to point out that formula feeding doesn't necessarily require you to be sterilising bottles and scooping out powder in the middle of the night...

(454 Posts)
itsakindarabbit Fri 22-Feb-13 21:56:06

Keep seeing this on threads which mention ff...how people couldnt be doing with getting up in the night andstsrilising bottles/making up feeds.

I bf and ff but found ff no problem at night - i would take up a carton of ready made formula and a pre sterilised bottle and i could feed without getting out of bed.

And yes, i know ready made formula is expensive and not everyone uses it. But some of us do/did.

honeytea Fri 22-Feb-13 21:59:09

Does the formula have to be warm? I have not used it but I have heared about warming cooling bottles.

In the middle of the night pooring a carton of milk into a bottle in the dark would be beyond me, but my co-ordination skills are not the best even when I am fully awake.

PurpleStorm Fri 22-Feb-13 21:59:46

We used the ready made formula once I stopped expressing breast milk. I think DS was about 9 months old then.

But it is expensive if you're planning on using a lot of ready made formula for a significant length of time. And you obviously still have to sterilise the bottles at some point.

Snazzynewyear Fri 22-Feb-13 22:00:26

Fair point but it would be too costly an option for a good few people, I guess. Are the pre-sterilised bottles one use only?

itsakindarabbit Fri 22-Feb-13 22:01:03

No ir doesnet have to be warm.

Who said it had to be dark???

PurpleStorm Fri 22-Feb-13 22:01:40

The ready made formula doesn't have to be warmed, but DS refused to drink it cold, so we had to warm it to a temperature he liked. I guess some babies wouldn't be bothered though.

We used to have pre made up bottles upstairs at night in a cool bag. Lots of babies don't mind what temperature it is served.

Still not as easy as wopping out a boob.

PurpleStorm Fri 22-Feb-13 22:02:50

And I would guess that by pre-sterilised bottles, the OP meant a normal re-useable bottle that had been sterilised normally and had a cap over the teat?

No it doesn't need warming.

I used powdered milk and a flask of hot water at night with ds3 and cartons when he was older so it wasn't any faff really. Ds4 is 3 weeks old and bf but has a carton in the night.

Perplexed at this thread

itsakindarabbit Fri 22-Feb-13 22:05:22

Oh its way easier thsn wopping out a boob... "dh, the baby needs feeding, it's your turn" grin

We also used the ready made bottles of formula that come with sterilised teats but they were expensive

its that's why I'm using formula at night, I just poke dh awake and go back to sleep

FoxyRoxy Fri 22-Feb-13 22:08:37

Bottles are sterilised, made and cooled and then put in the fridge. This is in line with WHO guidelines and means in the middle of the night all I had to do was take a bottle from the fridge and put it in the microwave bottle warmer.

GirlOutNumbered Fri 22-Feb-13 22:08:46

Surely people that ff know this.... So your point is to start a bunfight, surely.

Sprite21 Fri 22-Feb-13 22:08:57

Maybe this is just a bf thing but often DD would wake 4,5 times or more wanting feeding. Wouldn't that mean getting out a new bottle every time? Seems a right faff to me.

HollyBerryBush Fri 22-Feb-13 22:09:24

Clearly I am a feckless and uselss parent - I filled all 8 bottles once a day and stuck them in the fridge - then >shhh< I microwaved them

No one died or got burned or had the shits and I didnt get mangled nipples grin win-win

KitCat26 Fri 22-Feb-13 22:09:39

With mine I used to make the bottle up, put it in the fridge until I went to bed then take it up to bed in an insulated bag. Both mine happily drank milk warm or cold. <lazy>

ChairmanWow Fri 22-Feb-13 22:10:49

Wish I'd seen this thread a couple of years ago. It would have saved a lot of bleary-eyed kitchen visits. Planning on BF this baby but if I can't again I'm def nicking the flask idea. Face-palming at not having thought of it before.

MorrisZapp Fri 22-Feb-13 22:11:00

Time waits for no woman. In the two years since I said goodbye to formula, they've brought out big bottles of ready made stuff. Assume that while still pricy, they're cheaper than the equivalent in single use cartons.

I really disliked the cartons themselves, though I loved the convenience. A screw top bottle is so much more user friendly.

Like anything, it all gets easier and better designed.

NumericalMum Fri 22-Feb-13 22:12:30

BF til 9 months and FF after that. BF was definitely easier. No amount of DH can you feed the baby worked - he would need the light on to make the bottle (unfortunately the formula was powdered as it was an allergy one) would require making enough noise to wake the neighbours and ensure baby was properly awake. Feed baby... after all that I was wide awake and usually baby would take 30 minutes to settle. Biggest regret ever was giving up BF when I returned to work thinking it would be easier!

KitCat26 Fri 22-Feb-13 22:12:39

Both mine only woke once or twice a night Sprite, no. 1 was bf for the first 6 weeks too.

itsakindarabbit Fri 22-Feb-13 22:13:28

Not at all, girloutnumbered. Just saying that ff is not necessarily as onerous as some perceive.

NumericalMum Fri 22-Feb-13 22:13:32

Oh and in the day BF won hands down. No worries about running out of clean bottles, formula, boiled water etc.

itsakindarabbit Fri 22-Feb-13 22:15:39

Numericalmum - sympathies, but surely you can understand that i wasnt referring to cases like yours? Whole purpose of the thread, as per title is that ff doesn't necessarily require making night feeds. Sadly in yourcase it did.

Still not as easy as wopping out a boob.

Don't even need to wop it out. Just sleep topless. Easy. FF at night is hard. So glad baby was night-weaned before I went formula full time.

It strikes me as an attempt at bunfightery

Loving that I'm bring quoted. grin

Also - OH rarely ever did a night feed, as he had to be up for work.

NumericalMum Fri 22-Feb-13 22:20:20

But rabbit I don't see the point of your post then.
It can be really easy. It can be really hard. I know of few babies who will take an unwarmed carton of milk in a bottle (especially one that has been out all night so probably below normal room temperature in a bedroom unless you have heating on all night) and those babies' parents are the only ones who would find it easier to ff, surely?

Morloth Fri 22-Feb-13 22:20:26

Still harder than not actually waking up at all and the baby latching themselves on, which was our preferred method.

LBsBongers Fri 22-Feb-13 22:20:30

I can't help but feel people who feed babies cold formula are just being tight.

DonderandBlitzen Fri 22-Feb-13 22:21:52

I've done both and I also used to find it odd when people brayed about how ff seemed so complicated and how they would have found it far too confusing to know how to do it. I'm sure they could have managed to get the hang of it!

You're welcome :D

beenhereayear Fri 22-Feb-13 22:22:43

I used to sterilise bottles then put boiled water in them (not boiling but pretty hot) put them in a bottle keep warm thing and take them up with me with pre-measured powder pots to add as and when.

Mine are still here smile

ThePathanKhansAmnesiac Fri 22-Feb-13 22:26:20

Both great ways to nourish a baby.
Pointless goady thread IMHO.

Boomerwang Fri 22-Feb-13 22:26:23

After a few goes it's easy to do. Pre sterilise bottles in the microwave, fill with boiling water, allow to cool, tops on, in fridge. When needed, microwave water back to reasonable temperature, count the scoops in, close and shake. Takes approximately one and a half minutes if you heat the water for 50 seconds like I do.

My baby likes cold formula. If you give him warm stuff he looks at you really funny, and will only drink a wee bit.
Only ever warmed a bottle for him once, when he was about 6 weeks old. He prefers it on the cold side of luke-warm if not cold from the fridge.

FF isn't complicated, just takes a bit more thinking/preparation time then BF. My LO's bottles are already in the fridge ready for tomorrow.

ThePlatypusAlwaysTriumphs Fri 22-Feb-13 22:26:41

Hmm, I bfed, but decided DH could take his turn with expressed bm. Baby woke up, screaming. Dd1 wouldn't accept cold bm, he went downstairs to warm it. I couldn't bear listening to the screaming, so by the time he had done it, dd1 was latched on and I was virtually asleep again! Never bothered trying that again.

I genuinely have no probs with people ff, but it DID seem like the harder option to me. If baby wakes, I wake. There is no way I am getting back to sleep until screaming is stopped/ light is off. I guess its just whatever works for you.

ravenAK Fri 22-Feb-13 22:26:42

I BF initially, then did mixed feeding after returning from ML, & I do remember it as a faff with scoops, kettles, bottles to wash etc.

By the time I was onto my 3rd dc, I was absolutely NOT going there again & used the ready-made stuff, in a sippy cup from about 6 months. Which was slightly less bother but ruinously expensive.

Boob-wopping = definitely the cheap, lazy, far preferable option for me. But I appreciate that had I not been able to BF I would have experienced it differently.

greenbananas Fri 22-Feb-13 22:27:50

Even if you use cartons of ready-made formula and your baby accepts them cold, surely you still have to be awake to hold the bottle in the baby's mouth?

I prefer not to wake up at all, so baby sleeps next to me and helps himself when he is hungry smile

I don't co sleep so still have to sit up and get baby out to bf.

Dp is working 6 days a week but still does a late night feed or an early morning one with formula.

Can't say the carton at room temp bothers the baby, it's not like my bm comes out hot. When we were in nicu with ds3 all formula/expressed milk was given at room temp

I find it easier to: boil kettle, pour water into bottles, leave to cool a bit, add correct amount of powder, cool very quickly in ice-water, into fridge, ready to go when baby is.

SkinnybitchWannabe Fri 22-Feb-13 22:28:57

I used to make a days worth at a time and keep them in the fridge. I had a little bottle warmer at night and I used the microwave in the day.
I found it all easy peasy

ChairmanWow Fri 22-Feb-13 22:29:53

The OP doesn't say it's easier than BF, it says it's not necessarily as hard as some people may perceive. I don't see what's so controversial about that really. Some of us have been unable to BF so it's useful to discuss making those night feeds less onerous.

To the poster who said it was mean to give unwarmed formula, my son really didn't mind what temperature it was. We just chose not to use cartons because they're so expensive.

It would be nice for this not to turn into an argument.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Fri 22-Feb-13 22:31:12

What's the point of this thread, is it some competition?

I made four bottles up at a time with water, then added the powder which I'd pre-measured into a powder pot. Easy. DS drinks his at room temperature.

I'm sure wopping a boob out would have been easier, but not everyone can bf.

HollyBerryBush Fri 22-Feb-13 22:31:29

I've always wondered about the whole sterilising thing.

Unless you take a shower in hibiscrub directly before feeding, your breasts are gonna be a bit leaky, dare I say manky, and rubbing against clothing. It's hardly sterile is it? plus, I reall reading one thread on here asking how often people changed bras or sheets and one even gave a 3 month time line.

I would also point out the instant you remove a bottle from boiling water/steam and it hits air, it ceases to be sterile.

You're lucky moomin! OH rarely ever does night feeds (baby has been night-weaned since about 7 months). I think he did a few during his two weeks paternity leave, but no more than about 10 times in the first 7 months of LO's life.
Doesn't bother me at all though - OH works very hard so I don't have to and I've never expected him to get up in the night. He will get up and settle the baby back to sleep sometimes, but if he needed feeding, he would bring the baby to me.

Figgygal Fri 22-Feb-13 22:33:18

It definitely isn't difficult it becomes routine and u just don't notice it.

DS hated bf he fought constantly, probably because my supply never came in proper and he was starving bottles def easier and less stressful than that sad

raven I'm responsible for the boob wopping comment and I struggled hard for 8 weeks to feed dd. it wasn't easier in all ways at all times.

But definitely op is goady.

NandH Fri 22-Feb-13 22:36:31

I would have loved to breast feed, but couldn't sad

so I formula feed, my routine is...

1. boil kettle before bed and fill 4 sterilised bottles.
2. take bottles and tub of formula up to bed.
3. put appropriate scoops of formula into one bottle and put into the bottle warmer ready for ds's feed.

then after ds's feed I just do step 2 and 3 again ready for ds's next feed smile ...easy peasy...lemon squeezey!

I also agree with bongers I don't like babies being given cold milk, also no excuse not to warm it up when all you have to do is stick it in a bottle warmer and it'll warm it to the right temp for you!

The boiling water/temperature of the water for killing nasties in the formula is more important than sterilising the bottles (in my eyes at least - you should always rinse bottles straight after use, wash in hot soapy water, and sterilise as well if baby is under 6 months).

beemail Fri 22-Feb-13 22:40:02

Adopted 2 babies and formula fed. Took flask with 1/2 boiling water and 1/2 cold water to bed. Had premeasured powder in pots. Put water from flask in bottle and added pdr and shook. Baby slept in cot next to bed, all the above within reach from bed. Seemed easy enough to me!

Pobblewhohasnotoes Fri 22-Feb-13 22:40:10

You don't ^ have^ to warm formula up, it's just a habit. I wouldn't give my DS milk straight out the fridge but room temp is fine, he won't drink it warm. Spits it out.

Not quite sure why some people seem to think its mean not to warm it.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Fri 22-Feb-13 22:40:47

have

I applauded the boob wopping quote, and struggled massively to BF, not getting it 'right' until 10 weeks. Not looking to goad anyone at all....but having mix fed, EBF and EFF, BF at night was certainly the easiest option for us. But FF wasn't that bad either.

But NandH - the water isn't at the right temperature to kill the formula's potential bugs....unless the warmer warms it to 70 degrees? (Don't know anything about warmers!)

MikeOxardAndWellard Fri 22-Feb-13 22:41:32

Meh. I sleep naked, ds next to me, he helps himself, I sleep. I don't even have to poke anyone awake. I am the laziest winner.

Beamae Fri 22-Feb-13 22:41:36

It took an hour and a half to breastfeed my premie twins. 20 minutes to bottle feed. Even with making up the bottles etc it was still easier.

itsakindarabbit Fri 22-Feb-13 22:42:25

Not goady at all! Just taking a view 'ff at night is difficult as involves sterilising, boiling kettles and scooping out powder" and saying, actually, it doesnt have to be like that.

ll31 Fri 22-Feb-13 22:42:31

Don't see any problem with thread. op is right, ff in middle of night is easy for some people, like bf I imagine.

beemail Fri 22-Feb-13 22:43:41

Yes I agree. Babies pretty soon very happy with room temp. It's really not difficult and I'd have done anything for them at any hour really. That surely comes with the territory and it's not for that long

Startail Fri 22-Feb-13 22:43:42

Yes I used cartons very very occasionally if out, but I truly couldn't justify the cost otherwise.

We were much better off when DD2 came along.

Of course, you've guessed, DD2 has never touched a bottle of milk in her life.

Must say he didn't do any night feeds with ds3, probably because I always expressed so he fed him when he came home from work instead.

I hadn't expected him to do any night feeds this time. It's probably due to a combination of the baby being bf so the night bottle is the only one he gets to do and the fact that ds3 is 23 months old and has only just started sleeping through so I've already had 2 years of night waking! Not sure how long dp will keep it up but I'm making the most of it for now grin

Mike - totally read that as you DH helps himself.....

I'm off for a fag.

pomdereplay Fri 22-Feb-13 22:46:17

The 'sterilising thing' is mostly to do with the fact that formula powder isn't a sterile substance and needs to be prepared with water above 70 degrees in order to kill any bacteria. Obviously sterile feeding equipment is also important with little babies, but no this does not apply to breasts in the slightest. Studies in fact demonstrate that newborns are more likely to find the unwashed breast easily, so there is an evolutionary purpose to smelling a bit like milk and it certainly doesn't cause any harm. Most breastfeeding mothers aren't filthy to the point of being a biohazard, Holly, and plenty also feed without 'mangled' nipples (or, like me, get through that stage with a little help from Lansinoh and nipple shields and go on to have happy, stress free months and years of feeding). Not necessarily a deal breaker.

AmberLeaf Fri 22-Feb-13 22:57:44

OP has a point and isn't goady IMO.

The whole 'prepping bottles at night etc ' is often rolled out when talking of BF.

It doesn't have to be a faff unless you make it one.

Booyhoo Fri 22-Feb-13 22:57:57

i cant remember what i did with ds1's bottles.

does anyone know, is it ok to make up a bottle before you go to bed and bring it up with you. jsut let it cool on the bedside table and give to baby when they wake?

i'm not pregnant or anything BTW i'm just thinking if i would want to BF another baby and what the rules of FF are if i dont.

I found the worst thing was expressing as ds3 just refused the boob so feeding every couple of hours and expressing in between which was awful.

boo it's not advised, the same as they say not to make them in advance and keep them in the fridge any more.

You are supposed to make up when needed, cool quickly to the right temp and throw away if the baby hasn't drank it after an hour

Booyhoo Fri 22-Feb-13 23:01:39

i cant remember what i did with ds1's bottles.

does anyone know, is it ok to make up a bottle before you go to bed and bring it up with you. jsut let it cool on the bedside table and give to baby when they wake?

i'm not pregnant or anything BTW i'm just thinking if i would want to BF another baby and what the rules of FF are if i dont.

Booyhoo Fri 22-Feb-13 23:02:47

sorry for double post! my page refreshed back to pg1 and i thought it hadn't posted.

Booyhoo Fri 22-Feb-13 23:03:37

thanks moomin.

Booyhoo Fri 22-Feb-13 23:05:40

so how do you make a bottle?

boil kettle. pour in bottle. add scoops. run under cold water. and test on your wrist?

Snazzynewyear Fri 22-Feb-13 23:12:36

I thought that too - advice was you had to make the formula fresh every time. So do most people just ignore that then?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Feb-13 23:16:26

I'm a bit worried by some of the replies on this thread.

