of which I highlighted above. They are huge generalisitions and there are some very kind thoughtful people on the left, as much as the right. The real debate should be about how we want our resources to be distributed and who is most effective at doing it, the state or the private sector or some combination. As long as the left try and make it a test of moral character, though, I think it is fair to debate on the same terms.

EldritchCleavage Mon 25-Feb-13 15:24:38

Very cunning, if crude, button-pressing OP.

But actually, clientalism [[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clientelism explained here]] not is confined to the left-the right does it too.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 15:24:53

Yes, I've got my own Filly but I don't like those kind of threads either.

EldritchCleavage Mon 25-Feb-13 15:24:55

Bloody link fail. Sorry.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 15:26:05

My own opinions, I mean to say.

Perhaps someone has hacked her account? It does happen.

ComposHat Mon 25-Feb-13 15:29:47

larry This is a fantasy, these people exist only in your mind, this is a caricature that you have dreamt up.

Brilliant article, by the way

You appear to be a very undemanidng reader if you consider this to be a brilliant article. If you consider that to be brilliant, you may also enjoy the work of Dan Brown and whoever wrote the Topsy and Tim series.*

*If you suspect that by suggesting that you may enjoy a series of 1970s children's books, that I am implying you are not overly blessed with the grey matter, then you would be correct.

Yeh, it didn't seem like her to me either ( but I haven't got either spread-sheets or a photographic memory - mine's more like a goldfish one ! blush )

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Mon 25-Feb-13 15:35:08

Doubt it's a hacked account, I seem to recall that OP has form for this. Try advanced search for 'threads started by', can't do it meself as the DC are back now

weegiemum Mon 25-Feb-13 15:37:18

I keep trying to write another reply that won't be perceived as angry or smug-leftie.

We're happy with our leftish political choice!

Think I'll vanish.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 15:38:19

larry, a short reflection of the demographics of this country should make it clear that there simply aren't enough of these private-school-using, sheltered-enclave-living voters to support a political party large enough to make it to government on a regular basis

the majority of Labour voters must look rather different

as indeed they do

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Mon 25-Feb-13 15:41:56

I thought this post was going to be about left handed people - thought, that's a bit harsh.

BIWI Mon 25-Feb-13 15:43:52

Haven't finished reading this lovely thread yet, but just wanted to say Rhiannon86 - I started my own business 15 years ago. I'm a card-carrying member of the Labour party.

larrygrylls Mon 25-Feb-13 15:44:02

Cory,

A hell of a lot of them are clients of the left, those dependent on a large state. New Labour was not stupid, it created plenty of them. We have those on welfare, loads of government consultants, the BBC, the entire cadre of NHS managers etc etc.

Labour are, IMO unfortunately, the natural party of government now. It is hard to dismantle a culture of dependency.

Most people vote selfishly for whatever will benefit their own families (and fair enough, really). In addition, the boundaries are currently very much in favour of the left rather than reflecting the genuine population distribution. One of the most dishonest things that the LibDems did was to trade support for their AV referendum for supporting the Tories in their boundary changes and then renege on their part of the deal.

EldritchCleavage Mon 25-Feb-13 15:47:40

All NHS managers are clients of the Labour Party? Interesting.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 15:48:36

Oh right I see there have been similar.

I just wondered if it might be a disgruntled partner trying to stir the pot. It just seems very at odds with the thoughtful persona you see elsewhere on the boards.

Its it's genuine, well I can't imagine anyone in a good place posting that iyswim.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 15:49:28

So where did the Labour supporters come from before 1997 then, larry?

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 15:50:00

"if it's"

larrygrylls Mon 25-Feb-13 15:56:00

Cory,

Pre 1997 it was a very different debate. Labour always had a heartland of the "working classes" and then we had a very tired Conservative party which had lost its way and started preaching morality ("back to basics") and being caught with its pants down.

There have always been and will always be natural support for a left wing party and also those in favour of smaller government and who believe that people are best at spending their own money.

I found New Labour, though, reached the summit of hypocrisy when Dianne Abbot sent her son to City of London School and freely admitted that she was a hypocrite, yet continued in her position without feeling the need to resign.

Psammead Mon 25-Feb-13 15:56:12

This article says more about the author than the subject matter. How sad to live in such a cynical world.

SigmundFraude Mon 25-Feb-13 15:58:20

YANBU(ish). There is probably a good discussion to be had here, but seriously, you have zero chance of that. You'd have more luck convincing Julie Bindel to be spokeswoman for the Men's Rights Movement.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 16:03:29

I'd say so too Psammead. Reading it is somewhat skin to what I imagine wading through a really deep pool of bilious vomit, swallowing some as you go would be like.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 16:04:37

Not again, bloody predictive text. I mean akin, not skin.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 16:04:52

sheer mathematics make it clear that it is quite possible to live in a working class area, send your children to state school, live surrounded by people from different cultures and still vote Labour

otherwise the Labour party would have a lot fewer voters than they do

in other words, the kind of voter you describe, larry, must be in a minority

JassyRadlett Mon 25-Feb-13 16:05:09

SigmundFraude, the trouble is that the OP hasn't tried to start a good discussion. There have been some discussions around politics/public policy that I've really enjoyed on MN that have been thoughtful, honest, and willing to allow for the fact that intelligent people might have different views and values. Sadly fewer and more far between than I'd like, and usually on niche areas, because the mainstream ones usually get hijacked by the la-la-lah-I-can't-hear-you-I'm-right-you're-evil posters who won't allow that there can be other valid opinions outside their own.

