To be gobsmacked at how lucky we are in Scotland with our low tuition fees? Hats off to you lot elsewhere in the UK - and foreign students!

(249 Posts)
49CremeEggs Wed 20-Feb-13 12:43:09

Completed my first degree in my teens to early twenties. Got it completely free thanks to SAAS.

I'm starting a second unrelated undergraduate degree in September for which i will have to fund the last two years myself (it's an allied health professional course, so SAAS will still pay the first two years). Each year costs approx £1,850, so I hope to save £4,000 by the time i'm due to start my third year.

However, for the rest of the UK, it's £9,000 a year! For foreign students coming here to study, it's £13,500 a year

Why on earth does it vary so greatly? It's completely unfair.

Makes me realise just how lucky i am to be in Scotland. And i hope SAAS is still around in twelve years' time when my dd will (hopefully) be starting to think about uni.

Not meaning to sound patronising, but hats off to all you non-Scottish students. How on earth can anyone afford to study elsewhere? Do you get loans?

I took out a loan for living expenses during my first degree. Think it totalled to under £3000 for the whole course.

Safe to say, if i wasn't living in Scotland, i'd have moved here in a jiffy if it meant no tuition fees.

Auntmaud Wed 20-Feb-13 12:45:18

I wouldn't live in Scotland for all the tea in China thankyouverymuch, I'm English to the bone . But you enjoy it. Fees are a small price to pay for not having Alex Salmond lording it over me, IMHO.

VestaCurry Wed 20-Feb-13 12:45:21

Been chewing over moving to Scotland for ages. Unfortunately DH won't entertain the idea.

HollyBerryBush Wed 20-Feb-13 12:45:55

Hell would freeze over before living in Scotland grin

All Scottish universities have set tuition fees for students from other parts of the UK, with some charging £36,000 for a four-year degree.

Auntmaud Wed 20-Feb-13 12:45:57

Sensible chap. ;)

Auntmaud Wed 20-Feb-13 12:46:40

Oxford and Cambridge are in England so not an issue for my family grin

NordicNoir Wed 20-Feb-13 12:49:08

We are from England; my DS is studying in Scotland - he's the only one of his mates (who include EU students) paying full fees. Welsh students get some sort of Govt subsidy, and his pal from NI has an Eire passpost, so 'tis free!

I do not understand the rationale AT ALL - why can EU students study in Scotland for free, yet English students must pay top whack?

Presumably should Scotland become independent, English students would be classified the same as EU, and therefore no tuition fees? Would this not throw up a massive funding issue for the scottish unis (I think about 30% English students where DS studies)

NordicNoir Wed 20-Feb-13 12:52:30

He is at Glasgow BTW, which at least recognise the ££ impact on english students for the longer degree courses - they charge £6,750 pa (equivalent to £27,000 over the 4 years) - unlike Edinburgh & St Andrews charging £9K pa!

He also received a £1K bursary in year 1, simply for being English grin

49CremeEggs Wed 20-Feb-13 12:54:25

Nordic - i didn't know that EU students studying in Scotland get it free.

During my first degree, one of my classmates was Polish and she had to pay fees.

It's just terrible.

If i was living in England, there's no way i could afford for my daughter to go to uni.

TheFallenNinja Wed 20-Feb-13 12:56:05

How deliciously gloaty

Auntmaud Wed 20-Feb-13 12:56:14

You don't afford for your children to go. They take on the debt - it's the cheapest loan they will ever have - and only repay it at a very small monthly amount when they start earning at least 21 K.

HollyBerryBush Wed 20-Feb-13 12:57:17

The better schools are advising their brighter pupils to apply across Europe - Holland is a favourite. Tuition fees are something like E1,200 per year, but the Dutch govt pays a bursary to all students of E400 PCM.

Germany is also a favourite hot spot.

Most unis teach in English.


49CremeEggs Wed 20-Feb-13 13:01:01

Don't see how my post is gloaty. Just me thinking out loud how unfair it is.

That's interesting Holly. I don't understand why it's so cheap for foreign (UK) students to study there, when it's £13,500 per year for them to study here.

AuntMaud, i don't know how the loan works in England. Does every student get it to cover fees? What if they wanted to do a second degree at some point in the future, would they get another loan?

raggedymum Wed 20-Feb-13 13:09:55

I'm originally from the States. It's just a fact of life there that education is massively expensive. We're still paying off DH's student loans, 25 years later! Some people retire in debt.

I found it sad to see the UK start to follow this path, and I hope that it can stop before it gets as far as the States sad I have friends who graduated with professional degrees, but debt as much as a sizeable mortgage.

Isityouorme Wed 20-Feb-13 13:10:23

If I were to say how unfair it is that those living across the border in Scotland get free tuition and prescriptions and nursing homes for old people and we are one state with taxes going into one ever decreasing pot I am sure I woud be accused of being racist so I'm not going to say it. wink

Catchingmockingbirds Wed 20-Feb-13 13:11:27

Do you not need to pay the fees back when you're earning above a certain threshold? Or is that just student loans from SLC?

andubelievedthat Wed 20-Feb-13 13:13:49

Perhaps you should do a course in economics ? i can assure you ,this "free" (university ,care for the old ,prescriptions) , malarky are/is anything but! there is one hellova bill running up right now ,which one day is going to land on a door mat not just near you but acually on your doormat ! and every other deluded person in Scotland ! FREE ? how can any adult be conned by that one ? there is no "free", there is >conning an easy to con electorate ,there is running up a debt others will have to pay ,there is buying votes ,<>and for the record ,born in Scotland ,presently residing in Scotland ,and planning my return to England .(i have got to get out of this place !)

Backinthebox Wed 20-Feb-13 13:28:27

Don't get me started. I have an old university friend who is Scottish. She hopes one day that Scotland will become independent, and all the English will leave. Except for the students who are subsidising the Scottish unis, of course!

claig Wed 20-Feb-13 13:30:42

They always screw us in England.

Good luck with your studies.

abitcoldupnorth Wed 20-Feb-13 13:32:15

Believe me, we will all be paying for these 'free' bribes services when Wee Eck finally gets pushed off his throne ... (Scottish, living in Scotland btw)

claig Wed 20-Feb-13 13:33:36

'They always screw us in England.'

By that I don't mean the Scots, I mean our masters in England.

livinginwonderland Wed 20-Feb-13 15:07:01

well, to be fair, student loans in england are actually very good value - until you're earning 21k, you pay back nothing, and after that, it's very small amounts/month, and it's written off after a certain number of years anyway (25 perhaps?) so you're never going to be in debt forever, and if you end up not earning much, you don't pay it back at all. i don't see what the big fuss is about, to be honest.

NordicNoir Wed 20-Feb-13 15:26:11

Unfortunately another failure to correctly cost something through by this Govt - recent study here concludes that the short term gain through the loans system will be outweighed 6.5 times over the long term due to failure to collect the loans in the future.

I also worry for my DS - he will have accumulated the best part of £30K (we are fortunate in managing to cover his living costs at the moment - debt would be much higher if he had to take a loan for these as well). How will that affect him when he tries to gain a foothold on the housing ladder? Also concerned that a good degree isn't necessarily a passport to a good, graduate level job - I have recently recruited for a P/T admin role, and was staggered at the number of recent graduates who applied. And once again, none of those graduates will be earning the £21K threshold, so what chance of collecting their loans?

I think there will be a brain drain in the future from this country - although the Student Loan Company say they will recover funds from people moving abroad, I have very little faith in Govt IT systems to enable them to do this, so maybe he would be better off upping sticks to Australia or NZ.

StripeyBear Wed 20-Feb-13 16:23:20

>Why on earth does it vary so greatly? It's completely unfair.

No - it's devolution... remember that big referendum... well we voted to have a devolved Scotland, and Higher Education is mostly devolved, so the rules are different from England - in the same ways that we have different rules and regulations and laws from people who live in Mexico...

>I do not understand the rationale AT ALL - why can EU students study in Scotland for free, yet English students must pay top whack?

I believe it is because EU law states that you can't discriminate against members of other EU states and give them a less favourable deal than your own citizens... you're allowed to discimrinate against subsets of your own nationals though... weird, isn't it.

NordicNoir Wed 20-Feb-13 16:28:38

Completely bonkers. I wish we'd moved to Scotland a couple of year ago! I have friends in Scotland, and the concern there is that English students are being offered places over Scottish students, as the tuition fees are higher than the per capita funding for home students.

