to think that the further you are from the world of work, the crazier being a working mum sounds?

(1000 Posts)
StripeyBear Sat 09-Feb-13 15:06:38

I did it for 3 years - motherhood and a (part-time, but) demanding job... when you were always running from pillar to post, and buying take-away pizza, and feeling guilty because your child was crying when you left, and always being tired and hassled and answering your blackberry on your days "off" and being f**ked off because your job wasn't half as interesting as the work you used to get when you were childless and in the office full-time-plus....

Almost 2 years of being a SAHM later, my working-mother-friends come round for coffee on their day off and moan about all of the above.. It sounds familiar, but now even their moaning exhausts me. I'm more in a swapping recipes for lemon-drizzle-cake and making my own pizza dough sort of head space. These days I just potter around - my whole life has slowed down.....

Don't get me wrong - I realise I'm fortunate that we can manage without the wage (and not everyone can), but I find I am barely worse off (once the childcare is taken into account, and it is so much easier to spend money wisely, now that I don't have to buy crappy pizza because I am too exhausted to cook or book my holiday at the last minute because I wasn't organised earlier). And life feels so much better now that I'm not always exhausted... and I actually have time to do interesting stuff like read (grown-up) books... and there is no stress around childcare and the like....

So when my friends come round and moan about their blackberries ringing and being side-lined for promotions and feeling stressed about organising a child's birthday party when they have no time to really do it and so on.... instead of feeling oodles of sympathy... all I can think is... WHY? WHY? Why are you doing it then?

AIBU? I sort of suspect I might be sad

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:08:33

Yes, YABU. What works for you is great, it doesn't mean it would work for them: financially, emotionally, intellectually, practically.

NoelHeadbands Sat 09-Feb-13 15:08:51

Well yes that sounds shit but I'm a FT working mum and that's not my life <shrug>

Anniegetyourgun Sat 09-Feb-13 15:10:16

Er, because they need the money, maybe? Or because even though they prefer the lifestyle, it's not always a bed of roses? Someone else may have a moan about the less joyous parts of being a SAHM, but it may not at all mean that they don't want to be one, just that it isn't perfect, and grumbling is cathartic.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:10:34

Also, what Noel said, I don't recognise any of the gripes in your post, and I'm a "working Mum".

HollyBerryBush Sat 09-Feb-13 15:10:57

You answered yourself in your OP really - you are lucky enough to do without one wage.

On the otherhand there is a vast difference bettween working to make ends meet and a dedicated career person. the former has to work, the latter enjoys it.

corlan Sat 09-Feb-13 15:11:29

I was bored out of my mind when I was a SAHM.

Horses for courses and all that.

Anniegetyourgun Sat 09-Feb-13 15:11:47

I'm sure most of us would moan about our children, but asking why we had them then is not going to make you popular.

Give it 10 years as a SAHM and you might be wishing you'd stuck to working.

nkf Sat 09-Feb-13 15:13:58

Why don't you ask them? if they're your friends and all that.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:14:18

I do agree with Holly though, I would probably feel a lot more ambivalent about work if I didn't have a career I love.

CMOTDibbler Sat 09-Feb-13 15:16:04

Not my world either - I work ft, have a Blackberry, but I make my own pizza dough, book holidays, read books and bake cakes. And so does DH.

HollyBerryBush Sat 09-Feb-13 15:18:17

These sorts of threads always end up badly because there is a certain smugness about being supported by the DH and doing yummy mummy stuff all day.

Yummy Mummies IMHO should be taken away and have all the saccharine extracted from their very core grin

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:19:13

Oh yes I must have missed the memo about not being allowed to bake/cook if you are a working Mum.

(Although I would still feed my DS frozen pizza once in a while with absolutely no qualms even if I was at home all day every day).

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:19:46

Don't you ever moan about your life, at times?

I do know what you are saying. I was a SAHM for 10 years and what is wonderful is the lack of stress, or at least a certain kind of stress. But you are only 2 years in, and at some point you might decide you need a bit of stress, time pressure, independence, company, to talk to people who aren't also SAHMs, and all the myriad things that working gives you. Never mind the money.

It sounds like your job was too stressful and your children were young. I think I would have found that hard. Juggling everything when you don't love your job is pretty thankless.

I got bored at home, in the end. I don't bake, I don't sew, I had decorated the whole house. I wanted to work.

We all need to think about what we really need to be happy.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:20:35

Vinegar

Another reason I was a rubbish SAHM. I am crap at baking and I don't sew

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:22:34

Actually, to make one serious point, one reason I work is to "gift" time with our son to my DH, and vice versa for my boy. If we both work PT, we can pay the bills, enjoy our careers, and both enjoy plenty of time with him.

If I suddenly stopped working we wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage my DH would have to work all the hours of every day to compensate. And actually, I don't think that would be a good thing for any of us.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:26:20

I have been a sahm for a decade and I love it. But I have loads of friends who are WOHMs and they are neither moany nor cliche.

I think you are being very unreasonable and if being a sahm is making your ability to understand that others make different choices you might want to do something to change your environment a bit. You might be getting a bit set in your ways (as my mum would say)

RubyrooUK Sat 09-Feb-13 15:26:51

YABU.

But I'm a full time working mum and although it can be hard, making cake and pizza dough just isn't my thing. I find my job very interesting and I'm very proud to have achieved so much in my career.

I think your life sounds lovely but that's because it makes you content so it's obviously right for you. Which is the best situation.

But it wouldn't make me content or lots of other people I know who find their careers very stimulating so YABU.

TheMagicMumber Sat 09-Feb-13 15:29:54

I work full time, used to be a SAHM. I do more nice things now than I did then, I think it got so bloody boring that I slowed down too much and became a lifeless baby-feeding machine. Now I go to work, see my kids, cook (sometimes, DH does more), do fun things in the evenings and weekends, and generally get a lot more out of life. smile

janey68 Sat 09-Feb-13 15:30:26

I don't recognise the world you describe at all OP

I worked pt when my children were small, and certainly didn't waste time going round to friends houses and moaning on my days off. I was too busy making pizza dough, playing with the kids and mopping wee off the floor etc!

Maybe you have particularly moany friends... Perhaps they'd moan even more if they were home 24/7 !

sleepyhead Sat 09-Feb-13 15:30:51

I think the mistake (and of course if all your friends are in exactly the same position that you are in then it's not a mistake from your pov) is in thinking that wohm = your experience.

I have a reasonably well paid job, 3 days a week, no commute really at all. I do work sometimes on my days off or in the evening, but that's my choice and a quid pro quo recognition of how amazingly flexible my employers are in enabling me to take time off/switch days etc to fit in with unexpected family commitments. Most working mothers I know are in a similar position to me.

My life wouldn't be easier if I was a SAHM. We'd be in financial shit.

StripeyBear Sat 09-Feb-13 15:34:17

TBH, I don't think I moan much JamieandtheMagicTorch
I do think mothers in general moan too blinking much... have never understood how people can have endless boring conversations about how many times they got woken up the previous night... I mean - HELLO - Babies and toddlers wake up at night. DD is 18 months and still waking 2 or 3 times a night, but she will grow out of it eventually, and over all I just feel incredibly blessed to have such a generally happy and healthy little girl. I do often find myself wondering WHY people have children if they find them so bloody irksome?

I enjoyed my job prior to having children - I can't really think of a career I would prefer tbh, and I am good at it, and got promoted easily and given interesting work. However, I really love being with the children - watching them grow up is endlessly fascinating to me, and I felt very torn leaving my child in commercial childcare.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that a couple of years ago I would have been hugely sympathetic to all the working mum moans, but as time has gone on - being a working mother seems increasingly barmy... and I am finding it harder and harder to dredge up much sympathy.

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 15:36:50

Lucky for you. Jolly good. Aren't you great. Not everyone has the same life as you. Empathy would be good.

Single parent. Working. Knackered. Pissed off with your smug tone.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:37:39

Read your post back and see how many "I"s are in it.

Are you truly incapable of understanding that other people may feel differently to you even when those same people spell it out to you?

TheSecondComing Sat 09-Feb-13 15:38:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sleepyhead Sat 09-Feb-13 15:38:45

Oh come on Stripy! You're moaning now!! Granted, it's not about how often your dcs wake in the night or how hard your working life is. But it's still bloody irritating...

RubyrooUK Sat 09-Feb-13 15:39:43

Mainly it sounds like you don't like your friends that much, Stripey!

I am happy for my friends, both SAHM and WOHM, to talk to me about anything. Sometimes that includes moans about sleep deprivation, careers, childcare, families, relationships....I don't really mind as I like them and appreciate them confiding in me.

If you feel like people ONLY moan to you, I guess you need to change the subject more often. Or find people who better suit you.

Sparklingbrook Sat 09-Feb-13 15:39:59

YABU. There are so many variables. sad

We are all trying to do our best with the circumstances we are in aren't we?

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:41:43

If you think your friends are moaning too much then either get new friends or ask them politely to stop.

But don't use their moaning to extrapolate your half-baked theory that all women would be happier as SAHMs just because you are, because it simply isn't true.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:43:28

Genuinely, if I found myself sitting at home thinking 'gosh this is the right way to live, i don't have much time for those who chose differently' I would be alarmed.

It is a short skip to the Daily Mail, meeting Barbara for a cup of coffee at 10.20 every other Tuesday and getting exited about the new Per Una range.

nosleeps Sat 09-Feb-13 15:45:54

I work ft in a big job that's challenging and interesting.
I cook, clean, bake make a mean lemon drizzle, spend plenty of time with dd.
DH doesn't earn enough for us to live on. It's a lot to fit in. We both get tired, but it's how we have decided to live and we are all happy. No moaning here!

Kat101 Sat 09-Feb-13 15:45:57

I survived the sahm phase for about 3 years. Year 4 I felt like I was going brain dead. I was too depressed to bake etc, I felt so isolated in my kitchen on my own. Got a lovely flexible part time job after 4.5 years and I love the balance that is now in my life.

Yanbu to have your opinion. I think wohm's are often knackered and like to moan about it, but they might find the alternative even harder. To think that sahm-ming would be easier for everyone would bu.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:46:22

Stripey

re: the "I don't know why people have children" comment. To be fair, one doesn't know ^quite how irksome they are until one is already lumbered. grin

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:47:26

TSC

Oh yes, that is so true. I used think "how can I possibly do a supermarket shop and visit the GP on one day"

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 15:48:57

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VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:49:12

Even when I was working 40+ hours a week (part time hahaha) nights, weekends, 13 hour shifts, with a high needs 6 month old who only napped in the sling, co slept and BF all night, I honestly don't remember moaning. Occasional rant or sigh on Twitter, but seriously that was it I didn't have the energy

diddl Sat 09-Feb-13 15:50:02

So you think they should give up work so that they moan less??

I agree with a pp-get new friends or ask them to shut up!

I don´t go out to work, my best friend does.

Sometimes we both have a moan, sometimes one of us, sometimes neither.

She´s my best friend, I love her to bits-she can moan on at me for as long as she likes when she needs to tbh.

