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to be disgusted with Nick Clegg

(145 Posts)

So now we know that our DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER knew he had a man involved at a senior level in his party who was rumoured to harass women and he failed to act but instead faciliatated a cover-up. Fabulous. What an example to the voters angry

MarilynValentine Mon 25-Feb-13 11:09:42

Agreed. And I thought his popularity had already reached a nadir.

He should resign.

sue52 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:13:25

Most people were disgusted with Clegg before we knew about this cover up. There is no place lower for him to stoop to now.

stormforce10 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:22:40

I'm not happy with him either. However what was he supposed to do if all he had to go on was rumours? Imagine your husband coming home from work and saying that he was being subject to a major investigation and might lose his job as a result of rumours. I can just see the AIBU post.

AIBU to think that my DH is being treated appallingly by his boss. A couple of women at work dont like him so they're tryng to get him sacked by saying he made sexual approaches to them. He says he didnt do it and I believe him he'd never do a thing like that just not the type yet he's been suspended pending a major investigation and might lose his job. its his word against theirs and we're just so upset. etc. etc.

I'm not trying to defend Nick Clegg who probably should have investigated more diligently just trying to see it from his side.

TheOriginalLadyFT Mon 25-Feb-13 12:03:28

Can't say I'm surprised at how this story has played out, it's the usual 'men defending men accused off abusing women' trope and it pisses me off intensely

Same old same old hmm

Stormforce- they should have had a proper inquiry at the time of the 'rumours'. Then there could have been exoneration or appropriate disciplinary measures. instead the leadership were happy for this all to remain nebulous. Nobody should be convicted by rumour - but nobody should avoid a proper process either.

EldritchCleavage Mon 25-Feb-13 12:16:18

I can see, sort of, why there was no formal investigation. But, a well-run organisation that tries to be fair and also have an environment where no one is harassed and harassment is punished, people should not have ignored rumours, certainly not persistent ones.

The women would have had someone to talk to, or been approached and asked if they were ok (I have that role in my workplace: counsellor/recipient of complaints kind of thing. If someone told me rumours I would have to follow it up, if only to let a potential complainant know the grievance procedure and be a sounding board).

The man would have been spoken to, even if on a fairly non-committal basis to remind him of anti-harassment policy etc. (I genuinely think in my workplace the top man would do this. He is very good at 'iron fist in velvet glove' coded chats and a groper would get the message there was no cover-up going to be implemented by other men on his behalf. But I accept I'm probably very lucky in where I work).

It all gets the message across: we don't tolerate this kind of thing, if it is happening we will deal with it, please use official avenues rather than gossiping etc.

Instead it all seems to have been buried. Unless the women made formal complaints no one was at all interested.

stormforce10 Mon 25-Feb-13 12:24:55

Eldritch if Nick Cleggs statement is to be believed then Lord Rennard WAS spoken to to along the lines you suggest. It wasn't entirely left alone. Interesting that he resigned on health grounds so soon afterwards maybe more to that than initally met the eye

EldritchCleavage Mon 25-Feb-13 12:29:52

Ah, ok. Well then I have some sympathy for NC (not often I say that).

Scholes34 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:15:25

Hmm, nice timing with the Eastleigh by-election coming up. Who has sat on this story for so long and who is now using it to their political advantage advantage?

HorribleMother Mon 25-Feb-13 14:34:30

I don't like the idea of Presumed Guilty until Proven Innocent. The devil will be in the detail of what was said by who when to whom.

edam Mon 25-Feb-13 21:36:58

Now the police are looking into it... Clegg has already shifted ground from first of all his office denying he knew anything about it at all until a few days ago to admitting he knew of vague rumours to admitting he knew something rather more but not 'specifics'.

Clearly there was something known about this, but everyone chose to ignore it in the hope it would go away (or that the women would shut the fuck up). Claims that he was persuaded to resign don't make it any better. That's what schools used to do in the dim and dark days, persuade the person accused to resign quietly - and often go on to do the same again at another school. Look at the tragic Frances Andrade case - it looks horribly like there were other victims and other abusers, as well.

Sadly I've seen similar at a former employer of mine - a national organisation that has a high reputation for ethics. Women who make complaints are fobbed off, not believed, treated badly, managed out, and the worst that happens to the person whose behaviour is in question is that they are allowed to resign but get a fat freelance contract. Or, in this case, are brought back into the fold after a period of quiet.

The Telegraph is reporting today that they sent specific allegations by e-mail and that 'Lord Greaves, a Lib Dem peer, suggested that “people just calm down a bit” adding that “fairly mild sexual advances” were “hardly an offence”.' I wonder if he would feel the same if it were his wife or daughter? Or if he himself received 'fairly mild sexual advances' from a person in a position of authority and power?


EldritchCleavage Tue 26-Feb-13 11:20:16

Northern, that Greaves statement's outrageous! 'Fairly mild sexual advances' to me would mean asking someone out or verbally expressing sexual interest in them, not putting your hands on them without their consent. Bloody hell! The more senior Lib Dems comment on this, the more we see how big a problem their party's got.

kimorama Tue 26-Feb-13 11:36:13

The trick in politics is not to get caught. Clegg is accident prone; but cameron will be loving his problems. But \Lib dems could still win current by-elction (thurs)

ppeatfruit Tue 26-Feb-13 14:50:54

I heard an interview with a young man yesterday on R4 who said that in the Tory Party all young people were sexually propositioned as a matter of course and the ones who 'complied' were the ones who became successful shock. THIS IS NOT A PARTY POLITICAL PROBLEM. It happens everywhere.

zamantha Tue 26-Feb-13 15:55:27

Abuse scandals are of the moment - also agree, politically timed this one. Horrid women feel distressed/annoyed - horrid if chap is guilty or innocent.

Also know of teenager calling teacher a pervert recently - complete fabrication - we are role-modelling something rather horrid. Surely, tactful, discreet appropriate complaints and intervention are what are needed to allow people to feel they can talk freely.

I agree this kind of thing happens in every arena but it shouldn't. It isn't going to stop either if it's accepted as 'normal' or 'reasonable' and it isn't about sex or affection or admiration at all. It's about power and therefore the abuse of power.

