To think that many parents believe their kids can do no wrong?

(110 Posts)
superstarheartbreaker Fri 08-Feb-13 21:10:58

Of course it's natural to think that our children are wonderful and amazing but I work in a school, I have done teacher training and I am amazed at how many parents cannot believe that their children are merely human and therefore just as capable of wrong doing as the next child.
So far I have had a mother complaining that I 'pick' on her child. To which I replied that if her offspring wasn't so badly behaved then I wouldn't have to discipline her.
I sent someone out for throwing a major sulk when I asked her to do some work and to get her feet off the table (she wouldn't). Her mother has now insisted that she no longer comes to my tutorial.
I am constantly hearing stories about parents who refuse to acknowledge the wrongdoings of their young.
Surely we do our kids a great disservice by NOT bollicking them when they have done wrong or by not acknowledging that are even capable of wrong doing in the first place?

Plus I also think that as a generation we are all very confused as to how best discipline our included. The consistency thing...I'm no expert.

mumzy Fri 08-Feb-13 21:17:41
AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 21:19:55

The version the parent will hear is going to be different to what actually happened, whatever the age.

And most parents will try to be objective in a situation where it's nigh on impossible to be objective.

If I genuinely thought a teacher was being unfair to DD I would say something, why wouldn't I? That wouldn't mean I wasn't acknowledging she can be a PITA, but who else should she turn to if she was having problems at school with a teacher?

It would also depend on what you mean by a bollocking? That to me would be you bawling them out.

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 21:20:58

Tends to swing two ways , 10% of the 'my precious can do no wrong' 10% of the 'I really couldnt give a shit' and 80% reasonably normal co-operative and engaged parents.

I dont knowwhats worse, the "dont give a shits" or the "my precious" ones. My precious I think as they tend to suck the life blood out of you with their micro managing every aspect - at least the I dont give a shit let you get on with the job in hand.

Doogle2 Fri 08-Feb-13 21:24:06

YANBU. I have a friend who just doesn't see the mistakes her children make. There always seems to be a lot of incidents involving them but it is never their fault. Always the victim. I've seen how her children act when she isn't there and I was shocked.

echt Fri 08-Feb-13 21:24:25

I find that most parents are very supportive of school actions, but the ones who aren't challenge every single thing the school does, take up lots of time with lengthy meetings, and then, unsurprisingly, their DC spicks up on the support for their behaviour and become an entitled little princ(ess).

These are the ones you remember.

AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 21:25:07

Not sure what I think about the article in the link.

I wouldn't be happy my DC being branded a racist, it's such a serious thing with wide reaching consequences, and it sounds like only the people who were there could make a judgement call on what he actually did/meant by it.

I respect most teachers, but I wouldn't automatically take their word over the word of my DC.

Loving the double newspaper sad face photo though grin

ClippedPhoenix Fri 08-Feb-13 21:25:44

I also work in the childcare industry and I just think to myself blimey what are you bringing up then.

When in your care you can only do what you know to be right and detatch.

YANBU. I am a parent, not a teacher, but I see more and more of this happening. Protecting a child from the consequences of their actions is not good parenting.

OxInABox Fri 08-Feb-13 21:28:47

Gosh, it really is outrageous that that boy's father thinks he didn't do anything racist. Also, the boy's story sounds like a load of bullshit - I've heard similar silly "But I didn't do it! I was really doing this incredibly specific thing which I've thought up in detail after the event, in a misguided attempt to excuse myself from having done something embarrassing!" stories before.

Nevertheless, the boy's father is reasonable in demanding answers about the sudden, unexplained escalation of the punishment - it was originally only a two-hour detention and not an exclusion for the day. Why the change?

echt Fri 08-Feb-13 21:31:50

How is making a Hitler salute "racist"? Unless the teacher was Jewish, this is not possible and I would support the parents in contesting the suspension on those grounds. By all means punish for cheeking a teacher, but the parents could win on this because of ill-defined reasons on the part of the school.

marriedinwhite Fri 08-Feb-13 21:35:48

Aah in my eyes my DC are perfect.

