To be bothered by DH's new "food militancy"??? He's turned vegan and gone a bit nuts really.

(274 Posts)
MrsMushroom Sun 24-Feb-13 23:38:46

He's always been into healthy eating and working out...it's part of his personality. Fine.

But...a friend of his (big into uncovering government plots and all that...lizard people you know)

Well this friend sent DH a copy of something called The China Study which is a big expose on our food chain etc.

All this happened BEFORE the horse meat thing.

DH is now vegan. He's constantly asking me to read the report...telling me things like "When meat protein mixes with milk protein that is what causes some cancers"

And the latest is that cheap peanut butter has mold in it...which causes cancer.

So we can only buy organic.

He won't eat any processed foods...we hardly have any anway! As a family we didn't eat a lot of meat...one roast chicken a week which we got 3 meals out of...and maybe a bit of bacon.

That was it...no red meat really as we're on a small budget.

I'm frigging SICK of hearing it all!

he's now on Skype with his paranoid mate and they're discussing the evils of that fake meat...what's it called...you know soy stuff.

I cooked a chicken yestersay which I ate with the DDs...he came in from work and asked me to cover the chicken up...I suspect because he was tempted.

AIBU to be bored and a bit annoyed?

YouTheCat Sun 24-Feb-13 23:42:02

Sounds very irritating. Ignore him. Tell him he can cater for himself and keep his daft ideas to himself.

MrsMushroom Sun 24-Feb-13 23:44:51

Well he does catrer for himself with no complaints. it's just his holier than though attitude and the constant unwanted reminders that the food I like is apparently killing me.

it's like he has to have something to be INTO. Or he's not happy. WHY? Just fucking read a novel. Write one! Do something creative...don't be so navel gazing about your body and your life!

Seabright Sun 24-Feb-13 23:44:59

Buy him a parsnip and insert it let him deal with it as he sees fit.

FannyBazaar Sun 24-Feb-13 23:46:36

Does he grow the organic stuff? You can never trust the stuff you buy, get him digging if he wants to know exactly where his food comes from wink.

YouTheCat Sun 24-Feb-13 23:46:42

Tell him to go and do some volunteer work to stop him being so self-obsessed?

YANBU. Buy him a copy of Ben Goldacre's book and get him to check out the Bad Science Forum

TBH I'd be MORE worried about the influence this paranoid conspiracy-theorising so-called mate seems to have over your DH, especially as his opinions seem to override yours when it comes to family decision making.

MrsMushroom Sun 24-Feb-13 23:47:19

I do! I am sick of the fridge full of vegatables and cupboard full of pulses! All he eats are fruit, veg, pulses and rice etc. He's not having cheese or yogurt or anything and hasn't for about a month.

Fine...but shut up about it!

OhLori Sun 24-Feb-13 23:47:31

Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food. How true. However, this maxim is tempered with (in my) opinion that "healthy eating" becomes a problem when it comes from a place of Fear and Paranoia. It can be easy to fall into this obsession .... It is a positive thing to care about your body and eat healthily, but when people get into a tizz looking at a chicken or cannot relax socially in restaurants and friends' houses, there is a problem. Perhaps you could explain the difference to your husband? He may have just missed that in his current excitement/obsession - if all your life is taken up worrying about food, that is not real life ...

You may have to ride this out ... but you don't have to listen/go along with it.

Am I the only one who is grin about him turning vegan and 'going a bit nuts'. <giggles> I'm allowed to be cynical, I was 8 years behind the nut cutlet, woman and girl.

expatinscotland Sun 24-Feb-13 23:48:23

Ignore him! Weirdo.

MrsMushroom Sun 24-Feb-13 23:48:25

Well Lapsed his diet is his diet....not the family diet...so it's not affecting the families descion making at all. I still have cheese etc as do the DC.

MrsMushroom Sun 24-Feb-13 23:48:52

No MrsPratchett I noticed that after I wrote it too! grin

FairPhyllis Sun 24-Feb-13 23:52:37

YANBU. I would find it really difficult if someone I lived with radically changed the way they eat, but I would have an even harder time respecting anyone who started buying into paranoia and conspiracy theories.

PatsysPyjamas Mon 25-Feb-13 00:11:38

He does sound annoying. And covering the chicken up? Odd. Plus, if you're on a small budget, his health fads are going to be adding to the bill. Obviously you can't stop him from being vegan though. Does he never eat the family meals?

LadyBeagleEyes Mon 25-Feb-13 00:37:49

As long as you don't have anything to do with him and his diet just let him get on with it.
Carry on with feeding and eating with your dc.
I bet he picks at the chicken when you're not around though.

VivaLeBeaver Mon 25-Feb-13 00:38:58

Dh has the same ideas about food but thankfully isn't evangelical about it. He's been vegi for 30 years and just about vegan for nearly 10. No cheese, no milk, no eggs but he will eat yoghurt.

No quorn type stuff, no pasta and rice at a very maximum of once per week. No processed stuff.

He caters for himself. And he would cook dd bacon butties, etc if I'm out.

He does piss me off by opening all the windows if I cook sausages though as he can't stand the smell. So this time of year we can't eat them as he will insist on all the windows and the back door been wide open for an hour.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Mon 25-Feb-13 00:42:45

But what is this doing to your small budget, if everything suddenly has to be organic?

And does the separate meal thing mean that you are cooking and cleaning for you and the DC with no help and he never takes a turn, and then he does the cooking and cleaning up for him? So there are two meals and clean ups to be done every night?

That would drive me utterly batty.

I had a friend who decided to become vegan after watching a programme about processing plants etc...she had this preachy preachy attitude and talked about how everything I was eating and feeding my DD was poison and went a little nuts about it all...I used to just say we ALL die eventually it is the one single thing we all have in common...I would much rather eat what I eat and look closer to Nigella than starve myself eating seeds and raw veggies, look like Gillian McKeith obsessing over my poo and die at roughly the same age I would have done anyway! Life is too short to examine every single thing that passes my lips...wink

GregBishopsBottomBitch Mon 25-Feb-13 00:51:59

Tell him to shut up before you ram a Filly con carne down his throat.

But your not NBU, because they are his views, hes doesnt need to force feed them to you.

MrsMushroom Mon 25-Feb-13 00:55:48

He will cook for us all...we just eat what he makes and then fill up on ham later! grin

I cook a roast dinner...he eats all the veg...I just end up doing say 6 vegetables instead of the usual three!

So he's got a plate of roast potatoes, broccoli, roast carrots, sprouts and roast garlic for eg.

The DC are used to eating vegi food as we've always done it to some extent. It's the lecuring me now and then I hate.

flow4 Mon 25-Feb-13 01:00:14

Annoying... But it will pass. New converts to any cause are always a bit over-enthusiastic wink I have friends who have been vegan for 20+ years, and they never mention it any more! grin

LentilAsAnything Mon 25-Feb-13 01:05:25

So he is passionate about wanting to eat healthily? Gosh, how utterly awful for you. Good for him. Perhaps you should read The China Study too, and maybe you will understand where he is coming from. Or you could watch the film Forks Over Knives, and Earthlings.

LadyBeagleEyes Mon 25-Feb-13 01:09:21

I'ts threads like this that make me ever thankful I'm single
I now realise that I have utterly no patience at all and no one could ever live with me without being murdered in the first hour.
It really is my way or no way and I love it, I'm so selfish.
Fuck compromise.grin

expatinscotland Mon 25-Feb-13 01:19:33

Thanks to this thread, I'm tempted to rustle up a ham salad roll.

expatinscotland Mon 25-Feb-13 01:21:01

Viva, WTF does he eat?

KatieMiddleton Mon 25-Feb-13 01:31:17

I bet these vegan faddies are trumping away like a big brass band!

Next time he pushes you to read his conspiracy-theory crap literature, maybe you should point him in the direction of this? smile

sashh Mon 25-Feb-13 02:46:22

Is he really vegan?

There can be tiny prawns in drinking water. Alcohol is often not vegan. Does he eat bread that he has not made himself? Is wasabi vegan? I know it is haram.

*I would just be challenging everything he ate, questionaing whether it is vegan and being just as annoying.

noblegiraffe Mon 25-Feb-13 04:47:48

And yet life expectancy in the UK is 80 years and only 74 in China.

MrsMushroom Mon 25-Feb-13 07:00:38

Sash he makes all our bread...yes he's really vegan. He doesn't worry about micro organisms.

YANBU at all.
Being vegan, or any other type of principled diet- fine.

Lecturing nearest and dearest- not fine.

Talking total and utter crap about food, what it does, and going all curtain-twitchy and starting to believe in conspiracy theories- road to singled-dom!

You're being very tolerant!

Ha ha - I am laughing here at the fact that the OP and her husband have discussed whether or not to worry about 'micro organisms'..smile

Op - I feel very bad for you. How utterly annoying that he is setting himself apart from the family so much through his bloody diet. He sounds completely brainwashed. Hopefully his fad will soon pass - or atleast he will just get on with it.

What's for dinner today? I would subscribe to a daily blog by you about this...wink
thanks

VivaLeBeaver Mon 25-Feb-13 07:28:24

DH eats veg, fruit, pulses, nuts, bean burgers, jacket potatoes, veg soup, salads, hummus and yoghurts and thats pretty much it. He's really, really skinny. He runs a lot as well, goes out and runs 15 miles in the evening.

DancingInTheMoonlight Mon 25-Feb-13 07:30:53

Hehe i have nothing constructive to say. I think if my dh did this i would be very childish and buy I'm (and cook) all his previous fav meat grin

throckenholt Mon 25-Feb-13 07:38:49

A work colleague just had his umpteenth tooth out in a period of a few months. His parents were vegan and he says his teeth are falling apart because they had no idea of the effects of the diet they fed him would be.

You have to work very hard to make vegan a healthy option given we are a species that is designed to be omnivorous. Meat protein is part of our natural diet.

Next time he starts to lecture ask him to explain to you (in a non aggressive way) the nutrition of veganism. There is more to food than just emotion - no matter how you might dislike some food production methods.

Dawndonna Mon 25-Feb-13 07:39:45

Tell him that Vegan does not have to equal martyr!

MrsSchadenfreude Mon 25-Feb-13 07:41:57

I feel your pain. DH has become evangelical about some woman with plastic tits who has invented the "Eat Clean Diet" and we have to eat everything she says (salmon cooked in soy milk, anyone?) and worship at the Altar of Tosca (for that is her name). I have, rather childishly, drawn a moustache on her beaming face on the cover of her book.