You do not boil water to sterilise the water!
You must add the powder to hot water (70deg+) to sterilise the powder

You should never add powder to cold water, boiled or not.

PeazlyPops Fri 22-Feb-13 23:18:30

I've never used powder, only ready made formula, and DS is 10mo now, still having 4 x 9oz bottles a day.

Yes it costs more, but there's no way I'm faffing around measuring powder out! Life is too short.

boo yes, or keep the boiled water in a flask so you don't need to wait for the kettle to boil.

Some people put boiling water in the bottle then add formula then top it up with cooled boiled water to the required amount so they don't have to wait for it to cool but I've never done that.

It seems lots of people ignore the advice if my fb is anything to go by. Also some people think it's fine as long as the water is boiled, which is not the case. It's the formula that has bacteria in it and therefore needs adding to boiling water.

WinterWinds Fri 22-Feb-13 23:27:09

does anyone know, is it ok to make up a bottle before you go to bed and bring it up with you. jsut let it cool on the bedside table and give to baby when they wake?

I did this with all three of mine, My last one was bottle fed 10 years ago and haven't got a scooby what the guidlines were back then but it did them no harm.
TBH if i were to have another (hypothetically!!) then would continue to do the same. My aim was to get up get baby fed, winded and back to sleep as quickly as possible in the dark with my eyes half closed, so as not to wake myself up properly.
So couldn't be doing with faffing around making bottles up and scooping milk into freshly boiled water one at a time. Bugger That!!!

MummytoMog Fri 22-Feb-13 23:32:16

Getting DH to feed the baby? When I'm on mat leave? And he's got work in the morning? Er, no. Besides, can and did BF in my sleep.

I never sterilised, but then I never FF before five months, and frankly once they're shoving whole kittens into their mouths, it seems a bit prissy to sterilise baby bottles that have been washed thoroughly.

Booyhoo Fri 22-Feb-13 23:36:02

this has really annoyed me actually on hearing what you're supposed to do.

i was a teen when i had ds1 and clueless. after convincing me i didn't have enough milk so i had to switch to formula my mum then convinced me i was feeding him wrong, using the wrong bottle, holding him wrong, making the feeds up wrong and i listened to her. she advised me to do this: boil the kettle in the morning, fill up all the bottles for the day, put them in the fridge then when he was ready for a feed add the powder and warm the bottle in the microwave. ds would bring up after every feed and she made me feel so guilty that i was still doing it wrong, wasn't cleaning things properly, wasn't sterilising things, wasn't putting the lid on the tin properly. i remember sitting in my friend's house faffing about with a pot of pre measured powder, my hands were shaking and i was getting so frustrated trying to get it in the bottle without touching it or spilling any and my friend was furious with my mum for getting my into such a tizz about it. turns out my mum was giving me the wrong advice after all! angry

I did the same with ds1&2, although I did reheat with a bottle warmer as guidelines were different back then and they advised you to make bottles in advance and keep them in the fridge, the same as weaning advice was different when they were born.

However advice on both things have changed so with ds3 I made when needed and didn't wean until 6 months.

It depends how old your ds1 is, mine has just turned 18 and ds2 is 10. I don't know when they changed it to making feeds up as you need them. Your mum sounds like she wasn't very supportive though sad

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 22-Feb-13 23:50:37

Booyhoo

As far as I recall about 20 years ago they did say make up the days bottles in one hit and bung them in the fridge but they also were quite negative about warming them up in the microwave, something to do with hotspots.

It used to be warm them up in a jug of hot water.

But my understanding is these days they advise making up each bottle as you need it with cooled boiled water.and discarding any not used after an hour.

It sounds like your mum really knocked your confidence,I hope it hasn't caused lasting problems

RatPants Fri 22-Feb-13 23:52:11

YANBU.

Booyhoo Fri 22-Feb-13 23:52:15

he is 7. i think she thought she was helping/being supportive and making sure i was doing right by ds but she definitely didn't like me BFing. still angry about that tbh. she had the formula in the cupboard waiting for when i would 'fail' and took great pleasure in giving him his first bottle.

midastouch Fri 22-Feb-13 23:56:23

WIth my DD I did exactly the same as you OP with a carton, pre sterelised bottle and bottle warmer (if i had time). With my first DS i did the whole steralising and making it up with a screaming baby in the middle of the night what a nob! i think people are a bit paranoid, you have it drummed into you that you have to steralise and use within so many hours when actuallly its about hygiene and being sensible! Its not too expensive if you only use the cartons at night.

She sounds awful. I know by the time my friend had her dd who is 5 or 6 now the advice had changed to make up as you need them.

shock that your mum bought in formula when you were trying to bf. I was 16 when ds1 was born, I can't imagen how much harder it would have been if my mum hadn't been so supportive.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 23:58:13

You do know there's a designated Bf/Ff topic don't you?
All for you, and so you then don't clutter up the other topics with your repetitive arguments.
I'd link you to it but I CBA.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 00:06:33

yes i was really upset when she casually said "i have some formula in the kitchen if you want to try him on it. at least you'll know he's getting enough" sounds silly to be so upset but the fact that she was so smug about it really got to me. i've slowly created alot of distance between us over the years tbh. and i basically tell her i wont discuss certain subjects if she brings them up. i have to in order to avoid being dragged into her issues.

wiltingfast Sat 23-Feb-13 00:07:32

Another here who made the bottles up in the morning and stuck them in the fridge. Two babies have survived my madness!

As for the night feed (just 1) we just brought a bottle up and by the time baby wanted it, it was room temp anyway.

On dd I had one of those bedside cots, brilliant! Pick up bottle, roll baby in, give her the feed, roll her back out, it was the biz smile

SirBoobAlot Sat 23-Feb-13 00:26:39

Some of these replies are concerning.

Formula is not sterile. If made incorrectly, it can make babies very very ill.

midastouch Sat 23-Feb-13 00:44:30

Agree sirboobalot the guidelines were obviously changed for a reason, my mother made mine and put them in the fridge and was amazed they tell you not to now. It is your babies health and thats not a chance im willing to take just for convenience. Formula in a carton is sterile though its the powder thats not

AudrinaAdare Sat 23-Feb-13 00:46:39

Booyhoo my mum was like that. Totally undermining. And then gave me crap and outdated advice about FF. I was in my late twenties, was pre-internet and I was a lone parent going back to full-time work after three months so I didn't know what else to do.

I am also cross and totally understand where you are coming from.

It was completely different when I had DS seven years later thanks to MN smile

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 01:14:11

same audrina. i had no internet at home and was also a lone parent with no-one else who could tell me different. best friend was good support but i was nowhere near able to stand up to my mum even with her support. we were both silly teens as far as my mum was concerned.

Tortington Sat 23-Feb-13 01:19:39

oh for bottle warmers and microwaves, in'th olden days (1990s) i made up 16 bottles at the beginning of the day, (twins) stuck them in fridge and warmed up in a jug of hot water.

so i did have to get out of bed

Tortington Sat 23-Feb-13 01:20:19

now, i'd pay someone else to do that shit if i was unlucky enough to ever be in that horrible situation smile

detoxlatte Sat 23-Feb-13 02:58:43

Totally agree with you, OP.

It's like the whole "I'd much rather be reading to my children than wiping the kitchen counters down/ hoovering/ whatever" to justify a filthy home.

Not, of course, that bf is like keeping a filthy home grin , it's the hiding behind own purported or - worse - actual failings/deficiencies. It's so insulting, and just lame.

GingerDoodle Sat 23-Feb-13 06:12:29

I think it depends what you are used to but people's opinions really don't need to be voiced forcefully either way.

For me, bf and indeed mix feeding using top ups was very time consuming. I now seralise 6 bottles in the morning and use them as needed with the 1lt bottles of formula or cartons if I'm out.

At night I take a bottle up in a cold bag with ice packs.

Dd prefers it slightly warm or room temp so I stick it in a pot if hot tap water to take the chill off.

echt Sat 23-Feb-13 06:25:44

DD always had cold bottles. Dh would make a batch for the day, they'd be kept cool in the fridge.

Oddly, when the bottle fairy eventually came to visit, she never touched milk as a drink again.

wigglesrock Sat 23-Feb-13 06:25:52

Yes, guidelines are to make each bottle up fresh, but there are guidelines on how to best make up premade bottles if it is simply not practical/possible to make each feed from fresh. Theres loads of advice on bottle/breast feeding section and on NHS guidelines.

I formula fed and didn't really get the whole its such a faff making up bottles, sterilising, washing etc. It was how I fed by kids so it was just what I did. I didn't think it was faffier than changing a nappy, getting the pram out, trying to "persuade" the baby that socks were a good idea.

fatlazymummy Sat 23-Feb-13 09:07:52

I mainly Ff 3 babies, I never found it a faff at all.Of course breastfeeding sounds very easy if you can 'lay there asleep while baby helps him/herself', but how many women actually get to that stage? I certainly didn't. Breastfeeding just wasn't that simple and problem free to me, in fact I found it incredibly time consuming and inconvenient.

"Time consuming and inconvenient" ... WTF?

Well yes, the lying there asleep while baby latches doesn't happen immediately, but surely a bit of effort is to be expected?

<damn I was trying to avoid falling in to goady fucker's trap!>

AmberLeaf Sat 23-Feb-13 10:01:02

wonders how my babies survived being ff, with pre made bottles....

Anyone know of any ff babies that got very ill from drinking a pre made ff bottle?

me neither.

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 10:18:04

I have 2 strapping 18 year olds who were ff. I even used to make up 6 bottles at a time and keep them in the fridge until they were needed and then warmed them up.

It wasn't rocket science. And they never got ill.

fatlazymummy Sat 23-Feb-13 10:27:52

babiesinslippers I was comparing my experiences of breastfeeding to other people who say they find breastfeeding so much easier and more convenient than formula feeding. I didn't and I suspect many other women don't either.If they did then wouldn't it actually be more popular?
So WTF to yourself.

Chunderella Sat 23-Feb-13 10:31:11

Advice on whether it's safe to make up in the fridge and the reheat later varies. The WHO say it's better to make bottles up as needed, but do not forbid making up in advance and warming up provided you have a fridge and you warm safely.

http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/micro/PIF_Bottle_en.pdf

I'll tell DD she needs to rethink her preference for cold bottles and stop turning her nose up at feeds that are too warm for her liking.

ChairmanWow Sat 23-Feb-13 11:02:49

No I didn't either Fatlazy. It was a horrible nightmare and really upsetting and was never going to happen for us. Let's not fall out about it though. It's a very emotive subject. Far too emotive IMO.

We used to sterilise our bottles for the day, keep some cooled boiled water in the fridge and mix the powder in thesterile bottke with boiling water, using the cooler water to get it to the right temperature for immediate use. That way any bugs in the powder are killed but you're not frantically trying to cool a bottle while hungry baby screams the house down.

My OH was a bit rubbish though and I'm convinced he used milk that had sat there a while when I wasn't looking. DS was and is fine.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 12:22:05

i have to say, i hate the idea of giving tiny babies cold milk to drink. does that mean they dont have a warm meal until they are six months old? i think room temp would be the lowest temp i could feed to a baby but definitely not cold. i think there is a comfort factor in the warm milk that isn't there with cold.

ChestyLeRoux Sat 23-Feb-13 12:26:35

I just lay that and she latches on.Havent got out of bed since she was born,and I have to say it is considerably easier than ffing as no faff at all.

FutTheShuckUp Sat 23-Feb-13 12:32:18

Totally irrelevent but lol @ 'babiesinslippers'
Why does ANY thread mentioning formula feeding always turn into a breast is best/easier/cheaper/healthier sermon.
ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH JUST ARGHHHHHH

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 12:34:50

Fut, it is the law. hmm

I couldn't give a flying fig what anyone else does/how they fed their babies.

It is totally wrong, however, to try and make someone else feel guilty about THEIR choices. Bf isn't for everyone. Ff isn't for everyone. Each to their own.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 12:39:55

i fed ds2 until he was 22 months old and he never latched on by himself. i always thought it would come in time but it didn't and i would have to wake every time and help him latch on.

BrianCoxandTheTempleofDOOM Sat 23-Feb-13 12:41:07

I'm planning to BF DS (due in 5 weeks) I BF DD (9 yo) for 13 months.

However, this time round I am worried that if I cant BF for any reason that FF seems like such a massive faff.

I opened this thread and have actually found it informative and helpful and hasn't put me off the idea of FF if my preferred route of BF didn't work out. Also - brings up the possibility of mixed feeding (ie FF through the night) as P and I are no longer together so he could take baby over night and it would mean I could continue BF but also get the odd night's rest IYSWIM (when baby is older, not as a newborn obv!).

So, OP I don't think for one second you are being goady or attempting a bun fight. Not everybody knows the tricks of the trade where FF is concerned (they may seem eye-wateringly obvious to others) and I personally find that the majority of comments on this thread are helpful.

Sashapineapple Sat 23-Feb-13 12:52:12

FF isn't a faff at all, to me that is just some BFeeders say to promote BF. The reality is different. It's like the cost, if you take into account the bf bras/tops, nipple creams, the hassle of antibiotics if you get thrush etc then it's not really cheaper or less hassle imo.
I think people should be able to feed their children however the see fit (bf or ff) and people should stop trying to push their views on others.
It really annoys me when the faff argument comes out because it just bollocks. You don't need to worry about running out of clean bottles or formula unless you are a complete dimwit.
BF works for some women and they love it. For other FF is the best way.

ChestyLeRoux Sat 23-Feb-13 13:15:28

I did find it a bigger faff tbh but thats my experience,and Im lazy and disorganised and found bfing suited me a lot more.It is a lot cheaper for me though I would say Ive saved a £1000 so far and I have spent nothing on bfing.

RainbowSpiral Sat 23-Feb-13 13:24:19

I only ff my second son, initially sadly as I had to take medication, but it worked out great in the end. The joy of lying in bed whilst dh did the night feed occasionally....pure bliss! Also my kids were close together so friends and family could feed ds2 and I could play with ds1. Again a great boom.

ChairmanWow Sat 23-Feb-13 13:40:25

I couldn't give a flying fig what anyone else does/how they fed their babies. YY to that. As long as it's not single malt and razor blades they'll be grand!

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 13:45:39

Gin for babies. Whisky for toddlers. grin

*wonders how my babies survived being ff, with pre made bottles....

Anyone know of any ff babies that got very ill from drinking a pre made ff bottle?

me neither.*

Not me. But then I don't know anyone who's had lung cancer either. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

sasha et al, re cost. You're not supposed to wear underwire bras when pg, so but non underwire ones with drop cups then. Also you don't need special tops, this always confuses me. You can spend £6 on washable pads, which you down need past 4 or 5 months anyway. I used one tube of Lansinoh, £9 with dd and not with ds. I didn't get thrush or mastitis once in my 30 months of bf to date. So the cost has been zero-minimal. I haven't had to buy bottles, teats, steriliser, formula, bottle warmer, those wee pot things for milk powder. I've never had to struggle to open one of those cartons made of unbearable Teflon (?) except for dn. I've never wanted to be spontaneous and change my plans and had to think 'no, I've not brought enough milk'. I can walk out the door without doing more than grabbing a (reusable) nappy and some (non reusable!) wipes.,just have to make sure I've got my tits on!

The truth is one person's convenience is another's hassle. But then I'd never sacrifice the gift of breastmilk for my child as it was a hassle. As it happened I think that in the first few weeks its a massive hassle and after that its so much easier. The thought of having either baby cry for more than a few seconds at giant makes my blood run cold, mainly as then we'd all (me, dh & dd(3) ) be awake. As it is if on the very rare occasion (once a fortnight?) ds wakes for milk or comfort, I force feed give him some milk & the sleepy hormones send us both straight back to sleep without waking anyone else.

ChairmanWow Sat 23-Feb-13 14:36:45

But then I'd never sacrifice the gift of breastmilk for my child as it was a hassle. As it happened I think that in the first few weeks its a massive hassle and after that its so much easier.

The inference being that other posters have done just that? Well, I can't speak for anyone else but it was more than a hassle, it didn't get easier and my boy ended up in hospital. So thank feck for life-saving formula. And for the mostly sensible posts on here. I'm due again in 3 weeks and if the same happens with BF I now have some helpful hints to make life a bit easier.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 14:45:17

i agree chairman. it isn't liquid gold. it's milk and there is a perfectly acceptable alternative with pros and cons just as Bf has pros and cons. what suits for some doesn't for others.

i'm really enjoying this thread actiually. usually they are very one sided (on either side of the fence) but this has been quite pleasant and informative. like others i wrongly assumed FF was more hassle than BFing but looking back i honestly can say i would be hard pressed to decide which suited me more a i think both have their benefits and if i have any more children i will just decide based on what the circumstances are at the time.

Sashapineapple Sat 23-Feb-13 14:46:07

Babiesinslings 'I've never wanted to be spontaneous and change my plans and had to think 'no, I've not brought enough milk'. '
Me neither, and I ff. I think it's just another way bfeeders choose to justify them bf. To me it's rubbish you shouldn't have to justify yourself or put others down because they choose to do it a different way.

I certainly don't think I robbed my children of the gift of breast millk.. Were you actually being serious with that comment because it sounds ridiculous.
My children were never left to cry for milk because I pre steralised all the bottles and they had them room temp with the formula added as they needed them.