I agree that there are valid and interesting discussions to be had about how the main demographics of political supporters right across the spectrum can be segmented, but the OP sure as hell wasn't trying to start one. I find the suggestion that she was quite surprising.

Me? I like evidence, really, but I'll allow that my evidence-seeking comes with personal bias.

Abitwobblynow Mon 25-Feb-13 16:05:32

Nice and typical leftie ad hominem attack here: notice, because I don't agree, I have become evil? 'Nasty, spiteful/after ALL we've done for her'. Don't bother getting personal Ada, it doesn't work.

"I think leaving the politics aside for one moment, this is a really nasty, spiteful post from someone who is a prolific poster and has had a lot of support on the boards from the kind of people she is so quick to denigrate."

oldqueencrepey Mon 25-Feb-13 16:06:04

Yuk. Only read your op but really? You think massive generalisations and the long quote you've generously shared with us amounts to any sort of incisive or persuasive argument?
Do you really think gleefully announcing your wish to "puncture left wing twats right between the eyes" is amusing?
Not sure whether to feel sorry for you or not. Would like to suggest you might enjoy daily fail site or perhaps UKIP more convivial to your way of thinking... or do you think MN is populated by right wing bigots??
<looks over shoulder in alarm>

MoreBeta Mon 25-Feb-13 16:06:21

larry - she is not the only one to send DCs private.

Its not people who have left wing views that bother me. Its the fluidity of the left wing beliefs among certain people when it comes to personal matters that annoys me.

Abitwobblynow Mon 25-Feb-13 16:06:32

That's fine, Larry. A bit of fun, stirring the pot, we don't want to get them too settled in their congratulatory self-regard!!!

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 16:07:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

usualsuspect Mon 25-Feb-13 16:12:11

OP, tl;dr

AmberLeaf Mon 25-Feb-13 16:13:49

No you are being called 'nasty/spiteful' because you are being nasty and spiteful.

Yes OP has form and this thread is of no surprise to me.

SigmundFraude Mon 25-Feb-13 16:13:53

'but the OP sure as hell wasn't trying to start one. I find the suggestion that she was quite surprising.'

Some of the best discussions emerge from the harshest of observations, Jassey.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 16:13:55

Surely there is fluidity of views among people who vote Tory too, MoreBeta?

People have their views modified by things that happen to them in life, not everybody is naturally wholly left or wholly right. They will inveigh against benefits and then complain when their disabled parent doesn't qualify. They will vociferate against the divisive school system and then send their own children private. They will tell you that it is immigrants who are sending the country to the dogs and then add in the next breath: "but of course I don't mean you".

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 16:15:06

I don't really know what to say to that breathtakingly unpleasant post.

Obviously I was being too charitable in previous my assessment!

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 16:21:18

That's very true cory

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 16:22:06

Why does a person need to loathe/hate people with fairly mainstream political viewpoints though? It doesn't make any sense.

CelticPixie Mon 25-Feb-13 16:22:58

Well I'm a leftie. Guess I must be a twat then....grin

tbh I do not consider most current labour politicians to be 'lefties' they 'sold out' in 97 and have been scrabbling around in the centre ever since.

To a younger person say,18-30 ish does leftie mean anything? I have watched the political landscape change in the last 25 years and now wonder if political parties as they currently function have a future? I bet there will be a move towards smaller more issue based parties and a move away from the adversarial system as it stands.

sorry to drift away from the serious charges levelled at the left as detailed in the op, just got me thinking...

JassyRadlett Mon 25-Feb-13 16:23:33

Sigmund - if they're harsh but fair/evidence based, sure. That was neither. It was some reductive, over-the-top to the point of caricature and stonkingly badly written. Leading many here to think 'well, why the fuck would I engage with something that unpleasant and ridiculous? Not worth it, write it off instead'. Which doesn't exactly lead to reasoned political debate.

The OP's followup post would suggest that she isn't interesting in engaging, rather she's happy to write off one side of the political spectrum without wanting to discuss why they think or value waht they do.

For the record, I've got some screamingly left-wing and militantly right-wing friends and relatives. What makes them friends (and relatives I still speak to) is that they may say harsh things, but they're ready to back them up with facts and importantly they're willing to discuss it. Huge difference. It'd be hard to convince me that a discussion (rather than backpatting from like-minded posters and shit-stirring among those politically opposed to her) was what the OP was after, or what most followup posts have tried to achieve, especially those of the 'Oh, good points, but you won't get discussion about them here, we're not allowed to talk right-wing'. Try doing it civilly - and that goes for both sides of the political spectrum.

tl;dr version? If you want a discussion, discuss calmly. If you want a rant/reaction? Post like the OP did.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 16:24:27

Thanks Lunatic

excellent point jassey (top notch name too) frothy ott opening post = frothy response - stands to reason really.

