Mumsnet Talk

Just that really!

Nothing. I like it and it tastes nice.

Ps. And I am talking about meat. Not sure what "meat" is.

Why should people stop eating meat? What a stupid thing to post.

If you want to be a veggie then that's your perrogative, the same as it's mine to eat meat.

What's 'meat'?

Special meat lovely

Still none the wiser...

Still none the wiser as to what "meat" is.

I will never stop eating meat. I dont think society will ever stop either.

If you want to be vegetarian then thats great for you. But I dont go around asking vegetarians when they will start eating meat so I think YABVVU to even say this.

me neither

Ha! Cross posts. Clearly we are all

There is no force powerful enough on this earth to stop me eating steak. And bacon.

I eat meat but not processed "value" meat, so I feel pretty sanguine about it all. I have always said that I would rather be vegetarian or pescatarian than eat non-free range or organic meat and chicken.

Yes, because nothing has ever happened to people for eating vegetables...

http://seekerblog.com/2012/08/28/dangers-of-organic-produce-the-german-beansprouts-kill-at-least-48-in-2011/

(and organic, to say more...)

At least it's possible to identify which 'meat' it is albeit not the one it claims to be.

God only knows what they've been putting in your veggie burgers!

Umm... We are supposed to be omnivores, you can't fight nature! ( or the smell of bacon!) as others have said, would a veggie stop being a veggie?

Oh is that what the OP's on about? Cheap meat? Why not just say so?

I assume OP is referring to stories about illegal horsemeat contamination, tiny traces of pork found in beef meatballs etc etc when she says "meat"... However I probably won't stop eating meat, just be more aware.

omg wannabe
"I will never stop eating meat." Why?

Lots of cross posts!

It's pretty bloody obvious what 'meat' is, if you follow any news.

How is it a stupid thing to ask? Just rudeness at someone wondering a perfectly reasonable thing. BSE didn't put people off. Widespread use of MRM didn't put people off. Horse meat hasn't put people off. I wonder if there is anything that would put people off? It really seems not. A perfectly reasonable question.

Didn't they find meat in Linda Macartney's veggie sausages? (Few years ago now)

If we didn't eat meat we'd have to bury cows and sheep when they die. Not enough room in our graveyards. Better just to eat them IMO.

omg because I like it.

I dont buy low quality processed crap. So I see no issue.

Admittedly bits of dead jockey in the horseburger might start to make me think twice.

I like meat. I don't like quorn, tofu or veg much.

So nothing really will stop me eating meat. Think of the millions of poor defenceless broccoli who will suffer if I switched to veg.

I presume you mean the horse/donkey thing. Well I think you'd be a fool to give up meat because of that. Problems happen with food all the time, not just with meat. Glass fragments in baby food, food poisoning from beansprouts etc etc. I used to work for a big supermarket and we'd be contacted regularly to take certain products off the shelves due to one potential danger or another. Problems will always happen with food. The liklihood of these problems affecting you are miniscule.

Ohhhh yeh...I never thought of that grovel

Soloman it's a reasonable question when you put it like that! But no, it's not necessarily obvious what 'meat' was referring to - I have several veggie friends who refer to Quorn products as 'meat'.

I like meat. So I eat it. End of story really.

I like meat

I like it sooooooooo much, I sleep in a meat bed and bathe in a meat bath

I roll around in it for pleasure, I wear dresses made out of it (am not Lady Gaga)

I paint it, and I caress it, before I eat it

you don't do these things ?

If humans didn't eat meat there would be no cows or sheep - well, not the domesticated breeds anyway.

I like meat.

I'd eat horse.

I don't think I could eat hedgehog, badger, elephant or tiger so I guess I've given those up

<helpful>

Assuming this is about the horse meat scandal OP, did you know they eat horse deliberately in some countries?

And I suggest not watching I'm a Celebrity... Although personally I'd rather eat horse than watch that anyway!!

I think tiger might taste quite nice. Elephant looks a tad tough however.

Bogey.

Someone on a thread the other day asked "why do humans think they have to be the head of all species."

It made me laugh. People are actually going round wondering how we got here!

Makes me think of 'special stuff '

I will happily eat any kind of meat served up for me. Meat is meat.

I understood that meat will become a lot more expensive in the future, due to the cost and availabilty of grain etc I foresee that we will all eat a lot less of it than we do now.

desinewed meat, horse meat, no tracebility, donkey meat, anymeat, beaten horsemeat,
When would a stomach turn?
Personally I fucked it off in '86 at the start of the BSE crisis. <boak>

See the horse/donkey aspect doesn't bother me, obviously I'd rather it was labelled correctly but I don't see any difference between eating a horse and a cow. I'd rather eat horse than sheep. I quite like sheep.

I ate a reindeer in Sweden around Christmas time. It was really lovely.

Yabvvvu I love meat and will not stop eating it, after all we are omnivores. I don't buy value stuff but good quality meat

I always say if sheep, cows, chickens and fish didn't taste so nice I wouldn't eat it.
Im married to a butcher so alwayd get the best cuts cheap.

good for you, OP

smashing

now where did I lose that fuck I am supposed to give ?

I avoid mechanically recovered meat but I like meat meat.

It dosent stop me eating meat but I don't eat the real rank stuff.

My stomach isn't turned by there being horsemeat in cheap lasagnes and the like because I don't eat that shite anyway.

It's not that hard to only eat good quality meat that hasn't travelled all the way across Europe and had God knows what mixed with it.

I think if the world ran out of meat I might stop eating it, but I can't guarantee that.

You don't think veggie food is contaminated with meat?

Oh yes Pickled, reindeer is nice. I've tried all sorts but I think the best meat I've ever tasted is kangaroo. Unbelievable flavour.

I don't understand why anyone would not want to eat meat. Its apart of a natural diet plus it tastes good.
There is normally an air of smugness about vegetarians which is deeply unappealling.

As others have said, I make smart choices about my food and don't eat processed crap

In answer to the OP, nothing...

I'm really not bothered about the horse thing, I say this as someone who currently has Python and Kangaroo in my freezer.

We are all meat eaters in our house and love it.

I like to buy good quality meat, especially a nice piece of beef and yes I would eat horse meat if it tasted good and was free from any nasties.

Now where's that steak tartare I just prepared?

Now you see the thought of mechanically recovered meat does make me go a bit green - but then again there are few things in this world better than chewing on a lamb chop so I'm

Python?! Seriously? Wow, what does it taste like?

Would you tell a Lion to eat vegetables or a rabbit to eat steak?

We are omnivores! YANBU to not eat meat yourself but VVVVVVVVVU to suggest that others shouldn't.

But to answer your question - if you can make a courgette taste like a sausage I might consider it...

I like pointing out my incisor teeth to any militant veggies...they ain't for tearing tofu you know.

As others have said, nothing will stop me eating meat as I only buy / eat good stuff. Don't eat burgers and the like.

Now, back to my lamb curry (home made).

I think we should take a moment to seriously consider the OP's point - I personally am very concerned about the toxicity of the foodchain. I plan to start eating meat that I can be certain is free range and has only been fed a good quality diet that doesn't include other animals.

So I'm going to start eating vegetarians.

lol as you where

balia

sorry as you were!

I am thinking of going back to the days where we grew our own veg in the garden so I know a carrot is a carrot and potato is a potato, I would also like to buy a pig as I adore bacon butties but would get attached to the pig, my only option is butchers or vegetables.

I can't eat chinese food as it might be cat.

No idea how I am going live anymore....

Oh and HAM??? How can anyone not like naice ham?

Butchers for me steak is better there anyway just more ££

Shit now I forgot what the OP was....

Awesome post AF

"good for you, OP

smashing

now where did I lose that fuck I am supposed to give ?"

Let me know if you find that fuck - I think mine might be hiding out with it.

I like meat. Good meat isn't cheap, so we have smaller portions now. But ultimately, yum.

Can't beat a nice rare steak, or a bacon sandwich!

You fucked a donkey off in 86,op???

That explains everything...

I will never give up meat. Ever.
Morrisey and Russel Brand are vegitarians, I don't really want to be like them.

I keep dipping into the book 'Not on the label'.

It raises questions about a lot of shite that we eat - not just meat.

I've been toying with the idea of vegetarianism for ages,and I have to say that these latest revelations have finally tipped me over into stopping eating meat.

Narsty old meat

yuk

hate how specieist humans are, we can dominate, so we will and we will eat other species. Not just that, we will farm animals and treat them appallingly because we can and then put bits of them in a bap with a pickle.

vile

haven't eaten any of it for 30 years

I am going to start eating vegetarians

Now that's an idea...

I ate a findus lasagne last week and it gave me the trots.

nothing will stop me eating BACON

mine is from the free range pig farm down the road - the animals do not look like cows or horses, just happy, sniffy pigs

Sailor how about Special meat? aka the League of Gentlemen? lol
Can you handle it?

I think vegetarians get their smugness from not being murderers.
And being more evolved.
And knowing better.

Nothing will stop the stupid from eating meat, it is a proven fact.
I don't care what they do.

Not smug just wondering WTFUG!

It is not really about the fact people have been given horse meat to eat. It is about all the injections that horses are given that are fatal to humans. Now we have been assured that the horse meat used came from horses that had no such injections. But yet we were, in the first place assured that our beef was beef not horse so you know how much is actually true is anyone's guess.

Bubble - waaaahaaaaahaaaaaa!

As you were.

I don't know any smug veggies. All the ones I know go out of their way to apologise for themselves. My dh and dc eat meat (organic only) at least twice a week.

We all make our own choices.

Some of us make the wrong ones of course.

Fgging hell would human bushmeat be the brake

I eat meat because I haven't evolved as much as vegetarians.

I know lots of lovely vegetarians. In real life.

They are happy to rough it sometimes and visit me in my little cave.

More evolved?!
Seriously?

How pompous.

We eat meat. Good quality, locally reared, slaughtered and butchered. I have known the family who run the butchers for 20 years, and I'm very happy to buy our food from them. His wife makes the best steak and ale pie I have ever eaten.

hully your right i recommended some here used a company called meat mart recently because they wanted good quality meat
<shrug>

If the lovely Michel Roux couldn't make meal worms into a delicious alternative, I think it'll be a very long time before meat's off the menu chez ER.

AF I found your fuck and sent it to the far side.

HTH.

Also Paul McCartney is a vegetarian and look what it's done for him!

I love meat. I love going to my wonderful butchers, and planning on how to cook, and the smells that will be wafting through my house, and the delicious juice I can make gravy with and and ....*drools*.

No, definately not giving that up.

That's the real question of the day.

Where the fuck is any fuckers fuck?

af's a moron and people get what they deserve

brilliant !

I deserve a dress made out of meat ! I insist on it !

I would eat the special stuff. Even more so if Nigella Lawson creates a recipe for it

I guess I'm just an omnivore that likes the taste of meat... not all meat.

I don't feel superior to other animals, or veggies, a lion would eat me I suppose, a veggie might lecture me to death (not the nice ones I know).

I wouldn't ever eat quorn, but I adore most veggie food (and most veggies until they turn into twats and call me a murderer - I do not kill my own kind)... with a nice steak on top. Can't help it. I eat a lot less meat than I used to, because decent meat is expensive.

I am glad my fuck has been located. I was getting a bit worried about it.

Horse meat keks.

I am the female version of Ron Swanson. Nothing, NOTHING, can prevent me from eating meat.
Mmmmmmm, meeeeeatt.

My limit is probably piss flap, foreskin and eyelid dog burger with a cat intestine garnish. I probably wouldn't eat that.

I love meat. Quite honestly I'd even try human.

Pork posing pouch for OH perhaps?

bubblebrain (good choice of name btw) your post actually made me laugh. I know lots of vegetarians who are lovely polite people and don't object to me eating meat. Just as I have no objections to them not eating it.

And technically speaking as humans evolved to be omnivorous not eating meat as well as plants could be seen as a backwards step.

me luv meat <hits self with rock ..retreats to cave>

Please stop labelling us veggies as smug. The vast majority are, y'know, normal folk going about our daily business and just choosing not to eat certain stuff. I wouldn't dream of telling someone not to eat meat, yet I've had loads of people twatting on at me over the years - 'You'll make yourself ill if you don't get some steak down you', 'Bet you could murder a bacon sarnie', 'I bet you're going to lecture me now aren't you' (erm, nope) and my personal favourite 'Is that why you're so small?'. Yaaaawn.

Seriously, eat horse, cow, dog, whatever. Just leave me to eat my tofu in peace will ya.

Tbh if I was really really hungry I'd eat the cat.

But while I've got an element of choice,whether it is meat or veg I like to know (as far as I am able) what chemicals it has been exposed to,whether people or animalshave been exploited or ill treated in its production/delivery,how far it has travelled etc etc.
Personal choice,but I can't help but question what I put in my mouth.

Totally chairman I know loads if lovely non smug veggies and if course lots of meat eaters than are huge twats.

Hmmm steak!

Nothing in the world would put me off meat, top of the food chain and all that.

Surely it was the reason God made it taste sooooo good

The combination of anaemically proud smugfuckery and the other listless moaners asking not to be characterised as smug is amusing.

I only know 1 really insane veggie, actually vegan. FIL is bonkers. Used to have a go all the time about disgusting meat, used seperate pans to cook his stuff (which is fine BUT he used to really have a strop about having to do so). Even tried to force me to watch an RSPCA video about the awful treatment of cows. He was not impressed when at the end he asked me if I wanted to go veggie. I replied with no, but I'm hungry now so I'm off to Maccy Ds.

Oh but he still eats cheese, wears leather and uses products with animal in. Not a very good vegan! The rest of my veggie friends are respectful of my choices as I am of theirs, and make sure if I cook anything that they can eat it without having to cross examine me. Except FIL. I don't cook for him.

what I find amusing is that most veggies have made their choice from conscience, are largely quiet and apologetic about it, and yet STILL have to listen to defensive bollocks from animal eaters

Quite right chairman I get far more criticism for being veggie than I have ever given out to people who eat meat.

And just because (in this country) animal eaters are the majority - it sure don't make them right.

Defensive bollocks taste best sauteed.

Who's defensive? May as well be defensive about respiring oxygen, or being carbon-based.

Why do we attack each other's food choices.
I love meat, my niece is a vegetarian.
Neither of us are wrong.

It's because deep deep deep down they know.

Oooo I love my little kitty/ puppy/ hamster etc

But I'm gonna eat bits of a cruelly treated dismembered sheep/cow/pig

It's a difficult ethical contradiction to live with.

I actually cannot believe that Hully is vegesquarian. Has to be a DA/agent provocateur thing going on.

