Older boyfriend wants to retire early...??!!

(343 Posts)
foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 14:33:39

Hi all. I have no kids currently but hoping there are some nice people out there with more experience than me that can advise me. Essentially - I am 29, my partner is 40, we both currently work fulll time. I love my job (in pharmaceuticals), he hates working (teacher - gets lovely holidays off). He dropped a bombshell recently that he wants to retire at 55, ie 15 years time. We were thinking of starting a family in a few years. I think his plan is that I will continue to work (ie for another 20 years until Im 65, whilst he is retired). I hadnt thought that I would stop work as I enjoy it at the moment but I didnt see myself being the breadwinner

Am I being unreasonable to think he is being really selfish? He has money which he has made on property (about 80 grand) so its not like he's not going to be contributing to our relationship financially. His idea is that he will be a house-husband and keep things running at home. Does anyone else have such an arrangement, and does it cause loads of arguments? Its probably not right for me to say he cant retire early, as without me he could afford to do so, but Im just thinking - with a young family, someone has to pay the bills and I feel a bit forced into it being me

I feel I cant really make a big deal out of this yet as we dont have kids yet but it is something that keeps me awake at night. I'm worried that if we got married we'd end up arguing over it later in life. I know its a price you pay for going out with an older man but I just dont know whether I should put my foot down or not, help!!

GloriaPritchett Mon 11-Feb-13 14:35:45

YABU.

skullcandy Mon 11-Feb-13 14:37:16

i think a lot can change in 15 years.

Perhaps a trip to an FA would pay off and talk to him saying if its not financially feasible that he will have to put it off.

But i guess it depends on savings, pension...etc. Retiring early is great, but not if it effects the level of living significantly

OHforDUCKScake Mon 11-Feb-13 14:37:24

Unless you're not planning to TCC for another 10-15 years then surely its a moot point.

I mean, if you wanted 3, 5 or even 8 years to TTC the child(ren) would be at school so wouldnt you be at work anyway?

mummymeister Mon 11-Feb-13 14:37:57

15 years is a long long way away and whilst i am all for thinking ahead a lot can happen in that time re health, kids etc. unless he is seriously well off no one can afford to retire at 55 any more - average 30 years not working on current life expectancies. what he is saying is he doesnt like his job so need to encourage him to look at what else he can do. 40 is a horrible age and he is obviously having the jitters about life.Sit him down and tell him what you think if it is so worrying to you that its keeping you awake at night then you dont have much of a relationship if you cant just tell him now rather than letting it stew.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 11-Feb-13 14:37:59

*waited.

Not wanted.

snuffaluffagus Mon 11-Feb-13 14:38:20

Does he have considerable savings and private pensions? Because I'm not sure what the state/public sector pension will be like in 15 years time but it might not be too impressive.. £80grand is a lot of money but it's not enough to retire 10years early on.. It would be unfair on him to retire so early if you had to keep working.. I think it would make me uncomfortable too.

crescentmoon Mon 11-Feb-13 14:38:45

Don't teachers have to work al the way to their mid to late 60s? Does he think he can draw a pension from 55 or just mean he'll stop working full stop?

StuntGirl Mon 11-Feb-13 14:39:26

He won't be retired though will he, he'll be a SAHD?

KellyElly Mon 11-Feb-13 14:39:37

YANBU - these things needs to be fully discussed and both partners be in agreement.

KellyElly Mon 11-Feb-13 14:40:33

He won't be retired though will he, he'll be a SAHD? no because if he doesn't retire for 15 years and they have a child in a few years, the child will be a teenager. That will hardly make him a SAHD?

AmberSocks Mon 11-Feb-13 14:40:54

is 55 early to retire?Bloody hell,im a sahm with no intention of ever working again (unless i had to)but if i did the idea of working til i am over that age depresses me!

FeistyLass Mon 11-Feb-13 14:41:30

YABU and YANBU. (shuffles uncomfortably on the fence)
YABU - Imagine if you had spent your life working and saving so you could retire at a certain age and then your partner told you that you couldn't . . .
However, YANBU to expect it to be a partially joint decision. If you have joint finances then surely there does have to be a conversation about whether you can both retire at the same point? If you have to fund his retirement then that isn't fair. If your joint finances allow both of you to retire at the same point but you choose to keep working then it would be unfair of you to resent him for your choice.

NaturalBlondeYeahRight Mon 11-Feb-13 14:42:54

I have a similar age gap but I'm a bit older than you. When my OH mentioned this I said something along the lines of ' people live a lot longer now, do you really want to be pottering around for 20 years?' Also people age once they retire. Don't underestimate the ego of man grin
15 years is still along way off though. You'll be 40 and in a different stage of your life. Any children you might have wont be tiny then (I presume). He's only 40 now, could he not change career before children come along to a job he finds more satisfying? Maybe you could both go p/t?
Maybe he could have a sabbatical?

drownangels Mon 11-Feb-13 14:44:25

Loads can change in that time.

I wish I could retire at 55 sad

Not a helpful post.

Narked Mon 11-Feb-13 14:45:55

'Is 55 early to retire?...
the idea of working til i am over that age depresses me!'

Er, the retirement age is 67 hmm

Not sure how this is supposed to work.
Is he suggesting that you wait 15 years to conceive for him to become a stay at home dad? If not, there is not much need for a stay at home parent, as your kids will be pretty grown up!

How can he suggest this when he does not have any kids? I

He is 11 years older than you, how much energy is he going to have to parent when he plans on being a parent that old? 55 is young to be retired, but old to be a dad of young children.

To be honest, if this is the plan, you need to hurry up with TTCing a bit. You want ONE of you to be working full time when you are on maternity leave.

Realistically speaking, your oldest will start secondary, and not need a dad at home, in 15 years time... He would be better off taking a career break when your youngest (if you plan more than one)

Children are expensive. You may find you cant afford to stop working, either of you. You will be raising young children on a pension!

Also think you need some sound financial advice. 80k will disappear quicker than you think when you have kids.

Do you live together? Been with eachother long?

calandarbear Mon 11-Feb-13 14:48:01

I think a teacher retiring at 55 is a reasonable expectation, they take a big drop in their lumpsum but the pension is enough to live on and many go on to do odd days supply. I come from a family of teachers, my parents uncles and aunts all taught not one of them has worked later than age 60 on a contract but a couple have been semi retired doing either supply or in one case consultancy work.
I wouldn't like to spend 20 years working once my other half was retired though so see you point.

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 14:48:21

Thank you. I have no idea how I'll feel in 15 years...but my mother was a SAHM and I was thinking I'd prefer to work part time with kids rather than be away from the family. Feistylass, your first point is exactly why I havent raised it with him yet. I know its not going to go down well. But I guess I do need to make the point that I wont be financing his retirement if he cant afford to do so himself. I guess I have this old fashioned idea that the man should go provide for the family, Im worried he is just thinking of himself. Maybe that will change, who knows. Yes I think he is probably not dealing well with the 40 thing especially with our age gap

Seems to me with his timing he wants to stop working when the kids are too old to require much full time parental input, as they will be in school full time.

You will have the baby years of doing one heck of a lot of juggling with two full time working parents, and when they are in school, then your dp will "retire" and sit back and enjoy life, while you work your arse off to provide for both yourself, him and the children. Hardly fair on you!

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 14:53:33

Also we have only been together a few years, we dont live together yet but do talk about the future. Its all a long way off but its nice to have a plan...
His idea is to do a few hours tuition work in the evenings, and I guess a few days here and there consultancy or whatever. We would start having kids in a few years in the "Plan", so they would probably be about 10 I guess.
I mean - it could work if I take time off to look after them when they are small, I'll prob be itching to continue my career, I just worry I would resent him for being "lazy"

Actually, just reread and seen that he is your boyfriend and you are not married, and that he has 80k that he may invest into your future family life...

How long have the two of you been together? How long have you lived together?

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 14:54:32

Sigh PureQuintessence, I think you might have hit the nail on the head there....

Doyouthinktheysaurus Mon 11-Feb-13 14:54:50

I think yabu! If the option is there for him, why not.....this is one of the issues specific to an age gap relationship and something to consider before committing to someone a different age,

I know, I'm in one. DH is 14 years older than me, likely to be pressured into retiring by 60 or soon after. I'm a nurse so likely to die on the jobwink

Our dses will be late teens by the time DH retires. I will probably increase my hours to full time (currently do 30 hours a week) to maintain our lifestyle. I don't mind in the slightest! Although I wouldn't say I fully grasped the issues when we got together (17 years ago) we have discussed it plenty over the years.

The reality that I will potentially be widowed by the I time retire is what I struggle withsad have to enjoy what you've got though!

Holy cow. You talk about your "future", you dont live together, and your life together is a long way off? You are 29, not a spring chicken yourself!

confused

He is testing the waters to see if you will stick around to support him financially, before offering commitment. What a twat.

DH retired at 58 when our youngest DC was 9. However he was financially secure.
Would your DH can draw a healthy pension at 55 as £80k would not last long without a salary as well.
As to all those who say children don't need a parent at home when they are older, it is a huge advantage to have a parent around when they leave / come home from school and in school holidays.

I would suggest you try live together and commit to your relationship before you even start thinking about kids.

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 14:57:07

Only 2 years, we're waiting for his flat to sell before living together (and thats a whole other topic....what you do about living together when one person is selling a house and one person is renting!!)

Why is he selling his house? Is he married?

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 14:58:16

Don't have children with this man.

If you are 40 when you TTC your first child, you don't get to retire at 55.

You will end up working to support an old man while you are still young.

His pension will be shite if he retires that early.

Go and find someone with a bit of life left in them.

Not a young man already planning for his descent into financial dependence on you.

"what you do about living together when one person is selling a house and one person is renting!!"

It is quite simple really. He moves in with you and share rent and bills and you start life together. If this works out, fine you can perhaps get married and buy something together in the future.

If living together does not work out, you ask him to leave.

ChristmasJubilee Mon 11-Feb-13 15:01:11

Children in their primary years require quite a lot of input. They need taxied to activities, help with homework often taken to and from school. I often think how easy it was when they were babies and toddlers. I think his idea is good if he is happy to do the childcare and run the house.

Bearbehind Mon 11-Feb-13 15:02:25

Foxy, there are red flags being waved here, IMO. it's not difficult to live together if he is selling his place. You give up your rental and move in with him until his flat sells then you find somewhere together. Depending on where in the country you are, selling a flat might take a while. It sounds to me as if you are planning way too far ahead because at this stage he hasn't committed anything to your lives together.

Theicingontop Mon 11-Feb-13 15:03:14

His idea is that he will be a house-husband and keep things running at home. Does anyone else have such an arrangement, and does it cause loads of arguments?

I'm a sahm, and it doesn't cause any arguments, no. I don't see how it's any different?

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 15:04:30

Oh dear...thats a bit depressing! No he's not married!! Just selling his bachelor pad. He hasnt ever lived with a woman so it's all new territory, he's just thought about himself for a long time so I can understand he will probably need some training in this arena. I hope he doesnt think of me as future financial support but it is possible that he thinks that as he has money now, I would kind of owe the relationship.

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 11-Feb-13 15:05:52

I think YABU,
' I hadnt thought that I would stop work as I enjoy it at the moment but I didnt see myself being the breadwinner'

Why not? Why is it his responsibility to keep going in a job he hates and be the breadwinner without a choice? It's a matter for equal negotiation surely?
If you'd resent him for retiring, even if he does part-time to bring in some income, because that would make you the main earner with teenage children, then this relationship isn't going to work out well.

Narked Mon 11-Feb-13 15:06:54

'He hasnt ever lived with a woman so it's all new territory'

And he's 40????

That would set off huge alarm bells for me.

FeistyLass Mon 11-Feb-13 15:07:51

foxy the reason I think you have to have the conversation is that I've been in the exact same situation as you smile . Dh is older than me and has always said he would retire at 55. He's worked his arse off with that plan in mind. When he first mentioned it to me, I had a panic similar to your's. However, when we sat and talked about it, he thought we could both retire then but I would probably still want to work (I loooove working so that wasn't an unreasonable assumption). Your partner might mean the same but you won't know until you ask.
Word of caution though - I wouldn't be sticking around to finance him through his retirement if he sees his money as his and you need to support him. However, if he thinks you'll both have a nest egg big enough to retire at the same time then that's different.

expatinscotland Mon 11-Feb-13 15:08:17

He must be loaded, even now, if he thinks he's going to retire at 55. Hahahaahaa! Those days are over.

Why is he selling his flat?
Why has he not suggested you move in with him?

Oh I think this goes way beyond him just retiring early.

It is about what he invests in the relationship, and future family life. He seems to only think about himself.

You are taking a big risk, planning a future with a 40 year old man who has never lived with a woman.

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 15:08:36

Yes its true he hasn't committed anything to me yet. He says he doesnt feel ready to live together (I am!) but that he wants to within the year. He wants to sell his one bed flat (too small for me to move into) and buy a house, but I want us to rent together before we pick out a family home. I'd also rather be involved in the purchase if its to be a long term house, but at the moment its too soon in our relationship to be

Sallyingforth Mon 11-Feb-13 15:09:14

I don't think it's possible to lay down a rule on this. For some it would be a wonderful arrangement, for others it would be impossible. It all relies on your particular natures and the security of your relationship.
But the fact that you are already having doubts suggests that you might not be suited to it

PrincessRagnhild Mon 11-Feb-13 15:09:40

You like your work, and he hates his, yet you want him to carry on being 'the breadwinner' while you work p/t and look after the children, because you think men should be the providers...? Is that right? Why couldn't he look after the DCs, run the household and do some p/t tutoring?

LessMissAbs Mon 11-Feb-13 15:09:44

Sounds like hes onto a good thing...

It depends on how important having a motivated partner is to you. I know a man who was planning his early retirement at age 40 would scare me, because I'd still expect someone that age to be full of life and ambition. And I don't know how feasible early retirement will be in years to come.

£80,000 out of property is nothing, especially if hes 40.

My FIL took early retirement, 12 years before MIL, who has 3 children. She worked full-time as a headteacher while bringing up 3 children. FIL couldn't afford to go on holidays with them, so it was her and the 3 children. Possibly he didn't really want to. I find it kind of gobsmacking, as shes never had any time for fun, or for herself. It has also had a knock-on effect on DH, who has loads of ability but is short on ambition and motivation sometimes - I find it obvious that he lacked a strong, driven male role model.

expatinscotland Mon 11-Feb-13 15:09:45

And he's never lived with anyone and he's 40?! I'd run a mile! He sounds tight, too.

You are so not on the same page....

Bearbehind Mon 11-Feb-13 15:11:33

Seems to me he is thinking about himself far, far, in the future too. It's kind of unusual for someone of 40 never to have lived with someone but that is probably a seperate issue. If he wants children at this stage in his life he does not get the luxury of retiring early, the 2 things are just not compatible.

Your scariest sentance is where you say he thinks you would 'owe the relstionship' by then- that's like sayng you will be living in his debt for the next 15 years until you pay him back and that can't be a healthy relationship

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 15:12:18

Feisty thanks thats really helpful. But Im not sure I could ever see myself retiring at 45! Theres no way we could afford that. Yes he is 100% thinking about himself. But he hasnt committed anything to me yet :S

PrincessRagnhild Mon 11-Feb-13 15:12:23

It makes me really angry when I hear twats men complaining about how 'wives and children' are such a burden, but then you come across attitudes like this and wonder whether they might sometimes have a point.

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Mon 11-Feb-13 15:15:39

If the OP was a man and her partner a woman I wonder if the answers on this thread would be the same hmm.

If the boyfriend were the SAH parent then the OP would not be 'funding his retirement' confused

Anyway, it is good to discuss these things in advance although it is a loooong way in advance.

StuntGirl Mon 11-Feb-13 15:16:05

Sorry, I thought the OP was saying she wouldn't be trying for kids for that amount of time too. So his "retirement" and the onslaught of kids would match up. But if you're going to have kids in a few years and he's going to retire in 15, well, I guess I'd want to see full financial projections, including several worst case scenarios, to see if it was financially viable. If not then you can't do it, can you?

Narked Mon 11-Feb-13 15:16:30

He's 40. He's never lived with a woman. He has been with you for two years and 'He says he doesnt feel ready to live together'.

It's hardly promising.

StuntGirl Mon 11-Feb-13 15:17:48

"with a young family, someone has to pay the bills and I feel a bit forced into it being me"

Although this is the situation for many, many men as standard.

Bearbehind Mon 11-Feb-13 15:18:36

Pure quintessence, has just summed it up, you really aren't on the same page.

You said a bit up thread you could start a whole thread on how to live together when one of you is selling and one is renting but if he doesn't want to live with you, as you've now said, it's a bit pointless. There are ways it can be done if you both want it but if he doesn't want to, it's irrelevant.

Planning 15 years ahead seems to me like the last thing you should be concerned with in this relationship. There are hundreds of variations on what might happen between now and then. I'd try and sort out the here and now first.

LessMissAbs Mon 11-Feb-13 15:20:05

Yep, I don't think gender reversal would make any difference. People who look at meeting someone for a reason for retiring and living off them aren't generally considered that good bets for partners. There are probably more men looking for a woman to be a housewife or SAHM than there are women looking for men to fill that role. Even then I probably wouldn't think that much of a woman who saw meeting someone as a motivator for giving up work and living off their earnings for possibly half their life.

So what if he hates his work? Lots of people do, but they have no choice but to get on with it.

I'd have more sympathy with him if you were years into the relationship and he had developed ill health, or had planned for his early retirement, or you had children. But otherwise 40 is still relatively young and being so interested in early retirement makes him sound like a scrounger.

MrsKoala Mon 11-Feb-13 15:20:14

I think hypothetically it could work depending on your family costs. If he has 80k to draw from and the proposal is to use that to draw on. Then is 1k per month doable in 15years time. Because that would be about 7 years of living. What would his pension be and when would he be able to draw it? Sorry if I've missed that.

Having worked in schools and taught I actually think all teachers should retire at 55. It's a really physical job, you have to have loads of energy and be able to put 100% in and I have never seen a teacher over 55 manage it. All the ones I have worked with are just marking time till they can leave, doing the bare min to get by. I don't think that is fair on the children. They have lost all passion and drive. These are teachers who have taught since uni and in inner London schools. They hate it and are worn out.

What about if he retrained now, maybe doing home study and then worked part time from 55, supplimenting his savings?

VivaLeBeaver Mon 11-Feb-13 15:22:25

My dh is 50, I'm 36 and dd is 12.

I shouldn't imagine he'll work till 67 and he doesn't even have a private pension. However he does have a lot of savings, a second house and some land and I imagine will use income from sales or rental of some of that. Plus I do expect to support him a bit when he's in his 60s and I'm in my 40s. I don't mind that. I don't see why he should have to work till he drops if I've got a good wage and he doesn't need to.

However He's going to have to wait till he's at least 59 or 60 as if dd goes to uni I want him to work while she's at uni. Which I'm sure he would.

