To say he can't go to stag do if there are going to be strippers?

(696 Posts)
DelphineD Sat 09-Feb-13 23:10:58

I'm sorry if this ends up being long; I will try to keep it as concise as possible.

Last year DP went to a stag do (first one that has come up whilst we have been together). It was one of his closest friends, and one that I previously liked and respected. They were away for 2 nights. I had wondered if some sort of strip thing might be involved but I thought probably not as the friend was not that kind of man and DP assured me when he got back that there was nothing of the kind. I later found out (through my scarily good investigation and interrogation!!) that this was not the case. On the first night they had been to a strip club and on the second night there were topless waitresses at their apartment for about 3 hours. This info came out bit by bit. Each time DP would insist there was nothing more to tell, then I found out something else. Eventually I think I got a full confession out of him but it was difficult to be sure as he had lied so many times about it. I also got out of him that there had been topless waitresses at a work party he had attended some time before (I had suspected something wrong and he had always denied it before.) He claimed all this was not of his doing, it was not really of interest to him and he just went along with it because they were in a group and he didn't want to make a fuss etc etc. If he had had a lap dance, I would have broken up with him (friend had a lap dance and the man has gone down a lot in my estimation.) As it was I nearly broke up with him anyway. He knew how much I hated strippers and how I would feel about it, and he did it anyway. But I think the most damaging thing was the lying. I trusted him before, and he had destroyed all that.

We got over it and agreed that if there was anything like this again he would tell me the truth and face the music. He understands how much more damaging it was that he lied about it. Since then, I have been to a work party where there was a male stripper. I didn't know in advance but I did know once I got there and I could have come home. It seemed a bit hypocritical, but I went anyway. I just sat at the back, while some of the married women in my group, went up on stage, straddled the stripper, took their wedding rings off, etc etc. That made me think that I wasn't so worried about DP being present in a large room where women were stripping, it was how he behaved and the interaction that would bother me. Hence why I was more upset about the topless women in the apartment than the ones in the strip club. FWIW I believe he would have behaved in a similar way to me in his situation. But his friend having that lap dance upset me, and made me think you can't trust any man, even the ones who seem nice and like they really love their partners.

Now he has his DB's stag party coming up. It's in the city where we live, but some people will be coming from elsewhere so there will be an apartment rented again. He has said he will tell the truth about it this time. He has admitted that the best man is planning something to do with strippers but nothing is booked in yet. I'm already feeling upset about it already and I just don't want him to be around strippers at all. WIBU to say, if that is happening, I don't want you to go at all?

Parker231 Sat 09-Feb-13 23:16:43

I think you are being unrealistic to think you can tell him not to go especially as its his DB's stag do. Am assume you're going on the hen do with your SIL to be ?

cardibach Sat 09-Feb-13 23:17:28

That was a bit long, so forgive me if i have missed any subtleties. I don;t think the strippers are the problem, more that he wasn;t honest with you. Watching strippers is not necessarily detrimental to your relationship - you don't even know what he thought of them. Not telling you the truth is more worrying, although judging by your reaction, perhaps he thought he was protecting you.
I think YWBU to stop an adult doing something they wanted to.

Softlysoftly Sat 09-Feb-13 23:20:12

I don't like strippers, I think it's objectifying however I'm realistic enough to know they appear to be traditional at stag dos and is hard for a man to be included yet avoid them. DH had walled away and gone to bed when others have had dances but ut want easy and tbh he did it because he wouldn't waste the cash nor for any moral reason!

So yanbu to dislike it but tbh you sound a bit extreme interrogating your DP and banning him from places. You either Trust him or you don't. So no in essence I think ywbu to try and control his attendance, you will put him in the position of damaging his friendship or getting "told off" like a kid.

Softlysoftly Sat 09-Feb-13 23:21:49

Oh it's his brother I missed that yabu!

And sorry my typing is so appalling I've yet to gel with swype!

scarlettsmummy2 Sat 09-Feb-13 23:21:56

I don't think you can stop him going to his brothers stag party.

Bearbehind Sat 09-Feb-13 23:22:26

I fully accept that I might be the one BU now but I can't get precious about this kind of thing at all. IMO these girls are making money out of what god gave them and why would they have the slightest interest in your partner. It's not like the men there haven't seen boobs before. The more you make something taboo, the more he will want it........

WorraLiberty Sat 09-Feb-13 23:24:00

He's got no more control over his brother's stag do having strippers, than you did over the male strippers at the work party you went to.

I think YWBVU to stop him going to his Dbro's stag do.

NewYearNewBoo Sat 09-Feb-13 23:24:27

I think yabvvu, unrealistic and controlling. It is no wonder your dp didn't want to tell you exactly what had happened, he probably knew that you would fly off the deep end at him.

I also have to applaud your double standards!! Surely if your feelings about strippers were to strong you should have called a taxi and left when one turned up at your night out.

WickWackThurso Sat 09-Feb-13 23:25:16

I don't think you can tell him what to do, but there are so many reasons why yanbu to be unhappy with the situation.

Dh has once been on a stag do where they went to a lap dance club. He ot to the door before leaving them to it, and hss recently turned down a stag do invite because a strip club was on the agenda. I was quietly pleased when it transpired that he had emailed and discussed his feminist/moral reasons for declining. Fwiw, it turned out a couple of otgers felt tge same and they are all now going kayaking grin

It sounds to me like distrust is more of an issue here, and trying to control his movements isn't going to fix that.

BarredfromhavingStella Sat 09-Feb-13 23:25:54

YABU & have very unrealistic expectations-you can't seriously be thinking of banning him from his brothers stag do?

Dannilion Sat 09-Feb-13 23:28:35

You say you trusted him before, I doubt that as you interrogated him continuously after his first weekend away.

yaimee Sat 09-Feb-13 23:30:24

Yabu, and I agree with the other posters, your expectations are unrealistic. I don't think he lied because he has done anything wrong, more to save your feelings!

Rockchick1984 Sat 09-Feb-13 23:30:47

I wouldn't be happy about DH going on a stag do where there would be strippers (particularly if he'd lied before about it) however I think you forfeited the right to stop him going when you stayed and watched a male stripper. It can't be one rule for him and one for you hmm

WorraLiberty Sat 09-Feb-13 23:32:30

Do you trust him though OP? I think that's the key question here.

I mean given the fact anyone would have far more chance to cop off with a random clubber than a stripper of either sex...due to the fact strippers are probably hit on all the time.

It's interesting that you said, But his friend having that lap dance upset me, and made me think you can't trust any man, even the ones who seem nice and like they really love their partners

And yet you didn't say it about the women who took their wedding rings off and straddled the male strippers on stage?

That's why I'm wondering if it's more of a personal distrust of your Husband IYSWIM?

AmIthatWintry Sat 09-Feb-13 23:32:57

Sorry OP I think you are BU.

" If he had had a lap dance, I would have broken up with him "

I think that makes you sound either very insecure, or very controlling

Branleuse Sat 09-Feb-13 23:33:13

you sound very controlling and will humiliate him if you tell him he cant go.

Realistically he should probably just either come home or take a back seat when there and not get involved like you did when there were strippers at the event you went to, but it needs to be his decision, not an ultimatum from you.

yaimee Sat 09-Feb-13 23:35:56

Is it about him copping off? Or is it the idea of strippers?

nailak Sat 09-Feb-13 23:38:38

my husband has strong views about these sort of things, so one day when he went out with friends to a restaurant and their ended up being belly dancers there he left the restaurant and waited outside until they were gone.

If you have such strong views about strippers, then why did you stay in the room and watch what was going on on the stage?

if it is wrong for your husband to be in that situation then why is it ok for you to be?

and how can you stop your husband doing anything? you are not his mum.

WorraLiberty Sat 09-Feb-13 23:41:37

Are belly dancers offensive? I thought they had them in family restaurants and all that? Especially Turkish ones?

LilQueenie Sat 09-Feb-13 23:43:47

Hes not the problem because it is you who has the issues. Why did he lie to you? Perhaps because he knew you would react badly. He has a right to attend the stag do. What do you think happens there? Tea parties and girl talk?

WannabeWilloughby Sat 09-Feb-13 23:51:02

YABU, if you trust him it doesn't matter how many naked dancing ladies there are.

Its stag do tradition! Try and relax about it. Be grateful that no bright spark had the idea to visit the 'sights' of Amsterdam! wink Your hubby won't look at these ladies and love you any less. It may not be his cuppa tea but he's gonna be expected to go with the flow.

I hate male strippers, does not do anything for me in the slightest but have been on quite a few nights out where a stripper has been on the bill and I would be really angry and hurt if my DH had banned me from going.

hope it all works out xx

squeakytoy Sat 09-Feb-13 23:54:49

"We got over it and agreed that if there was anything like this again he would tell me the truth and face the music"

face the music? you are his partner, not his parent, and he isnt a child, he is an adult..

stopgap Sat 09-Feb-13 23:57:46

The strippers wouldn't bother me too much, provided it was at a reputable club that didn't offer "extras" behind the scenes. What would concern me are the topless waitresses at the apartment, and I'd wonder if that was a euphemism for escorts. Not to put the wind up you, but I've heard countless tales of escorts in hotel rooms and homes for bachelor parties.

I think you're over-reacting. Your DH has had nothing to do with organising strippers/waitresses, he's just a part of it. I think your issues are with trusting your husband. And you've been to watch a male stripper and that's ok?

I really think you should cut him some slack; he obviously hasn't told you about strippers in the past because he knows what your reaction would be. He's a grown man and can make his own decisions.

Whoknowswhocares Sun 10-Feb-13 00:01:30

Why would you have used 'scarily good investigation and interrogation' on a man who you trusted?
You come across as very insecure and controlling. He hasn't done anything wrong, unless of course you did too when you attended the event with the stripper. Do you think he should leave you and mistrust you of that?
Seriously, stop looking for trouble where none exists and making problems in your relationship without need
If you try to control him and try to prevent him making his own decisions he will leave you anyway. Refusing him permission to go to his own brothers stag do......ridiculous! No one will put up with that sort of behaviour long term.

whois Sun 10-Feb-13 00:02:54

You sound controlling and uptight. There is no way you can ban your DP from his bro's stag do!

WilsonFrickett Sun 10-Feb-13 00:06:24

Tell you what ladies, I'll pop round tomorrow and shake my bits in your P's faces, shall I? Seeing as how you're all ok with strippers. 30 posts in and no-one wants to address whether it's ok that stag nights automatically include naked dancing? Really?

Whoknowswhocares Sun 10-Feb-13 00:13:51

Can if you want. I couldn't care less!
As long as he is faithful, I can't see why I would have the right to dictate to any adult what they can or cannot do. Whether we like it or not, that IS what generally happens at a stag do (and hen do) A fair few the people there will be uncomfortable and not like it....but it's up to them to decide whether to stay quiet in the corner like the op, or tackle it head on
I personally find it distasteful but each to their own. As it happens so does OH, so your bits would not have much of an effect grin

Colliecollie Sun 10-Feb-13 00:14:45

You do not sound controlling and yanbu. If you don't like it or agree with it then that's it. Strippers are not normal for a stag night. A few beers is. I would not want to socialise with or go out with a man who has lap dances either, I'm not surprised your opinion of the friend went down. I'm really surprised that works dos involve either male or female strippers. This is all so far from my world.

WorraLiberty Sun 10-Feb-13 00:15:42

Wilson the OP hasn't asked us to address whether it's ok that stag nights automatically include naked dancing.

Whether it is or isn't is not the issue here.

The issue is that the OP wants to ban her DH from his own brother's stag do if it contains strippers...having sat and watched strippers herself for an evening.

And you can shake what you want in my DH's face, he'd just laugh and tell you to either cover up or shake your thing for someone who's interested.

niceguy2 Sun 10-Feb-13 00:17:36

....your expectations are unrealistic. I don't think he lied because he has done anything wrong, more to save your feelings!

What yaimee said!

If my fiancee told me I couldn't go to my DB's stag do because there may be a stripper there then I'd tell her to leave. To me that's:

a) a lack of trust in me.
b) a lack of respect for my family.

Both fatal. Luckily my fiancee is far more interested in female strippers than I am. I'm the one who is refusing to take her because I'm really that disinterested.

DelphineD Sun 10-Feb-13 00:20:03

Re lap dances - I think if another woman grinds in your lap and rubs her naked breasts in your face then that in itself is a sexual experience and is being unfaithful, regardless of whether or not the woman is being paid.

Re the work party - he had always said he wouldn't care if the situations were reversed. I think in part I wanted to test this. If he hadn't been to a strip club, and if I knew that he would be very upset by it, I would have left. And yes I was shocked by what my female colleagues did as well, and thought less of them, that is why I mentioned it. I think some people, men and women, get carried away with themselves when they put themselves in a situation of temptation once a few drinks have been had.

The thing is, can I trust DP isn't like this? I think so, but all the lies have shaken that belief. I wouldn't mind if he watched stippers/belly dancers/anything like that from a distance/porn on a screen I also don't mind. It is touching and interaction that bothers me.

To all the people who say he lied because I was going to be upset - is that ok then? Just do what you like and if your partner doesn't find out everything is ok? Isn't honesty fundamental to relationship? I am not perfect and have done things that upset him in the past. He only knows about them because I told him - and faced the music.

Dannilion Sun 10-Feb-13 00:21:32

Wilson, if the OP had found some complete stranger in her home shaking her stuff for all and sundry and wanted to know if she WBU for not liking it, I would say no. But this isn't the case. You could do what you wanted Infront of my DP, provided you don't expect payment. Beware of the dog too, she's a right crotch sniffer.

RedToothBrush Sun 10-Feb-13 00:21:58

Learn to trust your partner, accept that in certain circumstances you can't control who he mixes with and the position they put him in and get rid of your hypocritical double standards...

... or just kiss your partner good bye now and save yourself a whole world more of pain.

The line in that that got me more than any other was:
"tell me the truth and face the music"

If you will punish him for simply being honest and telling the truth, then he just won't. You'll just get more lies and if you find out, you'll trust him even less. His motivation, won't be necessarily be be malicious but thats the situation YOU are creating. You have to give your partner the chance to tell the truth; if you'll automatically go off the deep end you are just as responsible for the lies as him purely because he will never get a fair hearing and only abuse. Sometimes you have to simply take things you don't like on the chin and get on with it, rather than starting a fight over it as it'll do more harm in the long run. Pick your battles wisely.

Good luck with your relationship. You'll need it, when you have an attitude that is so negative from the word go.

DelphineD Sun 10-Feb-13 00:22:34

Collie - far from my world also. We do not live in the UK and DP is not British. No one I know from home has done this on a stag do. I am quite surprised at people saying it is the norm.

Whoknowswhocares Sun 10-Feb-13 00:24:29

But isn't that the point of AIBU? To find out if your perception is middle of the road or extreme

DelphineD Sun 10-Feb-13 00:25:56

Red - I gave him many opportunities to tell the truth. If he had told me what had happened in the beginning I would not have been so upset. Because I had to find out from other people and felt I couldn't believe him, that was the damaging thing.

WilsonFrickett Sun 10-Feb-13 00:30:13

Wilson the OP hasn't asked us to address whether it's ok that stag nights automatically include naked dancing.

Oh come on, thats both the premise of the op and the premise of most of the responses. OP: My DP is going to a stag, therefore my DP will be watching strippers. Response: well attending his brothers stag do is his right, therefore watching strippers is his right, therefore YABU and controlling.

You can't answer the op without dealing with the issue that stags = strippers = ok.

nannyof3 Sun 10-Feb-13 00:30:37

U clearly dont trust him.. U shouldnt be together..

If his going to cheat / lie to u, he will, with or without strippers

Its his brothers stag, he has to be there

WilsonFrickett Sun 10-Feb-13 00:31:55

Also do agree that OP should have had the courage of her convictions and not watched a stripper herself btw. But she's not going to do that again, nor should he.

Whoknowswhocares Sun 10-Feb-13 00:32:27

Sorry but I disagree. You already felt you could not trust his word or else you would have had no reason to dig around behind his back for info.
You didn't trust him BEFORE you found out the facts of the last stag do. Unfortunately, you are treating the symptoms by trying to prevent him going, not dealing with the real issue.....your lack of trust

WorraLiberty Sun 10-Feb-13 00:33:18

So your excuse for watching male strippers was you wanted to test whether or not your DH was telling the truth?

I don't really think strippers are the issue here...I think it's more about trust.

And why is it so far from your world if your DH has been to a strip club, spent the night in an apartment with topless waitresses and there's a real likelihood he'll be attending another stag do involving strippers again?

My DH has done none of those things and yet if his brother were to get married and we knew strippers were going to be at the stag do, it would raise nothing other than an eye roll from either of us...but that's because I trust him implicitly and I know how much it would hurt him and my BIL if he couldn't be with him on the night for any reason.

yaimee Sun 10-Feb-13 00:33:43

Wilson, I think a couple of people asked whether it was infidelity or strippers in general that op is worried about.
I don't think op intended debate about stripping or lap dancing, and even if she did, comparing you shaking your bits in our dps faces isn't a very fair comparison to a man attending an event with a stripper that someone else booked!

RedToothBrush Sun 10-Feb-13 00:33:49

To all the people who say he lied because I was going to be upset - is that ok then?

Sometimes its not about the lying. Its about giving him the room, space and right attitude to tell uncomfortable truths in. If you can't do that, then you are doomed from the word go, imho.

Being able to tell the truth relies not only on the teller but also on the listener being able to react in a calm way and take their time to respond in non confrontational manner.

If you are only able to respond to unpleasant things in an emotional manner than doesn't properly give him a fair hearing and chance to apologise/explain, why would he tell the truth? He will get the same reaction what ever he does.

So he has nothing to gain by telling the truth. If he lies he at least has a chance to escape the same reaction.

YOU ultimately create a situation where he has more to gain by lying than telling the truth by the way you reaction to situations like this.

You don't have to like what he says and you can make that clear, but its how you conduct yourself and how calm, rational and reasonable you remain when you do that, that is most important.

sleepyhead Sun 10-Feb-13 00:40:11

It would never occur to me to carry out scarily good investigation and interrogation on my dh's night out.

That's a problem imo.

As far as strippers go, they are naff and cheesy and cringy and bleugh. I'd definitely think less of a man who got all slobbery about them. Someone who was present in the room when they were booked by someone else? No different from you being present when the equally naff, cheesy male strippers were doing their thing.

sleepyhead Sun 10-Feb-13 00:40:51

Why did you feel you had to investigate btw?

ToomuchWaternotWine Sun 10-Feb-13 00:40:56

Ahem, please can I just point out that belly dancers are NOT sex workers, strippers or escorts. We dance in costumes that cover our breasts and fannies, thanks. Yes, our bellies and hips MAY be exposed (and sometimes not, depending on your costume preferences and the style of dance) but our dancing is a cultural and musical expressive art, not a strip tease. Anything dodgy anyone may have seen is NOT proper belly dancing.

OP yabu to interrogate or investigate, but I can understand a little bit if you heard things from others that made you realise your DP hadn't told you the full story. That would upset me too. But Yabu also to attempt to ban him from his bros stag do. You can make your feelings clear (as I think you have done!) but in the end, it comes down to trust. You have to trust he won't interact, otherwise your relationship has real problem.

WilsonFrickett Sun 10-Feb-13 00:42:20

yaimee that's my point really. Practically everyone on the thread seems to believe that watching strippers is a fact of life (including the op) - I don't. That's all really, just trying to put it across that it's not a human right to watch naked ladies as part of a stag. And if it wasn't seen as a general part of a stag, the op wouldn't be asking the question.

And while the shaking comment was tongue in cheek, it's valid. You would no doubt be horrified to come home and find a friend or neighbour dancing naked for your partner - why does someone else organising the same thing in the context of a stag night make it ok or any different?

WorraLiberty Sun 10-Feb-13 00:43:09

RedToothBrush what a very eloquent post

That's it in a nutshell for me

WorraLiberty Sun 10-Feb-13 00:48:26

No I don't think it's a 'fact of life'.

But it is a very common thing and if someone you love/are very close to is having a stag/hen night that involves strippers, it's ok imo to still attend and think Yuk in the back of your mind...putting it down to different strokes and all that as my DH and I would.

But that's because we trust each other and we know we'd both find it cringeworthy....but still down to the stag or hen's choice.

We're both adults in a loving marriage and if either one of us decided to 'ban' the other from attending, then imo that would mean a severe lack of trust...and nothing to do with the dodgy entertainment.

Neither me or my DH would ever dream of controlling one another.

My ex tried that...and he's an ex for that very reason.

DelphineD Sun 10-Feb-13 00:49:31

Red in a practical way I think you are right about the lying. Overreacting will encourage more lies. But I still think we have an obligation to tell our parnters difficult truths. I have told the truth to him when I knew he would be upset (unreasonably in my opinion).

I suppose other people saying I didn't trust him in the beginning maybe were right... he is a good man in all other ways. Looks like I am being unfair smile. I will try to trust him. I haven't asked him not to go and I won't ask him not to go. I DO want him to enjoy his time with his brother, and have all kinds of fun... just be faithful to me.

Perhaps you could say to him that if the stag night ends up going to a strip club you would prefer it if he came on home at that point but if he doesn't you would rather he told you what happened rather than lie about it. It doesn't have to be a confrontation just honesty between partners.

My DH dislikes the fact that stag nights end up in strip clubs more than I do and tends to leave before they end up there. What always disgusts me though is the attitude of the men emailing each other saying "we're going onto x club, don't let the wives know that. Mr Lurked make sure Lurked doesn't let on". I don't care if DH goes to a strip club - the minute he lies is the day there's a problem. OP, don't assume that going to a strip club automatically means he's having a lap dance or is cheating. Let him be open and honest without expecting a confrontation.

Tasmania Sun 10-Feb-13 00:57:40

You can't stop him. And seriously, if it was only strippers and just for a laugh, then let him be. I often joke around that I'd take DH to FYEO one day, and definitely a Burlesque performance one night. His friends just look stunned and speechless when they hear that grin!!!