I will always eat meat. In fact I hope to one day to be able to buy my own land and raise our animals to slaughter. I think t'internet brings out the bitch in a lot of people. I don't know any rabid vegetarians or vegans in real life but on forums they come out in droves. Perhaps it's because they just don't have the energy in real life to be so dogmatic.

I'm vegetarian. I have no objections to any one else eating meat. I will even cook it for DP and the DSs if necessary - although I do hold it at arms length while pulling an exaggerated bleeeurgh face - but that's just because I hate the smell of raw meat.

Where does this place me on the evolutionary scale? Or am I some freakish evolutionary dead-end? [worried]

Don't have pets myself, I get fat if I snack.

Yeah. That's right. You all give a fuck about AF's fuck but who gives a fuck about my fuck? No fucker, that's who.

[sulk]

If people could eat a little less meat even,it'd go a long way towards feeding this world of ours.

bruxeur

I am a vegetarian.

I don't like specieism.

Never have.

Hully surely it's only an ethical contradiction if you wouldn't also eat your little kitty/puppy/hamster? As far as I'm concerned meat is meat and it's tasty. If I happen to be in Thailand and puppy is on the menu I'll take mine medium rare please.

In my last job I worked with majority vegetarians, I had been there 2 days, sat down to lunch around a round table with my new colleagues and opened my sandwich prepared the night before whilst they chomped on their vege sushi, only to find I had picked up the wrong lunch box and it was in face 6 chicken breasts!

Mortified is not the word....

They were very nice about it and each gave me a little bit of their sandwiches and sushi, I will never forgot that moment.

Yeah right. You are funny and energetic. This &#8800; veggie.

I don' object to people eating meat either (as said dh and dc do) because we all have to make our own decisions. But if I'm honest, I find it distasteful. Although am too polite to say so.

*fact not face but they were in everyones face

don't eat Lidl chicken breast even my cats turn their noses up at it

Good stropzilla, at least that's consistent.

&#8800;

should be the mathematical sign for "does not equal". Obviously this BB doesn't like Word charmaps.

I like meat - why should I stop eating it?

That is not a question that makes sense, choude.

Why should anyone stop doing anything they like?

Smoking, drinking, eating sugar, buggering choirboys...

Have eaten horse when I lived in France too - it was ok. Wouldn't go and buy it myself but I was served it at a friends so ate it.

Have eaten horse when I lived in France too - it was ok. Wouldn't go and buy it myself but I was served it at a friends so ate it.

But Hully there are perfectly sensible answers to those questions

so I suppose Chou wants a answer to hers along similar lines?

Yup consistent that's me . Unlike DH who, since owning a bunny a few years back no longer lets me cook rabbit stew. Bah.

But I stick by each to their own. I try to buy my meat as ethically as possible and don't mind paying extra for the humane treatment, if that's at all possible. I don't like the suffering caused, and I do think it's an all or nothing deal where you either eat meat or refuse all animal product including butter. That's just me though and I enjoy these things far to much to give them all up. I did try, but failed at chicken kievs.

...breathing, drinking water, existing at all...

All of these things impact negatively on other lifeforms.

I'm pretty sure it's the veggies who are conflicted about their position in the ecosystem.

Well buggering choirboys is illegal - the others aren't. So tell me why I should stop eating it if I like it?

Or is it just cute, fluffy, multicellular life we're supposed to care about?

The WWf's panda problem writ microscopic? In ketchup?

Snorted at buggering choirboys...that escalated quickly didn't it!

Don't get offtopic please, choirboy buggering can be discussed on the appropriate thread.

Some sef righteous views from the vegetarians. I like meant and will continue to eat it wether we like it or not

I wanted to say the nazis liked murdering Jews but thought it was a bit early in the thread for that

where is the self righteousness, piglet?

All carnivores eat other animals. Are the lions wrong to eat gazelles or are the birds wrong to eat worms.

It doesn't feel wrong to me that certain animals are bred to be eaten.

Mistreat animals are a different matter. Tis two seperate things.

What the hell has that got to do with eating meat hully

bruxeur, I also think we need to drasticaly reduce the population and be mindful of all other aspects of our ecosystem btw.

Would it make it better if I said I was happy to eat hamster/gerbil/puppies, Hully?

Then I could happily eat steak and bacon sarnies without being hypocritical

To me, tweasels, we are all equal (all species). I wouldn't like to be bred to be eaten.

Do as you would be done by.

yes mary

<peers through fingers nervously waiting for shit to hit fan for Nazi comment>

Personally I blame the meat for being so damned tasty.

<wonders why she always ends up arguing with the whole of MN.>

It's me that's odd, isn't it?

x-posted.

That's great then.

I have, in the past eaten worms (by accident), caterpillars (also by accident) and some indescribable shite that could have been anything in a Singapore food market.

So I will happily have fillet steak the next time some rich man takes me to a gourmet restaurant.

Fair point Hully, neither would I.

<off to reassess ethical values>

Might finish the Chilli off first though in case I have an epiphany.

Most f your posts hully, fine be a vegetarian that's your choice but don't start preaching and being so negative towards meant eaters.

good plan Tweasels

carrots are bastards

the orange fuckers

Nope, you have the courage of your convictions, you stick by them and have the ability to pick topics that will really get people talking. I quite like your posts!

Hully - where is the self righteousness, piglet?

"I think vegetarians get their smugness from not being murderers.
And being more evolved.
And knowing better.

Nothing will stop the stupid from eating meat, it is a proven fact.
I don't care what they do".

How about that bit of cuntishness, from just upthread?

Hully I think you have perfectly valid points.

Stand Firm!

And, whenever I see these threads I think of the fruitarian in Notting Hill, and wonder whether vegetarians are also species-ist. Do carrots feel pain? Should we be stripping baby peas out of their --mothers' arms) pods and freezing them .

Basically being at the top of the food chain has so many responsibilities [sigh].

I am giving my views and explaining them as is everyone else, piglet. It's strange (yet not) that you call mine "preaching" because they differ to yours.

And "being so negative" = saying that in my view it is wrong to eat other species. I don't really see how I can say that "positively"

Perhaps you could help?

Flaaaame waaars! I like flames, you can bbq on em.

Also yes, those bastard carrots really have forced their way into our diets haven't they, it was those evil feckers who spread the rumour that you can see in the dark after eating them.

lol at hully's epiphany.

Good bit of striking out there , not.

Thanks bruxeaur I'm on I pad so will take me ages to copy and pasts the relevant bits

Tis a bit goady this thread,

So I won't answer, apart from I just did.

<eats bacon sandwich>

"I think vegetarians get their smugness from not being murderers.
And being more evolved.
And knowing better.

Nothing will stop the stupid from eating meat, it is a proven fact.
I don't care what they do".

One post. And I wouldn't call it "smug," it's just someone's opinion is all.

It's a bit of a way back in the thread, but recently I keep seeing the argument that human teeth (canines/incisors) mean we are designed to eat meat. Have you ever seen a gorilla's teeth? They are closely related to us and have very scary, carnivorous-looking teeth, but they are completely vegetarian.

Gerrof, I not had no epiphany? I've had my views for over 30 years (old)

Personally I am species-ist against cabbage. Particularly boiled cabbage. It should be made illegal due to (a) cooking smell and (b) farting smell.

It is far, far more offensive than eating baby chickens.

Just as a matter of interest, Hully, why did you start on the vegetarian route? I'm asking because dd keeps muttering about going veggie - which is fine by me if going veggie means eating veg, not just omitting meat. She is already anaemic and won't eat leafy green veg, pulses or beans. So a veggie diet for her would be bread, cheese and the occasional potato

I dont saying that you are preaching "Hully" but you are being incredibly patronising.

Who the hell are you to say that my choices are wrong if I chose to eat beef but would turn my nose up at hamster?

Personally I think that vegetarianism is less to do with morals and more to do with superiority, but I dont criticise you for your choices, what gives you the right to criticise mine?

Well hully as humans we are omnivores so are designed to eat bth animal and plant, so why the hell should I feel bad. Mabey you shud crirpticse ther animals for eating meat

Gerrof, I not had no epiphany? I've had my views for over 30 years (old)

You have thought yourself odd for that long?

ignore typos, on the ipad

The thing is that NOW we have a choice. We used to gather a bit and kill the (very odd) deer, that was extrememly lean, ran freely and was not pumped full of steroids and antibiotics but hey ho...but NOW we can live perfectly healthily and well without dominating and eating other species and treating them badly. Evolution, gotta love it.

The opinion is stated as fact Hully and is incorrect and offensive. I am a murderer, less evolved, knowing less... I'm stupid. Pretty antagonistic.

Meh. Don't really have a problem with you though. Unless you defend that sort of twattery!

Exactly bogey,

Now, the people I really don't understand are vegetarians who eat fish. Or vegetarians who eat chicken [baffled]. Or seafood. They are really species-ist.

IMO nothing will stop the terminally dull and stupid from criticising the choirs of others.

Speciesism or whatever the hell it is?!

Would you have a go at a lion for being speciesist? (sp?!) No because it is doing what nature designed it to do in order to survive, and guess what....so am I!

CHOICES not choirs. FFS

aldi - I never notice that stuff, it floats overhead, I don't mind what people say and think, I consider what they say and then make my own mind up. It doesn't bother me though.

I think that if you think about it hard enough, eating animals isn't a nice thing to do. I likes animals and I think I can block it out and eat the cute little piggies because I live in my own bubble of ignorant denial.

It's the same one that allows me to drink lots of wine and eat too much chocolate. I just ignore the fact that I know it's not the right thing to do.

I am pathetic <weak pathetic face>

So after all that self pity I summise that I am a carnivorous veggie sympathiser.

Ah, soz gerrof, am with you now

Dragon to be fair, I criticise others choirs all the time. There are some truly AWFUL ones around here

hully I would uphold your right to be a vegetarian until my death (from meat-eating-induced cardiac arrest, natch)

but this thread (or at least the OP) is not in the spirit of that...is it now ?

be honest, chuck...I like it when you are honest

Well flip it round. If you animal eaters are perfectly happy and confident in your choices and behaviour, why the hell do you care what one lone vegetarian says??

But a lion isn't species-ist - it will eat any meat, from human to rat.

I think Hully's point is that we all happily eat beef and lamb, but many people (not me) would go bleurgh at eating fluffy kittens and pretty horses.

Personally, I would prefer to eat herbivores - so would be happy with anything from guinea-pig to elephant. I would prefer not to eat carnivores (I don't know why, competitive eating maybe, I will have to think that one through).

And of course, pigs are omnivores and I do like a bit of crackling.

<admits to double standards when it comes to bacon>

Nooooo hully - I meant your post "It's me that's odd, isn't it?"

Tbh after years of being a committed carnivore, I am quietly attempting to go vegetarian. I try to buy ethical meat but tbh I don't trust that it all is. And I am starting to find it hard to get my head round how animals are slaughtered.

But that's a persona thing, I won't judge others. I said that I was going to try and be meat free to dd and she said 'oh bloody hell'

Actually I found being a veggie & aspiring vegan to be far more of an ethical contradiction, because when you start really learning about food production, you realise that if you think being vegetarian or even vegan means you are not a 'murderer', you are absolutely DREAMING. Thinking that just means you have no idea at all about food production, and no conception of the myriad of products we absolutely rely on that are in some way derived from animals. Just because you don't see it happening in front of your face anymore doesn't mean that our lives aren't still intrinsically linked to our livestock.

If food scares put people off the product involved - tomatoes, watermelons, the nonmeat list is endless - we'd soon run out of stuff to eat. Yes, the system can be shit, but "meat" isn't the issue.

It's not about teeth, its about the digestive system. A gorillia might be closely related but a chimpanzee is marginally closer by a million years and its a nasty bugger, practicing infantcide, with the odd warthog thrown in for good measure

I raise my own meat. It has a lovely life. Until I kill it and eat it. (I outsource the killing bit, I must confess). I do agree that meat eaters are very divorced from the reality of eating meat, judging by the comments I often get about the eating of our pigs. Some people comment negatively on how we can possibly eat animals we have known, but they are never the vegetarians

x posts

the thing is...

meat eaters and non-meat eaters can be completely harmonious in their choices

I have a sausage...you have a carrot

all is well

this OP is upsetting the equilibrium

af - eh? what do you mean? Do you mean the op is goady?

I AGREE WITH IT

<nails colours to the mast and defies the world in a blaze of naked all colours gone glory. Or something>

I dont care what you feel is right for you, but I do take exception to being criticised for my choices when I dont criticise you for yours. That would be the same if we were talking about BF v FF, BLW v Purees or Knickers V Commando! Its called respecting others choices and you seem pathologically unable to do that.

I suppose I don't like to be accused of something I don't believe I am...

NotADragonOfSoup nothing will stop the terminally dull and stupid from criticising the choirs of others - I like this better, sounds far more profound

My stepson has been vegetarian for years, but he was vegan for about a year and I had no idea how difficult it would be to buy food for. It seems that animal derived products are in bloody everything.

Oh, yes, the op is goady. Hully may agree with the op, but that's because Hully is right.

<continues double standards, happily>

despite my attention-seeking posts about rolling around in meat, I actually eat very little of it

and have no issue with a vegetarian lifestyle

I do have issue with someone telling me what I should do though...which is what OP is attempting, by a strange sort of bollocks

Seeing as Hully has mentioned the nazi's, I'm going to throw in a BFvFF comparison <I've gone mad>

Meat eaters get all defensive and attack vegetarians because they know deep down that they are probably wrong. Formula feeders do the same to breast feeders.

You wouldn't be defensive if you were 100% behind your argument.

<I am a Goady fucker extrordinnaire>

<runs and hides>

<weeps at tweasels>

But Bogey, I am criticising your choice because I think it the wrong one. Do you want me to pretend I don't?

I have to say that I have one major problem with the op. And that's the spelling of eleanor, it's wronger than wrong to even think about typing ElenorRigby.

So for that reason alone, op YABincrediblyU.

mary, I concur with the spelling atrocity

How can we have interesting discussions and learn and think if we don't say what we think and be open to new ideas and thoughts? I have never understood the idea that thinking someone wrong = heinous crime.

AF, you have described how I feel to a tee. I eat very little meat, once or twice a fortnight at most, but what I do eat I enjoy. My best male friend is vegan and I love having him over for dinner as I like the challenge and he likes being given something other than mushroom risotto (which is even more joyless without parmesan!). I prepare meals that he and meat eating guests can both eat, taking what they want from each dish. No issues at all.

But I refuse to accept that just because someone has deemed their way the only way, that I should automatically say "Oh ok then" and do that!

yy the whole Eleanor thing is simply beyond the pail.

Nazis, FFvBF anything else we can compare veggie / non veggie to? Conspiracy v moon landing?

Do you mean cock?

