AIBU to fucking hate the stuff?
I have seen young people change from ambitious, clever intelligent people to gormless idiots who don't give a shit about anything.
And I hate that my do smokes it
I particularly despise this homegrown shite which seriously fucks you up.
Why oh why do people use it?
And AIBU to tell dp not to have anything to do with it any more or is that me being too bossy/controlling?
I couldn't live with an addict. Tell him to grow up or get out.
But you will get a whole host of people who will claim it does no harm.
My ex was on it. Vile stuff. Ruined his life.
He is by no means an addict. I think. I just don't get why people do it. Someone defend it, I want to understand.
Nope yanbu. I was talking to dp about this earlier on actually.
I'm not actually particularly anti drugs either, I just think weed turns people into boring, lazy, drooling idiots!
And it way not be physically addictive but i've seen good friends crawling up the wall for it before, especially now its laced with PCP or whatever other junk they're coating it with now!
It ruined my brother's life.
OP, what's he like when he hasn't had any?
I have worked with people who have developed drug induced psychosis from smoking skunk and I have some very close family members who's lives have been ruined by their daily use of weed.
He is fine without it.
I am fairly open minded and can understand the pros and cons of most recreational drugs but weed, no. It is gross.
I think those that defend it really don't understand the sheer destructive nature of it on the sensitive human brain
EVERY time you have a joint a few brain cells are killed off, regular use can lead to huge changes in some people, some more obvious than others. Which is why it is seen as a soft "safe" drug.
But if you listen to neuro-psychologists and neurologists it is a very distructive drug long term and we are now seeing the results in a huge increase in MH problems in our young.
If he isn't an addict what is the issue you have?
Well I suppose he uses it because he enjoys the feeling it gives him. I think that's the bottom line with a lot of drugs. Problem is that unless you can be very disciplined and only smoke it very occasionally, it's easy to to smoke it more and more and care less about everything else.
Noddy I going to have a really good think and type a decent answer later.
To those of you listing the damage it can do - are you aware of the far, far worse damage that alcohol can do?
I think weed should be legalised for the simple reason that it - while not 100% safe - is still considerably safer than alcohol.
My mother died an alcoholic at the age of 34. If she'd stuck to dope, she'd probably still be alive.
Bottom line - if you're bothered about the number of brain cells marijuana kills off and the way it impacts on behaviour & personality, why don't you have the same concerns about alcohol?
I think you have to define between a person who uses weed, and an addict. It is the same as the difference between a social drinker and an alcoholic. When you use a substance, any substance, to excess, when it interferes with your normal life and pursuits, or when it changes your personality, you have crossed the line into being an addict, and unfortunately the person affected is usually the last to know.
There is also virtually no support in this country for people in this situation; would you consider going to your GP if you suspected you were addicted to weed, or would you be so scared of losing your children, job and home for breaking the law that you wouldn't seek help? My uncle was a psychiatric nurse in Canada and it is much easier to seek help for addiction problems over there because cannabis is decriminalised for medical use and doesn't attract the huge social stigma it does here.
If you hate your partner's habit, I think you have to let him know. If he is using to excess and you find it interfering in your family life, I think you are within your rights to ask him to give it up, or limit use to times when he is not with you or your children. If he refuses, then point out that inability to manage without a substance is the definition of addictive behaviour, and he is therefore an addict. Use that statement to shock him into examining his own behaviour; I don't imagine you would have posted if him taking weed wasn't significantly altering his behaviour.
Yanbu. I have seen several lads amount to nothing because because of it.
YANBU - I wouldn't like to live with someone who used it regularly. Are you sure there's no dependency? How often does he use it? Does he use it in response to difficult life events? Is he more bad-tempered and irritable if he hasn't used it?
I used to love mary jane
I smoked every day for over 7 years, gave it up one day about 7 years ago, and have lost the taste for intoxication.
Of course drug use can be problematic, but I dont think there is anything inherently wrong with wanting to get high
I agree that there are social & habitual pot smokers, much like alcohol.
Pot addiction is no joke.
if someone 'amounts to nothing' it seems unreasonable to blame just one aspect of their life!
Honestly you lot are hilarious. Its no worse than alcohol. I dislike drunk people and stoned people but this idea that weed is responsible for ruining peoples lived is quite frankly bullshit. People choose to stay home and smoke weed instead of going to work/ college/ whatever because they want to, because they like doing that more than working/ learning. I don't disagree that it is detrimental to some peoples health but only those who are predisposed to NH issues. Stop blaming the drug, its peoples own frailties that cause them to fuck up, not a bit of plant matter rolled up into a spliff.
I don't think weed is necessarily worse than alcohol per se. And I don't have a problem with people who want to use it. However, in my experience it's not much fun spending time with someone who is stoned, if you are not stoned yourself. It's actually pretty miserable. So for this reason, if my DP were doing it regularly I would definitely ask him to stop or cut way back for the sake of our relationship. YANBU.
YANBU to hate it. YABU in your general sweeping statements that may not represent the majority of either dope smokers or the quality of homegrown weed. Though I agree that some hybrid varieties are scary in their potency.
And what Ellie said!
I've seen young people turn into gormless idiots after prolonged smoking. I've seen young people continue to be intelligent, ambitious, motivated and successful while smoking. It's unreasonable to make such sweeping generalisations, when not everyone is affected in the same way.
I much prefer the "homegrown shite" to anything imported, because I know its production hasn't funded the international drug trade, and I know nothing's been added to it. Not convinced homegrown stuff fucks one up more than imported stuff; could you clarify what you mean by that?
Most of the people I know who use it find it helps them to relax, or it helps them to sleep. Person A, crippling arthritis, smokes a little at bedtime because otherwise the pain's so bad he can't sleep. Person B, suffers night terrors, wakes her partner up screaming sometimes. Smoke before bed and she sleeps fine.
You're not being unreasonable to want a partner who doesn't smoke weed, though. It's entirely your decision. Just bear in mind that you can only change whether he's your partner, not whether he chooses to smoke. Telling him he can't smoke it any more is indeed bossy and controlling, and he'd be well within his rights to tell you to sod off. Having a conversation in which you make it clear that you don't like him smoking and see if he's willing to stop would be a much better idea.
im not keen on stoned morons either, any more than i am keen on drunk idiots or coked up arseholes.