But here's the thing: I trust my DH wholeheartedly. Maybe because I know he is not into that sort of thing, and secretly hates stag-dos, to the point that he gets all worked up about having to go, and I'm the one who says he should just do it. He's not a very laddish person, to the point that I think he jumped out of a Jane Austen novel somewhere (even looks that way if he's in a suit!).

I'm aware there are other men out there whom I would not trust. Luckily, I'm not married to one of them.

OP - you really have to decide which camp your DH falls into...

DelphineD Sun 10-Feb-13 00:57:53

Worra I meant far from my world back home and until these recent events. I was thinking maybe it is a culture thing with the place we have moved to. But evidently not as so many other people think it is expected! I have no interest in attending another strip show and to be honest I would prefer if he didn't either. I think it will come down to the importance of the event. Brother's stag party - important enough. Work party - probably not important enough.

yaimee Sun 10-Feb-13 00:58:52

Wilson, I understand where you're coming from, bit at the same time, without getting into a debate about the rights and wrongs or the extent to which stripping is considered sex work, the ops dp has been invited to an event where there will be a stripper. So should she prevent her op from attending this event, not in my opinion, particularly as the other involved are close family members.
Coming home to find anyone giving my op a private dance would be different to coming home and finding dp in a room full of people including a stripper.

Jinsei Sun 10-Feb-13 01:02:20

OP, I think you have a right to feel how you feel. If other women would be ok with their partners getting lap dances etc, then that's fine for them, but it isn't fine for you, and personally I think your partner ought to respect that.

I don't like strip clubs for all sorts of reasons. I think they're horribly tacky, they objectify women and I do regard something like a lap dance as a form of infidelity. I have never banned DH from going anywhere, and I don't think I'd have a right to stop him from attending anything. That said, I would reserve the right to walk away from a man who chose to ignore my strong feelings about an issue. Others might think I am BU, but ultimately, it's for me to decide what kind of relationship I can live with.

Luckily for me, I think DH would feel uncomfortable in that kind of place anyway, but even if he didn't, I would like to believe that he would be considerate regarding my feelings on the matter.

DelphineD Sun 10-Feb-13 01:14:21

Just reflecting on trust issue, and he has been on holiday with 'lap dance' friend a few times, just the two of them. I was not worried in any way about these holidays before or afterwards and was happy for him to go and enjoy himself. After stag party I heard about the topless girls from one of the other wives, and it was only after that that I started to dig for other info. And I kept finding out more and more things. So I do think it was the recent events and the way they unfolded that caused the breakdown in trust rather than longstanding problem.

Lurked thanks that is good advice. I think I would like it to be his decision what to do.

RedToothBrush Sun 10-Feb-13 01:17:28

Strippers are not the real issue here Wilson. Not at all.

No one has said strippers are a fact of life. But there are various ways of dealing with the situation - it doesn't mean you like them.

And the truth is, you could have a partner who supported their girlfriend's anti-stripper feelings and respected their reasons. They might find out a stripper will be at their brother's stag do. So they refuse to go. This then damages the relationship he has with his brother. And he ends up resenting his girlfriend for having those views and blames her for the break down of the relationship as he never had any intention whatsoever of having a lap dance.

Its never as straightforward as saying strippers are acceptable. Its about realising its often a much more complicated situation and about various different types of relationship that need to be handled with tact rather than a bull in a china shop response. Which is what you advocate.

Bottomline is, if you dislike strippers so much and its that important to you, then you're probably with the wrong guy if he a guy who socialises with people where it is expected to be the norm. Otherwise you find ways to deal with the situation if and when it arises and you deal with how uncomfortable and upsetting you find it WITH your partner TOGETHER rather than issuing dictates about whether they are 'allowed' to go or not. Because they merely creates other problems. You may have to find a way to compromise and make sure your partner knows what is going to really cause you distress (eg no lap dances).

And there are plenty of groups of males who aren't remotely interested in strippers and find them uncomfortable viewing themselves. Even for stag nights. The vast majority of my male friends DID NOT have a stripper for their stag night, because they think its tacky & really unsexy or just that its expensive to go to a strip club and most of them would prefer to sit in an old man's pub by the fire and be boring anyway.

Buzzardbird Sun 10-Feb-13 01:37:55

Canada?

Hooya Sun 10-Feb-13 01:43:10

Agree with what Red says, it's about defining the boundaries of the relationship you are in. And it shouldn't be about 'giving permission' or forbidding anyone to go anywhere - partners are not each other's bosses or probation officers!

My partner knows what I would consider to be cheating in the context of strip clubs (no issues with private dances for me, but there are certain lines he knows that if he crossed, I'd say it was cheating). As a result, we have a nice chat the day after where I'm always interested to hear what goes on, and I know that if he did cross the line he'd feel awful and probably not even be able to lie about it if he wanted to, because the whole relationship is built on that kind of honesty. I feel very sorry for the guys who say "I can't believe you know that MrHooya goes to strip clubs sometimes, please don't tell my wife / gf!" but I know those wives / gfs are the ones who give and withdraw permission, rather than talking their feelings through like adults.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 02:22:58

In whose pea-brained world is it ok to call a woman controlling, insecure, uptight and unrealistic when she tells a story about her partner lying to her about his use of the sex industry, going to parties where the hosts have hired prostitutes to come to an apartment - and has concerns about another stag do where the same will happen?

In tons of countries abroad (and the OP has said she lives overseas) what are euphemistically called 'topless dancers' are actually prostitutes booked to come to an apartment that's been rented for the stag do.

OP it doesn't matter if this is normal in some people's world, or in some people's relationships. If everyone who joined the herd to harangue you on this thread felt completely at ease with their own tolerance of this in their relationships, or could square it with anything approaching equality for women, they wouldn't feel the need to call you names. Women or men who object to this crap make them feel frightened that maybe this isn't ok and if they objected, their partners would go ahead, do it anyway and lie about it. They think even the lying's defensible if a woman objects or creates a fuss, so in the most peculiar bit of rationalisation, they fool themselves that if they don't object, they won't be lied to.

Meanwhile men refer to prostitutes coming back to hotels and apartments as 'topless dancers' and 'waitresses' so the subterfuge continues and everyone can pretend they are laid-back, cool and that their partners always tell the truth to them.

None of this has to be you. None of this has to be your relationship.

All of this stuff about it being different because it's his brother is bollocks, as is the brain-washed insistence that this is okay and normal.

Your options are far broader than banning this or sucking it up.

If your partner wants to go and either likes the entertainment or is too uncourageous to say no to it, tell him how you feel. If he feels pressurised into it and in truth, doesn't like the sex industry part of it, come to a compromise.

You say it's a stag 'party' in your city, so not a whole weekend away. Why doesn't he go for the bulk of the evening and come home when they all head for the strip club/the apartment? That means he's not letting down his brother, or his own principles and is absenting himself from the sex industry bits?

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 02:38:55

The bottom line is if you're not ok with him looking at strippers, you're not ok with it and that's FINE. Who cares if it's "the norm" for stag parties? You're not ok with it and he should respect that.

For me, going to see a stripper is cheating. So my partner could go if he wanted, but he wouldn't find me waiting for him at home, I would be gone. He knows this. And he accepts it. There's no "you're not allowed to" because he is an adult who has choices. And so am I, and I choose not to be with someone who wants to be in any way involved in watching strippers.

He has also lied to you, so that's another issue.

I think you need to have a big talk and making your feelings clear, on both sides.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 02:46:45

At last sanity prevails.

AngelAtTheTopOfTheTree Sun 10-Feb-13 03:57:48

Give the man an inch, he'll take a mile. Give the man a mile, he'll take an inch. I honestly couldn't be a*sed checking up on my OH. I have better, more productive things to do with my time. If I thought I had to check out his stories I wouldn't be with him and he would say the same.

What a sad way to live. Over strippers. At a stag do. His own brother's stag do. I am just not uptight enough to feel bothered by that - I'd be jealous to be missing out on a party and wishing him a great night!

woopsidaisy Sun 10-Feb-13 04:52:19

Yes, thanks goodness I'm not the only uncool one.. Just read this thread and couldn't believe that everyone thought OP unreasonable. It seems everyone thinks that these 'waitresses' are happy college going girls. Just making a bit of money before their law degree ends. I'll bet that isn't the case. The sex industry isn't fun.
My DHs friends would not have strippers/strip clubs etc on stag nights or any other nights. DH feels as I do, that they are demeaning and disrespectful.

YABU, and childish and controlling. No wonder your dp lied to you, you are treating him like a child telling him what you will and will not allow him to do.

MsAkimbo Sun 10-Feb-13 07:00:59

Maybe I'm just a filthy degenerate, but I really don't equate strippers with cheating. I don't see the big deal about them at all, really. Especially given that there's this thing called....

<whispers> the internet

Where anyone can see naked women doing pretty much anything imagined at no cost to the viewers! shock

Additionally, I would hope there's very few men who go to a strip club thinking they'll meet the girl of their dreams. If that's the case, then yes, leave the bastard.

But a man going to a stag, watching a woman dance nakes while he and his friends get shitfaced? Meh.

You telling him he cannot, will not, and should not even think about going or feel thy wrath?

Yabu.

Knowsabitabouteducation Sun 10-Feb-13 07:26:09

YABVU.

Don't ask - don't tell is the best policy for boys only/girls only events.

TBH, your attitude sounds very juvenile. He's a young, unmarried man doing something harmless to him.

If the roles were reversed here, everyone would be screaming, "leave the b**". There's a double standard.

firesidechat Sun 10-Feb-13 07:33:41

I haven't read the whole thread, so I may have missed something and apologies if I have.

I don't think the op is being particularly controlling and unreasonable. She doesn't like strippers or the thought of her husband having a lap dance. I wouldn't either because it's all a bit seedy and tacky isn't it? A bit of mutual respect in a relationship is important and that should probably involve not doing something your partner would hate, as long as that is a reasonable request.

However op I don't think you can stop your husband going to his brother's stag do and some moral high ground was lost when you stayed to see a stripper yourself. I'm one of those that would have left at that point and maybe come back later when he had gone.

Trazzletoes Sun 10-Feb-13 07:45:45

People think watching a stripper is cheating?! Woah! I hope you have never watched the Full Monty! grin

Seriously though, different people set different bars in relationships but I really really REALLY don't see how you think you can tell him what to do after YOU stayed somewhere there was a stripper yourself.

And yikes, prostitutes? I don't think the OP has suggested anywhere that her DP has had sex with any of the topless waitresses has she?

Cottonmouth Sun 10-Feb-13 07:45:50

He's not her husband.

She is coming over all prudish while shacking up with the man!

exoticfruits Sun 10-Feb-13 07:54:19

I think that the comment 'face the music' says it all. You are treating him like a child and so it is hardly surprising that he acts like a child and is 'economical with the truth.'

MusicalEndorphins Sun 10-Feb-13 07:57:40

I don't really care one bit about anyone elses opinion. I am true to my own feelings. I don't want to be with someone who goes to see strippers or hasn't the guts to say no to his friends or brother. And if not attending a party would cause damage to a relationship, the brother is a pretty crappy brother anyways. But I would have left that party you went to OP with the male stripper, you can't have one rule for him and another for yourself.

HollyBerryBush Sun 10-Feb-13 08:02:46

And yikes, prostitutes? I don't think the OP has suggested anywhere that her DP has had sex with any of the topless waitresses has she?

No she hasn't but its certainly on her mind from her last post

I DO want him to enjoy his time with his brother, and have all kinds of fun... just be faithful to me.

Bit off to lump strippers in with prostitutes though. Some might be, not all are.

All I can say is, there are a lot of families here who clearly don't go on beach holidays, theres a lot more flesh on display there than in a strip club.

FiveGoMadInDorset Sun 10-Feb-13 08:04:16

You come across as really insecure, untrusting and controlling. Sorry. Did you tell him, by the way, about the stripper that you saw? You never said or else I just missed it.

Just ditch him. You'll end up paranoid and controlling if you stay with this bloke. There's no point debating who is right and who is wrong, you'll get lots of different answers but none of them will change how you feel. He's not the right bloke for you, you aren't married, so ditch him.

Doingakatereddy Sun 10-Feb-13 08:08:06

I'm not surprised the OP's OH lied - All this hand wringing over some boobs seems way over the top to me.

The whole feminist argument over objectification of women is tiresome, there are plenty of other feminist issues to challenge.

But banning oh from going to his brothers stag - ridiculous. Adult relationships are not meant to be controlling. It's about a pair of tits FFS.

TheFallenNinja Sun 10-Feb-13 08:09:21

I think I must be going to the wrong stag dos, the last few I've been on have been have been one night only and not a stripper or a lap dance in sight, one more memorable one had pie and peas organised to keep the less energetic lads going confused

Perhaps I'm getting a bit too old but this trend of 2-3 week long stag/hen do's seems a bit much.

Strippers in a club, ok, strippers coming to a private apartment, not ok.

Trazzletoes Sun 10-Feb-13 08:11:34

I do think the lack of trust is the big problem here and I firmly believe that there is no point in having a relationship with someone if you can't trust them.

I'm not going to go in to the rights and wrongs of him lying to her before etc etc but the point remains the same: if the trust has gone, you are both better off out of it.

HollyBerryBush Sun 10-Feb-13 08:14:25

Women are far worse than men at these sorts of things. Men like a pint and a sly oggle, women are right up their pick bananas out of pants with their teeth and rubbing baby oil all over. Far far worse.

I dont recall seeing a thread from the OP in the past, at this hen night she was at, decrying her female friends/collegues for having a wild night. tucked away at the back with the other married women my aarse!

EuroShagmore Sun 10-Feb-13 08:16:44

I think you are being completely OTT. It's just some boobs and other body parts.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 08:25:04

Mature adult human beings not go to strip clubs.

If you only form grown up relationships with adults this isn't an issue.
.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Sun 10-Feb-13 08:26:57

Why are you thinking he won't stay faithful if he goes to a strip club? If he's not going to be faithful he can do that on a night out, going to a strip club has nothing to do with it.

Why are you assuming he'll have a lap dance? My H has been to strip clubs on stag do's, got offered a dance and said no, he has better at home (ha). He's just not that bothered.

YABU to say you'll ban him, you can't. I can see why he didn't tell you, due to your reaction. My H told me everything that went on on his stag do (Amsterdam, a sex show), as he knew I'd be more bothered about him lying to me than anything.

I think lumping all strippers with prostitutes is a but much.

Let him go, trust him. But for gods sake, just talk to him rather than interrogate him. Stop saying he will 'face the music', he's not a child. And with that to come home to, no wonder he doesn't tell you things. Talk to him like an adult.

DontmindifIdo Sun 10-Feb-13 08:35:11

thing is OP, if you think he'll cheat, then actually going to a lapdancing club is 'safer' than a normal club. a large number of pissed up blokes on a stag do in a lapdancing club will have a close eye kept on them, and wouldn't get away with touching a dancer. On the other hand, if he's in the mood to 'play away', a normal club with woman he could pull should he want too is much more of a likely situation.

Lapdancing clubs/strippers aren't nice - but a lot of men feel the same. DH has been to a few on either stag dos or rugby tours and has always been honest about it, but then again, there's not many clubs that you can garentee they will let 20+ drunken men all in at the same time. A lot of best men organising stag dos arrange going to lapdancing clubs because it's easy, no having to ensure you get there super early before anyone in the group is drunk to get in, no having to split up into smaller groups in the queue to increase the chances of everyone being allowed in by the bouncers (which also means it's harder for the person organising to make sure they've seen everyone get in), no scouting round a huge club trying to find everyone to get back home (particularly if an appartment is being rented, it's not like they are staying in a hotel where eveyrone's got their own keys, they do sort of have to round them all up and stay as a group in that situation).

DH arranged DBIL's stag do without a trip to a lapdancing club after SIL's request (and quite frankly, DH said he just finds them cringingly akward so was happy to miss that out - I believe him on that, he's a proper techy geek and finds unknown woman talking to him stressful enough without her having her baps out) but afterwards he said it was far more stressful and complex than previous stag dos he's helped organise when they did go to strip clubs. (although that could have been BIL's friends, they aren't the most 'self reliant' group of people I've ever met)

DontmindifIdo Sun 10-Feb-13 08:37:38

oh and I know in some countries strippers and prostitutes are basically the same thing, that's not normally the case in the UK.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 08:52:48

" Talk to him like an adult."

But he isn't an adult. If he was, he wouldn't want to go to a strip club!

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 08:54:39

We had nude butlers at my friends hen do. They just wore pinnies... It was brilliant. I don't see the difference between that and topless girls serving in an apartment.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 09:00:25

Op you are not needy and insecure you just don't like the idea of your dp leering over naked women he's paying to see with a baying mob of blokes . Mumsnet is divided massively on this subject with completely different views. The issue for me is not that it's cheating but that's it objectifys women which as a female and mother of two daughters concerns me.
I won't stop dh from doing anything but he knows I'd lose a bit of respect for him simply because he'd be doing it to go along with the crowd.
To those who say its harmless fun and not cheating, my mate used to be a bouncer at a lap dancing club and its not uncommon for the bones to pay for a hand job or to grope the worker. Is that ok? Cis it's not for me and I make no apology for that.
I think it's a shame that we just see this as tradition and normal stag do behaviour. There are many "traditional" things in our culture which would now be unacceptable.

marriedinwhite Sun 10-Feb-13 09:03:24

I've been with my DP for 25 years OP. I am well aware that he has been to the odd strip club and a bit of burlesque in recent years. If I got uptight about it and told him I would split with him if a lap dancer lap danced he probably wouldn't tell the truth either. What's he supposed to say to a client taking him out and behaving in the immature way only 50 year olds can behave "ooh I can't do that, my wife wouldn't let me".

I've never seen a male stripper OP - have I missed much wink

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 09:11:21

married no but he could say "no thanks I don't fancy it"
Men can enjoy themselves without sexual stimulation I presume.
What would he say if a client offered him a line of coke or wanted to visit a brothel?

marriedinwhite Sun 10-Feb-13 09:13:06

I don't think they would somehow ledkr and he would say no.

I think he does fancy it though; and I don't have a problem with that and just call him a middle aged dirty minded git when he gets in. grin

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 09:14:21

"We had nude butlers at my friends hen do. They just wore pinnies... It was brilliant. I don't see the difference between that and topless girls serving in an apartment."

They are both distasteful. But if you really can't see that there is a difference, I could recommend some reading.........?

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 09:17:13

Yes seeker I'm glad I've got company grin
married sorry to be annoying but my point is he is capable if saying no without looking like a hen pecked hubby.

NannyPlumIsMyMum Sun 10-Feb-13 09:24:09

Yabvu and uptight to be honest.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 09:33:13

Seeker

they are either both acceptable or neither are acceptable.

DelphineDSun 10-Feb-13 00:49:31

OP
"I have told the truth to him when I knew he would be upset (unreasonably in my opinion)."

I think that you should find someone that you actually care about.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 09:37:44

"Seeker

they are either both acceptable or neither are acceptable"

They are both unacceptable. But they are by no means the same.

SirBoobAlot Sun 10-Feb-13 09:42:37

A lap dance would be a deal breaker for me too, tbh, so I understand where you're coming from. Especially if he knows what your stand is against it.

However all you can do is remind him how you feel about it, and let him make his own decision. You can't tell him he isn't allowed to go because he is an adult.

I don't understand the need for naked people at any stag or hen do, ffs.

Ashoething Sun 10-Feb-13 09:49:53

YANBU-and I am frankly astounded at some of the attitudes on this thread. It not controlling to not want your dh to get a hand job or what is esssentially a "dry ride" from a prostitute. Do none of you watch these programmes about groups of lads going on stag do's to prague and the like?-its vile.

But hey as long as your dh's think you are "cool" and not "controlling" eh?hmm

ShellyBoobs Sun 10-Feb-13 09:50:50

YABU.

You sound absolutely awful, OP.

You're proud of yourself for interrogating and questioning him? You're forcing him to hide things from you for fear of the appalling way you treat him. You're NOT his fucking parent!

If your DP had posted his side of this story here I would advise him to LTB.

Ashoething Sun 10-Feb-13 09:53:22

"appalling way you treat him"-have I woken up in the 1950's here? It is not ok for a women OR man to tell their partner that NO they are not happy with some stranger waving their fanny/cock in their faces because thats "controlling"? FFS. Cop on to yourselves.

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 09:56:05

Ashoething I know, I'm actually shocked.

SirBoobAlot Sun 10-Feb-13 10:06:36

Ashoething, was wondering just the same.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 10:12:43

It's depressing that so many women are so insecure that they have to pretend it's OK for men to go in for this sort of crap.

eggsy11 Sun 10-Feb-13 10:12:48

No way on earth would DP be going if there was strippers! If he'd lied about it before I'd be fuming!!! But having topless waitresses at their rented apartment??? That is awful!

Its not that I don't trust him at all. I have affriend who works on babe station type website and the way she speaks about the men makes me feel sick. Desperate, lecherous. I would HATE to think of my do as one of those guys!

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 10:14:20

It's not about letting him go. A man worth forming an adult relationship with wouldn't want to!

AllYoursBabooshka Sun 10-Feb-13 10:19:50

He's hardly the poor put upon man because his partner doesn't want him to go look at naked women.

It really baffles me how it can go from being completely unacceptable (as in Janet from his work decides to strip on his desk and stick her breasts in his face) to perfectly fine because

A) He pays for it
B) He will miss the party otherwise (now remember, we are talking about a grown up here.)

I don't see how it is uptight to have an issue with this and to let your DP know that it's not something you are willing to put up with, whether it's Janet from work or a stripper at a stag do.

I also think what OP meant by "Face the music" is that if he chooses to do it regardless then that would be the end of their relationship. It's not her being "controlling" to make this clear, it just means that she is treating him like an adult with choices.

I couldn't be with a man who would risk our relationship for fear of looking "under the thumb" (regardless of how he feels) in front of his mates. I prefer people with a little back bone and individual courage rather than a ovine coward.