TheMagicMumber Sat 09-Feb-13 15:50:11

"I do think mothers in general moan too blinking much"

Until this I thought you were just being a bit nobbish.

StripeyBear Sat 09-Feb-13 15:51:00

VinegarDrinker yes, lovely to share care, and keep both careers going. We did consider that, but in all honesty, it wouldn't have worked for us.

Pagwatch thanks - I think you're right I may be a bit intolerant or maybe you just have less moany mates grin I do think there is something particular about my working friends, desperately trying to keep careers thriving whilst still making gingerbread with the kids and having fantastic sex and studying a part-time philosophy masters because they still want me-time. Yes, yes, I know you can do all this stuff (because I tried), but it is incredibly exhausting... Perhaps it is the preserve of middle-class, highly educated, career-minded women, who also want to be very hands-on with their kids who are trying to do the impossible and therefore understandably MOAN all the fecking time...

When they moan though... I just want to shake them... and say... "Be grateful for your lot. And if it stresses you out this much. Stop. Doing. It."

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:51:22

I moan about my job and my children. And I work with children, so I get to moan about them too. It's a right moan-fest here.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:51:33

Did I forget to mention it's also a seriously responsible job as well as physically demanding

<gets out tiny violin and woe is me face>

Seriously, OP the problem lies with the fact you see your friends moaning to you about the trials and tribulations if their lives as a chore. Change your friends, or your attitude.

NationalLottie Sat 09-Feb-13 15:52:53

Swapping lemon cake recipes? Zzzzz

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:53:13

X post

OK, I get you. Which should they stop? I'd go for the sex. Too much trouble, IMO

slatternlymother Sat 09-Feb-13 15:54:20

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earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 15:54:28

Stripey some of us just can't "stop doing it"

What would you suggest I do? I don't have a DH I don't have a safety net.

you sound unbearably smug.

slatternlymother Sat 09-Feb-13 15:55:32

way of life

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:55:42

Ah, see, this is where having No Standards Whatsoever helps the stress levels.

Our house is chaos, we eat freshly cooked or convenience food when we feel like it, if DS and I feel like a PJ and CBeebies day we will bloody well have one. But we are all happy, well balanced and not dying of malnutrition, so all is good.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:55:48

earlier

To be fair to the OP, she's talking about her friends, not all WOHM

Sparklingbrook Sat 09-Feb-13 15:55:54

Yes earlier I am struggling to understand the 'stop doing it' bit. Not an option for all. confused

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 15:55:57

Yabu as you suspected. Each to their own, they may need to work for financial reasons/to stay sane/to keep on a hard won career/for future independence etc etc

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:56:56

I agree, Jamie. Plus they might end up with more kids to moan about.

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 15:57:15

but jamie because they're just friends, the OP won't know the personal private ins and outs of their financial obligations. so she won't know whether or not they have to work.

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 15:58:06

We could easily have afforded for me not to work when the DDs were tiny. Infact, I tried being a SAHM twice, for 6 months each time.

But, both times I felt like I was climbing the walls with boredom within 2 weeks. I hated being a FT SAHM...how many times can you make a fresh pasta sauce, or tidy a cupboard. Swapping recipes for lemon drizzle cake...? I'd rather stick pins in my eyes, ta very much hmm

Being a SAHM bored me shitless...and I didn't look forward to weekends, because my whole week was actually just a weekend.

For me to be happy and energised I needed to go back to work, part time, doing a job I adored. It gave my week structure, exposed me to intelligent, adult conversation for 2.5 days per week (not SAHMs droning on about nappies), and made me appreciate my days off and weekends.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 15:59:14

I think Stripey seems incapable of not projecting her own experiences as a WOHM on to everyone else. So you found it stressful, guilt inducing etc? That was you.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:59:34

earlier

that is true. I can see how your back would be up if you don't have these choices

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 15:59:35

You last comment makes it sound more like you are irritated by women who try to be perfect at everything and then complain it is hard.

I think there are some people who do that but it isn't restricted to wohm. A woman I know but tend to steer clear of is endlessly taking on stuff and then moaning about but she is a sahm. Her thing is being chair of the PTA and organising the teas at swimming and helping with the theme day at school - all fab but that is all she ever talks about and it is always in martyred tones.

I think you are complaining about something that has nothing to do with being a wohm or a sahm tbh.

I would get new friends though. They do sound a bit whiney and you don't seem to like them anymore. It happens sometimes

Stripey - in 5 years when your dc are at school and your husband has become resentful about earning every penny you spend and you want to go back to work and find nobody wants to employ you , well THEN I think you will see why they work and you'll feel really foolish about this thread.

I look forward to reading your friend's comments 'Our mate Stripey was bloody smug about sahming for years and insinuated we fed our dcs crap and left them with ravening wolves whilst we climbed the corporate ladder. Now we're better off and she can't get a job that she thinks she deserves all she does is MOAN. Are we being unreasonable to think WHY did she do that?'

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 16:00:16

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DTisMYdoctor Sat 09-Feb-13 16:00:18

I'm a working mum with a decent job, but my experience is nothing like what is described in the OP. I've never had any guilt about working and I love my DS very much. Maybe some people are better at coping with being a working mum than others.

Now, SAHM's moaning about having to entertain the kids during the school holidays baffle me...

Different people make different choices about their lives for a multitude of reasons - working mum or SAHM, neither is any barmier than the other.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 16:00:31

Very perceptive post Pagwatch

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 16:01:16

Pag

I know someone like that

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 16:03:57

<<whispers>>
Can we not counter stripeys unreasonable and cliche comments about WOHMs by posting unreasonable and cliche comments about sahms.
After all many of us will at some stage be both. And most people I like know just think women are pretty great dealing with their responsibilities in the best way they can.

Ta [winning and hopeful smile]

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 16:04:18

Another working mother who just does not recognise the world you describe, nor do any of my working mother friends moan as much as yours. Maybe we are just better organised? I can quite happily fit in everything I need to do because I love making lots and lots of lists and being efficient.

Putting on my cod pyschologists hat for just a tiny moment, I suspect what you are trying to do is justify a choice you may not be entirely happy with.

But hey, what do I know?

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 16:04:50

Haha, YY laqueen How many variations of lemon drizzle cake are there. How very interesting hmm grin

MystiCally Sat 09-Feb-13 16:05:06

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catgirl1976 Sat 09-Feb-13 16:06:14

WHY? WHY? Why are you doing it then?'

1. Need the money
2. Enjoy working (although a lot less now I have DS)
3. Have neither the patience nor stamina to look after DS 247
4. Like the adult company
5. Worked hard to get where I am
6. DS is only going to get more expensive - someone has to pay for that

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 16:07:19

O yes and as to the anguished WHY of your post, sadly some of us weren't quite so clever to snag a moneybags hubby - or indeed any hubby at all. So there's your 'why' from me.

BluelightsAndSirens Sat 09-Feb-13 16:07:49

I prefer to be working now the DC are in school but was fortunate to be able to stay at home when they were little.

I'm not a moaner by nature and it helps that I enjoy and feel valued in my work which makes me a happier person than I believe I would be just staying at home all day although a major factor in me being a SAHM would be not having a car - I love the freedom my car gives me.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sat 09-Feb-13 16:08:04

Too right Pag

It's so boring.

janey68 Sat 09-Feb-13 16:09:56

Right stripey- now that you've posted a bit more, why not go back and re-write the op so you're being upfront about what you really intended to say. You aren't mildly bemused by your working friends who sometimes have a bit of a moan about the kids waking in the night. You actually just want to moan yourself (oh the irony!) about other mums who aren't doing the same as you.

It's fairly clear why you gave up work: you said yourself that when you went part time you weren't given interesting work to do, and you also felt guilty about using childcare.
Well, this clearly comes as a revelation to you, but we don't all have that experience. Some of us keep working after children and don't get lumbered with all the boring stuff- our careers remain interesting. And we don't all feel guilty about using childcare. My children were thrived in nursery, there was absolutely nothing for me to feel guilty about. 3 days in nursery, 4 days at home a week- great combination when they were small, and I was able to get back up to full time work when they started school because I'd kept my hand in

Its a shame it didnt work out for you being a WOHP but don't assume it's like that for us all

ninjasquirrel Sat 09-Feb-13 16:11:04

YABentirelyU for generalising. I love being a working mum (admittedly in a not very stressful job) and very few can 'just not do it' and not have to worry about money. If you had said "My friends take on extra stuff that they don't need to do like a philosophy course, and then moan about not having enough time", then fair enough.

Startail Sat 09-Feb-13 16:11:12

YANBU
Every time DH moans about some insanity of their procedures I'm so glad I don't work.

I having to fill out forms requisition, finance and health and safety forms is not something I miss.

FirstTimeForEverything Sat 09-Feb-13 16:11:12

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 16:12:03

I know MN would die a slow death without all the SAHM/WOHM to-ing and fro-ing but it isn't half dull.

It's like being surprised that we don't all like the same food, or fancy the same men/women, or enjoy the same TV programmes.
Newsflash! People are individuals!

Startail Sat 09-Feb-13 16:12:53

Oh fuck, I can still write coherent English, when not interrupted by DCs.

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 16:16:41

Why in 2013 are we still arguing about this bollocks? Most women I know have been SAHM and WOHM and something in between over several years. We all juggle different pressures and challenges during our families lives. I love my job, I am a happier person and a better parent for having it. That's me though, works for me and mine.

nkf Sat 09-Feb-13 16:18:00

I think you should make new friends. Ones who like making pizza dough. And then you could discuss how to make better pizza dough with them. And the long winter mornings would just fly by.

DolomitesDonkey Sat 09-Feb-13 16:18:34

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Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:20:23

Allowing? hmm
She is looking after kids and home, hardly a teenager...

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 16:21:29

earlierintheweek Ditto

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 16:21:31

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kerala Sat 09-Feb-13 16:22:56

I worked in a madly busy high pressure high paid high status international travel job was very happy to chuck it in to be a SAHM. Have loved it and wouldn't change a thing (have worked from home but only made £8k a year so doesnt really count) but realised I am madly jealous of fellow SAHM who has just got a 5 day a week interesting job during school hours. My youngest starts school in September <dusts off CV> quite excited at the thought of changing camps from SAHM to WOHM if someone will give me a job grin

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:24:37

Phil, you've hit the nail on the head - most of us will be/have been both sides of the fence so where's the solidarity rather than bitching about each others choices?

janey68 Sat 09-Feb-13 16:25:33

We never seem to get threads started by bored WOHM just wanting to have a dig at SAHM. Funny, that.....

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 16:25:41

I never felt a moment's guilt for going back to work. Why should I, when working made me an infinitely better, nicer, more relaxed, more pro-active Mummy to my DDs?

They spent 2 days a week at a great nursery, with all their little friends and bubbly young nursery nurses, who were paid to be smiling and patient and fun and creative all the time. The adored their nursery.

Then for one day per week, they were doted on and waited on hand-and-foot by their besotted grannies.