My BIL is much older than my SIL - he retired at 55 but on a very good police pension. She's still working. If he carried on for another 15 years until she could retire he might be dead and never get to enjoy a retirement. Which wouldn't be fair on him.

PrincessRagnhild Mon 11-Feb-13 15:23:32

Exactly StuntGirl. Apparently he's "lazy" if he doesn't want to carry on working full time in a job he hates when he's been working hard and saving up for early retirement. I don't think the same would be said of a woman.

Whether or not his retirement plans are practical and whether or not you should have children with him are a matter for debate too, obviously.

Bearbehind Mon 11-Feb-13 15:23:40

Just noticed his £80k was made in property, is that the equity in his flat?

If so, it's just probably just paper money as anything you plan to buy will have increased in price too. Plus, going from a 1 bed flat to a family home will soon eat up that money unless you can finance it in another way so it seems likely that £80k could be long gone by the time he is 55.

FeistyLass Mon 11-Feb-13 15:23:45

Oh, Foxy, PureQuintessence is right, this goes way beyond retiring early. He wants to live with you within the year but won't live with you just now. He's reluctant for you to have input into the next house he buys even though (presumably) that will be the house you will both live in . . .
He may be having difficulty adjusting to the mindset of being in a committed relationship but if he is then I think you should challenge that rather than accommodate it.
Before you have a conversation about what happens when he retires, you have to have a chat about where you will live together, when you will live together and how you both input into the decisions on finding somewhere to live and paying for it.
I hope it works out but if you find yourself lying awake a lot at night worrying about this relationship then please listen to your instincts.

You're 29, he's 40, That's the same age gap as my DH and I. In his job you retire after 30yrs- some could retire at 48, but if you're not able to discuss things then I would have alarm bells ringing.

My DH make decisions jointly, he tells me that he would love to retire mid fifties, but it may not happen. On the other hand, I would be happy going to work when he retires as he's supported me being a SAHM.

FunnysInLaJardin Mon 11-Feb-13 15:25:20

wow OP you have it all planned out. Seriously I would take this one chunk at a time. Why not get married if you plan to, then try to have DC and then reasess the situation.

There are so many variables in this that it is impossible to plan so far ahead. If you are happy together and love each other just go with the flow and see what happens

My DH and I, bloody contradictory statements from me.

MrsHuxtable Mon 11-Feb-13 15:26:07

A few things here sound off to me.

You've been together 2 years andhe's not ready to move in yet but knows he will be ready within a year. That sounds so immature. Either you are in a committed adult relationship and want to live together or you're not.

You want to start ttc in about 5 years when you are almost 35? I think that's leaving it a little late if you really really want a family, especially if you want more than 1 child. You might well not find it easy at all to conceive it at that age. He'd be 45 by then and those sleepless nights aren't so easy to live with, less so when you're middle aged.

He's never lived with a woman at 40? I think he sounds totally clueless aout what having a young family entails.

Sorry. Is it possible you want this relationship to be more than it actually is?

I'd get out and find someone my own age and then get on with starting a family. You don't want to stick around 5 years and then when you're not as fertile anymore, he tells you he's not up for kids as he's too old and wants to enjoy a peaceful life.

You need to sit down with him and make sme proper plans with a timeframe. Then you can see if you can live with what he wants and the other way around...

MrsHuxtable Mon 11-Feb-13 15:29:43

I don't think the OP should get married to her boyfriend first and then see how things plan out. They need to plan first and see if they can find a way to live together before marriage is even on the cards.

I don't think this is the same as a normal SAHP situation (FWIW DH was SAHD). If they move in together now, and start a family in a couple of years then the youngest child could easily be 8 or 9 by the time he retires. Surely that's when SAHP are considering going back to work not giving up for the first time.

I think you need to sit down and have a long chat with him. I brought considerably more than £80K into our marriage (London flat bought in a price slump in the 1990's) and I didn't feel DH owed anything financial to the relationship. Once you are married its not your money but family money. If he is still thinking "yours" & "mine" or valuing financial contributions then I really question if he is committed to the concept of a relationship.

Yep, I don't think gender reversal would make any difference. People who look at meeting someone for a reason for retiring and living off them aren't generally considered that good bets for partners.

His retirement plans are in fact by the by. It could work, if he was committed to the relationship, the family, and had thought about how to fund the future kids.

As it is, he has thought about how he funds himself and nobody else.
And that is where the real problem is.

Foxy, I fear that you are chasing after rainbows trying to have an adult and mature relationship with this man!

MrsKoala Mon 11-Feb-13 15:39:04

"with a young family, someone has to pay the bills and I feel a bit forced into it being me"

Although this is the situation for many, many men as standard.'

Yes, but they have a say in having children they know their wife will not be able to return to work with, so it's the cost of having children for them. The cost to the wife is not being able to return to work.

OP if you want to have children now, will you be planning to take time off to be at home or return after mat leave?

DontmindifIdo Mon 11-Feb-13 15:40:02

All age gap relationships have to face this, you are going to be at different stages of yoru life at different times. While you are both working and having young DCs, it doesn't really matter, but at the end of career, there was always going to be a point when he'd retire before you. If he wants to retire earlier, you will be living very different lives for a lot longer.

But 40 never lived with another woman, dating you for a few years when you are in your late 20s (rather than a woman his own age who'd be looking for engagement/commitment quickly if she wants DCs), but not asking you to move in and not proposing - I'd be walking away and looking for someone a bit younger or someone really keen to settledown and start a family. You're 29, he's 40, between you you dno't have 10 years to faff about.

KitCat26 Mon 11-Feb-13 15:41:44

There is an 18yr gap between me (sahm) and DH (every hour god sends own business)- I'm 29 he's 48 and DH talks of this frequently. We think maybe both of us working part time could solve it. It will mean some sacrifices, but the sooner the better in our case so the girls get to see as much of him as possible whilst they're still little (2 and 3) and he's still energetic.

You do need to talk about it properly now, and nearer the time sit down and work out what money coming in you could survive on. He may find that retirement is a bit of a shock and will just want a less stressful job instead.

FWIW, I'm hoping my DH will discover an enthusiasm for cooking and cleaning that I have never managed to muster!

LtEveDallas Mon 11-Feb-13 15:44:29

I married DH when I was 32 and he was 39. We had DD a year later.

DH retired at 41 and hasn't worked since. DD is 7, nearly 8. I returned to work when DD was 6 months and have been the breadwinner ever since.

DH has a pension of approx £700 per month. I earn a good FT wage.

I'd love to have been at home with DD when she was little, but it wasn't an option. Now she is older it is less important to me, we still have a lot of quality time together. I have no issues with being the breadwinner, just as I would have no issues if DH was the breadwinner.

I will retire in 2014 and receive a pension of around £1K a month. I intend to go back to work PT/Mums Hours because staying at home would bore me. Again if DH remains retired it won't bother me, nor if he goes back to work.

It can be done, but I accept that our situation is unusual.

Bearbehind Mon 11-Feb-13 15:53:27

The difference in your situation dallas is that it looks like your husband was a SAHD when you daughter was little and you did this at the beginning of the relationship. In this instance the man would become a SAHD when the children were about 10 so they'd have to find a way through the early years with them both working as the OP is unlikely to be able to have a significant career break from such a specialised field if she needs to carryon working in later life to support her partner.

I just think the OP partner is commitment shy and is only thinking about himself and his future aspirations without adjusting them to best fit those of the OP and potentially their family.

Him retiring at 55 isn't a bad thing in itself, it's the lack of consideration for the OP and her feelings which is wrong.

Having said all that, I can't help thinking there are an awful lot of bridges to be crossed in this relationship before any of this becomes an immediate problem.

tomverlaine Mon 11-Feb-13 15:56:11

15 Years is a long way off so seems a bit premature...
But i do find your attitude a bit/lot off- you expected to be able to work PT with children? and who did you expect to fund this?
On paper if he can be at home with an income (from his pension) whilst you earn an income by working full time - this seems more reasonable than you being at home with no income and him working full time.

But - as the sole breadwinner in my family- I do resent my SAHP - I feel under pressure to bring money in (bad periods at work seem really threatening)- I resent the fact that DP doesn't appreciate their work-life balance, or seem to enjoy the time with DS which I feel sure I would in their place. ALthough having a SAHP helps in some ways it would be easier for me in others (and feel more equitable) if we were both working as I'd feel I had more of a partner

badguider Mon 11-Feb-13 16:01:28

I think you are being unreasonable - i'm presuming as a man of 40 with £80k in the bank he's not assuming he'll live off you but that he'll plan for and finance an early retirement (which you mention will include some pt work).
Why not?

You'll get mat leave... and then you are assuming you'll be able to choose how much to work pt when your children are young and he's still working, why not swap over when he hits 55? you may well want to go back ft by then...

I think you have very old fashioned views about gender roles.

MavisGrind Mon 11-Feb-13 16:02:33

I think the notion of retirement plans are a complete red herring.

You have been together two years.
He still doesn't think it's a good time to live together but, somehow, this will change within the next year hmm

Deal with this first - children, retirement who's working when comes much much further down the list.

There would have to be a very good reason for me to commit to someone who has potentially got through a good chunk of their adult life without commitment. I suspect he could keep this spinning on for years...Do you really want that?

countrykitten Mon 11-Feb-13 16:10:15

I actually feel a bit sorry for him.

EssexGurl Mon 11-Feb-13 16:10:30

An old boss of mine had similar set up - married to older man. She supported him in her career when her son (from earlier marriage) was younger. Then when he retired, he supported her in her career. They were a pair of workaholics and the relationship could not support both working FT. But it worked for them doing a split role - one worked/one supported, then swapped. Both happy and fulfilled.

BUT you are talking a long time in the future. Why worry about it now - who knows what is going to happen?

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 16:17:23

I feel sorry for him too.

Imagine being 40 and thinking you had nothing to offer the world but staying in a job you hated for 15 years and then spending your middle age sitting on your
arse doing nothing.

What a loser.

Pandemoniaa Mon 11-Feb-13 16:21:44

He hasnt ever lived with a woman so it's all new territory,

And he's 40? Run for the hills.

LessMissAbs Mon 11-Feb-13 16:35:01

Princess Ragnhild Exactly StuntGirl. Apparently he's "lazy" if he doesn't want to carry on working full time in a job he hates when he's been working hard and saving up for early retirement. I don't think the same would be said of a woman

I'm just wondering what reception on here a 40 year old woman with an 11 years younger boyfriend would get announcing her early retirement plans!

FunnysInLaJardin Mon 11-Feb-13 16:37:42

MrsH I really do think that you can overplan these things. Provided the basics are there and there is a level of commitment, trust and love then you really do have to go with the flow. So many things could happen before you get anywhere near to retirement that it is pointless even discussing the details. You could die, be infertile, lose your job, love being a SAHP, hate being a SAHP a million things.

However if there isn't love and commitment then as like as not the relationship is going nowhere and now may be the time to bale out.

Jinsei Mon 11-Feb-13 16:40:44

Does he actually want children op? Or is that your idea?

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 16:41:48

"I'm just wondering what reception on here a 40 year old woman with an 11 years younger boyfriend would get announcing her early retirement plans!"

Don't forget her plans to have babies in her forties and then retire early, leaving her younger partner to support the family as her paltry teachers' early retirement salary diminished in buying power over the next 40 years.

OHforDUCKScake Mon 11-Feb-13 16:45:07

Never lived with a woman.

Not making commitmers to you.

Expecting to retire early and you to finance it.

And babis in 10 years?! You'll be 40 and he 50! Will he really want to at 50 when hes never made any commitment to anyone in 40 years?

Im really sorry I just cant see that happening. How is a non commited man going to suddenly become very commited at the ripe age of 50, so much so he wants to stay at home and look after babies?

MrsHuxtable Mon 11-Feb-13 16:46:50

Funnys Maybe, but I'm an obsessive planner and couldn't have married DH without the knowlegde that we want the same things within the same timeframe. I know unplanned things can happen and plans might have to be changed but getting married without agreeing on the basics is just a set up for heartbreak imo.

MrsKoala Mon 11-Feb-13 16:49:40

Sorry have I missed something, why are people saying babies in 10 years. Doesn't the OP say starting a family in a few years? And why would OP be financing his retirement, he has 80k and a pension presumably. Have missed a massive post? Sorry a bit sleep deprived confused

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 11-Feb-13 16:49:46

AThing:
'Imagine being 40 and thinking you had nothing to offer the world but staying in a job you hated for 15 years and then spending your middle age sitting on your
arse doing nothing.;

I could retire right now and spend the next twenty plus years doing all the things that having a FT job has got in the way of for the last 30 years. My arse would be considerably smaller too as I'd have time for long walks and proper cooking.

'leaving her younger partner to support the family as her paltry teachers' early retirement salary diminished in buying power over the next 40 years.'

A lot of retired teachers continue to work part time as supply or tutors, just that you get a choice about when and with whom you work. He could supplement the paltry pension that so many are jealous of.

DontmindifIdo Mon 11-Feb-13 16:52:32

I think by 40, if he's talking about retiring early etc, it's perfectly acceptable to ask him if he plans to marry you and have DCs with you and exact timeframes. He's really got to plan that within the next 5 years so it's really now or never for a man in his 40s. If he's stalling, that means he wants to say "well, probably not. Maybe marriage, but I don't really want kids." By 40, you either do or don't want these things. And not wanting them is fine. Planning your life out over the next 15 years to afford to retire early is fine - but only if you are fully open about what that means for your DP in terms of what you can/will offer them.

If you really want DCs, walk away OP.

FunnysInLaJardin Mon 11-Feb-13 16:56:42

ah well MrsH that is where we differ! I knew that both DH and I broadly enjoyed and wanted the same things ie marriage and children at some point but that was as far as our planning went. We are still together 25 years later and it's quite nice having a general idea of what might happen but at the same time not being fixed on it. Not quite sure how we would have factored in a redundancy and 2 MMC in our plans grin

Adversecamber Mon 11-Feb-13 16:57:05

Two years is a long time in a relationship. I always think if it is going to get to the next level, marriage or living together or dc then it would have ramped up by now. I think people know within a year what they want, even if it can't be achieved straight away. People knowing does not mean they discuss it.

I would not be focussing on the early retirement at all.

LentilAsAnything Mon 11-Feb-13 17:11:24

I didn't live with a man til I was 35 - not a huge way off 40. Nothing wrong with me, it didn't send men running for the hills. I simply didn't want to live with someone until I knew it was the right man. Geeze.

my twat radar is going off big time.

pretty much as quint has said, oh very wise person.

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 11-Feb-13 17:21:26

He may be a twat. OP may be delusional and seeing an intense, long-lasting relationship that involves children and pensions that really isn't viable.
Both need to talk and probably move on from each other.
FFS, they aren't even living together, how do they know that they won't drive each other insane over very small issues?

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 17:24:17

OK. He def wants kids, I think he doesnt fully understand the bit that has to happen first (i.e settle down, marriage, forming a solid partnership) and yes we definitely need to work on that. I am trying to tame a bachelor here!! He has had many girlfriends who it hasnt worked out with, for some reason he never took it to the next level with them, including one who he was with for 7 years which I find crazy but there must have been reasons. I do know he is a man who doesnt make decisions quickly.

I have tried to be more persuasive about living together sooner but he doesnt want to be pushed before he's ready blah blah. I realise that this is the bigger problem... I guess I just wanted to get an idea of whether or not Im dealing with a common problem or whether I have a genuine point that he is being selfish. I still have no idea!! It seems it works for some people but I imagine if I'd been consulted rather than informed about this I would be dealing with it better - and yes it is strange that he is telling me this so soon, & that it's already his plan. I think he finds work really stressful (he is head of dept). I seriously doubt he'll ever change careers as he likes having the holidays off.

I think my ideas are a bit old fashioned because Im not really happy to be the home maker as I enjoy my career and wouldnt want to give that up, or my financial independence. I just wonder if this is the warning sign of a man who is going to take advantage of me or...am I being unreasonable. Ho hum.

Dozer Mon 11-Feb-13 17:34:27

Doesn't sound like he's much of a catch.

After 40 sperm quality can be poor, so if he wants DC he doesn't necessarily have long to think about it.

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 11-Feb-13 17:34:48

Take advantage of you?
How? It's an odd attitude that you both have, neither of you seem to trust or consider each other's needs as equal to your own.
He doesn't sound manipulative, he sounds very set in his ways and that is very hard to change, if indeed you ought to. He may like the idea of children, but as with my ivory tower academic, the reality may be somewhat different to his imaginings.
Try living together in a rented place and see what happens.

MrsKoala Mon 11-Feb-13 17:40:20

I think as you say, he's made his plan and he's informed you, it's up to you if you want to go along with it. But I think you would be unreasonable to try to talk him out of it. He's set in his ways, he knows what he wants (probably why everyone else has not stuck around), don't try to change him. Accept the truth that he has told you. Believe him and make your decisions accordingly.

specialsubject Mon 11-Feb-13 17:42:20

nobody is being unreasonable (except the poster who says that retirement=doing nothing. That is not the case for anyone with a life)

Age gap doesn't matter. What does matter is that OP and boyfriend don't have the same goals. I don't think he really wants kids and neither of them have much idea of a partnership.

in short - train wreck just waiting for the buffers.

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 17:43:48

"I am trying to tame a bachelor here!!"

shock

You are a fool.

You think you'll beat all the other girlfriends by being the one he finally marries?

Wake up!

If he is going to set the timescale for everything, you already know why his other relationships failed - they got bored waiting for his lordship to do the things he promised but wouldn't be "pressured into".

You have time on your side now.

But he's already rubbing his hands with glee as he figures out that he can still retire early while his young wife covers the entire cost of raising the family he wants but doesn't want to pay for.

Narked Mon 11-Feb-13 17:45:52

So, one minute you're saying you'd want to work part time and the next you're saying you wouldn't want to be 'the home maker' - but 'I think my ideas are a bit old fashioned.'

Rightttttt.

<backs away from thread>

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 17:46:32

"except the poster who says that retirement=doing nothing. That is not the case for anyone with a life"

I wouldn't call a 40 year old commitmentphobe with a job he hates but won't leave because of the holidays and no plans except early retirement someone with a "life".

Sallyingforth Mon 11-Feb-13 17:54:09

OP having read your initial post I thought you had some chance of making this work if you were both keen to do so.
Having read your later posts and the extra information I no longer think so.

You need to move on and and find someone whose ambitions and outlook on life matches yours. Good luck with that!

LtEveDallas Mon 11-Feb-13 17:56:57

Lots of assumptions there AThing.

If the OP has a child in say 5 years, he will still be working full time until the child is 10, and presumably supplying the family 'pot' with his full time wage. OP wants to work PT so her reduced wage will most likely cover childcare and not much else - essentially OP will be 'living off' her DH.

