To wonder what reasons people give for being willing to accept an organ but not donate

(594 Posts)
crashdoll Wed 13-Feb-13 20:20:03

What the title says really.

I am happy for all my organs to be donated when I'm gone. I'd also accept an organ transplant if I was in that position. I know there are religious reaons for not donating certain organs but I do wonder how people can rationalise not donating organs if they are willing to accept.

chickensarmpit Wed 13-Feb-13 20:24:48

I wish I could choose who would get my organs. I don't want an alcoholic to be given my liver just for it to be destroyed. For that and many other personal reasons, I will not be donating anything.

CajaDeLaMemoria Wed 13-Feb-13 20:24:51

I need a new kidney.

I can't give my organs. My blend of medical conditions mean that I can't give blood, the bone marrow I donated was rejected and I can't give any of my organs. The jury is out on whether my skin could be donated.

If I got offered a kidney now, I'd take it. It would be seen as selfish if I didn't... I battle it in my head but it's immensely difficult to be on the transplant register without having the option of returning organs.

If you are healthy, it's entirely too black and white.

CajaDeLaMemoria Wed 13-Feb-13 20:26:11

I just want to add that my kidneys are not damaged through alcohol, or anything else that I caused myself. I am not responsible in any way for the deterioration, it's the result of a medical condition.

If I had caused the damage myself, I definitely wouldn't be able to accept an organ.

Smudging Wed 13-Feb-13 20:27:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

notapizzaeater Wed 13-Feb-13 20:28:21

I think a lot of doubters become donators after someone they know needs a part.

I have been on the register since I was 18 - used to have some spectacular arguments with my then partner as he did not approve ( he thought u needed all our bits in an afterlife) and he would have overridden my decision.

In the next few years my dh will need a kidney and I hope he and everyone on the register gets one. My brother n law died aged 31 waiting for a heart.

skaen Wed 13-Feb-13 20:29:13

A lot of people have medical conditions which bar them from donating blood or organs. Funnily enough, the same people are also more likely to need transplants.

crashdoll Wed 13-Feb-13 20:30:50

skaen On the programme I'm watching, the doctor said it was a myth that people with medical conditions cannot donate their organs. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule.

MrsMorton Wed 13-Feb-13 20:32:07

I don't think that was the point of the OP skaen , there are lots of healthy folk who say they wouldn't donate but then they may need an organ and it's suddenly very acceptable...

chickensarmpit Wed 13-Feb-13 20:32:47

Wasn't the government going to make us all donars? Then we could opt out? Or have I dreamt that.

ifancyashandy Wed 13-Feb-13 20:34:18

My mum has asked me not to register whilst she is alive. She says she couldn't bear the idea of my being operated on in my death / not 'complete' IYKWIM. But she would accept me having an organ donation. We both know its hypocritical and difficult but I can't stand the thought of her pain being increased in the event of my untimely death.

expatinscotland Wed 13-Feb-13 20:36:44

' the doctor said it was a myth that people with medical conditions cannot donate their organs. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule.'

It is. Obvious exceptions are those who have had cancer. But even smokers can donate.

skaen Wed 13-Feb-13 20:37:10

She was wondering what reasons people give for being willing to accept an organ but not donate. DH would be willing to accept an organ there really aren't any circumstances in which his organs would be accepted. We've checked.

Shakey1500 Wed 13-Feb-13 20:38:07

DH and I are complete opposites on this topic.

I'm happy to donate anything and everything with a shrug.

DH believes that he needs everything for the afterlife.

I respect his views and vice versa.

Though I really don't get the "you can have everything EXCEPT my eyes" POV (no pun intended)

bruxeur Wed 13-Feb-13 20:38:13

"I'm a selfish hypocrite"

is what it usually boils down to.

VitoCorleone Wed 13-Feb-13 20:38:27

It may make me sound crazt but i also believe that when you die if they take parts our of you then you will never rest in the afterlife/great beyond. Because part of you will always be missing.

And i mean if you have something removed after you've already died, not if you lose/donate something in this life, because obviously you already know when you're alive.

If that makes any sense

Stinkyminkymoo Wed 13-Feb-13 20:38:32

I think it is worth bearing in mind that most people who need an organ are likely not to be able to donate. (I'm not saying this as a fact, just as a hunch - not been watching the itv program).

I'm an organ donor, I would however hope that my organs would go to a good home. smile

deste Wed 13-Feb-13 20:38:39

I will donate everything except my eyes. I do have a donor card.

delilahlilah Wed 13-Feb-13 20:42:26

I think you should only be able to accept an organ if you are a registered donor.

mackerella Wed 13-Feb-13 20:42:39

Can I ask why you wouldn't donate your eyes (actually, I think it's just the corneas?), deste? How are they different from other organs?

ILikeToMoveItMoveIt Wed 13-Feb-13 20:43:29

I think bruxeur hit the nail on the head.

All this afterlife mumbo jumbo shite does my mash in.

Adsss Wed 13-Feb-13 20:43:37

Cards can and do get lost or damaged and you may not be carrying yours when you are taken to hospital. Adding your name to the register is a more permanent way of expressing your wishes. You can still carry a card if you wish to.

This weeks stats
ACTIVE TRANSPLANT LIST
Current at 07.02.13
Total (Paediatric <18yrs)
Kidney 71
Pancreas 2
Kidney/pancreas 0
Pancreas islets0
Heart 17
Lung 18
Heart/lung 3
Liver 27
Other (multi-organ) 3
TOTAL 141 and that's not even the adults. Some donations can be live donor, others from adult to child however the numbers are tragic when96% would take an organ if they needed one but only 33% are registered.
www.organdonation.nhs.uk/
It just takes a few minutes, and tell your loved ones your wishes

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lottiegarbanzo Wed 13-Feb-13 20:43:50

Surely the reality is generally apathy. People don't think about needing or giving, or are well disposed toward sthe idea but take no action. Needing might catch them unaware. That's why I think the 'opt out' approach is a good idea.

TidyDancer Wed 13-Feb-13 20:44:25

The "alcoholic might get my liver" argument is flawed IMO. I'll leave aside the likely low odds of that happening, and just ask anyone to look at the alternative. Is it really worse for an alcoholic to have your liver than it is for it to be cremated or buried with the rest of you?

I give blood and if my organs are wanted after my death, then anyone who needs them is welcome to them.

DP and the rest of my family are aware of this and support it. They ALL would do the same.

ariane5 Wed 13-Feb-13 20:47:39

My sister is very pro organ donation and has made it very clear to me that she wants to one day donate. My DM however is very anti and if something were to happen to dsis I know she would say no to donation as is dsis next of kin. Iam just praying the situation never arises as either way if I got involved somebodys wishes would be overlooked.

Personally it is not something I like to think about but my gut instinct is that I would be happy to accept+donate myself but could never donate if was one of the dcs.

I've been on the list since I was a child. I feel it would be selfish of me not to

expatinscotland Wed 13-Feb-13 20:48:48

I don't think that family should be able to override the wishes of the donor, EVER

glossyflower Wed 13-Feb-13 20:48:51

I found the problem when my dad needed a bone marrow transplant and we couldn't find a match.
Anyone pretty much can donate and you don't have to be dead, but when I was trying to recruit I came across many people who knew my dad, friends and family, who said they would donate to my dad but didn't want to go on the register and end up giving to a stranger!
One was found in the US eventually luckily.
I'm on the donor register as I don't believe you need your physical body after death.
Most people who die would not go on to donate their organs anyway, it's usually patients who have been brain damaged, ventilated etc because most people don't realise the donor has to be kept artificially alive whilst their organs are harvested. They are brain dead but still on a ventilator otherwise the organs will be deprived of oxygen and die.
If you die in your sleep at home you will not be donating organs.

ILikeToMoveItMoveIt Wed 13-Feb-13 20:51:02

You will not receive a donor liver if you are an 'active' alcoholic. Regular blood tests are carried out to ensure you are no longer drinking. Even if you admitted that you had 'just one little drink' to your HCP, you will be taken off of the list.

It is not up to the individual to decide who receives their organs. It is up to the HCP's to decide who is most in need at that moment in time.

If you were to decide you won't donate your organs because an alcoholic may get them (which they won't), you are also possibly denying a child a life.

JuliaSqueezer Wed 13-Feb-13 20:51:30

They can take what they like of mine, it's not like I'm going to be needing it myself.

I do think an opt-out system would be better - that way those who genuinely don't want to (whether their reasons are sensible and well-thought-out or not) can put in the tiny bit of effort requied to make that known. And the default position for the rest of us is "Use it if you like, I was either in favour, or at least I wasn't bothered enough about the issue to express a view against it". That way next of kin would not feel bad about doing something they had not discussed during the person's lifetime.

Would an alcoholic getting your liver when you're dead be such a terrible thing? You might prefer it to go to someone else, but if yours goes to the alcoholic then the next one that becomes available will go to someone else. Otherwise you are just reducing the total availability by 1, not changing the outcome for a more "deserving" recipient.

Thewhingingdefective Wed 13-Feb-13 20:54:02

I don't have a problem with organ donation for me. What I find hard to think about is the possibility of donating my children's organs, but I would of course, accept organs if they needed them. I would hope I could find the strength to do the same for another family. I hate thinking about it though.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 20:54:29

Because they are selfish hypocrites? Or superstitious idiots? Or on occasion, both?

Possibly?

crashdoll Wed 13-Feb-13 20:56:31

The online form to fill out for organ donation has been down since the programme started.

willybreeder Wed 13-Feb-13 20:56:49

Wow I' m stunned about the needing organs for the afterlife ! But I'm also sad about the comment about not wanting to donate DC organs if they died.
It would give me comfort knowing they had been put to use. I feel strongly that its selfish not to give back to someone who might need it.

Adsss Wed 13-Feb-13 20:58:13

An adult liver may be split between an adult and a child by "worrying" about the adult recipient you may be denying the child

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 20:58:23

For those who are happy to donate, have you ever thought about live donation?

Genuine question, not intending to provoke any arsey responses.

I was a live donor nearly two years ago. It really was a put your money where your mouth is situation. But so very worth it for the lives it can change.

Personally those who are exempted for medical reasons shouldn't be allowed to accept if they aren't prepared to donate.

DH got my kidney. But one day my beautiful little boy will probably need heart/lungs and possibly liver. He won't be able to donate - but he has been the cause for getting people to sign up.

It is hypocritical and selfish to refuse donation but accept an organ.

PleasePudding Wed 13-Feb-13 20:59:05

I'm o the register and so are my children (4 and 3) that felt weird when we registered with the GP but if anything good can come from death then that is ok with me I suppose.

I don't care who gets what - an alcoholic needing a second chance with a second liver or a small child. Whoever and whatever they are they have more use for it then I do. It is not a conditional or judgemental gift.

My husband has really rubbish vision and can barely see anything in one eye, he was told nothing could be done and then almost a year ago they decided to do a corneal transplant. Within 24 hours he could see so much better; it is amazing. Maybe not life-changing Luke a kidney or heart but genuinely amazing. A year ago someone died but before they did they signed something and eight people's lives are so much better for that. Thank you whoever you are and whoever your relatives are who let it go ahead.

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 21:00:12

Those who aren't exempt for medical reasons

Knew I shoulda previewed it first!

HollyBerryBush Wed 13-Feb-13 21:00:31

If you are in need of an organ, like DHs aunt with a kidney, the rest of her body was shot to pieces after 20 years on dialysis and of no use to man nor beast after she died.

Its a bit like blood doning - my children have all be in receipt of pints of the stuff, but none can now donate due to being receivers.

chickensarmpit Wed 13-Feb-13 21:01:03

I'm on the bone marrow register and I give blood. But that doesn't really matter. It's my body and my choice. Would I be called selfish if it was for religious reasons?

PimpMyHippo Wed 13-Feb-13 21:02:03

I think lottiegarbanzo is right about apathy - I imagine there are a lot of people who wouldn't mind donating their organs, and would certainly be willing to accept one, but they never actually get around to signing up to the register. I agree that an opt-out system would make far more sense.

Out of interest, what religion do you belong to if you believe you will need your organs in the afterlife? I ask because my parents are Christians and believe that we don't need our physical bodies in heaven, and I'd assumed that most other religions had a similar idea.

Anyway, even if you want to keep your organs for the afterlife, there's always blood and bone marrow donation! wink

Adsss Wed 13-Feb-13 21:04:09

I doubt we would ever be able to convince the opposing argument to change and don't think we should degenerate to trying. However for those who have not got round to it I would love to give a hug of support in taking the step to register.
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ILikeToMoveItMoveIt Wed 13-Feb-13 21:05:38

Yes I would think you selfish if it was on religious grounds.

chickensarmpit Wed 13-Feb-13 21:06:35

I don't like the idea of an opt out system. You're body is your own and the government should keep out of it.

larks35 Wed 13-Feb-13 21:06:55

I personally think we should adopt the system whereby you have to actively de-register from donation. I had a doner card (lost over time) and constently agree to donating my parts when I donate blood. But, I am aware that all it would take is for my partner or kids to say no and that would be it, my wishes would be forsaken. I think we need a change in law.

GrowSomeCress Wed 13-Feb-13 21:08:08

I want to register now but the website doesn't seem to work

Adsss Wed 13-Feb-13 21:09:11

GrowSomeCress <HUG><CHEER>

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 21:09:34

chickens the government can keep out of it, by the person opting out of the system. It's just as simple as the current form to register for organ donation.

Ae you really comfortable accepting a potential organ knowing you are so against donating one?

Adsss Wed 13-Feb-13 21:09:37

( that was for taking the step to register - not for the site going down!)

crashdoll Wed 13-Feb-13 21:11:00

I don't have an issue with people who would neither accept nor receive for religious reasons, however I would question why religion says it's ok to receive and not give.

GrowSomeCress Wed 13-Feb-13 21:11:49

Adsss grin I'll keep checking every now and then and sign up when it comes back smile

larks35 Wed 13-Feb-13 21:12:08

Oops, realised that I'm way behind the debate. Chickensarmpit seems to be the only person actively against the idea, so surely as you feel so strongly, you would de-register and that would be it.

ILikeToMoveItMoveIt Wed 13-Feb-13 21:13:05

The government have nothing to do with organ donation.

Do you think there are people in Whitehall cooking up some sort of organ donation scam? confused

chickensarmpit Wed 13-Feb-13 21:13:15

If you de-register, how would that work if you lose a child? Can you say you don't want to donate there organs or would the child have to de-register? It's a slippery slope if you ask me. How long until the government decide that they would actually own your organs/body? ( to much x files)

I hope the system is busy due to new potential donors? grin

Shenanagins Wed 13-Feb-13 21:14:01

Larks i agree the law needs changing. I am on the register, carry my donor card and have informed my family of my wishes but it pisses me off that if the time comes they can refuse.

chickensarmpit Wed 13-Feb-13 21:14:59

I was on the register lark but I came off after an accident in the family <bitter>

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 21:15:41

Stop looking for bullshit reasons Chicken. Your views are selfish and it's being called upon.

The opt out system works well in other European countries and has done for many years without successive governments wanting to 'own' peoples bodies.

It's fine to say you wouldn't donate - I have no problems with those who wouldn't donate, but I wouldn't expect them to openly admit they'd accept an organ either.

chickensarmpit, you are talking shite! Of course the government wouldn't 'own' your body if we had an opt-out system.

If more people had such attitudes my DH would be dead and my DCs wouldn't have been born. angry

I think it's disgusting that family can override your wishes.

chickensarmpit Wed 13-Feb-13 21:18:11

Just because you don't agree with what I am saying, it doesn't mean it's bullshit. I have the right to an opinion, just like you do. That doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

Bunfags Wed 13-Feb-13 21:19:34

Caja, I've just got shot of a kidney, so I don't plan to donate the other one. I'm not sure if they can take any others if I'm still alive, as I need the rest. Can you manage on one lung? Maybe they could have some of your intestine?

Other than that, they're welcome when I die. They could use me for parts, experiments or as a teaching aid. I hope they find the cadaverous remains of some use. Soylent Green anyone?

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 21:20:19

You have the right to an opinion however you are trying to allude that an opt out system would mean that the Government retains the right what to do with your body. That is untrue and bullshit. Like I said opt out systems work very well in other countries, so it's not like it's a new practice the UK are making up just to harvest dead people.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Wed 13-Feb-13 21:21:07

I am on the organ donor register and have told my husband this. He isn't sure whether he wants to donate. t I like to think that as he isn't sure, or as someone mentioned is apathetic, I would agree to his organs being donated, if I ever had to make that decision.

I imagine it must take incredible strength and courage to agree, at that terrible moment, to a loved one or child's organs being donated. I have great admiration for those who do.

But if you are spouting something that is incorrect then it is bullshit. confused

thistlelicker Wed 13-Feb-13 21:23:17

I'm diabetic I know I can't give blood, but I'm rhesus neg in blood n stock r low! I don't need blood but would give if could! Not sure if I can donate organs

I give thanks to those brave people who gave DH the chance of life.

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 21:26:25

Caja I'll keep my fingers crossed you get a kidney soon. We had both MIL and DH on the transplant list for many years. Both had quite a wait but have had their call. Unfortunately, due to the toll the dialysis process takes on the body they won't be able to donate but they are eternally grateful.

I hope you get your call soon.

I think those of you who are unwilling to donate must be in the fortunate position of never seeing a person in need. I have. I see them all day long in fact.

A donated kidney can give a patient a life TWICE as long as that they would have on dialysis. It frees them from time consuming treatments - and I mean hours and hours. It frees them from needles, from the risk of bleeding from their dialysis access, from the risk of infection through their dialysis access. It frees them from really serious assaults on their body image, it allows them to have children and to see their children and grandchildren grow up. It allows them the energy to work, it allows them to travel without having to plan dialysis. It gives LIFE.

I have no time for anybody who can read all that and then think 'ah but when I'm DEAD it would be best for that organ to rot with me'. You're WRONG. Really wrong.

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 21:29:16

Northern don't forget heart attacks - dialysis has such a toll on the body. DH had two whilst waiting for a transplant. That had to be our scariest moment -DH's heart attack when DD was four weeks old. That's when I decided to be a live donor.

I know someone who was involved in the heart rendering decision to donate her DB's organs.

A few years later her new DH needed a transplant in the same hospital.

goinnowhere Wed 13-Feb-13 21:33:13

I positively love the idea of donating. Would make sense of my life really. I dontthink family should be able to override the wishes of someone on the register. How selfish. Not their body.

lisad123everybodydancenow Wed 13-Feb-13 21:34:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Good point Reindeer. Renal failure exerts all sorts of terrible pressures on the body and patients suffer all sorts of cardiac and circulation issues. Go to any dialysis unit and you'll find patients with amputations and you can find somebody with pretty much any cardiac problem you like to name. The quicker people are transplanted the better for them because you can minimise the damage done to the rest of the body.

MerryCouthyMows Wed 13-Feb-13 21:37:56

Because they won't have my organs because of the medications I take. Doesn't mean I won't ever need an organ though.

Should I refuse a transplant if I ever need one just because my medications deem that I can't donate mine?

I was on the donor register for years before I started on this medication - I have a cousin who had a kidney transplant when she was 10yo, thanks to that she is now an oncologist.

KatyTheCleaningLady Wed 13-Feb-13 21:37:58

I would be happy to donate, but I am ineligible for any donation (even blood) for medical reasons.

landofsoapandglory Wed 13-Feb-13 21:38:28

One evening last week DS2(16) asked me if he could go on the organ donor register. I had a chat with him to make sure he understood what it meant, and as he did I said yes. Both DH and I are on it, as is DS1(18). DS2 asked me to promise him I would carry his wishes out should he die.

I have to say it was a very strange conversation to have with him, but I am glad I have had it. I am proud of him for being mature about it and broaching the subject, and now I know how he feels I think it could make a very, very hard descion slightly easier to make. Not only that, he chatted about it to his friends and some of them have signed up as well.

I, too believe that if you can donate you should donate if you ever intend to take a donated organ.

ChuffMuffin Wed 13-Feb-13 21:38:30

I want to donate everything. It's not like I'm gonna have much use for them if I'm in a position to donate them, am I? grin

JuliaSqueezer Wed 13-Feb-13 21:39:14

Re being against it for religious reasons: I like to think that God (or whatever higher power you believe in) would be pleased that you were helping your fellow man.
If you can, you should.

MrsMorton Wed 13-Feb-13 21:40:41

Lots of folk missing the point here I think; IMO if you CAN donate, you should. If you CAN'T, then well, you can't.

My conscience would prick me every day if I was in the first camp but felt it appropriate to accept organs...

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 21:43:17

merry my DS will one day need a lung transplant. He will never be in a position to donate - his body just wouldn't be suitable, not to mention all the meds pumped into him over the years.

This shouldn't stop people donating, but make them more aware of what people have to endure before they get to transplantation- it really is last resort.

Great news about your cousin - that is amazing.