Doesnt mean that the odd participation in something = bad mmmkay
That's not an unreasonable comment riverboat but I worked in a bar for years, believe me drunk people are far more annoying than stoned people, and more dangerous, and ruder, and more violent.
If my DH smoked weed every night to the point he was incapable of conversation, or drank so much every night he was pissed. It would be an issue.
As it happens I won't divorce him over a couple glasses of wine, and he only doesn't smoke weed because a) he's quit smoking and b) it's illegal and c) it's not worth the risk of the children thinking they've found some chocolate and eating it! (Actually that wouldn't happen with grass, they'd leave that, it looks like vegetable)
for me the only bad thing about cannabis was that it massively increased my desire to eat bsicuits and ice cream, along with anything else I could lay my hands on
Obviously someone who's stoned isnt the best company when you're not stoned, and as a polite respectful person I wouldnt have subjected other people to my stoned moronic self!
aldiwhore - yes, don't think it's much fun to be around a drunk person either if you're not drunk yourself! It does seem to me though that most people can have a pint or a couple of glasses of wine without it being really noticeable in their behaviour, whereas after just one joint the effects are more noticeable...that slightly glazed look in the eyes, the feeling that the person is not totally on the same plane as you any more. This is just my experience though based on a few different close friends who have smoked, maybe they weren't the norm!
Just to provide further opposition to the Op, I'd have never completed my philosophy degree if I'd not been stoned when writing my dissertation (I would have failed had I not be straight when I proof read it).
I'm of the opinion that the only way to tackle the awful depency some people have on illegal drugs is to decriminalise all drugs, and make it a public health issue rather than a criminal one.
If people could freely grow their own, they wouldn't need to participate in funding some of the atrocities related to the drug trade.
Riverboat That may be down to tolerance though. I very rarely drink, but if I have even one glass of wine, the effects are noticeable quite quickly. Whereas some of my friends have to have several glasses before tipsiness sets in. I think it's probably the same with weed.
I have a 16 year old son. Now, I would never actively encourage him to do anything - but secretly, if it was up to me, I would far, far, far rather he was getting gently stoned in his bedroom with a couple of mates than in the town centre knocking back cans of Special Brew.
My next-door neighbours and their dozens of daily visitors smoke it.
I hate the smell it makes me feel sick and it seems to seep through the walls so you can smell it our house!! Visitors to us have remarked on it. What worries me is the two small children in the house. It can't be doing them any good.
I can be shopping,e.g. in the supermarket, and the smell carries on people. I was at a school parents consultation evening, and the parents of a girl,( who is known to be a pita ) reeked of it. I thought I was going to throw up!
I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to smoke it, we're all adults after all.
I think its a bit silly to say things like 'its no worse than alcohol' as I'm not sure that anyone said it was.
I have no problem with recriational drug use, I just don't like the effect that weed has on people, I'm sure those who live with people who over use alcohol feel exactly the same about that.
I agree with aldiwhore.
Alcohol, tobacco and prescription drugs are all regulated and dispensed by licensed professionals as should cannabis as far as I am concerned. If an adult is going to use any of these products then they should be entitled to do so.
Protecting children and adolescents from getting hold of it should be the main concern. However as it currently stands any street dealer will only ever ask to see a note with the Queen's head on it. If it were decriminalised and regulated with age restrictions 'licensed dealers' should be made to ask for a proof of age/ID before making a sale.
I hate weed really because I have seen it destroy ambition in many, many people. I think that because it is seen as a soft drug and no worse - or even bit as bad as - alcohol that it gradually seeps into people's lives and fucks them up, before they realise it. I have seen it send people mad but that is rarer, no less awful obviously but much more blatant. It's the way that it subtly but stealthily creeps into people that I particularly dislike.
I hate the homegrown stuff because it is so damn strong so having a few tokes on a joint involves taking a huge load of THC into your body, whereas most people think a puff or 2 is nothing.
I hate that dp does it because it is illegal, it smells vile, I don't like coming downstairs in the morning to find a grumpy man with bloodshot eyes, surrounded by empty chocolate wrappers from where he can't control the munchies. I can not understand why he smokes a Mind altering, depressive substance whilst taking medication for depression!
I'm not a total idiot - I wouldn't be with him if he smoked it round our kids and he only smokes it when I am in bed or out or when he's out.
I hope this covers all points. Back later.
I think its a bit silly to say things like 'its no worse than alcohol' as I'm not sure that anyone said it was
You've missed the point. If people's objection to marijuana is that it affects behaviour and kills off brain cells, then why don't they have the same objection to alcohol - a drug that does both of these things in far greater measure?
What's "silly" is that the more dangerous, potentially deadly drug is legal while the other, far more benign one is not. By allowing this odd situation to continue as a society we are indeed saying that marijuana is somehow "worse" than alcohol. So, you're not correct.
ive known plenty of dealers over the course of my life, and ive never known any that would sell to children. Im sure they do exist, but the majority are just normal people who sell a bit on the side to pay for their own smoke. Its not even particularly lucrative unless youre quite high up the chain.
What does street dealer mean?? Someone who sells in the street?? The only time ive ever had that happen was in amsterdam
Oh I nearly forgot: I don't agree with excess alcohol either but I never said I did. It's just this thread is about dope, rather than alcohol.
I don't understand why people always are so quick to mention the dangers of alcohol as soon as anyone mentions weed.
I smoke blow.
Why? I like it. It makes me feel relaxed and good humoured. It suits me.
I don't drink alcohol very much at all. I find it doesn't suit me.
after years of insomnia, i find its the only thing that reliably gets me off to sleep with no next day hangover. I think its wonderful.
I dont sit there and get stoned and act moronic though. I think its a wonder drug
I don't know anyone who turns into a moron after a smoke. Unless they were morons to begin with of course.
formally: I hate the homegrown stuff because it is so damn strong...
Whether its homegrown or commercial grown makes no difference to it's THC strength. Its down to the strain and and whether its an indica plant or a sativa plant.
I only smoke 'solid'. I'm old skool. I don't like grass. It tastes and smells horrid to me.
Alcohol in quantity does untold damage too, no one is disputing that . it is not an either /or and the campaigns to increase alcohol awareness are well docmented.
But the damage done by ONE joint is worse than ONE glass of wine. Frequent use of weed is more cumualtive as it has a greater irreversible effect on the brain, as I understand it, forfar smaller quantities.
You can enjoy the odd glass of wine, without damage.
This is not just my personal opinion but having listened to senior neuro scientists.
