To think their is NOTHING wrong with extended breastfeeding or wet nursing?

(512 Posts)
Thisisaname Sun 10-Feb-13 16:33:04

Look at the comments below

I was researching extended breastfeeding and came across this.
I see nothing wrong with this, I wouldn't be 'scared' for life if I could remember being breast fed or found out I was given someone else's milk.
I think the only 'scarring' would come from going from the natural environment of being fed from something to then finding out a large majority find it sexual, not the actual feeding itself.

TattyDevine Sun 10-Feb-13 16:37:20

I remember being breast fed.

TattyDevine Sun 10-Feb-13 16:37:58

I got told off for digging my fingernails in, which I remember, apparently I used to sort of palpate her like a little animal grin

TattyDevine Sun 10-Feb-13 16:39:15

And I had to go into hospital for an operation and my mum came to see me after and I remember feeding from her then and it was just what I wanted, all I'd had up till then was a vegemite sandwich and a cup of water that smelled of cholorine

TattyDevine Sun 10-Feb-13 16:39:38

That said, despite remembering the water tasted of cholirine, I can't really remember what breastmilk tastes like!!!

mrsbunnylove Sun 10-Feb-13 16:40:07

daughter breastfed until she was four. she's 30 now and not 'scarred' as far as i can tell - except possibly by the fat that flew into her face when cooking last night. she's breastfeeding her own 14mo daughter.

breastfeeding is fine. i don't like cheap and nasty articles in low magazines though. you'll find you're much happier if you don't read them!

DefiniteMaybe Sun 10-Feb-13 16:42:36

I think its the way that article is written. Its made to sound wrong when it just isn't. Why would you be scarred by remembering having a brilliant bond with your mum? There are some strange folk about. A 5 year old is still a small child.

Startail Sun 10-Feb-13 16:42:40

Well I know three five year olds who bf and one rather well adjusted young lady who gave up just shy of double figures.

She would tell you exactly what tripe those comments are but she's fast asleep after a 12th birthday no-sleep over.

And if you are a journalist, please don't PM me as We have no wish to turn something beautiful and special, that happened totally by accident into a freak show for bigoted fools.

CloudsAndTrees Sun 10-Feb-13 16:42:59

I disagree. I think when a child gets to five years old its nothing to do with the child's needs and all about a selfish mother who is probably insecure and feels she needs to be needed far too much.

Children need comfort, but they also need independence, which means they need to be able to comfort themselves and to accept comfort from other people.

There is nothing wrong with wet nursing a baby whose own mother can't do it and they are still little enough to need breast milk, but I would think a woman who wanted to feed other people's children just for the sake if it was plain weird. Even if the children enjoy it, they are children. They enjoy doughnuts, that doesn't mean they should be allowed as many of them as they want.

GrimmaTheNome Sun 10-Feb-13 16:43:48

Nothing wrong with EBF so long as the child wants to continue (which in all probability won't be much longer in the case in that story but its nobody's business but theirs).

Wet nursing used to be normal. Of course, the way it used to be (too posh to BF yourself, hire a wench) isn't exactly something we'd want to go back to but there must be cases where it would be beneficial. If you had lots of milk and a friend with a poorly or premie baby who couldn't herself BF, it'd be a pretty awesome gift, wouldn't it?

Yes, because doughnuts are exactly the same as breastmilk aren't they? hmm

Extended breast feeding I have no problem with, however saying that you will do it into the kids teenage years really!?

I thought children lost the ability to latch at around 6/7 when the adult teeth came through but your post suggests not startail

YANBU OP, of course there is nothing wrong with extended BF. Our society has some fucked up ideas.

DefiniteMaybe Sun 10-Feb-13 16:47:19

Clouds it is biologically normal for a child to bf to 5 and beyond. It is not about the mother at all. And seriously, how independant can a 5 year old be?

Rainbowinthesky Sun 10-Feb-13 16:48:16

It's not extended anyway. It's natural term bf. I'm not reading the link as I expect its a pile of crap.

eragon Sun 10-Feb-13 16:48:55

I fed by lot for years. its the norm. I feel uncomfortable when bottles are taken away the instant a baby turns 1. Our society pushed independence on them, rather than letting them gain this skill at own pace.

Rainbowinthesky Sun 10-Feb-13 16:50:47

People who say its or the mothers benefit usually have no experience of natural term bf and are guessing. I've never met or read on here anyone who has experience say its for the mother.

CloudsAndTrees Sun 10-Feb-13 16:53:26

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, I'm just giving my personal opinion. I bf'ed my own babies until they were nearly a year old, I just don't think they need it when they are old enough to go to school.

Theicingontop Sun 10-Feb-13 16:58:07

The article is written to sound sensational, I don't trust a single quote from it tbh.

DS is two and a half and still breastfed at least once a day. Big whoop. I know he won't be by five years old, because frankly if I'm nearly fed up with it now I doubt I'll be willing by then. Plus, hopefully he'll have a sibling to contend with.

The wet nursing doesn't bother me a bit, but I wouldn't take her up on her offer. Unless I was in a pinch and I'd actually seen she was disease-free and ate as well as I do, then I may consider it. But I'm a sahm so my norks are a free-for-all.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:01:45

I cannot stand seeing walking, talking children breastfed.

KaraStarbuckThrace Sun 10-Feb-13 17:02:16

I am laughing at the thought of forcing any child to breastfeed!!

What a ridiculous opinion you have Clouds!

pigletmania Sun 10-Feb-13 17:04:54

So the woman in the article would continue bf her child until a teenager, sorry that's totally wrong, when will she stop when he turnes into an adult and moves out biput comes home for a bf! I don't agree with extended bf after 3 , but would never pass comment to the mother of stare, that's rude

It would be a talented child indeed who could walk and talk whilst being breastfed Absoluteeightiesgirl. More seriously, the World Health Organisation recommends that children are breastfed until they are at least 2 years old when surely most chidren are walking and talking?

KitchenandJumble Sun 10-Feb-13 17:06:49

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with breastfeeding beyond age 3-ish. I don't believe that an older child would gain any benefit nutritionally that could not be had elsewhere, nor would he/she gain any benefit in terms of comfort that could not be had otherwise. But others feel differently, so to each her own.

Planning to breastfeed a teenager sounds bonkers to me, but I am hoping that the woman was just engaging in a bit of hyperbole.

corkgirlindublin Sun 10-Feb-13 17:07:19

Meh it's normal. I don't see the problem. Bf mine till she was too and she weaned when I got pregnant. My daughter started to walk when she was 9.5 months so according to the previous post that would be wrong. IMHO anyone who knows anything or has ever bf understands how normal it is. The hysteria stems from lack of understanding

BubblegumPie Sun 10-Feb-13 17:07:42

My DD was walking and talking at 10 months old Absolute, should I have stopped then? hmm

corkgirlindublin Sun 10-Feb-13 17:07:57

Yikes too = two

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:08:59

Bubblegum
You know what I mean hmm

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:10:32

TheHouseofMirth
Really..... you dont say!

FlouncingMintyy Sun 10-Feb-13 17:10:46

I think most people feel that children can have a wonderful bond with their mothers just from general closeness and cuddling and that the bond experienced by extended breastfeeders is not superior to the bond experienced by babies and toddlers who are weaned earlier. In the First World, with the abundance of good food we have available, the "feeding" part of extended breastfeeding seems questionable.

BubblegumPie Sun 10-Feb-13 17:11:45

No, i don't think I do. How adept at walking and talking do they need to be before you 'can't stand' to see them bf?

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:12:29

I couldn't care less if women breastfeed until their kids ate teengers. They can do what they want.
I personally cant stand it
No hysteria here

slatternlymother Sun 10-Feb-13 17:12:55

How long did children traditionally bf for in caveman times? Was it extended or did it tail off?

pigletmania Sun 10-Feb-13 17:13:20

I would not want anybody else feeding my child it's just too personal. It would remind me of what I was not able to do, I expressed for 9 months for ds 1 year.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:15:18

Bubblegum
If you wish to be pedantic about it......

CaseyShraeger Sun 10-Feb-13 17:19:15

Clouds, do you think five-year-olds shouldn't have milk at all, because that's the same as giving them unlimited doughnuts? Or are you fine with their having milk from other species but just not from their own species?

Happily DD2 has a language delay, so I'm A-OK with both Absoluteeightiesgirl and the WHO. Yay for me.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:20:48

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

BubblegumPie Sun 10-Feb-13 17:23:00

I don't think I'm being pedantic, you seem to think it's inappropriate to bf a child who can walk and talk, but as I pointed out there are many children who can do both long before the WHO minimum recommendation of two years. I'm just curious as to when you feel children should stop bf? After their first step? Their first word? Do they have to be able to walk AND talk, or is one skill enough to make bf turn your stomach?

stormforce10 Sun 10-Feb-13 17:27:21

I breastfed dd until she was very nearly 2 and often wish I'd carried on longer. Someone commented recently that I was feeding DS for a very long time and should think about moving onto bottles. He's not 7 months yet, I'll feed him for some time yet.

As for wetnursing, as long as its done in a context of agreement between parents and the baby is happy and healthy I do not have a problem. Not the same thing but I donated pints and pints of milk to the milk bank when DD was a baby and that went to strangers babies who I never even met. I like to think it helped someone though. If necessary I would feed someone else's baby and I think I'd be quite comfortable with doing so

Viviennemary Sun 10-Feb-13 17:29:58

Personally I do not agree with extended breast feeding. But it's up to the individual what they wish to do. I would not wish to breastfeed a five year old or see that this would be in any way beneficial to a child of that age in the society we live in now. I think breastfeeding should stop around one.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:30:25

Bubblegum
Ok..... to clear this up for you..... a few examples....

Breastfeeding beyond a year.
Breastfeeding children who ask
Breastfeeding children as they stand there

I PERSONALLY cant stand it.
I have no issue with women who choose to do it

Ok?

slatternlymother Sun 10-Feb-13 17:30:54

I just wonder if it was commonly done before now. You know, like caveman times or something. If a child is feeding well on a solid diet, is the bm going to massively benefit them?

Maryz Sun 10-Feb-13 17:31:23

I find the bit about breastfeeding other people's babies a bit strange. Especially the "I enjoyed it" bit.

I have no problem with anyone breastfeeding any child anywhere any time at any age, but I do think children should be allowed to give up when they want to (even if it is before the mother wants to), and I also am not entirely convinced by babies being breastfed (apart from emergencies) by women who are not their mothers.

CooEeeEldridge Sun 10-Feb-13 17:31:32

Just do what you want. Not sure why people have to bang on about their 'choices' all the time. It's really not that big a deal.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 17:31:52

Ah, 'all about the mother'- that's one of my favourites! Also 'walking and talking', that's another classic. After 4 years I've heard them all several thousand times. It'd be lovely if someone came up with some new material. I'd like to volunteer 'extended breastfeeding increases the risk of alien abduction'.

Startail Sun 10-Feb-13 17:31:57

DD could still latch on with some adult teeth, although she's still losing molars in Y7.

DD2 is a clever child she tends to take a pride in doing things well. Ensuring Mum let her carry on BFing was just added to learning to read and getting 10/10 in her spelling test.

She absolutely carried on feeding because she wanted to, it was her special thing. Her way of being in control of her world for just a few minutes in a day of adults telling her what to do. For that short space of time Mummy did what she wanted her to do.

It's only since she's stopped I've realised how much more than a cuddle and a special quiet end to the day it was to her.

Maryz Sun 10-Feb-13 17:32:10

And, to be honest, looking at ds and his 13/14 year old friends who seem to be becoming obsessed with sex and boobs, I can't see breastfeeding teenage boys becoming the norm grin.

slatternlymother Sun 10-Feb-13 17:34:45

Does your DD still bf startail? How old is she? <curious> does it work well?

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:35:42

I'd like to volunteer 'extended breastfeeding increases the risk of alien abduction'

A rather pointless and petty comment.

You like it, I dont. Job done

CaseyShraeger Sun 10-Feb-13 17:39:33

Absoluteeighties, you are picking a very random and not very time-based set of criteria (walking and talking) to specify what you "can't stand seeing". But when you're called out on being not only judgmental but inconsistently judgmental we are the ones who are being "pedantic" or "playground". If you can't properly articulate or defend your position perhaps you shouldn't bang on about it on a public forum, love .

CaseyShraeger Sun 10-Feb-13 17:44:40

Can you not stand the idea of doing it yourself (absolutely 100% fair enough) or can you (as you at first said) not stand seeing it (which goes beyond having "no issue" with women doing it)?

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 17:45:01

startail did i read that right that you breast fed till your DD had adult teeth? Y7 ?? My stomach just turned! Sort of reminds me of that little britain sketch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuPBbFOiygo

Different strokes for different folkes and all thats not for me!!! Sorry but i find it creepy after 2.

CaseyShraeger Sun 10-Feb-13 17:47:37

Ah, Little Britain -- now I think we do have full house on our bf bingo card. Good game, everyone.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 17:49:23

<shakes Casey's hand> These games are over far too quickly these days. I am really going to push for my 'alien abduction' suggestion to be included on the cards.

Mine weaned themselves. Older one at nearly two and younger one at just past two. Dd was bottle fed.
I don't see any problem with it. My two friends breastfed their boys till nearly 5, both can remember and neither is scarred for life, they are well adjusted young men, one got married recently.
It tastes like cantalope. grin

Ilovesunflowers Sun 10-Feb-13 17:56:12

As an ex teacher I find it a little strange to think school age children might still be breastfed. They are so grown up at school - writing stories, independence etc. It just doesn't sit well with me that they might still be breastfed at this age.

It's not wrong as such - it's just my feelings.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 17:57:42

Casey
My mistake for not including a selection of criteria to support my opinion. I assumed, wrongly, that it would be obvious what point I was trying to make without it being torn apart in a rather pedantic manner.
In answer to your questions no, I didn't do it myself and no I don't like seeing it either. I think it looks odd and cannot see the point of breast feeding children until they are of age where they ask for it themselves.
As I have pointed out, that is simply MY opinion. What others close to do is up to them.

Maybe83 Sun 10-Feb-13 18:07:30

Very emotive subject but my mam had my sis when i was in my teenage years and fed on demand and til she was past 3. To be honest I found it really quite sickening to see her pulling out of my mam and just climbing up and pulling down her top. She wouldn't take soother bottle only my mam could comfort her. When I had dd the thought of bf made me feel physicaly sick to be honest and I couldn't bring my self to even try. I'm pregnant again and a close friend has 7 mth old who she bf as recommended by health visitor etc and I thought maybe I would change my mind as I'm a bit older but it hasnt and I agree I can just cope with sight of a baby feeding but near 1 and it beyond s freaks me out so no I don't feel comfortable with ebf..but I m not the one doing it so its up to each mam to decide for them self s what they want to do.

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 18:12:50

Im genuinly curious to know if this is a class or race thing to breast feed after 3. Is there any proven research that says it improves the child life in any way.

Also do you think it would have any kind of effect on the child with their friends if they were breast feeding,5yr upwards, how there friends (children ) would perseive them.

casey if it WAS essential to have breast milk at age 5 - wouldnt it be available to buy is shops, in the milk fridge and also i find it strange you are happy your child has a language delay so you can keep on breastfeeding......hmm

ChestyNut Sun 10-Feb-13 18:13:09

Each to their own.

On a serious note if I may ask, is there a nutritional/health benefit once a child is eating a full and varied diet?

Yet to have DC but like to know the facts incase.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 18:28:27

I was only able to breast feed one of mine. I became almost obsessed with it. I breastfed her until she was a year old then she sort of stopped herself. She then ended up getting just about every illness and allergy, finishing off with leukaemia sad

I felt very irrationally bit pissed off after listening to my midwife going on and on about how important it was health wise ad breast fed babies were healthier blah blah blah.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 18:37:34

Sorry to hear about your DD's leukaemia, Absolute sad

Chesty- Yes, there are still health benefits- breastmilk has loads of vitamins and minerals in a very easy to absorb form. There are also antibodies to help fight infection (a child's immune system isn't fully mature until around 5-6 years old). It also contains stem cells. The action of breastfeeding helps to shape a child's jaw and palate which can help to prevent conditions like obstructive sleep apnoea. There has been very little research though, and scientists still don't know all of the things that make up human milk.

If you're interested in reading more then this is a good place to start.

Antipag Sun 10-Feb-13 18:41:39

Well the opening line of 'most mums give up breast feeding when their baby is about six months' proves what a load of unresearched, inaccurate bias BS this article is. I fed till DS1 was nearly 4 (had to stop DS2 when he was 1 for medical reasons). Do we really need to go into the benefits of breast milk? It doesn't suddenly stop being beneficial when a child reaches a certain age. I really don't understand why people think cows milk is preferable and 'socially acceptable' and breast milk is not. In many developing countries mun's breast feed the elderly as well because they are unable to digest anything else. Is that wrong? Not IMO.

Inertia Sun 10-Feb-13 18:51:58

Casey and EauRouge - I think you might be calling bingo a bit early on this one.

We haven't yet had the bodily fluids comparison ( "wouldn't pee in middle of restaurant therefore babies should only be BF in the loo" ), nor a mention of only "discrete" breastfeeding being acceptable from people who don't get the discreet / discreet distinction.

gimmecakeandcandy Sun 10-Feb-13 18:58:24

I am one on of the world's biggest fans of bf but this article is - a I agree - sensationalised and to say she will bf until the child to teenage years is going beyond what breastfeeding gives to a baby or a child.

thegreylady Sun 10-Feb-13 19:02:37

I think each to her own and I would never judge another woman for her choices.To me bf past age 2 is just odd but that's one opinion.

Antipag Sun 10-Feb-13 19:06:04

It is VERY unusual for a child to continue to feed once all the milk teeth have gone. The article is skewed enough but the comments below are ridiculous. People's perception of breast feeding in this country is still terrible IMO. I don't know when it began but I know a lady who had her child in the 70's and when she told her doctor she planned to breastfeed he said 'but surely YOU can AFFORD not to breastfeed'. I think the media often portray EBF in the same way as this article, with the subtle undercurrent of 'this woman is crazier than a box of frogs' running through it.

absolute how can you use walking and talking as a natural end to breastfeeding?the age kids walk and talk is so varied!my DS walked at 6 months and there's no way I would dream of stopping bf because of that!

OxfordBags Sun 10-Feb-13 19:09:58

I can tell you for a fact that my Ds, who is nearly 2, can walk and talk whilst BFing. The child has a bright future in the circus, if nothing else!

These mags are trashy bollocks for thickos who get off on bosom-hoiking over boring-ass shit presented as sensationalism.

Anyway, humans lose the ability to suckle at about 8 at the most, so she won't be able to Bf him into his teens (like the mag dodn't persuade her to say that purely for the shock value, pfthththth).

People who have a problem with Bfing or extended breastfeeding are the ones with the issues, not the mothers doing the nursing. Nothing more lovely and natural to BF (if it's right for you). We have so much fun, as well as bonding, me and DS. He brings my breasts presents and all sorts!

BTW, most women who Bf beyond 6 months or 1 yr often do it very privately exactly because of idiotic notions like those expressed in the Closer comments and all too often on MN, so the real figures of how many mothers nurse for how long are totally unworkoutable.

OxfordBags Sun 10-Feb-13 19:10:52

Btw, I am disappointed that no-one has mentioned babies stopping once they have teeth. I have my dabber hovering over that one on my bingo card!

BubblegumPie Sun 10-Feb-13 19:11:46

Nobody has said, "Not once they have teeth" yet.
I like that one, because not only can you pull the universal milk teeth argument, but also MIL was born with teeth so I have a handy real life example of why that one in particular is crap.

BubblegumPie Sun 10-Feb-13 19:12:08

xpost with oxford

BubblegumPie Sun 10-Feb-13 19:14:05

moresnow shock six months?! I'm impressed!

Enfyshedd Sun 10-Feb-13 19:16:54

DD is nearly 9mo and doesn't like formula. I returned to work a fortnight ago and have never had much success with expressing apart from the first few weeks, so DD's just down to evening/night/first thing in the morning feeds, then water during the day when she's with the CM or DP. She's had some solids since 4mo (one meal a day up to 6mo) & has been a 3 meals a day plus snacks girl since 6.5mo apart from when she was ill over new year.

How long did I expect to BF for? I have no idea - I don't think I built up any expectations about it. I was pleased to make it past 6 weeks which was the point at which my DM had to give up as her supply wasn't enough for me. I was especially pleased as DD spent her first week in SCBU and I had to express daily until she was discharged.

How long DO I expect to BF for? Again, I have no idea - DD currently co-sleeps and I imagine it will tail off once she goes into her own bed/room. When will that happen? When she seems ready for it is the best answer I can give - DP accepted and now supports the co-sleeping after initially being reluctant to the idea, so it's working for us as DD still seems to prefer the comfort of me or her DF when she's with us (although she's apparently napping well for the CM hmm - might ask them for tips soon...).

bubblegum Yeh the teeth one is great!although it has hurt more since teeth came through!

ChestyNut Sun 10-Feb-13 19:17:42

Thankyou eau smile

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 19:19:01

snow please see previous comment

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 19:23:28

My 5 yr old is on the brink of giving up. Totally initiated by her. She's gone from suckling to just cuddling 99% of the time. To be honest, I never thought she would give up.

It's all done in private so I've never inflicted the sight on anyone who wouldn't be comfortable with it.

KD0706 Sun 10-Feb-13 19:23:40

I'm sat here bf ing my almost one year old dd. she is still such a baby that I can't possibly imagine why pp think me feeding her is wrong in any way.

I bf my first till she was 20 months. (she weaned herself when I was five months pregnant with my youngest).

No idea how long I'll feed this dd. as long as she and I want to.

Absolute bollocks to the suggestion that people feed for their own sake rather than child. No way to force an unwilling toddler/child to breastfeed. Heck, there's virtually no way to force my toddler to do i anything!!

I personally don't fancy the idea of my child lifting my top and helping themselves. But that's where nursing manners come in. And very much each to their own.