Then 4 days with me...but the nice, calm, positive, energised me smile

It was a win/win/win situation all round smile

And, like spero I am extremely organised - my house has always run like clockwork, whether I was a SAHM, or worked part time, or even full time (as I did for a short while, when the Dds were toddlers).

Fresh towels were put out every day, rooms were tidy, cushions plumped, bathrooms sparkling...probably because I wasn't faffing around perfecting my 127th recipes for lemon drizzle cake hmm

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 16:28:26

I've seen bashing from both sides and it is grimly funny that the reaction seems to be

'how dare you judge my choices you smug cow - at least I am not (insert smug judgey criticism of other posters choice)'

And they never, ever see the irony

butterflyroom Sat 09-Feb-13 16:28:37

YABU - sorry, I work in a full time, 'demanding' and well paid job. I've worked bloody hard and relish the challenges my job offers. I also have time to do lovely things with DS, friends and family because I have good time management. Don't get me wrong, I can feel tired and do look forward to holidays but this post is more about your lack of ability to manage a positive work/life balance in your previous role. By the way, I love marksies drizzle cakes grin

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 16:28:47

Janey68, most excellent point <adjusts fetching pyschologists hat>

I wonder why that is?

kerala Sat 09-Feb-13 16:28:52

I have been a SAHM for purely selfish reasons and happy to admit it. Am sure DDs would have been fine in decent childcare.

sleepyhead Sat 09-Feb-13 16:29:25

Janey, have you really never come across Xenia? grin

Actually, I don't think she really starts threads, so that's not fair.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 16:30:20

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Ashoething Sat 09-Feb-13 16:30:22

Op starts a thread spouting cliches shite about wohm. Then they wohm pile in with cliches shite about sahm. Yet they are failing to see the irony...

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 16:30:43

I try never to unfairly judge another's choice in life, but a little part of me always twists inside when someone is championing a 'choice' which is denied to many I.e. the luxury of not having to work if you don't want to...

kerala Sat 09-Feb-13 16:30:53

Ha yes according to Xenia SAHM are essentially prostitutes <grabs push up bra and feather boa>

janey68 Sat 09-Feb-13 16:31:53

Sleepyheads- WOHM will quite rightly defend their position when attacked. But I said they don't start threads simply to attack people who make different choices. You do need to ask why that seems to be the case ...

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 16:32:15

I genuinely have no choice. I have no DH to allow me to sit at home and bake lemon drizzle cake. I wonder how many of my friends I have offended when they've run me to ask how my day has been and I've said crap because of this and that and the next thing.

Anyone is entitled to do and be whatever they like wohm sahm p/t f/t and anything in between. But to sit smugly having no sympathy and inwardly shouting why as the op does is just horrid. imvho.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 16:33:11

Xenia is her own unique micro climate. I am just as bad as a sahm in her eyes because I chose a poorly paid area of law in which to specialise.

Haha! Ipad auto corrected 'sahm' to 'sham'.

kerala Sat 09-Feb-13 16:33:12

All the WOHMs are I know are super organised and up together.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 16:33:15

I'd say the majority of posts from SAHMs and WOHMs have been eminently sensible actually. Couple of tired cliches, definitely, but "piling in" is over egging it.

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 09-Feb-13 16:33:32

You answered it yourself OP. You weren't earning much more than the cost of your childcare. Other people earn enough that there is a point.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 09-Feb-13 16:33:35

YABU, just because you gave up juggling both doesnt mean other mothers should. The majority work and parent very succesfully.

Work isnt always just about money. Its about company, using you mind, having a life outside children rather than being a bore that can only talk about one thing. Its also a huge responsibility to make the other adult the only earner and getting back into work when the children go to school and dont need you will be hard.

I work for many of the above reasons plus I dont want DS to grow up believing he needs to work a job for many hours as by virtue of his sex he is expected to work so that his wife doesnt have to as she fancies reading or baking instead.

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 16:33:50

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

butterflyroom Sat 09-Feb-13 16:34:03

nevergoogle grin

sleepyhead Sat 09-Feb-13 16:34:14

Op, you should have concentrated your efforts on achieving a £100,000 per year career, and then your dh could have stayed at home to make pizza dough and lemon drizzle cake and listen to your moaning friends.

Sorted.

perplexedpirate Sat 09-Feb-13 16:34:27

Maybe they are moaning to make you feel better about being stuck at home with nothing more interesting to think about than lemon drizzle cake? hmm

nkf Sat 09-Feb-13 16:36:50

The OP produced the cliches. I would never have dared to mention pizza dough or lemon drizzle cake if she hadn't. It would have seemed patronising and not at all what I think women who don't work do. But it seems it can be.

FirstTimeForEverything Sat 09-Feb-13 16:38:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 16:38:10

Op maybe you were shit at being a whom? Just like I was shit at being a sahm.

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 16:38:19

I am only ever going to refer to baking as 'dumb fuck baking' from now on...it's just unfortunate that I won't get to use the phrase that often, as I have never actually baked a thing in my life.

I spent 6 months trying to be a SAHM, and tried to intergrate myself into the SAHM coffee-circle...all they talked about, all they feckin talked about was babies, and babies development, and more babies, and the best nappies, and more babies, and breast-feeding, and more babies...

If I could, I would have bludgeoned myself into unconciousness with my coffee mug - but felt it would have seemed rather churlish.

WorriedMummy73 Sat 09-Feb-13 16:38:34

I'm a SAHM and I hate it. My kids are all in school all day now and I've been out of the workplace for 8 years (made redundant. At the time I couldn't find anything else to fit in with the hours I'd been working and that paid the same wage so I decided to take time out. Fast forward to now and I've done an Access course, been accepted to Uni (to do Teaching) and had to quit after half a term due to being not meeting criteria for childcare costs, but unable to afford it ourselves. That was five years ago. After that, had dc 3 and been fighting pnd ever since. So, present day, have almost 7 hours each day to myself with very little to do. Am not into baking (actually loathe cooking), not into gardening, crafts, home decorating, or anything else supposedly 'motherly'. Miss work like crazy and am thoroughly sick of dp (and all his friends from what he's telling me) feeling that my 'job' now is cooking, cleaning, being a Mum and 'taking care of dp' (his words). I miss my 2.5 days at work, but can't find anything that would fit in with school hours and not leave me out of pocket in after-school (and breakfast club) fees each month. So, yeah, op, you're lucky that your life is as you want it, but please don't think we all have it/want it like you.

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:39:34

Has it come down to whoms v shams?!grin just trying to lighten things up a little...

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 16:40:49

FirstTime, what, you're doubting your choices because a few random people you've never met have made boring cliched judgements about women who don't work? I think you should work on your self esteem tbh.

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:40:54

I like dumb fuck baking! Does that make me a dumb fuck?

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 16:42:09

you read the recipe and you do as it says. big fucking woop. grin

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:42:25

Worried- have u thought of contacting your local cvs for voluntary work? Quite a few options and expenses generally paid

FirstTimeForEverything Sat 09-Feb-13 16:42:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RubyrooUK Sat 09-Feb-13 16:43:18

You shouldn't feel guilty FirstTime if that's what you want to do and you can afford it. If that isn't the case and it is best for you/your family to return to work, don't feel bad about that either.

My real life friends are a mix of FT working, PT working and SAH parents. Actually I couldn't remember immediately who is doing what without thinking about it, as I like them as people so other stuff stands out - personality, humour etc.

At different times, they have chosen different routes. I work full time because I enjoy my career, need the money and it works overall for our family. Perhaps I will do differently in future.

SAHM and WOHM are not different species, judging by my friends anyway, so it all seems a bit of a pointless debate to me.

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:43:49

Actually am perfectly capable of dumb fuck burnt baked goods despite following recipe..

WorriedMummy73 Sat 09-Feb-13 16:44:57

Salbertina - what's cvs? Haven't heard of that. I did do some online IT tutoring, which I absolutely loved, but it averaged out at around £40 a month(!) for all the hours God sends. They've recently emailed me to see if I'd like to come back on board (I stopped because our internet was always down) and I'm umming and ahhing, but the money is really, really bad...

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 16:45:08

Oh lovely. Another thread where the wohm's all round on the sahm and can't see the irony in doing that!! Lol!
And as for the person upthread who said that wohm's never start this sort of discussion off. Oh yes they do! All the bloody time!
I wondered how long it would take someone to say that sahm's are 'swanning around' how they were 'bored shitless' and 'brain dead' and that you're unemployable if you've had a period of sahm'ing. Didn't take long.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 16:45:39

well it sounds like you need more practise.

i have an overwhelming urge for lemon drizzle cake now.

FirstTimeForEverything Sat 09-Feb-13 16:45:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrsbunnylove Sat 09-Feb-13 16:46:53

you sound ok, stripeybear, glad to be at home and all that. very reasonable if you can afford it, and you're right, taking childcare and takeaways into account the mothers who work might not be gaining much. what you gain from being with your children is beyond price.

working mums are, however, maintaining an employment record. which you aren't. and which might leave you looking a mite foolish in ten years' time when you want to work again - or when your oh finds someone else and leaves you in the lurch, which we hope will never happen.

studying/training/taking extra qualifications will help. volunteering also. you need to have a record without gaps, you need to be doing something to improve your position, to update your skills etc, all the time. ready for when the world of work looks amazingly attractive, or when its the only option.

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 16:47:38

What is a lemon drizzle cake?

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:48:57

Community volunteers service (possibly different name regionally):

http://www.csv.org.uk/?display=volunteering

fallingandlaughing Sat 09-Feb-13 16:49:11

Well I'm a full time working Mum and I don't recognise your description.... Easier to pace myself at work then all day with my wild toddler. Maybe you just weren't very organised?

DP is a SAHD but never makes lemon drizzle cake. Pizza dough once in a blue moon.... He is also averse to Cath Kidston and doesn't swap recipes with anyone. Maybe he's doing it wrong.

Your post sounds terribly smug and self-satisfied. But I don't think that's a SAHM thing. Maybe it is just you? Your friends must find you a barrell of laughs.

charlottehere Sat 09-Feb-13 16:50:09

You are assuming an awful lot about both WOHM and SAHM, as there are may variables, you are going to be way off the mark for many.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 16:50:43

Yes, all the WOHMs are rounding on the SAHM. Can't you see us all, rounding? hmm

OR, someone posted on AIBU and was told, yes she was BU. and the usual bunfight ensued

superstarheartbreaker Sat 09-Feb-13 16:50:46

op biscuit It's basically a stealth boast stating that your dh earns enough so you don't have to work. I love going to work personally but dd is at school.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 16:50:57
Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 16:51:02

Ashoething

And you assumed my comment was aimed at WOHMs why? I m not the slightest bit anti wohm. Are we supposed to only be on one side?


Fwiw i think the bash and counter bash about sahm/wohm seems to produce posts of jaw dropping thickness, sometimes from even normal sensible posters.

Most people arn't boring or twee or selfish or brilliant or funny or dull - especially dull - because of how they spend their day.

My friends are a pretty even split between sahms and WOHMs. They are great and pretty similar in the things that matter - funny, responsible, interesting, kind, smart.