SigmundFraude Mon 25-Feb-13 16:38:32

'The OP's followup post would suggest that she isn't interesting in engaging'

Neither would I be after pages of vitriol (deserved or not), but anyway, there it is.

What does tl;dr mean?

LineRunner Mon 25-Feb-13 16:42:26

The OP's original post and 2nd post come across a bit dim and derivative to me.

slug Mon 25-Feb-13 16:45:09

Best laugh I've had in ages this thread

I suggest Rhianna gets herself down to her local craft market, or farmers market or organic food market or any one of those bastions of small businesses and have a chat with the stall holders. I think you will find a large percentage of them are both educated and have <<gasp>> leftish views.

Or do only large businesses count in the right-thinking-business-minded equation?

flangledoodle Mon 25-Feb-13 16:46:14

We love you though xxxx.

ouryve Mon 25-Feb-13 16:57:36

For the record, my twat's in the middle.

NicholasTeakozy Mon 25-Feb-13 17:03:50

Rhiannon86 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:20:04

Well I don't know any lefties that have started their own business

I do. I work for a chap who started his own business. He is more left wing than I am, and that's saying something.

Funny thread Wobbly, poorly written OP aside.

BIWI Mon 25-Feb-13 17:41:23

Do you know, the saddest thing about the OP is that she is prepared to state, openly, that she loathes someone, just because of their political beliefs.

How narrow-minded is that?

MoreBeta Mon 25-Feb-13 17:47:30

cory - "Surely there is fluidity of views among people who vote Tory too"

Some big buisnes people do have hypocritical sort of fluid right views too. They want low taxes and small Govt but funnily enough quite like big Govt contracts and all sorts of Govt subsidy and interventions when it suits them.

It even happens in the City. Socialism for bankers is what we have had since the beginning of the financial crisis.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 17:48:07

It really is sad isn't it BIWI.

I've got plenty friends who hold different political beliefs to me, I don't loathe them - we just disagree.

BIWI Mon 25-Feb-13 18:04:08

I may loathe some of their views, but I don't loathe them.

amillionyears Mon 25-Feb-13 18:10:16

Abit, do you really loathe millions of people?

amillionyears Mon 25-Feb-13 18:12:50

What if your children become lefties shock
Or your DC want to marry a leftie shock

LynetteScavo Mon 25-Feb-13 18:22:12

OP, loath who you like, but YABU.

What a bizarre OP.

Yes it is unreasonable to agree that lefties are morally incompetent. In fact, it would be down right ridiculous to come to such a conclusion at all.

OH, and to Rhiannon86 who said Mon 25-Feb-13 13:20:04
"Well I don't know any lefties that have started their own business"

Sir Alan Sugar has donated money to the Labour campaign, but then maybe he's the only "leftie" ever to suet up his own business. hmm (Oh, no, there is also my DH)

But maybe you actually meant you don't know any lefties who've set up their own business, rather than know of any lefties....

And personally I don't think Dianne Abbott sending her child to a private school was the worst sort of hypocritical. She was just doing her perceived best for her child - I can relate to that as I think most parents could. In fact I seem to remember I've chatted with her briefly about it on a MN web-chat.

Seriously hypocritical would be more being the Minister for Overseas Aid (and therefore knowing all the issues involved) and then retiring and joining the board of Nestle. Something along those lines ....

Fillyjonk75 Mon 25-Feb-13 18:33:28

For me Labour are not very left wing anyway, especially new Labour. Left of centre maybe on social issues, but pretty Thatcherite in some respects.

None of the parties are left wing in the UK, I did think the LibDems were going by their last manifesto but it turned out er, not.

When I did a test on political views, I was slightly more left wing and more liberal than Gandhi, so I must be a Massive Twat, but am also a Massive Hypocrite about some things, as everyone is really.

MiniTheMinx Mon 25-Feb-13 18:40:29

These are left wing www.socialistparty.org.uk/ socially and economically. smile

The reason New labour can be castigated for overspending is because they have tried to combine low taxes with a large welfare state. They are socially left and economically right. Not a good combo

JassyRadlett Mon 25-Feb-13 19:00:31

SF: I'd argue she rather set the time for the thread in the first place! Some pretty frothing responses but I'm not sure what else she was trying to elicit?

Tl;dr = too long; didn't (or don't) read: I'm aware I tend to get a bit wordy.

Sunnywithshowers Mon 25-Feb-13 19:04:06

YABU for cutting and pasting a rant about lefty stereotypes and putting it here.

How sad to loathe so many people.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 19:09:50

Cut and pasted from where tho?! I googled a few phrases from it and it only showed this thread!

willesden Mon 25-Feb-13 19:11:25

My MIL is a leftie. She writes upside down. Never understood it.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 19:14:25

My guess, given the charming racist undertones, would be from the EDL or BNP. But then I'd have thought it would come up on google?