Adsss Wed 13-Feb-13 21:43:35

For those interested in different religious perspectives on Organ transplant have a look here....
http://www.chd-uk.co.uk/organ-donation/transplantation-and-religions/

Interestingly somwtimes it is the lack of knowledge of what the consensus of the religion is which leads to a refusal of dontation

What a waste, well done Adsss.

TandB Wed 13-Feb-13 21:48:14

I work with someone who is only alive because the parents of a young man who died, made a generous decision in the awful aftermath of his sudden death.

Because they thought of someone else, even at such a terrible time, a lovely man is alive and healthy today.

I hope that they remember what they did and feel proud that they could make that decision.

If anything happens to me, anyone can have any bit of me that will help them. I won't need it so it might as well go to someone like my colleague.

clucky80 Wed 13-Feb-13 21:51:11

I had a double organ transplant 6 years ago. I strongly believe that I wouldn't be here now if I hadn't received the amazing gift of life from an amazing 19 year old boy. I am in regular contact with his mum and I know that she takes a great deal of comfort from the fact that her son has given life to 4 other people.

LayMizzRarb Wed 13-Feb-13 22:03:17

Anyone can have my organs after I die. I have agreed to this in the hope that others lives may be saved/improved. I am not in a position to judge who is worthy of receiving them. If my liver were given to an alcoholic I hope that it would be impetus to try and change their lives for the better.

searching4serenity Wed 13-Feb-13 22:46:31

Is There an age when one's body is no longer useful for organ donation? If reasonably healthy? Just curious...

As for the question - anyone can have my organs
- how amazing to give 1/ several people lives after you've gone! I'm on the register.

TroublesomeEx Wed 13-Feb-13 22:51:38

I've said before that I have some real issues with organ donation.

The idea of taking parts of one person's body and putting them into someone else's body and that person having to take drugs for the rest of their lives to stop their body from rejecting the body parts because they shouldn't really be there just doesn't sit very comfortably with me.

However, if either of my children needed a transplant, I wouldn't hesitate to accept one for them, even though my feelings would be the same. And, as I am not prepared to receive something I wouldn't be prepared to give, I am on the donor register.

My son has said they can have anything except his eyes (he's 14).

mackerella Wed 13-Feb-13 22:58:51

Sorry to repeat my question, but a couple of people have now mentioned being willing to donate anything except eyes. Why? I don't really get why they're different from other body parts, but perhaps my perspective is skewed because DS is visually impaired and we are often asked if he could be "cured" by an eye transplant. (No, they don't exist, especially not for retinal conditions like his, but we would accept them if they did!) My boss has keratoconus and has had a corneal transplant, so I do appreciate the difference it can make for some conditions.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 13-Feb-13 23:00:09

I'm one of those 'selfish hypocrites' that some posters would call me, and I've had this conversation on here more than once because I'm not entirely comfortable with the way I feel about it. But I still think it's my choice.

I donate blood, I am on the bone marrow register, and I would willingly be a living donor for a member of my family, having had a close friend recently donate a kidney to her sibling. But I don't like the idea of parts of my body being taken after I die. I just don't. I'm not comfortable with the thought, and my DH feels the same way I do, so we have agreed that we wouldn't do it if asked.

I would accept an organ because I'm human with a normal human survival instinct. If I had the choice of leaving my children without a mother and my husband a widow, then I think it would be pretty selfish of me to tell them they can do without a mother and wife because of my own personal discomforts.

If that makes me selfish, so be it. They're my organs and I don't have to justify myself to anyone.

44SoStartingOver Wed 13-Feb-13 23:01:21

I am very willing to donate anything anybody might need but struggle with the idea of being a beating heart donor ( I think that us what it is called, but may be out of date).

I have been with loved ones at the moment of death, so for an operation to begin before that point distresses me as an idea.

I guess I need to get up to speed.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Wed 13-Feb-13 23:03:03

You're cool with other mothers and wives not being able to make that choice though clouds?

You know it won't matter if you feel comfortable or not, right? With being dead and all?

If you think being alive as a wife and mother is so important - and I agree it is! - you should surely be happy to enable someone else to do it, given that you'd have their organs off of them if the situation were reversed?

TroublesomeEx Wed 13-Feb-13 23:05:43

mackerella I don't know really. I'm not too sure why the difference with eyes. I suppose it's for the same reason that I think I'd rather have cataracts than an operation to remove them!

Eyes are just something that make people feel very squeamish.

I know someone who had a corneal transplant for keratoconus too and I know that he became quite distressed whilst waiting for the operation because of the whole would he be able to see what the previous 'owner' had seen.

It might have something to do with eyes being the window to the soul. Eyes are very personal in a way that a kidney or a liver isn't.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 23:06:57

"I would accept an organ because I'm human with a normal human survival instinct. If I had the choice of leaving my children without a mother and my husband a widow, then I think it would be pretty selfish of me to tell them they can do without a mother and wife because of my own personal discomforts."

But you don't mind other children being motherless and another husband being a widower?

I've changed my mind over th course of this thread. I started thinking that it shouldn't matter whether you were a donor or not, you should be able to receive an organ. But I think differently now. No organ donor registration, no donation. And I don't like thinking like that- it goes against much of what I believe in.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 23:09:10

"I know someone who had a corneal transplant for keratoconus too and I know that he became quite distressed whilst waiting for the operation because of the whole would he be able to see what the previous 'owner' had seen."

No, that would involve a brain, memory and personality transplant. Not yet available.

lola88 Wed 13-Feb-13 23:11:31

It makes me sick IMO if you are healthy and able but not willing to register then you should not recieve.

I had a very heated discussion with a friend who was shocked when DS's organ donor card came in when he was months old she said that she would never let anyone 'chop' her childs body up but admitted that she would take an organ for her child. The whole thing makes me very angry

TroublesomeEx Wed 13-Feb-13 23:12:16

No, that would involve a brain, memory and personality transplant. Not yet available.

I think he realised that really! grin But there was just something about inheriting someone's eyes that bothered him. And probably the fear of the operation at all.

But I agree with what you are saying Seeker, which is why I'm on the register. The idea of being willing to benefit from a sacrifice someone else has made when you are not willing to make that sacrifice yourself doesn't sit comfortably at all.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 13-Feb-13 23:16:07

Of course I mind the fact that other people are going through terrible things. hmm

I just know that I'm not one of those people that would take comfort from the fact that my husbands or child's organs were in someone else after they had been put to rest. It would just upset me. As I know my DH would feel the same way, I wouldn't be prepared to make his grief any harder to deal with.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Wed 13-Feb-13 23:18:29

Well, I guess you know yourself and your husband well enough to know whether you could take any comfort from having helped someone else.

I don't know how you can square it with yourself that you'd have someone else's heart off them but they can go hang if the situation is reversed.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 23:21:02

It's not a sacrifice- you're dead!.

BattlingFanjos Wed 13-Feb-13 23:21:05

Just wanted to add my little opinion, fwiw grin I have been registered on the list since I was a child (my mum signed me up). They can have whatever they can use. I like the fact that out of sadness of death, comes happiness of giving life or better quality of life to someone else. I was very against signing DS up (never thought i would be) i think because as a mum I couldn't imagine being in a position to make that decision. However, i came to the conclusion that if I ever was, I couldn't cope with the thought of another child not too far away, ill and in need of help, the thought of me not just losing my son (touch wood I never do) but depriving another parent/family of their baby's chance. Needless to say DS is 5 now and signed up. I'm also on the bone marrow list, give blood and am planning on donating my eggs next year smile

TroublesomeEx Wed 13-Feb-13 23:23:30

It's not a sacrifice- you're dead!.

I was thinking more about the sacrifice of consenting for them to take the organs of a family member rather than yourself.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 13-Feb-13 23:24:24

I square it with myself because I don't currently need anyone else's organs, there is a high chance that I will never need someone else's organs, and because like most people, I will put my own family's feelings while grieving above those of people I don't know.

Like I already said, I'm not entirely comfortable with the way I feel about this, but I can't just switch off to the fact that I'm not comfortable with the thought of having my organs taken after my death.

DizzyPurple Wed 13-Feb-13 23:29:57

Perhaps those of you who don't feel comfortable with the idea of others having your organs should take a stroll around a Hospital ward full of people desperately waiting for an organ to help them live. Adults, children, babies.. Some die each day waiting for organs. Having witnessed this myself many times as a health care professional I struggle to understand how you could deny these people a chance. None of them asked to be so ill, their whole lives are affected and that of those close to them. It can be shocking to see them so ill, and yet the difference following the transplant can be amazing. Really amazing.
Think about it... Then go and sign up.. Potentially you could save many lives. How can that be a bad thing??

Andro Wed 13-Feb-13 23:32:55

I don't carry a donor card, but have discussed my wishes with my DH and DF.
DH is a firm believer in organ donation.
DS is strongly against at the moment but acknowledges that his views may change. In the horrible case of anything happening to him, he has made it clear that he doesn't want us to donate his organs - we both hope his view will change.
DD is too young to care.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 23:34:26

God, I hate that "look after Number One" attitude.

ReindeerBollocks Wed 13-Feb-13 23:35:47

Clouds - it's highly unlikely I'll ever need an organ. But then my son was born and life completely turned on it's head. Life long condition that needs constant management and eventually a massive transplant.

Or like my DH, who contracted a virus that destroyed his kidneys.

There are conditions which come with age, such as diabetes which often need transplants.

Never say you won't need a transplant so that you don't need to think about it. Although at least you were willing to admit that you know you are displaying selfish behaviour.

CloudsAndTrees Wed 13-Feb-13 23:36:58

I hate the attitude that people who give plenty to society are somehow selfish because they want something as simple as the right to decide what happens to their own body, but there you go. We are all different, and entitled to different opinions.

mackerella Wed 13-Feb-13 23:47:14

Thanks for answering, FolkGirl. I guess I don't really "get" the common squeamishness about eyes because DS has had so many eye operations now - they're just bits of anatomy like a heart or a leg. I certainly don't buy into the "windows to the soul" thing either, because that implies that DS's windows (or maybe even his soul?) are defective and broken sad. (Yes, I know it's just a metaphor and that you're quoting what most people think, but it still makes me sad!)

TroublesomeEx Wed 13-Feb-13 23:55:12

Sorry mackerella I didn't mean to say the wrong thing sad and it's not my feelings. They do make me a bit squeamish - but I'm still down to donate them.

I just didn't want your question to remain unanswered and I know you're not really cross with me smile

Smellslikecatspee Wed 13-Feb-13 23:59:04

As far as I'm concerned they can take what ever they want and I'm on the bone marrow list as well as donating blood. The meds I need to be on prevents me from being a live doner.

OH has real issues with this, it's the whole needing to be kept on life support that gets him, on his words what if I recovered? Now to me the idea of lying in a coma or worse being 'locked in' a situation where you're aware but unable to move/communicate sounds like torture to me.
Therefore we have agreed that my Mum has medical authority as she agrees with me. Take what ever they want need eyes included, whatever happens next I'm not going to need it why let it burn or rot in the ground.

mackerella Thu 14-Feb-13 00:21:33

Oh no, I knew what you meant and I appreciate your honest, thoughtful answer - I'm certainly not cross with you! And I'm glad that you're going to donate anyway smile.

I'm obviously very sensitive to this because of my experience, but blindness is often spoken about on MN as being the one of worst things that somebody can imagine - I've seen several posters say that they would rather die than be blind, and one has even said that she would rather her child died than lose their vision (e.g. as a side effect from cancer treatment). If DS's blindness could be cured with an eye transplant we'd take it like a shot - but it's hardly in the same league as needing a kidney or lung transplant.

Anyone can have any bits of me when I've gone. Same applies to DH and DS. If any bit of DS could be passed on to save another DC then that's got to be the best outcome hasn't it?

Jojobump1986 Thu 14-Feb-13 01:18:03

Is there a separate register for live donations? I know about the bone marrow register. I'm all for donations of any kind, although I must admit I've never so much as given blood. blush I was under the required weight until 21, only put on weight as a result of depression & was then on medication. I came off the meds to TTC, got pregnant, waited the appropriate length of time, booked an appointment & then went & got an infected insect bite so I was on antibiotics on the day of the appointment! angry One month later I was pregnant again.
DS2 is due in June & I'm quite tempted to ring up the local donation centre & demand they book an appointment for as soon as allowed afterward! Can you give blood while breastfeeding?

When my DSis was born they said her kidneys hadn't formed properly so she'd probably need a transplant by the time she was 8. When she was 8 they said it would be during puberty. She's now 20 & if her kidney can survive the next 5 years it should last indefinitely but ever since I was 6 I've been waiting to be told I was needed to donate an organ. I've wondered about getting myself checked to see if I'd even be a match - I guess I could give it to someone else if it wouldn't be suitable for her anyway! I don't know if they'd be willing to test me just in case though.

Which organs can be live-donated? Am I right in thinking it's basically just a kidney & a bit of liver, other than blood & bone-marrow?

DP and I are both on the register. I have been since I was a child and asked my mum what the card was. My whole family are registered and aware of each others' wishes. I did a training course as part of Dying Matters week and was surprised about how strongly I felt about it.

DPs dad died of lung cancer in 2010 but he was still able to be a cornea donor. It was important to him and family that even though something terrible had happened, there could be some good. He was such an avid reader and film watcher that it felt very appropriate to pass on the ability to see to somebody.

ThisIsANickname Thu 14-Feb-13 01:36:29

For those who think they need their bits in the afterlife, are you happy accepting organs knowing you are condemning another person to an eternity of unrest so you could life a little longer?

HeadingHome Thu 14-Feb-13 01:51:25

I've been on the register since I can remember. A few years ago my mother had a dual lung transplant.

I would donate organs from my husband and children without a second thought.

HeadingHome Thu 14-Feb-13 01:53:51

I've also had a blood transfusion. This will not disqualify me from donating blood in the future, just have to wait 12 months after transfusion.

Rosduk Thu 14-Feb-13 02:00:42

I lost my son but didn't have the option to donate as he was a premie, but the thought of him not being 'complete' following the post mortum really upset me at the time. I would have allowed donation had he have been
older though.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Thu 14-Feb-13 02:04:07

Clouds, Kittens, absolutely nobody on this thread, or anywhere, ever, has said that "people shouldn't have the right to decide what happens to their own body". That is a total straw argument. Of bloody course it's your body and your choice! This is not a debate about whether one should have the RIGHT TO DECIDE. At all. It just isn't.

It's just that not donating your organs, but being willing to take organs, is really fucking selfish, that's all.

Tortoiseonthehalfshell Thu 14-Feb-13 02:04:52

Chickens. Not kittens. Chickensarmpit and CloudsandTrees, that's who I was addressing that post to.

Greenkit Thu 14-Feb-13 02:13:47

Funny I had this conversation with my DD(16) last night, I am on the register and I am happy to donate anything. I asked dp if she would register, she said she would and would give all but her heart and eyes. I asked her why and she said she felt funny giving her eyes away, talked her round about the heart smile

I used to give blood but am not allowed anymore as I had a blood transfusion in 1989 and I could be a mad cow

Iteotwawki Thu 14-Feb-13 02:35:33

My husband may need a kidney transplant in the next few years. I'm hoping I can be a live unrelated match.

It's supremely selfish to be happy to accept an organ from someone else's grief but at the same time consider your own grief more important than someone else's right to life. Fine if you don't want to donate - then should you ever require an organ, you should be at the bottom of the waiting list and those who would donate theirs (or family members if they are medically excluded from bring donors) should take priority.

reddaisy Thu 14-Feb-13 02:57:06

I haven`t read all the messages but I just see absolutely no reason why people wouldn`t.donate their organs. They could.save a life so in death you could be doing something wonderful for another family and I think that is nothing short of beautiful. DH knows my wishes and will stand by them, he is unsure so as I am so pro organ donation I will decide for him as next of kin grin

I also agree with expat and think no-one should be allowed to overrule your wishes. I would also donate my DCs organs if we were ever in such a horrendous situation as again I think it would be a wonderful thing to do.

It may have already been covered but people often used to say that they didn't want to register in case doctors didn't try to save them in the event of a lifethreatening situation which is clearly rubbish.

And I also think it should be opt out like some other countries.

Get on the register everyone! (As an aside, does anyone know if I need to update my details now I am married etc? I have also moved a lot since I registered at 18!)

MsPickle Thu 14-Feb-13 06:18:35

headinghome the guidance around blood transfusions is you can never donate; I'd love to but I've just checked
http://www.blood.co.uk/can-i-give-blood/who-cant-give-blood/

And it says you can never donate if:

You have received blood or think you may have received blood during the course of any medical treatment or procedure anywhere in the world since 1st January 1980.

And, genuine question, those who believe organs are needed for the afterlife, I presume you wouldn't be cremated?

I'm on the register and will remain so. Dh also. I did it through my drivers licence and checked recently that I was on, I've carried a card since I was a child.

TheFallenNinja Thu 14-Feb-13 06:21:25

I sometimes wonder if AIBU is sometimes used for homework or presentation prep. Tut

Donors have a choice and can make that choice, recipients generally have no choice, just a need.

LtEveDallas Thu 14-Feb-13 06:40:09

When I renewed my car tax this year there was another page to sign up to the Donor Register rather than carry a card. I'm forever losing stuff like that (despite first completing a card as a child) so it was a good option for me. DH is still undecided but agrees to carry out my wishes.

I've explained it all to DD and she said she wanted to sign up, but DH has asked me to wait until he's got it all 'square in his head'.

I think some people just need time to adjust to the thought.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 14-Feb-13 07:05:38

I think people are entitled to make their own decisions about their own bodies, I hate the guilt tripping and name calling that comes hand in hand with this topic. If you choose to donate you are no better than someone who chooses not to.

As for receiving, I'm sure people do what is right for them at the time.

JumpingJackSprat Thu 14-Feb-13 07:07:27

i had thought for years about signing up but "never got around to it". then i met my dp, whose funny, sweet, loving little boy has cystic fibrosis. he takes 9 different medications a day and one day will more than likely need a double lung transplant. he made me see that just spending a minute of my time could change peoples lives. i have nothing but contempt for people who would take and not give. if only you could come and meet this little boy i wonder if you would still think that your squeamishness is more important than his life.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 07:48:20

My son needs a kidney too. He's been waiting a year. He's 26.
I can't donate as I've had cancer and too many major surgerys already.
I really wish I could.
I was on the register so its up to the drs to
Salvage what they can.
I do find it very hypocritical to be happy to receive but not donate but I think it's one of this things that you don't think about until you are in that position.

crashdoll Thu 14-Feb-13 07:54:40

CloudsandTrees

"I square it with myself because I don't currently need anyone else's organs, there is a high chance that I will never need someone else's organs...."

On the Tonight programme about transplants, the specialist was myth busting and stated that people are 4 or 5 times more likely to need an organ than donate an organ.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 07:56:35

I find being accused of being selfish unfair, and inaccurate.

You are basically saying that all the blood that someone has donated is worthless. The fact that someone would be willing to donate bone marrow if they were found to be a match is worthless. Whatever good someone has done for society, or time, money and effort thy have freely given to charity is worthless, because all that matters is that they would choose life over death while at the same time feeling uncomfortable with parts of their body being removed after their death.

It just seems rather pathetic and very small minded to me.

And of course it is about the right to decide. You are saying that someone who wants to exercise their right to decide isn't as worthy of life as someone who just happens to feel differently. How is that right? How is that in any way better than putting someone at the bottom of the transplant list because they haven't paid enough tax, or they aren't educated enough, or they haven't done enough charitable work?

It isn't.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 07:59:45

That's interesting crashdoll.

Why is that then? Is it because there are so many people unwilling to donate, or is it because too many people die when their organs are unusable?

On the last thread like this, someone said that whether you can donate or not was dependant on how many staff were available at the time of your death in certain hospitals, but I don't know if that's true.

MummytoKatie Thu 14-Feb-13 08:09:49

Clouds - the maths is fairly obvious. There are people waiting for donations so not enough donor organs available. And a donor can gives lots of organs at once. So if the average donated is four then

No of people needing an organ > 4 * no of donors.

I suspect the reason is that to donate you need to die in such a way that doesn't damage the organ. So for heart and lungs I'm guessing massive head injury. And these days we are very good at preventing such deaths. (Seat belts, motor cycle helmets etc).

crashdoll Thu 14-Feb-13 08:09:52

Unfortunately, he did not expand. I was quite shocked with that figure. It would be interesting to find out.

Jojo - yes that's my understanding of what can be donated. Everything else you need to keep grin

There have been some fantastic advances with kidney transplant in recent years. 'Higher risk' live related transplants can now take place with organs that would previously have been thought incompatible. What's frustrating about that though is that what makes it higher risk is that there is more of a chance that the transplant won't work and thus a healthy person gives up their kidney for nothing. If more people agreed to donation after death that wouldn't happen. There wouldn't be a need to try these fairly desperate measures.
There are also kidney swaps so if A has renal failure and B wants to donate but doesn't match and C has renal failure but D doesn't match you can still donate with A getting D's kidney and C getting B's - iyswim?

