to not know what unconditional parenting is?!

(853 Posts)
GirlOutNumbered Mon 11-Feb-13 20:54:19

Just read it on a thread. I have no idea what this is?

MolotovCocktail Tue 12-Feb-13 10:50:03

I have no idea, either. Either YANBU or we're both BU!

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 10:52:09

is it a parenting style confused

MolotovCocktail Tue 12-Feb-13 10:56:23

Evidently, Mrsjay but what does it entail?

flow4 Tue 12-Feb-13 11:04:57

I'd say it's impossible, that's what! grin

flow4 Tue 12-Feb-13 11:06:00

You don't discipline the child is the main thing, I really can't see how not disciplining helps make an adult, but I want to be educated more in it.

never heard of it but from the name sounds like you don't discipline them at all and just let them behave how they like. Can't be that though!!!

Ther you go, it's an 'earth shattering paradigm'

So yes you claearly ABU

grin

I love how the author tries to guilt trip with the love= no rewards.

I bloody loved getting rewarded as a child. But now I know my parents didn't love me [sob]

SavoyCabbage Tue 12-Feb-13 11:13:27

It's where your child is going upside down on a metal handrail over a flight of concrete steps with my child.

Then they get stuck upside down over aforementioned concrete steps.

A random woman has to bolt across the playground and prise them off the precarious metal bar.

And you say 'that must have been very frightening' to your child whilst I am yelling 'don't you dare do that again! You could split your head open' at my child.

At least that's what happened to me this afternoon.

SelfRighteousPrissyPants Tue 12-Feb-13 11:15:43

You don't not discipline them you just try reasoning with them and treating them like humans rather than dogs to perform for a biscuit therefore the lack of rewards thing.

givemeaclue Tue 12-Feb-13 11:18:10

You allow them to be spoilt brats

choceyes Tue 12-Feb-13 11:23:16

I've tried reasoning with my 4yr old and 2yr old and it hardly ever works. And the offer of a biscuit or a bit of chocolate at the right time does wonders smile

I condider myself to be an AP type of parent in that I natural term BF, co-sleep, sling etc etc, but unconditional parenting, home schooling and elimination communication (although can see the logic in EC) are methods I could never use.

Startail Tue 12-Feb-13 11:27:05

If it had been DD1 climbing the rails, I'd be the one looking the other way and ignoring the child totally.

DD1 climbed everything, she always sorted herself out eventually.

OTheHugeManatee Tue 12-Feb-13 11:33:15

Sounds to me like a recipe for raising adults who have learned by example to be hostile to authority and afraid of their own aggression.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 11:38:02

elimination communication!? Whats that!? Have I been living under a rock or do I just not read up on what I am supposed to be doing.

I teach. Children need boundaries and routine (particularly boys). They really really do. They don't though need reward, I do agree with that.

However, I have given my son a toy car recently for how well he behaved at the hairdressers!!

<waits patiently to find out what EC is>

wreckedone Tue 12-Feb-13 11:47:38

EC is where you don't use nappies, but you watch for the child's cues that they need to go and hold them over a sink/bin/toilet for them to do their stuff...

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 11:48:48

Evidently, Mrsjay but what does it entail?

I think it is when children run free range grin .

Elimination communication is when you watch for clues to when your child is going to poop and put them over a potty or 'something'

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 12-Feb-13 11:48:53

EC = elimination communication ie trying to get your DC to wee/poo in toilet from birth.

I did EC lite and have had very few dirty nappies since about 6 months.

wreckedone Tue 12-Feb-13 11:49:09

I think kids do need rewards, but those rewards can often be being told that mummy/daddy/alternative caregiver are pleased with what they did. I am so far from UC it's unreal-sometimes I probably sound like I'm talking to a dog, but my lad is very happy and seems to like being told he's a clever lad,well done etc.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 12-Feb-13 11:49:31

And you can use nappies - just try and keep them clean and dry

wreckedone Tue 12-Feb-13 11:50:37

I didn't know that-I thought EC shunned nappies :-)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Tue 12-Feb-13 11:51:10

One of the things with UP is you want your child to be self motivated and proud of themselves when they achieve. Not trying to achieve to make your or someone else happy, or to receive a reward.

TheYamiOfYawn Tue 12-Feb-13 11:52:01

It's actually pretty sensible, although hard to do. Be genuinely interested in what your child does and says, base discipline on empathy and morality and help them to find their own solutions to problems.

I like a lot of the ideas, and the book has certainly shaped the way I do things, but I'm too impatient to do it all.

Also, I think that the book is in many ways a reaction to a culture of childrearing and doesn't make as much sense in the UK.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 11:52:43

I kind of do EC, purely by accident really and because both my boys make such a big show of pooing it would be silly to ignore it!

Pandemoniaa Tue 12-Feb-13 11:52:57

Rewards don't have to involve biscuits although admittedly, I'll always accept a biscuit!

You can praise positively without getting Pavlovian but I have to say that all the unconditionally parented children I knew were bordering on the wild. Admittedly it's down to parental interpretation but from watching them grow up, their lack of "conditioning" didn't always help them cope particularly well with social situations.

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 11:52:58

is you want your child to be self motivated and proud of themselves when they achieve

I did that with mine does that mean i parented uncoditionally (sp) grin

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 11:53:34

but they did like whos a good girl and a biscuit though I did rub their tummies like I do the dog though wink

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 11:54:21

I didn't*

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 11:55:03

It's actually pretty sensible, although hard to do. Be genuinely interested in what your child does and says, base discipline on empathy and morality and help them to find their own solutions to problems.

I did this too doesn't most parents parent like that confused

wreckedone Tue 12-Feb-13 11:55:14

My lad is proud of himself, because he knows I'm proud of him. I have friends who would describe themselves as UP, I would say they aren't - their children run wild, with no boundaries, no consequences and no respect and are complete brats.

Elimination communication is basically what you do when potty training - ie: spotting when your DC is about to wet themselves and throwing them onto a potty so yu can jump about and reward them with a smartie. But you do it from birth. And you don't reward it with a smartie.

FlouncingMintyy Tue 12-Feb-13 11:57:24

Its something you can do if you have lots of time and patience and only one child.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 11:58:18

So really UP is just a fancy name for what alot of people do anyway, but now it has a book and is making money...
A bit like (dare I Say it) BLW?

I 'unconditionally' parent.

I parent my DC when they are a PITA, when they don't appreciate me, and when I would much rather be doing other things - or doing nothing at all smile

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 12:01:14

I wouldn't trust any child to set their own boundries I know teenagers who were raised with none and tbh they are really unpleasant kids and I hate saying that but it is true they are bossy entitled and selfish that sounds like most teens but I know what im on about confused

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 12:01:23

I have a friend who once told me she practises UP and that she believed in never denying her child, but seeing as she only allowed him to snack on rice cakes whilst all around were scoffing icecream I'm not sure I believed her. He's turned out quite odd, but that could have happened anyway.

I think UP gets people's backs up because the insinuation is (or rather can be) that if you don't follow it, you're a bullying tyrant who doesn't love their child enough. A bit like BLW - if you don't do that you're shoving spoons of purée into your pour babe's mouth against their will.

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 12:02:04

POOR babe's mouth.

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 12:03:50

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IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 12:04:11

You don't not discipline but you do use information and education as discipline on a continuous basis.

You don't punish or reward they are both different to discipline

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 12:05:16

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wreckedone Tue 12-Feb-13 12:05:51

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mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 12:06:25

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Katnisscupcake Tue 12-Feb-13 12:07:30

I would be interested to see how/whether it is/can be continued through pre-school and school... Certainly at DD's pre-school they get gold star stickers or equivalent when they've done well at numbers/letters etc. Would those Children who have been UC parented wonder why they aren't getting one? Maybe think they haven't been good enough and therefore won't be proud of themselves? Alternatively, if they were given one, would that partially undo the UC parenting that they've been brought up with? hmm

Having said that, this post could be irrelevant as I don't know enough about it really...

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 12:08:59

No, no don't. That would be unfair. I only noticed it in active, but there's no point in ranting "ffs, you are a loon" at the op, she is doing her best.

I have yet to meet an unconditionalparenter who has continued into teenagerhood. Though I suppose if you had naturally and happily compliant children it might work well, maybe?

wreckedone Tue 12-Feb-13 12:09:35

All the UP'ers I know home educate so they can avoid school routines and reward/punishment systems.

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Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 12:12:37

Yes, wewere.

I honestly don't understand how you can UP properly if you have more than one child.

Because you can't let them all self-discipline, and work to all their timetables, and allow them all to made the decisions. There must be clashes and they must all have to compromise in some way confused.

I suspect you UP your eldest and the others fit around them.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 12:12:59

I think I know an UP'er. They home school and have twins that basically do as these please. She said 'they make their own boundaries', while I just watched in horror.

CHildren are not capable of making their own boundaries. Every year I see new teachers get eaten alive and the common mistake is not having boundaries closely followed by not enforcing any sanctions.

Zappo Tue 12-Feb-13 12:15:16

I tried to do it (certain aspects of it). I have a daughter who is kind and very well behaved at school and in public.

I'll be honest here...

And although I can work with her to resolve most things and I was lucky enough to be able to potty train without sticker charts or rewards, I do find it almost impossible to stop her from hurting/hassling her baby sister when she's tired and it's then I wished I had something in my armoury. I do get frustrated and end up shouting from time to time (not UP) but that doesn't work.

Consequences (as tried by my DH) don't really work with her anyway because sometimes she wants to hassle her sister more than she wants this toy or that toy and if I did use time out or some other tool, she would just get more resentful of her sister. It wouldn't stop her doing it.

Light at the end of tunnel though as they are starting to become friends. It's those after school blips that are the problem and only sleep or food cures that sort of mood- punishment or consequences don't have a chance in hell in my house.

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 12:17:41

What a load of bollcks. Chidren need to know boundaries and between what's acceptable and what's not. As adults we perform for reward, we go to wrk and get paid, chidren should be prepared for adult life and for work, we have to conform and abde by societal norms a rules, discipline reapers chidren for that. Who the hell do you reason with a tantrumming toddler hmm. Will try ec with my 12 month ds in a few weeks though, will put him on the potty at regular times

ivanapoo Tue 12-Feb-13 12:17:49

What I don't get is how you stop other people disciplining your child in the trad way eg praising them. Complete strangers will say things like "what a lovely dress" or "aren't you clever!" to kids - and then if the parents don't praise them might they not think the parents don't approve/care?

Zappo Tue 12-Feb-13 12:21:59

A lot of UP parents do praise but instead of saying "good jumping" or "Well done" every five minutes, they will be a loit more descriptive.

Surely the best thing to is a little bit of every method, depending on age, circumstance and situation.

It is important for children to learn that actions have consequences and sometimes ones they can not fully appreciate, so it is best as a parent to help them understand those consequences- my now 3yo when she was 18months could get out of her car seat. Not sure how UP would suggest I handled that but we felt it was dangerous enough to give a negative consequence for and praise/rewards when she didn't do it. We obviously tried things like distraction when we saw it happening but not always possible on a busy road if you are the only adult in the car.

I feel with most of these parenting techniques its like diet moderation in all things and do what is best for child and family.

Fairenuff Tue 12-Feb-13 12:23:45

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pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 12:26:52

As adults we cannot do as we please and make up our own rules, well to a certain extent but we have rules and norms and laws within society tat as an adult you have to follow. Chidren need boundaries and guidence and discipling if tey do wrong

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 12:29:27

I'm not sure that diagnosis of ASD/ADHD etc is due to UP though, Fairenuff.

That is an entirely different discussion.

A child won't be diagnosed with ODD because his parents don't insist on him getting up in the morning.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 12:34:02

So home schooling - when does that normally stop?
I am just wondering what happens to the UP'ed, home schooled child when they are 15-16? THe world must be a strange place?

MoominmammasHandbag Tue 12-Feb-13 12:34:56

Hmmm I know a few kids who are parented along these lines and they seem to rub everyone up the wrong way to be honest. Teachers are annoyed because they are frequently late for school and uncooperative, similarly any adult who has the misfortune to be supervising them in an out of school activity. But the sad thing for me is that a lot of kids raised like this seem to struggle with their friendships. Maybe they are just too used to used to getting their own way.

Reading this thread it has just dawned on me that I have raised my kids like dogs: lots of love and praise but also lots of discipline. My kids are all happy and successful and great socially (much better than me) so it has worked for us.

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 12-Feb-13 12:36:27

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mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 12:37:39

I agree with you moomin I have heard a story of a child at primary who thought it was ok to shout out in class but in conversations, tell a teacher they were wrong, and when the parent was told about her childs behaviour the teacher was told well she is an equal and entitled to be heard shock the parent was swiftly told that her child was a child and had to wait her turn in class.

OscarPistoriusBitontheside Tue 12-Feb-13 12:37:54

My aunt basically did this with her two, now are both adults and less pleasant people you couldn't meet. Neither think that there is a world beyond them and both get very upset when you suggest that they may be slightly out of touch. I have little to do with them.

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 12:38:50

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mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 12:39:29

No, no don't. That would be unfair. I only noticed it in active, but there's no point in ranting "ffs, you are a loon" at the op, she is doing her best.

i just went for a read didnt post honest i was a good girl wink

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 12:44:26

Totally agree moonin, it seems chikdren raised like this are totally egocentric and grow up to be the same as adults. Seems like lazy parenting if you ask me

I stay away from UC threads because they make me v judgmental. And likely to get banned from MN if I said what I really think.

Sometimes, as a parent I don't have the time or resources to discuss the issue. Or let the consequences play out. Or find out how my child
Is feeling about a certain situation. Sometimes They just have to do what I say because I am a grown up and as a general rule I know better than them.

And as Flump pointed out, all of my parenting is unconditional. Otherwise I'd have left them out for the wolves ages ago grin

Its a fab taking bits of parenting that most people have always done and adding in extremes that cannot and do not work. The parents that fall for this shit, tend to have little faith in their own ability to parent and need to have the fall back of some numpties words to make them feel like they are successful in their raising of children.