If you want to smoke dope & it (apparently) seems to have no effect then go ahead, but many many youngsters are harmed by it.
From my pov, the worst thing about it is the smoking.
Just had to post. My partner of 12 years has up until the last few months always smoked weed recreationally. In my opinion, the weed definitely affected his enthusiasm to do anything active. He would rather hang around the house smoking than go out for walks and do things at the weekend. He would always hang around with fellow weed toting friends and I honestly believe he was only friends with them purely because he would go and buy the weed through them. It would get to the point where he was spending easily £100 a month buying weed, sometimes more. He would get extremely aggravated when he had run out of weed and as he knew I didn't approve of him smoking, he would often lie about where he was going and nip off to buy weed from one of his dodgy friends. Him smoking weed definitely had a detrimental affect on our relationship, I could sometimes tell when we were spending time together that he was desperate to cut time with me short to nip and smoke some more weed. When I got pregnant, he promised to quit smoking as I didn't want s oking around the children. He made various attempts to quit some of which lasted for several weeks or months but he would always find the addiction too difficult to overcome.
Things came to a head a few months ago, when I got sick of his dire mood swings and the amount of money he was spending on weed. He finally took note of what I was saying and admitted that weed was affecting him more negatively than he had originally realised. He has not smoked weed for several months now, which is fantastic and already it really is like living with a different person, less mood swings, less anger and agitation. He has however swapped smoking the weed with smoking cigarettes as we began to realise that perhaps it wasn't always the weed he was addicted to but the tobacco in the spliff. We know this isn't exactly ideal and are looking at getting him E-lights to hopefully reduce the harm that smoking fags cause.
I must point out, however that throughout all of this, he has always held down a full time job and it may or may not be coincidence, but since quitting smoking the weed, he got motivated to get a new job at double his salary!
I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that he has the strength and willpower to keep off the weed.
I don't understand why people always are so quick to mention the dangers of alcohol as soon as anyone mentions weed
Erm.....I was responding to the post that was trying to point out all the "dangers" of marijuana.
And I have known rather a lot of dope smokers and none of them have had their lives "ruined" by it, or lost their ambition. I've certainly never known anyone who's been sent "mad", whatever that's supposed to mean.
But you're sharing your life and home with someone who's behaving in a way that's impacting negatively on you. You're entitled to be pissed off about that. I would be too.
Ellie - I'm sure you must be right about the tolerance issue. It makes sense.
Basically, for me it comes down to the fact that while I have no problem with people smoking weed, I don't want to be around them while they do it. If it was just one or two puffs and then stop then yeah I can't imagine it would really be very noticeable, but assuming it was going to be more than that, I wouldn't want to be there having a night in/out with them or a conversation or whatever. So by all means smoke, but be aware that it's probably offputting to many who don't partake. Same would go with someone who was getting hammered when no-one else was, or someone droning on about politics when others weren't interested, or someone smoking regular cigarettes in a group of non-smokers, or someone bringing their baby to a girls night out...
If you smoke weed alone, with other weed smokers or with people who genuinely don't find it offputting, then I can't see what the problem is providing it's not being smoked to regular excess.
I have seen a friend who smoked weed regularly go into a downwards spiral, but I don't think I could say it was because of the weed, more that she was unhappy with other things in her life and started to use weed too much as an escape and an 'instant relaxation' type of thing. Once she left the bad relationship and bad job she stopped the weed too. But then again, I know others who have the odd joint now and then and it certainly doesn't seem to have any negative effect on their life as a whole. Horses for courses.
Never seen anyone smoke a joint then go start a fight in the town centre either! In fact, weed should replace alcohol by law - imagine how much more time the police would have to deal with real crime instead of scooping up drunken fuckwits from stone pavements.
Frightening links between weed and psychosis.
Just because alcohol is also crap for you doesn't make weed ok.
Thank you * Hermione* succinctly put!
I do have a problem with weed insofar as the image it has is that of an age of free love and hippies, the reality is of course is that it is big business and, not unlike tesco burgers, you never truly know what your getting.
My problem is that as there is a perception that we have lost the war on drugs we should legalise them which I really don't think is quite in our national interest.
hermione Just because alcohol is also crap for you doesn't make weed ok.
Is medical marijuana not ok then?
hermione there may be links but we need to distinguish cause from correlation..I smoked myself into a coma every night for years, I'm absolutely fine
I'm not denying that drugs can be problematic, or suggesting that there are any easy solutions, but some people enjoy getting intoxicated..is it such a bad thing?
I'm intelligent, ambitious and motivated. I used to smoke a fair bit of weed. Like anythig, too much is bad for you, and for a small number of people, any at all is too much. But for most of us, its just something we like to do that is not at all harmful in moderation. Like alcohol.
no need for the hysteria about it.
throughout history and in pretty much every culture people have wanted to get intoxicated. I don't see why it should be alcohol or nothing. I can't bear getting drunk. I don't see why the fact that i prefer a wee smoke should make me criminal. Im not hurting anyone
Frightening links between weed and psychosis Not proven & disputed by a lot of scientists. And even if it were proven true, it's extremely rare.
Nothing, but nothing, is without risk. 500 people a year die taking aspirin. 20 people a year die putting on their socks. A similar number die being electrocuted by their alarm clocks. How many die falling down the stairs?
The simple fact of the matter, whether you like it or you don't, is that marijuana use has very few risks associated with it - nowhere near enough to justify keeping it illegal. It's impossible to overdose from, and it is not physically addictive in the way that alcohol & nicotine are (although people can become dependant on it which is not quite the same thing).
And the 1 joint vs one unit of alcohol causing brain changes is absolute crap. In fact, studies have shown that teenagers drinking 5 units of alcohol a week for 18 months showed evidence of altered brain matter, while those smoking marijuana for the same amount of time showed absolutely none.
This reason that the alcohol vs weed thing is continually brought up is that those of you raising the "risks" of weed seem willing to ignore exactly the same risks with alcohol. Which shows that you've bought into the "weed is immoral and bad" idea & are seeking to justify it with evidence that doesn't exist.
Is there a safe drug? Weather it is alcohol, weed, MDMA - they all have side affects and surely you can get addicted to them all?
so shouldn't of out the xx on! Blame the emails I have just been doing....
The stuff my dad used to have was fine, would just chill him out and give my mum the giggles and then the munchies. 70's/80's.