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 19:16:46

I'm still puzzled by the whole lefties hating farmers thing, not a stereotype I've come across before, either here or in the US. What country is it from? Maybe South Africa with ANC reference?

scottishmummy Mon 25-Feb-13 19:17:44

Zealots of any political persuasion are dull

Sunnywithshowers Mon 25-Feb-13 19:18:29

Oh, unless the OP wrote it. I assumed it was a cut and paste rant, but I didn't google first. confused

CarlingBlackMabel Mon 25-Feb-13 19:18:33

I base my political beliefs on the processes I believe to be fair and an effective way to run a country and a society, not on what 'client groups' I like or don't like.

I don't sympathise with 'the criminal, in general' or in particular,

The whole premise of the article is spurious and ridiculous.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 19:19:36

Except it obviously has Brit references. Is it by someone who also has cultural refernces outside the UK?

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 19:21:21

I thought it was cut and paste until my brain stayed latched onto farmers. Or have I been excluded from left wing farmer hating circles?!

garlicbreeze Mon 25-Feb-13 19:22:17

I do hope somebody's already pointed out that your OP describes the intersectionality of oppression, Wobbly.

We 'lefties' aim to minimise oppression and to equalise injustices. That's all.

catgirl1976 Mon 25-Feb-13 19:22:43

Omg

You totally know all my thoughts..it's so spooky......are you magic?

I totally think exactly like that because I'm left leaning

Amazing

you should get your own tv show

garlicbreeze Mon 25-Feb-13 19:23:29

... whereas 'righties' see oppression as inevitable, aiming only to minimise it for themselves.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 19:24:17

It's so bizarre & illogical that I love it, it's why I'm still here!

MiniTheMinx Mon 25-Feb-13 19:24:35

Yep garlic we all want to be equally discriminated against and disadvantaged wink

MiniTheMinx Mon 25-Feb-13 19:25:31

I'm still here because it's flippin hilarious.

garlicbreeze Mon 25-Feb-13 19:25:55

That would do, Minx grin

ThePathanKhansAmnesiac Mon 25-Feb-13 19:35:43

Yabu, but I think you know that.

Rhiannon, do you need a lie down dear? <patronising lefty twat head tilt>.

YouTheCat Mon 25-Feb-13 19:35:49

I'm ambidextrous grin

LineRunner Mon 25-Feb-13 19:38:53

Catgirl, I actually do know you better than you know yourself.

1. You love Vodka.
2. You can do sums.
3. You secretly love Kate Bush during her mad phase.

Sunnywithshowers Mon 25-Feb-13 19:49:41

No LineRunner that's not Catgirl, that's me. smile

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 25-Feb-13 19:57:46

Was this written in the early 80s, because I didn't think that we had any miners left? Why won't OP provide a source? Is she too ashamed?confused

My DBiL is a wealthy farmer. He loves immigrants and the EU for obvious capitalist farmer reasons, but he is a leftie. Can such a paradox exist or will it cause the formation of a Black Hole? Should I be worried?shock

LineRunner Mon 25-Feb-13 20:08:59

Maybe we are all, Out on the winding, windy moors, we'd roll and fall in green... with a lime twist.

LeftWingTwat Mon 25-Feb-13 20:10:04

Go on, OP, you wrote it didn't you?

Sunnywithshowers Mon 25-Feb-13 20:20:41

My dad worked for the NHS for over 30 years, and he's a Tory voter. I'm confused. Does that mean he's a leftie or a rightie?

EnjoyResponsibly Mon 25-Feb-13 20:24:47

I thought half term was over. Did you have an inset day OP?

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Mon 25-Feb-13 20:28:11

I think the OP is pissed off with the "all Tories are cunts/racist/stupid" (delete as appropriate) line which prevails in these parts. And she has my full sympathy, but she needs to realise that you do not beat the dickheads by joining them.
I also have to take issue with her contention that lefties regard people with disabilities as one of their client groups. IME, as the parent of a disabled child, indifference and/or bigotry towards people with disabilities is distributed across the political spectrum with a depressingly even hand. you may occasionally find specimens like Fiona Millar canting about kids with SN when they're trying to undermine free schools, but you do not have to be very perceptive to see through that.

Mimishimi Mon 25-Feb-13 20:38:27

I do agree that certain people do tend to overlook some very unsavoury views and behaviour in other communities because they've somehow designated them all as victims. Which is as damaging as viewing them all as villains. A lot of people on the left though are of that political persuasion because their own families have been picked on for being members of certain demonized communities in the past ( in my case, pikeys). That said, I'm not a 'hard-core' leftie either though - IME people on both extremes of the political spectrum, extreme Left and Right, tend to be deeply unpleasant people.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 20:39:55

I've just read back and see that left wing types don't like men.

How does that work then? Was Tony Blair a figment of somebodies imagination? (yes I know he's not really left wing, but he purportedly was, as labour pm)

MiniTheMinx Mon 25-Feb-13 20:43:16

left wing types don't like men

Puzzling when so many "righties" like to point out how the unions are dominated by the disliked gender, weird that.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 20:56:54

Something tells me that the author of this piece is not overly troubled by such pesky things as "facts".

Domjolly Mon 25-Feb-13 21:03:09

BlissfullyIgnorant

"Apart from that, whenever Government (of any persuasion) do something the people in general dislike, lefties call rallies which often turn into riots, while the right roll their eyes and tut."