Whatever else Tosca does, she can't cook. Most of the recipes in her book are grilled fish and veg or salad or grilled meat and veg or salad. She is also picky about the carbs and everything has to be wholegrain. I have shown willing and have cooked some of the recipes from her book, while telling DH that I can tell from reading the recipe that they aren't going to work (beyond the meat/fish and veg combo). And this has been proven! We've had rice balls that won't stay formed into balls as they have nothing to hold them together, some kind of dessert, also in ball form, that wouldn't stay together. He broke the food processor grinding nuts and seeds for one of her recipes. And I have insisted that he cook these sorry offerings, as if I cooked them and they went wrong, it would be because I wasn't doing it correctly.

He eats for lunch every single day, tuna, brown rice and lettuce. As we have to have our 5 a day, it is up to me to put these in the evening meal. I have suggested he might like some fruit during the day, but he does not like fruit (he might eat the odd banana, but that is about it). And it is all very boring.

MrsMushroom Mon 25-Feb-13 08:16:55

MrsSchad does he buy responsibly fished tuna? Doesn't he know it's full of Mercury? wink

Viva...your Dh eats basically what mine eats. Bloody weirdos.

SmiteYouWithThunderbolts Mon 25-Feb-13 08:20:48

YANBU. You should introduce your DH to my bloody mother. She's recently turned vegan "for spiritual reasons" after 40 years of being vegetarian. Her Facebook page is full of memes and blogs about how evil dairy is and she was so smug when the horsemeat scandal broke. I live her to pieces but am more than a bit fed up with the evangelism!

Did you start the thread about him starting to buy into his friend's "lizard" theories? Has he stopped that now?

claraschu Mon 25-Feb-13 08:25:11

The China Study makes very interesting reading.
There are lots of reasons to be vegan, and some vegans are incredibly annoying about it.
Lots of meat eaters are extremely annoying and dismissive of other people's choices too, and this thread shows that clearly.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 25-Feb-13 08:32:23

Nothing wrong with being vegan - but you have to do it properly. As someone said up thread, it's not natural so you have to work pretty hard to get all the macro/micro nutrients. Ask your DH where his vitB12 is coming from, there is no natural vegan source for it, so it needs to be taken as a supplement.

From the sounds of it he needs to watch his protein too, I he is just eating veg while you have a roast dinner where is the protein? (There is protein in veg the not a lot).

Also, some of the best vegan protein sources are processed in some way - tofu, tempeh, and seitan so he really really needs to watch his intake. (Also Quorn is not vegan if that is what you were referring to in your OP)

expatinscotland Mon 25-Feb-13 08:34:40

Sounds like he has an eating disorder, Viva.

livinginwonderland Mon 25-Feb-13 09:20:26

viva your husband sounds like my dad! his "phase" has gone on for eight years or so now!

expatinscotland i'd disagree with it being an eating disorder. there's nothing wrong in running and being healthy. my dad eats the same as viva's husband and he doesn't have an eating disorder. he's perfectly healthy, very fit, runs a lot etc. -he just won't eat meat or processed food (however, if he's in a restaurant or at someone's house and is offered it, he will eat it). it's not an eating disorder to be healthy!

MrsMushroom Mon 25-Feb-13 09:24:52

SPB yes...luckily he sees that is a load of tosh now. He loves his mate and I think this is something they can bond over but to be hoenst when we saw his mate over Christmas, I felt he seemed a bit mentally unstable.

His wife looked very strained and he talks about conspiracy theories with anyone who will listen....he and DH discuss nutrition ALL the time...at least it's better than pondering whether the QUeen is a lizard or not. hmm

I kind of see where Expat is coming from...sometimes eating disorders are disguised in "allergies" and veganism. I had anorexia as a teenager and in my 20s...I can spot a disorder a mile off and DH has always been a bit that way inclined.

An extreme need to control his diet etc.

Can we call them "Vegangelists"?

I know not all vegans are like this at all (I know some lovely, NON-vegangelical ones), but the ones that are drive me a bit potty. I'm a lifelong veggie because I don't like the thought of eating meat, but I don't feel the need to lecture others.

12ylnon Mon 25-Feb-13 09:35:47

Oh god, this would drive me up the wall. I would read the report... and then tell him he's being a massive twat and to stop bringing it up. Make it very clear that you're fine with the decision he's made, but you have no intention of following him on his crazy food journey and it's driving you up the wall hearing about it.

I've been vegetarian since i was 9 and luckily, my DP was brought up a veggie too. We're not evangelical AT ALL. Literally no fucks given what other people eat (although, i do wish people would eat more free range, but i certainly wouldn't nag people about it).

Have you told him it's annoying you?

weegiemum Mon 25-Feb-13 09:38:17

I was actually going o say what expat said.

I've known 2 people with eating disorders and in both cases it went from healthy omnivorous diet -> healthy vegetarian diet -> much less healthy veggie diet -> veganism (but not managed properly) -> not eating at all. Both poor women were incredibly evangelical about every stage, becoming increasingly more so.

They also both exercised to extreme.

I'm not saying this is what is wrong here, but I can see some red flags.

Hullygully Mon 25-Feb-13 09:42:06

He's right though.

limitedperiodonly Mon 25-Feb-13 09:53:14

It sounds like the problem is in his head not his food.

I don't know what to suggest OP but I feel very sorry for you.

StuntGirl Mon 25-Feb-13 09:54:20

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being vegan, and he is eating with the rest of the family just not the aninal produced parts. So YABU about that.

Buying organic and avoiding over processed food is great, but only if you can afford it.

Trying to force you to follow his diet is not on if you've expressly said you're not interested. This is where YANBU and he needs to respect your choices. But it works both ways and you need to respect his too.

exoticfruits Mon 25-Feb-13 09:57:32

Ignore him. Carry on as normal and let him cater for himself if he wants different-or suggest he does all the shopping and cooking.

MrsMushroom Mon 25-Feb-13 09:59:14

I haven't got time to read the report. When I read, it's things like The Last Noo Noo or stuff for work.

I would be worried about the effect of his loopy obsessions on the DCs. Also sitting down together and enjoying good food is one of the great pleasures of family life.

BeehavingBaby Mon 25-Feb-13 10:09:02

Are you me?! My DH is exactly the same, but we're sort of used to it now, 6-7 years on from him reading that book (and many, many others). He's moved a little bit away from the food focus and into meditation and living mindfully, the clean, animal-less eating is just part of who he is now and to a less-er extent, the family. It can be super annoying but on the plus side he is never ever ill, has endless patience with the DDs and cooks himself and us amazing food.

LangenFlugelHappleHoff Mon 25-Feb-13 10:14:53

Ba ha ha ha at gregs <childish>

Tell him to shut up before you ram a Filly con carne down his throat.

But your not NBU, because they are his views, hes doesnt need to force feed them to you.

Stop horseing around....rein it in you nightMARE!

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 10:15:46

I found the China study a very interesting read, and recently found this on youtube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEuRMm-a6mo

I have since searched to try to find what money the two doctors are making from this and have struggled to find much - the china study is free to download and nothing is promoted to buy from either men. In this search I have found a few people knocking the research and findings, but no one with any medical refrences and all have something themselves they are selling.

I read book and found it was not advocating giving up meat entirely but reducing to what I read was 5% or less of your diet.

BlackholesAndRevelations Mon 25-Feb-13 10:17:59

Filly con Carne!! grin grin < spits herbal tea all over phone> that's bloody hilarious.

Op- I have no time for the food-obsessed, although if he's got an eating disorder that's a different matter. I'm talking about people who judge what you eat and make comments about how unhealthy it is. My dp is unfortunately the other way round and eats a MONUMENTAL amount of crap, despite my gentle encouragement/cooking healthy family meals (which he doesn't eat) sad

Not sure which is worse?

BeehavingBaby Mon 25-Feb-13 10:22:03

Also sitting down together and enjoying good food is one of the great pleasures of family life

This is a strain. Also he once told me off in public for drinking a can of diet soda when pregnant.

Influence on the DDs good so far, they are thoughtful and knowledgeable about what they eat, that's all.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 25-Feb-13 10:22:03

Tell him when he does all the cooking he can decide what you all eat.

How bloody annoying.

It's like when my not so D H castigates me for using bleach. Well, he's welcome to scrub mould off the bathroom walls using just elbow grease and ecover if he likes.

Pigsmummy Mon 25-Feb-13 10:22:56

I told my DH that if he turned vegan I would divorce him......

ppeatfruit Mon 25-Feb-13 10:28:00

mrsmushroom Because I have a bad family history of cancer to be healthy (and it works grin) I've been on the Blood Type Diet for 12 years which might interest yr. DH because it tests every food against every blood type and if yr DH is an O type he could make himself ill by being vegan unless he takes a good B12 supplement.

Some organic meat is okay for all blood types.

HorribleMother Mon 25-Feb-13 10:32:21

He doesn't sound as bad as some, OP, he could be insisting you never have chicken at all.

I grew with food extremists, yes it is very tiring. And if they weren't on about food or conspiracies it was politics and religion. I'm sorry to say this, but in retrospect I see it was a manifestation of underlying OCD, exacerbated by illegal drug use (does your DH smoke pot, OP?)

My crazy family are probably a big factor in why I'm determined to have as few opinions as possible. I'm also fairly intolerant of almost anyone on a crusade or being evangelical about anything. Had my fill decades ago.

StuntGirl Mon 25-Feb-13 10:36:45

You would divorce someone for turning vegan? hmm

HorribleMother Mon 25-Feb-13 10:40:39

I reckon I've met quite a few vegans/veggies who say that they would divorce someone for eating meat. And they would be quite self-righteous about it, too.

specialsubject Mon 25-Feb-13 11:00:37

he should be ashamed and embarrassed of being this gullible, and so ignorant about science.

he is a member of a species which is designed to be omnivorous. If he wants to eat differently he needs to ensure that he gets the right nutrients. Without using food supplements which are not 'natural'. Let him get on with it as long as he cooks his own food. If the sight of a chicken upsets him, he needs to grow up.

BTW it isn't organic if it comes halfway round the planet on an aeroplane.

ppeatfruit Mon 25-Feb-13 11:06:05

specialsubject you and the scientists would be right if everyone were healthy but I haven't noticed that, in fact the opposite is true IMO and E.

limitedperiodonly Mon 25-Feb-13 11:10:04

Obviously divorcing someone for turning vegan is unreasonable and I guess it's a joke.

But unilaterally making or pressuring major changes to a household definitely puts strain on a marriage.

StuntGirl Mon 25-Feb-13 11:17:14

Intolerance is an ugly trait in anyone, no matter what their reasons horrible.

flatbread Mon 25-Feb-13 11:31:21

I think it is great that he is into a healthy diet and questioning food sources.

I am a vegetarian and could easily turn vegan, except I find it hard to give up yogurt. Perhaps butter too. Oh and honey. But could care less about eggs, milk, icecream, cheese and such.

It is not hard being a vegetarian. Even meat eaters don't really need meat more than twice a week. Pulses and nuts are good sources of protein. With right combos, you can get the full string of amino acids, e.g., beans and corn eaten together, like the South Americans do.