AllYoursBabooshka Sun 10-Feb-13 10:21:04

an

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 10-Feb-13 10:22:50

I hate strippers as an entertainment and have avoided hen parties, or that section of the party if there was going to be strippers. There is no way in the world I would miss one of my sister's hen parties though. I don't think DH would feel threatened by it. I think there is something deeply unsexual about it considering what it is. I wouldn't want DH to go to a lapdancing club etc because of a feminist slant but I don't think it's cheating or a threat to the way he views me. I think if he was going to cheat it would be with someone at work or someone he met in a club or something.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 10-Feb-13 10:24:41

I have multiple sisters btw, not one sister with loads of hen parties blush

must improve grammar

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 10:28:57

Can I ask then? Turn the tables and make it a hen do with a male stripper/naked waiters/ male lap dancer...whatever. Would you decline the invite?
I think I would. That sort of crud doesn't interest me.

eggsy11 Sun 10-Feb-13 10:30:03

Not really the same but the 'under the thumb' comment reminded me of when me and DP first went out. He wanted to go clubbing when his ex-girlfriend would be there. I asked him not to go, he said hewwould be taken the piss out of for me telling him what to do. Big row ensued and he ended up going and I broke up with him. About three hours later cue him turning up at my door drunk crying because he had a shit night anyway and was upset he hurt me. Since then we always respect if the other doesn't want us doing something!

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 10:30:06

I wish I had multiple sisters- I haven't even got onesad I do have two brothers and 5 ex-Sils though- which must be some sort of record......

Trazzletoes Sun 10-Feb-13 10:35:56

?! I don't "let" DH go to lap dancing bars on stag do's because I'm achingly cool. I'm not cool in the slightest!

I don't "let" him do anything. He is his own person and can make his own choices. Of course I would have a problem with him going to a brothel because actual sex is cheating! But I know that, even going to a strip club, he chooses not to have lap dances because he is not interested in them.

As sooooo many people have already said, of he was going to cheat, he would find a way and it wouldn't be with a stripper on a stag do.

If I was unhappy about him doing something, I would sit down and have an adult conversation with him, without going all "face the music" and explain why I would prefer him not to, for example, go to a brothel. He can then make up his own mind.

DH makes his own choices because I trust him not to make decisions that would hurt me.

WilsonFrickett Sun 10-Feb-13 10:39:35

The whole feminist argument over objectification of women is tiresome, there are plenty of other feminist issues to challenge.

Nah, that's pretty much one of the main ones for me. But thanks for telling me what to think. So sorry you find it tiresome hmm

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 10:41:50

Some reading seeker on why naked butlers are unacceptable?? Er, no thanks!

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 10:43:36

Trazzletoes so you draw the line at a brothel, OP draws the line at stripping.

What's the issue, exactly?

MrsHoarder Sun 10-Feb-13 10:51:47

YWNBU to tell him that you find the idea of him watching strippers uncomfortable and that it undermines your feels for and relationship with him. YWBU to tell him that he "can't go", he is an adult and can make his own decisions.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 10:54:34

"Some reading seeker on why naked butlers are unacceptable?? Er, no thanks!"

No. Some reading on why there is a difference between naked butlers and topless waitresses.

hermioneweasley Sun 10-Feb-13 11:00:34

None of the guys I know had strippers at their stag do's. They were rather sedate affairs. I don't think it's a given that you have to objectify women with limited options to mark the ending of single life.

EllieArroway Sun 10-Feb-13 11:05:16

A man worth forming an adult relationship with wouldn't want to!

Really? And you're speaking for absolutely all men in absolutely all situations are you?

I've known perfectly mature, respectable men who've enjoyed the odd trip to a strip club. If their partners are OK with it (and I was once a partner of one) exactly what is the problem?

If the OP has a problem with it, then she needs to tell him. A mature man will put his partners feelings first.

But the idea that NO MAN should ever want to go to anything like this is quite pathetic & and patently untrue.

And I fail to see any difference between a topless waitress and a naked butler. Tits and fannies are ruder than knobs? hmm

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 11:05:58

Some reading on why there is a difference between naked butlers and topless waitresses.

I cba to do reading, but I am interested in what differentiates them. Could you put it in a nutshell for me Seeker?

Thingiebob Sun 10-Feb-13 11:09:58

You can't refuse to let him go to a stag do - especially as it is his brother's.

And as a poster further up said, it's not like he hasn't seen boobs before, and seeing some strippers is not going to stop him from loving you.

Organise something else on that night out for yourself and some friends to take your mind of it.

Frankly I wouldn't give a shit if my DH went out on a stag do and there was a stripper there. I think it is tacky etc, but wouldn't be in agonies about it or feel that it would affect our relationship. In fact I should imagine he would be quite uncomfortable then come home and tell me all about it!

biff23 Sun 10-Feb-13 11:15:48

I don't get the prob some women have with this. My dh is a very nice, respectable man and has been to lap dancing clubs and strippers for stag nights. I just can't get worked up over it. Just don't think about it, he's not going to do anything with the girls and he doesn't see anymore flesh than he would in magazines or on the beach so don't stress, it really isn't worth it.

biff23 Sun 10-Feb-13 11:17:50

Elliearroway I want to "like" your post smile

Thingiebob Sun 10-Feb-13 11:18:04

Yeah what biff said.

There is definitely some hysteria on MN about strippers.

scottishmummy Sun 10-Feb-13 11:19:34

essentially you don't trust dp.at all and trying to keep him on leash
you will have turbulent time in your relationship if you can't trust
this habitually setting ultimatums is no way to carry on,sort your relationship issues

aldiwhore Sun 10-Feb-13 11:24:56

For me, it's not about strippers or topless waitress's really, it's about lying. It's also about someone who feels unable to tell the truth because of the reaction of their partner.

DH is honest to me because although I don't like certain things I don't go apeshit, I don't lecture him or patronise him, I voice my dislike of something, I say "I'd rather you didn't go but I trust you not to be an active participant" (private dance is a deal breaker... ) Saying that, he's strong enough to say 'NO' and has been known to jump in a cab home when a night out starts to veer towards tit bars, on those 'special' nights like stag do's etc, I don't agonise over who's bottom may appear in his field of vision, or who's breasts are on show. So long as he doesn't pay for exclusivity, just the entrance fee!

Likewise I've been on night's out with women where male strippers have been involved. I tended to ignore the oily man (not wishing to get oil stains on my nice clothes) and his squirty cream, and when pulled out to join in this so-called-fun, I've had spine enough to say NO (fuck off, pick on someone else)... I've still BEEN there though and if DH gave me grief for that I'd think he was being U.

Doingakatereddy Sun 10-Feb-13 11:27:53

I find the arguments about strippers tiresome, I find breast feeding threads tiresome.

I have no idea why women can't get passionate about feminist issues such as low pay, equal pay, how to improve discrimination in the work place, how to ensure balance in directors of everything from SME's to Footsie 100 companies to how we have accepted that child benefit can be withdrawn as income is decided as a couple, yet tax allowances often aren't.

I'm not telling you what to think, just wishing we all got frenzied over something important for a change

PrideOfChanur Sun 10-Feb-13 11:50:54

Good for you,biff and glad it doesn't bother you or the others on the thread - it would bother me.The topless waitresses in the hotel room would bother me a lot.
None of it because I'm worried DH would "do" something,but because I hate the whole stripping lap dance bit,our society which means men can pay to ogle women-and if it is a lame feminist argument,it is still what I feel .It is just ick,and knowing there are nice respectable men who think it is fine is also ick.
Looking at women on the beach or at work - fair enough,that is just life.
So I wouldn't object to the going to the stag do in itself, but I would mind if he thought it was a good idea and had no problem with it.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 11:52:26

Interesting that people have to use language like "frenzied" to somehow ridicule legitimate concerns.

Well, where shall I start?

Women in the sex industry are not, dispite all suggestions to the contrary, all using it as an easy way to fund their PhDs, or doing it because they love sex so much. They are overwhelmingly doing it because they have a drug habit to feed, or because they are trafficked or abused or pimped out. Being a stripper is not merely al alternative to working in McDonalds. There are, of course, women who do this work as a completely free choice, but they are in the minority, and it is impossible to tell the difference. So using the set industry in any way is perpetuating the abuse of women. So far, so simple.

<warning- this is a difficult bit> Supporing the sex industry perpetuates the "objectification" of women. That women are and should be sexually available. It's part of a continuum that ends with your teenage daughter being groped on the tube.

<another difficult bit> The sex industry perpetuates the idea that men have control and power over women. When you have naked butlers, part of what makes it entertaining is the role reversal. How funny and absurd that men should be behaving like this. Topless waitresses are just an extreme version of how society perceives women generally. And before you tell me I'm being extreme and ridiculous, have a look through a tabloid newspaper.

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 11:57:10

Seeker I agree with everything you said, until When you have naked butlers, part of what makes it entertaining is the role reversal. How funny and absurd that men should be behaving like this.

So you are basically saying that naked butlers are more acceptable because women view them as a laugh?

I can't agree with that. That's a cop out.

PrideOfChanur Sun 10-Feb-13 11:57:51

Hysteria? Since when is objecting to something hysteria?

And scottish mummy,it looks from the OP,that she doesn't trust him because he lied about the original stag do - seems reasonable to me.And even if she found out about it by scarily good investigation,he still lied,repeatedly.Does sound like a problem,but I don't think it is her problem.I'd find it hard to trust anyoine who did that.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 11:59:26

But surely everyone is entitled to their opinion and feelings about strip clubs etc. that doesn't mean they can stop their partners going but that they can express their displeasure. Then it's up to the partner to decide whether to go or not and face his partners disappointment should she express it later. I'd feel the same if dh suddenly decided to go to illegal dog fights or suchlike.
As for being insecure I don't think that's the only reason but in my case I have ruined my body giving dh kids, I have had breast cancer and reconstruction, I don't have the time, inclination or money for total body hair removal, spray tans and false eyelashes so yes I absolutely would hate dh looking at other I realistically perfect women, it would make me feel awful and if I told him that he wouldn't go for that reason alone.

RedToothBrush Sun 10-Feb-13 12:03:51

Bang on EllieArroway

I find seeker's attitude smug, patronising and pretty condensing in all honesty. Its snobbery. Its not 'being feminist' as being feminist can cover a lot of different bases and its down to personal preference and priority. There is no 'right' feminism.

A mature man will discuss issues with their partner and make sure they were happy and understood the full situation and that works both ways. In the same way, a woman behaving in an immature fashion will stamp her feet, not listen and demand their partner does not attend without discussing the matter properly.

Being an adult doesn't mean that strippers etc are off limits. In some mature adult relationships both partners will be perfectly happy with the presence of a stripper in certain contexts. The point is communicating makes the difference in what makes an adult and what doesn't.

I think seeker is mistaking her own beliefs for behaviours that make for an adult relationship.

Besides this thread isn't really about the moral virtue of stripping; every time the subject comes up, some people sieze on it to have a loud shouty platform to push their agenda. They don't listen to what the real issue is, and think the solution is to be uncompromising and to issue black and white judgments.

This is about communication, trust, sharing the same values, understanding whats important to your partner, understanding the nature of other relationships your partner might have and working with your partner in a positive way so that both parties aren't put in a situation where the other is more in control than the other.

A good adult relationship isn't about everything being perfect and 'pure' the entire time. Its about understanding how to deal with the difficult, awkward, uncomfortable situations you don't like in a positive way that suits all parties, not just one.

I hope the OP, takes that on board more than anything else. What she may decide in the end is that her beliefs about strippers are very important to her and she can't reconcile that with the person she is currently with because she can not discuss the subject with him in a constructive way. Thats fine. But so long as she understands that she has to act in a mature fashion to get a mature response in return; her current way will never achieve that.

Trust is easily broken and its hard work to build, restore and maintain. It can be done; its hard work, but possible with the right approach and right attitude. And, yeah, it also depends on whether the person you are with is also capable of doing the same and is worth the effort.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 12:06:21

The naivety of the women on here is astounding, people really don't understand the difference between a naked butler and topless "waitresses", really ?
Even male and female strippers are totally different, the day you get male strippers spreading their arse cheeks for women to get a better view is the day they will even be remotely similar.

As said before, booking women for private events, in clubs , hotel rooms /private homes etc. is booking *prostitutes^ to provide sexual services, usually interactive/ audience participation - blowjobs in front of the boys (and worse) in hideous reality.

That's also what anything with "Gentlemens" in the title actually is, Gentlemens dinner, Gentlemens breakfast, Gentlemens sports evening, they all involve public sexual activity with prostitutes strippers .

I'm absolutely astounded at the casual acceptance (by women) of the sex industry on this thread.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 12:06:24

It's not a cop-out. It relates to who has the structural power in society and part of the 'joke' is the role-reversal of men (who have that power) being in a servile, sexually objectified role towards women (who don't).

It might be crass, tasteless and lame to hire a naked butler, but it can never be the same because the power differential between men's rights and women's rights is there.

But again, I'd point out that the naked butlers that women are served by in the UK are not the same as the 'topless dancers' that men hire for parties abroad. Very few 'naked butlers' are male prostitutes and very few women at parties pay for sex. Not so in reverse, however much people want to delude themselves about these euphemisms.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 12:09:05

"Seeker I agree with everything you said, until When you have naked butlers, part of what makes it entertaining is the role reversal. How funny and absurd that men should be behaving like this.

So you are basically saying that naked butlers are more acceptable because women view them as a laugh?

I can't agree with that. That's a cop out."

I was asked to explain why there is a difference between naked butlers and topless waitresses. The difference is in the power balance involved.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 12:10:17

I think seeker's posts are bloody brilliant.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 12:11:58

"I find seeker's attitude smug, patronising and pretty condensing in all honesty. Its snobbery. Its not 'being feminist' as being feminist can cover a lot of different bases and its down to personal preference and priority"

Absolutely. But it can't cover the support of the abuse of women. And supporting the sex industry supports the abuse of women. Leaving aside the political and philosophical objections.

scottishmummy Sun 10-Feb-13 12:13:05

how utterly bumptious you are bela.I see because posters have temerity to disagree they are naive
frankly I think naked male butler, and topless waitress is seedy and gratuitously unnecessary
it's funny to see you deride others for not fawning and agreeing with you

RedToothBrush Sun 10-Feb-13 12:17:04

Some people are vegetarian.
Some people are vegan.
Some people boycott certain products or shops.
Some people wear fur.
Some people refuse to wear leather.
Some people buy fair trade only.
Some people buy organic.
Some people avoid buying diamonds from certain sources.

And some people don't care, don't feel its a priority, think there's other things to worry about.

And the thing is you don't change the hearts and minds of a lot of those people by throwing a strop about it, alienating them or telling them they are stupid or just wrong. or that men are only adults if they wouldn't see a stripper

Try a different approach and people might listen rather than automatically tune out....

BubblesPebblesx2 Sun 10-Feb-13 12:20:05

It is the dishonesty that is the problem. My partner went on a stag do when our DS was 6 months old. I felt unattractive as had not expected to have so much skin left after baby was out (no-one tells you that part!) and was told there would be none of that sort of thing going on. Wouldn't have minded too much if they had but no new mum wants to learn that their OH is checking out other women whilst they're at home up to their elbows in mashed up wotsits.

2 weeks after he gets back turns out he'd point blank lied about it as our joint savings acc had had £200 taken out of in the branch where they were on said stag do. After a lot of questioning (completely justified- that money was half mine and we were saving for our deposit on our first house at the time) he admits they went to a strip club. I had told him I wouldn't have had a problem with this, he was best man and you do expect men to do this sort of thing when they get a couple of days freedom. What was not Ok was to find out another month down the line that he had actually used our savings for his own private dances. That was my bottom line and he had sprinted past it for the sake of a set of fake tits and a tight tummy.

YANBU to be upset about the the lack of truth involved. The rest I can't comment on as it's very much personal opinion.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 12:23:02

"Try a different approach and people might listen rather than automatically tune out...."

What approach would you suggest?

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 12:23:12

A mature man will discuss issues with their partner and make sure they were happy and understood the full situation and that works both ways. In the same way, a woman behaving in an immature fashion will stamp her feet, not listen and demand their partner does not attend without discussing the matter properly.

I think you've got that the wrong way round haven't you? And how revealing that you've highlighted what you perceive to be women's immature behaviour, when we're discussing a man who allegedly didn't want to partake, but didn't have the balls to show out in front of his mates, then lied through his teeth about it to the OP until he had no choice. If that's your definition of 'mature men's' behaviour, I despair.

Conversely, there is no evidence of a woman 'stamping her feet, not listening, demanding and not discussing'. The OP has instead talked about her upset about the lies, the long discussions she's had with her partner about this and how she's listened to his views.

That's a hell of a projection you've got going on there. Ever wondered why that might be Redtoothbrush?

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 12:25:16

* He was best man and you do expect men to do this sort of thing when they get a couple of days freedom*
I don't!

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 12:30:13

I think some of you are a bit naive about what actually happens in some of these clubs. Our local lap dancing club definitely offers more than a dance and the girls sleep with the manager to qualify for a job. Nice eh and not exploitative at all?
Bil went to a "gentleman s evening a while ago and saw a stripper sit on a dildo held in the teeth of an audience member whilst she wanked him off.
Hardly harmless entertainment really is it?

Ashoething Sun 10-Feb-13 12:39:16

If the jiggling of bodily parts in a strangers face is so normal and acceptable then exactly WHY arent there lap dancing bars for women everywhere where they are treated to a dry hump by male strippers in every major town?hmm

Think about it....

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 12:40:37

I agree scottishmummy.

I'm not naive. I'm asking for a genuine reason, because I suspect we gals just may be kidding ourselves when it comes to the tables being turned. So far I haven't been offered one. That more women than men are exploited in the sex industry than men, and that less women pay for sex doesn't make naked butlers any more acceptable! It just means there's less of it...but it doesn't answer my question of what makes it ok for us.

Ashoething Sun 10-Feb-13 12:42:37

Yep ledkr-as I said further up the thread you only have to watch one of those vile lads stags do shows to see what goes on and they probably dont show the half of it! Yet the staggering thing is that their partners waived them off happily and must have known what they were getting up too and yet they still wanted to MARRY them! eewwwww!

I have had 2 cousins go on stag do's in the past year-1 to prague and 1 to estonia. They were both quite blase on fb about what they intended to do-strippers and getting off their faces. Twats the pair of them.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 12:43:11

I agree with that ledkr. I think a hell of a lot of posters on this thread haven't the first clue what happens behind the scenes in clubs - and not the foggiest about sex industry cultural norms in countries abroad.

I also don't think all posters have read the thread, especially the OP's posts. She has commented on the different cultural norms between the UK and where she lives, she's spoken eloquently about the long discussions she's had with her partner about this, she's written about the lies causing her to worry about something that had never caused her concern before, even to the extent that she was fine with her partner going on holidays with his sex-industry consumer pals without her.

But for reasons best known to themselves, posters have overlooked all that and have declared her to be a foot-stamping, controlling, uptight and immature woman.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 12:46:39

What seeker and Bela have said.

Delphine, if you're still here wink - Your DH can make clear his dislike of purchasing sex services (preferably his dislike, not 'because the wife says') and quit when the women arrive. If there's a late-night bar or cafe nearby, he could go there and may be surprised to find some of the others joining him. There are often a few would-be abstainers in a stag party, waiting for someone else to take the initiative and arrange something else.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 12:47:08

pictish it doesn't make it alright for 'us'. I think women hiring naked butlers is crass, tasteless, sexually objectifying of men and like a Full Monty show, would be about as entertaining to me personally as a Jim Davidson cabaret wink.

But it's not the same and can never be when men have more rights in society than women, not just in the sex industry, but in every sphere of life.

quoteunquote Sun 10-Feb-13 12:48:55

My husband refuses to go to anything that involves women being used,

It is entirely his choice made long before he met me, he just happens to have an opinion that he doesn't want to contribute to women being exploited, it doesn't really limit his social life, as the vast majority of his male friends also don't enjoy using women, when they go away they have a lot of fun, doing extreme sports, gaming, mixing, partying,festivals, they have an amazing time.

Your choices define you,

I doubt I would of continued to be attracted to him, had I when getting to know him, noticed he supported using women, or anyone else,

I'm sure that one of the things that made me think this is the guy for me was his personal moral code.

for me, how someone behaves towards and cares about others is important,

When suppliers are trying to woo our business, they often put on entertainment nights, and wonder why he is not interested in attending, it's so normalised that it doesn't occur to them that some men don't want to be a part of it. He then finds new suppliers.

we have as a couple being doing support work for people in difficult situations, you can't do that in an honest way if you are involved in the persecution,

My husband grew up in a home where his mother, took in distressed women and their children, so he saw first hand the results of men's behaviour to women, MiL never said no as she knew there was no where else in those days for women to go,

you don't have to be around support work for very long before you understand the effect the sex industry has on women, it's not harmless, so if you support it you are a part of the abuse and all the ripple outwards,

OP, I really feel for you, your husband has different values to yourself, that is going to be very hard to live with.

I always wonder with these men that use strippers, if they would encourage their mums,wives, sisters or daughters into doing it, I assume so, which is so creepy,

It is not logical that they wouldn't want their own family members doing it, if they want other people's mums, wives,daughters and sisters to do it.

Who wants to be with a man who will get his daughter to strip to excite men.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 12:49:45

seeker
" "Try a different approach and people might listen rather than automatically tune out...."

What approach would you suggest?"

Maybe seeing that objectifying a person for their body is objectifying them regardless of sex.

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 12:50:36

"I think women hiring naked butlers is crass, tasteless, sexually objectifying of men and like a Full Monty show, would be about as entertaining to me personally as a Jim Davidson cabaret"

yy I agree.

But again...you are saying that it is more acceptable for women than men, because there's less of it. Surely the attitudes are the same?

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 12:50:56

Exactly Ledker.
The thing I object to most of all with this kind of shit is how women are conned for want of a better word about what goes on at stag do's, all male events etc.
Treated like Mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed shit.

I've seen the argument that men view going to a strip club as "no big deal" a bit like live porn, pretty meaningless - if that was even partially true, why all the secrecy and lies surrounding those activities?