I don't understand the animosity and I don't understand the trotting out of clichés which, if men used them about women, we would think they were utter arseholes.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 16:53:14

and the usual Bunfight ensued should just be posted immediately one of these threads starts

Ooooh its The Usual Bunfight Ensued

I can just post TUBE and <hide thread>

Hooray grin

RussiansOnTheSpree Sat 09-Feb-13 16:54:11

@mrsbunny Perhaps the OP couldn't earn much but that doesn't mean that other people can't.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 16:54:42

amazed that the wohm's on this thread can't see how ironic their spiteful mockery of sahm's is.
Also feel a bit sorry for people who say they 'absolutely hated maternity leave' and were 'brain dead' as a sahm. Perhaps that's a lack of imagination and effort on their part rather than a fundamental flaw in the role of a sahm! When I was working I met just as many fuckwits, probably more, than when I was a sahm. At least sahm's can get away from there. Kinda hard when the fuckwit is sat opposite you in the office.

RubyrooUK Sat 09-Feb-13 16:55:58

Agreed Pagwatch. smile

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:56:18

Actually i do think most posters are being quite reasonable, always exceptions

Ashoething Sat 09-Feb-13 16:56:33

Pagwatch-I didnt assume anything about your post. I merely pointed out that the op used many cliches when talking about wohm. And the same old cliches about sahm were spouted back.

Like yourself I have a mix of friends who are sahm/wohm-I find none of them boring or only able to talk about baking/nappy rash. Women should do what suits them and their families. No need for people to try and deride other peeps choices to make them feel better.

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 16:56:58

"Most people arn't boring or twee or selfish or brilliant or funny or dull - especially dull - because of how they spend their day."

Well, exactly Pag.

Boring people are boring, regardless of what they're actually doing.

You can sit drinking coffee and eating lemon drizzle cake with people who can make you throw your head back with laughter...and you can sit drinking coffee and eating lemon drizzle cake with people who want to make you bite your own leg off with boredom.

mrsbunnylove Sat 09-Feb-13 16:57:09

@russians - earn what you like, earn a fortune. someone else gets to be with your baby. enjoy your money.

i don't mind either way. my point to the op is that sahm is a vulnerable position and she needs to watch her back. while the rest of you forge ahead with careers, she might be making herself unemployable.

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 16:57:56

nevergoogle that wasn't a lemon drizzle cake, that was the MN bat.

<in training for MI5>

higgle Sat 09-Feb-13 16:58:13

I was a working mother with 2 sons, returning to work at 6 weeks both times. To me it just meant being very organised. I had a lot of support from DH ( though he worked full time too) we had a nanny when they were very little and she became our childminder once she was married and had her first child. I used to recruit a student in the summer or my mother would cover for teh odd week. I enjoyed my work so much that it was worth the little bit extra time and thought needed to ensure we were all ready in the morning and still ate nice food - I can't turn to packets and takeaways due to gluten allergy and vegetarianism in our family. I think sometiems that aprt time work is not the good idea it sounds, you are identifying yourself for the "mummy track" and have all the complications of working life with not too much of the rewards.

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 16:58:40

Hear,hear Ash and LaQueen!

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 16:59:36

Ah. I thought you post echoing mine and finishing 'and they fail to see the irony....' was a comment about my post before yours.
If it was just a coincidence then please ignore me.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:01:33

I think sometiems that aprt time work is not the good idea it sounds, you are identifying yourself for the "mummy track" and have all the complications of working life with not too much of the rewards.

I quite like the mummy track. I prefer spending time with my dc's than at work.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 17:01:41

I know LaQueen
Sometimes I have decided if I find someone funny and interesting or fuckdull and tedious before I have even asked if they are a sahm or a wohm

It's reckless but I am a crazy mixed up gal.

mrsbunnylove Sat 09-Feb-13 17:01:52

daughter, if you're reading this, i don't mean you! you sorted your career before having the baby. now you get to stay at home, play with the baby, and do lots of good things. that's my clever girl. i love you.

now look! i'm caught both ways. reasonably, i want to advise stripey not to be unaware and to keep some kind of eye on the possibility she might want to go to work. but my baby might think i'm criticising her, because she stays at home, too. no!

oh i've got to get off this thread! this hole's getting bigger and bigger. time to stop digging, bunnywoman!

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 17:04:31

I am not mocking either choice.

I am merely pointing out that the OP seems to lack empathy, won't understand the financial ins and outs of her friends and seems smug.

Nothing to do with whether she works in or out of the home.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 17:05:43

DUMBFUCK BAKING!!!!!!! grin

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:05:54

I agree, it's great that we now have the same choices as men
the choice to be out all week and not see much of our kids awake
I feel liberated.

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 17:07:26

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 17:07:26

Oooooh I like TUBE as a new acronym. (Is it new? I am...)

I want to know what the Mummy Track is now, though. And how I identified myself as being on it. Or not.

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 17:09:21

"It's reckless but I am a crazy mixed up gal."

Me, too Pag ...care for a tequila stuntman...or, shall we have the lemon drizzle cake...?

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:09:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 17:10:52

Hannah, do you pour scorn on fathers who work long hours in the same way? Or is it just mothers that you feel the need to judge?

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 17:11:19

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Casmama Sat 09-Feb-13 17:13:09

What a smug, self satisfied OP.
Being a working mum is barmy, be grateful or stop doing it. Honestly what a lot of nonsense, I'm irritated that I am even responding.

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 17:13:14

Actually, really...it's just boring people, who bore me shitless...

But, boring SAHMs are the worst, because they have a whole arsenal of boring baby-based shit, to bore me shitless with.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 17:13:43

Hannah I really don't think it is to do with how 'clever' you are. Some people like babies, enjoy their company, others don't. I didn't. I really disliked a lot of it. I loved going out on adventures, but staying in and playing games a toddler liked I found hellish. Time never moved so slowly than when playing 'schools' with a toddler and 12 teddies.

We are all different. Not necessarily better, just different.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 17:14:33

I have just had an epiphany.

Ultimately these threads make me want to send lots of posters to their rooms and think about their behaviour because it's none of their business so they should stop shit stirring.

These threads turn me into my mum shock

Arggghhhhhhhhhhh..

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:15:59

Vinegar, we all judge. There's a lot of judgment on this thread. Ironically, it's mostly directed from the wohm's towards the sahm's.
And whilst I'd never admit it aloud, I would judge a family with two full time working parents of very young children who didn't need two full time incomes.
Obviously I wouldn't say anything, but I'd certainly judge inwardly. We all do that. Just look at the judgment above from wohm's who think sahm's are braindead, dull, unemployable etc etc etc..
It's not ideal for young children (google attachment theory) to be in daycare full time. If someone's going to judge the sahm for being 'dull and unemployable' or the part time worker for being 'on the Mummy track' then why can't I judge someone who wakes her kid, sends to childcare, picks kids up and puts kid to bed?

janey68 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:16:29

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

kerala Sat 09-Feb-13 17:18:20

Im with Pagwatch on this thread ridiculous to pigeonhole people and marks you out as a leetle bit thick...

Laqueen you should have spent time with some of my old work colleagues. Super bright top league with lots of "mental stimulation" but dull as ditchwater I would rather chew my own arm off than voluntarily spend time with them.

Also dont see this as two "camps" my friends do all sorts of things some are SAHMs some are professors/top level government/fashion etc

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 17:19:34

Hmm. HannahsSisters40

But you see how objectionable and unfair you find those judgements? Why do you think a reasonable response is to post nasty stuff implying that WOHMs care less about their children than you do?

You kind of lose the right to complain about the nastiness if you are posting grim stuff yourself. Don't you?

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 17:19:52

dropping my boys off at breakfast club this week an hour early for school, I announced, "They've had breakfast I'm just sick of the sight of them", before returning home for a day off sick on the sofa under a duvet.

mwaaahahahaaaaaa. this is not an entirely relevant post i understand that. grin

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 17:20:30

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

PhilMcAverty Sat 09-Feb-13 17:21:11

I have the answer to the whole issue, it's the stay at home dad.

I've told DH to crack open the cookbooks and get the lemon drizzle recipes ready.

mrsbunnylove Sat 09-Feb-13 17:21:34

as someone who was a sahm, and eventually did have to go to work, i know how much having kept busy helped, and filled up any gaps in my cv.

HomeEcoGnomist Sat 09-Feb-13 17:23:04

Hannah - curious to know how you would determine when/if a family needs 2 incomes?

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:23:13

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 17:24:40

Could you link to these threads please hannah

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 17:24:45

Nice try, hannahssister.

catgirl1976 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:24:55

Out of interest Hannah, in your family where 2 people work and don't "need" the dual income, whom would you judge / expect to give up work?

rainrainandmorerain Sat 09-Feb-13 17:25:28

Feminist working mum here (WAHM, self employed, vocational job, main breadwinner) - just to save anyone having to guess. That's enough info for anyone to judge me without having to read the rest of the post, if you want!

To point out the obvious, a lot of working mums have no choice but to work. Financially speaking.

That aside - I do understand how working and having children can leave women feeling as if they are doing 2 things badly rather than 1 thing well. So much depends on how much support you have at work and at home. Some mums, if they are able, choose to focus on their family at the expense of work/career - others do the opposite (I hear a LOT from ft working women with young families that it doesn't matter who is looking after their children, as long as they are safe and cared for, etc. I have never seen any evidence that this is true - while I would dearly love to see dads more involved with childcare, and taking time off work in the way that mothers do, I see no actual evidence that fulltime nursery care for babies and small children is good for them, whatever people feel subjectively).

I find I am not happy to only see my children at the weekend - so make considerable compromises with my work and other areas of life (fitness, social life) to try and fit both in.

Personally I loathe everything being 'timetabled' - I think it turns children into problems, especially small children, and often leaves me trying to cram work in at daft times of day when I am exhausted.

However - my career would not allow me to take say 3 or 5 years away from work. There is no realistic part time equivalent of what I do. My partner would not be able to support us if I was not working. I would not be able to find part time work without taking a much lower status, low paid job in a different field.

So while I do get some job satisfaction from what I do, and I have a basic happiness at spending as much time as I can with my ds - I would probably complain of all the things your friends complain of, OP.

I have posted because you wondered why they live as they do. I hope you can see these are some answers.

janey68 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:26:18

Not angry at all hannahsisters- you trying your cod psychology again?!
Just waiting for you to link to a few of these threads started by WOHM solely to attack SAHM!

Casmama Sat 09-Feb-13 17:26:29

It is ridiculous to say whether more threads are started by wohm slagging off sahm or vice versa unless you read every single thread ever posted and keep a tally.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:28:54

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catgirl1976 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:29:26

WOHM:s 928

SAHMs: 929

Dads: 0

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

badinage Sat 09-Feb-13 17:30:45

OP have you ever found yourself wondering "WHY?" about your friends' partners working? Assuming that is, they are men?