It did piss me off when the very to the le bbc started calling the summer riots PROTESTS only on the bbc ay

morethanpotatoprints Mon 25-Feb-13 21:04:37

Flippinada

"facts or brains*

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 25-Feb-13 21:09:19

I think I've guessed the author of this piece.

Was it Jim Davidson?
Was it OP? Did I get it right?

BangOn Mon 25-Feb-13 21:10:58

what utter drivel.

"punctures lefties right between the eyes" what strange, needless & violent imagery this phrase invokes.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 21:14:39

grin morethan

It does sound like Jim Davidson. I think you've got it Dione.

cory Mon 25-Feb-13 21:15:45

I see the miners' strike is still going on- presumably that means I have gone back in time and am now 20 years younger? And thinner- I do get to be thinner, don't I?

TDD32 Mon 25-Feb-13 21:38:50

Unless this is some sort of satire, I would like to see the source for that tit bit of ridiculously bigotted writing. Sounds like the writer was busy slating the lefties instead of working towards his / her own political view. Oh maybe someone ad too much time on their hands. I am not a leftie (Crazy Balls and Ed the Red) look/act like Laural and Hardy to me but I also don't read the Daily Mail......

Smudging Mon 25-Feb-13 21:45:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flippinada Mon 25-Feb-13 21:49:50

If I say one of my best friends is a Tory, does that sounds a wee bit too much like "I'm not a racist but..."?

It is actually true....!

TheOriginalLadyFT Mon 25-Feb-13 21:51:08

Not sure I'd agree with how you phrased it, but I too get pretty tired of the whole "everything bad is the fault of the Tories". It's a childish, simplistic view of things and conveniently ignores the fact that the last Labour administration helped pitch us headlong into this financial crisis, not to mention dragging us into an illegal war

DioneTheDiabolist Mon 25-Feb-13 22:12:28

Cory of course you are thin. You've probably got a shocking hairstyle, but you are thin.

Flippinada, just call me Dione Poirot.grin

OriginalLady, are you sure it was only 1 illegal war? Felt like a lot more.

ouryve Mon 25-Feb-13 22:20:42

It's getting on for 30 years cory

Yes, we're old.

Sunnywithshowers Mon 25-Feb-13 22:29:38

If we went back to the miner's strike, I wouldn't just be thin, I'd be pre-pubescent and be wearing sweaters knitted by my mother. Count me out.

Primafacie Mon 25-Feb-13 22:34:14

Sorry OP, I wish I could answer you but I can't find my moral compass.

Loved Charlie's joke on the first page though grin

Rowlers Mon 25-Feb-13 22:41:27

Can we have a "moon" emoticon please? It seems perfectly appropriate.

ComposHat Mon 25-Feb-13 23:40:06

My dad worked for the NHS for over 30 years, and he's a Tory voter. I'm confused. Does that mean he's a leftie or a rightie?

My dad is a Tory voter and a Union Shop steward. Imagine my level of confusion.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 26-Feb-13 10:53:23

smile

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 26-Feb-13 10:54:45

I thought goading threads were banned? confused

flippinada Tue 26-Feb-13 11:24:29

I thought so too Fanjo.

amillionyears Tue 26-Feb-13 12:06:41

I noticed months ago, that if a poster has a swipe at vast groups of people, then that thread seems to be left to stand, as it is not classed as a pa.

There is a poster that does this almost daily, takes swipes at certain groups of people in society, but not about poilitics particularly[dont mean this particular poster]

NeopreneMermaid Tue 26-Feb-13 14:46:48

OP, have my first ever biscuit.

Charlie, have my first ever thanks.

yaimee Tue 26-Feb-13 14:50:53

Not as much as we hate you OP

Hmm, wonder whether yaimee's post will stand.

Apparently it's OK to hate people as long as you hate enough of them that it's not personal grin

yaimee Tue 26-Feb-13 15:10:23

grin it will be my first ever deletion if it goes!

JesusInTheCabbageVan Tue 26-Feb-13 15:11:46

Well, there are what I'd call 'non-thinkers' on both ends of the political spectrum. People who only have opinions that have been fed to them by friends or the media, without ever questioning them. A 'non-thinking' leftie probably would see the world that way. A non-thinking right-winger would see lefties that way.

So you liked that article, did you, OP? Figures.

skratta Tue 26-Feb-13 15:14:48

Tea time? Have a biscuit

BitBewildered Tue 26-Feb-13 15:20:28

The OP sounds like the sort of bollocks my brother comes out with.

I don't see or speak to him because I think he's an arsehole.

HTH

flippinada Tue 26-Feb-13 15:52:56

In many ways, the paranoid, aggressive mindset shown in the op is a actually a punishment in itself. Imagine waking up every day feeling like that. It must be awful.

EldritchCleavage Tue 26-Feb-13 16:00:23

Very well put, JesusInTheCabbageVan

JesusInTheCabbageVan Tue 26-Feb-13 16:54:52

smile

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 26-Feb-13 20:57:10

"In many ways, the paranoid, aggressive mindset shown in the op is a actually a punishment in itself. Imagine waking up every day feeling like that. It must be awful. "
I would agree. I recollect a thread on here some months ago with the tital "all Tories are cunts" (I'm not exaggerating. It was literally that banal.) The person who started it did not strike me as a particualrly well-balanced or contented person. I don't, however, recall lots of people piling in to disagree with her. Paranoia and aggression are alright when directed at people we disagree with, it seems.

flippinada Tue 26-Feb-13 21:06:46

I don't think it's ok directed at anyone Karlos.