It's the ripples and the unintended consequences of these political decisions that could be to the long term detriment for all concerned!

andubelievedthat Wed 20-Feb-13 17:20:11

OH for fucks sake ! "what will my little lovey do when he tries to "get a pile of bricks " ? well, assuming little lovey ,luv, has gone thru a degree course and is perhaps maybe 20/21 yoa ? maybe he /she will work it out for themselves ? or does mom have to hover ? ,like hover ,constantly? its called life , ! get bloody used to it !(slopes of to wipe 25 yoa sons arse, cos he was never taught ,its a hard world out there ! )

NordicNoir Wed 20-Feb-13 17:54:31

Sorry for having an opinion about the ecomonic climate my children will be growing up into - I am NOT a "hover mum" as you suggest andubelievethat -of course they have to stand on their on 2 feet, but that doesn't mean I can't be concerned about what the future hold for them!

FWIW I think youth unemployment and debt is an issue for the whole society... it is the taxes of the working generation that will pay for the welfare state, and if there's no jobs for our young people here, and they are crippled by debt, they're going to bugger off and be paying their taxes to another country!

LessMissAbs Wed 20-Feb-13 17:58:57

Like a lot of SNP policies, its unsustainable in the long term and the taxpayer ie your daughter will end up paying for it through higher taxes, which will either be levied via Scotland only if independence or independence-lite happens, through existing Council Tax or on the UK as a whole. Such a high proportion of the workforce here in Scotland (1/3) work in the public sector that such fees simply aren't sustainable long term. Its also driving English students away from studying in Scotland.

Euphemia Wed 20-Feb-13 17:59:38

Students from outwith the EU are charged the actual cost of their studies, as there is no government subsidy for them.

Scottish universities are not allowed to treat citizens of EU countries differenly regarding fees, hence they don't pay.

The things we get "free" in Scotland are paid for through taxation; they differ from those in England owing to different government priorities.

ubik Wed 20-Feb-13 18:00:08

Some lovely sentiments here.

It's up to the Scottish government to Diwns it's money on what is important - it had chosen free universities, free prescriptions and free care for the elderly. It isn't perfect but I wholeheartedly support its values.

ubik Wed 20-Feb-13 18:04:29

Sorry 'to spend' damn phone

VenusRising Wed 20-Feb-13 18:06:07

Well they could go and study in Ireland for free, if they had an irish grandparent, and got an irish passport.
Americans fill the universities in Ireland, as the Irish have no fees, and someone has to pay for the education!

Maybe we should all export our students, might be good for the little darlings (and certainly would mean they did their own laundry)?

Tailtwister Wed 20-Feb-13 18:06:20

Well, I think those who are benefiting now are luckily, but I don't see the situation as sustainable. I do find it amazing though that EU students don't have to pay fees but those from England do!

I don't see it lasting much longer. Soon we'll be forced to go the same way as everywhere else.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 20-Feb-13 18:11:54

Love these threads..when all the bitter resentful Tories tell us they wouldn't want to live here.

Thank God for that, I say, so everyone is happy!

Dottiespots Wed 20-Feb-13 18:15:11

Its really good here in wales too. For example....if your doing a course with the OU here in Wales it will cost £475 for the year and in England its £1275.00. At that price I couldnt not study for a degree.

SamuelWestsMistress Wed 20-Feb-13 18:21:21

It'll be one of the first things to go if we get independence. Completely unstastainable! But Alex Salmond King Of All The Scots won't telly you this. Because he is too busy eating pies wants votes to live the Braveheart dream.

DumSpiroSpero Wed 20-Feb-13 18:31:43

Totally agree with isitme

Either we are all one United Kingdom with equality in terms of education etc, or we're not.

Can't see full devolution happening all the while the English taxpayer is subsidising free uni, prescriptions & elderly care for the Scottish.

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 20-Feb-13 18:37:17

"Scotland generates 9.6 per cent of UK revenue in return for 9.3 per cent of UK spending, which means Scotland was in a stronger financial position than the UK as a whole to the tune of £2.7 billion in 2010-11, which equates to over £500 per person.”

Yes..that article really proves your point

Euphemia Wed 20-Feb-13 18:44:28

There's nothing like Tories spouting their guff to make me want to vote for independence.

I've been a Labour supporter all my life, but there's one big idea that makes me want independence:


What a thought! smile

Auntmaud Wed 20-Feb-13 18:57:13

Now Euphemia, as an English Tory this is one of the reasons I hope and pray for Scottish Independence :


What a thought! grin

Euphemia Wed 20-Feb-13 19:00:16

Everybody would be happy then. smile

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 20-Feb-13 19:01:42

Ok..we are all agreed independence is a good thing grin

awaynboilyurheid Wed 20-Feb-13 19:04:15

where did the idea that the elderly get free care come from ? I know a lot of people whose savings and homes are paying their care home fees ?

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 20-Feb-13 19:06:21

Oh yes Euphemia, that is the reason I'd vote for Independence.
I voted Devolution during the Thatcher years, and it's probably the best vote I ever made.
I do believe in the Union and would be sad to see it go, but if the alternative is the sort of policies we have now, with a Government that we never voted for, I'd rather take the risk and vote for Independence, than be ruled by people who have no mandate to govern Scotland.

determinedma Wed 20-Feb-13 19:12:12

Op you are lucky SAAS paid up.
Dd was awarded a place last September. saas was so slow dealing with her claim she lost her place in November. I have since had a formal apology from the CEO of SAAS apologising for their part in dd loading her uni place. That helps!
Is it true it is free to study in Ireland if grandparents are Irish?

determinedma Wed 20-Feb-13 19:12:37

Losing, not loading

Auntmaud Wed 20-Feb-13 19:12:56

Amen to that ladybeagle. It is how much of Middle England felt during the Labour years.

determinedma Wed 20-Feb-13 19:17:45

And yes, the free care for all elderly is nonsense. Ask my elderly father whom is desperately trying to die at home so he doesn't have to sell his house to go into care.
And remember, in this land of milk and honey, adults die younger than in any other European country thanks to high rates of heart disease and alcohol related problems. Still want to live here?

andubelievedthat Wed 20-Feb-13 21:48:21

YES! Samuelwestmistress ! totally , all those wankers sucking it up for christs sake! as previously said " the mob is so predictable " here comes the bill !> does not matter which country ones little lovies fuck of to live in , no other country is any diff. and a helluv a lot are , once you are there, a lot worse , otherwise we would all be trying to adapt our system to theirs , try ,for example ,Switzerland> hellonfuckingearth(i lived there for a while) unless one is financially "minted" nothing is much diff.wherever you end up , i could pull, whatever hair i have left, out re this >>"in Scotland everything is free" it ranks along side puff the magic dragon was in fact >still there !

Cubtrouble Wed 20-Feb-13 23:29:40

Where do I vote for Scottish independence? Can't wait for that, you'll all be paying then because England won't be footing the bill.

Op your question is smug. Oh goodness me how do you poor folk pay? Do you have to get loans? Ffs no we can't afford to go we have to go to work to pay for all the scots to get theirs for free.

anonymosity Wed 20-Feb-13 23:35:46

My UK university fees were free (before the introduction of student loans) and my first year accommodation was 20 quid a week (including full cooked breakfasts and cleaners)...

LadyBeagleEyes Wed 20-Feb-13 23:43:20

Under the Scottish Government, we have our own choice where we want to budget.
So we have decided that health and education is where we want to put our money.
Oh, and believe it or not, we pay taxes too.
Oh, and Cubtrouble, come and live here, Scotland is open to everyone.

anonymosity Thu 21-Feb-13 02:44:35

Yes but as many English find in Scotland, as soon as you open your mouth you're abused and berated, for being - English. Not nice.

The level of ignorance from some posters on here is rather astounding to me.... Why is it acceptable to insult each other like this?
I am Scottish, living in Scotland, but have lived in England, and overseas. I am no supporter of the SNP or Scottish independence.
As other posters have said, these policies are not sustainable. As it is, every university makes a loss on every home UG we teach. This is my day job, so I know the ins and outs of it intimately. Universities are not public sector - we are businesses who receive a proportion of our income from the public purse. We have to make our books balance, one way or another. Look at things in that context, please.
Rant over. smile

anonymosity Thu 21-Feb-13 04:11:21

No I disagree, Universities may need to make a profit, but they are not businesses, unless they are completely private, they are in fact public sector. Doesn't mean the people who run them do so in a business-like manner though.

We're really not public sector - honestly.... We're probably more 3rd sector.

Or to be really pernickety... We're registered charities with royal charters. :D

MammaTJ Thu 21-Feb-13 05:22:32

It is unfair but the interest rates are very favourable.