I think a lot of vegetarians are unhealthy because they eat too much carb and processed food like quorn. But then so are the sausage-stuffers who need meat in every meal.

Q: How can you tell if someone is a vegan?
A: Don't worry, they'll tell you.

Anyone who is evangelical about anything, food, religion, Star Wars etc, are the most boring bloody people on earth.

LTB! smile

MrsMushroom Mon 25-Feb-13 11:51:38

Ariel you really ought to read the whole thread. He does much of the cooking. I cook...he cooks....we eat together sometimes...not always.

misscph1973 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:53:42

I read The China Study and after years of being vegetarian I went vegan and also incorporated green smoothies (Victoria Boutenko). But I have recently given it up in favor of eating Paleo (loads of meat and low carb). It was quite hard for me to start to eat meat again and I still don't like the smell of frying in lard ;)

I have in periods been like your DH - I find it hard not to share my knowledge and I love nutrition, health, cooking and food in general. I do try to just love food and not talk about it all the time as I know it annoys many people but it's hard!

You should get your DH to read this:

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Spotting-Bad-Science-103-The-China-Study.pdf

This was the article that put me on the path to eating meat again. When I read Robb Wolfs The Paleo Solution, that was it for me, I started eating emat again. Robb Wolf is ex-vegetarian, so you might get your DH to read his book?

After I gave up being a vegan and gave up grains, my skin cleared up and I no longer have smelly vegan farts ;)

ppeatfruit Mon 25-Feb-13 12:05:48

You're probably an 0 type misschp 1973 You sound a bit like me grin have you looked at the Blood Type WOE ?It's by Dr Peter D'Adamo and explains a lot of things like allergies etc.

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 12:21:28

miss - the link, who is it written by?

The China Study is an interesting read and the author does say to not go overboard e.g if a food has some chicken stock or fish sauce in it eating it is not a problem.

It is IMO quite natural to share information that is in your family's best interest with them, that shows that you care. It is also normal to be enthusiastic about a new interest and want to talk about it with your partner.

To go on and on about it is a bit obsessive, especially if you have told him you are not interested. If he wants to discuss and debate it with his like-minded friend, fine, at least then he is not banging on to you about it.

If he wants you to buy foods of better quality that he eats fine, as long as your budget stretch to it. If not and he wants them, he needs to cut back elsewhere in order to fund it.

The issue here is his need to control to such an extent that he wishes to extend that to you. Tell him in no uncertain terms that you will be eating the foods you like and while you appreciate his concern he needs to respect your choice. If he tells you something new about a food say thank you for the information. If he tells you a second time, say I heard you the first time, I have made my decision I do not wish to discuss it further. Repeat every time he tries to engage you in conversation on the issue and walk away.

misscph1973 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:26:27

Thanks, ppeatfruit, I will take a look!

Sorry about the link with no reference to author, ivykaty44 , it's Tim Ferriss, author of The 4 hour work week and The four hour body. He's really good at disecting research.

multitask Mon 25-Feb-13 13:50:36

It shouldn't be hard to eat vegan as a family we do, I'm the only Vegan but we they eat 5 out of 7 maybe more days a week same as me and love it.

I love my way of life but don't preach on it, family know my views.

Instead of isolating him embrace his diet for a week or two make new different foods, cook with spices and get out of the mindset that meat is the center of all meals and you'll all enjoy it! Vegan food is cheap and there are tremendous health benefits. smile

misscph1973 Mon 25-Feb-13 14:23:09

My food budget doubled when I started eating meat again! I do miss that aspect and also, I quite like lentils and beans ;)

I always enjoyed cooking vegan, it's fun to use loads of herbs and spices.

ppeatfruit Mon 25-Feb-13 14:35:47

misscph If e.g. you bought an organic turkey then you could make it last a long time by freezing some and mincing, cooking for the freezer when you have the time etc. it's not necessary to have meat that much anyway is it?Take a good B12 supplement and also kelp which provides many of the vitamins and minerals that we need.

LentilAsAnything Mon 25-Feb-13 14:58:44

So many silly comments here. Like because someone minds what they eat, and exercises, they have a disorder, or an obsession. Oh dear, what a sad and sorry state of affairs. Credit to him.

ppeatfruit Mon 25-Feb-13 15:07:35

lentilAsAnything IKEWYM grin Our doctor who was the best one in the group practice,who I see very rarely indeed, told me that I was one in 35000 who ate for my health grin and she sighed hugely!!

Ha! DP did exactly the same as yours about the same time because of that program! Hope he's not your dHs 'mate'! He does all the cooking so we are now vegan as well but he says he can cook whatever I want for me but I don't really care, I see eating as a bit of a chore anyway so am happy to just get cooked whatever.

What does annoy me though is looking in the fridge and seeing just vegetables, I don't know what the hell to do if I just want a snack, I said this to him and he sent all weekend making me snacks like vegan brownies, so not going to complain!

He doesn't try and push it on me though, doesn't really need to though as I don't really care what I eat and if I go elsewhere or out I will eat meat if I fancy it.

Tell him that he is making you want meat more just so you can get some control back, so if he really wants you stop eating these carcinogenic foods then he should just stop talking about them all the time and you might take to them all by yourself.....might buy you some lecture free time a least!

Leave him to it. I hate evangelist eaters of any kind, vegan, paleos, vegetarian, raw foodies, etc. Tell him you'll look into it if you want to, but you don't. Why can't people let other's live? DP would murder me if I tried to get him to become a veggie, he likes bacon bits too much grin

I'm a vegetarian. DP isn't. He eats mostly veggie but the only thing I ask is that he warn me if he's cooking bacon or fish so that I can leave the room! The smell of both makes me feel queasy. We lived with two vegans and their 2yo for three/four months at one point. They had the most boring diet I've ever seen. Pasta, ketchup, tofu sausage and peas. Every. Single. Night. The Mum wondered if he was getting all of the right nutrients. I tried to explain to her that he needed a more varied diet but she didn't really get it. She also insisted that the Dad take up veganism when he moved over here or he couldn't be with her and their son hmm

I can't find the China Study for free anywhere though confused Only something from the Four Hour Work Week guy stating it's a bunch of tosh.

veganvenelope Mon 25-Feb-13 15:50:16

'he should be ashamed and embarrassed of being this gullible, and so ignorant about science.

he is a member of a species which is designed to be omnivorous. If he wants to eat differently he needs to ensure that he gets the right nutrients. Without using food supplements which are not 'natural'. Let him get on with it as long as he cooks his own food. If the sight of a chicken upsets him, he needs to grow up.'

specialsubject, I don't say this lightly, you should be ashamed of how deeply, deeply stupid and ignorant you sound. Your post is the most utterly ignorant and uneducated thing I have ever read on mumsnet. Are you honestly this dense, not to mention uncaring, about most things?

Imagine making a choice about your diet that shows you care about your health, and animal welfare! How shameful. OP, you should be proud of your husband. A vegan diet is one of the healthiest on the planet.

Sadly, as evidenced on this thread, most meat eaters will desperately cling on their 'belief' that humans should eat meat and that the little cows and lambs they eat frolic about in a pretty green field before trotting off to the lovely slaughterhouse where a kind man gently puts a bolt through their head. It's about as real as Santa, but admitting that would mean facing the truth about the absolute horror that goes into the meat and dairy that we consume. Far easier to label vegans freaks and weirdos. Even though you're the ones stuffing dead animals and their produce in your mouths.

Oh, I forgot. We're meant to eat meat, because we always have done. There are lots of things that humans used to do, because it was necessary, that we don't do any more. We don't think it's ok for husbands to rape their wives, or for white people to enslave blacks. We move on, and progress as humans. But some people insist in remaining cavemen, and insisting we 'need' meat. We don't. Educate yourselves.

Some of the worlds healthiest, strongest athletes are vegans. You do not need meat or dairy to be healthy, and it can make you incredibly unhealthy. There is nothing you can't get in a vegan diet, except for vitamin b12 which can be taken in supplement form, and plenty of shit you can get from a meat eating diet that vegans rarely suffer from - heart disease, types of cancer, and other disorders. If people just had the courage to find out where their food actually comes from, and what it's doing to them they'd be far less quick to call vegans, weirdos. But they prefer to sling pathetic insults at the few people who do choose to stick to their principles, and who know that we have absolutely no right as a species to inflict pain and suffering on another species just for our own enjoyment - because, as I said, we have no need to eat meat and dairy.

There is so much you can eat as a vegan, and in the five years I have been one I have never felt so energetic and healthy. I do not miss meat or dairy at all. It incenses me to see the mind blowing ignorance around veganism though.

veganvenelope Mon 25-Feb-13 15:51:31

Confused, are you serious?
'Why can't people let other's live?'

Why can't you let animals live, instead of deciding they should die so you can stuff their chopped up corpses in your gob? I have no problem with how others live their lives, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. But as a meat eater you are supporting appalling cruelty and suffering.

I am a vegetarian, I stated that in my post confused

You're contradicting yourself massively there. I think people should let others live, in context to what is being discussed here of course. If they want to eat meat, then so be it.

Oh, have you taken offense to me saying that the vegan's I lived with had a boring diet? Because they did, I'm sure even you can see that pasta, tofu sausages, ketchup and peas every night is boring. I didn't say every vegan had a boring diet hmm DP and I eat vegan 4/5 days a week coincidentally enough, we have a very interesting diet if I say so myself!

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 25-Feb-13 16:08:59

veganvenelope there is no use ranting about people educating themselves. Most people just don't care enough, and that's the truth, even if they do know.

SonOfAradia Mon 25-Feb-13 16:10:31

plenty of shit you can get from a meat eating diet that vegans rarely suffer from - heart disease, types of cancer, and other disorders.

The Masai have a diet derived almost exclusively from animal protein (milk and meat from their cattle), yet are very healthy and suffer from very low rates of heart disease, cancer etc.

Things are never as simple as they seem.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 25-Feb-13 16:13:44

In fact they drink milk mixed with blood.

SonOfAradia Mon 25-Feb-13 16:19:10

Indeed. It's the processed crap we eat that gets us, not the meat.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 16:24:11

Nothing wrong with looking out for one's health, but unfortunately he has got it wrong.

Give him a copy of the Meat Fix and that will make him understand where he has gone wrong.

www.independent.ie/lifestyle/books-arts/review-food-the-meat-fix-by-john-nicholson-26843253.html

HecateWhoopass Mon 25-Feb-13 16:37:59

re the friend, if there is a possibility of a mental health issue then your husband is doing him a HUGE disservice by buying into it. He's validating it for this man, making his thoughts seem more rational for being shared. If that makes any sense. X agrees with me... We think...