"he was best man and you do expect men to do this sort of thing when they get a couple of days freedom" - What a horrible view of men to have , I don't expect men to behave like that, the 3 men I know best in my life certainly don't.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 12:52:04

"I'm not naive. I'm asking for a genuine reason, because I suspect we gals just may be kidding ourselves when it comes to the tables being turned. So far I haven't been offered one. That more women than men are exploited in the sex industry than men, and that less women pay for sex doesn't make naked butlers any more acceptable! It just means there's less of it...but it doesn't answer my question of what makes it ok for us."

I don't think I said it was "OK for us, did I? I meant to say that it was different. And I thought I had explained why?

Interesting that we're talking about men again, isn't it?

scottishmummy Sun 10-Feb-13 12:53:31

ok so clamber down off your soapbox,what a huge extrapolation you make
men who go see lapdance will have daughters who sexually excite men for money?
and yiu know this how?I do agree participation in lapdance clubs supports sex industry.but no way can you predict this to these men will get their daughters to strip to excite men

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 12:54:22

There are often a few would-be abstainers in a stag party, waiting for someone else to take the initiative and arrange something else.

YY to this. My male relatives have done done this several times, when they've been invited to stag parties. As either the first ones to say 'no thanks, that's not my thing' or as following abstainers. The peer pressure involved in this culture is enormous, but all it needs is a bit of leadership for others to follow.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 12:54:29

Delphine, does your BIL's fiancée know about the 'strippers'?

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 12:54:38

Pictish- have you read the posts about the power balance? Oh, and I don't actually think there is any evidence of men being trafficked and abused in the sex industry in any great numbers? There is presumably no need to- because there are enough men who are are prepared to do it for the money. I suspect that it is a free choice for male strippers.

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 12:54:39

Look - I'm not up for any of it...no matter who is doing it.
I'm just thinking out loud.
I still haven't had a good reason why women doing it is less sleazy and exploitative than men...that's all.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 12:56:27

No it's not more acceptable for women. It's just as unacceptable in my view.

Just because something's equally unacceptable, doesn't mean it's equally politically meaningful when it happens.

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 12:56:49

I suspect that it is a free choice for male strippers.

mmm...there, now I think that's genuinely naive, because I wouldn't presume that to be true. I think men are victims of sexual exploitation too.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 12:57:10

I'm not too bothered as to what other women find acceptable in their own relationships. What always pisses me off on these threads is that posters are told they are controlling and insecure just because they don't like it.
It always seems the most secure and solid women on here who do object.
It is ok to disagree in a relationship you know.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 13:01:44

"I suspect that it is a free choice for male strippers."

mmm...there, now I think that's genuinely naive, because I wouldn't presume that to be true. I think men are victims of sexual exploitation too."

That's why I said "I suspect". However, are you aware of a big problem of trafficked men working in the sex industry?

Have you read the posts about the power balance?)

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 13:03:23

Yes...I have...but I didn't consider them relevant to MY query. You haven't disclosed anything I didn't already know.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 13:05:09

Fgs, pictish, don't be so daft! Try posting an ad for men to be paid for sex.
Wade through your replies and then tell me who's objectifying whom.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 13:05:34

Ashoething
"Yep ledkr-as I said further up the thread you only have to watch one of those vile lads stags do shows to see what goes on and they probably dont show the half of it!"

If you believe that these shows are the norm then you are naive

ledkr

"What always pisses me off on these threads is that posters are told they are controlling and insecure just because they don't like it."

What is controlling is telling someone what they can and can't do.
If the OP or anyone else finds it a dealbreaker then fair enough. On this thread we have had a poster tell their DP that they couldn't go clubbing because the Ex was there, if it had been a male that did this etc. etc.

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 13:06:48

Sorry Garlic - I don't quite grasp what you mean.

FutTheShuckUp Sun 10-Feb-13 13:08:26

I find threads like this very odd indeed. I seem to be in a minority that isn't afraid of telling my husband what behaviour I would be unhappy with, without fear of being called controlling/insecure etc as he would to me. And whats even odder it would seem is that we both listen to one another!

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 13:09:34

Sorry, pictish, mine was a response to your post ten minutes ago:

" I suspect that it is a free choice for male strippers.

"mmm...there, now I think that's genuinely naive, because I wouldn't presume that to be true. I think men are victims of sexual exploitation too. "

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 13:10:10

Fair point well made, Fut grin

pictish Sun 10-Feb-13 13:14:22

Do you not think men are sexually exploited too then?

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 13:15:29

Fut

The difference is in the discussion. He listens to you. You listen to him.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 13:15:36

boney how do you know they aren't the norm? They are common enough though? I'm basing my assumptions on what men have told me that's all I can do.

manorandshua Sun 10-Feb-13 13:16:02

It's a stag do!!! I wouldn't question my DH what happened and certainly wouldn't try to stop him going to one. Also why would women remove their wedding rings just to go on stage and join a male stripper? The stripper surely don't care if those women are married or not. It's a job for them that's all.if your other half wants to wonder off he will find the opportunity to do so.

scrumpkin Sun 10-Feb-13 13:17:43

I don't think you are bu and a would be mad he would even think of going.

Somehow the fact they are having girls at the apartment makes it seem even seedier. Grim.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 13:18:20

Pictish what might help is to reverse this.

Imagine that we lived in a world where women had the majority of power. They got paid more than men, men could have babies and the expectation was that they would ditch their careers to be the SAHP, the mainly female government frequently legislated about their reproductive rights, in some countries they had their penises tampered with to ensure they didn't enjoy sex and remained faithful or virginal for women. Where the culture was that women had the right to sex however it was attained - by eroding consent or buying it from men, many of whom sold sex as a coerced choice. Where the majority of people buying sex were women and there were very few (in comparison terms) female prostitutes and of those, most were booked by lesbians or bisexual women.

In this imaginary society, would the scenario of a topless female waiter who wasn't going to sell sex to men who have no cultural expecation to buy it, be equivalent to a male stripper who often earns more by selling sex to women, who do?

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 13:21:05

God this thread has amazed me! To be called controlling and unreasonable for not wanting your dh to go and see strippers is completely ludicrous. I am shocked at how many women on here feel that this is acceptable behaviour from men and are seemingly quite happy for it to continue in their own relationships. I think that these woman are deluding themselves and normalising really dreadful male behaviour. And as for women who go and see male strippers - words actually fail me.

I would never, ever be with a man who felt that it was ok to go and see strippers- my husband feels the same way about the whole issue as I do and tbh he does not have the sort of friends who feel that this is acceptable either. I am disgusted at the amount of women who are happy to legitimise this behaviour in a 'lads will be lads' kind of way - wtf?

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 13:21:27

Yes for gods sake " it's a stag do!" They are only men they need to see naked women stag dis are where men can do and behave as they please regardless of whether they are married!!
Jeez is it just me?

DadOnIce Sun 10-Feb-13 13:21:54

It's not within your remit to say that your DP "can" or "can't" do something. if someone posted on here that their DH had told them they could not do something, he'd get called controlling and a bully. What you can do is explain your point of view and allow him to make an informed and balanced choice.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 13:23:27

ledker

Do you believe that big fat gypsy wedding is the norm?
How many men do you know?
Do you assume that they speak for all men?

I have never been to a strip club or a lapdancing club, non of my male friends have.
I know more women that have been to see strippers than men, should I take this as the norm?

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 13:26:14

ledkr- what a ridiculous post. FFS - this thread is really depressing.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 13:26:41

I wonder just how many women have stood making their vows of marriage in front of family and friends, with some of the groom's friends smirking at the "secrets" of the stag night and how they managed to pull the wool over her eyes so successfully, perhaps showing the pictures around later at the reception?
How many women start off their married life on a huge lie - utterly disrespected by the man who should respect her above all others?

There might be some women who aren't bothered by their partner having his cock sucked by a stripper at his stag do, 99.9% of women however would be extremely bothered by it.

Even if a stag night only includes a standard lapdance for the stag, how is paying a young woman to take off her clothes and dance in a sexual way in front of you a celebration of your impending marriage?
It's utterly bizzare and I don't understand how it has been so completely normalised, so much so that practically everyone thinks that a stag night without strippers would be unthinkable and women are made to feel unreasonable for having very valid objections.
Look at a few wedding forums - it's a massive issue and women are made to feel like prudish killjoys for expressing concerns about it - they feel like they can't possibly object because "it's what men do", "boys will be boys" or anything else designed to make them STFU.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 13:27:02

I've worked in several lap dancing bars, in my student days. There are plenty of women who go to the, with friends and partners. I'm sure some gentlemanly clubs may also be harbouring prostitutes, but to make that statement about all lap dancing bars is ludicrous.

limitedperiodonly Sun 10-Feb-13 13:29:42

What always pisses me off on these threads is that posters are told they are controlling and insecure just because they don't like it.

Pisses me off too ledkr. The OP doesn't like strippers and she doesn't like lying. Seems reasonable to me.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 13:29:43

Well I've got a friend who is a doorman in one my ex bf and my bil told me their stories. Not loads no bit you base your assumptions on no evidence at all so mine is slightly better!!
Not quite sure how bfgw fits in though?
Many shit things aren't the norm it doesn't mean you can't base your opinions of something on the minority.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 13:31:24

I can't be arsed reading the whole thread because the first page depressed me enough.

You are NOT controlling for expecting your DP not to pay to ogle possibly exploited women. You are NOT being unrealistic by expecting grown men to be able to have a night out without feeling the need to pay to see another woman's tits/fanny.

Some of the posters on here need to higher their fucking standards a bit IMO.

Op, YANBU. There will be posters on here who think they are the cool wife/girlfriend because they let their partners go to strip clubs. In reality, they are the ones that are insecure. They let their partners go and they act cool with it because they think that their DPs will leave them. So they go along with it. It's all very sad. Very sad and very depressing.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 13:31:38

I'm sorry? Which post is ridiculous??

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 13:31:54

What pisses me off though in threads like these, is no one minding the OPs investigations and interrogation! And then saying what he cannot do! If my husband was like that with me, I would leave. That's why they are calling her controlling!

DrinkFeckArseGirls Sun 10-Feb-13 13:34:23

Erm.? I can't believe the first answeres. Of course YANBU. If it's a deal breaker for you, he needs to accept it and either do mot 'enjoy' strippers or 'enjoy' them and bd prepared to for the relatio ship to finish. How the fuck is it controllibg not wanting your DP to be around naked women working to titilate men around them?

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 13:39:51

It might help to actually read the thread Girloutnumbered. That is not what is being said, at *all .
Countrykitten, Ledkr was being sarcastic - again, read the damn thread.

Boney, my ( ex-forces) DH is almost 50 and has never seen a stripper, he says he only knows of perhaps half a dozen men out of the hundreds he has known who have gone to strip clubs, I think his experience is unusual though, there are definitely certain types of men for whom LDC's etc. are normal behaviour.
I work for a large computer company, the (male) sales team has just returned from a large trade fair in Germany and to meet the new German bosses - they were treated to a night in a VIP room in a strip club and given stripper "dollars" to pay the strippers with, they were told they had to pay for "extras" themselves, apparently two men spent in excess of £400, one is single but one is married and I would have previously said he was a decent man.

idococktailshedoesbeer Sun 10-Feb-13 13:42:51

DP has been to lapdancing clubs very occasionally, usually on stag dos, for the reasons DontmindifIdo outlined. Don't have a problem with it, he doesn't seem massively enthused.

DP does have work friends who get up to remarkably seedy stuff, brothels etc, on their regular work trips, their wives don't have a clue. But that doesn't mean DP agrees with their choices or does it himself.

Could you just remind your DP you don't want him participating him in any stripper/lap dancing activity? I don't think you can ask him not to go to his own DB's stag night though. I would feel harsh doing that.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 13:46:31

Country kitten? An apology would be nice and yay way to go to prove your point just slag off one post without reading the thread!!

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 13:49:49

I've read all of the thread and all of the over the top hysterical responses.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 13:51:10

"It's not within your remit to say that your DP "can" or "can't" do something. if someone posted on here that their DH had told them they could not do something, he'd get called controlling and a bully"

I disagree.

If someone started an AIBU "DH says he will leave me if I go to a strip club on a hen weekend" I think there would be a resounding YABU given.

This sucks, big time.

Just another way of men getting one over on women, if you ask me. They've got this stitched up nicely haven't they, when women turn on one another on this issue and call the objecting woman insecure/controlling.

Nice one, patriarchy.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 13:54:51

Girl and many, many other "cool" WAGS, I've got an idea smile

Next time your OH goes out on a "men's night", how about you and the other partners get a bunch of random blokes round your house, give them loads of alcohol and strip off for them? You could even encourage these blokes to stick their faces in your vulva and lick your tits. That'll be good fun, won't it. I'm sure your partners will understand.

smile

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 13:55:08

BLS - I have read the whole thread so no need for you to wade in FGS.

ledkr - yes,my apologies are due and I am genuinely sorry. I misunderstood what you had posted. This is a topic that has really shocked me with its responses from women and I started seeing red -turned in to a bit of a keyboard warrior there for a sec!

Sorry again.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 13:57:47

Erm, my DH doesn't go on 'men's nights!' But the thought of it does make me chuckle.

I've just worked in lap dancing bars and see no problem with them. That's all.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 14:04:32

I've been a customer in table/lap dancing bars, on business entertainment. I see a problem.

You know what I hated the most? That look on some of the men's faces. It's a scary look, sort of dead-eyed and predatory at the same time. Utterly focused on the girl. Still gives me the creeps to think about it. If you were a dancer, you must know the look I mean.

I also loathed the way some groups of men (at other tables - mine had manners, it was my account!) spoke to the dancers - deliberately insulting; worse than a farmer trying to beat the price down at a livestock market. The fact they must get off on rubbishing women's bodies. Very depressing.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 14:05:18

'hysterical'

Know the origins of that word girl?

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 14:10:54

Girloutnumbered it is sad to hear that you (and so many others here on this thread) see nothing wrong with lap dancing clubs. I think agree with another poster who says that these women must be insecure and are worried that their men will up and leave if they do not agree to it.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 14:14:27

Why are some women so determined to act cool with this? Why? If you cool wives can give me a legitimate reason for you not minding your DH/DP paying lots (the sex industry is pricey!) of cash for a titty jiggle from some poor, exploited Eastern European woman I will buy it.

Have we had "well I know lapdancers who are titty jiggling to find their masters in fine arts" yet? I bet we have. hmm

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 14:18:11

ledkr

Your annocdotal evidence is better than my annocdotal evidence, that made me chuckle.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 14:20:23

"worse than a farmer trying to beat the price down at a livestock market. The fact they must get off on rubbishing women's bodies".

Yep, the punters I heard joking about the German club were discussing the size of the black dancer's nipples and which of the women had real tits - I didn't hang around to hear any more angry .

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 14:21:44

Listen, it's not sad that I have a different opinion to you. I'm sure there are plenty of things we would and wouldn't agree about.

I am very secure in both myself as a women and as a wife. If my husband chose to go, that's his decision. It is not my place to say what he can do. If he did go, I'm sure he would be titalated by what he sees, that's the point of them.... What harm it is supposed to do I am not sure.

I have worked in five different lap dancing bars, one perhaps a bit seedier, but in all of them, a mix of men and women, low life and high fliers, just like you get in any bar around the country.

Any way, you will never see my point and I don't really care. It just makes me laugh as someone said up thread, that loads of people will get het up and post on this topic, but not something which perhaps people should be worrying about.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 14:24:58

Why shouldn't people be worrying about their husbands/partners oiling the greasy cogs of an industry that harms/abuses/exploits women?

Why wouldn't you worry about that?

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 14:25:34

Are you still a dancer, Girl?

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 14:27:21

garlicblocks
"You know what I hated the most? That look on some of the men's faces. It's a scary look, sort of dead-eyed and predatory at the same time. Utterly focused on the girl. Still gives me the creeps to think about it. If you were a dancer, you must know the look I mean."

A similar thing but the flipside of this, The only time that I was ever scared when working a summer season in a theatre was when the chippendales was on. The looks on some of the womens faces was completely animalistic

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 14:32:07

The hyper-sexualisation of girls and women, women seen as things to be looked at and paid for, womens sexuality seen as purely for men, the culture of secrets and lies within relationships concerning mens' behaviour around the sex industry? No, not something people should be worrying about. hmm

Garlic, your post reminds me of a programme on BBC 3 recently about strip clubs, that look you describe was prominent amongst the men shown, one was on a low sofa watching a woman on a head-height table in front of him , he was watching her unblinking like a reptile as she turned over, arse in the air, legs wide open, 6 inches from his face - it made me feel quite sick.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 14:34:13

Sorry, I didn't make it clear. Not a dancer... Worked behind the bar at them whilst at uni. The tips were amazing.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 14:34:42

Le sigh....

pigletmania Sun 10-Feb-13 14:36:29

Really op your the issue here. You obviously don't trust him and this is coming out in your behaviour towards him, stifling him and treating him like a child. If its ok fo you to be around strippers it's ok fo him. He feels he has to lie Mabey as he's scared of your reaction. Give him some space. You don own him, he has every right to be at his brothers stag do I he wants. Why are you with him if you don't trust him!

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 14:40:52

She doesn't trust him for a good reason.

This isn't her problem.

Why does everyone keep saying he has a "right" to go on his bro's stag do? They aren't fucking compulsory, you know? It's not like he's not going to go to the wedding. You know? The day that actually matters?

And also, he has the "right" to go to the stag, but OP doesn't have the right to a DP that doesn't take part in objectifying women? Nice. Really nice.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 14:41:23

Oh well GON - if the tips were amazing....confused

BelleEtLaBaby Sun 10-Feb-13 14:44:02

Um, I don't give or not give my DH 'permission' to do anything. I'm an adult in a marriage to another adult. Im not his mum. We both do what we want. I assume that the list of things DH does not want to do, of his own accord, includes having sex with other women. Isn't this a given?

If he is going to cheat on me, he'll do it, be that at a stag do, at work, or with one of the other million women he encounters all day throughout his life. If he cheats on me, I'll throw him out. I'm pretty sure that DH isn't going to leap from his default position of fidelity to madly shagging some waitress girl just because she waved her boobs in his face or sat on his lap. He's not an animal and I credit him with some self control and an ability to make decisions.

Op: you sound very overly concerned. Have you been cheated on before, or did your parents break up because of infidelity or something like this? Honestly, you must trust your dp and assume he is not going to cheat on you. If he is the sort of bloke who would cheat on you just because of peer pressure or opportunity, do you really want him to stick around anyway?

Please do not beg for his fidelity. Assume it. Leave him if he breaks it.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 14:44:20

What's your point Kitten?

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 14:45:47

That sounds odd to me, Boney, because the male strip things I've been to - including a Chippendales show - were all about laughter. Everybody was hamming it, act and audience alike. But now you've mentioned it, actually, I remember a couple of women at the Chippendales who did seem to be taking it all a bit too seriously. They were constantly on the corner of the stage, looking kind of - I would have said desperate, but predatory might be just as true. Weird.

In tune with Seeker's posts and others, though, there simply cannot be a direct comparison until men are as oppressed by women as is currently true in reverse. The man my colleagues hired for a good-humoured body oil extravaganza was in no danger at all of unwanted handling, molestation or rape. His show reminded me of what pub stripograms used to be like in the olden days when I were young wink Suggestive, yes, but with all of the emphasis on humour. It's just not like that any more. I wish it were; for a humorous entertainment to work, there has to be mutual respect.

jellybeans Sun 10-Feb-13 14:51:01

YANBU. I would hate it too. I hate the way it has been 'normalised' by much of society at the cost of women and young girls. My elderly SFIL recently made me cringe when talking about a stag do he was going on soon, there would be meals out, strip clubs etc he just said it so casually but I found it grim.

jellybeans Sun 10-Feb-13 14:58:01

'Why are some women so determined to act cool with this? Why? '

This is an interesting book on the subject www.amazon.co.uk/Female-Chauvinist-Pigs-Raunch-Culture/dp/1416526382

I think some women have the attitude 'if you can't beat em join em' sort of thing. I also know several who don't want to be seen as prudes so brag about what their hubbies do on a night out. They may think their husbands are less likely to stray but it often turns out that they seem to think they can get away with it. After all sex with someone else isn't that big a step from a naked lap dance.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 14:59:10

If none of you want to answer my suggestion that you strip off for a load of random blokes next time your OH goes out with the lads, Girl, Piglet & co, please will you tell me what you think of this?

Another story from my vast archive of Things We Used To Spend Our Entertainment Budgets On ...

We had a male boss who was quite fond of a strip night. So, for his birthday one year, we booked an alternative theatre group as a sort of large-scale stripogram experience. They 'invaded' our restaurant and did an absolutely superb act, which culminated with a man dressed as a female stripper, who gave the boss a lap dance grin

We cut it short a little bit because the boss was so upset. He'd already got the point, anyway.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 15:01:15

I don't understand your point Garlic? Why on earth is it relevant?

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:06:28

GON - my point was that you seemed to be bragging about your tips as if this somehow made it ok. You picked up your tips because letchy men were there watching other women flash their tits. Can't you see how seedy that is?

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 15:08:23

Why is what relevant, Girl? Here's what I've been asking, in various ways:
As you and your partner are so cool about men paying for the harmless enjoyment of a pretty girl stripping off, it follows logically that
[a] It will be totally harmless and cool if you strip off for drunk men you don't know, and
[b] It will be equally harmless and cool if a man strips off for your DH.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 15:11:54

No countrykitten I can't see how seedy it is, because I worked there and you didn't. You are basing your judgement on what you think goes on. I am basing mine on actually working there.

There were quite a few 'letchy' men as there are in all pubs/clubs - but alot of lovely men AND women on a night out. FWIW (in the context of the OP), stag parties were rarely allowed in.

