re Facebook and the pictures of James Bulger's killers

(348 Posts)

A friend of mine on Facebook has posted the pictures of James Bulger's killers as they look 'today'. I have no idea where they have come from or if they are actually the two men involved (and I don't know if she knows any of this information).

AIBU to report these pictures? She has had loads of support under her post.

Fairylea Fri 15-Feb-13 16:12:25
TheBigJessie Fri 15-Feb-13 16:15:14

Report to facebook. While you're at it, feel free to tell your friend about the legal penalties for being in contempt of court. I would.

ImKateandsoismywife Fri 15-Feb-13 16:26:42

I've just had this pop up on my newsfeed too. I've reported it but it looks like its already all over fb.

AmberLeaf Fri 15-Feb-13 16:28:53

The 1990 pics are of the same boy, not even both of them which brings doubt over who the adult pics are of.

Anyone that shares those pics is an imbecile IMO.

I hadnt thought of reporting, I just deleted the 'friend' that posted them

quoteunquote Fri 15-Feb-13 17:13:05

if you google the names, the picture are out there, report on FB, but a can is open, worms all over the place.

HollyBerryBush Fri 15-Feb-13 17:22:36

I've just had that flash up on my wall - I've reported it.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 17:29:08

thankfully havent had those yet ...I have had a lovely poem about the domestic (allegedly) murder of a young woman by her athlete boyfriend - I was very clear how funny I found those angry

I've reported it to facebook, but they've refused to delete the picture under any of the available categories. confused

thefirstmrsrochester Fri 15-Feb-13 17:38:46

This came up on my wall. Friend who 'shared' it is an asshole, now deleted & reported to fb. Why won't fb delete the page fgs?

WilsonFrickett Fri 15-Feb-13 17:40:15

I am so, so disappointed by the 'friends' who have shared this, three of them I would have considered sensible, bright people. <sighs>

AmberLeaf Fri 15-Feb-13 17:56:15

The comments under the picture though hmm

Some people are ridiculous.

HollyBerryBush Fri 15-Feb-13 17:57:25

I'm now in the middle of a FB row about it (LMAO).

This friend has posted pictures of both the killers. FB can be so dangerous this way. I will report it.

HollyBerryBush Fri 15-Feb-13 18:01:38

It's idiots and pack mentality - and if Number One Knob says 'what if they killed yours?' as a line of defence for posting them, I swear I might get very very annoyed!

Whywont facebook take them down? His identity is protected.

HollyBerryBush Fri 15-Feb-13 18:25:40

They will if you report - no organisation can keep tabs on everything posted once it goes viral.

Figgygal Fri 15-Feb-13 18:25:44

Who is to say its really the right people very stupid and dangerous game!! angry

Fairylea Fri 15-Feb-13 18:27:02

They shouldn't be on facebook. And they shouldn't be shared. But they've been all over the internet since he was arrested. It's not "new" apart from Twitter reposting them in the last few days. I don't expect facebook really care too much considering how easily available the photos are just by googling them..wrong but true.

florry88 Fri 15-Feb-13 18:46:35

It has appeared and disappeard twice on mine today, this isnt the point but the picture of them at age 10 is of the same one, differnet photos but same child.

TheBigJessie Fri 15-Feb-13 18:51:15

Facebook towers are useless, even when you do report. You'd think they could afford to have a huge 24 hour call-centre of people checking reports, and tracking shares, if they wanted. With BANS. As it is, hoax propagation pages, hate groups against individuals and illegal activity stays around for weeks.

Fairylea Fri 15-Feb-13 18:51:25

Actually the two photos of the older man is meant to be the same one too. Before and after weight loss in prison apparently.

OptimisticPessimist Fri 15-Feb-13 18:55:30

There must be several of these circulating, the one that popped up on mine definitely had the mug shots of both boys from the time of their arrest coupled with two different men. I reported it but wasn't really sure which category to use, and FB don't let you type in a reason hmm

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Fri 15-Feb-13 19:00:16

I don't like these pictures because these men may be completely innocent and this could potentially ruin their lives, even endanger them.

Those two boys have already ruined enough lives for them to continue to do so due to other people's stupidity. One man took his own life a few years ago due to people accusing him of being one of these killers. So sad. This is why Denise Bulger does not want their identities to be kept secret, as innocent people could be harmed or killed.

If it turns out that these pictures are of them, just on the off chance, then i have no sympathy.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Fri 15-Feb-13 19:01:27

Denise Fergus, sorry.

WidowWadman Fri 15-Feb-13 19:02:58

I've just defriended a colleague because of this.

babyfirefly1980 Fri 15-Feb-13 19:06:55

I was going to start a thread about this...it has come up alot on my FB.

I think it is very dangerous to say the least, you can't put pictures of people on the internet and claim they are child killers when nobody knows who they are. So irresponsible without any proof at all.

AmberLeaf Fri 15-Feb-13 19:33:57

Ive seen pictures of 3 different adult men that are supposed to be either JV or RT.

One man is already dead after killing himself after being wrongly accused of being RT a few years back.

People are just so bloody thick!

Midori1999 Fri 15-Feb-13 19:39:44

I saw this earlier as someone I know had shared it and wondered if it was actually him or just the usual crap that circulates on facebook that people share without finding out if it's true or not.

I suspect it's not him and that some poor person will have their life ruined over this, or worse...

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 19:51:58

I've just had these come up on my fb news feed, and was wondering what it says about the people who are sharing them.

It wouldn't be something I would do, but some people might like the feeling they're able to do something for James Bulger and his mum by lessening the places Jon Venables can hide from how society as a whole feels about him.

ifancyashandy Fri 15-Feb-13 20:02:54

But the issue is, not all society feel the same way about him. That's why I hate the pictures appearing on my timeline.

Don't get me wrong, I remember the horrific, heinous, tragedy and my repulsion at it hasn't lessened. But 'outing' the 'murderers' (only in inverted commas due to not knowing if those featured in the photos are those involved) does nothing but create a witch hunt.

And I want no part of that.

gimmecakeandcandy Fri 15-Feb-13 20:06:24

You have defriended people for posting these pics? Really? If these are the photos of these monsters I couldn't care less if they are posted everywhere as they never should have been let out. I personally would not post these pictures or comment on them but I don't care for these two lowlifes at all.

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 20:11:04

Perhaps 'on the whole' would have been more accurate ifancy?

I don't agree with hounding people across the internet either, but a lot of people who aren't affected by it directly and feel strongly probably see the easy click of a mouse as a way of 'getting involved' IYSWIM?

Fairylea Fri 15-Feb-13 20:11:24

Gimmie... I think the point is no one knows IF it is him or not. So effectively they could be making an innocent man a walking dead man.

If it was absolutely certain it was him I wouldn't care either. But we don't know that.

WidowWadman Fri 15-Feb-13 20:12:04

gimmecake

Yes, I have defriended, because

a) vigilantism is moronic and wrong
b) contempt of court is moronic and wrong
c) spreading unverified rumours is moronic, wrong and libellous.

I don't need morons on my friends list.

I agree that the major issue here is potentially finger pointing at an innocent man.

However, I do think that even if I was sure it was him, I still would want no part of it. Vigilantism is not the way.

MortifiedAdams Fri 15-Feb-13 20:15:19

It is dangerous, posdibly deadly, to post photos of random.men who may or may not be JV or RT. I will be reporting shiuld they appear.on my feed.

somewherewest Fri 15-Feb-13 20:19:14

I'm now in the middle of a FB row about it (LMAO).

I've just written a Facebook update asking people not to share them as some idiot somewhere is a going to beat the shit out of an innocent man because he happens to look like one of the pictures. I'm wondering if the friend who shared them will respond to it! The picture was on 25,000 shares when I got it.

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 20:19:57

What kind of person was the one you defriended though Widow?

I wouldn't get rid of a good friend on there for posting that, it's not a good choice to make, but it's hardly on par with a racist rant which'd make you see them in a different light.

Unless you didn't think much of them anyway or this was something you just couldn't get your head round in someone you know?

WidowWadman Fri 15-Feb-13 20:21:43

Why do you think it's hardly on par with a racist rant?

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 20:24:23

Because it's less black and white - to me - Widow.

WidowWadman Fri 15-Feb-13 20:26:09

Well, if you think that contempt of court, libel and vigilantism are acceptable, than that's up to you. I don't.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:26:18

I agree gimmi if they are te actual perpetrators, but it is dangerous if they are not. I would not defriend, overreacting and very heavy handed, Mabey message the person sharing them to say not to share them as they may not bethe actual killers

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:28:02

If they were the actual pictures I don't gve a stuff widow but those pictures may not be the killers

FoxyRevenger Fri 15-Feb-13 20:28:40

I just defriended someone too.

People who post stuff like this just seem to be...so thick, it's the worst kind of lowest common denominator shite that Facebook is bloody riddled with.

Like it or not, these men (who were, lets no forget, children at the time of their crime) have served the punishment they were given. Protecting their new identities is the state's attempt at preventing more criminal acts taking place.

So to go and share what are apparently updated photos of them, which could in reality be anyone at all, is just fucking stupid.

It's not far from here to taking your children to stand outside courts with a sign saying PEEDOS R EEVIL.

DeltaUniformDeltaEcho Fri 15-Feb-13 20:30:05

I saw a couple of these pop up over the last few days. Someone had commented that it was an idiot thing to do and a few years ago someone took his life after someone had wrongly accused him as being one of the boys.

I don't know if that's true but imo it's probably a very real possibility.

TheBigJessie Fri 15-Feb-13 20:30:59

If those pictures are the real McCoy, then some more money is going to go down the drain on new identities.

Gee, thanks, "public-spirited" FB-sharers!

WidowWadman Fri 15-Feb-13 20:34:13

Piglet - I don't think it would be acceptable even if the picture did show the actual guys. What do you actually want to achieve by sharing them? A lynchmob going out and kill them and then bask in the warm glow of the idea that you may have helped find them by sharing?

Society wins nothing by exercising revenge. Nothing that will happen today can undo what happened 20 years ago.

AmberLeaf Fri 15-Feb-13 20:39:58

Delta a man called scott bradley killed himself after being accused of being robert thompson.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:40:14

Though iwouldent I think, a lot f people on here have forgotten that thse boys tortured a little toddler and made his last moments hell on earth, no punishment IMHO is enough forth em. I don't care h old they are, they knew wht they were doing. That little boy was not only killed but tortured in the most horrific way

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:41:00

Silly I pad typing meant for them

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:41:50

So don't blame people for feelings running high

PatButchersEarring Fri 15-Feb-13 20:45:15

Well said, on all counts Widow and Jessie

You've just helped me make my mind up to unfriend the dim wits who have contaminated my news feed with this shit.

Fairylea Fri 15-Feb-13 20:45:20

I don't think people feel justice was done. I think they want them dead, they want them to feel the pain and fear James felt. That alone is the reason for sharing the images I would imagine for a lot of people, to hope someone would kill them.

They are not looking to undo the crime itself by posting them.

I get very annoyed when people seem to think somehow it was different because they were children. My dd is the same age as them and I have no doubt that her and her friends have total understanding of empathy and right from wrong. The boys were found to have acted with cunning and planning. They knew what they were doing.
They could have been 30 or 10. It makes no difference. They knew they acted absolutely horrifically.

MortifiedAdams Fri 15-Feb-13 20:46:04

Piglet what an awful thing to say. NObody on here has forgotten what those two boys did.

Nobody.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:47:20

It seems so mortified te way some people are talking

AmberLeaf Fri 15-Feb-13 20:47:43

I read comments saying they should have been hung when they were 10 years old.

Th irony of it is lost on them.

RandallPinkFloyd Fri 15-Feb-13 20:47:49

My BIL posted it. If it was anyone else I would have defriended in a heartbeat.

We've always had very different views on a lot of things but I'm genuinely sad that he's done this. Sounds ridiculous I know but I'm really disappointed in him. It's made me see him very differently.

Fairylea Fri 15-Feb-13 20:48:23

I don't think they should have been killed. I don't think they should have been let out either.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:49:16

Though I don't agree with lynch mob and vigilante goings on, I believe they should have gotten a far longer custodial sentence that fits the crime

FoxyRevenger Fri 15-Feb-13 20:49:52

Piglet, but why are people's feelings running high? Because they're being told that's how they should feel by a stupid Facebook rumour?

Makes as much sense as those annoying 'share this picture of a flower to help cure this mum dying of cancer' type things.