False allegations are terrible of course - but that's all the more reason to have a pro-active policy of addressing any suggestion of an issue. We shouldn't be reading anywhere that any man thought it was ok to stroke a woman's bottom when he was not in a relationship with her, nor to lock two women in his home. We should be ensuring that boundaries are respected and that any breach of that is talked about and investigated and appropriate behaviour change made BEFORE somebody is seriously hurt.

slug Tue 26-Feb-13 16:19:37

It always surprises me how seemingly intelligent people cannot draw inferences from disparate bits of data.

In the week where a senior political official was accused to have sexually harassed women including potential female candidates, and this report was published. Where we learnt that the police pressured a rape victim to retract her claim against a man who subsequently murdered his children. In the months after the Saville case when we discovered that the mass of witnesses was dismissed as being the word of just the women. Where a murder victim is pictured in her bikini on the front page of a national paper.

Do they not join the dots? Can they not see that there is a pattern here? Yet they always seem so surprised.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 16:29:43

Chris Rennard in his denials that he did anything wrong seems to be accusing a number of intelligent, credible women of lying. Interesting tactic. Clegg must be stewing over that one.

An awful lot of very senior Lib Dems seem to have known something - and it looks like they didn't really care that much, because they are denying they got rid of Rennard over it. Again, an interesting tactic, that they might regret.

Rennard has been so powerful in the Lib Dem Party it nominated him for a peerage in his late 30s, and Rennard probably has loads of dirt on many MPs and other senior Lib Dems.

It says a lot about political largesse - and it happens in Labour and the Tories, too.

dotnet Tue 26-Feb-13 16:30:34

I don't think YABU to be disgusted with Nick Clegg. This is the man who shafted our students, is now saying he would 'consider' putting his child through the same elitist schooling he had himself and now it seems he didn't act nearly firmly enough about concerns raised by women MPs about Lord Rennard.
Yellow outside but blue inside.

amothersplaceisinthewrong Tue 26-Feb-13 16:33:48

Nick Clegg is utterly untrustworthy. I don't trust a word that comes out of his mouth. He needs to go.

AnAirOfHope Tue 26-Feb-13 16:43:47

Sheffield voted him in and it will not happen again. He fucked students over and its mostly labour in south yorks anyway.

Everyone is talking about how they will be voting him out at the next election.

edam Tue 26-Feb-13 16:50:59

Slug, that story about the rape victim(s) being bullied by the police into withdrawing allegations is horrifying. And not the first outrageous story about Sapphire - at least two detectives were being sacked/prosecuted last time I saw Sapphire coming up in the news.

And yet on the thread about yet another stupid proposal bring in anonymity for men accused of rape, some numpty had turned up to have a go at the We Believe You campaign and there was a poster saying 'oh, but there's all these specialist rape services these days, women don't need anonymity...'

ppeatfruit Tue 26-Feb-13 16:54:21

Erm it's NOT a party political issue, did anyone read my post? Sexual harrassment of women AND men happens everywhere.

zamantha Tue 26-Feb-13 17:02:26

Is a roasting in the press appropriate for all?

Not a catholic, - non-religious - but Cardinal O'Brien does not know what he is accused of or who is accusing him. Is the castigation of the world appropriate at this stage?

There seems to be no middle ground between harrassment and abuse - all deemed the same in media and seemingly in people reading this. Shouldn't we look at adult behaviour in a balanced, proportionate way?

Madeleine10 Tue 26-Feb-13 17:27:47

Yes we should, Zamantha.

Let me just say, I can't be doing with the Lib Dems, and Rennard appears to have been an unpleasant chap in many areas, not just sexual, for years.


I have seen very few specific allegations, other than a suggestion he put his hand on one woman's knee, and the words of a lady who was interviewed on the radio today, saying he suggested she might like to come to his room , after an evening discussions in a bar. She did what any sensible woman would do in that situation , and said a firm No and went to her room. He didn't pursue her, or attempt to drag her into his rom regardless, or use his power to sack her/blacklist her/force her just made her feel a bit awkward.

This is propositioning, not harassment, and certainly not abuse. Married men away from home, try this shit regularly , I'm sure. Since when has it been the business of anyone other than his wife? If I had a quid for every man that has suggested a drink in his room after work, I would have quite a few quid by now, and most women I know would. It didn't upset me, I dealt with it firmly, and I most certainly didn't call the police . This is what happens normally, surely.

Yes the blokes are shits/sleazeballs, but only to their wives IMO.

Equating the allegations that I have heard so far with real abuse is ridiculous, and risks trivialising real harassment, and abuse. The frequent linking of the word "Saville" in the reporting of this nonsense is beyond insulting to those victims of Jimmy Saville's vile behaviour.

mathanxiety Tue 26-Feb-13 17:28:59

I betcha anything O'Brien knows exactly what he is accused of. And because he knows what he stands accused of he has recused himself from the upcoming conclave.

The priests and former priest who accused him of improper sexual advances were circumspect because if they made detailed accusations they would be accused of carrying out a public vendetta, crucifying him in the press, blah blah. People who make accusations of sexual harassment of any kind can't win for losing sometimes it seems.

mathanxiety Tue 26-Feb-13 17:40:05

Men who are in a position of authority in an organisation 'propositioning' younger women who are not n a position of authority in an organisation are abusing their position no matter what their intentions are. The young woman does not know how her firm No is going to be received or what impact her No will have on her career prospects as long as the propositioner retains his position of authority.

And sorry, but that is the business of any company, especially public companies whose stockholders would like to be assured that the best and brightest are running it, and not just those who have advanced their careers by way of the CEO's bed. It is just as much the business of the small company or the family company. What bright and able young woman would try her luck in a company whose MD has the reputation of being a 'propositioner'? Who would stay ling in such an environment? The bottom line is that it costs business money to tolerate sexual harassment, not just the money paid out as compensation for the harrassed who win suits against the company, but also in lost training costs when women leave as soon as is decently possible, and in lack of applications from all but the most desperate as word spreads through the grapevine of the Mr Feelies and their lack of accountability.

As long as 'propositioning' is tolerated or considered a marital sin and not a crime against corporate ethics there will be a cloud over the career of every woman who advances through an organisation, particularly good looking women.

Considering child sexual abuse as primarily a sin that damaged the sinner and not a crime that damaged the victims is what has almost destroyed the RC church. There is absolutely no way sexual harassment should be seen as mere propositioning and no way it should be seen as a matter between men and their wives, for exactly the same reason.

zamantha Tue 26-Feb-13 17:58:49

Thank goodness there are some madeleine10's in the world.