At the age of 10 the child will still require care at home, which he can provide at no cost, whilst still putting his pension into the family 'pot' (just like the OPs reduced wage for the previous 10 years) whilst OP can go back to FT - essentially OP DH will be 'living off' OP.

Im not going to comment on the nature of their relationship as I think there are far more issues that need to be resolved first. But the issue of him retiring is not one of them.

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 18:03:22

Of course the issue of him retiring is a problem.

Parents of school age children cannot comfortably retire early in their 50s, fixing their income at a low level that will be gradually eaten away by inflation as the years go by.

She will end up funding his retirement as well as the vast bulk of the cost of reading their family.

LtEveDallas Mon 11-Feb-13 18:08:04

some parents can. My husband has, and I can retire now if I wanted, at the age of 40. If he has been planning this for a while he may well have been paying into a private pension - OP says his pension would easily provide for him if he was on his own, so it sounds substantial enough.

You say that 'she will be funding his retirement' well maybe, just as he will be funding her PT working.

Jinsei Mon 11-Feb-13 18:18:37

If he definitely wants kids, then he needs to know how he is going to pay for them, but the onus is on you OP to pay into the pot as much as he does. There is no more reason why he should subsidise you to work PT for a few years than you should subsidise his early retirement. Ultimately, it's about give and take, and compromise on both sides.

You do seem to have rather outdated notions of gender which your DP wouldn't appear to share.

Dahlen Mon 11-Feb-13 18:28:32

You need to talk this to death and either agree on a compromise or go your separate ways. Your natural starting points are at polar opposites.

Dahlen Mon 11-Feb-13 18:29:34

Which does kind of beg the question of how far apart you are in your other attitudes, values and life goals. What, apart from sexual attraction and presently 'enjoying each other's company', do you actually have in common?

Bearbehind Mon 11-Feb-13 18:41:50

OP, try reading your thread from the beginning and imagine you were not involved at all. If this were a friend of yours telling you all this, what would you tell her to do?

The warning signs:-

He won't commit to living with you
He has never lived with a woman despite having a 7 year relationship
You are trying to 'tame' him
He says he wants children but is showing no sign of changing his bachelor life style to accommodate this
He has told you he will continue with his plan to retire in 15 years even though you might have school age children and he hasn't consulted you on this
He has £80k now (still not clear if this is cash or equity) but in 15 years, with inflation, it's value will diminish
You think he will make you feel that you 'owe' it to him to support him in later years because he has money now ( although if he plans to use this money to fund his retirement he is not going to be putting into the 'relationship' now)
You have expectations whereby you want to be provided for not the other way round, which, right or wrong, need to be discussed

Would you tell your friend to run for the hills or tell her she's worryingly unnecessarily?

40 years old, no previous serious relationships, very definate retirement plans? This is not a man who wants a family. Run away OP, far away. Find somebody who is actually interested in building a family with you. Or you could waste 5 years (if you're lucky - could be 10 or 15 before you wise up) with this man.

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 18:54:09

"You say that 'she will be funding his retirement' well maybe, just as he will be funding her PT working."

Working part time for a few years doesn't even come close to costing as much as a retirement that could last for 40 years.

LtEveDallas Mon 11-Feb-13 19:11:52

OP will be retired herself before 40 years is up. He works full time now for another 15 years, then collects his pension. OP works for 20 years following his retirement, then collects her own pension. Hopefully OP also has had the foresight to plan for her future retirement fund, rather than just relying on the state.

Only difference really is that OP DH is also bringing 80k to the table.

Like I said, I think there are a lot more issues with this relationship, a lot more reasons that it is not necessarily a good idea. But if OP DH wants to retire at 55, has planned for it and it can be afforded, then it is not up to the OP to dismiss the idea solely because "I guess I have this old fashioned idea that the man should go provide for the family"

This is not a man who is looking forward to spending his life with you, and raising a family.

This man is looking forward to his retirement, having leisure time away from you, while you are working your arse off to support his leisure and your family.

Not a catch at all!

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 19:25:05

His plan isn't just that he retires early, takes a smaller pension for his entire retirement, and has an extra ten years to spend his lump sum.

Which is a risky enough proposition when you have dependant children.

His plan is for his 11 years younger girlfriend to work for another 20 years (no early retirement for her) to fund the household while he lives like an old man while he is middle aged.

This is not an agreed plan, a joint dream.

It is something he has told her is happening before he is willing to move in with her.

A teacher retiring at 55 will not be looking at a massive pension.

It should provide a comfortable retirement.

But it will not fund a growing family, a mortgage, or any of the things most parents want to provide for their children.

As Quint has pointed out, his plan is for himself.

He's looking to a younger girlfriend to fund the life he is planning to lead.

She would be crazy to go along with his plan.

It says everything about how he views her, and it's not pretty.

ImperialBlether Mon 11-Feb-13 19:26:43

Speaking as a 55 year old teacher...

Several of my friends who are a bit older have taken early retirement (at the ages of 58-59) and realise they have no money at all. They have husbands who work but are used to bringing home their own pay packet of at least the same amount. They are still working, just not in teaching. One has had a shock pay packet after working over Christmas at M&S. Minimum wage.

Personally I will be working (probably teaching) until 65. I won't get a state pension until 66. Your boyfriend needs to check out the state pension; a friend of mine who's about 30 won't get her state pension until she's about 70. That means he'll be retired for 15 years on his teaching pension.

If he retires at 55 his teaching pension will be greatly reduced. Is he planning to have paid off any mortgage by that time? Is he planning to save a great deal.

The thing that would REALLY put me off, though, at 29, is to go out with someone who hates his job and won't do anything about it. Someone who is only in the job because of the holidays. Who's never managed to commit to someone. Who thinks his wife will take care of him financially.

I wouldn't want to live with him. He sounds entitled and a whiner.

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 19:33:14

Yes, what Imperial said.

The things people say about early retirement on here sometimes leave me confused shock

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Mon 11-Feb-13 19:36:06

I think he has made his plan for him whereas if you plan marriage and children you need a new, joint plan which will involve compromises from both of you, and you need to make that plan before you move into together or very shortly afterwards.

You wont really be able to get much, in terms of a family home with mortgage term of only 15 years. Most mortgage terms are 25 years plus.

This means you would not be able to even buy a comfortable family home and raise your kids in.

Not only do you have to work for 12 years longer than him, he will have been retired for 27 years already by the time YOU retire. That is almost as much living as your entire LIFE now.

From your kids are 7-10 years old, you will be raising them on a single income, that is a luxury few can afford! Just like being a sahm is a luxury few can afford these days!

expatinscotland Mon 11-Feb-13 19:39:28

Why tether yourself to someone like this? Why not flesh out your own retirement, buy your own place, fund your own life without a leech like this?

When you are with someone who point-scores, plays tits-for-tat with money, throws out lines like, 'I funded you, now you fund me', or 'now it's your turn,' you're not a team, you're a business transaction.

You're 29, don't you think you deserve someone who sees people that way?

Fuck that for a game of soldiers! If this guy wanted kids with you, he'd already have gone for it. Cut your losses and get rid.

his whole life ambition is to carry on in a job he hates for another 15 years and then retire and sit on his fat hairy arse.

don't you want someone with more get up and go? is this really what you're happy to settle for?

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 11-Feb-13 19:44:35

If I retire at 55, my pension will be around £13,500.
Enough to live like a student, not enough to keep a family on.

Crocodilio Mon 11-Feb-13 19:58:05

I was going to post what BearBehind has already said.

His retirement plan is based on having 80k equity in his bachelor pad. If you buy a place together, for your family home, that 80k will be used up. Before retirement, you will together need to pay off the mortgage on your joint family home.

I hope he has a good pension in place!

Hesterton Mon 11-Feb-13 20:01:44

I think people in tough jobs dream of early retirement but when it comes to it, when you're at a stage when your family aren't that needy, you will often miss the dynamic structure and your role/status. My ex 'retired' ten years before his private pension would kick in, at 40, with my blessing after 20 years in a high pressure job with good rewards (paid off mortgage, shed loads into pension) and I took over the breadwinning but although he didn't miss his previous job, he was back working within months at something else.

I don't see why a person shouldn't have a dream of leaving a stressful job he doesn't enjoy but in this case, the financial commitments of still supporting a young family will make life a bit tough unless OP is earning a large-ish salary. In reality, he will probably end up taking on some paid work of some kind, even if it's not full-on teaching. I would worry that he might back out of the children part of the deal; they are what would be a barrier to his 'best-laid plans...'

I don't see why he is quite the villian he is being painted on here by some posters; he's being honest about his desires.

that is true hesterton.

as the saying goes, when someone tells you what they're like, LISTEN.

just sounds to me like you don't have the same long term view, foxy.

AThingInYourLife Mon 11-Feb-13 20:07:36

I don't think he's a villain, just a no hoper.

If you want to leave your job at 40, you do something else.

You are young, less than halfway through your working life.

You don't stick in a job you hate and start planning for early retirement.

Unless you have nothing going for you at all.

The life he's offering the OP is dreary and will be very hard on her.

Who needs to sign up to a 40 year old's plans for his his decline at 29?

Bearbehind Mon 11-Feb-13 20:10:41

I don't think he's a villain either. He just has very different priorities to the OP and she appears to think she can change him on far too many levels for the relationship to be feasible.

God it sounds more like a contract than a relationship! Where's the talk of love and commitment? The feeling that you are both so in love and right for each other that you can't bear to be apart? Because that's how committed, loving relationships usually go. First there is the falling in love part, then the realisation that this is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with and in so doing you make plans to move in together as soon as its feasible. Which it is now. Yes, you might view it as a bachelor pad but surely he has a double bed and spare wardrobe space?! I really don't understand all the dilly dallying

It sounds to me like he is reaching 40, panicking about how he hasn't reached the stages in his life that his peers have and looking to see if its doable with his current partner - you. But, sorry to break it to you - I don't think that you are The One. Otherwise you would be already living together. Sounds like you are Miss She'll Do.

sad

kalidanger Mon 11-Feb-13 20:39:15

Miss Has Good Earning Potential.

Poor OP. You didn't expect this, did you?

thegreylady Mon 11-Feb-13 20:45:14

My dh and I were both teachers and both retired in our early 50's.We did supply and exam marking and private tuition to supplement our pensions.Dc were between 14 and 19 when dh retired [our 2nd marriage] and grown up when i did it 10 years later.
Money has never been a problem and neither of us ever regretted it.Dh retired just a year after we married but it never occurred to me to 'mind'.He did all the shopping and cooking as well as the extra jobs I have mentioned.

INeedThatForkOff Mon 11-Feb-13 20:53:36

thegreylady, I've just nosed at your profile and see that you must have retired around 15 years ago. I don't really think your situation is comparable with today's economic climate, let alone that in 15 years' time. I too do exam marking, private tuition and moderation. I'd have to be lucky (ie with medium-term tuition arrangements) to take home 4k a year to supplement my poxy pension in my early 50s.

echt Mon 11-Feb-13 20:54:56

thegreylady, I'm betting the access to the teachers' pension was different when your DH retired. I'm one of the rapidly vanishing breed who can access mine at 60. Now it's 67. Who knows how the goal posts will have moved for teachers before the OP's boyfriend leaves a job he hates right now?

For reasons not related to his job, but to his obvious lack of commitment, the OP should find herself a man of her own age.

Dromedary Mon 11-Feb-13 21:02:32

If you are going to have children, why wait a few years? He'll be an older dad even if you start right now. He doesn't sound very committed to the idea of children, seems unrealistic about what being a 60 year old with teenage children is likely to be like.
Teachers used to expect to retire very early (at the public expense), but things are changing. It would worry me that he is looking forward to many years of rest time (with children at school) while you continue to work. A decent family income will be important to any children and to your retirement. And presumably when you finally retire you'll be expected to care for him in his old age.
To be honest, it all sounds uncommitted and pie in the sky.

Chunderella Mon 11-Feb-13 21:34:21

Where in the country are you living OP? I think that makes a big difference. If you're in a northern city and don't mind a poorer area, you might be able to buy a family home outright with the 80k. Which would make living on a relatively small pension and a part time wage much more doable. If you're in the south east or even just want a dearer area in a cheap city, it would probably be financially unmanageable.

Afritutu Mon 11-Feb-13 21:41:53

Hubby and I have a 12 year age gap and 2 young dc. This is our 'sort of' arrangement and I could!'t be happier with it. While the kids are young, I work part time and will probably do some free lance type work from home when they hit school age. He will retire in 10-15 years, and then I look forward to picking up a more exciting career in my late 40's onwards, and he will be at home ferrying the teenagers about. We will have paid off much of our mortgage by then, for me this is perfect.

foxyfi111 Mon 11-Feb-13 23:06:27

God this is hardcore!! Well I was kind of hoping his delay to moving in etc are just because he wanted to make sure I am right before leaping into it. I also had just finished a 6 year relationship before I met him and wasnt in a rush to immediately move in with someone new. I am now feeling the nesting urge and have mentioned this on several occassions, I think he is starting to give in a bit. I didnt mention it in my original post but obviously we love each other, but its not a perfect situation. I feel I need to be sure of where I need to make negotiations. I think from what I have read, TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub has posted the most useful comment and I think this is case of - that is his plan at the moment but as part of our relationship I think, having read these comments, I would be fair to negotiate it. To be fair I dont think he had thought that i would finance him particularly, just that that is what he would do if he was on his own and it probably hasnt occurred to him that its not possible in a family situation, which is alien to both of us. It is reassurring to hear that it has worked out for some people. I'm not 100% convinced that he hates his job as much as he says he does, as he does go to focus groups and extra lessons etc although he does get paid a bit more for them.

I think the point about the mortgage is a good one. We live in London. His money is coming from the flat which has increased in value since he bought it. He is selling for £300,000 probably and would look to use the money to deposit for a larger house maybe £400,000, but if I was to buy with him (in the future) we could afford £600,000. That should take some time to pay off...and theres no way that would just be me paying it off! I suppose I just dont want a lazy husband that I lose respect for, especially as I love my job.

For now I think I'll just focus on just general domestication as the aim. I.e hanging out more than two nights a week...and hopefully getting a date to move in together soon. I dont think he's being commitment shy to be an idiot, I think he's more scared because he's not done it before and it will be a big change to his life, for a man who doesnt deal well with change. Honestly he has made a lot of changes for me over the last year because he used to be really stuck in his ways...never taking me out or buying presents but he has made some improvements with that, and even though he's still not the perfect boyfriend I do have hope.

Im not a psychologist but I think probably a lot of his behaviour stems to when he was a child, his parents were very distant and cold to him and he spent a lot of time alone in the country without other kids around him. Its made him very self-sufficient and defensive and hard to get to know. But under all that he is a charming and sweet man.

nokidshere Mon 11-Feb-13 23:12:30

After being told we would never have children we planned to retire when DH was 50 (I would have been 42) and "potter around" lol

I got pregnant at 39 and again at 41 so all our plans were out of the window! We now have two boys 14 & 11 and dh is going to be 60 in a few months time - retirement is sooo not an option !!!!

We have no real control over the future.

ImperialBlether Mon 11-Feb-13 23:14:04

OP, why do you want to spend the rest of your life together? You are SO young! There are thousands of nice men out there who are your age and would love to have what you want too. He sounds like really, really hard work.

AThingInYourLife Tue 12-Feb-13 01:42:29

"For now I think I'll just focus on just general domestication as the aim. I.e hanging out more than two nights a week...and hopefully getting a date to move in together soon."

You are treating getting him to commit to you as a project.

Really, if a man is that into you, he won't need to be managed into agreeing to move in together.

My husband is a very self-sufficient man who is hard to get to know.

But once we got together he was only too happy to do things he hadn't wanted to do before. Like moving in together.

Relationships shouldn't be hard work.

Despite all the press insisting that women waste their lives working at them.

Tasmania Tue 12-Feb-13 01:55:00

YANBU - whoever on this post said otherwise don't understand that a decision like this should be made by both partners together. Not one dropping a bl**dy bombshell...

StuntGirl Tue 12-Feb-13 02:08:40

Why are you treating your relationship like some kind of pet project? "Tame him", "focus on general domestication". Do you have any idea what a commited and equal relationship looks like? I'll give you a clue - not this.

Morloth Tue 12-Feb-13 03:03:07

I think you are both in very different places.

The language you use is also really concerning. You can't 'train' or 'tame' anyone. This is just really really stupid and it will not end well.

Think about what you want from life, then see if he fits in there.

There is nothing wrong with him planning to retire at 55, you just need to have a think about whether that fits in with your plans for the future.

Really odd word choices IMO that are indicative of a very strange mindset.

piprabbit Tue 12-Feb-13 03:03:35

It doesn't sound as though the OP really knows what her DP's financial situation will be in retirement. She doesn't know what his pensions arrangements are.
Perhaps he has always planned to retire at 55 and has been saving for many years to achieve that goal? It wouldn't make him lazy at all - just organised and focussed on his objective.
Perhaps he feels a £400k house would be fine and has no ambition to fund a £600K house.
May be he doesn't really think he'll be settled down, perhaps he hopes to travel the world.

Who knows - but they do need to have a proper talk.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Tue 12-Feb-13 07:32:31

OP, when his place sells, will he immediately move into your rented place?

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 07:36:40

Goodness me Foxy, you really are making excuses for him. You posted because he told you that he wanted to retire at 55, despite you having plans to have children who would be of school age by then, and now you say it probably hasn't occurred to him that that isn't possible in a family situation.

You do sound like he is your 'project' and you are pleased with your progress on the little things like buying you presents but there is no way you can 'train' him to work out the bleedin obvious if he doesn't want to see it.

He hasn't got £80k either as, unless you can move out of London and release the equity, it is just paper money as all the other properties will have increased in line with his flat so he'll need it in order to buy something else, so that's not a retirement fund.

This isn't meant to be a really harsh post but this isn't how a good relationship should be. It doesn't seem to be anything more than 'dating' at the minute. He's happy with seeing you for 2 nights a week- that's not even close to committing to live with you. It sounds more to me like he tells you enough to make you hang in there thinking he'll change when in reality he has no intent of doing so and when he says things like he plans to retire at 55 he is dropping his guard and forgetting he has no intention of being in the position you want him to be. I do think he sounds like a pretty committed bachelor- no one has changed him before and it doesn't sound like you are going to either.

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 08:14:20

It really can't be normal to stay awake worrying that your currently 2-date-night-a-week boyfriend is going to retire in 15 years and you are going to resent him for being a lazy husband. Fair enough if you were married with kids and it was a likely situation but you are a scarily long way from that.

I would be much more concerned about him not wanting to move in with you, about you having to 'train' him to think of you or do anything nice and why he has never settled down before- they are the more pressing issues that would be keeping me awake.

I would bet that you shouldn't be losing sleep over this because you will never marry or have children with him so it won't be an issue.

AThingInYourLife Tue 12-Feb-13 08:26:22

At least as you only see him twice a week you have plenty if time to play the field and date other men you might like more.