I read it and weep and laugh at the same time and await ten years time when another fad sweeps the guliables and takes their money.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 12:50:43

It's where you take your 5 year old, on the plane, and your child refuses to buckle their seat belt, and you won't insist they do it, or forcibly do it for them (because that's disciplining them, or constraining their freedom, or some such fuckwittery), which then necessitates a very lenghty debate with the cabin crew...

I know because I read exactly that post on MN, from someone who did Unconditional Parenting shock

And, presumably, all the while, the rest of the cabin were boring Hate Stares into the back of the parent's head, and the cabin staff were inconvenienced, and possibly take off was delayed... hmm

But, apparently, that didn't seem to occur to the UP parent hmm Because, they appear to exist in a little bubble, a top their ivory tower.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 12:54:13

[sits on hands...]

Keep me away from the UP thread...please keep me away...noooooo, I can feel myself slipping...help me, help meeeeeeeeeee....

Fairenuff Tue 12-Feb-13 12:54:40

Yes Maryz you are right, of course. Those are separate issues. But there is an increase in behavioural difficulties in young children that must come from somewhere. Or maybe it's just the next generation raising these children and I'm officially an old gimmer.

Oooh, the youth of today grin

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 12:57:19

<rugby tackles laqueen >

LadyBeagleEyes Tue 12-Feb-13 12:58:07

I had this when my ds was about 3 and refused to put his seat belt on.
It took one sharp word from the steward and he immediately complied, just before tantrum stage thank God.
He never did it again, funnily enough.

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 12:58:11

not including ASD and other things I agree with you fairenuff

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 12:59:39

I think there were always behavioural difficulties, but they were dealt with either by beating the child into submission, or forcing him/her to leave school.

I do think entitled children are becoming a problem. As is parents backing their children and not making them take responsibility for their behaviour.

ds2 was apoplectic with rage because a number of them were given lunchtime detention for persistently being late (which imo is fair enough - 14 year olds should get to school on time). One boy didn't go, backed up by his parents. They said it wasn't his fault he was late, they were driving him and got stuck in traffic.

Yeah, because they left the house too late, as they do every day hmm. But he got away with it angry

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 13:01:49

Sorry, when I said behavioural difficulties I meant diagnosable conditions were always there, but undiagnosed iyswim.

I do agree that there is an increase in general bad behaviour among children.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 13:02:28

We have parents phone in to get their children out of detentions all the time. These kids believe that the world revolves around them and their parents reinforce that completely.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 13:03:52

Have a patient, who clearly practices UP with their 4/5 year old child.

Has cancelled 3 appointments for herself, so fa,r because 'My child doesn't really want to come and sit in the waiting room, and it's not fair to make them.'

And, when the child has arrived with its Mum, they have run wild. Refused to have the surgery door closed, threw books, thumped on the reception desk. Demanding to go into secured rooms, simply because the door was locked - and the mother asking if I could 'Just let them see what's inside, and explore a little bit.'

Er - yeah, like I'm going to leave reception, to go and fetch keys, and let your child explore a room which has bags of clinical waste in it hmm And, the mother couldn't seem to understand why I wouldn't go along with her request hmm

Feckin self obsessed, self entitled, oblivious to the world around them, and raising a child that makes other adults grind their teeth with irritation.

Well done hmm

Pandemoniaa Tue 12-Feb-13 13:05:14

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LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 13:05:27

[nods thankfully at mrs ...but, then does a quick duck and dive and makes a desperate break for the UP thread...]

So what happens when a UP child goes to school and get disciplined? Do they have major meltdowns as someone has said `no` or not allowed them to do something?

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 13:08:52

To be fair, LaQ, that isn't really UP, that is fuckwittery.

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 13:08:58

I've told ds to tell Miss we got stuck in traffic, to make me look less crap (it doesn't work, and it's a crap excuse unless something remarkable happens such as the one road being closed for half an hour). We've only been 5 minutes late so far.

I certainly wouldn't expect him to be let off detention though.

I can't believe UP is so widespread that it's having a huge impact tbh and I live in exactly the kind of area where parents love that kind of toss.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 13:09:05

Is tosh that what it is i think there are many parenys already letting there children do what the hell they like and has been ever thus for decades its called

Not setting boundries and being a bad parent

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 13:09:08

<trips up laqueen>

I have just read a bit of that guys website and oh well nowt as queer as folk i suppose confused

DreamingOfTheMaldives Tue 12-Feb-13 13:11:33

Am I the only one who cannot find THAT thread?! Come on someone, give me a little clue............ you know you want to.

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 13:11:37

TBh I think following any sort of parenting style to the letter is weird and culty

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 13:12:02

Jenai, this child is late every day, pretty much.

And <bitter rant alert> his mother (when she is collecting) doesn't park in a space in the carpark like everyone else. Oh, no, she is too important for that. She double parks across the cars closest to the door and waits for him. And refuses to move when other cars are trying to get out because "ds will be out in a minute" hmm.

She parked across the head's car once. Oh how we all smirked.

pictish Tue 12-Feb-13 13:12:19

NOOOOO!!! LeQueen - I have been, I have seen. Stay away. I'm warning you!
I had a look and left the thread, quietly closing the door behind me.
It's not werf it lahv!

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 13:13:02

Yes there are a few kids at my sons school who get to decide when they want to attend school what lessons they will part take in

And weather they will simply just walk out of school

Hhha hahaha i never heard such twaddle alot of americans like this up shite says it all really

Hullygully Tue 12-Feb-13 13:14:28

I haven't read the book, but I agree with the blurb.

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 13:16:32

the teenagers I was talking about earlier are member of my family and it is really difficult to engage with them sometimes because they are so rude and up their own behinds with their own self importance. their mum is lovely just a bit feeble. she doesn't practise UP just lets them do as they please because 'their opinions matter and they are equal' hmm

tempnameswap Tue 12-Feb-13 13:16:48

It is an extension of a long-standing psychological concept http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconditional_positive_regard so not just new-fangled parenting nonsense!

I think it is a good thing, fwiw, but hard to re-condition ourselves in the heat of the moment!

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 13:19:06

I think these children will get a shock when they start high school or try and join the working world just not going into work because you dont feel like it not really goning to cut it

But like mosy have said its the new age tyoes who home school and give rice cakes as treats who do this sort of thing so can avoid boundries that is until its time for little prince or princess to get a job

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 13:22:06

It does just stink of not wanting to get into any type of confrontation doesnt it?

If I dont give boundaries, then I don't really have to discipline.

LetMeAtTheWine Tue 12-Feb-13 13:25:59

Am I the only one who cannot find THAT thread?! Come on someone, give me a little clue............ you know you want to.

Nope - I can't find it either confused

BeCool Tue 12-Feb-13 13:26:21

EC = elimination communication
i.e. what we did with babies before nappies were invented.
What many many cultures still do.

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 13:28:32

i.e. what we did with babies before nappies were invented.
What many many cultures still do.

I guess they just pooped on the floor

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 13:29:09

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Hullygully Tue 12-Feb-13 13:32:13

I have only known one awful child like the ones described here. He could never be left alone with another child out of sight because that one would reappear crying and bleeding. His parents would say, "Oh dear X, oh dear etc" If he displayed aggression publicly they'd say, "Oh darling hit me, hit me, hit my big fat bottom."

He was a monster. They were always moving his school becasue the school was a t fault.

But they didn't "unconditionally" parent, they "hopeless" parented.

I think people confuse the two.

TandB Tue 12-Feb-13 13:33:30

I think it's one of those things where there are some really good, basic concepts in it - if you use to to think about how you do things, and what the consequences might be.

BUT, as a whole technique, I think it's completely impractical and very artificial. I know some people who do bits and pieces of it and it seems to work very well - each of them has taken something away from it and incorporated it into their own, individual parenting style. I also know some hardcore UPers - they do it religiously, they discuss the theory of it endlessly and whether they are getting it right and how they can be more UP, they angst constantly about other people not buying into it, and it seems to create all sorts of problems.

That wellie thread is a prime example of why I don't think you can do "exclusive" UPing, particularly with more than one child - there is a punishment, and it also effects the children who haven't done anything wrong.

I also think people decide to "do" UP without really getting their heads around it, and finish up with badly-behaved children because they don't really know what it is they are trying to achieve.

So, I think there are good bits of theory, and it's never a bad idea to think more about our own motivations and the effect on the children, but as a technique I think it has massive, logisitical flaws and it's a shame that people take it as a set of rules to follow.

SelfRighteousPrissyPants Tue 12-Feb-13 13:35:14

You can disagree with the practice of UP but I think it's aims of making children feel unconditionally loved and to become empathetic, moralistic people who do what's right because they have thought it through rather than because they are scared of the consequences of not doing it are hard to disagree with.

I think some people here are confusing UP with idiotic parenting.

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 13:39:23

I agree Hully (although I've met a fair few dreadfully behaved children).

I think it's lame parenting rather than unconditional. I also suspect that it's not just outsiders who confuse the two, but hopeless parents themselves.

This is interesting. I struggle with some of it I admit, but a lot makes sense. There's a key bit at the end; It’s not a matter of memorizing a new script, but of keeping in mind our long-term goals for our children and watching for the effects of what we say - I reckon most of us don't watch the effects of what we say carefully enough.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 13:39:50

Oh my...I can see that children who have been Up'd will do so well in the work place...because in the work place, we never have to act under instruction...or do what we're told...or adhere to rules/regulations...keep to deadlines...do stuff we don't really want to do...

My DH has run his own compnay for nearly 20 years, and he doesn't give a shit about profits...or targets...of efficiency...or productivity...

What he really cares about is ensuring that his staff gently seek their own personal paths towards a greater sense of esteem, and satisfaction, without impacting negatively on their personal, cherished belief system and inherent sense of value and worth.

[tries to keep a straight face...]

Hullygully Tue 12-Feb-13 13:41:26

It's also about fostering intrinsic rather than extrinsic motivation, which is very valuable.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 13:44:26

If making your child feel unconditionally loved means you allow them to run riot, seriously piss off many other adults and children in their lives, and not adhere to behaviour that is socially acceptable and socially attractive - then that's shit parenting.

Maybe you will feel unconditonal love for you UP'd child. But, I can promise you that no one else will.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 13:45:40

I'm sorry hully but I simply cannot utter the phrase 'Fosters intrinsic motivation' whilst keeping a straight face smile

Hullygully Tue 12-Feb-13 13:46:01

Does praise motivate kids? Sure. It motivates kids to get praise. Alas, that’s often at the expense of commitment to whatever they were doing that prompted the praise.

I agreew ith this too^

Hullygully Tue 12-Feb-13 13:46:29

It doesn't mean that LaQ

Shit parenting is shit parenting.

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 12-Feb-13 13:46:58

Hello everyone,

It's absolutely fine to fine to have "spin-off" threads, and discuss unconditional parenting in general terms. However, we don't really think it's cricket to pick over other threads, and bad mouth posters who aren't here to defend themselves. So we're going to go through this thread and delete posts that are doing that.

We deleted a thread about UP last night that we felt was started purely to goad and inflame.

Hullygully Tue 12-Feb-13 13:48:30

I have a friend in LA, and being with her and her friends and their kids was interesting. Every time one of them moved you'd hear "good job!" "good job"

I felt so British and reticent.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 13:49:33

Yes Hully it's shit parenting, which, I suppose, at least, allows your UP'd child to retain a gentle sense of self worth and their intrinsic motivation, when faced with the fact they rarely get invited on play-dates, or to other children's parties.

Yet another parenting technique that only works with naturally obedient, healthy children.

If, like me, you have a very very stubborn sick child then you're fucked. I can't cancel hospital appointments because dd dosen't feel like it. I can't let her decide whether she takes her medication or not.

I also cannot make her eat enough food to keep herself alive. Because of this she is often NG fed. Sometimes I have to physically hold onto her while she is fed through a tube. Not pleasant, but the alternative is, well, starvation. What would an UP do??

Pandemoniaa Tue 12-Feb-13 13:50:13

As a very new parent I was obsessed with books about parenting. Having had no experience with babies or small children I took the same approach I'd always done about needing to know things - do the research!

Not surprisingly, it came as a bit of shock to discover ds1 hadn't read the same books as me but when I'd got a bit more confidence and by the time ds2 arrived, I'd realised that there was no one single, absolutely ideal way of going about parenting.

Which is why I think it is always incredibly short-sighted to jump on, say "unconditional parenting" or "parenting by inflexible routine" and follow those ideas to the letter. There's almost always some useful advice you can take from most theories but you've got to find what suits you and your child. Not take any parenting guides as some sort of gospel that must be followed to literal extremes.

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 13:50:16

Thing is, I know that a lot of the homework ds produces is half-arsed. When it isn't half-arsed I like to say as much. How do you let children know they#'re on the right track if you don't say "good job" when they've done a good job?

Hullygully Tue 12-Feb-13 13:50:55

unconditional parenting is different to shit parenting.

Who's actually read the book..??

Hullygully Tue 12-Feb-13 13:52:35

Alfie says you say, "You did it." (according to your link)

Also, I think it's fine if it's a genuinely "good job" iyswim

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 13:52:51

Of course it can be different Hully...it can be...

I worked as a tutor for nearly 20 kids, all HE, with a big healthy dose of UP thrown in...not the most pleasant experience of my life, I must say.

I think the name is misleading, because I parent my children unconditionally, yet I do the opposite of the method the name describes.

We expect immediate and unquestioning obedience from our children in the actual moment. This is partly for reasons of safety (e.g. stay on the pavement) and partly because we can see the bigger picture of how we need to function as a family with four children close in age.

When there is next a quiet moment (surprisingly often!) we will then explain why we issued the instruction.

Now that they are all eight or over, if it's safe and isn't going to harm or inconvenience other people, we try to let them experience the consequences of their actions when we feel it's appropriate.