Abuse is different from harrassment or propositioning - there are scales/grades to the negative behaviour i in all of those areas.

Those in the wrong need to be dealt with proportionately.

And what should be done with those that falsely accuse which is going to become more of an issue if such hysteria and bashing goes on in the press. I never once saw a headline that an accused was vindicated. Mud is thrown and it sticks.

zamantha Tue 26-Feb-13 18:00:48

O'Brien made it clear - he was told to resign - he may have been inappropriate, maybe not.

mathanxiety Tue 26-Feb-13 18:12:44

I never once saw a headline that an accused was vindicated

Maybe that is because there is rarely smoke without fire?

The RC church does not back down unless there is good reason to and in this instance they had an unwinnable case and decided not to brazen it out, not 'just' accusations from adult laypeople who had been abused as children or teens but priests and one former priest -- if priests and a former priest are not credible witnesses then what does that say about the credibility of the RC church? The church can't claim ordained and serving priests are individuals with personal axes to grind or nefarious motivations. The church does not continuously look over its shoulder waiting for priests to come forward with complaints of sexual advances from bishops or fellow priests. When they do, they are taken very seriously.

Madeleine10 Tue 26-Feb-13 18:15:14

As long as 'propositioning' is tolerated or considered a marital sin and not a crime against corporate ethics there will be a cloud over the career of every woman who advances through an organisation, particularly good looking women.

mathanxiety - But there are already laws to deal with the issues of the boss - or anyone in a more senior position - using that position to bully or manipulate female workers. It's up to the women to use those laws, if they feel that they are appropriate by implementing them.

Being put in a slightly uncomfortable position because some sleaze ball asks you up to his room is not a happy place to be, but it is a million miles away from abuse and harrassment - unless the bloke won't take no for an answer, and takes things further.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 18:16:25

Rennard decided what was winnable seat, and who was an appropriate candidate, and where election campaign money would be spent - and he made sure that his 'people' were doing the same at Council election level.

Look at Lib Dem contolled councils, and how few women are on their Cabinets.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 18:16:40


LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 18:23:06

Madeleine10 I don't think you understand the context of political non-employment situations eg applying to be a parliamentary candidate or standing for election as a councillor.

One is in intense competition with other candidates, and if most other candidates (male) don't have the same anxieties about 'displeasing' the decision-maker, that is not a fair situation.

And if that is why there are so few women in politics, that is not good for us all.

Madeleine10 Tue 26-Feb-13 18:25:26

Linerunner - But correlation is not causation.

Unless you know for sure that the single reason that there are so few women on LD councils (and I have no idea whether there is a dearth of women or not) is because they have refused sex with Rennard or any other LD with simliar power, then you can't extrapolate like that.

Madeleine10 Tue 26-Feb-13 18:26:23


The woman who spoke to Radio 4 today told them that Rennard had made an advance which she declined. She said she was going to bed. He said he would walk upstairs with her. She made her excuses and went to the loo. When she came out he was waiting at the foot of the stairs. How is that kind of behaviour not harassment?
I think we're on really dodgy ground if we attempt to say 'that incident isn't serious enough' - what next? It's only rape if a knife is used? It's only a crime if she tried to get away?

'Being put in a slightly uncomfortable position because some sleaze ball asks you up to his room is not a happy place to be, but it is a million miles away from abuse and harrassment - unless the bloke won't take no for an answer, and takes things further. '

So what you're saying there is only assault counts. Is that honestly what you believe?

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 18:30:59

It's not about sex per se. It's about patronage and power.

ThePathanKhansAmnesiac Tue 26-Feb-13 18:34:26

The LDems should be ashamed of how this was handled.

I find it hard to understand how Nick Clegg didn,t know specific details at the time.
He speech at conference when Lord D was leaving, hypocrasy of the highest order.

I am, however, really sus that all this has come to light right now, just as a by-election is in progress, and as uk loses it,s AAA rating.
AND, yet again it ceases to be about those who may have been damaged, hurt but navel fucking gazing by the LDs as to who knew what, and when.Disgraceful.

maddy68 Tue 26-Feb-13 18:35:37

Actually he has gone up in my estimation. He didn't act on rumour. Only on facts

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 18:38:49

Actually the message that the UK maybe needs to wake up to is that to be electable, you need to flush your principles down the toilet.

And that is because of the toxic combination of male privilege, media manipulation, the resulting electoral apathy, and internal party back-stabbing over personal relationships and dynamics, itself a result out of how political parties are finded.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 18:39:31

finded? I mean funded.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 18:41:08

I don't think it is navel-gazing by the LibDems. The LibDems would have preferred this not to come out days before the by-election.

I think the fact that it has been made public now shows how important this by-election is to some people.

I think it has harmed the LibDems and shown up hypocrisy.

zamantha Tue 26-Feb-13 18:42:00

rarely smoke without fire - think you are not correct mathanxiety.

our blame culture allows people to accuse all the time.

Sleazy men and malicious women/girls are all are rare thank goodness - but they exist.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 18:43:17

Agree with LineRunner. It looks like abandonment of principle, and hypocrisy.

The public has seen so much hypocrisy in so many spheres lately, and this looks like more hypocrisy again.

Madeleine10 Tue 26-Feb-13 18:43:45

So what you're saying there is only assault counts. Is that honestly what you believe?

Not at all, Northern Lurker, I am saying that being propositioned (and dealing with it effectively) in a hotel setting by the boss, is not the same as being assaulted/stalked/raped/abused by the boss. The law accepts that, as do most people. I would not feel traumatised, desperate, terrified by the sort of incident this woman recounted. That's just obvious surely, and anyone who has ever been assaulted/raped/stalked would surely feel insulted by the idea that there is an equivalence - which is what the current reporting, reactions and rage seem to indicate.

But I know what you are getting at - the whole murky world of the Patriarchy starts with this sort of crap - manpulation and bullying. It shows what many men still think of women, and it stinks. However, I've heard nothing yet to indicate that he has committed a sexual crime.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 18:45:17

'Actually he has gone up in my estimation. He didn't act on rumour. Only on facts'

grin good joke!

mathanxiety Tue 26-Feb-13 18:45:48

Do people really accuse all the time?
How many people do you know who have made accusations of this sort against a manager, etc?