But of course you don't have to bogey. Any more than I have to go and eat some pig encased in some odd condom-like skin thing. Sausage, that's the chap.

Ironically, you are now wrong with that assertion! My choice isnt the wrong one. Its just different to yours.

I dont tell you that I am right and you are wrong regarding meat, I say that I respect your choice to be vegetarian but that it isnt for me.

Yeah, I think it would be more 'good' to not eat any animals that have been killed for the purpose. I don't see any moral advantage to eschewing roadkill, for example, as the thing was dead anyway.

But I'm a carnivorous omnivore and not fussy about whether it's 'meat' or meat. I don't eat fast foods - never have - but I buy reformed 'ham' and even processed 'chicken' if there's nothing else. I don't care if my steak is cow or horse meat. I've eaten horse knowingly, and alligator and other odd-sounding meats.

Gorillas aren't completely 'frutarian'. They eat maggots & things.

I'm keeping a list of MN vegetarians, as they will be the cleanest, tastiest MNers to eat when the zombie apocalypse strikes.

Hully, I think you have perfectly valid pants, too!

Hully, I suspect that thinking someone is wrong = fine. Telling them forcefully that they are wrong, stupid and like nazis = not quite so fine.

Personally, I don't mind. Because I know I'm right, so it doesn't bother me who tells me I'm wrong, I just rise above it [superior]

Let's not forget buggering choir boys

er, 'be a very quiet discussion forum if all the people "100% behind their arguments" didn't feel the need to reply bit of a cop-out there....

any of the people who think we have evolved past killing animals know a damn thing about how their vegetables and grains are produced?? you think no life is taken in that process at all? please, do some thinking, or researching, or something. Being veggie is fine by me, but it that is so the wrong reason if that's why you made the decision.

The Op didn't want a sensible discussion though.

Her title was goady. IMVHO.

Valid pants? [arf]

Laughing at Garlicblocks approving of Hullys pants...

<cries at valid pants>

Our digestive system can digest anything, including meat, but we don't need meat to survive, like actual carnivores. Being omnivorous means it's our choice what we eat.

I was just pointing out that posts like this

Add message | Report | Message poster Nancy66 Wed 13-Feb-13 19:03:22
I like pointing out my incisor teeth to any militant veggies...they ain't for tearing tofu you know.

are rather meaningless because having incisors doesn't mean that we are carnivores - our teeth are rather more modest than some natural herbivores. In fact I'm pretty sure human teeth would be rather ineffective at ripping apart freshly slaughtered wildebeest or whatever, but that's what you get from millions of years of evolution and the invention of tools, agriculture etc.

I'm not a vegetarian because I can't stand mushroom straganoff!

So the vegetarians, just like food will have eaten plenty of greens so we don't have to? Damned considerate tbh, if I turn to cannibalism, I want a decent organic fed person to munch on.

how about roadkill ?

fair game ?

runs..............

Couldn't give a rat's ass what other people eat. Never understood why people like to get up in arms about other people's diets.

I am a (little nibbly type) carnivore and I love mushroom stroganoff !

By being open to new thoughts, do you mean asking for examples and then dismissing those offered BECAUSE I SAY SO LALALALALALALA

?

I know BigBo, but two wrongs do not a right make. And you can't fight all fronts on one thread.

My choice isnt the wrong one. Its just different to yours.

This.

I am bright enough to be able to accept other people's choices are different to mine and to respect those choices.

Acksherly, you have a very good point there BigBoPeep.

Veggies are also species-ist - they don't like cows being killed for meat for people to eat. But they don't mind caterpillars and snails being killed to stop them eating lettuces and cabbage.

<ponders>

All humans are animal-murderers. The only difference is size of animal, isn't it?

Imo yes AF but I am wrong, so you're probably better off ignoring me....

come on now, sensible types

OP was a Goady Fucker

do we lose our ability to spot them when personal choice rears it's ugly, ugly head ?

Shirley Knot

I didn't ignore it Bruxeur, I disagreed that it was "smug"

Just to deviate slightly - is it just me or has anyone else noticed that nowadays,as well as being more expensive, mince seems to be far fattier and more pumped with water?

I'd like to think that just avoiding processed meat would be adequate,but I'm afraid any trust I did have in the quality of our meat has disappeared in a puff.

Can't say I've an awful lot of faith in many other foods either,though....

I have never felt the same about roadkill since the Top Gear episode in the US somewhere where they allegedly found a (rotten) cow on the side of the road.

Can we get back to pants?

How is it decided who has valid pants?

maybe it was goady, af, but it's still an interesting discussion, no?

Cuntish, then.

I have no faith in food at all any more

I take my calories in liquid form

Nice mince is really expensive.

Reminds me of the minge thread.

This won't be derailed will it.

I'm trying very hard.

FrankWhippery has found a new bat you know, shall I fetch it

I laughed my head off when RH said "I'm not peeling it"

I buy my mince at the butchers these days Squeak. He picks up proper meat-shaped meat and puts it through a mincing machine.

garlic's on pants duty. You'll have to have a word with 'er, bogey

hully, I am still here

but mainly to take the piss, it has to be said

Why Pickled is nice minge expensive too?

I stopped eating scallops because I became allergic. They're smart, scallops, damn smart.

But I love flesh. Frog is my favorite and there isn't an animal I wouldn't try. If god didn't want us to eat animals, he shouldn't have made them out of meat.

I thought it was fun, anyway. I've gotta go do interesting things with pulses.

Are you taking the piss AF . I thought this was a serious thread.

Is nice minge what you get with valid pants?

Can we eat it

I'm getting a pet lentil too.

What's that fing ?

Weak and thready ones, I'm sure.

Yes AF it appears is my future.

Ho hum.

<vows not to read anything about wine production and its quality/ethics...>

The only interesting thing you can do with pulses is stuff a dead vegetarian with them before putting them on the BBQ!

That was my biggest issue with being veggie - I was upset cows died, but if I wanted to subsist on veg, the caterpillars and teeny soil life could happily go f&ck itself. Then I realised that if I was subsisting on veg, the cows would become my enemy and at the very least I'd have to fence them out and they'd starve to death. And I wouldnt mind lions stalking my cabbage patch, but what would THEY eat if the cows had all starved to death? So I'd be responsible for pretty much the death of EVERYTHING except my cabbages.

It wasn't a vision I liked.

arf

Admittedly bits of dead jockey in the horseburger might start to make me think twice.

<< Snorts >>

hully is there much meat on that rump of yours ?

<eyes gluteals lasciviously>

<salivates>

My butcher has always buggered off home by the time I finish work,*Maryz*.

Busy catching nice fresh cows for the next day I expect.

Seriously,you're right - that's the way to do it!

Was in a restaurant once with a load of pissed up work colleagues and we'd pre-booked a large table, waiter comes out to check if any vegetarians in the party (set meal). It was met with the reply ' Nah, we've eaten 'em mate ' from one of us, followed by howls of laughter, only made worse and prolonged by the waiters catsbumface.

You had to be there really.

I'll get mi coat.

Yes, BoPeep, it's very complicated this eating business .

is definitely the answer.

What about if you kill the animal yourself? Is it ok to eat it then? I would be limited to rabbit, trout and pigeon though.

Rabbit ??

I love rabbit

Not had it for years

Isn't the issue more to do with the capitalist pigs (sorry pigs) who are committing fraud?
I will not stop eating meat but might stop eating 'meat' but that's difficult as I can't see us not eating salami, meatballs or sausages.
I'm more annoyed that the money grabbing bastards have done this.
I'd like to be a vegetarian in response but it's not going to happen, however, I will make more of an effort than I already do to eat less meat.

I do think a lot of meat eaters are very dismissive of veggies. Went to a restaurant once, and the veggie option (yes, THE. Only 1) was the non veggie roast dinner with the meat taken off, but the meat gravy left on! Not veggie as I already said, but even I didn't go there again after the look that was given by the waiter when we asked if the gravy was vegetarian.

Wasn't Hitler a vegetarian? That would explain the "I'm right and you are a damned infidel who must be excised from humanity" attitude of some of them rofl

I'd eat frankie detori annoying man.

Dh needs to go shooting anyfucker - I've ran out of rabbit. Lovely slow cooked (its wild so always slow cook as I can't be sure how old it is)

don't worry, the money grabbing bastards have veg sewn up aswell: spraying foreign peasants with what's banned here, eroding soils aways to nothing, exporting water from countries that really need it over here and so on and so forth...

Comparing eating meat to smoking, drinking and buggering choirboys isn't exactly a fair comparison...
Smoking, drinking (excessively) and buggering choirboys are bad things. Thus implying that eating meat is a bad thing.
It isn't.
It's natural.

The treatment of animals is poor and something that needs to be combated by the government. As consumers we can help by buying more conscientiously.

Animals being treated badly isn't a good reason not to eat meat - just make sure you ethically source your food. It's like saying that you refuse to wear clothes because Primark exploits children in india to make theirs.

Oh no TheSeventhHorcrux. I refuse to wear clothes because I enjoy being nekked and freaking out the neighbours.

sod waiting for the government to do something! The food system will go where the money is, so sponsor the bits you like 3x a day every day and it will HAVE to move that way. Nothing will stop animal/foreign peasant abuse/soil erosion/water exporting quicker then cutting off it's blood (money) supply.

I will stop eating near when veg tastes better. Or at least my ability to cook it improves.

I hate courgette and abourgine and they sneak into all veggie dishes!

veg is great

on the side of my meat

You don't have to use those prissy little quotation marks. It's still meat, it's just equine and not bovine.

Veg is there to soak up the gravy with.

Veg on the side of a roast is great and even roasted veg, but there ends my ability to cook it. If I turned veggie I would be serving up bowls of country veg (carrots, peas & broccoli) for every meal. Not appealing.

Stropzilla now THERE'S an image!

entjournal.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/devil-in-disguise-the-unethical-practices-of-monsanto/

I don't understand how vegetarians can justify their practise with the "ethical" argument and still happily eat dairy products.

At least vegans have cut it all out

Sorry...that's probably enough to put you off eating ANYTHING!

You've got a good point, Seventh.The cruelty of the dairy industry is absolutely staggering - from an animal welfare point of view, vegetarians haven't got a moral leg to stand on. I should know - I was one!

Is organic milk any better ?

(clutches at straws)

<clutches pearls> Won't someone PLEASE think of the carrots?!

I'm not sure, squeak, I imagine it has to be somewhat better but at the end of the day cows don't naturally produce milk all of the time so there is some kind of fiddling going on there.
I heard rumours of impregnating cows and then aborting repeatedly to keep the produce up but I have no idea whether that is true or not.

the continuous milking makes them think they are "bfing" isn't it?

Once I found glass in my organically bought veggie burgers.
And I love meat.
So there.

So basically when it comes to knowing what is in your milk,organic is better,but when it comes to ill treatment of the cows it matters not.

Can't seem to get over how bloody awful soya milk tastes though.
I even tried almond milk recently - equally bloody awful.

Actually being a vegan isn't much better than being a vegetarian as animal products are in everything and where you'd least expect them. Such is the cruel world we live in. There is no getting away from them.

Meat is disgusting and that's why I don't want it in my body. You eat it if you like, I don't care what you do.

Meat isn't disgusting. Eating meat doesn't make you disgusting. Equally not eating meat isn't disgusting.

You know what is disgusting? Saying people are stupid, murderers or unevolved because of their dietary choices.

I think what you mean, bubblebrain, is "^I think meat is disgusting^"
To put it that way isn't derogatory to anyone, we would want to infer people are disgusting, would we?

Mmmmm love meat - don't eat processed stuff much though - mostly stick to free range/organic. I love food generally and will give most things a try. I love the fact that my kids will also try anything and don't have any issues about any foods. It makes travelling (and life in general) a lot easier and more varied.

It's bonkers how seriously people take things on here. If people call me smug (based only on their knowledge of what I don't eat) my natural response is to be a smug as I can possibly be just to annoy them.

Meat is disgusting, that's a fact. Have you not seen it being manufactured on the news lately? It's not just my opinion. I've heard hardened steak lovers in the last couple of days say "yuk, it's disgusting". I don't think all meat eaters are disgusting. I know of some perfectly nice ones.

'I would rather be vegetarian or pescatarian than eat non-free range or organic meat and chicken. '

and you think that if it has been so easy to pass off horse meat as beef , the meat you have bought marketed as 'free range and organic' always has been ?

Nah I love my meat and will continue eating it despite what certain people say about it.

piglet - statements like that always make me think of cordelia gummer.

Socharlottet - organic meat is fully traceable back to the farm so yes!

Meat is disgusting, that's a fact

No, that is your opinion.

shallweshop but not by you!

Supermarkets repackage stuff as organic all the time.

Well hully thats how i feel. Yes i agree veg is there to soak up the gravy with a nice bit of meat on the side

I think vegetarians get their smugness from not being murderers.
And being more evolved.
And knowing better.

Nothing will stop the stupid from eating meat, it is a proven fact.
I don't care what they do.

If only they made judgypants out of leather.

I'm not sure, squeak, I imagine it has to be somewhat better but at the end of the day cows don't naturally produce milk all of the time so there is some kind of fiddling going on there.
I heard rumours of impregnating cows and then aborting repeatedly to keep the produce up but I have no idea whether that is true or not.

Dairy farming is a cruel thing

They don't abort the calves, they take them away from the cows within 24hrs of them giving birth...leaving some cows to wail (literally) all night for their newborns.

The males will be slaughtered for veal and the females raised to live the same miserable over milked life as their Mothers.

This is why people who claim to be vegetarian due to an animal welfare angle, confuse me totally if they're happy to consume dairy products.

WL, that is why I've recently given up dairy products. Knowing how the milk industry is perpetuated actually made me feel absolutely horrified. I couldn't believe that was happening so I could have a glass of milk. I don't even like milk that much. It just didn't seem justifiable to me.

It's not just meat, and being a vegetarian does not necessarily protect you from food safety issues or controversy.

For example: a large percentage of the worlds peanuts originate from China - where they've been fertilising the peanut plants for centuries with human excrement.

Human waste as fertilkiser , nay nay and thrice nay!

They've been using in the UK for years, so when you go off to your organisc markets, just spare a thought for who has been shitting on your lentils

www.thisisdevon.co.uk/Human-waste-used-crop-fertiliser/story-11747379-detail/story.html#axzz2Kr2DX3ix

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/sewage-safe-as-farm-fertiliser-1531329.html

and you think that if it has been so easy to pass off horse meat as beef , the meat you have bought marketed as 'free range and organic' always has been?

The horse meat has been in processed foods. it would be far more difficult to pass off horse in a pure meat item like a roasting joint. I assume it tastes quite different on its own with no their flavourings to mask any taste difference.