We are not perfect parents by any means, but we get positive comments about our children all the time, from everyone who teaches them or comes into contact with them. They all know that they are responsible for their own actions and that behaving in a courteous and respectful manner towards others can improve everyone's day.

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 13:53:56

I am utterly a praise junky. Nothing works better with me than a pat on the head, although I'm also motivated by doing a better job than people I don't like grin

If people universally dread spending time with your children as a result of the way you've been raining them, you're doing a crap job UP or not. Although I do have a huge issue with the unconditional bit - it rather suggests that people who don't UP don't love their children enough (sorry if I'm repeating myself).

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 13:55:31

Raining? raising.

I've not read the book but I've read a fair few articles over the years. I suspect that's more than some self-proclaimed UPers tbh.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 13:58:28

Any parenting technique, that actively encourages your child to act/behave in ways that cause annoyance/irritation in 95% of the rest of the population, is shit.

Because, the poor child has no choice. They are going to be released into a world, in which they really don't have the necessary skills to survive, successfully.

They are going to spend their formative years, and adult hood irritating, and annoying those around them, and oblivious to the 1001 tiny social indicators which the rest of us learned because we grew up in the real world.

BrainSurgeon Tue 12-Feb-13 13:59:07

I have stopped reading books since SWMNBN.... I decided to "trust my instincs" wink
My instincts tell me that there are some interesting things in the UP theory based on what I read here and that parents should be encouraged to choose whatever they see fit for their style and the personality of their child. Just like with all the other parenting books.
HTH grin

Primrose123 Tue 12-Feb-13 14:03:36

I know a woman who did this. It was a while ago, and the kids are teenagers now.

The mum was lovely, a really nice person. She was friendly, kind, generous and good company. I'm not sure if it was called UP then, but she certainly didn't set any boundaries. Didn't even nicely remind her child to say hello, please or thank you. Didn't tell the child off if she snatched something, hurt someone, called someone names, was rude to her etc. The child was an absolute horror. The teachers had huge problems getting her to do what she was told, none of the children liked her or wanted to play with her. Other parents would invite her over to play and she would be extremely rude, and behave badly. I know this as I was one of these parents! Now perhaps the child would have been difficult anyway, but all the other parents were amazed when this child was never told off.

They moved her to a different school, because the mum thought she was being bullied. I don't think she was, I think she just alienated all the other kids.

Since then, the parents have split up, and I don't know what happened, but the child now lives with the father, and will not speak to her mother or have any contact. I have bumped into the mother a few times, and she is heartbroken. As I say, she was a lovely mum, just needed to be more assertive in my opinion.

MoominmammasHandbag Tue 12-Feb-13 14:03:59

But setting rules and boundaries does not interfere with a child feeling unconditionally loved. I once had FiL babysit my children. They were apparently -- little buggers-- a bit of a handful. When he finally got them in bed he told DS1, "I am going to tell your Mum about this behaviour and she will be very cross and not like you".hmm
Apparently DS1 said "Yes she will, she always loves me, even when I'm naughty".
DS was only 5 at the time, and I am probably more of a shouty mum than I should be, but he still understood that being told off doesn't mean that you are not loved.

TheYamiOfYawn Tue 12-Feb-13 14:07:04

Jenai, you would say something like "I can see that you've put a lot of effort into your homework today and it really shows. I can picture the castle so clearly from your description. You've even mentioned the smells. What bit do you like best?"

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 14:08:17

Well, exactly Moomin.

DD1 has a friend, whose parents don't UP, but they are very, very lenient with her, to the point of carelessness IMO.

Yet, DD1 will say to me 'I know you're only strict with with me, Mummy, because you care about what happens to me.'

Which is 100% true - and because I love her to bits, and I very, very much want other people to love her, and really like her, too.

I want other people to genuinely welcome her, and enjoy her company, and think what a nice, little girl she is.

I want her to enjoy the lovely warm feeling, or knowing you are well liked, and sought after, and that people like you and want to spend time with you.

lougle Tue 12-Feb-13 14:08:55

"But there is an increase in behavioural difficulties in young children that must come from somewhere."

There is an increase in the recognition of the causes of behavioural difficulties which have previously been written off as 'disruptive' 'day dreaming' 'defiant' etc.

Bad parenting does not cause ASD, ADHD, or ODD. There are countless very good parents on this forum who have children with these conditions. I expect there are a significant number of less good parents who have children with these conditions and some terrible parents whose children have these conditions, because parenting is not what causes these conditions (although poor parenting will prevent the children from meeting their potential despite these conditions, of course).

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 14:10:37

He'd look at me like I'd lost the plot (he's 12) Yami! But yes I can see where you're coming from. I like to think I try to do something along the same lines.

Have I ever told you that I love your name btw - I'm sure I have. I loved that book when I was small.

TheYamiOfYawn Tue 12-Feb-13 14:17:10

And it doesn't encourage kids to act like little shits. It encourages them to behave well even when an adult isn't watching. I have two children who are both naturally pretty well-behaved, but if one of them wad being rude, unpleasant or violent, I would remove them from what they were doing, explain that what they were doing was making the other children scared/upset/hurt, encourage them to empathise with the other children, explain that everyone here should feel safe and ask how they could make the other child feel better. Then I would expect my child to do something to make the child feel better. If my child then kicked off and had a huge tantrum I would apologise on the child's behalf, we would go home to calm down, and talk it over later.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 14:18:39

Very sad i know my son has a boy like this in his class who is a force of his own he has very few friends most of the parents dont want there children making friends with him

And he has actaully become dangrous so much so he is banned from most pratical lessons because he only follows instructions if HE wants confused

I often wonder when i see kids of 12/13 out at 12 at night if there parents are following this UP thing

twitchycurtains Tue 12-Feb-13 14:19:13

A family member proudly told me how she had got all of her kids "toilet trained" by the time they were six months old, turned out she was talking about Elimination Communication. She also tried it with another family members child (grandchild) and told anyone who would listen how the baby was toilet trained. Anyhoo ... just realised thread isn't about EC

OTheHugeManatee Tue 12-Feb-13 14:19:59

My mum was pretty UP with us. I don't thank her for it: her alternative to punishment was manipulation and guilt-tripping and it's taken me years of therapy to get her voice out of my head and develop a sensible relationship to authority.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 14:20:17

All of the good points though are just natural parenting. SO many people assume that the norm is shouting and making children do things. It isn't.

Some of it is bonkers though, children do need boundaries and they like to push against them. What happens if they have none? What do they push against?

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 14:21:13

I agree that UP is very different from Shit Parenting, Hully.

I think the problem is that people think that if they are going to UP they have to follow all the rules, with no deviation whatsoever, and that just isn't possible because shit happens and we have to adapt.

I agree with the idea of teaching children independence, and decision making, and I also agree with the ideas of expecting good behaviour to not be dependent on praise or rewards or bribes.

But (and this is a massive but) when letting the child make all the decisions impacts negatively on the rest of the family and the rest of the world, it is essential that the parent can step in, evolve, react, and deal with it.

And the parent then shouldn't be made to feel shit that they somehow failed to do it (i.e parenting) right.

There is no right way to parent.

In fact as a verb, parenting is a very odd concept, but that's a whole other thread hmm.

TheYamiOfYawn Tue 12-Feb-13 14:22:09

Ok, with a 12 year old it would like "impressive vocab" or "You're getting a good sound out of that trumpet - the practising really shows".

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 14:22:45

I can just see it now come on little dom jolly put the bread knife down your making every one feel sad lets talk things over i will give you some time to choose if you want ti put the bread knife away hahahaha

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 14:25:18

Maryz everyone works for rewards why should children be diffrent

People work hard at work because they love there job but also because it may mean promaotion and or a raise

People are nice to others because reward when you smile at somone they smile back that is REWARD evan people who do vountry work get some kind or reward

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 14:26:21

I know that, Dom.

But they shouldn't learn to only work for rewards.

<glares at slouching teenagers who want to be paid to clear up their own mess [bitter]>

<ignores said teenagers, and goes out>

IfNotNowThenWhen Tue 12-Feb-13 14:27:11

I don't think children are all that different to dogs. They need security, boundries affection, lots of running outside, and they need to have their tummies rubbed and told they are good lads/girls.
Most of all they need to know that you love them unconditionally, sure, but you can make sure they know that without letting them call the shots all the time.
In fact, I believe that giving children too much power and choice actually makes them feel insecure in the long run.
They end up thinking everything is about them, so everything that goes wrong is their fault.

MoominmammasHandbag Tue 12-Feb-13 14:27:29

But to be honest, lots of little kids don't have much natural empathy, they are inherently selfish. Similarly teenagers lose their natural empathy for a good few years. Appeal to their better natures and its Lord of the Flies I reckon.
I genuinely believe you need to train your kids to behave well, not wait for them to be mature enough to come to their own conclusion that it's a good idea.

I have several issues with this UP theory - I am not going to buy the book so maybe someone here can enlighten me.

1) How does the personality of the child effect your approach? ds 1 is very sensitive uptight and likes routine, order and boundaries he freaks out when those are absent but as he is only 8 still needs me to help him order his life. Dd2 could not be more different, she is disorganised, laid back and dreamy but also needs me to impose some structure otherwise she would be spinning around in a tutu singing to herself all day, then there is dd2 fierce, demanding and stubborn all together they can easily create chaos!

How an earth could these disparate individuals be successfully UP'd and all get their needs met and me get them to school without losing my mind entirely?

2) Safety - how would UP approach crossing the road? I explain the reasons for learning to cross safely and repeat daily the mantra 'is it safe to cross' 'are you looking both ways etc.' but still my dreamy dd1 runs across the road shrieking 'geronimo' shock So I shout at her and give her a lecture on rta statistics and threaten loss of pc privileges to try and get through to her.

I have a tool kit of parenting methods I will utilise according to the child and the situation I am faced with. one method will not cover all needs imo. There is obviuosly sense in talking to and understanding your children but if they do not have any boundaries from their parents how do they feel safe and learn how to set their own boundaries?

ScottyDoc Tue 12-Feb-13 14:44:36

I think Laqueen talks a hell of a lot of sense. I have also noticed the UP kids being HE sometimes too and wonder how they will cope in the real world.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 14:46:46

Mommmin

You are correct every study of this tyoe of thing shows that chikdren feel safter when they know what to expect

I worked with chikdren in care these chikdren seldom comes from backgrounds with any boundaries what so ever and are left to be wild

You would not belive how they benefit when in foster care from rules boundries how safe and secure it makes them feel

Even little things like the children being made to sit at atale while they eat and not just walk around its just so sad you can spot children who had little boundires a mile in a school setting because schools like every were else are rule based

They find it diffcult to take turns to share, to sit at lunch time is hard

I love y so unconditaly but i wont be told by somone who is 13 what to do also they wont dictate to me what they will and wont do by allowing a child to do so you are being crule the world cannot work on "WHEN I AM READY"

The whole fabric of socity would collapse if people only did what they wanted when they wanted.

MyDarlingClementine Tue 12-Feb-13 14:48:27

I think I know of one little girl who may be parented according to this method....I have never once seen her DM get firm with her and tell her off properly, for instance, she has deliberlty hurt another child including my own and this Dm has done nothing! Said in a really soft way " oh dear, what happened, oh an accident - ok then".

For behvaiour where I would be saying " that is NOT acceptable, apologise now and if you do that again we WILl be home and that will be it!" and we WILL be going if he did it again.

This parent just seems so wishy washy and yet I have seen the nursery teachers rolling eyes in class when the child has caused disruption there, over heard a teacher saying " We told her NO today when she hurt another child..." I have seen the child go out of her way in a public place to hurt another child and the DM always looks blank and frankly pathetic. Has never made her DC apologise..or done anything,

I have even heard other children coming from class saying " i had a good day today - X didnt hurt me today!"

I cant see any boundaries, the child is a pain, but more than that, HURTS other children ALL the time.

I really struggle with it - really struggle, sometimes I have been screaming inside - " say something for gods sake".

ScottyDoc Tue 12-Feb-13 14:51:21

Unconditional parenting and the gullible twits who advocate it could do with a slap from a wet fish. Shame my other thread was deleted because it seems the majority of society really don't want to have to put up with the types of children most have experienced from UP.

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 15:01:31

I suppose some parents genuinely believe they are doing their best for their child with using UP.

But, I suspect a lot of parents are just bleddy ineffectual, and don't have the wherewithal to impose boundaries/discipline on their child...but, of course they're not going to admit that...and so, instead, with relief they purport that they don't believe in that sort of parenting, and prefer to allow their child to explore and set their own boundaries, and develop a sense of moral rightness that isn't linked to societal norms hmm

Which makes them sound like they're doing something worthwhile, and positive, and (dare I say it) ever-so-slightly-ethically-better, than the conventional methods of instilling boundaries and encouraging socially acceptable behaviour in children...

But, it's just making a smug sounding virtue, out of what is actually a rather sad, necessity...the parent is too ineffectual/listless/lazy/inconsistent to provide a firm, but loving framework against which the child can grow.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 15:12:06

Well said laqueesn

I saw a women at soft play use this her child was hitting another child and i heard her say let me know when your ready to stop confused then the child of course didnt stop she then asked the child it made her feel disapointed he then walloped her and ran off into the ball bit

I dont think i ever seen sadder parenting in my life my sister was laughing i thought it was just as sad

I my view and inaeffective parent who wont provide boundries is just as dangrous as a overbearing conrtolling parent

MyDarlingClementine Tue 12-Feb-13 15:16:20

"I my view and inaeffective parent who wont provide boundries is just as dangrous as a overbearing conrtolling parent "

I think your right there, this little girl I am thinking of scares me sometimes. Its horrid to say it but I just wonder what on earth the future holds for her.

The hurting has been pretty consistent since about 3 and she is 5 and half now.

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 15:22:09

But we don't know if the crap parents are attempting to UP or if they are indeed just rubbish.