If not, why not?

janey68 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:31:56

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HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:32:35

can't remember the names or dates, but there are, as you will be very aware, a vocal and sizeable group of women who come on here mostly to mock sahm's. I remember pulling one up about it last month when she compared sahm'ing to slavery or prostitution

Viviennemary Sat 09-Feb-13 17:33:35

Being a working mum can be really stressful. But on the other hand a lot of people who have taken a number of years out of the workplace will find it hard to get back in at any sort of level. I know a couple of people this has happened to. If you don't care about than then fine. Enjoy being a stay at home Mum if you can afford it.

FirstTimeForEverything Sat 09-Feb-13 17:33:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MysteriousHamster Sat 09-Feb-13 17:34:42

I am offended by your posts OP. You seem to think all working mothers have a choice.

I DO NOT.

We could not afford the mortgage if I worked.

I am currently going through a bit of a fucking tough time given that it's the busiest time of year at work, I've recently had a miscarriage, a death in the family and a whole bunch of illness.

So I'm moaning more than normal. My friends are supporting me, thank fuck, though I suppose they could be posting things like this without my knowledge.

But the point is I moan to get things off my chest to my friends, while also hoping things will change. I keep my eyes out for other work, I am reducing stresses where I can, but in the meantime I can't simply afford to quit my job.

Open your eyes and don't be such a bitch. STOP. DOING. IT.

Emandlu Sat 09-Feb-13 17:35:10

I find it incomprehensible when working mums moan all the time. I also find it incomprehensible when sahm moan all the time.

If you don't like where you are either do something about it or quit moaning.

Some working mums drive me potty, some sahm drive me mad.

All in all, you do what is best for your family and to hell with what anyone else thinks.

Shrugs.

Sulawesi Sat 09-Feb-13 17:35:58

Nevergoogle grin!

I hate the assumption that all SAHM's are boring and just talk about nappies and formula. There is a middle ground and some of us SAHM's are just as bored with talking about babies as the next man and avoid it like the plague.

Why on earth can't I be a SAHM and mentally stimulated and interesting to talk to? The two aren't always mutually exclusive - Christ I've worked with some boring bastards in the past too. What is the conclusion - that only boring people stay at home and only interesting people go to work hmm what a load of fuckwhittery.

I've been a SAHM for 10 years and haven't baked a thing in that time or exchanged a single recipe - too busy talking about the economy or some such with my equally interested friends.

OP you do sound very smug it has to be said, all that pizza dough crap, gives us SAHM's a bad name doncha know?

MysteriousHamster Sat 09-Feb-13 17:36:24

If I didn't work, argh fucking typos!

MysteriousHamster Sat 09-Feb-13 17:37:21

Must add among my friends there are SAHM and working parents and I never judge them for their working choices. Families do what work for them.

NationalLottie Sat 09-Feb-13 17:37:56

Ironically I have very much enjoyed a large slice of lemon drizzle cake this afternoon, delicious it was, and I managed to fit it in with my exhausting crazy WOHM schedule.

badinage Sat 09-Feb-13 17:37:58

why can't I judge someone who wakes her kid, sends to childcare, picks kids up and puts kid to bed?

Ah, so all that stuff about judging families was bollocks then?

It's just mothers you judge?

LaQueen Sat 09-Feb-13 17:38:01

"then why can't I judge someone who wakes her kid, sends to childcare, picks kids up and puts kid to bed?"

Because Hannah plenty of adults really don't enjoy the baby/toddler years and find them very draining and tiresome. It is perfectly possible to love someone very much, and yet often be bored by them/their company - I know, I felt just like that about my dear Dad.

But, very, very quickly the child gets older, and needs to go to bed later and later - and, as a parent you get to enjoy the rest of your life being a parent to your child, and spending time with them, and loving them and enjoying them.

Emandlu Sat 09-Feb-13 17:38:23

Having read the post above my last one, I would like to admit that exceptional circumstances mean moaning is probably beneficial. There are things you can't change but jobs generally you can re-train, and sahm can generally find pt work when the kids are older etc.

noviceoftheday Sat 09-Feb-13 17:38:29

God OP, I feel sorry for your friends. The wohm life you describe is not mine. Our family holiday in April was booked back in October, my kids eat a freshly cooked meal every meal because I meal plan and then do grocery online shopping according to the list, my blackberry is switched off Friday evening and not on till Monday morning and I am a senior woman in the City so not side lined for anything, thank you very much. I do have my moans but my friends are lovely and supportive.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 17:39:22

Ah, you met Xenia there, hannah grin

FirstTimeForEverything Sat 09-Feb-13 17:40:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PickledInAPearTree Sat 09-Feb-13 17:40:54

I'm friends with both sahm and wohm and never get any of this shit in real life. I work freelance at home so feel more like a sahm.

I wouldn't dream of judging someone for working or staying at home. How silly is that.

And where the hell is Scottish mummy?

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:41:02

funnily enough BigAudio, that wasn't Xenia! I know it sounds like a Xeniaism, but it was someone else!

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 17:41:24

Lemon drizzle cakes is astonishingly divisive. Yet now I really fancy some.

PickledInAPearTree Sat 09-Feb-13 17:42:15

I love lemon drizzle cake. I actually wouldn't mind a good recipe. Mmmmm.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 17:42:57

Hahaha at Xeniaism grin

Sounds like a cult.

cult

Mia4 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:43:35

YABU for asking why they are working mum's OP, but you should know that. You have no idea if they choose to work, or have to work and since you aren't an integral partner in their relationship it's likely there's a lot you don't actually know- even if you think you do. And YABU to judge everyone else the same as them.

YABU as well in that they are your friend and friends moan to each other- do you really think somewhere in the past or down the line you haven't done the same to them? Moaning about family, friends, job, home, parents, school, kids? Because if you haven't, you will.

I can understand why you'd be annoyed by repetitive moaning that's exactly the same, but again can you say you've never done it? I used to moan a lot about work-at the time all i could do was leave because the issues I had could not be sorted, but i couldn't leave because there was no jobs. My friends probably got sick of hearing about it until a new job came along. Now I'm seeing another friend go through exactly the same and i remind myself of how i felt back then when it frustrate me.

You may see an 'easy fix' to their problems but it may not be as simple as you see it. Why don't you just ask them? You may be surprised by the answer you get

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 17:44:04

Of course it was Xenia.

Tilting at windmills, HannahQuixote.

NationalLottie Sat 09-Feb-13 17:44:04

Lemon drizzle cake is best eaten while "running from pillar to post".

Fenton Sat 09-Feb-13 17:44:13

As Pag said pages back, do we have to counter unreasonable and cliched comments about WOHMs by posting unreasonable and cliche comments about SAHMs ?
After all many of us will at some stage be both. And most people just think women are pretty great dealing with their responsibilities in the best way they can.

Sorry for stealing, Pag, but I thought it might be worth saying again.

and now I'll be accused of arselicking I expect grin

And

TUBE

Carry on....

FirstTimeForEverything Sat 09-Feb-13 17:45:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 17:45:50

of course it's a wind up. but it's a larf innit. grin

fwiw, initially i worked part time after DS1 was born before finding it flipping impossible. PND, still breastfeeding and not sleeping at night. so I chose to give it up and i was a SAHM for about 3 years. I had to take an evening job purely for some social interaction and mental stimulation during that time and worked on some art projects for an exhibition in 'spare time'. I returned to work when DH was unexpectedly made redundant from his job. Initially part time as that was what was available, then full time. DH assumed SAHD role for about 3 years.
As of this week we are both working full time for the first time since DS1 was born 8 years ago.

So I've seen it all from many perspectives and to summarise there really is nothing worse than a smug judgemental SAHM.

I suspect the real thread title should be, "AIBU to think the that the further up your own arse you are, the more in need of a MN reality check I am?"

Sulawesi Sat 09-Feb-13 17:45:53

I've got loads of SAHM friends and plenty of working friends too, we are all incredibly supportive of one another and never make digs at each other either. We respect each others decision to work or not and help out when we can with lifts, having DC's to stay etc. I just cannot imagine having this discussion for 'real'.

I love my friends dearly though so maybe that's why unlike the OP who just seems to want to point score hmm

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 17:46:01

TUBE !

Hooray. I invented something.

Meglet Sat 09-Feb-13 17:47:41

I'm a PT working single parent and I moan, moan, moan, moan, shout and grumble all of the time. I'd like to not work but am rather fond of eating and having a warm, cosy house.

Having said that I expect that in 20yrs time when my kids will have hopefully both finished Uni I will look back and figure it was worth it. Won't stop me being a ratty cow in the meantime though.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:49:21

I count myself a sahm, although technically I'm on the 'mummy track'
I've also been full time wohm (for a very brief period of 6 months)
I don't necessarily believe that having the means and ability to do everything men do is a positive. I don't know many men who wouldn't jump at the chance of working fewer hours so they could see their kids more. I wouldn't be so envious of men and what they do! There was a big survey recently of working mums and it revealed that a tiny infitismal number of mums want to be full time. The 'mummy track' might be a handy way for old fashioned bosses to dismiss women, but doesn't make me feel pressured to work more.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 17:49:24

Oi, I'd like a tiny bit of credit for TUBE too, please.

Please? <keen newbie face>

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 17:49:53

FirstTimeFor Everything

Just advance search 'prostitution' as posted by Xenia.

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 17:51:40

I like working and would do my job full time if the hours were available.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 17:52:04

[sigh]
Ok VinegarDrinker.

Well done for the whole TUBE thing.

<<pats head fondly>>

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 17:52:21

The thing that I find a bit hard to process, is that anyone gives a fuck what anyone else thinks about whether they are a WOHM or SAHM. I'm a WOHM and I care about the debate on a political level, bur I really don't give a monkeys uncle that hannah (or any one of yous lot) believes my kids are neglected/deprived of love/attention/lemon drizzle cake confused

Salbertina Sat 09-Feb-13 17:52:29

Quick rehash, ex longterm wohm but currently short-term sahm which explains my lack of brain cells ; ) but forgot what TUBE was again?

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:52:43

Nope. I swear on my life that the 'slavery and prostitution' remark was not made by either Xenia or scottishmummy. It might have been inspired by a Xenia comment in the past, but it was made by someone else.

SueDunome Sat 09-Feb-13 17:52:49

I have not read the whole thread, but have skimmed through and agree with those who say that when your dcs are older you will regret the decision to not work at all.

My dcs are now 15 and 10 and I have just returned to ft work, having worked every combination of pt work possible over the last 15 years to juggle and accommodate my dcs and my career, self worth and contribution to the household income.

But, the most valued and totally unexpected reason that I am glad that I made the choices I did was recently when my ds wrote in an essay that both his parents had a good work ethic and this motivated and inspired him to work hard at school. smile I have to admit that I was gobsmacked when I read it, but it made me realise that everything we do is noted by our dcs even if they don't comment on it and our actions are what are shaping their future.