You keep believing all these myths about ff. I'm glad bf works for you and it sounds like you had an easy time of it compared to the majority of people I know who bf, but please don't patronise others for their choices.

I'm out of this thread now because I can see the way it's going to go.

lljkk Sat 23-Feb-13 14:46:21

I dunno, I have always been a bit scared of FF. Would feel like I didn't have a clue although it sounds easy in principle, and I've had a demo.

There was a very very long thread on here ages back (5-6 yrs?) about how there wasn't enough support for problems that FF parents have, and there was much discussion and description of unique difficulties faced by many FFing posters. None of them were about BF vs. FF, all of it was unique problems in FFing. So I don't know what to believe.

I'm too broke to FF. luckily I've had no problems bf and find it pretty easy at night. It's good to kmow ff'ers don't have to leave their bed at night either.

To the BF'ers who say their babies help themselves, at what age do they start doing that?

monkeysbignuts Sat 23-Feb-13 15:46:38

booyhoo i agree with you. a belly full of warm milk sounds much more sleep inducing than cold fridge milk :/
never made a middle of the night bottle thank god smile

And yy. Milk should always be warm. My room can sometimes be 17-18 degrees and I could never give my ds milk at that temp. Of course breast milk is warm to whoever said it isnt hmm it comes out of a 37 degree body!

monkeysbignuts Sat 23-Feb-13 15:52:59

lol mmmnoodle. it's surprising how warm liquid feels at 37 0c. i had two water births and it was body temp.

KatyTheCleaningLady Sat 23-Feb-13 15:54:54

I used warm tap water and never sterilised and nobody died. But, I also bf'd, so maybe that gave them superpowers or something. wink

SarahBumBarer Sat 23-Feb-13 15:57:10

There's still a dirty bottle to wash in the morning however easy you try to make the actual feed. Although I suppose I could just take the dirty bottle in the shower along with my boob.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 16:00:43

a dirty bottle to wash? not really that difficult TBH. i found taking apart and cleaning all the separate parts of the breast pump more of a faff than jsut washing a bottle.

ChairmanWow Sat 23-Feb-13 16:04:08

Oh snipe, snipe, snipety snipe. Dirty bottle, dirty boobs whatever.

Some parents BF. Some parents FF. There are numerous reasons for this, sometimes choice and convenience, sometimes necessity. Who cares? The babies are getting fed.

Clearly we can't have a 'handy hints for formula feeders' type-thread without the usual bullshit, a shame cos I found very little practical info on FF when we were struggling and I was quite enjoying this.

I'm outta here too.

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 16:08:39

Meh

curiousgeorgie Sat 23-Feb-13 16:14:05

FF doesn't have to be hard at all.

We did 10, 2, 6, 10, 2, 6 with DD from the day she was born.

I go to bed about 11 or 12, and take a just made bottle with me in a thermal bag (perfectly fine to keep for 4 hours.)

She wakes up at 2 and DH and I take it in turns to feed her each night.

Then DH gets up for work at 6 and makes a fresh bottle to give to DD before he leaves.

Then DD and I cuddle in bed till 10 where I find a lovingly prepared bottle in another thermal bag ready to feed her by my bed. (Thanks DH!)

I only ever had to wake up once every other night... Ever.

In contrast my SIL that breast feeds and has to do it all herself is knackered.

justonemorepie Sat 23-Feb-13 16:26:13

Getting DH to feed the baby? When I'm on mat leave? And he's got work in the morning? Er, no. Besides, can and did BF in my sleep.
Not all of us were lucky enough to BF in our sleep and also even on mat leave I still had 'work' to do looking after 3 kids and running the house so I ashamed to admit yes I got my DH to feed the baby-even at night grin

determinedma Sat 23-Feb-13 16:38:48

Make bottle up and keep in fridge. Take to bed in insulated bag and bung in bottle warmer while nappy changing. Job done.
No more agonising full boobs, cracked nipples, latch on problems, leaks....I have bf and ff and if I had to do it again would ff like a shot.
As an aside, of the three Dcs, the one with the most health problems with broken bones and low immunity is the one who bf longest!

SarahBumBarer Sat 23-Feb-13 16:49:17

But a breast pump is not obligatory. And I'd rather have no dirty bottle than one dirty bottle. I DO find BF very easy (I'm very lucky, I know - I'm relaxed about it, I've never had any discomfort etc - if I had I would have given up, I'm no martyr and no major bf proponent, strongly believe with the possible exception of gastro and diabetes there are no proven benefits to bf) I do it for one reason and one reason only - it is easy (disclaimer: for me). And having literally done it in my sleep I'm never going to be convinced that FF is not bloody hard work. With both my children I have returned to work when they turned 8 months and so we have moved to part bf part ff and the ff is a faff faff faff faff and I am delighted when it is over.

Even being back at work and with a DH who is primarily a stay at home dad I am only too willing to continue to bf at night (when needed) to avoid having to deal with bottles to the maximum extent possible as the entire family (me included) gets more sleep that way.

Isn't the point that it is horses for courses? Of course if you have cracked nipples, etc struggle to sleep-feed, panic about co-sleeping etc you might find bf hard - but those (like me) who do find it VERY easy are always going to think that even the easiest ff in comparison to the easiest bf sounds like a pita?

Are a lot of you suggesting things that are not actually recommended in terms of making bottles up hours in advance, storing them in certain ways etc or have recommendations relaxed slightly?

Peevish Sat 23-Feb-13 16:52:37

I agree about the comparative absence of tips and advice for FFers. I desperately wanted to BF, but turned out to have no supply and baffled any number of midwives, HVs, NCT/La Leche League advisers, BF consultants, my GP etc. After we'd (eventually) given up attempts at BF and turned to formula, I honestly felt at times as if I was asking how to score crack or something. I was feeling low about it all anyway, and the fact that it was so hard to find anyone who would talk about how to do it made it even worse.

We used the ready-made large bottles of formula despite the ruinous cost.

StoicButStressed Sat 23-Feb-13 16:56:10

<breathes deeply as frickin steaming at some of the nutsness here>

1 - OP made a valid point. And one that might help FF (since fuck all else 'help' is available??? INC. for those who CAN'T frickin BF even if they really, really wanted to).

2 - Suspect lack of help/advice for FF is down to the 'law' (& worse, the kinda 'smugness' IYKWIM of some BF - note, I said SOME, not ALL - Mammas) that you HAVE to BF. And if you don't, you really are looked down on (this is fact, not supposistion btw - a nasty fact that I had to endure simply as COULDN'T BF).

3 - BabiesInSlings: The truth is one person's convenience is another's hassle. But then I'd never sacrifice the gift of breastmilk for my child as it was a hassle - I'm really really REALLY hoping that you did not mean that the way it came across. As it comes across as beyond superior; sanctimonious; mean; judgemental - vs you simply APPRECIATING the fact you HAVEN'T had to 'sacrifice' the 'gift' of breastmilk as you were fortunate enough to one way or another be ABLE to bloody BF.

4 - After horrific and 'failed' BF attempts with DS1 that led directly to vicious PNI via that horrific sense of 'failure' (made WAY worse by other's comments/views/yada fucking yada), he and 2 other DS's were FF. Guess what? They're not dead and they are all thriving hulks of healthy creatures.

Flisspaps Sat 23-Feb-13 17:03:45

babies I bf DS to 9mo and I found your comment about 'the gift of breastmilk' unnecessary and sanctimonious.

To add - you don't need to sterilise bottles etc - a thorough wash in hot soapy water (or dishwasher hot cycle) is fine.

YY to the advice to make up the formula with hot boiled water - around 70c. This info is given on the formula packet (at least it is on cow and gate and SMA).

Water that's boiled and left to go cold isn't suitable. The heat in the water helps to kill bacteria in the powder not the water.

The WHO give guidelines for making up fresh but say that batch making formula and cooling/storing immediately in a fridge is the next best thing and give guidelines for that too which I think have been linked above.

I warm bottles (if necessary) in a jug of hot water as I don't have a microwave or bottle warmer.

When going out or to bed, I take a bottle in a cool bag with an ice pack.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 17:11:08

"But a breast pump is not obligatory. "

well i couldn't leave my breasts at the childminders.

StoicButStressed Sat 23-Feb-13 17:29:35

Booyhoo grin

Little cartons are great. DD was exclusively fed little cartons. I wouldn't dream of recommending this as I think it cost the best part of £2k, but it was the right decision for us.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 23-Feb-13 17:43:35

StoicButStressed Sat 23-Feb-13 16:56:10
breathes deeply as frickin steaming at some of the nutsness here

BabiesInSlings: The truth is one person's convenience is another's hassle. But then I'd never sacrifice the gift of breastmilk for my child as it was a hassle - I'm really really REALLY hoping that you did not mean that the way it came across. As it comes across as beyond superior; sanctimonious; mean; judgemental - vs you simply APPRECIATING the fact you HAVEN'T had to 'sacrifice' the 'gift' of breastmilk as you were fortunate enough to one way or another be ABLE to bloody BF

Hear hear!!

Babies I'm hoping you just worded things badly as if not then I'm disgusted by your comment. I tried to bf but failed as I had no milk, which despite pumping, taking fenugreek and going to a bf clinic, my supply didn't increase. It's great you managed to bf so easily, but to be so bloody sanctimonious about it is terrible.

Not everyone can do it. It's not a competition, you don't get a prize. I felt so guilty that I couldn't bf my DS and ridiculous comments like yours don't help.

I don't understand people that say FF is a faff. I make up all DS's bottles once a day. It takes all of 15 minutes. DP goes downstairs in the night, heats the bottle in the microwave for 45 seconds and feeds him while I make out I'm asleep wink What's hard about that?

monkeysbignuts Sat 23-Feb-13 17:58:08

apple your not following who guidelines by doing it that way.
from my perspective i would find ff a faff because i would follow guidelines and make each bottle when required.
if doing night feeds i would use a ready made carton, it's still more long winded that picking up baby and getting your boob out of your bra imo

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 23-Feb-13 18:02:42

In that case I dont follow the guidelines either as we fill the bottles with water then add the powder as needed. I'm not waiting 30 mins+ whilst my hungry DS screams. Less of an issue now he's bigger and sleeps through. We have used the cartons but it works out expensive.

I don't know anyone that gets up in the middle of the night and makes up a bottle. That would be a faff.

Flisspaps Sat 23-Feb-13 18:07:35

monkeys There ARE guidelines which tell you how to make up batches and store them safely. I do the same. It has been linked to above (I think) but the text in the WHO document reads as follows:

"For practical reasons, however, feeds may need to be prepared in
advance. The steps below outline the safest way to prepare and store feeds for later use. If refrigeration is not available, feeds should be prepared fresh and consumed immediately rather than prepared in advance for later use.
1. Follow steps 1 to 7 of Section 3.1.2. If using feeding cups, a batch of formula should be prepared in a clean, sterile jar that is no larger than 1 litre, with a lid. The prepared PIF can be refrigerated and dispensed into cups as needed.
2. Place cooled feeds in a refrigerator. The temperature of the refrigerator should be no higher than 5 °C.
3. Feeds can be stored in the refrigerator for up to 24 hours"

Flisspaps Sat 23-Feb-13 18:09:39

Pobble If you boil the water, put it into the bottle and wait 3 minutes (less if you're using less than 7oz of water) the water will have cooled to around 70C. SIL told me this and I was sceptical, however I checked with a temperature probe and it's correct.

Half an hour is the average time a full kettle of water would take to cool to an appropriate temperature.

No need to wait for 30 minutes at each feed.

monkeysbignuts Sat 23-Feb-13 18:11:24

i have pnd and get very stressed out about germs to the point that my hand are almost washed away lol.
it would sky rocket my anxiety levels. that's just me being crazy & ocd of course

Flisspaps Sat 23-Feb-13 18:15:36

And the WHO rationale for using water of 70C to make feeds:

PIF is Powdered Infant Formula.

"*2.2.5 Temperature of reconstitution water*
According to the FAO/WHO risk assessment (FAO/WHO, 2006), risk is dramatically reduced when PIF is reconstituted with water that is no less than 70 °C, as this temperature will kill any E. sakazakii in the powder.

This level of risk reduction holds even if feeding times are extended (i.e. up to two hours), and even if ambient room temperature reaches 35 °C. Consequently, reconstituting PIF with water no less than 70 °C dramatically reduces the risk to all infants, even slow feeding infants and infants in warm climates where refrigeration for the prepared formula may not be readily available (e.g. developing countries).

When PIF is prepared with water that is less than 70 °C, it does not reach a high enough temperature to completely inactivate E. sakazakii present in the powder. This is a concern for the two following reasons: a) A small number of cells may cause illness, therefore it is important that cells present in the PIF are destroyed; and b) there is potential for surviving cells to multiply in the reconstituted formula. This risk is increased when the reconstituted formula is held for extended periods above refrigeration temperature. Concerns have been raised over the use of very hot water for reconstituting PIF, but risk of E. sakazakii is only dramatically reduced when water at a temperature of no less than 70 °C is used (see Appendix 3). Currently, the instructions on many PIF products lead to PIF being reconstituted with water that is around 50 °C. But, according to the FAO/WHO risk assessment, reconstitution with 50 °C water generally results in the greatest increase in risk, unless the reconstituted formula is consumed immediately. Under no circumstances is risk reduced when PIF is reconstituted with 50 °C water."

monkeysbignuts Sat 23-Feb-13 18:21:38

fliss that is exactly the reason i couldn't use pif. it would worry me sick

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 23-Feb-13 18:23:11

Flisspaps Sat 23-Feb-13 18:09:39
Pobble If you boil the water, put it into the bottle and wait 3 minutes (less if you're using less than 7oz of water) the water will have cooled to around 70C. SIL told me this and I was sceptical, however I checked with a temperature probe and it's correct

Half an hour is the average time a full kettle of water would take to cool to an appropriate temperature

No need to wait for 30 minutes at each feed.

He won't drink it warm. Not even a little bit. We get spitting and pursing of lips if the teat goes near him. Cooling it takes forever (or it seems to when DS is doing his hungry cry).

Pobble - then make them up with water over 70 degrees, cool in a sink and put in the fridge until needed, that is preferable to making a feed up with cold water for the reasons already given.

I couldn't give a shiny shit if you think I'm being sanctimonious & judgey, mainly as to an extent I am. I found it extremely difficult with dd, I didn't just throw her on and away we went, I suffered extreme pain & for a short while (8 weeks, which felt like a lifetime) dreaded each feed. I saw several peer supporters and bf counsellor a. I was counting down to 6 months. but I recognised the importance. In the end I fed her to 29 months & luckily had no trouble with ds who I'm still bf at 10 months.

I am sick of hearing about people who couldn't feed. Yes, of course there are some people who for medical reasons, due to medication, or down to plain bad luck, can't feed their babies. I feel sad for them if that was what they wanted to do. It is estimated that this applies to around 10% of mothers. But way more than 10% use the excuse that they just couldn't feed, it was too sore, or they just weren't producing, my personal favourite, spouted most recently bu a friend of a friend who had to stop on day 2, as she just wasn't producing. Bunk up, it's still colostrum at that point.

The fact is that bf initiation rates in the UK are 81% with just 12% still feeding at 4 months. In Germany initiation is 90% with 63% still feeding or mix feeding at 4 months. So, are we physically different from our German counterparts? Or is it culture, advertising & attitude that are different?

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 19:28:53

Why should you get to be judge and jury on OTHER people's choices?

Flisspaps Sat 23-Feb-13 19:30:21

Well bully for you.

But this thread isn't about your struggle, or your unnecessary judginess about other women's reasons for stopping or not BF. It's pointing out that for women who do formula feed, it doesn't have to be a bloody faff in the middle of the night.

I am sick of women judging other women for their choices, when quite frankly, it's no-one elses fucking business.

I support women who BF, and I support who FF.

What I don't support is sanctimonious, patronising piffle criticising other women for making a choice that was right for them and their babies - either way.

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 19:31:16

Well said, Flisspaps.

Sashapineapple Sat 23-Feb-13 19:33:58

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

sunshine401 Sat 23-Feb-13 19:36:38

Its not a faff confused

Judge & Jury? Do I have sentencing powers!? Ooh.

I'm just really tired of hearing that people tried but couldn't. That will be true in a minority of cases, but short of the truth in others. It belittles how hard some people do try & how beneficial bm is. All this crap about few proven benefits. Evolution is rarely wrong (apart from male nipples, it's a bit weird, hormonally, there).

I have a friend who is currently expressing like a trooper to feed her second prem baby. She works at it & did the first time. She struggled & cried & had pain when ds1 was finally big enough to suckle, but she got through it as she knew it was worth it. I hate being in a room when someone tells her that they tried but couldn't, when what they actually mean is 'I found it hard & time consuming'.

I do have one friend who really tried but couldn't. She was anorexic & her body just couldn't do it. She had the formula backpack with tube by nipple. She was gutted but really had to stop for ds's sake.

Anyhoo, people can do what they wish and l/or need, no one has the right to say otherwise. Of course. But don't kid yourself or try to kid others about your reasons.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 19:39:35

"but I recognised the importance" to you. that is all you get to decide. what is important to you. everyone else and their dcs are none of your business and you dont get to judge their decsions based on what is important to, especially when it comes to what food they feed their dcs for 6 months out of their entire lives.

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 19:43:14

No sentencing powers. Just the power to be the reason that people don't feel able to ask perfectly valid questions about ff or bf. Because they are afraid of being lambasted by people like you.