They don't just flash their tits by the way. Surely that would be a peep show.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 15:13:00

In Delphine's particular case, we could also add:
[c] It's harmless to lie to your partner about it.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 15:14:24

Maybe it would be relevant if I wanted to WORK in a lap dancing bar and get paid for it. Stripping for random men while my husband goes out is not relevant and is a bit stupid.

Anyway, I don't remember saying my husband thinks its fine. He doesn't, he's the shy retiring type and it would embarrass him terribly.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 15:14:57

ah now there I agree Garlic. Absolutely not fine to lie.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:15:06

No - I imagine that they flash a great deal more than just their tits. And you have missed my point - I am not saying that any individual club was seedy, I am saying that the whole concept of the thing is seedy - and you were happy to make money out of it.

And fwiw I think that your idea of 'lovely' people may well be different to mine.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 15:21:10

Apart from the tips being great <eye roll> what other job satisfaction did you get from serving over-priced drinks to sweaty-palmed men who'd probably been wanking in their booth five minutes earlier, over one of your less fortunate colleagues?

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 15:22:16

I used to be awfully insecure and when BIL got married they all went to a lap dancing bar, I wasn't invited to SILTB hen do, we don't get on however I waited up in some new lingerie for him and gave him a special dance of his own! Asking him the next day about then strippers all he would harp on about is how cool I was for waiting up for him with a treat, I got the princess treatment for a week.

4 years later and he still remembers that little private show, despite a few more since, he said it was my confidence and nonchalant attitude he loved, don't wait up in a dressing gown and a frown - why go out for burger when you have steak at home!

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 15:23:08

Stripping for random men while my husband goes out is not relevant and is a bit stupid.

It's relevant because the only difference between you stripping off and the dancer doing it is money. For the thought experiment, it's fine if you make your imaginary audience pay. I don't see that it changes anything.

my husband ... the shy retiring type and it would embarrass him terribly

Ah, so your position is purely theoretical? There's no danger at all that you will have to face the situation you're advising others to accept?

grin

Trazzletoes Sun 10-Feb-13 15:24:09

Argh! I'm not in the least bit insecure and afraid my DH would leave me if I asked him not to go to a strip club for his DB's stag do.

I genuinely wouldn't care if he went or not!

Why are you trying to put down all the women on this thread who don't have a problem with strip clubs? Why the negativity towards us hjust because this is something that doesn't bother us. We are not desperate, insecure or trying to be cool! WE TRUST OUR OHs!!!!!!!!!

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 15:24:52

haha Marmalade. It was a job while I was at uni. Are you really suggesting that I was working for job satisfaction?!
Can I point out AGAIN that there is a large mix of men and women.

Wanking in their booth? The ones with full CCTV? Yes, I'm sure that happens loads <eye roll>.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:26:03

Princess is your post a wind up?

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 15:27:05

It is always a job when you are at uni', Girl. People only ever work in these places when they are at uni', apparently.

Couldn't give a shit if the ratio was 90-10 women to men. That's even more depressing. You almost expect men to buy into this shit. That women are buying into it is very sad.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:27:44

I trust my husband completely. He does not need to go to strip clubs for me to prove this to him.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 15:28:03

Princess's post is everything that is wrong with women today.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 15:29:41

"I got the princess treatment for a week"
Jesus H Christ, I don't know where to begin with that post sad .

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:30:05

I'm still hoping that she will come back and say it was a wind up. Please come back and say it was a wind up....sad

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 15:30:53

No it's not a wind up, I took control of being insecure and felt better about myself....I think it's called having fun.

Samu2 Sun 10-Feb-13 15:33:10

I don't think you are U for your feelings.

I am very against strippers and all that and thankfully my husband feels the same and wouldn't be seen dead in one, you would never get him on a night out like that his friends and family are also not the type to have stage do's at stripper clubs.

His brother went go cart racing and my husband went for a meal for his and was back at 10.pm grin

This was something we discussed before we made a commitment to each other so we knew we were on the same page. You don't seem to have much choice, OP. You can't force him to not go but at the same time it would be nice for him to respect your feelings if it really bothers you so much. If my husband has a huge issue with something I would take his opinion into consideration.

You can't realistically tell him he can't go.. if you threaten him with separation he might just take you up on it and would you really want to end your relationship with him over this? if he feels trapped into not going you are going to end up being resented.

Good luck xx

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 15:33:45

So would you do it for some other blokes, too, Princess? And would DH be fine with that?

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 15:34:59

"No it's not a wind up, I took control of being insecure and felt better about myself....I think it's called having fun."

You should try getting yourself a more adult partner instead of one that makes you feel like you have to do that^ sort of thing to validate yourself.

Just a thought.

limitedperiodonly Sun 10-Feb-13 15:35:05

garlic I remember that dead eyed look you're talking about from years ago when a friend had a work account at Stringfellows.

It was just when it was changing from a cheesy disco to that Angels poledancing thing which is why a group of us women went.

We were going to get our coats and my friend asked a man staring at a pole dancer if she could get by. She joked: 'Oops. I nearly stepped on your tongue there' and he unleashed the vilest torrent of abuse I think I've ever heard. And I'm not sheltered. It was shocking and actually quite frightening.

The idea that he would have turned down the chance for a flirty conversation with a real life attractive 20-something to stare blankly at a paid-for stripper chills me to this day.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 15:36:37

You can't realistically tell him he can't go.. if you threaten him with separation he might just take you up on it

Really, Princess, you are THAT dozy???

You've just told OP her husband might care more about a hand-job in a spare room than about his marriage!

I'm bloody sure I'd want a separation from a husband like that!

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 15:37:57

Yes: frightening, limited sad

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 15:38:56

I wouldn't strip for other men, I don't have the body for it tbh they would probably pay me to keep my clothes on with the botched c-section scar.

My point is, I was worried because I thought he would see these women and see me as less attractive, turns out he didn't. Sexy can be an attitude not just a look.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 15:39:53

Eugh.

So you wouldn't have rathered he just didn't go, Princess?

Vile.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:40:46

princess what is the 'princess treatment'? Was it your 'reward' for what you did? For behaving like the lap dancers he'd been watching that night? You see yourself as competing with the dancers (the vile steak/burger comment makes that clear - both pieces of meat...waking up yet?) so tell me how feeling that you have to compete with lap dancers makes you a secure woman?

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 15:41:52

It's not fucking insecure to not want a partner who pays young women to take all their clothes off and put on a highly sexualised display inches away from them, why would you want a man capable of doing that? What does it say about how they view women? You can be damn sure that they wouldn't want their daughter doing it.

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 15:42:35

I think I should clarify I also like my husband to strip for me too...we are such horrible horrible people.

LaQueen Sun 10-Feb-13 15:42:35

Do you trust your DP? Then, what exactly is the problem, here?

He obviously knows you, and knew that if he mentioned about the strippers/waitresses beforehand, then you would give him Hell - so he took the line of least resistance, kept quiet, hoped you wouldn't find out, but you did, and all Hell broke loose...like has happened between couples, ohhhh 30 million times before.

I expect he behaved in very much the same way that you did when there was stripper at your office party...he watched, did not get involved, had another pint...

If you want to spend the rest of your lives together policing his every move, banning him from doing stuff, questioning him at great length, and basically not trusting him...well, have fun with that.

Sounds like a great marriage to me hmm

Yabu, you cannot stop him going to his db stag do.
I don't like lapdancing/pole dancing/strippers & wouldn't be keen on my dh going to one of those places as i would be immensly jealous as these women have perfect bodies & are very attractive and the thought of him getting close to them doesn't thrill me. But i trust him & if the situation arose that he'd be invited to one of these establishments with a group of friends & family i wouldn't stop him based on my silly paronoia.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:45:23

But princess is your husband stripping for you in some sad parody of a male stripper routine because he feels he has to compete with them for your sexual attention? No? Thought not.

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 15:46:26

Princess Treatment = bubble baths, foot rubs and some loving TLC after telling him why he got the show. H was gutted that i felt I needed to prove something to him and it opened up a lot of conversation between us about our own bodily insecurities. Are you gutted he didn't make me watch loads of porn and point out where I was going wrong? Sorry he's actually quite a nice guy despite going to a lap dancing club once.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 15:46:31

Aaaaand ... this ... is ... why ... we still need feminism.

Sigh.

Goodbye, thread sad

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 15:47:54

Country Kitten - no I think he's gorgeous and I like to watch him undress with a bit of style once in a while rather than faffing around with his socks.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:48:24

Oh - that is one of the saddest posts I have read in a long, long time. I genuinely do not know what to say to you princess. Speechless and so very upset for you. sad

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:49:12

I meant princess your post about how you earned your bubble baths and foot rubs. sad

LaQueen Sun 10-Feb-13 15:49:27

I know I am emotionally flawed, because try as I might I simply cannot get worked up about DH going to a Lap Dancing Club on various stag-dos.

I know this is remis of me, and I know I should be ranting at the evil indignity of what he is doing, and questioning his ethics as a human being, and a father...

But, I just can't. I really can't.

He tells me if they went to a LDC on a stag-do, and then proceeds to moan about the price of the drinks - every single sodding time, like it's a real surprise to him hmm

I know there's been a few occasions, when on a stag-do, his mates have gone to a LDC, but DH and a couple of the others have gone for a curry instead.

I know he can take/or leave LDCs - and isn't bothered either way. And, I think that's how the majority of blokes feel about them.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 15:52:26

countrykitten - her post is sadder than the posts about DV, infidelity, poverty etc.

You then, are sadly whats wrong with women today and people as a whole. You are completely worked up about the wrong things.

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 15:52:29

Don't be sad for me Kitten, honestly overcoming my own insecurities and improving communication in my marriage is obviously upsetting for you.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:58:47

Yes - I felt it was a very sad post. It did upset me that a woman was pleased that she had earned 'princess treatment' (foot rubs and bubble baths) for a week because she waited up for her husband to come back from a lapdancing club and tried to compete with the lapdancers by stripping and dancing to get his sexual attention focused on her rather than them.

I do not understand how anyone would not be upset by this. I may well be the poster girl for all that is wrong with women today - but I doubt it.

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 15:58:56

LaQueen, like I said up-thread, that's you. Everyone is different. I'm sure your emotions are normal and healthy.

We're not talking about you, though. We're talking about the OP. She doesn't like it.

Some women don't like their partner checking out other women. I really don't mind. I don't mind if he flirts with other women either. But if another woman minds, and her partner still does it, then it is a problem.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 15:58:58

I don't think it's about emotional flaws.

I think it's about being sexist, treating men like children who can't be blamed for lying (or taking the line of least resistance as it's been euphemistically called) and deluding yourself that you know what 'most men' (whoever they are) believe. Oh and having a snide pop at another woman in another marriage, to big yourself up.

Not all men are the same as the ones you know, fortunately.

And not all women are the same either, fortunately.

FreudiansSlipper Sun 10-Feb-13 15:59:32

topless waitress hired out to serve drinks at a private party will not only be handing out drinks and lap dancing clubs are not innocent fun why gloss over what it is really about and that is sex and being able to buy women for gratification quite a power trip for many

if you are happy for your partner to be part of this fine but not wanting him to do so is not always about lacking trust many find this a step too far and others find the whole industry disgusting and shameful

If you do not want hkimto be around this then is your right he has to decide what is more important him not going is not the end of the world but you have to build trust up between you and you agree the boundaries for you both regardless of what others think

quoteunquote Sun 10-Feb-13 15:59:50

When tesco were stocking pole dancing kits aimed at little girls, I wondered who wanted to train their child to do such a thing, reading this thread, there seems to explain a lot.

Who wants their daughter to entertain the next generation of inadequate men, supply and demand, I assume those on this thread who think it great will be putting their daughters in training, or who's daughters are they suggesting do it?

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/oct/25/1
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412195/Tesco-condemned-selling-pole-dancing-toy.html#axzz2K4uCQJSt
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tescos-toy-pole-dance-kit-646625

When I discovered tesco selling these I went ballistic, took them off the shelves, phoned the police, and the press, I asked the police to investigate the people involved for grooming, I think it's fucking odd to accept people training children to be sex workers.

my tescos took the off the shelves,

more sex toys aimed at children

pole dancing lessons for children

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 15:59:58

Also the burger/steak remark...wtf? Really horrible.

limitedperiodonly Sun 10-Feb-13 16:05:23

Question: am I more bored by posters who don't read the thread as I am by posters who drone on about how cool they are with their husbands having a weak lager while watching a PhD student flashing her bleached anus?

Probably the same.

Samu2 Sun 10-Feb-13 16:06:03

Personally, I would never be with a man who think going to strip clubs is entertaining and didn't have the guts to not go because he is worried about what his brother will say. After my first marriage I knew what I was and wasn't willing to put up with and found a man who shares my point of view about it all.

Garlicbollocks.. I think you meant to quote me. I don't know if children are involved here or not but if she threatens him with separation then he might just go and if it was me I would happily pack his bags if he cares more about going to a stripper than our relationship but the OP needs to decide if this is important enough for her to end the relationship over and separate her family if children are involved. I would never have married someone who thinks strippers is something fun but they obviously didn't discuss this before so now she has to decide whether the issue is big enough to leave him over if he isn't going to respect her point of view.

I never understand why woman are automatically called insecure if they have problems with their OH's going to strip clubs etc. For a start there is nothing wrong with being insecure over certain things, we all have some insecurities and I will never understand men who will go to strip clubs knowing how much it will upset their wives. If they are controlling over everything that is one thing, but going to a strip club when your wife has genuine issues with it tells me a lot about how much that person doesn't respect his wifes' feelings (same if the gender was reversed as well)

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 16:06:46

Girl, so what you are suggesting is that if you bang your drum about strippers, you can't be pissed off about DV etc?

What a stupid remark.

Samu2 Sun 10-Feb-13 16:07:48

women not woman*

chandellina Sun 10-Feb-13 16:08:50

Whether you love or hate your partner going to a strip club, or go yourself, I find it distasteful and immoral to pay another human being to give you sexual pleasure.

FreudiansSlipper Sun 10-Feb-13 16:08:53

I wonder how many men do tell their partners yes I had a dance she was close I could smell her pussy, i have had to wash of the snail trails and had the hardest hard on

And how many say

I was bored actually and all I thought of was you

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 16:09:17

Princess, can't you see it? sad

Overcoming your insecurities will not come from trying to outdo the strippers that your boyfriend has been paying for earlier on in the night. I genuinely feel sad and sorry for you. I'm not being patronising or wanting to sound like I am btw.

I suppose that my self-esteem would take a plummet if my DH started spending our cash on strippers but I wouldn't fucking remedy it by your methods.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 16:09:36

These threads always end up the same don't they?
Everyone trying to defend their own point if view.
If you find it acceptable for your partner to go and leer or possible even more then that's fine but do t make other women feel bad for not finding that acceptable.
No you can't ever stop another adult from doing what they want but maybe there is an argument for not doing something that your partner finds offensive.
country thanks wink
boney I have spoken to actual people who have been in these places. Either your argument is that it's not true or not the minority, which is it?
Thinking about it as well when we have the races here (cheltenham) dh says there are lots of arrests from these clubs for breaching the laws.
They actually send out undercover police (which is another thread really)
The offences range from no lower underwear to soliciting and lewd behaviour.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 16:12:20

Obviously I wasn't suggesting that. It was stated that it was the saddest thread she had read in a long, long time. Now that was a stupid remark.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 16:12:36

It just shows what a number the sex industry has done on us all, men included.

The fact that most men have no strong opinions about strip clubs and it's just a given that one will be part of a stag do, is the most depressing thing of all.
Lequeen, will your H still be propping up the sex industry bar in these places when your two little girls are the same age as the strippers in them?

FreudiansSlipper Sun 10-Feb-13 16:16:53

I agree so many have bought into its just a bit of harmless fun

we have lots of sex workers that come to the dv centre I worked in(runs support for women in the sex industry) there is nothing fun or empowering or innocent about it all it is vile what these women have had to deal with

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 16:23:45

"It just shows what a number the sex industry has done on us all, men included"

I agree with this one million times.

Men have stitched this up so that we are turning on each other. Other women are calling other women uptight/prudes/battleaxes/insecure/jealous because these other women are sad that their men are paying to slime over other women.

It's the fucking Nuts/FHM culture that's to blame, too.

You're the height of cool if you pay for your boyfriend to have a lapdance but you're an insecure harpie if you dare object to it. And this is OTHER. WOMEN. Aren't we supposed to be united on this at least? That objectifying largely vulnerable women is shit, that paying for it is shit, and doing it to the detriment of your relationship is shit? If they've managed to get us to disagree on THIS, they've done a fine fucking job on us.

limitedperiodonly Sun 10-Feb-13 16:24:46

Can I just say I've never felt the need to give or receive foot rub?

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 16:25:00

GON - calling my posts stupid is a neat way of detracting from the point I was trying to make which, coincidentally, is very different to yours. Perhaps I was guilty of hyperbole but it did genuinely upset me to read a post like that.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 16:25:34

And for the record, I am NOT insecure. It is because I am not insecure that I would tell my DH to fuck right off if he entertained getting his rocks off at a LDC. I expect better from the man I chose to marry and have children with. If he doesn't deliver on these basic principles, he knows how to look up divorce lawyer in the Yellow Pages.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 16:26:53

marmalade I agree with everything in your last post.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 16:27:39

And the one before that smile

limitedperiodonly Sun 10-Feb-13 16:29:37

And that I would find it quite baffling to suggest that a foot rub was as important to my happiness and mental well being as opposed to other things like having a bloke who didn't stare blank-eyed and slack-jawed at other women's bodies?

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 16:32:30

wink kitten

Precisely, Limited.

DH gives me footrubs but not as payment for trying to outdo the strippers he'd been fapping over earlier in the night. He does it just because we do nice things for each other.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 16:34:46

It is because I am not insecure that I would tell my DH to fuck right off if he entertained getting his rocks off at a LDC.

This. Exactly!

FamiliesShareGerms Sun 10-Feb-13 16:38:41

This is simple for me: DH would not / does not go to stag does, Xmas parties etc where it is known that there will be strippers, topless waitresses etc. This is a clear red line for me, he knows this and respects it. If the party turns into a "let's all go to Stringfellows", he either comes home or goes for a pint or two in a pub instead (there's usually at least one other guy who doesn't want to go either).

I know he went to strip bars before he met me (eg university sports tours), bit that's in the past. I did things at university that I wouldn't do now.

I know other friends are completely relaxed about their DH/ DP going to strip joints; I know more who don't like it but their DH / DP go anyway. I think the latter group have more of a problem in their relationship than those who are genuinely OK with their other half using the sex industry as part of their leisure activities.

OP, YANBU

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 16:42:56

I too like a foot rub but don't earn it either I just plonk my foot in his Lap grin
I don't think any woman seriously believes that their partner will have an affair with a stripper.
The issue isn't trust it's about not wanting your partner and children's father to be ogling naked women and paying out money for the privilege. It's about what you find acceptable.
Are those of you who don't object equally as happy if you are out together and he is leering at other women?
As for insecurity well many woman are extremely I secure these days and that is a lot to do with unrealistic portrayal of women's bodies of which the sex industry is part of.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 16:46:27

ledkr

My arguement is that your evidence in this case is no better than anyone elses.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 16:56:07

Well it's better than your boney because its come from real people and my husband whom weirdly I trust despite not wishing him to go to lap dancing clubs.
Your assumptions are from where? Your head.
These clubs aren't all styishy decorated string fellow esq places many if them are covers for other services and no I don't one hundred percent know that because I've seen it with my eyes but have heard or read about it just one a lot if things we base our opinions on.
I've never actually seen animals used for vivisection but I try not to use product tested on animals and so on.

limitedperiodonly Sun 10-Feb-13 17:03:49

Yes marmelade

These threads are always depressing familiar.

The OP doesn't like stripping and lying, which is expensive and damaging to self-esteem at the very least. I don't know why people don't say that. It's true.

Yet loads of posters bend over backwards to say how cool they are and how frigid/controlling/insecure the OP is for objecting.

If she didn't like excessive time and money and subterfuge spent on historical re-enactment games posters would have no problem saying LTB/dweeb.

I wouldn't, actually. I'd advise her to try to tell him to rein it in. But I wouldn't hold out that much hope because spending ages dressing up in a feathered hat is just as much as an unreal obsession as staring slack-jawed at some stranger's fanny while your real-life wife is waiting at home for her husband to realise that and come home.

WilsonFrickett Sun 10-Feb-13 17:08:39

"It just shows what a number the sex industry has done on us all, men included"

This. Sigh.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 17:13:31

Yes, you are right Kitten i shouldn't have called your post stupid. You obviously feel very strongly about it and I don't. Apologies there.

limitedperiodonly Sun 10-Feb-13 17:20:49

And YY wilson

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 17:28:51

Back to the OP (will she ever come back?) It's insecure women who have difficulty creating boundaries and deal breakers within relationships, secure women with high self esteem have no problem asserting themselves. Sometimes, a partner's "permission" is needed for particular things in a long term relationship, large purchases / a seperate holiday etc. there are plenty of things that require a partner's approval in a healthy and equal relationship, paying for sexual services would fall into that category, surely?

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 17:44:40

Yes the sex industry is a vivid example of cultural brainwashing, but I think capitalist patriarchical societies have always relied on the oppressed turning on eachother, as a means of keeping it going. It also relies on persuasive propaganda e.g. people who are opposed to the sex industry are insecure control freaks who don't like sex; it's okay to lie to a woman if she'd be angry or upset about the truth; all sex clubs are heavily regulated all over the world; despite some prostitutes being called escorts, semi-naked dancers are always dancers and semi-naked waitresses are always waitresses. The women who prop up these myths in order to maintain relationships with men who use the sex industry, or their own privilege - are powerful allies to those who want capitalism and patriarchy to continue unopposed.

jellybeannie Sun 10-Feb-13 17:49:55

A question to those women that are fine about their husband/partner going to these places. Don't you mind that he is most probably getting turned on by another woman? I accept maybe not all, but I'm sure a good percentage of those men that are 'bored' are anything but. It is human nature, we are programmed to look around and want what we don't have. Is this not playing with fire then? I accept it is highly unlikely that he would cheat on you with a stripper, I'm not suggesting that.