Fairenuff Tue 12-Feb-13 15:27:55

if one of them was being rude, unpleasant or violent, I would remove them from what they were doing, explain that what they were doing was making the other children scared/upset/hurt, encourage them to empathise with the other children, explain that everyone here should feel safe and ask how they could make the other child feel better. Then I would expect my child to do something to make the child feel better. If my child then kicked off and had a huge tantrum I would apologise on the child's behalf, we would go home to calm down, and talk it over later

But Yami how is that UP as opposed to just regular parenting. You say you would remove them from what they are doing. Isn't that against UP. Shouldn't they be the ones to decide if they should remove themselves from upsetting another child?

And what happens if you decide to go home because the 'naughty' child won't see the error of their ways but the other, well behaved child doesn't want to go?

PessaryPam Tue 12-Feb-13 15:36:51

Doormat parenting maybe?

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 15:39:00

Oh my goodness gracious me shock.

I have had three (yes three at least, I'm not sure, it might be more but I'm scared to look) posts deleted.

All of which were telling people not to go and post on any other UP thread.

Next time I'll just be openly dismissive, and goady and just plain nasty. I mean, if they are going to delete stuff, I may as well make it worthwhile.

<mutters>

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 15:41:00

For fuck's sake four.

Four posts deleted <explodes with wrath>

And all of them were nice.

<mutters more>

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 15:43:57

I had my first ever post deleted. It's an exciting day!

Maryz Tue 12-Feb-13 15:54:10

Wait a bit, Girl, and they will delete your entire thread; then you'll have just about made it on mumsnet - you need a long thread, a deleted post, a deleted thread and a thread in Classics.

I've been here ten years and still haven't got to Classics, but I've done the rest a few times!

BrainSurgeon Tue 12-Feb-13 16:02:50

<backs away slowly from Maryz' posts>

AlwaysWashing Tue 12-Feb-13 16:04:59

Reasoning! With a 2 year old! Righto!
Teaching by example, keeping your cool & behaving like the adult when you want to scream & pull out your hair and yes, the odd reward - that's how I'm trying to parent.

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 16:06:25

Yami that would not work with dd 5 ASD and developmental delays, too much language too many complicated concepts to understand. It needs to be short and to te point. Chidren are born with ASD not come about from rubbish parenting. If yur child is od enough yams they shoud be apologising not you! You are no going to be teir always when they are a teen/adult to apologise for them!

FunnysInLaJardin Tue 12-Feb-13 16:07:22

this will be deleted just like yesterdays one

<mystical>

BlueberryHill Tue 12-Feb-13 16:11:44

Fairenuff good question, that is the approach I would take, probably with a firm No at the beginning to stop anymore unpleasant behaviour, followed by the rest. I don't do unconditional parenting, more a 'in the long run I would like a nice child who turns into a nice adult parenting'.

Maybe as a lot of posters have suggested, there are really good elements in UP, but using it the whole time isn't practical. Any UP practioners use it all the time and with three children?

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 16:19:20

^In fact, I believe that giving children too much power and choice actually makes them feel insecure in the long run.
They end up thinking everything is about them, so everything that goes wrong is their fault.^

this is what I think too whatever you call it letting children decide for themselves and letting them set their own boundries is a recipe for disaster ime

just because some man has written a book doesn't mean it will work out long term does it, children do not come with manuals a poster on here said her mother did the UP thing and she has resentment that has taken years to over come,

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 16:26:36

I havent read a book on being a mum, it seems pointless. It should be quite natural shouldn't it?!

I hope thread is not deleted, I really didn't start it to poke fun at the wellies mum, I had just not heard of the term. I hadn't heard of alot of things until I joined mumsnet!

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 16:27:37

Your giving the chidren more responsibility than they are capable of handling, and may be overwhelming and confusing fo them

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 16:29:00

Your giving the chidren more responsibility than they are capable of handling, and may be overwhelming and confusing fo them

indeed

Takver Tue 12-Feb-13 16:32:43

Jenai "How do you let children know they#'re on the right track if you don't say "good job" when they've done a good job?"

This isn't UP (not my thing), but a more general 'How To Talk' / generic people skills kind of issue, I would say.

I won't say I always do it myself, but the advice generally seems to be that you don't give generic 'good job' kind of praise, you try to be much more specific about what you think is good, and explain its benefits to you (if relevant). So eg I might say to dd - 'that work is very neat, I'm sure Mr X will find it very easy to read, and I can see that you have spelled everything right' or similarly to a co-worker 'many thanks for bringing me this report early, it will make life much easier for me because I'll be able to get my part done without a rush'.

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 16:35:20

that it far too many words takver most people would switch off if i said all that my dds would their eyes would glaze over grin

HumphreyCobbler Tue 12-Feb-13 16:35:50

I don't practice UP but there is an awful lot of misrepresentation of UP on this thread.

I have read the book. It does not mean never saying no - that is crap parenting. It does not mean no boundaries - that also is crap parenting.

I think a lot of UP going wrong is where parents give the child what they want rather than what they need. This is just my unsubstantiated opinion.

What is UP then Humphrey I genuinely don't know

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 16:44:07

Wewereherefirst - its a book that's making some one ALOT of money!

Takver Tue 12-Feb-13 16:47:01

mrsjay - my dd would definitely listen, but to be fair that would be in circs where she had shown me her homework & asked what I think.

Humphrey, I think what you say sounds right

PMSL So it's the anti-Gina Ford? grin

<hunts for pen to write parenting book>

Takver Tue 12-Feb-13 16:48:04

Girloutnumbered - not sure about that. I'd say on a How To Talk thread the majority of posters will have read the book, on a UP thread only a tiny minority.

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 16:50:20

I do try something along those lines Tak. It doesn't work brilliantly, but it's the best I've got.

HumphreyCobbler Tue 12-Feb-13 16:53:37

no punishment other than the natural law of consequences
no time out
lots of discusssion about feelings, motivations
respecting children's point of view
giving children a voice
no meaningless praise
dealing with a child's needs respectfully

this all sounds quite woolly and wishy washy - and the book does not give any practical examples. I found it an annoying book from that perspective. I did not have the patience to put it all into practise, but I do not do time out or overly gushing and meaningless praise.

you are definitely allowed to say no to a child, but you would be expected to give a reason.

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 16:54:34

well i have 1 adult 1 nearly adult child I did a bit of this that and the other and they have turned out al right ( i think)

HumphreyCobbler Tue 12-Feb-13 16:54:43

How to Talk is my bible. I really love that book.

Takver Tue 12-Feb-13 17:03:52

I like How to Talk, too. As dd gets older I also find this book really helpful.

I have to say that I find AK a bit patchy. I read a lot of A S Neill's (the Summerhill founder) writings when dd was small, they are similar in inspiration, I think, but I found them more helpful in specifics. He is very, very clear that no boundaries / out of control child is NOT good parenting even though many people used his work to justify this approach (!)

Jojobump1986 Tue 12-Feb-13 17:06:10

I'd never heard of this technique before yesterday. I can sort of see the logic behind it but I definitely think it would work better with older children/teenagers who have already learnt how to make good choices. I plan to let my children make their own decisions in an age appropriate manner - e.g. my 15mo can choose whether he wants broccoli or carrot from his plate next but not whether he wants his nappy changed when it needs doing! I'd probably let a 12 year old choose to stay home rather than accompany me on a 10 minute dash to the shop but wouldn't let them opt out of a day trip to see relatives. Personally I think there's a time & place where it's appropriate to let children set their own boundaries & they need to learn to do that but it should happen in a wider context of learning how society functions & being guided into making the best decisions. I will sometimes let my children make poor decisions so that they can learn about consequences but that wouldn't be allowed in such a way that it would negatively impact on/majorly inconvenience others & would be followed up with a discussion about what the best choice would have been & how they can make better choices in the future.

If I write a book called Common Sense Parenting will everyone buy it & make me rich & then have huge bun fights on MN about how not everyone agrees with my definition of 'common sense' please? grin

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 17:58:48

HumphreyCobbler i agree with you up to a point but dont think NO always needs to be accompanied by a reason i have a teen i i think when you have a teen you will find this to be ture also

Sometimes its just no end of i am the adult and i dont feel i always need a cast iron reason followed by some drawn out explanation of why not somtimes

It boils down to i am the adult and thats not the plan for today

With younger children its helpful but with teens you will find you get drawn into and endless dialouge with then coming up with reasons why They should to your why they should NOT

Its best somtimes not to feed the best

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 18:00:54

I agree with dom sometimes cos i said so is the only reason they need, teenagers dont need huge explanations to argue with . as they said dont feed the beast grin

moondog Tue 12-Feb-13 18:03:55

Alfie Kohn's message (I have read one of his books) makes mroe sense in the context of America where parents tend to shriek and turn cartwheels and shriek 'Good JAAAAHBBBB!!!' and high five passing strangers when their kid does so much as breathe.

I can see where he is coming from but I don't buy into it personally.
It's a shame as he seems to be a genuinely nice guy.
He of course doesn't get rewarded throguh the books he publishes nad the website he runs.
Goodness me, no. He is intrinsically motivated!

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:04:11

Hahaha i put best i ment beast

For instance ds (13) just asked if he can stay home alone over night and i said nice try and then hell to the NO i dont need to go into why not he knows why hes just trying his luck.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:05:29

Mooondog grin

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:06:52

UP is not having no boundaries and no rules,if someone is parenting like that them they are not UP they are being shit lazy parents somehow i don't expect a book with that by line would sell well.

UP is making sure your children have the skills needed to manage and set age/ ability appropriate boundaries and operate within those you set due to it not being age/ ability appropriate for them to do so.
If your children don't have these skills or learn them as you go along then its not working for you or your not putting the work in.

No is perfectly ok just overuse is avoided, expectations need to be clear and rules are also ok.

If your children are little shits who cannot cope with school/ life outside the home then you are doing it wrong or it is not working for you.

My adult children all have very good jobs all my children are decent respectful of others and kind and not one of them was home educated nor do we rely on 'woo'

minkembra Tue 12-Feb-13 18:07:20

Receiving a reward- isn't that why we go to work? I may be proud of what I achieve very occasionally but mostly I do it for the financial reward. so surely training for life?

and as for rewarding being like a training a dog..thing is it works for dogs..and untrained dogs are a nightmare...and in terms of behavior small children and dogs- not that different. They both want love praise and affection and don't like to be ignored. (rewards can just be a hug)

....runs away expecting to be shot down in flames for thinking my kids and dogs not that different. wink

mrsjay Tue 12-Feb-13 18:08:13

Hahaha i put best i ment beast

i got you grin

sometimes the why and why nots is just not worth it

moondog Tue 12-Feb-13 18:08:32

'My adult children all have very good jobs all my children are decent respectful of others and kind and not one of them was home educated nor do we rely on 'w'

Loving that line of reasoning, that home educated kids tend to be semi feral sociopaths. grin

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:12:41

That was in response to the comments about UP often home educating, I have no opinion either way regarding HE other than how it personally impacts on my family ( my nephew is HE as was my sister for them personally it had good anD bad poInts) but its not my personal choice for my own kids,

AngryFeet Tue 12-Feb-13 18:14:52

God there are so many ways of 'parenting' now! Does it have to be so bloody hard? Talk about confusing new parents and making life harder for everyone. I'm sure this stuff does work for many people and that is great but it is ok to do things the other way in my opinion. I know too many people who don't shout at their kids or bribe them (like I do grin) and their kids are complete entitled little nightmares who think they can do whatever they like. Maybe they are doing UP wrong? hmm.

I subscribe to the 'do what you think seems right at the time' school of parenting. No books needed. I shout when I feel the need to shout, praise when I think praise is due etc etc. My kids are lovely well rounded kids who aren't mean to others, do well at school and are generally happy little souls.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:15:25

Moondog i think many were saying that many UPs home educated thus sheliding them for the true effects of this tosh

If they tried this is a real rules based environment it falls down pretty quickley.

moondog Tue 12-Feb-13 18:17:49

Oh gotha.
If it's any help, I was home educated in the middle of nowhere, never wore shoes and practically never saw a television until I was 11.

I'm about as far from a UPer as it is possible to be.

You're spot on in your observation there Mink
grin

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:17:56

Moondog i think many were saying that many UPs home educated thus sheliding them for the true effects of this tosh

If they tried this is a real rules based environment it falls down pretty quickley.

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 18:19:35

Parenting books, like recipe books, are good for ideas and for occasional following by the letter (although rarely a book in its entirety, of either kind).

As a rule though, there are going to be as many "best" ways to bring up children as there are children and parents.

Coconutty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:19:54

Right, now I now what it means I can 100% state that I have met some adults who have been UP.

They are all arrogant wankers, and will no doubt continue to be so for the rest of their lives. I hope their parents are proud of them.

ScottyDoc Tue 12-Feb-13 18:20:58

Hear hear coconutty grin

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:21:29

Angeryfet i think the problem is many people dont trust them selfs

I rea so many threads on here of mum who dont even trust ther own mothers or MIL to look after there children because there follwing some stupid book and scared the mother in law might give there child a sweet insead of a organic rice cake or actally tell the child of instead of letting the child choose if they want to behave

Very sad

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 18:22:13

I mostly practise what I would consider to be UP. My children are very polite and caring, school have never had any issues with dd1 (possibly that she is a bit too quiet, which is a personality trait rather than an issue).

They have boundaries and they are aware of why those boundaries are there. Even at the age of 2 dd2 knows she can't always do what she wants to do, but that has been achieved without punishments like time out or rewards. I ask if she's proud of herself instead of telling her I'm proud of her, I talk about how it makes other people feel when she does something rather than just insisting she stops it. It takes a little longer but she rarely needs much explanation in the heat of the moment because we've done most of the discussion before the event. The example of not putting a seatbelt on on a plane wouldn't happen with us because I would have talked her through it a few times before the journey and she would accept it.