Great that you struggled and managed. Not everyone can. Not everyone chooses to. And not everyone has the support and advice available to help them get over problems.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 19:44:46

its people like you who make it necessary for people to say they couldn't feed instead of saying they didn't want to. if they say they didn't want to they come in for a whole wave of "she didn't even try, so selfish, it's a precious gift blah blah blah" when in actual fact they should look at you with a confused face and say "none of your business how i feed my child"

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 19:46:47

and some things ARE more important than struggling through to prove that you can breastfeed. bf is not teh be all and end all and really if FF is more convenient for some then why the hell shouldn't they choose that from the off without having to justify it?

Figgygal Sat 23-Feb-13 19:49:51

babies I couldn't feed my baby I know I couldn't we ended up back in hospital day 5 with 12% weight loss supply never upped regardless of how much skin to skin, expressing, fenugreek bf counsellers we saw never had any engorgement or pain or leakage there was some milk could never express even an oz by hand or medela pump. if it isnt there it isn't there and after 8 weeks I called it a day what can women like me do? Carry on for the tiny amounts he was getting while his top ups got bigger and thats after he fought me to feed? Sometimes it's true some people CAN'T do it we don't say that to belittle other peoples efforts but by making out we are lying is fucking disrespectful

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 23-Feb-13 19:50:41

I don't understand Babiesgetcovered. What do you care what other mums feed their children?confused

FutTheShuckUp Sat 23-Feb-13 19:56:06

FFS babies. Im sure many people persevere until their tit falls off but do you really not understand that is THEIR choice, and not the solution for everyone? Why are you being such a sanctamonious oaf about this?

Figgygal Sat 23-Feb-13 19:57:45

Sorry for the further thread derailment and wish it hadnt gone down the predictable bf v ff trail but ignorance like that makes me raging

PleasePudding Sat 23-Feb-13 19:58:47

I BF DC1 despite difficulty and pain initially and after about 6 weeks we were pros.

When DC2 came along I was smug and certain believing the same as
babies How wrong can you be?! I couldn't get my daughter to feed properly, the latch wasn't working.

I sought help from EVERYONE, she dropped weight like a stone. I knew something wasn't working but didn't know what to do. She was hospitalised for weight loss almost had to be tube fed. I got mastitis and an abscess. If this has not happened to you you can NOT judge. You do not know it feels like - not just the pain and illness but despair and sense of failure. Finally a nice doctor whispered to give her a bottle and absolved me of my guilt that people like you babies perpetuate.

I don't know why we are different from Germany, that's an
Interesting point but I can tell you sometimes it doesn't work. DC3 due in two weeks and MIL thinks the same but I am pretty fucking nervous TBH.

I honestly think that sometimes formula like caesareans saves lives so why the hell does anyone get worked up about it if others need them.

Sorry that rant was looooong

But figgy I'm not making out you're , lying. I specifically acknowledged that some people have real trouble. I'd say that you are amazing for what you did. But there aren't many like you.

please that is what formula was designed for. That is actually my point. You're NOT making excuses, but doesn't it annoy you when people say they tried but, actually, didn't? Don't you feel that that belittles what you went through?

Good luck btw

FutTheShuckUp Sat 23-Feb-13 20:03:19

FFS who cares how many there are and more to the point how would you know? And more to the point if people LIE WHY DO THEY? Because they are sick of the usual guilt tripping shite spewed by zealots by yourself.
Now, in the OP please tell me where it asked for opinions on people who choose to formula feed/not breastfeed? Because I seem to be missing it

I typed a very long reply & my phone lost it, annoying.

I'm off to drink wine & chat with my lovely DH.

Booyhoo Sat 23-Feb-13 20:09:07

babies how would you even know which people 'really tried' and which didn't? do you ask them?

ChairmanWow Sat 23-Feb-13 20:11:15

Oh god I came back and checked. Gah!

I'm just really tired of hearing that people tried but couldn't. Oh how difficult for you to hear that. My little heart is breaking for you. Have you any idea, any bloody idea what it is like to flog yourself for weeks and weeks trying to feed and express for hours on end to find your breasts completely empty. To listen to all your NCT chums going on about how the stuff is squirting out of them and feel like a total failure because despite being determined to BF there's just nothing there. Then to be subjected to tuts and stares and nasty comments and sanctimonious bullshit like yours.

Oh and where do you get your stats from? Nobody recorded what happened to us in any kind of statistical analysis. Just more twathattery to beat up FFers and feed your inflated sense of self-worth. Well done. Your tits produced and mine didn't. Have a bloody medal, you clearly think you deserve one.

Don't you dare come on here, where several women have shared personal and distressing information about their inability to feed and whinge that you're sick of hearing it. Absolutely pathetic. Insulting and pathetic.

Why do you all let one stranger's opinion rile you so much?

If you know you tried, and your baby is thriving and it doesn't bother you, why do you care about one judgmental person.

Tbh I've never met anyone in real life who is judgmental about bf or ff. it's such a forum thing.

itsakindarabbit Sat 23-Feb-13 20:16:30

C this thread isn't about your struggle, or your unnecessary judginess about other women's reasons for stopping or not BF. It's pointing out that for women who doformula feed, it doesn't have to be a bloody faff in the middle of the night"

Thankyou fissplaps this exactly.

I started the thread after reading a thread on cloth nappies,actually...someone had spouted an aside about how they couldnt face ff as they would have to faff about with kettles, sterilisers and scoops of powder in the middle ofthe night.

It just struck me that it was a representation of ff i didnt recognise.

Fwiw i bf my first til 6 months. I co slept and fed in my sleep! I was alwYs too nervous to put the baby between dh and i so ifed from one side. Ended up with one massive boob and one that never got used at night and was tiny by comparison. I reme,ber being pawed all night during growth spurts.

Ff at night, a faff? Nope.

PleasePudding Sat 23-Feb-13 20:22:52

babies I hope you are having a nice time drinking wine and you do have a right to express your opinion.

I do still disagree with you though- I don't think a woman who says she can't do it without having an abscess or spending hours at support groups or whatever does denigrate what I and other people have been through.

I think whatever happens it's a really hard decision and extremely emotive and I would never do a mental comparison to see who had had a tougher time and really given it some welly. How would I know and even if they hadn't it's really not my business.

If you haven't FF its probably hard to believe the constant judgements you have to face and (like caesareans) it's really annoying having to justify your decision all the time - like you can't be trusted to make the best decision for you and tour family and your judgement should be constantly evaluated preferably with gory medical history included.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sat 23-Feb-13 20:24:56

Babies, your attitude stinks. Who are you to judge?

Are you saying that I failed to bf because I didn't try hard enough? That it wasn't important to me?

I haemorrhaged after giving birth, the midwives told me I had no milk supply as I was too anaemic to make any. Nothing made any difference to my milk supply. Nothing. And yes I tried. I expressed, I took fenugreek, I went to a bf clinic. Instead what happened was that my baby lost a shed load of weight and fell asleep on the boob as there was no incentive to suck, because there was nothing there.

So don't give me that sanctimonious bullshit that not being able to feed is just an excuse. You have no idea. How dare you.

Bf was always my plan, so when it didn't work out I felt like I failed. I failed my child. And yet you come on here and make people like me feel even worse. What gives you the right to be insulting and judge others? So you managed to bf, what do you want, a prize?

Get off your high horse, you just look like an idiot.

I second everything ChairmanWow has just said.

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 20:30:28

Oh bloody hell! I have the triple whammy!

I ff (tried bf, wasn't good at it, had no support from MW/HV or family, had no clue what I was doing and had very hungry twins). I used disposable nappies (no washing machine until kids were 4 years, no heating just a gas fire and so nowhere to dry nappies). And I had a caesarian (both twins breech and was told there was a 1/100 chance that one would die if I tried a vaginal delivery).

Please come and judge me.

PurpleStorm Sat 23-Feb-13 21:17:38

Personally, I think that if a mum has intended to FF from day one, and then says that they couldn't breastfeed, it's because they're worried about people like babies making all sorts of judgy comments if they're honest.

Implying that a lot of mums who say they had problems breastfeeding are lying and just couldn't be bothered is just going to upset all the mums who wanted to breastfeed and couldn't for whatever reason.

ChairmanWow Sat 23-Feb-13 21:28:07

C this thread isn't about your struggle, or your unnecessary judginess about other women's reasons for stopping or not BF. It's pointing out that for women who doformula feed, it doesn't have to be a bloody faff in the middle of the night". You're right Rabbit.

It was just such a stress that having to read some of this stuff is upsetting, and I guess I'm nervous because my next baby is imminent and feeding is already worrying me. A stranger's opinion shouldn't bother me or anyone else, we're not going to change anyone's minds by arguing on forums and this has ended up detailing the thread. Sorry for my part in that. I think I'll step away from feeding threads!

ChairmanWow Sat 23-Feb-13 21:29:02

<derailing> not detailing.

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 21:31:30

Yes but, Chairman, here should be the perfect place to ask questions and be reassured by other people.

FunnysInLaJardin Sat 23-Feb-13 21:33:30

it's all part of the propaganda innit. How difficult it is to FF and how easy it is to BF PLUS the weight just drops off you.............Arses

MardyBraWouldDoEddieRedmayne Sat 23-Feb-13 21:38:51

YABU. There is a Bf/Ff topic which I have HIDDEN.

FunnysInLaJardin Sat 23-Feb-13 21:40:16

formula back pack with a tube by the nipple. What the actual fuck is that all about? Oh and I tried in a really lame might have lost my mind if I had carried on kind of way. But obv my sanity is far less important than BF my child. lol

Fairylea Sat 23-Feb-13 21:50:07

Well I hated breastfeeding. I hated everything about it from the feeling, to not being able to share night feeds with dh, to the endless hours of feeding to establish supply and so on. But I'm not ignorant. I know breast milk itself is better but breastfeeding wasn't better for me as a mother.

So I gave up with dd after 6 weeks and I bottle fed ds from birth.

I pre make all my bottles with boiling water. I cool them in ice and put them in the fridge. Both of my dc have slept through from 12 weeks but if they did need a night bottle I'd use the microwave and swirl vigorously.

Do I care if others breastfeed? Nope. Not my baby. Not my body.

Is formula feeding abusive? No. The health differences can be argued non stop, ironically dd was breastfed and had non stop ear infections, ds touch wood has had nothing wrong at all so far. I was breastfed and I am riddled with immune problems. It's not clear cut.

So who gives a monkeys what people do? It's crazy.

Formula backpack with a tube by the nipple - took quite a lot of googling as it isn't mainstream. One of the great things about FF is that DD was no longer attempting to shred my nipples for the milk that just wasn't there, so I have no idea why you would want to formula feed with the baby still sucking your nipple - but each to their own.

willesden Sat 23-Feb-13 21:58:37

I wasn't able to bf as my heart stopped during em-cs and they broke two of my ribs getting it started again. We used the cartons of formula the whole time, because we were lucky enough to afford it and it was much less of a faff than powder. DS still wanted it warmed up though.

Cuddlyrunner Sat 23-Feb-13 22:05:40

I breastfed ds1 for 10 1/2 months until 2 months pregnant with ds2, I breastfed ds2 for 17 days, and I put ds3 on the bottle straight away. I had a condescending midwife tell the entire ward that I was artificially feeding ds3. (I had 3 ds under the age of 3).
In my day all bottles of milk were made up once a day and kept in the fridge.

Ds 3 now aged nearly 22 ,all 6 feet and 15 stones of him, has been safely delivered to his new home 150 miles away today.

Do whatever you can, BF if you can, FF if you can't. You need to be able to cope with your child.
After raising three ds into adulthood and being on my own pretty much for most of it, do whatever you need to that gets you through the day without weeping, and if you do weep, give yourself forgiveness.

Before you can turn around, they are adults leading their own lives.

Passmethecrisps Sat 23-Feb-13 22:29:30

breathe is the backpack not a supplementary nursing system? It can be used to top up breast milk when a baby appears not to be thriving.

Anyway. I thinks honest threads where people can find information on FF are vital. It can be a very lonely experience establishing feeding with a newborn - no matter how it is being done.

It is sad really that any discussion on managing FF always becomes a bun fight about BF.

Passmethecrisps Sat 23-Feb-13 22:32:39

Also, I think the stories people have are completely heart-wrenching. It does make me cross however that people are made to feel that they must justify how they feed their child.

I have NEVER met anyone in RL who is remotely interested in how I feed my child. I have only met one or two people in MN who have made me feel bad about it.

It's a tiny minority.

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 22:38:33

When you're stressed and unsure, it's the loud minority that you hear though. It's just really shit that some people forget that there is a person behind the keyboard and that that person might just need a bit of reassurance and thought.

And yes, of course this is AIBU but still there is no need to be a preachy judger, it really isn't helpful.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 23-Feb-13 22:45:57

Booy, Chairman, Fut, Rabbit, Pobble, and everyone else, you all did what was best for your babies. You did your best and found the best way for you and your babies.

Brilliant.grin

But making any decision for your children is hard. He'll you just have to look on MN to see that. One size does not fit all. You all found the best fit. Please pat yourselves on the backs.

It sounds as though Babiesinslings experience has hurt her and this is what comes across in her posts. It sounds like she went through a lot and has been left embittered by the experience.sad. She is striking out.

Seriously women, go look at your beautiful, loving, children and raise a toast to yourselves. You did your best and they're a credit to you.

Passmethecrisps - no idea what it is for, but it clearly isn't widely available and widely recommended, but FunnysInLaJardin mentioned it and I was curious.

EasilyBored Sat 23-Feb-13 23:01:16

When it comes to BF vs FF, please just tryand remember that you do not have to justify your feeding choices to anyone. Anyone who gets arsy and judgemental about it is, quite frankly, not worth talking to.

QueenMaeve Sat 23-Feb-13 23:29:50

When I switched to ff, dh did all the night feeds. I never asked him if it was bothersome grin

Passmethecrisps Sat 23-Feb-13 23:35:28

It certainly is an amazing contraption! I mistakenly name checked you breathe - I realise you had googled. Your googling was handy

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 23:42:50

Well, I'm most disappointed that no one has come and judged my parenting choices now. grin

TheDetective Sat 23-Feb-13 23:46:51

Flisspaps I bloody love you. Everything you said, yup. Spot on. You are a voice of sensible reason - I've seen you commenting on other threads, and never seen you give a bit of wrong information!

If anyone takes anything from this thread then make it this - the most important thing is that the water must be 70 degrees or above when the powder hits it 70 degrees is still damned hot. Almost boiling hot.

We make our feeds each day. We wash, and sterilise the bottles. Fill the kettle with fresh tap water and boil it. Then we fill the bottles with the correct amount of water that is hotter than 70 degrees, add the formula, shake, then pop them in cold water with ice in it. Then straight in to main compartment of the fridge. When he wants a feed, then they are warmed to room temp by means of a jug of boiled water.

It takes us 7 minutes for the kettle to boil and the bottle to warm. In that time, I go to the loo, and change his nappy, and I'd do those things whether I was BF or not. So I'd be up out of bed anyway.

I did BF at first and agree with the poster who found it time consuming and inconvenient. That was my personal experience too. Note the word, personal. I would have loved to found it hassle free. As it was, we had no problems at all with the actual feeding, great latch, plentiful supply etc. Except for the hour plus feeds, every 2 hours. With another child, I found it too much. I literally couldn't get out the house when BF. I couldn't do anything at all. Selfish it may be, but I had to put the needs of my whole family first. So I decided to FF after 3 weeks. Never looked back. It has helped that I can share feeds with DP, who is around much more than most dads, as he works part time. We really do share a lot of the care of our baby. And this works for us.

Good for you starting this thread OP, I don't think this is goading in any way. It is addressing the myths that surround FF. Same as threads addressing the myths around BF.

Some people are knobheads, and will always be knobheads. I chose to ignore knobheads. They can go to their own knobhead corner, and be a knobhead with other knobheads. grin

YouTheCat Sat 23-Feb-13 23:49:08

There should be a special section just for them.

Judgey Hoiky Pants Corner grin

TheDetective Sat 23-Feb-13 23:53:00

I forgot to say that THIS is the current advice for making feeds.

Yes it is best to make up fresh, but you can make up feeds the way I described above, and store in the fridge for up to 24 hours.

I forgot to add that formula can be used for up to 2 hours if made from powder, or 1 hour if it is from a ready made carton. Although you do need to check the label of your own formula, as some have different instructions to this.

TheDetective Sat 23-Feb-13 23:54:52

Please don't make them with cooled boiled water..... PLEASE!

Spread the word! I know HCP's have given people the wrong advice in the past, but it is very important.

Yep, I know people have done it, and babies have been fine, but I wouldn't want anyone to be the one person that did end up with a very sick baby.

TheDetective - I couldn't agree more. FF or BF, whatever suits your needs and circumstances, but if you FF then do it well.

Flisspaps Sun 24-Feb-13 00:36:35

TheDetective blush thanks smile

Everything I know I've learned from
MN. Lots of sensible advice on these boards - lots of cobblers too, it's just about knowing which bit to remember and pass on grin

midastouch Sun 24-Feb-13 00:45:49

What is with all the judging of people who FF? Ive never been on the formula/breast feeding boards, that isnt what this was about is it? I FF both mine, intended to BF my first but ive never known so much pain in all my life!! it was awful! I dont see the need to put myself through pain when there is another option! I didnt even try with my DD. Why is it certain people who have BF seem to think they are so much better than FF.
And its not hard to wash up bottles most people have dishwashers! so thats a pretty stupid argument

YouTheCat Sun 24-Feb-13 00:50:05

It's all a pretty stupid argument really. Because people should do what is best for them and their child and their families.