Most of our partners are good, honest men. BUT good people do make mistakes and I can't help but think that going to these places brings out the animalistic nature that most men will kick to the back of their head when they get married. Is it not a slippery slope then to other things?

This is one of the reasons I don't want DH to go to these places. He has never been, has never been invited to and would automatically say no because he knows how I feel. Is he curious? I'm sure. Would he get turned on? Possibly, probably, that's what they are there for.

If he thinks I am beautiful and sexy, everything he could possibly want then why introduce doubt into his mind?

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 17:51:32

When last spotted Bela, the OP appeared to have been bludgeoned into agreeing that she was being unfair to this husband who lied to her and who was planning to go on yet another sex-industry stag party where an apartment was being booked 'for people who lived far away'......

I hope she read on.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 17:51:54

ledkr
"Well it's better than your boney because its come from real people and my husband whom weirdly I trust despite not wishing him to go to lap dancing clubs.
Your assumptions are from where? Your head."

how many people on here know you or your husband?
I could equally say that your DH's experiences are from your head.
It could be that you are infact a 50 yr old man.

On here we are all anonimous and whether you like it or not everyone's experiences are equal and everyone's evidence is equal.

annodotal is defined as "Not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research."

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 18:00:17

Two things.

1. Those of you who are happy for people to use LDCs and strippers, do you care at all about the women offering these services, and the conditions they work in?

2. Would you be happy for your daughters to do the same work?

Trazzletoes Sun 10-Feb-13 18:00:47

FOR. FUCK'S. SAKE.

WILL YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT WOMEN WHO DON'T CARE IF THEIR OH GOES TO A STRIP CLUB TRYING TO BE COOL.

WE ARE NOT TRYING TO BE FUCKING COOL.

WE HONESTLY DON'T CARE!

For the hundredth time.

<and breathe>

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 18:03:02

If you don't care that's worse.

You're all so cringey that it hurts, to be perfectly fucking honest.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 18:07:43

What is this 'OH' thing? Other Halves?

Last time I looked, I was a whole person wink

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 18:08:03

TrazzleToes people are entitled to their opinion. They'll probably take yours more seriously if you explain yourself calmly rather than stamping your feet like a toddler and caps-typing.

When you do that, it sort of tends to make you look like you don't really have an argument.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 18:08:19

I reckon empirical, verified studies of sex industry workers can probably be relied on to tell us that trafficking is now a massive problem, dancers are often coerced into providing extras by their management and strong efforts are made by managements to get dancers addicted to drugs which will intensify their need to make money. The police have confirmed that the rates of sexual assault and rape go up after a lapdancing club has opened in a district.

Much better than anecdotes. You won't find many real-world, verified studies to show that strippers are all art students, doing a bit of no-contact showing off for fun and pin money.

For the record: If I got into a relationship with a man who used sex industry products & services quite ignorantly innocently, I would share this information and expect him to give it up pronto. That isn't going to happen at my age - unless I unexpectedly have an affair with a 20-year-old, heh - but it's what I should have done when younger. I'd advise any younger woman to do the same now.

quoteunquote Sun 10-Feb-13 18:08:21

Trazzletoes do you have daughters?

Would you care if they strip for a living?

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 18:08:28

Ok then boney why discuss anything on mumsnet then because we are all mostly anonymous so any opinions would be anecdotal in fact this discussion should only be taking place if it involved people who had been to strip or lap dancing clubs regularly as most if us are discussing it but haven't been there.
Of course as you point out my opinions are second hand and told to me by a third party but your disbelief of what I said is based purely on your opinion nothing more.
The arrests in cheltenham every march are not anecdotal btw so feel free to check up on that if you wish to.
I'm not quite sure how we got here but as I said I have reason to believe that more than a bit if harmless fun goes on in some of these clubs and you don't agree. So that's it really.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 18:11:02

Trazzletoes- could you answer my questions, please? They aren't about what your husband does- they are about your attitudes to sex workers.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 18:18:53

garlic funnily enough my dh was largely on the fence about it all. He'd never been to one but only because it hadn't particularly interested him.
Fast forward six years and two dds and he stil doesn't have strong opinions but would never go because he knows that I do and he admits he wouldn't want his dds to do it so feels that is another reason he wouldn't go. He was asked on a stag when dd would be about 5weeks old. He declined because he felt he didn't want to be away when she was so little. The pressure he was under from his mates to go was incredible, the stag do seems to bring out the make silverback in human males.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 10-Feb-13 18:21:36

ledkr

My point isn't that we shouldn't discuss things but that everyone's experiences are as valid as everyone else's (whether we agree with them or not).

ledkr + Garlic
My stance on this is that objectification of either sex is a bad thing.
and that the empirical data shows this.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 18:22:33

God, I am so glad that my DH isn't one of these weak-willed man-children that so many of you seem lumbered with.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 18:24:02

Yes trazzketoes you seem ahem........happy with your choices and bit at all defensive hmm

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 18:24:56

boney well we agree on that at least wink

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 18:27:05

oh please Marmalade tell us about your wonderful husband......

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 18:28:01

He's a real, proper grown-up. One that doesn't really like objectifying women, much less paying for it.

That's a start.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 18:34:02

I too am amazed that all these grown up women put up with such appalling sounding men. I actually think that deep down these men are frightened of women which is why they seek out ones who are not strong willed enough to call them on their poor behaviour. And might explain why they like to look at semi clad women from afar and fantasise as these inaccessible women will never expect anything of them in a sexual way.

limitedperiodonly Sun 10-Feb-13 18:37:22

Be cool Trazzletoes grin

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 18:41:22

I agree, countrykitten.

They're inadequate men and a woman with a fully-formed sense of worth and good self-esteem wouldn't tolerate their juvenile behaviour. So they hone in on weak women.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 18:45:26

Mine's a real, proper grown up who views women as equals too Marmalade, I wouldn't have been married to him for almost 30 years if he wasn't.
He was at 18 and in the military ( where there was/is real male peer pressure and misogyny) and he is now, a few years ago he refused to take prospective customers into a strip club , he doesn't need me to stand behind him informing him of the harms of the sex industry, his own feelings of it being exploitative and disrespectful were there long before it ever being on my radar .
I would hate to be married to a sheep.

Eebahgum Sun 10-Feb-13 18:52:52

Although I suspect she's run away & is never coming back after some of the responses she got, I just wanted to give princess a quick high five. It takes a lot of guts for us women with less than perfect bodies to do that kind of thing for our partners. Just because you disagree with her opinions about strip clubs doesn't mean you need to question her relationship (which sounds pretty healthy & solid imo). X

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 18:53:17

Oh God, me too Bela.

A man who bows to the pressure of his mates is pretty unattractive. Shows a real lack of character.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 18:56:35

Hmmm, no-one is questioning Princess stripping for her DP, that's her own business. But she said that she stripped for him after he'd been to a LDC. To compete with the strippers he'd been leering at earlier. Then because she'd done that for him, unpaid, he did stuff for her that any normal partner in a normal relationship would do.

I think that Princess needs to set the bar higher for her relationships if she has to strip for her bloke to get "the princess treatment".

Her self-esteem has nothing to do with her body and everything to do with the fact that her boyfriend pays to see tits that don't belong to her.
<shudder>

Eebahgum Sun 10-Feb-13 19:13:56

That's your assumption - I'm clearly not in a position to say you're wrong but there is every possibility that she has had self esteem issues all if her life, from long before she met her husband. And I love the idea that what she got afterwards was what a normal partner would do in a normal relationship. Not sure I know any women who regularly get foot rubs from their husbands. I guess the men up here must be less thoughtful/romantic than the average husband. X

Ashoething Sun 10-Feb-13 19:20:57

Again I ask if it so "normal" for people to go to places where stangers strip then why arent hordes of women going off on these wild booze/stripper weekends? No women get to go to cocktail nights or spa weekendshmm

My not wanting my dh to go to these places is fuck all to do with not trusting him. Yes its true that if he wanted to cheat he could easily do it when out drinking/clubbing. Its about the fact that people in this day and age still think its acceptable for MEN-and lets be honest it is in that vast majority men-to be able to go and essentially have stimulated sex with a complete stranger and also pay for the privalege! But its ok because its their "right" as menhmm

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 19:24:55

I've not ran away anywhere, just been off enjoying a foot rub ; p
H didn't even get a dance btw, he was there for his brothers stag, he went paint balling for his stag, pretty sure no titties there. My point was to the OP that whilst I would never recommend doing anything that made them uncomfortable, from my personal experience sharing the reasons why I was insecure allowed me to really open up both emotionally and sexually and it's been wonderful for our relationship but apparently I'm holding up the whole female revolution for not banning him from going in the 1st place. I don't own him, he isn't a possession nor am I a piece of meat but I am his hot sexy wife and il be dammed if anyone wants me to keep my dressing gown on to please the feminists.

Ashoething Sun 10-Feb-13 19:28:51

So you would be happy for your dh to go to a club and have stimulated sex with a pretty girl on the dance floor then princess? because thats what it amounts too. Or is it only ok when its on a stag night because that a mans right?

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 19:31:32

But you referred to yourself as a piece of steak did you not princess? Make your obviously very confused mind up.

whathellcall Sun 10-Feb-13 19:35:13

Jesus wept. Depressing reading at the start of this thread. Agree with Marmalade et al. Scary number of women on here who seem to think it is in any way normal to accept your partner paying for sexual favours, and to label a woman as controlling and insecure if she doesn't shock.

Eebahgum Sun 10-Feb-13 19:37:40

Glad you're back princess & hope you enjoyed your foot rub. As far as I'm aware, your comments about him not wanting beef burgers when he has steak at home are a fairly common saying. Maybe some of the other posters haven't heard it before? It's really not the same as saying "my husband thinks I'm a piece of meat". X

WilsonFrickett Sun 10-Feb-13 19:39:33

To detour slightly (what they hey, right?) I am completely shock that more than one poster has mentioned visiting strippers and LDC's in the context of business deals/supplier treats, that sort of thing. I honestly, genuinely didn't believe that happened apart from in the Fail's more frothing exposes of city traders. I am completely gobsmacked this is still seen as an acceptable business practice.

As you were.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 19:43:34

Princess, I like your post just now. You're taking about a little journey you've made in self-discovery and a healthy development in communication between you & your DH. The trigger for this happened to be a visit to a strip club. But it could easily have been something else, because that's where your relationship and your self-image were at just then smile

The nature of the trigger doesn't have to inform your views about the sex industry at all. You could still take on board all the reasoned, informed posts here and it won't change the good developments in your relationship.

I'm saying your new self-confidence and improved relationship haven't happened because of the strip club, iyswim? You don't owe it anything! You did all that by yourself.

PrincessUnderpaid Sun 10-Feb-13 19:44:59

My husband received a lap dance from me not a stripper. He went to a club and heaven forbid might have seen some tits and ass whilst his brother got a lapdance. The point is I'm secure enough in my marriage that we satisfy each other. Ashoething - he doesn't drink and he hates nightclubs so I don't concern myself but if he did go out, he would hopefully behave like the gentleman I know him to be. Stag Dos and Hen Dos might not be to everyone's taste but its only a bit of fun and its supposed to be mortifying not sexy.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 19:46:15

YY, Eebahgum, I've been trying not to comment on that and hoping it'd go away! It's a stupid saying, but a common one. Some film star (Richard Burton??) said it in the sixties and it caught the public imagination ... despite the later discovery that he had, in fact, cheated.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 19:46:48

The burger/steak analogy is actually very telling. Made up by men who can only compare women to cuts of meat.

Yes it has been absorbed into common parlance as a turn of phrase but it's subconscious meaning is depressing.

FreudiansSlipper Sun 10-Feb-13 19:47:58

the burger out steak at home is not said to men is it hmm

In other words lucky you I managed to keep my cock in my trousers but it could have easily slipped out but I remembered I have it good at home now reward me for being such a good boy

FreudiansSlipper Sun 10-Feb-13 19:51:29

no lap dancing is not abut mortifying someone it is about sexually exciting your client, now who else sexually excites their clients

there are other ways to have fun and if you want to include embarrassing the stag/hen it does not need to be in a sexual way

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 19:53:31

Quite telling that someone who thinks its ok for a partner to visit a Ldc is also go smacked that some men might give their wife a foot rub. My dh does that for me every night and tickles my back on demand. Must normal couples are touchy and tactile with each other which is possibly why they don't feel the urge to visit sex establishments.
*A shoe thing*I've asked that its one if many unanswered questions
I maybe wrong but there is every possibility that she has had self esteem issues all if her life, from long before she met her husband
Yes she may and what a lovely job her husband did to reassure her hmm

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 19:53:53

Wilson - I felt under considerable pressure to provide the same entertainment as many of my male colleagues. As my confidence increased I realised I could just as successfully take a bunch of men for a boozy dinner instead, so that's what I normally did. But - and it's a big 'but', more for the FWR board than AIBU - after I'd stopped initiating visits to strip clubs, the men in the office stopped including me on theirs. This meant I missed out on quite a bit of internal networking. There could have been other reasons for this; I fell foul of office politics in the end anyway. But it might, also, have been a direct consequence of my giving up 'honorary bloke' status.

Eebahgum Sun 10-Feb-13 19:57:51

I think you're reading far too much into the burger/steak analogy. I guess burgers & steaks are things a lot of men like. I think it's completely irrelevant & coincidental that they are meat. I certainly don't think it means 'lucky you that my cock didn't slip out'. X

Ashoething Sun 10-Feb-13 19:58:39

Ebahgum-please stop putting x on the end of your posts-this is not netmums you knowgrin

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 20:00:56

RE the steak/burger thing - it is a totally VILE thing to say even if it is in common use.

But the worst thing is to hear a woman use it about themselves - hey look we don't need men to refer to us as slabs of meat, no we're all emancipated and can do that all by ourselves. We should be aiming higher.

WilsonFrickett Sun 10-Feb-13 20:01:31

garlic You're right, probably best saved for FWR but then a poster above did give 'the feminists' a ticking off for focusing on objectifying women as a 'real' feminist issue. Of course there could be no direct link between you choosing not to play along with objectifying women and your subsequent falling foul of office politics, could there???? ::sarcastic emoticon::

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 20:02:29

And ebahgum - what planet are you on if you really don't think the meat thing is relevant?

Eebahgum Sun 10-Feb-13 20:03:16

ledkr he tickles your back on demand? Wow - sounds like you've got him right where you want him there. My dp only does that kind of thing when he actually wants to, but fortunately he's tactile enough for me to not need to demand physical contact from him. X

FreudiansSlipper Sun 10-Feb-13 20:04:15

the point I am making is why would anyone even need to say that. Of course I would not expect a partner of mine to go to a strip club because he would not want to not because he has better at home but because he respects women and our relationship who is more attractive or he finds me more attractive does not come into it

Eebahgum Sun 10-Feb-13 20:04:54

I'm sorry my x offended you ashoething.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 20:26:17

Eebahgum, I think that was more of a friendly heads-up than anything smile

FS - because he respects women and our relationship [it's not about] who is more attractive

YY. There seems to be a widespread - unspoken? - acceptance that women are a smorgasbord of carnal delights, from which any man may take his pick if he can get access. Hence the 'insecurity' of worrying that strippers are fitter/prettier/younger/sexier than oneself: If your man's got a ticket to the buffet and you're not the BEST sandwich he might take one of the others! Shock, horror, fear!

It's really a pretty crap way to see yourself, and insulting to men as well. Surely you'd expect your partner to be attracted to other women quite often? And expect him not to do anything about that, because he respects his relationship with you? So why the bloody hell would he pay to have other women stick their fanjos in his face?

Doesn't make sense, unless you really do think all men sue women, and women must compete to be used confused

BTW, the strippers ARE fitter/prettier/younger/sexier. It's in their job description.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 20:27:19

unless you think all men use women, that would be, not 'sue' grin

Eebahgum Sun 10-Feb-13 20:30:44

A friendly heads up? That this website is not for people who sign off their messages with x but there is another one I can use where it is more socially acceptable? Doesn't sound that friendly to me.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 20:34:49

Okay.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 20:37:23

Eba- well yes I guess I have. Are you jealous then?

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 20:38:52

Still not had an answer or two!

"Two things.

1. Those of you who are happy for people to use LDCs and strippers, do you care at all about the women offering these services, and the conditions they work in?

2. Would you be happy for your daughters to do the same work?"

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 20:42:30

And "are you equally happy if a woman comes onto him strips off and sticks her tits in his face and makes him have a hard on?

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 20:43:03

I mean of the non stripper variety if course.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 20:45:54

You won't get an answer, seeker. To uncomfortable to answer, I think.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 20:48:18

TBH You sound more like a criminal interrogater than his wife. I couldn't be with someone that controlling.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 20:52:41

And back to square one.

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 20:57:19

My partner wants to go to a brothel to get a hand job for his stag do. AIBU to not want him to?

Er, bit controlling there, OP. It's a stag do FFS. It's not like he's going to be shagging her, he's just getting a hand job. I don't care if my husband gets a hand job off a prostitute, what difference does it make? He's still going to come home to me.

You know, or whatever. Hand job, lap dance, blow job, shag. Everyone has their limits. Personally I just don't want my partner to have anything to do with the sex industry.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 20:59:53

Bit of a difference between strippers and prostitutes for a start MT. No sexual contact for a start.

FitzgeraldProtagonist Sun 10-Feb-13 21:02:31

I am so unattractive to strippers it isn't even funny. The ones at various he s I have been to are without doubt, simple. Give me a searing intellect, witty riposte and respect any day of the week.

For same reason wouldn't give two fucks about bf seeing a stripper at a stag thing. Because I am sooooo a better option ;)

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 21:02:48

Isn't there dizzy? How do you know that? Can I invite you to read the thread?

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 21:04:39

What's the difference then? Explain it to me.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 21:08:20

Well a stripper takes her clothes off and there is no contact.

Lap dancing is a little different. I can understand why some might not like that anymore than if a random woman wandered into your living room right now and started grinding against your OH.

Prostitution involves paying a woman for sex or sexual activities such as hand jobs or oral sex.

Did you not know this? It's really not hard to understand.

Anyway i wasn't commenting on the OPs dislike of these things, I was commenting on her 'interrogation skills' as she put it. It is creepy and controlling.

If a man came on here and revealed he extensively checked out his girlfriends activities on a night out you'd all be screaming leave the bastard and abuse abuse.

ledkr Sun 10-Feb-13 21:11:18

Bored now I'm off to bed night all.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 21:11:35

Oh, and the topless waitress thing - I actually work with a company who also provides these services. They are often used at parties such as the OP describes. There are strict rules. There is NO sexual contact. The girls aren't allowed to drink, they have to even be careful what they say to the clients, They are not allowed sexual contact etc, Not even a kiss.

hamdangle Sun 10-Feb-13 21:13:05

I just don't believe that anyone would be happy for their DP to go to a LDC. Women just say that because their partners are going to go anyway and they are scared of looking like they are prudish and controlling. If you we're really happy and secure in your relationship you would feel able to say if you didn't want your other half to do something that made you feel uncomfortable and if your DP really respected you they wouldn't want a stranger to rub their foo all over them! And they pay for it!!!

My DH has never been to one and never would and has come home early from a stag because the others did. In fact we once went to the theatre and one of the actors suddenly whacked her waps out and waggled them round and he got really embarrassed. Afterwards he said that he felt really odd about it because he seen another woman's ta tas in real life and it felt really wrong.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 21:15:41

Ledkr. That makes the most sense of any post tonight. I can't believe this thread is still going.
Night all.

GirlOutNumbered Sun 10-Feb-13 21:16:45

Sorry, I just have to comment on ham. Your husband calls them ta tas?

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 21:22:32

'ta tas'? Bloody hell. I am SO glad that I am with the man I am with. There are some strange ones out there.

G'night.

hamdangle Sun 10-Feb-13 21:27:47

Ha. No that's me. DH sticks predictably with boobs or boobies. I have a friend who calls them puppies but that brings up disturbing images for me so I use tats or ta tas.

badinage Sun 10-Feb-13 21:28:26

Oh, and the topless waitress thing - I actually work with a company who also provides these services.

You can't say that about the country the OP lives in and where those topless waitresses were booked. Because we don't know which country she lives in, just that it's not the UK. In many countries those waitresses are prostitutes. Hell, even in the UK where it's illegal to be a pimp, a lot of 'agencies' have to go to a lot of trouble to produce Rules and Procedures which nobody 'in the know' follows in practice, as long as the money is right.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 10-Feb-13 21:29:14

I'll answer you seeker, but I have to get my disclaimer in first. I'm not 'happy' about DH using strippers and lapdancers and if it was part of his regular schedule then it would be a deal breaker but I am coming from this from the pov of occasionally, at a stag party, maybe ten times over the course of a lifetime (he's actually been twice and most of his friends are married now) and a 'reputable' club and def not topless waitresses in a private apartment and for some reason 'abroad' would be a deal breaker, prague for instance. I have a vague and unfounded idea that strippers (as opposed to prostitutes) will suffer more exploitation in some other countries than they do here. Anyway 'happy' isn't the right word, more apathetic.

1.Those of you who are happy for people to use LDCs and strippers, do you care at all about the women offering these services, and the conditions they work in?

Yes, I do care but obviously I don't care enough. I think its akin to never buying non fairtrade coffee or chocolate when I do my grocery shopping but today in a really awful chain pub I had a coffee and all my dcs had chocolate cake. I know it won't have been fairtrade and someone was exploited because I wanted coffee the same way that I know when dh has been to a strip club then the women are exploited but I push it to the back of my mind and attempt to justify it in the "Oh, it's not like its all the time" way. I am aware that this is a hideous attitude. There are a lot of things I try not to think to hard about. Slaughterhouses for example, and the factory conditions where my clothes are made and how much rainforest it takes to make a quarter pounder and the living conditions of the man who mined the diamond for the engagement ring that I don't even wear.