I continue to be shocked by the prejudice shown towards breastfeeding overall and particular towards breastfeeding any child older than teeny baby

bubblegum yep...well, only 3 or 4 steps at 6 months but all over the place now 7.5, but still pisses me off that walking can be considered the stopping bf point because of it!

It actually makes me feel really awful to breastfeed in public when I gather the courage to do it as everyone assumes DS is older than he is and I can see the disgust on their faces....all because of this media driven crap :-(

whathellcall Sun 10-Feb-13 19:26:18

grin at bm not being necessary once child is eating a full and varied diet. That would be never then for my ds1, at 2yrs it took him 3 days to taste a smartie ffs. <longs for the days of ebf>

Antipag Sun 10-Feb-13 19:26:36

At the end of the day, I don't care what age other people BF till, or even if they BF, but I do care if they have an opinion about ME deciding to EBF.

Startail Sun 10-Feb-13 19:30:18

I wish people would learn to read!

DD2 BF until she was 9, I'm not always explicit because she's a very socially astute child and she doesn't like me saying anything.

It was her decision not mine not to feed in public from about 2.
I wouldn't have been in the least embarrassed, but it does get difficult to feed except in bed or on a sofa, toddler legs reach a surprisingly long way.

She is now in year 7 and practicing teenage attitude for her and her big sister.

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 19:31:46

Oh and when she first started reception I sometimes brought her home in a pushchair as she was so tired and grumpy. 5yr olds aren't so grown up as people seem to want them to be. They'll spend most of their lives being grown up- I'm not going hurry them.

absolute sorry...I was breastfeeding wink

Ameybee Sun 10-Feb-13 19:34:53

Breast feeding a teenager is both ridiculous & wrong IMO! Their friends would think they were weird & I think at that age it is not a relationship they should be having with their mother. I have no problem with extended bf should people choose to do it however I don't wish to hear about it 24/7 like its a million times better than FF - its a choice like everything else!

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 19:37:14

It would take a brave woman to force her nipple into the toothy mouth of an unwilling child. Also some impressive wrestling moves I would imagine.

Antipag Sun 10-Feb-13 19:38:15

Ameybee the child in the article is actually only five years old. The teenager part is sensationalist BS from the journalism. If FF is what you choose then that is absolutely your right, but it is fact that BF is better.

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 19:39:23

Just read the article-I don't honestly imagine you'll find any breastfeeding teenagers out there anyway - it was just a headline grabbing statement that completely skewed the article and comments

Ameybee Sun 10-Feb-13 19:40:40

I agree BF is better for a baby - I breastfed both of mine but at 5 years I doubt very much there is a difference.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 19:42:57

'Media driven crap' is usually driven by the very women who BF older children. They are the ones featured in the articles/documentaries.

If you want to BF until your child is older then do it. That is YOUR choice. If you think that extended BF is ok then again.... That is YOUR opinion
Equally, accept that there are also people who don't think it is right blah blah blah for all the reasons already mentioned. So what! Deal with it and accept that there will be those who think it is weird/odd/wrong. Don't rip them to shreds and ridicule them because they don't agree with it.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 19:45:36

snow
And? Your point being?

Antipag Sun 10-Feb-13 19:46:09

Can I ask for those that don't like EBF, is it the actual feeding part you don't like? So if the milk were expressed and given in a cup you wouldn't disagree with that? Or do you feel like a child shouldn't be having breast milk at all past a certain age?

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 19:48:59

For me it is the actual feeding part. I watched a documentary a few years back. I tried to watch it with an open mind but I found it bizarre to say the least.

SirBoobAlot Sun 10-Feb-13 19:51:01

It always amuses me when you get the unavoidable ''It's all about the mother past X age'' comments. Yes. Because a sensible woman would certainly force her nipple into a mouth. Naturally. hmm

DS weaned himself in October, just before he turned three. I always wanted to get to a year. Then I learnt more. And things were going well. It would have been silly to stop when there was nothing but benefits for us both.

I would also breastfeed someone elses baby if I needed to. <shrugs> I don't see the big deal.

Antipag Sun 10-Feb-13 19:52:26

Absolute, I don't think it's a case of ripping them to shreds but I think if a person has an opinion then they should be prepared to stand by it and defend it in the face of opposition.

Not ridiculing....guess I'm taking out my anger, about being made to feel like I am doing something disgusting by feeding my baby, on you. You may not have personally stared at me while I feed my baby but you are representative of the people who do because of your views.

By media driven crap I mean the fact that the media pushes the image of breasts soley as sexual objects and in doing so causes this notion that you are weird if you use them for feeding a child.

Also, I doubt very much if this article was written the way a mother would have written it...

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 19:54:09

Funnily enough although I am a natural term breastfeeder myself, I do find it strange to watch others do it on screen. I have never seen extended breastfeeding in the flesh and I would feel it intrusive to watch.

When I saw a mother feed a 5/6 year old in a documentary, I saw a mother feeding a large who has just come over to sit on her lap and yes it did look almost unnatural.

When I feed my own daughter I'm feeding a child who is just one day older than yesterday so it seems totally natural- maybe that's it.

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 19:55:11

a large child

pigletmania Sun 10-Feb-13 19:55:33

Antipag it's not th milk but feeding from te breast part. For me is associated with babies and toddlers , seeing an older child feeding from the breast would not sit well with me, seeing a teenager would be shock

MummytoKatie Sun 10-Feb-13 19:57:26

The bit that surprised me the most is "and even she and her husband have tried it!!!"

Why is that shocking? You are producing this food - constantly. Sometimes it sprays everywhere. Sooner or later it is going to spray on your hand. Of course you try it!

Seriously though - for those that ask about the benefits? How many people have posted on here that all their 18 month old will eat is green jelly? I see breast milk for toddlers as a bit like carrots. A good healthy food that is cheap and easy to include in a good balanced diet. Would they die without it? No. Is their diet better to include it? Yes. And the big difference is that dd never once refused breast milk. Or insisted it be cut into triangles. (Her current obsession. It's quite hard to make a carrot triangular.)

The other thing I remember about (fairly but not overly - we stopped at 2.3) extended breastfeeding was the time when my mum dropped a glass when dd was 18 months. Suddenly realised that dd's ear was covered in blood. If anyone else has a way they can immediately comfort a child in that situation so that they will keep still enough for dh to clean the blood away, examine the cut and check for any glass still in it then I'd be interested to hear.

If that day is the only benefit we get from the 15 months of breastfeeding past 1 then that day is enough for me.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 19:58:27

I don't know why you would expect someone who was being told that they're disgusting/weird/odd to not defend themselves.

The length of breastfeeding (or whether it is done at all) should be a choice for the mother and child and it should not be judged. There's nothing wrong with breastfeeding past a certain age. There really isn't. If someone doesn't like it, that's OK- but don't think that just because it's your personal opinion that it won't be challenged by the person that's being judged. Opinions are not like some sacred thing that is untouchable.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 19:59:19

I have never said it was disgusting. I think that it taking it to far. In my opinion the women who do feature in these stories are perhaps not doing themselves any favours. It is almost as if they want to shock. I also don't get the use of the word 'proud' if they are trying to promote this type of BF as completely normal.
I don't know why I don't like it. I am only going on my feelings based on what I have seen/read.

Antipag Sun 10-Feb-13 20:04:15

I think that it is interesting that it is he act of feeding that people seem to find difficult to cope with. I genuinely believe that this comes from the type of media distortion that snow talks about. I think it's so pervasive that people don't even realise that they have taken on the opinion that breasts are mainly sexual in function.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 10-Feb-13 20:07:56

Antipag
Maybe so.
But it is perhaps inevitable that society as a whole does take on this view.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 20:08:29

No, you have never said it's disgusting but plenty of people do- I hear it a lot. You did say that you hated seeing walking/talking children being breastfed- can you see why that might upset someone who is BF a toddler or older child?

That's OK to base it on your feelings- gut reactions are hard to change. Maybe if you read a bit more or talked to extended breastfeeders then your feelings might change. Maybe you've seen or heard something at a young age that's made you feel like this. Our culture is very against extended breastfeeding and it's hard to break away from that thinking.

And no, it's not normal for our culture but it is biologically normal. A baby won't die if they are weaned early or never given breastmilk but that doesn't mean that it stops having benefits at a certain age or that it shouldn't happen. It's probably more common than you think to BF to age 4 or 5 or older but so many people keep it secret- you can probably guess why.

ThingsThatGoBumpInTheNight Sun 10-Feb-13 20:09:38

Not read the article but going from experience with DS2 ebf till he was nearly 4 and he pretty much tailed off on his own but now and again he likes to grab and cuddle me while saying 'I mess wiv you boobies' i don't have a problem with what any parent or child does that is right for them, for DS2 i don't think it was about the milk it was about the closeness and comfort ect ect

They probably just need some money and if they can tell their story (which is completely normal to them) and a paper wants to pay them for it then they go ahead and tell it. Maybe they want to try and change public opinion so they have an easier time feeding...the story before editing would have been very different yo the printed version.. It's the journos that spin it...

Breastfeeding is hard...in the face of criticism and dirty looks it becomes even harder...I will use the word 'proud' if I manage to do it for as long as my baby wants to

BertieBotts Sun 10-Feb-13 20:14:47

The losing of the latch is related to adult teeth coming through and so I suspect very much that the range is a lot wider than 6-7 years - but I'm finding that although DS has lost his latch (at 4) he wants to continue occasionally. He will only ever "feed" for a few seconds and I doubt very much that he's getting anything, perhaps tiny tiny drops. Anyway the incidences of asking are getting further and further apart and he just accepts it if I say no now, so it won't continue for much longer.

I'm not particularly proud, no more than I am proud of the fact that he now uses a toilet rather than nappies or talks in sentences rather than a smattering of words and gestures - I do think it's a normal stage of development and I think it's sad that so many people think that "letting" a child feed until their natural end point is somehow wrong or even abusive.

Antipag Sun 10-Feb-13 20:24:52

Absolute, I don't know that I think it is inevitable but I do think it is something that at this stage is very difficult to fight against. There are many perceptions and viewpoints we all pick up in our lives from influences we don't even realise are there. Unless the facts have changed recently, last I checked the worldwide average age for breast feeding was 4, it is very much a western culture issue, and I think as a woman in that culture who does EBF it can often feel like a constant battle against prejudice.

MummytoKatie Sun 10-Feb-13 20:27:48

Out of interest has anyone managed to carry on bf beyond getting adult teeth. We stopped at 2.3 so it was never an issue but I can't see how it would work. (In my family we have definite "bunny teeth".)

Then again, before dd got her baby teeth I couldn't see how you could bf a child with baby teeth but then she got them and we just carried on......

Each to their own, i haven't bf past 6 months so have no experiance of extended bf.

I personally can't see myself bf past 3 years but that's just how I feel. Ds2 is 9 and I can't imagen bf him now.

I think she was stupid to even bring up feeding a teenager, people are bound to comment on that as so many people seem to dislike the idea of bf past toddler age

However ds4 is only 1 week old and I'm hoping to get to a year. Who knows how long I'll carry on after that.

Softlysoftly Sun 10-Feb-13 20:35:47

Tube TUBE grin

OxfordBags Sun 10-Feb-13 20:47:48

I think one of the frustrating things about how many people find EBF unsavoury, or whatever word they would choose, and then talk about their opinion vs EBFers' opinions, is that it is a scientifically proven FACT that EBF is healthy, moreover healthier than not doing. It can be very frustrating to be told that your belief in EBF is mere opinion, when you are expressing truths and facts, not subjective viewpoints. Disliking EBF is opinion. EBF being beneficial for a child (as well as all the wonderful bonding and comfort it offers) is fact.

Breastmilk is not always the same, like cow's milk, for example, it changes and evolves with the developmental stage of the child, eg it gets less fatty as time goes on. It is the most complex foodsource around and uniquely adaptable. It's pretty amazing stuff and it is a LIE - not opinion - a lie to say that children stop needing it after 6 months or maybe a year.

It's also culturally factual that EBF is entirely natural, as the majority of the world's population EBF. I read a brilliant article online recently about a company's failure to sell pushchairs in Nigeria, as the custom is to carry your infant on your back. Indeed, women were complaining about them being on sale at all, and the article ended with a wonderful quote from the leader of a mother's group complaining about having Western ideas of motherhood foisted upon them. She ended by saying "Next thing you know they'll be suggesting even more ridiculous ideas like stopping us breastfeeding in public!".

FadBook Sun 10-Feb-13 20:57:03

Can I ask the EBF'ers (those beyond 12 months) if you still feed in public?

DD is 18 months, still BF, and I find myself avoiding public feeding if I can (ie distraction, water, snack). But the other week I used bf for the first time to calm her down (almighty toddler tantrum as we left the park). My motherly instinct must have kicked in as I couldn't give too hoots what anyone thought or saw, as my priority was calming dd down (which worked immediately)

I also feed at the BF cafe I volunteer at (if she 'asks') as other mums, new ones in particular see it as 'normal' then. That's how I came to feed beyond 12 months because the cafe I went to had EBF'ers there and I asked questions and learnt more about the benefits and reasons to continue beyond 12 months. I'd like to think I'm 'paying it forward' and influence even 1 mum to choose to feed beyond the normal 6 months.

BimbaBirba Sun 10-Feb-13 20:57:13

My DS is only 12 months old and I'm already starting to get comments or looks or sneers from people about the fact that he's still breastfeeding. WTF? He's a baby and I'm his mum regardless of his age. What's weird about that? It's not like something happens at 6 months or 1 year or later (I guess) which suddenly makes breastfeeding feel "weird" or "wrong" to the mother or the baby. Why is it so difficult for people to understand that at 12 months my DS feeding from me doesn't feel any different from when he was a newborn?
I'm already dreading the comments and looks that will come in the following months.
Honestly people who think it's weird to breastfeed an older child only think so because they have never done it themselves for this long. Otherwise they would get it.

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 20:58:16

oxford do you have any children? As i see you never answered the question on the other thread and just jumped on to another child related thread. Do tell as intrigued now grin

Great quote oxford it seems we have a lot to learn from other cultures, if only we would listen!

TotallyKerplunked Sun 10-Feb-13 21:13:14

DS is still BF at 18 months, no its not something I intended in fact I was so focused on getting it started that I never thought that far ahead. I dont do it for me, I would much rather he stopped but I will carry on as long as he wants it and I have found it useful. Recently DS has been very ill and I was assured by my Dr and HV that the reason he didn't end up in hospital was due to the BF, and of course its a great tantrum soother/bedtime inducer.

Unfortunately despite the support of the Dr/HV/WHO guidlines I have had "bitty" comments from PIL which I find extremly sad. Whatever works for you is what you should do, I dont criticise PIL/anybodys decision to FF.

If the woman in the article wants to continue til her DC is a teenager, good luck but I cant see her DC wanting to feed that long!

MrsDimples Sun 10-Feb-13 21:16:54

The immunity properties of breast milk are increased in concentration feeding older babies / children. A child's immune system isn't fully developed til 5, so there are benefits to breast feeding beyond 6 months / a year / whatever other silly marker.

I'm still feeding my 3.5 year old & will continual for as long as she wants.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 21:18:43

Fadbook I still BF both my DDs in public (not at the same time, DD2 pokes DD1 in the eye too much). DD1 is 4yo, DD2 will be 2yo in a couple of weeks. DD1 doesn't ask much when we're out unless she is hurt or scared. DD2 doesn't usually either, she's much less into it than DD1.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 10-Feb-13 21:20:05

DS is 20 months and I still feed in public but Im extremely aware of it. Only because I know others might hmm at it.

TotallyKerplunked Sun 10-Feb-13 21:21:29

FADBOOK - yes I do occasionally BF in public still if DS really needs me to(most recently on a packed train after x-mas shopping), I cant say I noticed anyones reactions tbh but then again he had been shouting "booby" so i'm sure they were glad of the peace!

slatternlymother Sun 10-Feb-13 21:21:49

To the ladies that bf beyond 1 year; did you get much more than a 'disapproving look'?

Do you think it's possible that because it's still not the cultural norm, that you misinterpreted these people? Perhaps they were looking at you in admiration?

OxfordBags Sun 10-Feb-13 21:24:04

Allwaysthebaddie, my first comment on this thread was about my son. I read lots of threads on MN and post on a few, I hardly 'jump' between specific ones with an agenda hmm

BimbaBirba Sun 10-Feb-13 21:27:12

Erm, no. I wish it was admiration. It was more like a blunt "why are you still doing that" (plus disgusted face).

TotallyKerplunked Sun 10-Feb-13 21:27:39

Any looks I have had seem to be embarresment or curriosity, the only negative opinions come from PIL and they haven't ever seen me BF!

PrettyKitty1986 Sun 10-Feb-13 21:27:54

Personally I find the thought a bit icky...but as long as the woman bf doesn't feel so wonderful about it that she has to make a huge point and practically flap her baps in people's faces in public (which to be fair is not the exclusive territory of the extended breast feeders anyway) then I couldn't really care less if people continue to feed into adulthood seeing as it doesn't affect me.

Branleuse Sun 10-Feb-13 21:30:25

i think its completely normal and know many people that did /do, although i got fed up with it each time around the 6mth mark

BimbaBirba Sun 10-Feb-13 21:31:21

What a ridiculous post prettykitty

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 21:32:59

bertie are you breast feeding any other chidren? Have you kept your milk up? As if he now feeds very infrequently and you doubt he is even getting any, why would you let him try? If he is having no dietry benifit out of it why are you letting him continue?

Only if it is due to him feeling close to you, im sure there are ways that a four year old can do that with out suckling on a dry breast.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 21:33:02

I find that most people are just curious- at least that's how I interpret most of the questions I get I have the hide of a rhino - but I have had people tell me that I'm mad and recently my grannie told me (within earshot of 4yo DD1) that I should stop because it's bad for her. Another elderly relative also voiced her concerns via my DM. I shrugged it off but I don't like people saying things in front of or directly to DD1, that's not fair on her.

I think people tend to be more critical online, but that's true of most things.

slatternlymother Sun 10-Feb-13 21:35:00

See, bimba and totally I think I'd be genuinely curious. I've never met anyone who's done it, and I'd want to ask questions and stuff. Obviously that's not acceptable. But my look of 'oooooh, look at that! Wow!' Would probably be misinterpreted as disgust/prying sad

I used to think it was weird and icky or whatever. Then I became a mum myself. Whilst we didn't bf as it didn't work out and we had no support (not through lack of begging midwives for help; they were too busy to help us hmm sad), because DS was a sicky baby and didnt move onto cows milk until he was nearly 2; I'm not sure if we'd have stopped bf necessarily. Perhaps I'd not have put him to the breast the whole time, but an expressed cup of milk? Well, why not? But then, it never happened so I can't be sure. Anyhow, now that I have a toddler of my own, I can see how you could just carry on.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 21:43:41

I think it depends how you ask. If you said something like "I'm curious, mind if I ask a few questions?" then they'd probably be happy to talk to you. If you jumped straight in with "how long are you planning to do that?" then it could be taken the wrong way.

PrettyKitty1986 Sun 10-Feb-13 21:45:35

Why's that bimba?

Stixswhichtwizzle Sun 10-Feb-13 21:53:05

Before having my DD I genuinely believed (no real experience of BF) that BF past 6 months was 'unnecessary'. When pregnant and in the v v early newborn stage 6 months remained a goal but now we're nearing that there's no way she's ready to stop!! I cant imagine feeding her when she's 3 but I could imagine reaching the stage we're at now. We'll take it as it comes.

Nothing wrong with extended BF but not sure I could wet nurse. The live I feel for DD in those wee hours whilst BF is so strong. I can't imagine BF a baby that isn't mine nor would I use a wet nurse. A milk bank maybe especially if she'd been prem etc

Stixswhichtwizzle Sun 10-Feb-13 21:53:46

couldn't imagine

slatternlymother Sun 10-Feb-13 21:54:01

eau good grief, no I'd never dream of asking questions. Tis rather rude and probing, but I'm just saying that perhaps when you're doing something that's perceived to be 'wrong' by some members of society, perhaps you could misinterpret the looks of onlookers?

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 21:55:26

oxford just being nosey thats all!

Sort of get what kitty says.. I totally wholey endorse bf, the benifits to mum and child are unlimited, I never breastfed out in public but some of my friends did, very discretly.

For me EBF till 4,5,6,7 + is too much but each to there own.

shallweshop Sun 10-Feb-13 21:57:07

I think breastfeeding a child who is walking, talking and eating a good, varied diet is completely unnecessary and not what nature intended. We are supposed to teach our children how to live as confident, independent individuals and, no matter how much they enjoy some things - breast, dummy, nappies, sleeping in your bed etc, we teach them how to let go, grow up and move on to the next stage. I think in a lot of cases, extended breastfeeding is more the mother enjoying it and not wanting to let go.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 22:02:24

slatternly I don't know, I've never really noticed anyone looking TBH. I think most people don't notice or it doesn't occur to them that you might be BF an older child. I see what you are saying though, I think some people can be more sensitive than others. That's true of any parenting choice though, I've heard of FF mums who think they are being judged for giving a bottle. I don't think it's exclusive to breastfeeding.

shallweshop grin <snort> at 'not what nature intended'. It is exactly what nature intended. Maybe read the thread before commenting? All of your points have already been addressed and there is a link about the natural weaning age of humans that you might find interesting.

BertieBotts Sun 10-Feb-13 22:08:09

always No, I have no other children. I don't know enough about milk supply to know how the supply keeps up, but I know my friend who stopped at 2ish continued to produce milk for several months after stopping. Why do I let him, well, because he asked and it helped him to sleep on those occasions and I didn't see a reason to say no. If there is a reason to say no, which might be because I've already kissed him goodnight and gone to leave and I feel he's just stalling, or it might be because there are other people around or it might be that I just feel "uuuugh no I can't cope with that now" then I say no and he accepts that and it's fine.