Somebody mentioned heart beating donation. Non-heart beating donation now happens for kidneys and whilst those organs sometimes take a little time to get going once they work there is now eveidence to show that they work as well and last as long as heart beating donations.

I wonder do people understand that for example a transplanted kidney may well not last life long? People can have more than one transplant. Many do. Depending on your age and illness and the condition of the transplanted kidney you could get decades from it or just a few years. A transolant isn't a cure for end stage renal failure but it is the best treatment and it's life changing.

BambieO Thu 14-Feb-13 08:16:33

Just throwing in randomly that I heard someone say once that it's believed by a roman philosopher that your eyes are the 'windows to your soul' I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the eye opt outs some posters have asked about?

PeneloPeePitstop Thu 14-Feb-13 08:20:15

I'm on the register, but have been told by my geneticist that due to the genetic defects I have my organs are unlikely to be useable.

nokidshere Thu 14-Feb-13 08:22:21

I am on the register and all my family know my wishes.

DH is not on the register and does not carry a card - he is far too squeamish to want to think about this stuff if he doesn't have to. I have told him that if he doesn't carry a card or sign up then I will absolutely give my permission for donation should I be asked.

I'm on the donor register, and the bone marrow one (Anthony Nolan).

Agree with the op (obviously this doesn't include recipients (or anyone) who physically cannot be donors, its about the will to do it isn't it).

And I find squeamishness a poor excuse, except my eyes bizarre, and 'an alcoholic might get my liver' unsympathetic to say the least..

And no, I'm not taking away anyone's right to decide, I just respectfully entirely disagree....

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 09:19:43

I am so unbelievably grateful to the people on this thread who have registered as a potential donor. As I said on here last night, I have had a double organ transplant and to put it crudely, would be dead now if I hadn't had it (I'm 32 now and was 26 when I received my transplant). For those people who think basically they are healthy and won't need a transplant anyway so are completely justified in never wanting to donate (but still would accept an organ) I have sadly come to learn that that is a very naive attitude to have. I can tell you 100 percent that I would never have dreamed that I would ever need a transplant! No one ever knows what is around the corner.
After I had my transplant I went through a time when I just felt so incredibly guilty. Guilty that someone had to die for me to live and that maybe out there was someone else who might have needed the organs and that I didn't deserve them if there was someone else more in need.
My life changed so dramatically after my transplant, I am so incredibly lucky. Like I said last night, I am in regular contact with my donors mum and she told me that after she first heard from me that she knew she had made the right choice in donating her sons organs. I think of my donor and his family every day and am getting very emotional just writing this. I had my miracle little boy 3 years after my transplant and his middle name was my donors name.
Please just take a little time to read some of the info on the UK transplant website if you are undecided about organ donation. Thank you if you have got this far! X

Alwaysasking Thu 14-Feb-13 09:20:29

I registered a few years ago, after considering it for a few years but never quite being able to take the step. Then I read a story about a little boy who died waiting for a transplant and his parents said if anything good could come from his death it would be people donating. I read the story in tears as my ds was a similar age and immediately registered.

Quick question though - If my family said 'no' to my organs being donated, despite me being on the organ donation register, what would happen? Read somewhere on this thread that their wishes would be upheld and not my own?!

Iteotwawki Thu 14-Feb-13 09:24:12

I d

Iteotwawki Thu 14-Feb-13 09:31:17

I don't think selfish is the wrong word at all. Willing to take life at the expense of someone else's grief but not willing to donate life at the expense of yours.

Taking but not giving is selfish. And no, the hours of community work, voluntary whatever and litres of blood donated aren't relevant.

If you're not willing to donate then you should have a lower priority than someone who is. It's hypocritical otherwise.

Alwaysasking Thu 14-Feb-13 09:32:17

Not sure if it's been mentioned anywhere else on this thread but on Facebook you can 'create a life event' and select 'health and wellbeing/became an organ donor'. You can then add dates/reasons etc. If it gets 1 person on your friends list to do the same, it is worth doing!

ChiefOwl Thu 14-Feb-13 09:40:24

I have a donor card, the thought of giving my organs away does not bother me in the slightest. I used to give blood but can't anymore as have had a transfusion.

Hadn't thought about bone marrow, wonder if I can ....

ChiefOwl Thu 14-Feb-13 09:45:39

No you have to be a blood donor to donate bone marrow according to the NHS website

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 09:51:41

Just on the ineligibility to donate points ( from the Organ Donation site)
30. Can I be a donor if I have an existing medical condition?
Yes, in most circumstances. Having a medical condition does not necessarily prevent a person from becoming an organ or tissue donor. The decision about whether some or all organs or tissue are suitable for transplant is made by a healthcare professional, taking into account your medical history.

There are only two conditions where organ donation is ruled out completely. A person cannot become an organ or tissue donor if they have been diagnosed with HIV or have, or are suspected of having, CJD.

31. Can I be a donor if I have been turned down to donate blood?
Yes. The decision about whether some or all organs or tissue are suitable for transplant is always made by a specialist, taking into account your medical history. There may be specific reasons why it has not been possible to donate blood, such as having had a blood transfusion or having had hepatitis in the past. Or there may be reasons why you could not give blood because of your health at the time - sometimes a simple thing like a cold or medication that you are taking can prevent you from donating blood.

Owllady Thu 14-Feb-13 09:57:12

My late sister had cystic fibrosis and had a double transplant and her heart was transplanted (well parts of it) to four or five different people

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 09:57:43

I'm on.the register.

I'm actually quite shocked at the idea that some people are not at all willing to.donate but are perfectly happy to accept an organ.

Of.course that is selfish any hypocritical.

And those that won't donate as they'll need a their parts in the after life! As someone up thread said, I hope you wouldn't accept an organ either and condemn that generous donar to the after life with bits missing hmm

Flobbadobs Thu 14-Feb-13 09:59:32

We're both on the register and I donate blood. DH will donate as soon as he stops fainting when presented with a needle, apparently they don't really like taking blood from an unconscious man!
He's unsure about donating his eyes though as he has Glaucoma and can't imagine anyone would get use out of them, happy to be corrected though.
I like the idea of presumed consent and opt out.

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 10:10:10

The squeamishness is understandable, but something that can be overcome. You're a grown up. Overcome it.

tiggytape Thu 14-Feb-13 10:10:49

If the whole concept of organ donation is so abhorrent to you that you could not possibly accept an organ from a dead donor, then I understand why you also couldn't donate. People who have religious objections or believe that organs form part of who you are and aren’t interchangeable might fall into that category and that’s fine.

But if you'd happily accept organs from somebody who had died to save yourself or a relative, I don't understand how that wouldn't translate into also being willing to donate if you happen to go first or go suddenly.

A lot of people also misunderstand the concept of being left alone after death / not being cut open or subjected to more interventions as if it is a choice. If you are in a fit condition to be donating organs after death, it is possible you will be subjected to a Post Mortem – and there is no choice about that. PM’s where deemed necessary are compulsory. And unless you are going to be frozen after death, your body is gone anyway in a very short time. It really is a case of can’t take it with you.

I’ve been on the donor register since I was 16. Initially I signed up for everything except eyes and then 5 years ago I met someone whose sight was saved by a cornea transplant. I amended it and am now signed up for everything. My family all know – some fall into the first category of wouldn’t donate and would refuse to receive no matter what. Most are supportive and are also registered donors.

tiggytape Thu 14-Feb-13 10:14:35

And for those that believe you need your organs for afterlife - what about amputees, or people who've had their wisdom teeth removed or people who've had tissue removed due to cancer?

EauRouge Thu 14-Feb-13 10:23:40

I'm happy to donate anything except eggs. Lungs, heart, liver, corneas- take them all, I won't need them when I'm gone. It's the ultimate form of recycling! I've also just signed up to become a blood donor and I've been on the brain donor list for a few years.

I'd also like to be on the bone marrow donor list but I don't think they'll have me while I'm still breastfeeding. My DSM donated a few years ago and said it was very rewarding and not in the least traumatic or painful.

Binkybix Thu 14-Feb-13 10:57:08

I used to work in a transplantation lab and realised that despite this I wasn't signed up. I changed that quickly, but just goes to show that people who would be willing just don't do it for whatever reason. I signed up when getting a Boots Advantage card. Great idea.

I was a bit squeamish about it, then realised how little importance that had compared to people who would otherwise die. So I got over it. I think lots of people are squeamish about eyes because they think of it being the whole eye, and someone will be walking around with their eyes!

I don't understand how people can think so selfishly to consider accepting an organ but not giving. Maybe if faced with a decision after a family member has died a reaction not to give is understandable. But don't get how someone can think that when thinking about it in theory.

SirBoobAlot Thu 14-Feb-13 10:59:40

I'm on the register. So is my DS. I used to be on there for everything except my eyes when I was younger, though have changed it.

When you're dead, you're gone. And even if there is an afterlife, it's your spirit that goes on. Not your liver.

peeriebear Thu 14-Feb-13 11:23:23

We are all on the register here. Even 5mo DS; when I registered him at the doctors there was a tick box for 'National organ donor register'. It made me feel a bit sick inside but I ticked it, just like I had for DD1 and 2.
I'm baffled by the mindset of feeling uncomfortable with donating. You'd rather have your body parts rot and liquefy underground, or be burned to ashes, than save a very sick person's life? You could be a hero, a literal life saver, part of you will literally live on in tribute to your selflessness. Somebody could have their life put back together, and by extension their family's, just because you ticked yes instead of no.

ZillionChocolate Thu 14-Feb-13 11:33:01

I was another eye refuser, too squeamish and rationalised that corneas weren't life saving. Anyway I grew up a bit and would now donate anything.

I don't believe in God, but I'd like to think that if he came back my 90+ disabled Grandma would be provided with her 20 something fully functioning body rather than a useless old one.

I don't think you could or should impose some sort of moral merits testing for eligibility for organs. It should only be on medical grounds, I assume need and likelihood of success. Personal merit is unworkably complicated (well he was a burglar, but have you looked at his traumatic childhood in care) and I don't think you could ever agree the criteria. For example, is being a soldier good or bad, there are legitimate opinions each way. What about religious observance? Or meat eating?

WileyRoadRunner Thu 14-Feb-13 11:35:22

I had a double organ transplant 6 years ago. I strongly believe that I wouldn't be here now if I hadn't received the amazing gift of life from an amazing 19 year old boy. I am in regular contact with his mum and I know that she takes a great deal of comfort from the fact that her son has given life to 4 other people.

clucky80 ^^ this is the reason I will donate anything from my body when I have passed. I also hope that I have the strength, god forbid, if anything happens to my children.

Giving life to others when you are no longer in need of your body is the right thing to do.

Having watched my mum die (cancer) my feelings were cemented. When I watched her die she was no longer my mum, it was just a body. All the things that made her, her were in her soul.

wonkylegs Thu 14-Feb-13 11:42:14

I am on the register and would happily donate anything that is of use, after all its no use to me but i'd be fortunate if i could help ease another families suffering. Unfortunately it is unlikely that anything much is of use due to the highly toxic drug therapy I'm on for a long term medical condition, which will probably screw up the usefulness of my body to others. sad

TandB Thu 14-Feb-13 11:50:58

I know someone slightly who has just lost a child in a horrific accident. The family immediately agreed to donate all her organs.

I hope it helps someone and brings them some small degree of comfort.

Xiaoxiong Thu 14-Feb-13 12:08:08

I've just realised that although it says on my US driving licence that I would like to donate everything, I wasn't signed up to the NHS register, which I have just done. So thank you adsss for posting the link.

One question - I don't know if my 14 month old DS is signed up, and not sure if I can use that form to sign up someone else. Anyone know?

I think the idea about not registering because you have medical issues or a problem with a particular body part is a bit of a red herring. For all I know my liver is shot but who knows, maybe part of it could be salvaged, or they might be able to use my skin or kidneys or something else. So I think the most responsible thing is to register to donate everything, and let medical professionals judge whether anything would be useful if it came to it.

I've always hoped to be like an Igor from the Discworld novels and help loads of people when I die with body parts they can use grin

borninastorm Thu 14-Feb-13 12:08:10

When my dd was 9 months old she was gravely ill and expected to die. I decided if she did die her organs would be donated because something good would come of from a terrible thing.

Fortunately and amazingly dd survived.

She's on the donor list as are my other two dc's and I've been on it since I was a teenager.

They can have anything and everything tht'll help someone else. They can even use bits for medical science and research if they want. Because without the wonders of medical science dd would not be alive today.

Andro Thu 14-Feb-13 12:46:38

Sorry to hijack, but if any of you had dc who were vehemently opposed to organ donation would you override their wishes if the worst happened?

This is an issue that DH and I don't agree on, he would want to override ds's wishes where as I wouldn't - I may not agree with ds's wishes but I do think they should be respected.

tiggytape Thu 14-Feb-13 12:48:12

No - I would never override somebody's wishes. If somebody had not expressed any wish at all and I was the one who had to decide, I would decide to consent to donation.
But if I knew the person had expressed a desire not to donate then I would respect that.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 12:55:38

I will be honest here and say on my part its pure selfishness. I couldn't bare the idea of parts of my dp or dc being given out to all an sundry I would want them whole.

On the other hand if any of us needed an organ we would Definately accept. And if tey make the changes to opting out ( not sure if this has happened yet) then all of us will be doin this.

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 13:04:15

I find myself extraordinarily upset by this. How can people say they won't donate, but would be happy to take a donation? How can they?

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:10:14

Because human instinct is routed in survival and if an organ donation is what was is needed then of course people will accept. I suspect a lot of people have selfish reasons like I do but I doubt many would admit this.

BiddyPop Thu 14-Feb-13 13:12:07

We don't have a register, but I've had a donation card since my mid-teens (so early that my Mum had to sign it as my next of kin, I wasn't "allowed" decide it myself yet then). I don't think my parents actually have cards, but there was no issue with signing mine. (I have ticked for everything except my lungs - asthmatic - and eyes - I need glasses, but I get away without wearing those so if they actually wanted my eyes, they could take them).

DH has also had a card for donkey's years, also since before he met me. He's ticked everything (he needs to wear his glasses but otherwise good shape).

DH has his silver pin for blood donation but can't at the moment due to travel to the African continent.

I have tried 4 times and donated twice, but had to go on steroids for asthma in my early twenties so cannot give blood anymore because of that. (If I come off the inhalers, I can, but I DO accept that I need them).

We have talked about it in relation to DD in the past, and if anything ever happened, we will be donating her organs too.

I am currently looking into the option of donating my body to medical science (which would probably rule out donation of organs) - but I am only in the early stages of that and I am hopeful that I'd have YEARS to organise myself....

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 14-Feb-13 13:14:29

I find it extraordinary that people seem to think that being upset to have lost a family member would not be the worst that could happen! Do you love your child's liver, kidneys, heart? Do they have some kind of emotional meaning to you beyond the fact that they keep your loved ones alive?

I couldn't bear the idea of my dp or dc not being alive. Anything else is just daft - especially if you wouldn't mind your loved ones containing someone else's heart!

MarianneM Thu 14-Feb-13 13:15:48

People are really hypocritical.

I'm religious. When much younger I used to think that I couldn't be cremated or donate organs. Now I think it's all nonsense.

I would donate everything, mine, my children's and husband's. I think it's terrible that people don't want to donate organs.

There should definitely be an opt-out system.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 14-Feb-13 13:16:30

But you understand that if everyone was that selfish, Fairy, you and your family wouldn't ever be in the position of being able to accept such a donation? So what - do you just hope that most people are selfless so that you can be selfish? Do you have an idea about roughly how many people we can sustain being selfish, as long as the rest are not?

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:17:30

original I would actually be uncomfortable worth he idea of havin a donor organ for any of us as I worry about "memories" etc daft I know but would accept if the choice wa that or death

But I stand by what I say te last thing I would want after losing a child is some pushy dr asking for their organs and someone cutting them up. It's as simple as that for me

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 13:19:00

Jesus wept. sad

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:19:18

I know it's selfish and I have admitted that. If everybody was selfish then donation wouldn't be an option anyway would it so that's sort of a moot point

Pigsmummy Thu 14-Feb-13 13:19:58

Medicines and medical treatment is most common reason. A logic life saving meds result in unusable organs.

MarianneM Thu 14-Feb-13 13:22:47

But Fairy, there are other children who need organs.

Do we not have any pity for other people beyond ourselves and our families?

Xiaoxiong Thu 14-Feb-13 13:23:02

FairyJen interestingly I have almost the diametrically opposite view as you. If my DH or DS died, almost the only thing I can think of that would make me feel a bit better or be any sort of lifeline to hold onto in that awful situation is the knowledge that their mortal remains could help someone else, either through donation, medical research, or what have you. I would feel that they had died as they had lived, with great generosity helping other people and making the world a better place.

My grandmother in her 80s was far gone with Parkinsons and donated her body to medical research. At her memorial service (no coffin obviously) this was pretty much the silver lining to the day and made everyone feel a bit better knowing she was still helping as part of a large medical study to try and help cure Parkinsons.

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 13:23:44

So if you know it's selfish, why not do something about it? You don't actually have to be selfish!

MarianneM Thu 14-Feb-13 13:25:13

Anyway, the body will perish very soon anyway, so what's the good of keeping the organs in a dead body?

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:25:27

mariann I know that but that's why I said it was selfishness. It's not that I have no empathy for other parents it's just my thoughts and feelings on my own dc are always goin to come first even in death

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:27:11

I dont want to do anything about it seeker this is my personal feeling on the matter as its not going to change. Dp agrees with me so even if I changed my mind he would not allow it

EauRouge Thu 14-Feb-13 13:29:37

I agree, Xiao, I would get great comfort from knowing that some other parents wouldn't have to go through the grief that DH and I would go through if we lost either of our DDs.

I can't get my head around why someone would deny a dying child something that could save them.

EasilyBored Thu 14-Feb-13 13:30:57

I would donate my organs, and would consent to my husband's or son's organs being donated. I would look at it from the perspective that although I might be going through a lot of pain at losing my son, I could possibly prevent other parents going through the same. So I would do it. I actually agree with an 'opt out' system as I do think a lot of people just don't even consider it in their day to day lives.

I'm on the bone marrow register too, as is DH. I don't actually give blood regularly because I'm rubbish at it (pass out) and have rubbish veins and they said not to bother. I haven't been for a couple of years (as have been pregnant etc) so I might give it a go again soon.

Dr's aren't allowed to be pushing about it, they just ask kindly if you would consider it.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 13:31:59

So, Fairy, just as a matter of interest, if one of your family needed an organ you would take one, is that right?

Suppose they changed the rules, and said that people would be bumped up the organ recipient list if they had been on the donor register for a number of years, would that encourage you to be willing to donate (as a sort of insurance policy)?

Or suppose your family member was more likely to get an organ if you were willing to donate, would you be prepared to go on the register?

Because, remember, not everyone who needs an organ gets one. Your family member might die on the waiting list because someone else got an organ they could have got; the more people willing to donate, the greater the probability that any given recipient will get one in time.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 13:33:12

Sorry, just to simplify it: if one of your dc need an organ in the future, the pool of available organs would be much greater if no-one was as selfish as you are.

So your selfishness might ultimately cause the death (in the distant future) of one of your children.

Would that change your mind?

jellybrain Thu 14-Feb-13 13:37:20

Registered when I renewed my car tax on line recently. Then told DH that I would like to donate whatever they want to takegrin
The idea of an opt out system makes a lot of sense to me too

EauRouge Thu 14-Feb-13 13:40:07

Sorry, maybe I've been unfair. I know the idea of an afterlife etc is very deeply entrenched in our culture and that some people will take longer to come around to the idea of organ donation. But I think it's really important that people have a good think about why they feel the way they do and if there is any logic behind it instead of just shrugging and saying 'well that's just how I feel'. Because it really, really is a matter of life and death.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:40:24

maryz not entirely sure I get you but here goes

If it wa a case that you could not receive and organ unless you were a donor ten yes I would sign up

If it's a case that they may need a donor but there isn't enough ( I think this is what you mean) then no I still wouldn't sign up. In that scenario they need an organ so I wouldn't have to be prepare to donate theirs. Does that make sense?

Have I answered you question or got it wrong?

EauRouge Thu 14-Feb-13 13:42:02

In that scenario they need an organ so I wouldn't have to be prepare to donate theirs.

I don't understand this.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:42:38

eau sorry to clarify I'm not religious and dont believe in the afterlife if I'm honest. No problem with people who do tho although I do think religion is used as a cop out excuse for people who probably feel the same as me

TwllBach Thu 14-Feb-13 13:43:34

I remember ticking everything but my eyes when I applied for my driving license when I was 16.