The reality is that yo can never be 100% certain where any of your food comes from be it organic carrot or chicken. The vegetables you eat could have been grown with shed loads of iffy chemicals and have "faked" organic credentials.

I agree with NotADragonOFSoup. I get my meat from local suppliers- at the farm shop you can see the pigs outside and the sausages etc inside on the counter. The answer is not to give up meat but to know where it comes from.
A lot of vegetarians are very removed from the food chain and happily eat dairy products without the foggiest bow milk is produced! They have no idea that people who spray cucumbers have to wear protective clothing and breathing apparatus!

The trouble is, the supermarkets round here have killed off all the local butchers.

My local butchers is now a mosque so the nearest butchers to me is a fairly long bus ride into town...hence the reason I have to rely on in store supermarket butchers.

Ironic that there should be spam on a thread about not eating meat

Bogey!!

I think vegetarians get their smugness from not being murderers.

Actually if you drink milk you are responsible for the death of many calfs. I'll do you a favour then and eat the odd piece of veal.

But then again, acording to certain prolifers I'm a murderer for taking the pill.

Most male milk calves aren't slaughtered for veal. They are just slaughtered.

True, Pip, which is why I support the return of veal. It's great that Brits rejected white veal so completely - due to the animal abuse involved in producing it - but pink veal comes from young bulls, whose mothers get to nurse them for at least a few precious months. No farmer likes shooting new-borns. If the market for pink veal recovers, they won't have to.

I know it's been said before, but can I just reiterate that intensive farming for pulses, grains and vegetable oils causes immense human suffering, ecological damage and wildlife extinction?

No matter what your diet or what species you are, eating causes harm to other life forms. It's the food chain, innit. As humans in a developed country, we have the luxury of choosing a diet that fits our circumstances and moral priorities.

Me, I enjoy eating meat and am aware there wouldn't be ANY friendly cattle or charming lambs, if not for livestock farming. My morals would be happier if there were less wastage - if all meat carcasses were skinned for leather, for example - but the fluffikins argument cuts no ice with me because it's illogical.

Is there any point in saying that humans beyond the age of 7 shouldn't drink cow's milk and don't need dairy?

If we were all vegetarian we wouldn't keep big artifical herds of cows and milk themn and slaughter their babies.

If we were all vegetarian/dairy free there would be no cows at all.

Anyway, give me butter over hydrogenated fats any day. Then there is cheese...

We could keep just a few for our descendants to point and marvel at. Or let the wild breeds come back and roam the prairies.

I think if we're killing animals then we should really try to make their lives as good as possible, kill them as humanely as possible and then use as much of the carcasses as possible.

Very little pink veal is sold in supermarkets, nor do they sell much offal. It's so wasteful - similar to throwing away up to 40% of harvested fruit and veggies because it doesn't meet specifications on appearance.

You couldn't let the wild breeds back, Hully - they'd eat all the veg! Then you'd have to resort to killing and/or eating them ... oh, wait

If I couldn't buy locally produced organic meat. I would stop then.

I would happily eat horse though.

They don't have veg on prairies, just prairie grass, they're welcome to that. Narsty old prairie grass.

Vegetables have feelings too.

vegetables communicate, it has been measured. I don't know if they have what we mean by "feelings"

But if the entire human population stopped eating meat, it would be necessary to produce a lot more grain/pulses/veg. Because for many people a lot of their calories come from meat and that would need replacing.

So in fact, if everyone went veggie, then veg farming would have to become much more intensive, to supply the necessary quantities.

Of course, what we really need to do is drastically reduce the population of the world, so we can all live on what we can gather from hedgerows etc. But then the problem of birds/small animals eating from hedgegrows would be huge, so we would have to kill the animals eating our food (rabbits etc), and if we kill them we might as well eat them .......

Civilisation could start all over again .

And my convoluted message x-posted with garlic!

Mary, I have to be honest and say I know that isn't the case, and I know it's all possible, but I have forgotten the facts and figures and haven't got the time to look up all the detail! I understand anyone that thinks that is an easy get out, but if you are really interested, all the research is out there.

True, Hully! Plants experience spikes of hormone/electrical activity when a neighbouring plant is cut. Some researchers have called it a scream ... <really can't face thinking about this now>

I know...

grovel - if people didn't eat meat then farmers wouldn't rear these animals so I'm a bit about your comment that we might as well eat these animals since they are just going to get buried anyway.

I've just remembered that rearing animals for food uses a lot more land (for grazing) than would be used for grain production.

Good plan, Maryz - kill 90% of humans to make intensive farming unneccesary!!

Worryingly, I know vegans who think it's a good idea. They never seem to consider the implications, not even the logical progression that would lead to killing the creatures that eat food we wanted.

Come to think of it, this has to be the quintessential first-world problem, doesn't it?!

rearing animals for food uses a lot more land (for grazing) than would be used for grain production - Yep, is why meat provides higher food value, gram for gram. The animal's already converted the energy from the plants it ate.

Narsty old prairie grass.

So you are speciesist!

Is it (more) okay to eat meat if you don't care about fuzzy wuzzy hamsters and kittens?

I mean if I am fine with eating kittens then am I more or less morally reprehensible?

you are consistent yet sadly revolting

I worry a lot about cows. Clearly a lot of cows have lead reasonable lives involving grass, farting, shitting etc. that they would not have done if humans didn't find them tasty.

So if we can kill the animals humanely (not saying we do atm) then isn't some life better than none?

who can say? the cow? us?

I am actually fine with eating anything...insects, kittens, those fish stick things that could essentially be anything....even vegetables sometimes.

you are consigning a lot of proto-cows to non-existence by advocating vegetarianism...don't you think you should decide if that is morally sound first?

I think it is.

What is the controversy about Veal really about? Is it just that the calves are so young?

hully So you think it is better that cow never lived than that it should live, be killed humanely and then eaten?

Sorry, just read Worras post and answered my own question.

I presume the reason she put 'meat' in inverted commas is because what you are actually eating is the chopped up muscle and connective tissue of a murdered animal. Mm, nice.

I think the answer to your question OP is sadly contained within the replies on this thread. Some/many people are too stupid, greedy and selfish to ever stop eating meat.

Even though the meat industry is the single biggest contributory factor to climate change from all the millions of farm animals who produce toxic gases that harm the environment.

Even though there is absolutely nothing in a meat based diet that cannot be got from vegetables with the exception of vitamin B12 that can be taken in supplement form.

Even though you are contributing to the pain, suffering, and torture of thousands of defenceless animals who have harmed no one. Animals who feel pain, emotion and who want to live. Animals who often suffer horrific, painful deaths just so some selfish fuck who likes the taste of their cooked flesh can shove their bits of their poor chopped up bodies in their mouths.

Even though we are not 'meant' to eat meat - our physiologies resemble those of a herbivore far more closely.

Even though you are eating not only dead animal but all the hormones and crap that their bodies have been pumped with to make them good and fat so you can eat them.

Eating animals is morally wrong. There is no need for it, and it IS disgusting - you are absolutely kidding yourself if you think that taking the dead body of a mistreated animal, cutting it up and cooking it and putting it in YOUR body is anything short of cruel and disgusting.

I won't go into the dairy industry here as this thread is about eating meat, though I am a vegan. It makes me so angry and sad that so many people are too thick and greedy to face up to the horrible and cruel truth behind their food and continue to support the appalling cruelty behind their food - organic, local, it's all inhumane so don't kid yourself that just because it comes from Waitrose it's OK.

I know I'm wasting my words - as I have said, many people are too selfish to change their eating habits. But if you really, really believe that eating meat is OK, I dare you to watch this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=odgldsDVDis
T
hen see if you stand by your dietary choices.

And if you do, by the way, you're a heartless bastard and I despair of you.

No, wannabe - the controversy about veal is the way the calves are treated.

Even I (who would happily eat guineapigs and horses) would draw the line at veal, expecially the way it's raised in places like France.

I'm in Ireland where I see most cows and sheep having a fairly (relatively) decent life, and I do avoid most processed meat with added dodgy gunge. I hate the idea of barn-reared cattle as much as I hate the idea of battery hens.

Hully, sadly (and pathetically) I don't really want to know the facts and figures. I suspect if we knew the facts and figures there are few things we would eat and few medicines we would take (that's a whole other story, the animals used for pharmaceuticals).

I am far happier to remain ignorant, like 90% of the population.

Everything that lives, dies.

If you live a pleasant life and die painlessly, and can have no knowledge of anything beyond your death (assuming there is no cow heaven, or indeed any sort of heaven), then how can that life be ethically wrong with respect to never living at all?

If we make the argument about humans, living in a logans run society of euthanasia at 40 years, does it become ethically wrong to have a child knowing that they will die before their natural life span? Or would each life have positive value in spite of it's early termination?

I have to say, that it is pretty impressive that we have managed to have a civilised discussion about this, considering the polarised views!

It could have descended into a real bunfight.

ICBINEG, I would be happy for anyone to eat me when I'm dead; I would (double standards again) not be so happy to be killed to be eaten, unless the alternative was my children

oops, that should read "my children starving, in which case they are welcome to kill and eat me".

"But if the entire human population stopped eating meat, it would be necessary to produce a lot more grain/pulses/veg. Because for many people a lot of their calories come from meat and that would need replacing."

That's not true, because currently most grains are being fed to that 'meat'. Between 75 & 80 percent of soy goes to cattle for example.

I'm vegan because I don't think we're entitled to breed animals to commodify their reproductive systems and kill them simply for pleasure and profit.

I would eat roadkill if I fancied it, and would kill and eat an animal if I would die otherwise. Neither apply.

ICBINEG" then isn't some life better than none?"

I don't understand this. If something is never born then it won't be bothered about having never been born. How is that a consideration for anything?
I can understand once something is born giving it some consideration.
Or are you saying that people would miss its presence if it wasn't born?

Cross posts with informed people. And that should say between 75 and 90%.

I think vegetarians and vegans are wrong. If they stopped being so silly about eating tasty things, then there would be no need for nasty meat substitutes wasting precious resources on packaging. Everyone should go to their local butchers and pay a fair price for good quality meat that has been well treated , and boycott cheap nasty supermarket crap. We should all demand veal and thereby making it a viable alternative to simply shooting and wasting male milk calves. The dairy industry would improve and we can all have tasty bacon for breakfast. Vegans are the selfish ones. If more people demanded better quality of life for animals that would improve things, not just refusing to buy it which drives people to produce more cheaply so they make more profit.

And as for the environmentally sound argument, I hope you never ever use transport other than foot.

Ok that's a bit more aggressive that what I really feel, which is that everyone is entitled to their opinions but calling meat eaters selfish and stupid is a bit OTT. We are not stupid, we KNOW how meat is processed. Funny how we must listen to veggies and respect their opinions when all meat eaters are evil and thick. That's not respecting my opinion is it? And no, if you don't like it that's just fine but tough. Your opinion is no better than mine just because you think it is. We have different values that's all.

I bet the vegetarians/vegans on this thread will not like being called stupid for their opinions...

Hully who can say? The cow? Us?

you could make that same argument about the feelings of plants

I don't eat meat.

I did read somewhere once that if we didn't farm cows and sheep then they would have become extinct long ago.

Not sure what that adds to any or the arguments on here, but interesting thought (I thought at the time of reading.)

I don't eat anything sold as 'meat'. I eat animals from my butcher that have been allowed to Roam about and be treated nicely. It makes them more tasty!

Interesting first post from veganvenelope

WTF would it take for people to stop eating 'meat'?

1. It becomes life threateningly risky to eat said 'meat'

2. Cross contamination with human flesh triggers necessary revulsion and turns people off 'meat' (see also 1.)

3. A creature comes along, bumping humans off their elevated position in the food chain. Creature eats humans and a revelation takes place that eating other animals isn't so great after all

If a superior alien species landed here and decided to 'farm' us in similar ways, I doubt we'd appreciate it much.

I eat meat and I have a scarf made of real rabbit fur

And when I said this thread was civilised, I hadn't read veganvenelope's contribution . I do so hate it when people feel so strongly about topics, but don't have the courage to post their opinions under their usual poster names [sigh]

I think most vegie fanciers are totally decent people.

Then you get the zealot types. The ones who start a crusade on their anti meat agenda. They preach about meat being murder and only buy "vegetarian" shoes, they insist on ruining your bacon butty lunch break by asking how you are enjoying your "murder" sandwich. Can I taste the fear of the poor pig in the meat I'm chewing etc.

I answer with a belch and tell them, its fucking amazing, here try some /shoves butty at vege-freak.

Like I said earlier, for some people their vegie opinions is extremely close to nazi'ism. Hitler was an angry man cause he never got to enjoy a nice salisbury steak....

gotta go out ICBINEG, will be back to pursue further

cool hully <Im not trying to be an arse - this is a genuinely interesting question to me>

As vegevelope said cows want to live...they want to reproduce. If we didn't farm them then neither of those things would be happening.

Is it better to have never lived at all or to live a truncated life?

Are cows aware that they are living under the threat of death? If not then the comparison to human farming is irrelevant. Human's would suffer during life simply from the knowledge that they are on the menu. I haven't seen any suggestion that cows have any concept of past or future or do anything other than live blissfully in the present.

If it is about animal suffering then we move to a system where animals don't suffer, not a system in which animals do not die (clearly impossible anyway as everything dies).

I have tried the vegan thing (inlaws are vegan) and I can't sustain it. Cutting out meat and not dairy is (IMHO) bonkers because it is the dairy and not the meat that is causing the suffering.

"Is it better to have never lived at all or to live a truncated life?"

If you've never lived at all, it wouldn't be better or worse. It wouldn't be anything.
But once you are alive, it would probably be better to live a pleasant life that's not truncated.

I've actually watched the video Veganvenelope posted. It's outdated, made by Peta and stars Sir Paul McCartney. It's so badly skewed it's not true and the only reason not to eat meat because of it, is because Macca has put you off your lunch. As far as I can tell, the video is pure propaganda, showcasing only the worst cases of animal abuse. Slaughterhouses and farming have moved on since then, and if anyone wants to link something a bit more subjective and modern, I'll gladly be open to watching it.

Meat is better for you than soya, which contains a whole raft of nasty chemicals: The Dark Side of Soy(a)

Soya is also just about the most processed food there is - the processes used to turn it into an edible foodstuff (apart form its natural form in tofu) is ridiculously complex and requires a lot of energy. Unfortunately it's used in so many food products these days it's virtually inescapable.

Bleh, Soya gives me horrible migraines. I have a slight dairy intolerance so I keep away from cows milk. Rice milk is the way to go!

Soy beans in their natural form? It's not tofu! They're edible (when cooked). Like most beans.