Skyebluesapphire Sun 24-Feb-13 01:05:16

five years ago when DD was a baby, the advice was to make each feed up fresh. however, my midwife said that we could make up 24 hours worth of feeds, and keep them at the back of the fridge and they would be fine. She had to stress that was not the official guidelines. So this is what we did from then on, made up 4-6 bottles at once, then warmed the milk up as and when needed.

DD was absolutely fine being fed this way. MW did however stress that bottles must be kept at the back of the fridge, not in the door as it wasn't cold enough.

StoicButStressed Sun 24-Feb-13 01:42:03

BabiesInSanctimoniousSling - If you really don't give a 'shiny shit' what other people think of your opinions, then why are you bothering to voice them?

Ditto, if you really don't give a 'shiny shit', then why post uninformed crap in response to OTHER MOTHERS[???confused] about the stats re BF probs and how most are 'lying'? Have you truly NO idea how offensive that is? I couldn't BF in spite of trying and trying (transpired I didn't have enough Prolactin), and as already said then had a bout of PNI so vicious my DS could have been left without a Mother - a PNI that was HUGELY worsened by the vile and judgy comments from others (NCT group et al).

So IF you really don't give a shiny shit about other people/their opinions, then prob best to NOT post shit that could send someone already struggling further into the abyss? Just a thought sweetpeaangry - enjoy that wine with your 'lovely' DH whilst hoping you haven't seriously damaged another Mother tonight.

recall Sun 24-Feb-13 01:57:41

midastouch yes the pain !!! and it wasn't cracked nipples, it was like a very bad deep bruising of the tissues. I asked the MW for gas and air when I was bf, and they laughed, but I was deadly serious. I tried and tried for weeks, I stood the pain, but the babies wouldn't latch on, I tried and tried, often in tears. I resorted to pumping it and feeding out of a bottle....exhausting sad

iclaudius Sun 24-Feb-13 01:58:53

Those cartons are not vegetarian

recall Sun 24-Feb-13 01:59:09

stoicbutstressed Prolactin ???? shock never heard of it....how did you know ? I'm off to google.....

gingerchick Sun 24-Feb-13 03:22:26

I ff my dd2 using these instructions on the aptamil packet

Boil freshly run tap water and leave to cool for 30 mins, unless otherwise indicated on pack. Measure required amount of water (refer to on-pack instructions) into a sterilised bottle. Do not use repeatedly boiled water.

Is this wrong then? Genuine question

recall Sun 24-Feb-13 03:25:22

sounds perfect to me gingerchick you are killing the any possible bacteria.

gingerchick Sun 24-Feb-13 03:28:51

Even if you only put the powder in after 30 mins?

Shagmundfreud Sun 24-Feb-13 07:07:34

Just to add to this - I do think if you're trying to reflect on people's experience with feeding their babies you need to take it in some sort of cultural context.

The ridiculous number of bad experiences and high fall out rate with breastfeeding in the UK is not intrinsic to breastfeeding per se - it's a reflection of the way we do in in this country.

There's no biological reason why UK mums should have such a hard time breastfeeding. It really does have everything to do with our expectations, the care we get in hospital and at home, and - sorry, this is an unpopular opinion - the absolute ubiquity of formula use in very tiny babies, even among mothers who want to breastfeed.

I would say to all mothers who are thinking about how they're going to feed their babies - you don't live in a cultural vacuum. The fact that you live in a society where breastfeeding is largely invisible, (even on hospital postnatal wards or on programmes like OBEM!), and is widely misunderstood, will very probably shape your experience of it and the way you feel about doing it, no matter how well informed about it or determined you think you are.

I honestly think that if you asked someone from a culture where breastfeeding is and always has been taken for granted (many African countries are like this, until fairly recently anyway), they would be staggered at the idea that outright breastfeeding failure is common in healthy women, and that even normal breastfeeding appears to tip loads of women in this country into postnatal depression.

Re: temperature of water - have you seen those special kettles that can boil the water to 70 degrees and then switch off?

here

Flisspaps Sun 24-Feb-13 09:02:46

gingerchick yes (providing the water is 70c after 30 minutes)

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 09:13:12

We would, of course, need to consider the fact that women who come from societies where bf is taken for granted do not come from a cultural vacuum either. Personally I would be extremely wary of assuming that we know what women from bf cultures would have to say about possible links between bf and postnatal depression. I mean, we're talking about hundreds of millions of people here. But even so, the fact that a person is from a particular culture doesn't automatically qualify them to talk about causes of PND there. Especially as research into PND is very minimal in some of the cultures you're talking about, so the women would be unable to do much other than generalise from their own experiences. Indeed, PND has not always been recognised as existing. We do know, though, that even before the existence of safe formula and advertising in our own culture, there were women who refused to bf. This indicates that some women have always had their reasons not to do it.

Ultimately, we don't know what the 'true' bf rates would be in a situation where women were genuinely free from undue influence, had information and had everything they needed in order to either bf or ff successfully. In the developing world, many people don't have the necessary facilities to ff safely. In the developed world, countries like the UK have formula advertising, and in countries where bf rates are high like Sweden there is a stigma to not breastfeeding. All of these things influence women and may limit their options. For those of us who are pro choice fundamentalists, and regard the biological essentialists and the people who mock women for bf in public as two sides of the same oppressive coin, none of these situations are desirable.

And BabiesInSlings, I can't imagine what made you think it would be appropriate to regale us all with your views on breastfeeding, on a thread for helpful tips about formula. I'm astonished at the level of egotism it must have taken for you to think anyone would give a crap.

MrsKeithRichards Sun 24-Feb-13 09:50:06

We wash, and sterilise the bottles. Fill the kettle with fresh tap water and boil it. Then we fill the bottles with the correct amount of water that is hotter than 70 degrees, add the formula, shake, then pop them in cold water with ice in it. Then straight in to main compartment of the fridge. When he wants a feed, then they are warmed to room temp by means of a jug of boiled water

This is the safest way to do it, don't make up bottles with Luke warm water. The new guidelines about making as you go and formula feeding being treated like a hot potato by health care professionals who won't or can't give advice aave lead to people doing all sorts of crazy shit preparing feeds, especially out and about.

Only one goady fucker on here. If you're so awesome and great at all things go on why would you even look at a thread about formula? Weird.

myrubberduck Sun 24-Feb-13 10:28:43

Excellent post chunderella. I will describe myself as a pro-choice fundamentalist from now on smile

SHag- I dont think that drawing comparisons with 'tradidional' socieities is very helpful. Your argument is like like saying that women in those countries manage without pain relief in chlidbirth so therefore women in the developed world shouldnt 'need' pain relief either. A woman in a developing country may have no choice but to put up with pain, abcesses, masistis or the sheer terror of a baby that is failing to thrive; in the west we do have a choice thank god.

Not denying that we do not live in a cultural vaccuum and i have no problem at all with the argument that bf should be normalised (and I agree that it really is not seen as simply normal in this country despite all the bf pressure that new mums get put under) However I am pretty sure that my feeding decisions were based on my personal circumstances and the issues that I faced with my child rather than Page 3 , formula advirtising, how I was fed as a child or whatever...

As for people like babiesinslings; well I think that you will find that attitude in a certain kind of person who puts themselves and probabally their babies through a very very tought time in order to 'succeed'' in bf and feels the need to criticise anyone else who has made a different choice in order to big up their 'achievement'

Its about as impressive as holding you hand over a candle flame- an achievement of sorts I suppose in terms of endurance, but a bit pointless really when you consider childrearing in the round.

StoicButStressed Sun 24-Feb-13 11:14:48

Recall Prolactin is the hormone involved in 'let-down'/milk production/lactation. Sadly, I only found out I was uber low on that hormone in a blood work-up by by OBGYNE a couple of years later - sadly, as in, it may have helped me at the time to KNOW there was a reason all my efforts weren't working.

Shag (fab name btwgrin) I think you make some really good points re culture/influences/expectations/advertising/the 'norm' etc, but find it really unfortunate that even in your pretty rounded post, you too use the word 'failure' - 'they would be staggered at the idea that outright breastfeeding failure is common in healthy women, and that even normal breastfeeding appears to tip loads of women in this country into postnatal depression.'

It's that sense of personal/maternal 'failure' per se that is so utterly demoralising when something you want and try so very hard at for your baby doesn't work; and then - by a country mile - what may feel an intrinsic personal failure (& at a time when your hormones are going nuts), is tipped into something WAY more brutal by other people's reactions - and I know THAT absolutely worsened my PNI. Ergo, I don't think the phrase 'breastfeeding failure can do anything other than exacerbate that view. Breastfeeding rates maybe? Or for people like me, breastfeeding inability?

Passmethecrisps Sun 24-Feb-13 11:16:15

Thank you chundrella

Also now labelling myself as a pro-choice fundamentalist

gingerchick Sun 24-Feb-13 12:37:34

Thanks fliss

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 12:42:38

Thanks ladies!

Another problem with the comparison to bf cultures in the developing world and PND is that recognition of and treatment of mental health problems in those countries is typically rather lacking (not that the UK is always a shining beacon). I'm no expert on the matter, but as an asylum and immigration lawyer I do read quite a few reports from people who are. To take the example of the most recent expert report I read, let's look at rural south-eastern Nigeria. BF rates there are high. Mental health treatment is extremely lacking, to the extent that many people either have to put up with their condition or are left to the tender mercies of the local traditional practitioner, witch doctor, whatever you want to call them. If you asked a woman from there about whether there's a link between BF and PND in her culture, odds are good that she wouldn't have the same conception of mental illness as us, wouldn't have heard of PND, and if she did she'd have very different ideas to us about the causes and would likely characterise it rather differently. That's not to say that there's necessarily a link between BF and PND, just that we wouldn't find out if there were one by asking someone from a culture where diagnosis of PND doesn't really exist.

monkeysbignuts Sun 24-Feb-13 12:52:38

i have breast fed all 3 of my kids but only had pnd twice, 1st & 3rd baby (oddly both boys)
anyway i firmly believe that my pnd was triggered/prolonged by months of sleep deprivation. my second child slept really well from 4/5 weeks old. both boys wake/woke every couple of hours. i want to stop breast feeding this baby but every time i try with more than one bottle a day he gets more sickly and windy. resigned myself to the fact i could be breast feeding for some time

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 13:10:15

Sorry to hear that Monkeys. Hope you're ok. Any chance of expressing and DP if you have one doing some of the night feeds? Or is it the bottle rather than the milk that's the issue? Sleep deprivation is bloody awful, the impact on health is well documented and it isn't a form of torture for nothing! I told DD this when she was a couple of weeks old, and threatened to take her to Strasbourg. She didn't listen.

Shagmundfreud Sun 24-Feb-13 13:39:05

Stoic - I take your point.

I don't like the turn 'failure to progress in relation to labour either so probably should use it in relation to bf.

Chunderella - there is a view that BF can sometimes protect women from PND. There is evidence to back this up.

Why, when women are depressed and not breastfeeding is there usually an assumption that feeding choice and method has played no part in her low mood? We know bf mothers have different - physiologically normal - (in terms of the biology of the postnatal period) sleep patterns, patterns and hormonal physiology. Why shouldn't this impact on mood in a positive as well as a negative way?

I think our expectations of what is normal in mothering are now so shaped by bottlefeeding having become the cultural norm that that its no wonder women who breastfeed often struggle with it emotionally.

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 14:10:12

Is there an assumption that ff hasn't played a part in PND? Indeed we have heard from women on MN who have been unable to BF that they think this might have contributed to their PND. As for doing what's physiologically normal, we need to ensure we're aware that the fact that something is what we have evolved to do doesn't mean there can't be negative side effects either. Evolution isn't perfect and there are a lot of tradeoffs. Hence for example the gene that protects against malaria but causes sickle cell. Or the evolutionary advantage to big heads for big brains leading to pain and sometimes problems in childbirth. It's physiologically normal to have a pelvis that isn't wide enough for a baby to come out easily, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt and that some of us won't die trying.

Additionally, evolution just isn't perfect for all of us. I, for example, typically have uncomfortable breasts and don't like my nipples being touched. I always feel hormone fluctuations in my breasts, they swell and hurt during PMT and were painful pretty much throughout pregnancy. And I think my ducts might not be as well protected as they should be. This is normal for me, it's not the norm for humans though I know it's not that uncommon either. Obviously, that makes me less likely to tolerate BF (I do not say this as any kind of special pleading for why I stopped BF, I'm uninterested in gaining the approval of anyone who might bestow it because poor ickle me had a valid reason- 'I don't want to' is reason enough). Which is an evolutionary disadvantage. So either this is a fault in the wiring that evolution hasn't yet bred out, or it's associated with some other as yet undiscovered benefit that cancels out the BF disadvantage. Either way it exists and managed to arrive in me after millions of years of evolution.

Lastly, I have never seen evidence that BF protects against PND, but assuming it's correct, that wouldn't mean it couldn't also be a contributory factor for some women.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 24-Feb-13 14:51:10

I personally wouldn't ff unless I had a medical issue that ment I had to but, I cannot bloody understand why in a country where more people ff than bf you cannot get sound good correct advice and support from HCP's about doing so.

Surely its about time to accept that mothers who do chose to ff may need a bit of support or advice about it.

monkeysbignuts Sun 24-Feb-13 15:15:22

Chunderella I have tried different types of formula and swapped from tommie tippee closer to nature to the anti colic one's and now trying dr browns.
I am desperate to start meds and get more than just 2 hours before being woken up

Jengnr Sun 24-Feb-13 17:05:02

The breastfeeding rates thing really gets to me. Who gives a FUCK?? As long as mother and baby are happy and well fed why does it matter how they get that way?

Anyway, to answer the OP, we FF and I don't find it too much of a faff. Up until recently we were using the ready made stuff, making up a few bottles of it at a time and warming it, but it's so expensive we've switched to the powder. We switch between making them up from scratch for individual feeds and making up a few at a time. I have a travel steriliser (cost me a tenner) and you can sterilise bottles individually - you just bung it in the microwave for three and a half minutes and it sterilises bottles and keeps them so for three hours. We sterilise the bottle, boil the kettle (with water not previously boiled, not sure why they say that but that's what we do), make it up then slam it in a sink full of cold water. After an hour or so we stick another bottle in the microwave so it's ready for next time. I have a box of powder at my Mum's and one at MIL's so I don't have to cart it round.

I also use the big steriliser and make a job lot up in advance using the same principle but then they go straight in the fridge.

I get up in the night (husband shares night feeds at weekends) take baby downstairs, stick telly on, warm bottle, feed baby then back up to bed. I'm lucky that my little one goes straight back down after feeding and so do I. I prefer to get up and come down because I want to make sure I'm not falling asleep when feeding him because I'm frightened of falling asleep on him and squishing him. I've never BF so I don't know if it's easier but I honestly don't find it a faff at all. Just make sure you remember to put the telly on with enough programmes to last until the end of the feed (teleshopping sucks) smile

StoicButStressed Sun 24-Feb-13 17:44:32

Monkey Had written a proper post to you and bloody net went down - grrrrr..

Wanted to say am feeling for you; bloody nightmare situation; also having 2 other DC's to take care of AND meds needed that you can't take yet as BF'ing. Truly, sending you HUGE un-MNy hugssmile.

Remember FF may take a bit of persevering but there is almost always a solution, just may take a bit of tweaking. And please please PLEASE do NOT let the (however small) fascist BF brigade in ANY way get you down. Childrearing and child-centricity are all in the round, and a wiped Mamma poss ill/getting iller is WAY worse IMHO than BF'ing at any cost. Have found some links below for you which may help with the wind (a lot of it is the angle, the flow speed, the way you hold baby, WHO feeds baby esp. when used just to smell of you/your undoubtedly lush boobies!).

Lastly, DS1 - who DID get colosterum(sp??!) via agonising and slow vile hospital 'pump' (I genuinely felt a cow being milked as I sat at it) was the ONLY one of my 3 who had ANY tummy or immune issues. I KNEW DSs2&3 were going to be FF and was prepped from get-go, and THAT time I was well, no PNI, and well able to ignore nasty and beyond ignorant comments from othersgrin. Good luck and hugs x

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/Pages/bottle-feeding-advice.aspx#close

www.easybabylife.com/bottle-feeding.html

www.helium.com/items/924237-ways-to-prevent-the-discomfort-of-wind-when-bottle-feeding-your-baby

www.askbaby.com/wind-the-causes.htm

Shagmundfreud Sun 24-Feb-13 18:03:54

"Who gives a FUCK?? As long as mother and baby are happy and well fed why does it matter how they get that way?"

Those people who care about babies having optimal nutrition.

You can't discuss this subject sensibly if you won't acknowledge that babies who are not breastfed are losing out on the benefits of breastfeeding.

ChairmanWow Sun 24-Feb-13 18:20:42

You can't discuss this subject sensibly if you won't acknowledge that babies who are not breastfed are losing out on the benefits of breastfeeding.

Veering a bit into judgypants territory there Shagmond. The 'evidence' often cited is very shaky and doesn't take into account socio-economic factors. For example obesity rates - children raised in socially deprived areas are more likely to be FF and have poorer diets which contain more processed food and saturated fats. This is far more likely to be the cause than the type of milk they were fed for the first 6 months of life.

Let's not find yet another stick to beat FFers with. Formula is perfectly acceptable for babies, as we all should know.