If I'm being honest, I do still feel slightly squeamish about it, but I have just registered on the nhs list. I can't put my finger on why I feel unsettled about it - maybe it's because no one knows really what happens when you die?

Anyway, I sort of thought that because I'd ticked the box on my driving license that I didn't need to do anything else? But I've registered online now, just in case, and revised my "everything but the eyes" stance eight years later grin

Andro Thu 14-Feb-13 13:43:49

I can't get my head around why someone would deny a dying child something that could save them.

In the case of my ds, because I would not disrespect his wishes - despite my own opinions on the matter.
The decision would be hell for me though, because I am a supporter of organ donation. I am willing to impose my own beliefs on him for his own well being when necessary (behaviour, health, education etc until he's old enough to make those choices independently), but to impose my beliefs where his well being isn't the issue would be disrespectful to him imo.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:44:34

Sorry what I mean is not bein on the register is not going to affect whether it not we would get an organ of we needed one. Either one would be found or not depending in supply for want of a better word.

Is that any clearer? I'm not explaining this very well at all am I?

milbracat Thu 14-Feb-13 13:44:59

I'm on the donor register, but DH isn't. However, I don't want to give blood (I'm like you EasilyBored) but DH does regularly and his donation count is in the mid 40s.

I asked DH as to why he's not on the register and he says that if you're in Intensive Care and the doctors know that the second you are declared dead your body is going to be "broken up for spares" then they are not going to try TOO hard to keep you alive. He also objects to the twee and flippant wording on the donor cards themselves - all this "I would like to help someone to live after my death". Given what they are doing, he would rather see something like "I, <name here> authorise medically qualified personnel take the specified organs from my brain dead body for the purposes of transplantation to another individual". He is also against the idea of presumed consent as his organs are "his to give and not the State's to take".

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 14-Feb-13 13:45:24

I donate blood and am signed up to donate bone marrow and organs. I would donate organs of my dc too, the thought that they would be saving other lives would be very comforting to me I think. I tried to donate cord blood but it's not available in my area at the moment. As I'm pregnant just now I cannot give blood so asked DP to do it for me, it was his first time and he almost fainted but still went through with it bless him.

Wrt the 'I don't want an alcoholic to get it' argument; Mil's liver has just given up due to alcohol. She has been denied a transplant because she is an alcoholic.

EauRouge Thu 14-Feb-13 13:47:13

That's fair enough, Andro, no one should have their organs taken against their wishes.

Fairy- I'm not sure why religion is a cop out excuse whereas your's is OK confused I still don't understand your explanation, sorry.

HairyPotter Thu 14-Feb-13 13:48:21

I'm on the donation list, bone marrow register and give blood when I can. I struggle to understand why you wouldn't want to save a life where possible.

To say you would be happy to take an organ for you or an family member but refuse consent to use yours is selfish.

Fairy When you said you would sign up if this was the only way to receive an organ would you actually go through with it or would you withdraw consent once you had received an organ? I realise this is all hypothetical of course.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:51:13

I think it's a cop out because your hiding your true belief. Mine is not a popular opinion. But it is at least honest.

And hairy very probably I would withdraw consent yes if this was allowed cause I do t want to do it in the first place

HairyPotter Thu 14-Feb-13 13:52:56

I thought that would be the case sad

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:53:54

There is no need to be sad hairy I'm perfectly happy with my choices.

EasilyBored Thu 14-Feb-13 13:57:47

I find it utterly disgusting that you would allow your DC to receive an organ under the false pretence that you are willing to make a similar donation. You're a liar.

HeyHoHereWeGo Thu 14-Feb-13 13:58:36

If anything happened my DH or DC I would think of it as a gift, a blessing, if I were to donate their organs.
Please God it will never happen but if they die, yes yes yes to organ donation.
My family are not selfish they are giving, and if you are a giving sort, then donation feels natural and beautiful.
If you are a selfish person and happy to be so, well then yes, sit watching eastenders giving out that everyone in the world it out to get you and you know your rights!! nasty grubby little attitude.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 13:59:03

If I was forced into that choice then yes I would be a liar. Thankfully that is not the case so I can be honest about it

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:00:55

heyho I never said anything about watching eastenders and knowing my rights etc so if your comments are aimed at me I suggest you revise them.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 14:02:38

I'd donate if I could.

But I have a neurological illness that requires treatment with intravenous immunoglobulins (a blood product) once a month, so I can't give blood or donate bone marrow or organs (I was on all 3 registers before I got ill)

My dh is on the organ donor register and we talked several years ago about our dc - if any of them was lying on life support ready to be switched off, we would donate all the bits they could use, to stop anyone else going through that loss. It would be heartbreaking, but I think that donating their organs would help with grief. But I've never been bereaved tha way, so I can't say.

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 14:03:11

Thanks Wiley smile

Fairy - I am so glad that you are in the minority here because if everyone was like you I would be dead now! To be fair though, I guess at least you are saying it and there are probably other people who feel the same as you. I sincerely hope that you or any of your children ever need an organ transplant as it is not a good place to be.

I have had a DS since my transplant and he is the 3rd baby born to someone in the UK who has had my kind of transplant and 21st in the world. I was so worried about my donors mums' reaction to the news that I had had a baby as I thought she may be angry with me and think that I had put his organs at risk (I was told that I had a very good prognosis) but in fact she was overjoyed and told me that when her son died and she donated his organs, that the best she could hope was that another mother out there could see her child grow into adulthood (me) and she had never dreamed that new life may have been born as a result.

Andro Thu 14-Feb-13 14:04:49

FairyJen - I don't agree with your stance, but credit to you for having the guts to be so honest about your position on the matter.

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 14:05:40

Sorry that should have been 'never need a transplant'.

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 14-Feb-13 14:05:55

fairy you wouldn't be forced into the choice as you wouldn't have to accept an organ. You could refuse.

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 14-Feb-13 14:06:53

What a lovely story clucky.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:08:54

Thank you andro I know it is unpopular but I did want to give an honest answer to the op and I do think that many others share my feelings so wanted to portray an alternative reason to a medical or religious reason as to why people wouldn't donate but still accept

OverlyYappy Thu 14-Feb-13 14:09:26

We had a death in our family, a relatives fiancee, the relative didn't want her donate but she had her card so he respected her wishes.

6 months later he was forwarded the most beautiful letter from someone life she had saved, jesus christ I am welling up thinking about it now, it happened a few years back on Valentines Day.

I think everyone has a right to their view and I think many other possible feel like Fairy but just do not say tbh! I am unsure if any of my organs would be any good (smoke and abused body from 17-21) but I carry a card, I do however have something about my eyes not being used. That may change.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 14-Feb-13 14:09:39

I've once tried to donate blood and when they took my medical history, which included fainting, they said it was best if I did not give blood. I felt rather rejected as it was something I wanted to do.

I have just looked into the bone marrow register and you can only go on their register if you donate blood. So the bone marrow register doesn't want me either. sad

I haven't fainted for years so I don't really see it as a concern but they did. I may try to donate when I am no longer pregnant.

Also just looked into cord blood donation, as someone mentioned it above, but it is only hospitals around the London area who are experienced to do it. What a shame that placentas around the rest of the country are just thrown away when I would imagine many people would consent to having cord blood taken.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:10:18

*cathing obviously I would want my dc to get an organ if the alternative was death. When I say forced I mean that if the law stated you could only receive an organ if you were willing to donate. I would do anything to keep my dc alive

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 14:10:57

Thanks Catching smile I am so so lucky and fortunate that there are amazing people like most of those on here who can make such a brave and courageous decision at the most tragic of times.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 14:11:29

I think that (depending on when I needed it) I might well refuse an organ (unless they learn how to transplant damaged nerves).

I've got now, at 42, a 20 y life expectancy (we can expect my nerve deterioration to mean that in the end I can't move, then can't talk, then can't breathe). So now, I'd take a kidney, as it would let me see my dc of 9,11,13 into adulthood. Even in 10 years I might, to see my grandchildren. After that : I'd rather a younger person with a longer life expectancy got the help, as I'm going to die young anyway due to my illness (it's related to, but not the same as, multiple sclerosis).

Does no one think that there are many other people who have the same opinion as fairyjen but just dont admit it and give other reasons not to donate?

I am willing to donate my organs, my DH is not. He does give blood on a regular basis and is quite open about the fact that he has no intention of donating his organs but if he needed a transplant he would accept it.

Nothing I can do about that. It doesnt make him a horrible, selfish person IMO.

I think i would rather people were upfront and honest in their beliefs, not hiding behind an excuse.

Not everyone is going to feel the same way about this, are they?

Whether you think its right or wrong is irrelevant, it is individual choice.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:11:57

catching sorry

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 14:13:17

I'd have donated my child's organs had it been possible. She had had leukaemia so could not donate, but it would have been a comfort to know some part of her was still alive in someone else, and had allowed them to get the chance she did not.

Is it really true your family can refuse to donate your organs even if you're on the register? When I signed up 5 years ago the website said next of kin can't opt you out confused

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Thu 14-Feb-13 14:20:30

I am on the register and all my family are aware of it. My DH and DC are also all happy to donate.

It does seem very odd that people find it unpalatable to give organs but are happy to accept organs. It doesn't make sense.

i am on the donor register and don't care if one of my organs is given to (e.g.) an alcoholic. i would be dead, they would be alive and more in need of it than i would.

yes i would ideally like an organ to go to someone who's going to look after it (and who's to say an alcoholic wouldn't), but really, i'm not going to make judgements about who deserves them or not. it would be up to doctors after all

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:22:13

I think they can ria yes when my gmother died despite her being on the register drs still asked my mum if she was happy to go ahead with this having said that my grandmother did have dementia so not sure if this had an impact on them asking

Xiaoxiong Thu 14-Feb-13 14:22:37

I'm trying to figure out why I find this attitude of accepting a transplant but not being willing to donate so abhorrent.

Thinking it through, the definition of selfishness is "placing your own needs above those of others".

But if you've been put in the position where your organs can be donated, by definition there's no hope of life for you - so in fact, it's placing the pointless waste of your organs through burial or cremation above the needs of others to live.

That's even worse than being selfish, since you don't even have the need for those organs to keep you alive.

Thinking this through, I'm leaning towards registering for living kidney and liver transplant now as well as that's the logical extension of this line of reasoning. I'd have to talk to DH about that though as it would affect him.

PessaryPam Thu 14-Feb-13 14:23:26

Total fucking hypocrisy OP? Who knows, there are party givers and party attenders in the population, proud to be in the former category.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:29:22

Just because you are selfish in one aspect of your life does not mean you are selfish in all your decisions. Just wanted to point that out

Just checked the donor website:

"43. What will happen if my relatives object?
We know that in most cases families will agree to donation if they knew that was their loved one's wish. If the family, or those closest to the person who has died, object to the donation when the person who has died has given their explicit permission, either by telling relatives, close friends or clinical staff, or by carrying a donor card or registering their wishes on the NHS Organ Donor Register, healthcare professionals will discuss the matter sensitively with them. They will be encouraged to accept the dead person's wishes and it will be made clear that they do not have the legal right to veto or overrule those wishes. There may, nevertheless, be cases where it would be inappropriate for donation to go ahead."

So usually the family can't opt you out. I guess the exceptions are people without the capacity to give informed consent?

ReindeerBollocks Thu 14-Feb-13 14:31:50

I can't believe some posters are being told they are brave for voicing a selfish opinion. That's a liberal use of the word.

Personally I prefer to use that word about children and adults who battle horrendous medical treatments whilst on the list.

Unfortunately opinions are like arseholes and everyone has one.

It won't stop me thinking that those would refuse to give organs but would accept them are selfish hypocrites.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:33:00

Yes possibly ria she would not have been able to give consent in her later life so maybe that's when she signed up?? Anyhow the consent was given for her to donate.

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 14:34:08

Hi Reindeer (thread hijack!) - we met on one of these threads before smile I hope your DH and DS are doing ok at the moment x

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:36:04

So would you rather I fed you a load of bull reindeer? About how my entire family are signed up to be stripped of everything etc? Cause I actually think that would make me a bigger hypocrite

Samu2 Thu 14-Feb-13 14:38:19

I never understand people being unwilling to donate organs. You are dead, it's not like you are going to miss them. Why would anyone let them rot when they could save a life?

If it wasn't for donors my first three children from my first marriage would have lost their father. Every day we thank our lucky stars for the gift of donation.

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 14:39:02

It actually really upsets me - the thought that I or one of my beloved family might die and I make the decision to offer up their organs for transplant - for their organ to then go to someone with the attitude of Fairy

It almost puts me off doing it.

Sashapineapple Thu 14-Feb-13 14:39:41

I think it should be an opt out system. Family should never be able to override the wishes of the donor. Both me & DH are on the register and we have also made it clear to our families.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:40:29

Well your lucky you have the choice of donating or not then arnt you baby smile

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 14:42:51

Of course, anyone who can donate has the choice.

ReindeerBollocks Thu 14-Feb-13 14:43:39

Hi Clucky, how are you doing? DH and DS are doing well at the moment (makes a nice change).

Fairy - no I wouldn't want you to lie in order to appease people. However taking an organ but refusing to donate is a selfish hypocritical thing to do. I don't think you are brave for your opinion - I just think you have a nasty 'looking out for No 1' attitude. You may be saying what others are thinking but my opinion of anyone who holds this opinion would be equally low.

Btw if anyone wanted info on live donation feel free to PM me as having been through the process it isnt an easy decision to make.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 14:44:49

fairyjen I'm not arguing with you, but I'm wondering, given that you say there's no religious element to your though, why you would have such a need to have your dh or dc "whole" when you buried them.

Maybe I'm being obtuse - I really am trying to understand - but I find your reasoning hard to follow. Would being buried without a kidney (which still worked but was sadly no longer needed) mean that you felt they werent 'properly' buried? Do you understand that other people could take comfort in the fact that life could go on for someone else through your tragic loss?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory (I'm medically barred from donating) but I would like to better understand your view?

OverlyYappy Thu 14-Feb-13 14:45:06

The OP asked for answers, Fairy is giving an honest answer, I do not know her well but she is not selfish, you cannot make that assumption based on one thing she feels strongly about.

Many people do not donate, I doubt very much Fairyjen is the only person, perhaps she is the only person with the balls to say so though

Thats not really in the spirit of giving, is it baby

I thought the whole point of this was you were pleased to donate to anyone and be happy about it?

I couldnt care less who gets mine, as long as they need them, isnt it pretty awful to say you wouldnt want to give your organs to someone because they disagree with your values.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 14:50:09

Bless you yaps

When I say whole I mean I would hate them to be cut open have everything removed, stuffed with god knows what and then buried. Entirely dependant on cause of death- but I would like them to be intact and un violated

I'm on the register for the lot and am considering donating myself to medical science when I die.

DH isn't registered for the same reasons as milbracat's DH but has asked me to consent to donation if the case ever arises.

Andro Thu 14-Feb-13 14:50:55

Samu2 - sometimes it can be a simple as a bad impression being given! Ds holds the opinion he does because of what he witnessed when close family were potential donors, he describes the people involved in the consent and harvest preparation as acting like scavengers in a feeding frenzy (he saw and heard a lot more than he ought to have given how young he was). He thought that there was no respect shown and he doesn't want that for himself.

No amount of explanation has impacted his views at the moment, but he is still very young.

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 14:51:20

Hi Reindeer, I am really well thanks and I am really glad to hear that your DH and DS are doing ok. I had quite a lot of illness last year and had suspected lymphoma but thank god it wasn't that and all fine now. It is my 6 year anniversary since my transplant in a few weeks' time, it isn't something I really 'celebrate' as I am very aware that for my donors mum it is another year passed without her son but I am very pleased to be getting closer to the 10 year milestone x

Binkybix Thu 14-Feb-13 14:53:47

"I am willing to donate my organs, my DH is not. He does give blood on a regular basis and is quite open about the fact that he has no intention of donating his organs but if he needed a transplant he would accept it.

Nothing I can do about that. It doesnt make him a horrible, selfish person IMO."

I just don't agree with this. Smacks of a horrible, selfish person to me. In this respect at least.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 14:54:56

fairyjen I see what you say (though I'm not sure anyone is "stuffed".

I see you wouldn't like it. I'm wondering WHY you wouldn't like it, given that they have no use for their organs any more? Do you put a value for that person on a kidney, a heart, a liver, a cornea?

I'm trying to understand, but I'm not understanding WHY you object?

Xiaoxiong Thu 14-Feb-13 14:56:57

BabyRoger I agree. At least if you're a Jehovah's Witness or something you wouldn't donate or accept which is a coherent position. The idea that you would accept but wouldn't donate is logically inconsistent and worse than selfish because by that point the donor doesn't need those organs.

binky well all I can say is well done on being able to judge my DH as selfish so well based on a few words.
The fact I have known him for 16 years is clearly irelevant then isn't it.

Like I said, he is not a horrible selfish person

You may have you opinion on the decision he made regarding organ donation. Just as he would defend his right to make that decision.

You cannot actually,in all honesty, judge his entire character based on that.

It is a decision. You may feel very strongly about it, and I happen to agree that organ donation is vital. But that doesn't take away the fact that it is a choice. And just because someone chooses not to donate, it doesn't make them a horrible person.

Not just based on that one decision.

ReindeerBollocks Thu 14-Feb-13 15:02:58

Oh Clucky, I know what you mean, it must feel very bittersweet.

We have our two year anniversary coming up soon too. Feels very strange but great. However DH's mum had a failed kidney transplant last year, and unfortunately died so we are still a bit raw at the moment.

Thank you for asking, I hope your DS is well too (he was a tiny baby when we last 'spoke') x

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 15:03:24

Tantrums I am on the register and the bone marrow and I regularly donate blood. If I die and can donate my organs then I will. I think I do have the spirit of giving.

I said attitudes like Fairy's almost put me off. I find it upsetting that people would be more than willing to accept and organ but would never donate one. I find it selfish and hypocritical. The fact that I would donate to them but they would not donate to me - I find that awful. I don't think that is about me not liking their values in the slightest. It is that I find it upsetting that I would make a sacrifice for them that they would not be willing to make back for me.

I am not bothered who my organs go to in terms of liver to someone who has been an alcoholic etc but the attitude of I want that but I would never be willing to do the same for you really puts me off. Not saying I wouldn't give it to them, though since I am a nice person and not selfish. smile If you think my opinion on it is awful - oh well.

Bluegrass Thu 14-Feb-13 15:03:41

I thought our bodies were pretty much likely to be cut up, pumped full of things etc anyway buy an undertaker?

We all rot or burn in the end but if you can rescue some parts from the crematorium or from the intestinal bacteria which will ultimately consume you and use those parts to help someone else to live - how fantastic is that!

baby the thing is, the spirit of giving is unselfish isnt it?
So therefore its highly irrelevant if the receiver would do the same for you or your family. You are doing it because you think it is the right thing to do. You are doing it to help someone in need. Thats why people agree to organ donation.

Thats why I say it isnt in the spirit of giving.

And of course it about you not liking their values.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 15:08:42

I say stuffed as surely the cavity left would collapse in wouldn't it??

Binkybix Thu 14-Feb-13 15:11:34

Tantrums. I know that's why I said 'at least in this respect.'

It still doesnt make him a horrible selfish person in any respect.

It makes him a person who made a decision that you disagree with. Thats all.

Xiaoxiong Thu 14-Feb-13 15:15:56

Yes Fairy you may wish to read up on what undertakers do to dead bodies if you think your loved one will be whole and untampered with.

sayanything Thu 14-Feb-13 15:16:44

I'm glad we have an opt-out system where I currently live (Belgium). It means I don't have to worry about registers and cards and that the likelihood of organs being found should my DC need them and of something good coming out of my death is higher. It's a no-brainer to me, really. If you have strong feelings against donation, then you are likely to take the necessary steps to opt-out. The benefit of organ donation to those who need a transplant is such that the default position should be donation, not the other way around.

I used to be a regular blood donor and I was on the bone marrow register when I lived in the UK, but they want none of it here due to the mad cow crisis sad. I don't know if that also means that I can't donate organs, I'd better have a look.

Binkybix Thu 14-Feb-13 15:18:41

People judge what people are like based on the decisions they make and how they act. All I know about your husband is this, and I think he has a very selfish stance on it. That's why I think he is selfish person, in this respect. Others won't, of course.

Obviously I would not normally just say this to someone apropos of nothing, but this is a discussion about this very topic.

However, horrible was probably too far, and I'm sorry for that. I'd defend mine in the same way too, even if I didn't agree with him.

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 15:18:53

Of course I would be doing it to help people in need - that is why I give blood and am on the registers.

I do not believe that you give up all opinion and accept happily that your organs would go to someone with that attitude. Clearly, from this thread lots of people disagree with the attitude of 'I would take an organ but I would never give one'

I will have no say in who will get my organs (if anyone ever does) and I think that is a good thing. There should be no picking and choosing BUT I reserve the right to think the 'I will look after number 1' attitude stinks and would I prefer it went to someone without the selfishness? Yes. But, it is a moot point. I just cannot stand hypocrisy and selfishness like this.