BTW, since you ask, and I was curious, I have just squeezed to see if I produce milk and I do, although it appears to be very yellow, almost like colostrum! I had noticed recently that I had been getting the little crusty bits of milk you get in pregnancy when he hadn't fed for a few days - how very strange. Am definitely not pregnant BTW grin

BertieBotts Sun 10-Feb-13 22:09:24

I breastfed in public until DS was about 2 and I think maybe twice before he was 3. I ONCE had a man do a double take. That was it.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 10-Feb-13 22:10:01

Shamelessly marking place because I'm rather interested in this topic

thesnootyfox Sun 10-Feb-13 22:10:16

I don't like the idea of a wet nurse it feels far too intimate. I also hated watching anyone other than dh feed my babies with a bottle. I wasn't prepared for that emotion. It was very odd.

I think bfing or ffing a child of school age is unnecessary but each to their own. Bfing a child over the age of 8 (is that even possible?) is weird.

slatternlymother Sun 10-Feb-13 22:15:00

eau see I think ff mums are overly defensive. One mum I used to knock about with gave me the whole story about why she couldn't bf as she fed her dd for the first time in front of me. She was a bit panicked, as if I'd judge her. Who gives a shit?

Option A: BF. Option B: FF. As long as you don't choose Option C: not feeding at all; there isn't a problem.

shallweshop Sun 10-Feb-13 22:15:01

Eaurouge - I did read the thread and still decided to post as they are my own thoughts on the subject and felt they needed reiterating. What quite disturbed me was the post near the beginning about a child who is nearly in double figures who has only recently stopped breastfeeding - sorry but nothing can convince me that that is as nature intended!

BertieBotts Sun 10-Feb-13 22:17:57

I think 9 must be on the absolute upper end. As I said before I'm not convinced that ALL children's jaws change shape between 6 and 7, DS's seems to be already, so it makes sense that it might not happen until 8 or 9 for some children.

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 22:19:59

Its not extended feeding, JTS normal term feeding. It is the biological norm but sadly in our society its seen as pick and yuck.

Two if my boys bfed till over three years, ds2 was nearly four when he weaned. It wasn't something I planned, it just happened. With ds1i gave bfeeding a go and it worked, he stopped at 18mths, looking back I can now see it was a nursing strike Ashe was teething. The others just fed and it naturally came to an end. It didn't feel odd its just what happened and it is normal.

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 22:20:39

Its norma l term feeding, notjts?!!

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Sun 10-Feb-13 22:21:09

I don't dissaprove of EBF but I certainly don't get it. I don't see what is wrong with stopping BF at a more 'typical' time say 9 month or a year. I dont understand why a child can't get it's comfort and loving from hugs and similar. I stopped feeding two of my DC's when they were a year (which was the current recommended time) I had only been feeding them when they woke up and last thing at night. They had forgotten about it within a couple of days. It was a complete non issue. I think it is a baby'ish habit. I would also gently dissuade the use of dummies, bottles and thumb sucking.

the houseofmirth. The world health organisation do not recommend breastfeeding until DC are 2 years old. They recommend breastfeeding for up to 2 years. As can be seen here. hmm !!!

BertieBotts Sun 10-Feb-13 22:22:02

" up to two years or beyond."

BertieBotts Sun 10-Feb-13 22:23:38

Of course there is nothing wrong with stopping BF at 9 months or a year. But there is nothing wrong with carrying on either.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 10-Feb-13 22:24:17

'Not what nature intended' what an odd, ironic thing to say.

Its exactly what nature intended.

Thats actually quite funny.

'Not what nature intended' <shakes head>

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 22:25:45

They need it for at least a year and its recommended for two years or beyond. It has lots oif benefits and bfeeding didn't stop mine being independent, they still went to preschool etc, in fact ds2 was probably the most independent as a toddler and now at ten yes old is a well adjusted child with age appropriate independence. He can remember nursing and isn't bothered by that at all.

shallweshop Sun 10-Feb-13 22:25:51

Not what nature intended for a school age child - duh!!!

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 22:26:34

The WHO recommendation is to continue for 2 years, and then beyond if desired, so yes it is recommended for 2 years.

A recent study showed that longer periods of breastfeeding lower the risk of ovarian cancer for the mother and it was already known that it lowered the risk of breast cancer. Really, there are lots of benefits and no drawbacks. It's not for everyone but I'm a bit confused at why so many people seem so concerned about other women doing it.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 22:28:12

'Duh'?hmm Yes it is what nature intended. When you read the link that I posted earlier I will engage with you further.

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 22:28:37

But it is what nature intends, the immune system is not fully developed till five six yes and bfeeding supports that. And children have milk teeth, as they l,use these they lose the ability to latch, natural weaning.

shallweshop Sun 10-Feb-13 22:28:57

BF both of mine until a year old btw - agree that that is completely and utterly natural. Then they both discovered ..... food.

BreastmilkDoesAFabLatte Sun 10-Feb-13 22:29:56

I tend not to waste my ire on articles like this. I'm still BFing both mine at 3.3 and 20 months and they're both sufficiently articulate and self-aware to tell me that it's what they want and to tell me when they want it..

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Sun 10-Feb-13 22:31:50

This is the exact WHO recommendations. We keep getting different subtle variations.......

WHO recommends exclusive breastfeeding until a baby is six months old, and continued breastfeeding with the addition of nutritious complementary foods for up to two years or beyond

So, we should BF for 6 months then we can continue for up to two years or beyond.

They have chosen their words very carefully.

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 22:34:09

Yes mine had food as well, its recommended they have 12oz of milk a day after 12mths, so they had breast milk, human milk for a human baby! And bfeeding is not just about nutrition.

shallweshop Sun 10-Feb-13 22:34:17

5madthings - am sure nature intended a lot way back when we were first created but think the real need for many things just doesn't exist in the modern day.

Eaurouge - can think of nothing I would prefer less than to engage with you further on this subject. Goodnight.

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 22:35:59

What is a 'real need'??!

It has many benefits for mother and child, that makes it a need imo.

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 22:39:07

I wonder what stand a school would take if a mother wanted to go in at lunch time and nurse their 6/7 year old?

VikingLady Sun 10-Feb-13 22:40:14

EBF does have a health benefit for children - see here

And I bf DD (11m) in public, mostly when she asks or to calm her down if she is upset. Not more than that as she is very lanky and it is hard to accommodate her legs! I have had very few negative reactions, but am girding my loins and preparing responses for later!

I plan to feed her myself for as long as she wants it. It is mainly for her benefit, though I do enjoy it - and fail to see why that should be wrong! Why shouldn't I enjoy it? Am I only supposed to do the aspects of parenting that make me suffer? It is enjoyable for a reason - to ensure the continuation of the species. I like cuddling DD too - is that wrong, as I enjoy it and it feels nice?

I wouldn't mind being a paid wet-nurse. In fact, I don't think I can think of a better job.

I stopped breast feeding when my LO was 8 months - I would've been happy to continue until at least a year, but it didn't work out that way. Not sure I'd want to BF past the age of about 3 though, but that's personal preference. I do find BF kids aged 4 and above a bit odd.

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 22:40:54

The WHO recommends exclusive breastfeeding for 6 months- that is the baby gets breast milk and nothing else and then breastfeeding continues alongside complementary food up to the age of 2 years or beyond.

DefiniteMaybe Sun 10-Feb-13 22:44:26

Fadbook, my dd is 18 months and we still feed in public. Where and when she asks unless its not convenient. I can't say I've ever noticed anyone giving me looks not that I care anyway

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Sun 10-Feb-13 22:45:34

EauRouge. You are still not quoting the WHO recommendations correctly it says

.......for up to two years or beyond.

I bet they have choosen those words very carefully.

DefiniteMaybe Sun 10-Feb-13 22:45:53

And to all the people who think it has no nutritional benefit after x age, how many of you still drink udder milk?

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Sun 10-Feb-13 22:46:50

EauRouge

blush
Sorry, please ignore my last post as I had not read your post properly. Apologies....

fraktion Sun 10-Feb-13 22:49:17

I BF my 21month old in public on planes and trains. It's that to keep him calm/distract/deal with pressure changes or have him scream. Funnily enough most people when given the choice will take BFing. Very few people have ever commented.

I really don't think it's an issue for mothers because as someone else said upthread you're doing today what you did yesterday. For people who are seeing for the first time I understand it might be shocking.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 10-Feb-13 22:50:37

I dont drink cows milk, nothing dairy in me.

But why would that make a difference?

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 22:51:15

I have no idea what a school would say. Its a moot point as most chikdren happily go that long without a feed. Ds2 went to pre-school from 9-3 and didnt need fed as i wasnt there. He did feed once he got home etc. As he got older it waa just at bedtime. I know two chikdren who were still bfeeding once at school it was just part of bedtime routine snd wasnt mentioned otherwise. Both at high school now and normal pre-teen boys.

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 22:52:38

I think the point is that its seen as normal to drink cows milk, but abnormal to drink human milk!!!

EauRouge Sun 10-Feb-13 22:52:49

No worries smile it is a confusing way to word it, especially if you leave off the 'or beyond' bit which a lot of journos do, then it sounds as if you should quit at two years.

'Up to' makes it sound like a limit and that stopping before that is desirable.

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 22:53:40

I'm very interested in when they stop of their own accord, the whole "adult teeth" thing and everything.

DS is 6.7, he's lost his 2 lower front teeth only, and I was thinking earlier that I don't think he's bf for a week or so and I wonder whether he ever will again? It has tailed off very, very slowly over 18m or so, just the odd slurp in the morning but not every morning and bigger gaps between as time goes on. I haven't offered it for years now, except once or twice when he was poorly.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 10-Feb-13 22:54:13

Nope, ignore that. I read your question wrong.

Also, Ive never had a negative look or comment from anyone. Although Im not looking for them or expectinb it either. If Im feeding DS it feels as though it becomes just me and him. I just dont notice others. Although as hes getting older, Im becoming much more aware that I have to make effort to not notice people around us now.

Im pretty sure no one gives a shit though.

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 22:56:46

I've just read that back. I'm not asking whether he ever will again, obviously grin

That's something only he knows and I'm not going to ask him!

Maybe83 Sun 10-Feb-13 23:04:39

Sorry did I read that right as in your ds is 6 yrs 7 months and still being bf?

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:09:50

Yes.

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 23:09:56

Sounds like he is weaning naturally fred i assume you dont pop up to school at lunchtime to feed him? grin

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:10:25

Well, I don't know if I'd describe it as "being bf" exactly, but he does have the odd slurp.

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:11:38

5madthings, now there's an image! grin

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 23:13:11

Has odd image of a mum sticking boobs through the school fence...its a healthier lunch than many kids get... grin

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:14:03

God, yes, a variation on the jamie Oliver/McD's fiasco.

zcos Sun 10-Feb-13 23:17:55

startail if your still here re feeding your daughter until 9 was that just at home? what did your extended family think? and did she discuss with her friends ... I significantly remember feeling v grown up at 9 first love etc. I was thinking of stopping bf at 6mths to try for baby no. 2 but that's another story!

zcos Sun 10-Feb-13 23:19:13

you can breast feed the first through pregnancy of the second?

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 23:20:59

Yes you can zcos i did that twicevand then tandem fed ds2 abd ds3 and then ds3 and ds4. smile

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 23:26:32

Tandem feeding is a great experience if you can do it. Never could really pull that one off in public though as just too awkward to do and much less discreet. Thankfully by then DD1 didn't feed in public.

At home it can be a peacemaker for jealous siblings or a battleground when they try to pull each other's hair or poke eyes out.

I feel stuck in the middle sometimes and literally am.

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 23:27:21

Though of course you can tandem seperately, as most people seem to do.

zcos Sun 10-Feb-13 23:28:27

5madthings - please feel free not to respond but I didn't think it was possible ... and am interested in the practicalities ... did you always feed the youngest baby first ...what was the smallest age gap between them... did you feed them both at the same time.
my dd is 9 wks and I'm new to all this I don't want a big gap but thought I.would have to stop to TTC next lo and that hormones would change milk taste so dd would/ could reject it?

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 23:28:57

Lmao it would be classed as boobygate! Zcos I remember being nine too, the thought of bf at that age knocks me sick! I was hanging out at youth club, making dances up.

The odd slurp? Seriously how would u feel if he got to 8 then 9 then 10 just slurping away slowly creeping in to high school? At what point is enough is enough? Is there even milk there?! I find that its getting disturbing at that age.

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:29:18

I can't imagine it coming up in conversation with DS's friends.

I mean it's not exactly Power Rangers, is it?

5madthings Sun 10-Feb-13 23:31:11

zcos am in bed and posting from phone which is a pita but will come back tomorrow and answer smile

Goldmandra Sun 10-Feb-13 23:32:45

I find it really bizarre that so many people think it is weird and of no benefit to the child to BF them beyond a year or so but to feed those same children milk which is designed for calves is often seen as essential for healthy development until much later in childhood.

Do people really think that bovine milk is really better for human children than human milk? confused

zcos Sun 10-Feb-13 23:34:18

fredworms maybe it would if he was a little older and a girl like startails lo ... probably sounds sexist but I believe that there are studies that woman talk more and on a larger range of subjects.
I think I would be worried if my lo did discuss the potential for bullying?
again I would ask whether your extended family know or comment on it.
I am assuming you also have supportive partner?

zcos Sun 10-Feb-13 23:35:35

5madthings I look forward to hearing more assumed your phone is not a pita though? wink

Maybe83 Sun 10-Feb-13 23:39:36

I'm truly shocked your ds could realistically start puberty in a yrs time my child did. Children are suppose to progress and develop I wouldn't allow my dd a bottle or a dummy at nearly 7 both used for comfort also so I don't see continuing to allow bf at that age any different to that.

Greensleeves Sun 10-Feb-13 23:40:08

I read threads like this and wish my babies were little again so I could do everything the way I felt I wanted to, rather than just following my mother's instructions because I didn't KNOW any other women and hadn't found MN sad

If I could go back I would have slowed the fuck down on everything. Breastfeeding would have gone on as long as my children wanted it to. Ditto co-sleeping. And I wouldn't have all the guilt over toilet-training late and cuddling to sleep etc because I would know that actually, there was nothing wrong with following my instincts and giving my sons what they needed.

Would also like to compliment the bfing mothers on this thread who have responded to some really insulting posts with calm good humour and plenty of information.

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 23:43:11

If u don't feel your son would discuss it with his friends maybe he feels its not right? Which is an issue.

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 23:45:02

Greensleeves Don't beat yourself up. Sounds like you were a great mum lacking the support you needed.

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:45:31

Yes, you might be right there zcos, and I'm getting flippant 'cos it's late and I'm tired smile. Regarding the bullying, DS developed a unique name for it based on his earliest baby speech and if he did mention it I can't imagine anyone would have the faintest idea what he's on about, adult or child. You have a valid point with the boy/girl thing though, I really don't think him and his friends talk about much beyond superheroes etc

No-one knows outside of our immediate family, as far as I'm aware. As he got older it became more private naturally, iyswim. Just a cuddle at bedtime and sometimes in the morning, and he never talks about it to me or anyone else. I don't think he thinks twice about it, just takes it utterly for granted.

DH is supportive, yes. Anything for a quiet life! We also both believe, like Startail, that there is a lot of pressure to grow up too quickly in all kinds of ways.

Greensleeves Sun 10-Feb-13 23:45:32

oh fgs little boys ALL have elements of their life they don't discuss with their friends, or at least some of their friends. My 10y still has a ritual for cuddles and kisses - exact number and location of kisses - without which he cannot bear to go to bed! He calls me mummy and mama which he would probably NOT do at football practice. It's called a loving intimate relationship. Don't you have a private life? Why shouldn't a child?

Goldmandra Sun 10-Feb-13 23:45:43

If u don't feel your son would discuss it with his friends maybe he feels its not right? Which is an issue.

There are plenty of aspects of a child's life he might not want to discuss with his friends at this age. He might have a comfort object for sleeping or still want to twiddle his mum's hair when he's having a cuddle. That doesn't make them wrong.

Greensleeves Sun 10-Feb-13 23:45:59

thanks zappo x

Zappo Sun 10-Feb-13 23:46:39

"If u don't feel your son would discuss it with his friends maybe he feels its not right? Which is an issue"

Not everything we do in private should be up for discussing in public surely.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 10-Feb-13 23:47:03

Maybe, a bottle and a dummy are not natural. No wonder you took them away, they arent supposed to be. In theory.

Breastfeeding, and thumb sucking are natural. My 6 year old still sucks his thumb, I genuinely see that as no different from Fred feeding her 6yo.

thezebrawearspurple Sun 10-Feb-13 23:48:20

I've never met a man who's not repulsed by the thought of having a memory of sucking mommys boobs. Can't say it's a memory I'd want either. If people truly believed there were health benefits with breastmilk for four/five/six year olds, they could stick it in a cup and give it to them like anything else. They want them sucking on the boob though, that's creepy.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 10-Feb-13 23:48:54

That was suppposed to say arent supposed to 'be'.

However that is absolutely not a dig at ff. rather just a response to those saying its not natural.

Thats still making me chuckle. Not natural. Yet we blink none at powdered cows milk.

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:49:19

Absolutely Greensleeves. He's also pretty discreet about his penchant for all things Thomas (the train) because apparently amongst his peers that's "babyish".

Greensleeves Sun 10-Feb-13 23:50:04

and my 8yo very tuff "I am a dude" ds2 still likes to clmber on my lap and ask me to do "this is the way the ladies ride"! He would die of embarrassment if I grabbed him and started doing it during his judo grading or something

that doesn't mean he thinks it's wrong - it clearly isn't. It's just private, to our family.

Goldmandra Sun 10-Feb-13 23:50:07

hey want them sucking on the boob though, that's creepy.

But boobs aren't actually designed to be sex toys. They are designed to dispense milk! Why is using them for their intended function creepy?

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:51:46

"Creepy" grin

If he has weaned I wonder whether he'd be prepared to resume, just for Halloween?

Greensleeves Sun 10-Feb-13 23:53:44

I think finding bfing creepy is.... creepy. Are you the same people who think a man shouldn't change a toddler's wet pants at nursery?

Ad it has been explained over and over again - not that it should need explaining - that you cannot force a child to breastfeed. So even if you wanted a child "sucking on the boob" hmm against his/her will, you wouldn't get far.

fluffypillow Sun 10-Feb-13 23:54:32

People get so hysterical about ebf .

I fed my first son until he was only 3 months (bad advice from midwife led to milk drying up)
Second son fed until he was 9 months (stopped because of pressure from others....all people wanted to know was 'when are you going to stop doing that', like it was something dirty if you weren't trying to get your baby off the breast by 6 months!)
Now, my DD, who is 2.1 is still feeding, and I am thrilled about it! She usually only feeds about twice a day now, but she gets so much comfort from it. I always say it on these threads, but IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FOOD!! There is so much more to breastfeeding than that. It gives her comfort, reassurance, security, and an instant feeling of 'I am safe and loved'....it's wonderful, and so special. Why do people feel the need to belittle bfing, it's just ignorant imo.

I think alot of people look on it like one day you're suddenly feeding an older child, but when you've fed that child every day since they were born, there is nothing weird about it, It's so natural, for mother and child. I don't get why people are so odd about it.

I can't see me feeding my DD until she is over 3yrs, but that will be my choice, and I don't judge people who continue for longer.

Greensleeves Sun 10-Feb-13 23:55:41

actually sweeping ds2 up for a round of "this is the way the ladies ride" during his judo grading would make a fabulous threat when I lecture him about bringing his bloody coat home from school tomorrow <evil mother>

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:57:31

I've never met a man who's not repulsed by the thought of having a memory of sucking mommys boobs. D'you ask this question of lots of men then?

Now that is a bit creepy.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 23:57:38

There's nothing wrong with it, i couldn't give two hoots if you want to breastfeed half the towns teenagers TBH.

Anyone who has a problem, or feels 'disgusted' by a woman breastfeeding her child needs to grow up. Or preferably just fuck off to a dark cave and stay there so those of us with a functioning brain can get on with our lives without listening to the shit.

FredWorms Sun 10-Feb-13 23:58:42

Greensleeves...funny grin

fluffypillow Mon 11-Feb-13 00:00:18

Well said zebra . Agree grin

Goldmandra Mon 11-Feb-13 00:00:23

fluffy

I experiences the 'it's dirty' facial expressions before DD2's first birthday. It beggars belief!

Being able to BF to comfort her while her broken arm was examined and plastered aged 14 months was wonderful but when we saw a paediatrician a few weeks later he tried to tell me that I should stop (!) as it was of no benefit to her. Again it beggars belief.

I know people don't see mothers BFing everyday in our society as they should but I still find it amazing that so many see it as shocking, dirty, wrong and even abuse. I hope things change for the next generation.

FredWorms Mon 11-Feb-13 00:03:50

I don't feel all that strongly about it, tbh.

It's just something we've ended up doing, and it's fine, and neither of us think about it much. I really don't believe I've talked about it at all until this thread.

FredWorms Mon 11-Feb-13 00:08:20

Interestingly, though, unlike some others I find the idea of tasting it myself repellant, but I love cow's milk. That's weird really, when you think it through.

And on that note I'm off to bed.

Midori1999 Mon 11-Feb-13 00:08:35

I can see why people feel the way they do with regard to negative feelings towards natural term BF. It may be biologically normal, but it is not the norm culturally in our society to even BF for a year generally, despite the WHO guidelines and I have a few friends who BF and weren't aware of that guidelines, the NHS don't really tend or mention it much either, I wonder if they think it will put people off?

I am nursing my 19 month old DD and if she feeds throughout this pregnancy I will hopefully tandem feed. However, although I sometimes enjoy BF her and am glad I can provide it's benefits, including comfort, if she self weaned during this pregnancy then I wouldn't really mind and I might even be a bit glad. On the other hand, if she doesn't then I'm happy to go to self weaning. I am also happy to and still do nurse her in public if and when she needs it and will continue for as long as she likes. I'm not really the shy type and the more people see or know of toddlers being BF, the more normal it will become.

fluffypillow Mon 11-Feb-13 00:09:51

goldmandra My GP told me to stop, as I had 'done 6 months' and it was of no benefit to her anymore sad . The attitudes to B'fing in this country are shocking, especially from alot of so called professionals who have no clue.