If we weren't meant to eat meat, why does it taste do damned good and vegetables invariably just taste bleh?

To me the issue is not about the meat, it is about processing it - and everything else that is processed and manufactured in our current food industry.
Processing is just an opportunity for the item to be altered to make it more palatable, last longer etc - and the main driver is of course cost. If a cheaper ingredient can be added, or some random product used to eke out the more expensive items then so much the better.
This is not limited to meat, it applies to vegetarian and vegan processed foods as well. Would I would like to be confident that all of the additives and fillers are necessary, safe and as described? Of course..
But I am not at all sure that food manufacturers have their eyes on anything apart from the bottom line.

Is this more recent Strop? www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/03/abattoirs-supermarkets-cctv-cruelty-welfare

Didn't watch the one upthread.

I think the biggest scandal will be when Findus start making their lasagnes with beef and people start gaining weight due to all the marbled fat beef contains.

You rarely see a fat pony, do you? <<Thellwell cartoons aside>>

I often salivate uncontrollably at the vacuum packed horse meat in my local supermarket. It looks lean and dark and wholesome......

Surely the biggest scandal here is not horse meat itself more the way westerners consume anything processed, genetically modified and injected (and that includes Linda McCartney products which contain more saturates than meat equivalents) without question, like remorseless eating machines.

Isn't the better route to buy good quality products from a reputable source, cook it well and eat a little less of it, whatever that may be?

Soy beans in their natural form? It's not tofu! They're edible (when cooked). Like most beans.

You're right of course. I'm referring to the highly processed stuff used in a lot of modern foods.

I have found a new side to Hully that I like and respect from this thread.

The meat industry is unnecessary for our survival and involves abuse. Even 'ethical' meat is questionable - shorten a creature's life because we can and want to, and because humans profit? I would like to tackle the 'demand' side of the industry.
Go vegan! ;)

Thanks for the link. Any acts of animal cruelty are horrifying, so it's good they're going to put CCTV up. I think that relates to my thread up post about rejecting meat not solving much, but demanding better laws to ensure better treatment. Unlawfully obtained CCTV is a crime too however, although not one equal to the mistreatment of animals.

When they start putting people in pies op

i dont pie ready made things so not worried really vook evey thing from scratch this is not about people needed to go opened toed sandled veggie its about peopel buying chicken cooking it then putting ito a pie themleves

We can campaign for better treatment in conjunction with cutting down our consumption of all animal products. The fewer that are bred, the better they'll be treated.

Isn't it odd how the most aggressive and antagonistic comments have been posted by those who consider themselves to hold the moral highround?

I agree that the animals should be better treated.

I will not become vegetarian or vegan. Ever.

As a former extremely carnivorous omnivore - that's what I said.

Army can I ask what changed your mind? Presumably you didn't just wake up one day and go "Meat's crap I'm not eating that again!" but you must have been aware for some time about the production?

I wasn't being flippant there, genuine question.

If 'you' enjoy kicking cats, and 'I' don't, I would not consider myself to hold the moral highground.

I would hold the moral highground.

Strop:

Loads of things. I was quite a defensive meat-eater for a bit before going vegan (lots of 'umm, rare steak, bring the cow' type comments) because I think I was processing information that I'd gathered over time.

Also, I was thinking about hierarchical structures in general (capitalism, white supremacy etc) and how powerful groups dominate because they can, and don't look to benefit anyone but themselves. Some will always abuse to keep the group dominant.

I thought about only eating 'happy' meat but I didn't always make sure (if eating out for example - my bad), and in fact I often couldn't really be sure despite how the meat was marketed.

And I don't need to eat animal products. No one in the West does. So I thought it would be easier for me to eschew them altogether.

A bit when I gave up looking for 'feminist' porn; still can't be certain of the ethics of it, don't need porn anyway.

You can probably make a sensible case for eating meat humanely if the industry were overhauled, but it wouldn't change the fact that meat is destroying the environment. Whomever said you can't say boo about this unless you travel solely on foot - why? Everyone has a carbon footprint, you try to reduce where you can. Meat is a big source. People have changed the way they travel quite a lot - meat has barely undergone any public scrutiny WRT environment.

Actually, our digestive systems, teeth etc have more in common with known Herbivores than either Omnivores or Carnivores!

By the way, I wouldn't even eat 100% guaranteed 'happy meat' now. Still don't need it, it would still have been bred just so I could eat it.

I think Paul McCartney answers this question fairly aptly: "If Slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian"

I have recently stopped eating meat, it took far too long.. I ignored my conscience (or tried to pacify it by buying free range) but I always said, if you are prepared to kill it, you should be prepared to eat it, or at the very least see it being killed! People are far too protected from the reality of consuming flesh, being allowed to kid themselves into believing it is perfectly natural and simply a 'product' manufactured without pain, misery and suffering. Its Not!

This is the reality.....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SySqTQCdTvM&feature=share

Thanks for that Army, eating out does give me something to think about. I normally get meat from my butcher who makes his own minced meat from steak that he's cut from the cow himself, having had it delivered from a farmer he knows. And there is a huge difference between that and the disgusting pink slop that passes for meat in the supermarket (where I can't bring myself to buy from).

But I don't agree that less people eating meat = better treatment. I would have thought that less people eating meat = less profit so no need to worry about treatment as it's too costly? I do think the only way is to tighten animal welfare laws. Given that we will never all be 100pc vegan or vegetarian we need better legislation in place. I'd rather eat no meat than poorly treated meat, hence using my wonderful butcher. But I'd never thought about the eating out issue. I shall now.

And Saski that was me saying about travelling on foot, that was me being sarcastic in response to another post.

Ooops! I meant, if you are prepared to eat it you should be prepared to kill it. Obviously! Sorry.

I thought about this thread while shopping just now. I used to be rich & buy all my meat from Doves, which happened to be down the road and has a huge reputation built on happy, healthy meat. Now I'm terribly poor, I shop at Aldi - which boasts higher standards than most British supermarkets, but I'm there because it's cheaper.

After giving the matter some consideration I went ahead and bought a kilo of frozen chicken pieces for £1.99. I'm under no illusion those birds skipped merrily around a grain-strewn barnyard throughout their truncated lives.

I am a horrible person. In my defence, my health requires a high protein diet. But I'm still horrible! I'd eat my cat if she was the only meat available.

Liza that video will have to wait til later, I have very young children in the room and I don't think scaring them is what I want to do right now! My oldest (5) knows where meat comes from and she will be made aware of more at an age appropriate time. If she chooses to become vegetarian I will of course support that. I don't believe in hiding where meat comes from, but I don't want to give her nightmares!

hi Army, good, you can do the facts thing I struggle with.

Strop - I don't mind you calling me stupid. I don't agree with you, but it doesn't affect me one way or the other.

Tough - I don't know whether to be flattered or insulted...

Sunflowers, overall the animal eaters on this thread have been a lot more "aggressive and antagonistic" than the veggies

ICBINEG - this stuff fascinates me too.

Yes of course the grain is fed to the animals...duh

Wish I had a memory

Liza80 rubbish wonder how many who work in aboutors or farms are veggie not many i would guess

My dd was a veggie from three until she was about 12. Now she eats some meat, but not all. I expect she'll revert eventually.

Meat should be costly. There's no reason for it to be produced so cheaply; we don't need it.

As it is, the demand for cheap meat (because we've been led to believe we're entitled to eat it/need to eat it) is causing much of the mistreatment of animals.

Domjolly: Possibly you're right, but only because they would become desensitised quite quickly.

Strop, Absolutley! No child should have to see that! Children are sadly more in touch with right and wrong, in that respect, then we have become as adults. Would any child knowing the truth choose to eat meat?

I think it's so sad that in today's world when there is so much money (there is!) that somehow human being have lowered ourselves and allowed ourselves to be fed shit. We now know that horses are in our food chain. What else is there that we don't know about?

The only good thing that can come out of this is that (very hopefully) UK farmers will prosper again.

Hully I wasn't calling you stupid. I'm not sure I called anyone that, and you very obviously aren't silly. That post was almost entirely tounge in cheek in reply to a post further up.

"If Slaughter houses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian"

Nice thought, but I'm much more horrible than Sir Paul! I've eaten meat after watching the animals being slaughtered. Worse (arguably), I considered this better food than meat from a shop.

<dons horsehair shirt>

So Hully would you have a kid if you lived in a society that enforced euthanasia at 40? <and ate the bodies afterwards...although I don't think that makes much difference...if you are going to kill me you should at least use the bits wisely>

I stopped eating meat a year ago but in all honesty for the last 10 years I've had times where I've really struggled with my conscience. I dealt with it by refusing to think about it and appeased my guilt somewhat by only buying free range, high welfare but eventually even this wasn't enough.

But I know that it's no good forcing my views on anybody else. It's a very personal decision and took me long enough to get here.

I'm sure I'll eventually end up vegan but its small steps for me and a gradual process.

garlic:
I'm dirt poor too
That's why I don't often use the environmental arguments: I can't say I'm genuinely choosing not to drive/fly - I can't afford it anway!
I do find my diet to be relatively cheap and I think healthier than eating chickens.

Liza it's got nothing to do with knowing the truth, and being in touch with right or wrong, she's not at an age where she can process what she's seeing. Children don't need the truth about a lot of things. This is one. For now, she can enjoy the benefits and pleasure of eating meat without worrying. She can choose when she is able to.

Interestingly I know a vegetarian couple who have a son they have bought up veggie. He has been shown all the vids at possibly too young an age, and it has desensitised him to suffering. He has chosen to eat meat now. Pushing too hard one way or the other clearly isn't a good idea!

liza80 would children eat meat if they knew the truth?

Well it depends on the truth they have been brain washed with.....

Given kids toys, wallpaper, curtains, books etc. are covered with the LIE that all animals are furry and lovely and cuddly and cute then I guess they would think eating them is wrong.

But that is a LIE.

A toddler would no doubt fail utterly to believe that a lion would eat them on the same basis.

In cases where the truth is that animals are food (and in developing countries / lost amazon tribes this is a necessary truth) and children are brought up to see them that way, I doubt the children would refuse meat on the basis that it was dead animal....they would already know that!

and I agree with the poster above who said that meat should be more expensive. Of course it should.

A roast chicken (very probably a cared for and healthy chicken) used to be a special treat. It's rubbish nowadays, lead a miserable life, pumped full of hormones and drugs.

The world has gone crazy.

I carried on eating meat after watching 'slaughter' videos etc, I just got more and more defensive about it. It was my behaviour that triggered me to think. I was acting like people who have no argument re porn consumption other than 'I like it so it isn't bad'.
But that's only my own personal journey. It's good to question yourself from time to time.

'It was my behaviour that triggered me to think'

That's not meant to imply meat eaters aren't thinking!

That's why I don't often use the environmental arguments: I can't say I'm genuinely choosing not to drive/fly - I can't afford it anyway!

Me, too, Penguins, exactly! Still, I sometimes take comfort in the fact that I'm now a very low-level polluter. I don't even fill a bin bag a week these days. You must glow with environmental purity

My farmer friend (not factory farming) tells me cows get upset when they're going to be slaughtered, while sheep placidly follow the leader to their doom. This simple discovery would lead me to eat a lot more lamb than beef, if only it weren't so expensive. I limit the amount of pork I buy because I don't like intelligent animals being farmed in pens; it bugs me since pork's good value, food-wise. Hens are grumpy and stupid, so I don't care much about them ...

... see, I said I'm horrible

Strop:
I think Compassion in World Farming is a good charity for info about choosing products carefully, if you don't want to give them up (yet ;)).

Dom, slaughterhouse workers have to become desensitised to violence, and studies are recognising the problems this can cause. The staff turnover can be as high as 100% annually and I would imagine that a lot of ex slaughterhouse workers are vegetarian!

www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_slaughter//2819//

Thanks Army I will look at them.

Hens are not grumpy and stupid! Well, not all of them.
And I'm sure you get the odd sheep that doesn't follow the flock.
Animals all have different 'personalities' and intelligence levels.
I once had an exceptionally clever budgie.
So there

Desensitised is correct, I saw a recent video on the news where they were laughing at a day old calf crying for its mother, then they shot it. You have to be evil or desensitised to do that.

You make fair points, Penguins

And your budgie wouldn't even make a decent starter!

Strop, I disagree, children are more able to process what they are seeing.... They see a chicken walking around clucking and then to be told that that is what is on their plate for Sunday lunch is distressing!
I think society has brainwashed us into not making those connections. Of course we all know it, and many meat eaters are fully aware and accepting of the truth, but there is a large section of society that refuses to make that connection, buying nicely packaged meat and refusing to consider what is is and how it got there!

Everything we do has some negative impact on something. The argument of not eating meat because we dont need to and it possibly leads to the abuse of animals even with ethical choices is unfair.
By that argument we couldn't do anything - only holiday locally where you can walk or cycle because driving or flying harms the environment. This is okay because you don't NEED to go on holiday.

(Im not supporting that we don't need meat btw I'm just using the example)

If we stopped doing things because they had some kind of negative impact on something else then we literally wouldn't be able to do anything.

I had the budgie when I was a meat eater, and I reckon I would have considered her for a starter if she hadn't been such a genius.
Just kidding.
I think.

I don't know Liza. I'm happy for her to see a chicken, then eat it. She knows what meat is. I'm NOT happy for her just yet to see how it gets from cute clucky thing to roast. Yet. She has a thing about death right now, and that would result in crying for days. I remember how I first felt when I found out about how things are done, I was about 10. I wanted to become vegetarian but my Stepmum laughed at me and told me not to be silly. Any younger I would have been traumatised but 10 would have been the right age for me to make my own decisions. As it was, I was tempted back by chicken kiev!

I agree with you with the brainwashing. If you're not prepared to kill it then no you shouldn't be eating it. I am, I do. Although DH has suggested steak for dinner...and now...

But I'm not giving up cheese!

ArmyofPenguins - sorry to shit stir but you refuse to eat meat on a moral basis but are happy to keep a bird in a cage for your own pleasure?

(sorry! Being an arse I know)

Icbineg, absolutely! I agree. I am now far more conscious of the books etc that my little girl reads. I believe she was born a vegetarian, (I believe we all were!) and I must confess, we were constantly encouraging her to eat meat, although she didn't like it. Because we had been brainwashed into thinking 'meat is good for you' you must eat meat to be healthy'. Rubbish! We now have adopted a vegan diet and she has never eaten so willingly and so healthily!

Ps. I am new to this, so apologies if I'm not responding to everyone.. still getting the hang of it!

Nah, you're not being an arse.
I wouldn't keep a budgie now, unless it was a 'rescue' bird and I had ample room.

That's true, Seventh, but some people do 'tread more lightly on this Earth' than others and it's a laudable aim.