It is not blame culture, but the law, that allows people to make accusations of illegal acts. People can complain about behaviour that is illegal. Not sleazy but illegal. Sleaze is legal.

Seems you have a touch of 'blame culture' yourself if you think of victims as malicious.

'the whole murky world of the Patriarchy starts with this sort of crap - manpulation and bullying. It shows what many men still think of women, and it stinks' - yes that's exactly what I mean and I'm glad we agree on that.

skrumle Tue 26-Feb-13 19:21:51

don't know about england but in scotland the lib dems have the highest percentage of female councillors of any political party (still hellish low IMO - 27% rings a bell but i can't remember off the top of my head).

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 19:28:52

The Lib Dems have more female councillors, relative to other parties (still awfully low, as you say skrumle ). When you look at places where they in control, it still seems to be a Boys' Club in respect of those placed on the Cabinets of those councils, i.e. in the senior policy and budget positions.

The Tories are much worse, though. Labour a bit better, just.

I think my point is - to be a successful politician, what are you asked to close your eyes to?

skrumle Tue 26-Feb-13 19:33:38

fair enough - in scotland the westminster coalition pretty much wiped the libdems out in the may 12 elections, so there's not much power to be had by them!

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 19:41:24

Skrumle That's Rennard's legacy - he played the numbers game. Where do you get the most bang for your buck in terms of returning candidates to parliament and to councils?

And so the Lib Dems discovered knocking on doors and dropping letters round densely occupied English towns and cities, where people had previously been taken for granted, and where the electorate returned large numbers of MPs to Westminster relative to the campaigning efforts and costs involved.

Mind you the Lib Dems are bloody good at being constitency MPs and in local government.

Tansie Tue 26-Feb-13 20:43:03

With you, madelaine10.

My tuppence- we discredit women, and in particular the victims of- yes, real sexual assault when we start bundling an attempted grope (maybe?) a request for 'hotel-room visit' with rape, serious assault (legal def.) and serious coercion.

OK, I am 50. I have 'lived a little'. I am a professional and have on a few occasions, been asked to provide services beyond my this remit. I have strongly declined. And have gone on being able to have a professional relationship with the blokes concerned. I must add, none threw me down or forcibly drove me into a corner etc.

I feel the timing of these allegations is at best, embarrassingly transparent, and at worst, sets the real issue of real sexual abuse against women back 25 years, when we allow it to be wheeled out at election time. The scarlet woman's curse. We all dance to the puppet master's apparent, yet manufactured 'ire'! No one cares til it becomes politically expedient. Some may say 'Wheel it out all the time' but in reality we need to expose this stuff all the time assuming it is real sexual abuse, not a bloke misreading signals- whenever it occurs. And being put straight. End of.

We need to be careful.

As an Eastleigh voter, it pissed me off that Mrs Huhne (as she was) was quite happy to wear the speeding points when it suited her life's ambition; he was an arrogant twat to assume she was just 'the little woman' who'd wear it for him whilst he having an affair (WHAT AN IDIOT!)- but the circumstances suited her at the time and I really don't think it changes the Lib Dem's chances.

The public are so over sexual impropriety - yes we shouldn't be, but this old tool is wheeled out time and time again (RC cardinal about to go to Rome, anyone?)- IF ONLY the allegations were timely, properly raised then investigated, though that can't happen in a timely matter if ^it's not reported^- and didn't suddenly be predicated on 'how scared' the alleged 'victims' were to report. They're not children in a C18 work house, they were in C20 Britain. Working for a publicly accountable organisation.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 20:51:09

Tansie, good luck with the UKIP vote, they'll probably do rather well in Eastleigh.

Working for a publicly accountable organisation My point earlier was that prospective political candidates don't actually work for the Parties; so they have no employee protection. They rely, to some degree, on the kindness of strangers.

mathanxiety Tue 26-Feb-13 20:57:01

Sexual harassment is any hint that your job is conditional upon being sexually obliging or available to someone senior to you. How is it not a serious issue akin to rape?

Tansie -- As to 'a bloke misreading signals' -- please tell me you are not serious.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 21:11:17

Sexual harassment is any hint that your job is conditional upon being sexually obliging or available to someone senior to you

I agree.

And I think sexual harassment also occurs where other people are in a culture where they believe that turning a blind eye to it happening to others is in their own best interests.

Blackden Tue 26-Feb-13 21:25:49

Count me as someone who feels horribly betrayed by Nick Clegg even before this horrible business. He can't be trusted at all and I hope the good people of his Sheffield constituency do the decent thing and boot him right out of politics at the next election. Also I bet David Cameron is relishing every second of this.

LineRunner Tue 26-Feb-13 21:35:05

There are a lot of women in Conservative politics who tonight are probably wondering about telling their own tales.

After Eastleigh, though, if they want to keep their stars in the ascendant.

vesela Tue 26-Feb-13 23:08:40

All good points made by LineRunner and mathanxiety.

The latest interview between Susan and Martha Kearney really highlights the implicit connection between the propositioning and Rennard's power. The initial leg-brushing was going on as they were talking about her career.

Worth noting, too, that Alison Smith hasn't said all she could have done about exactly what went on in Chris Rennard's house - what she's said openly is what Channel 4's lawyers have deemed it safe for her to say! She has indicated in tweets that saying more could result in her being sued.

vesela Tue 26-Feb-13 23:20:40

(not that what we do know isn't bad enough)

ComposHat Wed 27-Feb-13 04:07:33

Also know of teenager calling teacher a pervert recently

A mate of mine told me that a colleague had tapped a kid on the shoulder to get his attention, to which the cheeky bugger responded 'watch it Jimmy Saville!' which I thought was pretty quick wittted.

TheFallenNinja Wed 27-Feb-13 06:05:41

Anyone who looks to politicians of any hue for moral standards is wasting their time.

Why do we insist on being surprised when they turn out to be a bunch of tools and why should the alleged actions if one individual bring so many others into the furore.

Get the police investigating this and fix the economy, that's what I want these clowns doing, not thinking of soundbites on the hop because some smart arse journalist has made a tenuous link between the parties actually involved in the matter and parties that weren't.