Do you honestly think that if those men (whether they are actually them or not) are murdered and others end up in prison for that, that you'll all feel better somehow?

If yes, I think that's quite disgusting, actually.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:51:32

I said nothing about killing them roxy, just that they shoud have been locked away far longer

shockers Fri 15-Feb-13 20:52:56

I have reported the pictures because the language that went with them sickened me. Women talking about 'carving them up'. The man in the picture might be one of the killers, but then again, he may not be. It is really irresponsible to post rubbish like these pictures unless you are absolutely sure of the facts. The woman that posted the share I got was clearly acting like some kind of bloodthirsty sheep.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 20:52:59

Sorry foxy doh

Feelings are not running high because of Facebook but the horrific and sadistic way that this little boy was killed. 20 years on its still in my mind before facebook

MortifiedAdams Fri 15-Feb-13 20:55:08

Well we dont practive capital punishment in this country so the killers being killed was never going to be an outcome. A much much longer custodial sentance (mirroring that of the States) would be ideal but the sentencing has been and gone.

It is not for Joe Blogs on the street to take tge law into their own hands.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 15-Feb-13 20:57:08

The whole thing is disgusting.

FoxyRevenger Fri 15-Feb-13 20:57:33

Yes, that was a cross post.

But - that's presumably what people sharing the picture have in mind. What else could they be trying to hint at?

fairylea - "I think they want them dead, they want them to feel the pain and fear James felt" - well, there's any moral high ground slipping away.

I also recall hearing a police officer involved in the case talking about the upbringing either one or both of those boys had, and he said it was horrifically abusive, he/they were never taken care of, loved, given any kind of proper parenting or guidance. No wonder they lacked any empathy at all. What they did was horrendous, just heartbreaking and vile. And their upbringing doesn't negate the crime. But it does provide context, maybe?

Fairylea Fri 15-Feb-13 20:57:47

I still can't believe they only served 7 years.
Much too short a sentence in my opinion.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 20:57:55

yeh but Piglet they where not - mainly because they where CHILDREN

the law spoken - you can't change that - witch hunting possibly innocent people all over FB makes 'you' a twat quiet frankly I would defriend anyone who posted such garbage

I was 21 when it happend Piglet and living in Liverpool - so yes I remember it well - what about you or are you just jumping on a vigilante bandwagon?

iheartmycat Fri 15-Feb-13 20:58:43

This terrifies me. I have an ex partner who looked very like a grown up version of one of the killers (100% not him!!) and when they were first released, I used to be so scared that he wOuld be mistaken for Robert Thomson and attacked. Sending these pics round Facebook is just appealing to vigilantes.

Remotecontrolduck Fri 15-Feb-13 20:58:51

I don't think justice was done at all, I am pretty disgusted in fact at how lightly they got off and regardless of whether they were children or not knew exactly what they were doing and should be permanently put away.

That said, no way should anyone be sharing pictures of supposed killers now on facebook. That's just so wrong, putting the law into your own hands.

Piglet - what makes you think people have forgotten? Because they don't agree with the photos being posted?

AmberLeaf Fri 15-Feb-13 21:00:23

Foxy, yes RT had a horribly abusive homelife and TBH social services should be ashamed that they didn't step in years previously.

Fairylea Fri 15-Feb-13 21:00:36

Foxy I can see what you're saying but at the same time plenty of people suffer horrific childhoods. It doesn't necessarily mean they end up void of empathy. Often the best and most caring people are the ones who missed out on it in their childhoods.

So something was clearly a bit askew somewhere.

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 21:00:44

I think this is linked to the grief porn phenomena, wanting to be a part of it all, feeling directly involved somehow. Nevermind that Mrs Fergus herself has spoken out about how dangerous rumors like this are.

"Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case, if ever a lesson were needed, this is one that shows how dangerous it is to spread false rumours and gossip about something as serious as the identity of child killers."

FB is refusing to delete the photo I reported as it doesn't breach their terms and conditions.

The posting of the picture can have two outcomes. A new very expensive identity for the killers or an innocent man terrified of having his life destroyed or worse until it is confirmed that he is not JV or RT.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 21:03:09

spot on Cortana

you can't want law then take it into your own hand when it doesn;t give you the result YOU want - like some petulant child

the law decided, based on all the evidence - end of

It's like all the civilised adults who surround the court day after day kicking the transport van and baying for the blood of ...two 10 year old children - idiots

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 21:09:06

Gordy does not mean I don agree that they should have received a much longer sentence. Vigilante bandwagon wtf! If you read my posts I said I don't agree with that, but does not make mean I don't have feelings. The Jamie buger killing has made me very very iverprotective of my children when out, when I thnk o his poor parents

DeltaUniformDeltaEcho Fri 15-Feb-13 21:12:58

Thanks amberleaf I thought it was true.

So sad that someone lost his life because everyone jumped on the gossip bandwagon and hounded an innocent person without checking the facts.

I don't think people have forgotten. It was truly horrible thing. I read court transcripts as part of a course and those details will never leave me. But neither will the details of what two 10 year old boys had endured throughout their short lives before that day. It doesn't balance it out, it doesn't make what they did understandable or justify it. It just makes me so very sad. These boys were not born evil but they clearly witnessed enough of it to do what they did.

These facebook vigilantes will do nothing but harm. Aside from the risk of harm to an innocent person wrongly accused what about the fact that these pictures will make their way onto the wall of the people who were closely involved? Imagine having this rubbed in your face in such a horrid gleeful way? Seeing other people scream about cutting people to pieces etc when you probably already feel the world is full evil, violent enough people already.

Reposting this nonsense doesn't make anyone a hero for society. It makes you an idiot imo sad

Flisspaps Fri 15-Feb-13 21:14:32

Absolutely agree with what you say about the 'grief porn' involvement Cortana

piglet his name was James. Not Jamie. Never Jamie.

I'm blocking anyone stupid enough to post the photos on my timeline. I don't want to see their faces every 30 seconds. I use FB for chitchat and light relief. Not to see vigilante incitement and scaremongering.

shockers Fri 15-Feb-13 21:19:39

His name was reported as Jamie at the time Fisspaps.

Flisspaps Fri 15-Feb-13 21:23:02

But Denise Fergus has been very clear since then - he was never known as Jamie, he was James, and media reports since then have called him James.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 21:23:39

good lord - it took the death of a child for you to be vigilant of your own - don't be silly

why do people feel the need to insert themselves into other peoples drama

they where tried, sentenced and that is that - no amount of moral outrage after the fact or FB post will change that

strawberryswing Fri 15-Feb-13 21:29:16

Another one who has deleted people sharing these photos and will carry on doing it.

The whole thing is totally idiotic. There is a huge chance that these men are not RT and JV so all it will achieve is potentially ruining innocent mens lives.

What annoys me even more is that these are the same people who complain that they have been given new identities, when its people like them that are the reason they need new identities in the first place.

Its not up to the public to take the law into their own hands.

zippey Fri 15-Feb-13 21:29:46

I think the fact that the killers were children has to be a mitigating factor. Someone said their daughter is now 10, and knows the difference between right and wrong. Thats great in that instance, but these children grew up in a horrifically abusive situation, so their view of right and wrong was obviously screwed. We are quick to sympathise with children who have been abused, bust sometimes abused children will abuse others, because thats how they they have been taught to behave - children learn from their environment.

Its a sad situation all round. To be honest I would have been happy if the parents of V+T had been punished and the children sent for rehabilitation.

'some people might like the feeling they're able to do something for James Bulger and his mum by lessening the places Jon Venables can hide from how society as a whole feels about him'

I don't feel like that and thankfully neither does much of Society. Venables and Thompson were children who did an almost unbelievably terrible thing. I'm a parent. Their crime makes me despair and the state of those who committed it makes me despair too. If they can put their lives back together and live usefully then that is to the benefit of society. Unfortunately I think there is a small venegeful minority that will never let that happen.

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 21:35:45

'you can't want law then take it into your own hand when it doesn;t give you the result YOU want - like some petulant child'

It's not petulant to think the criminal justice system got it wrong (and I'm not sure whether I think it has or not in this case), and you can't really be saying they get it right every time!

Of course people shouldn't take it into their own hands, but for many, I would say clicking the share button doesn't feel like vigilantism, but rather support for James Bulgers family.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 21:42:41

no - read what you cut and pasted - I don't believe I have ever said it doesn't get things wrong - stop twisting things

it doesn't make it okay to take it into your own hands - also define 'wrong' - your idea of wrong and mine may be very different - hence why we have the law rather than random people deciding the fate of accused people

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 21:44:03

There was a similar release of photographs of the murderers of Peter Connelly when their identity was being protected by the court Northern, I think because some wanted the prison population to know who they were so they could be targeted.

Some do want those who do unspeakable things to little children to feel a physical pain, of course the thought can be overcome by most with the fact that it'd be wrong, but it's still there lurking in lots of people.

I don't think they knew what to do with V and T, they were tried in an adult court weren't they? There were some boys in Doncaster not long ago who did similar things to children and their identity was totally protected, so maybe the lesson has been learned that you can't give the identity out to the public and expect them to forget after a while.

Why were their identities made public in the first place does anyone know? Or was it just because they were on the CCTV pictures and so many people recognised them making it impossible to keep them anonymous?

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 21:44:07

also by clicking share what on earth do you think these people want to happen - James's family get a big hug? no not at all - they want to hound a possibly innocent man - why on earth post his supposed identity

gimmecakeandcandy Fri 15-Feb-13 21:47:47

Defriending is completely over the top. You sound so bloody pious. I would not post that picture but have Facebook friends who have and wouldn't defriend over it. You seem more concerned about two rotten little shits than your mate who is better off now you have defriended!

Emilythornesbff Fri 15-Feb-13 21:49:19

pigletmania I too think about that little boy often. I don't seek out the memory of the news about his murder, it's just there in my memory and often moves me to tears (right now actually).
I Reject, an, indeed, find quite offensive the suggestion that being upset about James Bulger's terrible killing is "grief porn". It's just empathy. I truly wish I didn't think about it. His poor mother. Just awful.

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 21:49:24

I didn't mean to twist what you said, I read it as you can't trust the law to do its job but then complain about what decision it's come to and decide to dole out some justice for yourself.

Some might see clicking the share button as registering their disapproval in what they think of the decisions made by the criminal justice system.

Not sure whether that makes a whole lot more sense grin

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 21:50:55

Agree it's not 'grief porn' either, what they did to the little lad concerns us all.

Or it should.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 21:50:58

<wishes we could defriend on MN>

sorry to the more rational among us if I seem ranty - idiotic raging over a dramatic tragedy that has cock all to do with you is the kind of thing that fair boils my piss!

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 21:53:25

it concerns me Agent from the point of view of wanting to stop more 10 year old children having such shit starts in life that they kill - not from the point of wanting to hound those children into adulthood when they have served their legal sentence

we should LEARN from the case not hoik our collective boobs and scream for blood

TwistedReach Fri 15-Feb-13 21:54:41

There were always three children to cry for in this case.

gimmecakeandcandy Fri 15-Feb-13 21:55:36

What's all this nonsense about grief porn?! I was disgusted and upset at what James Bulgar endured when it happened 20 years ago and I feel the same now. Nothing grief porn about it, I just bloody well care that a little boy was beaten and left for dead by two vile monsters who should have been left to rot in jail.

Does Robert Thompson's wife (he is married with a child isn't he?) KNOW who she is married to?! How could anyone go near him or Jon Venables?

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 21:57:05

agentzigzag I believe their identities were made public by the judge after the case, in the best interests of the public. A serious error in my opinion, and one that certainly wasn't in the public interest at all. Initially they were referred to as boy A and boy B, and it should have remained like that.

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 22:00:31

it concerns me Agent from the point of view of wanting to stop more 10 year old children having such shit starts in life that they kill - not from the point of wanting to hound those children into adulthood when they have served their legal sentence

I completely agree gordys

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 22:01:43

no not grief porn at all - but do mention again how he died - and more other salacious aspects of the case

thousands of children die every week - they are equally worthy of our concern - this case feeds the grubbier aspects of peoples imaginations

gimmecakeandcandy Fri 15-Feb-13 22:04:16

What a load of rubbish Gordy, please retreat back to your utterly pious corner.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 22:05:42

no

I am not pious - the people hounding possibly innocent men are twatish idiots though

Flisspaps Fri 15-Feb-13 22:06:27

Grief porn isn't about feeling empathy. Empathy is normal.