The shit that's on sale now is really fucking scary stuff. A few drags on half a joint and I couldn't concentrate on forming a sentence in my head - let alone say it out loud. I haven't been near it since and don't want to. It scared me.
IT's ruined a lot of people I know who used to be fine before. I don't know if it's the habbit or the actual stuff they supply now - either way, it's no laughing matter and needs to be delt with harshly.
DH smoked weed daily from his early teens until about a month ago. He's got a good, stable job which he's very good at, plays sports twice a week, is happy to plan and take part in activities, and doesn't seem to have suffered any ill-effects at all. We're now TTC, so he decided all by himself that he'd stop in case it was affecting his sperm quality, and he hasn't had one since. He hasn't shown any ill-effects.
I smoked a lot in my younger days, but then moved towns for work and didn't know where to get it, and didn't bother to find out. After a little while I noticed that I was less anxious and came off anti-depressants. I think it's likely that the two are linked, so I haven't taken it up again.
I don't have a problem with other people doing it, but it doesn't suit me.
"I can not understand why he smokes a mind altering, depressive substance while taking medication for depression!"
I'm not sure if this has been said already, but when something is referred to as being a depressive (as apposed to a stimulant) it means that it depresses things like your heart rate or blood sugar etc and not your mood.
Also, cannabis is prescribed for depression, among other things, in the state of California.
Well, there's been a fair amount of crap posted on this thread, but I would love to see the evidence that cannabis is perscribed for depression in California.
The difference as I see it in cannabis use in young teenagers, vs alcohol, is that I have never yet seen a 14 year old standing waiting for the school bus at 8 am drinking vodka. Alcohol tends to be weekend use only, cannabis can rapidly become an all-day every-day habit.
And, for those who say it is harmless, here is an article and here is one of many studies.
If you ask any mh professional working with teenagers these days, they will tell you that cannabis is used on a daily basis by almost every teenager they come across.
And in addition, you have to realise that all these studies showing the effects on teenagers have been done over a series of years. this one began over 20 year ago, when the quantity of cannibis used was on average much lower, and the strength was certainly nothing like it is today.
Maryz Well, there's been a fair amount of crap posted on this thread, but I would love to see the evidence that cannabis is perscribed for depression in California.
Full list of the 18 states that prescribe medical marijuana
Cannabis is also prescribed here in the UK for MS sufferers More info here
Yes, but where does it say it is prescibed for depression in California?
As oppose to being used by people who have depression and think it helps them?
And I know it is prescribed in the UK for MS, for pain relief. But then, morphine is prescribed in the UK and you wouldn't suggest that a few ml on a Saturday night to relax you would do no harm. Or would you?
I think it is fairly common knowledge that it is, I can find a link if you really want, but I'm sure a quick Google would show up a wealth of evidence. Also, before you pass judgement on me, I don't smoke it, and I think its a waste of time and money, but that's just my opinion, what isn't a matter of opinion however is that there is next to no proof that cannabis causes depression.
Have you read the BMJ article I just linked to?
Frequent cannabis use in teenage girls predicts later depression and anxiety, with daily users carrying the highest risk. Given recent increasing levels of cannabis use, measures to reduce frequent and heavy recreational use seem warranted."
Cannabis is not helpful for depression - I work with drug addiction and mental health. I cannot carry out the usual recommended psychological treatments for depression until a client has reduced their cannabis use. It exacerbates problems with social functioning and also masks the underlying issues, as does alcohol and many other drugs.
Frequent cannabis use in teenage girls predicts later depression and anxiety
All the more reason for it to be regulated with age restrictions like alcohol is. It would be a lot harder for adolescents to get hold of it if there were a licensed vendor in the way.
Ah, come on. That looks like one
nutter person prescribing cannabis for anything . I mean, it looks like he is giving it to people who are schizophrenic, which surely anyone with half a brain would realise wasn't helpful.
That's the problem with the web. Personally I would like to take my facts from the BMJ and The New Scientist, not from pro-cannabis website writers, who just might not be 100% neutral on the matter.
You really think the alcohol age restrictions are working well, do you tiny?
I didn't read the link, but having researched the subject fairly extensively in the past I will say that it is a common mis-conception that correlation equates to causation, this is not true. To put it simply heavy cannabis use does not definitively lead to depression, although depression does often cause heavy cannabis use.
If the age restrictions weren't there for alcohol there would be thousands more adolescents drinking it than there are now.
I smoke a single split every night (apart from when away from home).
I have a good job, I'm a neuroscientist and three small children.
I'm I an addict - probably me. Does it bother me - no. Does it impact my life - no.
I smoke to unwind and sleep and enjoy it. My life is hard and it's one of my small pleasures
I have an ex who regularly shits himself can only control his anger issues if stoned and presents himself as psychotic to anybody who matters.
He only ever uses weed.
You can't be bothered to read the link, but you know better. Right .
this would be an interesting one for you to not read too .
The upshot is that they may not have yet been able to prove that cannabis directly causes psychosis and mh issues, but there is mounting evidence that the correlation between the two is strong, and getting stronger.
I remember my grandfather who smoked like a trooper producing paper after paper saying that cigarette smoking didn't cause lung cancer. It took years after they originally thought it might to prove that it did. I suspect the same will be true of cannabis and mh issues.
And I'm not talking about the person who has a joint or two on a Saturday night. Like someone who has a couple of glasses of wine, it may do them no harm. I am talking about people who use large quantities daily, and those numbers are increasing at a scary rate.
But of course (like the smokers in the '70s), there will always be those who put their heads in the sand.
My anger is directed purely at those who tell teenagers, either in person or online, that cannabis will do them no harm. It will do some of them a lot of harm .
That article is from 1985
not really fair to give out to people for not reading articles that are unavailable online? I'd give it a read but I don't actually have any 30 year old scandinavian psychology journals around, sorry.
Maryz My anger is directed purely at those who tell teenagers, either in person or online, that cannabis will do them no harm. It will do some of them a lot of harm
I agree with you. More should be done to make this less accessible to children. But adults should able to make the choice with an informed decision.
Very odd. Why is the debate about this suddenly focused on adolescents?
Do you think anyone advocates allowing under 18s to smoke it, MaryZ? That would be extremely irresponsible - as would allowing them to drink and smoke etc.....so we, er, don't.
Using ANY substance under a certain age when your brain is still developing may cause harm. Smoking cigarettes & drinking alcohol has a similar (and worse) effect on youngsters. But this fact doesn't mean that anyone sensible means these things should be outlawed for everybody. Aspirin is not recommended for anyone under 16 - should we stop people over that age from having access to it too?