You cannot prove who knew what, rumours are rumours and politicians are arrogant twats.

carlajean Wed 27-Feb-13 07:08:06

I agree with Madelaine10 and Tansie - they've said it better than I could. I also think that if the women in question were intending to be MPs they really didn't seem to have enough gumption to do the job

Not wanting to trade sex for advancement means they lack gumption hmm Sorry I think that's really offensive.

I also think it will be possible to prove who knew what but I bet Clegg wishes it wasn't.

carlajean Wed 27-Feb-13 08:06:38

these women are aiming to MPs and they can't deal with this level of propositioning? what would they do if faced with heckling in the House of Commons - burst into tears?

vesela Wed 27-Feb-13 08:19:20

Bizarre definition of gumption. And anyway, they - at least the ones that we know about - did successfully fend off his advances. But they were left in some cases with the fear that they'd stuffed up their political careers, because Chris Rennard was so powerful in terms of candidate recommendation and financing. Which is why the media has used the words “casting couch” (although in Alison Smith’s case it doesn’t apply because she had already stood down). You really think that’s a good way to select MPs?

vesela Wed 27-Feb-13 08:21:21

carlajean, would you sleep your way to advancement? If not, then don't expect it of other women!

carlajean Wed 27-Feb-13 08:41:14

vesela where did I say that hmm? I think being an mp is a difficult job and if this kind of thing puts you off perhaps you're not suited to it

PeoniesPlease Wed 27-Feb-13 08:52:47

But men don't have to consider whether they are put off by it. It is a burden which lands on the shoulders of women.

That effectively ensures a further barrier to women in positions of political power.

LineRunner Wed 27-Feb-13 09:03:42

There is a level of sexual harassment of young men in politics, but the predatory behaviour doesn't come from women.

ConferencePear Wed 27-Feb-13 09:43:02

I just wish that for once someone would say, "OK I did it. I'm sorry."
I'm sick and tired of all this fudge and people saying that lessons have been learned.

olgaga Wed 27-Feb-13 09:44:13

How amusing to see the Lib Dems moaning about "dirty tricks". They've been at it for 30 years since Southwark and Bermondsey when they turned dirty tricks into an art form.

They are political shape-shifters, opportunists completely devoid of principles. In every seat they've ever contested they will pretend to be "nicer" than the Tories, more Labour than Labour, more independent than the independent. For decades they promised to deliver whatever it took to get elected - and it worked!

They are now in government, facing a future where they can no longer rely on the protest votes which served them so well in 2010 when they could still make absurd promises they could never keep, simultaneously appearing more left-wing than Labour and less nasty than the Tories.

I'm absolutely delighted that the hypocrisy and opportunism of these thugs in suits is finally being exposed, and I'd put money on them losing at least 45 seats in 2015.

vesela Wed 27-Feb-13 10:06:20

carlajean - from yesterday's interview with Susan (who was propositioned): "Of course men do try it on, but this is a man with an almighty amount of power. At the time he held the purse strings for any winnable seat...this was a man who could control your future. If he said 'I'm not too sure about this candidate' people listened to him... You become really quite worried about how it's going to affect your chances."

The whole interview is here.

Amateurish Wed 27-Feb-13 10:19:23

Let's not forget that these allegations are categorically denied by Lord Rennard (the old fox).

The Mail story on this seems pretty high on hysteria, and low on actual detail. One of the main complaints appears to be that he invited two party members to dinner at his house, then "locked the door". As if locking your front door in London is some sort of imprisonment of your guests...

Lots of mentions of Saville, abuse in the Catholic church etc all serve to devalue the suffering of the victims in those cases.

ICBINEG Wed 27-Feb-13 10:22:39

hmmm so clearly putting your hands on someone in this context is all manner of wrong, but simply asking someone out should be okay.

There has to be some way for men and women in positions of power to go on dates!

But YADNBU to think Nick Clegg failed in the basic curiosity and get to the bottom of rumour stakes. As soon as someone has made an allegation it should be investigated. And if what is being said is true then action should have been taken at the time.

vesela Wed 27-Feb-13 10:40:48

None of the complainants has mentioned Savile. That was Jasper Gerard (idiot).

Amateurish Wed 27-Feb-13 10:57:59

I meant media, not complainants, e.g.

vesela Wed 27-Feb-13 10:59:06

I know, but that's not the fault of the complainants, is it?

kimorama Wed 27-Feb-13 11:10:54

RENNARD All leadership is about knowing what to ignore and what to stamp on. Cleggy got tyhis one wrong. It is serious because Renaard was a superior of the women he allegedly harrassed. There are said to be nine of them.

olgaga Wed 27-Feb-13 11:25:36

Clegg on this morning's LBC phone-in.

All over the place! How embarrassing.

EducationalAppStore Wed 27-Feb-13 11:37:31

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BOF Wed 27-Feb-13 11:43:38

I don't think I've been so depressed from reading a thread on mumsnet for a very long time. Jesus.

I find it scary that these people, who are involved in the running of this country, seem to be incapable of telling the truth. Why are they so stupid to think that cover ups and evasion will fool anyone anymore. There are decent MP's out there (please god let this be true) and they are being tarred with the brush of lying idiots when they don't deserve to be. Is it any wonder that people don't vote and don't want to get involved when all they see is the self serving, deviousness and ineptitude of people like Clegg/Huhne, and the rest of them who have been caught with their hands in the till/on someone's leg and worse?

ophelia275 Wed 27-Feb-13 12:06:12

Why are you so surprised? Nick Clegg is totally out of touch with the sentiment of the man on the street and is just a typical lying, cheating, greedy politician whose main concern is the protection of his own career. He would probably sell his mother if he thought it would get him more money or more power.

I wasn't surprised but I am unimpressed.

That said, some posts on this thread in part explains how this issue has been ignored. People really don't take sexual harassment seriously do they? Never mind that it can wreck a woman's mental health, career and relationships. Never mind that it exists as an abuse of power and thus directly links to other types of sexual abuse. It's something that woman are expected to 'deal with'. Well sod that for a game of soldiers.

SirEdmundFrillary Wed 27-Feb-13 12:27:21

I very much agree with the points made by NorthernLurker and LineRunner.