I'm sure you aren't in an exclusive relationship with someone who wants to see you so rarely after two years of dating.

Adversecamber Tue 12-Feb-13 09:10:27

I am very worried by your comment he is starting to give in. People can have things pointed out to them and have some amazing epiphany but you should never try and change or cajole a partner being something they are not.

The figures for your future pot inc 600k mortgage don't look very good. I guarantee interest rates will rise. You need to consider terms of repayment as he is older, less deals etc due to a shorter term of repayment.

How secure is your job op and what kind of salary do you think you can hope to achieve?

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 12-Feb-13 09:12:49

I'm a bit stunned as to the discrepancy in viewpoints within the relationship.
He's on two dates a week and a bachelor lifestyle, she's on marriage, children and retirement concerns.

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 09:23:30

Athing' I think the OP probably is exclusive to her boyfriend but I very much doubt he is to her, what on earth does he do on the other 3 nights and at the weekend??

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 12-Feb-13 09:29:18

He probably suits himself,not necessarily with another partner.
Does teacher stuff like marking and planning, watching what he likes on the TV, eating like a bachelor, not having to interact intensely with people after having done it all day. Pottering along as he has done happily for the last 20 years or so.

FunnysInLaJardin Tue 12-Feb-13 09:30:51

I have to say it doesn't sound much like love to me. As others have said more like a project. I think you will find yourself forever coaxing and persuading if this is how it's all starting.

BTW he's not gay is he?

AnyFucker Tue 12-Feb-13 09:30:58

Good lord, men are not objects to be moulded into what you want

Find someone who is already on the same page as you, there is plenty of time

I am very concerned for you

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 09:33:18

You could be right nebulous, doesn't exactly sound conducive to suddenly deciding to settle down and have children though does it?

Bluegrass Tue 12-Feb-13 09:43:08

I thought the MN Party line was that:
SAHM's make a huge contribution to the family that has a tangible value;
money earned by their partners is not "his" but belongs to the family;and
They are most definitely not lazy arses being funded by their husbands.

Reading this thread I now seem to have learnt that:
Being a SAHP doesn't count for anything if the kids are teens;
Claiming to be a SAHP to teens is lazy and you should go out to work;
it is not sufficient to also contribute equity from your house and a regular (if reduced) income from a pension to the family pot, you are still sponging off your partner's money;
The fact that you are doing this after already having spent probably 3 decades in full time employment also counts for nothing as you are clearly lazy.

What an odd and inconsistent place MN can be sometimes!

"for a man who doesnt deal well with change"

You are playing a very silly and foolish game here, with peoples lives.

I would not be surprised if you come back here in a couple of years time because your older husband left because he could not cope with young babies, endless sleepless nights and crying, let alone living with a woman! And this was not what he had wanted at all, having been converted from a 40 year old bachelor with good retirement plans.

Please come back, there will always be heaps of support!

Bluegrass (and others bringing up the Ghost of Past Threads), have you not understood that MN is not a script churned out by robots, but by people who think and have experience, and that all the posters here are different, and the life situations are different?

Have you not understood that the problems with this OP goes far beyond just retirement, but how he sees the relationship?

You cannot try and do a gender reversal on every single bloody thread.

OP, I so wish I knew you in real life, so I could take you out for a drink and give you a metaphorical shake

Please listen to us old birds. You are wasting your time with this man.

I was you at 29, more or less. Older partner, he had issues, but I was determined to make it work, I had all kinds of strategies and tactics. I wish I could go back in time and kick my own ass, because years later now I know that a good relationship doesn't need all that work. You'll know it's the right guy when you don't have to train him, domesticate him, get him to improve, stay up at night worrying about the future, etc.

Why on earth are you putting so much work into this guy, when you live in freaking London and there are young single guys everywhere??? I know, you love him, but love is not enough.

You think you are training him but really, he has been training you -- getting you to have such low expectations of relationships that you are happy to stay with someone who is offering you so little.

I'm sorry to be harsh but you deserve so much better in life, and if you don't realise it soon you might lose the chance to get everything you really want.

LtEveDallas Tue 12-Feb-13 10:00:45

YY Bluegrass, but you forgot to add that anyone who retires early, in their 40s or 50s is a loser, has no life, is no catch, can't afford it and is sitting on the sofa doing fuck all except rubbing their hands in glee and living off their spouse.

Which is really rather rude.

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 10:13:55

bluegrass there isn't a one size fits all script for every situation.

The OP's partner doesn't seem to be planning to be a SAHD to teens because he doesn't seem to be planning to be a Dad at all. He is planning to retire at 55- end of. I'm not sure the OP is even on the same planet as him, let alone the same page.

Even if that wasn't the case, surely it is an unusual aspiration for both parents to work right through the early years with young children, then to become a SAHD to more independent teenagers.

dallas Retiring in your mid 50's is also fine if you and your partner both agree on how it will work and that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Bluegrass Tue 12-Feb-13 10:18:49

PureQuint - it is not a script, but there are certainly some truths which are held to be self evident and if anyone dares to question them it results in a full on bunfight (like questioning the worth of a SAHM). Then you read a thread like this which is full of posters denigrating the contribution that would be made by this guy once he steps out of full time work outside the home, and barely an eyebrow is raised.

Can you not smell burning rubber from such an abrupt u-turn? I think the OP was right in an earlier post, she has quite traditional ideas that include a man's only real worth being in his ability to contribute financially by working outside the home. Take that away and she is stumped. I think a lot of the replies are from people who think the same way. No wonder change is so slow.

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 10:21:52

dreaming, that is so true about him training her to have such low expectations of the relationship she'll settle for any scraps he offers.

It's very telling that the post the OP said was the most help was one which justified her boyfriends plan to retire as being his 'plan at the moment' but surely she should be able to see that if she is talking marriage and babies and surely after 2 years together his plans would have changed to reflect that if marriage and children were part of his future.

Wake up and smell the coffee and move on.

Bluegrass Tue 12-Feb-13 10:22:37

Bear - only unusual because the age gap is larger than most relationships. He will hit potential retirement age much earlier. His partner says she wants to keep working. In that situation becoming a SAHD who is also contributing a pension in addition to running the household and possibly picking up other bits of work sounds quite feasible (possibly even very sensible).

AmberSocks Tue 12-Feb-13 10:24:19

bluegrass i agree with you.

There is a huge advantage to a child to having a parent at home even when they are in secondry school.there will still be meals to prepare,clothes to wash,a house to be run,plus school holidays.

Dromedary Tue 12-Feb-13 10:25:58

He doesn't want to be married.
He doesn't want children.
He wants to be a bachelor with his current lifestyle (centred totally around himself with an an easygoing girlfriend he can see occasionally), and retiring early.
Why not let him get on with his life plan and stop trying to force a square peg into a round hole?

bigTillyMint Tue 12-Feb-13 10:27:47

Dromedary, that is exactly what I thoughtsmile

OHforDUCKScake Tue 12-Feb-13 10:32:40

This is very Sex in the City, Carrie-Big scenario.

I have to ask, if he was with a woman for 7 years who he didnt live with, and when you ask him he says he doesnt want to be pushed, do you not think the 7 year long girlfried had the exact same conversation with him before she gave up?

Please stop wasting your time. If he was 30 then maybe, but 40 years old? With someone 7 years and still couldnt commit?
You're hugely wasting your time.

They say love is blind.

OHforDUCKScake Tue 12-Feb-13 10:35:09

You only see each other twice a week?! It gets worse!

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 10:37:00

bluegrass have you read all of this thread- there's about as much chance of this guy becoming a SAHD as there is of him growing up. This isn't about the pros and cons of retiring or being SAHP, it's about one person who is looking way, way, way too far ahead of herself and worrying about a situation that will never arise.

LtEveDallas Tue 12-Feb-13 10:43:01

OP wants to change her boyfriend. Why do so many women do that? Instead of finding someone right for them, they find Mr Wrong and go about trying to turn him into Mr Right.

There is nothing wrong with this bloke or his own wants and desires - he's just not following the OPs script.

Slagging him off and denegrating his choices because they aren't what the OP wants is out of order. Why aren't people doing the same to OP? Why is what she wants Right and what he wants Wrong?

There is nothing wrong with the ops traditional values, and not much wrong with his, they are just not on the same page.

But this is not a question of the value of sahms, and sahds.

In this situation we have a 40 year old man who says "yes yes, there might be kids. But I have some equity, and I am going to use that to fund my retirement when I am 55, and yes I can be there with the kids.

They are dating and see each other twice a week.

He does not say "Yes, I want to commit to you, build a family with you and I will stay home with the kids and my 80k equity will be a good help for us".

If we were to do a role reversal it would the equivalent of her, not saying she wants to be a sahm, but that she will retire from full time work aged 55 regardless of what has happened meanwhile, so in fact she wont be a sahm when the kids are babies, and young, but when they are older. What about maternity leave?

In this situation op will be required to go through pregnancy and maternity leave, them both work full time pay through their noses around £600+ per month nursery fees (in London) and when the kids are leaving primary, he retires.

This is a man who thinks about NOW and 15 years ahead when he retires. And the reason he does this, is because he does not want to be a family man, the thought has not entered his mind.

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 12-Feb-13 10:51:54

I agree with you, LtEve.
She see's him as a fixer-upper, a project. That rarely ends well.

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 10:53:45

dallas I completely agree about his choices not being wrong. A few posts did slag off his choices at the start of the thread, based on the very slanted OP, as she didnt originally mention that they didn't even live together and made it sound like having children was a done deal and that he had ruled that even n this situation he was going to retire in 15 years.

As she has added more information it is clear they both want different things and it is her that is in the wrong by trying to change him.

Pandemoniaa Tue 12-Feb-13 10:58:19

I don't see a problem with the bloke planning to retire from teaching at 55 if he's built up the required number of years for his pension. It sounds like quite sensible planning, tbh. Admittedly, I have quite a few friends who are teachers and they have no intention of retiring from the job in order to take up being a geriatric. Instead, they'll carry on working but in a less pressurised role and when it suits them.

I do have a problem with this man's general attitude to commitment and the OP's naive assumption that she can "tame a bachelor". It's not going to happen on the basis of what we've been told up to now but in any case, you can't change people. So I fear that she could become another long term "partner" that he keeps stringing along for years to come.

FeistyLass Tue 12-Feb-13 11:10:03

bluegrass I haven't ever read a thread on MN that said one partner should decide to be a SAHP without consulting their partner, discussing how finances should work and deciding how childcare will be managed. I don't see the inconsistency.The OP's partner is presenting a fait accompli that makes her unhappy. However, as everyone has pointed out there are much bigger issues at play.

OP (if you are still reading) may I ask about your last relationship, the one you were in for six years, just before your current partner?

I'm just wondering if you had a similar situation, did you live with him? Was he not keen on commitment either? Or was he too keen?

It sounds like your boyfriend was initially a bit of a rebound and IME that sets up some unfortunate dynamics sometimes.

LtEveDallas Tue 12-Feb-13 11:32:48

Thank you Bear and Nebulous smile

ZenNudist Tue 12-Feb-13 15:23:05

OP you do realise that he's never going to change right? Surely at 29 you're not that naive? [thinks back to self at 29] hmmm perhaps you are. I feel really sorry for you. You sound so desperate to get on with the stuff of life, marriage, children, a life with a like minded companion, you've mistaken this man for something he isn't.

Forget you being resentful of him ( albeit a very real possibility when you squander a few more years on a commitment phobic bachelor), think about his resentment of you if you somehow manage to cajole him into family life, it's attendant stresses, financial pressures, lack of time to yourselves etc.

I thought your description of him as 'charming' and 'sweet' smacked of someone you don't really know. At 40 people come along with more baggage. You aren't going to understand him for a few more years yet, especially as he keeps you at arms length.

Walk away, if he really wants you he will come to you, but most likely given his history, he won't.

Its not your fault you got sidetracked with the wrong man. If you decide to ignore all the advice on here and continue trying to 'domesticate' him, you'll only have yourself to blame if you find yourself stuck in the wrong relationship or alone & not getting what you want out of life.

With the right person it doesn't have to be this hard. You deserve better. [hugs]

cory Tue 12-Feb-13 17:11:23

I certainly believe it is possible for an older man to be a good dad to young children.

I also believe it is possible for a retired man to make a good SAHP.

My FIL managed both and he was approaching 70 at the time.

But then I suspect he was a rather different man to the OPs boyfriend...

cantspel Tue 12-Feb-13 17:50:53

I think you have got to the age of 29 and are now looking towards starting your own family and he just happens to be the man you are with and so you will try to mold him into being what you want.

You say you want to buy a house with him for a round £600k yet he hasn't even committed to wanting to move in with you yet and only wants to see you twice a week. You say he will have £80k equity in his current flat which he plans on using to fund an early retirement so where is this £80K going either the home that you plan or his retirement fund. Do you have a large amount of savings as either way your mortgage will be pretty hefty.
Then you say you want a family with him, so high mortgage costs, childcare costs and a possible early retirement. Hardly a great life plan.

BTW a good man isn't measured by whether he buys you gifts and takes you out. But by what he brings into your life, his love support, understanding and commitment to your life together. The man could not have a pot to piss in but if he gave you all these things then your life will be all the richer.

MrsKoala Tue 12-Feb-13 18:28:22

I agree with LtEve. I don't see anything wrong with this guy really. I sounds as if he has been honest about what he wants and the OP is just choosing to ignore this and continue with her plans.

I was with a younger man who wasn't really bothered about children, he made vague noises about some time in the future and I read into that what I wanted. I arrogantly believed he would want kids etc because i wanted that. He never started the conversations, he was always very dismissive and kept saying 'in the future'. We married and after a year of marriage when I was 32 I suggested we start trying for dc. He then said he didn't want to start trying till he was 37 at least. That would have made me 42. It ended badly and we filed for divorce after being together for 11 years. On reflection he told me over and order again, but I blundered on, choosing not to listen. He is happy. Now going to music festivals and I have now got a ds with a new dh. It was a mess entirely of my own making tho.

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 18:36:58

I just read the last line of the OP (didn't notice what it actually said before) I think the reaction if she 'put her foot down' about his retirement plans would be for him to put his feet down.............. one after the other as he runs for his bachelor life sad

maddening Tue 12-Feb-13 20:39:45

The thing is his plan assumes that you are willing to support him financially.

If he can provide proof that he has a suffiecient plan to provide for this plan then fair enough.

Then calculate how much of today's income from your joint income (assuming you are living together as an equal partnership currently) and you have an equal amount out of the joint income to invest in your pension.

If the 2 amounts together are not affforded within the household income and budget then he can not afford his plan currently and both "pots" should decrease equally.

You have the right to provide equally for your retirements and to retire early means a lot of investment - but taking in to account your joint budget he has a maximum he can afford - if situations change eg incomes rise or fall you would adjust your contributions and retirement date accordingly.

So he ibu to have assumed and is something that requires discussion.

You both need to invest in your retirement - especially out of a joint income - events such as separation or loss of a spouse could leave you in a poor financial position.

LessMissAbs Tue 12-Feb-13 20:50:39

For now I think I'll just focus on just general domestication as the aim. I.e hanging out more than two nights a week...and hopefully getting a date to move in together soon. I dont think he's being commitment shy to be an idiot, I think he's more scared because he's not done it before and it will be a big change to his life, for a man who doesnt deal well with change

You would think it was a child or a shy and half-tamed animal you were talking about, not a 40 year old man.

I think you are in his thrall and probably not seeing the reality, and you will probably only see reality in several years time, once he has fecked off back to his bachelor lifestyle and occasional girlfriend who makes no demands. (whoever said that is very wise I think).

LessMissAbs Tue 12-Feb-13 21:01:35

I also can't see how your house buying figures add up. You say his flat is worth £300,000 and he will have 80k equity when he sells it. Presumably you are counting on his current mortgage being portable, for which you usually have to buy within 6 months again. Or would he start a new mortgage, which will probably come with a term of 20 or 25 years, based on his retiring at 65. Will he lie to the mortgage provider and tell them this is his aim?

To buy a £600,000 house on this basis, with 80k deposit between you, you will have to convince a mortgage company, in the present lending climate, to lend you £520,000. Based on the standard 2 1/2 times your salary, you will need to be earning £208,000 each, and be in secure jobs. Or you could be earning £100,000 and he could be earning £308,000...or vice versa...

I didn't know teachers earned that much, but perhaps you earn hundreds of thousands of pounds per year?

You will have to get a joint mortgage if buying a property together. Its not just a matter of saying his current flat is worth £300,000 and he will get a £300,000 mortgage just like that, with an 80k deposit, and you getting 3 or more times your salary on top of that. For joint mortgages, its usually 2 1/2 times the joint salaries. Even if it wern't you would need to be earning around £70,000 pa to fund that extra £200,000.

Anyway, once you have your £520,000 mortgage, you will have to pay it. I think this will cost about £3000 a month. Once he retires at 55, you will have 10 years of paying that on your own, and house prices and salaries might not rise as much as people used to think were a guarantee. You will also be saving (presumably) to send a child or children through university...

Bearbehind Tue 12-Feb-13 21:21:29

lessmissabs I agree with much of your post but your sums are a bit flawed. Lenders work on around 2 1/2 times your joint salary so their combined income needs to be about £208k, not each. Still high though wink

Chunderella Tue 12-Feb-13 21:26:08

Good points re the mortgage. I can see how the finances here could stack up in other circumstances, but not to buy a 600k house or even a 400k one unless you're very well paid OP.

So for example if you were living somewhere cheap with a house bought outright, you were part time and bringing home say £800 a month. Let's say he had the £13,500 annual pension someone mentioned upthread, that would bring in about 1k a month. Two DC is child benefit of £130 monthly. That would give you a monthly income of just under 2k after housing and with no childcare. Plenty of people live on much less than that and you could be comfortable enough. Council tax probably a low band if the house is cheap so no more than £100 a month, water £50 a month, gas and electric £150 a month, food £600 a month, phone TV etc another £100, maybe £250 for transport- that's a total of £1250, could be plenty less if you were careful, with £750 over, for a family of four. Hardly the high life but you'd not want for anything much. There'd always be the option of him doing some marking and tutoring if you needed a holiday fund.

However, the fact that something might be affordable if you buy an ex-council property in Newcastle doesn't mean the same lifestyle could be achieved in an area several times as expensive!

LessMissAbs Tue 12-Feb-13 21:26:19

Yes, mistake there. £208,000 is how much they'd need to be earning jointly to buy a £600,000 house with an 80k deposit. Both over £100,000 or one well over £100,000 and the other not far behind.

maddening Tue 12-Feb-13 21:32:16

Oh sorry - you're not in a fully committed relationship yet - let alone on the same income and expenditure spreadsheet.

While your finances are separate then he has every right to plan for his retirement within his income.

It would need discussion if you move in together as well as when you decide to ttc etc - life goes up and down so nothing is set in stone.