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 15:20:10

Oh Reindeer I am so sorry to hear about your DH mum sad

Well done on the 2 year anniversary!

He is really good thanks - he is 2 now! Have been thinking about whether to try for another DC...x

Sashapineapple Thu 14-Feb-13 15:20:17

Tantrum, if your DH is willing to recieve but not willing to donate then yes, in this instance he is being selfish. It doesn't make him a horrible person and there is no judgement on his character as a whole, I'm sure he's very nice, but regarding donation he is selfish.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 14-Feb-13 15:21:37

Tantrum - refusing to give the gift of life when you are willing to accept the gift of life does smack of being pretty selfish. I'm sure he isn't a selfish person, an individual act does not make a person, but it is a selfish act.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 14-Feb-13 15:22:09

X-post Sasha. Great minds.....

Xiaoxiong Thu 14-Feb-13 15:22:17

Tantrums I think Baby was trying to express just how distasteful she found fairy's attitude that it was almost enough to put off donating in case someone as selfish as that got her organ.

Not saying she would want to pick and choose who got her organs because she disagreed with their values.

Sashapineapple Thu 14-Feb-13 15:22:34

*receive

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 15:25:15

Thanks Xiao definitely not saying I would pick and choose! I just do not like the attitude and I find it upsetting that people would happily take organs but never donate them.

Yep, maybe it is a selfish decision.

FWIW I disagree with it. But Its not up to me to tell him what he can and cannot do.
I am more than willing to be an organ donor myself and willing to donate my dcs organs if we were in that position.

I dont care if the person who gets them is on the register or not. I am not doing it so that someone will do it for my family. I am doing it because IMO its the right thing to do.

But I dont judge people who do not choose to do the same.

Domjolly Thu 14-Feb-13 15:25:47

I think because is very emotive i married to a nurse and i think even he would struggle with allowing somone to take our sons eyes he know how important

But when you just lost somone your in a state of grief they might of died in hurrodous circumstances

I can see its a big as espically if its a child

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 15:25:59

Fairy, does it not occur to you that the fact that so many people die while waiting for organs is simply because many people are selfish like you are.

And saying "at least I'm honest" wouldn't make you feel any better if (God forbid) one of your children needed an organ and there weren't enough.

You could look happily at the selfish people all around you (as your child died) and say "at least they are honest.

I know this is harsh - but it's true. If everyone who could donate did so, then there would be many fewer dying while waiting sad.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 15:26:46

fairy most bodies are clothed so you can't see what has happened, so I'm not sure there's a need for stuffing? Still dont understand why that matters so much to you, but perhaps I never will.

You do know that if a post-mortem is required, the brain will be removed, examined, and then stitched into the abdomen rather than replaced in the skull? Because it's not working any more, so it doesn't matter!

Unless you are buried within 2 days, blood will be drained and an embalming fluid inserted instead.

Pretty much no one is buried in an untampered condition.

I know what baby was saying, its just to me, if you are going to do something you honestly believe is good and helpful and correct, what other people choose shouldnt matter.

You can find a decsion to be IYO distasteful or wrong or selfish but it should have no impact on what you do IYSWIM

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 15:29:06

See, Tantrums, you are a better person than I am.

I do judge people who would refuse to save a life.

And I judge them even more if they are prepared to be saved themselves. I would, however, have respect for someone who felt that organ donation was wrong full stop. As long as they felt so strongly that they would refuse a donation not only for themselves but for their child.

Otherwise they are saying "my opinions are more important than your child's life, but they are not more important than my child's life", which is immoral and just plain wrong angry.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 14-Feb-13 15:30:15

I didn't know that Weegiesmum - why the hell don't they just put it back where it was meant to be, even though it's not going to be of use confused

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 15:31:47

I think it is very emotive. My mum died and may have been saved with a liver transplant (she was not an alcoholic, it was cancer). Clearly, people have the right not to be on the register and not to donate.

TBH before this thread I have never ever heard anyone say that they would accept an organ but would never donate. Perhaps I am just shocked or maybe naive

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 15:31:58

'Entirely dependant on cause of death- but I would like them to be intact and un violated '

Hope they never need a post mortem then. hmm

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 15:33:27

Tantrums my judgement of such attitudes is not impacting on what I am doing. I never said I wouldn't do it. I find it distasteful but I would never not donate because of my opinion.

I see what you are saying MaryZ

But I would donate my organs to anyone, even though if my dcs needed it, they would not reciprocate.

I dont do if for that reason. I do it because I would help anyone if I could. I am on the bone marrow register. I have never been matched but id do it without a second thought if I was.
Because I think its the right thing to do.

I cant judge people who make choices that are different to mine. Because it is just that, their choice.
I can disagree with the reasoning behind it and make different choices myself but I would let someone elses decision put me off doing what I think I need to do.

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 15:34:34

'I didn't know that Weegiesmum - why the hell don't they just put it back where it was meant to be, even though it's not going to be of use'

Sometimes they must retain the brain and/or other organs. You bury them with your loved one later on. Your loved one is dead, they are not coming back and their body does not go with them.

Personally, I don't think adults should be able to accept an organ without being a registered donor themselves and favour an opt-out policy, so those who opt out can be excluded from any transplant list should they need an organ.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 15:34:42

BabyRoger, if you think about it, have you ever met anyone who has said they would refuse to accept an organ if they needed one? Because I never have.

But I know a lot of people who wouldn't donate. So there must be many people like Fairy sad.

Binkybix Thu 14-Feb-13 15:35:26

I'm not suggesting you should tell him what to do.

I also would not want moral requirements put on recipients, and agree with Roger that it's a good thing donors don't get to choose. That doesn't stop me thinking that I'd prefer someone who was wasn't so selfish about this to get an organ.

Xiaoxiong Thu 14-Feb-13 15:35:33

I was particularly struck by the fact that when a dead body is prepared for burial, among other things, the cadaver is cut open so all organs are removed from the body and soaked in embalming fluid.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 15:36:43

I don't judge people whose opinions are different to mine - that's why I'm fine with anyone disagreeing with organ donation.

I have trouble with people disagreeing with organ donation when they are donating, but agreeing with it if they are the recipient though.

It's like people who support laws, but think they don't apply to them.

It's an advanced form of reverse NIMBYism, if that makes sense?

baby then I apologise, but your post read as if you were almost "put off" donating in case someone who didnt choose to donate got your organs.

And tbh I try very hard not to judge anyone based on one decision that I have a different opinion about. I find it doesnt help at all. It is upsetting. And it takes away from the unselfishness of giving IMVHO

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 15:37:41

I know Maryz I suppose I have just never thought about it before. sad

I have been awakened to such attitudes!

Domjolly Thu 14-Feb-13 15:37:44

I do think they should have a op out system

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 15:39:20

Sorry to go on Tantrums, I'm trying to put this simply:

I would struggle to talk to your dh about this because his opinion would meant that if my child died in an accident, he would accept one of their organs to save his child, but that if his child died he would refuse to give their organs to save mine.

Does that simplify why I find this so wrong?

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 15:39:55

Tantrums I did say that, I suppose I worded it wrongly. That is not really what I meant. I would never not do it because of this. I think I have just been shocked about such an emotive subject for me.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 15:40:07

It means he thinks his children are worth saving, but mine aren't?

Caladria Thu 14-Feb-13 15:40:29

I'm always puzzled when people say can't bear the thought of a loved person's body being mutilated after death. Corpses get eaten if they don't get burnt.

Binkybix Thu 14-Feb-13 15:40:31

YYY to everything Maryz has said.

SucksToBeMe Thu 14-Feb-13 15:42:30

I am in the organ doner list,as are DS and DD. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't. Breaks my heart that so many lose their lives waiting for something that we won't need.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 14-Feb-13 15:44:06

Expat - I am fully aware the loved one is dead and the body does not go 'up' with them - please don't patronise me. If you had read the earlier posts, you would see that I fully support organ donation.

I was responding to the poster who said that the brain is sewn back into the abdomen after a PM - it just seemed somewhat strange that if it is going back into the body, why on earth not just put in back in the head. Maybe the pathologist was never taught to put things back where they got them from grin

Xiaoxiong Thu 14-Feb-13 15:44:15

Tantrums I find it depends entirely on the one decision and the magnitude of selfishness in my personal scale.

I think the decision to accept but not to donate is a particularly selfish one that would colour my view of that person's whole character. Everything else they did would have to be pretty damn selfless to outweigh it in my mind.

Yes it makes sense MaryZ it does.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 14-Feb-13 15:45:02

Sorry, I misread, you did not say 'up'

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 15:46:21

Right so theyay be cut up and all that but they would still be crated with all their body parts. And its not a case of saying my dc are worth more than others it's just a desire that they go with all their organs etc.

In terms of living donation of my dc or dp needed a kidney or something I would give them it in a heart beat

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 15:47:38

*cremated not crated sorry on phone

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 15:48:31

So better burned than saving somebody else's life. I think that is an unforgivable attitude.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 15:49:09

I hope I didn't upset anyone by talking about pm's, but my dh trained in a very remote island area where pm's were carried out by local GPs who were police surgeons also and he assisted at several during his training.

A deceased body can be hard to manipulate and it is easier for the doctor and more dignified for tha patient not to try to re-insert a brain that swells after being removed from the skull.

I've got a friend younger than me who has had a kidney transplant - she will now see her dc grow up without her having to dialyse 3x/week. There's a slim chance in the future that a stem cell transplant might cure my condition. We feel very very grateful to blood donors as the treatment I get once a month comes from 30 different donors. I gave blood every 6 months until I was diagnosed - dh still does - my 13yo is desperate to! We've talked over organ donation wit them and they are, as of now, happy with it though clearly we will readress this as they get older.

On this thread, as far as I Can see, noone has given anything but the eww/yuk factor as a reason not to donate. I still don't understand why.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 15:49:14

Fwiw my dc may want to donate when older they are only 5 and 8 months at the moment so don't even know donation exists

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 15:49:42

No Fairy - I think it is a case of you saying your children being buried with all their body parts is more important than my child surviving.

Whereas if my child had died and yours needed the organ, by accepting it you would be saying that your child's life is more important than my child being buried with all his/her body parts.

You are saying your child is of greater importance than mine. Either being buried "complete" is important or it is not. For everyone.

And when I see people like expat on threads like this I rapidly lose the very little sympathy I had for your position, sorry angry.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 15:56:20

Well maryz I'm sorry you feel that way although I am entitled to my feelings and opinion te same as everyone else.

It's great you feel able to give away parts of your child should the need arrive however I dont feel able ad I don't feel guilty about that in the slightest it my personal choice that's all. As I said when they are older out dc may have different wishes to me and dp that will be up to them

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 16:00:48

You are of course entitled to be selfish if you so wish.

I am entitled to dislike your attitude intensely and have no sympathy for it whatsoever.

If you don't want to "give away parts of your child", then don't let anyone else do the same.

Just as a matter of interest, if your child received a heart, for example, what would you do with the old one? Keep it in your freezer, so that when they eventually died they could have it cremated with them. Or would you be happy to separate them from a body part if you got them a better one?

Binkybix Thu 14-Feb-13 16:01:50

Although I get (although can't empathise) with the fact you don't feel able to grant permission for your DPs organs to be used, it amazes me that you don't feel guilty about it either.

You don't feel guilty that you would rather a child died, to allow your to child keep all their organs when they were dead?

MaryZ I've had this conversation with DH but I have to accept that people will choose to do what feels right to them.

I can't change the way people think and tbh I don't think it's necessarily my place to tell people what they believe is wrong.

I don't think it makes them bad people, just different.

I believe in what I am doing, and that's important to me.
Which is why I do it.

And if I were ever in the position of having to decide if my DCs organs were donated, I would agree to it and DH knows that.

But I honestly can't judge a persons entire character based on what I think is right.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 16:05:44

I don't know maryz if I am ever god forbid in that position I will let you know what I decided. My dp shares my wishes so as I said it would be a moot point anyway as even if I was in favour my beliefs are not more important than his they are equal I don't know what we would do in that scenario

HairyPotter Thu 14-Feb-13 16:12:22

You don't feel guilty in the slightest? Bloody hell, that really is selfish.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 16:14:05

No I don't feel guilty at all it's my opinion why should I? If I felt guilty then I would donate hmm

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 16:15:53

.............get the message.......... 13 pages later......... please some new opinions not the same one back and forth with the same few.........
More cheers needed for the people who had never got round to it and now are planning too.!!!!

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 16:17:14

So do you save all your child's teeth to be buried with them? An appendix? Tonsils? Or is it that you don't want anyone else to have them- you were rather they were burnt than save another child's life? If your child had a kidney transplant would you keep the old one?

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 16:19:58

maryz already asked a similar question seeker if you want to debate it at least read the whole thread

And dd hasn't lost any teeth yet although one is hanging I by a thread...

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 16:41:01

She has answered seeker. She doesn't give a shiny shite about saving other children's lives, and she doesn't feel one bit guilty about it.

Personally I find that level of selfishness hard to fathom, but hey-ho, as long as she is happy in her own little world hmm.

Tantrums it must be difficult - I suspect it is a subject you avoid, as I certainly would if that was dh's opinion. At least I'd try to avoid it, as the alternative would be to get a bit, erm, ranty grin

Exactly. We don't really discuss it.

Tbh I hope that he will change his mind.
The teenagers share my opinion as well, so you never know, he may change his mind of his own accord.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 16:45:19

I do give a shiny shite as you put it maryz and contribute onother ways to try an save children's lives its actually part of my job!

However I would not at this point use my children to do it and my dp doesn't want to donate. Tbf I don't think anyone can answer 100% until they are put in that position you can't say what you will feel at the time.

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 14-Feb-13 16:49:29

"my opinions are more important than your child's life, but they are not more important than my child's life" - maryz

I've never thought about the 'I'll take but not give' attitude to organ donation like that before, but I think that yes this statement sadly is quite accurate. My aunt won't give blood but she would also refuse it for her and her children too (she is on the organ donar register though). I think this attitude should be extended to organ donation, if you would rather an organ rot away or be burned than it go to someone to save their life then you shouldn't accept an organ either.

givemushypeasachance Thu 14-Feb-13 16:50:43

Anyone can do what they want with my organs; better they be put to good use than just left to rot/burnt/etc. If I don't die in the right way to keep them useable then I'm happy to have my body disected or used for research as well.

To those (very) few who consider that their body (or their loved ones' bodies) 'going' (^where^?) 'complete' is more important than other people's lives being saved; I don't understand you at all. Even accepting the perspective that 'going whole' is a nice thing, I can't see how you can possibly hold that opinion as being so strong and vital a thing that it outweighs someone's life being saved by those same organs you are throwing out.

ariane5 Thu 14-Feb-13 16:51:40

I find it hard to think about, I know myself I would donate/receive but when it comes to dcs I just don't know,I know if they were ill I would be desperate for them to get an organ if they needed one.

Then I think about ds1 and how he cries for the babies in the oxfam advert and the little boy in the wateraid ad and I know he would want to help another child any way he could,so,if the worst ever happened to any of the dcs I think I would do it but I really hate thinking about such a situation.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 17:01:32

I'd love non donors to meet my poor boy. He has been unable to enjoy his young years and gets tired like an old person. He can't eat what he likes and takes bags of drugs every day. He still insists on working full time despite his work not being very understanding and has frequent hospital visits for which they don't pay him therefore has not had a full wage for years. He gets incredibly depressed at his situation which is understandable.
Yet he is the kindest most lovely guy you could ever meet. He actually told his brothers to only be tested if they really wanted to donate.
He talks about how bitter sweet it willl be for him if he gets a kidney as he knows someone will have died.
He's just one if many who is depending on someone else's kindness so that he can live his life.
This attitude really saddens me.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 17:05:48

You are getting a bit defensive there Fairy?

Maybe you do feel just a tad guilty after all.

You wouldn't be using your children, they would be dead hmm. As would the child that your child could have saved.

I know I am being very emotive about it, but I cannot understand how any civilised adult can have your attitude and think that it is justified. I just cannot accept it.

PeoniesPlease Thu 14-Feb-13 17:05:49

I actually think it is one of those things which it is impossible to be absolutely sure what you would do if you were faced with the situation. Thankfully, it remains hypothetical for most people.

My concerns about heart-beating organ donation are more practical. I have read in a couple of places that the donor sometimes shrinks away from the scalpel, or reacts to the harvesting of organs with high blood pressure/heart rate. This suggests that the donor can feel pain - I certainly wouldn't want my loved ones to experience pain like this in their last moments.

The NHS organ donor website doesn't really tackle this question at all, which makes me think there is somthing to it. If we are going to ask people to donate organs, then we need to be completely honest about what it entails, and I'm not sure that we have that at the moment.

This article from the Wall Street Journal outlines some of my concerns - although I think it is a bit sensational and obviously the financial stuff doesn't apply in the UK (thank you NHS!)

PeoniesPlease Thu 14-Feb-13 17:06:45

Practical, rather than religious/spiritual iyswim?

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 17:11:48

maryz Definately don't feel guilty however it's a bit of a stretch for you to say because I wouldnt donate organs that I do t give a shiny shite about other children's lives as this simply isn't true and I evidence this in my everyday life.

I am a civilised adult and I'm not askin you to accept my opinion. The op asked a question and I have an answer it really is that simple. I don't go through life feeling guilty I never have. If something will make you feel guilty then it's the wrong decision IMHO.

I'm more than happy for you to be emotive to give your pov as it is not going to make the slightest bit of difference to my pov.

Clearly I am not the only person who holds this view otherwise less people would die from needing transplants ( discounting this who can't donate for medical reasons obviously )

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 17:14:47

You see, I don't agree with you there.

You don't care about the children on the organ donation register. If you did, you would register to donate.

I have no idea how you could read threads on here by people like expat and mrsdevere, and posts like ledkr's, and not agree to donate.

I know you think I am getting at you personally, but I am doing that because you are justifying what I think is unacceptable. If anyone else came onto this thread with your views, I would argue with them too.

It is a subject I feel very strongly about - and working with children, or helping children in your life, or living a good life or whatever doesn't in any way justify refusing to help someone after your death, just because you don't want to.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 14-Feb-13 17:18:41

Fairy, the fact that your job involves trying to save children's lives somehow makes it seem worse that you will not donate yours or your children's organs when they are no longer of any use to you, in order to save the life of a desperately ill child/person.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 17:20:11

maryz I know it's not personal and I'm not aiming anything at you either so you know I'm merely responding. I do feel for others on this thread I genuinely do however that doesn't mean I can't hold a differing point of view ad want to stick by it.

Maybe when I'm older my feelings will change I really don't know I can only express how I feel now.

Fwiw I am a nice person an in everyday life am very selfless and I do work hard to protect children etc I do not see the two issues as mutually exclusive.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 17:21:27

dreaming not sure why you see it that way but if that's your opinion fair enough

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 17:26:18

One of the things that makes me feel uncomfortable with organ donation is that time in between 'death' and the donors machines actually being switched off permanently. I don't like the idea of being in limbo between life and death, and that time is what makes me feel like I wouldn't want DHs organs to be donated. I don't like the thought of what happens to bodies between death and burial/cremation.

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 17:30:04

' I don't like the thought of what happens to bodies between death and burial/cremation.'

Then I hope you nor your DH need a post mortem, and it is not an option in many cases, it is required to get a death cert and especially for cremation. If you wish to be cremated you have to have have two separate forms completed by two different doctors and the cause of death must be completely obvious.

Even in the case of suicide with notes, the body is not released right away.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 17:30:44

But if you suffer a trauma to the head (which is where most donated organs come from) you will be in limbo anyway.

They will always keep you on a life-support machine until they have done a series of brain-stem tests - so your body is being kept "alive" while those tests are carried out, but you are effectively dead (brain-dead) anyway.

Unless of course you refuse hospital treatment, life support machines etc that argument makes no sense to me confused.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 17:34:56

Yes, but those things are unavoidable. There is no choice in the matter, and those are already quite tragic circumstances to die in. Surely the majority of us would, if we could, choose a peaceful, uncomplicated death where we just went to bed and never woke up?

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 17:37:28

And you're not in limbo, you are dead, only the machines keep breathing for you.

I thought like you did (although I've always been on the register to donate), but having seen it myself, death is in seconds after those machines are turned off. You never, ever breathe again, because you are dead.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 14-Feb-13 17:42:53

Surely the majority of us would, if we could, choose a peaceful, uncomplicated death where we just went to bed and never woke up?.

I'm sure we would, but I can't see what that's got to do with anything.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 17:50:35

I actually thought that any unattended death meant you needed a post mortem anyway. Have I got that wrong?