Lottapianos Wed 27-Feb-13 13:00:55

'It's something that woman are expected to 'deal with'. Well sod that for a game of soldiers. '

And any woman who had any 'gumption' would be able to deal with it anyway? hmm

Jesus Christ, it really is beyond depressing that there is always someone to downplay and minimise stories like these, by making references to 'real sexual abuse' and 'genuine' victims. Is it any wonder that women and men who have been sexually harassed don't come forward when there are other men and women just queuing up to assassinate their characters and deem them pathetic whiners who just want to cause a lot of trouble?

We have such a very very long way to go sad

elizabethaaliyah Wed 27-Feb-13 13:36:17

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PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 14:28:14

I think Clegg deserves all he gets after the disgraceful way he behaved over the Boundary Commission changes.

EldritchCleavage Wed 27-Feb-13 15:41:01

All focus on the women as usual.

Why did no one say (and why does no one now say) Rennard should have tied a bloody knot in it and stopped sliming up to women at work? There are bars and websites for that sort of thing. Y'know, where the men and women are both actively looking for encounters/relationships (or is mutuality not his thing?).

Rennard stops doing it, problem solved, sorted. Never mind all this hand-wringing about the state of the nation now women have the temerity to say they don't want to be hit on constantly at work because they are, well, working.

LineRunner Wed 27-Feb-13 16:32:38

It's going to be interesting to see if Rennard will be going for a defence of literal denial (it actually didn't happen) or interpretive denial (it didn't happen quite the way it has been described, and frankly what's all the fuss about).

My reading of it so far is he is plumping for the former, which quite frankly seems 'brave', and is frustrating his colleagues.

anneriordan Wed 27-Feb-13 18:05:22

Wanting to send this to Shirley Williams but can't find a way to do that

I despaired on reading your comments about Lord Rennard. Unlike you, I am still engaged in working within organisations, with line managers and bosses and all sorts of people, mostly straight men, who wield day-to-day power over me.
I have, in the past 20-odd years of employment, suffered very little direct sexual advances from those I work with, in the office – we are far, far better than your generation on that. But I have been through enough. It grieves me that at 24, I felt able to tell one late-forties man, to whom I had barely spoken and only politely, to fuck off when he ran his finger down my spine, but at 35, when a similarly-aged but even more revolting man put his hand round my waist as I walked past, all I could do was cry in the toilets. That change was because I had worked too long in an organisation that had no respect for women (or anyone, including themselves, a longer story*).
I have also been fortunate enough to work in organisations where a boss effectively sitting on your lap (ie in close contact from the waist down), and then pursuing you around the room to do so repeatedly, would be seen as absolutely unacceptable and – if repeated – a sacking offence. I thought the world had grown up.
I now know for sure that you don’t value women you don’t know, or their right to have un-horrible times at work, more than you value a deluded, inadequate, power-obsessed man. Because if these allegations are true, then he is not a “good man”. He might be good at things, he might behave admirably in many ways, but he thinks women are a buffet, not people.
Please never speak about women at work again. Surely FGM, forced marriage, things you might not have sentimentally-distorted views on, are enough.
Again. Please be quiet. We are working.
*The short version is that a Senior Partner was shagging, doubly adulterously, a fairly capable but nowhere-near-great (and noticeably, for the job requirements, illiterate) economist, and retained his line management of her, and set her pay, appraisal and bonuses, and let her decide what she wanted to work on. It was despicable. Do you disagree?

LineRunner Wed 27-Feb-13 18:12:17


House of Lords, London, SW1A 0PW
Tel: 020 7219 5850
Fax: 020 7219 1174

anneriordan Wed 27-Feb-13 18:16:25

thank you, Line Runner! wasn't on her home page that I could see.

LineRunner Wed 27-Feb-13 18:23:41

<taps nose>

Apparent Williams has said that Rennard's conduct has been 'hopelessly exaggerated'. How the f**k does she know that?

noddyholder Wed 27-Feb-13 18:25:09

He has single handedly destroyed all the progress the lib dems made over the years in the lead up to the last election

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 18:33:14

olgaga very good post, sums up my thoughts on the bastards too.

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 18:33:49

Line why on earth do you expect anything more from Shirley Williams?

LineRunner Wed 27-Feb-13 18:50:32

PessaryPam I suppose I have been conned into thinking she was ok because people always give her a nice clap on Questiontime.

TheOriginalLadyFT Wed 27-Feb-13 18:57:09

Jesus Christ, it really is beyond depressing that there is always someone to downplay and minimise stories like these, by making references to 'real sexual abuse' and 'genuine' victims. Is it any wonder that women and men who have been sexually harassed don't come forward when there are other men and women just queuing up to assassinate their characters and deem them pathetic whiners who just want to cause a lot of trouble?

This. What he did is vile, sexual coercion and it is not acceptable. I am sick and tired of the whole "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" bullshit levelled at women daring to refuse to play the "this is how the big boys roll" game.

Nick Clegg knew fine well what was being said about Rennard and he ignored it, because politics trumps women's rights. I've heard all the LibDem cant on equal opportunities and you know what? Fine words butter no parsnips.

FloraFox Wed 27-Feb-13 21:06:00

It seems Williams is saying not just that the accusations against Rennard were hopelessly exaggerated but "the whole thing". I assume she means the outrage about the lack of action in response to the complaints by the Lib Dems for years is hopelessly exaggerated. This sort of thing together with Clegg's minimising statements about self-appointed detectives and his pitiful performance on LBC are almost as disgraceful as their failures to deal with the complaints at the time. The shocking thing is that they clearly cannot see that.

Having read her mother's books where she describes her hopes for her daughter, I'm always disappointed in Shirley Williams.

The argument that this is being 'stirred up' as a political football is so flawed. Sure the timing suits some parties and not the Lib Dems but there still has to be something to stir. So many women are said to have been involved. Are they all poor at coping, lacking in gumption and exaggerating? hmm

Now I'm seriously annoyed! Even Allison Pearson has said something sensible about this. It painds me to agree with her at all <<shudder>>

edam Wed 27-Feb-13 22:26:35

It's striking that Rennard hasn't denied assault or harassment or propositioning women who knew he had the power to decide whether they were selected. He has merely claimed that he has never received any complaints. Yet we know complaints were made, and Clegg has now admitted that was a factor in asking Rennard to step down.

It's clear that Rennard knows he's guilty as sin.

FloraFox Wed 27-Feb-13 23:55:22

It's so annoying when prominent people are accused of things and they respond with highly technical denials. It allows their supporter to say "well he's denying it" but denying what? Clegg's responses have been the same.