FutTheShuckUp Sun 24-Feb-13 18:24:11

Of course you can Shagmumd. Its just certain bores zealots are unable to do so.

Jengnr Sun 24-Feb-13 18:38:44

Words like 'losing out' are just more loaded words to try and make people who can't, or choose not to, breastfeed like failures imo.

There may be advantages but it's not proportionate to the guilt trips placed on mothers and mothers to be. It's not like bottlefed babies are dropping like flies or less healthy.

I don't think phrases like pro-breastfeeding or pro-formulafeeding help people either, nor statistics about breastfeeding rates across countries. Women who want to breastfeed should be given every support and encouragement and those who don't should be well informed about the best ways to ff and offered tips like those on here. Women should be were properly informed about both feeding methods rather than the current bombardment of breastfeeding propoganda with no real support after plus being made to feel like shit if you decide not to/can't give your child 'the gift of breastmilk' (or whatever other wanky phrase someone can come up with'. That way breastfeeding mothers would be able access help when they are struggling without feeling bad and bottlefeeding mothers wouldn't feel the need to make excuses.

The ultimate aim is happy, healthy babies with happy healthy mums. How you feed your child, as long as it's safe and appropriate, should not be a cause of unhappiness in either of you.

PolkadotCircus Sun 24-Feb-13 18:53:13

Of course you can as Shag what a silly argument. Parents make choices daily that don't provide the optimum for many things and are fully entitled to have an opinion and make contributions in discussions.

You know as well as. I do that the science re bf/ff is shite. I bet there isn't a single one of us on this thread that did the same thing. Some will have ebf for 1,2,3,4,5,6 weeks or months,some will have mixed fed,some will have bf then ff for however long.

I wonder who these mothers are that are giving optimum nutrition.Is it the ones that bf exclusively for 2 years but then do they get discounted if not providing a 100% organic veggie diet rich in 10 portions of fruit and veg a day with zero sugar?

Silly,silly,silly.

There are some benefits but the stats are small,the science is crap and often gets challenged with further studies.Those that want to bf should be given the support to do so,all mothers should have be able to me an informed choice which includes the info that making up formula safely is no more of a faff than the 101 other parenting things we do daily.

lesmisfan Sun 24-Feb-13 18:53:57

Oh please. I took up 2 bottles of cooled water and a divider of powder and tipped one into the other, hardly rocket science. BF was just as much faff, couldn't do it lying down go into the spare room and light on to get latched on. Yes, I know the formula rules, which incidently I have never heard of anyone IRL following, but more than happy with the way we did it.

YouTheCat Sun 24-Feb-13 18:58:21

In Shagmund's world bfing mothers should forego their own health for their babies. hmm

It is not helpful to bound into a thread, asking for ff advice, and start spouting off about how wonderful bfing is and how every mother should do it or she's a failure and isn't giving her baby optimal nutrition.

There are quite enough sticks for us to beat ourselves with, thanks.

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 19:02:17

You also can't discuss the subject sensibly if you don't acknowledge that while BF is usually best for baby, it isn't necessarily best for mother.

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 19:13:20

Sounds awful Monkeys. If bf is important to you and you'd rather not stop now, is there any way you could temporarily use a medication that's safe for BF?

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sun 24-Feb-13 19:23:26

Just another point. It takes two to bf.

MyDarlingClementine Sun 24-Feb-13 19:34:35

I love how militant some people are on these threads, I'd like to be a fly on the wall of thier homes and see how far they carry this stance in every day life.

I have only skim read but it does make me feel very very sad when people just totally discount the mental and emotional needs that a baby has from its mother aside from all the physical biology.

If it came to saying =- a baby should be BF but the mum cant do it/cope with it/ and will be under immense emotional pressure to actually care for that baby, Id say FF wins hands down?

MyDarlingClementine Sun 24-Feb-13 19:36:36

myrubberduck

"SHag- I dont think that drawing comparisons with 'tradidional' socieities is very helpful. Your argument is like like saying that women in those countries manage without pain relief in chlidbirth so therefore women in the developed world shouldnt 'need' pain relief either"

Shagmundfreud Sun 24-Feb-13 20:10:52

"Your argument is like like saying that women in those countries manage without pain relief in chlidbirth so therefore women in the developed world shouldnt 'need' pain relief either"

OK - shall we compare women in the UK with women in Norway?

98% are breastfeeding on leaving hospital.

over 60% of them are still exclusively breastfeeding at 3 months.

80% are still breastfeeding at 6 months.

Canada - 55% of babies still breastfeeding at 6 months.

Australia - 57% of babies still breastfeeding at 6 months.

Sweden 67% still breastfeeding at 6 months.

And all of these countries had low breastfeeding rates 20 years ago. In all of these countries formula is freely available.

In 2005 (the last feeding survey) only 25% of six months old babies were still being breastfed in the UK, and most of these are being mixed fed.

It really is VERY shit here. Unusually shit. The experiences of breastfeeding in the UK are NOT representative or normal breastfeeding even in most Western countries.

"If it came to saying =- a baby should be BF but the mum cant do it/cope with it/ and will be under immense emotional pressure to actually care for that baby, Id say FF wins hands down?"

If a mum can't or won't breastfeed a baby still has to be fed. Formula is the only safe way to feed a baby who's mum won't or can't give her own milk. That kind of goes without saying. A mum has a right to not breastfeed, and not be criticised for not doing so. But on a wider stage that doesn't make it wrong for people to raise concerns about how few babies in the UK are being breastfed. Babies are still losing out, and judging from the experience of other Western countries, this really isn't necessary or inevitable. We can change things so that more women choose to feed their babies on their own milk.

PolkadotCircus Sun 24-Feb-13 20:17:59

God who gives a shit,there are so many other things that many kids miss out on I worry about waaaay more.

And I am so sick of continuously having what mothers in other countries do held up as some kind of example to us all.

Shagmundfreud Sun 24-Feb-13 20:19:26

"You also can't discuss the subject sensibly if you don't acknowledge that while BF is usually best for baby, it isn't necessarily best for mother."

There are lots of things which are best for babies, that may be not best for mums. I didn't find breastfeeding comfortable, convenient or easy all the time that I was doing it, but hey ho, I'm an adult with a sense of perspective, and know that it's not going to last forever. Most people can still enjoy good mental health, enjoy life and enjoy their children, even when they're having to make choices that put their baby's needs ahead of their own. Christ, it's something we all do every day. Obviously if you dislike breastfeeding (or any aspect of parenting) so much it plunges you into a depression you have no choice but to sort it out or stop. It's still a shame that so many babies are being denied the benefits of breastfeeding.

All I'm pointing out is that there's something particular to UK mums or UK culture that makes unusually large numbers of women unable to cope with something that women in other cultures mostly find OK. (because women in all the other countries I've mentioned also have the option to stop breastfeeding, but tend not to in anything like the numbers that do over here). Go figure - it IS a cultural thing.

Zara1984 Sun 24-Feb-13 20:19:56

Right, so avoiding the whole BF/FF bolleuxe (and it is bolleuxe) because I already got my quota of that on another thread this week.

I really think whether BF/FF at night is a faff or not depends on your baby and your family set-up. (Like most stuff to do with parenting...)

FF for me is easy because we make up the day's bottles beforehand. When DS was in our room, when he would wake DH would go and warm the bottle (we live in an apartment so kitchen is in the next room) and bring to me to feed DS (or he'd do it himself). So that was easy. The bottle would be warm in the time it took me to change DS' nappy (he wouldn't go back to sleep without a clean nappy).

If I had been able to bf, it would've been ok for the first wee while as the crib was next to my bed and I could've brought him in. That would've been easy. But now that he's too big for his crib and we can't fit a cot in our bedroom - I would've had to get up, go to his bedroom etc. No less hassle than doing it with a bottle. I didn't have any problems with co-sleeping in theory (we tried it to help get DS to bf) but both DH and I would wake up in cold sweats and terrified that we'd squashed him, so it wouldn't have worked for us.

But for my BF mate, different story. Her DH sleeps very very lightly, so their DS was in his own room from day 1. So every time he woke up, she had to get out of bed, go into his room, get him out the cot and feed him. That sounded just painful for the newborn phase, especially!!

Another BF mate, her DS won't feed lying down, and the layout of her bedroom means that the cot has to be at the other end of the room, not next to the bed. So she gets him out of bed, and then has to prop herself up in bed to feed him.

I do think that people who only bf go on like stuck records about what a faff FF is. When it's not! How could it be that hard when (statistically) most UK parents do it, day in day out?

Shagmundfreud Sun 24-Feb-13 20:23:01

Polkadot - caring about babies having the best nutrition doesn't exclude me from caring about other aspects of their welfare.

I know people who dislike breastfeeding advocacy want to paint it as obsessed with breastfeeding to the exclusion of all else, but really, most people are sensible. They realise it's not an 'either/or' situation. That the lives of babies and small children can be improved in lots of ways, more breastfeeding being one of them.

PolkadotCircus Sun 24-Feb-13 20:26:11

We make compromises daily re parenting choices.

Why oh why do some mothers chose this particular one to bang on and on about?

Here's a suggestion chose another one,there are plenty of pretty weighty issues to pick from,might liven things up a bit.

When people say FF is a faff, are any of them parents who have tried to FF?

I ask because the people who tend to bang on about BF being better and trot this out as a reason seem to me to be unlikely to FF so are unlikely to have got into the swing of preparing formula and doing formula feeds.

Parker231 Sun 24-Feb-13 20:32:14

This type of thread is as old as time. I hate when others judge new parents decisions especially when it comes to bf v ff. I never wanted to bf - didn't try. Firmly told the hv and hospital that I didn't need/want to discuss this - DH is a gp so I had all the information I needed to make the decision (with DH). Both DC's were healthy happy babies who slept 8hours at night from 12 weeks. I went back to ft work when they were 4 months so DH and took it in turns to do the late feeds/disturbed nights. He's more of a morning person than me so I got the lie in at the weekends - all this couldn't have happened if I had bf

Zara1984 Sun 24-Feb-13 20:33:27

You illustrate my point perfectly Parker, BF would've been a massive faff for your family, whereas FF was not.

MyDarlingClementine Sun 24-Feb-13 20:37:03

Shag

" I didn't find breastfeeding comfortable, convenient or easy all the time that I was doing it, but hey ho, I'm an adult with a sense of perspective, and know that it's not going to last forever. Most people can still enjoy good mental health, enjoy life and enjoy their children, even when they're having to make choices that put their baby's needs ahead of their own."

hey ho.....

Can I ask just because you found something easy what on earth that has to do with the other billion ladies in this world who are all entirely differnet to you with different bodies., brains, circumstances and lives.

I always find that ....I slightly uncomfortable...sort of ...." Even I Queen of all birth related matters found pushing out several 13 pounders on good breathing technqiues alone whilst simulatenously BF the rest....can do it - why cant you lot?

MyDarlingClementine Sun 24-Feb-13 20:40:41

Polka

I wonder if its because they feel they are failures in other areas of parenting, so they cling to the fact they made certain choices and therefore are good DM's.?

Its bloody odd! The whole of parenting coming down to one or two choices...that are physical.

waterrat Sun 24-Feb-13 20:58:29

In support of Shagmunds comments - I feel that there is a refusal now in discussions about bf/ ff to allow anyone to say that breast milk is better for the baby. It is seen as somehow an attack on others - how can we have got to this point?

Formula is great. I mix feed my own son and am so glad formula exists - it makes my life easier and I am a happier person for it.

BUT - breast milk is better, especially for newborns - and children OVERALL - statistically speaking - are better off breastfed.

Of course it is normal to care how other peoples babies are fed - just like you can care about lots of societal issues. I think it is sad that BF rates are so low in the UK - that is not a judgement against individuals, it is a general point about overall levels of breastfeeding.

and - of course lets have much more discussion about safe and healthy ways to formula feed - as that is how most babies in the Uk are fed.

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 21:02:56

While I don't wish to discourage you from sharing your BF experiences, Shagmund, they don't actually have anything to do with whether it's best for all women to BF. It looks dangerously like you're attempting to dismiss the feelings of women who dislike BF- because you only offered the get out for women who have a psychological reason to stop. That's taking us into the realm of biological essentialism, which historically hasn't served women well.

And I don't dispute that our rates of FF are a cultural thing. It's just that high BF rates are also a cultural thing, linked either to the unavailability of other viable options (developing world) or stigma to not BF (developed world). If you problematise UK attitudes to feeding because of the existence of cultural factors, you need to do the same for every other society where there are cultural attitudes to feeding, ie all of them, if you want to be taken seriously. We know that people are influenced by what they see around them and how others think of them, be it advertising in the UK or societal disapproval of FF in Sweden. As I posted earlier, we don't know what 'true' BF rates are because there aren't any societies where women are well educated about the proven advantages to baby of BF, are able to FF safely if they want to, can BF as long as they like without it impacting on finances and will not be stigmatised because of feeding choices, be it FF from day 1 or BF a 6 year old.

iclaudius Sun 24-Feb-13 21:07:05

Bf may protect a mother from pnd??yeah??
In the case of D- mer sufferers it may contribute to pnd

TheDetective Sun 24-Feb-13 21:17:03

Excuse the shouting...

But....

THIS THREAD IS NOT TO DISCUSS THE BENEFITS OF BREASTFEEDING!!!!!!

It is to dispel the myths around 'bottlefeeding is a faff' and to give tips and advice to mothers who choose to bottle feed.

Quite frankly, there are many other threads out there to discuss breastfeeding in whatever means you wish. I'll see you on those, I've plenty of advice and information to offer on both methods. So, kindly, do fuck off and post on other threads, or start your own.

As you were.

Zara1984 Sun 24-Feb-13 21:17:44

I'm from a BF shining light country (New Zealand). Have got mates who've had babies in the past 12 months in Sweden, Norway, Canada and Australia too, also big BF nations. I had my baby in a baby-friendly (ie supposedly pro bf) hospital in Dublin and I had the worst post natal experience by a long shot compared to my mates.

The difference in rates is down to post-natal support. That's the long and the short of it.

Tell you what though, there's not anywhere the same degree of argumentative shite about bf/ff in New Zealand. Ok there's a bit in the media but nowhere near as bad as in UK & Ireland.

Zara1984 Sun 24-Feb-13 21:21:11

<hides behind couch> I'm sorry Detective!! I couldn't help it, I posted initially about the faffiness/not faffiness of FF and then I got sucked in!! Argh confused [gin]

Threads comparing any element of FF & BF are like a black hole!! We all get sucked in and then get verbal diarrhea.

<slaps self in the face> Right. Back on topic. As I said in my other post. YANBU, OP!!

itsakindarabbit Sun 24-Feb-13 21:21:53

Well sad, thedetectives.

I honestly think that some people want ff to be a faff. Like the faff should be a punishment or something? I found ff piss easy. Sorry if that upsets some of you.

ChairmanWow Sun 24-Feb-13 21:22:27

BUT - breast milk is better, especially for newborns - and children OVERALL - statistically speaking - are better off breastfed.

Statistically speaking - you hit the nail on the head there. Studies which demonstrate improved outcomes for breastfed babies almost always disregard other contributory factors, such as social deprivation. When those factors are removed the only benefits are a reduction in stomach bugs. Studies comparing BF v FF children in the same family found no difference in health outcomes.

Besides which I don't see many threads where parents who boil their broccoli are berated by those who steam, y'know. There are a million choices we make for our kids which affect their health. Let's get a sense of perspective on this.

PeazlyPops Sun 24-Feb-13 21:34:52

There are a million choices we make for our kids which affect their health. Let's get a sense of perspective on this.

YY!

waterrat Sun 24-Feb-13 21:40:31

I have to say chunderella I have found your posts interesting and have made me think - you are right to warn of the danger of assuming that women in countries with high bf rates are doing it from complete freedom of choice. I still think that as shagmund says, our culture mitigates against establishing bf in many ways - expectation of how often a newborn needs to bf for example - I think it is not made clear and it can seem very overwhelming ...and the difficulty of feeding in public etc

But anyway - you make thoughtful points .. And - I agree that there may be many women breast feeding around the world who would love to have the option to mix feed but can't afford it or feel unable to admit it

MyDarlingClementine Sun 24-Feb-13 21:44:29

chairmanwow

" Let's get a sense of perspective on this."

Sadly a sense of perspective is something that some posters lack, they seem very blinkered and keep on cranking out stats.

Stats are very useful used - in a context.

They are not the whole picture and never ever are.

Some people fail time and time and time again to grasp this.

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 21:48:52

Studies do usually try and control for social factors, but it's easier said than done dredges up memories of long off political sociology lectures from the depths of murky brain. It's particularly difficult because so few babies from the most deprived societal groups are EBF, so we simply can't say for sure how they'd be doing if they were because there aren't enough of them. I'm not blaming the people doing the research btw, they do the best they can. It just isn't an exact science.

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 21:55:31

Waterrat I don't disagree. There are women in the UK who would have liked to BF and were prevented from doing so for reasons that could have been easily dealt with, and that's unacceptable. If we are pro-woman, we have no choice but to be angry about this. Someone upthread characterised our fucked up situation very well: constant exhortations to BF and being told the only partial truth that breast is best, then sod all support to actually do it, and insufficient information about safe FF mixed with predatory advertising.

Shagmundfreud Sun 24-Feb-13 22:37:01

"Statistically speaking - you hit the nail on the head there. Studies which demonstrate improved outcomes for breastfed babies almost always disregard other contributory factors, such as social deprivation".

No they don't.

Not modern ones.