There are so many other considerations, though; it's never black-and-white. Soy farming's a shockingly heavy burden on the Earth, for example. Unless a veggie sources all her foods with meticulous care, she's supporting comparable environmental damage and ingesting as many unpleasant chemicals (perhaps more, in Europe, as USA-style meat enhancement isn't allowed here) as a meat eater. But she's being kinder to fellow mammals, no doubt about that.

If we had to farm our own diet I'd be dead anyway. It's labour-intensive work and I couldn't produce enough nutrition to generate the energy. My most aggressively vegan friend had to stop herself taking this thought to its logical conclusion and pronouncing me better off dead!

Yes strop. I really think most of us would choose to be vegetarian if we were allowed to make a free, realistically informed choice without being influenced by the conformist nature of society!

Strop, my parents made sure we saw animals being farmed, milked & killed. I strangled me own chicken at around 10yo. Admittedly, my parents were weird but I think this was more usual for my generation than later ones.

garlic:
Most soy is produced to feed cattle.
Humans need less of it. It's a waste of resources to eat them 'second hand'.

Liza - I am making my free, realistic, informed and in influenced choice to eat ethically sourced meat.
Eating meat does not mean you are uninformed or influenced.

*uninfluenced
Sorry on the phone!

"I strangled me own chicken at around 10yo."

That must have been upsetting.

Strop, I don't think that's weird at all, I think it is a far more moral and realistic way to raise children and eat meat.

The seventh, what I mean is that if you were to make that choice as a child before meat was shown to be 'normal and acceptable'

I know that some meat eaters are fully informed, but I think it is almost impossible to be uninfluenced in todays society.

Also, seventh, I applaud you for eating 'ethically sourced' meat. That is a very positive decision and one that I too made before deciding to stop eating meat altogether.

Just one question, do you raise, kill and prepare that meat yourself? Or have the opportunity to see it being done?
I hate to play devils advocate when you clearly have morals about what you eat. But I have come to question 'ethically produced' meat and dairy products. The guidelines set out, are not quite as one might think... The term 'free range' for example can still be used for very restrictive living conditions which could arguably considered a poor standard of living.

We used to have a subject called 'Rural Studies' when I was at Secondary school (it was the first 'Community School' in the country and it did trendy subjects like that. Mid 70s). As well as learning how to grow vegetables etc, we also had chickens to look after and we had a demonstration, by the teacher, of how a chicken was killed: he wrung its neck in front of the class. He also showed us how to off a rabbit the following week, followed by a practical demonstration of skinning said bunny.

I don't think that could happen these days.

I was informed as a child by a lovely trip to a slaughter house with school. My mother also worked in a slaughter house as a student in the 80s so I've been aware of processed foods to.
I chose to eat meat. Mainly because I liked it. I'm an animal lover but also a realist. Dogs eat meat and don't stress over whether they have considered the rights of their prey. Yes we are more able to make a conscious choice than other omnivores but do long as the animal doesn't suffer I don't see the issue.

My mum worked at a SAUSAGE FACTORY not slaughter house. Sorry, slowly going mad today.

Liza - I would be able to raise and kill my own meat, if I had to. And if it was practical to me then I would prefer to raise my own meat and grow my own veg etc because, yes, there are doubts over the reliability of packaged foods. I wouldn't enjoy killing animals an prefer not having to do so but I see it as necessary and enjoy eating meat.

And you're not being devils advocate! Im enjoying the debate! It's very fascinating. And, as someone else has said, great that it hasn't fallen out to a bun fight!

Yes we had a slaughter house trip as well. I also had a Saturday job in the local Butchers - the connection between the animal and the meat was always very clear (I used to hate washing the ox tongues in the sink - weird!) I'm omnivore by free choice and will continue to be so.

ICBINEG - would I know anything other than that that society was the norm?

'so long as the animal doesn't suffer I don't see the issue'

That is my biggest issue! The animals do suffer more often than not!

I have only recently become a vegan.. I never in a million years expected that I ever would! I wanted to become a vegetarian, or at least only eat meat that I had personal responsibility for the welfare of (knowing this would drastically reduce my meat consumption, and I have long believed that if we are meant to eat meat, it is certainly only in small quantities!)

The reason I chose to stop supporting the dairy trade is because having looked into it, I realised what a cruel, unnatural, industry it really is. Milk is only produced by cows for calves and those calves are more generally denied their mothers milk, and indeed comfort (the basic right of any living creature!)
If having your new born baby taken away from you is not suffering I don't know what is!

Sorry, I know this is about meat, but I feel that dairy comes into the same category (animal exploitation).

Hully: overall the animal eaters on this thread have been a lot more "aggressive and antagonistic" than the veggies
That's nonsense, Hully, no one accused veggies of melodramatic murder, or stupidity, or being less evolved or greedy or selfish and repulsive.
The worst thing thrown at them was that they sounded a little smug.

Garlic you strangled your own chicken at 10?? Wow. Credit to your parents for being hands on. I'd do it if I had to, but I'd feel terrible. We've been thinking about getting chickens. DH would eat the eggs, but wouldn't eat the bird.

I've been and got my steak! I wanted to know about the place it came from and my butcher told me all about it, including the name and address of the slaughter house. Oddly he also said he'd been for a visit but that it had upset him!

I asked DD if she knew where beef came from, and explained a little about it. She was momentarily upset when I used the term "you kill the cow" and said she didn't want to eat it, but changed her mind again when I said it was already dead and she didn't have to kill it herself. Then I got a very enthusiastic "Yess! It's tasty!". Still a little young to understand I feel.

We have differing perceptions.

I'd rather talk about the subject than the who did or didn't say what. That's when it stops being interesting and turns into a stupid fight.

Strop, it's funny isn't it? Mine have known forever what and how they are eating. I have always called it minced cow burger, or skin stuffed with dead pig etc. while dd never ate it before now, ds couldn't have cared less. he used to grin and say "dead pig is yum" the psycho

Seventh, Penguin & Son - Killing the hen was unpleasant but the point was (and is) that we should know what meat is. You can't make informed choices about eating meat if you've never thought beyond the tidy oblong in a polystyrene tray.

We were also obliged, in secondary school, to watch a film about mechanically recovered meat, which is why the recent spate of videos on Facebook hasn't shocked the arse off me. I've avoided the stuff as far as is practicable (to me) but I use it occasionally. I feed my cat with it. As I prefer the whole carcass to be used up, I can't have ethical objections to it.

Liza, if British people would start buying pink veal the calves wouldn't be killed so soon.

www.ciwf.org.uk/farm_animals/cows/dairy_cows/default.aspx

Commodification of reproductive systems. Killing the animal when it's no longer 'productive'.

Nah. Don't like it.

I've been and got my steak! I wanted to know about the place it came from and my butcher told me all about it, including the name and address of the slaughter house. Oddly he also said he'd been for a visit but that it had upset him!

Wow, Strop, impressive! I think you should give your butcher a swift plug on here

Hully, it's funny how we don't call the meat after the animal. Nearly all other languages do.

Hully, it's funny how we don't call the meat after the animal. Nearly all other languages do.^

But we do - in the French that the Normans brought with them. The animal name is Anglo-Saxon, the name of the meat is the French for the animal.

Inspired by something someone said upthread about animals not being lovely and fluffy in nature, did anyone see that David Attinburgh programme where the baby elephant died?

Apparently there are an increasing number of complaints to the beeb every time they show a nature programme with baby animals being killed and eaten by predators.

I suppose, the way I think it, most animals (especially natural carnivores) are pretty nasty about the way they catch and kill and eat meat. But they do so in order to feed themselves and their young.

Therefore it's natural for us to do so <justifies eating fluffy lambs, happily and in a non-speciesist manner>

And we used to go down the west of Ireland, where dd would look out the window and say "ah, look at the cute lambs" and ds1 would say "did we bring the mint sauce".

Mine have always knows where meat comes from, and how it's killed. They are all happy to eat it, probably because I am.

He's pretty good garlic. Always knows the details of the animals that come in.

Hully I know what you mean, I do usually say what we're eating. Burgers become mulched cow. DD finds it amusing.

I'm a meat eater. Having said that, I try to eat free range meat from small producers who don't use intensive farming methods (luckily, I have a few friends who are small scale farmers). I also try to eat as much of the animal as possible - pigs ears, kidneys, livers, oxtail etc. I can't say I stick to this all the time - but when I can afford it, and it's possible, I do. Apart from anything else, the meat tastes better.

One thing I've always wondered - why is it considered to be more cruel when we farm animals, feed them up, and then kill them humanely, than if we didn't farm them and let nature take its course, which means they'd either die of disease, or be prey to some predator - both of which strike me as worse ways to die, although more 'natural' I suppose.

Murder is, by definition, the killing of another human being. Using the word to refer to the killing of animals is inaccurate, and that annoys me

Well, IMO, you have very convenient "perceptions" then. It certainly doesn't incline me to give your opinions much weight when your perceptions are so blatantly partisan.

I remember being upset as a child about meat and trying to go veggie but my parents wouldn't let me.
In my early twenties I went vegan for two weeks (I can't remember my reasons!) but I didn't know how to eat that way and gave up. Became almost embarrassingly pro meat-eating.
Then slowly I began to become defensive when encountering vegan arguments, questioned myself, and went vegan again - this time with more information. Internet has recipes and stuff.
So I must have always been thinking about it all at some level, since childhood.

"why is it considered to be more cruel when we farm animals, feed them up, and then kill them humanely, than if we didn't farm them and let nature take its course, which means they'd either die of disease, or be prey to some predator "

Because we breed them in such large numbers in order to make the most profit. Killing wild animals for our own survival would be a different matter.

Hully, it's funny how we don't call the meat after the animal. Nearly all other languages do.

Chicken, fish, lamb, rabbit, pigeon, pheasant... isn't it about equal whether they are recognisable animal names or derived from the French ones?

"Killing wild animals for our own survival would be a different matter."

I'm not being antagonistic here, but could you explain why? Hunting an animal surely causes it more stress than a captive bolt to the head would, or electrocution even? Is it better to allow animals to die (slowly) of disease, injury or starvation than to keep them safe and well fed until we want to eat them?

Yeah, I've just trawled through translations of various animals & meats in various languages (am putting off work!) English and French came out evens - we use a different word when the French do - while Danish, German and Italian stick to the name of the animal.

I made an ill-conceived point. Procrastination is the mother of weak argument, at least it is right now!

"Killing wild animals for our own survival would be a different matter."

I don't see this as clear-cut. It implies that it's okay to kill for food as long as it takes a big effort. I find that slightly bonkers! Do you reckon a businessman who's paid £2k to go on a deer shoot has more right to eat venison than someone who bought it from the butcher? If I go and kill a duck from the river, am I more entitled to eat that duck than one I bought from Aldi?

There's a thought: my local river has ducks!

Nothing would stop me eating decent British-bred and reared meat from my local butcher, and certainly not some of the laughable assertions made on this thread.

As someone born and bred in the industry and who has spent my professional life within it, I'm comfortable with eating meat as described above. Are slaughter houses nice places? No - but so long as the animals are treated with respect, held in decent lairage facilities until their time comes, and correctly stunned, it's not cruel (which is not something I would say about halal and kosher slaughter).

We breed and rear our own cattle - they spend spring, summer and part of the autumn at grass then the winter in large straw yards with ad lib silage and a daily morning feed of concentrates. There's no abuse or cruelty, the cows and calves stay together until weaning at six-nine months, and they are slaughtered locally - we take them there ourselves and they go straight in, no hanging about. We're not hobby farmers either - we have hundreds of them.

Family members breed and rear sheep under similar circumstances; we have neighbours with free range chickens which have open access to several acres of land throughout the day and proper perch barns at night - again, not hobby farmers, there are thousands of them. Other neighbours rear pigs in large straw yards, hundreds of them.

No matter what the anti-meat brigade say, the majority of meat and dairy in this country is done ethically.. Are there bad apples? Yes, of course there are - and most of them get caught (unlike on the continent)

If we needed to eat animals, then killing them would be necessary. Obviously as humans we could try to do that as humanely as possible.

We don't need to eat them; we breed them in huge quantities for profit (mainly through artificial insemination). It's more cruel to start a life for the sole purpose of exploiting it.

we breed them in huge quantities for profit (mainly through artificial insemination)

Stats for that?

Because it was my understanding that most beef and lamb in this country is not produced from animals which have been inseminated to my knowledge and, no disrespect intended, I suspect I know more about farming than you.

The dairy sector does use AI widely, partly as dairy bulls are notoriously dangerous and difficult to manage in a system which requires cattle to be brought in and out to pasture twice daily.

As I sort of joked about earlier, if an alien species who were our 'superiors' invaded and started to farm us, then we wouldn't be best pleased. Especially if they didn't need to - they just could and enjoyed how we tasted and we couldn't do bugger all about it.
Some might be kinder to us than others, some might fatten us up or overbreed us using cruel methods, but as a concept it's distasteful. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.
The aliens would probably think our emotional reactions to being used in this way were not proper elevated emotions like theirs though. ;)

"The dairy sector does use AI widely"

Nah. Don't like it.

I think that, although we can survive without eating meat, it is in our nature to eat it - hence our teeth and digestive system, which are those of an omnivore not a herbivore. I'm wondering if the objection is not so much to eating meat, as to farming it, or does anyone see it as morally wrong to eat meat which has not been farmed - and if so, why?

LadyFT:

I don't like animals being exploited like this: you don't mind and indeed make money from it.

We're hardly going to agree, stats or no stats.

That's true, but I'd prefer if you didn't make untrue assertions which might mislead other people who are interested in seeing both sides of the debate

So, still saying beef and sheep comes from AI?

I would eat roadkill. Just don't fancy it. I thought when I went vegan from hardcore carnivore I'd be looking for ways to eat meat.
But I've gone off it. Tastes change.

I found your post reassuring, LadyFT. Thank you.

My apologies. Mainly in the dairy industry then.
But there are other concerns aren't there?
www.ciwf.org.uk/farm_animals/sheep/welfare_issues.aspx

Why do many consider it better to hunt than to farm?

Can I go and kill a duck now? It's nearly dark, I'll have to get a move on

LadyFT: "but so long as the animals are treated with respect, held in decent lairage facilities until their time comes"

Who decides when another creature has outlived its usefulness? I don't think it's respectful at all.

Still, I'm glad there is not overt cruelty on your farm.

I found your post reassuring, LadyFT. Thank you

You're welcome

I don't have a problem with people being veggie, vegan or whatever - their choice, perfectly valid whatever the reason.