Darkesteyes Thu 28-Feb-13 00:00:03

Only just caught the end of this thread but apparently Clegg knew about this in 2008.
On Channel 4 news tonight they showed a clip of a speech Clegg did in 2009 (the following year) where he was praising Rennard and practically licking his arse.
Makes me feel sick!

LineRunner Thu 28-Feb-13 00:00:03

I feel like the senior Lib Dems are in a holding pattern over Eastleigh until the result tomorrow night and then Rennard may well be on his own.

Jasmo Thu 28-Feb-13 08:49:05

Worked with Chris Rennard in the 1980s and never heard a whisper or saw any inappropriate behaviour. However he was someone both admired and feared, seen as a very slick operator and willing to play dirty in elections to get results.
A lifelong liberal I joined the party at 16 but I have nothing but contempt for Nick Clegg and the party now! I wouldnt vote for them again with him at the helm. I wanted Chris Huhne to win the last leadership contest so there's a damning indictment for you , one's a criminal willing to lie to the police and the other is willing to sell his principles and say anything to get off the hook. Completely disillusioned with every single one of them!

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 09:08:56

I know Clegg is politically inept, but now he seems to be being inept beyond the call of duty. There has to be some reason - it must all run deeper in some way. Because the only sensible thing to have done would have been to say what Tim Farron has - "we screwed up."

PeoniesPlease Thu 28-Feb-13 09:23:59

I'm really angry about this - all these abuse stories coming out actually. But what really fucks me off about Clegg is that it seems to me that if he didn't know the substance of the allegations against Rennard (which I find hmm, but anyway), then he displayed a shocking lack of curiosity over the whole matter, in order that he would later be able to claim ignorance. It seems to me that he will sacrifice anything (or anyone) for power. angry

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 09:30:51

Peonies - I think they probably made a deal in 2008/9 that Rennard would stand aside in return for not being presented with any formal complaints or named persons, to give him cover if any of the complainants did later go to the press/police. What I don't get is why Clegg seems to have felt the need to stress that he also "knew nothing." Clegg must have realised he wouldn't get away with it. Or it all runs deeper.

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 09:35:12

i.e. I don't get why it was so vital for Clegg to make out that he didn't know. The only sensible course of action would have been to say "We thought it would be enough to get rid of Rennard, sorry, we know we should have had a proper investigation. We screwed up."

YouTheCat Thu 28-Feb-13 09:37:48

The LibDems... so much backtracking they have more reverse gears than an Italian tank. grin

Agree Vesela, but that would be open and honest and that seems to be impossible for some of these politicians. Why they just can't work out that to be upfront and tell the truth when this happens god only knows - are they really as stupid as all that? Terrifying that they are involved in running the country.

PeoniesPlease Thu 28-Feb-13 09:44:15

Vesela, that does seem more likely than my theories! I'm just annoyed that it seems that they are actually incapable of knowing the difference between telling the truth and lying - being honest isn't what matters, the "spin" is what is important to them.

And no one seemed to care about the victims in all of this - it was all about managing Rennard.

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 09:48:09

frostyfingers - probably because they're all threatening each other. "If you let on about X, then I'll do Y/let it be known that Z." The ones at the centre of the action, anyway.

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 10:02:28

I also don't like the "everyone knew about the rumours" culture. I think that some people in the party actually relished that kind of thing - who's in the know and who isn't. A bit like with Charles Kennedy.

Although some obviously hold more responsibility than others, and some tried and others didn't, it's still a collective failure on the part of the Lib Dems, in my view.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Feb-13 10:03:46

Even I knew Charles Kennedy had an alcohol problem and I have nothing to do with the LibDems.

jobenn Thu 28-Feb-13 10:03:55

Agree with ppeatfruit. I's right across British society. We have to widen our concerns, not just limit them to personally attacking the latest poor mutt who has got himself caught.

Now then, you people who are all Nick Clegg bashing - I do hope you haven't been reading the Daily Mail? Most of the UK does unfortunately, & we have recently discovered, thanks to mumsnet (media requests) exactly how they stoke up their hate campaigns. Possibly the press generally does the same, so I shouldn't limit my censure to the DM, but this just happens to be on my radar at the moment.

YouTheCat Thu 28-Feb-13 10:06:04

I do not read the Fail! I don't even click on links.

Clegg is an idiot who has been utterly ineffectual as a Deputy PM. Many politicians are self-serving weasels.

jobenn Thu 28-Feb-13 10:08:30

Sorry, ppeatfruit's post I referred to is way back on Page 1, I just read very slowly!!

jobenn Thu 28-Feb-13 10:10:24

And your post YouTheCat, essentially supposts what I am saying - "many politicians are self-serving weasels." Yes, across all parties!

ppeatfruit Thu 28-Feb-13 10:31:09

Yes jobenn thanks grin This reminds me of a poster attacking Clegg on a different thread and calling him a Toff I had to remind her that Cameron is the ultimate mindless toff and some how he doesn't seem to attract the vitriol that's reserved for the Libdems. IMO the DM has a LOT to do with it.

EssexGurl Thu 28-Feb-13 10:31:23

I admit I haven't read all posts. BUT just wanted to say that in previous life in HR, unless people were prepared to make formal complaints regarding ANY misconduct (sexual harassment, bullying, stealing) then there was nothing that could formally be done.

I lost count of the number of times I sat in meeting rooms with staff complaining about another employee but who would never put anything on record.

I don't know what has happened in this case, and am not condoning anyone's behaviour. Just saying I can empathise if the women didn't want to take it further then it is difficult for any action to be taken.

However, if they did and it was hidden, then that is truly appalling and hopefully we will find out what happened at some point.

EldritchCleavage Thu 28-Feb-13 10:37:53

I think that's true, Essexgurl. It must be very frustrating to have people making complaints about a person but not going on the record.

However, we have to ask why they won't put complaints on the record too. All too often the answer is,'Well, because even if you the organisation don't crucify me (and I think you probably will) the newspapers will come along and do it for you'.

It's a big problem, but we must be careful not to expect the women complainants to be brave saints prepared to sacrifice career and reputation when none of the men are being subjected to the same expectations.

kimorama Thu 28-Feb-13 11:27:43

It is a Lib dem issue because they seem to have GOT CAUGHT. And its important because it invoves a high official. (Alegedly)

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 11:32:09

From what Alison Smith says, she did try pretty hard to make a complaint.