In any case, why on earth do we need studies to tell us the blindingly obvious, that fresh human milk is a more complete and more nutritionally appropriate food for human babies than chemically altered animal milk, which has been dehydrated and then rehydrated with tap water? Really? And if a baby is getting a food which isn't 'complete' (and formula can't be said to be 'complete' if it doesn't contain all the elements found in breastmilk) why does it surprise us if this manifests itself in health and developmental differences like patterns of weight gain, arterial stiffness, IQ, vulnerability to infection, SIDS, diabetes etc?

Seriously - why is it seen as eccentric and extremist to think that the sole food a baby is fed on for the first six months of life might influence health and development in the short, medium or long term, in a whole host of subtle or not so subtle ways? Breastmilk and formula ARE NOT THE SAME. Why do we expect them to have EXACTLY the same effect on the growing body?

TheDetective Sun 24-Feb-13 22:42:16

CAN YOU PLEASE START A NEW THREAD IF YOU WISH TO DISCUSS THIS!!!

ARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chunderella Sun 24-Feb-13 22:56:18

It would be eccentric if you were claiming it without sufficient evidence to back you up, Shagmund. By all means make a hypothesis, but call it what it is. And sorry, but controlling for social factors is rather more complex than you seem to allow. In a society where so very few of the poorest children are EBF, we just don't know how they'd be faring if they were fed differently. Inevitably we are in the realm of educated guesswork. When we're talking about relatively small proven differences in the health benefits of BF, which we are, that lack of certainty matters.

Shagmundfreud Sun 24-Feb-13 22:58:35

Breastfeeding reduces pain in babies undergoing tests

pain

Better behaviour and relationships in term babies breastfed for long periods in infancy
behaviour

Large study showing better mental health in children and teenagers breastfed as babies mentalhealth

Just a few - you can rubbish them (best read them first! Full texts pls!) but there are many, many others, produced by reputable organisations, many involving large samples, all (when relevant) controlling for confounding factors such as age, education and parental income.

Some of the things we're asking questions about now are things that most mothers would never even consider as relevant to feeding method. For example, did you know that children bf as babies are more likely to respond positively to medications used to prevent repeated and prolonged bed wetting? The suggestion is that synapses function better in these children because of the range of fats in breast milk which are believed to promote optimal brain development.

And this isn't wacky of fringe research. This is research produced by reputable organisations, is peer reviewed, and is listed on the UNICEF website. Doesn't mean you're not allowed to find fault with it, but I think it's fair to ask you to read it IN FULL before picking it apart and dismissing it.

I think it's COMPLETELY reasonable for people to be strongly supportive of efforts to increase bf rates in the UK on the basis of current evidence, and they shouldn't be vilified, as is currently happening all over the media (and on mumsnet) for expressing the opinion that breastfeeding is important for babies.

Zara1984 Sun 24-Feb-13 23:07:22

Shagmund, why do you always come and do this

Your links are certainly very informative but this is not the thread for them, as Detective points out.

EasilyBored Sun 24-Feb-13 23:18:53

Of course breastfeeding is important, and we should be doing whatever we can to promote it and try and increase the numbers of people doing it for longer. But there will always be a balance between doing the best thing for the baby and doing the best thing for the mother. I think I would have BFed for longer if anyone had been even remotely honest about the realities of it while I was pregnant, expectations have a lot to do with your exerience I think. BUT even when we're not talking about depression or PND, should mums keep doing it even when they are utterly miserable and hating it every feed? I got to point where I found myself thinking of ways I could put off giving DS his next feed because I just hated it and knowing he was going to vom the whole lot back up and want another feed straight afterwards was just soul destroying, and there was nothing wrong with him or with me (I had plenty of milk and hardly any pain beyond the first few days). Parenting is a balancing act, and for some women, the benefits of breastfeeding just don't outway the negatives.

Shagmund - do you know how to start a thread? If so, then please do so for all of this information which is not relevant to the thread. If not then please ask another poster to do so for you.

midastouch Sun 24-Feb-13 23:26:54

for goodness sake, have you nothing better to do than look up breastfeeding, arent you such a wonderful mother because you breast fed, your child will grow up perfect now well done, congratulations! It is quite frankly none of your business and you should not be concerned about other peoples babies! I for one do not appreciate basically being told the damage im doing by FF. I think you may actually be on the wrong thread though as i cant see why someone so pro BF would be on this one....

YouTheCat Sun 24-Feb-13 23:33:11

Exactly. Really not helpful.

I rink it is helpful. There are plenty on here saying it doesn't matter how you feed your child. Ff & bf are the same. They're not. At a very base level breast milk contains antibodies & enzymes that formula doesn't. It is also beneficial in the ways shangmund points out.

There are clearly a LOT of people on here who don't know that. Isn't it better for people to be able to decide whether or not to bf or continue breastfeeding despite problems, based on full & proper information? Surely everyone can agree on that?

Easilybored I feel sorry for your experience, mine was similar up to a point & I have a friend who is going through it with her second Dc, but she knows the benefits & she knows that this feeling/the sucky stage will pass& feeding will become much easier.

I agree that pro-breasting advice is often to blame for cessation of bf. I think there is a lack of realism about the potential pain, how long feeds can take etc. so when people do feel ghexommon initial pain, they think they aren't doing it right, can't do it & should quit.

I think shag makes some very reasonable points, politely & reasonably. The voices in response are angry & hysterical. If peoe really want a balanced thread that is helpful to those yet to select their method, then it did need to be balanced with some bf information IMO (which I'm aware none of you care about).

Perhaps in future MNHQ need to ban feeding threads from aibu & make them stick to the feeding board where people who are directly interested, rather than those with a passing opinion can search them out.

ChairmanWow Mon 25-Feb-13 07:37:20

A passing interest? You seriously think the posters contributing to this thread only have a passing interest in how to feed our babies?

The issue is that this thread was aimed at FFing parents to help make night feeds easier and has turned into a slanging match led by a thankfully small minority who can't tell the difference between advocacy and zealotry. It has led to women who experienced a lot of distress at not being able to BF being made to feel guilty all over again about our 'failure', and those who did it by choice as is their right being accused of not giving a shit about their babies' nutrition.

This kind of behaviour doesn't belong on any board.

PolkadotCircus Mon 25-Feb-13 07:43:25

Yup know about the enzymes but sorry still not enough,weighed it up like any other choice.

And Shag mental health,behaviour- seriously PMSL grin

You do realise why that is just ridiculous.

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 07:46:25

Indeed ChairmanWow. Last time I checked the title of this thread wasn't "Please list for me in great detail the benefits of breastfeeding and breastmilk".

The only hysteria I can see are from those posters who feel it is their duty to spread the Good News to others, whether they asked to hear it or not.

But there is a load of tosh on here about bf, there just is. A lot o misconceptions spouted as fact. So, as for 'coming in here....' That'll be why.

Yes mental health etc, why PMSL? It's to do with the fatty acids found in bm & development of the early brain function leading to later synapse development. Why does this trouble you?

Oh & I don't think this thread was aimed squarely at ff parents who will have no doubt largely works doubt the kinks, I think it was more likely aimed at those yet to decide or on the cusp.

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 07:57:13

The fact of the study and the information in it doesn't bother me babies, it's just that it's so fucking tiresome that many times there is a thread remotely to do with FF, a certain group of posters come along with "Didn't you know that XYZ study shows that breastmilk prevents the likelihood of your child becoming a yob? IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT I COME AND TELL YOU THIS"

I mean what do you want these people who FF to say? "God you're right, I am SUCH a shit parent. How did I not see the light and give breastmilk to my child. Shame on me for making a choice that best suited my circumstances and enabled to do the best job I could about parenting. Please could you call social services on my behalf to come and take my poorly nourished child away"

Do you see what I mean?

PolkadotCircus Mon 25-Feb-13 08:04:22

Because a) the science is crap b) even the dept of health don't think this is a benefit worthy of mention and c) poor mental health is caused by a whole host of things such as poverty,debt,unemployment etc,etc,etc

I should think genes and childhood history might have a not small part to play too.Logically speaking but then who needs logic or common sense.

I'm sure there are many who could enlighten us.

Formula feeding- ha,ha,ha.Do give us a break from the scaremongering and stat twisting as I for one tend to switch off the minute it happens.

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 08:13:27

Can we just end this thread here? Fuck I am so tired of this rubbish, on so many threads.

You won't find a greater supporter of bf mums (and ff ones too!) than me but this is sort of thing is not about supporting parents and babies' health.

<bangs head against brick wall>

ChairmanWow Mon 25-Feb-13 08:21:23

YY to that Zara. It's going round in circles. Shame really but we're not going to get back to the purpose of the thread now and this will go on forever.

polka there is a difference between linked to/may help prevent & causes/prevents. Surely if you consider the other factors & see that your child may be prone to mh issues & you read that bf may help, you might. You think the science is crap? Interesting. What was the last paper you had peer reviewed?

I was ff. I never witnessed anyone bf until I was we'll into my twenties. I thought they were the same & that only mad hippies bf. I am educated & live I an affluent area. Even when I got pg with dd1 at 29 I just assumed it'd ff. then I started to research. Info on formula (albeit over 6 months using images of 3 month olds ) is everywhere. BF info, all of 4 years ago was patchy. I found many threads saying how hard bf was & how they're so glad they switched to ff on other not to be named fora. I came here & found a ff v bf thread which was thought provoking & informative, on both sides. If I'd have found this thread, minus the bf comments things might have been different.

I very happily fed dd to 20 months (pg with EC when I stopped) now feeding DS at 11 months. I have a lot of very good reasons for being extremely glad I bf. I won't bore you further.

I like balance. Previously this thread was rammed full of comments like bf is expensive too, re special clothes & other such guff, how is a manly boob any different to an unsterilised bottle (?wtaf) etcetc

waterrat Mon 25-Feb-13 09:20:42

The anger towards anyone who dares to write anything positive about breastfeeding is astonishing - I'm always amazed by it. This thread was full of inaccurate comments about breastfeeding - ie. as babies above says - 'manky' boobs being compared to unsterilised bottles? absolute madness.

People who do not breastfeed seem to want to shut down any conversation about breastfeeding - and the science is not crap, for gods sake - please go and read the latest Save the Children report on how many hundreds of thousands of children die each year because they are not breastfed - NOT just because of unsafely made milk but because it is not as good as providing immunity from illness. a recent study showed that the NHS here in the developed UK would save millions on treating children each year if more children were breastfed.

It provides a level of immunity that formula does not match - that does not mean formula is bad - I use it! its great! But - there is a complete unwillingness to listen to open discussion about the benefits of breastfeeding.

And also - what I find hard to stomach is the accusation that FF is demonised - MOST PEOPLE FORMULA FEED! It is breastfeeding that is painted as 'smug, unncessary, no better than the synthetic alternative' - in some parts of the UK, particularly the poorer parts, young women do not even consider breastfeeding - even though it is free and it is the best food their baby could have. I consider that a public health issue - a major one. So - I, and others, will continue to try and raise this issue on a thread that was clearly set up to argue that formula is a good and easy way to feed your baby - fine, it is - but this is the internet so there will be debate!

TheDetective Mon 25-Feb-13 09:28:13

Are you telling me that other people's opinions are invalid babies.

You come across as an ill informed person, judgemental and condescending.

God forbid someone who is on the cusp of choosing how they feed their baby finds this thread. Because of you, not because of people giving information on the safe and correct ways to prepare formula.

Look how many people think it is okay to prepare formula with cooled boiled water. And look at posters like myself who have directed people to online information on how to safely prepare it. What the fuck does that have to do with breastfeeding.

For what it is worth, I think breastfeeding is utterly wonderful. I am a HUUUUUGE advocate, but I am also a huge advocate for women's freedom to choose what is right for them.

And as far as I can see no one on here has said breast and formula are the same. Every fucker knows they are not. It is still a perfectly valid way to feed a baby. And deserves to be able to be discussed without knobs like you coming along and spouting your vitriol all over the place.

TheDetective Mon 25-Feb-13 09:32:58

Having done both waterat I am saying this thread isn't the place for a bf debate. Why can't ff be discussed without bf stats being thrown at people?

It's unnecessary and cruel to people who want unbiased information. It is almost impossible to get unbiased feeding information as it is, everyone has an agenda. Why can't you just leave people alone to make their own choices?

Yes waterrat

Actually, I had steered clear of this thread for days until a string of people posted saying that ff & bf were the same, big deal, no different etc the detective

PurpleStorm Mon 25-Feb-13 09:43:51

I don't think that anyone would argue that, in general terms, breastmilk isn't best for the baby. I think that most mothers, whether BF or FF, are well aware that breastmilk is best for babies.

However, breastfeeding can be a very difficult / impossible skill to learn for a variety of reasons, and it's not always best for mothers, whether for emotional, physical or cultural reasons.

I think it's a real shame that a thread that started off by offering useful advice on how to FF safely and without unnecessary faffing has been derailed by people who are intent on arguing about the feeding choices mothers are making, or have been forced to make because of their circumstances.

Especially as the title of the thread makes it clear that this thread is about forumla feeding, not FF vs BF.

PolkadotCircus Mon 25-Feb-13 09:44:10

Nobody has said that far from it.

People have tirelessly said there are advantages however there are advantages in most parenting choices.Peope have weighed up the pros and cons like any choice.

Many posters are sick and tired of this particular choice being held up and used to beat up mothers with.Choose another one.Red meat,sugar or screen time might be some good ones to start with,far more reliable "studies" and scarier stats if that floats your boat.

Posters are also sick had tired of the scaremongering and stat twisting which are blown up out of all proportion.

You mother your children and make your choices,let others do the same,you never know instead of switching off mothers might listen more to your cause.

Thingiebob Mon 25-Feb-13 09:44:12

to point out that formula feeding doesn't necessarily require you to be sterilising bottles and scooping out powder in the middle of the night..

If you cannot afford the expensive ready made cartons, then it IS a faff.

End of thread surely?

PolkadotCircus Mon 25-Feb-13 09:53:34

Depends on the definition of faff.Trying to coax a half starved baby to latch on properly all night and not cause immense pain was what I called a faff,preparing bottles which took all of 5 mins not.

hamdangle Mon 25-Feb-13 10:06:48

I always read on these threads lots of shouting about how breast feeding rates are down because of lack of support, because of formula advertising, because people are ignorant about breast feeding and information is kept secret, because bf is seen as shameful In this country and I think it's all bollocks. Surely we have more access to information than ever and if more people choose to ff then maybe it's because in this country we are free to make choices about what's best for us.

I have two DCs 16 years apart and the level of bf support I was given for both was excellent (with DS1 a nurse massaged my gigantic boobs for an hour while I bfed baby! And I was encouraged to stay in for four nights till milk had come in). I wasn't, on the other hand, given any advice or info About formula. At anti natal classes for both (attended at two different hospitals in both England And Wales) we were given advice/leaflets about Bf and watched videos but were told nothing at all about formula and how to make it safely or how much or how often to feed etc. despite this at both groups most women formula fed. I think it's because most women do what's best for them and their family. They have weighed up the pros and cons and have made a decision that has fuck all to do with anyone else and to say that anyone who does so is misinformed is crap.

whathellcall Mon 25-Feb-13 10:07:18

In the interests of balance, another one here who barely has to open an eye for night feeds. grin

Btw also agree with babies this thread title comes across as aimed at thosewho are trying to decide on feeding methods. Surely people already ffing already have their nightfeeding routine sorted and won't be particularly benefited by the observation that ready made cartons exist.

itsakindarabbit Mon 25-Feb-13 10:08:54

"Btw also agree with babies this thread title comes across as aimed at thosewho are trying to decide on feeding methods"

Nope, you're wrong.

Just a bit of mythbusting! I don't consider myself any kind of public information service. What a weird viewpoint you have, it's in AIBU FGS!

whathellcall Mon 25-Feb-13 10:10:00

I bf btw, ds doesn't sort himself out with a night time bottle. blush

Chunderella Mon 25-Feb-13 10:21:34

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

whathellcall Mon 25-Feb-13 10:38:28

Cunderella, you claim to be balanced and accuse others of descending to a bunfight, but yet you come out with crap like "100% guarantee of sore baps" wtaf!! You come across as having a negative view of bf'ing and a bit of a chip on your shoulder

itsakindarabbit What myth has been busted?? From my own experience I know for a fact that formula feeding would have to have been more faff for me than the ease with which I can bf during the night. I understand that bf is not the same for everyone, but for those of us who get it well established and are happy to do it it is certainly less work than ff'ing.

PrettyKitty1986 Mon 25-Feb-13 10:47:03

for those of us who get it well established and are happy to do it it is certainly less work than ff'ing

That's your opinion, not a collective fact hmm I always found ff much easier than bf so clearly this is not the experience of everyone.

Primrose123 Mon 25-Feb-13 10:57:09

Sorry, very lazy, I haven't read the whole thread!

I planned to breastfeed, but when it came down to it, it just didn't work for me. It took me well over an hour to get the baby to latch on, by which time she was exhausted and fell asleep after a few minutes. Then she would wake up and take another hour to latch on etc. It was a nightmare. And, there was absolutely no way I could do it discreetly!

It was very easy to make up bottles in advance, and just heat one up for 30 seconds. In the end bottle feeding was much easier for me, although I'd been very pro-breastfeeding (before I actually tried it!)

BlackMaryJanes Mon 25-Feb-13 11:09:02

most women do what's best for them and their family.