It's about acting as if something that doesn't have anything to to with you does have something to do with you - seeking vengeance, sobbing, saying how awful it's made you feel.

gimmecakeandcandy Fri 15-Feb-13 22:06:36

No twistedteach there was and is only ONE child to cry for. All this bleeding liberal bollocks turns my stomach. I bet if it was your child you wouldn't be saying there were three children to cry for.

Pigsmummy Fri 15-Feb-13 22:06:57

Google it, you get the image within seconds. Report away on FB, it won't make a difference

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 22:07:34

The little lad had to go through all those details, repeating them and the consequences they had isn't grubby gordy.

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 22:09:13

And this does have something to do with everyone fliss, so not grief porn.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:09:14

Yes I do Gordy, I was 13 at the time with no children, but the murder of James Bulger made me realise that when I had my own I will be very careful

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:11:49

Flies not grief porn the brutal murder of a little boy does affect people in general.

Mrcrumpswife Fri 15-Feb-13 22:11:54

*<wishes we could defriend on MN>

sorry to the more rational among us if I seem ranty - idiotic raging over a dramatic tragedy that has cock all to do with you is the kind of thing that fair boils my piss!*

Oh how eloquently puthmm

Idiotic raging over a dramatic tragedy or national outrage at a stupid social experiment by a Government that thought just maybe Love bombing 2 evil little murderers would sort them out so that they could be sneaked back into society after serving absolutely no time in prison.

I think we can safely say it didnt work since JV was arrested and found guilty of owning the most serious images of child porn 2 years ago. Does he deserve anonymity as an adult who committed another crime then the answer is easy NO... Why the fuck should he be protected, no one else is or is he special?

As for using their own abusive childhoods as mitigating factors, its only idiots who read too many psycho babble bullshit books that believe that bollocks. Most victims of childhood abuse spend their lives doing everything in their power to prevent anything bad happening to those around them.

Grief porn, what a disgusting phrase. How dare people care about a child horrifically murdered and torturedconfused

What James Bulgers family have been put through by our very own Justice system is another crime on top of what happened to their little boy.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:12:18

Fliss I meant farm auto correct

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 22:12:49

what do YOU get out of repeating them - THAT is the issue - what purpose does it serve - why do it?

Fliss is spot on - be sad and feel empathy - we all do that

needing to be the MOST upset, the MOST outraged and the MOST effected - whilst repeating the nastier details is in utterly poor taste

Pigsmummy Fri 15-Feb-13 22:12:52

Seriously just google it, it isn't because of Facebook that these pictures are out there. Facebook is a way to share not the origin of the photo.

There hasnt been a denial from anyone regards these photos.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:13:48

Mrscrumple I so agree with you

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 22:15:15

oh and now we have the old 'if you don't want 'justice' (IE violence and rage) you must really love the killers <rolls eyes so hard she see's her brain>

there is no reasoning with irrational people - and it is irrational to be so emotionally involved in something that wasn't your tragedy

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:16:07

Grady what's wrong with being upset and outraged about te brutal torture of a little boy. We are humans with feelings, not emotionless robts hmm

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 22:17:10

"I bet if it was your child you wouldn't be saying there were three children to cry for."

Perhaps not, what Mrs Fergus has said though is that she disagrees with this vigilante style action of naming those suspected of being one of his killers lest another innocent person should lose their life.

Given what she has said on the subject in the past I doubt she feels good about the whole facebook and twitter, everyone's heart bleeds for her obviously, but it's seem strange that those who proclaim to feel her pain the most ignore her wishes.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:17:12

No it's not my tragedy but it's all over t Edina you can hardly miss it unless you live as a hermit

TwistedReach Fri 15-Feb-13 22:17:13

Gimme these were children- seriously disturbed and hurt children. Perhaps you've never seen seriously violent and disturbed abused children? Children who can't even think.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:18:06

Meant the media grrrr I'm going throw this flipping I pad in the bin

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 22:20:29

as I said - no reasoning with irrational people - I don;t think you are even absorbing the opposing view point

I think it's one thing to feel sadness and horror and empathy

it's quiet another to latch on the a families rage and deeper feelings and try to own it

RabidCarrot Fri 15-Feb-13 22:22:04

I think putting these photos up is dangerous, what if they are not of Venables, and Thompson?

Justice was not done for that poor little boy or his family, personally I think these two vermin should have been chucked down a dark hole and left to rot. But in today's society where every one harps on about rehabilitation and human rights these two were given a cosy cell and a new start in life.
They can get married, have Children and do all the things that little boy they killed for fun will never be able to do.
I feel for his family, it must be so hard to wake up with this every day, that someone took your baby and tortured and killed him, and those people are allowed back in to society and protected.
God forbid if someone had done that to my child I would not rest until I had ripped them limb from limb, then I would sit in my prison cell happily.
Vengeance in place of justice as there really is no punishment fit for what they did to that little boy, even animals do not behave in such a manner, and if a dog killed a child it would be put down, shame we could not do that to Venables and Thompson really

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 22:23:27

'needing to be the MOST upset, the MOST outraged and the MOST effected - whilst repeating the nastier details is in utterly poor taste'

It's not the competition you seem to see between people to be most outraged, people are outraged, still, 20 years on.

Good.

I'm glad they're still fucking horrified at what happened, and I'm glad they're still repeating it again and again, all those little heart wrenching details of what his little body had to go though.

He was one of the 'thousands' of children who die each week gordy, if you're suggesting people get off on what he lived through, you can only be looking at the situation at face value. It's people applying it to themselves and how they'd feel about hearing their own three year olds had to go through that when they know they'd just have wanted to be cuddled up with their mum.

Pigsmummy Fri 15-Feb-13 22:23:37

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 22:23:47

bangs head

off to watch my zombies

enjoy your outrage

Pigsmummy Fri 15-Feb-13 22:25:50

Gordy it's not "quiet" but "quite".

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:26:11

No Gordy I don't feel that way at all after all it's not my tragedy, but I feel utter sadness and horror I can't help my feelings, and I feel anger and injustice at those who did it. No I didn't believe vilangetism and have ignored te Facebook photos, I feel they shoud have received a custodial sentence to fit the gravity of th crime. I feel anger at te judicial system

MarianneM Fri 15-Feb-13 22:27:03

*Justice was not done for that poor little boy or his family, personally I think these two vermin should have been chucked down a dark hole and left to rot. But in today's society where every one harps on about rehabilitation and human rights these two were given a cosy cell and a new start in life.
They can get married, have Children and do all the things that little boy they killed for fun will never be able to do.
I feel for his family, it must be so hard to wake up with this every day, that someone took your baby and tortured and killed him, and those people are allowed back in to society and protected.
God forbid if someone had done that to my child I would not rest until I had ripped them limb from limb, then I would sit in my prison cell happily.
Vengeance in place of justice as there really is no punishment fit for what they did to that little boy, even animals do not behave in such a manner, and if a dog killed a child it would be put down, shame we could not do that to Venables and Thompson really*

I'm really depressed at posts like the above.

The boys were children themselves. This revenge mentality which is extended to children is grim.

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 22:28:09

Those 10 year old children were pretty much tried by the general public in an adult court. They had limited understanding of the court process, they came from severely dysfunctional backgrounds, and its very debateable that their motive was murder, although the end result were undoubtedly tragic. This case was tried in this manner to appease the public.

Its interesting to compare a similar case in Norway of two 6 yr old boys murdering a 5 year old girl. Instead of the public baying for the blood of two children, they actually chose to view the children as victims themselves. In fact when questioned, the mother of the girl who was murdered in Norway was very perplexed when asked whether she hated the boys who had killed her daughter. She believed in rehabilitation for those children in order for them to exist in society. The age of criminal responsibility there is far higher, 14 or 15 I believe.

Its a shame that this country does not take a similar attitude, and look at why these things happen and try to rehabilitate, instead of taking the hard line that 10 year old children are monsters and evil. They are the sad product of a very shite background, lacking in emotional contact and a moral upbringing.

You know its possible to feel two things at once. Deep sadness for what happened to James Bulger, and his family, and also feel sadness at the same time for two ten year olds who were let down by their families, and the system.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 22:29:14

oh dear - is that where we are at - correcting spellings? seriously?

I have a MLD and I have a skin condition that sometimes makes typing difficult - but feel free to mention it - I think it means you feel you are loosing the argument and it's a fairly low attack smile

ThatVikRinA22 Fri 15-Feb-13 22:29:27

how do you report? <thicko emoticon> these pics have appeared on my wall shared from an aquaintence - i dont know how to report it though.

MarianneM Fri 15-Feb-13 22:29:33

Chimney - agree with everything you said.

FoxyRevenger Fri 15-Feb-13 22:30:14

In mrcrumpswifes world putting 2 severely neglected and damaged children in prison = love bombing.

Seriously, the lack of humanity in your post...it's really shocking to me.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:32:08

I just find it hard to feel empathy for those boys, noteveryonewho comes from a dysfunctional family murders. The only thing it does is explain their behaviour but should not excuse it! I understand that one of them has possessed child porn, nothing changes then!

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 22:32:38

That's the real issue here Pigsmummy.

Heaven forbid people talking about an emotive and upsetting subject (and I mean those on both sides of the debate here) should slip and use the wrong word when it comes to trying to explain why they feel a certain way.

It's surveillance not "survellience" btw. HTH.

feralgirl Fri 15-Feb-13 22:33:10

I hate the vigilante crap but I do actually have a practical question; I've reported the posts on FB but what do I report them as, it's not like they're spam or hate speech or sexually explicit content is it? I'm not reporting them just because I don't like them, I'm reporting them because primarily I worry that the picture is not Jon Venables and therefore that a completely innocent person will be targeted.

All of this said, the reason that I hate all this vigilante crap is because, if it were my kid who had been murdered, I would want to be the person that hunted down and avenged his death, I wouldn't want a bunch of complete strangers in my business.

AmberLeaf Fri 15-Feb-13 22:33:24

Seriously just google it, it isn't because of Facebook that these pictures are out there. Facebook is a way to share not the origin of the photo

There hasnt been a denial from anyone regards these photos

So tell me which of the 3 different men whos pics are being shared all over facebook today is either of the 2 killers?

Just because you can find the pics on google does NOT mean it is either of them two.

M0naLisa Fri 15-Feb-13 22:35:25

If i am correct this picture went round when Jon Venables was hauled back into custody because of the child photos on his PC. It was then that a story in the paper emerged from the bloke in the pics to say his life has been unbareable. He is not Jon Venables, i think his house got torched (or could have been car)
Im almost positive that this did the rounds a couple of years ago. So not a new thing.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 22:36:27

one man killed himself Mona - ended his life because idiots said he was one of them - that deserves outrage and sympathy

babyfirefly1980 Fri 15-Feb-13 22:38:25

I don't think it's about empathy for them, the main issue I have with the pictures is the total lack of proof.

Very stupid thing to do...just because nobody in authority has denied anything doesn't automatically mean thats because it's them.

M0naLisa Fri 15-Feb-13 22:38:27

It has also popped up on my facebook once.

M0naLisa Fri 15-Feb-13 22:38:54

gordyslovesheep
Bloody hell thats worse sad

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 22:39:41

'it's quiet another to latch on the a families rage and deeper feelings and try to own it '

DD2 is just over 3 YO, and knowing the level she operates on it's horrible to imagine anything like that happening to her because I know how confused and upset she'd be, even without anything physical going on.

After thinking (what I think is quite a rational thought) that, I have got a tiny, miniscule measure of understanding at the horror Denise Fergus feels.

When you see other people who have something (however tenuous it might be) in common with you, suffering, you want to reach out to them, as if to take a part of their pain away. Which is why people send cards and flowers to people they don't even know, so the person knows they're not alone.

Pigsmummy Fri 15-Feb-13 22:40:04

Read Paul Britton. He was the leading psychologist on the case. His foresight is stunning. He published what he was allowed to on this case. Available from Amazon.

namchan Fri 15-Feb-13 22:41:40

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 22:41:56

I'm surprised he was allowed to publish anything on the case. Between the conflict of interest and the profit he will have made from a child murder case, no thanks, I don't think I'll buy that book.

iremembertypewriters Fri 15-Feb-13 22:42:33

My SIL has shared the photos. I commented that she should delete them as they might be of innocent men, then hid it from my timeline.

She'll probably defriend me now <sigh>.