DameSaggarmakersbottomknocker Thu 14-Feb-13 17:54:22

This thread has been going for almost 24 hours

In that time 3 people have died waiting for organs. It could be your child this time next year. An yes it's emotive but I can tell you this, being told your child needs a transplant is about as emotive as it gets.

And whilst we're on the subject 96% of us rely on the other 4% to give blood. Now I get that there are plenty of people who can't give blood but just 4 out of 100 people donate. That's really pretty crap isn't it?

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 17:59:10

Pretty much no-one who has a peaceful uncomplicated death can donate organs. Yes you can donate other body parts, but not major life-saving organs.

Donors for that come from tragic accidents, usually car crashes and the like where the person is dead (but on a life support machine) anyway.

expat, I'm sorry sad.

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 18:03:59

fairy my mum.died at home from cancer and there was no post mortem. It was just us there and a Marie curie care assistant.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 18:07:55

If you are not registering for donation because you are scared of the procedure (I was) then take the time to discuss it with someone at least.
And it is fairly crass to say that you would accept an organ from someone but not donate yourself. Very crass actually. So you are frightened it will be painful when they take the organs but you are happy for another person to experience that? Really?

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 18:10:39

I realise that post mortems often have to be done, but by the time that happens, your body hasn't been breathing for a significant amount of time.

I think if the worst happened to my family, I'd want to be there after tests had been done and as machines were being switched off. I wouldn't want my loved ones to fully die when they were in an operating theatre and the main concern was for getting their organs out of them.

I realise this makes me selfish to some people. I can live with that thought much more easily than I can live with the thought of being kept alive when I should be dead, or with the thought of that happening to someone I love while I wait outside.

Andro Thu 14-Feb-13 18:12:36

Maryz - spot on about the accidents - DH had to give consent for his dsis to be an organ donor. I have to admit, having stood by DH throughout that process, I questioned my own beliefs about organ donation - and came close to changing my wishes.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 18:15:21

So you are frightened it will be painful when they take the organs but you are happy for another person to experience that? Really?

No. You are projecting. I never said anything about it being painful, and I don't think anyone else who feels the way I do has either. Might have missed it though, it's a long thread.

I take the point that its worth discussion with someone who knows, so anyone here who knows is welcome to try and make me feel better about it. I'm open to having my mind changed, but being called a selfish hypocrite for things that seem to me like natural and reasonable fears really isn't going to make that happen.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 18:17:10

I think you put it a lot better than I did clouds

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 18:17:43

When ds went on the waiting list he had to sign to say if he would accept a donor either from a deceased person or one on life support. Maybe there should be a similar policy for donors.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 18:18:20

baby by unattended I meant when person is completely alone ect with no known illness but like I said I could be completely wrong

tiggytape Thu 14-Feb-13 18:18:57

I wouldn't want my loved ones to fully die when they were in an operating theatre and the main concern was for getting their organs out of them.

But you don't 'fully die' in the operating theatre. You are fully dead already. Yes the machine is pumping the heart / lungs up and down but you aren't alive at all. It is just the machine making the muscles move.
A bit like if the Dr grabbed a dead person's hand and waved it around (which wouldn't be terribly respectful of course). Yes that person's hand would be waving but they'd still be fully dead. An extrenal force making your dead muscles move against their will is not the same as being not 'fully dead'

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 18:18:58

Not sure if this will help allay any fears if you have a doubt about the process but..

"!Organs are only removed for transplantation after a person has died. Death is confirmed by doctors at consultant level who are entirely independent of the transplant team. Death is confirmed in exactly the same way for people who donate organs as for those who do not."

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 18:21:19

'I realise that post mortems often have to be done, but by the time that happens, your body hasn't been breathing for a significant amount of time.'

Not true at all. If you fall ill and are taken to hospital and die quickly, there will often be postmortem to determine cause of death.

My niece fell ill suddenly at home, age 39. It was evening, the paramedics came in minutes and she went into cardiac arrest whilst they were there.

She did not recover, but had to have post mortem due to their not knowing what caused her to collapse (cause was determined to be myocardial infarction/hear attack/coronary artery disease).

There are several of us even here, in the bereavement section, whose children suddenly fell ill and the child died in hospital. Post mortem was required to determine exact cause of death.

My child did not require post mortem, but her cause of death was very obvious, she had been in ICU for nearly a fortnight before her death suffering from pneumonia and had been through stem cell transplant for treatment of leukaemia.

Still, after she died, we were given a form to register her death and another, and on reading them, I realised that if there is even a lick of conjecture, a post mortem is required.

EauRouge Thu 14-Feb-13 18:23:51

I think the fear is there because you can't imagine what it would be like being dead. I recently had an op and had GA- I had absolutely no awareness of what was going on, no dreams, no sensations of what the surgeons were doing. I imagine death would be something like that so I honestly have no fear of what happens to me. I hope that my organs will go to help someone else and that my brain is useful to the research scientists at Parkinsons UK.

Aside from that I just hope that my body is disposed of in some way that will help the environment (quite fancy a tree instead of a headstone) and that the people I've left behind have a bloody good knees-up in my memory.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 18:27:26

Clouds you aren't a hypocrite for not wanting to donate organs because you are concerned about the procedure.

But of course, if you are concerned about the procedure you wouldn't want other people to donate either, would you? And therefore you surely wouldn't accept one.

renaldo Thu 14-Feb-13 18:27:57

I feel so strongly about this .my darling brother died in a terrible accident in another country.,we flow over, knowing he was brain dead, though he looked perfect lying in ITU on a ventilator. It was a difficult decision to donate everything and watch him being wheeled away, still'alive ' to be harvested. Harder still when I wentback to work , meeting patients who had had a donor organ which might have been his.
But My DH has had a bone marrow transplant which saved his life, and my other brother has had corneal transplants. I am eternally gratefully to the selfless familes and wonderful NHS who made this possible for free.
And those of you who won't carry a donor card
Shame on you - I hope you never have to experience what I and my family went through.

jeee Thu 14-Feb-13 18:28:29

My sister was on a transplant ward on and off for the best part of a decade. One person she met had had both a liver transplant and a kidney transplant. She and her family were not on the donor register because they didn't like the idea. They felt it was a bit 'yuck'.

On the other side, when transplants were something that happened to other people, my sister was on the register. And before she was on the register she'd been very clear that she wanted her body to be useful after her death. She believed that this helped her to feel comfortable with the idea of a transplanted organ.

xkittyx Thu 14-Feb-13 18:29:10

This thread has been an eye-opener. I can't believe there are people that would happily accept a donated organ, yet still somehow deem that if it's their loved one, then a dead person's liver or kidney, destined to burn or rot, is more important than a living, breathing, hopeful human being and all the people who love them.
No excuse for such selfishness.

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 18:30:18

Can I ask Fairy - what would you think of me now that I have had my transplant saying 'well it's good that I am alive now but there is no way if something happened to DH or DS I would consent to giving their organs to save someone else?'. I am not asking this to goad and I hardly ever post never mind in aibu but I am just trying to get you to try and see it in a different way.

Ledkr - I really hope your DS gets a kidney soon, kidney failure is awful not least if you have an unsympathetic employer.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 18:31:37

Thank you for trying!

I don't really see it as the same as a doctor waving a deceased persons hand around though, as people can live without hands.

I guess maybe a difference in my head is that while I understand that after brain death, a person is dead, if their body is still going, they just aren't completely dead.

People are a body and a soul in my mind. That person isn't completely gone until both parts are finished. The soul being gone but not the body doesn't mean to me that the whole person is gone.

Death might be confirmed by medical professionals in the same way for people who donate and people who don't, but medical science isn't the be all and end all to me. Especially because I think medical science could solve all of these problems by putting more money, time and effort into stem cell treatments.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 18:31:39

clouds don't play amateur psychologist and tell me I am projecting thank you. I have lived with my sons illness and my own for many years and am truly beyond needing to project anything so don't patronise me after reading a few lines of dialogue.
I was trying to be understanding if people's reasons for being fearfull and somebody earlier said about "donors shrink from the scalpel and blood pressure elevates as organs are removed"
You are very defensive for someone who is so comfortable with their decision.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 18:37:57

So you are frightened it will be painful when they take the organs but you are happy for another person to experience that? Really?

That is projecting, because you came across as if you were trying to tell me that I'm frightened it will be painful. I'm not frightened it will be painful at all, the thought of pain hadn't even crossed my mind until you said it. You are assuming that is something I have thought of, and you are wrong.

You also say I'm someone who is 'so comfortable with their decision'. I'm not entirely comfortable with my decision. I'm just more comfortable with it than the alternative.

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 18:38:43

I'm genuinely shocked and appalled that anyone could accept organs while refusing to donate.

To me that is a form of evil.

The attitude that allows peoe to think that way is the thing that is wrong with the world.

I'm considering doing my bit for humanity by entirely withdrawing from any form of organ donation to increase the chances of these selfish cunts dying on the transplant lists.

Utter, utter cunts to a man or woman angry

And you think you are somehow better by making that statement?

Really?

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 18:44:05

Way fucking better.

A million times better.

Just because you are married to one of those scumbags doesn't make it any less unspeakable to think that way.

tiggytape Thu 14-Feb-13 18:45:33

I guess I don't see bodies (especially when they have died) as being the part of the person, but Clouds does and I know other people who do too. Those people would never donate nor accept an organ for that reason. Which is fair enough.
But if you see the body as fundamentally part of what makes you, you then how could you accept but not donate?

My view is that even in life we aren't terribly well connected to our bodies - they aren't at all what makes us, 'us'. For example we need tests to tell us if we are pregnant / have a tumour / have furred up arteries and all sorts of other things - the body isn't such a part of us that we know these things.
If our body was fundamentally a part of 'us' then it would all be linked up a lot better - we'd be in tune with it but we aren't really. For that reason it is much easier to see the body as a shell that carries around the important bit - the soul or whatever you want to call the bit that makes you 'you'.

crashdoll Thu 14-Feb-13 18:45:41

TheFallenNinja "I sometimes wonder if AIBU is sometimes used for homework or presentation prep. Tut"

Oh do fuck off with your patronising tutting. There is a huge media campaign at the moment geared towards encouraging organ donation.

So for all your compassion and wanting to help and that's the way you express it?

Clearly, you are unable to express yourself properly.

Quite a shame really, given that I agree with you that if you are happy to accept a donated organ, you should be willing to donate.

However, leaving selfish cunts to die on the transplant list to prove some sort of point makes you sound worse than anyone on this thread.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 18:54:39

If you are not registering for donation because you are scared of the procedure (I was) then take the time to discuss it with someone at least.
I'm sorry clouds where did I direct that post at you my friend? You made it about you not me.
Considering my circumstances I am actually fairly understanding of people's choice not to donate but to then say that you'd accept one is horrible.
I think the complete lack of compassion you show towards a mother if a sick son actually speaks volumes.

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 18:55:04

No, it doesn't make me sound worse.

Nothing sounds worse than "I'll happily let your child die by refusing to donate AND I'll happily make their death more likely by taking an organ that could save them."

It is utterly depraved.

Nobody should have to donate knowing someone that evil could be saved using their organs.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 18:55:18

Clouds, you said "People are a body and a soul in my mind. That person isn't completely gone until both parts are finished. The soul being gone but not the body doesn't mean to me that the whole person is gone."

So, will you confirm you wouldn't accept an organ, in that case. Either for you or for your children, since obviously you wouldn't subject anyone to having their soul and body separated in the way you believe would happen for organ donation.

Either you believe your reasons for not donating are valid, or you don't.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 18:56:21

Athing, I'm not convinced your comments are going to be very persuasive grin

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 18:57:15

Sorry, tiggy just said what I said, but much more clearly - "But if you see the body as fundamentally part of what makes you, you then how could you accept but not donate?"

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 18:57:51

Thank you clucky

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 18:58:19

That wasn't meant to be a grin, by the way, but a hmm.

AThing it does make you sound worse.

But I have read stuff like this from you before. It's almost impossible to have any type of conversation because everyone apart from you is a cunt and a scumbag.

If you are happy, in fact relishing letting people die because you have decided they are "evil" you sound exactly like the scumbags you are wishing death on.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:00:24

But if you see the body as fundamentally part of what makes you, you then how could you accept but not donate?

Personally, the idea of having a part of a strangers body inside me is horrible, so I'm not comfortable with the thought of that either. But it's more comfortable than the thought of my children being motherless. Yes, I do see why that could come across as selfish, but then no one is entirely selfless and I know I do plenty of good for society, so I can live with a few small minded people on the Internet thinking I'm selfish.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 19:01:57

And someone else being motherless, that's ok?

I am trying very hard to understand here but I just can't.

And I don't think it's because I am smallminded.

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 19:02:15

Nothing is going to persuade these evil fuckers.

For the first time in my life I have been given pause about organ donation, which I had previously held to be an unalloyed good.

The persuasion has happened - I have been convinced to come off the register.

The whole thing is bullshit if it is just the selfish accepting life from people they consider to be worthless mugs.

I feel ill.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 19:02:28

Good then eats hope you don't have to eat a large slice if humble pie one day. Goodnight all.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:04:05

Either you believe your reasons for not donating are valid, or you don't.

I don't feel the need to have my feelings validated.

I think my reasons are valid for me, but I don't think that gives me any kind of say over what is valid or not for other people. Other people's feelings about their own organs are nothing to do with me.

Lifeisontheup Thu 14-Feb-13 19:04:28

Just added my name to the donor list, I used to have a card but have no idea where it went. Have sent the suggested email to my DH so he is in no doubt what my wishes are although I'm sure he would want to donate too.

Does anyone know if you have to update the register if you move?

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:07:37

Ledkr, I missed your post directed at me, and I'm sorry that I thought one of your previous posts was aimed at me when it wasn't. I'm just trying to discuss people's various thoughts on a difficult subject.

Of course I have compassion for a mother in terrible circumstances, and I'm genuinely sorry for what your family is going through.

ComposHat Thu 14-Feb-13 19:07:54

I'll accept and give any organ going duckie.

[Does high pitched Kenneth Williams laugh]

jeee Thu 14-Feb-13 19:08:50

Aggressive posts will not make anybody think, "gosh, I really should go on the donor register."

Yes, as TantrumsAndBalloons says, people should be prepared to donate if they would accept a donation. But if the aim of this thread is to encourage people to sign up, these kind of posts are mind-bogglingly counter-productive.

I've suggested this on previous threads about transplants, but I'll do it here again, anyway. Perhaps people who have received organs, or have had family members who have had one can tell their stories - to explain someone's enormous generosity, at a time of deep bereavement, can transform the lives of others.

My sister had two liver transplants, which gave my family an extra eight years of my sister. I will always be indebted to the donor families.

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 19:09:03

'I guess maybe a difference in my head is that while I understand that after brain death, a person is dead, if their body is still going, they just aren't completely dead.

People are a body and a soul in my mind. That person isn't completely gone until both parts are finished. The soul being gone but not the body doesn't mean to me that the whole person is gone.'

Clouds, my daughter was never brain dead. She went first into kidney failure, then liver failure, and her lungs, well, she developed this pneumothorax/air escaping from failed lungs.

She was dead when that vent was pulled. The amazing ICU consultant, my child's own consultant got him in per my request, told me exactly what would happen if we did not pull off that vent, and how he'd seen it and it haunts him. That poor man. And I knew from two other doctor friends it was true. I'm so glad he levelled with us and we were able to give her as dignified a death as possible.

But she was dead. Her kidneys had failed, her liver had failed, her lungs had failed. If there was a chance for her organs to be harvested for transplant, I'd have been more than willing to agree because I can tell you, when your loved one is dead, you know. She was not technically brain dead, but her heart beat all of about 10 times after that vent was pulled and she never breathed on her own. She died because her lungs failed.

As it was, it wasn't a possibility for her to donate, because of her leukaemia and stem cell transplant.

And it makes me sad. You see, she was buried 'intact' and 'whole'. There was no need for post mortem as her cause of death was very clear.

We were able to donate the 500mL of her cancer-free bone marrow harvest before she went for transplant herself to medical research, and I can tell you, this gives me great comfort, that somehow, there is something left of her that may help others (her form of leukaemia was relatively rare, and even more so in children, and even rarer still is to have someone survive to produce such a harvest).

I think it's very selfish, really. When you die, you are dead. You do not come back, and your body doesn't go with you.

If there is a chance to spare others the grief that goes with losing one's loved one, I think it's the human thing to do.

Fair enough, if you chose not to, but then you should not be able to receive, IMO, as an adult.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 19:10:03

Except if you or your child needed one. In which case you feel you have a right to accept one.

Nice.

And don't waste your sympathy on Ledkr when you don't really mean it. What you are saying is "I am genuinely sorry for your terrible circumstances, as long as I don't have to help in any way" which is pretty patronising.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:11:04

And someone else being motherless, that's ok?

No, premature death for anyone isn't ok, and I will continue to donate blood and would willingly give bone marrow if a match was found for me to try to prevent that. It will still happen though.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 19:11:15

clouds thank you.

lifes yes maybe we should all use this thread to remind ourselves to update our details. That would be far more proactive.

Maybe the call will come tonight. You never know.

AThing so now you have decided you aren't going to save anyone's life?
So a person who needed your organs, who was fully prepared to donate their own if possible, will die?

And that makes you what? Morally superior?

Get a grip. And read back what you just wrote.

Doesn't that make you a scumbag?

Oh but no of course not. Because you have a valid reason to let people die don't you? Much more valid than anyone else.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 19:11:52

Sorry, my last post was to clouds.

And Ledkr, sorry, I shouldn't have referred to you in that way, I'm sorry for using your son to make a point.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 19:12:05

((expat)) I know what you went through with your dd, as much as I could. She would have loved to let others live on after her death. She was such a generous soul. I wish everyone was like her!

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 19:13:25

AThing, you are being a tad ridiculous now.

Clouds, you might be able to prevent someone being motherless. If you were in a car accident, you might be able to save someone else.

By saying you won't donate, you could save someone.

And FWIW, even I don't think my DH should be able to receive a transplant if he isn't willing to donate, other than by giving blood and bone marrow.

I hate it.

But I can't change his mind, it's not mine to change.

And whilst it is probably hard to accept, because its hard for me to accept, that doesn't make him scum.

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 19:14:25

Lifeisontheup well done and a big cheer thanks. Thank you for taking the extra step to register

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 19:15:59

Hi Jeee I have had a double organ transplant and have talked about a few things relating to it in this thread from how it has saved my life and meant that I could have my DS to the relationship I now have with my donors mum.
I am so sorry about your sisters passing but I am so happy for you all that she managed to have 8 years more of her life to spend with you all.

Sadly I think that many people just think that it is something that will never affect them or their families and I guess they can justify their decision more to themselves thinking this.

The comment about not wanting a strangers organs inside you is understandable I suppose but believe me I am so so happy to have 2 of my donors organs inside me keeping me alive every day. It is very hard for me to get my head around the fact that I have got a boys organs inside me, a boy who I know a lot about and have seen pictures of but will never get to meet to thank (not in this world anyway) but I thank god/whoever every day for the amazing and brave donors and their families and the wonderful surgeons and NHS system we have in this country.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 19:16:54

expat that was hard to read never mind write. Don't let this thread make you feel any worse than you do. The majority are good people. Lives will still be saved even if not enough.
Don't know what to say so ill shut up now.

BrianCoxandTheTempleofDOOM Thu 14-Feb-13 19:16:56

I know I can't donate blood, due to having a life saving transfusion in 1995.

I always assumed I could donate organs and my family are aware that is my wish. At some point I did sign up to be a donor, have no idea if that has lapsed or I need to re-register though as it was years and years ago.

I need to read the thread really don't I slaps self for committing MN sin of not reading the full thread

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:17:17

Except if you or your child needed one. In which case you feel you have a right to accept one

It's not up to me to decide for my child. When my children are old enough to express their own wishes about organ donation, I will respect them whatever they are.

This thread is going round in circles now, but as I said earlier, I'm open to having my mind changed if anyone has anything new to add.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 19:18:38

athing I think I've made an accurate guess as to who the scum is on this threa and I didn't look in the mirror!

There are people in here who have gone through unspeakable loss who are tryin to explain the value of donation to posters like myself and they have carried it off with grace, dignity and politeness.

No one on here is spoiling for a bun fight except you

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 19:21:21

That's rubbish clouds.

You make decisions every day for your children - what they eat, where they live, where they go to school. You are just making excuses now.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 19:21:51

maryz no worries. We are the lucky ones. Dialysis will keep him alive until we find a donor unlike many other illnesses so ds and I are always positive about it. In fact I bought him a fray bentos steak and kidney pie for his birthday.
Jeeez thank god it's half term/ valentines day so I can indulge in some weekday wine.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:23:06

Clouds, you might be able to prevent someone being motherless. If you were in a car accident, you might be able to save someone else.

I could, possibly, but in doing so I'd make my own husbands grief at the death of his wife even worse. Should I just ignore that completely?