For adults, smoking dope is less harmful than nicotine or alcohol. This is a fact. Sorry - just is. Therefore there is no sensible reason for it to be illegal when alcohol & nicotine are not.
By the way, 80% of schizophrenics smoke cigarettes compared to 20% of the general population. There's no suggestion that smoking causes this illness - it may be that the illness causes the smoking. I suspect the same may be true of the psychosis issue. It's been found that psychosis amongst weed smokers occurs in people with a genetic pre-disposition, which is why the "cannabis causes psychosis" claim is a very shaky proposition currently.
And "harm" doesn't just mean lowering the IQ by 8 points (allegedly) - it means risk of overdose, disruption to society, aggression to others caused by changes in behaviour.
How many people who have smoked dope get into fights on a Saturday night? Almost none. It's a nightly occurrence in every town in the UK with alcohol.
How many teens (or anyone) die of cannabis overdoses? Not a single one, ever. Alcohol? Countless.
So please, can we leave out the "who will think of the children?" crap? This is a debate about whether adults should be allowed to make their own minds up about what substances they ingest and derailing it with emotive wails about youngsters is a massive red herring.
Yes, I know what I said about my own 16 year old son. I don't want him to take or use ANYTHING. If I found him with fags, alcohol or cannabis I'd confiscate, ground & punish. But, if a gun was held to my head and I HAD to choose between him drinking or smoking dope - the dope would win every single time.
The reason I am bringing up harm to adolescents is that the increase use of cannabis by teenagers, especially young teenagers, is frightening.
And every teenager you talk to will tell you that it is harmless, that it is not addictive, that it is of huge value in medicine etc etc. They justify its use by quoting chunks from the type of online crap you linked to earlier.
Even in schools, the message given is that heroin and cocaine - dangerous and addictive; cannabis - pretty harmless in the greater scheme of things.
ds has been smoking dope since he was 12. It has destroyed him and his entire peer group in a way alcohol could never have done, because he would have been unlikely to drink 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
It has destroyed his peer group - one boy committed suicide during an psychotic episode brought upon by cannabis, two are in secure mental units atm, one is in jail and one about to go, three were badly injured and one killed in an accident where the driver was stoned (they don't drink drive these days, they drug drive and the police are way behind on testing for that). A few more are homeless. The common factor is cannabis.
And comparing it to alcohol is silly, simply because everyone recognises the harm alcohol does. If alcohol was a new drug on the market it would not be legalised, no-one in their right mind would be trying to legalise it.
Yanbu. I used to smoke it every night and would have told you then that it helped me relax and did no harm. It's only since I've stopped that I can see how mental it made me! I was so paranoid and completely unmotivated when I smoked weed, I would never go back to it.
Dear maryz, I am really sorry to hear what has happened to your son and his peer group. This is exactly what I meant about cannabis when I started this thread and in my subsequent post. Sadly, situations like the one if your son and his peer group are not unusual anymore. Do you have plenty of support for him and yourself?
Thank you for sharing this and best of luck with getting your son back from the clutches of this, most evil, weed.
Just because weed is no more dangerous than alchohol (apparently) does not mean we should legalise it. I hate it personally but then some people hate drink whereas I like it. I still act like a complete knob end when I drink to excess on a bad mood and I have probably fucked up a few fragile relationships due to booze but that's preferable to spending the whole of Glastonbury many years ago stoned and too paranoid to stick my head of the tent door! If I was drunk I'd have had a great time! Different horses for different courses.
Plus I don't think it's any coincidence that many people on weed are heavily into the conspiracy theory culture; paranoia gone mad!
My exdp has gone from a lovely caring person to a narcacist smoking that crap. He now has a police record and hates the world. He emotionally hurts his DC on a weekly basis
I wish he'd never touched that stuff and stayed the man I fell in love with.
I'm sure that there are many weed related deaths just as there are many booze related deaths. Plus most people use tobacco and smoke spliffs instead of using it in bongs and eating hash cakes so lung cancer could be by product of smoking the stuff. Most people know the risks of taking drugs and do it anyway. I know the risks of booze but it takes the edge of life for me and that's why people smoke weed. We all need a drug of some sort. The danger is when we live in denial of the risks and it hurts the people around us aswell as ourselves.
For me it is the hallucinogens such as lsd and magic mushrooms that are some of the most dangerous mind fuckery drugs. I should know; I've tried them and ended up very ill as a result.
shrooms are good!
As a 20+ years all-day dope smoker I know what smoking does & does not do to people. For a lot of people like me it had no negative effects, though it can exaggerate some traits like laziness (the lack of motivation people bang on about) - but only if it's in your nature in the first place. However, for some it does have a seriously negative effect. It entirely depends on the individual. I don't believe it is the actual cause of MH problems, but if there is the potential for eg psychosis or paranoia in a person, if it's in their character, then regular smoking of dope will certainly contribute to it in a big way.
When my ex had a breakdown I banned him from smoking - i had by then not smoked myself for a several years since I had children. He continued to smoke on the quiet and believe me it didn't help. I can see with hindsight that the MH issues were there all along, and whilst the dope masked that it also assisted in eventually bringing it all out. Rather insiduous that: dope camouflaging the problem and appearing to make him feel better, whilst slowly brewing up a MH storm that he could no longer control. We are no longer together.
Never seen anyone smoke a joint then go start a fight in the town centre either! In fact, weed should replace alcohol by law
I remember in Euro 2000 which was played in the Netherlands, England were, quelle surprise, knocked out of the tournament by Romania and the news correspondent was giving it the big 'tragedy, distraught fans shite' until they came to interview some England fans in Amsterdam who were too caned to give much of a toss, I think one of them managed 'well these things happen' and gave a half heared shrug.
Yes, spotty, and also while the person is smoking dope they can't get help for their mh problems, because even if they can be persuaded to go to a doctor (which they won't because they know the doctor will tell them to stop and they are paranoid about that), the doctor won't prescribe anything to help them until the cannabis is out of their system - which can take up to three weeks. I haven't yet met a heavy user who has managed to stay off for that three weeks, so it becomes a vicious cycle. Even if you want to stop, you can't.