Their crimes were unspeakable. But be thankful we live in a country where it's not acceptable to lynch someone on the street.

ifancyashandy Fri 15-Feb-13 22:45:53

I find it difficult to post on this but... I think one of the reasons I find the horrific murder of James Bulger so emotionally evocative is because it reflects on me / 'us' as a society. I remember so well the physical reaction I had as a 23 year old childless woman. I was devastated - as was the rest of the population.

But I also remember feeling 'responsible' as a society. In the 'how can I be a part of a society that has enabled children so very very damaged?'. And I remember being horrified at people suggesting the death penalty for the per perpetrators.

I'm not sure what I'm achieving by posting this other than I want to be part of a society that gives criminal / murdering children a second chance.

And I get that people will say JV has re-offended (badly, if rumours are to be believed) but 1. What chance did he ever have and 2. I'd rather his cover wasn't blown and the authorities know where he is and who he's with.

Apologies if this rambled.

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 22:46:13

I have read Pail Britton but cant remember what he had to say on this case pigsmummy. I only focussed on it for his thoughts on the Rachel Nickell case. Would you mind summarising what you can remember of it?

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 22:46:30

*paul

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 22:48:18

I've read a book by Paul Britton Pigs, don't know if it's the one you're talking about, it was mostly about Rachel Nickell.

And saying he's making the money off the backs of murdered children is pretty low Cortana.

He's a forensic psychologist, and I'm doing a masters degree in forensic psychology, does that make me cashing in on them too? hmm

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 22:48:43

You haven't rambled ifancyashandy. Makes perfect sense to me.

Mrcrumpswife Fri 15-Feb-13 22:49:21

In mrcrumpswifes world putting 2 severely neglected and damaged children in prison = love bombing

They didnt serve a single day in prison, they were housed in a childrens secure unit. The method of rehabilitation used was a form of love bombing to try and undo the wiring that had caused the emotional damage leading up to the crime they committed. Education and opportunity was going to cure them. It was an experiment that did not work. A bloody expensive one aswell. How many times did the Home office pop in and check on these 2. Is that normal practice?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1256109/Robert-Thompson-Social-worker-looked-James-Bulger-killer-speaks.html

Cant be arsed to provide lazy Mners with more reputable links so find them yourself.

As for JV, he outed himself so not a lot anyone can be found guilty of if they are sharing his picture. He should stop drinking and getting pissed really. It might help the attorney General build a case to protect himhmm

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1297532/Jon-Venables-bragged-killing-James-Bulger-drunken-rant.html

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 22:50:21

You didn't ramble Ifancya, I can see your point. Perhaps this massive reaction and the anger that comes from it is part of a deeper shame? Being part of a society that created and enabled the crime and the feeling of helplessness that followed.

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 22:51:39

Depends Agent, are you planning on selling a book based on your professional role in high profile emotive cases?

chicaguapa Fri 15-Feb-13 22:54:32

I just PM'd a friend to ask him to think about deleting the photo as he didn't know it's definitely them and I didn't want to see it on my feed. He's a good friend and I didn't want to fall out with him about it but I was disappointed that he'd shared it. He's deleted it now and apologised for upsetting me. I'd noticed no-one had commented on it either.

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 22:55:23

Dear me, even the social worked sold her story.

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 22:56:14

You're talking about him as though he's making money from a crime he's committed Cortana.

Are you suggesting people shouldn't read about the realities of some peoples lives? They shouldn't be discussed in books because it's distasteful?

Who would be able to talk about it? Only those directly involved?

theisleofsheppey Fri 15-Feb-13 22:57:24

I still wonder why their parents were not prosecuted

to neglect children to the extent they did that?

But it was interesting to read in the Guardian that many involved in the case felt that the boys killed him because they were too tired and did not know what to do with him?

we will never know, but it upsets us all so lets not get too cross with each other

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 22:57:24

Blooming hell Mrscrumple put JV inan adult rison and te him geton with it. He's an adult and should be responsible for his actions nt mollycoddled

quoteunquote Fri 15-Feb-13 22:58:36

When I look at my sons at that age,(one still is) they were just not capable of even torturing an ant.

I have to think what would it be that I would have to do to turn them into a child that could hurt and kill,

it would take quite a lot, to make a child able to do those things, they would to have experienced things that are totally unimaginable to my children,

if those boys had grown up in my home they wouldn't be able to hurt anything,

and I'm sure if my boys had grown up in their circumstances they would not be the lovely kind gentle people they are,

If you don't like what happened, be very sure that no one is falling through the gaps today, anywhere or we as a society have failed to learn from this, maybe that is one reason people get so angry, they are a reminder that somehow, despite everything we are not a civilised society, in which all children are protected.

Mrcrumpswife Fri 15-Feb-13 23:02:46

Blooming hell Mrscrumple put JV in an adult prison and te him geton with it. He's an adult and should be responsible for his actions nt mollycoddled

I couldnt agree more piglet.

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 23:03:46

Not by professional who were hired to be involved in the case Agent. It raises questions of why the accepted the job and their motives throughout. A social worker selling her story also seems low.

I always though the individuals who had to take up the job of ensuring justice and care for all involved would have had to follow some sort of data protection or privacy guidance.

I mean imagine you had to have social services or police or expert witnesses involved in a case involving your child. Where they would hear graphic details of the crime they committed or they were a victim of. Imagine turning to them at your darkest moment, then finding out the story had been sold.

gimmecakeandcandy Fri 15-Feb-13 23:04:14

Thank goodness for mrscrumpswife, pigletmania and some of the others talking sense. Gordy, yes do go bang your head against a wall, might knock some sense into you.

theisleofsheppey Fri 15-Feb-13 23:05:06

quote

I agree, and it suprises me that we are not having this discussion in the wider media

what society do we have that we allow children to remain in these environments, what created them?

we all know children can be trained to kill, look at sierra leona as one example

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:07:38

Thanks gummy at last someone who agrees with me, thought Mumsnet was full of apologists tonight

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 23:07:49

how nice of you Gimme smile knock some sense into me - thanks smile

I am drowning in irony right now - and red wine - which I am off to drink

sane people - don't spend too much time trying to debate with irrational people - night x

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:09:33

Thought I was a lone voice in the wilderness grin. JV should now be in an adult prison and responble for his behaviour. How long is the government going to keep nannying him

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:10:15

Right Gordy we are rational because we don't agree with you

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:10:31

Meant irrational

YouTheCat Fri 15-Feb-13 23:10:44

Hasn't JV committed crimes against children as an adult? I'm pretty sure he has.

Had he gone on to lead an anonymous life as an adult I'd say fair enough for him to keep his privacy, but he hasn't and so I think his picture should be plastered about so people know who he is and what he is capable of.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 23:12:02

no - you are irrational because you ignore other peoples perfectly salient and rational points and stoop to insulting peoples spelling when you can't think of anything else to say

which is so massively ironic it may kill me grin

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:12:26

Exactly youthecat. He is doing a good job of making himself anonymous

ifancyashandy Fri 15-Feb-13 23:13:12

Thank you Cortana & LittleChimeys.

I don't have children but I have nieces, nephews, godchildren and honor'ies... Every single one of them knows right from wrong. They range from 11 to 30 and I'd say they knew the correct moral code from, what, 5? You've all taught me - via your lovely, humorous, stories that your toddlers will sing like canaries at a 'wrong-doing'.

Which makes the lack of moral code in this horrific crime all the more visible.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:13:54

I have not criticised anyone's spelling, it's mine that's rubbish tonight. I understand your points but cannot agree with some of them

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 23:15:52

It does seem so unfair Cortana, but once a violent crime's been committed, the direct 'actors' kind of become public property.

In a way this is right and understandable, unusual violent events should be turned over repeatedly to thresh them out, not just from an academic understanding POV, but also for how people understand who they are/what they should think.

But from an individual angle, it means the families and friends of the victims have to give up very private and intimate things, it must be crushing.

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 23:19:20

I think you may have confused Pigletmania and Pigsmummy, Gordy.

"I understand your points but cannot agree with some of them" Bloody good on you for saying that Piglet. I have to agree to some extent, as I said earlier Ifancya has shown things for a different side for me, the point about the shame society feels as a result of a crime like this and the resulting emotions it can stir. I understand but not agree.

For me I cannot personally get past that the person most affected (jointly with James' Dad) has asked that pictures and campaigns are not posted and so many continue to do so. I may be joining Gordy in pious corner but if I take anyone's feelings into account it will be hers.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 23:19:44

no that was another Pig -(name!) apologies

I don;t understand the need to high five other posters who share your view like you where on JK - all this aggression (not from you) and undercurrent rage is odd

but that is what I expect from people who read real life crime books and paw over the gory details of cases like this - not you personally, just generally

I have studied crime and criminal behaviour but I have never felt the need to read titillating true crime stuff

YouTheCat Fri 15-Feb-13 23:20:25

Jamie Bulger's dad has brought a book out recently. I'd say he's putting himself into the public eye really. Silly man.

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 23:21:33

anyway I am OFF TO BED

I have to be pool side at 9am with my eldest ! bloody swimming lessons - on Sat morning - early - WHO does that?

wannaBe Fri 15-Feb-13 23:21:43

I just find it disturbing that people who claim that ten year old children should have been left to wrot/put to death/given the most severe punishments imagineable claim to actually understand the meaning of the term empathy. Really - you have no idea.

Empathy is comprehending that children, yes, two ten year old children, had something so horrifically amiss in their lives that they committed one of the most horrific crimes imagineable. Yes, most victims of childhood abuse do what they can to prevent this happening to other children - but they do this - once they become adults and actually comprehend the horror of what they have been through while they were, you know, children. What they did doesn't become less horrific because they were children. The fact that they did it while they were still children is what makes it more horrific.

Empathy is not reliving the horrific details of a brutal crime over and over so that you can sob in the virtual or real world while wringing your hands and calling for justice for a child and family you knew only from their pictures in the media and now on social media. Do you relive all the other brutal child killings over the past twenty years in the same way? no? didn't think so.

It's mock grief for a child people had no connection with but somehow feel they have the right to claim as their own.

It's no different to people who grieve for dead celebrities and place flowers at the scene of car crashes. People want to be seen to care.

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 23:24:56

Agree Agent, it's easy to remember that every detail shared about the criminal is in a way a betrayal of the victim's confidence. I agree with what you said about "public property" too, it's sad and wrong.

I could understand writing for text books, but why someone without the need for this type of information would read a book like that is beyond me, I was shocked to have the booked recommended on this thread tbh, what would I gain. If I wanted to do something for the victims of child abuse I could donate to a charity that supports those causes. I don't see how a lay person like me could benefit the victim, or anyone infact, by reading such graphic details of their life published by someone who was meant to help.

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 23:25:12

Silly for having something to say and finding the courage to say it YouTheCat?

Perhaps you should have a read before calling him that?

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:25:54

[gordy] the pigs are out today lol

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:26:25

Meant grin oh I need bed too

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 23:27:15

But it was interesting to read in the Guardian that many involved in the case felt that the boys killed him because they were too tired and did not know what to do with him?

I think there was an element of RT not wanting to take him home or take him to get help because of the blood. The family didn't have much money to replace clothes and RT was afraid he would get a bollocking if he got blood on his clothes. Childs warped/sad logic.

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:27:20

I don't read any crime books, the last one was Patrick swayze autobiography

shesariver Fri 15-Feb-13 23:28:26

I work with adults who have been abused and neglected as children, and in my 7 years in the job have never came across any who have killed, least of all killed a child in the horrific manner these 2 boys did. As it happens I dont agree with the FB pictures as obviously they could be of anyone and not RT and JV. But it sickens me the people that pop up on threads like this going on about them as victims just because they were children with a difficult childhood. Yes the world is not rosy for a lot of children sadly but this doesnt make them all go out and torture and murder a toddler.

Cortana Fri 15-Feb-13 23:29:56

Really YouTheCat? James' rather was one of the victims in this case. Whatever his motives were are his own, if it helps him and he has the support of Mrs Fergus, it helps him and it's none of our business.