YoutheCat - yes, probably not a very good comparison! But I wish all these people who say they knew about the rumours had ganged up and insisted something be done about it. Still, not easy when one person has so much power - they needed him too much. And I'm sure that among others there was an element of disbelief, in that to talk to he was pleasant, friendly and uncondescending.

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 11:38:03

(I was an activist local to him, so was there a couple of - fortunately uneventful - times).

Personally I couldn't care whether it's Clegg, Cameron, Milliband or whoever. They all do the slippery weasel bit when it suits. It just so happens that it's Clegg and the Lib Dems this time round. There was an article in the paper this week (Times I think) which commented that bearing in mind the size of the party and it's membership there seemed to be a high number of "offences".....

I worked in advertising in the 80's and there was a fair amount of "blokey" behaviour, especially at conferences etc but although I had a bit of verbal joking rather than physical contact I didn't have a problem dealing with it. It doesn't mean I think it was right and I think we have (believe it or not) come some way that something like this is now a scandal - 20 years ago it wouldn't have been.

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 12:03:30

frostyfingers - there are a fair few Lib Dems who seem to think feminism is something that has to be paid lip service to in manifestos but is really something fundamentally illiberal. And Rennard had too much power, for a party that believes in the dispersal of power. But otherwise - yes, I'm sure it has been and is rife across the board, and I hope that partly as a result of this it becomes less so.

SirEdmundFrillary Thu 28-Feb-13 13:05:13

"However, we have to ask why they won't put complaints on the record too. All too often the answer is,'Well, because even if you the organisation don't crucify me (and I think you probably will) the newspapers will come along and do it for you'."

Exactly spot on, Eldritch. Exactly.

vesela Thu 28-Feb-13 13:26:54

Amazing, really, that no men have come up yet with any stories of how they were hit on by their female bosses. That's maybe because it just doesn't happen - or if it does, it's vanishingly rare. Maybe the men are very good at giving their predatory female bosses a swift kick on the shin or something.

Herrena Thu 28-Feb-13 13:56:37

You might all be interested in this, the Everyday Sexism project. Not exactly the subject of the thread but still of interest perhaps.

Here's an article about it too.

edam Thu 28-Feb-13 14:48:23

Thanks Herrena, interesting link.

I don't like the victim-blaming inherent in some of the comments (not on this thread necessarily) about 'well, if they won't make a complaint, what can you do?' Allows people to get away with repeated assault by making it the victim's problem and the victim's responsibility. What's more, often, as in this case, people did actually make complaints but they weren't taken seriously.

If you hear about harassment, or assault, you can investigate. You can try to find out whether there are multiple victims. You can reassure victims that their cards will not be marked and there will be absolutely no come-back on them for making a complaint and make sure you demonstrate that to be true. You can seek HR advice - and if you work in HR, you can seek advice from professional organisations in that world or from ACAS, for instance. You can make sure every employee knows about specific HR policies and the consequences of flouting them...

ppeatfruit Thu 28-Feb-13 21:29:55

vesela I posted early on about a male young Conservative who was interviewed on R4 talking about it being the norm to be propositioned by the powerful older M.P.'s etc. (he didn't specify which sex) but he said they made it obvious if the younger person didn't comply with certain demands that they wouldn't succeed in the party (makes you wonder about all the ones in power now doesn't it ?)

Dromedary Thu 28-Feb-13 22:04:51

Haven't read whole thread. The reality is, if someone high up in an organisation is thought to have behaved badly, the priority will probably be a) to keep them in the organisation if at all possible - very often the person making the complaint will end up being forced out, probably with a settlement payment including gagging clause; if not possible then b) to get them to leave as quietly as possible, with no embarrassing disciplinary hearing and publicity. This kind of departure is also likely to involve a settlement payment and gagging clause, especially if there is any room for argument that they did not do what is alleged. I am not at all surprised that Rennard went quietly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there was some agreement and payment involved. At the time this may well have been seen as a favourable outcome for the women complainants.

edam Thu 28-Feb-13 22:22:44

Dromedary - I know that's the reality but it's shit. For example, there was an horrendous sexual harrassment/assault case at my former employer. The women who were brave enough to complain were bullied/forced out. Because they wouldn't withdraw the complaint, the bastard concerned (who was married to someone else who works there - nice!) had to leave but he was immediately given a very lucrative freelance contract. So he's doing very nicely thank you. Even worse, he's now been voted in as a pension trustee - clearly 99.9% of the people voting had no idea what a dirty creep he is.

If a proper formal investigation had been done, followed by proper disciplinary action, he wouldn't still have a role in that company and wouldn't be responsible for my pension, the horrible little bastard. Makes me feel sick that he's got away with it. And this from a supposedly ethical company that trades on its reputation...

Dromedary Thu 28-Feb-13 22:45:22

Edam - yes, if organisations were more open, less of this kind of stuff would go on. But the last thing an organisation wants is bad publicity. They also put money first, so someone who brings it in is protected.
The most immoral behaviour I have come across from an organisation - it was mind bogglingly immoral - came from a supposedly very highly ethical organisation. I am now very very cynical. If in doubt I refer you to the Roman Catholic Church and their wonderful response to child abuse allegations.

FloraFox Fri 01-Mar-13 00:38:06

The odd thing is that it seems he was being brought back in. It flies in the face of Clegg's insinuations on LBC that he pushed Rennard out. Clegg is in a very difficult spot, now largely arising from allowing Rennard to make a return.

ppeatfruit Fri 01-Mar-13 08:10:43

Yes Dromedary I totally agree about the RC church's reaction to abuse; a very good example to set other organisations.

fromparistoberlin Fri 01-Mar-13 08:20:37

It baffles me how most industries have better defined sexual harassment policies than the people who RUN THE BLOODY COUNTRY

and I am extremely pleased this is receiving alot of attention

and as for that gross fat minging PERV. shame on him, hope he is annihilated

edam Sat 02-Mar-13 14:00:01

Good point, fromparis. I used to be a charity trustee in an organisation full of doctors. They were all good guys, keen to improve healthcare. But jeez, scratch the surface and there were some very patronising attitudes to women. I called them on it, with one other woman, and they were VERY hostile - because they assumed they were good guys. We ended up walking out.

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