Threads like that say more about the poster that makes them than anything else.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 26-Feb-13 21:12:00

you don't, but plenty do, flippinada. As long as it's dreicted at Tories. or people who went to public school. They're filth too.

flippinada Tue 26-Feb-13 21:18:54

Yes, I can understand why you would feel pissed off about that.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 26-Feb-13 21:32:13

well, given I've voted for all 3 major parties in the past, I've no skin in this particualr game; I just find it quite funny how the knee-jerk pro-left types can't see that they are just as blinkered and unthinking as the blue-rinse DM reading matrons. Which is exactly what they would have been, had they been born 25 years earlier.

Joiningthegang Tue 26-Feb-13 21:37:49

Yabu - incoherent unsubstantiated rantings

Fgs have you nothing better to do

flippinada Tue 26-Feb-13 21:38:31

Yes, I think you make a good point there.

I suspect some people just like a good shit - stir!

MammaMedusa Tue 26-Feb-13 21:41:34

I find much of the article really bizarre: "If an NHS worker leaves the elderly to starve to death in their own excrement, the left couldn't care less", for example, I mean surely that would only be true of a psychopath not a left wing thinker?

I manage to hold the opinion that certain policies are wrong at the same time as recognising that many believe them to be right and without having to picture those that do as inhuman demons.

What a shame the OP cannot.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 21:45:54

'as blinkered and unthinking as the blue-rinse DM reading matrons'

Joiningthegang said
'Yabu - incoherent unsubstantiated rantings'

Joiningthegang, can I join your gang, because I agree with you entirely about the DM.

seeker Tue 26-Feb-13 22:04:47

"Which is exactly what they would have been, had they been born 25 years earlier."

I was born 25 years earlier, and I'm not.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 22:14:10

'they are just as blinkered and unthinking as the blue-rinse DM reading matrons. Which is exactly what they would have been, had they been born 25 years earlier.'

seeker, you are right. Not everyone has the foresight and understanding of complexities to be a DM reader.

I have noticed on MN, that there is some abuse towards left wingers, more abuse towards Tories, but almost unlimited abuse towards the Daily Mail reader and nobody seems to object. So what if some have blue rinses, blue is after all the Tory colour.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Tue 26-Feb-13 22:25:43

""Which is exactly what they would have been, had they been born 25 years earlier."

I was born 25 years earlier, and I'm not. "
I find this post mystifying. What on earth gave you the idea that it was all about you? Persecution complex?

seeker Tue 26-Feb-13 22:28:36

The problem with the daily mail is that people read it, regardless of political allegiance, thinking that it is a serious newspaper, and feel that they can look down on Sun readers. However, anyone with a functioning brain- once again, regardless of political allegiance- realises that it it utter tripe.

MiniTheMinx Tue 26-Feb-13 23:04:32

The media is corporate and the Daily mail is perhaps full of the greatest load of bollocks known to man.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2284473/The-great-lie-times-The-Left-wail-ruthless-cuts-But-reason-Britains-credit-rating-downgraded-government-spending-fallen-penny.html#comments

Here's a choice piece of misinformation for you

"A recent analysis by the fiercely independent Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) explains why. To be fair, the Government has tried to cut public spending. Indeed, every new economic initiative that the Treasury has come up with _since problems in the public finances first became apparent in March 2008_ (including numerous rises in taxation) was devised to reduce state borrowing" REALLY hmm

Perhaps compare it to this www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html which is based on the actual facts.

"Secondly, in 1997 Labour inherited a deficit of 3.9% of GDP (not a balanced budget ) and by 2008 it had fallen to 2.1% - a reduction of a near 50% - Impressive! Hence, it's implausible and ludicrous to claim there was overspending. _The deficit was then exacerbated by the global banking crises after 2008_

The daily mail is full of right wing propaganda.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 23:23:45

'the Daily mail is perhaps full of the greatest load of bollocks known to man'

But it doesn't on the whole carry articles supporting climate catastrophe and '50 days to save the planet'

FillyPutty Wed 27-Feb-13 00:39:47

That's absurd left-wing propaganda MiniTheMinx, why on earth would you cut off in 2008 if not for leftie propaganda reasons (i.e. this data makes Labour look best).

Labour were in power until 2010. If you are going to cherry pick 1997-2008, when the global economy was in good shape and use it to prove that the Labour party managed the economy well, why not point out that in fact the budget deficit was over 10% by the time they left power!

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 09:01:39

Actually the global economy wasn't in such good shape by 2008. We were already in the grip of a liquidity crisis by 2007.

larrygrylls Wed 27-Feb-13 09:29:48

The truth that lefties hate is that New Labour adored bankers and bank bonuses. They encouraged "light touch" regulation (I.E no regulation). They then used the tax receipts on these bonuses, which were based on falsely inflated asset prices, to do their social engineering. However, they failed to regulate the public sector, so the huge money pumped into it mainly went into public sector inflation, caused by huge salary rises for those in the public sectors and a corresponding increase in the layers of management within the public sector. Public sector productivity collapsed under labour.