(not meaning to be contrary, but I do feel there is a difference between a social worker selling her story and a victim deciding to write a book on their experience)

YouTheCat Fri 15-Feb-13 23:30:49

I think the book isn't raising any awareness of anything. It is just making money. I don't think it is necessary or in good taste.

theisleofsheppey Fri 15-Feb-13 23:30:58

I dont see them as victims, really I dont

but its such a horrific incident I suppose i want us to learn from it IYSWIM, see if there are others

we know who the victim was, unfortunately

and maybe evil shit happens, and we cant prevent it

YouTheCat Fri 15-Feb-13 23:31:36

Yes, but how does James's mother feel about this? Should her feelings not be considered?

theisleofsheppey Fri 15-Feb-13 23:31:47

that was to sheshriver

gordyslovesheep Fri 15-Feb-13 23:31:51

oh ffs I am turning this off now

I worked on a project for abused children - who where abusing - these where 8,9,10 year olds

just because you haven't come across it doesn't mean it doesn't happen

BED NOW Piglet grin x

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 23:32:25

What do you do shesariver? Because whatever it is, it obviously has little depth.

DizzyZebra Fri 15-Feb-13 23:34:03

It's wrong IMO and ANYONE sharing these should be tracked down and arrested.

They are NOT confirmed and are most likely some poor innocent, who will suffer for these sick rumours, along with anyone who looks like the bloke in the picture.

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 23:34:52

But wannabe, to feel compassion for T and V, you have to put what they did to one side, you have to. To see them as children who've lived with damaging experiences that provoked them to do such a thing, you have to put the childhood they lived on par with the things they did, to be as equally important as an answer to the 'why' of what happened.

But most people can only put it aside for a small amount of time before it inevitably comes back to the fact that they did such terrible things, and to what James Bulger had to live with.

It's a difficult thing to overcome.

In a lot of peoples minds, I suspect their childhoods so far and what they did are not equal causes. That might be right, it might be wrong, I don't know, but it's why people relive their reaction to it. Grief isn't a cut and dried thing, feeling pain for someone you don't know is equally as valid as something which directly involves you.

shesariver Fri 15-Feb-13 23:35:09

just because you haven't come across it doesn't mean it doesn't happen

I never said it did. confused
Just that the majority of people with shitty childhoods end up more a danger to themselves rather than other people because of their damaged emotions thats all.

shesariver Fri 15-Feb-13 23:35:50

LittleChimneyDroppings why do you say that?

pigletmania Fri 15-Feb-13 23:35:53

Yes Gordy grin I shoud ts 11.30 but watching junior doctors

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 23:37:44

Why shouldn't it be understood by the mainstream Cortana?

Without any understanding of why this kind of thing happens, people wouldn't give a monkeys.

Why would they care whether another child has been murdered by other children?

AgentZigzag Fri 15-Feb-13 23:43:57

'I think the book isn't raising any awareness of anything. It is just making money. I don't think it is necessary or in good taste.'

You don't think the book by Sara Payne (Sarah Paynes mum) wasn't raising awareness? And think the one by Kevin Wells (Holly Wells Dad) was in bad taste?

Were they just out to make money from their dead children too?

LittleChimneyDroppings Fri 15-Feb-13 23:44:52

But it sickens me the people that pop up on threads like this going on about them as victims just because they were children with a difficult childhood

because every case is different and the circumstances which drive people (children in this case) to react as they do are very different too. It surprises me, if you work in this field, that you dont know that. What do you do?

(I can't do links but it won't take you long to search if you see fit)

When JV and RT were first identified in the press they used their school photographs. And those images were somehow the worst pictures they could find. (JV looks sneery and leering, RT looks smug )
Compare to the two pictures taken in Police Custody where they are holding the dated boards.

Then everytime they were pictured in the Press the papers re-used the photos to re-ignite the public hatred (not that it ever went away).

I have no interest in seeing their adult images or finding out where they are/what they are doing.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for what they did but I do for their background. Both were bullied and neglected so I can appreciate that a bullied child will pick someone smaller and weaker to bully themselves.
It doesn't make it right but it goes a small way to understanding why they did it (though in no way justifies it)

shesariver Fri 15-Feb-13 23:54:41

I have already said what I do chimneys.

You make a lot of assumptions, for example where have I said every case is not different? Im just very tired of people making excuses for all sorts of bad behaviour just because it is a child with a bad childhood who has perpetrated it. My DS was continually assaulted by one such 10 year old and I have personal experience of this attitude. Thankfully my DS didnt die unlike James Bulger.

LittleChimneyDroppings Sat 16-Feb-13 00:05:06

Ok shesariver. I'm sorry to hear about your ds. I hope he's ok now.

You use very emotive language however, and I dont think you're seeing the bigger picture. Its unlikely from what you say that you work in this field in any meaningful manner.

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 00:12:04

'Its unlikely from what you say that you work in this field in any meaningful manner.'

Ouch LittleC.

You don't know what shesariver does or what she knows.

shesariver Sat 16-Feb-13 00:12:18

Hes fine thanks, but not before we had to move home to get away from the boy concerned. Its a very patronising thing to say though what follows chimneys, I would take offence if I didnt know how good at my job I actually am and how much satisfaction I get from helping people manage their emotions, relationships and ultimately their lives better. I dont think any of them would find my work not meaningful really. As I said I work with adults. And as it happens I know a fair amount about personality disorders, including psychopathy. But then again people don't think children can be psychopaths.....

LittleChimneyDroppings Sat 16-Feb-13 00:24:34

Sure. I appreciate what you and zigzag are saying. So I will apologise.
But, what you said is still there:

But it sickens me the people that pop up on threads like this going on about them as victims just because they were children with a difficult childhood

I hate what you are saying, I dont agree with you, but I shouldn't have been rude.

theisleofsheppey Sat 16-Feb-13 00:26:52

sheascriver, I am sorry. for your ds being bullied, not good...

and agent zig that was a lovely post

shesariver Sat 16-Feb-13 00:34:30

Ok fair enough. And it does sicken me saying they are victims, sorry if you dont agree. Far too often the real victims get somehow minimised and the empathy and understanding is all on the bullies, in this case killers. Its like "oh of course I have sympathy for James and his family BUT......" I am not saying this is you obviously. Society generally has a real problem with children who commit serious crimes. And if RT and JV have endured what some of the patients I have treated have had to then of course its not "right" but they still had choices and no right to take another childs life. 10 is the criminal age of responsibility (in fact I think its even 8 in Scotland).

shesariver Sat 16-Feb-13 00:40:52

Thank you isle. And yes maybe it has affected how I think (naturally) but when you have had your child tormented, bullied and beaten the way my DS was by a fellow 10 year old, and for this perpetrator to think it was all a game....well of course it did. He had no fear of consequences and is one of the most convincing liars I have ever met in my life.

TheBigJessie Sat 16-Feb-13 00:45:44

My children are nearly the same age as James. It's very easy to boil with hatred for James' killers.

But... In seven years, they will be nearly the same age as his killers... I had a bit of an abusive childhood myself. I'm not really sure I can get behind any argument that it reliably makes one a better person. Perhaps more importantly, I remember some of my peers at ten. How vicious some were to smaller or weaker children. With the hindsight of adulthood, I think now that they were themselves being abused.

And I think that maybe some of this energy spent on righteous keyboard-sharing on FB could be better spent. I'm not a psychologist. I don't know whether Venables is beyond redemption. But I'm damn sure he wasn't born destined for the life he's led. I'm also damn sure that whatever life he led as a child is being replicated somewhere by another child. Even on our sceptred isle. Again.

<Piously donates to the NSPCC and childline>

I googled the Scottish Age of Responsibility.
It was 8 but now 12 yo ( also checked the NSPCC Site)

shesariver Sat 16-Feb-13 00:50:41

Thanks 70, wasn't making 8 up then! Probably why our local council couldnt serve an ASBO on my DSs bully then until he was 12.

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 00:52:43

'But I'm damn sure he wasn't born destined for the life he's led.'

I'm not sure whether I subscribe to it or not (probably not), but what do you think about the idea that adults should take responsibility for their actions when they're adults, and what happened in the past isn't a reason/excuse for behaving in an inappropriate way? (as it all comes down to 'can you help who you are', can you blame someone for behaving as they do?)

LittleChimneyDroppings Sat 16-Feb-13 01:02:29

Well, I think that when you get to adulthood you have to start taking responsibility. Otherwise the whole thing just continues. But in young adulthood you may not have the tools to do that. Where does it end.

Damn, I have to go to bed, football first thing. If the debate is continuing tomorrow night then I will be back. Night all. (sorry again to sheisariver, just to make sure I have cleared up any bad feeling).

theisleofsheppey Sat 16-Feb-13 01:02:59

TheBigJessie

the girl that viciously bullied me at school was in a home, her mum had sent her there (she said) and was with her stepdad and other kids

i still cant forgive her for making ages 10 to 13 such a misery

but now i am older, i understand it better

ihearsounds Sat 16-Feb-13 01:10:30

The pics have unfortunately just started appearing on my feed. Some of the comments along with the pictures are disgusting. Talks of torturing them when they were kids, you know because that would have been ok. Talks of what people would do to the men in these pics now, we don't even know if it is them, and even then torturing isn't right.

Then there's other comments of, well I was abused as a child and I didn't do anything. People who had shitty childhoods do everything they can to protect those around them. What people who make these comments forget, or fail to realise is that the people who do everything to protect have somehow gotten through the childhood, and into adulthood with support to help them make the right decisions.. For those that didn't they are now in the prison system, currently walking the street looking for their next client/fix, deceased, or somewhere still being abused/abusing.

I am not condoning what they did. Nor am I going to jump on the eye for an eye band wagon. I do not, and neither do any of you, or any of those on fb, know the boys mental frame of mind at the time. But from what I have read about their home life, it surely cannot have been in a good way. The things they did to James, they must have learned that from somewhere. It sickens us as adults to know what they did, but we have the capacity to deal with that, do children have this same capacity to be sickened by things they are exposed to on a regular basis, when they have nothing to compare with? Children can only know right from wrong from being shown this.

LittleChimneyDroppings Sat 16-Feb-13 01:14:55

Very good post ihearsounds

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 01:20:45

If you do something as a child ihear, it's possible to recall that event and have a different spin on it because you're understanding things in an adult way and have adult experiences.

T and V might not have known the severity of what they did at the time they did it, but it would be reasonable to expect them to reflect on those actions as adults, and fully understand why it was so wrong.

But because they're showing that maybe the disturbance of their early life hasn't been overcome (and them being in wider society hasn't proved incident free), that part of the child who did such terrible things is still there.

They've been shown right from wrong, but haven't learnt the lesson.

TheBigJessie Sat 16-Feb-13 01:32:12

AgentZigZag

Simple. For me. Free will is variable. At one end of the scale, some people have the closest thing mathematically possible to free will. At the other end, there are people who categorically do not. These people, if they pose risks to others, go to what are legally termed in the Acts concerning them "special hospitals". Basically Broadmoor. Prison sentences are meant to act as a deterrent and rehabilitation, and thus are directed at people who have free will. There's a murky lot of slightly broken humans in the middle. That is why we need a judicial system that serves justice, taking into account mitigating factors and aggravating factors, and finding the best fit for that individual and society's safety.

Does it always work like this? Probably not. But it should.

Due to the wonders of chaos theory, luck, and generational dilution of abuse, I ended being someone who ended up reacting strongly against suffering in others. It does not always work this way. Otherwise my mother would never have repeated her abuse in any fashion when she became a parent.

what are legally termed "facilities for the mentally illl^Then there's other comments of, well I was abused as a child and I didn't do anything. People who had shitty childhoods do everything they can to protect those around them. What people who make these comments forget, or fail to realise is that the people who do everything to protect have somehow gotten through the childhood, and into adulthood with support to help them make the right decisions.. For those that didn't they are now in the prison system, currently walking the street looking for their next client/fix, deceased, or somewhere still being abused/abusing.

This. This exactly.

TheBigJessie Sat 16-Feb-13 02:04:45

People are supposed to be capable of taking responsibility for their actions eventually. Different nations put the magic age at different quantities of days. (Meanwhile, scientists research myelination of the brain, trying to identify The Age. Last I checked, there was focus on the big 25.)

But really, the standards of nations on Legal Responsibility are simple start-points. They do not account for mental illness, psychological disorders, etc. They are not meant to, in the modern West. A great deal of time has been spent in the last century, filling in these gaps.

As I said before, I am not V or T's psychologist. I would not like to be. Whether either needs to be confined for life is not a matter I should decide; I am not fit for it, whether on grounds of qualifications or grounds of being over-liberal grin.