I am so pleased that my boys (15 and 10) are now totally comfortable around me b'fing. At first when I had her in the hospital, they ran out when I mentioned feeding her grin but after a couple of days they became fine with it, and now it's just a normal part of the day. They will even come up and kiss her when she is feeding etc.... I think this is great as hopefully they will be supportive and comfortable with the mothers of their future children b'fing.

Maybe83 Mon 11-Feb-13 00:12:57

Sorry I don't find it at all natural to feed a child in school a couple of years and getting closer to puberty than toddler age and my dd bottle and dummy were removed because she was growing up not because it was natural or not. She then comforted with a doll followed by a teddy to nothing now. Dizzyzebra I have a fully functioning brain and body thanks one that can form my own opinion it may be not one you agree with but then I don't agree with yours doesn't mean I d imply your a dimwit! I do feel disgusted at the thoughts of feeding either of my children it isn't something I wish to experience as explained above and yep all grown up to! I not disgusted about other mothers bf if they choose to do but it doesnt mean i would agree with still bf a near 7 yr old.

ResponsibleAdult Mon 11-Feb-13 00:13:37

My husband regularly anaesthetises children 4-9 yrs old who have a mouth full of rotten teeth from breast feeding. Breast milk is v high in sugar and fat, entirely appropriate for young babies and little eeny weeny kids.
EBF is appropriate in hunter gatherers societies with limited access to clean water and fresh food, not appropriate for 21st century uk. By all means carry on post 3yrs old. But be clear it is not for any nutritional advantage.
FYI, bf both my children, but by 1yrs old I would be needing to lactate like a heifer, so thought best to look for alternative sources of food

Goldmandra Mon 11-Feb-13 00:18:28

* They will even come up and kiss her when she is feeding etc.... I think this is great as hopefully they will be supportive and comfortable with the mothers of their future children b'fing.*

Natural, lovely and exactly as it should be. I just wish that more children were growing up with this as part of their everyday lives.

The attitudes I came across while BFing sometimes shocked and dismayed me, particularly when I was slated for feeding 4mth old DD in a restaurantby an otherwise intelligent and pleasant family member, but nothing blew me away like the appalling attitudes of some male medical professionals.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 11-Feb-13 00:18:52

Surely the children have rotten teeth due to bad dental hygiene and care.

Goldmandra Mon 11-Feb-13 00:20:27

Surely the children have rotten teeth due to bad dental hygiene and care.

Why?

Goldmandra Mon 11-Feb-13 00:21:25

Doh! I see what you mean now Sockreturningpixie! Sorry

Midori1999 Mon 11-Feb-13 00:23:14

responsibleadult breast milk may be high in sugar, but it also contains antibodies and lactoferrin, which kill the bacteria that cause tooth decay. Also, because of the way breastfeeding works, breast milk does not pool in the mouth near the teeth in the same way milk from a bottle, for example, would. In any case, how could your husband know the cause of tooth decay in children? confused

As for having to 'lactate like a heifer' I don't know about that, I manage to breast feed my DD from only one breast and have do me for almost a year now. Of course, like other toddlers, she's been on solids for some time now, it's now her sole source of nutrition. hmm

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 11-Feb-13 00:23:53

Because that is pretty much accepted as the biggest cause of bad tooth decay, tooth decay turns into a mouth full of rotten teeth if it is not treated appropriately

Goldmandra Mon 11-Feb-13 00:24:26

My husband regularly anaesthetises children 4-9 yrs old who have a mouth full of rotten teeth from breast feeding.

How on earth could he possibly know this is as a result of BFing, not sweet drinks, snacks and treats, lack of brushing, etc?

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 11-Feb-13 00:24:30

grin x posted

Softlysoftly Mon 11-Feb-13 00:25:00

I feel a bit ew at feeding past 4.

But then I never thought I'd bf and this thread has made me realise that as dd2 comes up to 9 months past that's consisted ebf???

So I guess I just broke my own ew factor, and in public I never even realised, seriously confused.

Goldmandra Mon 11-Feb-13 00:26:27

FYI, bf both my children, but by 1yrs old I would be needing to lactate like a heifer, so thought best to look for alternative sources of food

You didn't introduce solids until after one year?

AboutThyme Mon 11-Feb-13 01:01:43

I am late to this thread I admit but I do find it strange to wonder why anybody cares? I didn't breastfeed. Not because I couldn't or triedn and then failed, nope, I didn't want to. End of.

I will support any woman who wants to breastfeed her child for as long as she and the child see fit. Why is it anyone elses business? I didn't. My choice. Lots of women do, and they do it for the period of time they see fit. All power to them. Surely the conversation ends there?

Mosman Mon 11-Feb-13 01:16:22

I disagree. I think when a child gets to five years old its nothing to do with the child's needs and all about a selfish mother who is probably insecure and feels she needs to be needed far too much

I fucking hate breast feeding, my poor boobs probably my best feature have been ruined by it, I would love love to give up but he needs it for comfort, nothing else is the same so whilst he needs it he shall have it.

As for rotten teeth, I have never heard that from a dentist and it really doesn't reconcile with the facts that the highest rates of tooth decay come from area's with the lowest rates of breast feeding, Birkenhead/Glasgow etc should be an NCT's dream come true but quite simply isn't so I think maybe the coke from 6 months old along with ribeana and fruit shoots fruit juice might have rather more to do with it.

Mosman grin

WifeofPie Mon 11-Feb-13 01:26:00

I can't believe this thread shock. How can anyone, in any way, justify breast feeding a NINE year old? Ewwwww.... No words. I have an eleven, eight and six year old (all of whom happily weaned at one to get on with other things). Truly disturbing. I'm not surprised you don't want to be overly vocal about it...

cantspel Mon 11-Feb-13 01:28:22

fluffypillow It is lovely that your children are comfortable around you breast feeding and will come up and kiss the baby whilst you do it but i doubt they would be so comfortable or free with their kisses if your baby was 9 years old.

TanteRose Mon 11-Feb-13 01:29:16

The logic of rotten teeth is flawed, surely

If a dentist is regularly (several times a week?) anaesthetising children with mouths full of rotten teeth, due to decay from extended breastfeeding, then surely that implies that there are legions of children in the UK being breastfed past the age of 2 or 3, which is very much not the case.
The proportion of children being breastfed past 6 months is TINY!

So extended breastfeeding can hardly be said to be a major cause of tooth decay in children, quite apart from the fact that it tends to protect the teeth

SandCastlesGoSquash Mon 11-Feb-13 01:38:34

EBF is completely natural, just not understood by some people in our society due to lack of information. I admittedly thought it was a bit weird until actually researching it, as I thought babies were "designed" to stop feeding at 1 year as this was all I had heard of.

I do feel slightly disgusted at the thought of my DD feeding off another woman though, especially as it's such an close bonding time, it just seems a bit wrong another woman doing that for your baby. Bodily fluids and all that. but I have nothing against other people doing it, just keep your boobs away from my DD grin

Kiwiinkits Mon 11-Feb-13 01:43:59

I think it's the extended BFing weirdies that give 'normal' breastfeeding of babies a bad name. When I say normal, I mean what most ordinary people do, which is feed their baby up to say 1, 1.5 or 2. Really, it's you lot that make young mothers and mothers without a family history of BFing take a look at it and say "no thanks, I don't want to end up like that weird woman".

Personally, I love BFing my babies. But I think BFing after say 1.5 years is just a prop really. It's unnecessarily babying. Sort of like having a dummy, or a bottle, or being carted about in a sling. Not a fan of any of those things for toddlers who have the emotional and physical ability to do very well without them.

Kiwiinkits Mon 11-Feb-13 01:44:45

And being a wet nurse. Sorry, that makes me sick. Viscerally disgusted.

Really, it's you lot that make young mothers and mothers without a family history of BFing take a look at it and say "no thanks, I don't want to end up like that weird woman"

No, it isn't. It's the Frothers like you.

And it's odd that another mother feeding a baby milk designed specifically for a human baby makes you "viscerally disgusted" yet the alternative, modified milk from another species, does not.

Saski Mon 11-Feb-13 07:33:42

Another one skeptical of the one who anesthetizes children with mouths full of rotten teeth because of EBF.

When you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra. It's candy/soda/poor dental care.

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 07:42:40

I agree kiwiinkits, for me bf is for babies and toddlers not something a 5,6,7 plus child should still be doing. They should be moving on from that, yes that is why we wean toddlers off dummies and bottles

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 07:45:12

Teir was someone I know of who did bf her child and believed in natural ter, weaning and so let the child decide fr themselves when to stop, this child was coming up to their 7 birthday and still was bf, she had to set a stop date and intervene to wean this child from the breast

BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 08:02:19

If EBF causes tooth decay then half of the world would have no teeth.

I think the evidence shows that breastmilk on clean teeth does no harm - it's breastmilk combined with other sugars which is harmful. But as it doesn't sit around in the mouth (like liquids from bottles can do) it's unlikely to do much harm at all.

gimmecakeandcandy Mon 11-Feb-13 08:09:23

Responsibleadult - what a load of rubbish - please don't post such inaccurate crap.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 08:09:40

The rotten teeth from Bfing is a lie and a myth. If BF tots have dental problems, it is because of other factors in their diet/lifestyle. Every study done on the topic shows that breastmilk does not cause decay. Shame on you for peddling such bullshit.

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 08:13:15

Bottles and dummies are not really comparable with breastfeeding. Bottles and dummies can cause problems with teeth whereas breastfeeding helps to aid proper jaw development and Bertie is right that breastmilk is not the cause of tooth decay (why would we have evolved to produce milk that rots our babies' teeth? That makes no sense).

Not sure what the point of your story is, piglet- some children take longer than others to wean. It's normal for children to reach milestones at different points and it's normal for parents to change their minds about their parenting choices.

How would people feel if I said (with evidence to back me up) that mothers should feed for 5,6,7 years? The word 'should' is horrible. The only 'should' that mothers need to do is make their own choice that suits them based on evidence and not pressure from others.

Rainbowinthesky Mon 11-Feb-13 08:14:24

Simply not true about decay. We were told this when dd had decay problems but found out years later it was due to acid reflux. Consultant patiently explained to us how it couldn't possibly be breast milk. Would have thought anaesthetist would have known this (shrugs).

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 08:14:29

Sorry, that should say 'with no evidence to back me up'.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 08:25:16

Oh we have the its sick and disgusting blah blah blah brigade... Erm.no iys normal term bfeeding but we are so.indocttinated by breast=sex culture that people cant seperate the two.

There is a great blog (has been.posted on mnet) about a mum who lived in mongolia for a while. All babies bfeed there and its normal to feed up to age seven+ in fact the longer a child feeds the better. They see bfeeding and bmilk.as amazing. Its worth reading.

My eldrr boys arent freaked out or repulsed by bfeeding, they see it as something normal babies and children do.

I find the name calling a bit sad tbh. If you dont like it then dont do it. If it works for another mum and child then whats it to.you? Its easy to.say its disgusting/sick etc over the internet. Would any of you say it in rl life to someone that was bfeeding? If you would then i am very glad i dont know you.

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 08:29:45

Can't find the original blog but here's a copy- Breastfeeding in the Land of Genghis Khan

<waits for inevitable 'ew' and 'we're not in Mongolia though' comments>

Tailtwister Mon 11-Feb-13 08:35:56

As always, these threads bring out high emotions. Those who dislike bf older babies/children of course are entitled to their opinion, but I wonder what the reaction would be if I said similar things about people who used bottles/dummies past the age of 1. No doubt there would be outrage!

The fact is that unless you have actually done extended bf you really don't know what you're talking about. You may dislike seeing it, but you certainly are in no way close to understanding it. It's a completely natural process and evolves and changes as the baby/child gets older. It's about far more than nutrition, has very little to do with what the mother does or doesn't want and is a really lovely thing to do for your child (if that's what you choose). Everyone has their cut off point, ime it's different for each mother and each child. I imagine it would be unlikely I would be still feeding a teenage child for instance. I bf DS1 until just over 3 and DS2 is still bf at 2.5. When he will stop is anyone's guess.

People shouldn't feel the need to justify how they feed and nurture their own children (and yes, bf is about both those things, not just nutrition). There are loads of myths, spread by the ignorant and the plain nasty.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 08:37:15

Thanks eau i love that. It really shows the cultural/societal.difference in attitudes towards bfeeding!

Goldmandra Mon 11-Feb-13 08:37:58

kiwiinkits is it unnecessary babying to feed the same children milk made for a cow?

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 08:42:28

Well eau we are all entitled to our opinion and for me it's not right. I don't see why an older chid needs to be bf its like babying them and not wanting them to grw up, yes parents have to sometimes intervene to guilde their chidren forward

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 08:45:20

I would never say or pass commebpnt ypto a mother if I saw it but I would privately think to myself. There was an article a while ago in a woman's weekly of a mother still bf her 13 year old boy, and a picture of him accompanying it. Obviously he has not self weaned and really ought to. I was shock seeing that

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 08:48:36

Yes, we are entitled to our opinions but when you are saying that other parents are doing something wrong (even though it's not based on any evidence) and that they should stop you surely must expect that opinion to be challenged? If you don't want to breastfeed a 5, 6 or 7 yo then that's fine.

It's not physically possible for a 13 yo to breastfeed, I call bullshit on Women's Weekly.

Zigzagwanderer Mon 11-Feb-13 08:50:53

As a mother that bf her toddler (and intend to carry on for as long as ds chooses), I can't help but feel disappointed when I read/hear other WOMEN say that extended bf is wrong or makes them feel sick.

Western society has it all wrong when it comes to what's actually "normal".

Also, I thought that biologically, mothers are programmed to feed their babies until about 4 years of age or when they lose their sucking reflex.

EasilyBored Mon 11-Feb-13 08:51:45

But it's only considered 'babying' because you think it's something only babies should do. I actually don't agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on breastfeeding. Sure, if you don't want to do it, then don't (hell, I gave up at 12 weeks so I'm hardly one to talk) but saying that is disgusts you and that it's not 'normal' is just wrong. It's only not considered 'normal' because we've had this breasts=sex=women's body are property idea shoved down our throats for generations now, and completely forgotten that breast feeding is actually the biological norm and breastfeeding well into toddlerhood and early childhood is actually very normal and natural too and not something to be gawped at. Maybe if you stopped clutching your pearls and saying how disgusting it is, and actually look at why you think that, we'd make some progress.

EasilyBored Mon 11-Feb-13 08:54:52

Women's weekly also featured the kind of crazy folk who breastfeed their dogs. So I'm going to take anything they publish with a handful of salt.

Zigzagwanderer Mon 11-Feb-13 08:58:41

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

I get all sorts of comments from family members because ds3 still has a bottle before bed at 22 months. He enjoys it and it obviously makes him happy. I don't have the heart to take it away from him yet, I'd feel the same if he was bf.

Saying that I think certain family members would feel the same if I was still bf him. I was having trouble with the newborn latching so gave him a cup feed, which the toddler decided he wanted to finish and I could tell my mum thought it was a little gross!

fromparistoberlin Mon 11-Feb-13 09:07:30

why are you reading Closer? Or rather read closer, but dont them complain after!!!

you realise their ABC profile is thick celeb obsessed divs dont you????

Its a bit like reading the comments on a EDL website, and them complaining people are racist

Zigzagwanderer Mon 11-Feb-13 09:07:41

NO food we give our babies/children is as good as breast milk, it's a fact, no matter how 'varied' the diet.
I wish people would get a clue.

Zigzagwanderer Mon 11-Feb-13 09:10:10

Also,
Breastfeeding and co sleeping creates emotional stability in children, which ultimately makes them more independent.
Why does a child need independence anyway?

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 09:12:38

Yes eau I agree Wth you, easily yes we are entitled to an opinion on bf its a democratic country, yes people will challenge our view whether it's extended bf or not agreeing with it. How boring it would be if everyone agreed with each other

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 09:13:37

Well AIBU would be a bit shit if everyone agreed with each other, that's for sure grin

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 09:14:22

Yes it would grin

Zigzagwanderer Mon 11-Feb-13 09:14:38

*more independent adults.

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 09:15:06

Seriously though, it would be nice to hear things like 'extended breastfeeding isn't for me, I don't like the idea of it' rather than 'extended breastfeeding is sick/wrong/abusive/disgusting etc etc'.

EasilyBored Mon 11-Feb-13 09:15:31

You can have your opinion, but that doesn't mean you aren't completely wrong.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 09:17:54

Zigzag
Many thanks for the kind appraisal of my character. Well done.
Luckily there are those on here who, while disagreeing with me have at least made the effort to engage rather than resorting to infantile name calling confused

EasilyBored Mon 11-Feb-13 09:21:13

Calling breastfeeding disgusting and gross and saying how uncomfortable you are with it is more infantile, surely? Akin to a bunh of squealing school girls being grossed out by a worm. Get. A. Grip.

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 09:26:57

Eau I don't think I've been nasty just said I personally don't agree with it, wouldn't be for me. Easily that is objective, it might not be sparing for you but for another oerson and culturally it's not normal

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 09:27:22

Meant wrong doh silly predictive text

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 09:28:32

Easilybored
If you have read the entire thread you will find I have not called it disgusting/ gross or said it makes me feel uncomfortable. As I have said I am expressing MY opinion on EBF. If you have difficulty accepting a different opinion then perhaps it is you who needs to 'get a grip'.

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 09:28:34

No easily that's your opinion, i admit some of the language on here is nasty

EasilyBored Mon 11-Feb-13 09:30:56

But there are no legitimate reasons for thinking that it's gross or disgusting. None.

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 09:31:19

Piglet, you did say that older children should be 'moving on'- this is not your call to make for other families. And no culturally it isn't normal but that doesn't mean that it's wrong for everyone. You weren't rude but this kind of comment chips away at the confidence of mothers who are just trying to do what they feel is the best thing for their family.

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 09:34:31

Maybe there's a misconception that women who breastfeed older children are militant, in-your-face lactivist types that are not affected by what anyone else thinks- we're just normal mothers, that's all.

pigletmania Mon 11-Feb-13 09:36:56

Easily you are putting words into my mouth nowhere have I said its gross or disgusting. I have only voiced my opinions on here but noway would I tell a mother URL my feelings. On a forum like this especially in Aibu you will expect differing opinions if a mother needed that kind of support breast or bottlefeeding section would be better!

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 09:38:11

Eau
I spent some time looking online re: comment you made about last night abiut sexualisation of breasts and EBF etc etc. There were a few interesting articles although they tended to focus on women as a whole rather than just boobs. Definitely a cultural thing. One interesting slant was the powerful influences/control that men have had on the sexualisation of women and it wasn't just taking about the obvious porn/page 3 etc etc.

Zigzagwanderer Mon 11-Feb-13 09:44:59

Yes Absolute, I'm sorry about that. I have reported myself. I was being harsh.

I do think you should consider how any bf woman would take your comments very personally, with the feeling sick when you see it etc.
Made me quite angry actually (hence the little outburst).

I shall leave this thread now.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 09:51:18

zigzag
I understand your angst but at no point have I said it makes me feel sick.

minouminou Mon 11-Feb-13 09:55:13

Been lurking avidly (if there is such a thing!) on here, and I'm delurking to thank Absolute for reading those links.
I was an extended bf-er...DS 2.5 yrs, DD almost 3. The way your bf-ing relationship evolves over time means it just fits into your daily life and you don't really notice or think about it.
You're not feeding a 2yo round the clock, like you are with a newborn; by the end if bf-ing both DC, it had tailed off to a morning and night feed, then an increasingly brief bedtime feed. Both decided for themselves when to stop, but as DS stopped a few weeks before DD was born, I think he was pushed rather than jumped!
I'd have been happy to tandem feed, though.

I think the feeling of not liking walking talking bf-ing comes from the sexualisation of boobs. People feel it's ok for an infant, as the infant doesn't know it's a breast, doesn't know about page 3 and so on. Cut to a child asking for a feed, we can see the child is aware of its surroundings, and its mother's body. It's aware it's a breast, and maybe people think that the child should be avoiding a SEXUAL part of its mum's body. However, bf-ing is the primary purpose of a breast, and even at two, three, four, is nothing but a comforting squishy source of milk! Most deffo NOT a devil's dumpling!!!

EauRouge Mon 11-Feb-13 10:19:48

absolute you are dead right. There is also a lot of pressure for women to give up breastfeeding early so that their husbands can 'have their breasts back'! As if they never even belonged to the woman hmm This is a really good blog post about breastfeeding as a feminist issue.

cantspel Mon 11-Feb-13 10:29:14

You can find a feminist with a view on everything from any side

French feminist Elisabeth Badinter argues that breastfeeding – along with natural labour, co-sleeping and giving up work – all amount to an ideal of motherhood that effectively subjugates a woman's professional, sexual, spousal, adult identity. "If 24 hours a day the woman is reduced to her role as a nursing animal,

fromparistoberlin Mon 11-Feb-13 10:37:41

dont listen to French feminists.........

cantspel Mon 11-Feb-13 10:44:02

ah but her views are just as valid as anyone else's.
They just dont match the feminist party line you want.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 10:49:50

cantspel
But ultimately we ARE animals.
Perhaps it has more to do with the ongoing perceived battle that women ' want to have it all' and it is inevitable that they have to/ are forced to make a choice as to what their priotities are as BF/EBF does not tend to fit in with being a working mum (god I hate that term) Could it be argued that it is the constraints placed on women by the working environment has meant that it is inevitable BF stops sooner rather than later so women who EBF are a minority. Because of this it is not seen as 'normal' or a common practice and as such generates a real polarisation of opinion.

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 11:02:07

I dont think there was ever a post about bf being disgusting???
I cannot see any benifit for EBF and for me that is Bf till after 4 at the max! I'm around these little people every day and they are not babies! They should be encouraged to explore the world around them and grow in to independant children. Thats whats nurture is a bout. My breasts are NOT here to be suckled on indefinatly! Thats just an excuse for mothers who can not bear there children growing up - by the way this is directed at mothers that do it 5,6,7,8+ before you all start screaming about the benifits of Breast milk.