Now the bills need to be paid, the left are trying out a new narrative about how evil bankers (Tory, of course) brought down the world economy and endangered their amazing transformation of the public sector.

Just won't fly.

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 10:06:21

Can't speak for others, I'm left of labour let alone "new" labour.

New labour attempted to create a socially dependent populace & a big state with neo-liberal economic practice. Labour was pursuing Thatcherite economic policy whilst seeming to be on the side of working people. Clever really, it worked for a while.

Tony Benn once said that if all political decisions were taken democratically with the full backing of the entire population then you would see marxism wink

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 10:07:52

One of the most irritating things about Lefties (that they have in common with the LibDems) is that they have an oppositional mindset even when i government. For instance they take no responsibility for that nice Mr Blair, the Iraq war, Peter Mandelson and his relaxed about getting stinking rich and a raft of other such 'trivia'. When pressed apparently these weren't real Lefties. WTF, Blair was the elected leader of your party! The Left, always rewriting the past to suit.

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 10:08:46

Tony Benn was wrong, you would see democracy.

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 10:11:11

Marxism is about doing away with the state, the ultimate goal is to do away with all national borders and all state control........ie creating communism and democracy.

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 10:12:33

That's anarchy, not an all together bad thing. How do these communist plan to control the commune? If 49% want something different?

SinisterBuggyMonth Wed 27-Feb-13 10:15:16

Yawn
biscuit

Latara Wed 27-Feb-13 10:17:51

I think i'm probably left wing so YABU.

But this debate is a bit 'over my head' so i can't really join in.

Just wanted to say that the OP is making a bad generalisation & sounds quite unpleasant.

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 11:05:18

"Only in communist society, when the resistance of the capitalists have disappeared, when there are no classes the state... ceases to exist"

"democracy begin to wither away, owing to the simple fact that, freed from capitalist slavery, from the untold horrors, savagery, absurdities, and infamies of capitalist exploitation, people will gradually become accustomed to observing the elementary rules of social intercourse. They will become accustomed to observing them without force, without coercion, without subordination, _without the special apparatus for coercion called the state_

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm

The main reason for the state is control, it must control working people through fear, misinformation, state services and welfarism, it maintains the rule of law, selling our labour as we desire???? under capitalism the capitalists are free to set out the terms, we are free to work or take welfare because we do not have ownership of the means of production and we do not share in the social power that those profits confer upon capitalists.

The state is necessary under capitalism because the state is the controlling arm of the capitalist class. Control and the hegemony of capitalist ideologies keeps the working class down.

We live under a form of corporatism where money buys policy, where wars are started to further corporate interests for oil, resources and new markets globally.......that is the work of the state.....create nationalism in its people whilst furthering capitalist accumulation.

In history we have had slaves, serfs & peasants now we have an exploited working class. If you study slavery and the formation of patriarchal society you see that slavery and the formation of the state came about because of man's desire for private property and the social power this bestowed.

No private property, no class society = no social hierarchy, no exploitation and therefore no need for state control.

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 11:10:09

It doesn't scale.

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 11:12:41

Why?

EducationalAppStore Wed 27-Feb-13 11:15:20

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

cory Wed 27-Feb-13 11:15:53

larrygrylls Wed 27-Feb-13 09:29:48
"The truth that lefties hate is that New Labour adored bankers and bank bonuses."

Of course we hate it; not the truth but the fact. Plenty of us lefties hated it so much we were shouting it from the roof tops during the New Labour years. Hated it in the sense of "we see that this is true and it is a hateful thing" rather then "we'd hate for anyone to know about it".

As others have said, New Labour were trying to run a welfare state with a Neo-Liberal agenda.

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 10:07:52
"When pressed apparently these weren't real Lefties. WTF, Blair was the elected leader of your party! The Left, always rewriting the past to suit. "

So there were no Tories who hated Thatcher? No Tories who dislike Cameron?

hmm

THERhubarb Wed 27-Feb-13 11:16:58

Oh look, new Mumsnetters! Hello!

Oh look, bigoted and narrow-minded Mumsnetters who like to make sweeping generalisations mainly for the fun of it and to wind up others in the process - what fun!

<marks down names to avoid, sends email to MNHQ about adding a 'block poster' option>

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 11:17:25

Because humans evolved to live in smallish groups. This is not possible in our world today on any large scale.

cory Wed 27-Feb-13 11:21:07

As I remember it, plenty of traditional Conservatives felt about Margaret Thatcher the same way as plenty of traditional Labour supporters felt about Blair: they hated her guts and thought she was betraying the central ideals of Conservatism.

All of them? Oh dear..... <wanders off to hide in cupboard>

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 11:33:14

As I remember it the upper class stooges in the conservatives hated Thatcher because her allegiance wasn't to maintaining their class power but further eroding it with her love affair with the free market.

Have reported corporate vampire upthread.