I'm not sure how easy it would be with another child because I've never parented other children. But I do look at my nieces and think they couldn't possibly be worse behaved following UP than they are growing up with constant praise for even the slightest achievement and punishments for every little thing. UP would make for a happier household in their family I think, rather than the constant roller coaster between 'good girl, you did that really well' and ' that was really naughty, now I'm taking your favourite toy away from you'.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:26:23

If they are arrogant wankers then they have not been UP there parents probably ignored the have rules and expectations and teach them the skills to manage attitude and behaviour aspect.

I expect that means they were allowed to run riot. That it not UP

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 18:27:53

I don't UP, obviously as I had not heard of the term until today....

I give praise, but I praise the action and talk about what they have done and why their attitude/behaviour is good. I do tell my sons NO, but I explain why they can not do certain things. We talk alot about how he feels/i feel/ his brother feels when one of them belts the other one.

I rarely raise my voice, but I do raise my voice if necessary. I have never taken a toy away in punishment, infact I have never had to 'punish' any of my children.

I am a teacher and I guess I parent just like I teach.

I just think this is natural parenting.... I don't have to refer to a manual to check I am doing it right, I just go with the flow. I have never read a book on bringing up babies or children.

When did it all get so complicated?!

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:28:54

So if there are no pushiments what happens when the child is not ready to stop hitting even when told how much it makes mummy feel sad?

JenaiMorris Tue 12-Feb-13 18:30:25

Ah, the explaining why something is good comes, I'd wager, from your teacher training. I don't think it is that obvious to everyone.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:31:03

And as i surspect most on here who pratcice this have very small pre school children and dont have older children or teens

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 18:32:10

Then I would move away (or move her out of the situation) and tell her that I can't be next to her when she is hitting but when she is ready to stop hitting then she is welcome back to play. That isn't a punishment, generally I would be right there next to her explaining why I wasn't letting her hit anybody, it's a natural consequence of her actions. 'If you hit people then other people won't come close to you and play with you because it hurts them and they don't like it'.

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 18:33:15

Dom I have a teen. She's been UP from way before I heard the term, it's probably my natural parenting style.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:33:30

You remove the child from the situation.

sweetestB Tue 12-Feb-13 18:33:32

I don't use rewards a lot and do my best to reason as much as I can possibly can, but without boundaries and some sort of discipline/ punishment ( taking toys/tv/game/playdate) away my already wild child would be uncontrollable

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:33:47

Girloutnumbered i would imagain you work in primary school ?


I do agree with what you said but would iamgain a more robust approched would be needed in high school and explaing to a 15 year old why telling you to F off would really bare much fruit

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:35:25

Dom I have adult children teens and tinys

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:35:39

Sockreturningpixie what if your on the bus ? There are many situations were you cant just leave espically when there is more than one child again thats why its falls down in any envoirment were there is more than one person to take care of eg a school

Coconutty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:35:57

No it means they think the World revolves around them and they can do what they want.

This thread is certainly helping me put a few faces to UP.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:36:04

Sockreturningpixie fair enought

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:37:16

What on earth would any of my children be doing hitting people on the bus?

The expectation when we are on a bus is to be safe sit down respect other passengers and do not distract the driver.

These are rules.

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 18:37:58

Dom no it doesn't bear much fruit in secondary. I use a lot of the same techniques as UP in my teaching (I teach Secondary Maths) but backed up with the school system of rewards and punishments. Mostly because the pupils aren't used to UP and know where they are with rewards and punishments. I would much prefer it if I could use UP techniques all the time but it actually isn't possible with 32 teenagers that I see 3 times a week and who are taught/parented in a completely different way for the rest of the time.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 18:39:26

Children brake them i seen plenty of children side by side in the buggy bay giving each other diggs from there pram

You cant get off the bus and remove the child and lets say asking them to stop when they are good and ready has not worked

And lets say telling them it makes you feel sad is not working what next

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 18:40:38

Coconutty that really doesn't reflect how other people see my children. It might be how you would see them but most people comment on how much they think about other people before they act (dd1 mostly as dd2 is still a toddler) and how self motivated they are. There is never any mention of the world revolving around them.

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 18:44:20

Dom you would remove said child from the situation. So they would be moved away fromt eh person they are hitting. If that means moving to another section of the bus that's fine, if it means me having to hold onto her so she can't hit that's fine as well because rules are rules and I'm keeping somebody safe. That is allowed in UP. I would be explaining all the time what I was doing and why.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:44:55

If they are in a buggy one would assume they are rather little and just poking each other not causing distress or distraction then leave them be.

If its causing a problem or distraction then remove each other from reach whilst making it clear that conduct is not ok.if that's not possible the natural results of a dangerous action would be removal from the bus at the earliest opportunity.

In all fairness that's never happened to me I always had buggy books or other distractions when ever on the bus.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:48:14

And where does the stopping bad behaviour when they are good and ready to come from?

ScottyDoc Tue 12-Feb-13 18:49:42

Schooldidi it goes both ways though don't you think? Some UP parents don't see their kids as a problem, but from someone else's perspective, they may see the total opposite. I have a friend who does UP and whilst I hate her constant advice/comments on my parenting and think she is PFB and may learn some lessons with subsequent possibly difficult kids her son is very pleasant and sounds like your dc's. I do believe some kids parented with boundaries, no matter what style/technique it is, can be nice kids and decent adults, but it seems from what the majority of people see from UP kids and parents, the outlook certainly is not a positive one in general.

MiniTheMinx Tue 12-Feb-13 18:49:52

Same here Schooldidi I heard about UP from a thread on MN about a year or so ago. When I started to read about it I realised that it is pretty much the natural default in this house. I laughed when I read about saying no and giving reasons to teenagers...........no one else here have a two year old who persistently asked "why"?

Coconutty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:51:21

schooldidi you have no idea how people really see your children.

I think it sounds like a cop out tbh, for people who CBA parenting properly.

Might try it next time I can't be bothered.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:56:57

Its fairly safe to say that if your child has no behaviour related problems anywhere nobody gets the cats bum face around them and they are welcome most places that there probably ok.

Its also safe to say if they grow up to be decent law abiding adults who are respected and liked in the work place and have a large social group then they probably are also ok.

Its not lazy patenting at all unless you have failed to grasp how it actually works or the building skills aspect of it.

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 19:00:46

How do you know I have no idea how people really see my children? I think the majority of my friends and family are pretty forthright actually.

I don't think it is a cop out, it's actually harder to explain, and explain and explain again than it is to just say 'no, don't do that, if you do you'll go into time out'. It takes more thought to say 'what do you think of that painting? Which bit do you like best?' and be genuinely interested than it does to say 'that's a lovely apinting dear'.

I think some people claim to be following UP when they aren't and that gives everybody who does follow UP principles a bad name. Same as most other things in life, there are people who do it properly and there are people who don't.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 19:03:08

Coconutty i agree my sisters boy is a nightmare she can never get any one to have him they usually give her any reason they can why they cant have him

And even my oh reached the end of his teather after a week of him in the summer but she thinks everyone adore him confused no one would dare tell her the truth instead using words like livey ,cheeky, inderpendant

I have agonised over telling her what people really think

No one really has any clue what peole think of there kids

goingupinfumes Tue 12-Feb-13 19:03:45

Arhhh a light bulb moment - that's what my old neighbours must of been doing with their children this UP stuff -I was left gobsmacked when her 5 year old picked up a large branch and lifted it above his head and swung it around, narrowing missing my DS and missing taking my DS's eyes out - her words were "Darling your so strong and clever living that heavy branch, but please swing it lower so you are safer"

I was stood there mouth open thinking WTF - she's just told him he's a good boy for swinging a spiky heavy branch in my DS's direction, no shouting, no lesson, just a fluffy load rubbish.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 19:05:29

Then Dom for his sake you must tell her, and explain that perhaps her approach needs tweaking.

If your not have enough then you all have to not be around him she should figure that out sharp ish.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 19:05:44

I work in a secondary school and I don't get told to F off! I'm fair, have clear boundaries and follow up sanctions and I am known to shout, it's rare, but it's fierce!

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 19:07:45

GirlOutNumbered so you use sanctions, somtimes do shout so just like the rest of us then grin i dont think the up guy would like it though

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 19:08:17

Oh and my children get described as kind, respectful, considerate ,can always be relied on and polite.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 19:09:31

Yes, I can't help the occasional shout. I have a fierce temper! The school has sanctions so I follow their lead. I don't think I have sanctioned my boys yet,.. I tend to give them choices when misbehaving.

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 19:09:59

I don't consider that UP though, that's praising something dangerous and not giving rules and boundaries. She might think she's doing UP but she has got the wrong end of the stick if she does. Personally I would have told dd that it isn't safe to wave sticks like that and she needs to put it down. If she didn't then I would have removed it from her and explained that it was to keep people safe, then distracted her with something else.

That isn't the case with either of my dds though Dom, I never ever have a problem getting somebody to have them if I need them to, dd1 has loads of friends who invite her to their house regularly, so I don't think anybody thinks of her as a nightmare.

MiniTheMinx Tue 12-Feb-13 19:11:54

What exactly does shouting and threatening convey, genuinely puzzled. Would you shout and threaten sanctions against another adult? would it work or would they just become more entrenched in their position?

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 19:14:19

Sockreturningpixie i have tried in leaving suttle hints but she insists they have to learn to self displine and in the end they will work out whats right and worng themslefs, to be fair on her her daughter is naturally leaning to being well behaved and dose not need being told off very often

But my nephew could really do with some boundries and i think her letting him watch 15 and 18 rated films is not helpful my oh feels he very over sexulised for his aged which he found very diffcult when he stayed in the summer
She says if hes scared he wont watch and he will self censor WTF

HumphreyCobbler Tue 12-Feb-13 19:15:45

just popped back in to say that I too do not always have the time or patience to give a reason for saying no grin

I was trying to convey a sense of what UP is, rather than what was being touted at UP earlier in the thread.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 19:16:14

MiniTheMinx if you ficked up at work i reckon you would be shouted at and or sanctioned

I once ididnt lock up propley when i worked in a shop the shop was open all night i got a right bollcking and got a warning

From that day always double checked the door

SJisontheway Tue 12-Feb-13 19:17:19

I think it probably works ok for some families. I think the method can break down when you have a spirited preschooler.
My cousin uses UP with her DD. Everytime her DD hits, pushes, bites they have a little chat about feelings. And then the behaviour is repeated. It seems all this little girl is learning is that every time she misbehaves, she has a nice little chatwith mummy. Then its buisness as usual. I feel that consequences might help this little girl to moderate her behaviour.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 19:18:08

Then she's not UP she's being a giant cock, children are perfectly capable to self regulate but only if you have taken the time involved teaching them how and making it clear why its required.

Stop being subtle with her actually say " this UP marlky you have missed out the education stage and fucked up,your younger child is a little shit and tats a shame because he can be so lovely when you give him decent foundations"

MiniTheMinx Tue 12-Feb-13 19:21:58

I have never been shouted at in any position of employment, neither have I shouted at those I supervised. Shouting at people is abusive. If DP started shouting at me, I wouldn't consider that any request he was making was reasonable. I suspect others would feel the same, no right to shout and no right to make demands upon other adults etc,..... but fine to shout at and terrify young children or make unnecessary and sometimes unsubstantiated demands upon other people as long as they are under 18yrs.

Domjolly Tue 12-Feb-13 19:22:42

If i did she wouldnt talk to me again then i wouldnt be able to keep any eye on him she also sees a herbalist and rearely takes them to the GP FFS

wreckedone Tue 12-Feb-13 19:24:05

I went to a group where someone who is a very proud AP'er was with her children. Her nearly 3 year old stamped on my 16 month old's hands to stop him playing on the climbing frame. When I said "that wasn't very kind" his 5 year old brother said "my mum says we can do whatever we want".

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 19:24:39

Well it all sounds very wooly and wishy washy. Yes If a child is doing something wrong they ave to have a no. If a child up child is beating the crap out of another child they have to be punished like everybody else. In the real world they most certainly would, none of this reasoning rubbish

If I saw an adult about to harm someone else or put themselves in danger then I certainly would shout to warn them.

Just today we had a situation where I was very glad of my parenting style, regarding crossing a road when I could see a car coming but DS3 (Y4) didn't see it. I didn't shout, but I did say "Stop!" in an authoritative tone of voice. DS3 obeyed instantly, without question, and didn't step into the road.

MiniTheMinx Tue 12-Feb-13 19:42:20

As far as I can see, allowing children to run riot with no boundaries, no supervision is just lazy parenting. I freely admit I was lucky, I didn't have biting children or stick wielding menaces.

I see so many parents glued to their telephones pushing bored looking toddlers in forward facing buggies around shops. Mums talking to each other and ignoring their children until they have to shout to be heard, or run after the child. Parents who seem annoyed because their child is inconveniencing them when they would prefer to be talking to other adults. You only get out what you put in. If you want a child to take turns in conversation and listen, ditch the phone and buggy and interact with the child, put child on hip and talk to other people, let the child observe, join in and learn......talk to them.

Yes, when I had three under 2.5 and had a long walk to get DS1 to school, I didn't use a buggy. I had all three of them in a sling at the same time. smile

Mini: I do agree with your intentions and with the ideal (interacting with and communicating with your children), but in real life I had to adopt a different style from AP in order to get out of the house and keep them safe at the same time.

ditziness Tue 12-Feb-13 19:56:07

ooh was this all inspired by my mentioning Unconditional Parenting yesterday? crikey

Personally I can't do it as it's too natrual for me to say well done. I do try to be a bit more mindful though, and not just shout no, or well done and ignore the actual person I'm repeating myself at. But depends on how much sleep I've had. All these things are interesting though and can influence you. You don't need to follow things to the letter

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 19:57:56

"What exactly does shouting and threatening convey, genuinely puzzled. Would you shout and threaten sanctions against another adult? would it work or would they just become more entrenched in their position?"

Mini mercifully, grown adults, have a totally different ability to apply reason/logic/understand consequences/perceive atmosphere/mood etc, etc...than your average 3 year old.