Gingerodgers Thu 21-Feb-13 06:01:16

Ok, I am not in the uk. Studying here is expensive. I am a sahm with kids at school. Oh, if I could just find a wee course that suited me, I would be delighted, but it does come down to cost of course v cost of potential earnings on a very pt basis. Basically, it would take years of working to pay the course fees, therefore, I don't do it. I can't decide whether or not this is a good thing, if a course was free, I'd definitely do it at the tax payers expense regardless of whether or not I wanted to work and pay tax, as it isn't free, I am much more concerned about what I do, and certainly won't be studying just to pass the time iyswim. Education costs money, it's a bummer, but maybe it's time all the 'nonsense courses' were scrapped,!

NewAtThisMalarky Thu 21-Feb-13 06:37:27

I'm Scottish, living in Scotland.

It's fairly clear to me that free tuition and prescriptions are a temporary thing - to make it seem to the people voting for independence that we will be better off without England.

Whether the vote is for or against independence will make little difference. Ultimately it's a 'look how great the SNP is' policy.

And to the smug anti-salmond english on this thread - I'd just like to say that I can't blame you! I don't want him presiding over me either. Mind you I'm not exactly a fan of Cameron either...

Gilbertwasthebestcat Thu 21-Feb-13 06:47:27

I am Scottish living in England and working in an English university. The quality of both students and the education offered will suffer without university fees. Scottish academics would welcome fees to improve both. Are fees fair? No, but necessary unfortunately .

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Feb-13 06:52:37

grin at poor middle England being held to ransom by the Scottish vote, what a pile of shite.

cuillereasoupe Thu 21-Feb-13 07:19:12

Come and study in France, tuition fees of 300 euros a year grin

Incogneetow Thu 21-Feb-13 07:28:47

But the Scottish Universities are going to be in deep trouble and some staff there are very worried. They are not getting the finances they require to support the research in the universities, as a result they won't be able to prosper, won't be able to attract the best staff; and then the reputation of (previously superb) scottish institutions will soon start to decline.

5 or 6 years ago I thought studying in Scotland might be an option for my boys (Science). But now I just wouldn't consider it.

As Gilbert says, the quality of the education there is going to suffer without university fees.

Samnella Thu 21-Feb-13 07:31:34

YANBU to think its unfair as it plainly is. Your "hat's off" comment is badly chosen as it comes across as smug. Its not as though we have a choice in the matter , so its nothing to congratulate us on. I would imagine though that whilst we lose out on tuition fess the money is going else where. Its just a matter of where the money has been distributed to surely. I guess the test will be when Scotland becomes independent and is no longer subsidised by the rest of the UK.

I am English, and a proud grad of a Scottish university (one of the ancients). My best memory of mid-90s Scotland was the education I received. The worst? Indubitably Alex Salmond and the gentle but persistent ethnic stirring he performed with his hammy fist.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 21-Feb-13 08:38:18

I probably wouldn't even vote for independence.

But seriously, all this crap about being "subsidised" and being called "wankers sucking it up" is so offensive.

Am super glad if ignorant rude idiots like that flock away from here in their droves tbh

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 21-Feb-13 08:41:28

Read my quote above, which was even from the Torygraph about how Scotland generates 9.6%of revenue in return for 9.3% of spending before spouting your "we subsidise you with our taxes" nonsense.

drjohnsonscat Thu 21-Feb-13 08:46:23

As I understand it, a German student studying in Scotland is entitled to pay the lower fees that a Scottish student pays whereas an English student studying in Scotland pays the higher fees. Apparently it's illegal to discriminate between member states but not within member states. I have only heard this and haven't checked it out but if it's the case, it's pretty disgraceful. Can anyone confirm?

Disclaimer: I'm English and would be sorry about Scottish Independence but would happily never hear from Alex Salmond again.

ILikeBirds Thu 21-Feb-13 08:51:22

I'm in 2 minds about this. On the one hand i think it must be daunting to decide to take up this amount of debt on the other i'd quite happily swap the new repayment terms for mine. (I pay a percentage of anything i earn over 15k and the loan isn't written off until retirement)

pollypandemonium Thu 21-Feb-13 09:32:42

In Germany parents are forced to support their children until they are 21. They therefore make sure they are capable of either working or studying. Students pay uni fees but they are reasonable and not led by market forces as they are in England. Here our children end up as privileged educated or NEETs. There needs to be a middle ground. Our education system is socially segregated and this is pushing us towards a 21st Century Dickensian utopia complete with a servant class. At least Scotland accepts that there are consequences to allowing market forces to run things and is prepared to put society before the banker.

FannyFifer Thu 21-Feb-13 09:42:51

Wow, usual lot of anti Scottish bollocks on this thread I see.

Good luck to you all with Cameron privatising your NHS, thankfully our devolved government has better priorities.

Roll on next year, we shall see then who subsidises who.

allgoingtoshitnow Thu 21-Feb-13 11:53:15

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FannyFifer Thu 21-Feb-13 12:23:59

As a Nationalist, how the fuck does that make me a racist?

Think you are confusing the Scottish National Party with the BNP.

If you were ever to attend an SNP event you will see people from all nationalities and cultures, the one thing they all have in common is wanting the best & a fair deal for the country they have made their home.

The only racism I see is towards Scottish people, it's offensive and absolutely rife on Mumsnet.

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 21-Feb-13 12:49:00

Hear hear Fanny

Allgoingtoshitnow...independence is a political process..why ask posters on a thread 'why didn't you go?"

And calling Nationalists racists is just slightly hypocritical given the tone of your post (and untrue)

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 21-Feb-13 12:49:31

I personally am arseholeist

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Feb-13 13:50:09

Do people really not understand the mechanics of the current situation?

No one is subsidising anyone, only an idiot would make that argument.

Think of Scotland and the Scottish government as a giant council. They get a budget to play with. There are a number of areas classed as devolved which means Scotland get to decide what happens in these areas. Taxation isn't one of then. Now this might be shocking news to some but, as it stands, every tax payer in Scotland pays tax into the same pot as the rest of the UK. We are then given a chunk to spend on devolved issues. Like a council that gets set its budget from Westminster, so do we.

Would you say Bristol city council subsidised Yorkshire council or whatever? No, you wouldn't. Well, it's the same thing.

allgoingtoshitnow Thu 21-Feb-13 15:28:30

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FannyFifer Thu 21-Feb-13 15:37:28

Good god, you really are utterly offensive the only racist person is you.

There are English SNP MSP's, many many English SNP members, indeed quite a big non Scottish membership of the SNP.

It's not about race or background, it's about a country being free from the shackles of Westminster & a government we didn't vote for.

allgoingtoshitnow Thu 21-Feb-13 15:39:39

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RedHotRudieParts Thu 21-Feb-13 15:40:31

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FannyFifer Thu 21-Feb-13 15:44:53

I have reported your post as quite frankly it is disgusting.

allgoingtoshitnow Thu 21-Feb-13 15:46:58

Its funnier if you sing it in a broad Scot accent.

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 21-Feb-13 15:51:11

I reported a post last night Fanny, which I deemed to be offensive.
But it seems you can be as vile as you want about the Scots, it's not any sort of 'ism, so they always seem to stand.
Imagine if a Scot on here was to give out to the English like we constantly receive on here, (though I've never seen it),I wonder what MN would do.

NordicNoir Thu 21-Feb-13 15:53:19

I'm English, and deplore the twattish, racist, and extremely unfunny views that are being directed towards the Scotland and Scots people on this thread.

indyandlara Thu 21-Feb-13 16:00:57

Racists my arse.

I love how those who support the SNP are racists but comparing supporters with Nazis is just fine.

OptimisticPessimist Thu 21-Feb-13 16:03:39

"The only racism I see is towards Scottish people, it's offensive and absolutely rife on Mumsnet."

This. I am so sick of threads about independence/the referendum being derailed by racist attacks against Scottish people, veiled under a pretence of exposing supposed racism by the SNP.

NordicNoir Thu 21-Feb-13 16:04:35

I was referring mainly to the nazi post - deeply offensive

FannyFifer Thu 21-Feb-13 16:07:46

I have reported several posts including the Nazi one but no comment from Mumsnet.

I have never seen a Scottish poster on here be offensive or racist toward English posters, why would we be?

Every thread with any mention of Scotland, Scottish, independence, free prescriptions etc, we are subjected to this pish, its disgraceful.

I think the OP's first post is deliberately goading, and that she's got the gunfight she wanted. Unless she's been living under a stone for the past decade or is particularly thick (which I doubt, if she's doing another degree) she must be aware of funding arrangements for students from/in Scotland. It's been debated ad naseum in the press here.