And I've seen someone (my son) go completely ballistic, smash up my house on numerous occasions, pull a knife on me, try to break up a police cell and hit a policeman, all during a cannabis "come-down". After a heavy night of smoking, the after-effects can be paranoia, jitteryness and a resulting psychotic rage.
And he wasn't taking anything else - he was tested and showed positive only for cannabis.
For those of you who can have the odd joint on an evening to "relax" you, fine, great, bully for you. But stop closing your eyes to the harm your drug of choice does to some users.
Not to mention the harm to society that the whole drug culture does and its support for the criminal gang element of society. Your money is supporting that, you know - though you probably don't care.
I'm not closing my eyes to anything, but it doesn't even begin to effect me that way at all. I'm not a bad drunk either, interestingly enough.
So it IS bully for me! Yay!
Why the smiley faces though?
You are entitled to do what you want but why gloat? You have to surely take on board that other people have had bad experiences. I find it belittling when people are speaking very personally.
I was a smoker, and quite a heavy one when i was younger, because my bf etc all smoked.
Obviously i come at it from a different angle these days, at the age of 44, as i don't think my db was helped in his schitzophrenia, smoking it from the age of 14. And i'm not completely comfortable with my kids smoking it now i know the serious mental health problems in my family going back generations. So at some time i'll have to do the 'talk' with them and hope to god they don't do what i did. But at the ned of the day i can't physically stop them.
It scares me now because it is stronger. Definitely. And that means it's more harmful.
I noticed a thread the other day about this - the major issue i have is people walking around the streets smoking it. Go home and do it. What is all that about?
yy, you are lucky.
I suppose it's like me being able to have a glass of wine on a Saturday night, whereas I have a friend who is definitely drinking far too much and seems unable to stop . But I would never say to my kids "alcohol is harmless, you can just have a drink or two", because I know for some people it can be very harmful.
But I keep reiterating the point that some people smoke dope all day every day - I have never seen a schoolchild (or anyone) standing at a bus stop at 8 am drinking a naggin of vodka. Whereas around here it is becoming more and more usual to see people smoking joints openly at all times of day.
Given a choice, if alcohol was new to the market now (or nicotine for that matter) they wouldn't and shouldn't be legalised. So I can't see the justification for legalising cannabis. Except under prescription for selected medical conditions in the same way as morphine and other controlled drugs have medical equivalents.
Do you see my point? Teenagers these days have lessons in school about drugs, and the message they get is "cannabis is pretty harmless" so a lot of them try it. For many, it does no harm, for some it does a massive amount of harm, and they don't know which group they will fall into until it is too late.
The OP asked 'why oh why do people use it?'
I am saying that I use it because I like it and it suits me. That simple truth faces a barrage of questionable information (from both side of the fence), shouting down and long winded lecturing.
I am smiling because my opinion is as simple as it is.
Teenagers these days have lessons in school about drugs, and the message they get is "cannabis is pretty harmless" so a lot of them try it
Do they, though, Mary? Mine didn't. He came home once and declared dramatically, "You are a drug addict, Mum". I was a bit , until he told me it was because of all the caffeine I drink. I think the message he got from those lessons was that no drug is without risk of some kind.
I think schools endeavour to give the facts dispassionately - or at least, that's what they are meant to do.
I have spoken to my DS about alcohol far more than I have cannabis (which I have barely mentioned). This is because of my personal family experience of alcoholism, and it frightens me more. I'm sorry about what you've been though with your DS - if I'd experienced the same thing I'd probably feel as you do.
But my own experience (from my misspent youth, not boring present me) is alcohol = "Who wants a fight?" and cannabis = "Anyone got any Pringles?"
I do think that vulnerable people tend to self-medicate - whether with alcohol or cannabis, or even prescription drugs. So it's often a case of chicken/egg - which came first, the alcoholism or the depression, for example. same with cannabis.
But risk for risk, cannabis is safer, and I think that does matter.
See, for me, cannabis is much, much more dangerous.
I know no teenage/20s alcoholics - well actually, I know one kid who I think is on his way to having a problem.
I know, literally, through my three teenagers, a hundred kids who have what I would consider to have a problem with cannabis, as they smoke it daily.
Maybe it depends where you live. But here, if you see a teenager smoking outside school in the morning, there is a good chance it's a joint, not a bought cigarette.
Tests have shown that cannabis is less physically addictive than caffeine. I drink caffeine daily - I wouldn't say I have a problem with coffee.
You are assuming that use = addiction. Not necessarily the case.
And guess how many of those teenagers you describe will die of a cannabis overdose? Not a single one. As I said up thread, if my mother had been a dope smoker rather than an alcoholic, she'd probably be alive today.
It does concern me that you know so many teens smoking dope. That's not right, and I don't want to imply that i think it is.
Under 18s should not be smoking or drinking for a host of reasons. That's that.
But adults should be free to make the choice.
Maryz Maybe it depends where you live. But here, if you see a teenager smoking outside school in the morning, there is a good chance it's a joint, not a bought cigarette.
So does it not make sense to make it less accessible with regulations rather than a free for all like it is now?
Maryz, I would really appreciate your advice on this. My children are very young at the moment. I really detest weed. I have seen it make people useless selfish lumps. I really regret smoking it, the use of it contributed massively to several "lost years" in my life. When they are older do you think I should tell them this - that I smoked it, that I had a lot of friends who smoked it even more, and it made us massive losers? or do you think the message that would come over would be "even mum smoked dope when young so why not"?
They may not die of a cannabis overdose, Ellie, but lots of them finish school early (get kicked out), don't get onto courses, don't get jobs and waste their lives away. They also give up all their sports and interests and simply spend their whole lives either smoking dope, or trying to get hold of it.
And some of them will die - two of ds's friends so far - as a direct result of cannabis. One by suicide and another in a car crash.
And the "not physically addictive" bit is bollocks - and is gradually being recognised as such. If you see the quiverin, twitching wreck that is my son, with the headaches and insomnia and paranoia that takes him over when he tries to stop, you would never say it wasn't "physically addictive".
I don't know the answer to that, curry. I think it won't matter what you did or do - it's what their friends do that is the deciding factor. If their friends have a couple of ciders on a Saturday night, they will. If their friends smoke dope, they probably will, sadly.
I don't think my younger two will ever try it. They have seen what it has done to ds1.
tiny, I don't think regulating it will make a damn bit of difference to the youngsters, apart from enabling older people to get it more easily and give it to them. Here there is a fantastic racket with older people selling prescription drugs to teenagers as well. In the past ds has had a ready supply of vallium and various diazepam-type drugs.