I can just by how you write your posts that you are much given to over-wordy, lengthy-lengthy explanations about everything, and anything...and I expect, you think this makes you a superior communicator, yes?

Actually, I strongly suspect that whilst you are in full, lengthy-lengthy explanation mode, all your child actually hears is Blah...blah...blah...blah - remember, how the kids in the Peanuts cartoon, used to hear adults speaking?

Young children have a very different perception of the world, and even though they hear words, it certainly doesn't mean they process them, or even apply them in any way similar to the way an adult would.

As for applying abstract concepts like feeling proud to a 2 year old...that's a pretty meaningless concept to them.

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 19:58:52

I woud hate to carry ds 12 months on my hip whist doing shopping I would kill me he is very heavy. Ds is in a forward facing buggy I always talk to him and describe what we can see

LaQueen Tue 12-Feb-13 20:00:25

I take it Mr Kohn gives all the profits he makes from his books to charity, yes - because, he would never be motivated by such rewards as the royalty payments for his books...oh no, of course not hmm

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 20:00:32

Totally mac queen I agree, long convoluted sentences and complicated concepts to a 3 year old who has not got a clue what your on about

SirBoobAlot Tue 12-Feb-13 20:04:12

I follow a gentle parenting route with DS for many reasons. There's no need to shout or smack, children can be reasoned with if you take the time to understand what it is they are trying to achieve, learn or communicate by an action.

Also found that asking myself why I was saying no to something was a huge learning curve. Safety issues are obviously different, but when I started considering what DS was trying to find out from various things, it became much more relaxed for both of us.

ChestyLeRoux Tue 12-Feb-13 20:06:05

Im not a shouter really.Can be sometimes but Im more of a gentle parent.I think some of the up stuff makes sense.

MiniTheMinx Tue 12-Feb-13 20:06:22

And children of four entering school unable to form sentences, is that as a result of parents speaking to their children, or not speaking to them?

People learn on a need to know basis, children learn to reason and they learn logic because they need to. If you have no expectation that they will understand you when you speak, why speak at all?

SirBoobAlot Tue 12-Feb-13 20:07:09

Really, pigletmania? My 3 year old can tell you the process for embalming in sequence with reasons for each part whilst correctly naming the canopic jars (he's interested in mummies), how an engine works, what condensation is, and why the sun is a secondary light source.

If you explain to them, they will listen.

We don't give children enough credit.

ChestyLeRoux Tue 12-Feb-13 20:07:35

I cant say I agree with laqueens last post.

ScottyDoc Tue 12-Feb-13 20:11:20

Mini did you consider for a sec that not all people can afford parent facing pushchairs?

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 20:12:58

Then Dom I can understand why you hold the views you do.

But rest assured that what she is doing is not UP its piss poor parenting by some one who has taken the easy option of doing nothing.

UP is by no means an easy option nor is it a cop out and its not letting your children run riot or encouraging them to think they can do what ever they want,its teaching them whats expected of them keeping them safe giving them the skills to respect others trusting them to do so when its age appropriate to do so and teaching them that all actions have natural effects or even sanctions that happen because they did what they did.

Two easy ways to explain the natural sanctions are

1. Child who is old enough to know where there dirty laundry goes who does not put it there ends up not being able to wear what they want and if they ignore polite reminders ends up with nothing to wear so has to miss social events unless they wish to attend in there pj's.they would not have to miss school as you will be aware they haven't done as required so will have a clean uniform to hand.

2.child who is often late to school will have to deal with any punishment dished out by school and due to an inability to self manage the morning routine will be woken earlier and assisted to do so until such time as they have cracked it.

sweetestB Tue 12-Feb-13 20:14:29

Why the sun is a secondary light source.?

SirBoobAlot Tue 12-Feb-13 20:15:16

Scotty you can pick them up second hand for the same price as a Maclaren. A lot of people just aren't aware of the need to communicate with a child whilst they're in the buggy. I have friends that work in child care, and they all say you can tell the difference between a child who has been forward facing, and those that have been parent facing.

However, agree that the price of pushchairs generally are ridiculous.

Viviennemary Tue 12-Feb-13 20:15:41

I wasn't exactly sure but had an idea that it's to do with letting your child do what it wants. Don't suppose it applies to the parents as well. Sounds ridiculous to me.

thebody Tue 12-Feb-13 20:18:59

Agree LaQueen.

So much total bollocks talked about raising children from Victorian times through to now.

All these concepts and styles are made up and written down, often by men, to instruct women to follow different styles of parenting.

And it's ALL about the money isn't it.

The only sensible child care book I read was DR Greens toddler taming.

Just do what suits you. If you have to read it and don't feel it instinctively then its usually a load of old bollocks.

ChestyLeRoux Tue 12-Feb-13 20:19:10

I definitely dont think which pushchairs you have makes any difference tbh.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 20:19:48

No Vivienne

Its making sure your child has the skills to be trusted to behave well.

BlueberryHill Tue 12-Feb-13 20:19:49

Genuine question Sock, on scenario two, in September I will be taking three children to school, all to the same primary school and we would need to leave the house at the same time. If one child is not ready to leave and has to face the punishment of the school, all three children would be in the same situation, even if two were ready to go. How would you approach it, I can see getting the late one up earlier but if they are still on a go slow and end up being late, what do you do. It is a genuine question and something that I do now really. We have everything ready to go the night before but it is chivying the eldest to get ready.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 20:20:35

The body,

Well the mumsnet ones rather good

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 20:21:03

Well sirboob a lot of chidren might. I guess my experiences are different as dd as ASD and dev delay and I was criticised by salt for using too much language and too long sentences. I went on the Hanen Crse which emphasised shorter sentences, emphasising te important bits. I sed to switch off when my DM used to ramble n at me and I am sre tat many kids would

IvorHughJangova Tue 12-Feb-13 20:21:42

I've not followed most of this <tired> but am shock and aghast at the number of Maryz's posts that were deleted!

Maryz, you naughty thing, what did you do?!

BlueberryHill Tue 12-Feb-13 20:24:37

On the pushchairs, really, what is the evidence for that? How is using a forward facing pushchair as a factor isolated from other factors that influence the development of speech?

Please I would like to know, I have twins and never seen a parent facing pushchair for twins. My 2 yo tiwns are speaking in sentences and have a wide ranging vocabulary, preschool and others have commented on it, so its not just my perception.

IfNotNowThenWhen Tue 12-Feb-13 20:26:05

sockreturning, when you talk about "removing a child from the situation", that is timeout isn't it? FWIW, I had no idea timeout was not supposed to be a good thing, but when I have done it, what it really entails is stopping whatever ds is doing and removing him. I call that timeout, but is it not?
<confuzzled>

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 20:26:18

SirBoob - for me forward facing/parent facing wasn't about the cost, it was about dd2 hating parent facing with a passion. She screamed every single time she was put into the pushchair until I gave in and got a cheap forward facing buggy which she loved. She did spend a lot of time in the sling til she got too heavy (fairly quickly since she was huge to start off with), but then I had to go to work when she was 6 months old as well. I doubt anyone can tell that she was forward facing and in childcare seeing as she's a very articulate nearly 3 year old.

Oooh, we use the natural sanctions thing all the time, although I call it accepting the consequences of their actions. Maybe I'm more UP than I realised?

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 20:30:16

Blueberry,

Its simple you leave at the time you need to leave regardless of the readiness of them. A few times you may need to have uniform to hand just incase ones still only wearing vest and pants.

During the holidays as often as you can have dummy runs basicly dry run the required morning routine,make sure every member of the family who is old enough to understand the routine knows it and at the end of the holidays make certain they all know what time they are required to be at school and how long it takes and that each member knows when where and how.

The night before make sure you have shown them how much easier it is if they have stuff ready, if you notice things that delay them teach them skills to speed it up or reduce struggles.

If the children are at different school the one who causes a issue gets dropped off last.

Schooldidi Tue 12-Feb-13 20:30:26

IfNot surely timeout is when you tell the child 'you will sit there for 2 minutes and won't move until I come and get you', that's what most of the books and 'experts' like supernanny would tell you. Removing the child from a situation doesn't usually involve removing the child from all interactions, just removing them fro what they were doing. So I could remove my 2yo from the child she was hitting (hasn't happened often but it has happened) without putting her somewhere to sit by herself, she could come nd play with me, she could play somewhere else, or we could go home. None of those involve a formal time out.

Surely a sling is better than a RF pushchair? <plants tongue firmly in cheek>

But really, is there any evidence that shows a FF pushchair is worse than a RF one for communication? I used to always talk to DS1 who was FF, he had an amazing vocabulary range from a young age.

I think a parent who talks to their child regardless of the way they face is going to be fine and learn to speak when they are ready.

BlueberryHill Tue 12-Feb-13 20:36:33

Thanks Sock, I am finding this discussion really interesting, considering alternatives to what we do currently and I may be understanding it fully but it seems to be focusing on children taking responsibility for their actions, once they have the skills to do so. Hope I have that correc.t

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 20:37:58

No removing from a situation is not time out.

Time out is usually removing from situation and placing in a kinda isolated or pre arranged area for private thinking for a minute for each year you have been alive.

Removing from the situation is just that removing to prevent harm/ distress to others or the child but not isolating or often not completely leaving a venue ( unless venue is mobile or its needed to protect others right to enjoyment). It can be as simple as picking up placing on lap or as drastic as putting in car and going home but its impact on others that often decides.but no enforced time other than how long it takes to make it clear that is not ok behaviour and if appropriate why.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 20:39:53

Blueberry

That is bang on right.

BlueberryHill Tue 12-Feb-13 20:41:13

Oops missed out a not, as in I may not be ...

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 20:42:27

I realised that I do it all the time.

thebody Tue 12-Feb-13 20:50:52

Can't read whole thread.

I love my 4 unconditionally.

However in my 23 years as a parent, paediatric nurse, child minder and TA I have learned.

If you ignore bad behaviour it gets worse.
If you praise children and listen to them they blossom.
If you don't put a nappy on a toddler they shit on the floor!!
If you put a child in a forward facing pushchair they don't give a shiny shite and it doesn't damage them for life.
If you sling your baby lovely, if you sling a big toddler you usually put your back out.
If you ignore tantrums, biting screaming and such then you raise a monster brat who everyone avoids and dislikes.
If you co sleep( fine) you eventually end up putting them into their own bed.
If you set strong boundaries and rules of bedtime, sleeping, behaviour and expectations children feel loved, safe and secure.

If your toddler is in charge of you then he/she will be in charge of you as a teenager.

If parenting is very complicated or full of books and following rules then you are doing something wrong( excepting SN children)

Children need fun, love, education and good role model parents to thrive.

All else is fashion and nonsense.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 20:55:20

I love your post thebody

I wish this were Facebook so I could 'like' thebody's comment.

pigletmania Tue 12-Feb-13 21:00:59

Totally agree the body hurray for that!

thebody Tue 12-Feb-13 21:04:17

Blimey!!! I must be having a good night as usually I am crap!! Thanks guys.

IfNotNowThenWhen Tue 12-Feb-13 21:11:53

OK, so I did do timeout then, because I would remove ds from the room entirely. Surely if a child is hitting another child, being taken away to sit on your lap does not give the message that they have really been doing anything wrong.
Ds had a phase of hitting me at 2. I would say "no" and immediately place him in his cot. After that happened about 3 times he got the message and has never hit anyone since.

Sometimes I still sort of do timeout in that if ds is being wilfully unpleasant I tell him to go in his room and calm down, which he usually doesn't like, but then comes and apologises.

I am all for the idea that you should think about how your behaviour affects others, and I do encourage empathy(and happen to have a highly empathetic child-woo stealth boast) BUT if there are no real perpetrator affecting consequences then how do you really stop unpleasant behaviour?

For example, at school there are a few children who hit/ pinch/ generally bully. There never seem to be any actual consequences that theses children don't like. So, you can tell them that their behaviour makes other children sad. But what if they don't care? After all, it doesn't affect them.

UP seems to be about treating children as though they have the emotional maturity of adults. But they don't.Also, as an adult, if I hit you I would have to go to court and maybe even jail. There are consequences and punishments in life.

IfNotNowThenWhen Tue 12-Feb-13 21:16:27

I agree thebody-cept for the nappy thing-I hated changing pooey ones so much I did "elimination thingummy" from about 1 yr, which worked great for us.
And, really, are forward facing buggies supposed to be bad now? I didn't know! I learn so much on MN! Thank God I never went on it when I was lone parenting a toddler else I might have cracked up with the wrongness of my play pen/forward facing pushchair/ mashed up food muddling though approach!
(Ds not scarred for life as far as I can tell...)

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 21:26:49

It prevents them from continuing and if you are clear as to why they cannot do it,then yes they learn.

And there are always consequences but we call them natural consequences/ sanctions

Its not that different from what most parents do but its just got a silly name nowadays.

corinthian Tue 12-Feb-13 21:34:24

In my opinion, Alfie Kohn's book is quite good on the theory of why not to use rewards and punishments, but weak on the practice of how to set boundaries while not using rewards and punishments (and there's the question of what you term a punishment - I physically stop my toddler doing lots of things, but don't give him timeouts for example).

The book How to Talk So Kids Will Listen... seems like the best practical guide I've seen as to how to set boundaries without rewards and punishments, but is mostly aimed at children old enough to have a bit of a sense of reasoning, although some parts are still useful with younger children.

There are of course plenty of folk who use the term Unconditional Parenting to mean permissive parenting rather than parenting without rewards/punishments, which makes it a tricky topic to discuss as the two have become equated in many places.

wreckedone Tue 12-Feb-13 21:42:35

thebody I agree, except I sling my HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE 20 month old and don't put my back out-but I don't do it because I think pushchairs are crap, I do it because I'm too lazy to push an empty pushchair when he wants to walk, and carrying him means I can justify ice cream in the evening grin

SDeuchars Tue 12-Feb-13 22:25:16

I totally agree with Sock. I read a lot about "Taking Children Seriously" (TCS) when my DC were small (about 18 years ago). TCS is similar to UP and it gave me a lot to think about. I could not go along with the extreme evangelists for TCS but basically followed their thought processes. It was not easy (certainly not for those who CBA), esp with DD who has ASD traits. It was easier because I home-educated, so I could be consistent and could choose which battles to fight (e.g. not having to do the school run, so if we were late or did not get somewhere, it was the DC who missed out not me feeling bad for not meeting my commitment to school).