Bunfight. DYAC. Let's hope it doesn't come to a gunfight - whatever happens with independence.

montmartre Thu 21-Feb-13 16:21:50

Posters talking about loans being a 'reasonable rate of interest'- what planet do you live on?
The loans are fixed at 3.5 (3?) % above inflation so currently around 6 or 6.5%... but they won't stay at those levels over the term of the 30 year repayment period. Compare that with my mortgage which is fixed at 0.5% above base rate for a 25 year repayment period. Only the property owning classes will be able to send their children, because they'll draw down on their mortgages. Who in their right mind would take on a student loan for 30 years. It won't be a 'small' amount each month from your salary- have a look at the detailed figures on you're looking at around 30% of net income a month. You can forget your children ever having homes or children of their own; unless they live with you until they're 40, they'll never be able to afford to breed.
As has been pointed out upthread, the mythical graduate job no longer exists. This generation of graduates will be grateful for a NMW job, most will not see salaries above current national averag (c.£26k) until they're 35+.
I am so, so worried about what is going to happen when people actually look at the burden of debt they've taken on, it will stymie an entire generation. As has been pointed out- one cannot move abroad to escape repayment, more shockingly, even bankruptcy does not cancel out your student loan debt! shock

Please people of Scotland, enjoy what you have now (and I am glad some Britons can get educated this way, I don't begrudge them one bit), but please please think carefully about what you do should you go independent. Please don't saddle young people with this level of debt, an education should be a right, and a free education too. Educated people benefit the whole of society.

thebody Thu 21-Feb-13 16:27:30

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

indyandlara Thu 21-Feb-13 16:34:01

Thanks you MNHQ.

ubik Thu 21-Feb-13 18:35:50

i'm english living in Scotland and I support the SNP.
This racism/anti English rhetoric about the SNP is so tiresome - i support independence because after living here I think self determination is crucial for the future development of Scotland.

I have been given a hard time about being english occasionally but frankly that sort of attitude singles people out as rather parochial and short sighted.

13Iggis Thu 21-Feb-13 18:45:02

Not Scottish, but am thinking of voting for independence, much to my surprise to be honest. The comments on this thread are the type of thing that would push you over the edge!
I don't think there are many on the thread old enough to remember when all education was free, and you got a grant, housing benefit, and even income support in the summer..
I think it must be so hard to be a young adult today.

13Iggis Thu 21-Feb-13 18:46:18

OP I didn't think you sounded smug at all, more sympathetic in fact.

mrsjay Thu 21-Feb-13 18:50:07

not feeling the scottish love on this thread when hell freezer over and the like Oh well you are all missing out grin

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 21-Feb-13 19:02:57


mrsjay Thu 21-Feb-13 19:15:23

sorry oliviamumsnet i meant it is a lovely country everybody should visit at least once and not slate it like some are getting away with, hmm

MoominmammasHandbag Thu 21-Feb-13 19:21:50

I am Welsh, living in England, and as I understand it, Welsh higher education is paid for by poorer care services for the elderly and the disabled and less funding to the Welsh NHS. ( I may be completely misinformed here).
So, out of interest, what do they cut in Scotland to pay for all the free stuff?

My understanding is that Scotland is allocated more public funding per head through the Barnett Formula. So, it has more to spend and needn't cut anything (in fairness it should be pointed out that tax revenues currently generated in Scotland cover it).

Moomin, not sure about the edu budget, but I know that as a consequence of free prescriptions, we have longer waiting times for hospital, for example.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 21-Feb-13 19:54:19

Education wise we don't have SATS or anything similar that must save a fair whack. Also enrolling in schools is very simple - just rock up at your nearest school, that must save a fair whack too. Free prescriptions actually save money as far as I know - it costs more to administer paid for prescriptions and all the opt out so than to make it free for everyone. Council budgets are being massively slashed but I guess that is the same everywhere.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Feb-13 19:57:34

I have also never seen any of the much lauded 'English hating' that Scottish people are meant to peddle. I have however seen many vicious attacks against Scotland and her people on these debates.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Feb-13 19:59:32

There are lots of cuts, such as free cosmetic dental correction for children (braces etc) vanishing, albeit quietly.

And things like free bus travel for pensioners causes less isolation etc, and delays the need for social care intervention. And free prescriptions, as well as being cheaper to administer as someone said, means that people are more likely to take the medication - again, meaning that health improves long term.

mrsjay Thu 21-Feb-13 20:04:57

I have also never seen any of the much lauded 'English hating' that Scottish people are meant to peddle. I have however seen many vicious attacks against Scotland and her people on these debates.

<nods> it really is viscous sometimes

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Feb-13 20:05:45

Exactly, Scotland has had serious issues with health inequality and poor engagement in services. Excuse us for trying to do something about it!

49CremeEggs Thu 21-Feb-13 20:39:28

Hi there.

I've avoided coming back to this thread because i try not to get involved in fights. It was definitely not my intention to create one!

I'm not stupid - but i am totally clueless when it comes to politics. I don't even know who Salmond is blush

I also didn't mean to sound 'gloaty'. I was just pondering aloud why the fees are so different across the UK.

I totally appreciate how fortunate i am. I am genuinely interested in how Englanders pay their fees. The nature of my second degree may mean i have to relocate to England after i graduate in order to work. And i'd like to have an idea of how fees work down there before i ever moved because of my daughter's future - probably planning way too far ahead, but i like to be organised. And this would be a huge deciding factor about whether or not i moved from Scotland.

I'm quite horrified actually by a lot of the responses. I only imagine it's because - like me - you're annoyed by how unfair it is that the fees are so expensive in England. But it's nothing to do with us Scots - it's to do with the government. I think our anger should be directed at them, not each other.

13Iggis Thu 21-Feb-13 21:12:25

Creameggs, who do you think the first minister is?
(Rethinks position of support for OP! wink )

I've lived in a number of countries but my experience was that Scotland was by far the worst in terms of the personal animosity I faced. Unsurprisingly, the people responsible thought they were being entirely reasonable- something bigots worldwide have in common. It is this minority who appear to be driving the independence agenda.

49CremeEggs Thu 21-Feb-13 21:21:27


I thought there was only one minister - the Prime minister Cameron.

That's why i didn't understand the fees being so varied across the UK. I always thought the UK was ruled by the same government, but now i realise Scotland has its own. So we have two governments... I think... confused

13Iggis Thu 21-Feb-13 21:25:10

There are similar-but-different arrangements in Wales and NI too CreamEgg.
Not meaning to be patronising, just surprised a university-educated Scottish resident (presumably owning a tv) would not know that!

mrsjay Thu 21-Feb-13 21:28:12

do you live here at all creme what do you think the scottish parliment is all about then, hmm

deste Thu 21-Feb-13 21:34:25

My DD was the only one on her university course to not get her fees paid from Scotland, she was the only Scot on the course. The rest were Irish. She did eventually get them paid through England, after a struggle. Her problem, she went to study in England.

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 21-Feb-13 21:35:14

You don't know who Salmond is and you live in Scotland Op confused.
Toadinthehole, I'm Scottish and apart from many years living abroad, I've spent most of my life here.
My ex is English, the tiny Highland village I live in is probably half English, there are a hell of a lot of English living in Scotland.
If it was as bad as you say, why would they not get the next bus home?
My DB lives in the SE, he's been totally accepted too, apart from the odd remark from some arsehole. Both England and Scotland have an equal share of them.
And FWIW, I haven't decided what I'm going to vote yet, I'm quite happy with the union, just not the Tories. And also, like I and others have said, I've never seen a Scottish poster issue such vitriol against the English on MN as the English do about us.

mrsjay Thu 21-Feb-13 21:37:18

I've never seen a Scottish poster issue such vitriol against the English on MN as the English do about us.

and get away with it hmm

49CremeEggs Thu 21-Feb-13 21:39:12

Politics had nothing to with my previous degree, nor anything to do with my future one. It's just something i've never been interested in.

I thought the Scottish parliment was just Cameron's people keeping an eye on things this side of the border (can't believe i'm admitting that!).

I understand better now, i think. Still think it's really unfair though. My mum is English. However, she moved up here twenty-odd years ago when she married my dad. So would she get free funding if she ever decided to go to uni, or would she still be considered English and have to pay? confused

Not meaning to sound offensive, but if SAAS is still around by the time my daughter's considering uni, i'd move back here in order to get her the SAAS-funded fees. But i don't know if she'd be entitled to it if we had been living in England throughout her high school years.

mrsjay Thu 21-Feb-13 21:41:40

I thought the Scottish parliment was just Cameron's people keeping an eye on things this side of the border (can't believe i'm admitting that!).

we have had devolution for years how can you not know that confused do you not vote

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 21-Feb-13 21:44:32

You get the funding if you have been ordinarily resident in Scotland for at least three years prior to applying, it's nothing to do with being Scottish.