What does this mean exactly? I hear it a lot.

hmm have to agree, this seems like the same old bunfightery bollocks, just dressed up?!

Agree that if you ff you know about cartons? expensive, wasteful and cold????!!! shock

Shagmundfreud Mon 25-Feb-13 11:11:28

PrettyKitty - most people who find ff easier than breastfeeding, haven't experienced established, normal breastfeeding. You can't take the first few weeks of breastfeeding (beyond which the majority of UK mums never get) as representative of the whole experience. You can't take breastfeeding which is hampered by a poor latch, tongue tie, mastitis or thrush as being 'normal breastfeeding'. It's not. Most women who find breastfeeding really difficult are either in the early stages, or have a problem which hasn't been resolved. Sometimes can't be resolved, but is usually amenable to expert help if the mother can find it.

Point being - breastfeeding problems can usually be sorted. They're not 'normal' or 'intrinsic' to breastfeeding per se.

You know, sometimes I read these posts and I extrapolate the views to any other situation where a bit of your body wasn't working properly. I can't think of any other situation where someone would assume that the response to not being able to walk or go to the toilet without a lot of pain, would be to assume that walking or emptying your bowels IS just horribly painful for a lot of healthy people and that the sensible response isn't to see a health expert, find out what's going wrong and deal with it, but to just buy a pair of crutches or have a colostomy bag fitted, even if doing the latter things was an easy and convenient solution (which of course they're not). It just seems a bit BONKERS to me.

Chunders - I will come back to your point re: confounding factors in a minute.

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:20:08

Re: colostomy bag example. May I play the part of the overly-earnest and agitated bf advocate for a moment?

<clears throat>

"BREASTFEEDING IS NOT THE SAME AS GOING TO THE TOILET!! I do not shit in my baby's mouth!"

grin grin grin

Sorry just stirring and being cheeky, I couldn't resist. This thread is still bonkers, sigh.... <waves goodbye>

itsakindarabbit Mon 25-Feb-13 11:20:09

whathellcall, er this one, pointing out that "formula feeding doesn't necessarily require you to be sterilising bottles and scooping out powder in the middle of the night"

Everyone else took it off on a tangent!

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 25-Feb-13 11:20:39

Morning everyone,

We'd just like to remind everyone that the raison d'être of Mumsnet is to make parents lives easier, and we should try to support everyone in their individual choices.

itsakindarabbit Mon 25-Feb-13 11:21:05

It wasn't a comparison of bf vs ff - if you see it as a comparison it's one version of ff versus another!!

fgs.

itsakindarabbit Mon 25-Feb-13 11:22:00

such a lot of fuckwittery on this thread

<shakes head>

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:22:27

<Tips hat to MNHQ> yes!

Ah jeez they haven't come here to give me detention have they?? confused

Chunderella Mon 25-Feb-13 11:22:38

Whatthecall I was referring to my own breasts- read the thread for further information. As I understand it, most but not all women have some pain in establishing bf so I wouldn't claim it was a 100% chance across the board. Some lucky souls even find nursing pleasureable. Also did I claim to be balanced? On the contrary, I have identified as a pro-choice fundamentalist and am contemptuous of biological essentialists. I couldn't be less interested in whether you think I have a chip on my shoulder about BF, but I will pull you up on your remark about being against BF. I have stated several times in this thread that women who wish to BF are entitled to do so and that acts like mocking them in public or questioning whether extended BF is appropriate are oppressive. Read and learn.

As for bunfighting, it's true that I eventually participated but only once things had already descended. It was a fait accompli then, the only question was whether the usual biases like problematising cultural attitudes of people from the UK but not from BF countries was going to be allowed to go uncountered or not.

itsakindarabbit Mon 25-Feb-13 11:24:28

READ THE OP PEOPLE, READ IT!!!!

ONE VERSION OF FORMULA FEEDING (MAKING UP BOTTLES) VERSUS ANOTHER (READY MADE CARTONS)!!!!!!

AND YES I'M SHOUTING, COS I CAN'T MAKE MYSELF HEARD OVER ALL THE FUCKWITTERY.

Chunderella Mon 25-Feb-13 11:25:01

Can someone tell me why my post at 10.21 was deleted? It contained no personal attacks: I was extremely careful to be critical of BabiesInSlings' behaviour on this thread rather than her as an individual: I'm sure she's just lovely.

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:28:07

To go back to OP

Cartons for DS still mostly require heating up, he is not as good as he used to be about room temp stuff.

Bottle out of fridge, in warmer/jug of water, meanwhile DS gets nappy changed. I reckon no faff.

If your baby doesn't mind cold temp formula and you don't mind cost, cartons easier.

Helps for me I live in an apt so don't have to go downstairs to kitchen.

This is consistent with most mums I know.

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:32:08

If you got those teats that connect to carton would be even easier.

Poss stupid q but can you heat up formula in the carton? I assume definitely no...?

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:33:44

Still here cos I have a sleeping baby in my arms and can't move grin

SusanneLinder Mon 25-Feb-13 11:33:57

Oh dear God-well when your "babies" get to 23,21 and 14, there are lots more important things to worry about than how you fed them.grin
Honestly-teenage drinking and sex, homework,boyfriends, whether they will get a job, if they are going to get into uni and what happens to them after that, worrying about if they are okay on nights out and giving umpteen lectures on keeping safe.
Nowadays-I really don't know why I ever worried about bloody breast/bottlefeeding.

Chunderella Mon 25-Feb-13 11:35:00

There are teats that connect to cartons?

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:37:09

Yes! Fantastic invention! Chillipeeps

PeazlyPops Mon 25-Feb-13 11:38:15

Zara1984 yes you can heat in the carton, just stand it in hot water.

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 11:41:09

Thanks Peazly that is handy to know - may be going to Germany soon so if I could warm carton and use chillipeeps teat for night feeds that would be v handy!

inadreamworld Mon 25-Feb-13 11:43:50

Am FF my 5 week old DD2. She wakes up once in the night and have no probs mixing powder although I sometimes do use the readymade cartons too. I find it SO much easier than breastfeeding (but then I hardly produce any milk and had bleeding nipples so BF is just not for me!) Same with DD1 when she was a baby - FF in the night was no problem.

MyDarlingClementine Mon 25-Feb-13 11:47:46

"PrettyKitty - most people who find ff easier than breastfeeding, haven't experienced established, normal breastfeeding."

It doesnt matter what my personal experience is here - but I have to speak out agaisnt yet another stupid generalisation that keep getting trotted out by some,

I found FF much easier with my first DD, if someone had pushed me or told me I was a bad parent for FF I would probably have handed her over for adoption becasuse I was under tremendous strain in lots of areas and YES I was supported!

I used the cartons. It was brilliant and my DH could really help out and share the load, unlike with BF where you are totally tied to the baby.

Second time round, for lots of reasons I thought I would try again and THIS TIME with no other pressures on me, I am EBF its worked out and I am enjoying it.

Having done both, I would say for me - both come with plus and minus.

As for baby? Who knows, my other dd is a happy fine - non bedwetting 5 year old?

Shagmundfreud Mon 25-Feb-13 12:02:27

"Ultimately, we don't know what the 'true' bf rates would be in a situation where women were genuinely free from undue influence, had information and had everything they needed in order to either bf or ff successfully."

Or indeed what would happen if we grew up in a culture where a product, the use of which is known to severely disrupt the normal functioning of breastfeeding, is thrust in women's faces day in day out through constant multi-million pound marketing campaigns, is ubiquitous, and is seen as the socially normal way to feed a baby.

Marketing campaigns, should I add, which on which much, much more money is spent than on health promotion of breastfeeding within the NHS.

"And Shag mental health,behaviour- seriously PMSL"

Amazing that you think this research - which is included on the UNICEF Baby Friendly site (UNICEF being responsible for overseeing quality standards in infant feeding training and accreditation across the NHS) is 'laughable'. Did you read it? If it's so ridiculous and not a serious piece of research, why has UNICEF included it on the site?

"Because a) the science is crap"

Can you be specific, or are you just going to say that off the top of your head without giving any detail? because you can't as you haven't read it properly

"even the dept of health don't think this is a benefit worthy of mention"

The study from the Telethon Institute in Australia was widely reported and has not been dismissed out of hand by other researchers, just be people like yourself who have a vested emotional interest in believing it to be a pile of crap. You'll find there is a mass of research out there on a whole range of health issues, not just breastfeeding, which is not specifically referred to in NHS recommendations or Dept of Health guidelines, because they tend to draw on the findings of clinical reviews of a wide range of evidence and not just individual studies. But the irony is that you and Chunderella and various others on this thread are not just going to dismiss out of hand the findings of any individual studies suggesting previously undiscovered benefits to breastfeeding, you also consistently and repeatedly dismiss pretty much everything the Department of Health and NHS information has to say on the subject anyway.

I don't think you'd believe there are any proven, significant benefits to breastfeeding if God himself came down from heaven and told you it was true - you simply don't want to accept it because you have a vested emotional interest in rubbishing the evidence, no matter where this evidence comes from or who it's validated by - the NHS, UNICEF, the Department of Health. As far as you're concerned it's all distorted, unreliable, insignificant.

"and c) poor mental health is caused by a whole host of things such as poverty,debt,unemployment etc,etc,etc"

Well, duh. hmm I don't think anyone has set out to prove that bf is the only or the most important factor in depression, only that it might play a part.

Which of course you know. But if you acknowledged this it would damage your argument that the research is a pile of crap.

(wonders about the logic of many people happily accepting that diet rich in fish oils may well have a positive affect on some children's mental health and behaviour, but finding it completely bizarre that breastfeeding - which contains completely different fats than formula - might have an impact on the way the brain develops during a child's fastest period of growth).

Chunderella Mon 25-Feb-13 12:03:39

Blimey I had no idea, and I've been ff DD for over 6 months now! Just goes to show that even for those of us who have the nighttime routine sorted fine, we can learn from tips on threads like this. Actually DH and I didn't even know about the cartons until we'd been doing it a few days, we were using the pricy little bottles for overnights at first. This thread would've been very helpful to me back then if I'd had the strength to read something for more than 30 seconds at a time.

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 12:07:56

I know, I didn't find out about the cartons until I ventured to Boots in a haze when DS was 2 weeks old!

The Chillipeeps teat is fab, I always keep a carton in my nappy bag for emergencies. Then if I am going out but not certain if DS needs a feed I chuck in chillipeeps teat, and away I go!

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 12:08:50

I know, I didn't find out about the cartons until I ventured to Boots in a haze when DS was 2 weeks old!

The Chillipeeps teat is fab, I always keep a carton in my nappy bag for emergencies. Then if I am going out but not certain if DS needs a feed I chuck in chillipeeps teat, and away I go!

PeazlyPops Mon 25-Feb-13 12:23:54

Sma now comes in bottles and you can buy a screw-on teat. It's very handy. We keep one of each in the car, in the change bag, inside the pushchairs raincover holder etc so that we always have one available.

Chunderella Mon 25-Feb-13 12:24:10

Shagmund in your comment about women being influenced by marketing campaigns you say nothing that I hadn't already said in the post you quote. It looks like we agree, then: we don't know what the bf rates would be in a society where women genuinely had free choice, where BF, FF and mixed feeding were all viable options, where information about the known benefits was widely available and where they weren't pressured either by advertising or societal disapproval.

As for me dismissing out of hand the findings of studies, sorry but no. I have said on a number of occasions that BF is normally best for baby. We have good scientific evidence confirming a number of advantages, I think you and I would agree on that. The problem we have is that it's innately problematic to control for social factors when we just plain don't know how the most socially disadvantaged babies would be doing if they were EBF'd. That matters when some of the advantages in question are in the realm of a couple of percentage points. But certainly, I assume we all know that NHS recommendations aren't always evidence based. For example, they claimed that any alcohol in pregnancy was risky at a time when we just didn't know that to be the case. Because the benefits of BF are reasonably significant at population level, the NHS do and should advocate for it, within the realms of not telling lies obviously. That doesn't tell us whether they are significant on an individual basis or indeed how to deal with confounding factors.

PeazlyPops Mon 25-Feb-13 12:26:23

I don't understand why people think some parent use formula as a result of being bombarded with marketing.

hamdangle Mon 25-Feb-13 12:31:56

I don't understand how you think that advertising for formula is shoved down our throats when my experience is that the opposite is true. All adverts begin with 'BF is best but if you want to...' In order to get any info about formula on any of the makers' websites you have to click a button where you have to say you understand that you are visiting this page because you want info on it so you can't stumble upon the information (because obviously if you did you then make a snap decision to change the way you feed your child)

As I said in my previous post, I attended anti natal classes last year and 17 years ago and I'm on the border so hospital in England but had care in Wales. I wasn't given any information at all about formula feeding but lots of support and information for breast feeding. We were told at anti natal class that we couldn't have any info on formula (but would answer questions) because they had to promote breast feeding. I have never come across anyone who has had a problem with breast feeding ever either only people who judge women for using formula.

Oh, and I found breast feeding very painful and not just at the beginning either. I think if people were more honest about the difficult aspects of feeding and don't just show lovely videos of happy mums with happy babies then it wouldn't come as such a shock to many women and they would find it easier to persevere.

PeppermintPasty Mon 25-Feb-13 12:42:10

Haven't read the whole thread. I mainly bf, with a bottle at night. Used to take it up to bed with me and tuck it into my armpit (!), keeping it warm until ready. Never had a spillage.

Have I missed the point?

chunderella I didn't see your comment. I am rather lovely.

whathellcall Mon 25-Feb-13 13:14:37

Sorry Chunderella but it didn't seem clear to me that you were just referring to your own experience of sore baps. You do come across to me as not viewing bf very positively though.

Itsakinda you're the one who mentioned bf in your op, " I bf and ff but found ff no problem at night" If your op had been worded differently maybe it wouldn't have drawn so many bf comments. No need to shout about it, maybe just word your op a bit clearer next time.

ChairmanWow Mon 25-Feb-13 13:15:53

Ignoring the fuckwittery and finding the useful info, screw on teats sound like the best invention ever! If my knockers decide to be crap again this time I'm deffo going for some of them. Must be so useful for changing bags as well as night feeds. Might get a couple in reserve just in case. Ta for t'tip. smile

MeSoFunny Mon 25-Feb-13 13:22:16

we ff with the cartons. Utter joy.

itsakindarabbit Mon 25-Feb-13 13:26:18

I did bf though hmm just describing what I did. I guess I could have just said I ff, but I didn't, I mixed fed, I was merely being descriptive!

I guess if you're the kind of person who dispenses sermons at the mere mention of bfing you could misconstrue something though hmm

itsakindarabbit Mon 25-Feb-13 13:30:06

and you forgot the passive-aggressive smiley at the end of this sentence: "maybe just word your op a bit clearer next time"

smile

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:37:10

Ok back to the practical tips - the ONLY annoying thing about chillipeeps teats is that they're fast flow, ie 3 months plus. DS is a guzzler so he would take them from just under 12 weeks. I have been meaning to email the woman who owns the company and tell her she needs to do fast-flow and medium-flow ones too.

Wish I'd bloody invented them, I'd be rich!

Peazly I should actually get some of those SMA bottles and screw on teats as my backup. They're fab. I was looking at them when I was figuring out how to do formula on long-haul flight recently. DS will take any bloody formula under the sun except SMA makes him smell like peanuts (?!) so that's one of the reasons we use Aptamil. Even less faff but peanut-smelling baby, hmmmm....

Zara1984 Mon 25-Feb-13 13:40:35

For next DC I am totally having a box of the premade bottles + teats in the house as my backup if we have bf horrors again, or for use occasionally at night. Plus a couple of of those 1 litre pre-made bottles and the usual bottles, teats etc.

Like the eejit that I am I had no supplies or sterilising gear in the house. Thank god for a mate who lived close by, and for me listening very very carefully (hard on 3 hours sleep in 3 days which included labour!!) to the midwife when she was explaining to me how to make formula!!

MyDarlingClementine Mon 25-Feb-13 13:40:47

I dont know about anyone else but I think its hard to have faith in any studies alot of the time, when " advice" changes all the time according to which study its based on, weening at 4 months, then 6 etc... x is good for you, now x isnt.

Another poster said there is more info out there about Bf than ever before, support groups in person and on line, I even had a BF person coming to my hospital bed to chat about it! There are even " help lines" where you can call someone to ask about it.....drop in centers, clinics - help groups..

Even alot of ads about FF say - breast is best for baby etc....

its so sad that there is sooo much pressure on mums esp first timers....its probably that pressure in self that does more damage than good....

I am so glad i wasnt on MN 5 years ago when had DD reading this kind of stuff would have put me in the insane asylum.

Have any studies been conducted as to whether its best for baby to be FF by a sane happy mum, or not fed at all by mum coz she is a quivering wreck - who cant cope and is actually hospitalised? confused

whathellcall Mon 25-Feb-13 14:06:53

No passive aggressive smiley, possibly one of these hmm

EasilyBored Mon 25-Feb-13 14:10:30

Ah but babies that puking stage didnt end until DS was 9 months old, breastmilk, expressed milk or formula made no difference. He was just a happy puker, and it was utterlu soul destroying to have him feed for nearly an hour, vomithe whole lot back up and then want to feed again. Four or five times a night. At least with a bottle someone else could help and emotionally it felt less draining. It's all very well talking about perspective when you aren't going through it. I received so much support and encouragement but I just couldn't continue resenting my lovely baby for wanting to eat.

itsakindarabbit Mon 25-Feb-13 14:11:57

hmm smile

grin