I do have a problem with those people who choose that and then spread misinformation about livestock farming. The vast majority of farmers in Britain do care, and do adhere to high standards. No one should feel guilty for enjoying meat produced in those circumstances. We have an open access policy at our farm and welcome visitors to see what we do - we also encourage them to see the amazing wildlife we have on our land. Don't believe everything you hear about farmers destroying the countryside and abusing animals

"Why do many consider it better to hunt than to farm?"

If you're hunting to survive it is 'better' than killing to sell on for profit to people who don't need it anyway.

In my opinion.

ArmyofPenguins - are you inferring that animals understand that they are being farmed and have the same emotional reaction to it as a human would?
As a human, my life would deteriote rapidly through anxiety and stress and hundreds of other psychological illness due to the fact I knew I was going to be killed.
The animals bred to be killed do not suffer this.
x-posting what someone said above - they live happily in the moment, and the reason they are living is for us to eat them. If we didn't, they wouldn't be living their comfortable, largely stress-free, provided for lives. (This is for the ethical farms, obv)
The aliens argument is invalid.

Seventh, I understand your point about the veal, however, I'm not saying that a calve should have the right to live long enough to provide a profit as meat. I am saying that a calve should have the right to be with his mother and drink the milk that nature provided for him and him only!

Although, the fact that british people won't eat veal, I think, demonstrates my point that more people would stop eating meat or at least stop to think about where they were buying it from if they were more educated on the reality of it!

furrydog more often than not animals are not killed humanely (setting aside the point that humane and killing are direct contradictions!) but even if they were, it is the living part that is relevant... a wild animal that is hunted and killed has at least had the chance to live as nature intended!

Humans are survivors and yes, we will eat/drink whatever we need to in order to survive which is presumably the reason we first ate meat/drank milk. In todays world we do not NEED those things to survive we have many options available.

There are many examples of our resourceful ability to survive... The man lost in the wilderness who ate his dog, I don't think he continued to eat dog meat after he was rescued, having acquired a taste for it!

The man who dislocated his hip while hiking, and survived by drinking his own urine, I would imagine that he was happy never to have to do that again.

And the famous true story, documented in the film 'Alive' of the plane crash survivors who ate the flesh of the deceased passengers... As far as I'm aware none of them felt compelled to continue eating human flesh once returned to civilisation!

Yes, if it is essential to our survival we can and will eat meat and indeed anything available to us! But we are lucky to live in a world of more choice than ever before and yet we continue to exploit our fellow earthlings purely for the sake of our tastebuds!

LadyFT: You're hardly unbiased though.

I make no money from promoting veganism.

"As a human, my life would deteriote rapidly through anxiety and stress and hundreds of other psychological illness due to the fact I knew I was going to be killed. "

How would you know you were going to be killed? You wouldn't find out until you got to the slaughterhouse.

"ArmyOfPenguins Thu 14-Feb-13 17:34:29
I would eat roadkill. Just don't fancy it."

Roadkill - animals that have been killed as a result of human intervention. Most likely have died from their injuries, therefore suffered, rather than being killed instantly.

Is it okay to eat roadkill just because it wasn't intentionally killed?

Penguins, I just looked this up - out of curiosity and procrastination; I have insufficient knowledge to take a stance.

From https://www.gov.uk/sheep-and-goat-welfare

Castration should only be carried out where lambs will be kept beyond sexual maturity and it’s necessary to avoid welfare problems associated with managing entire males. Because of the risk of mis-mothering - which can lead to starvation - it shouldn’t be performed until the bond between ewe and lamb is established.

Castration should only be performed by a trained and competent person. The use of a rubber ring, or other device, to restrict the flow of blood to the scrotum - or tail - is only permitted without an anaesthetic if applied during the first week of life. Once a lamb reaches three months, castration must be carried out under anaesthetic by a vet.

If both tail docking and castration are necessary, performing both operations at the same time can minimise distress and the risk of mis-mothering.

The following practices are all banned by law:

penis amputation and other penile operations
tooth grinding
freeze dagging
electro-immobilisation

The answers to a lot of the questions asked are on the DEFRA website.

^My apologies. Mainly in the dairy industry then.
But there are other concerns aren't there?
www.ciwf.org.uk/farm_animals/sheep/welfare_issues.aspx^

Ah CIWF, that fount of everything true and unbiased. Not

Tail docking and castration is done with a rubber ring when the lamb is very young. The ring cuts off circulation and the parts drop off - I've done it and seen what happens. The lamb hops about for a minute or so (yes, there is some discomfort) and then it's over with as the area goes numb.

As for the mulesing - you'll note they say that happens in Australia, not here. Another reason to buy British.

Many ewes die during winter and spring because of poor body reserves to cope with winter and inadequate grazing. Many lambs are aborted or stillborn or die through disease, exposure and starvation

This paragraph is so ridiculous I hardly know where to start. If it were true, every sheep farmer would go out of business after a season. Do some ewes and lambs die? Yes, of course (as they would in nature) but most farmers go out of the their way to ensure ewes and lambs are kept in the best possible condition, and assist at lambing to help where problems occur.

Anyway, creating imaginary aliens isn't supposed to be realistic (I hope!), but more to illuminate the very concept of breeding other species for pleasure and profit. I do not think we are entitled to do this. Who do we think we are?

Fine LadyFT: you feel entitled to castrate lambs with rubber rings.
I don't.

ArmyofPenguins - "How would you know you were going to be killed? You wouldn't find out until you got to the slaughterhouse." - if this is the case then, fine. Would rather be killed quickly and easily by being shot in the head then in a car accident, for example like roadkill

Would I prefer to live my life all the way through? Yes. But then again, I'm human with the ability to scope out the future like that, different from an animal. Also intelligent enough to make the connection when everyone suddenly started disappearing at a certain age/weight and thinking something dodgy was going on, worrying about it etc.

LadyFT: You're hardly unbiased though. I make no money from promoting veganism

So what I says has less value because it's what we do? Or was that a polite way of calling me a liar?

ArmyofPenguins - no comment on the Roadkill though?

Animals are not aware that they are going to be killed?

Watch this please!
This is the least disturbing slaughterhouse footage I have found, it is in the UK and it is what we consider humane. (Tell me that sheep has no idea what is going to happen!!!)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V2T9I0QrL8

Blimey this thread's still going !!?

Liza - it's cruel that they killed the sheep so it knew what was coming. But that sheep lived its entire life up to that point in ignorance, so yes - animals are not aware they are going to be killed.

What about,

"I'm going to create a for-profit industry that at its least harmful involves, artificial insemination, castration and enforced premature death."
"Is the industry necessary?"
"No."

*its cruel that they killed IN FRONT of the sheep.

Again, with the slow oncoming madness!

The argument is not what they 'know' at the slaughterhouse but what they 'know' while living on the farm ie they don't run round the fields in a state of mental anguish because they overheard the farmer saying he was taking them to be killed next week. A human kept by aliens in a fattening unit (can hardly believe I just typed that) would 'know' because we have a concept of self and of future - neither of which, it is thought, animals have

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about AI, army - any particular reason?

The seventh the question of how that sheep lived up until that point is an issue. You cannot really say that it isn't aware it's going to be killed any more than I can say it is aware. That is one question we can only speculate on.

Haven't you heard the famous news story of the bull who cried? (google it if you haven't) prompting fully grown men, perfectly used to slaughtering animals to become emotional and actually raise funds to buy the bull, saving it from slaughter.

Ladyft, I've found your posts really reassuring. Thankyou. I just wondered if you'd provide a brief idiots guide to buying meat for someone like me that hadn't thought about it much before.

For example -you mention buy British. Before I'd just assumed that was to help our economy. It sounds like we have tighter controls?

Also is organic necessarily better. I've bought free range eggs before but don't actually know if organic meant safer or better cared for meat.

Similarly is a butcher the only option? Would an asda British organic meat be ok for example? I'm already leaning towards whole chicken and not processed stuff at the moment.

Basicall I'd like to buy meat that is safe to eat (not mixed with unidentified meat and safely reared etc) and ethicalish (fair treatment of animals at any rate)

Any guidelines?

Thankyou!

Can I just interrupt and say that I had my first ever SPAM fritter the other day and it was gorgeous.

As you were.

Liza - I can confidently say that they are not aware as they wouldn't be grazing serenely, interact happily with the farmer and walk trustingly to the slaughterhouse.

They would at least display some signs of anxiety or try to escape.

The bull who cried - when he was ABOUT to be slaughtered? Different story. I'm sure he was ignorant up to that point.

Since you are still around, will you do something about your name-spelling.

I'm sure you are very disappointed that we are being so civilised. GF's usually like their threads to kick off, so I apologise for letting you down .

Though armyofpenguins is doing her best to help you.

And it seems to me that where I am anyway most of the animals I see spend their lives doing what they would be doing in the wild - grazing and having young - but without the fear of natural predators.

Well done canIhave I have recently become a vegan but I have immense respect for everyone choosing to buy ethically, although as I mentioned before it isn't always easy to know how 'ethical' it is, despite what it says on the label.
However I do recognise that as a really positive step towards becoming more aware.
Watch out, you'll be going vegetarian before you know it! lol

I think Army is being very calm and reasoned. Whether you like what she has to say is a different matter.

I agree with everything you say Army.

Personally, I prefer buying from butchers, not least because most of the major retailers aren't much cheaper anyway for the decent cuts and they treat suppliers appallingly in some cases (which is what caused the horsemeat scandal IMO). I also feel the meat is a better quality in terms of taste, usually as it is hung to mature longer.

However, if you're buying from supermarkets then you can look for the Red Tractor logo - this logo guarantees the meat is raised to certain welfare and management standards. If the logo also has the union flag on it, it means it is British. There are other certification schemes for animal welfare - the RSPCA has Freedom Foods, for example.

Not all foreign reared meat has poor welfare - I've been to Argentina and seen beef reared in ethical systems, for example, but generally British standards are higher. There are also issues around things like clearing the rainforest in the Pantanal in Brazil to rear cattle on reclaimed pasture land - and all this means for the wildlife and ecosystem.

I don't believe organic is any better than free range in terms of welfare and taste. It comes down to personal choice - the only difference our cattle have from organic cattle is things like worming treatments, which personally I feel would be a welfare issue not to do. So I don't believe it is 'better cared' for per se than free range. Personally, I think battery produced eggs taste crap and I don't like the system, so we always buy free range. Organic is great, but if we organic globally, there would be a major food shortage problem - here on our farm, crop production would drop off significantly without fertiliser and pest control - and we have a mixed system of crops and livestock which supports things like soil fertility

I know a lot of people have concerns about meat at the moment, and my advice (and this is as a beef farmer) would be "eat less, eat better". I'd rather see people support butchers and farm shops (and the meat isn't always more expensive) and eat a bit less meat

I also think that Army is being very calm and reasoned - and I don't agree with what she is saying but most are being very respectful on here and that's great!

My post was directed at CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease btw

Seventh "I can confidently say that they are not aware as they wouldn't be grazing serenely, interact happily with the farmer and walk trustingly to the slaughterhouse"

I appreciate that you are more particular about the meat you buy but it is not always as you make it out to be. Serene, happy and trust are interesting words to use when preceding the word 'slaughterhouse'.
(however confident you feel, my point still stands!)

If the entire process of breeding and farming animals for meat was as you and many others like to believe than I wouldn't have nearly so much of an issue with it.

Furthermore, I know that the majority of farmers do show care and consideration to their animals (provided that profit is considered first) but as far as I'm aware farmers do not actually slaughter the animals themselves (?) I am open to correction on that if anybody knows better....

Slaughterhouses by there nature are abhorrent places! The people who work there have a horrific job to do, and compassion, empathy and kindness are not assets in a job like that.

What is a GF please?

Bringing the market completely back to Britain would be fantastic (not just for the beef industry either). It seems like a good idea economically but LadyFT has made me see the ethical and health considerations too. So thank you!

Can I just make one more point here, which I don't think has been mentioned.

Many of us (in fact probably most people my age) were brought up eating meat by meat-eating parents. As we learn most of our food knowledge and cooking skills from our parents (at least we did when I was small), we learn to cook and eat meat.

I don't know how to cook lentils, beans, nuts and all the things I would need to cook if I was to eat a healthy vegetarian diet.

And I know I could learn, but I can't be bothered because I like meat, and can cook good tasty food with it.

I think many people these days aren't taught to cook so eat ready meals and processed food.

Personally, I think that the only way we will change to be a predominantly vegetarian society is if in some way someone works out how to teach people - adults and children - how to cook cheap, quick, tasty, nutritious meals from vegetables. I have no idea how that could be done, but it might be worth governments having a look at it.

Interesting insight from LadyFT.
I think eat less, eat better is a seriously good mantra for those you choose to eat meat and those that do not.

I live near some very large sheep farms. You see the sheep loaded into those awful lorries to go off to slaughter and you listen to them. Those sheep know EXACTLY what's going to happen.

Furthermore, I know that the majority of farmers do show care and consideration to their animals (provided that profit is considered first)

Right - so if I wasn't making any money I'd just abuse my cattle? Please. We would make more money by packing them into sheds on slats without any straw bedding, but that will never happen while I draw breath on this farm

Thanks Theoriginal. Appreciate the reply. I might have to actually go into a butchers shop! I'm quite ignorant really about meat. Usually just buy bacon, mince and chicken. But I want to eat better and healthier and willing to learn!

Sorry to tangent the discussion!

I'm not convinced they know what's going to happen Hully.

I do think they know they are in horrible, squashed, smelly dirty lorries though. But I'm not in favour of giving credit to animals for the same type of sensitivities most humans have - they won't have read the papers and know where they are going.

Mary, it was probably easier for me because I have never liked meat, the only meat I could stand was chicken and as my mother did English food of "meat and two veg" VOM, it wasn't unitl I was 17 or so that I knew you didn't have to eat (I can hardly type it) braising steak casserole.

I learnt how to cook veg, pulses etc, I had NEVER even seen a pulse and the most useful book was Rose Elliot which had fantastic recipes and explained everything and how why what to eat. A revelation.

The other advantage of pulses is that they are so cheap. A large bag or lentils made into a curry with loads of veg and tomatoes would feed ten for a tenner.

Furthermore, I know that the majority of farmers do show care and consideration to their animals (provided that profit is considered first

No, hully they don't. They baa because they are leaving other flock mates, and going into unfamiliar surroundings, but they don't baa because they are going to meet their maker.

Our cattle moo and crap everywhere when we put them on the wagon to go out for the summer, or even when we run them up into the handling facilities to weigh them or adminster medicines. Anything which is out of their ordinary routine causes this response.

My horse whinnies when he goes on the horsebox to a show - I promise you he doesn't think he's going to Tesco a slaughterhouse

Liza - if you mean what you say in your post it seems like we are both, mainly, on the same page.