I wouldn't legalise any of them.
By the way, it doesn't seem to be just where I am - on another thread it was saying that 90% of kids seen by CAHMS with psychosis in Fife are regular cannabis users.
Our local youth drug and alcohol programme tell me that cannabis causes more problems than alcohol and all the other drugs put together.
Whether the mh problems or the cannabis comes first is pretty irrelevant, the end result is the same. Legalising it would be mad.
The interesting bit is the numbers:
The report found that:
The overall number of under-18s accessing specialist substance misuse services has fallen from 21,955 in 2010-11 to 20,688 in 2011-12.
The number treated for problems with class A drugs, such as heroin, cocaine or ecstasy, fell from 770 in 2010-11 to 631 in 2011-12.
The number seeing specialist services for alcohol misuse fell from 7,054 in 2010-11 to 5,884 in 2011-12.
The proportion of under-18s who left specialist services having successfully completed their programme rose to 77% in 2011-12 from 50% five years ago.
The number of cases seen by specialist services for help with cannabis misuse was up from 12,784 in 2010-11 to 13,200 this year.
13,200 kids seeking help for cannabis misuse is an awful lot (more than 2/3rds the total, and many of those using alcohol and hard drugs would also be using cannabis so 23rds is probably an underestimate) - imagine how many are using it but not seeking help.
on another thread it was saying that 90% of kids seen by CAHMS with psychosis in Fife are regular cannabis users Yes - and I suspect they are probably cigarette smokers too. Repeating myself here but 80% of schizophrenics smoke cigarettes. Do you think cigarettes cause schizophrenia then? Or could schizophrenia make people more prone to risky behaviour & self-medicating?
And the very, very few users who develop psychosis have been shown to have a genetic pre-disposition.
I would truly wonder at children seeking help for cannabis addiction - or any addiction. A few may - but I bet the majority have been marched there by their parents who caught them smoking a spliff.
And, according to your report - about 0.4% of the nations children have problems with substance addiction. It should be 0% of course - but 0.4% is not that many. A world away from the hundreds you see standing at the bus stop smoking it every day & having their lives ruined. My life is filled with teenage boys at the moment, and I'm not aware of any of them having that kind of problem. I'm not saying it doesn't happen - your experiences show that clearly it does, but it's not a national epidemic.
The use of the word "may" is very prevalent throughout that article, noticeably. And it's quite clear that it's talking about "skunk". Even the committed dope smokers I know agree that that is bad news.
But we aren't going to agree clearly. I truly, truly hope that your son finds some peace. I don't know the back story but he, and you, are clearly struggling. It's hard enough bringing up a teenage boy without adding that to the mix & I hope he makes it through.
But he has a great mum on his side and that counts for a lot (Sycophant? Moi?)....even if she does have a very odd chocolate hoarding habit *
To any readers/lurkers - this is a joke. *MaryZ doesn't really have a chocolate hoarding habit. Don't want to start any rumours here. Ahem.
With the information you have just given me those statistics tell me that the number of people aware of the dangers of heroin, ecstasy and cocaine are rising so the number of people seeking help are falling. Same goes for alcohol with drink aware campaigns. Which is clearly good news.
Now as for cannabis, the information given to the general public from the government and the media is hugely conflicting. Some say that its a cancer fighting drug, some say its a depressive drug, some say it causes schizophrenia, some say it relieves chronic fatigue symptoms and some say its completely harmless and all of these studies are only very recent because scientists haven't been able to study it properly because of its legal status. Which in turn rises the number of people who try it to find out what it does and then need help because it is harmful to them.
It really does come down to what works for one may not work for another for example your son it clearly wasn't helpful for, however I use Sativex to help relieve my MS symptoms and as far as I can tell, it has changed my life for the better.
Independent scientists should be able to study this drug freely and release all of its findings for the adult general public to make up its own mind if they want to take this drug just like adults do with alcohol.
Well, actually Ellie, we won't mention the stray Christmas selection box I found at the bottom of my wardrobe ...
Seriously though, in some areas cannabis use is a massive and growing problem. And it isn't until you see for yourself the effects on some kids or until you live in an area where it has become scarily predominant, that you really appreciate how awful and how life-destroying it can be.
So I hate the numerous websites saying it does no harm, because the kids read and believe them, because they are stupid.
I do recognise that it could have a medicinal use if it was tested and licensed properly (like other pharmaceutical drugs), but don't think that justifies letting anyone (even adults) self-medicate with it - just as I don't think morphine, or anti-depressants etc should be available without prescription.
of course people have bad experiences. There is no such thing as something that is safe for EVERYONE. Chocolate bars and sugary sweets can haver terrible effects on people suceptible to diabetes. if youre susceptible to schizophrenia, maybe dont smoke dope or take acid. If you have a dodgy liver, dont drink alcohol. Anxiety problems - lay off the double espressos and red bull.
If you don't like weed, don't smoke it and don't be around people who do. If you are ambivalent, then carry on as normal. If you like weed, then toke up and enjoy.
Drug use is not the problem; drug abuse is. And drug abuse should be a medical issue, not a criminal one.
And as usual ( just like with alcohol) the defensiveness here is quite boring!
Its no good for you, makes one talk drivel and wastes money.
In a medical situation, I can see the need...I am tolerant. For any other
excuse reason I think its a stupid lifestyle choice.
Hmm. I just wanted to say that there are large numbers amongst those with mental illness who self-medicate with drugs or alcohol. That one definitely leads to the other is a little tenuous.
Cannabis resin or normal weed (not skunk) is actually relatively harmless, particularly if not smoked.
I know I'd rather people smoked joints than drank alcohol; would rather they had the munchies and rambled on about the universe (marijuana), than pick fights and become aggressive (alcohol)
id rather anxious people had a smoke instead of a valium. id rather insomniacs had a smoke instead of a temazepam. Id rather a depressed person tried a smoke before trying prozac.
its quite often not even recreational. its just one of those things that gets you through the day.
If you're lucky enough to not Need a little helping hand sometimes, or you need a helping hand but have different coping mechanisms to whoever sits next to you, i just don't see how its fair to judge.
I personally really don't like the stuff for a number of reasons. I made some very dangerous decisions and serious mistakes as a young teenager under the influence of cannabis, some of which still have repercussions in my life today, although I concede that these were probably also strongly influenced by the kind of people I was hanging around with (much older, predatory men and criminals, for starters).