My DC knew from an early age that hitting, etc. was not OK and they are mature, sensible young adults with friends and able to follow both social norms and "arbitrary" rules when it is part and parcel of what they want to achieve (e.g. in college). They are not entitled or feral. Like Sock, I would remove from a situation and would restrain if necessary. I knew I wanted to raise DC that I would be happy to be around as adults and made choices (inc HE) that allowed me to play the long game. Incidentally, as teens we had very few issues. By that time, we knew what it was to live with mutual respect and I did not have to deal with conflict between my contract with the school and my contract with my DC.

FunnysInLaJardin Tue 12-Feb-13 22:28:14

LaQ DS1 only hears blah blah blah, lunch, blah, blah, blah like Homer Simpson. Neatly illustrated at the weekend when I asked 3 times 'do you want lunch now?' all ignored.

I then went in to DH and said I BET DS1 comes in any minute and says 'Where's my lunch?' And so DS1 came in and said 'I thought you were making my lunch' and so I said 'well you didn't answer and so I thought I'd wait until you asked'.

He swore that he had absolutely said yes he wanted his lunch whereas I KNOW the answer was given in DS world where he lives his other life. I really do think a parents voice becomes so second nature that it's like some background track to our DC's lives grin

LaQueen Wed 13-Feb-13 08:55:03

Totally agree with you thebody.

I am deeply suspicious of anyone who requires umpteen child-care books, to reference, before they can so much as put their baby on their hip "Oh, you see, I have researched this, and I only ever carry my baby in the Hirsch-Reichman position, as evidenced by the Hamouli tribe of New Guinea, who have exemplary posture...yadda...yadda...yadda'

Oh do sod off hmm

If your parenting technique requires endless reseach, study, book-reading, followed by endless explanantions/justifications to your baby/toddler/child - purports numerous complicated theories ...I have to ask, why do you want to make your life so complicated?

And, 9 times out of 10, I really think it's because the very sort of parents who gleefully embrace all I have mentioned above, had very little else going on in their lives, prior to having a baby...and, now the baby is here...well, they treat it as an on-going project, highly detailed, complicated and much reseached.

LaQueen Wed 13-Feb-13 08:56:28

Yep, Jardin am an experienced parents, who has worked in many schools...and I know that just because I am speaking, it never means they are necessarily hearing smile

mrsjay Wed 13-Feb-13 09:02:53

I think I love thebody a little what a great post smile

mrsjay Wed 13-Feb-13 09:04:13

*I am deeply suspicious of anyone who requires umpteen child-care books, to reference, before they can so much as put their baby on their hip "Oh, you see, I have researched this, and I only ever carry my baby in the Hirsch-Reichman position, as evidenced by the Hamouli tribe of New Guinea, who have exemplary posture...yadda...yadda...yadda'

Oh do sod off *

I luvs you too grin

pictish Wed 13-Feb-13 09:05:55

Nice one thebody!

Err...yeah...I think she about summed it up for me! grin

TroublesomeEx Wed 13-Feb-13 09:09:16

Absolutely agree with you thebody!

And you LaQ

(no original thoughts in my head today!)

smile

mrsjay Wed 13-Feb-13 09:10:27

nor mine probably wouldnt be able to put it as well anyway

cory Wed 13-Feb-13 11:19:06

Just googled TCS and they are wonderful, wonderful loons <jaw falls open in admiration>

actually, I probably do a lot of unconditionally stuff without even noticing, as my greatgrandparents probably did before me- a lot of it just seems like common sense

but the TCS is something different again!

according to the websites, you are not supposed to make the child brush their teeth if he doesn't want to, because it is his decision to have toothache

right, as if the 35yo businesswoman is going to be happy to live with decisions taken by her 5yo self hmm

BrainSurgeon Wed 13-Feb-13 11:24:30

the body can I please borrow your post and put it on my FB wall (I'll give you all the credit of course)

idshagphilspencer Wed 13-Feb-13 13:01:19

That post by TheBody sums it up beautifully.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 13-Feb-13 13:28:24

Cory the intention is to make sure you have got the child into the routine of knowing there teeth need brushing how to do it correctly and how important it is before they reach an age when they should be able to do it themselves, that may be 5 it may not be.

The child should recive guidance support and behaviour education until such time as they no longer need it and can be trusted to decide to do the best for themselves.

Unfortunatly some people misunderstand the idea and think it means the parent does nothing and use UP as an excuse for cba but that's a indervidual being crap not the intended method.

LaQueen Wed 13-Feb-13 13:54:44

"Cory the intention is to make sure you have got the child into the routine of knowing there teeth need brushing how to do it correctly and how important it is before they reach an age when they should be able to do it themselves, that may be 5 it may not be.

The child should recive guidance support and behaviour education until such time as they no longer need it and can be trusted to decide to do the best for themselves."

You see, I'm reading that ^ ^ ^ ^ , and I have to admit, my brain shuts down, and all I read is blah...blah...blah...blah, accompanied with rolling my eyes to Heaven, and a desultory shrug.

Maryz Wed 13-Feb-13 14:18:18

Yes, I wonder what you do when your 5/6 year old who knows what to do and cleans his teeth religiously every night turns into a stroppy 12 year old who refuses to wash at all.

Or is the idea that if you do UP you will never have a stroppy 12 year old?

Or do we simply come to the conclusion that if parents do UP, and their children turn into stroppy 12 year olds it's because the parents did it wrong?

Genuine questions, by the way. I am curious.

Though I too like TheBody's post.

Agree totally with TheBody

Also, can I ask where you get one of these rational children from?

My 3 year old has taken to her bed in a sulky protest because I tried to explain that snow does not automatically mean it's Christmas.

Earlier I was being completely unreasonable because I couldn't magic Alex Ferguson out of thin air hmm

Chunderella Wed 13-Feb-13 15:51:55

You total bitch, SouthernComforts.

Reading the thread, I can see how some aspects of UC make sense and might try and employ them when DD (6.5 months) is older. For example, I've read that it's better to talk to a child about a painting they show you instead of telling them how good it is. That makes sense, I can see how they'd benefit from the engagement, and praise can sometimes be almost dismissive. But others, no. If my DC is ever hit by another little one and the parent takes no action other than putting the child on their knee, I'm afraid I shall have to wade the fuck in myself.

Hullygully Wed 13-Feb-13 16:15:31

would you say good role model parents were essential?

<panics>

cory Wed 13-Feb-13 16:26:30

Sockreturningpixie Wed 13-Feb-13 13:28:24
"Cory the intention is to make sure you have got the child into the routine of knowing there teeth need brushing how to do it correctly and how important it is before they reach an age when they should be able to do it themselves, that may be 5 it may not be."

The TCS website I read suggests that you should never make the child do anything they don't want as that is coercion.

I even found a bit where David Deutsch the founder of the movement said it is wrong to make a child wear a seatbelt if they don't want to: you should either cancel the journey or let them travel without it, "just make sure not to have an accident".

Other posters state that if the child doesn't want to have their teeth cleaned it is wrong to interfer with their autonomy; this seems based on the idea that the 5yo self who doesn't want teeth cleaned deserves as much respect as their adult self who might not want rotten teeth later in life.

So if your 3yo decides he doesn't want his teeth cleaned, you simply can't get him into the routine according to orthodox TCS. TCs is built on libertarian philosophy and based around the idea that there is no right and wrong and that children know what is best for them even if it

Note, that I am well aware that UP and TCS are not the same. It's the TCS lot who appear to be loons.

Schooldidi Wed 13-Feb-13 16:43:42

Chunderella a proper UP parent wouldn't 'just' put the child on their knee. They would explain to the child why it wasn't a nice thing to do and showing them how upset the other child is. Small children hit each other. It's a phase that they grow out of if guided through it. How do you want other parents to deal with it? What does it teach a child to be put into time out? Is that genuinely more effective than the explanation.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 13-Feb-13 16:46:11

Sorry I did not realise you were talking about TCS,

There must be a reason I know nothing about that [ grin]

Chunderella Wed 13-Feb-13 17:04:51

Thanks for the information Schooldidi, I used that example as that's what a poster upthread said they would do. And I didn't say anything about time out. If the other parent didn't make it clear that the behaviour wasn't acceptable and had better not happen again, I most certainly would be having words with them and would be telling the child not to do it myself if necessary. However, it doesn't sound like that would be needed with your approach.

I agree with the specific praise thing. We try to praise for effort made, perseverance, thoughtfulness etc.

IfNotNowThenWhen Wed 13-Feb-13 18:26:27

I dont actually think there is anything wrong with "punishment" for bad behaviour.
Child does something bad to another child, child experiences unpleasant consequence.
That is what I think is often wrong at school;
Certain children bully and dominate relentlessly, yet there never seem to be any consequences that these children actually care about.
The hittee gets told that they should be better at sticking up for themselves and telling the teacher, and the hitter is told that that wasn't a very nice thing to do. Well, in year 2 they know that it isn't a very nice thing to do. Perhaps if there was some kid of deterrent they might not do it.
I am not talking cattle prods and beating here, just something, rather than nothing.
Children are quite simple really, and they themselves have a highly developed sense of justice. When Augustus Gloop goes up the pipe you may think that he was a free thinking, insecure boy with an overeating addiction, and that what happened to him was not at all constructive.Children think that he fully deserved it...

GirlOutNumbered Wed 13-Feb-13 19:15:05

I told my husband about UP. he said 'have they not read lord of the flies?!'
grin

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 13-Feb-13 19:16:16

It was me who said 'sit child on lap'

I did also make it clear that this would be accompanied by talking about it being unacceptable

Startail Wed 13-Feb-13 23:27:43

I'm eternally grateful I have never met an UP child. It would not end well.

I shout, smack occasionally, hug a lot, EBF, co sleep sometimes, send DD2 to her room until she wants to be nice and have never own a parent facing pushchair.

I use rewards occasionally and praise if deserved and lots and lots of reasoning and explaining.

I call it the only muddling along with what seems to work school of parenting.

And you know what it seems to work, DD1 is the nicest teenager your ever likely to meet and DD2 gets school reports which glow in the dark.

They are both feisty, opinionated and as different as chalk and cheese.

And at 15 and 12 we rub along without me ever having to remove privileges, dock pocket money or cancel things and thus avoid a whole lot of resentment and angst.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 13-Feb-13 23:46:20

Well star sounds like your approach works very well in your family, change nothing carry on as you are and share the muddle on method.

Write a book get rich grin

psynl Thu 14-Feb-13 00:03:48

heard something true and amusing recently,

'For the first 3 years we teach them how to walk and talk, for the rest of their lives we tell them to sit down and shut up.'

Startail Thu 14-Feb-13 00:12:05

No book writing here, I'd need to get DD2 to 18 first and I ought have at least two DS to complete my research and at 45 that seems unlikely.

DD1 is a very quirky dyslexic with a deep self confidence and a huge amount of common sense. She's naturally immune to peer pressure and refuses to be a rebellious teen.

DD2 is her complete opposite, so as I say, research in through will continue for a few years yet.

Startail Thu 14-Feb-13 00:13:00

Research in muddling through

BertieBotts Thu 14-Feb-13 00:31:45

I know that Sears who is a bit of an AP-type guru says don't let your children choose whether they get to brush their teeth or not, because they took that approach with their eldest daughter and her dental health was terrible. They were a bit more hard-line with the rest, but suggested fun ways of being persuasive, DS likes "the food game" where I have to look in his mouth and say ooh, look, a green bit, what have you eaten which is green? etc repeat with various colours. Or the eee and aaah song which means he has to make the sound eeeeee to a tune or aaaaah - because that gets the mouth in a good position for brushing!

Then I made an excellent discovery one night when he was on a huge refusal kick, I said, okay, I respect your decision to not brush your teeth, but that does mean that you can't eat anything with sugar in. Which means no ice cream, no sweets, no fruit. Unless you want to change your mind and brush your teeth.

He lasted until the second story at which point he suddenly seemed to have a realisation and asked "Can I have sugar on my corn flakes?" and I said no, not unless you brush your teeth. He ran grin

Domjolly Thu 14-Feb-13 06:07:13

BertieBotts that is a clear saction dressed up as somthing eslse

So basically you told him if you dont brush your teeth you wont have any sweets

That is a sanction if ever i have heard one is ok you dont need to dress it up and up its what most parents would do go brush your teeth now or no seewts sorry love but i wouldnt need a book to tell me to do that with my kids

Domjolly Thu 14-Feb-13 06:14:37

Schooldidi really " children grow out of hitting " i surpect you have never worked with children over 3 in a ducatioal setting i worked in after school clubs for years when younger 4-11 years old and i can tell you children dont just grown out of hitting they are taught not to hit well some are


The ones who hit usually have no boundries there parents are either cant or will not displine there children with the expection of SN children i find parents children who hit,bully and pull hair inafectual and i sure a high school teacher will tell me i wrong if i am these children who

DONT LEARN at a young age that its wrong to hit ,bully just go on to do it at high school then sadly they turn up at the work place we all know somone like this somone used to getting there own way they dont grow out of it they just grow bigger and more alble

I never heard such a thing in my life

Lavenderhoney Thu 14-Feb-13 06:43:00

I came across a mum practising this method in the park. Her ds of about 6 started throwing sticks and sand at my dd aged 3. My ds ( about 6) asked him to stop. Dd ignored him. The mum just watched and commented he wanted her attention. I gave the boy a hard stare and he picked up a large stone and threw it at dd, hitting her stomach. Dd burst into tears, my ds shouted at the boy to leave her alone, boy just grinned and his mum said " he has to learn by trial other kids don't like that" she didn't tell him off or anything.