I would say not to worry about his current plans - it is something you would look at further ahead - you aren't there yet.

RafflesWay Tue 12-Feb-13 21:33:54

Hi foxy we have exactly that arrangement at home. Dh was a college lecturer and like your dp started to hate it. We paid off the mortgage and luckily had made some terrific investments in our 30's. Dh retired at 58 and I run my own small business from home - I am 5 years younger than he is. He takes care of all the meals and much of the daily cleaning, dd is at special needs boarding school so he attends all school meetings, hospital appointments etc with her and we are now in our 4th year and both love it. If financially you can afford it and if you feel you can do it without resenting him then it can work great so long as he pulls his weight domestically.

fridgepants Tue 12-Feb-13 22:02:21

Foxy, please stop treating your life like a Katherine Heigl movie.

Why are you dating a man who a) you feel you have to 'tame' which is frankly not a basis for a real adult relationship (I'm a year older than you are and I have been in this depressing position) b) only sees you a couple of times a week when what you clearly want is a more committed sort of relationship with someone c) clearly wants different things out of life?

Do you love him? Or do you want security - a partner, a chance to buy a home of your own, possibly a father?

foxyfi111 Tue 12-Feb-13 22:24:16

Well - with the sums...he earns ~£55,000 i earn £40,000 but that will probably go up at least £10,000 for me in a few years. He has been paying his current mortgage off for at least 5 years and the £80,000 is from the house making profit. We have about £10,000 each in savings. I dont know if we could afford a £600,000 house but it would be a fair family home.

He wants kids more than me at the moment. He goes on about it. But I dont think he wants the mess of kids or has any idea how it would impact on his life. Its probably the turning 40 thing

With the comments about my "taming" him and him being a project, yes its true to some extent. But in my last relationship it took 4 years to move in together, and again that was me having to persuade him. For most of my friends they have had to be the persuader about this, I dont think its uncommon. Men like freedom...

I dont know many people who just fell into the perfect relationship, the kind of couples that smuggly go "We are so on the same page, You just know when you meet The One" are the kind of people who get divorced 5 years later and come crawling back for a glass of rose and advice on being single. I am trying to be realistic about our issues, in doing so I am probably making things sound worse than they are

I think I am going to raise the issue of the future with him. And perhaps point out that early retirement and quiet Man Time and raising a family dont really mix. Its then up to him to decide what he wants

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Tue 12-Feb-13 22:26:23

I think it's a good idea to raise the question of the future with him.

sugarandspite Tue 12-Feb-13 22:31:23

Men like freedom...

Bullshit.

Only men who don't want to settle down with you want freedom. Sorry OP but you're being sold a donkey here

fridgepants Tue 12-Feb-13 22:33:37

Foxy, I'm moving in with my boyfriend after five years. Not because I had to persuade him - he's possibly more keen than I am about it - but because we both needed to get our own stuff together before we could make ourselves into a proper unit. I'm quite nervous about it because it's a really, really big step and I'm going to be making certain choices about what my future will and won't be by doing this as well as running the risk of it not working out. I would never ever never ever ever do this with someone who didn't want it.

I get the impression you have quite a traditional/stereotypical view of the roles of men and women. If that's your viewpoint, that's fine. But it shouldn't mean that you have to do all of the work in making things happen. Don't make your future a compromise.

It is a very good idea to have a proper talk with him. I think you need to live together first to see if you are suited. I think most marriages break up because people did not live together and get to know eachother properly first.

My husband and I are rarely on the same page, we meet now on then, sharing a paragraph or two. wink

We were just 21 when we met, married, gosh, cant remember, think it was in 1999. Yup. First child in 2002. I am now 41. We met in 1993, so been together 6 years before marriage and 9 years before we had the first child. I am not smug. Life is not perfect. But we are relatively happy. Our happyness or lack of happyness have not much to do with us as a couple as it has to do with our circumstances.

sugarandspite Tue 12-Feb-13 22:33:53

And also, why ever would you want someone who had to be persuaded to be with you? Wouldn't you rather someone who couldn't bear not to be with you?

Don't sell yourself short.

fridgepants Tue 12-Feb-13 22:34:42

NB I am the breadwinner by a considerable margin but that is way, way down the list of concerns.

Mumsyblouse Tue 12-Feb-13 22:40:56

I have found the opposite to be true, once the man is ready to settle down, it happens and not before. I can't say I see the dignity or the point in having to persuade someone to build a life with you, if they are not keen from the off-set, I think they are far more likely to stray/lack the staying power later on.

But- talking honestly to this man seems the way forward.

foxyfi111 Tue 12-Feb-13 23:00:29

Oh and we both have private pensions. Yes I know a good man isnt measured by how much they take you out and buy you presents, thats why I let that slide at the beginning.

And yes I think he will change, at least a bit. When I first met him we would just spend one or two quiet nights in together a week. He hardly contacted me and usually put seeing his friends before seeing me. Now its the other way round. We now usually spend a lot of the weekend together, had all of xmas together, and have a 2 week holiday booked. He is quitting smoking as I hate it and finally talking about seeing each other more in the week (I am often away with work so that doesnt help). Whoever says men dont change its not true, they do if they want the relationship enough. He seems happier as well for having made these changes.

Dont get me wrong - it was a lot easier with my last bf to ask him to commit to the relationship, although it still took us 4 years to live together (we were younger though). I think we are being careful to keep our own lives because we have both had long term relationships which have ended, and have seen how important that is. Also there is nothing worse than moving out again if it doesnt work so I can see why he is cautious. He says he believes that if you move in together you should get married fairly soon after (not entirely my belief as I think you should live together for a while first but perhaps that would be my turn to stall things.) I dont think you get a committed partner overnight and Im prepared to work at it because there are good things in this relationship which were missing from my previous one and I think they might be hard to find (patience, caring, intelligence, chemistry). Admittedly we might be missing a bit of respect (him of me), communication, and shared ambition.

foxyfi111 Tue 12-Feb-13 23:08:17

sugarandspite - yet to find that man! At least anyone who cant bear not to be with me every single day that I feel similarly about. Possibly I find it unattractive :-S Is that weird?!

fridgepants Tue 12-Feb-13 23:13:52

I don't think it's weird, but it reminds me a lot of me and my friends when we were younger - we thought drama and work were the signs of a good relationship. I'm particularly worried that he says he doesn's seem to have a lot of respect for you - that is very shaky ground on which to start a cohabitation.

foxyfi111 Tue 12-Feb-13 23:16:29

Mumsyblouse - how do men get "ready to settle down"? Is it possible some never do?! He thinks he will be ready in a year, am I being an idiot to wait for his terms? Or should I wait because if I don't his heart wont really be in it?

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Tue 12-Feb-13 23:34:06

Do you know what "ready in a year" means to him? Ready to move in? To get married? To TTC?

AnyFucker Tue 12-Feb-13 23:41:16

Admittedly we might be missing a bit of respect (him of me), communication, and shared ambition.

Those things are in my Top Five essentials in a long term partner and potential father of my children

Oh deary me

AThingInYourLife Tue 12-Feb-13 23:47:01

"Admittedly we might be missing a bit of respect (him of me)"

You mention that like it is a tiny drawback rather than an enormous flashing sign telling you the relationship isn't a healthy one.

You can't compromise on respect without compromising yourself.

Also, IME men tend to get ready to settle down almost the instant they meet a woman they want to settle down with.

They are socialised to get what they want in their own terms, so in general are far less likely to agonise for years about whether a relationship can be made to work.

StuntGirl Tue 12-Feb-13 23:50:52

"Men" don't need to be tempted away from their precious freedom to be tied down with a little wifey. People choose to move in together because they want to share their lives together. I don't recall having to lasso my partner into our living arrangements, we came together willingly.

I think there are many issues and red flags in this relationship which say it isn't right for either of you. But I suspect you'll plough on regardless.

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 00:02:52

OP isn't listening to a damn thing sad

LessMissAbs Wed 13-Feb-13 00:17:25

I think OP likes a "project man".

Good luck OP, probably a better bet doing this with a younger specimen, but you can only live and learn.

Oh sweetheart

If you have 'yet to find that man' then keep looking

Don't settle. Don't persuade, don't tame, don't put up with less than you deserve.

How can you know a better man isn't out there? It sounds like you have spent the last eight years with two men who had to be pushed into things. Of course you're not going to find anything better if you're not looking.

It took me years and years to find the right guy. But so what? In the end, I did find him. You are still so young, too young to give up and settle for someone who, I'm sorry, doesn't respect you??? Why on earth would you put up with this?

If he is putting off moving in with you, he is just not that into you. Sorry. You only see each-other twice a week, and a couple of holidays and he does not want to change that. He thinks he will be ready in a year?
I dont mean to sound harsh but if he was really in love with you, and keen to spend his life with you, he would not hedge his bets like this and keep you on the hook with promises of a future together while still remaining uncommitted.

But I must say, dreamily talking about your future together and make plans for how committed you will be at some point in future, is a very good way of hiding cracks in a relationship, and bond, while you hide how little you have in common and how little you otherwise talk about.... What else do you have in common?

To be honest, I would not waste my fertile years where I could have found a real relationship, on a 40 year old commitment-phobe who has never lived with a woman and does not seem keen to do so any time soon. Not if I could feel my biological clock ticking.

'we might be missing a bit of respect (him of me), communication, and shared ambition'

ouch.

these are the most important things!

but you're determined to keep on. doesn't seem to be anything anyone can say...

Well, some women cant be helped.

BrittaPerry Wed 13-Feb-13 08:34:48

My mum has been a MHnurse all her life, and is allowed to start her work pension (complete with lump sum) at 55. She is counting down the days - restraining people, being punched and scratched and dealng with incident reviews, staffing, budgets etc is literally killing her. Her doctor keeps telling her to quit now and she is only 51.

Adversecamber Wed 13-Feb-13 08:59:21

So the last BF had to be persuaded and it didn't work out, really think about what you said. Some people don't want to settle down , some do regardless of gender.

There is no way this relationship will work as it currently stands. You would also be over stretching yourself with a mortgage that size.

2rebecca Wed 13-Feb-13 09:05:19

Both my husbands were as keen to move in together and get married as I was. I think if you want kids there comes a time when you either get on with getting married and being a proper couple or split up.
Now I'm in my 40s I suspect if I end up single again I wouldn't want to move in with a bloke and get married again. I also wouldn't want anyone else telling me when to retire, but then I wouldn't plan to retire when I still had kids at school or college.
This older man who isn't that into you thing seems to have alot of disadvantages.

A lot of women who get with commitment phobic men are actually scared of commitment themselves and I wonder if you might be one of them OP.

By spending all this time focussing on getting him to commit you can happily ignore your own issues. I would suggest you read both these books. I suspect you'll recognise him from the first and both of you from the second:

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0871319993/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0440506255/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1360746867&sr=8-2&pi=SL75

NutellaNutter Wed 13-Feb-13 09:28:05

I think the OP is sadly a lost cause.

Bearbehind Wed 13-Feb-13 10:04:59

Totally agree with anyfucker and claudedebussy- 'we might be missing a bit of respect (him of me), communication, and shared ambition' seems to sum up your acceptance of this ill-balanced relationship.

These are not things you can manage with out in a relationship. So you've trained him to buy to things and take you out but not respect you or communicate with you. Can't you see that your priorities are screwy.

Your example of smug couples who break up after a few years isn't the best example either. You said it took you 4 years to persuade your last boyfriend to move in yet it was only a 6 year relationship, so it doesn't seem that hanging around always works either.

On the subject if the house, I'm sure a £600k house is a 'fair family home', I'm sure we'd all love to live in a £600k house but on a joint income of £95k with a deposit of £80k, you can't afford it. Your £20k savings will disappear in stamp duty and fees, in fact it will probably be more than that as the stamp duty alone would be £18k.

Have you really thought about anything in this relationship? Is all this some kind of fairy tale dream where you look at your goal and don't see, or more likely dont want to see, any of the very real obstacles in your way.

Bearbehind: your final paragraph has summed up why I think the OP has commitment issues as well as her DP. The whole relationship seems more like a fantasy than real life.

MrsKoala Wed 13-Feb-13 10:34:03

I don't think anything anyone says it going to sink in. You are going to learn the hard way I fear.

I don't know where to begin with your posts but what I will say is I don't understand your infantilisation of men, this Hollywood perpetuated idea that you and your friends seem to have that men are some wild, free spirits, which need some fun sucking, mother knows best, type training, it'll be better for them in the long run etc. The men also seem to be buying into it too, giving them permission to behave as if they are such a catch that a woman needs to jump thru hoops to get them. Why don't you ALL try treating each other with a bit more adult respect?

raspberryroop Wed 13-Feb-13 10:55:38

As above really - I just despair at 29 you sound like a 50's agony aunt

Bearbehind Wed 13-Feb-13 12:57:24

Foxy in your OP you said you were hoping that some people with more experience than you could advise you.

They have- and not one person, who has read all your posts, sees your relationship in the same way you do.

Does that not show you that you boyfriend probably doesn't see it the way you do either?

All your talk of £600k houses, children and early retirements are pie in the sky.

The reality is that a £3k a month mortgage plus about £1k a month child care, per child, before all other living expenses and in London, is not even close to being within your grasp on your salaries, after pension contributions, even if you were both 100% committed to it.

I have a friend who has spent 5 years with a man who won't commit to her and now she is getting to an age where TTC may be difficult. (thats why this thread struck a chord with me) He just doesn't want to change his life. He's not a bad person, they just want different things. A few people tried telling her years ago but she thought she knew him well enough to know better and she wasn't as deluded about her relationship as you appear to be.

Do you want this to be like your last relationship, where in 4 years from now you split up and are back at square 1 after convincing him that living together was the next step even against his better judgement?

No one knows what will happen in the future but a look at what is happening in the present is a good indicator.

Take your rose coloured glasses off, look at the reality of your situation- the actual facts- not what you want things to look like, and decide if this relationship is going to give you want you want before you waste any more time on it.

XiCi Wed 13-Feb-13 12:57:56

You are trying to co-erce someone into living with you and wanting to spend time with you, and you think this is normal.

It most definately isn't.

Looks like you're going to find out the hard way

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 13-Feb-13 13:07:48

I would not want to marry someone who I had to tempt, and catch and persuade and change until they wanted to.

DH decided he wanted to marry me the day he met me. A week later he told me that.

When you meet the right person, a relationship is very very easy, at least until you bring children into the equation - but that is more to do with lack of sleep than anything else.

It is not normal to have to approach things in the way that you are.

Be careful, OP, that you do not end up on your own again in a few years time, having wasted the best years of your fertility on this man.

When you move in together, and it is his house - will you be helping to pay the mortgage? And what when you split - will you take some equity with you, or will he be left with a nice increase on his £80k to help him on his way to his retirement dream.

flowery Wed 13-Feb-13 13:16:03

"Well I was kind of hoping his delay to moving in etc are just because he wanted to make sure I am right before leaping into it."

If he's not sure you are right after two years that means you're not, surely? Moving in after two months is leaping in. Two years isn't leaping into anything, yet he's still not ready?

Time to move on.

OP, I think you need to listen to the warning signs the MNetters are flashing up at you.

I'm 30, so not much older than you. I got married last year, having been with (now) DH for nearly 7 years. A relationship shouldn't be this much work!

If you know you're ready to move in/have kids/whatever it is, then you know. If he doesn't, then he doesn't. You can't put a timescale on being ready. It sounds like he is stringing you along a bit as he likes his girlfriend and he likes his alone time. This would be fine if he weren't letting you hang by saying he might be ready in a year or so!

Cut him loose OP. He is not ready to commit, you are. You will spend the best years of your life trying to change him. Find someone with some common ground.

(And PS - I think the age thing is a HUGE red herring. If you are right for one another, you are right no matter the age difference. I don't think you are right for one another. Sorry.)

Bearbehind Wed 13-Feb-13 14:22:15

Just plugged my brain back in- stamp duty on a £600k house would be £24k not £18k blush

greenfolder Wed 13-Feb-13 14:44:50

sounds like you are not after the same things at all.

early retirement is prob not an option-unless he plans to put in sufficient years to get a decent pay out on a final salary scheme, leave and still work in some capacity.
by way of comparison; me and dp been together 20 years, are 45. we have £200k in equity, aim to pay off mortgage in 4 years. earn similar to you. i have about 20 years worth of final salary pension to date- now no longer in scheme. have £75k in savings(from inheritance). we have 3 dds- 18, 15 and 5. we cannot see how we could possibly retire before about 63. and this includes us saving substantially during our 50s. we wont get any state pension until 66.
we are both on same page- all our spare cash goes on the mortgage.
you dont need to commit to the detail, but you both need the same kind of life plan- ages are a red herring.

Pandemoniaa Wed 13-Feb-13 16:46:56

But in my last relationship it took 4 years to move in together, and again that was me having to persuade him. For most of my friends they have had to be the persuader about this, I dont think its uncommon. Men like freedom...

If you have to spend 4 years persuading someone to live with you it suggests that actually, far from being committed to the idea, they eventually lost the will to disagree. And no, it isn't common to have to persuade men to live with you. If you are in the right relationship, the decision is mutual.

Agree with Pandemoniaa. It is not common at all. It is a sign that the relationship is doomed!

Exactly what Flowery said at 13:16 today. If he is still making his mind up after 2 fecking years about whether he wants to move in together then he simply DOESN'T want to. That's all there is too it. Please listen to us older, wiser ones in long-term, committed, loving relationships. We are not "smug" as you put it, don't get us mixed up with those people you know who blether on about hearts and flowers and just "know" their bf is the one and rush in and get married within 2 years.

I am talking about those of us on here who "knew" very quickly that they wanted to spend the rest of their life together but who then made sensible, cautious, realistic plans to commit in a gradual (but not long and drawn-out) way. I knew within a month that my bf was The One and vice versa. A year later he asked me to marry him. 6 months after that we moved in together and 2 years after that we got married. First child 3 years later. 16 years after we first got together we are still married, had our ups and downs like all couples but we are still happy. Not one of your "smug" examples who get divorced 5 yrs later then!

My dh had a girlfriend who wanted to move in together. But he didn't want to even though she kept trying to peruade him. After they split up he met me and after we'd got engaged then all talk of moving in together was natural, in fact it was his idea. Because he WANTED to. He says that looking back with hindsight he knew that what he had with his previous girlfriend wasn't real love which explained not wanting to move in with her but he just didn't know it at the time.

There are huge warning signs in the things you are posting. Huge. You are young enough to get out and find real love with someone for whom it doesn't take 2 years to decide you'll do enough for him to let you move in. Like others have said, your relationship just seems like such hard work. Real loving relationships with mr Right are effortless. I really wish you could see that. There is just such an element of coldness on both sides with how you are approaching everything. Very sad.

Just a question. I know you're getting the full hardcore mn o

......mn opinion thrown at you, but what do your friends and family think of it all?

Pandemoniaa Wed 13-Feb-13 17:08:19

Agree with everything CurlyhairedAssassin has said.