Saltire Thu 21-Feb-13 21:45:10

There is animosity on both sides of the Border, I have been on the receiving end of it in the far south of England. However, I didn't hear any nasty remarks in other places I lived in England - except for one which was nasty. A few jokey comments (banter if you like) which I can deal with but no downright nasty comments really.

redlac Thu 21-Feb-13 21:45:32

See the usual shite about Scotland is being spouted on this thread

I can't be arsed getting involved however I would happily donate to anyone who offered to run up millions of leaflets to post through every door in England to enlighten then that they do not fucking subsidise Scotland

49CremeEggs Thu 21-Feb-13 21:46:26

Yes, i'm really embarrased. I'm just not interested in politics. As stupid as it sounds, i've always thought of the UK as one giant country rather than 4 individual ones. Which is why i posted this thread. I was confused why fees were so different. Had no idea Scotland has two parties of power - Tory and Scottish parliment (if that's even right.)

I don't read papers. I don't watch the news. I read online papers such as the Guardian every now and then, but it mainly talks about English events.

I suppose i ought to start looking for Scottish papers! My sister is fascinted with politics (has a degree in it). Many a time i found myself zoning out as a teen when her and my dad would talk about politics over dinner. Kind of wish i'd tuned in just a little bit more now though.

Please don't take the mick. My mum is the same as me. Not got the foggiest who's who in the world of politics.

13Iggis Thu 21-Feb-13 21:46:55

Yes the elections are a bit of a clue!
Afaik eligibility is to do with residency not nationality.

MissAnnersley Thu 21-Feb-13 21:49:56

The opening of the Scottish Parliament here.

49CremeEggs Thu 21-Feb-13 21:55:38

Yes, i vote by post. I tick Scottish labour as that's who my local MP is (who has been really helpful with my dd and other stuff) and my parents always voted them when i was growing up. But tbh, i never really understand them. I got a postal vote through my door yesterday, and i have no clue what it's for.

Ah, thanks for that, OldLady.

If someone was to move to England (after spending their whole life so far in Scotland) for say five years, do you think they'd get funding if they were to then move back? Or would they have to have lived here again for three years first?

E.g. i spent thirty-five years living in Scotland. I move to England for five years for work. My dd wants to go to uni, so i relocate back to Scotland.

Will she have to then pay the same fees as an English student, even though she was born in Scotland and had spent most of her life here?

Or would i have to move back when she's 14/15, spend three years here first, and then she'd get SAAS funding that way?

13Iggis Thu 21-Feb-13 21:57:30

It's not two parties, tories and scottish parliament. It's whoever is in power in Westminster and in Scotland - so could be (as if!) Tories in both, or Tories in London, Labour in Scotland, or Labour in London, SNP in Scotland. Or more likely, some kind of coalition.
I don't think everyone needs to be majorly interested in politics but you are really showing an absence of general knowledge to know nothing about this. I'd expect people living elsewhere in UK to at least now the basics. I loved the tv ads a while back where someone said the didn't "do" politics, and got a reply back about all the things that meant they had no interest in!

13Iggis Thu 21-Feb-13 22:00:44
NordicNoir Thu 21-Feb-13 22:02:16

Good question 49cremeeggs, and not sure where you would find the answer! If you can move back to Scotland easily, then that would seem like a fine plan.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 21-Feb-13 22:02:49

I think they'd have to do the three years again.

For easy to read, well-informed political comment on Scottish current affairs, Iain MacWhirter's blog is rather brilliaint. And I'm a tiny bit in love with [[ Ian Bell too, but then I'm a bit of a 70's leftie.

OldLadyKnowsNothing Thu 21-Feb-13 22:04:13
13Iggis Thu 21-Feb-13 22:07:34

I wouldn't make plans now, hopefully by the time they're ready for uni the revolution will have already happened and education will be free wink

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 21-Feb-13 22:08:34

I so don't want to be mean to you Op, but how the hell are you doing a degree without the slightest knowledge of politics?
I'm beginning to wonder if you're real.

OP I know you said don't take the mick and I'm not, but I'm staggered as to how you live in Scotland and didn't know who our First Minister is or what devolution is.

Like 13Iggis says I'd also expect the UK to know that Scotland has its own parliament. I feel that there may be people who think we have a kid on parliament and are just playing at this when in fact it was a major deal for Scotland and it's people.

But fair play to you for saying you don't know. At least you're asking questions and you know who Salmond is now smile

49CremeEggs Thu 21-Feb-13 22:25:30

I can assure you i'm real, LadyBeagle. Perhaps just too honest. And feeling incredibly stupid.

It's just something my mum never paid much interest in, so i didn't. She always rolled her eyes and huffed whenever my dad turned on the news or started debating with my sister over elections etc. As i say, i don't watch the news. Rarely i'll catch a glimpse of English news, or English online papers.

My last degree didn't involve politics at all. But the one i'm about to do probably will (NHS-related), so i'll have to research cuts etc a bit better throughout the course.

Thanks for the links and being patient with me. I've been called some right horrid names on another site whenever i mentioned something that revealed my lack of political knowledge before.

It would be truly terrfiying if SAAS ceased to exist. Actually feel sick at the thought of having to pay such high fees for my daughter to get through uni. Or her having all that debt.

I can remember hearing something last year about the English fees increasing. I just didn't expect it to be this much.

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 21-Feb-13 22:30:10

I'm pretty sure you'd have to be living here 3 years prior to applying to be entitled to funding. You should check the SAAS website for more answers.

Well calling you names for lack of knowledge isn't on. We all have topics that we maybe aren't interested in and wouldn't have a scooby do about but so what? There's nothing worse than some patronising twat talking down to you and making you feel small if you don't know something.

Anyway, all you have to do is a bit of research, an email or phone call to SAAS and you should have some answers. I totally believe in a free education for all but sadly think those days are long gone

LadyBeagleEyes Thu 21-Feb-13 22:53:49

49CremeEggs. Like I say to my ds who's 17, read a paper every day and catch a news as well.
And when I say paper, avoid the tabloids, get a Herald, Scotsman, Times,etc there's so many to choose from, and there are regular news broadcasts at 6pm and 10pm.
Educate yourself, and I'm so so sorry if I sound patronising, I don't mean to, I just don't understand how you don't know about the Scottish Parliament

MrsKeithRichards Thu 21-Feb-13 22:58:36

I genuinely believe my seven year old has a better understanding of devolution but that's because we have the news on at least once a day, we talk and debate and he picks up on things. Our parents were the same.

ssd Thu 21-Feb-13 23:09:40

op, do you live in a bubble?? sheesh

tell me you're joking

Southwest Thu 21-Feb-13 23:21:28

Yanbu to be gobsmacked
your gov is being unreasonable to set fees so high for th English and racist!!
Are the English a subset of Scotland though?

Don't understand why it is free for so many euro students though either

My game plan was to buy some cheap hut in Scotland so they would pay dcs fees took me embarrassingly too long to realize they would catch me out by where the dcs were schooled!!!!!

I've already advised the dcs to look to Europe or the States
Poor things they are in primary school!!!!

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 22-Feb-13 00:15:20


We realise we're a bit late to this thread, and that things have moved on now - but we just wanted to put in a bit of a plea for civility and cross-border niceness in these debates about the Independence referendum and other matters concerning relationships between the home nations.

Obviously there are going to be a lot of discussions about the referendum and the merits of the different positions, and as ever we fully expect MNers to get stuck in - but we can't help thinking it would be best if these debates could be articulated without resorting to insulting generalisations about any of the nationalities within the UK.

As you know, we like to let debate range as freely as possible, but in the interests of harmony on the board and our inbox we'd really appreciate a bit of peace and love on this topic - whatever your viewpoint.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 00:29:54

Hmm, OK Rowan.
But I bet your inbox is not full of English people being offended, in fact that would be a rare or almost non existent event and would be deleted sharply.
I think so many Scots on here who try to talk about our devolved Parliament, or Education fees or Independence even, have the worse insults that can `legally` be said, witthout it being deleted.
But WTF, we are not worthy.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 22-Feb-13 07:16:45

I agree Lady, it seems those north of the border are fair game.

The first rule about responding to teasing is not to rise to the bait. I learned that in Scotland.

FannyFifer Fri 22-Feb-13 07:54:32

Always the same Lady, it's rather tiresome.
It's the lack of "getting" why we are offended that is the most galling really.

FannyFifer Fri 22-Feb-13 07:55:20

Being called Nazi's is not teasing.