Perhaps your husband should have a chat with this man's wife? See how he's doing?

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 16:39:38

'he's now on Skype with his paranoid mate and they're discussing the evils of that fake meat...what's it called...you know soy stuff.'

He is right about soy, but soy is what they tell you is good for you.

They tell you meat is bad and they want you to reduce your meat consumption. They tell you it will help "save the planet". If his friend is a conspiracy theorist, he will be aware that this is bunkum, and that therefore meat is good.

www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/apr/13/less-meat-prevent-climate-change

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 16:43:11

Ask his friend if he believes in climate change? If he does, then he hasn't got a clue and he needs to start learning the ropes before he believes what they tell him.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 25-Feb-13 16:53:04

Perhaps you mean man made climate change as opposed to climate change per sé claig? Given that only a fool would disagree with sea surface temperature increases in the data gathered since the 1930s in the continuous plankton survey?

Short digression.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 16:56:09

His friend calls himself a conspiracy theorist. Any conspiracy theorist worthy of the name knows that what they want you to believe is not what you should believe for your health.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:02:06

If his friend doesn't wise up he will soon be following their advice and eating ants in order to "save the planet". Tell him to stop reading the Guardian and start reading some real info

www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/jan/22/future-of-food-john-vidal

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:08:16

His mate will start believeing this type of stuff mentioned in the Guardian article

'Not only are many bugs rich in protein, low in fat and cholesterol and high in calcium and iron, but insect farms need little space. Environmentally, they beat conventional farms, too. The creatures are far better at converting plant biomass into edible meat than even our fastest growing livestock, they emit fewer greenhouse gases and they can thrive on paper, algae and the industrial wastes that would normally be thrown away.'

Ask him straight if he thinks that that is better than cows which eat grass?

SonOfAradia Mon 25-Feb-13 17:09:24

Insects don't fart.

HTH.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:09:37

Tell him not to believe what they want him to swallow, but to use his common sense.

SonOfAradia Mon 25-Feb-13 17:10:17

Next you'll be telling us the Moon Landings never happened.

countrykitten Mon 25-Feb-13 17:12:19

claig most beef cattle never see the light of day and do not have the idyllic existence you presume that they do.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:17:20

countrykitten, you are right. There are GMO elements in some animal feed and the conditions they are kept in are not optimal for health and that is all wrong. But that doesn't mean that meat per se is bad, as is often claimed, and that the alternatives that they recommend are good.

'Now here he was in later life, a clean-living veggie who avoided all that nasty processed stuff and he was overweight and suffering from a variety of undiagnosable and extremely unpleasant stomach conditions.

Fed up with the mantra spouted by the NHS, he began to do his own research and realised what he was missing most was. . . meat.

Certain vital vitamins and compounds are only available from meat, he learned, while an over-reliance on soy products can take a catastrophic physical and mental toll on a person.

So he and his partner decided to do something they hadn't done for the guts of three decades -- eat meat.'

www.independent.ie/lifestyle/books-arts/review-food-the-meat-fix-by-john-nicholson-26843253.html

MooseBeTimeForCoffee Mon 25-Feb-13 17:18:53

Sounds like he has Orthorexia

countrykitten Mon 25-Feb-13 17:19:31

Interesting. It is only recently that I realised how bad soya stuff is to eat and for the environment. Horrible stuff.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:24:05

countrykitten, excellent Guardian article about soya, which has often been promoted as a wonder food, while red meat is discouraged by many of the "experts".

www.guardian.co.uk/news/2006/jul/25/food.foodanddrink

LentilAsAnything Mon 25-Feb-13 17:26:12

ConfusedPixie, if you are vegetarian, you are still responsible for countless lost lives. The dairy industry kills off their male calves, which are born because to keep mama lactating, like us, they need to be giving birth. Not only that, dairy cows are killed off after abiut five years, once they are spent, whereas left to their own devices, they will live to about 25 years.

MrsMushroom Mon 25-Feb-13 17:28:37

We've just had bean burgers. I made them. The DDs loved them. DH can have his when he gets in.

II have been given some really interesting links on this trhead and lots of things to think about....thank you to all those who took the time to add links.

Dh won't get overweight Claig...he couldn't...not eating the way he does. I've lost weight too...the house has no processed things at all...I do buy cereal bars...but might start making them.

We have a share in an allotment so much of our veg will soon be what we've grown...it would be amazing to reduce our food bill that much....the DDs will still eat meat if they want but I'm coming to a place where I may become vegatarian I think...I couldn't leave cheese or milk...I love them.

weegiemum Mon 25-Feb-13 17:30:54

veganventelop could you please name the "healthiest, strongest" athletes who are vegan?

Iirc the fastest man on earth is addicted to chicken nuggets. Doesn't seem t have slowed him down much!

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 25-Feb-13 17:32:04

Yes but it's not like cattle would be wondering round living free, varied and happy lives were it not for the dairy industry. They wouldn't be alive at all, let alone for 25 years.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:33:17

MrsMushroom, research it first and read some books which give the opposite point of view as well as the one that is pushed, Then make your mind up.

LadyClariceCannockMonty Mon 25-Feb-13 17:34:06

If he cooks for himself I wouldn't see that as a problem.

Being nagged about how you should go vegan, and cats-bum-mouth type behaviour like asking you to cover up meat, though, is maddening. I know vegans who pointedly and with an air of martyrdom open the window or leave the room if there's a hint of meat in there, and vegans who eat what they want, will share a room/dinner table with meat and meat-eaters and get on with it.

Guess which ones I find more irritating. smile

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 25-Feb-13 17:37:35

weegiemum

www.greatveganathletes.com

There's never going to be loads because they make up such a small percentage of the population.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:39:03

A good book that gives a different view to the one pushed by the "experts", and advocates our grandmothers' diets is

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3230846/Healthy-food-Should-we-be-eating-more-fat.html

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 17:39:27

weegiemum - there is an iron man who is vegan - one is rip esselstyn

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 17:40:17

claig - why would you go to a celeb or jorno for diet advise?

hopkinette Mon 25-Feb-13 17:40:27

I know you don't have a lot of free time for reading, OP, but I do think this discussion of the China study is worth working your way though if you can. It's interesting and I like the way she writes.

hopkinette Mon 25-Feb-13 17:43:14

weegiemum Scott Jurek is a very successful ultramarathoner who has been vegan since 1999.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:43:40

'He and Monica break every single diet diktat that has been trumpeted as “healthy eating”. And yet, here they are, trim, fit and full of beans, albeit metaphorical ones. How on earth do they do it? And where are the rest of us – eating piles of fruit and veg, and steering clear of cholesterol-laden butter – going wrong? After all, we’ve never been subject to so much education on good dietary practice, and yet prey to so many illnesses, ranging from diabetes to heart disease.

“Most people are eating in a way that is unnatural to us as a species,” says Barry, who holds a doctorate in nutritional science and has just written a book called Trick and Treat: How Healthy Eating Is Making Us Ill. “We’re a carnivorous species – our gut is identical to that of a big cat. Yet we’re encouraged to eat foods that have been padded out with modified starch and vegetable oils, and complex carbohydrates such as bread, pasta and rice, which have all been labelled healthy – but not the fatty meat that our body actually recognises.”

hopkinette Mon 25-Feb-13 17:45:07

What types of cancer does veganism specifically protect against, veganenvelope?

zipzap Mon 25-Feb-13 17:46:51

Tell him that he's actually fallen for a conspiracy theory double bluff.

That the reason he is looking and feeling all pale and pasty and unhealthy and [insert whatever you can here to make him wonder what you know, even if he claims he is feeling healthy] is because of the veganism.

This is because 'they' (the people creating the conspiracies) want to neutralise the effect of the people that notice the conspiracy theories and bring them to our attention, they want to minimise these people.

Veganism does this very well - it's a group that is already seen as being a little crackpot and unorthodox. Plus those eating a vegan diet can be pretty unhealthy and feel pretty rubbish so it reduces the chance of them being able to actively promote or draw attention to their theories.

OK so I know that being vegan is not necessarily unhealthy, but there are also plenty of reports around to show that pretty much anything is unhealthy. And that it is also healthy (chocolate, red wine spring to mind grin) . But being drawn into believing conspiracy theories is not good - especially as others have said when it comes above your own family. So fight fire with fire and just be very dismissive of him falling for the beginner's conspiracy theory and not seeing the bigger one behind it, and maybe it will start to get him questioning beyond the basic box he is in at the moment.

Oh and leave the chicken out too!

(If he'd gone veggie or vegan for a good reason then I would support my dh quite happily, even if it was a pain. but this sounds like it is something completely different and that if the report had told him to sleep with his feet on his pillow and cavort naked in front of the full moon after eating a large steak he'd have done that too, it's not the vegan-ism per se that's the problem, which is why I would feel, like you, significantly less than sympathetic!)

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 17:51:16

'claig - why would you go to a celeb or jorno for diet advise?'

I believe in folk wisdom not paid for "experts" and mouthpieces of food corporations or governments who mention "five a day" and excess salt but never discuss soya, aspartame or genetically modified organisms.

I believe in traditional wisdom and knowledge passed down over centuries. I believe in the natural diets of the 100 year olds on mediterranean islands, not in the "scientists" who tell us that insects are healthier than meat and that they also help us "save the planet".

LentilAsAnything Mon 25-Feb-13 17:57:00

claig, soya is fine. It is certainly a whole heap better for us than dairy.
Some links for you.
zenhabits.net/soy/
And
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/01/anti-soya-brigade-ignore-scaremongering/print
In a nutshell, follow the money!

LentilAsAnything Mon 25-Feb-13 18:01:02

MrsMushroom, I am thrilled you are being open-minded about this.
I have a stack of collated vegan stuff on Pinterest, should you want more info. Lots of links to health articles, information about the meat and dairy industry, and some information about the impact of eating meat and dairy on our environment.
pinterest.com/AMaverickMother/veganforlife-vv/ Hth.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:01:37

Lentils, the majority of "scientists" etc believe soya is good. That is where the money is, in the fields with genetically modified soya which is added to 60% of our processed food.

There is nothing more important than your health. Research it and if you still think soya is good, then OK.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 25-Feb-13 18:02:07

Blimey claig, you're, like, so at one with nature grin

LentilAsAnything Mon 25-Feb-13 18:05:30

I've also got lots of vegan athletes on this board, along with a few other vegan slebs. pinterest.com/AMaverickMother/veganrollcall/

You might also want to recommend a vegan fitness forum for your husband, if he hasn't already discovered it: www.veganfitness.net/index.php.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:06:09
PessaryPam Mon 25-Feb-13 18:07:05

claig countrykitten, excellent Guardian article about soya, which has often been promoted as a wonder food, while red meat is discouraged by many of the "experts".

www.guardian.co.uk/news/2006/jul/25/food.foodanddrink

This is incredible. I am gobsmacked that all our food standards agencies have not highlighted this to the population.
Some extracts
He calculated that babies fed exclusively on soya formula could receive the estrogenic equivalent, based on body weight, of five birth control pills a day.
and
It turns out that unfermented soya did play one role in traditional Asian diets - it was eaten by monks to dampen down their libido.)