2. Would you be happy for your daughters to do the same work?"

No and I would try everything to talk them out of it. My cousin did it for about 6 months so I would probably enlist her to help me out. She went into it with a 'all you have to do is get your tits out and you can make in a night what you make in a month working at tesco' attitude which I think is quite common towards the 'not very exploited' end of the spectrum.

hamdangle Sun 10-Feb-13 21:34:19

I just don't understand why you would be with someone that was happy to do something that you weren't, as you say, 'happy' with. Surely the whole point of being in a relationship is that you are there to make each other feel happy and secure!

hamdangle Sun 10-Feb-13 21:35:43

Oh and My cousin went into it with the same attitude. She's now a crack addict.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 10-Feb-13 21:49:07

The steak at home/burger away thing was said by Paul Newman ( explaining why he stayed faithful to her) about his wife Joanne Woodward and she hated it, fwiw.

It's hard to explain just how depressing the "being treated like a princess" statement is , to me, it's absolutely bog-standard loving behaviour that happens day in, day out in a good and respectful relationship, nothing special in being treated like a valued human being with physical and emotional needs - it's exactly how it should be.

My dad used to say the Steak/burger thing to my mum all the time. He cheated on her for 20 years. I hate that phrase.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 10-Feb-13 21:55:42

I think when you are in a LTR with another person there are a myriad of things that you will both do that the other person is unhappy with to a greater or lesser extent. The point is going to a strip club on a stag night doesn't make me feel unhappy or insecure, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable and guilty but not enough to LTB over any more than I would expect him to leave me if he found out that I had treated our children by buying them chocolate that someone else's children missed out on a childhood and an education to farm. The line is drawn in different places on different issues for different people. My line on this is somewhere beyond going to a strip club very occasionally on a stag night and before going to a strip club regularly for ordinary entertainment and having a lap dance for sexual gratification. I'm not saying that that is where everyones line should be but I just can't get worked up about it enough to even have an argument, let alone end the relationship. On the other hand, smoking is a deal breaker for me because I won't live with a smoker. This has got me the 'you sound like a control freak' treatment on here before as, to some people, it is a ridiculous thing to get worked up about.

DrinkFeckArseGirls Sun 10-Feb-13 22:05:19

I've no idea why people pick in the OP's interrogation approachhmm. It doesn't mean that she's controlling, it means he's hiding something and lo and behold, he is and it is at best unsavoury. He wasn't forthcoming with the info, she felt something was off so pursued that. Why should she be kept in the dark? You think it's alright for one partner to be hiding things from another?

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 22:08:09

Dizzy yes, I understand what a prostitute is. That wasn't my question and there's really no need to be arsey. It's a discussion.

It's a false line, really. It's ok to pay a woman to take her clothes off, grind against you and push her vulva into your partner's face, but it's not ok to pay a woman to toss him off. To me it's the same. To you it's not.

Whatever the political implications are, and to me they're important but understand they're not to everyone, it all comes down to individual relationships and what you will and won't accept. It makes no sense to try to convince someone that it is ok for their partner to go to a strip club because for some people it just isn't ok.

Surely there are things that are deal breakers for you as well that to me would be no big deal.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:20:02

You can't say that about the country the OP lives in and where those topless waitresses were booked. Because we don't know which country she lives in, just that it's not the UK. In many countries those waitresses are prostitutes. Hell, even in the UK where it's illegal to be a pimp, a lot of 'agencies' have to go to a lot of trouble to produce Rules and Procedures which nobody 'in the know' follows in practice, as long as the money is right.

Ok, TBF I Was speaking generally, and had forgot about the not in the UK thing by that point. (Typing here inbetween sorting my PC out, Sorry!). But the conversation does seem to involve aspects of the UK girls too.

1.Those of you who are happy for people to use LDCs and strippers, do you care at all about the women offering these services, and the conditions they work in?

Yes, And the ones i know of are perfectly happy. There are many areas and establishments which have less than satisfactory working conditions. This is not limited to LDCs, SCs etc.

It's a false line, really. It's ok to pay a woman to take her clothes off, grind against you and push her vulva into your partner's face, but it's not ok to pay a woman to toss him off. To me it's the same. To you it's not.

I didn't mean to come across as arsey, Sorry.

It's not a false line. It's about what you're comfortable with. That's all. If you say "I don't feel comfortable with you going to a lap dancing club" and he lies/goes anyway that is disrespecting you as his partner, no matter whether it's watching a woman strip off, grinding against you or giving you a handjob.

FWIW, And i'm only mentioning this as it appears i was unclear - I would be as annoyed about the grinding etc as i would a handjob. It is sexual contact. I only bought it up to point out the difference between a strip club and a lap dancing club. There are many differences between different establishments.

I wasn't trying to convince anyone else it's ok. I was commenting on the 'interrogation' part as i feel that is controlling and wrong. I do have a problem with misconceptions about the women that work there though.

Personally a strip club i would have no problem with. I have been to more strip clubs than my other half has.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 22:23:10

Jeez, the comparison of going to a LCD occasionally and having a non Fair trade coffee occasionally is grim...

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:23:34

Also, In the iindustries i've worked in that involve men on nights out - The ones that hit on girls like this are always snogging some randoms face off by the end of the night. So i really don't understand a lot of the flack strippers and lap dancers get. They're usually the last girls you need to be worrying about.

The blokes who have no interest in one usually have no interest in the other and sit in the corner like a frightened puppy.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 22:33:07

Oh no. It isn't the strippers we are giving stick to. It's the men that are paying for it.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 22:33:39

Dizzy zebra-so you would be delighted for your daughter to decide that stripping was the career for her? I notice ou dodged that question,,,,,

Thank you, Ithinkofhappy- you're the first one to address the questions I asked- it does sound as if you need to think/ question a bit more....

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:37:31

Seeker - Not particularly. I don't think i ever said that and i don't think it's relevant. There are a few careers i hope she doesn't choose, for a variety of reasons. I hope she doesn't want to work with horses either, or dogs.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:38:23

I would be far more disappointed if my son were to pay for it though, Than if my daughter were to choose to provide it.

BegoniaBampot Sun 10-Feb-13 22:39:56

well if ya'll so ok about your daughters being strippers, lap dancers or topless waitresses then fine. if not then you are hypocrits, fine.

this thread is depressing but at least ya'll are so cool. think about the culture that makes this all fine.

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 22:42:11

Is that because the horses or dogs will sexually exploit her and chip away at her self worth, all in the name of sexual gratification of men?

Thought not...

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:43:05

What's hypocritical about it?
I wouldn't be thrilled about my daughter doing it because it's a dead end career. You're not going to get much out of it in the long run. The same as many other careers people choose to do. Not because i see anything wrong with taking your clothes off for a living.

I have worked with horses, i've owned them, i've taught riding. I hope she doesn't do those things either because for the majority, You're just cleaning shit and helping other people succeed for the most of it.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:43:38

Marmalade - That's a pretty big generalisation there. Do you know for a fact every single woman feels that way?

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 22:44:24

I don't get why you think it's fine for you to go to a lap dancing club but you'd be disappointed if your son went to one. Or if your daughter worked in one.

That to me shows that you're not actually fine with it, that you don't see stripping as any sort of respectable career.

And that's my problem with it. People simultaneously consume it while disrespecting the women that do it.

Fucking grim.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:45:20

Mechanical - I didn't say if he went to one. I said if he paid for it.

seeker Sun 10-Feb-13 22:45:31

"Seeker - Not particularly. I don't think i ever said that and i don't think it's relevant. There are a few careers i hope she doesn't choose, for a variety of reasons. I hope she doesn't want to work with horses either, or dogs."

Of course it's relevant. If it's a perfectly OK career choice for someone else's daughter, why not for yours?

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 22:47:03

No I'm sure they don't. I'm sure they're just thinking of the reddies getting stuffed into their thongs and how they're going to pay off their university fees off by the end of the week....

FreudiansSlipper Sun 10-Feb-13 22:47:07

a woman may provide a service of stripping/lap dancing but it is not her decision who pays for it, that is taken out of her hands unless she decides to only strip/dance for a select few so really where is the power

I would be very very disappointed if ds paid for a lap dance but for a dd of mine (do not have one) To become a stripper i would be devastated not many woman walk away from the sex industry confident and happy with themselves far too many walk away with serious problems drug abuse, self loathing, mistrust of people it damages so many women

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 22:47:54

What's the difference? He pays for it, someone else pays for it, it's no odds.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:54:17

Seeker - Because it's a bit of a shit job. Same as a lot. I wouldn't be thrilled if she were stacking shelves in tesco.

Marmalade - I am going to suggest you go out and learn a little about certain industries before you make ridiculous comments about what does and does not happen within them. The thong comment is particularly entertaining. I think you've been watching one too many movies.

The companies i work for hire girls for various things. Personally, I don't dance, because i can't dance. I sell things - Alcohol etc.

Pretty much all of it preys on, mostly male, stupidity and the fact that there are a large portion of men who will do anything for a pretty face and a nice body.

The girls i work with who dance as well are there because they want to. They're not forced, The working conditions are great - It's pretty much our choice. If i go to a venue and spend half of it outside smoking i'm not going to get in trouble. I'm just not going to make as much money. No ones going to do anything about it.

They don't offer 'extras' on the job and if they did they would be promptly sacked and our contracts prevent us working in the same area of work for 3 months after it's terminated, Which no one wants. It's simply not worth risking - You're losing about 10 times more in those 3 months than you'd be getting for an 'extra'.

And if they don't want to do something for someone and someone tries to force them, that person would promptly be removed. Most girls i know wouldn't do anything they're not comfortable with for the sake of a few quid - The same as most of us here wouldn't shag our boss for a promotion.

There are dodgy areas of the industry - Obviously, But you cannot sit there saying these things unless you've experienced it all. And you simply haven't.

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 22:56:18

Mechanical - Because as i said, It preys on stupidity, And i hope my son is smarter than to line somebody elses pockets for a bit of a tease or 5 minutes talking to a pretty girl.

When i sell stuff my favourite customers, and the ones i usually end up stood chatting to at the end of my shift are the ones who smile at me and go 'Do i look daft?'.

I don't particularly care about other people paying for it. That's their look out.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 10-Feb-13 22:56:44

"Jeez, the comparison of going to a LCD occasionally and having a non Fair trade coffee occasionally is grim..."

Isn't it? Even though I know about all those children who are kidnapped and trafficked to be slaves in the coffee industry, doing back-breaking labour for 80 hours a week and I know that the collapse in the global coffee price has directly caused widespread starvation in coffee producing countries I am still self absorbed enough to think it doesn't matter when its convenient to me. Well, its not so much that I think it doesn't matter, its that I choose to push it to the back of my mind and it is the same type of guilt that I feel when I am not campaigning against exploitation in the sex industry.

I know that in terms of numbers human trafficking for sexual exploitation is a bigger problem than trafficking for agricultural labour, I'm not stupid, but as I am not a user of the sex industry it's not something that I think about as much. When DH went to stringfellows on his cousin's stag night I just thought 'oh, I'm sure those women have decent working conditions, it's too high profile for anything really bad to go on.' and it is exactly the same twatty "my wants are more important than your rights" allowing me to say that that allows me to drink the coffee. I am fucking grim and I'll be the first to admit it.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 22:59:55

Anyway 'happy' isn't the right word, more apathetic.

IThink, your posts this evening struck me as gloriously honest. I kind of hope that joining in discussions like this will lead to your drawing that 'line' a lot closer to home. You sound like a woman who knows how to consider challenging issues and moderate her views accordingly.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 23:00:37

xposted!

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 10-Feb-13 23:08:05

"Thank you, Ithinkofhappy- you're the first one to address the questions I asked- it does sound as if you need to think/ question a bit more...."

I know I do but sometimes I think if I think/question any more than I already do then I will freeze up and get nothing done. I wrote to over 300 MPs about the same sex marriage bill (the same letter, I'm not mad) then I felt guilty because I didn't write to any LibDems because I thought they would all vote yes anyway and I forgot about Sarah bloody Teather. Not that I would have changed her mind but all it takes for evil to flourish and all that...

Maybe I am mad.

nailak Sun 10-Feb-13 23:08:10

dizzy are you a tequila girl?

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 23:14:31

Why haven't I gone to bed yet?? blush

It is exactly the same twatty "my wants are more important than your rights" allowing me to say that that allows me to drink the coffee.

I agree with this, and all you've said about pushing ti to the back of your mind. I, too, am grim ...

I think there's a wider issue, impinging directly on the matter of sexploitation, which is that of patriarchal power over women. And all the messiness contained within those four words. In a coffee-growing village, women will bear the brunt of the cuts along with their children. Chances are, girl children will suffer even more than boys. Throughout the world, in very nearly every circumstance, women are forced to know their inferior value compared to the men.

This is more or less why many Mumsnetters would say the matter of sexual exploitation is 'greater' than the matter of cheap coffee or cotton.

Others would say they're all symptoms of capitalism and they wouldn't be wrong either! I guess we all have to pick our battles, but I still hope you'll nudge sexual exploitation a little further up your priority list smile

DizzyZebra Sun 10-Feb-13 23:17:18

Naila - I do various things. Shots are one of them.

garlicblocks Sun 10-Feb-13 23:18:02

I wrote to over 300 MPs about the same sex marriage bill

Whoo-hoo! It worked! Now we know who to thank/blame grin

MarmaladeTwatkins Sun 10-Feb-13 23:18:06

Zebra. My post about thongs was sarcastic: an imagination of what does NOT go on in LDCs.

Thought that was fairly obvious...

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Sun 10-Feb-13 23:21:48

Yes, iirc 'only' around 60% of people trafficked for economic exploitation are female compared with something like 98% for commercial sexual exploitation and more men than women directly benefit from trafficking. Even though a significant proportion of traffickers are women then they are usually middlemen, used to gain trust. At the top of the tree sit the men.

ComposHat Sun 10-Feb-13 23:34:04

I have been to two stag dos. One included darts and dominos and the other one was a barbecue. Lap Dancing is not an inevitable part of stag dos.

I did refuse to go to one stag do where I suspected it would end up in a lap dancing place as I don't really like the idea at all. However if my partner had tried to forbid me from going it would set alarm bells ringing in my head. By all means express your opinion, but adults don't get to tell other adults what to do, especially when they have done exactly the same things themselves.

MechanicalTheatre Sun 10-Feb-13 23:34:11

"Pretty much all of it preys on, mostly male, stupidity and the fact that there are a large portion of men who will do anything for a pretty face and a nice body."

Er...so why would you be ok with your partner going to a club then?! I just don't get it! My partner isn't stupid, he wouldn't "do anything for a pretty face and a nice body".

Thingiebob Mon 11-Feb-13 01:02:11

How would the OP react/feel if she found out her partner had been looking at pornography online?

stopgap Mon 11-Feb-13 03:42:43

I'm a little taken aback that so many posters think that "topless waitresses at an apartment" isn't more than that. Really, nobody else is privy to stories of escorts at stag parties? I can't be the only one who knows tales such as:

Sex for the groom; blow job for the father of the bride (same escort).
Ping pong balls fired out of vaginas; caught by the groom and best man.
Girl-on-girl action for the benefit of a private audience.
Entire stag parties descending on Hamburg and Estonia for a long weekend, prostitutes all round.

Honestly, I'd rather my partner was destined for Stringfellow's. At least there are limitations and a clear understanding about what sort of exchange takes place between dancer and patron.

seeker Mon 11-Feb-13 07:54:37

My questions again. Interesting that I have only had two answers.

1. Those of you who are happy for people to use LDCs and strippers, do you care at all about the women offering these services, and the conditions they work in?

2. Would you be happy for your daughters to do the same work?"

BegoniaBampot Mon 11-Feb-13 08:20:48

ithinkofhappy - i agree with all your posts. very honest and thought provoking. the older i get, i push things to the back of my mind and see the world as not being so black and white. just makes life easier.

YABU

worridmum Tue 12-Feb-13 00:35:18

basically reading alot of this post apparently its fine for the OP to see a a male stripper (so objecting / sexifing men is fine) but its red flags for a man to go to a strip club Is it just me or is the hpyocristy shown here totally disgusting.

In my books if its wrong to objectify /women it should damn well be wrong to objectify men as we are actully meant to be in a equal socitey not just when it benifets women

garlicblocks Tue 12-Feb-13 01:22:21

Yes. Poor ole menz, being bullied into prostitution when all they wanted was to dance, sold out of the backs of vans to serial abusers, being told to make nice with gangs of women who verbally, physically & sexually abuse them.
hmm

Not saying any sexism or objectification is right or fine, worridmum, but you're on a hiding to nothing if you want to make out this issue is just as bad for men as for women. There are some men who're treated just as badly in similar ways, yes, and I think you'll find it's being done to them by other men. Not women.

ComposHat Tue 12-Feb-13 01:30:44

Yes. Poor ole menz, being bullied into prostitution when all they wanted was to dance, sold out of the backs of vans to serial abusers, being told to make nice with gangs of women who verbally, physically & sexually abuse them

Have you never heard of rent boys or the current care home/sex ring scandal that is all over the news? The fact these boys and men are exploited by men doesn't alter their suffering or make them less of a victim of sex trafficking.

Or perhaps that does that not fit with simplistic your black and white world view?

ChairmanWow Tue 12-Feb-13 01:45:19

'There are some men who're treated just as badly in similar ways, yes, and I think you'll find it's being done to them by other men. Not women.'

Isn't that what she kind of said? It's pretty hard to deny that the majority of people exploited by the sex industry are women and girls. That's not to trivialise the horrific experiences of affected men and boys. There is also a wider issue of objectification. How many of us have been ogled, or insulted because of our appearance, or groped, or sexually assaulted? Can we prove a link with LDCs? That's difficult, but you can be sure that the proliferation of clubs where men can buy women for their own gratification won't be helping.

You know, there is an issue of respect in terms of partners seeing strippers. My hubby knows I hold very strong views and when he was faced with this he said he'd wait in another bar - a couple of others said they didn't fancy it either. I don't really care about him seeing other tits, it's the political angle that bothers me. Gawd knows he's seen lots of other breasts sat next to me watching films.

Mind, the OP didn't really help her argument when she forced herself to watch the male stripper.

OP - YANBU. This problem seems to come up a lot on mn and the OP tends to get called all sorts before some voices of reason step in.

It is ridiculous to say a woman is BU because she doesn't want her partner who she shares her life and herself with to degrade their relationship by seeking sexual pleasure elsewhere.

FYI to all the posters saying you see just as much flesh on a beach...I'm wondering where you go to see a fully nude woman right in front of your face with no clothes on brushing her nipples on you and bending over to show you her vagina.

Wake up. It's cheating.

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 05:25:55

"
Have you never heard of rent boys or the current care home/sex ring scandal that is all over the news? The fact these boys and men are exploited by men doesn't alter their suffering or make them less of a victim of sex trafficking. "

Yes,I have. How is those relevant to the discussion?

ledkr Tue 12-Feb-13 07:54:49

Is this stil going? I have up because its frustrating to see so many women accepting of this and then telling those of us with an ounce of self respect that we are uptight or insecure.
I'm interested to know if its a generational thing are young women back in the situation if thinking men are simple creatures who need to be tirilated.
Are these the same generation who post on here about how to @fer over" an affair or "my dh isn't abusive but he hit me yesterday"
The majority of the women who say they wouldn't accept their dh going to strip clubs wouldn't actually need to be controlling and say no because they are married to respectful intelligent men who wouldn't want to.

ledkr Tue 12-Feb-13 07:55:19

Sorry I gave up

EllieArroway Tue 12-Feb-13 08:26:04

Ledkr & Seeker

Thank you for your well thought out posts. This has never happened to me on MN before, but you have changed my mind.

Can't really elaborate as I have to go to work now - but I am a big fan of personal choice. I always took the view (without stopping to think too much) that if a woman chooses to flash her bits and a man chooses to pay to see that then....OK. Their choice.

But you're right - this attitude falls apart when you confront the fact that 98% of these women are not choosing anything - at best it's a Hobson's Choice.

Anyway, thank you for opening my eyes to something that I really should have seen for myself. I shall learn more about the whole thing.

ledkr Tue 12-Feb-13 08:33:47

Ellie for what it's worth If my dh decided to go to one I wouldn't try to stop him but he would know that it would offend me and our daughters and that at the very best he would lose a lot if my respect for him.
He wouldn't be the person I thought he was you see. It would change us.

worridmum Tue 12-Feb-13 08:34:57

I am not trivalizing the asspects of of the sex trade I was just commenting on that the OP watched a male stripper and very few people cared about that but alot more people were saying LTB / deal breaker if their husbands went to a strip club would you find it acceptable if your husband/ boyfreind/ partner refused to let you see a male stripper? I bet if you posted that it would be met with a a huge amount of fuss saying the partner is controlling etc

sorry I am posting this i just hate hyprocticy

MechanicalTheatre Tue 12-Feb-13 09:00:09

worridmum

To say that watching a male stripper is the same as watching a female stripper is to completely ignore all political context.

Also, do male strippers grind their balls in people's faces?

Thought not.

worridmum Tue 12-Feb-13 09:29:29

Ok so its perfectily ok to exploit and objectify men then Mechanical? I dont ignore the problems effect female strippers but how come its not ok for one gender to do put perfectly ok for it to happen to the other gender the main problem with feminism they only care about there on gender rather then wanting to create an equal socitey just look at the rates for DV its a sad fact men still do get laughed out of police stations for reporting domestic abuse and there is only 4% of the founding for mens shelters (last time i researched it there were a grand total of 4 shelters) while yes women are the majority of cases should we completely trivilise the minotiry

so basically my point is if it not ok to objectify women it SHOULD NOT be ok to objectiy men as they are our equals but the number of women that hate there husbands going to theses places who are then perfectly happy to go to a watch a male stripper is just being a full blown hypocrate.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 12-Feb-13 09:34:52

worried mum maybe you need to read up on what goes on and the difference in the way strippers are treated

that is not to say men and boys have not been exploited in the sex industry they have and no one here is supporting it

I have worked with many ex sex workers what they have to deal with day to day is revolting its the attitude towards these women that they are to buy for fun nothing more. I also know a guy who runs a male dancing stripping group I have seen the women around these men they get silly, stupid but they do not insult the men they do not treat them as pieces of meat they idolise them in a rather childish way. Neither is right but it is very different

FreudiansSlipper Tue 12-Feb-13 09:39:49

and do you really think every women case of dv is taken seriously, do you think that she is automatically given a place to move away to, gets the legal support she needs

I agree that dv needs to be addressed seriously for both sexes there is nothing stopping men highlighting the problems men in dv situations face and nothing stopping women supporting this but the reason the re is support for women is that women have had to fight for it and still are and they have had to because it is such a big problem

ledkr Tue 12-Feb-13 09:54:48

Reading the last few posts made me realise that I would t want a strange mans sweaty arse crack and balls anywhere near me ugh.