MissAnnersley Fri 22-Feb-13 07:55:38

Couldn't agree with you more Lady. This is just situation normal on MN. Any discussion around the political situation within Scotland degenerates almost immediately.

As for MNHQ - ' it would be best if these debates could be articulated without resorting to insulting generalisations about any of the nationalities within the UK.'

Really? I find that a generalisation. It is not Scottish posters doling out the insults.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 22-Feb-13 08:13:28

Toad, being Scottish, banter is part of my manner, sit in a room with my besties and I and you'd think we hated each other by the way we talk to each other. I'm well versed in it.

As a nation, we aren't known for being po faced and taking offence. So when we do, it must be bad!

It also stinks because you hear so much about Scots being anti English yet I've seen no evidence of that. Quite the opposite. It's like a messy divorce, meant to be amicable until the hysterical partner starts throwing around insults in a 'well I never liked you anyway' kind of way.

ssd Fri 22-Feb-13 08:19:40

I think the english should be more worried about devolution than us, is we become independant they've got the tories forever grin

maybe thats why they're being rude and insulting, its actually the fear talking


Yes, I think it must be one of those irregular verbs, ie:

I use banter.
You tease.
They make nasty, racist remarks.

OptimisticPessimist Fri 22-Feb-13 08:34:39

I have to say I have lived in Scotland for 10 years and (aside from the times when there were international football tournaments going on) I have experienced very little banter based on my being English let alone anything actually malicious. Most people don't even mention it. I'm sorry if that wasn't your experience Toad, but there are nasty, unkind people in all countries and it seems you ran into some in Scotland. On this thread though, and on all the others I have been on, the derogatory comments have been pretty much 100% against Scotland and Scottish people.

Scottish, living in Scotland, I didn't go to university, nor did DH but we are both flying high careerwise. He is in the public sector, I'm private. He has more job security than me and will continue to do so whether we are independent or not. There is so much emphasis these days pushing university or your life is over. My peers who went to uni, not one of them is working in the industry their degree is in bar one (doctor), I am at the same level as them money wise through experience and the odd course to prove my experience!

When it comes to DS leaving school, I will make sure he does what he wants but I sure as hell won't be pushing him to go to uni.

At the age of 25 my brother (who was written off by his school as he wasn't academic enough) is a plumber. He has his own business and employs people. He is by far the most successful of his friends so far.

Uni isn't everything! (I appreciate this debate has moved on, but I just wanted to add my tuppence worth)

Must go now I have some English neighbours I need to hurl abuse at!

MrsKeithRichards Fri 22-Feb-13 09:50:57

Oh how I laughed when holidaying in Englandshire and the 'news' about Andy Murray and the whole anyone but England stuff broke. We were all like confused have they only just realised?

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 09:51:09

I think its highly likely that the Scots will be fine without us after devolution. After all they managed to fight off the biggest army in history with their bare hands.

Free university education is not frittering away taxpayers money it is an investment however I can understand why you wouln't want to subsidise the people that tried to starve your families in the name of upholding land laws and want to welcome the children of more trustworthy nations.

mrsjay Fri 22-Feb-13 09:52:46

I think its highly likely that the Scots will be fine without us after devolution.

well we are doing fine we have had devolution for years and on our 3rd First Minster

mrsjay Fri 22-Feb-13 09:54:27

4th forgot about Henry Mcliesh (sp)

MrsKeithRichards Fri 22-Feb-13 10:00:01

And we're not allowed to be pissed of as that's us being bitter holding grudges and having that oft quoted 'chip on our shoulder´.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 22-Feb-13 10:00:56

Pissed of about the past that should say

I certainly did meet some unpleasant characters inScotland. As I noted myself, such people are to be found everywhere. What makes me have little patience with Scottish nationalism is that a number of those people have been Scots. They have tended to exhibit hyper-sensitivity to any perceived criticism of Scotland and are very quick to read in implied slights and insults.

I have noticed this tendency in the independence debate- criticism tends to be met with allegations of bad faith or lies.

I hate to admit it, but to be frank, it really saddens me that independence is even on the agenda. It seems instinctively silly to split a small island in two. It is like watching a squabbling couple.

Until Cameron stops sulking about the I dependence vote and starts to debate on what may happen in the event of a yes vote, I'm in the Yes camp. All this "I won't discuss until the votes have been cast" smacks of a greedy child refusing to let someone else play with his toys even if he doesn't want to play with them either! His petulance will push the undecided voters the way of the party that is actually presenting their hopes for independence! All this smokescreen with the EU is beginning to wear thin!

OptimisticPessimist Fri 22-Feb-13 10:22:00

To be honest, every time Cameron opens his mouth on the subject he manages to push me further towards voting yes. He keeps going on about making a fact-based argument for the Union but then he presents vague arguments about "shared history" and saying we're "better together" without actually explaining why he thinks that hmm

Exactly OptimisticPessimist, maybe we should just let him hang himself out to dry!

I said to DH the other day that they will witter on non commitally until the months leading up to the vote then, depending on the polls I think they might throw devo max on the table if a no vote wins.

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 10:31:02

Not a great deal of 'shared history' at least that wasn't shared without force or threat. English army would be sunk without the Scots recruits.

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 10:34:50

Toad its not a "squabbling couple" its a history steeped in blood and betrayal. If you want to use that analogy you are minimising and gaslighting.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Feb-13 12:56:00

I am certain that if it was a squabbling couple, and Scotland posted on the relationships board asking for advice and giving the history there would be a pretty unanimous LTB grin

FannyFifer Fri 22-Feb-13 13:18:45

Laughing at LTB. grin

Catchingmockingbirds Fri 22-Feb-13 13:21:09

Leave the bastard or leave the Britain?

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 13:41:22

"he once tried to kill me and now makes me live with a set of rules which I didn't choose" ..



LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 13:45:42

grin ItsAllGoingToBeFine.
What a brilliant anology.

FannyFifer Fri 22-Feb-13 13:48:28

"He says that there is no way I am a separate person, I am an extension of himself, therefore no need for me to have an opinion" LTBgrin

OptimisticPessimist Fri 22-Feb-13 13:51:51

"He takes all my money and then gives me an allowance based on what he thinks is reasonable"


13Iggis Fri 22-Feb-13 14:12:24

"We both like sports. Whenever I do well and win an award, he says it is our award, but when he wins something it is just his. Is this fair?"

Nicecuppachar Fri 22-Feb-13 14:17:40

" We both love football but she always insists upon supporting any team but mine "

" I earn more than her but she gets more to spend on herself than I do"

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 14:18:19

"he has a big shiny face and really annoying manner"

oops, sorry, getting too personal now winkgrin

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 14:21:29

nicecuppachar..I assume you are talking from the perspective of a Scottish person there..given that Scotland contributes more in revenue than it takes out wink Don't know what you mean about the teams though

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 14:21:53

Got the whole family in stitches here. LTB

"He says I am being over sensitive when he criticises me"

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 14:23:15

"He called Andy Murray Scottish until he was in the Wimbledon final when he supported him"

Nicecuppachar Fri 22-Feb-13 14:25:26

fanjo what, you've never heard of supporting Anyone But England? shock

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 14:27:39

nicecuppachar..i have heard people moaning about that yes. But I wasn't sure how it fitted in with your allegory as England don't subsidise Scotland and Scotland contribute more in revenue than we take out.

So you must have been talking about Scotland subsidising England. Doesn't then make sense for an English person to be supporting "anyone but England" wink

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 14:29:56

"There's always a different rule fo him and a different rule for me. I was forced to pay poll tax against my wishes when he didn't have to."

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 14:30:49


"he always bangs on about subsidising me when I actually have a better paid job, so I don't know what he is on about" wink

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 14:33:47

There's more red flags in the Anglo Scots relationship than you'd find in a labour party conference.

Catchingmockingbirds Fri 22-Feb-13 14:41:10

"he always bangs on about subsidising me when I actually have a better paid job, so I don't know what he is on about"

grin I love this!

FannyFifer Fri 22-Feb-13 14:44:05

"He makes me look after his dangerous belongings, I have to keep them in my pocket, he doesn't mind if I become a target or get killed because of them".


pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 14:44:25

"He has special relationships with other women. He told me he was going to leave her if she didn't give him more money but she wouln't give him any. Yet he keeps going back to her. Actually I think he's a bit needy."


pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 14:48:16

"He said he was going to build me a big house but he didn't give me enough money to finish it and humiliated me when I had to go and ask for more."

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 14:56:44

"He thinks I should pay for his OWs childrens education and resents the fact that I want to pay for mine to go to uni."