Emilythornesbff Sat 16-Feb-13 08:39:23

Posting these photos is probably not a good thing for lots of reasons already mentioned.
But I'm among the (apparently small number of) people who believe they should probably not have been released. The risk was always too high(as has been subsequent,y demonstrated).
Their difficult childhoods may have gone some way to explain their actions but not to excuse them.
Does anyone believe that high security institutions are populated with violent offenders who had idyllic childhoods?

bottleofbeer Sat 16-Feb-13 10:11:45

As a civilised society we had no choice but to try and rehabilitate children. 8 years of your life when you're ten is a massive sentence.

Does anybody really want to live in a society that would have legally mudered two children? or one that would have thrown away the key. It's dubious that they were even tried as adults. They were horribly abused kids, the kind of abuse we'd all gasp in horror at but because they went on to become a product of that upbringing the stuff that went before is suddenly and completely negated. We don't give a shit now, I'm glad they had such horrible lives, what with them being born evil scum.

We should have learned from it, found out WHY such a horrible, horrible crime was committed by children in the first place. Yes we can all say how our ten year olds would never do that, well than god for that eh? if it had happened a year earlier they'd never have been tried. They both had cognitive and emotional delays, pretty important factors for consideration you might think considering they "were of the legal age of criminal responsibility". I also ask you to look at your ten year olds, how young they actually are and imagine them being so hated in 20 years time for something they did at this age, so hated that people want them dead.

Age is a mitigating factor in crime, this has always been an aggravating one.

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, I don't ever play down their crime. It was sickening and disgusting. But have you ever heard the name Jade Matthews? No? she was a little girl murdered on the very same stretch of tracks a couple of years later by a 15 year old. Surely the 15 year old is even more culpable than a pair of ten year olds but 15 wasn't as shocking as ten so it barely reached public consciousness outside of Liverpool.

This whole attitude of kill the bastards is just so ridiculous and ironic and you can guarantee it's spouted by parents assuming they're empathising with James' family. James' family and friends have the right to be this angry, we don't. It's why jury members cannot have any connection to any part of the case they sit on. Objectivity completely goes out of the window with this case like no other I've ever heard of. Including those of adults with all their mental faculties who murdered children.

Flame away.

bottleofbeer - I agree with everything you say. But we are where we are - what would you do with them now?

bottleofbeer Sat 16-Feb-13 10:43:14

JV has committed a crime as an adult, he rightly went to prison.

RT, if he's living a decent life, leave him be.

I think we did the only thing we could (we: the system). I honestly can't see anything else that could have been done.

Yes, you are right. Meanwhile on FB, the photo has 20,000+ shares. Very depressing.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 10:55:47

I disagree bottle they should have been incarcerated fr a lot longer to fit the gravity of the crime. No I don't agree with killing them,but a much longer custodial sentence would have been much better. Yes they are children but they murdered and defiled a little boy and tat is a very serious and heinous crime

bottleofbeer Sat 16-Feb-13 10:55:57

Have you read the knuckle headed comments on the photos?

Same kind of people who attacked a paediatrician because they didn't know the difference between that and a paedophile. That's the kind of person this shit attracts.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 10:59:12

I totally agree with that bottle some very stupid and gnorant people about. Those pictures may or may not e those boys but tey are being circulated at a rate of knots and f ty are not them, have the potential touring t lives of innocent men

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 11:00:06

Meant ruining

Yes piglet, maybe they shouldn't have been released, but the point is they were....so what now?

LittleChimneyDroppings Sat 16-Feb-13 11:07:10

A comparison of the Norway and Bulger case. Maybe Britain could learn from some of this, they certainly seem more at peace with their outcome. Here, the hatred just continues.

here

and here

Bottle what a great post.

VitoCorleone Sat 16-Feb-13 12:21:59

Its very wrong, some innocent man could have his life ruined for this, besides isnt Venables still in jail?

I have to say though, at 10 years old, abused or not they KNEW that what they where doing was wrong, it was claimed that they both suffered Post Traumatuc Stress Disorder after the murders, Venables was alleged to have suffered with nightmares about what he'd done. They knew it was wrong, they knew what they where doing to that poor little boy and the 'sentance' they recieved was a joke.

They should have been taken out of the secure units at 18 and put in jail, and served a proper life sentance for their crime.

VitoCorleone Sat 16-Feb-13 12:22:25

After the murder - not murders.

piprabbit Sat 16-Feb-13 12:38:43

1. I do not see what good is done, sharing these picture. Sharing them damages society, justice and the individuals who may be affected if the information is acted on (either because they are stupid enough to try and be vigilantes or because they are wrongly attacked because they look a bit like one of the men in the pictures).

2. I do not want to look at pictures of these children (or men) every time I log on to FB. I do not need reminding, my memory is long and my imagination is strong. I do not need reminding.

So I will block, delete and defriend.

bottleofbeer Sat 16-Feb-13 13:05:54

Yeah they knew it was wrong, but on what level did they know?

They were emotionally and cognitively stunted.

Do people really see them as culpable as an adult who does the same thing?

Child murderers are integrated back into society when their sentence is finished, does society bay for their blood in the way it bays for JT & RT's? Does it hell.

VitoCorleone Sat 16-Feb-13 13:54:00

Yes society does bay for blood of other child killers. Do you think people would turn a blind eye to Ian Huntley?

One child killer was murdered in prison recently, there was a thread about it just yesterday

People are never going to put down the pitchforks when it comes to murdering innocent, defencless children, and quite rightly IMO

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 13:58:07

No Vito people most certainly will not turn a blind eye to Huntley. It's not because these boys were children, ts because they killed a child in the most horrific way, nobody hold have to ndur what that littl boy went through. The same sentiment would be true if they were 10 year older

gordyslovesheep Sat 16-Feb-13 14:00:26

this is what pitchforks do

thegreylady Sat 16-Feb-13 14:13:37

What has bothered me is that I have seen two different sets of two photographs.They cant both be accurate! I have 'hidden' the pictures and ignored the posts I wont 'defriend' over it though.

thegreylady Sat 16-Feb-13 14:23:06

In the Norwegian case the killers were only 6.Had Venables and Thompson been 6 they would not have been tried in the same way and I think their identities would have been kept secret.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 16-Feb-13 15:42:02

The wouldn't have been tried in Norway at the age they were.

ophelia275 Sat 16-Feb-13 15:59:34

I wonder how much money has been spent protecting and changing the identities of these two men? According to some sources, well over a million. I wonder if James Bulger's family received anything like this amount in assistance (doubt it). Perhaps it would have been cheaper to keep them in prison for life (actual life rather than 25 years or whatever life means these days). They would have their freedom taken away from them in the same way that they took the freedom away from James. Then they can pay for their crime without being a danger to the public and a punishment that is as close to equalling the taking of a life as is possible.

somewherewest Sat 16-Feb-13 16:06:58

In the Norwegian case the killers were only 6.

The two cases don't look at all comparable. In addition to the age difference, there is also the premeditated nature of the Bolger killing. Thompson and Venables set out to abduct a child (they had already tried and failed to snatch another boy that day). I'm normally fairly 'Guardian reader' on justice issues and agree that they should have been given new identities and a second chance at life, but I do think they are entirely culpable for their horrific actions. In some quarters they're spoken of almost as if they were victims.

somewherewest Sat 16-Feb-13 16:09:17

I should add that the Guardian coverage of this case generally makes me bang my head against the wall. A few days ago the paper ran an article entirely based on the assumption that Thompson and Venables were victimised by being tried (no mention of the details of their abduction, torture and murder of a little boy), whereas I think they were treated bloody well.

LittleChimneyDroppings Sat 16-Feb-13 16:20:04

It wouldn't have been cheaper to keep them in prison.

Why would James Bulgers family need that amount of money in assistance??

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 16:24:42

I totally agree with you somewhere west. The real victim is james whos life was cut tragically short, who will obviously never do the things these boys are able to do. It was premeditated as somewherewest has pointed out, they knew whtey were doing, they should have served a much longer custodial sentence, so that they do not have te freedoms and life that ordinary people have. Looks like JV has not been punished properly, he is still committing crimes and bragging about being involved, hardly remorseful!

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 16:26:14

Was James Bulgers family paid any money in terms of being the victim of crime

Tortington Sat 16-Feb-13 16:29:19

i've de-friended someone over this - it was the final straw in what i was seeing was at the least a xenophobic attitude leaning slightly to the right of Sun reader IYKWIM

and i rarely do that - i mean, im freinds with hundreds of mumsnetters ive never met in my life - im not very picky when it come to fb friends tbh!

StrawberryGateaux Sat 16-Feb-13 16:32:44

It's James, that was a victim and his poor family. Least we remember that.
I think those boys had it easy.

They should never have been released, ever!
What's worrying is that they can & probably have established relationships with women & for all we knew had kids shock, very worrying indeed.

Ive just reported the pictures!

WireCatWhore Sat 16-Feb-13 16:57:46

I'm going to delete the people who keep posting these picture. Bloody idiots.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 16-Feb-13 17:05:21

Strawberry,

With the one who has not gone on to reoffend and is living in line with the conditions of his release why would it matter if he formed a relationship and had a child?

Do you seriously believe he is not subject to scrutiny and management from relevant agencies?

StrawberryGateaux Sat 16-Feb-13 18:09:19

Of course it would matter, the woman wouldn't know who she has married and he would have access to that child.

I don't agree the with the photos being circulated, as pointed out by a pp, it is likely that is a picture of an innocent member of public and their life could be at risk.

But as for believing they have been punished, no they haven't.
They gave up any rights to a life the day they tortured James to death.
Both of them should have never been released, a 10yr old knows right from wrong and to do what they did us purely evil & premeditated.

I don't care if i get accused of pitchforking, if anyone ever read the full story of what James, a small 2yo went through, i'm sure you will agree that release should never have been an option.

edam Sat 16-Feb-13 18:25:08

I hate people sharing these pictures. Very possibly an entirely innocent man and even if not, there are extremely good reasons for not revealing Venables' identity to all and sundry.

What they did was unspeakably horrific but they were the victims of appalling abuse themselves - if they'd come from decent homes, I doubt they would have been capable of carrying out the same monstrous acts of cruelty. Their acts were evil but the criminal justice system was very wrong to try them as adults in an adult court. They were 10, and very damaged 10 year olds at that.

However, I am dubious about them being let out. I know the courts claimed being transferred to adult prisons would harm their rehabilitation but clearly Venables has not reformed and is not capable of coping with life outside prison. God only knows about the other one.

FlouncingMintyy Sat 16-Feb-13 18:31:38

Completely agree with bottleofbeer.

Delete anyone who shares these photos on facebook - they clearly have sub-slug intelligence.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 16-Feb-13 18:34:50

Have you read the full story? The case notes all the MAPPA notes, are you aware of the conditions of the changed identity or any cp plans that would be in place for any children born.

Are you aware that the people who have and still need to know who they are, do know.

I love the mis information people have on here, gossiping a pile of shit.

T and V are on licence and will be for the rest of their lives, like any other murders, any serious relationship they enter into the partner will be informed and will be told the consequences of having a relationship with them, say if they have children etc. They cannot rock up anywhere for a job and they cannot live anywhere they chose.

They were children, children with terrible lives, it is not black and white, you do not have to be horrified by what happened and want them to hounded by moronic vigilantes or think they should rot in prison, the majority of people were horrified by what they did but believe in rehibilitation and feel that society let them down, something that we should never allow to happen again.

Mintyy `sub-slug intelligence` grin yy too true.

somewherewest Sat 16-Feb-13 19:48:47

Sadly many children have horrible childhoods (mine was fairly grim and included witnessing serious violence). The vast vast majority do not do with those two did. I agree that their backgrounds should've been taken into account as to some degree a mitigating factor, but both made a series of very calculated and evil choices in what they did to a tiny defenceless child. My heart isn't exactly bleeding.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 19:53:05

Exactly somewherewest, that explains why they did it, it does not provide an excuse for it

StrawberryGateaux Sat 16-Feb-13 20:16:50

Exactly somewherewest, my heart doesn't bleed either!

StrawberryGateaux Sat 16-Feb-13 20:18:33

And oh wow they are on liscence, whoopie-do, it's the very least they deserve tbh.
Being a damanged child is no excuse for such barbaric, disturbing behaviour.

rodandtheemu Sat 16-Feb-13 20:19:39

YARBU I have actually seen two sets of pics so his them, hope that some poor soul dosnt get attacked over it.
I agree with summer somewhere and piglet
At ten you know that toruring a toddler to death is wrong. They shouldnt have been let out, rehabilitation dosnt work for every one and as proven some slip under the net. The authorities didnt keep such a good eye on Venables did they?