Yep breast milk is full of wonderfull things but 5,6,7+ should not need it due to a healthy diet. Do these children still have a bottle, dummy for comfort?

What worries me is i have a feeling that some mothers dont even have milk left and are just letting there older 'off springs ' suckle on a dry breast for comfort...

I think there is going to a lot of weirdo MIL threads on here in a few years time...

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Mon 11-Feb-13 11:09:31

I wonder if any EBF's do so solely by expressing milk?

Is the 'suckling' comforting part more or less important than the nutrient part.

Softlysoftly Mon 11-Feb-13 11:09:53

Does noone else find "don't listen to French feminists" by fromparistoberlin amusing?

<<Feels she's not appreciating the gravity of the thread>>

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 11-Feb-13 11:11:18

Its a well know fact that you can produce milk for as long as you have a child feeding.

Well at least in the absence of any illness or hormone issues.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 11:12:00

Pg 10 there are comments about bfeeding wierdos and it being disgusting.

MrsHoarder Mon 11-Feb-13 11:16:07

cantspel: I bf DS, this doesn't reduce me to just a nursing mother. We have a feed every morning but on my university days he will happily have milk from a cup whilst I'm not there, I am not limited or defined purely by breastfeeding (and will be less so as he gets older and goes longer without milk).

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 11:17:45

Supply and demand whilst a child nurses the breasts will recieve tge signal to make milk.and now ebf will be wierdo mils...

You do realise children that bfeed past 4yrs are still independent, still go to school, sleepovers etc and everything else that their peers do.

Nutritionally bmilk is superior to cows milk and has immunw benefits. You
cannot force a child to bfeed.

Msmy children also suck their thumbs at bedtime or have a favourite comforter/soft toy all perfectly normal.

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 11:31:25

5mad ^ I not disgusted about other mothers bf if they choose to do but it doesnt mean i would agree with still bf a near 7 yr old. ^ is that the post? --i completely agree. Or was it the line before about her feeling disgusted at the thought of doing it herself? which is perfectly natural too. Lots of mothers choose not to do.
This thread is not about breast feeding -which a lot of lazy ebf posters keep hiding behind, Its about excessive breast feeding in to children that are nearly reaching puberty!

Breast milk drys up within a couple of weeks some posters have said that there older off springs havnt had any for a while, couple of months, i think but still enjoys the odd slurp. Or was that a wind up, i dont know? What the hell is the point in letting a child on a dry breast....[hmmm]

Yep indeed we are all animals at the end of the day so for those going down that route about our breast are designed solely for feeding, im SURE other species DO NOT let there odd springs suckle for years on end!

charitymum Mon 11-Feb-13 11:37:15

Bloody hell. Only skimmed this thread but alongside some really great and insightful evidenced posts from all sides of debate stunned at the bitter and personal attacks.

Sheesh people living in poverty; kids dying of neglect; women being abused-the 101 topics we should really be getting aggy about and here are women attacking other women for their feeding choices. Yey the sisterhood hey?

Unless I've missed it do fathers never play a role in deciding on feeding approaches (certainly my DP and I discussed all our choices for each of 4 DC) - or is it a case of she who has breasts gets to get beaten up whatever she decides whole daddy oblivious.

Really disappointed - personal attacks the end of useful discussion.

Ultimately though, the parent with the breasts gets the final say in breastfeeding.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 11:46:32

Breast milk doesn't dry up in a couple of weeks esp when you have been breeding for months/years. I bed for over nine years I can still squeeze milk out now having not fed for well over a year!

Animals let their offspring nurse until they are essentially years old yes in terms of development/size/weight etc actually yes. Again Google it.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 11:48:44

My dp and I chatted about it but we didn't plan on bfeeding as long as i did, it just happened that way and dp saw the benefits and was happy if I was happy. But ultimately yes its up to the mother as they are her breasts.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 11:49:05

I bfed not bed..

wreckedone Mon 11-Feb-13 11:49:18

Absoluteeightiesgirl, some babies walk at 9mo-surely you can't seriously be saying that the moment they start walking you wean them?! My lad is 20mo and still breastfed morning and evening(if he asks for it, which he nomally does). How is that any different from giving a nearly 2 year old a bottle of cow's milk morning and night?

BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 11:50:04

Sorry but it doesn't dry up after a couple of weeks, not after the early days. It can take months. Supply is not as fragile as we are led to believe...

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 11:51:17

Exactly Bertie in the early weeks it can do but once feeding is established it won't just dry up like that!

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 11:54:04

wrecked
Oh FFS read the rest of the thread. I really can't be arsed to keep re-posting the same comment over and over again

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 11:55:11

At what age would you go up to if they still kept going for a slurp? And please dont say ''till they wanted'' would like to know when XBF mothers feel enough id enough.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 11:57:05

I would just do what I did which was don't offer, don't refuse so yes as .long as they wanted and they would lose the ability to latch by about seven, sometimes a bit later.

minouminou Mon 11-Feb-13 11:57:13

It's nearly a year since DD bfed, and my right nork still produces small amounts. The left one's given up, though. Five years in total I bfed.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 11:59:32

I found that as well. My DD would only feed from my right boob. It got massive. My sister used to refer to it as my bionic boob. Still producing over a year after I stopped albeit only small amounts.

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 12:00:34

Ive just seen a link for a 17 year old breast feeding in USA would you deem that too old? As of course they would still need all the anti bodies, vital vitiamins and such and your children are your children??

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 12:09:48

Off to work now - so if i smell sour milk on my 7/8 year olds i know what it is...prob better than there parents cigerette smoke tho!

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 12:10:07

Oh fgs you can find links for all sorts of crap on the internet it doesn't make it true.

Children naturally lose the ability to match as they lose their milk teeth. That happens well before 17, for most children it starts around age five/six.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 12:10:58

www.naturalchild.org/guest/ann_sinnott.html. some info on natural term breeding from an anthrological POV.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 12:12:54

allwaysthebaddie, every single study done on the subject of infant and child independence - as well as common sense - show that the more security and comfort and closeness to the mother a baby and toddler has (it's up to 5 at least, btw), the more independent and confident a child will grow up to be. People mistakenly think that small children have a similar way of understanding, thinking and feeling about the world to adults, but they don't. They are much more confused and overwhelmed than we believe.

If a child knows that it can access comfort and closeness to its mother whenever it wants and needs it, they grow up with the unconscious belief that the world is good and safe and that they can confidently achieve what they want and they feel good about themselves and positive towards others precisely because they had their emotional needs met as tots, so they are not dysfunctionally full of unmet emotional needs as adults (which creates unhappiness, poor lifestyle choices, addiction, abuse, etc.). One of the primary ways to provide this unconditional access to security and meeting needs is breastfeeding. It is always rated as one of the bet methods in studies on it and also make sense. Breastfeeding is not just brilliantly healthy and immune-boosting, it is incredibly important for giving children comfort, security, support, learning to trust thatbtheir wants and needs can be met... You get the picture. Breaking a child away from that in the mistaken belief that it will foster independence has the exact opposite effect.

I despair that something so obvious is so unobvious to so many people. You don't even need to read any literature on the subject for it to be as obvious as night following day!

That French 'feminist' is a well-known misogyny-apologist and discredited by most other cultural theorists and feminists.

Self-identified Feminists are actually more likely to EBF and attachment parent than other groups, as they are consciously committed to equality and the promotion of feminine mores, behaviours, skills and wisdom.

Women who feel disgusted by any sort of breastfeeding have a right to their feelings but are unknowingly aligning themselves with misogynist thinking that adversely affects them too in other areas of life. Why would women want to submit to the inculcation that breasts are solely sexual and for men to look at enjoy, which is the basic message behind our society being so fucked-up and pathetic over breastfeeding, which is the only function of the female breast and is genetically designed to occur until children are 5 at the very least?!

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 12:16:38
DontEvenThinkAboutIt Mon 11-Feb-13 12:21:22

The type of mums to EBF are also the type to provide a very close and secure home life for their DC's. So any studies are not likely to give a true reflection of the value of EBF. Only child centric Mums EBF.

sugarandspite Mon 11-Feb-13 12:23:12

GREAT post oxfordbags!!

PaellaUmbrella Mon 11-Feb-13 12:23:43

Of course there is nothing wrong with extended BFing or wet nursing. Both are completely natural.

I feel quite sorry for people who feel "disgusted" by it - it must be awful to be so far removed from your own biology.

Re feminism - personally, I've felt that BFing has been the ultimate feminist act. Sustaining my child with my own body, rather than paying good money to male dominated corporations to do the same...and for every man who has ever talked to my chest rather than my face, using my breasts for their primary purpose has taken that power back.

BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 12:24:42

Theoretically I'd be happy to continue until DS self weans, safe in the knowledge that this won't be much longer, although I am much less tolerant of feeding when I don't feel like it these days or it doesn't feel convenient for me (whereas I would have obliged when he was younger.) But personally for me I wouldn't want to continue once he gets a wobbly tooth - that's the absolute cut off for me, based on this theory of them being ready to stop by the time their jaw changes shape for the adult teeth to come through, and also my own squeamishness about wobbly teeth and not wanting one to get too near to me!

YANBU. I bf DS1 was 2 weeks (had planned on a year but didn't work out), DS2 is still breastfed at 11 months, I'd like to stop at 3 or beforehand if he wants to but that's only because I really hate breastfeeding! I only do it because he needs it and gets so much comfort from it, he still feeds about 8 times a day. The "for the mother" comments are ridiculous.
I see nothing wrong with breastfeeding an older child until they choose to stop, they're not being forced to do it, it's not creepy and it's not abuse. Anyone who gives their child cows milk is giving their child a breastmilk substitute. Children need milk, it's much weirder to force them to wean from the breast and then give them milk meant for baby cows.
I give DS1 cows milk btw (and the odd cup of breastmilk) so not judging anyone but when you really think about it, it's weird to give cow's milk instead of human milk.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 12:42:10

EXACTLY, Paella Umbrella, EXACTLY! And you too, DontEvenThinkAboutIt (one of my personal sayings, btw)!

I find that there is a depressing trend in our society that women are told that they have to get their 'old' selves and lives back as soon as possible and that children have to fit into their parents lives in ways that are actually not developmentally very good. People think being child-centric is being a martyr mummy or other patronising terms, and also that we are more likely to make our children spoilt brats, etc. In actuality, children who do not get their early needs met sufficiently, have to grow up too quickly, don't get enough quality attention from their parents/primary caregivers, and yet who get lots of material possessions, clothes, special trips, etc., to 'make up' for all that (and to assuage the parents' guilt), are often allowed to get away with certain behaviours and habits because parents don't want to be the tough guy when they see them so little, so these are the ones who are spoilt and badly-behaved, because their true needs have not been properly met and they've been forced to adopt a false set of needs to want meeting.

Not saying that WOHM or non-child-centric parenting choices are all like this, and certainly not a majority. Just that society has this ridiculous idea that focusing on a child and their needs when they are little is bad for them. It's a long game - put utmost effort in at the start, reap the rewards for longer and longest.

PS Thank you, Sugarandspite smile

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 12:43:55

Comparing Aboriginal and Sioux Indian cultures with Western culture is like trying to compare bananas with soap.
No doubt EBF does no harm, medically. It is clear that the growing/changing bond between the mother and child is perhaps the driving force behind EBF. If not then I stand corrected.
Most women are not in a position to EBF for reasons we already know.
A number of comments have drawn attention to the fact that EBF essentially takes the form of very limited feeding rather than it being the main or additional source of nutrition. A quick feed here and there. What purpose does this serve?
So, based on previous comments.. EBF... Is it predominately for comfort and bonding? Is it a mother not able to move on? Or is it for health reasons? Is it all of these? Do some mothers feel drawn more to one reason than another?

Nutritionally, BF is not necessary when a baby is weaned.
In some cultures where children are BF until later in life other forms of nutrition may be severely limited.

Oxford That is a rather simplistic view. You are essentially condemning any woman who perhaps wears nice lingerie or who seeks reconstructive surgery after breast cancer as kowtowing to misogyny. Breasts are part of being a woman with or without children. Are you saying that women who choose not to have children or who sadly can't are not permitted to view their own breasts as anything aside from functional?

Chunderella Mon 11-Feb-13 12:45:26

I'd be interested to see some proof that self identified feminists are more likely to BF and attachment parent OxfordBags. Never seen any stats on that. Certainly what you describe is a type of feminist attitude, but that's not the same thing.

And as for the OP, no of course there's nothing wrong with it. If a mother is feeding her child something that is safe for the child, which breast milk is, how could there be anything wrong? There is no evidence that even very extended BFing causes any harm to a child. If there was, it would be different, but I've seen nobody in this thread provide any and have never come across any myself. I say this as someone who BFd for closer to ten hours than ten years. People are entitled to feel disgusted by it, just as they are with anything, but that has nothing to do with whether there's anything wrong with it. And just because some or even many people find the sight of something disgusting, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. For example, many of us would be disgusted to witness an operation, all the blood and gore ew, but would we say it shouldn't happen because we don't like the look of it? Doubt it.

But yes OP, yabu to read a sensationalist rag and be bothered about the content!

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 12:48:43

Did you read the blog about Mongolian culture and feeding?

Even small amounts of bmilk still have benefits, bmilk changes as a child gets older, infintely better than cows milk, which children are encouraged to drink.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 13:02:36

Of course, I'm not saying that, Absolute, what a ridiculous thing to say. Over-extrapolate much?! I merely meant that we have breasts to breastfeed, not that we can't use or view breasts in other ways. I like a snazzy bra as much as the next woman. But thinking that Bfing or EBF is disgusting is misogynist. It comes from being unknowingly brainwashed by misogynist thinking in society. How can an essential biological function disgust and perturb rational adults? Do you get disgusted by the thought that people have saliva glands and allow them to moisten their mouths? It's as pointless and odd as that.

To anyone reading this, I certainly do not think that about non-breastfeeders or women who have undergone mastectomies. That is Absoluteeightiesgirl mistsken extrapolation because of her agenda, not my beliefs.

And it is a LIE that children do not need Bm once they are weaned. You stand to make yourself look ridiculous if you come out with that bonkers old chestnut. Find me a single study done on the topic that agrees with that and I will eat my hat and post a profile pic of me doing so. How can you peddle these clichés without having out any thought into them? Do you know ho harmful it is to spread such nonsense?

There is a myth that the science that proves tots should be BF until at least two and then it is really good thereafter also only refers to countries where nutrition is perhaps not so great or so easily available. This is untrue. It appiles to every child ever born and ever will, regardless of maternal geography or wealth. Breastmilk is nutritionally ideal and changes as the child grows, as I've detailed on this thread previously. Nothing can offer the benefits, the nutrition, the vitamins and minerals and so much more. Whilst it is true that we in the West are lucky enough to be able toprovide out Dc with excellent nutrition, nothing we can give them gets close to matching what breastmilk can give them. So an argument could be if we can give them good nutrition, isn't that good enough? But the answer will always be, if I can give my child better than that and it is free, easy (if you can BF), and offers the child wonderful comfort, bonding and soothing, why on earth would I not choose the best for them?

EBF does not essentially mean very limited nursing for all EBFers. You are presuming that after a certain age, all children just have a quick nurse here and there, now and again. Many children nurse frequently and intensely well beyond 18 months, to choose a random age. My son still feeds freauently and intensely at newrly 2, for example. The idea that I am making him do it for my weird issues is preposterous. You can no more make a child Bf than you can make them eat something they hate. And who sould try to shove one of the most sensitive partsof their body into an angry mouth full of teeth, ffs?!

Absolute, your posts really do reveal a telling lack of you considering the emotional need of a child that are met by BFing.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 13:14:28

zcos to answer your questions from p9. My smallest age gap is just over two years but I know tandem feeders weigh much smaller gapos. Yes breeding does reduce fertility but it is not recoimended as contraception for good reason. Once a baby goods a reasonable length of time without as feed in a 24hr period is 6hrs and does so regularly periods generally return, esp if that Six hr gap is overnight. My periods never came back properly when feeding, I still got preg the firsdt month of trying.

Yes I fed baby first if both together. I made sure to give baby the fullest breast but you would find what works for you. Your body will make enough for both hence why women with twins and triplets can bfeed.

I suggest reading adventures in tandem nursing or looking up 'the leaky boob. Or analytical armadillo on Fb as they have loads if info as does Kelly mom. I never planned to tandem feed it just happened.

Your supply may dip in preg and sometimes the taste changes and a baby doesn't like it, they may wean at this point or just carry on. Mine carried on! I found it a bit painful at times, just the initial latch for a min and then it was fine.

I think that's all your questions covered but shall check and do ask on here or pm me. Plus there are some threads in breast feeding about tandem feeding if you do a search. Congratulations on your newborn smile 9 wks us very young do impressed you are already thinking about number two!

MrsHoarder Mon 11-Feb-13 13:30:39

Absolute what reasons do we all know why mothers of ebf babies part 6 longue can't work? Because I will have to give them to dh and ds's nursery, both of which I leave him with for a full day.

bm as a generous breakfast drink can clearly provide benefits without the bfing taking place outside the home. I can easily see that continuing for years, well beyond the stage when I went to a cafe fir me to have lunch and ds to have a bf. Or do you eat nothing healthy at breakfast time as nutritious food can only be consumed in public?

By years I mean 2-3

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 13:37:27

Oxford
I take great exception to the last sentence in your post.

Regardless of what your opinion is your posts display a commensurate lack of consideration for those who, for whatever reason, do not BF. Your post smacks of arrogance and simplicity which fails to consider the facts that actually, children do pretty well without being BF or EBF.
You have failed to understand the point I was making that being babies do not NEED to be BF as a comparison between different cultures NOT because it is nutritionally inadequate but unnecessary.

You have failed to see that the comments I made were based on what I have read on this thread from other posters and not of what I presume. To accuse me of peddling nonsense is amusing to say the least. To also state that I have an agenda is laughable.

My own experiences of the health benefits for BF children are severely tarnished and without wanting to re-post why I suggest you go back through the thread and see for yourself. Has this affected my view on EBF. Quite possibly.

I am simply trying to canvass opinion based on how I see this thread has developed. A number of posters who have/are EBF have offered reasoned and insightful responses. I have spent time reading posted links and doing my own research. I still stand by what I said but I have read and taken on board the comments made by other posters.
Early some posters have become quite defensive and have lashed out. Could I have chosen my words more carefully in my first couple of posts?... Yep, probably. You, on the other hand just come across as a know it all who clearly finds it difficult to accept alternative viewpoints.

And for the umpteenth time..... At no point have I said EBF is disgusting.

I Became pg with ds4 when ds3 was 8 weeks old! I was expressing though so don't know if that made a difference

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 14:14:58

moo mins expressing will make a difference yes. They day if baby is exclusively fed from the breast, no bottle, no dummy and if they feed so many times in 24hrs and no big gaps overnight then you should be OK but its not totally guaranteed at all.

absolute I am very sorry about your dd sad leukemia is a bastard it wouldn't matter if she had bfed till whatever age, its a vile vile disease and we need to do more research into how to cure it. I am running the bupa 10k in may with the 'wooly hugs' mnet team for child cancer world. Xxxx

Startail Mon 11-Feb-13 14:31:29

Certainly my EBF DD2 is my more pessimistic and security seeking of my children, the one who takes things at home and outside to heart.

Her big sister is a natural optimist, who trusts absolutely, that she is loved and that whatever the world throws at her she will succeed. Crazy as she is the socially inept, dyslexic, who gets bullied and has to work very hard to get the teachers to see she has a brain.

DD2 is very academic, socially astute and makes friends easily. Her school reports glow in the dark and yet she is the one who still for a few minutes in the evening needed mum in the most fundamental way a child can.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 15:12:22

Absolute, sorry if I offended you, but a lot of what you say is offensive and yes, you are peddling clichés, stereotypes and myths with a lot of what you say.

I really don't understand the attitude that BFing unnecessary. Yes, we are lucky enough to live in a culture where there are alternatives if women cannot or chose not to BF, but we cannot get round the simple fact that breast milk is the best nutrition for children when the mother can breastfeed successfully.
Your argument is very reductive. How far do we take your logic? A child can have cuddly toys so we don't need to hold them?! Saying Bfing is unnecessary is missing the point of Bfing entirely. Must we be utilitarian automatons with our children and just give them the least possible so long as it reaches some arbitrary level of acceptable?

What is so scary for people about the thought of giving babies the best, giving them as much as possible? What is threatening about lavishing love and comfort on them when they need it most so that they will feel cushioned and confident throughout their whole lives? Where does this notion of not going beyond what is necessary come from? It's almost as sad for the adult as the baby.

You have your own reasons for not feeling positive about BF/EBF and I am sorry for that. However, it is really wrong and unfair to then use your very subjective bias to present your feelings and negative issues surrounding the subject as facts.

I do not have any problem with other people not Bfing, or Bfing for a short period of time, or whatever. I support women's right to choose not to BF and I sympathise with those who wanted to but who couldn't (or not for very long). I was bottle-fed, I would hardly slate my own lovely mum. However, the annoying thing about having to defend Bfing against the mountain of lies, myths and nonsense about it is that one can appear anti any position but one's own and even evangelical. Your individual experience in the matter should not be presented as facts and evidence. No-one is accussing bottle-feeders or short-term BFers as being bad mothers, or making dubious choices and yet people like you feel free to present personal prejudice as evidence as to why anyone who did differently from you as odd and wrong.

It annoys me, having to appear evangelical about BFing when it is just an ordinary, everyday part of life for me and DS. I don't think about it and I certainly don't lounge about feeling smug or superior or thinking about how other mothers are nursing their children, if at all. I don't really care how others feed their children, I just don't want to hear ignorant, narrow-minded, misogynist lies and misunderstandings passed off as facts (or as something culturally more 'right') about something that is entirely natural, normal and positive. And I'm saying this in general, not nec. to Absoluteeightiesgirl. People get off on moaning that Bfing is forced down their throats by the medical profession, etc., but the truth is that society is incredibly twisted and hateful towards Bfing.