LentilAsAnything Mon 25-Feb-13 18:07:23

claig, soya is indeed in lots of food, and fed to livestock too. It doesn't make much difference to soy producers if we eat it directly, or via cows. But the dairy industry, wow, do they have a lot to lose if we start eating it directly.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:07:42

'Blimey claig, you're, like, so at one with nature '

Exactly. Real nature, not their global warming and other scare stories.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:10:42

Lentil, in Europe we have eaten dairy for millenia, but we have not eaten soy. Now the big agrochemical firms and food producers use soy as a cheap protein substitute in our fodd and spray it with all types of chemicals to improve its yield.

If it ain't broke don't fix it, stick to what has worked for humans for millenia, don't experment with public health to make money.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 25-Feb-13 18:12:22

Ah, a climate change denier.

Thing is claic it is happening. I mentioned the sea surface thing earlier. Whether it's caused by CO2 emissions is another question.

And who is "their"?

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:13:14

'He calculated that babies fed exclusively on soya formula could receive the estrogenic equivalent, based on body weight, of five birth control pills a day'

Pessary, a real conspiracy theorist understands exactly why. It is all linked - global warming, "saving the planet", cutting down on meat and oestrogen and birth pills.

limitedperiodonly Mon 25-Feb-13 18:16:21

thanks for that article hopkinette

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:17:13

'And who is "their"?'

They and their are teh people in control of our lives, our health and our banks. The ones responsible for regulating the safety of our food and our banks. The ones above teh regulators, the ones who appoint the regulators and the ones who decide on what will be and don't publish their decisions for us to see.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Mon 25-Feb-13 18:21:06

Ah. Thanks for clarifying.

countrykitten Mon 25-Feb-13 18:22:15

I had to stop eating soya produce after being diagnosed with endometriosis and realising that as a lifelong vegetarian who drank soya milk and ate soya 'meat' that this foodstuff could have contributed to my illness. Not impressed.

I now have a mostly vegan diet and I drink almond milk which is amazing stuff and very good for you.

I am not anti-meat eating in itself (and I do buy the argument that we are omnivorous because we clearly are) but I am anti-cruelty and this is my stumbling block. Even organically raised, well treated farm animals meet terrible ends in dreadful slaughterhouses (even ones that deal with organic livestock) where cruelty is rife. Sadly the HFW footage we see on C4 is not the reality for most animals. I wish that it was but I cannot have all that suffering and cruelty on my conscience just for the sake of meat and milk.

LentilAsAnything Mon 25-Feb-13 18:26:30

claig, we have not farmed on this level ever before. It is unsustainable. It is destroying our planet. It was never meant to be like this.
Time to evolve.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:28:58

'The aim of hormone treatments is to limit or stop the production of oestrogen in your body. This is because oestrogen encourages endometriosis to grow and shed. Without exposure to oestrogen, the endometriosis tissue can be reduced, which helps to ease your symptoms.'

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Endometriosis/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Soy is high in oestrogen.

Why oestrogen? Because of what Pessary quoted.

countrykitten Mon 25-Feb-13 18:32:37

Soy is packed full of oestrogen and I have been eating loads of it for years...endo nutritionists tend to agree that it should be left well alone as it can really aggravate the disease. It is bloody awful stuff.

I can't work out if you are disagreeing or not?!

countrykitten Mon 25-Feb-13 18:35:57

PP thanks for the link.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:35:59

I've got the book but haven't had time to read it, so can't argue knowledgeably on it, but it may be worth checking out.

'Lierre Keith is a former vegan/vegetarian who bowed out after twenty long years of poor health and paralyzing moral paradoxes.

And that’s the crux of her argument – that modern industrial agriculture is wanton destruction. Grain-based, vegetarian agriculture is even worse, because it attempts to eliminate a crucial player in the normal life cycle of the planet. Animals, which provide manure, calcium, and other nutrients for the soil, have to be part of the equation. Whenever a culture turns to a grain-based agricultural system, these same problems arise. Annual grain crops killed the American prairie and, for the vegans out there, they kill the millions of animals, bugs, and birds that rely on specific ecosystems to survive. The vegan’s soy burger has nary an animal part, but the machines that worked the soybean fields were greased with the blood of a thousand organisms. The vegetarian’s wheat crops feed millions, but robs the land of nutrients and destroys the top soil necessary for life.

'Animals, which provide manure, calcium, and other nutrients for the soil'

but they say that these natural things are harming the 'planet'

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:37:38

Sorry, book is 'The Vegetarian Myth' bu former vegetarian Lierre Keth

www.marksdailyapple.com/vegetarian-myth-review/#axzz2Lw9tWl58

PolkadotCircus Mon 25-Feb-13 18:37:43

My sil is like this,eating out is a joy-not.

Last thing was black pepper being carcinogenic.

I actually think she has other issues which is manifesting itself in food obsessions.

Oh and cherry tomatoes give her migraines,not normal tomatoes just cherry tomatoes.

Best night ever was when I made a homemade veggie lasagna 9 month pg with huge twins,she stalked me in the kitchen to check I wasn't using cherry toms but forgot to check if the Parmesan was veggie-it wasn't ooopsie!grin

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 18:39:33

I agree with you countrykitten. I am saying that conspiracy theorists believe they know why it is being pushed.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 19:09:56

Cows' manure and farts are harming the planet, they say, but genetically modified food ndoesn't concern the bigwigs and leaders and spinners and shakers. You couldn't make it up!

countrykitten Mon 25-Feb-13 19:15:23

Got it claig. Thanks for the clarification!

limitedperiodonly Mon 25-Feb-13 19:23:35

pp thanks for that link too.

Things like that and also on palm oil and other food additives are really interesting. I was going to say useful, but they're not useful considering their ubiquitiousness and people's reliance on foods containing them.

I get pissed off by the smugness of people who like to blame others for eating things with which they don't agree, rather than truthfully saying that these are the things you maybe shouldn't be eating and this is why.

Lying about the content of food is always wrong.

Lentil: It doesn't bother me too much tbh. I buy organic, I buy local and I rarely have dairy. But I have no interest in being vegan for my own personal reasons. I am not vegetarian for ethical reasons, or global reasons, or any reason but because it suits me. I would eat (good quality) meat if I wanted too but I don't. I do the best I can to source organic and local products and that's all I'll do.
& Vegan specifically said that I 'stuffed corpses into my gob' which is actually quite harsh even if it were true imo!

There is a book called nourishing traditions full of very fatty recipes based on the diets our grandparents would have had, it has loads of really interesting recipes in it, full of fatty things (just saw claigs link about the grandparents generation of food).

Personally, I think that diet is a very personal thing. Some people just could not be meat etaters, whilst some couldn't be vegan. This could be for a whole array of reasons, but at the end of the day it is personal choice.
I also think that the standards in the meat/dairy industry are scarily low, and even organic isn't amazing but for now it's the best we'll get in big shops. I don't like how we rely on the same few animals for all of our meat/dairy, we should be looking at a variety of options, not just sheep, pig and cow.

limitedperiodonly Mon 25-Feb-13 19:38:26

And the core issue is about someone in a relationship imposing their view, right or wrong, on the relationship.

Whenever people do that, it's not a good thing.

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 21:53:59

Claig
I believe in traditional wisdom and knowledge passed down over centuries. I believe in the natural diets of the 100 year olds on mediterranean islands, not in the "scientists" who tell us that insects are healthier than meat and that they also help us "save the planet".

I take it then you don't use the NHS? or see a gp who uses modern medicine and will tell you which foods are healthier and which foods to avoid based on government guide lines etc and the same for the medicine in hospitals being based around those same guide lines

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 22:00:26

I use doctors and the NHS for medicine, but not for advice on food.

I don't think nutrasweet, aspartame, high fructose corn syrup, transfats, soya and GM food are good for me, but I do believe that butter, eggs, bacon, red meat and red wine are.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 22:02:15

' which foods to avoid based on government guide lines etc'

I don't care what John Gummer said about beefburgers, I make my own mind up.

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 22:04:10
claig Mon 25-Feb-13 22:04:55

I tend to agree with the former vegetarian and vegan, John Nicholson, in his book 'The Meat Fix'

'Fed up with the mantra spouted by the NHS, he began to do his own research and realised what he was missing most was. . . meat.'

potsyandco Mon 25-Feb-13 22:07:08

YABU. The China Study is excellent and having a vegan diet is common sense. Better for health and better for the planet.

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 22:10:36

so claig you use jornos and celebs to give you advice on the food you put in your body, but wouldn't get a doctor to give you this advice

but you would go to a doctor to get medicine

seems odd that you would go to a doctor to get medicine but not advise on how to keep your body healthy

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 22:17:57

That's because I don't think doctors know much about food, they mainly follow government guidelines - the ones that used to tell us that we should avoid eating too many eggs due to cholesterol and avoid saturated fats and avoid butter and full fat milk, when the fats contain much of the vitamin content.

They don't say don't eat GM food, and the Guardian reported on how scientists will help us "save the planet" by growing meat from stem cells and telling us that insects are better for us than meat. No thanks, let the doctors eat that, I prefer free range organic meat.

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 22:23:52

Doctors of course follow guide lines on food and medicine from the government - so why would you use doctors for either food or medicine advice?

StuntGirl Mon 25-Feb-13 22:24:02

You sound as obssesive and unhinged as the OP's husband over food claig

ivykaty44 Mon 25-Feb-13 22:26:55

John Nicholson has some rave revues on amazon for his book grin the revues seem to give him poor ratings for lack of any type of fact or research

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 22:28:00

StuntGirl, I eat what is healthy. You can eat the soya, the GM, the aspartame etc. I check the labels. You are free to be ignorant and eat what you want.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 22:31:02

'so why would you use doctors for either food or medicine advice?'

Because I don't believe everything doctors say. I didn't take the swine flu shot, just as many doctors didn't either, even though many doctors were urged to do so.

midastouch Mon 25-Feb-13 22:59:38

He is very strange (sorry i know he is your DH) im a veggie, but dont bother with organic my DP is a meat eater i cant stand the smell of it but its what he wishes to eat who am i to tell him what he should eat. The only argument we have is my DC eating meat he has a problem with me tellin DS that that sausage used to be a pig

midastouch Mon 25-Feb-13 23:05:02

claig so what is wrong with soya? ive never actually thought about what it is. I agree with you about the aspartame i brings me out in a rash.

claig Mon 25-Feb-13 23:12:17

midas, read this excellent Guardian article that I linked to earlier on in the thread

Should we worry about soya in our food

Of course, much of the official and food industry advice is that soya is a good source of protein. Research both sides and make up your mind. If you doubt its good qualities, begin to ask yourself why it is promoted. Begin to understand the big picture which points to the reason behind it.