DP and I did not get together until we were both in our 40s and divorced with children. We weren't smug or hearts and flowery but we knew, within a few weeks, that we wanted our relationship to be permanent. We didn't live together for nearly 3 years though but not because either of us needed persuading that living together was what we wanted to do. It was just that the circumstances that pertained right then made it sensible, for all sorts of valid reasons, to wait. Had either of us spent that time attempting to capture the other one then the relationship would have been doomed.

Please consider the very sensible things people have said on this thread. Men are not projects nor wild animals that need to be pinned down against their will. Also, anyone who offers up vague timescales like "perhaps in a year's time" is almost certainly avoiding the issue in the hopes that it will go away.

FunnysInLaJardin Wed 13-Feb-13 17:15:43

4 years? Blimey when DH and I met we moved in almost straightaway. Had our first house together after 5 months.

MrsHuxtable Wed 13-Feb-13 17:29:17

Op, despite all the great advice on here you still seem to be blind to the realities of your relationship. Why are you trying so hard to cling on to a man who clearly doesn't love you? Are you perhaps the daughter of divorced parents with a father who was never there for you? This really sounds like you have an unhealthy relationship pattern with no good rolemodels to compare yourself to.

MrsHuxtable Wed 13-Feb-13 17:32:20

If you do have a loving father who is in the picture, what does he as a man say about you relationship? My dad has four daughters and it's amazing how spot on his instincts have been about his childrens partners.

JessieMcJessie Wed 13-Feb-13 17:34:56

Foxy, some really wise advice on here. I know from posts of my own that it's common for any thread about mismatched perceptions of moving forward in a relationship to end up with the OP being advised to stop kidding herself and move on. It can get frustrating because it's hard to convey the detail of the relationship in a forum, and then the well-meaning advisers get frustrated because you aren't agreeing with their advice and leaving the bastard!

But I have to say that reading your posts I do worry that it is not going to turn out for you like you hope.You are furnishing the family home in your head, after 2 years he hasn't really got to the point of wanting to see you more than twice a week.... I'll get flamed for this, but get yourself a copy of "He's just not that into you" and see if anything strikes a chord. I have been in a similar position to you, did notice the warning signs, he eventually came clean that he didn't see a long term future for us. It was hard, but when I met my now DP I was amazed just how easy and natural a relationship that is "right"can feel.

I also think there are massive alarm bells re your respective careers. He supposedly hates his job so his solution is....plan to retire at 55. He's only 40 for Christ's sake, nobody's forcing him to stay in the job, he should be thinking of ways to make it better or find a new one or even a new career. He sounds wet and lazy. Which is perfectly acceptable for a single man to be. But do you really want someone with a defeatist attitude like that as your husband and father of your children?

You, on the other hand, love your job, which is great to hear. So as time goes by, he gets more and more miserable in his but thinks you can't empathise and starts to get jealous of your work-happiness, or you just get fed up with his whining because you know yourself that having a job you like is not impossible. And you stop feeling you can talk about work because it will make him uncomfortable. Doesn't sound like a recipe for a happy home, does it?

You're only 29. If he's good in bed (men about that age who have been about a bit often are grin), enjoy that for a bit longer but recognise that you can't turn this into something it's not and plan to be back on the market by the time you hit 30.

MrsHuxtable Wed 13-Feb-13 17:35:54

Sorry to repeat myself but your posts scream "Dad, please love me!". My best guess if that that's where your issues stem from. I

JessieMcJessie Wed 13-Feb-13 18:05:32

That should read, when I talked about being in a similar position, "did NOT notice the warning signs"- I am trying to empathise, not come across as smug!

LisaMed Wed 13-Feb-13 18:28:04

We decided to get married after dating twelve days. Lived together for three years, married 23 years this year. Just sayin

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 18:32:53

I very much doubt if this bloke is much cop in the sack. Far too self centred, flat, unambitious and introspective. Just my opinion, of course.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Wed 13-Feb-13 18:41:59

I don't know AF, I've had some pretty hot sex with unambitious men in the past. Never had any intention of marrying them though grin

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 18:48:26

takes all sorts, Ali smile

my experience is rather different...

the worst shag I ever had was with a bloke like this

once was all it took

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 18:50:06

"ambitious" is not necessarily go-getting career stuff

somebody with such a low zest for life probably doesn't have much spark in the sack

IMO

Well the OP must see SOMETHING in him. I really wish we could see what by the details she has given us. "Charming" and "sweet" wouldn't make up for the dithering about moving in together, the pie-in-the-sky retirement plans, the lack of joint discussion, the having to be reminded that the odd present or night out is what usually happens in relationships, the lack of wanting to see the OP more than 2 nights a week. Blimey, when its all written down like that, Foxyfi, it is SCREAMING out at you that this relationship isn't like everyone else's, don't you think? There is something so wrong here.

QueenofPlaids Wed 13-Feb-13 19:25:49

OP I'm not sure you and your boyfriend are reading the same book never mind on the same page.

You're looking into the future with someone who appears not to look much further forward than next Tuesday. Your idea of a £600k house is not remotely feasible on your current income. I don't even have kids and I know they are expensive.

Has he ever actually said he loves you and wants to build a life with you?

Surely at this stage if you we 'the one' you'd be desperate to spend as much free time together as possible?

Your boyfriend's plans aren't wrong, but I would say he's stringing you along / placating you when you've made it very clear you want more. He seems fond enough of you to make vague promises so you stick around, but that's a world away from a full scale commitment. Sorry if that sounds harsh - it's just the way I read it.

Loopyhasanotherbean Wed 13-Feb-13 20:48:31

Whilst I am not going to judge a man I don't know I wanted to offer my experience. I had a whirlwind romance, the whole meeting someone at 20, knowing he was the one, no doubts, moved in within a couple of months, engaged within a year and married within another 7 months. We ended up divorced. When I was 30 I met a bloke, 29, he was renting with others, about 80 miles from me, never had a girlfriend (yes, no experience at all....) so never lived with one either etc. Not a penny to his name, although was holding down a fairly ok job with salary similar to OP. He didn't see himself leaving the very large city he was living in, didn't see himself having children till his 40's if at all, get the picture? Well after 18 months and a bit of persuasion he moved 80 miles from that city, to live with me in my house. Prior to this i had suggested we split up if he didnt want the same sort of future as me as i wasnt willing to waste time in a relationship that had no future, having done that in my marriage and in a subsequent 2 year relationship. i knew i wanted children and if he didnt feeel the same then i wantedt to move on to find someone who did want the same things before I was too old. Well after another 12 months of living together, he decided he was ready to try for children and 3 years and a week later, he is a 35 year old dad of 2, and we will have been together 6 years this summer. So there are some men who need a nudge in the right direction, who can be all you want, but for whatever reason are a bit slow in getting going in these matters ;). My DP is just one of those people who never gets round to doing anything without a nudge, and its taken a few years to realise it. I'm still waiting for him to propose, but I'm adamant I'm not asking him, I nudged re moving in, nudged re children, and that's up to him to do off his own back....I have come to realise that what we have together and with our children is more important and worth more than a party and a piece of paper, I had both with my ex hubby and it didn't do us any good and it didn't last and I know which relationship I'd rather be in and I'd not swop it for anything, even though I would like to be his wife...

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 21:00:26

loopy..that is really sad

I know you are strangley happy with your lot, but if I felt I had to push someone every step of the way, I would have given up long ago

and saved my self respect in the process

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 21:02:13

loopy, I really hope no other woman gives your partner a little "push" because you are on massively dodgy ground here

if a man such as this requires a strong woman to make him do the right thing...I fear for your future

because you are always going to have to micro manage his behaviour

grim, beyond grim

Bearbehind Wed 13-Feb-13 21:40:43

anyfucker, that's what I thought when I read loopys post. You shouldn't have to push and nudge at a relationship like that. If a man can't or doesn't want to think or himself I'd rather not bother with him

That's a bit harsh on Loopy, Anyfucker. It really sounds very different from the OP's situation. 18 months and he had moved cities to be with her after leaving a shared flat. Whereas the OP is still waiting for her boyfriend to meet up more than twice a week! There are no real plans to move in together from the sound of it. Just talk. At least Loopy's partner did move on to the next stage each time she suggested it. Maybe he was just lagging a bit behind her.

But I just feel that the OP 's boyfriend is dragging his heels a little bit too far. Speaks volumes.

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 22:14:05

it's not harsh on Loopy, it's harsh on her apathetic and lazy partner

Wow, you can tell Loopy 's partner is apathetic and lazy by that one post?

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 22:21:43

In the context of this thread, I would describe his behaviour as so, yes

Loopyhasanotherbean Wed 13-Feb-13 22:29:34

For what it's worth he is far from lazy. He does a 2 hour commute to work and back again then is happy to cook or do a few jobs around the house if I've had a bad day with the children, or do a food shop for us. He is a very loving partner and a brilliant father. He just had no relationship experience when we met and so didn't want to rush things at first beyond a pace he was comfortable with. Given I was his first girlfriend I respected him for his honesty over his feelings and after a nudge (not constant nagging as some seem to have interpreted) he moved in with me after 18 months, I owned, he rented, so made sense. I had been married, and I had had 2 other significant relationships in my life, and I had lived with one of these as well. All experiences he hadn't had.

Morloth Wed 13-Feb-13 22:33:17

This will not end well.

Just for fucks sake don't bring kids into this mess.

You may enjoy the drama, but I can guarantee they won't.

Bloody hell.

AnyFucker Wed 13-Feb-13 22:33:33

Loopy, how long will it take you to persuade him to marry you ?

It's what you want

he's a lovely, lovely man, right ?

I am sure that is the case...so why are you wistfully wanting something you haven't got, and he could easily provide ?

foxyfi111 Wed 13-Feb-13 23:06:50

Thank you loopy, I'm glad it's not just me. I hadn't really planned having to defend my relationship so much when I first wrote this post! Just wanted general advice on the early retirement thing really! Yes he's great in bed thanks, he tells me he loves me and wants a future with me. There are some people who say don't wait until its 100% right to move in, wait for him to be ready, and some who say if he's not ready immediately then move on. We can't move in together even if we wanted to as I am in a flatshare, he is in a small one bed. My parents are happily married thanks. Im not sure what my dad thinks of him, i think he doesnt like his lack of ambition but i dont think he has thought any of my bfs were good enough really. It took 4 years to live with the last guy as I was doing a phd in one city and he lived in a different city, then we both moved to london together, it wasn't just a decision about moving in together. I hear what u are saying but I don't want to give up over some issues if we can work on them, I think a lot of people look for perfection and never find it. Lucky you the people who are 100% happy with their relationships, I did feel the same way about my last one until we lived together and it was obvious it was not going to work. I think I have become a bit cynical now.

What must happen for him to "be ready"?

I am afraid I am in the "if he does not know that you are the right one two years down the line it is because you arent" camp.

MsVestibule Wed 13-Feb-13 23:29:35

Lucky you the people who are 100% happy with their relationships I don't think many of us think our relationships are perfect (if that is what you meant), but I think the people who have posted here haven't had to drag their partner into making a commitment.

And I don't think Loopy's situation is the same as yours. She told her DP that she wasn't happy with the way the relationship was going and rather than lose her, he moved to be with her. Would your boyfriend do the same?

And as for becoming a bit cynical now, that's a bit sad. If you're feeling like that, doesn't that tell you that he's not right for you? You shouldn't feel cynical about love and relationships when you think you're with the man you're planning to spend the rest of your life with. I don't know why you're trying to change a man who isn't desperate to be with you, when you could find somebody who would consider himself lucky that you wanted to be with him.

I've been in dead end relationships (one of them was for 4 years - what a waste of my early twenties) and it's only since I've had boyfriends who actually considered themselves lucky to have me in their lives, and actively wanted commitment, that I wonder why I stuck with them.

Morloth Thu 14-Feb-13 00:05:22

If you were cynical you wouldn't be trying to change anyone.

You don't have to defend your relationship, people are responding to what you have written, we have no background, no idea of personalities.

But set out in black and white, what you have written looks like a slow motion train wreck.

You can't change people, you can't tame them, you can't train them, it just doesn't work. DH hasn't changed much over the last 20 years, sure the outside has changed and we are older and wiser, but the fundamentals of who we are are the same.

Find a grown up to marry and have kids with.

Think about the words you are using to describe your relationship to people who have no investment in either of you.

AThingInYourLife Thu 14-Feb-13 07:08:48

"We can't move in together even if we wanted to as I am in a flatshare, he is in a small one bed."

confused

"I hear what u are saying but I don't want to give up over some issues if we can work on them"

You work on issues when you have a marriage, children, shared property, a shared life to hold you together.

You don' stay and work on problems with a casual boyfriend you date a couple if times a week.

And even if you have every reason to stay together, a lack of respect is not something that can be fixed. It is a fatal flaw.

There can be no love without respect.

But sure, waste the best years of your life with a man who doesn't love you (talk is cheap) and has no plans for his life other than retirement (unimaginably unsexy).

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 14-Feb-13 07:21:15

Jesus fucking wept.

Go on then OP, wreck your life. Don't listen to any of the collective wisdom here, will you?

Happy Valentines - doing anything nice? Has he planned something lovely?

As I said above OP, I think you are just as commitment phobic as he is. There is no other explanation for your behaviour.

Most women seem to have some sort of self preservation.

The thing is OP, you say you are cynical, but that implies a certain measure of honesty, and I don't think you are really being brutally honest with yourself.

You say you can't move in together even if you wanted to because of your flat arrangements -- sorry but that's bollocks. If he came to you tomorrow and said please move in with me, I'm sure these would cease to be problems. Plenty of couples share studios, even bedrooms in a flatshare.

You are not living together because right now he doesn't even want to see you more than twice a week. After two years! This is why people are asking you to wake up. Loopy's situation is not the same at all.

Excuse the pop psychology but: from my own experience, and some friends, I think sometimes these kinds of relationships are about staying in control. It's no accident they tend to come after brusing and unforeseen heartbreaks. They may not be particularly good -- there are 'issues', maybe a lack of respect, etc. -- but these are things you are working on, therefore it gives you a sense of being somewhat in control. Things aren't all good but you know what the problems are and you're doing something about them, which seems better after being through a relationship where you thought everything was great and then the bottom dropped out from under you.

I know you must think we're all bitches but really it's just that we're older, we've been there and bought the t shirt, we just don't want to see you waste years of your life.

Sallyingforth Thu 14-Feb-13 08:51:50

As alibaba asked. Is he spending a romantic valentines night with you, or with his girlfriend?

Bearbehind Thu 14-Feb-13 08:52:54

Jeez foxy, one person posts about a similar siutation to yours and that is the only post you take any notice of.

Did you really gain hope from loopys post? In your situation I wouldn't have. I thought it was sad that after all her 'nudging' the relationship still wasn't where she wanted it to be and she's clearly not happy about it.

She pushed for them to move in together, then she pushed for them to have children and as soon as she purposefully stopped pushing and waited for her partner to do something ie propose.....nothing happened.

You started this thread because you were worried that you might resent your boyfriend in 15 years if he retires- don't you think you might resent him long before that if you are the only one making any effort to move your relationship along?

Don't you see that the fact you feel you have to defend your relationship is a warning sign in itself? People are only commenting based on what you have written about it (with the exception of the bizarre Daddy love post!).

TBH I am having trouble calling it a 'relationship' or calling him your 'partner' as after 2 years, you still only see him 2 nights a week ffs.

I don't know anyone who would say they are 100% happy with their relationship but people weigh up all the factors and take it from there. Based on the things you have said about your situation, it is a recipe for disaster.

Your £600k house and chlidren with him is nothing but a pipe dream. Aside from the fact that on your salaries it is a financial impossibility, it will never become a reality because HE DOESN'T WANT TO LIVE WITH YOU.

This crap about being ready in a year is nothing more than stalling tactics to keep you where he wants you. He is selling his flat which, if he wanted to live with you, would be the perfect opportunty to chose to get a place together, even if its only rented initially, when it's sold.

He's not doing that though is he? He's going to buy somewhere else ON HIS OWN, just like he will retire at 55 because HE WANTS TO. He is making big decisions about his life without you being involved because deep down he knows you wont be around and you are so busy with your head in your fantasy relationship cloud, you can't see it.

Nope, still not hearing any real justification for the problems that you're posting about. You can't move into his because its a small one-bed flat? It's London - most couples live that way when they first move in together. Are you SURE it's just him that is the commitment-phobe? Because you seem to think that's a genuine reason for not already moving in, whereas in my opinion you're either deluded or deep down you KNOW he's not the one and you just don't want to face facts. Are you maybe putting off moving in because your last relationship failed when you moved in? Well, that's precisely why moving in together is a good idea - it's a chance to iron out teething troubles like difference of opinion on who does what in the house, or if he has bad habit that you just can't live with. Moving in sorts out the wheat from the chaff - a relationship that fails after living together was always going to fail, it just happens sooner than if those irreconcilable differences don't show up when you're living apart because they don't have a chance to appear. Unless you decide to have children together but live separately then you simply have to do it, and get a move on. Stop wasting time!

I'm another one who has trouble seeing this as anything more than casual after 2 years of dating a couple of nights a week. I'm finding it hard to see you as equal life-long partners from what you are describing.

I agree with everything that's been posted on here. I think you should simply call his bluff and tell him that you want to move in with him within, say, 2 months and if that means moving into his "small one-bed" for a while then that's the way it has to be. Any reluctance to let you have wardrobe space or let you put your books on his shelf will be a MASSIVE red flag and if he doesn't compromise then for god's sake, it is too late and he'll never change for you or possible anyone else.

I take it you've been on holiday together? A fortnight? How did you get along then? Was it one big compromise or did you had a great time? Most couples have their first holiday together and if they aren't already livin together then that's the point when they decide that they ARE compatible and it's time to move in.

foxyfi111 Thu 14-Feb-13 09:33:05

Ok some of that has hit home. I can't really be angry at him if he doesn't want to be with me. This is not going to be a nice conversation and probably not one for valentines day. He is taking me out for a surprise tonight

foxyfi111 Thu 14-Feb-13 09:36:16

We have been on holiday but not more than a week, we got on fine. We have 2 weeks away booked in the summer

Bearbehind Thu 14-Feb-13 09:43:20

foxy, I'm not trying to be horrible, or reading more into a siutation than you have told us, it just seems like you deserve so much better. I wish my friend had seen sense 5 years ago before she wasted her early 30's on someone who is never going to change.

I hope things work out for you.

I'm really sorry OP, it can't be fun to read.

It's true that you can't make people love you or want to be with you, and you can't be angry if they don't.

I think what we're saying though is that you can control how you respond to that. If someone is not giving you enough respect, enough time, is not sure how he feels even after a couple years, then you have every right to decide that actually that's not good enough.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 14-Feb-13 09:47:10

Hope you are OK, foxy.