Let's look at what being repulsed by BF or EBF really means: a person is disgusted by a vulnerable, needy baby or child wanting sustenance, love, comfort and nutrition. Disgusted by a woman giving those things. Disgusted by woman using her body in ways that have nothing to do with pleasing, attracting or serving men. It's heartbreaking that people feel it, heartbreaking that women get sucked into this vitriol towards their own sex.

Of course there are other ways to offer sustenance, love, comfort and nutrition. And women are free and right to choose whatever ways they want. But why are these choices okay but the primal, biological imperative of the easiest way, the way our bodies were designed to do it, are so offensive and repulsive?! It's so messed-up!

(And again, by saying our bodies were designed to do it, I am not automatically critiquing women who don't or can't, or those missing one or both breasts, etc. Just pointing out a generic biological fact.)

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 15:40:25

Oxford
I don't have the energy.
Lets just agree to disagree on this one.

Emilythornesbff Mon 11-Feb-13 15:54:19

Great posts oxfordbags

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 16:00:02

Okay, Absolute smile

BTw, the only reason I've wrote big posts is that I have some rare free time! I possibly ought to do sensible stuff instead of going on Mn and Fb all day (possibly... But probably not)!

Thanks, Emily.

scarletsalt Mon 11-Feb-13 17:29:10

I am not really all that bothered by extended breastfeeding tbh (hell, I only got to 3 weeks with DS so am in awe of anyone who goes beyond a year!) and I think that society has major weird issues surrpunding breastfeeding full stop.

However, I dont really understand it when children breastfeed up until they are 8 or 9, as this goes beyond all the 'milk teeth' stuff (yes I know that some children are still losing their teeth at a later age, but the milk teeth thing is just to give an approximate age of stopping breastfeeding isnt it, rather than there actually being a physical link between still having milk teeth and wanting to breastfeed?)

Startail what would you have done if your daughter had decided not to give up breastfeeding at 9? Would you let her carry on? Until secondary school? What would have been the cut off for you (if there was one at all?) and why would you have made that the cut off?

Not judging just interested really as I have never heard of anyone in 'real life' breastfeeding their child until such an age.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 17:56:00

Oxford
Nothing wrong with going on MN or FB all day. I am also enjoying some free time hence why I am also kicking around here. I forced myself out of the kitchen as I could have sworn I heard the bottle of Rosé calling my name from the fridge.

BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 18:30:08

Scarlet the idea of the milk teeth thing is that as the jaw changes shape to accommodate the adult teeth, children lose the ability to latch. This is supposed to happen at 7ish but I suppose that "ish" could be as far apart as 5 or 9 years old.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 19:04:54

Well, we can agree on the lazing, Absolute grin

I will confess that I wouldn't want Ds to be Bfing at 9, say, but he's not that age yet so it's easy to say and each to their own, I say.

TheYamiOfYawn Mon 11-Feb-13 19:07:50

And when the child loses his or her latch, it isn't a case of them going "No milk. Time to stop". It becomes more of an effort to get milk, so they tend to gradually (sometimes over a couple of years) cut down on feeds as the effort starts to outweigh the reward. Dd has been in the process of weaning for the past year or so, and that's pretty much in line with other children I know who have self weaned.

Just a VERY random thought....

Does anyone think there may be a link between early puberty and babies spending less time BF?....my mind does work in odd ways sometimes.

BertieBotts Mon 11-Feb-13 20:10:40

I don't think so, Horse, because breastfeeding rates were at their lowest in the 50s and 60s and puberty has been getting earlier since then, I believe? Nice theory though grin

Maybe83 Mon 11-Feb-13 21:32:04

5 madthings it was me who posted I find the thought bf my children disgusting. If you read my first post you would see why. My mother bf my little sis freely as obviously she was in the comfort of her own home when I was a teenager it made me feel physically sick. When I had my own child I couldn't bring my self to do it and I won't on my next I have considered it but I'm not going to. I will look into expressing and using bf to bottle feed my next child as obviously the benefit s can't be disputed but to be honest I found when my milk came in after dd extremely upsetting and worse than labour and couldnt stand milk coming out of my breasts. So not sure if ill even manage that. That is my experience. I can still understand the benefits of bf a baby and even a toddler but I'm sorry That doesn't mean that I can understand either need or want to continue to feed a child who is closer to beginning puberty than being either a baby or toddler. No more than you probably understand my desire to never experience what it's like to bf a child.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 21:39:35

My teen has seen me breeding and seen me give birth, they are normal bodily functions and shouldn't make people feel sick. If you campn express thats great and an amazing thing to try as its hard work. Tbh tho I would look at why it makes you feel sick and see if you can do something about that, Cbt or counselling if you want to. Purely because tho hard work bfeeding can be amazing when it works.

You don't have to understand it want to feed a baby or toddler or any age child but it is the biological norm and it to me seems sad to find it sick. You obviously have deep rooted feelings and if that doesn't bother you then that's fine, but if it does its worth exploring those feelings smile

Its sad that any person feels sick at the thought if their body doing something so normal iry to feel sad about the way they look WTC. The human body is an amazing thing to be proud of smile

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 21:39:57

Etc not WTC?! Autocorrect gone mad!

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 21:40:43

Bfeefding not breeding serving me breeding would be odd!

Sparklyboots Mon 11-Feb-13 21:49:49

Just want to add my own hollow laughter at the notion that I continue to bf my 25mo through pg, while working a high pressure job 'for my own benefit'. Fuck off.

Clearly I am sleep deprived. Ignore me smile

Glad you corrected that 5mad - did think it was a little odd for your teen to see you breeding.....

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 22:03:45

Yes it would be very very odd, wrong in fact (book) he was 11 when I had dd and it was his request to be at the birth, he cut the cord after she was born smile

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 22:04:27

Boakr not book fgs I can't type tonight..,

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 22:05:01

I was a bit perturbed at you letting your teen see you greeding, 5madthings wink

Maybe83, you sound like you have a lot of issues around BFing. The strength of feeling you have about it sounds like it goes beyond a personal distaste and sounds almost phobic. To not want to Bf or be a bit freaked out as a teen to see your mum Bfing is fine but to be so distressed about your milk coming in and to rate it more upsetting than labour really does sound very worrying. I would gently suggest that when you were a teen, there was some transference going on; that everything that was going wrong or hurting you at the time got mentally heaped into one internal mind-drawer called 'breastfeeding'. I would also suggest, not patronisingly, that perhaps some counselling could help you - not to persuade you to Bf, no-one should do that, it's your choice, but your aversion to it sounds troubling and no-one deserves to that sort of thing rattling around in their mind.

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 22:51:02

oxford ive left you a message on the thread where you accuse my lovely dad of abuse you silly woman.

Kiwiinkits Mon 11-Feb-13 22:51:56

And I thought the militant la leche league was an urban myth! This thread has blasted it right open! I had no idea that there were so many people willing to fight to the death over bfing. But now I know.

Sparklyboots you too? I personally think it's unbelievable pressure to put a woman under, to expect her to breastfeed for really long periods, perhaps while pg, perhaps more than one child. And if she doesn't, well, she's not fit to be a mother. She doesn't have a proper attachment to her kids. Well, fuck that. I think the french feminist was right: society's expectations of breastfeeding should recognise women as their own, independent, functioning adults with lives of their own. Who may feel that well, actually, my 1.5 year old is perfectly fine without the need to suckle on me.

Can't imagine any mammals in their natural state (pigs, horses etc) where milk-feedding goes beyond infancy. But I'm not a farmer, happy to be enlightened.

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 22:54:22

There are already links that show that other mammals do nurse their young to an equivalent age is in term if development and weight.

If you don't want to that is fine, but there is nothing wrong in doing so if a mother and child want to.

Zappo Mon 11-Feb-13 23:04:08

"I personally think it's unbelievable pressure to put a woman under, to expect her to breastfeed for really long periods, perhaps while pg, perhaps more than one child. And if she doesn't, well, she's not fit to be a mother."

Have I missed something in this fast moving thread as I don't see anybody pressuring women to practice ebf unless they wish to or have expressed an interest in doing so. Very few people bf past 6 weeks/6 months anyway so we are talking about a tiny minority of people who might even be in a position to bf whilst pregnant with second baby.

Maybe83 Mon 11-Feb-13 23:13:29

Thanks Oxford but I actually had a traumatic free teenage yrs! I just found it extremely painful and vile to have to have milk leaking from my boobs...since this will be my last pregnancy it's not something I will need to experience again I think it in the same way as morning sickness and stretch marks and labour hardly enjoyable but worth it for my wonderful dd and future baby. While the baby is in me I have little control of these but once born I can take control of my aching boobs and constant leaking!

I will though take your analysis of me on board and discuss it with my dh who knows me better than anyone else if we should have a counsellor on speed dial! I also hate vomit now that really is a phobia along spiders but I suppose we all have our little quirks!

5madthings Mon 11-Feb-13 23:16:56

Emataphobia. There are a gewv,netters with that and they have some threads and tactics for coping with it. On another forum I go on a mum had it and got CbT to help her with it.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:20:59

I didn't accuse your dad of abuse on another thread, you detailed an incident that he did that I said sounded abusive, as it was pretty shocking. Anything written elsewhere, especially as it is totally unrelated, is totally irrelevant and bringing it up here just makes you look silly, not me.

I also said there that it is incredibly bad form to mention things on other threads that you've read elsewhere. But, seeing as you're a big fan of it, please accept a big handclap for, on that thread, telling me that me Bfing my son is abuse and creepy. Yes, Bfing a 22 month old is apparently creepy child abuse. Uh-huh hmm

Now, for the non-hystericals: no-one is saying that anyone else should EBF or even BF at all. Just defending womens' right to EBF if that is what works for them and their family. Kiwiinkits, I am my own independent, functioning sdult with a life of my own. That life happens to include breastfeeding. The two things are in no way mutually incompatible. Why is there so much kneejerk black and white thinking on a topic so obviously full of nuances? And why is anyone positive about EBF accused of trying to force others to do it yet people coming out with lies and bullshit and accusing women of abuse and all sorts of spiteful, illogical nonsense is acceptable opinion?

HiggsBoson Mon 11-Feb-13 23:22:04

Bloody hell. Us 'natural term' bfers are getting some shit on here tonight!

DD has just turned 3 and still nurses ONCE per day in the PRIVACY of our home. It's no-one else's damn business as far as I can see, same as it's not my business if some of DD's friends still use dummies or wear nappies.

When DD wants to stop, fine. I'm certainly not doing it for my benefit as there are now very many other things we share our time doing that are a little more interesting than a 5 minute bf of a morning. I'd happily stop whenever.

Some of you seem a little too passionate and hateful in you anti-bf stance and perhaps need to look at why that might be.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:22:41

Maybe83, it is indeed weird to feel the first milk coming in (although I didn't mind, but it is decidedly odd), I do agree with that, sorry if I came on too strong.

Sparklyboots Mon 11-Feb-13 23:24:12

I should be clear that I support full term bfing. I happen to live in a culture that makes it difficult. I'd certainly force weaning if I thought the benefit to him was outweighed by the cost to me - I don't. But I'm fucked if I'm going to be told it's for my gratification, or that I'm a weirdo bf nazi, when actually I've made a choice based on all the info and literally have no energy to raise any objection to others who ff. And I will not be told it's somehow icky in a culture where it's replaced by the milk of another species. Or that I'm the one with the problem when others are grossed out by the thought of a breast in a child's mouth, which is way more biologically appropriate than the common and rarely problematised idea of it in another adult's mouth, or all over the papers as a metaphor for sex, or under the scalpel of a surgeon offering cosmetic 'enhancement'. Seriously, fuck off.

I am my own independent, functioning adult with a life of my own. That life happens to include breastfeeding.

^^THIS.

Like feminists who choose to be SAHM's etc. You have the CHOICE to BF or not, to BF to natural term. It's our choice, and we should be able to defend that. I don't think I could BF a baby past 2 years, but I shouldn't take that choice away from others.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:47:03

I think I love Sparkly and Horse (crush)

marfisa Mon 11-Feb-13 23:49:43

YANBU. Lots of great posts on this thread from BFing mums.

I breastfed DS1 until he was 5. We never set out to do that; it was just what felt right to us. DS2 is only 22 months and I suspect I won't do it as long with him, because different kids are different. But honestly, who cares? shrug

I agree that there are probably loads of UK women who EBF, but stay discreet about it because they would rather not be having to defend their parenting decisions all the time to random acquaintances and strangers. I don't mind challenging social norms, but it gets fatiguing to have to explain yourself all the time.

I admit though that I am sceptical of the mums who turn their EBF experiences into tabloid fodder. I don't think that kind of publicity leads to anything positive: it just reinforces the prejudices of morons who think that EBF is a freak show.

chipmonkey Tue 12-Feb-13 00:23:19

I had to come on to this thread only to say to the poster who said she would have to lactate like a heifer that a heifer is a young female cow who has not yet calved therefore doesn't lactate.
It had to be said!grin

Goldmandra Tue 12-Feb-13 08:33:41

I admit though that I am sceptical of the mums who turn their EBF experiences into tabloid fodder.

I think that is the problem.

As with any other aspect of parenting, someone will always take it to extremes and shout about it.

In this case the extremes she is going to are not actually that extreme which is why the headline refers to what she said (perhaps) that she would do rather than what she actually does.

What makes me sad is that people don't just see BFing a teenager as extreme. Many seem to perceive the entirely appropriate and natural practice of BFing pre-schoolers as weird and extreme.

I didn't set out to BF long term. I didn't have a plan.

I JUST HAD NO REASON TO STOP.

Why would I cause my child distress by withdrawing the milk nature intended her to drink and then replace it with the milk made by cows for their calves?

I would never in a million years tell another mother that they should be BF their child at any age but I would love to live in a society which had its priorities less skewed and accepted this wonderful, natural method of giving babies and children the perfect food for them.

We don't get upset seeing a cow feeding a calf in a field even when they are old enough to have been weaned and survive on other food so why do we get so uptight about mothers who want to do the same for their offspring?

BFing children isn't creepy or abusive. It is what nature intended and the fact that the child would be fit and healthy if offered an alternative doesn't make it bad!

Goldmandra Tue 12-Feb-13 08:35:18

I thought a heifer was a female cow who had only calved once. Am I wrong?

Tis ok Oxford, I think I fancy you too smile

Cabrinha Tue 12-Feb-13 08:47:43

Not read all pages yet, but I thought I'd throw in my experience, in the interests of the public understanding of longer term breastfeeding!

My daughter just turned 4. She feeds (comfort, not nutrition I'm sure) every day that I'm home - I work away a couple of days a week, sometimes longer.

At least once a week I suggest she stop - this isn't for my needs! In fact, I have been known to say "will you put that DOWN now!"

She says she wants to stop when she's 5. Or 12. Or next Wednesday. Depending on her mood.

Nursery say she's one of the most independent children that they have - though I will say, she's FOUR. Independence is not the be all and end all in a 4 year old! What do want them to do - move out?!

My girl is perfectly secure and happy not seeing me every day. My friend feeds her 4yo, and is divorced so her child stays with her dad a few days a week. Happily independent.

I just wanted to comment on the independence thing, and it being the mother's choice... Because you only here that uninformed incorrect view from those with no experience of it.

Cat98 Tue 12-Feb-13 09:00:42

YANBU, though I don't think the article is great - oh wait, it's 'closer' magazine, what did we expect?!
Ds breastfed until he was 3 years and 1 month. (Notice how I say 'ds breastfed' not 'I breastfed him?' That's because that is how it is. Heads up for the people saying 'its for the mother's needs'. I'm sorry but that is total crap.)
I did encourage him to stop, partly because I was pregnant but also because I'd had enough! However I have no issue with people feeding for longer. It's still good for the child, how can anyone compare it to donuts.. Are they full of antibodies that fight infection? Er .. If they are can someone tell me because I'll stock up on the little critters!
Seriously some of the ignorance is sad, how can people say its wrong when they clearly have NO idea how it all works? Either do your research or keep ill informed 'opinions' to yourselves, people!

I am currently bf my 10 month old DS. I don't know when I'll stop. I have no plan. I stopped feeding my dd when she was 22 mo as I was pregnant with DS & she stopped wanting the milk as it tasted funny. Yes, she could walk & talk VERY clearly, & lots more besides.

DS will be my last child. If he still wants milk every few days when he's 5, who knows? My only concern would be that DD would be scarred as she DIDN'T have it.

I think articles ridiculing breast feeding like this are aimed to alleviate the guilt of those who don't even try. They can hold up these 'weirdos' & say they don't want to take that risk.

Attitudes to bf CAN be changed. I'm from NI & was born there at a time when bf figures were much lower than they are now (& they are still lowest in UK, Wales is next). My parents were at our house when I brought DD home, it had never occurred to my DF that I would bf. he was horrified, thought it was unnatural, said it was gross, thought that some real milk would be better for her. He worried he'd have no chance to bond (I live inengland now). (He's not normally a total arse, he just had v entrenched ideas on the matter) They are very close.

Interestingly IMO he is now quite an advocate of bf, I overheard him proudly proclaiming hat I'd bought a special dress so I could feed 6wo. DS at a family wedding, saying 'isn't that brilliant, she's such a good mum!' Don't get me wrong, i dont think what i didmakes me great, but I was pleased that he clearly did, given his previous views. It just shows me that exposure to it as the norm can change attitudes, articles like this have the opposite effect.

I snarfed at doughnuts too, surely it's bakewell or chocolate tarts?

Shagmundfreud Tue 12-Feb-13 09:55:17

Bollox to EBF children of 3 or 4 being 'infantilised'.

People who think this have never lived in developing countries where bf into early childhood is common.

Children growing up in these cultures are often MASSIVELY more responsible and mature at an early age than UK children who are weaned early.

Shagmundfreud Tue 12-Feb-13 10:00:21

I think it's amazing that its ok to criticise natural term bf openly in the press when all known evidence suggests it is at very worst harmless and at best beneficial, and yet it's considered morally unacceptable to openly criticise tiny newborns not being breastfed at all, when we know it would be better for them to have human milk.

Midori1999 Tue 12-Feb-13 10:17:29

I particularly agree with you roast post Shagmund.

I mean, imagine the out cry if anyone described crossing to FF from birth as 'creepy and child abuse'. They'd be all 'you can't tell a woman what to do with their own body, it's their choice, what business it is of anyone else's, why does anyone care what someone else feeds their baby'.

That doesn't seem to apply to breast feeding though.... hmm

ChunkyPickle Tue 12-Feb-13 10:24:27

For my own benefit! Rubbish. 2.5 year-old DS has just had to give up his morning feed because I'm pregnant and their just isn't anything there anymore (he's tried.. a few times.. which was a bit excruciating given current sensitivity)

Yes, I feel sad that when he asks in the morning I have to remind him that it's all gone, but to say that I was only feeding him for my benefit is ridiculous - believe me, I don't enjoy being attacked and latched onto with no warning should I not have a t-shirt on in bed and stalked when in the bath or shower!

Zappo Tue 12-Feb-13 11:59:14

"And I will not be told it's somehow icky in a culture where it's replaced by the milk of another species. Or that I'm the one with the problem when others are grossed out by the thought of a breast in a child's mouth, which is way more biologically appropriate than the common and rarely problematised idea of it in another adult's mouth, or all over the papers as a metaphor for sex, or under the scalpel of a surgeon offering cosmetic 'enhancement'."

Sparklyboots has raised some excellent points.

As I have associated breasts with feeding for so long and I no longer see them as remotely sexual, I'm in fact slowly becoming more and more uncomfortable with the idea of adults manhandling them at all. So I've got the opposite problem to those "grossed" out by them being used for feeding/comfort.

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 12:30:17

I think what's becoming apparent to me is that many people presume that women who Bf over a certain time limit (6months or a year, say) have planned to do so, in some sort of militant, 'I am Gaia, hear me roar! Every woman who does not do the same as me is inferior!' way. Whereas I have never come across a single woman who has decided to BF for years and years. These articles are unhelpful, because they force the interviewee to put a time limit on her Bfing, or whatever habit she is talking about, and it makes it look like some hardcore plan. That is really unhelpful to women pg for the first time, who might think they have to decide how long they'll bf for before they start. The truth is, as everyone here who EBFs proves, is that you start BFing and then don't see why you should stop at such and such an age, because you can see that it benefits the child physically, mentally and emotionally.

Shagmund, your points are excellent. It also reminded me of something else I get uneasy about when people try to chat shit about BFing in other countries; it always has, to me, a bit of a whiff of colonialism, racism even, as though there is this veiled thought that they are savages or not as good as us and we should be 'better' than them.

My friend is a photographer and specialises in capturing scenes from the lives of women and children that the world never sees or thinks about, and she has taken wonderful shots in developing countries of 5 yr old children working alongside their mothers in fields, wielding hefty knives, then stopping for a quick BF then back on with the chopping. Bfing is infantilising, is it?!

I don't quite understand why people want kids to be older than they should be developmentally. Think about how fucked-up all those Tory toffs are that were sent away to boarding schools when they were still so young!

EauRouge Tue 12-Feb-13 12:51:53

Ha, my original plan with DD1 was to BF for 6 months. Seem to have gone a little bit over that- 3 years and 10 months over to be precise.

Have to admit I would never give DD1 a hefty knife. Maybe I'm babying her wink

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 13:01:22

Eau, she will be living at home to Bf hourly when she's at University, you monster! I started Ds on the scythe at 12 months.