Casmama Sat 09-Feb-13 17:53:14

"I don't necessarily believe that having the means and ability to do everything men do is a positive"
Sometimes I despair! I really hope you are not bringing your children up to believe this bollocks.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 17:53:59

"I don't know many men who wouldn't jump at the chance of working fewer hours so they could see their kids more"

But can't you see that the way you are advocating of women staying at home, means those same men have to work longer hours to pay the bills? HannahsSister

Or would you have everyone at home all the time, and living off thin air?

sleepyhead Sat 09-Feb-13 17:54:39

Xenia doesn't think children should be put into full time childcare. She thinks you should get your finger out, out earn your husband by ££££££ who will SAH until you send them off to top schools. Or get a nanny.

She's very anti people moaning about their lot in any case, both wohm (earn more, buy in paid help) and sahm (get your finger out, earn £100k)

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 17:55:18

TUBE - The Usual Bunfight Ensued

A brand shiny new meme invented by me Pagwatch upthread

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 17:55:35

Hannah then could do a little bit of work and find those posts yourself. Advance search is there.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 17:56:24

Thankyouverymuch Pagwatch, very gracious smile

I feel like a total loser now

Pickled you must make Mars' LDC

it's the dog's bollocks

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 17:57:00

Xenia has her own island. I want to live on it with her and fight about the division of labour.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:58:19

Sigh.
That was not what I meant.
I meant that men don't necessarily enjoy working all the hours god sends and only seeing their kids at weekend, so why would this be seen as some feminist ideal? How many women, apart from the ones on Mumsnet that is, enjoy being out of the house all day and only seeing their kids to wake up and put to bed?

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 17:59:22

and telling women that they must work like dogs and subcontract childcare elsewhere is removing one form of subjugation for another.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 18:00:19

So, surely the way forward is more flexible, reduced hours working available for all that want it, HannahsSister, not widening the gulf between "workers" and "non workers".

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 18:00:56

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 18:02:44

" and telling women that they must work like dogs and subcontract childcare elsewhere is removing one form of subjugation for another."

I must have missed the bit where anyone said that.

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 18:02:59

Quite Line.

sleepyhead Sat 09-Feb-13 18:03:03

Most men don't work all the hours god sends and only see their children at weekends.

Honestly, it's another middle class mumsnet thing, where everyone who works has some sort of high-flying career where you work a minimum of 60 hours per week, travel all the time for work and have the Blackberry permanently at your side.

Lots of us have dhs who work 40 hrs, don't actually earn loads but also don't work out of hours, don't have 4 hr daily commutes and see quite a bit of their children thanks.

The number of men doing school run and attending parents events at ds's school is very, very high. I really think that outside the London rat race things are changing.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 18:03:20

So, surely the way forward is more flexible, reduced hours working available for all that want it, HannahsSister, not widening the gulf between "workers" and "non workers".

Absolutely! Most sensible comment on the thread.
It's not the bloody 'Mummy track' it's a sensible way to keep working and spend more time with the children. And yes, before someone jumps in....only if part time is an affordable option!

gordyslovesheep Sat 09-Feb-13 18:05:47

I do it to avoid being yet another Tory stereotype 'the single mother on benefits' ...so I am now a 'career obsessed woman who dumps her kids' (see Daily Hail for further definition) grin

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 18:06:52

You'll be supporting the Green Party's manifesto, then, hannah?

Excellent.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 18:07:32

or worse, "single mother on benefits bakes own lemon drizzle cake"

I started off thinknig the OP was getting an undeserved kicking - I know when I have a week off the enormity of going back to work seems huge, especially as my first dayback usually involves getting up at 5, however, as the thread has gone on the OP seems to hve more and more the attitude that the default would be for the woman to stay home - life stressful? Give up your job. And it's that attitude that means that the woman's career will always be seen as secondary to her husband's "real" job. As for working single parents, well bah the lot of you.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 18:10:12

Single mums shouldn't ne allowed lemon drizzle cake

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 18:11:14

just who do they think they are BigAudio?

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 18:11:38

Single mums shouldn't be allowed to afford lemons.

tut tut gordy. And if you want any more kids you'd better stop "pursuing your career" and get round to "snagging a man" now before you find you've "left it too late". Or some such shit.

rainrainandmorerain Sat 09-Feb-13 18:12:10

Hannahsister, fwiw, I don't think it's ideal for parents to be working all hours and putting babies and small children in full time childcare either.

I live well outside london and know a fair few toddlers that are dropped at nursery before 8am and picked up after 6pm - 5 days a week.

I loathe the assumption that as a feminist I am supposed to find that an ideal way of combining work and family.

I want to see much more flexible working, paternity leave that isn't tokenistic, parental leave that is flexible, and a cultural shift that encourages men to spend more time with their children as well as accept shared responsibility for running a household.

gordyslovesheep Sat 09-Feb-13 18:12:14

We shouldn't be allowed any cake at all - only nice biscuits and the occasional plain digestive

Yes those single working mums just want to bake and have their lemon drizzle cake and eat it.

nice biscuiys meaning the plain ones with sugary tops? OK then. But no hob nobs.

gordyslovesheep Sat 09-Feb-13 18:14:37

I don't want to snag a man sad I am probably
a) to career focused
b) a sexual
c) too beautiful
d) too fat
e) too left wing
f) Not Liz Jones

gordyslovesheep Sat 09-Feb-13 18:15:20

oh god yes - definitely not naice ones with chocolate and stuff

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 18:15:41

stick with biscuits gordy, stick with biscuits.

AmIthatWintry Sat 09-Feb-13 18:16:36

I agree with Spero and Earlier

For some, it's not a choice.

Lucky you, OP, lucky fuckin you.

.....and I do love spending time with my DD, it's just that I have no choice.

YABU

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 18:22:33

yay, SPB!

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 18:25:04

Exactly Iam. The question 'why would you work when you have children' is either staggeringly naive or as many have said, deliberate shit stirring.

I had to go back to work when my daughter was young because if you leave the law or medicine for a few years you are not realistically going back because in your absence thousands of younger and hungrier people have swarmed up the ladder. I had to go back because I was a single mother and it was either work or go on benefits. Not much of a choice I think.

It may not be 'ideal' to have young children in day care but nor is it 'ideal' to have a child raised by a depressed, resentful and poor mother.

Or is what is being argued that on those women clever enough to bag the big bucks husband should be allowed to have children?

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 18:31:10

assuming the relationship and his career are future proof, yes, I think that's what the argument is.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 18:32:58

..and his physical and mental health, and that he can walk past a bookies, and that he doesn't develop a gluten allergy and leave the lemon drizzle baker redundant also.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 18:35:26

Thought so.

Well, shit happens. I never set out to be a single mother but here I am. I wish you all lives full of opportunities to make the most of your choices and sufficient grace and empathy to recognise those less fortunate.

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 18:36:33

Yes Wales!!!!
As you were

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 18:37:13

Nevergoogle <chortle>

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 18:37:24

I think there are actually posters on MN who would respond, when asked what I was actually supposed to do when ExH buggered off without warning, 'Give the children away to a nicer mummy with a proper life.'

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 18:40:20

hmm, that award winning architect I married, well, he doesn't have that job anymore. seems a shame to kick him out or fall out of love with him for it...best i just earn as much as i can and keep the kids lives as stable as possible no?

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 18:40:37

I do not get this thread.. whats the question?

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 18:41:17

I am actually quite excited now I finally feel we have dug down to the bedrock of this debate - there is, for some, only one 'proper' way of being a family and that involves snagging a wealthy husband who then never appears in the debate.

idshagphilspencer Sat 09-Feb-13 18:41:48

Sod SAHM and WOHM
WALES ARE BEATING FRANCE
smile

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 18:42:01

There is no point, no question. Just meanderings in the tides of hope, virtue and goad.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 18:43:21

It was worth it for dumbfuck baking alone.

brettgirl2 Sat 09-Feb-13 18:43:46

Hahaha. The difference is that in real life sahms aren't smug, self satisfied and boring like the OP. Instead sometimes they find things bloody hard, and admit it because staying at home isn't a bed of roses either. Too much lemon drizzle cake is not only bad for the waistline but also most people's sanity.

So the OP feels sorry for me not liking maternity leave. That's sweet grin… And shock horror I work in a job share and don't need the money, how smug is that?

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 18:47:34

Spero and I now have a cake recipe.

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 18:48:11

o sad I do not have a wealthy husband, he teaches!!
But It does mean I can bribe him with a fiver!!! (Only messing of course).

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 18:49:35

Yes, rainrainandmorerain, that's what I think.
It's not feminist to 'play them at their game' if their game is a shit one.
Far better to slowly change our culture of working, so both parents have the option of spending more time with dc's. I continually hear 'feminists' say they want to do the same things as men. And we do have that right. Thank goodness. Equality is essential. But time and time again women, perhaps because we get pregnant, give birth, breastfeed and do the maternity leave, say they'd rather be at home more, either part time or full time. That's not a failing.

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 18:53:07

How many women, apart from the ones on Mumsnet that is, enjoy being out of the house all day and only seeing their kids to wake up and put to bed?

Huh?? Not many. I often do not even get this on my working days but that is life. They need a home they need food. Where else will I get it?

lljkk Sat 09-Feb-13 18:56:14

I never understand the tensions between SAHM vs. WOHM. Isn't it lovely we have so many options to suit our individual circumstances?

Just realised I know very few (current) FT working mums. Can only think of two & their DHs work very PT. Plenty 100% SAHMs/SAHDs. Mostly part-time SAHPs. I belatedly realised in my old profession that Mothers were a rarity of any kind in it.

Weird because I am applying for FT jobs so presumably I will soon join the WOHM madness. I do have a choice & I think it's time for a change. Time I had some life of my own again.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 18:56:19

It's the counter argument sunshine. For every wohm saying sahm's are brain dead, unemployable or 'going insane' there's a wohm missing her kids and bit working 'through choice'
The answer is more flexibility, decent pay for part time roles and for employers not to overlook part timers as less committed women on the 'mummy track'

rainrainandmorerain Sat 09-Feb-13 18:57:09

I wonder, reading this thread, if the great division isn't so much between SAHMs and WOHMs (which I do think is a bit of a media led 'debate' anyway) -

But between those working mums who are basically happy with the way things are, in terms of leave/work/childcare (happy to embrace a traditionally male career model) - and those of us who want to see a more radical transformation of working lives to allow a greater flexibility for BOTH parents, and alternatives to full time childcare for pre-schoolers.

I think there is also a big gap between those parents who are working because they have to, and those who work because they want to.

badinage Sat 09-Feb-13 18:59:40

I don't ever hear feminists saying they 'want to do the same things as men'. But maybe they are different to the 'feminists' in inverted commas in your post........

I only ever hear feminists talk about what a crap deal patriarchy is for women and men and how changing the whole way society works with its very prescriptive notions of who does what according to people's genitalia.

Changing it into a society that determines that work, parenting, domestic work (and anything else you'd like to mention) would be done according to people's skills, aptitude, abilities and preferences.

Not what's between their legs.

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 19:00:29

I continually hear 'feminists' say they want to do the same things as men

Do you, hannah, do you really?

And why the inverted commas?