Remember - it's your relationship too. You have the right to ask questions, talk about what you want, find out what his real priorities are and make decisions on that basis.

My DP told me when we were about 27 and renting a place together that if I didn't want kids someday (I was undecided) then he wouldn't want to make any further commitment eg buying a place together. That wasn't manipulative, pushy or anything. It was simply honest and I was glad he was so clear.

You've been with your DP long enough to not be coy - it's not like you are bringing up marriage on the second date. If your life plans aren't compatible, it's ok to find out now and go from there.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 14-Feb-13 09:52:03

By the way, what makes you say he doesn't have respect for you?

foxyfi111 Thu 14-Feb-13 09:54:09

Also we are closer to 18 months than 2 years. Not that it makes any difference really

foxyfi111 Thu 14-Feb-13 10:07:41

He does respect me most of the time. His closest friends are extremely rich (millionaires) who live a very different life from us, they are his uni friends that have done well. I feel very small and normal compared to them. If I make a serious point about something he will respect my view. He often mocks my flat share which is cheap and messy and not a proper home (I used to have my own flat with my ex so it's hard to go back to living like a student) and he wants me to move out and get a studio. I don't want to spend money on living by myself as I'd rather save and live with him but I think he feels I'm pushing him into living with me because of that. He does sometimes make thoughtless comments about his exes or other girls he fancies and iv had to tell him how it upset me, I think he realises that that was wrong as he wrote me a card to apologise (I didn't talk to him for 2 days the last time he did that, sounds a bit extreme but I was just fed up if it). If I tell him how I feel about the relationship he will take me seriously. He did tell me that he doesn't like being dictated to, and that when that had happened in the past "he has walked". I don't know how he would respond to the moving in together in 2 months thing. If he thought he would lose me otherwise he probably would, but that possibly not the best reason to do it

kalidanger Thu 14-Feb-13 10:09:18

He's AWFUL!! What the fuck are you doing?! grin

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 14-Feb-13 10:09:46

Foxy, you are still seeing this as an "ultimatum" type thing. It isn't. It's saying, "this is what I want from my life, how about you? Are our plans compatible?"

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 14-Feb-13 10:10:49

Foxy, you are still seeing this as an "ultimatum" type thing. It isn't. It's saying, "this is what I want from my life, how about you? Are our plans compatible?"

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 10:12:30

You know, foxy, I find this thread really sad. And what is sad about it is that this guy is what you think you deserve. He has issues, he's not very respectful and he doesn't want to live with you or anyone else - believe me, it's HIM not you.

If you spent half the time working on yourself and your self-esteem that you spend on these relationships with emotionally unavailable people, I have a feeling you'd be a lot happier.

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 10:14:46

'he wants me to move out and get a studio. I don't want to spend money on living by myself as I'd rather save and live with him but I think he feels I'm pushing him into living with me because of that.'

Fuck what he wants! He's not your boss. How about spending that kind of money because it makes you happy.

He doesn't want to live with you, foxy. He doesn't want to live with anyone because he is very immature, self-centred and selfish.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 14-Feb-13 10:17:01

He doesn't get a say in where you live and he certainly shouldn't be mocking you and upsetting you.

I have never had my own place just for me - would far rather flat share and get more for my money than have a studio.

foxyfi111 Thu 14-Feb-13 10:19:04

Ok Doctrine. I will ask that tonight. I shall let u all know what happens. Maybe I do have some self esteem issues. And maybe some commitment issues as it was so hard breaking up with my ex. But I didn't deliberately pick someone who was going to be unavailable to me, when I first met him he was very keen, just not to see me all the time, I think he was conscious of not being too "needy" as one if his friends is with their gfs and the girl always leaves

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 10:22:22

Maybe? foxy, this guy is a bit of a dick. He doesn't love you. Love is respect. And you're hanging onto him like a barnacle. Why? Because somehow or another, you think this is how it should be, this is what you deserve. WTF? You're only 29, you have too long a time ahead of you to tether yourself to someone like this. There's a reason he's 40, never been married, never lived with anyone and why everyone here tells you it's a red flag.

You really shouldn't have to tell a forty-year-old man that you don't appreciate him talking about 'other girls he fancies'.

You say he will listen if you talk to him seriously but you shouldn't have to have a serious conversation just to get some respect for your viewpoint. Respect should be built into the very fabric of your relationship.

I just think you could do so much better my dear.

DontmindifIdo Thu 14-Feb-13 10:27:21

You know what, you're 29. You don't have years to waste on a man who's not committed to you if you want DCs. He's not 21 himself, he's 40 - he should have worked out what he wants from life about now, but to be fair, it sounds like he has - if he was looking for long term commitment, family etc he'd be trying to move towards you living together and be talking about family etc.

foxyfi111 Thu 14-Feb-13 10:27:26

I haven't said it yet but thank you everyone for bring so blunt with me. I have discussed this with friends but they can't provide an objective view especially those that have met him. There's things that friends can't say to you

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Thu 14-Feb-13 10:27:29

Good luck tonight, I hope you get what you need so you can make a good choice.

kalidanger Thu 14-Feb-13 10:28:53

He's working at a sixth form level, foxy. He's all pumped up with what his mates think and do, doesn't understand the differences between mortgages/net worth, will not commit to you as he thinks he's too fabulous to have a partner, it's all about girlfriends only, sneers at you living within your means as, again, he's not as clever as he thinks he is re: money. At a basic level he's incredibly immature and not right for you. You're not compatible because you're quite bright. Thought you're not acting like it.

Chalk this one up to experience and WAKE UP and move on, girl thanks

Bearbehind Thu 14-Feb-13 10:29:51

Really *foxy, you really take all that shit from him?

He actively wants you to get a studio rather than moving in with him? That's at least a 6 months stay of execution for him on the moving in front, every time you renew the tenancy.

His best friends are self made millionaires yet he sulks about hating his job and does fuck all about it? Becoming a self made millionaire isn't about luck, it's about hard work, commitment and ambition, things he appears to be sadly lacking in.

He talks about other women he fancies? I do hope that he is talking about celebrities etc rather than actual women you know. (not sure how much notice he would have taken of you not talking to you for 2 days if you only see him 2 a week though)

He has threatened that 'he will walk' if you dictate to him? I'm guessing he will see anything that the doesn't actively chose (which is actually everything) as being dictated to.

TBH I don't really think you need to have the 'big talk' I think deep down you know you have your answers, you just need to decide what to do about it.

x-post

Good luck talking to him, I know it won't be an easy conversation but I think it will be very revealing.

It sounds like you have been in relationships more or less constantly for most of your 20s, is that right? It might be a good idea to take some time off, just have fun, spend some time with yourself, get a little bit grounded. You need some time where you are not always reacting to other people or measuring your own needs against other people's. Basically if you have some time to be kind of selfish and do whatever you want, you're more likely to end up with someone who you're more compatible with.

Oh and just to stress what Doctrine said, do not in any way think of this conversation as being an ultimatum. Don't go along with any idea he might have that you're dictating to him -- you are allowed to have your own wants and needs and to have a sense of where things are going.

lottiegarbanzo Thu 14-Feb-13 10:30:27

Well, have read some but not the whole thread, so I'm sure this has been done but my first thought was that you need to sit down together and do some serious life and financial planning. The main thing his retirement would take from you both is flexibility. Once it's happened, you are the full time breadwinner. What if you lose your job? What if you want to work PT or be a SAHM while your children are small, or him a SAHD, or one of your children has special needs and requires more time and provision than you'd expected, all reducing your income, so you're not as far along as you'd hoped with your mortgage, pensions and savings, so 55 becomes unrealistic?

£80k is not a lot of money. It's a nice house deposit but as a sum to live off it's peanuts - and then it's gone. As a deposit, along with the equity on his flat, you could get a low enough mortgage that one of you could pay it - always a good contingency plan anyway. Is that part of his thinking, he provides capital, you revenue?

You really need to think first about what you both really want in your lives, then work through some scenarios about how that could be funded. Do not allow your life-decisions to be dictated by existing assumptions about your finances (like a fixed view on retirement age). It may well emerge that there's a choice to be made between children / flexible working during their early years / a family lifestyle you consider adequate / early retirement. If your values and what is important to you in life are the same, you'll be able to plan to achieve the life you want, if they're not, no amount of fiancial compromise is going to make you happy.

Btw, does 'doesn't like being dictated to' mean 'doesn't like being disagreed with'? I'm afraid I've only ever heard that line from rather self-involved, inflexible blokes who cannot accept that their view of the world is not the only view and who choose to personalise the disjunction between 'world in their head' and 'practical reality' by blaming someone else for the world not being constructed in their interests. Sorry.

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 10:34:59

What a waste of time he is. Seriously, most women wouldn't give this loser the time of day.

expatinscotland Thu 14-Feb-13 10:36:22

lottie, read the thread. The guy's a dick.

kalidanger Thu 14-Feb-13 10:37:29

Btw, does 'doesn't like being dictated to' mean 'doesn't like being disagreed with'?

I think it means his mates josh him about being 'under the thumb'. He's not partner material. He's an idiot. He's 40!

lottiegarbanzo Thu 14-Feb-13 10:37:44

p.s. you're 29 (lucky woman!), you have a lot of opportunity, flexibility and excitement ahead of you. I didn't meet DP until I was 33, lots of people I know got together in their 30s. Early 30s are brilliant, in my view, because, as someone else once put it 'you're still pretty but you know what you want and feel comfortable with yourself'. I was much happier and more confident about myself then than in my 20s. It's a great time of life to be making the choices you want, with whom you choose and a great deal of freedom to do so.

AndBingoWasHisNameOh Thu 14-Feb-13 10:47:19

Aside from everything else, I’d be worried about the “doesn’t like being dictated to” bit. Let’s say you manage to get him to live with you and to have a child. Will you have to scrape and grovel to ask for his help to avoid him claiming you are “dictating” to him? Because I bet you’d end up doing the lion’s share of all care with him congratulating himself on being a modern man because he changes a nappy a fortnight.

Crinkle77 Thu 14-Feb-13 10:51:47

You won't be the breadwinner as surely he will have his pension?

SparkyDudess Thu 14-Feb-13 10:52:29

Wow - agree with the concensus that you and him are just not on the same page.

My DH is 11 years older than me - I didn't have to coerce him into living with me, or 'tame' him, or 'train' him. I think you need to consider that, at 40, he is unlikely to change in any fundamental way.

My DH also always swore he'd retire at 55 - he's rethought that as we'll be paying for university fees until he's 60, and there's buckley's chance of me working and him not while we have that sort of outgoing.

Good luck with that conversation.

The more you tell us about him, the more he sounds like an utter twat.

Even a man half his age knows not to mention fanciable women to their girlfriends. Unless they ^deliberately wants to knock their self esteem".

He mocks your home. Despite knowing you have just recently moved on from your ex. He does not want to move in with you. He wants you to move into a studio flat. Why is this? So he can have you to himself. Away from your flat mates. Privacy. Yes, there is that. But you will not have anybody to talk to other than him. And you will be lonely on the 5 days of the week you dont see him. How is it better for you to move into a studio flat? You spend more money, is more available to him, you grow more dependent on him. But it wont allow him to commit to you or become dependent on you.

Shit. Run!

You know, Valentines is a bit of a Cliche. Restaurants lined up with tables for couples, with white cloths and red roses, pushing pink champagne and white chocolate hearts filled with glaze cherries or whatever. Maybe tonight is the night for a serious conversation about your values and what you want from your future. Who cares it is Valentines? Valentines is for true love and romance. NOt bullshit.

lottiegarbanzo Thu 14-Feb-13 11:32:57

Having read all OP's posts my impression is that the BF thinks it would be cool to have a 'Baby Mamma' i.e. a single-parent girlfriend, rather than being a proper father and husband. He probably doesn't think he thinks that(!) and would be offended and say he's just taking time to adjust to the idea of parenthood.

I would not entirely rule out that possibility but he is going to have to do a lot of adjusting of his ideas, quite fast. Don't forget that many 40yo men still think they're young, there isn't the same fertility threshold impinging on their ideas of age and identity.

But that's me going off into the realms of speculation based on quite little really. My earlier post raised questions that could help you identify any differences in values and aspiration and their consequences, in a more neutral way.

FWIW my DP, who I got together with when both in our early thirties, had spent quite a bit of time living alone, was of the 'my single life is work, fun and travel' mindset and was considering working only six or eight months a year and travelling the rest as a regular thing. He did take a while to adjust to being in a relationship and to the idea of children, so definitely not a case of 'our eyes met, all our desires were the same and a year later we had a baby'. In fact, we did delay TTC long enough to see that the relationship could work long term, with an obvious compromise about chances of success, given my age. But, but, but... DP was always open to embracing coupledom and family life and his 'single life' was more about making the best of necessity than an over-riding desire. So, the period of adjustment followed from a desire to make the relationship and a future family work, it did not function as a way of trying to drive that change.

kalidanger Thu 14-Feb-13 12:34:33
LessMissAbs Thu 14-Feb-13 12:59:03

A lot of what you say sounds, for want of a kinder word, delusional, OP. You also sound as though you're under this man's thrall, and also his control. I think he is very deliberately going out with a much younger woman because she will be easier to control and manipulate. The "walking" statement is not a good sign.

Its delusional to think you are both going to buy a 600k house, that his mortgage will definately be portable, that he is going to retire at 50 and still afford all this. Its as if you are being drawn into his delusions.

Foxy: <hugs>. This can't be an easy thread for you to read. But there are a lot of wise words on here. If you can face the very blunt and honest opinions that people are giving you (and everybody is on YOUR side, remember that), it might be worth coming back on after you see how tonight goes if you are not sure how to proceed with things. I would be concerned that he might win you over a bit if you fall into the whole valentines romance thing. And even if you did have a big talk with him today what if it ended badly, and you ended up breaking up? I would not then want the horrible journey home walking past loved up couples after just splitting up with my boyfriend.

Maybe just leave it for tonight, go out, enjoy the wine/food/film/whatever he has planned and enjoy it for what it is. Pay attention to how he treats you, how he talks to you, WHAT he talks about, even how much respect he shows the waiting staff etc Take it all in, give nothing away about how youre now feeling and then go home and have a bloody good think and evaluate your whole relationship. Leave the big serious conversation for tomorrow or a couple of days time.

Well, that's what I'd do anyway.

ZenNudist Thu 14-Feb-13 19:52:39

Foxy I posted up thread that you're wasting your time if he won't commit after 2 years. But now you've confused me by saying you've been going out 18 months. I think that the first year or two of a relationship can be just fun but you'd expect a guy to start seeing you more without being asked. Not set a biweekly date limit. In conversations about the future you'd expect to be broadly in agreement. You definitely don't want to be persuading him at every step. There are men out there who would be happy to settle down with you!

But I'm confused because if you set off in your relationship trying to map out your entire future from the start, it's all rather forced. You need to gel as a couple. Get on well. Get to know each other. Sounds like he is pushing you away because you've come on too strong... and he's not convinced you're the one.

Loopy posted she 'nudged' a 30yo guy into a committed relationship. I don't think that's too unusual. It's possible your bf is very immature and stubborn and enjoyed single life too much to 'cave' in his 30s but he will be "ready" in his 40s. He just doesn't sound that great or worth it.

I think you should start living life for you and do what you want. If he wants the same things he will follow, if he doesn't you can move on without him. [wishes for a go girl! Emoticon]

OHforDUCKScake Thu 14-Feb-13 21:30:42

Good luck tonight. I hope you're ok.

Dozer Thu 14-Feb-13 21:46:10

From your last post foxy he sounds like a total loser. Commenting on his exes and other women / mocking your living arrangements and telling you to change them / saying he will "walk" if "dictated to"........

Leave the bastard! There are lots of men who are NICE!

foxyfi111 Fri 15-Feb-13 09:29:34

Ok so. We had a nice evening, he took me out for dinner and then to a musical which was lovely. I did feel a bit tense during dinner as this has really been playing on my mind and I think he could probably tell. It's really hard to act all happy and in love when I'm having these doubts. I don't know if the doubts are whether or not he's right for me or whether or not he'll commit (or both). He seemed tense because he was paying gor everything and i know he hates that! but the musical was really great and romantic. With the commitment front I have made progress as he said how about we see each other 3 times a week now. He has a few buyers interested in his house and said to him what will he do after and he said "I don't know", he knows I want to rent with him, I just don't know what he's thinking. At the moment even I'm not sure (because he's not sure). When I left him today I felt really sad because I do love him I just don't know if its going to work sad

LessMissAbs Fri 15-Feb-13 09:41:13

You sound as if you're almost scared to talk to him about the things normal couples talk to each other about.

As for "not knowing" what he'll do after hes sold his house, thats ridiculous. Most mortgages are portable for only 6 months and he should have contacted his mortgage provider by now to check the exact rules that apply to him. If he is planning to get a new mortgage entirely, he needs to check they will be happy giving one to someone who only plans to work another 15 years, or whether he is going to not disclose that and whether they will lend to someone of his age (the mortgage market has changed a lot since he will have got his last mortgage).

So basically hes going to be homeless if his house sells. Maybe hes encouraging you to rent something else so he can move in without any hassles and live free until he decides what to do.

As for your living arrangements, what does he expect when you're only 29?

Even if he does "commit", do you think spending your life with someone like this is going to be bunch of roses?

As for him "feeling tense" because hes paying for a meal on Valentines Day...what is it you are picking up on exactly? Theres something your gut instinct is feeling troubled about. So many times I've found out this means theres another woman somewhere...

How do you think you can share your life with him, when you cant share your thoughts with him? If after 18 /24 months you dont know where the relationship is headed, surely it is headed nowhere?

Agreeing to see each-other 3 times per week rather than twice sounds bizarre to be honest. If he was really keen to see you he would have made arrangements to see you more often without having made an agreement about it first! It would have come natural to him! It is like seeing you is a chore...

Adversecamber Fri 15-Feb-13 09:47:18

He sounds tight with affection and money. I do think you need to ask specific questions regarding his house sale and moving in together. I guess your avoiding it because you think the answer will not be what you want to hear. If he knows you want to move in but evades discussing it properly then he is also rather cruel.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 15-Feb-13 10:00:21

Why would he be tense about paying for everything?

I find it absolutely bizarre that you are planning marriage and a future with a bloke who you can't even have a nice evening out with. You've only been together a couple of years, you don't live together so you haven't got any domestic crap to bog you down.

In short - you are not in love, the two of you. And if you aren't in love now then you sure as hell aren't going to be when you've got a £2000 a month mortgage payment, you're on maternity leave, he is still hating his job and you've got a screaming newborn so you are trying to survive on 3 hours sleep a night.
You need massive reserves of love, good times to look back on, shared goals, ambitions and dreams to make it through the tough times in a relationship. Now is when you should be building up that reserve, and you just aren't.

It should not be this hard

DIYapprentice Fri 15-Feb-13 10:08:38

Foxy - I've read your posts and my heart is breaking for you. Your DBF sounds just like a wonderful friend of mine, who is 50.