Reasons I removed dd from a secondary school after two years. PE teacher ignored the medical advice of a consultant surgeon and when I challenged was bawled out because I challenged. Then we had the dreadful disruptive behaviour of five or six girls who diluted learning and who had excuse after excuse made for them - they then beat up another girl and set fire to part of the school and were not permanently excluded. Then we had the maths teacher who couldn't teach and we spent £700 on a private tutor. Then we had the day when dd was taken ill and reported it to a teacher and was told to stop making a fuss and go to the toilet where she collapsed and fainted and the teacher didn't raise any alarm when she didn't return; the next teacher didn't raise any alarm when she wasn't at the next lesson and she was found groaning by a friend at the start of break. And even then it was all a "bother" for the school.

Fuck me - yes some parents do expect too much don't they. So glad we had enough money to move her to the independent sector. That by the way was an Ofstsed Outstanding top 100 school - hahahahahahahahahaha. Standards - I don't think so.

Education and its standards in the UK need a root and branch sort out afaic. Long live Gove and the return of high standards.

marriedinwhite Fri 08-Feb-13 21:36:53

And actually OP as an educated teacher perhaps you would care to note that I am not a goat and I do not have kids. I have children. Highest common denominator amongst what should be a respected profession and all that eh!

AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 21:37:33

That's saying that a nazi salute can always be taken as racist, but it can be meant as a general 'you're a fascist' action echt, without necessarily directly linking it to what the nazis stood for.

And I would say that's true, it's not something I would use, but I could imagine a DH doing it with a smile on his face to his DW if she was ordering him to do something IYSWIM?

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 21:38:28

How is making a Hitler salute "racist"? Unless the teacher was Jewish, this is not possible

Unless the teacher is a black, homosexual, disabled gypsy perhaps?.

The Third Reich stood fora lot more than hatred of Jews

superstarheartbreaker Fri 08-Feb-13 21:46:54

I do believe that unreasonable discipline should be challenged of course but I hardly think that sending a child to time out where they can get space to cool down warrents taking them away from an important bit of education. I guess it is always the tricky ones I remember!

AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 21:47:44

But how likely is it that the lad fully understood the complex political and moral issues wound up in that one action Holly?

Isn't it more likely that he'd have a cursery knowledge of WWII and not know how offensive his actions were because he was just being an idiot and playing to the class?

Some 14 YOs are idiots, that doesn't mean they're racist or should be denied an education because of it.

OxInABox Fri 08-Feb-13 21:49:16

I'm Jewish, so that alters my perspective somewhat...

superstarheartbreaker Fri 08-Feb-13 21:50:14

I went to school in the independant sector marriedinwhite and many of the children were adly behaved. I would also like to point out that many of the parents whose little children can do no wrong come from very well off familes.
I don't think it matters if you are talking about children from state or private education. There is a certain type who is scared of discipline irrespective of socio-economic background. I call it a cotton wool complex.

Helltotheno Fri 08-Feb-13 21:52:55

YANBU at all OP. It also makes it very difficult to deal with a parent when there is an issue at school involving their child; basically forget ever solving an issue like that without falling out, and at this point, I'll take falling out thanks. Some people are incredibly deluded about their children.

At my children's state primary school they study WWII in Y6. My 12 y old and 10 y old would both understand the significance of that gesture.

OxInABox Fri 08-Feb-13 21:55:39

marriedinwhite - I actually had a similar experience to your DD. I was physically assaulted by one of my primary school teachers who took a (perhaps rational - I was one of those kids who would point out her spelling mistakes) dislike to me. I'm not talking a slap - I'm talking the full-on 'grab by scruff of neck and shake for five minutes while screaming'.

So I got taken out of that school after my (not inconsiderably scary) DF marched in and belaboured the headmaster at length, and was lucky enough to get sent to private school at a time when impecunious parents could get assistance for that sort of thing.