Expat, your post is heartbreaking. I don't know what to say. Of course, I am so sorry for what happened to your daughter. I'm not trying to be patronising btw, I doubt anyone could feel anything other than genuine sorrow upon hearing yours and your daughters stories.

BrianCoxandTheTempleofDOOM Thu 14-Feb-13 19:23:17

ok, so this thread is not what I expected it to be when I initially replied shock

I have read some posts, skim read others does anybody know if I can donate having had a transfusion and being unable to donate blood?

Thanks

TandB Thu 14-Feb-13 19:23:57

I find it so hard to understand people being willing to accept an organ - even to the extent of being willing to do so under false pretences, like Fairyjen - but refuse to do the same for others.

A friend of mine donated a kidney to her brother. She didn't think twice about it when she found out he needed one - she went to be tested and told them straight away that she wanted to do it. She went into a hospital and let them cut her open and take a part of her out in order to save her brother. If someone is capable of that level of self-sacrifice, I find it staggering that anyone would refuse to allow what is, when all is said and done, a lump of dead flesh, to be used to save someone else's life.

If I knew someone who held these views in real life I would judge them and I would find it hard to look at them in the same way ever again.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 19:25:05

kung I would donate to my dp and dc I have said that

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 19:25:32

This thread is going round in circles now, but as I said earlier, I'm open to having my mind changed if anyone has anything new to add.

Clouds. We can't do that but maybe you could just research some of what stops you maybe on the net or your pastor or even speak to someone at the organ register. Not being sarky btw just a genuine suggestion.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:27:01

That's hardly the same thing Maryz. And I don't need to make excuses.

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 19:27:28

I believe you may be able to BrianCoxandTheTempleofDoom the only flat out no is for HIV or suspected CJD. ( maybe someone with more knowledge can clairfy. Also on the website is says cryptically..."Yes. The decision about whether some or all organs or tissue are suitable for transplant is always made by a specialist, taking into account your medical history. There may be specific reasons why it has not been possible to donate blood, such as having had a blood transfusion ...."

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 19:28:47

I don't think I can have any part of a system that allows the evil, selfish bastards of the world take organs from the good.

It's so utterly depraved that I'll take the risk that I might one day need an organ I wouldn't be able to accept rather than be a part of it.

In reality I'll calm down and remember all the good that is done by organ donation.

But I had no idea people could be so casually evil and it has profoundly shaken my belief in humanity.

I feel physically sick that people are willing to abuse the kindness of their fellow humans in such a way.

It's truly shocking.

And to me those people are scum.

TandB Thu 14-Feb-13 19:29:55

I meant to say, when I was a student I lived near a major transplant hospital. We overlooked a crossroads that was fairly regularly brought to a standstill by police motorbikes clearing the route for an organ to be rushed in to the hospital.

Everyone knew what was happening and people would sometimes stop what they were doing and clap and cheer as the ambulance went past.

It used to make me a bit teary - I was never sure if they were applauding the emergency services or whether they were thinking of someone's sacrifice, but it always seemed like a celebration of someone getting a chance at life.

I've got a lump in my throat just thinking about it.

This is beyond ridiculous.

Judge away. Judge a person on the basis of one choice. But the poster who says they don't understand why anyone would refuse? Well that's just it, isn't it. You cannot understand what someone else thinks, feels, believes.
Just because it is unbelievable to you, it doesn't make their feelings any less valid.
People are allowed to feel as they do. Not every single person has to have the same feelings, values, beliefs.

Just because its something you or anyone else finds incomprehensible or wrong, doesn't make it wrong to them

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:31:54

Ledkr, thank you. It is something I have spoken about in RL, quite a lot actually as one of my best friends gave her brother a kidney last year.

For some reason (still not entirely sure what) I wouldn't think twice about being a living kidney donor, and I know all that it entails.

It's the death thing that bothers me.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 19:33:11

On this thread, though, no-one has actually explained their reservations. It's all "well I wouldn't" but I'm not sure anyone has said anything past the "ick" factor. So why? Why, really, would you deny someone else's child life with something your child no longer needed? Wouldn't your child want someone else to live?

My dc are 9,11,13 but at much younger ages they said they wanted to donate. I'd donate if I could (I can't) and dh would.

I just can't understand (maybe I'm thick) why donating a lump of dead flesh is so hard, especially if you would accept.

Can one of you who thinks they wouldn't please explain why burying a complete body is so important when 3-4 people could have been given life and 2 more the gift of sight? Don't you care?

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 19:34:34

"I could, possibly, but in doing so I'd make my own husbands grief at the death of his wife even worse. Should I just ignore that completely?"

Yes.

Of course you should.

How can you possibly think otherwise.

How much worse could his grief really be FFS?

So bad that someone else should die to appease him?

BrianCoxandTheTempleofDOOM Thu 14-Feb-13 19:37:17

Adss thank you for that - so possibly, most likely 'yes' but they would decide based on medical history.

Ta!

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 19:37:26

briancox I've been told I can't ever again give blood, bone marrow or organs as I get a monthly infusion of immunoglobulins (a blood by-product) to minimise my neurological illness. I had to sign a form to say I wouldn't sue if I got cjd from it!

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 19:37:31

Don't be confused about having to be related to be a living donor either. My ex h and my dh are both undergoing matching to give dh a kidney. It's possible these days.
Wonderful fantastic selfless men whom I'm lucky to have in my life.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:39:16

Can one of you who thinks they wouldn't please explain why burying a complete body is so important when 3-4 people could have been given life and 2 more the gift of sight? Don't you care?

Of course I care.

But I've already explained that for me personally, it's not about burying a complete body. It's about the time between brain death and body death.

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 19:39:30

Right well I've shown dp this thread we are going to discuss the issue again. ( not tonight tho as its valentines )

We may change our minds we may not but whatever we are NOT scum

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 19:41:23

No Tantrum, this isn't an issue that can be argued away with moral relativity.

A person whose feelings allow them to accept organs they wouldn't donate does not have a moral position.

It is immoral and hypocritical and it can't be argued otherwise.

Being angry and outspoken on a Internet forum doesn't touch it in terms of which is worse.

A person who will accept the gift of life from the family of someone dying in horrible circumstances knowing they feel it beneath them have ever done the same is morally deficient at a pretty basic level.

I have my faults, but even I am better than that.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:42:14

Ledkr, yes, it is wonderful that living donation doesn't have to be done between family. The only thing that puts me off offering my biggest kidney up for it now is that one of my own children or my husband might need it one day.

EauRouge Thu 14-Feb-13 19:44:27

Fairy, I'm really glad that this thread has caused you to have a re-think.

I agree that either organ donation is OK or it isn't, whether giving or receiving.

SoleSource Thu 14-Feb-13 19:44:47

I do carry a donor card and would consent to donate my DS organs.

I would be very comforted to.know I have helped others.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 19:45:17

But what is it about it?

No one has really explained why they are against it?

And if you are that much against it, then why would you accept something so abhorrent to your beliefs?

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 19:46:46

SoleSource You may not always have your card on you. it's worth the couple of minutes to join the register online .

CloudsAndTrees Thu 14-Feb-13 19:48:57

I have already explained what makes me uncomfortable about it weegie.

I'm not against it, I just don't feel comfortable with the procedure.

It is not abhorrent to my beliefs.

SoleSource Thu 14-Feb-13 19:49:01

Yeah I read uptbread about the online register. Will do this,.thank you smile

Perhaps sometimes as people age tbey might see life differently and develop a different viewpoint.

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 19:50:31

thanks (loving this smiley!)

Lifeisontheup Thu 14-Feb-13 19:50:57

That's why I've done it online Adsss I've lost my card and although I'm pretty sure my DH would be happy for me to be donated I think he would like to have my wishes documented so there is no question.

Will be discussing it with my DC's when they're back from uni. I think that they will join too. Will be suggesting to DH he does it too although I'm pretty sure he's had a donor card since he was 18, he's given blood for years.

pingviner Thu 14-Feb-13 19:51:48

I have a lot of respect for people and families who choose to donate
Ive assisted with both donors and recipients during these situations
Ive spoken to many grieving families losing a loved one. Some find the act of donating a comfort, others feel violated at a time of grief and trauma to even be asked a question about donation

but the point is, its a gift to be given, not a right to expect
for every great story of a life saved with a transplant remember theres someones tragic death that had to take place first
people feel many ways about their and family members bodies
remember the alder hey organ retention scandal and how justifiably incensed people were over organs being removed without permissions
people were holding remembrance ceremonies over tissue on slides, because it was their loved ones
I hate to see a family deny an individuals clearly expressed wish, but am equally uncomfortable with presumed consent systems
The best thing people can do is discuss the situation with their families and make sure their wishes are known and if possible documnted and registered

for anyone unable to donate due to illness etc if you are still keen to make an altruistic gift if you die remember that you still may be able to donate your body to research eg anatomy or surgical training, research etc. While not benefiting individuals in the same way you will still be aiding training and development that allows transplants to take place

On a personal note I will happily donate anything but not my eyes. I reserve the right to be as irrational as anyone else

Andthentherewere5 Thu 14-Feb-13 19:55:06

Well I am down to donate anything they can use AND I would donate anything from my DD (please god dont make me ever do it though!).
I know personally a little boy who needed a liver transplant. He was 5 when his liver failed and now has a complete and active life. A miracle really. Seeing the relief / joy (tinged with guilt) of his parents was all the proof I needed to know it would be the right thing to do. To be able to take the pain of losing a child away from someone else wouldc be an amazing thing to do.

SoleSource Thu 14-Feb-13 19:55:23

My DS is healthy but severly.disabled so.unable to make.his wishes k.own never.mind understand what being a doneris.

As his parent.am I legally able to make this decision for.him?

FairyJen Thu 14-Feb-13 19:55:36

ping that's a very good point about it being a gift

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 19:56:07

clouds no I agree with that. I wouldn't donate to a stranger whilst living in case anyone in my family needed it but I think exh and dh do see ds as family iykwim?
I can't donate as I've had cancer but really wish I could.

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 19:59:18

Yeah, but it's not a gift you should be happy to accept while you know woukd not give.

weegiemum Thu 14-Feb-13 20:01:01

I can't donate to others.

I have a rare neurological disease - Chronic immunological Demylenating Polyneuropathy. It's (possibly) genetic. (CIDP)

The only current treatment in the uk is something called IVIg - intravenous immune globulins. I get it once a month. It takes 30 people to make my treatment from blood donations.

But if my dh dropped dead of a heart attack tonight I'd give them everything.

I'm not going to quibble about what happens between the decision and death.

I really don't understand what, apart from " ick no, not my dh" actualy makes a difference?

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 20:03:59

Anyone know if cancer rules out all donation? For some reason I though corneas could still be given (but can't find anything out there backing up or ruling out)
Ads x

BathTangle Thu 14-Feb-13 20:07:04

This is about a little girl I know - she's 7 now, the same age as my DS. She had a heart transplant as a baby, but the life expectancy of the transplanted heart is only 15 years, so she'll need another one in the future....

I have always been on the donor register myself, and although I know it would be so hard to make the decision should something happen to my own children, knowing Ellie and her story it really brings into sharp focus how important it is: for me, I would like to feel I could spare another person the grief that I would be going through.

I couldn't accept a donation for my children and not be prepared to reciprocate.

landofsoapandglory Thu 14-Feb-13 20:07:31

I can't get my head round some of the views on this thread, I really, really can't! How anyone can take an organ but not give one is beyond me.

I have just updated my status on the register. I always said anything apart from my eyes, but if I die tomorrow what good are they to me? Who am I going to see again? My corneas may mean that a mother or father might see their child for the first time, or a child might see their parents, the birds, flowers and butterflies. Who needs them more? It's a nobrainer really!

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 20:07:42

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned a relative who died of cancer and donated corneas.

ledkr Thu 14-Feb-13 20:10:08

Dh knows they can have me when I'm gone. Hopefully they can salvage some cancer free stuff

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 20:10:55

Thanks, I missed some posts whilst at work today and then saw a few circular arguments so probably did not read as much as I should have!

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 20:12:32

I'm glad you and your DH are going to have another think about it Fairy, This is a great forum for being able to learn things from the experiences of other people.

i think the law should be changed so that you have to opt OUT of organ donation, rather than opt in. a lot more lives would be saved. i honestly think people don't get round to putting their names on the register when they would be quite happy to donate.

if you feel strongly against donation, then you'd be quite happy to get your name on a 'don't donate' list.

i also have keratakonus, so i might need a cornea transplant at some stage.

of course i am down to donate organs.

i actually think it's a wonderful thing to be able to save someone's life. imagine part of yourself living on in someone else! i'd be very happy with that.

LauraSmurf Thu 14-Feb-13 20:16:19

I have a blood clotting disorder and so nearly all of my organs would be refused as well as any blood I donate. I can't even donat plasma or platelets.

I would happily take one if I needed it. However I do work hard to give how I can. I promote, I make tea etc at blood donations, I give blood etc to studies into my disease.

Does this make me selfish? What could I do to make up the difference?

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 20:19:57

'It's not up to me to decide for my child.'

It is until they are deemed able under a prescribed scale of consciousness .

I threw up questions before consenting my daughter to her second round of chemo. Only questions. They were enough to throw off the junior sent to consent me.

Her consultant was quick to call me in and start in on legalities, of which she knew little. I listened, then told her I was not here to refuse, and affirm the witness as such, because any court of law would quickly overrule me, quite rightly, but only to pose questions. That court of law would allow my questions, via my appointed counsel, but that it would be a very tragic waste of time; it would be better they were answered then and there, and treatment to procede, for I knew my child without treatment would die quickly. And then when she answered them I dicated a paragraph for her to write and both of us to sign, as full and informed consent, because only she could write in those notes without formal leave.

It is entirely up to you and your team of consultants to decide for your child. Where there is disagreement, there is court. It is worthwhile to instead speak with the team at whatever length you can to decide.

But in the case of children I have not met consultants, and I have met very cold ones, who are in the business of proposing organ donation where every other possiblity for that child to live has not been exhausted.

Again, that is just my experience, and I have had some consultants whose manner was such I did not want them near my daughter when she died. But it was not their clinical skills I found lacking, and I was not shy in making that known to them.

MummytoKatie Thu 14-Feb-13 20:26:47

I think an opt out system is good. If you haven't talked about it then all you know is that your family member hasn't opted in. That could be because they are violently opposed or it could be because they didn't bother because they always carried a donor card but last week they realised it was really old and manly and chucked it out so they could replace it with a shiny new one.

Or something in between.

It must be very hard to make the decision in that case. If there is an opt out system then at least you will know that your family member is not violently opposed.

Maybe there should be an opt in (organs donated without family consent) and opt out (organs never donated even if family want to).

Then only the family of "not sure / never got round to it" have to make the decision.

Incidentally, if there is an opt out system do people think that by signing to go on it you should also accept that you are signing to not receive organs in the future? (Ie you are opting out of the donor system completely.)

If that was implemented how should it work? Once on, no organs for life? Or a time period after you come off where you can't get one (6 months, 5 years?) Or maybe that you can't get one for the period you were on it?

I don't think I agree with that - the NHS is all about prioritising by need not by who is the nicest person.

But if there was only one heart going and both my husband (who feels sick at the thought of organ donation but is still signed up) and the poster whose husband won't donate both needed it then I think I would struggle if the other husband got it.

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 20:31:38

Laura

"Does this make me selfish? What could I do to make up the difference?"

You have no difference to make up.

Of course you're not selfish.

There will always be more people taking out than giving in because not everyone can donate.

That's what makes it so appalling that people would actively choose to take and not give.

i think whether you are prepared to have an organ donated to you should be separate from whether you yourself are going to donate.

i think it isn't ok to deny someone an organ transplant because they don't want to donate themselves. that is unacceptable in my view.

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 20:36:25

Given that there are more people waiting for organs than their are donors, I think it's entirely fair that people who don't want to donate are given a lower priority.

tiggytape Thu 14-Feb-13 20:39:43

Laura - of course you're not selfish. Most people who sign up will probably not be able to donate when it actually comes down to it even if they want to - the manner of their death or age when dying will mean their organs aren't usable. Nobody can help that.

MarianneM Thu 14-Feb-13 21:00:20

FairyJen - a few pages back you said you didn't want your loved ones cut open and violated after their death.

But they will be "violated" - their bodies will be eaten by maggots unless you choose cremation in which case they will be burnt to dust.

If you allow donation their organs will continue to live.

Isn't that a nicer thought?

DomesticCEO Thu 14-Feb-13 21:03:53

I personally don't want my organs to go to anyone who is too selfish to donate theirs.

I don't mean people who can't for medical reasons, but people who won't for spurious reasons like "wanting to be buried whole".

I wish I could state this on my donor card!

Nornironmum Thu 14-Feb-13 21:04:18

I am really saddened by some of the views on this thread. My father and stepfather are both recovering alcoholics. I have seen more than most how alcohol can destroy lives. However it it's a disease most people don't choose to become an alcoholic. It's a addiction, my father has fought it for years and I have watched him suffer trying to stop. I can't understand why he wouldn't deserve a chance at a liver transplant if someone was dying anyway. You can't take your liver with you, so why should someone who has tried to fight this terrible illness not deserved another chance. Walk a mile in my fathers shoes, live through the pain he has suffered in his life to make him the way he is. But don't judge someone you don't even know by saying you wouldn't want your liver to go to him. Do alcoholics not deserve a second chance? Thank god I don't feel like this. I wound donate anything to anyone because who gives me the right to decide who gets what?

DomesticCEO Thu 14-Feb-13 21:23:47

Norn, I'm sorry about your dad. I would rather give my liver to an alcoholic than to someone who won't donate their organs but is more than happy to take mine.

ReindeerBollocks Thu 14-Feb-13 21:24:15

I have been on this thread for a while but will give my full story anyway.

DS has CF, and is severely affected. He will need a heart /lung transplant eventually and possibly kidneys/liver due to the meds keeping him going being so toxic. We know of a lovely little girl who used to play with DS and she chose not to accept an organ and died two years ago, aged just 11.

My heart breaks thinking about putting him on the list, when the time comes to it. I don't think about it regularly, as it really fucking scares me. Moreso than what I would do should DS not survive.

Unfortunately for our family, DH also had renal failure caused by a random virus and ended up needing a kidney. When DD was four weeks old, DH had a major heart attack, caused by the effects of dialysis. It was then that I decided to donate a kidney (which was considerably risky given I had two small children at home). We weren't compatible but were able to go ahead with the live donation anyway. This process took an awfully long time (two years start to finish). There were times when I had DH and DS in two different hospitals at the same time, and was tearing myself in two.

Luckily the transplant was a success and everything (touch wood) is well, but honestly? My heart was in my mouth the morning they wheeled me down. I cried as I was petrified but I also knew that I would never be in the position to help DS but I could help DH.

My god how I wish I could make DS better - I'd give own life. But, I can't. I can't make it better or make it go away. I can't promise him a long healthy lifetime. But I can sign up to the donation register. I have talked friends into it too. DS is a beautiful boy, who loves moshi's and minecraft. He battles daily with medical shit and has more operations than is fair. My only hope is that his courage to get through daily life will encourage people to sign up, so that should he need an organ he can get one.

I know how daunting the process - more than anything as I've donated myself. There was a chance I could die (not helped by them tearing my renal artery) and I had to request that should anything happen that they continue with DH's transplant and not tell him.

Also I practice what I preach. Our DD is on the register, I am on the register. It's not an easy decision and despite my previous posts I have no problem with people who don't want to donate for any reason, and who wouldn't accept an organ.

But when I think of my boy, I can't help but feel angry that people would accept but not donate because it's icky, or scary, or a whole host of silly reasons. Think about battling every day with a condition knowing that ultimately your life will end if you don't get a transplant. Now that is scary.

landofsoapandglory Thu 14-Feb-13 21:24:24

I agree with you DomesticCEO.

BabyRoger Thu 14-Feb-13 21:28:49

Norn I have not seen anyone on the thread say they would not give to an ex alcoholic (forgive me if I am wrong).

People are objecting to the view that someone would take an organ but would not be willing to donate one - for reasons such as it is yuk or they wish to be buried 'whole'.

landofsoapandglory Thu 14-Feb-13 21:29:40

I truly hope your DS gets a transplant when he needs one Reindeer.

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 21:41:54

Reindeer - life is so bloody cruel and unfair sometimes and I am so sorry that both your DS and DH have been/are so ill. I really hope that your DH gets many years from the wonderful gift of your kidney you have given him.
I hope that your sons' need for a transplant is a long time away. I am on a Facebook group called 'pregnancy and motherhood after transplant' and there are a few ladies on there who have had heart/lung transplants because of CF who have even gone on to have successful pregnancies and healthy babies. I wish you all wellx

If I need all my bits to get into heaven I'm quite happy to wait until the next child has finished with them (realistically, given my age and size, each of my organs would go to a teenage boy).

Except that I'm down one tumour-killed organ already. Ah well.