OldLadyKnowsNothing Fri 22-Feb-13 14:59:28

I may be a bit thick, but I'm not quite getting your analogies, polly. confused

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 15:02:44

"He picks fight with foreign men and makes me do the actual fighting / dirty work while he sits around discussung it and taking the praise for being tough."


pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 15:03:58

Read upthread old lady.

OptimisticPessimist Fri 22-Feb-13 15:08:31

Aye, some of those last few need translating confused

acceptableinthe80s Fri 22-Feb-13 15:38:35

LTB could be the yes campaigners slogan smile

ubik Fri 22-Feb-13 15:58:05

This is interesting.

I wonder when Scottish people are friendly to my face at work/ school gates/ in the pub, the attitudes above see what they are really thinking - I am from south London.

I think the 'anyone but England' stuff shows a lack of confidence in the same vein as the tabloid football 'war' against Germany.

I find these independence debates odd as I have a different conception of Scottish identity. I have lived here for 10 years, I have children in school, I pay taxes, I work for NHS Scotland.

I am friends with Scots and the many immigrants from all over the world who are my neighbours - I don't see independence as a rejection of England so much as a bid for self determination. I see the traditional England / Scottish animosity as tedious and irrelevant to independent - surely the point is that Scotland has to find a new identity as an independent country, home to people of all races, colours and creeds.

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 16:00:56

The attitudes above are only insulting/mocking

a) The Tory Government.
or b) The sort of English poster who comes on these threads and says England is subsidising Scotland and makes anti-Scottish comments.

Since you are not like that, you don't need to be wondering anything about what Scots people are thinking.

HTH smile

FannyFifer Fri 22-Feb-13 16:03:56

But it's not the people of England that anyone has a problem with, it's not personal, it's about being ruled by a different country, by a government we didn't vote for.

AmberSocks Fri 22-Feb-13 16:10:05

I would like to move to Scotland,i have only been to Edinburgh ad Tobamory though,but both seemed nice friendly places.I know the whole place isn't like that but neither is England!

lashingsofbingeinghere Fri 22-Feb-13 16:11:27

It is not clear that the oil in the North Sea is Scotland's. According to some legal definitions a lot of it is in English waters.

From Wiki: "by international convention maritime boundaries extend along the line of the land border. Looking at the Scottish English land border this heads north east from Berwick pointing towards Bergen in Norway rather than east towards Denmark as envisaged by many. A large proportion of the North Sea oil fields would under this scenario therefore belong to England not Scotland."

Post independence, there would be a massive and expensive wrangle to establish title to the oil.

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 16:19:33

"New house" Scottish Parliament building
"Picks fights" Iraq / scots soldiers
"Special relationships" Europe & US
"Education" obvious surely


Dozer Fri 22-Feb-13 16:25:47

Scotland (and wales and NI) have more money to spend per head than england, through the "barnett formula" which is really old but was intended to be temporary.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 22-Feb-13 17:06:50

"Some of his mates don't even know I exist, they ignore me!"

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 18:13:38

"His Mum stays over for months every Summer and doesn't give us any money for food & bills"


LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 18:37:14

I don't understand that last one polly, am I just being thick?

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 18:43:52

The Queen. wink

FannyFifer Fri 22-Feb-13 19:13:01

"Mil also had a tea party that she makes me pay for but doesn't invite me" wink

Geranium3 Fri 22-Feb-13 20:38:48

49creme eggs, ok your tuition fees are lower but i bet your heating bills in freezing scotland must be 5times higher than ours in the much warmer south west so what i save in heating bills will be the differential in uni fees i reckon!!!
And we don't have to endure your ghastly mr salmond, god he gives me the creeps!

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 20:43:00

Yes, it's a whole few degrees warmer on average, positively tropical hmm

13Iggis Fri 22-Feb-13 20:51:19

Temperatures in London and Edinburgh are exactly the same at the moment.

Geranium3 Fri 22-Feb-13 21:02:06

we are over 300miles west of london, why do so many people think london is the centre of the universe?!!!

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 21:02:47

Thanks to hefty EU subsidies forced on Scotland by the English they have well insulated homes and plenty of sustainable fuel to see them through. This will enable them to continue studying for their degree through the winter months.

Meanwhile I freeze in my rattly drafty English house.

redlac Fri 22-Feb-13 21:04:43

Don't forget the the lovely water we have up here Polly! When the south has its hosepipe ban we have it falling out of the sky! Maybe we could export the water when the oil runs out smile

49CremeEggs Fri 22-Feb-13 21:05:27

Oh dear, getting quite lost here.

Geranium - my heating is hardly on. I much prefer to put on an extra layer when chilly. But even if the heating was on 24/7, i doubt it would equate to £9,000 a year. This is a ghastly amount for a university to charge.

And from what i've learned on this thread, our 'ghastly' Mr Salmond is giving uni education to Scots for free or for £1,850 a year max.

13Iggis Fri 22-Feb-13 21:13:01

Geranium if I were to google your exact location's temperature I would've needed to know where you live!

redlac Fri 22-Feb-13 21:13:02

Hahaha at our heating bills being 5 times higher - we don't all live up a snow covered mountain you know

Yet more ill informed shite about Scotland

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 21:13:27

That's the daftest thing I've ever read.
In my little corner of the NW Highlands we have had no snow this year.
And an amazing summer where we had practically no rain at all while the rest of the UK drowned in it.
I kept shouting at the weather forecast on the telly and to people on MN saying 'But it's nice here'.
Ok, it's not the norm, but our temperature differences in general, are negligible.

Geranium3 Fri 22-Feb-13 21:13:32

OP i did have my tongue rather firmly in my cheek with my previous remarks!
Years ago we lived in stonehaven and then near glasgow and really enjoyed it, though sorry alex salmond i can't take to!

49CremeEggs Fri 22-Feb-13 21:14:29

Sorry, Geranium! Really hard to read people's tones on here sometimes.

Sorry again. smile

redlac Fri 22-Feb-13 21:17:12

300 miles west of London? I'm guessing Cornwall which is currently -2c Edinburgh is current at 1c


ubik Fri 22-Feb-13 21:17:32

Edinburgh is fucking freezing. Absolutely Baltic.

49CremeEggs Fri 22-Feb-13 21:20:40

It's sad that i might actually turn down future work opportunities in England because of all this. I wouldn't want to risk my dd losing out on her potentially SAAS funded fees. So i could end up giving up a well paid NHS job opportunity in England to avoid my dd getting a massive debt. It's just so stupid.

I really hope that English fees will go back down by the time my dd goes to uni (if she decides to go of course that is - i'd never push it on her).

FanjoForTheMammaries Fri 22-Feb-13 21:22:20

Ladybeagle..DH is from NW Highlands..lovely part of the world

13Iggis Fri 22-Feb-13 21:27:33

Bear in mind your dd may have her own ideas about where she wants to study - she may not want to stay in Scotland!
Also, if your work opportunities are significantly better in England, the extra money you can save might even out the cost of fees.

Geranium3 Fri 22-Feb-13 21:28:36

no worries OP, i'm actually jealous of your uni fees, that is how it should be for everyone in the UK, i am still angry with the liberal democrats that they broke their promise at the last election of no uni fees.

Roseformeplease Fri 22-Feb-13 21:34:15

Drought here last summer. Hosepipe ban on the islands and the real danger of running out of water. No snow and glorious weather at the moment. What's not to love?

But....I am English and have been here a long time and I HATE sports yet still have to be ridiculed and insulted by a minority of wankers whenever there is any kind of England / Scotland football thing on. Rugby fans aren't bothered but I found the Anyone But England thing, frankly, insulting. Some of the comments, if you substituted another rqce, would be taken far more seriously. The English seem to be fair game, sadly.

My husband is Scottish, as are my children, and he finds the whole attitude rather embarrassing. (He went to University with Salmond who, he maintains, is racist and looks like a guppy).

I also have concerns that the free tuition is keeping students in Scotland (teacher - see it all the time) and so bringing up a generation who are increasingly insular, parochial and not prepared to compete. If you just pop down the road to the local Uni with your mates you are missing out on the chance to spread your wings. Large parts of Scotland are far from multi-cultural and I would love my own children to go to London, Dublin, Cardiff (anywhere) for University. Sadly, they will be restricted to Scotland by the desire to avoid paying fees. Not sure that the Tuition thing for English students isn't being challenged in the courts at the moment.

redlac Fri 22-Feb-13 21:43:57

I don't think that that is necessarily due to the fees though - everyone I know that went to uni did so in Scotland - not necessarily their local one though.