Does it scale, well yes it does. Before the creation of the anarchic state and patriarchal power relations (2000+ BC) we did indeed live in small groups. But things have changed. We live in a global economy, the whole of human development through the various stages of production and social organisation has been necessary as is the pain we are going through now.

cory Wed 27-Feb-13 11:42:18

I remember plenty of ordinary Tory voters who were unhappy with the Thatcher and Major years because so much of the privatisation was ill thought out and not really working. Just because you have a general political stance doesn't mean you have to admire any politician who belongs to the same party.

I am a Christian. I could rattle off a whole list of priests and church leaders whom I do not admire at all, some of whom I consider absolutely disastrous for the church.

larrygrylls Wed 27-Feb-13 12:14:43

Cory,

I think you are taking this thread a little seriously. Everything you say is absolutely correct, but discussing nuanced politics can be quite dull, and also hard to do in pithy posts rather than long essays.

I am right wing but don't buy all the agenda. I do think, fundamentally, it is about how big you want the state to be and what you think that they should be responsible for. It is also about where you want to place the safety net, rather than whether it should exist at all etc. And, finally, there is the libertarian agenda (which I strongly subscribe to) that the state should stay out of individual's affairs unless there is a desperate need to intervene.

I took this thread, though, as a chance to poke some fun at left wingers (light heartedly) which counteracts 95% of Mumsnet, where the right are continually derided as stupid and heartless. I know that there are as many different shades of left wingers as of right wingers and, realistically, you cannot stereotype either of them.

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Wed 27-Feb-13 12:51:55

Surely 'pure' libertarianism would disagree with there being a safety net at all?
Have I got the wrong end of the stick?

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Wed 27-Feb-13 12:54:28

Thinking about it, the libertarian safety net would be supplied by private charity, wouldn't it? So fairly...ephemeral.

larrygrylls Wed 27-Feb-13 12:59:43

Boulevard,

I don't think "pure" anything works well in politics. I don't think many people would like the idea of people starving while others live the life of our plutocracy, or that there would be no medical care at all if you could not afford it.

On the other hand, I think most people are amazed at some of the things that are currently thought of as reasonable for spending government (i.e our) money on, or some of the lack of controls over how it is spent.

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 13:16:45

ah, so libertarian values and free markets lead to such huge inequality that some couldn't walk on the pavement or have health care.......The freedom to starve or saw your own leg off. Free markets do not equate to free people.

larrygrylls Wed 27-Feb-13 13:26:57

Mini,

But nor do extremes of redistribution. They tend to lead to USSR style states with all powerful governments and corrupt politicians.

As I said, pure ideology rarely works in politics.

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 13:31:49

What would you rather, watch others enjoy freedom to purchase health or experience freedom from unmet health needs?

Its a Q? of freedom for Versus freedom to

I would like freedom from starvation rather than the freedom to spend my greater wealth stuffing my face.

larrygrylls Wed 27-Feb-13 13:36:30

Mini,

But it does not work that way. People need incentives to work hard.

I want everyone to have access to enough food. I want everyone to have access to adequate health care. Optional additional health care or slightly faster access I have no problem with people being able to buy. Ditto eating organic or going out to restaurants.

If people work hard and do well, they SHOULD have more IMO. However there should be a safety net for those who fall on hard times, but a safety net not a top luxury safety cushion.

MiniTheMinx Wed 27-Feb-13 13:40:43

Like dogs, you offer them a reward grin

We don't have a luxury cushion though do we?

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 27-Feb-13 13:43:34

The trouble with state-provided safety nets is that while they may be universal in their coverage, they are often not very good. As the parent of a child with a disability I have strained every sinew to avoid entrusting him to state education providers (MS and SN) and I shudder at the thought that he may one day be dependent on state care. State provision in these sectors is all too often merely a job-creation scheme for people who want an easy life. The best quality input DS has had has been privately purchased or accessed via non-state sources (MN SN board, for example, provides far better info about ASD than any health visitor I have ever met).
Where this leaves the size of the state debate I do not know. I just know I don't trust the state to look after DS. So I laugh bitterly when I hear the more fortunate laud state health and education provision and the people who provide it.

DesiderataHollow Wed 27-Feb-13 14:17:04

Is it James Delingpole?

Do I win?

DesiderataHollow Wed 27-Feb-13 14:18:18
slug Wed 27-Feb-13 15:01:13

The problem with not providing state-provided safety nets is people starve to death or die of preventable diseases.

<<just saying>>

NicholasTeakozy Wed 27-Feb-13 15:32:59

Just read that link Desiderata and had a good laugh as after only 8 posts Godwins Law was invoked. Idiots grin

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 27-Feb-13 15:52:57

People do those things with state-provided safety nets too, slug - ask the relatives of the 1200 prematurely dead in Stafford.
It's not enough to say "pay for the big state and it will provide" - sometimes the way the big state operates militates against effective provision for people in need. As those of us with kids with SN find out to our cost.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 17:47:03

Karlos, it is true that the state health system is not perfect, but that is why we need to keep up the pressure to report where it fails and to hold people to account so that it improves.

Some people are fortunate and can afford to choose whether to have state or privately provided health, but the majority have no choice. We have to improve state health care.

But there are lots of savings to be made in the Big State in other areas.

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