Dd dried her tears, went back to the sandpit, and seconds later the other boy was in hysterics as she had collected the stone and threw it at his head. I collected dd, and said we don't throw stones etc etc, time to go, and the boys mum was holding him tightly whilst he yelled abuse at dd and saying " I know how you feel, I understand your pain"

BigAudioDynamite Thu 14-Feb-13 07:17:14

The sun is a secondary light source sirboob???

grin grin at Lord of the Flies, mrOP!!

The main thing about UP, that makes me twitch; he proclamation that if you aren't UPing then your children will grow up believing that your love for them is conditional. That is the whole premise of the 'method'. That is the parents Achilles heel. It a con, using parents insecurities and fears

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 07:37:29

Lavender honey karma came to bit him in the bottom. Silly mother, a parent has to parent and that means correcting and disciplining yur children if they do wrong. In lavenders park situation what if that stone had hit her dd head and she had to be hospitalised, the full blame would be on that parent for not correcting the boy

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 07:39:54

Lavender I most certainly would have told tat boy off if the mother s going to sit back and let him do those things

flow4 Thu 14-Feb-13 07:44:17

The mistake many parents make, however they raise their children, is believing that they can control how they turn out. But '3 Ps' shape a child - personality, parenting and peers. Self-satisfied parents forget they can't claim all the credit. And even if it were possible to parent perfectly, your child would still grow up with habits and behaviours and attitudes that did not come from you.

bigreddrum Thu 14-Feb-13 07:55:40

I have a friend who is doing this technique with her son. I like a lot of the ideas behind it and she certainly has a lot more patience than me. However it is schooldidls' posts which made me take notice. My friends' son is going through a hitting stage at the moment and he is often drawn to my 18 month old - pushing, hitting, biting etc.. My friend tells him firmly to stop and tells him why (your friend is upset, you are making him sad, he won't want to play with you etc..) so far so good, HOWEVER all this takes TIME - as schooldidl herself says 'it takes a little longer'. Obviously if he doesn't stop he then removes him but it TAKES LONGER which means my son has to endure another minute of his hands being stood on / pinched etc.. than he would if she did as most parents do which is tell them to stop and then remove them as soon as they don't (if they don't). You can do the explaining AFTERWARDS when my son is not in pain.

I love my friend and her son, who is normally lovely, but I am finding it difficult to spend time with her at the moment because of this.

At the point when her son is hurting mine I don't actually care that he understands why it is not a good idea I JUST WANT HIM TO STOP, equally if my son is hitting someone else's I think it is more important to care about the welfare of the other child (and show my son that I do) and so remove him as soon as possible (IMMEDIATELY!).

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 08:01:08

Bigred why don't you say something to the boy yourself and remove your ds immediately from the situation. I don't care how the parents parent, if mupy child is getting hurt ad nothing is done I would step in e.g don't hit ds it's not nice whilst removing ds from the situation

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 08:03:29

In general I would not sit round and let my child get hurt they are not an a renting experiment, I am sure that others feel the same

GirlOutNumbered Thu 14-Feb-13 08:12:42

My son was going through a stage of hitting and normally I am calm and tell him why we don't hit etc... However, he then hit his little brother, who was happily sat in a bumbo, in the face with a trident (Halloween leftover!).

I shouted HEY! So loudly DS1 burst into tears and dropped the trident. He hasn't done it again!! I'm not saying thats the right way, I really don't want to shout at everything, but sometimes gut reaction takes over and I suppose being a teacher means that I have a loud scary voice. Interesting though that he now chooses not to hit people.

And yes I did take the time after to explain why we didn't hit people etc, but I think he already knew all that. The hitting and other behaviour generally comes when he is tired and wants a reaction.

BertieBotts Thu 14-Feb-13 08:16:24

Well I do UP and I would remove DS straight away if he was hurting another child. It's not about avoiding anything which might possibly upset a child. You should still immediately do damage control if they are hurting someone or damaging something.

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 08:25:02

Meant Parenting experiment

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 08:26:07

That's good Bertie. Whatever your parenting style if your child is hurting another they should be removed and not be allowed to,continue

bigreddrum Thu 14-Feb-13 08:36:04

yes you are right pigletmania I should and in fact have started to a bit now I have realised that she is taking too long. As I said it's not that she doesn't tell him no in a firm voice or that she doesn't remove him but it just takes a bit too long in my opinion. Also for some reason it makes me feel a bit angry that she is focussing on her child's 'feelings' when my child is being hurt. Maybe I am a bitch though….
Glad to hear UP isn't about that Bertie… maybe it's just her interpretation of it.

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 08:48:47

Bigred you need to take control I think. Your ds comes first

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 08:50:32

No criticism on you but I would

bigreddrum Thu 14-Feb-13 09:04:29

agreed piglet. I am a bit of a wimp grin

Schooldidi Thu 14-Feb-13 09:29:01

Dom Did you actually read the rest of the sentence you quoted? I said 'Hitting is a phase they grow out of if they are guided through it'. I did not say that they just grow out of it themselves, I said they need to be guided through the phase and out of the end of it. I am actually a teacher in a Secondary school and yes I do see some pupils hitting each other and you are quite right about it being pupils who haven't had consistent boundaries, but here's the important thing that isn't the same as UP. The children I see without the boundaries generally have quite chaotic home lives with parents who haven't really thought about how they are bringing up their children. That isn't what UP parents are.

Schooldidi Thu 14-Feb-13 09:36:01

Bigred I didn't mean it takes longer to remove my child from a situation where they are hurting another. It most definitely does not take me longer than any other parent to stop my child from hurting another. It takes me longer AFTER the incident to explain to my child exactly what was wrong with that behaviour. IE an explanation takes longer than the usual 'you're going in time out because you hit X' that I see my friends doing.

Fairenuff Thu 14-Feb-13 09:47:44

I am still struggling to see how UPing is that different to 'regular' parenting. So you still give consequences - if you don't brush your teeth, you can't have any sugar - pretty normal parenting in my eyes. You would still remove a child from a situation where they are hurting another, and explain why - again normal parenting.

What is really so different?

Does the child get to choose at what they eat and at what time they eat, what time they go to bed, whether or not they go to school, all that sort of stuff which is normally not negotiable under 'normal' parenting?

Schooldidi Thu 14-Feb-13 09:56:35

Fairenuff I don't think it IS much different to 'regular' parenting. There aren't any punishments or rewards, not even praise. That's probably the only way I'm any different to any of the other parents I meet. I don't use punishments, but there may be consequences of their actions (which a lot of people don't see as being different to punishments but I see quite a big difference).

My children get time out and an explanation. Otherwise I don't see how they work out what they did wrong. So, DD hits friend. I pick her up whilst saying, "we do not hit" in a shouty firm voice. She has a time out. Then I tell her why she had the time out and why it is wrong to hit. Then she has to come and apologise. I certainly wouldn't let her carry on hurting someone whilst I explained why her behaviour was wrong.

What is the difference between a consequence and a punishment? Genuine question.

RememberTheGoodTimes Thu 14-Feb-13 10:01:51

I have followed UP for my 2 and tbh I am very very glad I have.
Imo, UP isn't about letting the child doing whatever they want (As far as I know AK has never said that at all). It's about:
1- not using punishment and rewards as a one fit all solutions to all situations and,
2- when something happens, start with the assumptions that the child hasn't done anything wrong.

So that means that if you see a child hurting someone you will do something about it but if you hear some screams in the room next door, you don't automatically assume that your child has been naughty and hurt the other child.
It also means that you don't use fear (of the punishment) to keep a child in line, nor bribery (because that's what star charts etc... are. If you do X, you will get a sweet type of thing).

Interestingly enough I actually had no choice in doing UP because with dc2 (and to some extend dc1), punishment or reward never ever worked. Punishment just meant a child who was distressed, upset but had no idea of what he had done wrong. rewards, well he just didn't care what so ever.
The only thing I have consistently done is the 'going into your room to calm down' with the understanding that the child can come out at any point, whenever they feel they are calm enough again. A very necessary safety feature because of dc2 lashing out in anger on a daily basis.

I found that it worked for us because:
1- it made me explain, take time with dc2 to explain in words he could understand why x wasn't Ok to do.
2- It didn't say 'this child is naughty and is choosing to be like this/to hurt people etc...' but 'this is a child that has a problem. How can I help him?' The problem quite often has been plain education (ie he hasn't learnt yet that ....).
Moving on a few more years from the toddler times, I still use the same approach and I am very glad that I have because dc2 has been diagnosed with HFA.
So in effect, a lot of the techniques that I had put in place were actually exactly the ones I needed to have to parent dc2 effectively (and tbh, if this worked with dc2 with HFA, then surely it was going to work with NT dc1?).

One last word, there is a book often proposed as a fantastic solution to behaviour/parenting issue on MN. This is the How to talk to children. Tbh, their approach is my book along the same lines than UP. It's quite practical when AK goes into the reason and the philosophy of it and very little into the how. But they aren't that different.

mrsjay Thu 14-Feb-13 10:02:13

What is the difference between a consequence and a punishment? Genuine question.

ZILCH imo.

RememberTheGoodTimes Thu 14-Feb-13 10:03:21

Punishment is something you do to your child (eg you send him in time out) whereas a consequence is something that happen naturally (you don't put your coat on you get cold or you damage my ipad because you are reckless with it, I am not going to lent it to you again)

RememberTheGoodTimes Thu 14-Feb-13 10:04:36

There is no wish to put a child off doing something because they don't like the punishment imposed by you (ie the modification of the behaviour is based on fear of how unpleasant the punishment is)

pigletmania Thu 14-Feb-13 10:05:52

Just curious how do you se UP on a child who has sn. There are arents on here that use UP, who say tat they explain to ther child. Te language used sounds very long and convoluted. How do you do that for a child whos understanding is limited and who may be developmentally delayed?

But what about things that don't have natural consequences in the short term? If a child hurts someone that doesn't have a consequence for them unless you create one to demonstrate that the behaviour is not acceptable.

And I really don't think most 2 yr olds care much that another child is hurt/ upset as most are pretty egocentric. I do think they mind having to sit away from everyone else and having Mummy be cross with them.

Startail Thu 14-Feb-13 10:09:25

I'm never sure that taking a bit long isn't very counter productive.

If by misbehaving you are award with 5 minutes of Mummy's attention, why wouldn't you miss behave.

Mummy dares to ignore you drinking coffee and chatting, you bounce in the sofa, Mummy comes over. You are the centre of the universe again.

Result!

Schooldidi Thu 14-Feb-13 10:10:17

The difference between a consequence and a punishment is that a punishment is something you have chosen to do because you know the child won't like it, eg take a favourite toy away, put in time out, etc. A consequence has a definite link to the behaviour that is undesirable, eg, not being careful with your toys means that one of your toys is broken and you don't have it any more, drawing all over the sofa means somebody has to clean it and it's only fair that it's you seeing as you did the drawing, etc.

So the difference is a link to the behaviour.

Schooldidi Thu 14-Feb-13 10:12:29

Surely the consequence of hurting someone is that they no longer want to play with you, which you were enjoying.

mrsjay Thu 14-Feb-13 10:13:29

I don't think children like a consequence either we do action and reaction if you do this that will happen whether it is consequence punishment or whatever a child is either going to ignore you and do it again or listen and think about what they did it is all the same, NO little x you can't jump ont he sofa because XYZ ime they are still going to be pissed off that they can't jump on the sofa cos it is fun, whether it is explained in great detail or not,

Hmmm. I can see how this would work with older children. DD is 5 and I make her clean up any mess she makes, wouldn't replace a broken toy if she'd been careless etc. I do think at her age I can begin to use consequences to show her how the world works.

But with a toddler I still can't see it working at all. But thank you for the explanation. I think it's an interesting discussion.

RememberTheGoodTimes Thu 14-Feb-13 10:15:55

I did say dc2 is high functioning so he is NOT developmentally delayed and has good understanding language wise.
What he doesn't have is the ability to make sense of other people's feelings, to understand body language and facial expression so all that has to be explained to him (eg his siblings is angry and hurt, dc2 will not understand that 1- dc1 is feeling like and and 2- why dc1 has these feelings. All that has to be explained).
I can NOT be using convulated language as dc2 would not understand. I have to use very simple language (but clear and precise!) to show and explain things that most people would think are obvious (like the fact dc1 is upset or angry or sad etc...).

And most importantly, it meant I was always thinking that he needed help rather than being punished.

And it also means dc2 is very likely to lash out. In the mist of anger, there is no way that any explanation or punishment will sink in. The only thing that exists is the anger. Very clear with dc2 but also the case with dc1. Punishment brews resentment as the understanding of the 'why?' just isn't there.

Startail Thu 14-Feb-13 10:16:00

There is a lovely chapter in raising happy children about DCs lapping up all parental attention, even negative attention.

An UP long explanation isn't even very negative.

My DDad talked a lot, I was very good at not listening.

manicbmc Thu 14-Feb-13 10:16:42

I know a child who is UP (no SN) and he is still having major tantrums at his mother at 8. She may be doing it wrong but that child rules her life and not in a good way.

Only if you were actually playing with the child. Not if you were playing alongside them and taking whatever they were playing with. Then them getting upset and going to have a cuddle because they are hurt is a bit of a result.

X post. That was to school

RememberTheGoodTimes Thu 14-Feb-13 10:19:08

mrsay, jumping on the sofa meant, in my house,
1- an explanation and
2- the child being ' seated saying 'you just seat on the sofa'

Seriously, you can parent a child and set limits wo punishment. But it takes more effort from the parent to find ways to get through the child and ensure he behaves correctly.

RememberTheGoodTimes Thu 14-Feb-13 10:20:31

Long conversation and explanation are just useless tbh.
If you explain that needs to be short and concise.