EauRouge Now what are you doing back here? grin

I remember sitting on the sofa at 3 months in, sobbing my heart out and being glad that I only had 3 more months to go before I could stop BF. Then I heard someone say that you shouldn't give cows milk until 12 months and I wondered what I was suppose to do for the 6 months in-between. Formula? So why was I BF in the first place, and what happened at 6 months to change things? I started researching on the internet, read the Breast and Bottling Feeding boards and bought 'The Politics of Breastfeeding', and then later 'Breastfeeding Older Children'. I can't say I agreed with everything and did sometimes find both authors a bit too militant and worthy, but I learned a lot and a lot about our society too. DS will be 3 next week and he's still feeding. So, I definitely didn't set out with a BF agenda, and still don't have one, but knowledge changes a lot. (as does your supply settling down grin )

<gives DS the kitchen scissors safe in the knowledge that he can't use them because he's left-handed>

Theicingontop Tue 12-Feb-13 13:56:52

Oxfordbags, exactly. I too was another who thought 6 months would be my limit, or 'until they get teeth', until the first tooth and 6 months came and went and I realised that it was unrealistic. DS loved breastfeeding, I thought it was brilliant because I had a built-in, never-ending supply of 'sleeping potion' (as my OH called it), and it had just become a part of our lives by then.

I don't regret any of it. DS is 2.5, and weaning himself. I never planned to go this long!

EauRouge Tue 12-Feb-13 14:58:54

Baroness, I'm a glutton for punishment I was concerned about my DDs' lack of knife skills. Think I'd better get them both started right away. I wonder if a meat cleaver will be too heavy for DD1?

You make a good point though, I wonder if a lot of people think BF a 3yo is exactly like BF a 3 mo? It's not; it's waaaay bloody easier. There's no way in hell I would have lasted 4 years if the entire 4 years had been like the first few weeks.

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 15:03:56

Yeah, I gave myself a maximum limit of 18 months, which sounded loads, but when he got to that age, it didn't even occur to me to give up. He clearly still wants and needs it and it's such a lovely, fun part of daily life. And you get to really relax and think during a longer feeding sesh.

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 15:08:31

Eaurouge, oh god, the early weeks! And I think there should be more reassuring info about getting through teething and what it's like to BF a child with a full mouth of teeth (it's not bad, for anyone reading this who hasn't got there yet).

EauRouge Tue 12-Feb-13 15:14:03

I had someone ask me about teething yesterday. It's amazing how quickly they learn not to bite the boob that feeds. Actually, DD1 never really went through a biting phase and DD2 only did it a few times for a week or so.

Considering some babies get teeth very early it would be nice for more information. I had so many people say to me 'you'll have to stop when she gets teeth', I think a lot of people actually believe that you do have to stop. Then why are they called milk teeth confused

Do you relax and think during long feeds? That's admirable, I usually relax and play Angry Birds grin (no hands needed for feeding when they get older!)

Bunfags Tue 12-Feb-13 15:20:44

I think wet nursing is total reasonable. If I was friends with someone and we both had babies who were BF and she wanted a break, I could take over and vice versa. What is odd about this?

YANBU OP. It's noboy elses business.

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 15:40:37

Rouge, I do some MNing too. Some of my comments on this thread have been made whilst DS nurses grin

OHforDUCKScake Tue 12-Feb-13 15:53:14

Most of my comments on here were while I was feeding. Ds really, really likes feeding.

I think it's true that people don't realise that feeding a 4 year old is nothing like feeding a 4 week old. Even feeding an 8 month old wasn't the same as feeding a tiny baby.

And a lot of babies don't get their teeth till later - a friend's boy didn't pop his first tooth until he was almost 2.

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 16:35:18

I've been pondering the whole 'you should stop BFing when a child can walk and talk' thing - apart from it being untrue, does that insinuate that children who walk and talk later than their peers are immature and so on? And where does this idea stand in terms of BFing disabled children who will never walk or talk?

Do people who come out with stuff ever actually examine what they are saying?!

EauRouge Tue 12-Feb-13 16:53:38

I think they are trying to rationalise the way they feel.

"it's all about the mother"- how many mothers of NTBF children have they spoken to?

"you should stop when they have teeth"- what about the babies that are born with teeth? Why are first teeth also known as 'milk teeth'?

"there aren't any benefits"- yes, there are lots.

All the reasons are so easily refuted. I think some people are saying these things because they don't feel comfortable with natural term breastfeeding but can't pinpoint why.

I suppose the reason would be different for everyone but I would guess that

-sexualisation of breasts in our culture
-the way that our society encourages children to be 'independent' from a very early age
-historically wanting women to be fertile sooner to bear more children (especially to provide heirs for royalty/wealthy families)

probably contribute quite a lot. It's very complex though.

I suppose it's been like a vicious circle; the more people disapproved of it, the less women did it in public, and the less it was seen in public, the fewer mothers realised that it was natural.

5madthings Tue 12-Feb-13 17:08:36

ARF at planning to feed. I have bfed for over nine years. No I didn't plan that, with ds1 I got preg at 19 and was at uni, I planned to give bfeeding a go. My mum had not managed it but I had a friend at uni who had a toddler who had fed him for 12mths sand she was positive about it. Fs1 was a natural and fed for 18mths when he weaned himself.

Ds2 I wanted to bfeed no plans for how long. He fed for almost four yrs. I had ds3 when he was two and ended up tandem feeding. Not planned at all. Then I had ds4 when feeding ds3.

Its just the way it worked out.

And yes feeding a toddler is very different from a small baby. I simply saw no reason to stop, they liked it, it meant they slept. It was easy and an instant comforter when tired/poorly/upset. Quite frankly I am quite lazy and so bfeeding and co'sleeping suited me! Dp saw that it worked and so we went with it.

I do find it very strange and SAS that something so incredibly normal is seen as something odd or icky and to have it referred to as abusive is bloody insulting.

Antipag Tue 12-Feb-13 17:16:13

It is definitely a cultural attitude problem. I have never understood why we say 'BF is better for your baby' when we what we are really saying is 'FF is worse for your baby'

sits back and waits to be flamed

MyThumbsHaveGoneWeird Tue 12-Feb-13 18:13:02

I have come to this thread late, but can't not comment. The article isn't too bad... But the comments! E.g.:

"I breastfed my baby for 6 months and yes the bonding was great but now we are bonded and he has had all the nutritious benefit then there is no need.
Don't even get me started on wet-nursing, do people not realise that there are probably just as many female Peado's out there as males?"

And they are all like that!

Have I been living in a cosy mumsnet bubble? Do people really think like that?

And how do people who stop bf at 6 months get time to mumsnet? <typing on iPhone with DS age 2.2 attached to right boob>

Booboostoo Tue 12-Feb-13 18:16:33

I am bfing 20mo DD but DP is not very happy about it and my family are also unsupportive, so I have gone out of my way to see if there is any evidence that extended bf has negative effects. Despite a popular assumption that bf toddlers/children might be psychologically scared, more dependent, more needy or unreasonably attached to their mothers, there is no scientific evidence (that I can find) that extended bf has any of these effects or that adults with psychological problems later on in life were predominantly bfed for long periods as children.

I think that extended bf is a perfectly natural habit, entirely compatible with bringing up a well adjusted adult, but one that has fallen out of favour and out of living memory so it appears weird.

MyThumbsHaveGoneWeird Tue 12-Feb-13 18:17:08

Ps an American friend asked me the other day why so many British mums stop at 6 months. Do you think it's because that's when formula marketing is allowed?

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 12-Feb-13 18:19:18

Is there a popular assumption that BF up until about 2 causes any problems at all?

I've never heard that and half my youngests family think bf is sole
Y used to alienate them no tater when you do it but there wankers.

Antipag Tue 12-Feb-13 18:26:25

Thumbs, I can not tell you how many times my MIL has tried to usher me into a stinky public toilet to stop me feeding in public. I used to take great pleasure in refusing and picking as public a place as I could think of to feed (although it's not as if I was flashing my tits at the baby and shouting 'Have a go on that!!!'). I am not saying it is a generation thing. I have been attacked by a 20 something woman in a pub on a sunday afternoon telling me I was disgusting and someone should call social services on me for feeding an 11mo, she also seemed quite concerned at her boyfriend seeing my boobs so maybe I was waving them about like maracas without even realising it!!!

Theicingontop Tue 12-Feb-13 18:28:49

My MIL had similar issues. She's assumed that DS has weaned, but the truth is I just stopped referring to it at all around her. I don't confirm or deny.

"Oh now come on, you've really got to stop it now. He's far too old, he's two now." <worried expression>

Fuck off!

5madthings Tue 12-Feb-13 18:43:58

I think there are lots of misconceptions re breeding.

When ds2 was 2 yes 4mths and ds3 a tiny baby I had to take ds2 for a hospital app (umbilicasl hernia they were keeping an eye on) obviously during the app I fed ds3. The consultant commented on how he was a big baby and how I couldn't possibly have enough milk for him. 9lb 5oz born and he put on about 1lb a week from birth onwards. I politely told him it was my milk that had got him that big and he would be fine.

The consultant needed to examine ds2 who got upset, once done I cuddled him and he wanted a feed. So I fed him... At which point the consultants jaw hit the floor and he said you can't be feeding him as well, you will not have enough milk for two children and he needs to be eating solid foods...

So again I politely informed him I could indeed make enough milk for two children and that ds2 did eat plenty of solid foods, he just happened to bfeed as well. He couldn't seem to get his head around it at all for a seemingly educated person. I suggested he read up a bit on breeding...

5madthings Tue 12-Feb-13 18:45:09

Bfeeding fgs why does my autocorrect keep correcting it to breeding..

Goldmandra Tue 12-Feb-13 18:50:15

5madthings

I hope your consultant was the same one I saw with DD2. I'd hate to think there were even more out there although I know logically that there are many, many more sad

thumbs it could be formula marketing but I don't think so.

A lot go back to work then or soon after, so want to get it sorted & don't feel able to express.

But I think the main thing is that they simply believe that THAT is the advice. The number of people who genuinely don't k ow that the advice is

Exclusive bf until 6 months and recommended continued feedi g until at least 2.

I think somewhere in the HV manual years ago this bit got per off. I don't think it's pushed to new mums in the first few weeks as sometimes the thought of getting to 6mo is daunting enough.

Then there's the thorny issue of weightloss. I assumed bf would be great for skin hint down, pre natal I gleefully referred to it as 'babysuction' Bub after the initial post parfumerie loss, I PUT ON weight, despite being careful. It made me very down. Then suddenly dd was 15 months & only feeding twice a day & like magic it started melting away. Only then did I find that this is really common.

It's happening now too DS is 10 mo & I'm eating crisps like I breathe air & I just can't shift it despite daily infant & toddler wrangling sessions & miles & miles of preschool marches.

Then there's the 'excuse' period. A woman is allowed to look like a new mum for a limited period & I'd suggest 6 months is the very upper limit. After that, one must be glamourous & preened & well rested etc. Breast feeding does curtail this and requires a rather repetitive separates wardrobe I find!

But mostly, mostly it's our horribly sexualised & confused society who insist on separating our children from us as young as possible & insisting that boobs are for wanting over.

Sorry if garbled, been typing on phone in between feeding, bathing tidying

Antipag Tue 12-Feb-13 18:52:41

5mad, perhaps autocorrect thinks it is time for you to TTc for DC4????

Antipag Tue 12-Feb-13 18:54:48

But mostly, mostly it's our horribly sexualised & confused society who insist on separating our children from us as young as possible & insisting that boobs are for wanting over.

Babiesinslings , I totally misread that as boobs are for wanking over.

Goldmandra Tue 12-Feb-13 18:55:34

After that, one must be glamourous & preened & well rested etc.

OMG nobody told me!!! shock

DD2 is 9. It's too late now isn't it? sad

MyThumbsHaveGoneWeird Tue 12-Feb-13 19:07:49

babiesinslingsgetcoveredinfood
Lots of good ideas there, it's an interesting thing to think about. I agree re he weight loss, but also have lots of non British friends and the 6 month thing is def a particularly British phenomenon. In other countries people either never get on with it and stop early or carry on til toddlerhood ( just from my cross section of aquaintances).

Btw... Re your username... Have you tried draping a big napkin over baby, head and all? That's what I did. grin

5madthings Tue 12-Feb-13 19:09:33

antipag I have FIVE children!! Hence being 5madthings! Four boys and one girl. I think I am done!! smile

MyThumbsHaveGoneWeird Tue 12-Feb-13 19:11:37

Antipag
Lol that she thought her boyfriend was going to run off with you or something because he'd seen your naked boob with baby attached. Obv you are doing pretty well on the glam and groomed thing despite the breast feeding!

Wishihadabs Tue 12-Feb-13 19:13:48

I have worked in a SCBU and just wanted to say that breast milk is tailored to the mother's own babies or child's needs. Breast milk produce for a 4 or 5 year old wouldn't have enough calories for an ebf baby. Also HIV is transmitted in untreated breast milk. So for me feeding other people's babies is a big no.

As you were

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 19:13:58

Filth, the lot of yer!

MyThumbsHaveGoneWeird Tue 12-Feb-13 19:14:52

Btw, what happened to the daily mail journalist OP?

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 19:14:53

Sorry, I had refreshed after Antipag's last comment!

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 19:15:17

Had NOT. See, Bfing is also bad for one's typing wink

antipag it was supposed to be wanking! <crude emoticon>

thumbs he never tolerated a napkin! I think he must've started weani g himself on toast crumbs at 8 weeks.

I think there really is a perception that 6 months is all youhave to do. I thought that. The teeth thing scared me. Then dd got teeth at16 weeks, so I got over it. Then the asking for it was my next worry. Then 'schlurp, ugga shide' became my favourite phrase.

I'm not technically British though, soooo

The 'op' is desperately trying to formulate this into

'Militant Mums March on Mammary Misuse'
It will be written in such a way that will judge those who do breastfeeding beyond 6 months & those who choose to ff whilst still making bf icky. It will have a photo dragged from the archive of some saggy old lentil weaver. It will run next to a banner article about a Kardashian in a piece of dental floss asking if she's too thin/fat/happy/sad etc

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Tue 12-Feb-13 20:12:54

babiesinslingsgetcoveredinfood

You are misquoting The WHO recommendations.

Here they are (cut and pasted)

Exclusive breastfeeding is recommended up to 6 months of age, with continued breastfeeding along with appropriate complementary foods up to two years of age or beyond.

That means exclusive BF up to 6 months and then BF up to (note, it does not say until) two years or beyond

The WHO will have taken a lot of care over these recommendations. They are quite vague but I bet their vagueness is very deliberate.

Dont worry, you are in good company, they have been misquoted a lot on this thread. grin

MrsHoarder Tue 12-Feb-13 20:20:52

Those who think other mammals only have milk in infancy: have you seen lambs in summer? They go to suckle from their mothers and practically push her into the air because they're nearly the same size and are struggling to get their heads underneath.

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Tue 12-Feb-13 21:11:04

There are plenty of good arguments to support EBF but comparing humans to mammals isn't one of them. I don't know, but i wonder if humans are the only mammal to allow their babies to decide when to stop feeding.
Mother dogs and cats forcibly push their offspring away when they decide it's time to wean their babies.

Goldmandra Tue 12-Feb-13 21:15:13

Mother dogs and cats forcibly push their offspring away when they decide it's time to wean their babies.

I guess if nature took its course this would happen once the child's latch became insecure and uncomfortable when the milk teeth came loose.

EauRouge Wed 13-Feb-13 08:34:03

DontEvenThink, I am really confused about the way you are interpreting the WHO guidelines. I don't think they are vague at all.

Exclusively breastfeeding up to 6 months= nothing but breastmilk until a baby is 6 months old
Continue alongside complementary food up to the age of 2 years= breastmilk and solids until a child is 2 years old
and beyond= longer if you fancy it

This is the meaning taken by HCPs and breastfeeding organisations across the world, I'm not sure why you're getting a different meaning from it. The WHO wouldn't use the phrase 'up to' to mean two different things in one sentence and they wouldn't set a limit of two years and then say you could go beyond it if you like. The 6 months and two years recommendations are NOT limits. They are targets.

This is from the book Breastfeeding Answers Made Simple which is used by HCPs and breastfeeding counsellors-

"Research has found that children weaned between 16 and 36 months have more types of illness, longer duration of illness, and require more medical care than breastfeeding children the same age (Gulick, 1986). Also, weaned children between 12 and 36 months were 3.5 times more likely to die than those still breastfeeding (Molbak, 1994). No matter where a child lives, weaning before age 2 is associated with greater incidence of illness and death."

If you want to look up those references, they are-
Gulick, E (1986) The effects of breastfeeding on toddler health Pediatric Nursing, 12, 51-54
Molbak, K (1994) Prolonged breastfeeding, diarrhoeal disease, and survival of children, BMJ, 308, 1403-1406

I'm sure the risk of death in developed countries is tiny, but improved infant health is the reason for the WHO's recommendations.

EauRouge Wed 13-Feb-13 08:45:05

As for mothers pushing their offspring away, of course that happens with humans too. It's part of natural weaning. I have 'geroff' moments with my DDs. It's not a sudden 'you are weaned now' denial, just something that mothers do when their children are particularly wriggly or rough, which happens as they get older.

Wishihadabs Wed 13-Feb-13 09:22:35

Of course it's natural to feed children as long as they want to feed for. Bfing primary age children is unusual, but then formal education starts very young in this country

FadBook Wed 13-Feb-13 09:52:36

Thanks for that evidence EauR, will be copying and pasting in to my notes folder for future reference with a judgemental family member...grin

I glad I've read this thread (lurked and posted earlier about feeding a toddler earlier) as many of you have it have reassured me that what I'm doing is natural. Just from reading the thread and reading real life experiences, I feel confident in my decision to feed DD until he is ready to stop. So thank you to those of you who have shared a story/evidence/experiences. thanksthanksthanks

I had a 12 month 'target' in my head but that came and went and now, at 18 months, the thought of 'weaning' her off breast milk seems far too much effort when it gives her so much comfort at certain times of the day.

OxfordBags Wed 13-Feb-13 09:52:49

If people want to bring bloody mammals into the equation, then they must also include the fact of life span: cats live, what - 18 yrs maximum? And a human female, let's say 80 average lifespan. If you're going to be daft enough to say, look, cats kick their kittens off the nips at a young age, then you have to include the comparitive lifespan factor and realise that those kittens are probably the equivalent of a 5 yr old human, perhaps less, perhaps more.

But bringing what other species do into the argument is daft, full stop. A lot of animals eat their own shit, should we follow their lead on that?!

OxfordBags Wed 13-Feb-13 10:04:13

Great post, Fadbook grin Like a lot of us have said, there's no doubt a whole lot more kids BFing beyond, say, 18 months, but the stigma means they keep it private (also, at that age, they can go longer without feeding or wanting to when they're out and about, so there's much less need to BF in public. Athough you should if you want and need to, obviously).

Can I share a nice personal experience of nursing? My gran is really old, nearly 100, and she's going a bit senile, poor love, but what she adores is to see Ds Bfing, always has. She says it makes her really happy and calm that life goes on as she reaches the end of hers and she drifts into a blissful reverie remembering EBFing her own 3 children. Me, Ds, her and Mum often sit on the sofa, with him playing or nursing, 4 generations enjoying a wonderfully happy and peaceful time thanks to Bfing. It feels timeless.

Antipag Wed 13-Feb-13 10:04:28

tucks into poo poo platter

What do you mean we shouldn't follow them Oxford?

OxfordBags Wed 13-Feb-13 10:05:36

grin <-- Shit-eating grin, of course.

5madthings - I love the assumption that 'he really should be eating solids now' - like all he ate was milk? And you can't have enough milk for both of them? Twins, triplets anyone??

Do other mammals have milk teeth which they lose for adult teeth?

I really wish I'd tried harder to BF longer than 8 months. Stupid PND.

eauR quite. I think that they are clear. dint ebmventbi k (apt?) appeared to be picking on semantics.

5madthings Wed 13-Feb-13 10:23:37

I know visualize like a massive two yr old was going to be exclusively bfed! The consultant seemed to have no clue that a child could in fact eat solids and still be bfed!! And yes twins, triplets etc... There us a shameful lack of knowledge about bfeeding amongst some medical professionals.

fraktion Wed 13-Feb-13 10:33:33

There are also the doctors who don't realise that pregnancy resets the VF clock to the age of the youngest baby, so the argument about having BF 'too long' so the younger child won't get the right milk is wheeled out fairly regularly despite being wrong.

ICBINEG Wed 13-Feb-13 10:45:52

So I did keep BFing for reasons that were as much to do with me as DD. That was between the ages of 4 months and 8 months when I didn't want to stop because I was suffering PND and BFing was the only 'good' time I got with her. Don't get me wrong, she didn't object, but it was clear that I was doing it for me too.

Because of that I am always a little worried about my motivations for carrying on now she is 20 months. In fact last weekend I thought I would try and not mention the milk and see if she seemed spontaneously interested. DD made no mention of it but once she realised she was in to the final phase of bed preparation and hadn't had her milk she went crazy. Scratching me, pulling at my clothes and even once we got set she was sobbing and glaring all the way through. The next day she demanded milk at lunch time for the first time in months.....

It certainly seems like it is something she wants and not something that I am just doing for myself! But threads like this sow the seeds of doubt.

Antipag Wed 13-Feb-13 10:51:31

ICIBINEG Please don't let the seeds of doubt take root, there is nothing wrong in what you are doing, you can not force your child to continue BF, if it helps you feel confident in your choice you might consider adopting a 'don't offer, don't refuse' approach. Well done to you for continuing to feed through PND, it might have had benefits for you but that doesn't mean it was a selfish thing to do. It was the BEST thing to do for you both smile

FadBook Wed 13-Feb-13 11:20:36

I've done don't offer, don't refuse for the last four weeks. Dd has cut down more during the day, but makes up for it at tea time, bedtime and morning! grin

ICBINEG Wed 13-Feb-13 12:07:23

I like the idea of don't offer, don't refuse....but I still worry that one might subconsciously influence a child to continue. I often can't help grinning all over my face when DD is BFing...especially as at the moment she has a habit of putting each finger in turn up for a kiss and also turning my head from side to side as if trying to picture me from all angles. (less grinning like a loon when she decides to stick fingers up my nose but hey ho). She is such an active fraught toddler, always on a mission to do something, be somewhere and I can't help valuing the small amount of quite calm time...