I'm pretty certain that by the time my DD is of age to go to Uni that the fees will be in place and Scotland will be on different from the rest of the uk - it won't be like this forever

SarahLundKicksAss Fri 22-Feb-13 21:46:53

That's a really interesting perspective Rose about Scots students staying in Scotland. I think you're right; it must create a sense of insularity. I am English, live in England. My DS is at a Scottish uni, and he's loving his uni live Glasgow, which is very different to home (we live in quite a rural village). I have friends in Scotland; their DD would love to study in England, but has decided to stick with a slightly less appealing course for her in Scotland, due to the fees issue.

Roseformeplease Fri 22-Feb-13 21:52:52

Yes, many did stay in Scotland. But many also went elsewhere. I was at both Exeter and Cambridge and both were full of Scots in the 80s/90s and my own Scottish pupils did sometimes cross the border but no one has done for a few years now - not even for an Oxbridge offer.

Roseformeplease Fri 22-Feb-13 21:54:34

It is also a problem for some courses. In Scotland there are not many places to study Pharmacy. Also, medicine can only be studied the "traditional" way - you can't transfer from another related degree as you can in England, further narrowing options. Some languages are hard to come by. Etc etc.

ReturnOfEmeraldGreen Fri 22-Feb-13 22:05:11

Ah Rose, I feared that would be the case sad I grew up in the Central Belt and went to Bristol University. 2 others from my year went south, IIRC - one to Imperial, the other to Lancaster. Everyone else went to Glasgow or Stirling, and this was in the early '90s, pre-fees and with a diminishing grant still in existence. I put down 5 English universities on my UCAS form and my 'guidance teacher' called me in for an interview and asked me what my problem was, and if I was 'running away from something' - I just burst out laughing, much to her displeasure grin

It saddens me that fees will discourage Scottish students from going to English universities - going south enormously enhanced my life and I would have hated to feel unable to do it. 'Insular' and 'parochial' are sadly words that I tend to use and upset people with think when I consider Scotland today.

13Iggis Fri 22-Feb-13 22:21:25

Returnofemeraldgreen - your experience suggests the desire to attend local universities predates the fees issue. Most people (by no means all, but most) of Northern Irish people go to the NI universities. People don't always want to leave their country.
Also, on this thread people are talking about English students having to pay fees in Scotland - I assume this applies to NIrish and Welsh students too, but as usual "the rest of the UK" seems to be translated into "English"!

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 22:22:15

Aw, come on Rose, with sporting events, yes you will be mocked and ridiculed.
As is my brother, who's lived in the South East longer than when he left Scotland at 21, and he's now in his 50's. It's banter, and it happens everywhere.
I remember many, many years ago leaving a rugby match when Scotland defeated Wales, and some Welsh supporters said 'fair enough, as long as you beat the English', it's a thing, it will always be, which is why devolution was the best thing that ever happened.
And maybe we need to question why people think that way.
I remember speaking to a a bloke when I was on holiday in Greece a couple of years ago. He was a nice intelligent man, but when he said Edinburgh was one of the most beautiful cities in England I was a bit shock. That sort of ignorance shouldn't matter, but it irrationally annoyed me
I haven't decided yet how I'll vote yet on Independence,I'll weigh the pros and cons, and it certainly won't be because I hate the English.
Oh, and as for universities being parochial, you've got to be kidding.
There is a huge mix of International students at most Scottish universities, Edinburgh and Glasgow particularly where there are many English students.
But I suppose their influence will keep us on our Scottish toes, we can't be seen to be to uppity.

ReturnOfEmeraldGreen Fri 22-Feb-13 22:25:23

uppity hmm

ubik Fri 22-Feb-13 22:34:33

I don't recognise the parochial thing either - DD's school has around 70 languages spoken, children from all over the world attend.

People behave as if Scottish people never leave Scotkand -practically everyone Scottish I have spoken to has lived in England at some point for study or work, or have family down there. And there are plenty of people from the rest of the world who have made Scotland their home.

BegoniaBampot Fri 22-Feb-13 22:51:39

Nearly everyone I know from my town (family and friends) still live there. Very few leave or even move a mile or two to the next town. My nieces and nephews all went to Uni/college just a few miles away and all stayed living with their parents through their studies.

Parochial and insular is how I feel about it,especially for the small towns etc.

goingmadinthecountry Fri 22-Feb-13 22:57:58

Law at Edinburgh is offered at an average of BBB - great for a top university, but it's Scottish law so not much good down here. Of dd's 5 offers last year, 4 were AAA.

And with the 21k loan thing, none of my 4 dcs intend to start a job on less so hopefully will be paying straight away. Wish I could afford for them not to have that debt - they don't deserve to start life like that. At least I can afford for them not to have the maintenance loan on its ridiculous CPI+ percentage. It's worth it to me.

I resent this government in too many ways to mention. We can afford to support our dcs to some extent and having both been there ourselves know the value of a good university education. I know of A level students from last year with straight As/A* who are opting not to go to university due to family circumstances.

I'm not saying we can afford to provide free places as we did in the 80s, but this year is a step too far.

Roseformeplease Fri 22-Feb-13 23:00:15

It is really just English students paying (and non EU) as Welsh students have their fees paid by the Welsh Assembly, NI students, in many cases, have an Irish passport, so can count as EU, not UK. And yes, there is a mix of students at many Universities but many parts of Scotland are not ethnically diverse (mine, for example) and that is reflected in the mix of home grown students at Universities. Bristol, I suspect, is far more diverse than St Andrews etc etc. also, a Scot travelling to Bristol, as above will make a wider range of friends from all over than those that run home every weekend (night?) as many do who do not travel far.

My husband's Scottish friend hated Glasgow in the 80s as many of the students still lived at home and so he found it hard to get to know them as they mixed only with old friends.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 22-Feb-13 23:08:25

The other problem with Scots studying at English universities is that of enough English universities don't understand the Scottish Education system. They often devalue the Scottish exams and ask for unrealistic grades. Once you actually get in on may find that you are missing large chunks of knowledge that our English compatriots have, and it is just assumed that you do to.

I think in a lot of cases that is why Scottish students tend to stay in Scotland. Besides, going to lie in a different city is a big enough adventure. You don't need to move to a different country to spread your wings...

pollypandemonium Fri 22-Feb-13 23:11:08

So if it's always been 'parochial and insular' then banning fees on university education won't make any difference. I find that when people are born and die in the same area there is more stability within the community and a greater sense of social responsibility. A transient population isn't always the best thing.

LadyBeagleEyes Fri 22-Feb-13 23:47:27

I beg to differ ItsAll, the English education system is a mess.
In Scotland, you just go to the allocated school in your area unless you decide to go private.
I can't believe the angst on here about 'which school should I send my child' from so many posters.
And the Scottish universities have a history of producing the best Medical schools, which is why Edinburgh is inundated with English students.

indyandlara Sat 23-Feb-13 07:43:57

Unfortunately Lady this is not the case in Edinburgh. Every year an enormous number of parents apply for out of catchment places and many of tthem which cannot be granted. There is much angst about school places in Edinburgh and the legal appeal system is often rumbling on well into September. I would imagine something similar happens in most big cities. It certainly does in our local school in a small town.

13Iggis Sat 23-Feb-13 08:06:00

NI students, in many cases, have an Irish passport
Ha ha ha.

deste Sat 23-Feb-13 19:29:52

Indyandlara it doesn't happen in Aberdeen. You usually go to the nearest school.

SanityClause Sat 23-Feb-13 19:32:58

It's okay, OP.

When Scotland becomes independent, we will all be able to send our DC to university in Scotland FOR FREE!

13Iggis Sat 23-Feb-13 19:37:32

Deste, leaving aside the large number of Edinburgh children who are sent to private schools, most children there do go to the local school. There may well be requests that don't get met, but at least everyone is guaranteed a place at the local, catchment school.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 23-Feb-13 20:26:06

Only if Scotland is part of the EU...

indyandlara Sat 23-Feb-13 21:34:30

13Iggis my school turned down around 15 kids for a class of 25 this year in p1. Deste that's interesting as I would have presumed Aberdeen would have been similar.

Everyone may be a guaranteed a place in their catchment school but that doesn't mean that everyone is happy with that. There is a lot of movement of children out with catchment (not including private) and a huge amount of angst among parents if nursery and p7 kids who are worrying about their next year.

SarahLundKicksAss Sun 24-Feb-13 09:31:19

If Scotland becomes independent, and remains in the EU, then IF there is still free tuition for EU students, the scottish unis will be completely swamped with english applicants - this will have a huge impact on the english HE sector (many ex-poly unis will be forced to close), and will mean that scottish students will face greater competition to get into their home unis.

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