He is lovely, caring, (sounds a little more generous than your DBF financially though), wants kids, keen to be in a relationship - but never seems to be able to make it work

Knowing him and caring for him as a friend I can see exactly why it never works for him, and I truly don't think it ever well. He doesn't know how to handle the difficult times in a relationship, he doesn't know how to deal with conflict, he doesn't know how to really 'share' - his space, his time, his emotions.

It was highly amusing - after the fact - seeing him trying to deal with me when he had pissed me off to no end and had to stay put and deal with it rather than escaping and waiting for the situation to calm down. His eyes kept flitting around trying to work out how to escape. But HE pissed me off, and HE was going to deal with the situation and get through it like a grown up. Given even the slightest opportunity he would have made a run for it (figuratively speaking, he wouldn't actually have RUN grin) and still would.

At 40, I genuinely think he's too old now to make these changes to make the relationship work long term. If he could have done it sooner, he would have. But he has NEVER had a long term relationship before, and there is a very good reason for that. He can't, not unless HE wants to do it and is proactive about it, and without some damn good help such as a councillor, who HE wants to see.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 15-Feb-13 10:09:03

'With the commitment front I have made progress as he said how about we see each other 3 times a week now.'

<sigh>
You really are living in a hopeful bubble of fantasy here. If you move in together, you'll be seeing each other every day and night of the week. So, up to three nights in 18 months, you've got a way to go before he makes it to 7.
Why can't you see the relationship for what it is? It's a series of dates, not a long-term commitment.

JessieMcJessie Fri 15-Feb-13 10:10:14

Oh Foxy, I'm so sorry that the best he could offer you was three dates a week. It doesn't bode well at all for him coming round to the idea of you living together any time soon. I hate to say it but if he felt like you were The One, he wouldn't be making a to-do list that said "See Foxy three times a week", he'd be planning things for you to do together and before you knew it you'd pretty much be seeing each other all week and he would not be keeping count. This sounds like a grudging concession and before you know it he'll be asking for "time off " because he did all his contracted hours six weeks in a row. Seriously, take a peek at "He's just not into you", it's a really good book.

Does he call you on the days you are not together? That's a really good barometer of how he feels - if he likes to ring up and chat about what his day's been like and what he's having for tea then it shows he sees you as part of his day-to-day. If you are doing all the calling, or it's radio silence between dates, he's compartmentalising you and after 18 months that's a bad sign.

Also, massive red flag at you noticing that he's always uncomfortable paying for things. Putting aside the question of whether that is a reasonable attitude (IMHO it isn't), how rude of him to act in a way that allows you to perceive his discomfort.

You've got time on your side (and probably are meeting all sorts f interesting peole travelling for your fun job) - might be time to cut and run I'm afraid.

Actually it is laughable.
The ONE day of the year where a bloke is required by some weird tradition to wine and dine and treat his girlfriend, he is tense because he has to open his wallet. YET, he wants you to fund his early retirement.

I bet he wont be keen to move in with you until he is close to 55.....

JessieMcJessie Fri 15-Feb-13 10:18:38

This may be radical, but perhaps you could just tell him very calmly and non-accusingly that it's not moving forward enough for you, you can tell his heart isn't really in it, thanks for the good times but it's best that you both move on. Not an ultimatum. If by some stroke of luck what he feels is totally at odds with his behaviour, he'll get a bit opf a wake-up call, fight for you and ask you what he needs to do to keep you in his life. If he breathes a sigh of relief and evaporates into the ether then you'll know that it was the right thing to do.

TheDoctrineOfSciAndNatureClub Fri 15-Feb-13 10:21:58

that sounds Like a good idea Jessie.

lottiegarbanzo Fri 15-Feb-13 10:33:35

Oh dear. Thanks for updating but sorry it wasn't more hopeful.

Have you ever had a conversation with him about hopes and dreams? Not a serious, planning one but a fanciful, free-wheeling, what I've always hoped for and dreamed of one? Were his dreams anything like yours? Do his dreams and desires match the way he conducts his life in any way? Could the two converge, or not?

I'm afraid the retirement thing sounds like a statement of 'this is what I'm going to be doing with my life, take it or leave it'. So does the restricted dating.

The more time I spend on this thread, the more it appears you are just projecting your dreams onto him. He is 'the boyfriend', you have ideas about your future with a man, so, as he current candidate, you expect him to fit your plans. He's not 'generic boyfriend Y' he's a person, whose ideas, desires and aspirations appear to be pretty far from yours.

StuntGirl Fri 15-Feb-13 10:46:50

Oh wow, well then, disregard everything that's been said on this thread. Three whole days?! He's surely a keeper.

And what's with all this militant planning? "Well darling we've spent the requisite 18 months seeing each other 2 days a week. I feel its gone rather well for me, let's go a bit crazy, how does THREE days a week sound? Gosh, I do think we'll be ready to move in together by the time I'm, ooh, 55."

Seriously. When it's right it isn't this hard. At all.

MsVestibule Fri 15-Feb-13 10:47:58

I agree with Jessie 100%. You wouldn't be giving him an ultimatum; you're telling him that you both have different ideas about your medium term future and it's not working for you anymore. I'm hoping he evaporates into thin air, as from what you've told us on this thread, I don't think you'll make each happy in the long term.

Honestly foxy, I just want to give you a nice gentle shake to make you see your relationship as everybody else sees it. You don't have to 'just know' as soon as you meet the right person, but surely you can see that if a man kindly agrees to see you three times a week after two years, he just doesn't love you. And TBH, although I'm sure you're very fond of him, I don't think you love him either.

noddyholder Fri 15-Feb-13 10:49:58

He is going to retire before you as he is older. As long as he has money in place to support himself it is up to you to work until you can afford to retire and if you have children then you both need to provide. He sounds like this has always been his plan and if he is financially ok its not your business tbh. IF you were married and with children and truly together this would surely change as it normally does when relationships get to that stage You adapt according to needs etc but it doesn't sound like you 2 are heading in that direction at all.

DonderandBlitzen Fri 15-Feb-13 11:07:34

I agree with Alibaba

It should not be this hard

It is not going to get easier when you have children, it will get much harder. This should be the easy part of the relationship. You can do better OP. Don't waste your time with this man.

Bearbehind Fri 15-Feb-13 11:08:55

Oh, foxy, I truly feel sad for you. If last night was the beginning of the rest of your life, it was pretty dismal.

It must be soul destroying to sit with a man who, on one hand, has done something lovely and generous but who is making it clear he is unhappy about paying for it and he actually begrudges it.

alibaba is so right, you should be making happy memories now, not sitting uncomfortably through an evening that he is paying for.

What would he be like if you did have children and whilst on maternity leave you only had his income, from a job he hates? How do you think he'd make you feel then?

On the subject of living arrangements I'm struggling to see how lessmissabs think he is going to become homeless when he sells his house though? The length of time you can port a mortgage is irrelevant because not all mortgages allow you to do this anyway and as he is going to to better somewhere bigger, hence, more expensive, he'll need to remortgage anyway.

If a single, 40 year old man with no dependants earning £55k and presumably with no debts if he's tight cant get a mortgage then the economy is screwed! Many don't make it onto the property ladder until their 30's.

As for disclosing his plans to retire at 55- why would he? Many people plan to retire before their actual retirement age but many also have mortgages over terms longer which run past their ideal age of retirement, particularly if they are currently funding children at university etc. If he hasn't paid off his mortgage before he wants to retire, he'll have to carry on working or sell and buy something he can afford-simple.

Back to you how it affects you though, he seems to me that he is not the kind of man who agrees with renting. It strikes me from his behaviour in other areas that he would see it as a waste of money and wouldn't like to lose the 'status' of owning.

I think that means that when he says he doesn't know what he'll do when he sells his place he is yet again talking crap. I doubt he's considering renting and he's not considering buying with you so that leaves one option, buying on his own again.

I like jessies suggestion too. It is make or break but wouldn't you rather that than waste more time and energy if he's not going to give you what you want. If he isn't committed enough to make more effort now and would rather walk away then it will save you heartache in the future.

I wouldn't hold your breathe for a fairy tale outcome though, I actually had to re-read the bit where he condescended to see you for an extra night a week- big wow!

That's not how it should be, couples who love each other just don't allow each other pre-defined blocks of their time, they want to spend as much time together as possible, which is how moving in together becomes the natural step- you're practically doing it already.

maleview70 Fri 15-Feb-13 11:36:11

"couples who love each other want to spend as much time together as possible"

Not neccesarily true. Some people love their partners a great deal but don't want to spend every spare minute they have with their partner. One night a week my DW is not at home. I love it. Loves the peace and quiet and freedom to do what I want. Doesn't make me love her any less.

Not all relationships have to be so full on to work. This one does sound a bit on his terms though.

Only you can achieve what you want in life and when it involves someone else, you have to question if he will make you happy for the next 30 years or so. If you don't think he will then make the decision, shed a fyear ears and move on. You are 29. You have years ahead to rebuild your life.

Bearbehind Fri 15-Feb-13 11:51:23

Ok, probably a bad choice of words maleview, I meant that spending time together is high on the list of priorities of a couple who are in love. Certainly in the first few years of a relationship that is going to last, if there are lots of things you'd rather do than see your partner, something is not right. You should be wanting to spend as much time as is practical together.

It is different once you do live together though, having a night to yourself can be a nice break.

Unless there are some very real logistical issues, which in this case there aren't, Couples who love each other shouldn't book appointments to see each other though or only allocate a maximum number of days per week, they should naturally want to spend more time together.

Do you really think it is acceptable for this guy to have allocated his girlfriend an extra night of his precious time a week?

FeistyLass Fri 15-Feb-13 12:09:07

foxy I'm sorry Valentine's Day wasn't quite what you'd expected but I imagine quite a lot of your relationship falls below your expectations. I know a lot of this advice might seem harsh but on the bright side, you do keep coming back and you do seem to be taking some of it on board. All of that will help you to make the right decision.
I'd like to add one word of caution to Jessie's suggestion. Obviously an honest chat should help you to find out where you stand . . .but. . .if he has controlling tendencies then you pushing him away might prompt him to try to keep control by wooing you back. Of course, the tricky thing is that if he is genuinely interested then he'll try to woo you back too. I think the key is to watch what he does not just listen to what he says. His actions will show if he does see this as a genuine relationship or just casual dating.

specialsubject Fri 15-Feb-13 12:44:04

sounds like teenage games, hints and attempts at mind-reading here. You two can't talk to each other.

you are wasting each other's time. Move on.

Having read all this thread today, I'm afraid I agree with the consensus; I just don't see this as a functioning relationship. I'm struggling to see how it even managed to get past its first month, since "When I first met him we would just spend one or two quiet nights in together a week." What, no cinemas, no restaurants, no relaxing lunches in country pubs after a pleasant walk? Just quiet nights in, right from the start? How did you even meet? And all those quiet nights in; usually they lend themselves to long talks - sharing ideas, plans, dreams. Yet now, 18 months in, I don't see that these talks have ever taken place.

Everyone else has drawn your attention to all the things I see as important already, and I'm hoping you're thinking them through. But there's one other thing I am really wondering about, and maybe you and he have talked about this, so I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this one point. In your OP, you said "he hates working (teacher - gets lovely holidays off). He dropped a bombshell recently that he wants to retire at 55, ie 15 years time." What I was wondering is - does he hate working as a teacher, or does he hate working as anything at all? Because there's a big difference, to me. (Although equally bad.)

If he hates working as a teacher, to continue in the job he hates for another FIFTEEN YEARS - why? Why not look for another job that makes him happy? Yes, it can be scary to change, and you have said he doesn't like change, but to take no steps to leave a job you hate just seems a little weird to me. I can see why you think he doesn't hate it as much as he says, but supposing he does hate it as much as he says - what does that say about him? That he would rather hate the next fifteen years and retire at 55, than enjoy the next twenty five years and retire at 65? Does that not look like a very screwed set of priorities?

And if he hates working at all - well unless you are fabulously wealthy, work is what puts a roof over your head and food on your table. How are you going to manage that without working? You either have to live off the state or another person. And I'm not sure I'd have any respect for someone with that attitude. And I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the person they lived off.

LessMissAbs Fri 15-Feb-13 15:21:54

bearbehind "On the subject of living arrangements I'm struggling to see how lessmissabs think he is going to become homeless when he sells his house though? The length of time you can port a mortgage is irrelevant because not all mortgages allow you to do this anyway and as he is going to to better somewhere bigger, hence, more expensive, he'll need to remortgage anyway.

If a single, 40 year old man with no dependants earning £55k and presumably with no debts if he's tight cant get a mortgage then the economy is screwed! Many don't make it onto the property ladder until their 30's. "

If he doesn't have any plans to rent or buy somewhere else once he sells, he will be homeless. The OP said he didn't know what he was going to do. I find it incredulous that a 40 year old professional has no idea why he is selling his home or where he will stay when it does sell, at the stage of having several potential buyers interested.

He will not get a mortgage for £520,000, even jointly with the OP on her salary of £40,000, which is what the OP said they are planning to do.

I also wonder if there is something that he is not telling the OP. I am still thinking secret girlfriend/family/DCs/debts.

Bearbehind Fri 15-Feb-13 15:37:28

I see what you mean now lessmissabs.

I must just be more cynical than you because I don't think for a second that he doesn't know what he's going to do. I think he just doesn't want to tell foxy what he plans to do. This is a bloke who has planned what he's going to do in 15 years, no way does he not know what he's going to do later this year.

The £520k house never came into my thoughts either because that was only ever foxys dream, I suspect he doesn't even know about it.

I do wonder if he's not telling the OP something though too because just doing some sums now, if he currently has a £300k house with a £80k equity he must have a £220k mortgage which would be 4 times his salary already, therefore at the upper end of what he can borrow if he earns £55k.

Maybe he's planning on moving further afield to get more for his money or maybe he has a secret stash of cash somewhere, or maybe he owes less on his flat than he has told her.

TBH, I'd be surprised if someone who is as tight as he is and who's friends are millionaires, honestly discussed the intimate details of his finances with his 2 dates a week girlfriend.

ZenNudist Fri 15-Feb-13 17:34:37

I'm sorry you had a bad valentines day, at least the show sounded good smile. I think he sounds like a plank. I keep trying to view him charitably as you do but keep coming back to the idea that he's not much cop now and by the time you go a little way down the road you'll either make each other miserable or have split up just wasted your early thirties on him.

I agree with jessie's suggestion. Walk away, if he wants you he will say so. Usually blokes like this are relieved to get out. Sometimes they realise they are in love and up their game.

A good friend went out with a 36 yr old mummy's boy who was lovely, good looking, well off, they got on great, her friends & family loved him. As did she. He was really into her & saw her all the time but was clear from the outset that he didn't want to marry & did not want children in any circumstances. She wanted the opposite, thought she could change his mind. 2 yrs later, they had been living together but arguing about the future. She was 34 & wanted to marry, very broody. She cut her losses on the love of her life and left, moved in with a guy she didn't love who wanted the same things as her (bit extreme I know). Her bf tried to get her back, offered to propose and have children. Sooooo men can change. Fwiw she said no, they had wrecked what they had. Stuck with the new guy. They are now married with baby. Her ex married too, a woman with older kids. I don't know if this tells you anything at all. At least you can see that if your bf loves you and you break up it will force him to reassess his priorities.

DontmindifIdo Fri 15-Feb-13 17:44:43

I would put money on "I don't know" is a lie - he has plans, but they don't involve living with you. He probably understands this will be something of a 'crunch' moment and is trying to stall that as long as possible, possibly so he can present this as a done deal not "I'm thinking of buying in X town" or "I'm thinking of renting for 6 months while I look for the right thing" which will allow you to open the conversation about getting a place together.

As for another girlfriend/family, I wouldn't be surprised - he's holding you at arms length, he's selling his flat without having plans to move elsewhere, and is trying to get you to move out of your flat share to a place of your own. He only sees you 2-3 nights a week and rarely those nights out are in public...

Pandemoniaa Fri 15-Feb-13 17:52:54

He has a few buyers interested in his house and said to him what will he do after and he said "I don't know", he knows I want to rent with him, I just don't know what he's thinking

I fear that he is probably thinking, "if I continue to be vague and non-committal then it buys me more time to avoid having to discuss living together". I also suspect he is doing little, if anything, to sell his house because you don't sell houses (and incur the costs and aggravation that accompanies it) without a much clearer idea of the next step.

Seeing each other 3 times a week isn't the greatest development either, is it? Only on the current rate of progress it'll be several more years before you get to the dizzy heights of 5 nights a week. Let alone 7 nights under the same roof.

Glad that your evening was OK in the main though.

NijelTheDestroyer Fri 15-Feb-13 17:54:53

OP, out of interest did you have boyfriends as a teenager? Because I had a couple and I know that we would see each other all the time, the only thing stopping us would be parents objections!

Presumably you don't have the parents objections, yet still you don't seem to ever have been in the 'why don't you come over and we'll get a takeaway and watch a film' or ' why don't we go out for a meal tonight' kind of place. It doesn't sound fun. It should be fun.

You turn 30 soon, trust when I say it doesn't matter how you feel about it now, it will matter and feel more real when it happens! On the info we have here, I'd say cut your losses and find someone who can and will love you.

Yfronts Fri 15-Feb-13 18:21:09

If you both want to look after the kids, you both can do it part time?

Yfronts Fri 15-Feb-13 18:27:17

I think he should keep his pad but rent it out - will be a future pension. You should live in a rented property with him while saving for a house deposit. You should start trying to conceive aged 33. You could well be very well past having babies at all by your late thirties.

Yfronts Fri 15-Feb-13 18:34:20

Agree don't buy a 600k house on your/his income. It will leave you no breathing space to be a stay at home parent.

IAmLouisWalsh Fri 15-Feb-13 18:34:33

Please, move on. Cut your losses.

He is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land if he thinks he can retire at 55. He is the same age as me and I am a teacher. It is a running joke that I can expect to work for another 27 years before getting my pension. I will not be teaching for another 27 years - I can't see myself doing more than 15 - but I will need another full time job to keep my head above water then.

But the bigger issue here is lck of communication and lack of commitment. If you hadn't said you lived in London I would think I knew your boyfriend - hopeless liar, hopeless commitment-phobe. But it seems there are two of them...

Foxy, when you asked him what he was going to do next and he replied that he didn't know, how did the conversation go then? Was there just a big pause or change of subject or something? Because its a wierd way to end a conversation about a major life change. Kind of right in the middle of the conversation! I would have said "what do you mean, you don't know? You don't know where to move or you dont know whether you want to buy or rent?" It's the next logical question in that exchange, surely? We're you interrupted and then it never came up again or was it an awkward tumbleweed moment?

Why is he selling his house?

Why are you not moving in?

Where is he going?

Bearbehind Fri 15-Feb-13 22:15:05

How are you foxy?

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