Speaking as a lifelong vegetarian who eats (mostly) wholefoods cooked from scratch and is still 2 stone overweight, there is some god-awful rubbish being spouted about food, health and nutrition on this thread. It really ain't that simple, folks.

The Masai have a diet derived almost exclusively from animal protein (milk and meat from their cattle), yet are very healthy and suffer from very low rates of heart disease, cancer etc. hmm

The reason they 'suffer from very low rates of heart disease, cancer etc' is because they die years before they could normally expect to develop these diseases. The Maasai have the worst life expectancy in the modern world. Life expectancy is 45 years for women and 42 years for men. African researchers report that, historically, Maasai rarely lived beyond age 60. Adult mortality figures on the Kenyan Maasai show that they have a 50% chance of dying before the age of 59.

nothing wrong with veganism, lizard people on the other hand..?

HorribleMother Tue 26-Feb-13 07:27:39

John Nicolson, omg, omg! I wrote a long review of his book on my blog. He was (is) a zealot who has swung from one extreme to another. His book is one entire long rant (funny to read).

When he was full on Vegan (20 yrs) he would have extolled virtues of veganism in just as evangelically strong terms, especially after just 1-5 yrs as a vegan. But after 18 months of improved health from heavy meat diet he decided that was Nirvana and writes a long book to say as much (anyone see the irony?)

Nicolson makes some good points but his obvious extremist nature undermines most of it. I could say tonnes more but shall refrain.

HorribleMother Tue 26-Feb-13 08:01:10

I think I need (itch, itch) a few things inspired by that Guardian article that Claic linked to.

1) Oilseed rape is generally produced by the same process as Soy oil/soy products. (Yup, good ol' canola oil). Like Soya, oilseed rape seeds were inedible/indigestible until special varieties were developed. They rely heavily on hexanes to produce (so do almost all "vegetable oils", incidentally). So you are going to have to weigh up the merits of relative oils before condemning soya especially.

2) As article points out, in North America cottonseed oil was heavily preferred (30-60 yrs ago) until Canola took over (& maybe more latterly soya). The rumour was that because cotton was not a mainly food crop it was more heavily exposed to pesticides than other types of veg oil, I've never known if that was a fair claim. But anyway, it's not like we've moved from lovely fresh oils to something horrible; it's been horrible for a very long time.

3) Processed foods are what's affected mostly; don't forget that bread is a processed food.

4) Organic processed foods are not liable to all the same problems; the oils have to be produced by cold- or mechanical means. But I'm not sure about organic soya, I think it might have to be hexane-free methods produced, too.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 08:17:43

Horrible, stick to olive oil as used in Mediterranean diets.

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 12:06:26

I avoid soya as much as possible due to it being bad for thyroid function, I have hypothyroidism.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Tue 26-Feb-13 12:06:58

Even the Fail is running something on it today.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 13:18:14

Thanksfor the heads up, Ariel.
Very good article in the Mail and mentions what AmberLeaf said about thyroid

Meanwhile, there have been suggestions that, far from being protective, eating too much soya protein can be harmful because of its hormonal effect.

In 2003, the UK government’s Committee on Toxicity identified three groups where evidence suggested there might be a potential risk from consuming large amounts of soya: babies fed on soya-based formula, people with an under-active thyroid and women diagnosed with breast cancer.

Soya beans contain naturally occurring toxins. These include phytic acid, which reduces our ability to absorb essential minerals, such as iron and zinc, and might therefore cause mineral deficiencies, and trypsin inhibitors, which impair the body’s capacity to digest protein.

But the industrial nature of soya protein manufacture also raises concerns.

While some soya foods, such as tofu, miso, soya milk and yoghurt, are lightly processed, pure soya proteins — the sort you might find in a veggie sausage or vegan cheese — are commonly extracted by washing soya flour in acid in aluminium tanks.

This raises the possibility that aluminium, which is bad for the brain and nervous system, can leach into the product.

Another potential concern is the chemical solvent hexane — a component in glue and cement — is used to extract the oil from soya beans. It is known to poison the human nervous system.

Through repeated exposure, people can develop neurological problems similar to those experienced by solvent abusers.

The soya industry claims only trace residues of hexane find their way into the finished product.

Processing also frees up glutamic acid from the soya, a substance that can trigger allergic reactions.

Soya is one of the eight most common food allergens, according to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

A further issue with many soya products is not the soya itself, but what is added to it.

As soya protein is pale, odourless and almost taste-free, many manufacturers rely on sweeteners, artificial flavourings, salt and colourings to make their products more appealing.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2284435/Horsemeat-scandal-Think-soyas-safer-choice-meat-Think-again.html

Also a good article on olive oil and mediterranean diet in today's Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2284523/Eating-Mediterranean-diet-cuts-heart-stroke-risk-third.html

StillSeekingSpike Tue 26-Feb-13 13:28:08

'Very good article in the Mail'

See- that for me immediately destroys any argument wink

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 13:36:31

'See- that for me immediately destroys any argument'

But can't you see that that is exactly what they want you think, so that you read the Guardian and start believing that eating insects is healthier than eating meat and will help you "save the planet"?

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Tue 26-Feb-13 13:37:04

I'm afraid that's true.

It is actually just a badly paraphrased version of the original.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Tue 26-Feb-13 13:38:46

Claig, I'm absolutely certain you don't need to be worrying about any MNers rushing earnestly down to the insect shop because they have been duped by the government into doing so.

Actually some people in Africa (can't remember exactly where) make very tasty looking burgers out of the insects swarming over the lake. They BBQ them.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 13:42:18

Stop reading their tall tale about eating insects that will make you quail, written by cabs for hire up for sale, don't continue to fail, seek the truth that is on the nail, open up your Daily Mail!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 26-Feb-13 13:45:58

I don't think soya is all bad is it? My understanding was that that the traditional preparation of soy ie tofu and tempeh removed many of those dangers.

I think the issue is of so used as a cheap filler, where it is processed very differently.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 13:47:12

'Actually some people in Africa (can't remember exactly where) make very tasty looking burgers out of the insects swarming over the lake. They BBQ them.'

Yes they do, but some people want us to ditch meat and do the same, they tell us and sell us that that will "save the planet" and that cows' methane is to blame. Their stories are always the same and they propagate them without shame for pecuniary reward and wide acclaim.

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 13:54:34

There are plenty of articles about the dangers of soya if the Daily mail link puts you off!

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Tue 26-Feb-13 13:59:34

I'm puzzled by the way you are constantly putting save the planet in inverted commas in every context. I have never been told to eat insects to "save the planet".

It almost seems as though you regard any environmentally responsible action as risible, leaving aside insects for the moment. It is actually true that eating less meat is good for the environment were everyone to do it, simply because animal herds take up far more room and use more energy that vegetable or cereal crops. It's a more efficient way of using the land for the same amount of nutrition.

Or does pointing that out make me a gullible, tree and bunny hugging "saver of the planet"?

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 14:01:51

On the saving the planet note, is it true that natural vegetation is cleared to make way for massive soya crops?

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 14:02:13

...and does it happen for soya any more than other crops~?

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 14:02:27

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, in Asia soya products are produced in such a way as to reduce or eliminate the antinutrients, but that is not true of many of the soya-based products used in the West today

Read this Guardian article

www.guardian.co.uk/news/2006/jul/25/food.foodanddrink

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 14:11:24

'On the saving the planet note, is it true that natural vegetation is cleared to make way for massive soya crops?'

They say they want to "save the planet" (in quotes because that is what they say), they say they believe in "sustainability", but the soya fields are not "sustainable" and they tell us meat production is not "sustainable" for teh future of the "planet"

'In many ways it is the perfect place to grow unsustainable soy. Ruled by despotic dictators for centuries

...

In the last year the amount of land planted with soy has grown to a record 2.6 million hectares, most of which is GM, leading to claims of deforestation, violent land disputes and the ‘poisoning’ of local communities.

Already it is estimated that 90 per cent of the Atlantic Rainforest in Paraguay has been lost to make way for crops, taking with it thousands of unique plants species, hundreds of rare birds and endangered animals like the jaguar.

There is evidence that soy production is now moving into the vast ‘Gran Chaco’ in the north of the country, the home of some of the last uncontracted tribes on Earth. The Natural History Museum are currently planning an expedition to the area in the hope of finding hundreds of undiscovered species before it is too late.

Its not just animals that suffer, the forests were also home to humans. Groups of Guarani people claim they have been driven from their land by the soy farmers. They can be seen camping in pathetic tarpaulin shacks in the town squares or on the road side.

www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/8391748/GM-soy-The-invisible-ingredient-poisoning-children.html

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 26-Feb-13 14:18:08

That's an interesting link Claig. It looks like soy j's an issued for on veggies too given the amount of it in animal feed!

Confirmed what I thought though, traditionally made products and edamame are not so bad. After all, according to the DM most thins give you cancer...

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 14:18:19

Bloody hell, I love soy. Can any one tell me (haven't read all the links) if the three forms I eat it in are bad.

A) Tofu - four times a week
B) Soya sauce -four times a week
C) Steamed Edamame - infrequently, but copious quantities each time as I love the damn thing

sad

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 14:19:37

Ok, cross-posted With Itsallgoingtobefine

Think my diet is ok smile whew!

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 14:20:43

I love soy milk too, but will switch to almond milk instead.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 14:24:46

'That's an interesting link Claig. It looks like soy j's an issued for on veggies too given the amount of it in animal feed!'

Yes it is an issue for all of us, since soya is added to 60% of our processed food. It is in bread and biscuits and cakes and cereals. It is hard to escape it. But you won't hear the "five-a-day" brigade mentioning it, just as they don'y mention aspartame and many other things. Why?

BOF Tue 26-Feb-13 14:25:30

I think the obvious solution is to eat the lizards.

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 14:33:36

flatbread, take some time to read this Guardian article

www.guardian.co.uk/news/2006/jul/25/food.foodanddrink

ppeatfruit Tue 26-Feb-13 14:34:36

flatbread if you eat organically grown soya and buy from firms like Alpro which is grown in Belgium ( I think) you're okay.

I try to avoid eating palm oil which is difficult, it seems to be in everything, because it is also doing untold damage to tropical forests.

IMO anything that huge global companies get their mitts on becomes exploitative due to the massive size of their operations ( firmly believe that all countries should try to be self sufficient as much as is possible to avoid this)

AmberLeaf Tue 26-Feb-13 14:36:28

Soya is certainly hidden in lots of things.

claig I think Ive seen that article before or similar, thats what I was thinking of.