I dont think the majority of society feel that V and T had been let down and believe that they are capable of rehabilitation at all and im not moronic or a vigilante, just a mother of two, who feels that they should not be allowed back in to socity after their heinous act.

I find it hard to believe that some people actually see these men as poor hounded children and should be allowed there human right to try and live a normal life? ........Thats what up with this country. God help all those bleeding hearts that nothing this monsterous ever happens to a loved one of theirs and see how they would feel about it then.

Fairylea Sat 16-Feb-13 20:39:57

I agree with you rodandtheemu.

They should never ever have been let out.

They had difficult childhoods but no worse than a lot of people. People who do not go on to commit any crimes, yet alone something like that.

At 10 years old they did not only have their family to look to for their moral compass, they had also had 5 years of school and socialising. They knew what they did was wrong.

I also agree if people knew the full story of what happened to James bulger they would agree they should never have been let out.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 20:43:50

I know it's shocking fairylea his last moments filled with fear and wanting his mummy sad. My heart bleeds for that little boy and his family not two boys who knew what they were doing, and committed a premeditated crime

Fairylea Sat 16-Feb-13 20:47:03

Absolutely piglet.

I won't post the details here but they left the judge and jury in no doubt whatsoever that both boys were cunning and wicked.

I makes me really angry that people keep going on about their difficult and abusive childhoods or the fact they were children themselves. Neither excuse or explain such absolutely vile horrific behaviour.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 20:47:08

They set out to abduct a child that day and they did just that. When I was 7 some bully girls I bumped into the local swimming pool. They were about 11, they held me under the water and tred to sit on me, a lifeguard saw and intervened. Yes children if that age generally are aware if their actions

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 20:48:46

These girls I knew them, came from good homes and families

TwistedReach Sat 16-Feb-13 20:57:02

Those of you who are saying, 'they knew what they did was wrong'- what then do you think made them do this? What do you think makes somebody do something like this? Because I imagine like me, this would be an unimaginable thing for you to do or have done, so what do you think happens?

Fairylea Sat 16-Feb-13 20:59:39

Personally I think some people are just born with an evil streak that slowly reveals itself. A bit like I believe paedophiles cannot be treated or cured, they are what they are.

Harsh but that's what I believe.

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 20:59:59

Wouldn't that say children don't necessarily have to be neglected to do nasty things piglet?

V and T together were said to be more than the sum of their parts and wouldn't have done it if they were on their own, that could explain what made the difference and they were able to cross the line.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 16-Feb-13 21:00:30

There may very well be people on this thread who do know the details of both the crime and the boys time in prison as well as the details regarding the release,and subsequent related info since the boys turned into men, who agree with the steps that were taken.

But of course they would be prohibited by law from saying so.

Fairylea Sat 16-Feb-13 21:04:08

Yes sock.

That may very well be true.

TwistedReach Sat 16-Feb-13 21:11:29

Thank you for your response fairylea but imagine then if you had been born 'with an evil streak' would that be your fault? I personally can't imagine anything worse than being born with this.

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 21:22:34

If they were born with something that made it more likely to do what they did Twisted, it wouldn't be their fault, but if it was how they were brought up it's not really their fault either. Or could be a bit of both of course.

It does make it difficult to work out whether they were responsible, and still are, for how they act.

Could say that nobody's fully responsible though. Which would be bollocks, I think, possibly.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Sat 16-Feb-13 21:25:50

T and V are on licence and will be for the rest of their lives, like any other murders, any serious relationship they enter into the partner will be informed and will be told the consequences of having a relationship with them, say if they have children etc. They cannot rock up anywhere for a job and they cannot live anywhere they chose.

Good.

I hope they never live a normal life and are never ever happy. I hope nobody ever loves them and what they did at 10 has completely screwed up their lives. I hope they die very very lonely.

I don't wish them a happy life at all and I hope it is full of misery, in prison or not.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 21:31:21

No agent chikdren from all backgrounds can Horrid things

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 21:33:07

They might have been brn like that, but their circumstances did not help. As I said previously it provides an explanation for their behaviour

TwistedReach Sat 16-Feb-13 21:34:12

But piglet, why? Why do they do them?

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 21:36:08

Sorry twisted could you re phrase that my understanding is not good tonight

rodandtheemu Sat 16-Feb-13 21:42:23

agent are you actually relinquishing them from the responsibility of murdering that baby? I'm not sure ive read that right.

Its not difficult to work out if they were responsible - a jury did that after hearing the evidence.

People do abhorrent things for absolultly no sane reason. Just because there was no logic to it, dosnt mean it was'nt their fault. No one forced there hand. Of course it was there fault.

It is what it is, they murdered a baby.

TwistedReach Sat 16-Feb-13 21:44:19

I think we xposted but I was really just wondering what you think really causes children (or anyone actually) to do things like this. Because if they are born that way, or indeed if they are so traumatised by their environment that they become that way then really how on earth would then 'punishing' them further help?
I really can't imagine anything worse than something having gone so wrong in my personality that I could do something like this (let alone at 10). And that makes me think that this is a tragedy for all the children involved. I wondered how you could work this out in a different way?

shesariver Sat 16-Feb-13 21:56:39

I was really just wondering what you think really causes children (or anyone actually) to do things like this

Thats a question I don't think anyone has the answer for. Its the old "nature versus nurture" argument. Personally I think it can be a mixture of both. Some people have real difficulty thinking that any person can be born "bad", but I agree with rod that some things people do there are no reasons, no explanations and people seek explanations for explaining these inexplicable events.

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 22:01:35

I'm not sure what, if any, concessions were made to them for being children in court rodand, but in effect, didn't the jury find that if they were adults (because they were tried as adults) they would be guilty?

They were responsible at one level because they did it, but you can't ignore what made them do it.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 22:06:36

I dont know twisted, i am sure it was deep in their psyche and was brought out by their circumstances, and that they each influenced by each other rather like Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, apparently Myra would not have murdered if she did not come in contact with Ian Brady. Those boys would probably not have murdered on their own, but together formed a leathal duo

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 22:10:03

If you look at bullies they usually act as a group, on their own they probably would not bully

TwistedReach Sat 16-Feb-13 22:12:18

But then if genetics and environment came together to cause this, how on earth does further punishment or torture help?

rodandtheemu Sat 16-Feb-13 22:12:55

Adolesents are just as capable as adults to know whats wrong and right about murder or what they have done is wrong. As with adults, children can be cold, chronically agressive and unfeeling. Narcissistic qualitys can be present in even young children and feelings of rejection and being un loved can lead to violence,and then there are the genuinly disturbed children through no fault of there own.

Even so these children/adolesents/adults should not be allowed back in to socitey when they have demostrated these behavours.

It shouldnt be seen as long term 'punishment' it should be seen as protecting the vunerable, our babies/children/us/elderly from these people.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 22:20:21

Well twisted, why do criminals get punished? because justice has to be done, they have to have consequences to their actions via the judicial system.

rodandtheemu Sat 16-Feb-13 22:22:00

twisted I'm not sure I 'care' if these two 'boys' got help as you keep advocating it. They surrendered any rights to being 'helped' when they took the life of an innocent child.

If they had counciling afterwards, fine, if they had nightmares about it, boo hoo. I hope at least one of them has come to terms with the monsterous crimes they did ( as one of them clearly hasnt) and can now sit and and have his soul tortured to etenity about what he has done to this child and his poor poor family. Its just a shame its not in cell instead of a life of freedom.

pigletmania Sat 16-Feb-13 22:25:25

The crime was so serious and henious that they should not be able to lead a normal life, i hope that it does torture them for the rest of their days. Apparently not JV as he was bragging about being involved in killing James, obviously the punishment was not harsh enough

shesariver Sat 16-Feb-13 22:26:09

But then if genetics and environment came together to cause this, how on earth does further punishment or torture help?

Not sure what you mean by torture but regarding punishment we have to have a society that is lawful not lawless - people cant do what they like when they like to hurt or kill people and get away with it. Why should it all be about "helping" then - punishment of course has to come into it when facing the consequences of your actions.

shockers Sat 16-Feb-13 22:32:07

I remember reading about the films that one of them had watched/been made to watch (as he had nowhere else to go) from being tiny. That child was probably about as desensitised to horror and violence as you could get.

Now think about the kind of parents that allow that situation to happen... are they going to be loving and nurturing in all other aspects of life?

One of the boys had allegedly been given cannabis to smoke/alcohol to drink.

I'm imagining my children, at 10, with those kind of stimulants regularly given, neglected and able to view horror/violence without a loving person to explain.

Then I imagine my children as toddlers, enduring what James endured... actually I can't, it's too upsetting.

But the first one was too.

HollyBerryBush Sat 16-Feb-13 22:32:53

Mary Bell was far worse than these two, she successively abducted and murdered twice - she appears to have managed to have a successful life in that she's never reoffended, became a mother and grand mother now. Hacks have periodically tracked her down, but somehow they have managed a complete blackout on her - The Sun, Mail and Stern magazine have offered her enormous amounts of money to tell her story.

I have read Gitta Serenys collaborative book, with Mary Bell - the majority of it on line. Its quite horrific. From the age of 4 she was prostituted by her mother, when in the approved centre, she was the only girl and ritually sexually abused by the other boys AND staff. If anyone were going to revert, I would have thought it would be Mary Bell. Seems the rehabilitation system has done good work with her. But she will always look over her shoulder of course.

Pity her daughter who had to be told, and the life ban will cease when Mary Bell Dies and the daughter and grand daughter will be the next press victims.

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 22:33:17

Sending people to prison is only the way we do it shesariver, because it's what we've inherited and we don't know any better.

You can't really say it works, if the aim of it is to have people better equipped not to hurt other people when they get out of the other side.

shesariver Sat 16-Feb-13 22:40:41

agent I agree with you, but I don't think the aim is totally rehabilitation because I dont think everyone is capable of this i.e psychopaths - of course it would be nice to think that every one could be but I personally think this is idealistic and prison is also about punishment, and why not. As to what to do...who knows.

rodandtheemu Sat 16-Feb-13 22:49:40

What about repeat offenders? Rapists,child molesters,thieves ....rehabilitation doesnt work for every one.

I am i must say an advocate for the learning of skills, education, anger managment essential life skills in the prison system, BUT alas it cant help evey one and indeed dosnt work for every one. re offending is high. It would be great if we could wave a magic wand and they never re- offended and never had to go to jail ( also it would save us millions!!) but we cant- so they have to be sent there.

agent if your child had been james, how would you have delt with it? No prison, maybe some hugs and counciling?

edam Sat 16-Feb-13 22:49:49

Very good point about Mary Bell having been successfully rehabilitated, Holly.

There have been many attempts to seek explanations for Venables and Thompson being able to conceive of and do such an evil thing. They were clearly children who had been warped by their families and by their appalling experiences - perhaps adding to some inherent streak of evil, who knows? They also acted in tandem - and there's plenty of evidence that even adults will act far worse in the company of others than they will on their own.

But what's our excuse? We all - as a society - put 10 year olds on trial as if they were adults. It was a disgusting spectacle. The whole country baying for blood - no better than bear baiting.

They did something terribly evil but they were children barely of the age of criminal responsibility, and children whose entire lives had been rotten. What's our excuse for the way we behaved? Did it make people feel good, did demonising them reassure everyone that we are moral beings who could never do anything evil? I don't think enjoying working yourself up into a lather about a pair of children who were not able to be a threat to anyone by that stage is particuarly moral or decent.

Whatever, the question is what happens to them now. Personally, I think Venables should stay inside. He's clearly not safe and not able to cope with life outside prison. The child porn should be enough to ensure he stays locked up for good. Thompson presumably is doing OK outside, given he's not been returned to prison. I think we should all walk away and mind our own business, tbh.

edam Sat 16-Feb-13 23:00:44

I once interviewed a rehabilitated murderer. He had carried out two horrible, horrible crimes, involving extreme violence. He served 23 years - each one of them justified - and has been out on licence for several years now. He will always be on licence, just like any other lifer.

He had an appalling childhood, and ended up homeless at 10, his mother dead, his father a violent thug. He told me about being a runaway child. How he used to walk down the street at twilight, peering in through the windows of the houses he passed, seeing familes watching TV together or eating dinner, and wondering how on earth he could get himself a family or a life like that, and knowing it was hopeless.