I hate the fact that even "innocent" recreational drug use contributes to a much wider web of violence, coercion, criminality, intimidation and fear, but I've seen people get properly flamed for espousing such views here, so I won't labour the point.
As a teacher, I regularly see strong connections between cannabis misuse and dysfunction and disconnection in the lives of both parents and pupils.
I grew up in Sweden, where the anti-cannabis message was incredibly strong and clear in the 80s and 90s; kids "knew" that 1 in 8 of people who experimented with cannabis would be likely to experience some kind of episode of mental ill health, and we grew up believing firmly that cannabis was merely a stepping stone to heroin misuse. True or not, but a powerful deterrent to most.
And as for the point you make, Branleuse (funny, last time I referred specifically to something you'd contributed I was in awestruck agreement, so this is refreshing ), my DP has suffered intermittently and periodically from all of the predicaments you list, and the one thing which is sure to compound (or bring on a bout of) the problem is, without a shadow of a doubt, having a smoke. He has learnt this from bitter experience, hanging out with our dudey neighbour...
Oh boy, I could go ON about this stuff, but think I'll stop now.
Well at the risk of sounding patronising, can I just say Ellie and Maryz that it's bloody refreshing on here to see two people disagree with each other and debate a pretty sensitive issue from opposite viewpoints, and still remain respectful and even affectionate towards each other. I wish more Mumsnet debates were like this!
I have a 19yo dsd who has smoked weed for 3rys, she is jobless, homeless and known to the police.
I also have a 19yo dd who drinks, she is at university.
Wrt the debate that compares aggression in drinkers with that of smokers - I have never seen aggression as frightening as dsd when she is unable to access weed (hence her homeless situation).
I agree with Maryz that one day the truth will come out about this horrific life wasting drug.
That's daft Keepyourknickers
I have a friend who is mid-40s, successful teacher (HOD etc) - has smoked weed regularly since college
I have a friend who went to top schools, top uni, had a great job, wife 'n' two veg etc - is now jobless, homeless and known to the police because he's a drunk.
Your daughters are not a valid representative group for comparing alcohol with weed!
Where did I claim them to be a representative group?!
you cited them as evidence of the difference between weed and alcohol users, i your last post
I meant only to cite the difference between them - not all weed and alcohol users. I don't know all weed and alcohol users, and didn't mean to claim to.
Knickers, was your daughter smoking skunk by any chance? It is not the same as normal hash/weed.
I'm no apologist for weed btw. But I do think alcohol is far more damaging in its short and long-term effects. There is a bit of a tendency on demon-weed threads for alcoholism to be down-played in contrast.
Well, she calls it weed, but sometimes she smells a bit weird. Is it much worse? Cheaper? I'm not sure where she gets the money for it, she can't even be bothered to claim jobseekers.
Greensleeves, I didn't mean to down-play alcoholism, but of my two dcs and one dsd and their friends, drinking seems to be done at the weekends, but weed smoking appears to be daily/ongoing. I know some of them may give up weed, and some of the drinkers may become alcoholics, but the devastation caused to my dsd's life has been very rapid. So I may be slightly biased about weed.
Skunk is far worse, its like weed++++
Weed was a mild drug that turned people into boring idiots. Skunk can cause massive permanent mental health problems, is highly addictive and yes, stinks to high heaven.
Keep she is probably dealing
You know, it would have been nice to say "I'm sorry about your dsd" to Keep rather than telling her to keep her knickers on.
I doubt anyone would comment on someone who was worried about an alcoholic dsd by saying "keep your knickers on, I know someone who drinks and has a successful life, heroin is much worse you know".
A bit of manners and some sympathy never go astray.
No-one here, in this entire thread has said that alcohol is safe, or that alcohol doesn't cause problems. I have said a number of times that if alcohol was currently illegal no-one would be campaigning to make it legal or to make it more available or setting up websites to convince others that it is a harmless drug.
Skunk is in my opinion a completely different drug to resin/normal grass. It is processed to be much, much stronger and has been linked to mental health conditions. I wish drugs education would highlight this fact because people lump skunk and other types of marihuana into the same category which is at best misleading and at worst dangerous.
Skunk is unfortunately the weed of choice amongst young people generally now. It really is different to the normal types of weed/resin. One way to tell if it is skunk is that it is very pungent indeed and also whacks people out in a way other types of normal weed/resin don't.
Yes, I suspect what ds and his friends call weed is actually skunk .
Can I just say, we stoners are not all terrible people!
I'm sure there's plenty of idiots that do it, just like with other things, but some of us are just minding our own business and chilling in a evening. Alike to many people that have a couple of glasses of wine.
Yes kids doing it is terrible, and all the dealers I use would never sell to kids. They also just do it to fund their own smoke.
Some of us are just plodding along in life, holding together a family, home, decent etc.
I'm not trying to cause a row, and I'm sure many people ruin their lives doing many different things, but we are not all the same. Suppose its all about priorities, our bills are paid, children want for nothing and everyone's happy with their lot.
The main problem I have is with biscuit consumption!
DH will use it maybe once a year, when he has a lads night, or additionally if he has this one friend of his over who is addicted to the stuff. I hate it, but DH is not my "property" and I will never force him to give up something which is obviously not an addiction. However he is forbidden to smoke it when I'm around, or inside our house, or when we have the children.
Ah, but the lovely nice dealers you buy from buy from other dealers who do sell to kids. And probably buy and sell a lot more than the weed you use.
It's like businessmen who use cocaine in the comfort of their own homes, who get it delivered by nice respectable men in suits - it's still supporting the drugs/gang culture.
I'm not condemning everyone who has the odd joint - what I am saying is that it is not a harmless drug, and those of you who use it and have come to no harm should be just a little more sympathetic and understanding of those who innocently thought that they could do the same, but find that it takes over their lives.
I also have a serious biscuit/chocolate/coffee habit . And I've recently been trying to buy more fairtrade because of reading that the coffee/chocolate production isn't unlike cocaine production from the workers' point of view. And I do understand the "something just to relax me at the weekend" theory, but I think those people who use drugs (whether it be cannabis, cocaine or anything else) shouldn't minimise the harm the individual drug, and the entire system does to so many.
Well I've just learned something new. Had no idea what Skunk was, but am assuming that that is what they have next door to me,then, because it STINKS!!!! It is a disgusting ,nauseating smell.
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