VikingLady Tue 26-Feb-13 14:46:43

So, does he believe vegans don't die of anything? And just keep on going?

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 15:33:33

Claig,

Really interesting article, thanks. I usually buy Clearspring soya sauce so will stick with that. Tofu is harder to source as avaiability is limited. I buy either the waitrose brand in UK or from an Asian grocery store in France. So in both cases origins are unclear...I do hope they use non GMO soy.

I am surprised that the Cearsprings guy in the article said they don't eat soy normally in Japan. I thought steamed edamame was a Japanese snack? Atleast I can only get my hands on it in a Japanese restaurant. Is it one of those 'fake' ethnic foods like tikka masala or chop suey?

claig Tue 26-Feb-13 17:19:12

flatbread, I don't eat edamame, but have googled it and you are right that it is used often as an appetizer in Japan, steamed or boiled and often served with salt. Because they are young immature beans, they contain less of teh toxins and antinutrients contained in mature beans. Reading the article again, it may be that the Clearspring guy is talking about mature beans rather than immature ones, but I am not sure.

I looked on clearspring website and I couldn't find any edamame products for sale. Not sure if I missed them though.

"The young green beans, now sold as a fashionable snack, edamame, are lower in oestrogens and antinutrients, though not free of them. But raw mature soya beans contain phytates that prevent mineral absorption and enzyme inhibitors that block the key enzymes we need to digest protein. They are also famous for inducing flatulence.

Christopher Dawson, who owns the Clearspring brand of organic soy sauces, agrees. He lived in Japan for 18 years and his Japanese wife, Setsuko, is a cookery teacher. "I never saw soy beans on the table in Japan - they're indigestible."

Dawson describes the traditional craft method of transforming the soya bean through fermentation, so that its valuable amino acids become available but its antinutrients are tamed."

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 17:37:23

Claig, yes you are right. It is probably ok because the beans are young.

flatbread Tue 26-Feb-13 17:40:46

I usually feel full of beans (pardon the pun) after eating tofu or edamame

The ingredient that gives me heartburn is rapeseed oil. And it is in everything! Yesterday I was in M&S and wanted some hummus. Every single one had rapeseed oil! Even the supposedly extra virgin olive oil one.

Writehand Tue 26-Feb-13 18:23:05

I have a relative who gets incredibly worked up about the environment -- goes round turning off the heating completely as the snow falls and has been known to nearly cause accidents driving in a rather odd way that he insists minimises fuel use. He will rant on for hours when he gets really ill.

He is bipolar, which accounts for the extremism, but due to my experience with him and other people who go nuts about diet or climate change I always have a question in my mind about their mental health.

It's not that, by any means, I disagree or disapprove of caring about either food or climate, it's that this obsessional concentration and the need to lecture others -- together with an obsession about what is entering the body and issues of "purity" in food -- is very often linked to mental health issues, as is a belief in conspiracy theories.

You will know whether this is an issue. Mrs Mushroom -- I may be way off beam.

zipzap Wed 27-Feb-13 00:23:52

slight side track - for anyone wondering about the edaname beans; you can get frozen ones fairly easily these days, albeit pre-podded.

Brought to you by none other than Birds Eye - just along from the frozen peas grin and found in most reasonable size supermarkets. Very nice they are too!

flow4 Wed 27-Feb-13 07:40:55

BOF grin

hopkinette Wed 27-Feb-13 10:53:01

He is bipolar, which accounts for the extremism

What a stupid thing to say.

BeCool Wed 27-Feb-13 10:58:22

His diet sounds pretty good to me.

It's the extreme thinking & lectures which I agree can be bloody annoying.

zipzap Tesco do frozen edamane beans now too - very nice.

PessaryPam Wed 27-Feb-13 11:16:29

ppeatfruit I was about to mention the palm oil thing too. Always there are unintended consequences. The true problem is overpopulation.

ppeatfruit Wed 27-Feb-13 12:15:46

I'm not sure about it being just overpopulation being the true problem (that's an argument used by the global GM companies if globalisation and GM were the answer there would be no starvation) If more people were actually mixed farming in their own countries with crops suited to the specific weather and environment of the particular place and no global companies ripping them off, i've a feeling there would be improvements all round (i may be wrong of course).

LentilAsAnything Wed 27-Feb-13 12:16:33

Gosh, how awful that someone should do some extreme thinking. hmmconfused

If only more people started taking responsibility for the planet (and ourselves), all would be well.

Writehand Wed 27-Feb-13 12:46:44

I wrote, of my relative: He is bipolar, which accounts for the extremism

Hopkinette you replied "What a stupid thing to say" - which is quite unnecessarily rude, particularly when you provide no support for your statement.

Saying bipolar people become extreme isn't at all stupid. It's the voice of experience. If you have lived with bipolar disorder you would know that when the sufferer is "high" one of the main symptoms is extremism: whether it's spending money they haven't got, deciding their food theory will change the world, or ranting on about God, the family recognise this as a symptom.

If you still doubt my explanation, here's what the NHS says:

Bipolar disorder is characterised by extreme mood swings. The mood swings can range from extreme highs (mania) to extreme lows (depression). Episodes of mania and depression can often last for several weeks or more.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 13:16:46

'The true problem is overpopulation'

It is their major concern, and you will often hear about overpopulation reducing the earth's resources and the need to reduce consumption and meat eating (with 'meat free mondays' etc.) in order to 'save the planet' which is under the threat of cataclysmic destruction by 'global warming'.

Sometimes you will hear soy mentioned as a way to help save the planet

Eat Soy Save the Planet

But there are some studies that question soy's effect on human fertility

www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=soybean-fertility-hormone-isoflavones-genistein

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/nov/07/research.health

www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6856974/Soy-baby-formula-ban-call-after-fertility-fear

hopkinette Wed 27-Feb-13 13:20:04

If you have lived with bipolar disorder

I have bipolar disorder.

hopkinette Wed 27-Feb-13 13:21:49

But, I mean, you have a RELATIVE with bipolar disorder, so... I guess your experience and insight trump mine sad

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Wed 27-Feb-13 13:28:34

I would also question the assertion that people who become enthusiastic about sustainability and reducing their impact on their environment are mentally ill confused

ppeatfruit Wed 27-Feb-13 13:41:15

I love those articles about soya and other things like essential oils affecting hormonal norms. They always ignore things like the contraceptive pill in the water supply and dairy consumption that have been known for years as definitely affecting the oestrogen hormone levels in the population e.g. male breasts, early sexual maturity in females etc.

SaggyOldClothCatpuss Wed 27-Feb-13 13:41:43

Love the term 'Vegangelists'! grin

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Wed 27-Feb-13 13:59:51

It is interesting though how much male fertility has dropped and breast cancer rates have increased during the period when soya has been so prevalent in our diets though. As well as the contraceptive pill being in such widespread use.

Though what's the phrase? Coincidence doesn't mean cause, or something?

ppeatfruit Wed 27-Feb-13 14:05:51

My dsis had breast cancer and blamed dairy ( she hadn't touched soya btw.) The Japanese don't seem to have worse problems than the west reproducing though do they?

Writehand Wed 27-Feb-13 14:14:10

My brother is bipolar type 1 and I am bipolar type 2. I was very clear in saying that there's nothing remotely odd about an interest in diet or the environment. However when someone goes completely over the top and starts seriously upsetting the family, particularly when it comes to conspiracy theories and the OP is talking about paranoia (check what she wrote), then yes -- mental illness is a possibility. Check what I wrote. Didn't say it was a diagnosis, just that it was a possibility.

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Wed 27-Feb-13 14:15:35

I think it's the type of soya they eat, ppeatfruit.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 14:17:30
ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 27-Feb-13 14:18:04

Claig
If soya products do decrease fertility, then that makes them doubly good for the planet.

I'm sure I read somewhere that reproducing is the single most unenvironmentally thing you can do...

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 14:19:55

Ariel is right that the Japanese don't generally eat soya as it is placed in our food.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 27-Feb-13 14:22:53

Yes, the hidden soya shouldn't really be called soya, more soya derivatives. Is completely different to traditional soy products.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 14:24:14

'I'm sure I read somewhere that reproducing is the single most unenvironmentally thing you can do...'

Of course you have heard that because that is what they want you to think.

'If soya products do decrease fertility, then that makes them doubly good for the planet.'

Don't fall for their profession of 'saving the planet'. Decreasing fertility is bad for people, but it is what they want in order to maintain more 'resources' for themselves.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 14:39:33

They want to measure your 'carbon footprint', they will tell you that your footprint is too big and that you need a smaller, tighter pair of shoes. You need to make cuts to 'save the planet' is what they will say. Now there is austerity but you ain't seen nothing yet. They want you to cut your meat consumption and begin to switch to food they say is good for the planet, but is it good for you?

Shun meat says UN climate chief

'"I would like governments to set targets for reduction in meat production and consumption," she said.

"That's something that should probably happen at a global level as part of a negotiated climate change treaty, and it would be done fairly, so that people with little meat at the moment such as in sub-Saharan Africa would be able to eat more, and we in the west would eat less."

Dr Pachauri, however, sees it more as an issue of personal choice.

"I'm not in favour of mandating things like this, but if there were a (global) price on carbon perhaps the price of meat would go up and people would eat less," he said.

"But if we're honest, less meat is also good for the health, and would also at the same time reduce emissions of greenhouse gases."


They say they are honest, honest guv.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 14:46:08

The 'carbon' taxes are increasing the price of energy, and our fuel bills rise and rise inexorably. Sonn, we may find our meat prices rise too "if there were a (global) price on carbon perhaps the price of meat would go up and people would eat less"

What do you think we will be eating then? Soya and their meat protein substitutes, and they will say it is healthier than red meat and it has the advantage of "saving the planet".

They have told you about growing meat in labs from stem cells and they have told you how nutritious insects are for you.

Don't you wanna save the planet? Heaven knows they do!

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Wed 27-Feb-13 14:47:56

In fact they want you dead so they can inherit the earth and start a new world order.

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 27-Feb-13 15:00:23

Who's they?confused
Would that be the lizards/

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Wed 27-Feb-13 15:10:12

I don't know.

Ask claig. It's her area of expertise.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 15:19:08

I don't know who the lizards are. Can you explain who they are, LadyBeagles?

ppeatfruit Wed 27-Feb-13 15:21:45

IMO "They" are the fantasies belonging to the journos and news editors of Fox News and the DM etc.grin

Writehand Wed 27-Feb-13 15:22:23

I know a bloke who's into all this lizard business. It's best to smile and nod.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 15:24:04

'Ask claig. It's her area of expertise.'