That doesn't justify what he did. But it does perhaps explain why that child became a man who could use horrific violence - he didn't have the constraints tha the rest of us have. At a tender age, he didn't have anyone who gave a damn whether he lived or died, let alone whether he had food in his belly, shoes on his feet, or whether he was afraid.

What made a difference for him was having a prison tutor who believed he was a human being. Who educated him, and enabled him to understand how to put himself in someone else's shoes.

He says he is spending the rest of his life trying to prove himself to her. To prove that he was worth the investment of her time - to prove that he can contribute something to society. He said he knows it would be ridiculous to think he could ever somehow make up for what he did - nothing can achieve that. But I think his life now has some worth, and has made a contribution. Not one that wipes out his crimes, but one that is more ruddy use than just leaving him to rot.

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 23:00:58

I know there's just no helping some people rodand, and others should never be walking around free, but I dunno, it's just not effective.

I haven't got strong opinions that prison should be abolished or anything, and I don't do hugs grin

If it were my child I would probably find it difficult to overcome the feeling that I didn't want the person to live, even though I totally oppose it now.

But I would be a broken person and not someone who should have any sway over stuff like that.

DizzyZebra Sat 16-Feb-13 23:04:43

I have always been on the fence over whether I think T & Vs identities should have been kept a secret - Well, as long as i've known about the case, I was the same age as James when it happened, So obviously i didn't know much then.

This facebook thing has convinced me they should have remained an absolute secret.

Not for their benefit. But James' family.

One man killed himself after being accused of being Robert Thompson. I hate to think how James' family must feel about that - I sincerely hope they do not feel any guilt over this. I can only, thankfully, imagine what must go through your head with a case like this - But i have been thinking - How would i feel if someone innocent lost their life, in the name of my child, in the name of justice for me and my family? I wouldn't want it.

I can't understand how people can use this innocent boys names in actions that end in the same result as T&Vs crimes - And they sit there patting themselves on the back for it.

I just hope to god James' Mum does not feel in any way connected or responsible for the actions of mindless idiots that do this.

AgentZigzag Sat 16-Feb-13 23:05:38

Edam, do you think that public opinion/revulsion at their crimes, fueled by the media attention, played a part in the decision to try them in an adult court, or was it just that they didn't know what else to do with them?

frustratedworkingmum Sat 16-Feb-13 23:05:44

My cousin just posted these on my fb, i dont want those pictures on my wall - i wasn't on the jury, i wasn't there and it is not my place to act as judge.

edam Sat 16-Feb-13 23:09:41

Agent - I don't know but I suspect that it was revulsion at their crimes. And of course that reaction is right and proper. The crime was revolting. But that doesn't justify turning the trial into some kind of spectacle, or justify people who banged on the sides of the prison van taking them into court.

rodandtheemu Sat 16-Feb-13 23:19:38

good point dizzy I've had 3 different ones tonight.To be fair the bloody images for a lot of the shite on face book are ridiculous, im forever hiding posts of people.
How ever i watched an interveiw with James mother saying she had been informed venables had been socializing in the area she lived in and felt she could have been stood at the side of him in a bar and wouldnt reconise him -that made her feel sick, and rightly so.

Right im off, apparantly im neglecting Dp and its my turn to brew up!

rodandtheemu Sat 16-Feb-13 23:27:38

* edam* I would have missiled the van if it was my child....of course if i had a missile launcher! Which i dont honest!

It was a over wraught display of emotion and to be fair it mirrored the majority of the nation.
I think there should have been a media black out for peace of the family.

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 09:13:34

I totally agree with you Edam, it is a very good explanation of why thse boys what they did, it's very sad tat chidren are subjected to abusive and neglectful childhoods like this, there must have also been something more in their psyche, that combined with environmental factors and working in tandem cased tem to brutally murder that little boy

rodandtheemu - What would you have done if it was your 10 year old IN the van? Still out with the missile launcher?

I can only assume that the answer would be that your child wouldn't be there, having never had the horrific upbringing that those children had. To my mind, it was still children in that van - children whose blood everyone wanted.

This in no way takes away from the awful awful awful crime - they of course deserved punishment, and the family deserved justice.

I agree with edam - a great post.

thegreylady Sun 17-Feb-13 11:14:57

I have now seen a third set of photographs purporting to be RT and JV. That means at least four and possibly six innocent men are at risk. As for the real RT and JV they are not worth a minute of our time. If they have been rehabilitated they will live with the horror of what they did forever. If not I hope they rot in prison as they surely will reoffend in some way.

RandallPinkFloyd Sun 17-Feb-13 11:23:30

Fantastic post edam genuine insight. Thank you.

thegreylady Sun 17-Feb-13 11:27:47

Just to say that the Mary Bell case was different. The first murder was apparently a game that went wrong-there was no torture and no premeditation. The second one I think was deliberate-she didn't seem to understand that death was permanent. I taught at the school she went to in the term after the summer when the crimes were committed. The staff all remembered her as a quiet, uncared for child who lived in poverty with abusing parents and grandparents. The other girl involved was May Bell (no relation) who was older but apparently had SN of some kind and she was completely exonerated at the trial as she didn't understand. Mary too seemed unaware of the seriousness of what she had done. It is interesting that the public villification of MB at the time was less intense that that we have for James Bulger's killers. That is because of the viciousness of the murder and the premeditation.
Simply both crimes were horrific but one was evil beyond comprehension.

thegreylady Sun 17-Feb-13 11:30:09

Just to clarify-I taught in the school after she was already in custody. The case was very much at the centre of school life then and the children were all fully aware of what had happened.

Kat45 Sun 17-Feb-13 14:01:49

I have also reported this to Facebook. Very disappointed and disgusted that they are apparently happy for this to be shared around the net. Hate the incitement to mob mentality and possible lynch threat; these photos are illegal and not verified and have inspired hate filled, sick comments; people seeming happy to judge without knowing facts & showing no understanding that this awful crime was committed by very disturbed, I'll treated children; where is the compassion for all involved. Cannot understand facebooks decision and think more should complain. Maybe then they would listen

rodandtheemu Sun 17-Feb-13 14:46:28

I think this thread has now took on a nature v nurture tone, which has been raging for a long time and still hasnt been won not even by the amature phycologists on here!

Nature endows us with inborn abilitys, personalities and traits then nurture takes these genetic qualities and moulds us in to who we are when we grow and mature.

They both ahve a part to play.

If these boys did what they did because its nurture thats at fault, we are who our parents shape us in to, why are there differences in peoples sexuality, why are people gay/straight?

While, genes and enviroment DO have an effect, it does not MAKE people do things, we still CHOOSE to do things - thats what seperates us from animals.

Being ill- treated does not make child killers, the agressive traits are all ready there.

I do not have one ounce of compassion for T and V all my emotions go to the Bulger family.

nessie I honestly dont know how i would feel if it was my child in the van, horrified, disgusted - in them-myself, I certainly would'nt feel sorry for them. They took a life of a innocent, vunerable baby - it was premeditated. They could have backed out at any moment.

Maybe I'm not left wing enough....

ComposHat Sun 17-Feb-13 14:56:34

I honestly dont know how i would feel if it was my child in the van, horrified, disgusted - in them-myself, I certainly would'nt feel sorry for them. They took a life of a innocent, vunerable baby - it was premeditated

I would feel exactly the same. most people would. I hope I would be able to accept that my feelings shouldn't be the sole basis on which justice was dispensed to those children who had perpetrated these crimes. My feelings as a victim should be balanced by proportionality and rehabilitation.

zukiecat Sun 17-Feb-13 16:13:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 17:48:36

I totally agree with you zukie, JV was even bragging about it in recent times, he is into chid porn. Obviously their punishment was not enough

alemci Sun 17-Feb-13 17:58:25

yes, he hasn't exactly tried to change for the better has he. I think they should both be still imprisoned and not had identity changes etc.

edam Sun 17-Feb-13 18:07:19

Thanks, randall and nessie.

For those wondering about genes and the environment - it's not as simple as either/or or even both. There's no such thing as a gene 'for' something as simple as eye colour - it's controlled by a whole load of different genes. How much less likely is that there is a gene 'for' psychopathy, for instance?

Also, the emerging science of epigenetics is exploring the mechanisms that control how genes are expressed and whether they are turned on or off - I don't actually understand it to be honest, it's one of those subjects that are fascinating but explanations just slide off my mind and make me go 'wibble'.

A book I read by a psychologist who specialises in personality claimed the reason parents treat their children differently (and we all do, however much we try not to or deny it) is the parent reacting to the child's phenotype. I'm not sure it's that simple, tbh.

HollyBerryBush Sun 17-Feb-13 18:08:10

We can all be amateur psychologists - I think JV wants to go back inside. It's safe there, in reality it's all he knows. His formative years were institutionalised, the outside world? I doubt he sleeps at night.

RT on the other hand, a shrewder character, if reports to be believed, more intelligent. Knows how to not draw attention to himself. I think I've read (although how much truth?) that he is homosexual and in a stable relationship.

20 years is a long time, they are very differnt people to when they were ten. I know I am.

I draw parallels with The Shawshank Redemption (I know its a film) but Morgan Freemans character, Red, he changed for the better didnt he? knew he'd made a foolish, tragic mistake as a teenager and paid for it dearly.

I don't know what the correct solution to either of those boys would have been. The judicial system used the tools in place at the time - and an adult prison would have turned them back to crime I think. They have been given a chance to make good their lives. I hope they do.

JV I think will probably end up committing suicide. I really don't think he is equipped to cope, or come to terms for the past. Some will say thats a fitting end.

lockets Sun 17-Feb-13 18:08:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

edam Sun 17-Feb-13 18:08:45

oops, sorry, meant to say Zukie that yes, I'm quite prepared to believe James' family have been let down by the criminal justice system. It's never been designed to look out for the interests of victims - that's quite a recent idea - and is very bad at it.

zukiecat Sun 17-Feb-13 18:25:31

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lockets Sun 17-Feb-13 18:27:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

zukiecat Sun 17-Feb-13 18:40:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Robert Thompsons identity is protected, from everyone, apart from anyone who he has a relationship with, no one knows.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 17-Feb-13 18:55:11

I would question the word of a police officer who provided such information in the full knowledge that they were not supposed to and knowing that information could be emotionally harmful to the person who it was repeated to.

I would also be curious as to how one would define flouting the conditions again and again.

Given that its quite subjective. Are 2/3 minor breaches over the course of a decade the same as 2/3 major breaches in 6 months?

Saying some one told someone who wrote it down and I read it,does not make it real.

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 18:58:50

Lockers this was public information I believe, why te hell should I know of his identity

zukiecat Sun 17-Feb-13 19:00:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lockets Sun 17-Feb-13 19:17:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 17-Feb-13 19:20:12

There is no evidence that he breached that condition more than once.

But either way. You do not know what he did or didn't do. Neither does anybody who is not professionally involved and those that are, are prohibited from saying

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 19:34:19

Well it des not seem like venables has learnt his lesson pressing chi,d pornography. God I can't stand all these apologists for the murderers

lockets Sun 17-Feb-13 19:36:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 19:38:20
lockets Sun 17-Feb-13 19:42:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 19:43:47

He obviously is revealing to people who he is, seems round of it if you ask me

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 19:44:19

Glad he is being let in prison where he belongs

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 19:45:31

Dies not sound very remorseful of his crime just the strain of keeping his identity secret

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 17-Feb-13 19:46:45

I'm not an apologist either. Just because I don't believe every word of the sensationalist nonsense spouted in the daily fail or believe the sun to be an actual newspaper does not make me one.

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 19:49:56

I do even though it's sensationalist it still reports factual information too

BettySuarez Sun 17-Feb-13 19:51:30

A 36 year old father committed suicide last year following false allegations that he was one of the killers. I would be horrified if anyone I knew was stupid enough to share these pictures on Facebook.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 17-Feb-13 20:02:04

Does anybody expect any paper to print a story saying how deeply sorry he is and how he wishes he hadn't done it?

True or not,would that make a really good story? Do you reckon it would sell papers that those waving figurative pitchforks would want to buy it because after all that's who those rags are aimed at.

pigletmania Sun 17-Feb-13 20:10:58

It would sock, and would be good to hear mabey not from them directly that they were remorseful for their crimes

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 17-Feb-13 20:24:44

According to reports at the time JV did say " tell his mum I'm sorry" but that's rarely referred to. And its more usual to have remorseless tagged onto stories

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