I don't get the arguments against donation. I think it is a very personal thing. But this week a friend's niece died of a sudden brain haemorrhage at 12 and the only solace her family could take was knowing that she had saved several other lives.

Nornironmum Thu 14-Feb-13 21:48:25

Your poor ds reindeer. I really hope he gets a transplant when it's needed.
The second post on this thread was chickenshit saying she wouldn't go on the register in case an alcoholic got her liver.
Both my sons 2 under 5 are on the register as are myself and dh. I just can't understand any reason why someone who could donate would chose not to, but then accept an organ from someone else. I think it's disgusting if you won't donate then you should not be able to receive. Maybe if this law were passed then we wouldn't be short of donations.

ReindeerBollocks Thu 14-Feb-13 21:53:03

Thank you landof

clucky I've only just seen your other post! So maybe another baby, should it be safe again to do so? That would be lovely. I can't believe your DS is two now, that has just flown by! I know of a few CF ladies who've had babies after transplant. I hope that DS will not need it for many, many years. I also know that he has had more intervention than most CF children his age though, so if things continue the way they are then, well, it might be sooner than we would have liked. If he can make adulthood I'd be over the blooming moon! We wait and see.

I hope we are lucky with DH's kidney too - partly cos I don't have another one spare grin. We are just enjoying the dialysis free time we do have. His heart has slowly improved and we go from month to month at this stage. Luckily only one rejection episode so far. <crosses fingers for a long and happy transplant>

ReindeerBollocks Thu 14-Feb-13 21:55:10

X -post thanks norniron smile

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 22:11:00

Hoping your DS has many years before any of this becomes an immediate issue for your son, Reindeer.

clucky80 Thu 14-Feb-13 22:14:01

Thanks Reindeer! Hmm I'm not 100 percent sure what to do at the moment. I never imagined having my DS so in some ways trying for another baby seems to be pushing my luck ifykwim. I would love to be able to give my son a sibling - I think especially if something happens to me while he is young, at least he would have a DB or DS. I have had the go ahead from my consultants though although the risks are obviously the same as first time round and I have been warned that a subsequent pregnancy may not go as well. I have changed my medication so now am on N additional immunosuppressant but luckily haven't noticed more illness because of it. I am also just starting up my own business too so I am keeping myself v busy!
I really really hope that your DS can go a long time without a transplant and it is amazing what a few years can do in the medical world. When I was first diagnosed in 1992 the prospect of curing my condition was unheard of and now it is something that is becoming more normal.
Fantastic that your DH's heart is improving and he is experiencing good health!
I will keep in touch via pm and let you know what is happening x

sukysue Thu 14-Feb-13 22:16:46

I am worried they will not try to save my life enough . Also do you all realise that you are still alive when they take the organs?

seeker Thu 14-Feb-13 22:21:59

Depends what you mean by "alive". Personally, I think when my brain stops functioning I'm dead, regardless of what my heart and lungs are doing.

Adsss Thu 14-Feb-13 22:22:05

If you believe you are not dead when they remove organs and that doctors won`t try and save you there is little anyone can say to change your mind. But I suggest reading up on thedonor registration faq to see the official position.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 22:41:26

ReindeerBollocks, your post is very moving, and it's stories like yours that make me so glad that organ donation exists, and so upset that so many people (for no particular reason) don't want to get involved.

sukysue, at least read the thread before offering incorrect opinions hmm.

fairy, I'm glad you are reconsidering. I really don't think you are scum, I didn't mean to be harsh on either you or clouds, it's just that yours is a position that I just can't no matter how I try, get my head around.

Interestingly I have talked to many of my children's friends over the years about organ donation, and I have never met a youngster who wouldn't donate, so hopefully with more education and understanding the numbers will go up.

And those who accept organs will never forget the sacrifice of the families who have agreed, at probably the worst time in their lives, to give to others.

IneedAgoldenNickname Thu 14-Feb-13 22:41:52

I haven't read the while thread so apologies if I repeat something.

Personally I think that if you aren't willing to give (medical reasons aside) then its horribly selfish to take.

I'm on the donor register, although my ex always said he wouldn't allow my organs to be taken. (obviously this isn't a problem anymore as he's an ex) BUT, if anything were to happen to my children I would want their organs donated, and their dad wouldn't. Does anyone know what would happen in that situation? Who gets to decide?

How does the organ register get updated?, I ask as I was registered as a donor under a previous surname, and have since been diagnosed with ME, which means I can't donate. I have no idea if that is officially on all of my medical records or not or if the register is updated to reflect that as technically I should be removed.
Not being able to donate for something that the medical establishment treats as psychological is very annoying, especially having read the letters from families that my ExDH helped after his death, including his liver and eyes despite his death being due to suicide through overdose and his being very short sighted.

it's not easy to put forward a minority opinion on such an emotive topic, but I'm posting my thoughts in earnest with the hope that the opt in/opt out discussion goes beyond a surface discussion.

I'm on the organ donor register for all my bits. I've donated blood and been on the bone marrow register too although sadly am now not allowed to donate. My family know of my wishes to be a donor.

I do not believe next of kin should be allowed to override a donor's stated wishes.

However I do not believe it is moral or ethical to presume consent, within an opt out system, and for the default position to be "we own this brain dead ventilated person's organs and will be harvesting them before switching off life support. Even if we're not sure that this person consented to being a donor in life. Even if the family members are telling me this person categorically did not wish to donate. Because we can't find evidence that they opted out using whatever tools (internet? paper form?) were deemed necessary."

However unpalatable or selfish I may deem someone's decisions on what to do with their money, their estate or their organs after death, I will fight for their right to make decisions that differ from my own.

I wouldn't accept a law enabling the state to claim all the wealth of those that die without making wills, much less so the bodies of those who die. What else do we truly own, if not our bodies? Do we not hope that funeral directors treat our loved ones with dignity and respect? Regardless of whether our loved ones are saints, selfish buggers, voted tory or were mad as a bag of spanners. It matters to us that they, and we, are respected in death.

If organ removal after death is of no consequence, then why do we feel outraged about the Alder Hey organ scandal? We intuitively know that to take organs without consent after death is a gross violation of human dignity and it is obscene.

If one believes we have a human right for our wishes to be respected after death we cannot condone starting from a place of "We'll take everything we want unless you have told us otherwise...on this particular website, paper form, or at this office, countersigned by whowever etc"

Because to do so is to KNOWINGLY disregard the wishes of others regarding their own bodies.

Andro Thu 14-Feb-13 23:21:12

Maryz - you haven't met my ds then, he's adamant that organ donation is not something he wants.

Andro Thu 14-Feb-13 23:22:29

verylittlecarrot - excellent post

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 23:24:04

I agree, very, with everything you've written about presumed consent.

I am not in favour of it in principle.

But I wonder if that principle should outweigh the lives that would be saved by having a system whereby all the ditherers could just not have to do anything and know that their wish to donate would be carried out.

Andro Thu 14-Feb-13 23:28:36

I think that presumed consent would cause a hugely counter-productive level of hostility, opt in with good education is the way to go imo.

Part of the problem is that we don't on our bodies after death, so even if you really wanted to donate and are on the register the next of kin can still refuse. In my ExH's case, he was on the register and carried a card but it was still up to his parents to decide. His Father didn't want to do it but took my word for it that he was on the register and did want to donate, if I hadn't have been there it wouldn't have happened.
I think there should be away of making your wishes legally binding, next of kin should have to respect your wishes.
ExFIL got a lot of comfort from the experience in the end and completely changed his opinion, I often wonder how often this would be the case for others.

milbracat Thu 14-Feb-13 23:42:39

AThing My DH's opposition to being an organ donor is considered in the FAQ section of the Organ Donation website:

Which is:

13. Can I be sure doctors will try to save me if I am registered as a potential organ donor?
Yes. Health professionals have a duty of care to try and save life first. If, despite their efforts, the patient dies, organ and tissue donation can then be considered and a completely different team of donation and transplant specialists would be called in.

He is skeptical about this about this because in practice it is impossible to tell whether they will follow their hypocratic oath or will just (in a subtle way) let him die. If there is presumed consent, his anti position is going to be stronger.

Yet, he is one of the 4% of the population who gives blood and has 44 donations to his name. Last time he gave blood, he indicated a wish to become a platelet donor as apparently his blood group allows his platelets to be given to anybody. However, they did not take a sample for his platelet count as they did not consider his veins prominent enough. He can still give whole blood however.

Yet to you, he is scum.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 23:45:20

That's interesting Andro - what is his reason?

I agree with a lot of what you said verlittlecarrot. I too would be wary of a "forced donation" culture. I'm also not really happy with forcing relatives to agree just because someone who has died has wanted to. It is a very emotive subject for everyone, and we should all retain the right to make decisions.

I have said before, but I just want to make it clear - I actually have no problem whatsoever with people not wanting to donate themselves or not wanting to donate their children's organs. I think everyone has that right. What I strenuously object to is people who would accept but not donate.

If someone thinks it is wrong to donate (for whatever reason), they should also think it is wrong for other people to donate (for that same reason), therefore by definition they should think it is wrong to accept, either for themselves or for their children.

You cannot take the high ground and say "my body, my choice, the whole thing is wrong" but then be prepared to accept from someone else. That is morally repugnant.

Maryz Thu 14-Feb-13 23:46:50

milbracat, is he prepared to accept a donation, even though he thinks the person might have been allowed to die on purpose to let him have their organs?

Because if he is, his argument fails, imo.

milbracat Thu 14-Feb-13 23:56:54

Maryz He probably would be but he is unlikely to insist that his blood be used to only save the lives of non blood donors.

Oh, and he knows when he is being emotionally blackmailed.

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 23:58:35

milbra - yeah, if would accept an organ from someone he thinks was allowed to die to provide it, he's pretty scummy.

That's no different from buying organs on the black market.

If he thinks organ donors are being killed so their organs can be harvested and he's OK with that as long as he doesn't donate, he's not a good person.

I'd say on a moral par with a drunk driver.

Maryz Fri 15-Feb-13 00:06:23

I don't think it's emotional blackmail, I just find it incomprehensible. I'm not trying to be a bitch about it, really I'm not, I just find it impossible to understand.

But then I would say the same about people willing to accept blood but unwilling to donate. Most of those, however, justify it by not being able to spare the time hmm which is pretty pathetic.

All my kids are mad keen on donation as a concept - one of ds1's best friend got a kidney, and got him thinking. Unfortunately they are unlikely to take any of his organs as he seems determined to systematically destroy them hmm. But both dd and ds2 are desperate to give blood as soon as they are old enough.

AThing, calm down. I really don't think calling people scum is going to change their minds. You can get your point across much more succinctly and politely, surely?

milbracat Fri 15-Feb-13 00:10:13

AThing and MAryz In practice, nobody will even know whether someone is allowed to die because of the knowledge that their organs are likely to be harvested. Nobody who at sometime gives organs or blood can consider that by saving a person their life, that person may later go on to murder someone or be a paedophile.

Why is DH's position on a moral par with a drunk driver? He is not accountable to you for any of his values in life.

Maryz Fri 15-Feb-13 00:21:03

Sorry, milbracat, I DO NOT think your dh is on a par with a drunk driver - please don't confuse me with AThing, I don't like the way she is posting on this thread.

I do struggle though, with anyone not wanting to donate because they are afraid they will be allowed to die, but being ok will accepting an organ from someone they think might have been allowed to die. Do you get what I'm saying?

If you are wary of the system, which of course you have a right to be, should you not (morally) opt out of the whole thing?

AThingInYourLife Fri 15-Feb-13 00:33:56

I think being prepared to accept organs you think we're harvested by killing the person who provided them shows the same lack of regard for the lives and wellbeing of other people as getting behind the wheel when you've had a few.

If organ donation is wrong because people will be allowed to die to get their organs, then you can't think it's OK to accept those organs.

FairyJen Fri 15-Feb-13 00:36:11

maryz I would like to say that I do appreciate you continuing to put across well reasoned polite arguments on this thread even against someone as stubborn as me grin

Unlike some athing!

Maryz Fri 15-Feb-13 00:37:50

Fairy, I'm generally a pretty tolerant person, me smile.

Generally! Sometimes I get a bit cross though. But if even a couple of people think about it after reading this thread, that has to be a good thing, doesn't it?

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Fri 15-Feb-13 00:57:02

This thread has given me the needed kick in the bum to register my details with the NHSBT

I think I was registered already, years ago when I lived here as a student, but I've done it again to be sure.

M0naLisa Fri 15-Feb-13 01:04:26

I signed up to donate when i got my driving license. Our kids are also on it too.
If your willing to accept one to save your life, why not offer the same in return to save a life.

M0naLisa Fri 15-Feb-13 01:07:20

I've just amended some details on mine. Thanks for the link HoldMeCloserTonyDanza

HopAndSkip Fri 15-Feb-13 01:32:40

I am signed up, but to answer OP's original question, my mum she would take an organ if it was a life or death situation, and has had a transfusion before, but she won't sign up.
She is a very anxious person, and she thinks that if doctors have relatives waiting for organs and "see" that you are on the list somehow, that they will let you die. This is in part due to her father dying in very poor care conditions at hospital which I don't think helped her opinion, but she is very anxious anyway, so there can be all sorts of reasons people won't sign up but will take them.

I think also some people might be thinking of relatives, and some families might find it harder to cope with the death knowing they've been chopped up etc after, while others might find it easier knowing some good has come of it. I guess a lot of people would put their families first in that circumstance as it will be a hard enough time anyway.

Dereksmalls Fri 15-Feb-13 02:02:22

I wonder whether those who say they would accept but not donate would actually feel like this in practice. I'm interested in how many of those who say this have been in a position where a close relative needed a transplant. I think the view might be very commonly held by those untouched by the need for an organ and very rarely held by those who have been. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of wholesale conversions take place at this point.

FairPhyllis Fri 15-Feb-13 02:12:05

I'm very disturbed by people here saying they wouldn't want to donate to certain groups of people (e.g. alcoholics), or that you shouldn't be able to receive if you're not willing to donate. I wonder what other moral criteria people would like to impose on recipients - perhaps some people wouldn't like to donate to Tory voters, or to benefits claimants hmm.

Nobody can own a body - even a dead one. The whole system of organ donation works purely on good will and generosity, and as soon as you start loading donation with societal moral expectations those things just break down. It's a wonderful thing that many people do want to donate and that their families enable this, but getting all judgy and saying not being willing to donate is on a par with drink driving is just silly and counter productive. Generosity with conditions attached isn't true generosity.

I am on the donor list, but I would never want my organs to be allocated according to some sort of subjective moral hierarchy. I want them to be made best use of medically - to go to the people with the best tissue match, who stand the best chance of living a healthy life with them. If that means they go to a neo-Nazi, or an alcoholic, or a porn baron, or someone who is not on the register themself, then so be it.

I don't have children, so I don't know if I'd be able to donate their organs, or the organs of anyone I love. While I could donate for myself, I don't actually know if I would be emotionally capable of doing it for someone else until it came to the crunch. Which I suspect would be true for many of us, and nobody should be vilified if, in that moment of grief, it is too big an ask for them.

AThingInYourLife Fri 15-Feb-13 07:05:59

"The whole system of organ donation works purely on good will"

Exactly.

And good will breaks down when people know there are freeloaders abusing the system who will take but feel there is no reason to give.

Not wanting to donate to freeloaders who make the system weaker is different from not wanting to donate to Tories or to neo-Nazis or to alcoholics.

This is a medical situation in which some people will due because of a lack of organs to treat their condition.

People who directly contribute to that lack out of selfishness should be given a lower priority than people who are part of the reason we have organs to donate in the first place.

If people want to opt out of organ donation (not necessarily in a opt-out system) then that is up to them. No moral judgment should attach.

But people who want in on the benefits but not on the generosity should not be allowed to take organs from people who are fully on board with the whole thing.

Getting rid of the freeloader problem will increase the organs available, so there is a definite moral argument for doing it.

It's very different from bullshit about neo-nazis.

And bleating on about what characteristics "true generosity" should have is laughable.

Who cares?

What matters is that organs are available (with proper consent) and that freeloaders aren't able to bring down the system. As they currently appear to be doing.

AThingInYourLife Fri 15-Feb-13 07:23:42

"nobody should be vilified if, in that moment of grief, it is too big an ask for them."

Absolutely.

Nobody can know how they would react at a time like that. Even the most ardent supporter if organ donation might find themselves unable to go through with what their loved on wanted.

But there has been no vilification of that situation.

The vilification is reserved for people who, in the easy situation of not having to make a decision think "I'll have your organs, thanks. But you can whistle for mine."

Those people make shortages worse in two ways. People die because of that attitude.

It deserves vilification.

It's not even close to being a morally neutral standpoint.

People could die as a result of your selfishness.

FairPhyllis Fri 15-Feb-13 07:34:07

And you think that coercion - in the form of 'you can't receive unless you are on the list for donation' - is the way to get proper consent?

If people feel attempts are being made to bully people into being on the register or into donating relatives' organs it will be counterproductive for the whole transplant program. Potential donors and their families will feel alienated and get pissed off that other people think they have a right to parts of someone else's body.

Would you prefer organs to go to waste if there was nobody they were a match for except someone who wasn't on the register? Do you care more about punishing that person or about the potential of saving a human life? If it's the former, well, that's pretty fucked-up.

ledkr Fri 15-Feb-13 07:35:09

Well as I've said before my ds is waiting for a kidney but I still think an alcoholic or drug user should be treated equally as that way lies madness. Addicts are people too with feelings, fears and family.
Addiction isn't a choice once it is addiction.
How about smokers and fat people can they be saved?
As for the fear of not being given the best chance so their organs can be harvested, anyone who has ever worked in a and e would tell you just how hard the team will work to save a life. The question of organ donation doesn't enter anyone's mind as the total focus is on saving the patient in front if them at that moment.

gimmecakeandcandy Fri 15-Feb-13 07:44:45

I despair at the amount of selfish fucking people who would accept donations but not donate themselves, they should be ashamed. How can they feel ok thinking like that? There have been some on this thread who have said they won't donate but they would be happy to receive if they needed it! Hideous hideous people.

Law should be that in order to receive you need to be registered to donate. Simple.

And as for you lot who would take but not give - shame shame shame on you.

FairPhyllis Fri 15-Feb-13 07:49:15

MY selfishness, athing? Did you not read the part where I'm on the list?

I actually think there's a stronger argument to be made for criticising families who block donations than individuals who won't go on the list, because they are ultimately the people who have the power of consent and make the call at the end of the day, regardless of the wishes of the deceased. My guess (because I didn't see the documentary) is that if organs aren't being donated when they could, it's usually because families won't do it. Having said that, I'm not up for hectoring relatives - I think you have to go with the current softly-softly approach because people are very vulnerable at the time when their loved ones die - at times of grief some people simply cannot cope with the idea of donation, which is fair enough.

thegreylady Fri 15-Feb-13 07:53:38

I would if I could. I carried a donor card for years but my cancer treatment means my organs wouldn't be suitable for donation.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 15-Feb-13 07:56:26

I am worried they will not try to save my life enough.

As one of the few people on this thread that have said they don't want to donate organs after death, this is not a concern I share. I do believe that doctors will always try to save a life, even where there is a possibility that that person could go on to be a donor.

Even with living kidney donation, the donor and the recipient are treated by two entirely different, separate teams of doctors, surgeons, and whoever else they need to ensure that each patient is at the forefront of their own doctors minds.

DesiderataHollow Fri 15-Feb-13 08:06:06

Milbracat's DH said this
"I asked DH as to why he's not on the register and he says that if you're in Intensive Care and the doctors know that the second you are declared dead your body is going to be "broken up for spares" then they are not going to try TOO hard to keep you alive. He also objects to the twee and flippant wording on the donor cards themselves - all this "I would like to help someone to live after my death". Given what they are doing, he would rather see something like "I, <name here> authorise medically qualified personnel take the specified organs from my brain dead body for the purposes of transplantation to another individual". He is also against the idea of presumed consent as his organs are "his to give and not the State's to take". "

And that is my where I stand too. Milbracat's DH's preferred wording is semantically sound enough that I would probably be able to sign that.

I don't think I could sign up my children for a scheme as it stands now, with this thought in my head, and I believe I have issues with "beating heart" donations, related to the above. It's such a vsiceral reaction, and I'm not sure I can get past it however I try.

I believe that if I was actually there, and knew for certain there was no hope, the idea of organ donation, to help someone else when there was no hope for me and mine would be at least a shred of comfort, but I feel very, very uncomfortable with the way the register exists at the moment.

I have no issue with the idea of my organs going to help someone else, and have told OH that he must tell someone this if the issue were ever tragically to arise.

AThingInYourLife Fri 15-Feb-13 08:09:53

No, not your selfishness, FairPhyllis.

That was addressed to the secret army of freeloaders insisting they are wonderful and nobody should think badly of them for taking what they think too highly of themselves to give.