My area of expertise is healthy eating, climate caatastrophe and current affairs. Lizards and insects are off my radar, although I have read that they claim that insects are more nutritious than meat.

ppeatfruit Wed 27-Feb-13 15:26:48

Yes I would 've agreed about smiling and nodding about the Lizard people until the very dirty business of Saville and all his extremely high level friends (how the fuck did he get away with it?).

ArielThePiraticalMermaid Wed 27-Feb-13 15:27:47

Hmm. Good point about Savile.

<ponder how the believers in Lizard People react to the Silurians in Doctor Who - is it a coded message of some sort etc>

WifeofPie Wed 27-Feb-13 15:51:36

I went vegan for a year after watching Earthlings [it's horrible...don't even watch the trailer]. I was veggie before that and had lots of books, knew how to do it properly etc. Towards the end of my first year with no animal products my hair started falling out, I fractured my pelvis while out for a (short) run one day, my teeth and back were aching constantly and I was hungry all the time. I could eat bowls and bowls of super-healthy bean, veggie, whole grain, nut, avocado, tofu recipes and still feel insatiably hungry ( and I struggled to keep weight on ). It's hard not to get swept up in the idea of a way of eating that prevents animal suffering, helps the environment, is "healthy" and saves you money. It feels like a win-win and at the beginning you feel great so of course you want everyone to switch over to your way of doing things...why wouldn't they?

Ultimately though, being vegan is not for everyone, despite the best of intentions. What changed my mind eventually (besides the obvious health factors) was the fact that plants (vegetables) need soil that is rich in animal remains and waste to grow, there has been no successful vegan culture in the history of the world ever ( vegetarian, yes, vegan no) and a diet that requires you to consume artificial supplements (b12 for example) is surely not meant to be.

I'd be patient with him and explain that he may not realize yet that veganism might not work out in the long run and that he should curb his enthusiasm until he figures out whether it agrees with him or not. And suggest he consider a little egg, fish or dairy....the higher quality protein is especially important for muscle repair and satiety if he's very active.

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 27-Feb-13 16:00:01

Well ok, if not lizards, explain to me who 'they' are.?

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 16:09:25

Explained it further up the thread.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 16:16:18

Very good post, WifeofPie

'What changed my mind eventually (*besides the obvious health factors*) was the fact that plants (vegetables) need soil that is rich in animal remains and waste to grow'

But why do they sell the health benefits and say "But if we're honest, less meat is also good for the health"?

What's it all about, why do they try to scare us with global warming tales of destruction and drought, what are they up to, if only we knew that none of it was true

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 16:20:12

'the fact that plants (vegetables) need soil that is rich in animal remains and waste to grow''

Lierre Keith, a former vegetarian and vegan, has a book on that, called 'The Vegetarian Myth'

'And that’s the crux of her argument – that modern industrial agriculture is wanton destruction. Grain-based, vegetarian agriculture is even worse, because it attempts to eliminate a crucial player in the normal life cycle of the planet. Animals, which provide manure, calcium, and other nutrients for the soil, have to be part of the equation. Whenever a culture turns to a grain-based agricultural system, these same problems arise. Annual grain crops killed the American prairie and, for the vegans out there, they kill the millions of animals, bugs, and birds that rely on specific ecosystems to survive. The vegan’s soy burger has nary an animal part, but the machines that worked the soybean fields were greased with the blood of a thousand organisms. The vegetarian’s wheat crops feed millions, but robs the land of nutrients and destroys the top soil necessary for life.'

BeCool Wed 27-Feb-13 16:48:15

has anyone mentioned Quorn yet? A man made fungus (somehow involving eggs) cultivated in factories and marketed as a healthy low fat meat substitute (though it was originally developed as animal food but was uneconomical to produce for this market).
WTF???!!!!

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 16:55:24

No one has mentioned that, BeCool, but I'm with you all the way!
But someone will probably say that it is more nutritious than meat, just like some say that insects are too.

claig Wed 27-Feb-13 16:58:24

Meat grown in vats from stem cells, insects more nutritious than meat, GM soy - all claimed to be good for you.

It's like something out of 'Brave New World', the scientists and technocrats love you and above all they are trying to "save the planet" just for little 'ol you.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 27-Feb-13 17:00:06

Quorn isn't vegan...

BeCool Wed 27-Feb-13 17:01:30

RE the insects, it's just a cultural thing. Commonly eaten in Asia - no doubt they will be farmed though.

I have read the reason millions of Indian vegans don't suffer from B12 deficiency is because of all the insects they are eating that are in the sacks of rice/lentils etc & subsequently cooked/eaten. smile

BeCool Wed 27-Feb-13 17:02:00

No Quorn isn't vegan - it contains eggs somewhere in the process

LentilAsAnything Thu 28-Feb-13 22:15:31

A response from the CEO of the Vegan Society re the John Nicholson book. www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/health/health/article4816554.ece Sorry for Sun link! smile

claig Thu 28-Feb-13 22:45:06

Very good article in the Sun, thanks Lentil. If the Sun keeps writing informative articles like that, I may start buying it alongside my copy of the Daily Mail.

'You couldn’t have eaten more healthily than me.

Result? I was very sick. For 17 of those years I suffered from chronic IBS, my gut was bloated and felt like lead after every meal. I became clinically obese, had headaches every day, slept every afternoon, my libido diminished and my cholesterol was a massive 9.2mg/dl.

I did food diaries for my doctors.

Was this a really a healthy diet? “Yes, its great, keep it up,” they said.'

They never suggested that it was my diet making me sick. Not once.

Instead, they put me on statins, which made me weak and forgetful. But no more.'

They really think we are stupid. Remember their wonder pills that all over fifties should take along with all their jabs.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2194892/All-50s-statins-regardless-health-history-says-Oxford-professor.html

'And the one that go away

ANGELINA JOLIE: “I joke that a big juicy steak is my beauty secret. But seriously, I love red meat. I was a vegan for a long time and it nearly killed me. I found I was not getting enough nutrition.”

claig Thu 28-Feb-13 23:00:36
claig Thu 28-Feb-13 23:01:33

I'll have red meat, red wine, eggs, butter, bacon and all the stuff they say is bad for you. They can keep their polypill.

claig Thu 28-Feb-13 23:09:20

Have you ever wondered why they always offer these things for over 50s?
They love the over 50s and they also want to 'save the planet' and not 'burden the biosphere', or so the tell us year on year.

PurityBrown Fri 01-Mar-13 00:17:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WifeofPie Fri 01-Mar-13 04:34:56

Jains are not vegan. They eat (strictly controlled) dairy.

ppeatfruit Fri 01-Mar-13 09:11:33

claig Everyone is different and reacts differently to all foods. That is why SOME people e.g. Angelina Jolie are ill on vegan diets (esp. with if they include whole wheat see Wheat Belly by William Davis M.D.)

And others O types mainly do really well on a low carb high animal protein diet. I found my eczema,arthritis etc. disappearing when I began the Blood Type Diet I didn't realise that A types like me are bad with oranges and tomatoes.

LadyPessaryPam Fri 01-Mar-13 09:25:27

claig, I think the over 50s are destined to become soylent green at some point in the not too distant future grin

I too will not be taking their polypill or their statins. I eat green veg, meat, milk, eggs, cheese and butter. My BMI and blood readings are fine and my BP is 120/80. I will not be medicated for problems I do not have.

LadyPessaryPam Fri 01-Mar-13 09:26:51

ppeatfruit, what's an A type? Is it blood group because I am A and I do really well on the low carb high animal protein diet.

claig Fri 01-Mar-13 11:19:54

' I will not be medicated for problems I do not have.'

LadyPessary, spot on. They'll be giving it away free at supermarkets one day (but only for over 50s), but we'll still not take it.

ppeatfruit Fri 01-Mar-13 11:26:49

Yes it's a blood group pessary It's not straightforward because you could be an A' type non secretor which means you can eat more meat. Most A's are good with fish but only a little white meat. It's good you have no health problems, I know a lot of ill A types IBS, arthritis, depression, Chrones' (sp)? disease etc. (check out the books and apps, FB etc. the name of its author is Dr. Peter D'Adamo) I don't do links sorry!

sammyscookies Fri 19-Apr-13 15:54:25

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HumphreyCobbler Fri 19-Apr-13 16:30:07

Craig, your way of eating seems very sensible to me and reminds me of this book 'In Defense of Food'. The author says we should not eat anything that our great grandmother would not recognise as food. Look at the ingredients list. If there is something you cannot recognise, don't eat the food. It is a fascinating look at the 'science' of nutritionism that gave and gives us rather a lot of misinformation, like margarine being better for us than butter.

HumphreyCobbler Fri 19-Apr-13 16:30:27

sorry, Claig

Lifetheuniverseandeverything Fri 19-Apr-13 17:33:29

YANBU to be worried about your husband's friendship and control issues with food.

If this thread was just invented to bash vegans and vegetarians YABU. The number one killer in the West is not B12 deficiency or protein deficiency. It's heart disease. It is not worth getting into a debate as addicts will always defend their drug of choice. Why do people still smoke even though common sense tells us it's not a good idea? Many say it's all a conspiracy and there is nothing wrong with a cigarette to calm the nerves. Plenty of folk started smoking at 8 or 9 and lived til they were 100 or didn't get emphysema like Richard Briars. Some control freaks get prissy and don't want their kids to smell smoke or be stuck in cars with smokers. Why don't they grow up and accept humans have smoked substances for many many years and they haven't even considered the devastation non smokers cause to the tobacco industry. Who would grow tobacco if we didn't smoke it?

Got to go, a badger has been run over outside and my paleo instincts are calling me, I'm sooo hungry and the kids need to limber up to catch the cat that keeps crapping in my garden if they want any tea. Free range!

I wish that calf in the truck crying for it's mother would just shut the hell up the sooner it's veal the better. Mmmmm milk and pus yummy.

Seriously, if you want some nice recipes that don't make you want to weep because they're so 'vegan' &health food shop go to the engine2 website with the lovely Rip Esselstyn, lots of scientific information & common sense advice, no Birkenstocks required.

Sammy: That site hasn't got anything about guidance, it's a baking blog, and not a great one at that!

Glenshee Tue 24-Sep-13 13:11:36

MrsMushroom - I'm wondering how things have been since February - could you give us curious minds a bit of an update? smile flowers

i was thinking of this thread too the other day

TheFuzz Tue 24-Sep-13 14:33:06

I would ask him to cater for himself as the diet sounds too extreme. You can't be preparing a meal for you and the kids, then having to come up with another meal within these tight restrictions. Oh and organic stuff doesn't come cheap.

You also need to go and give this 'mate' a slap for putting stupid ideas in your partner's head.

grimbletart Tue 24-Sep-13 14:50:40

I know plenty of vegetarians but only ever knew one vegan. Sadly he died of cancer when he was in his 30s.

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