I think I am scarred by a documentary I saw about a child skiing champion. The dad was all 'oh no it's not for me...it's him that wants to do all this' and yet the footage basically showed that every time the kid questioned carrying on the dad launched into a passive aggressive tirade..'no no it's fine, I mean why bother, if you don't like it then lets all just stay in bed in the mornings. Let's just sleep in and do nothing with our lives...blah blah blah.' And then when the kids conceded that he would like to carry on the dad was all, 'see it's just his dream to be a skier!' Just fecking ghastly.

Anyway, my point if I have one is that just because you can't force a child to BF doesn't mean the parent isn't influencing things.

I hate looking down at DD and feeling how wonderful it is to spend that time with her (plus or minus scratching and nose poking) and then remembering that it makes me (and her) an outlier in the eyes of UK society....I try to focus on the fact that it is normal in the eyes of the global society!

Goldmandra Wed 13-Feb-13 12:50:08

but I still worry that one might subconsciously influence a child to continue.

Would it be so terrible if your enjoyment of bfing had a small influence over your DD's choice to continue?

Please forgive me for being so frank but your analogy with the skier in just plain ridiculous. The skiing child could well have been continuing against his will because of the pressure from his father. I don't think in a million years that you could make a child bf in a similar way.

Bfing is good for her and good for you. If you offer and she doesn't want it she'll say no. She wouldn't carry on to keep you happy.

It is actually your job to influence her choices while she is a child. You can't be a parent without imposing your wishes and views on your child and you should never, ever feel guilty about offering a bf to your toddler.

OxfordBags Wed 13-Feb-13 13:06:37

ICB, your posts make me feel quite sad for you. You are allowed to enjoy BFing and get benefits from it too, you know! No mother in the world is such a martyr that if it was a godawful experience each and every time that she would carry on for years in suffering. I know that depression can make you feel selfish and undeserving, but please don't ever feel that BFing your child was or is selfish, or feel guilty for enjoying it.

If the BFing was the only 'good' times for you, then it was 100x the good times for her! Plus, all the other lovely things I know you did for her despite suffering within yourself (even if you couldn't identify them).

Please don't look down at her nursing and feel like an outsider or a freak or whatever. You know that this is a wonderful thing that BOTH of you enjoy (minus the nose-poking... it does stop, honest!) so everyone can go take take a flying jump, frankly! As you say, the majority of the world's mothers feed for longer and all the science on the subject gives you the thumbs-up, so stop worrying and keep on enjoying. And enjoying for your own sake too.

I bloody love BFing. Of course, I get benefits for it. It's not for my benefit, but I benefit from it also. I don't want to speak for others, but when other posters decry the idea of it being for their benefit, I don't think they're meaning they don't also benefit, I think they're just defending themselves against the daft accusations that mothers make older tots nurse purely for their own needs/desires/issues. Other posters, please feel free to tell me I've got you wrong, if I have.

As you know, you cannot force a child, especially an older one to BF. And it sounds like your DD wants to - she was clearly very annoyed with you for witholding it from her that day!

As Goldmandra says, you have to gently and constantly influence your baby and child. We influence them with their sleep and naps, with eating solids, with play, with behaviour and manners inside and outside the home... you name it, we influence it. The very fact that you worry about not placing undue pressure on her that are secretly your needs shows you reslly won't do! People like that man you mentioned have no self-awareness and you clearly do. I'd hate to think you might not BF your DD when she wants to because you convince yourself she want to stop because you feel really unworthy of exercising any influence on her.

You sound like you are a really caring, thoughtful and responsive mum smile

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Wed 13-Feb-13 13:28:34

EauRouge

Ok, I think I agree with you. hmm

I have just looked at the NHS guidelines and they are much clearer. I can't seem to cut and paste their recommendations but there is no ambiguity. They have dropped the mention of 2 years though.

I have had another look at the WHO guidelines and I can see what you mean now. It was the up to's that were confusing me but I can now see that they are meant the same way as an until (IYSWIM)

I used to many, many years ago write guidelines to various bits of legislation so I usually think I know what I am doing grin

When I BF my DC's I followed the current UK guidelines to the letter. I didnt have particularly strong feelings one way or another and it was a simple way to decide. grin I fed my first two for exactly 1 year and 1day (as I thought it mean to stop on their actual birthdays) and I fed my last DC for 9 months as the guidelines had changed. It worked well for us. I would not have wanted to carry on later than a year but I really, really don't mind what other people do whether it's EBF or BF. I sometimes find the arguments for extended BF a bit silly. If you want to EBF you should just get on with it and tell anyone who objects to get stuffed mind their own buisness.

BertieBotts Wed 13-Feb-13 13:47:11

I do think some of the arguments are spurious at best - but I can totally understand why people feel the need to defend their choice to do so. I wish we could all agree that to feed a child until they naturally stop is fine, to not breastfeed at all is fine, to do so for a shorter period is fine too. Unfortunately once feelings and emotions get involved it doesn't feel as simple as that and hence all the arguments (and some cruel comments sad) and justification where really none is needed at all.

DolomitesDonkey Wed 13-Feb-13 13:56:08

Vile. Anyone who says it isn't about the mother has clearly never had a candid conversation with someone who does this. A pro person on these boards told me it excited her sexually. Gross.

ICBINEG Wed 13-Feb-13 13:58:49

Gold and Oxford Yes I realise the skiing kid thing is worlds away! I never meant to imply otherwise. Just that it niggles.

You are of course totally right that I can benefit and enjoy something that is driven by the benefit and enjoyment my DD gets from it!

I think I may have had a wood-trees-wood moment!

Goldmandra Wed 13-Feb-13 14:08:12

Vile. Anyone who says it isn't about the mother has clearly never had a candid conversation with someone who does this. A pro person on these boards told me it excited her sexually. Gross.

Oh well......we must all be the same then hmm

It is people who make this sort of accusation who are gross.

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Wed 13-Feb-13 14:16:05

As I mentioned earlier I BF my DC's for a year.
At first I did it mainly for their health but I also did it because it was convenient and helped me lose wieght. I liked the closeness but I felt I would have had equal closeness if I had been Bottle feeding.
After 6 months I still did it for health reasons and because it was a quick and effective way to get to sleep at night. I didn't feed them in the day.
The closeness/comforting side of breastfeeding was not at all important to me after a few months. Does that make me a meany!
I had no reservations stopping them BF at a year. I did it cold turkey and I really don't remember any of them minding. They only took a day or so before stopping asking and really didn't seem to miss it. I certainly didn't miss it.

Oh yes Gold, you're all the same. Bloody cloth-nappy, baby-wearing, extended-breastfeeding, lentil-weaving, unconditional-parenting, co-sleeping, elimination-communication, home-educating, home-birth, hypno-birthing, baby-led-weaning, vegan nutters.

And all the formula-feeders, cry-it-out purists, disposable nappy wearers, puree-feeders from 18 weeks, boys-can't-wear-pink buggy lovers, meat-eaters, forward-facing car-seaters, dummy users, baby in own room from one hour old, back to work within 2 weeks.... You're all the same too.

hmm

Did I miss anything out...??

DontEvenThinkAboutIt Wed 13-Feb-13 14:32:42

VisualiseAHorse grin. That is soooooo true.

(I like to think I alright in the middle)

<<boring, middle ground>>

I'm in the middle too - cloth nappies, baby in own room, but co-sleep a lot too, weaned early, done mixed feeding, exclusive BF, formula feeding, baby-wear when I can be bothered. Do a bit of infant potty-training (going quite well). I think most people are in the middle.

5madthings Wed 13-Feb-13 14:51:41

I mainly bfed but have formula fed. I co-sleep and use slings. I also use a pushchair and disposable nappies and did home ed for a while. I am also quite strict, hot on manners and insist my children help out around the house.

There is a perception if you bfeed, co.sleep etc that you are a hippy soft touch parent with no boundaries which is ermm not true!

And bfeeding can give sexual arousal, women can also orgasm in childbirth, its not sick or gross. I never found feeding sexual in fact my breasts were a no go are when feeding but dp is more of a leg and bum man anyway grin

Have to say - always found the hardest part of BF was being sexy in bed with OH, baby cries and then BF baby. Going from sexy to milky in 3 seconds flat is hard on the old brain.
I think a lot of women struggle with finding the thing that 'makes them sexy' useful for feeding their baby too. It is a weird issoo.

5madthings Wed 13-Feb-13 15:12:58

Yes nothing turns you off more than having to interrupt sex to deal with a baby!

5madthings Wed 13-Feb-13 15:15:23

I have no issue seeing my breasts as sexual now I am non longer feeding and even when feeding I still made the most of them 'looked' wise with clothes etc. I have an hourglass figure and large breasts and do wear clothes that make them look good. I just didn't like involving them in sex whilst feeding. Partly as I had oversupply issues and they leaked everwhere at the slightest touch!

Antipag Wed 13-Feb-13 16:33:34

Some people will pay a fortune for leaky boobs during sex 5mad, it seems you have missed your chance at amassing your fortune grin

Dolomites-what an excellent well rounded view supported by extensive research you have presented. Thank you so much for this helpful load of crap opinion.

OxfordBags Wed 13-Feb-13 16:50:39

Dolomites always pops upon threads like this sooner or later, to dispatch her helpful, informative and unhysterical advice. If she thinks is, it must be FACT.

Mind you, I shouldn't say that - I pulled her up on this in a thread around Xmas time and she tried to tell everyone else on the thread I was part of some sinister pregnancy clique who'd been following her round for years on Mn with a vendetta against her hmm I'll probably be upgraded to the Illuminati for this disagreement with her (twirls finger by ear, makes cuckoo noise ).

givemeaname Wed 13-Feb-13 16:52:44

Geniune question from someone thats yet to breastfeed so apologies if i have it wrong, but I always thought if you breastfed then you shouldnt drink alcohol, is that true? If so, do the ebf stay tea total for all those years?
Its an interesting thread.

Theicingontop Wed 13-Feb-13 17:03:06

www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/958.aspx?CategoryID=54

You don't have to be teetotal. Many women choose to be, especially when they're breastfeeding tiny babies, which is totally understandable.

I don't drink often. I'll have the very occasional wine with dinner, or a beer with a curry. But then I wouldn't drink any more than that if I wasn't breastfeeding, so it makes no difference to me.

Antipag Wed 13-Feb-13 17:05:51

Personally I had a couple of glasses of wine when we went out for a meal or something when I was BF (always white as red made my milk pink shock, although some women do abstain totally. Alcohol concentrations in breast milk are similar to those in the mothers blood stream, but on the occasions I did want to go out and knew I would be drinking more heavily, I either expressed for the following day or simply refused to feed. There is no need to pump and dump with alcohol.

EauRouge Wed 13-Feb-13 17:14:44

It's personal choice whether you drink or not. Personally, I say bollocks to being tee-total grin As they get older you don't need to be so careful about drinking and medication. If they are born with cow's milk protein intolerance they are also likely to outgrow it in toddlerhood.

FadBook Wed 13-Feb-13 19:59:09

I drink whilst BF. My 'mantra' is that if I can't look after myself, I can't look after the baby and I used this from the very early days I did drink Guinness and black for 4 nights in a row during the first week on the off the record instruction from a midwife because of low iron and a blood transfusion

So, for me personally a couple of glasses of wine or 1 or 2 vodka and cokes, and I would feed her, but a whole bottle of wine, I'd send DP in to DD with water!

BertieBotts Wed 13-Feb-13 20:23:02

It's an extremely tiny amount of alcohol which gets through to the milk - equivalent to your blood alcohol level (this isn't the same for all drugs - for cannabis for example milk level is 4x blood level, but for alcohol it's 1:1)

So, if somebody was to literally drink your blood, imagine how drunk they'd get off that. Not very smile

This chart is very useful for an estimate. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_level

I did avoid alcohol in the early months as I co-slept and co-sleeping is very dangerous if you've drunk alcohol, but I didn't avoid drinking due to breastfeeding.

chipmonkey Wed 13-Feb-13 22:25:31

Yeah, that vampire that drank my blood last week hardly got pissed at all!wink

BertieBotts Wed 13-Feb-13 22:50:10

grin I know it sounds silly. But often I think people have this perception that what you eat/drink somehow turns into breastmilk when really it's effectively blood with the red cells taken out and more fat and protein. I know I never really thought about what it was until I read something...

FredWorms Wed 13-Feb-13 22:55:17

Stooooooooooop

Antipag, over here!

Red wine made your milk pink?

I love that. That's bonkers. You old hippo you grin

Startail Thu 14-Feb-13 00:33:20

By a year, two years old a child weighs way more than a tiny baby, so I concluded the odd drink and the odd paracetamol were hardly going to amount to a problem. Especially as older DCs feed so much less.

I did avoid aspirin as that is strictly not to be given to DCs under 16

I rarely drink anyway (pre-baby, I only drunk on nights out, maybe 1-2 times a month), so not drinking while BF was fine. I don't think the odd glass of wine will hurt the baby.

I did find however, when taking anti-psychotic tablets (which sent me to sleep for 14 hours straight and left me very dozy the next day), my LO would also be extremely sleepy, and not interested in anything. This was when he was about 4 months old and EBF. Which is why I only took 4 of the 24 I was prescribed!

ICBINEG Thu 14-Feb-13 10:18:22

I like the idea that BM is a bit like specialised highly nutritionally enhanced sweat. Certainly the vast majority of things you put in your mouth do not come out in either your sweat or milk, both of which are made from scratch internally using energy and building blocks taken from food/drink. Similarly to sweat there are some things that do end up in it, sometimes in low ratios but sometimes concentrated up.

So it doesn't matter if you eat organic hand reared, or junk food (clearly it matters to the mum but not to the milk), but alcohol does go though in small amounts and some other things go through in much larger amounts (I have my suspicions about asparagus).

The other variable is the half life of substances in your system. Once you are feeding an older child you have many hours off during the day. So you could take some medicines/drugs and they would be essentially gone by the time you fed again. Again with an older child you are storing milk less and producing more on demand so the amount of any given drug the child will receive is far far less.

However! You should ALWAYS check with your GP as there are always exceptions, and things that can hang around or get preferentially secreted into milk.

OxfordBags Thu 14-Feb-13 11:42:57

I don't drink because I am on long-term meds for health issues and it's contraindicated, so I can't helpon that issue. But when I started Bfing, as now, I just ate what I wanted to eat, then someone told me when he was several months old that you should avoid certain foods when BFing, like spicy stuff, mainly. Well, I like spicy, salty food and I just carried on as before. DS is a very unfussy eater (could this be part of it?!) and I just thought "Well, what about women in cultures where spicy food is the norm?! They don't avoid nearly all their normal food when BFing, surely".

OxfordBags Thu 14-Feb-13 11:43:44

PS I do time my meds to not affect him, even though they are classified as totally fine for BFing.

VikingLady Thu 14-Feb-13 14:12:27

Is it wrong that I now want to drink red wine and express to see my milk go pink? Wow!

Alcohol in low volumes is fine. It's only a couple of hundred years since everyone lived off beer because water wasn't safe and the human race survived.

viking it doesn't do that to mine I must drink cheap stuff

WoTmania Thu 14-Feb-13 14:21:43

YANBU - I'm not going to read the link or comments as they just upset and annoy me. I know a quite a few lovely children who were BF til 4/5/6 and around 5 adults who remember breastfeeding (one remembers tandem nursing with his little sis) and a couple of teenagers who nursed well beyond the 'norm'. They're jsut the ones who've talked about it. All perfectly well-adjusted, happy confident adults/teens/older children.
I let my DC self-wean. It's not more about me and my needs (whatever the fuck that means confused) than my children's needs it's just letting them stop when they've outgrown the need.

BertieBotts Thu 14-Feb-13 15:47:09

I don't know Oxford, I certainly haven't avoided any foods and DS is super-fussy. So I don't think it makes a difference.

EauRouge Thu 14-Feb-13 16:02:57

Red wine has a horrible effect on me but I'm willing to find out how much chocolate you need to eat before your milk becomes chocolate flavoured, in the interests of science and all that <self-sacrificing smiley>

k2togm1 Thu 14-Feb-13 18:24:33

Hi I've been reading with interest.
eaurouge I've conducted that experiment with no success... Yet.

I was also told not to eat garlic, no way I'm doing without it, or chillies and spices, and ds, although jot a great eater he likes strong flavours. Not sure if related, or more to do with eating tons of kimchi when pregnant shock

Funny attitudes, during the first 18 months bfing was def for both of us, it was the only thing I didn't 'fail' at; now I'd happily stop, but ds thinks otherwise. I just wish he would keep it a bit more private, instead he demands it anywhere anytime...

VikingLady Mon 18-Feb-13 08:48:42

DD is happy to feed from me after garlic, strong curries - anything really.

ICBINEG Mon 18-Feb-13 19:32:33

Gah! Don't ask, don't refuse is NOT working out well for me!

DD is opting for nothing 1 day then 3 feeds the next then nothing....my boobs hurt!

Goldmandra Tue 19-Feb-13 09:13:18

I see nothing wrong with making a BF part of your normal routine and offering it at the appropriate time. You don't worry about offering other food and drinks throughout the day so why bmilk?

If don't offer/don't refuse isn't working for you it isn't working for your DD either. You would be doing noting wrong by changing your approach for your own comfort! smile

ICBINEG Tue 19-Feb-13 09:18:18

Yup went with suggesting milk last night. very very gentle suggestion.

Got mugged for milk this morning too.

I hadn't realised how much I will miss it!

Goldmandra Tue 19-Feb-13 09:55:50

smile

Trust yourself. You are a really good mum who is doing the very best she can for her child.

I still miss it a bit now and then 6 years later. It was a very special time for me and the DDs.

Enjoy it because you both deserve to.

OxfordBags Tue 19-Feb-13 11:15:54

ICBINEG, she enjoys it, you enjoy it, I don't understand your focus on cutting down and so forth. It's a very special thing, when it's working well and you can't have it again when she's older, so just go with the flow (sorry for the pun!), trust your instincts and don't worry about what you 'should' be doing. You sound really thoughtful and caring, you just enjoy nursing that lovely girl smile

Dahlen Tue 19-Feb-13 11:24:45

It's been fascinating reading this thread and seeing the different opinions. I BF my DC until weaning. Extending it would not have been an option for me and TBH I was glad to 'reclaim' my body (as I felt about it at the time).

But I'd have no problem with any mother choosing to extend BFing. It's something that evolution has adapted women and children's body for, after all. How on earth can it be wrong?

Wet nursing is far more complicated, but I'd imagine that it's impossible to make a blanket judgement anyway. Every instance of it will be different in some way.

Ultimately, we are fortunate to live in a world where FF offers a real, high-quality alternative to BFing for those unable/unwilling to do it for whatever reason. Every mother is different, every child is different. There is no right or wrong in any of this, just choices. Live and let live.

WoTmania Tue 19-Feb-13 13:20:26

Dahlen - I'm not understanding your post very well. When you say breastfeeding til weaning are you talking about starting solids or weaning from the breast? I also breastfed my DC until weaning, the one currently nursing is nearly four...

WoTmania Tue 19-Feb-13 13:26:14

ICBINEG have you read how weaning happens it's an excellent book with plenty of info on how to wean gently and with love.
It might also be worth going to a local LLL group - they might have some ideas for cutting down or experiences of compromises they've reached (nursing for a certain amount of time at a time, or limiting to certain times in the day, some mothers find delaying works well)

5madthings Tue 19-Feb-13 13:26:49

I think she means starting solids as that is known as weaning.

Dahlen Tue 19-Feb-13 13:32:18

I stopped at about 7 months, once my DCs were largely on solid food. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough. I can't say I enjoyed BFing at all and I was delighted to stop. I am happy with my own choices and feel no need to justify them. But I admire women who are happy and able to extend BFing. I may not be able to empathise with their desire, but given that extended BFing is the way our species evolved to feed babies and younger children, I can't see why people think it's 'icky' or 'wrong'.

WoTmania Tue 19-Feb-13 13:44:44

Ah, okay I thought I would double check as I'm more used to starting solids and weaning being completely different things. Personally I don't like the term 'extended' breastfeeding - it sounds like the mother is deliberately prolonging it rather than just taking her DC's cues on when they want to stop.

Absolutely agree with this: 'given that extended BFing is the way our species evolved to feed babies and younger children, I can't see why people think it's 'icky' or 'wrong'
Do what you want, weigh up the risks and pros and cons for yourself, your family and your baby and make your own individual informed choice however don't try and force your ideals onto other people (general 'you' BTW, not specifically you)

EauRouge Tue 19-Feb-13 13:48:28

WoTmania! It seems like ages since I've seen you post, I was wondering if you'd namechanged or something.

I think the whole starting solids/weaning terminology can be very confusing and can lead some people to think that once you start solids then you need to wind down the milk feeds. Even HCPs can get the two confused. Weaning as a process can go on for years.

WoTmania Tue 19-Feb-13 13:55:39

I had indeed NC'd, however the final WoT book came out a month ago and I changed back in honour grin

And yy to the confusion surrounding solids/weaning I've had to support quite a few mothers recently complaining about bad info re: number of breastfeeds once the are in the middle of the first year.
And it can be such a slow process: DS2 weaned incredibly gradually to the point I wasn't sure he'd stopped; he went from nursing 2-5 times a day to asking every couple of weeks over a 9 month period. I suddenly realised one day that he hadn't asked in a couple of months and that was that. No sign of the DD stopping yet although she has once gone all day without asking and stay with my parents overnight ever couple of months.

Goldmandra Tue 19-Feb-13 16:12:30

The thing is I don't think there is anything to admire in what I did.

I didn't persevere with anything. If I hadn't liked it I probably would have stopped quite early on.

I did it because it was working well, it was easy, we both enjoyed it and there was no reason to stop.

For me expended BFin was a passive process in that I would have had to make a decision and take some action in order to end it sooner.

I think that's what some people don't get. It was a natural process fur us and there was no need to interfere with it. I certainly don't deserve any kudos for it.

WoTmania Wed 20-Feb-13 10:17:55

Goldmandra - agree, making them stop would have been far more effort and heartache (for DC) than letting the process complete itself.

FadBook Wed 20-Feb-13 11:35:57