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 19:00:50

i think i just fell in that gap, I have to work, no question, but I really enjoy it.
in fact, I'm very proud that I provide for my family the way I do, i sure as hell can't bake.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:02:29

I agree. The male career model is not great when babies/small children are involved. I only know one family where both do this. They're both commuting and out from 7.30 to 6.30 and baby is with a childminder. They're not happy with the situation and I'm not surprised.

VinegarDrinker Sat 09-Feb-13 19:03:41

rain I am happy with my life, and our family's work/life balance, without being happy about the wider situation. But then we have what could be described as the sort of childcare/work utopia you are describing (we both work PT, in careers we enjoy and at a level appropriate to our experience, DS, almost 2, is with one of us 3 weekdays and in a small parent-run cooperative nursery the other 2 days. )

If additional paternity leave was paid at the enhanced rates maternity pay is, in most organisations/companies, we would definitely be utilising it.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:03:44

and to be honest, the 'male career model' is not great when they're older either. I've got a teenager and I'd sure as hell not be happy to have her to her own devices for 50 hours a week.

noviceoftheday Sat 09-Feb-13 19:04:39

Hannah i was hoping you were going to answer catgirls question. Dh and I both work full time. We don't need the dual income. So who are you quietly judging then? Me or dh?

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 19:05:54

My DD is a teenager and she is in college longer than I'm at work.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 19:06:32

Hannah, as someone else said on a feminism thread, you seem to be confusing feminism with capitalism. Things are shit not because uppity women want the same shit as men but because we have all been landed up to our necks in the hideous consequences of greed, materialism and ever rising house prices.

I would love to have a sweet little part time job knitting cupcakes or whatever but for now I have to go where the money is. And that is true for all of us no matter our genitalia.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 19:06:55

perhaps your teenager could get a job. I was 12 when I got my first job.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:08:59

Novice, I wouldn't judge you out loud. But privately I'd wonder why either one of you wouldn't want to reduce your hours a bit to maybe spend more time with the kids. They grow up way too fast and I want to hang out with them, call me weird.

"LineRunnerSat 09-Feb-13 18:37:24

I think there are actually posters on MN who would respond, when asked what I was actually supposed to do when ExH buggered off without warning, 'Give the children away to a nicer mummy with a proper life.'"
Oh you are being silly. All we'd need you to do would be invent a way of turning back time and then going back to make different choices. Obviously you'd have to do your inventing in the children's nap times.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 19:10:18

well to be fair it's easier to knit when you haven't got a penis getting all caught up in your yarn. grin

ModreB Sat 09-Feb-13 19:10:34

I was a SAHM for 7 years. By the end of that I was crawling the walls with boredom and frustration. Went back to work FT, then unexpectedly got pg with DC3. Had him, then went back FT when he was 6mo, so I can see it from both sides I suppose.

I loved being at home, for the first couple of years, but after that felt so bored and unfulfilled.

It depends on the individual, I have some friends who have never worked after having DC's they are happy with that.

I have others who couldn't wait to get back to work. They are happy with that.

All my DC's are sucessful, happy, balanced individuals. I think that this is because I was a happy individual, whether I was a SAHM or a WOHM.

As long as the choices you make are right for you and your family, do what you want as far as I'm concerned. It's none of my business.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:10:51

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 19:14:18

Well precisely. This is way it's so unnatural all these pesky women going out to work with their neat retractable genitalia. Men in the home environment will be continually tripping over their willies or getting them in unfortunate proximity to the lemon drizzle mix.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 19:15:54

rofl. I guess that explains what DH has being doing at home all day. grin

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 19:16:16

I call myself a feminist panda.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 19:18:08

I think all pandas are feminists. Look how grumpy they get about having sex and looking after baby pandas.

I shall now view all offers of home baked fancies with some suspicion.

I saw pandas at the zoo. They spend most of the year apart, only meeting for a quick shag. They also spend most of their lives asleep on a shelf

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 19:23:22

<wipes tears from eyes> honestly this thread has been the most fun I've had on mumsnet in ages. like the old days I tell ya.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 19:23:57

The parallels are uncanny.

rainrainandmorerain Sat 09-Feb-13 19:24:01

Heh - well, I call myself a feminist quite wholeheartedly - but I am one of those feminists who think it (feminism) can survive as quite a broad church...

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:25:17

HannahsSister40 You are being a bit patronizing now.. angry
Just because people work does not mean they do not "hang out" with their children. People do have holidays,some evenings,days off,weekends and so on.

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 19:26:44

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:29:56

Oh yes, she'd bloody love it if I worked full time! (advertising the empty house on Facebook and shit like that I expect)

badinage Sat 09-Feb-13 19:38:21

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 19:39:12

Those teenage feminist pandas love FB.

badinage Sat 09-Feb-13 19:41:41

Those pandas see feminism as a black and white issue......

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 19:42:50

so many great mn names from this thread.

allpandasarefeminists
dumbfuckbaking
nolemondrizzleforsinglemums
boringbabybasedshit

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:43:04

HannahsSister40 Do you work at all?

LineRunner Sat 09-Feb-13 19:45:01

hannah thinks that working would make her DD have FB wreckage parties and that's why panda feminism is all wrong.

FantasticMax Sat 09-Feb-13 19:45:23

I work 4 days a week, DD is in nursery for long days but DH is a teacher so she's only in term time. It's not ideal but it works for us. I could give up work and we could change our lifestyle but I don't want to. I grew up in a household where money was always tight and I hated it. I don't want the same for my DD.

Plus, although I'm happily married I don't want to ever be in a position that if my marriage broke down I couldn't support myself or DD. I've seen enough threads on here to know it can and does go tits up, often.

I'm happy for SAHM who enjoy their lifestyle. It's just not for me.

anotheryearolder Sat 09-Feb-13 19:45:53

Baffled by hannahs comments
I have shared the care of my DC for the past 18 years with DH - we are both in senior roles .
Most of my friends do to some extent- I dont know any parents who are in the dont see my children when they are awake scenario that she describes.
Mind you my teenagers are not always awake until midday - does that count?grin

flattyre Sat 09-Feb-13 19:48:01

The problem with the lemon drizzle cake seems to be that when made by SAHMs these are often the same people who parent by the book, so when 'dumb fuck baking' leave out the decent stuff and the cake tastes like arse.

Fails to acknowledge thread is not really about cake

williaminajetfighter Sat 09-Feb-13 19:48:57

A bit of a smuggles thread, me thinks!

OP why don't you drop your friends who work and just swap recipes and buy Cath Kidston home accessories with the other SAHM friends! Then you won't have to hear about the RW at all!!

scarlettsmummy2 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:49:21

I work part time, but I don't need to. I do it because I find being at home mind numbingly boring and need more stimulation. I moan about my job sometimes too but I know the alternative is less desirable.

badinage Sat 09-Feb-13 19:51:33

I hear Pandas are fond of tasting eachother's arses. They don't care much for cake though.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 19:58:01

flat tyre I actually think lemon drizzle cake is massively over rated, in rhe same middle class kind of way as futons, smoked salmon and Jane austen.

A clementine cake is far superior, alrhough again, I'm not sure it is allowable for single parents/ working mums.....how about coffee and walnut?

edwinbear Sat 09-Feb-13 19:58:42

My mum was a SAHM for 35 years. 6 months before he died, my dad ran off with another woman and changed his will to leave the lot to his mistress. My mum lost her home, their life savings, dad had even written to his pension trustees to request his mistress receive the widows pension. A 3 year legal battle resulting in a solicitors bill of tens of thousands of pounds saw mum left with 50% of a pension. This is one of the reasons that I will never rely on a man for money, as well as the fact I love my job and would be bored senseless being at home all day. But each to their own.

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 19:59:59

Working is nothing to be ashamed about. You have to work to live. Unfortunately people are getting to used to hand outs or top ups. I AM NOT slagging of benefits for a second!! They are needed as a safety net to help stop poverty and of course should always be around. However too many people use them these days to stay at home and then go about stating how working mums should be ashamed for leaving their poor children in day care..
People are really struggling to find work at the moment and I am so grateful I have my full time job and my husband has his. It must be horrible the worry of cutting the household income now more than ever with all the cuts coming in sad
If we did not have savings I would be crapping it by now. Jobs are going daily by very high numbers more so in the public sector where both me and my DH work. It is scary times. You do not know what is around the bend so whilst you sit there judging everyone else just remember you might actually have to leave your children one day to work all week for your money.

anotheryearolder Sat 09-Feb-13 20:01:36

BAD Carrot cake over lemon drizzle any day !

TheFallenMadonna Sat 09-Feb-13 20:03:11

I made a lemon drizzle cake the other day. And then I took it to work to share with my colleagues, leaving my poor children deprived, both of hanging out with me, and home baking.

Why did I even have children... sad

flattyre Sat 09-Feb-13 20:03:35

We may indeed be allowed coffee and walnut, BigAudioDynamite, after all without the extra caffeine from the coffee we may not be able to balance our blackberries on our noses, whilst changing doing the one nappy change a week we have to for out kids we only see for 27 minutes on a Sunday.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:05:06

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

flattyre Sat 09-Feb-13 20:07:41

Oh my goodness Hannah, I was doubting you were for real but questioning such a sad story is plain nasty.

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 20:08:39

I took it that her mum and dad got divorced Hannahs. And I find your comment rude.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:09:26

Hannah, you may not believe that one example, but may I reassure you, as a family lawyer, there are PLENTY of women left up financial shit creek without a paddle because their Big Daddy Megabucks was perhaps not quite as signed up to the notion of until Death Do They Part as they had thought.

<goes back to bamboo shoots>

PickledInAPearTree Sat 09-Feb-13 20:11:04

Totally agree Spero.

I work in pensions. See similar.

anotheryearolder Sat 09-Feb-13 20:12:57

Why Hannah? because it doesnt fit with your happyeverafter notions of life?
Keep an open mind - good advice for any women- wohm or sahm

HomeEcoGnomist Sat 09-Feb-13 20:13:11

Hannah - still hoping you will answer MY question actually: how do you determine whether a family needs 2 incomes to justify both parents going out to work? Do you have a checklist I can refer to?

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:13:35

Most women five years after a divorce are significantly worse off than when they were married. Most men however have recovered their financial position or are doing better.

Why? Because most men work in jobs that pay better than most women. So stick that in your lemon drizzle and smoke it.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:14:16

It's not nasty, I'm questioning the legalities. If they were married, which I'm assuming they were, she'd be entitled to her half of the house at the very least. As an unemployed person I can't see how she'd have ended up with tens of thousands of debt and only half a pension! The default setting would be house transferred to her after his death. The only exception would be if they hadn't married or the house was in his name alone.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:15:26

O and because most women get left with the children. But that's ok, because that is the 'ideal' for children isn't it?

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:16:05

there is no judge on the planet who would award the half of the house which she legally owns to a mistress he's had for 6 months!

MidnightMasquerader Sat 09-Feb-13 20:16:19

And the award for the most navel-gazing thread of the year goes to....

Ta da... The OP.

You're very lucky that you found a second 'job' that you're good at, that you find rewarding, stimulating and most importantly, genuinely enjoyable.