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 10:28:13

Thank you so much for that, Ellie- wow, you've made my day!

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 10:37:15

Worriedmum- nobody is saying that it's perfectly OK to exploit or objectify men and boys.

However, there is a difference. In scale, apart from anything else. And in perception, and in the knock on effect on society at large. I suspect that a large part of the appeal of male strippers for those women who like them is the element of role reversal- it's funny and exciting to be "in control". Completely different from the usual roles of men and women in society.A female stripper dancing for a man is reality taken to extremes- the end of a continuum which starts with the assumption of male power. They are quantitively different things. I'm not sure I've explained that well- I'll try again if I haven't.

Oh, and by the way, I think male strippers are distasteful and degrading to all concerned.

AnyFucker Tue 12-Feb-13 11:08:16

I am beyond tired of getting involved in these threads

But for the record, I object to the sex industry in all it's forms. That includes male strippers, male escorts, male whatevers.

But these threads always get derailed with a what about the menz rhetoric. This thread wasn't about the feelings of a man, it was about OP's feelings. And she is a woman. So if I were her, I would think it beyond rude to keep harping on about how men have it bad too.

MechanicalTheatre Tue 12-Feb-13 16:39:10

Is that what I said worridmum ? That it's ok for men to be exploited?

No. It is not. I suggest you practise not extrapolating complete bollocks from what you've read.

Like you AF, I am SO tired of these threads and I am SO tired of explaining that I think the sex industry is shit in all its forms but that IT AFFECTS WOMEN MORE.

Still, we have changed one poster's mind upthread, so that can only be a good thing.

To be honest, I would think it a little weird if there WASN'T a stripper at a stag do. I'd be expecting it.

AnyFucker Tue 12-Feb-13 16:48:55

Yep, MT. One soul at a time, eh ? < sigh >

FreudiansSlipper Tue 12-Feb-13 16:56:48

Visual I think that is a shame that is what you would expect

the sex industry in recent years has become normalised to such an extent many think a stag night or a big celebration birthday should include a woman rubbing herself over her punter and often on business nights out too

this has nothing to do with the fact we are more open about sex it just that a few have used this to exploit women (and a few men of course) and so many have bought into it 20 years ago most women would have been disgusted at the thought but now we are more liberal it's ok hmm

SmileAndPeopleSmileWithYou Tue 12-Feb-13 17:01:26

If he was going to cheat on you it wouldn't be with a stripper. They are there to do a job and that is it. He could just as easily be unfaithful in a club/bar/pub.

If you trust him it isn't a problem for you.

If you don't trust him the relationship is pointless and he will be going to his brothers stag do anyway.

I wouldn't have a problem with this unless he was paying for a private lap dance or it was his stag do and they were targeting him. (I just think that is a bit too close). My DP understands and respects that but I trust him to make his own decisions and wouldn't be interrogating him when he returned.

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 17:05:08

And round and round we go..................

delboysfileofax Tue 12-Feb-13 17:46:55

Anyfucker- have you considered going to the police? You know, to report the person with the gun to your head forcing you to comment on these threads you are so sick of?
And it wasnt a "what about the menz" men were only brought into this because the OP was an outrageous hypocrite and was quite happy to watch male strippers. So men were brought into it because its relevant to the point

But hey ho, doesnt quite fit with your agenda does it.

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 18:06:02

Delboy- Several people have explained the difference between male and female strippers. They have also said that sexual exploitation is unacceptable, whoever the exploiter and exploited are.

Could you read the thread then come back and post again? Otherwise we're just going to have lots of misunderstandings and repetition.

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 18:07:16

Oh, and the OP wasn't "quite happy" to watch male strippers. She was put into a situation, like so many men seem to be, where she felt she had no choice- and regretted it.

delboysfileofax Tue 12-Feb-13 18:11:13

"it seemed a bit hypocritical, but i went anyway"
doesnt sound to me like someone in a situation they cant get out of.

Fillyjonk75 Tue 12-Feb-13 18:17:09

It would be the dishonesty that bothers me. When DH went to a strip club on one friend's stag do he told me about it. Fortunately most of his friends didn't organise anything of the kind for their dos. He also told me when two women chatted him up at a work do (I think as he was so shocked smile).

AnyFucker Tue 12-Feb-13 18:36:35

Fwiw, I think the op should have walked out if she didn't want to watch a male stripper

But
That wouldn't fit your imposed agenda upon me, would it delboy
?

delboysfileofax Tue 12-Feb-13 18:43:40

anyfucker you stated the thread was getting derailed with "what about the menz" comments. who first mentioned male strippers? was it the OP? Yes. So it is relevant to the debate to mention males, is it not?

seeker Tue 12-Feb-13 19:15:22

Delboy- are you saying that there is no difference between male and female strippers and the people who watch them? That they are qualitatively the same?

MarmaladeTwatkins Wed 13-Feb-13 09:26:26

Well it IS getting a bit "what about the menz", actually.

Granted, if it was just the hypocrisy of the OP that was picked up on, fine. But some posters are under the impression that being a male stripper equates politically with being a female stripper.

It doesn't. Don't try and kid the less dim among us that the men have got it as rough as the women here, thanks.

garlicblocks Wed 13-Feb-13 13:10:02

Well said, Marmalade.

Some posters are under the impression that being a male stripper equates politically with being a female stripper. It doesn't. Don't try and kid us.

garlicblocks Wed 13-Feb-13 13:27:45

For all those posters saying it's meaningless, if you can't trust him there's no relationship, etc ... WHY do you feel it's necessary to expose the trust in your relationship to this kind of test?

Isn't it more sensible to trust him not to have another woman rub her naked bits over him?

My ex once spent £2,200 on his own in a lapdancing club. He said he didn't have a private dance or 'extras'. Perhaps some of you can tell me just where you draw the line of trust - and how you get to that.

If you came home and told your DH you'd got pissed in a club and stripped off, done a load of dirty dancing, naked, with some of the men there, but it's all okay because nothing happened - would you say he should automatically trust you? If you'd paid these men, or they paid you, would that make it better or worse?

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 13:42:19

Garlic- in response to your last paragraph, it depends if you were pissed and doing that in a club probably wouldnt trust my partner. If they were a stripper then obviously wouldnt be an issue since thats their job.

Domjolly Wed 13-Feb-13 13:48:23

He is not a child who are you to ban him from any were the only people should be allowed to bann peple from places are pub landlords and the police


I had a stripper gram at my 24th years ago it was good fun a couple of my mates boyfriends at the time tried to BAN them from coming

It was the ones who had deeper issues in there relationsip

Also i have also ways been told by my gran its a bad sighn when your partner tries to control

What you weare
WHERE YOU GO
Who you who with
Or money

Op you are beeing very conrolling its his brother who i assume will only be getting married the once

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 13:51:26

Sorry garlic that doesn't read very well. Obviously meant if THEY were pissed and in a club...

Domjolly Wed 13-Feb-13 13:53:27

MechanicalTheatre yes male strippers do try and grind there balls in peoples faces you have never been to see a male stripper but bevause i have a husband i jsut say know thanks

I would iamagin like most people who tut tut most have nither been to male or female strip show i used to work in a strip club on the bar (not stipping) and i can tell you if and man so much as trys to put his hand out to touch a women he is slung out i have also been to see the dream boys type thing and i can tell you there was alot more touchig than you would ever get at a female strip club

Perriwinkle Wed 13-Feb-13 13:56:54

YABU.

Stag/hen dos have their own culture. Personally, I wouldn't want to go to the sort of hen do that involved male strippers and/or an Ann Summers type night featuring lots of gesturing with plastic phallus thingies, copius amounts of alcohol and a trip to a nightclub. However, I would happily go to one that involved a meal and few drinks. I'd feel the same about that if I were married or single.

Similarly, there are men who would quite happily go to a stag do that involved strippers/lap dancers, copius amounts of alcohol, nightclubs etc and those who would not feel comfortable with that and would only want to go to something more low key.

It's horses for courses.

Everyone has to do what they feel comfortable with doing, taking into account factors that will affect their decision. For some men and women, they will want to take into account the feelings of their wives/partners, if they are important to them. Something they might do if they were single is not something they'd feel comfortable doing when they were in a relationship.

Adults ultimately have to be left alone to make their own decisions. Being married to or in a relationship with someone doesn't mean you can control their thinking or actions. The relationship you have with that person will ultimately influence it though.

If after she's made her feelings known, the OP's partner has made a decision to go to this stag do featuring strippers etc, then he has clearly weighed it all up in his own mind and reached the decision that it's more important to him to go to the do than stay away just to keep her happy.

No amount of stomping of feet, sulking, threats, or throwing a wobbly by the OP is going to chnage that and would she really want it to? If she did then I suggest that would smack of controlling behaviour and deep insecurity in the relationship.

IMHO OP, it's either put up with it or do the other thing if it bothers you that much.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 13:57:25

Delboy- are you saying that there is no difference between male and female strippers and the people who watch them? That they are qualitatively the same?"

You're back, delboy- could you answer my question, please?

FreudiansSlipper Wed 13-Feb-13 13:57:27

what about a play on words

I know what we both did was wrong last year but I do not feel comfortable with you going to a strip bar and a party where there will be topless waitress, I feel it is degrading to view women in this way and to our relationship

I agree you can not ban someone from doing something but you can make it clear what your boundaries and why you feel that way. That is not about being controlling it is about having respect for your own feelings

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 13:59:36

Completely in agreement with you there dom jolly having worked in a club before and seen male strippers in night clubs i've worked at. But you are well and truly pissing up the wrong tree on this one. They will never see it as the same because as far as feminists are concerned women have it so much worse then men. They will never ever see it in the same light because female strippers are "vunerable" whereas when women go its just a bit of fun and they can laugh at the power dynamic changing for a bit.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 14:00:47

Are a significant number of men routinely trafficked to work in the sex industry?

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:02:55

See that freudianslipper would at least be fair. I think the reason this thread annoyed me was the fact she had the arse about strip clubs but that only applied to him

Perriwinkle Wed 13-Feb-13 14:03:37

Why do people insist on hijacking threads like this?

Stick to the matter in hand and take the whole intellectual argument about male vs female strippers elsewhere.

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:05:24

Seeker. Yep I think its exactly the same. Secondly whilst many women may be trafficked into prostitution they're not into strip clubs. I think you are deliberately confusing the two

FreudiansSlipper Wed 13-Feb-13 14:06:07

well that is down to the difference in what goes on with male strip shows and female strip shows and the topless waitress when the fuck has it been acceptable and a bit of fun to hire a topless waitress to serve drinks in a private apartment

Domjolly Wed 13-Feb-13 14:07:43

FreudiansSlipper sorry i think your worng having had friends not "be allowed out " by boyfirends because they dont like it and my firend who respected his feelings by siting in every weekdend for the last 4 years i would beg to differ

Personally i made it very clear to my oh that one thing i will not tolrate is hime telling me who i can go out with or were i can and cant go I AM Not A CHILD AND HAVE ALREADY BEEN raised

I not going to cheat i my view or run off with a stripper if he dosent trust me he can frigging leave but i wont be told what to do i seen to may friends practically confined to there house and it makes me so sad when women guilt men it to this

Its conrolling weather you emotioanly blackmail by crying everytime they ho out and i would imagin the average man gose on about 6 stags in his whole life time

MarilynValentine Wed 13-Feb-13 14:08:30

Fucking hell, so many supporters for the sex industry on this thread.

OP, YANBU.

The sex industry is run on exploitation and abuse. And your DH lied to you.

You have every right to be fucked off and every right to feel nervous of the next stag do. Talk to him about your concerns.

And as for the argument that he only lied in the first place because he knew you would be upset - ffs, that is no defence! Maybe a five year old child could use that as a defence but not an adult man.

Domjolly Wed 13-Feb-13 14:08:44

FreudiansSlipper ever heard of butlers in the buff who women hire to serve at parties naked

Domjolly Wed 13-Feb-13 14:09:33
seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 14:10:35

Ah, right. Fingers in ears, lalalala- don't want to hear it. No difference at all between male and female strippers, no power unbalance. Men have just as hard a time in the sex industry as women. Just as exploited and vulnerable. Just as abused, just as likely to be hurt. Jesus wept, some people are stupid.
Note to MNHQ - that was a generalised statement about the world, not directed at anyone specifically.

Domjolly Wed 13-Feb-13 14:11:19

Perriwinkle because if a women can on here saying my husband has band me form going to my sosters hen night were goung to see the dream boys

Every one would be screaming controlling twtat no one should tell you what to do tell o f off

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:15:51

marilyn- did you read that she went and saw strippers herself? She has no right to be pissed off with him if he is going to do the same surely.

I would see her point about him going if she felt really strongly about it, but she clearly doesnt. it seems a case of do what i say, not what i do

FreudiansSlipper Wed 13-Feb-13 14:16:02

so I feel It is very wrong for a man to pay a woman so he can get sexually aroused he can pay her for his own amusement

why is it wrong to say you do not want to be with a partner who would do that

HeyHoHereWeGo Wed 13-Feb-13 14:16:55

I would say

Go if you must.
But weigh up whether it will seem worth it when I am so disgusted at you that I cannot look you in the eye for months.
Will it be worth it when my respect for you plummets and I love you less.
We will be married a long time and if you think its worth having a wife that thinks you are disgusting, then thats your decision.

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:17:12

Ok seeker in terms of STRIPPING. How is it different?

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 14:22:24

Sorry, delboy. RTFT. It's all there.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 14:23:44

Making sure you don't miss the bits where those of us who are opposed to women stripping say that we're opposed to men doing it as well.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 13-Feb-13 14:23:44

do women ask the men to come closer so they can smell them ask them to rub their cock in their face, tell them they are out of shape, getting tubby, need to wax, smell, how much they charge for cunnilingus and their friends would like it too and so on

Perriwinkle Wed 13-Feb-13 14:25:36

I agree wtih you DomJolly.

As I said, if the OP's partner has decided to go to his brother's stag do knowing how she feels about strippers and the last do he went to then that should tell her all she needs to know.

The fact that she went to see a stripper herself makes her a massive hypocrite on two counts. The first being the fact that she even went in the first place and the second being that she thought it was axiomatic that her DP should trust her to behave impeccably there when she clearly isn't remotely capable of trusting him or willing to do so.

If she feels so strongly about this issue, and sees it as a deal breaker, she should end the relationship and put herself out of her misery. If she doesn't want to end the relationship then she should just let it drop, wish him a nice evening and move on.

It's my feeling that the OP is really very insecure in her relationship (hence her reference to her "scarily good investigation and interrogation") and that her DP has got the measure of her.

It doesn't seem like a particularly healthy relationship to me and I wonder how long it can last long term with all this paranoia and mistrust.

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:29:16

No its not seeker. All thats in this thread is a load of half truths and deliberate misinformation. At every point the anti strip club campaign has deliberately equated strippers with prostitutes, and there has been a very good reason for this. Yes prostitutes may be vunerable and abused does not mean strippers are. But lets pretend they are, Surely if female strippers are then also the same goes for the males no?

VinegarTits Wed 13-Feb-13 14:30:17

'essentially you don't trust dp.at all and trying to keep him on leash
you will have turbulent time in your relationship if you can't trust
this habitually setting ultimatums is no way to carry on,sort your relationship issues
'

i totally agree

MarilynValentine Wed 13-Feb-13 14:33:18

Yes it muddies things that the OP sat through a performance with a male stripper. She has made her own stance slightly less tenable.

But I agree with seeker in terms of the power imbalance. To clarify, we still live in a society where women are paid less, have fewer opportunities and run the risk of sexual violence far more than men. Sexual violence towards men is usually committed by other men. Groups of pissed men surrounding a naked woman is very, very different to pissed women surrounding a naked man.

And I think that the OP has concerns because of the whole situation - lying, lads holidays, topless waitresses in the apartment - there is a culture here within the DH's group of friends, of using women who work in the sex industry, and he lied about it.

This isn't just one stag do, it goes further than that it seems.

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 14:33:53

Nope. Not posting it all again. There have not been half truths and deliberate misinformation. Well, at least not from the anti strip club side.

And if you have to ask why women stripping for men are more vulnerable than men stripping for women, and think that there is no difference between the two, you have obviously never been to see either event. And if you think that trafficked women never end up in strip clubs you are living in Cloud Cuckoo land.

Domjolly Wed 13-Feb-13 14:34:24

FreudiansSlipper because the op went to see a stripper HERSELF but it just seems whats good for the goose is not good for the gander

May seemed to have skimmed over the bit were she paied some guy to swing his dick but are shock agaust and disgusted when a man pays for the smae double standrards much

Hhnsam Wed 13-Feb-13 14:37:43

Personally it's each to their own, when I married my husband I made a vow to him that I would respect him and have eyes for him only, he is the same with me, some people find it offensive that their fella would be gawping over a cheap tart naked personally theirs worse things a man can do but if you tell your partner your not happy about it he should take it on board... Although if your happy to gawp at a male that is double standards! If my partner was in a flat with topless women I'd be mortified he'd been disrespectful to me but that's my standards and if he didn't like it he knows where door is!

FreudiansSlipper Wed 13-Feb-13 14:38:38

has she said she would do it again? What she did was ok?

and really you can not see the difference between what she went to even though she has pointed it out they she was indeed hypocritical and private party with topless waitresses serving drinks hmm

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:38:54

Yes Marilyn, groups of pissed women surrounding male strippers leads to them all touching and groping, pissed men if they lay a finger on a stripper are out of there so fast their feet literally dont touch the ground. And again i state this from a lot of experience.

But because women are paid less and allegedly have less opportunities thats fine.

Just out of interest how many strip clubs have you been to of either variety?

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 14:42:19

"FreudiansSlipper because the op went to see a stripper HERSELF but it just seems whats good for the goose is not good for the gander

May seemed to have skimmed over the bit were she paied some guy to swing his dick but are shock agaust and disgusted when a man pays for the smae double standrards much"

You actually haven't RTfT have you? And you have not addressed the issue of the exploitation of women in ht sex industry, whether you care about the conditions they work in. Oh, and whether, if you have a daughter, you would be happy for her to be a stripper.

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:42:43

You're right seeker, I only used to work at one full time for a couple of years and a club i worked at after had male strippers on every fri and sat night. I clearly dont know what I'm talking about. where are you getting your first hand experience?

FreudiansSlipper Wed 13-Feb-13 14:43:51

I work with woman in the sex industry at the dv centre they run groups for these women

Also have a friend who is in a rather famous dancing stripping damcing group their experiences are very very different

MarilynValentine Wed 13-Feb-13 14:45:35

I don't go to strip clubs. But our culture is saturated with that sort of imagery and information about what happens.

However you have first person experience so I will take your word for it re the differences between the two in that sense.

But surely you must recognise that the sex industry (and society as a whole) objectifies and abuses women far more than men? Your example doesn't change anything other than to underline that women pose far less threat to the performer.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 13-Feb-13 14:47:16

Women who come into the centre too work mostly in London some in the so called sophisticated clubs where no prostitution goes onhmm it sounds like so much fun lord knows what they are so unhappy about

seeker Wed 13-Feb-13 14:47:33

I was for a long time an HIV/AID counsellor. I had a lot of dealings with workers in the sex industry. Who were far more likely to open with me than with their employers. One of the reasons I feel so very strongly about this subject.

And?

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:51:20

Fair point in your last paragraph marilyn. But I think that is also a problem, why is it seen that women groping a male is seen as just a laugh but men doing it to women is enough to get him a hiding?

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 14:53:34

seeker- and how many of them were strippers? NOT prostitutes? And the reason I ask is because if you have never been to one of these places how do you know how they operate?

FreudiansSlipper Wed 13-Feb-13 14:54:17

who said it was a laugh

but I think the way women view male strippers is different that is what it is a laugh not a sexual kick

MarilynValentine Wed 13-Feb-13 15:01:23

Anyone groping anyone is not okay unless it's consenting and doesn't involve the exchange of money (which is where control and exploitation starts and desire - that of the sex worker - ends. Their desire at that point becomes irrelevant).

I'm not saying that women groping male performers is alright. But there is a difference due to the power imbalance in our society and the prevalence of sexual violence. Please see my post earlier:

But I agree with seeker in terms of the power imbalance. To clarify, we still live in a society where women are paid less, have fewer opportunities and run the risk of sexual violence far more than men. Sexual violence towards men is usually committed by other men. Groups of pissed men surrounding a naked woman is very, very different to pissed women surrounding a naked man.

What I meant by that is that groups of women usually do not rape men. Lone women do not usually rape men. I'm not saying it never happens but men raping women happens every day, all the time. So maybe that is why the security in strip clubs has to draw a line.

And I think seeker's experience is hugely relevant.

delboysfileofax Wed 13-Feb-13 15:13:11

Depends on ones definition of sexual violence. If talking just about rape I'm in complete agreement with you Marilyn. If you're talking about sexual assault then the numbers would be very similar its just not reported by males.

I swear the following is true. When I worked at a "normal" nightclub I had my arse pinched mostly nightly and on several occassions women grabbed my cock to "see if i was in proportion" Now was the polices reaction to this; a) we will arrest her as we would a man, or b) a chuckle and "I should be so lucky!"

I dont think females are at any more risk than male strippers, and i think its wrong to suggest that a male would rape a female stripper if they could get away with it