"If the entire process of breeding and farming animals for meat was as you and many others like to believe than I wouldn't have nearly so much of an issue with it."
- it seems like a lot of people here are actively seeking meat where the process of breeding and farming is ethical. Unfortunately its never going to be the case for every farm, there will always be exceptions. I won't stop myself eating meat because there are places out there that are unethical. It's like that lady who said she was not going to marry her boyfriend until homosexual marriage was legal worldwide. Or refusing to buy new clothes until all production is ethical and fair.

There will be some risk of upsetting the animals in the time coming up to their slaughter, though this can be reduced with consideration. It isn't a reason to veto the slaughter completely.

Slaughter houses are horrible places. As are funeral homes, hospitals and crematoriums.

Animals are much cleverer than we think, research continually proves it, they just can't speak, communication is totally different. We choose to think them "dumb" and lesser much as Christians thought we could treat them with dominance rather than dominion because they didn't have souls.

I like the Jains most.

HullyGully - no they don't! They're pissed off and scared because they are being taken from the field and put in a lorry! They aren't bleating "oh no, this must mean the slaughterhouse!"

A good butcher will explain about different cuts of meat getme - and very often now good farmshops will make their own ready meals with decent meat, or oven ready 'fast foods' like kebabs, good burgers, chicken parcels etc

I'd recommend a slow cooker - so easy to use (chuck in the meat and veg) ad you can turn cheaper cuts of meat into really delicious meals

Hully. I'm up for trying more veggie recipes. And I like lentils just don't really know what to do with them! Is that a book you'd currently recommend? I've ordered Hugh fernly whatnots veg book. Would like to get a better understanding of food and how to cook!

They do know. They know their mates went in lorries and never came back. And when they get near they smell the blood and then they really know.

Giraffe, all Rose Elliots are good, have a look on Amazon and see what one might be useful.

Maryz Im the only veggie that I know of in my Irish family.
If you really want to learn a new skill you will, I did.

maryz ABSOLUTELY! I totally agree! I am very passionate about cooking, and am loving the challenge of creating tasty meals without meat and dairy.
We really should be teaching our children the cooking skills that we have lost over the last couple of generations.
Aside from any moral reasons, a vegetarian diet is so much healthier! It is very easy to make a tasty meal out of meat, carbohydrates and minimal veg, but when meat is cut out, there needs to be more effort in providing taste and with this, meals automatically increase tenfold in health and nutrition!

the original If you weren't making any money, you wouldn't have any cattle!
I appreciate that profit doesn't always override welfare, but essentially profit is the first and foremost reason for breeding those cattle!

HullyGully - how exactly would sheep know where they are going? Can they read or understand human speech (to the extent of knowing "slaughterhouse")?

Animals are much cleverer than we think, research continually proves it, they just can't speak, communication is totally different

That I do agree with hully - I'm a big supporter of Monty Roberts methods, which are based on non violent ethical partnerships with horses, and we use them day to day in our handling of all the animals we have (not just horses). But that doesn't mean they know they're going for slaughter - how could they? How would they ever of heard of a slaughterhouse, even f they knew what the word meant?

they know they are going somewhere BAD that no sheep ever return from.

There's blood in those lorries?
I'm pretty sure the sheep don't look at the lorry and think "oh no, thats where elliott went last week, and he never came back, by the looks of it thats no cruise ship - he must have been taken to be killed! Oh no!"

Yes, we need a thread for "recipes for thickos who have never cooked proper veggie food but would like to give it ago - must be foolproof and actually tasty, and not try to pretend to be meat (so no tofu or other processed crap)".

I have to go and serve up dinner (roast chicken, sorry), but would love it if someone else would start a thread - if not I'll have a look later.

"I don't want to be a pie, I don't like gravy!"

Have a look at them Seventh. Just have a look.

They smell the blood at the slaughterhouse.

Hully I agree that animals taken to slaughter must be able to smell the blood of those that went before them

Tofu's, great Mary. You could build up to it gradual. Start you off with a nice dal.

^the original If you weren't making any money, you wouldn't have any cattle!
I appreciate that profit doesn't always override welfare, but essentially profit is the first and foremost reason for breeding those cattle!^

Not quite what you said first time round though, was it? The original implication was that farmers treat their animals ethically so long they're profitable - which conversely means they abuse them when they lose money!

The margins we make on the cattle aren't ones that any other industry would think decent - the return on capital is laughable. If we ran our business purely on profit terms, the livestock would go (as most have where we are) and everything would be crops - but we happen to value having them. They are bloody hard work, but interacting with livestock daily brings enrichment to our lives - it's hard to understand if you're not a farmer, but that's how we feel.

There is no blood in the lorries - the sheep aren't killed in the livestock transporter FGS, plus they are legally required as part of biosecurity measures to pressure wash and disinfect between loads.

theseventh Not very long ago we would have been on exactly the same page!
I preferred to reduce my meat consumption, in order to use my budget to buy locally reared meat from my butcher.
However lately, I have looked into the whole industry and am so disgusted by the things that are happening that I feel I now want to not be a part of it at all! It is the strongest protest I can make with regards to the worst practices in the industry. But as I say, I respect people who vote with their money for better welfare.

It's the people who don't give it a second thought, and don't even associate their meat with once living animals.

I also think the people who are disgusted at eating horse meat (but happy to eat beef!)are very hypocritical! Fair enough if they are angry at being misinformed, but thinking that it's somehow less ethical to eat one animal than another is ridiculous!

I would like to eat less meat, I prefer veggie curry.

Ill have a look at some of those, ta.

theoriginal I do believe that there are many instances where profit will override welfare in many decisions!
Farmers are increasingly struggling and I'm not saying all of them but yes, I do believe that profit will often take priority.

On every other thread I have read/posted on, the people at the sharp end of whatever it is we are discussing are generally deferred to as speaking with some level of authority. The disabled folk on matters that concern them, nurses/docs/midwives on medical matters, teachers on educational threads etc. etc. so how come TheOriginalLady is being given such a rough ride. She's the one who lives it.
The veggies opinion of us carnivores is neither here nor there, but to dismiss TOL'S frank and thoughtful insights into a working farm is arrogance, and would not be tolerated on any other thread.

LadyFT would you tell be able to tell me, how you can really care for animals with such diligence and then kill them.

One of the reason's I stopped eating meat 27 years ago was seeing a man raise a piglet, give it a name, fatten up to pig and slaughter and then eat the pig!

It still turns my stomach just thinking about it.

When you say you've "looked into it" liza80 - what does that mean?

Have you travelled round the country visiting farms? Talked to farmers about what they do? Because there are many, many farms around the country who are happy for people to see what they do - they're not show farms, they're ordinary working units.

Because when people like you make false assertions about how farmers are mistreating animals in the name of profit, I suspect a lot of the time that "research" is actually bilge from organisations like CIWF, or perhaps you just guess/make it up (as in army's false assertion that most of the meat in this country comes from animals which have been artificially inseminated)

Again, there are some bad apples - but the vast majority are not. Why not go and see for yourself?

theoriginal Although I grew up in rural areas, I am far from an expert on farming. I appreciate you are and I believe you when you say that you look after your animals. This article reiterates the point I am making and from somebody who is an expert in the farming industry!

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1300764/As-vet-I-weep-poor-cash-cows.html#ixzz2KpBJVXmR

LadyFT would you tell be able to tell me, how you can really care for animals with such diligence and then kill them.

Because that is what they are for - they are prey animals and we are predators, if you want to reduce it to basics. And because I know that our animals are treated with respect and care from the moment they are born to the moment they reach the slaughterhouse - I know they have lived a good life in that way.

There are many things which happen in this world which I couldn't stomach doing - I couldn't be a nurse, for example, and watch people die slowly and painfully from cancer and wishing they were dead rather than suffer so - but thank god there are people who can, and do so with care and kindness

Ah the daily fail - the paper which always tells the truth and never puts any spin or varnish on it

Humans are not carnivores! The argument may be whether we are herbivores or omnivores (and we have more in common with the former with regards to digestive system etc) but we are definitely NOT carnivores!

My question was why don't you see for yourself? Growing up in rural areas means nothing - I go to the city in London sometimes but I don't pretend I know how the banking sector operates

"treated with respect and care from the moment they are born to the moment they reach the slaughterhouse "

And what about after that moment?

Eleanor - there is something very disturbing about someone killing and eating a pet. Naming an animal borders on these lines.

I would not want to kill and eat my pet rabbits - why? because i have developed a psychological attachment to them and to kill them would be upsetting. In the same way it would be upsetting to, i don't know, smash down a house that I had built/designed. But i don't get upset about other houses being knocked down (unless there is an upsetting circumstance) and don't get upset about rabbits being killed (humanely)

Chimpanzees are omnivores, but they are still predators - one doesn't preclude the other

"And what about after that moment?" - they get killed and eaten. Mainly quickly and with the view of causing them the least amount of pain a suffering. Because that is why they were bred and raised in the first place.

Have to put a few crazy things right here!

our digestive systems and teeth are more like herbivores? which ones!? Show me the herbivore with a digestive system even slightly resembling a human's? We are most like pigs, confirmed omnivores, and have a highly acidic stomach, short gut etc like carnivores. We share some tiny similarities with some herbivores, which points to an omnivore diet at best...

we don't need to eat meat in the west? We don't need to eat veg either. one thing's for sure though, we have to eat something from the selection available, and living in the west doesn't magically make food appear from thin air - it has to be grown and manufactured the old fashioned way, same as it always was. Just because you can't see it anymore doesn't mean it doesn't go on. And I hope those enjoying their manmade fabrics and vitB12 supplements are volunteering to live next to the factories that make them, and have good ideas about where to get the oil they come from without any environmental destruction, and deal with the waste responsibly....

dairy cows are not milked continuously - even the most intensive systems will milk 3x in 24hrs, and that's pretty rare as the low price of milk doesn't really justify the resources and laour used for a third milking. There are milking robots now which allow the animals to choose when they are milked and the average number of milkings in 24hrs is 2.7ish I think. Some places milk once a day, and most places will dry a cow off after 9 months and she will have a 3month holiday (how much holiday do you get?). They will often suckle their calves naturally for at least 8months, sometimes right up until calving, and some cows which produce too much milk to be dried off without serious mastitis problems may be kept in milk.

They are also 'allosucklers' which means they will share milk (hence having 4 teats despite only having one young to rear at a time, unlike sheep, goats etc which have 2 and two teats) so a human taking the extra is not too big of a jump in imagination: presumably why cattle were among the first animals to be domesticated and have been such a success since. Early humans had very little on their side - no handling systems, no horses to ride at that point - and were going up against beasts that could EASILY kill them if they so wished, so there had to be something in it for the cows to allow it to happen, where other animals didn't.

Wild cattle don't exist any more, we hunted the auroch to extinction, so if we let cattle die out it means their gamble in allowing themselves to become domesticated didn't pay off - we just gave them a massive slap in the face in return for their trust. nice.

'Most' male dairy calves are not slaughtered at birth, they are raised as 'bull beef'. There's no difference between a beef and dairy breed, veal does not mean 'beef from a dairy animal', it just means 'slaughtered when it would ordinarily be suckling it's mother e.g: up to 8mo'. A few are reared for veal (and slaughtered as babies) and a minority are shot at birth. Yes, that's no good, but you don't have to eat veal you can just eat beef and increase demand to ensure they have a longer life.

Pink/rose veal will not routinely be suckled by a mother - the mother is a dairy cow and they do not keep their calves for logistical reasons. They will more than likely be reared on milk powder which is made from the milk produced. Bit of a headfuc there, but until somebody comes up with a scale-able method of hygenically and effectively milking a cow with a calf at foot, that'll be how it is. Some producers do produce veal from beef breeds which suckle their mothers and are slaughtered early, so there's no garantee your veal is from a 'rescued' male dairy calf unless you ask, but it will have had a mother if that's important to you.

After that moment they go into the handling system and down to the knocking pen and are dead instantly - a matter of minutes. I go and see it - again, I don't like slaughterhouses particularly and I wouldn't want to work in one, but that doesn't mean they are all places of horrific torture and abuse

I would not eat a dog or cat. Not because they are cute, or fluffy, or any attachment I have to the breed - but because I don't think they would taste nice or have good meat on them. I've heard carnivore meat is not nice.

If I was literally starving, short of eating a human, I would eat pretty much anything.

cows and sheep and pigs are not prey animals.

My decision to give up meat is based more on what goes on in slaughterhouses that what goes on in farms!
My main concern is with the kind of meat used by fast food restaurants etc 'intense farming' if that is the phrase. As I said, before I gave up meat I chose to buy from 'ethical sources' which would probably include the farms that you are defending. My issue is with the industry overall rather than the farmers!

If I was literally starving, short of eating a human, I would eat pretty much anything

I might make an exception if the human was a veggie

(It's a joke, OK, don't get all cross - this has been a fairly intense thread!)

I accept that we evolved to eat meat. Our brains grew large and we dominated all, even our own kind.
But surely we should now evolve beyond such barbarism

Fast food restaurants like MacDonalds? Which sources British meat from farms like ... ours?

Oh hang on, unless you meant they are our prey. Grass is theirs (cows and sheep)

I agree Liza. Original, you sond like a lovely dream farmer, but the industry, the very idea of animals even being an industry, is anathema to me.

Much as I would love to stay, (this is an interesting and informative debate!) I have to go and cook some food now. Veggie Chilli if anyones interested!
Thank you all. May pop back later.

cows and sheep and pigs are not prey animals

Go on, then, what are they? <sigh>

see up^^

Cross posted hully - yes, I meant our prey!

macdonalds is an international company, I hardly believe all their meat is surced from british farms!

Yes, me too. It's erm steak for tea but I promise it is ethically reared!

Of course they are prey animals.

Their ancestors were prey to wolves and wild dogs.

Their wild equivalents are prey to all sorts of carnivores.

Domestic forms are prey to humans.

It's the same thing - in all of nature, herbivores are eaten by carnivores, you see it in every food chain.

"cows and sheep and pigs are not prey animals."

Cows - "In North America, wolves, bears, cougars and coyotes will hunt and kill calves and old and weak cows. In Africa, lions, hyenas, leopards, wild dogs, crocodiles and cheetahs will kill livestock. In Asia, tigers, crocs, alligators, panthers, etc. will also prey on cattle."

Sheep - are you kidding? Wolves mainly but coyotes and wild dogs... I bet a fox could take one down to (maybe )

Pigs - wild pigs are eaten by mountain lions, wolves, coyotes. Domestic pigs are also eaten by wolves.

x-post Maryz sorry!

I might make an exception if the human was a veggie grin

not at all! jokes are good!

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes see up (twice) ^^

and now I really MUST go.....