I always find it slightly amazing that people seem to think that all women are cut out for full time motherhood. I mean ... why would they be? It's not as if everyone on earth would be a good architect or a good teacher, or a good chef.

So why do some people think every women will be amazingly good at motherhood and find it inherently wonderful? I honestly think it takes a rather incredible amount of blinkered, unquestioning lack of analysis to reach such a stand point (but then again, the original post delivers this in spades).

Slightly odd for someone who describes themselves as 'your typical middle class, highly-educated, driven woman'... grin

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:17:16

Well hold onto your hats sahm ladies because the gov is slashing all public funding for most family cases. Arguing in court over your finances will involve hefty legal fees or you representing yourself.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:18:09

How much is enough to give up work?
How Long is a piece of string?
It depends on where you live, your outgoings, number of children etc etc.. Best worked out with a spreadsheet and calculator.

flattyre Sat 09-Feb-13 20:18:20

He had changed his will, presumably they were divorced, and after '35 years of marriage' it's reasonable to expect that Edwina and any siblings were no longer dependents.

Shenanagins Sat 09-Feb-13 20:18:22

I'm confused now, as a wohm who dares to enjoy work, am i allowed lemon drizzle cake or not?

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 20:18:24

Hannah, have you ever heard of the saying "when you're in a hole, stop digging"?

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:19:21

Hannah, you are missing the point. Pick apart one story all you like but you have to accept BECAUSE IT IS TRUE that a lot sahms who lost or severely compromised their earning capacities are going to get a nasty shock if their relationships are not future proof.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:20:15

Shenanigans, step AWAY from the lemon drizzle, you don't know where it's been.

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 20:20:56

spero - agree. I was one. Thought I was ok we'd be together forever and all that hearts and flowers crap. But life snuck up and kicked me in the banjoolies and here I am.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:21:23

Reality check spero: nobody has a future proof life, whether sahm, wohm or panda.

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 20:23:09

Hannahs - you're a helluva lot more future proofed if you have your own job, your own earning capacity and your own pension than if you've given it all up and are relying on a man. Taking yourself out of the job market in this current climate could make it difficult to get another job. You know, if life kicks you in the banjoolies and you need one in a hurry.

Chubfuddler Sat 09-Feb-13 20:23:49

It's a damned good job I didn't give up work when me working was more or less optional.

Because suddenly after 12 years of marriage I am a single parent, and it's not optional at all.

Death, divorce and disaster. Any one could strike any one of us any moment. Just saying.

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:24:29

Hannah do you intend to work when your children are at school? Left home? Any time of your life? Do you have a line of work you are trained in ?
Does your partner/husband work?
Sorry if you have already answered I cannot seem to find them.

No agree, but you can take certain courses of action, do certain things, to help protect your future, to reduce the risk. Does your dh pay into a pension? Do you have insurance? Are you paying or have you paid your mortgage off? If so, why did you bother when you simply can't future proof

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:27:18

Er, that is precisely my point Hannah? I have been kicked in the teeth quite enough by good old reality to know that we ALL need to protect ourselves.

So the smug, smug, smuggery of a lot of these 'o my husbands got such a big wallet' type threads is also tempered by concern for these women. Are they really sure that compromising their future earning capacity to such a degree is safe?

noviceoftheday Sat 09-Feb-13 20:28:32

Hannah, yes sounds good, but we don't have the kind of jobs that go well with doing "reduced hours". Its actually less stressful to do 5 days (I know because I have done both 3 days and 4 days) as mine is client facing and dh does deals/mergers & acquisitions. We both like "hanging out" with our kids unless you also privately think that people like us don't love our children as much as you love yours or love them less than you love yours? ..

flattyre Sat 09-Feb-13 20:31:55

Novice I am in absolute agreement with you - also a client facing role and five days much easier to manage than PT, and less stressful.

BsshBossh Sat 09-Feb-13 20:32:15

OP I get where you're coming from having been SAHM, WOHM and WFHM (work from home) but you sound very smug and self-centered.

HomeEcoGnomist Sat 09-Feb-13 20:33:08

Er, thanks Hannah - but that's kind of my point. How on earth do you have the insight into anyone's life/finances/circumstances to be in a position to judge whether both parents have to work? But I guess you are happy enough to judge that based on your own version of the perfect family life

I really hope you don't have to eat lemon drizzle humble pie any time because your own circumstances take a turn for the worst and force you to be an Inferior Parent who WOH

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:36:30

I do work, but only 2 days, so always refer to myself as a sahm.
I had 15 years of full time work and savings behind me before I became a sahm. I've always paid into a pension. My name is on the house too, which is two thirds of the way to being paid off. Any more questions?

Viviennemary Sat 09-Feb-13 20:37:13

I think these things do have to be considered. It's all very well to be completely dependent on a man who earns lots of money and say you are set up for life. Well you are not I'm afraid. Perhaps the maintenance will be generous whilst the children are still dependents but after that well I think people are more or less on their own. It might never happen to you and I hope it doesn't but it certainly happens to some people.

So you've made attempts to future proof thrn

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:38:15

and yes my husband works and is well paid.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:38:23

Well jolly well done you. Just spare a thought for the many, many women who are not in such a favoured position.

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:38:42

So you work because you want to. Not because you have to?

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 20:39:09

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

anotheryearolder Sat 09-Feb-13 20:41:06

Hannah I work 3 days a week - I dont call myself a SAHMconfused

That can't possibly be to me unless your fingers are smoking grin

Chubfuddler Sat 09-Feb-13 20:41:38

Any more questions?

So many, but they'd get deleted.

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:41:51

Lol, I'm drowning in hypocrisy, double standards and irony!

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 09-Feb-13 20:42:41

Evening all. We'd just like to say we're nodding approvingly at the general PARD on this thread (and we're loving TUBE).

But, acronyms aside, there is some "ahem-ing" we need to do at the personal attacks on here. Please do remember personal attacks are against site rules; feel free to attack the post (rather than the poster) instead, though.

Also wanted to give a 5* star rating to Pagwatch's post below. It kinda sums up where we stand over in MNHQ, too...

Pagwatch

Ashoething

Fwiw i think the bash and counter bash about sahm/wohm seems to produce posts of jaw dropping thickness, sometimes from even normal sensible posters.

Most people arn't boring or twee or selfish or brilliant or funny or dull - especially dull - because of how they spend their day.

My friends are a pretty even split between sahms and WOHMs. They are great and pretty similar in the things that matter - funny, responsible, interesting, kind, smart.

I don't understand the animosity and I don't understand the trotting out of clichés which, if men used them about women, we would think they were utter arseholes.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:43:40

I am not sure who you are accusing of drowning you in hypocrisy and double standards, unless you are getting confused between that and the truth.

Dereksmalls Sat 09-Feb-13 20:45:08

Can't be bothered wading through 15 pages but I'll a FT WOHM and the life the OPs describes is nothing like mine. DH and I share all the work, I cook far more now than I ever have before, see the kids loads. My life works for me and I feel very lucky. If anyone wants to sound off to me, I'm ready to listen because that's the least I can do to help.

sunshine401 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:45:39

Yes I do think you actually do not know what you mean yourself. This has been a long non thread. sad I thought you were being serious at first but clearly not.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 20:46:41

<faints>

You are wise Paggy. I sometimes find it difficult to believe you're a sahm

What on earth is pard and tube anyway
Dwta
(Down with the acronyms)

earlierintheweek Sat 09-Feb-13 20:49:54

I am sorry Olivia. blush I feel like I've been told off. I've never been deleted before

anotheryearolder Sat 09-Feb-13 20:50:01

Not sure why you think you are drowning in hypocrisy,double standards and irony ??confused

Is it because I only work 3 days a week - umm as a midwife that equates to 37.5 hours = fulltime

Dereksmalls Sat 09-Feb-13 20:50:55

Actually, the other reason I haven't read it is because it's bound to have descended into a pointless bun fight, the like of which I never observe before SAHMs and WOHMs in RL. I just felt the need to say that WOH doesn't have to follow the pattern the OP describes and therefore doesn't have to be so "crazy"

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 09-Feb-13 20:51:20

SPBInDisguise

You are wise Paggy. I sometimes find it difficult to believe you're a sahm

Norty. grin

HannahsSister40 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:55:32

not engaging. It's like being 14 again surrounded by a load of angry girls repeating the same crap ad Infinitum without actually listening. The number of times I've been deliberately misinterpreted on this thread is depressingly predictable l.

Spero Sat 09-Feb-13 20:57:27

Bye Hannah. Sorry you feel that way but at an utter loss to understand why.

Hannah just for the record all I meant by my latest comment was you'd posted ten secs after me but it looked as though you'd replied to me, which is pretty impossible. I wasn't being nasty. Too stuffed to be nasty

anotheryearolder Sat 09-Feb-13 21:00:16

I truly dont understand what you mean by your hypocrisy,irony and double standards post *hannah

Flounce if you must or maybe explain what you mean ???

Samnella Sat 09-Feb-13 21:00:30

Yabu but you have probably gathered that by now grin

I know what you mean about the difficulties in balancing everything and wondering if its worthwhile. But its too complex to have a one size fits all approach. I don't need to work in the financial sense but I do because;1. I hated being a SAHM and the imbalance it created in my relationship.2. I like my job. 3. I want to be financially independent. 4. I don't find the play dough head space is for me. I just end up sitting in a corner rocking and shouting at my children grin believe me it ain't pretty. 5. I want a pension. 6. I want DD to associate women with going to work and therefore wanting to aspire to more than being at home. But these are all personal opinions. They are not by any means right for all. I could just as easily have said I want to be at home and given valid but opposing opinions.

I have been a WOHM and SAHM and there are compromises on both sides. Funnily enough I have been talking to DH tonight and we acknowledge that both of us working has some detrimental effect on our children. DD (yr 2) is definitely not doing so well at school right now and I would be foolish to think the 3 days where she is in school from 7.45 to 6 don't have some role. DS is way behind in reception as I cannot spend as much time as I would like with him. Equally, I am happier than I ever was as a SAHM and I am not going to compromise that just so my children do slightly better at school. A better answer would be to find a work around solution where we can spend more time with the DCs on school work or we can reduce the length of their days in some way . My own feelings are they will reach their own level at some point anyway.

Pagwatch Sat 09-Feb-13 21:01:09

grin grin

I know SPB. Sometimes I just have to fucking bake to make it all seem real.

BigAudioDynamite Sat 09-Feb-13 21:02:23

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 21:05:08

What?? Nooooo you di-int! You can't delete me!

Don't you know who I am? <cats bum face at MNHQ>

Ooh ooh what did you say

Orr...maybe not grin

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 21:14:31

well...as far as I was concerned it was probably my most insightful post ever apart from...

"well to be fair it's easier to knit when you haven't got a penis getting all caught up in your yarn". nevergoogle, 2013. (you can put that in the next book HQ) wink

Why was that deleted? Nt a personal attack

nevergoogle Sat 09-Feb-13 21:24:11

nooo, that's now my most insightful post on this thread. the other having been deleted.