Incidentally, I always felt my DF gave that particular head teacher a rough time. He was a good guy and I remember wanting to grow a big beard like the one he had.

marriedinwhite Fri 08-Feb-13 22:00:58

OxINABox I don't think the two situations are in the least similar. My daughter was being literally crushed and is quiet, polite and compliant. She has blossomed in a much kinder and much more sensible environment. I'm not talking about a tiresome child who deserved it; I am talking about serious safeguarding issues and negligence that required disciplinary action against some staff.

echt Fri 08-Feb-13 22:03:14

Good point, HollyBerryBush.

I see what you're say ZigZag, but I was disputing the grounds of the school's accusations. They were factually wrong. FWIW, I'd love to see that kid's feet not touch the ground, but the school has to get it right or it discredits genuine claims of racist behaviour.

AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 22:06:06

I know my 12 YO DD would understand, or at least think about, what was behind a salute associated with the nazis ThreeB.

But you can't say that's the case with this lad, I would say it's quite common for children to say/do things they've seen without knowing fully what they're doing.

I know I have, and DD comes home from school saying other DC have said things it's obvious they don't know what they mean (from using it in the wrong context/not getting the wording quite right etc).

OxInABox Fri 08-Feb-13 22:08:27

Whatever, marriedinwhite - I was trying to agree with you, I made a self-deprecating remark about my own behaviour, and you have used it as an excuse to become tetchy, defensive, and above all to say I deserved to be assaulted.

Fucking hell.

AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 22:09:45

Yeah, he should be pulled up on cheeking the teacher back echt, definitely.

But I would worry about any DC being branded a racist, and this following them, when what happened is a matter of interpretation or one persons word against another.

He might be a total horror, or the teacher might be at the end of their tether and didn't handle it well, you can't know.

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 22:10:05

We've been side tracked on a media link - any parent worth their salt would have accepted the initial detention and realised their child was at best inappropriate.

By kicking up a kerfuffle they have ultimately condoned their 14yo childs deliberately provocative behaviour, sought to undermine the school and gain publicity. Although why they should want to besplattered all over the press is beyond me.

AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 22:10:45

And I meant to say that you shouldn't take one persons word over another just because of the job they do, or discount the other persons word because of their young age.

marriedinwhite Fri 08-Feb-13 22:11:02

Sorry InABox perhaps I misinterpreted what you said but it came across as though my dd deserved what she suffered because she had forthright parents.

I totally agree with what HollyBerryBush said above. Why take it to the papers?

It's just attention-seeking, which is probably where their son learnt it from (if we're giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he was just being a PITA rather than deliberately comparing the teacher to a Nazi).

OxInABox Fri 08-Feb-13 22:18:37

What? No! Wow! In that case we're mutually offended over the same misinterpretation - you were angry because you think I think your DD deserved it, and I was angry because I thought you thought I deserved it.

No. Best of luck to your DD in private education - it was a world of difference for me and I hope it's doing the same for her.

I do apologise, both for appearing to trivialise your DD's situation and for the post before this one.

marriedinwhite Fri 08-Feb-13 22:22:25

Pax smile

AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 22:26:25

There's no way I would go along with my DD being punished for being a racist Holly.

No way.

I would genuinely think she wasn't, because what I know of her doesn't add up to anything like being racist in her views, and if I thought that, why should I just shut up and let such an unfair portrait of her be officially sanctioned by her school?

So everyone else would gang up on her and exclude her thinking it was OK because she was racist scum.

Yfronts Fri 08-Feb-13 22:27:05

Working with kids put me off having children for years! Had my own now and they are lovely. Not perfect of course but well behaved still. As long as they are treated fairly by a teacher, I can't see the problem. It's not acceptable to have feet on tables

HollyBerryBush Fri 08-Feb-13 22:37:40

There's no way I would go along with my DD being punished for being a racist Holly.

While the detention was initally postponed, officials later contacted his family to say Ben had to serve his punishment, despite the head teacher, Matthew Munro, admitting that the school was prepared to drop its claims that the incident was racist.

So the school stepped down on the racism almost immediately - so again at best the child was deliberately underminining, a teacher and yet the parents have this need to go to the press? the child was being a disruptive influence. Sometimes parents just need to see their off spring are inappropriate - unless of course this a standard greeting within the Munro household?

Of course there will be poor literacy within the reporting leading to ambiguity in the whole chain of events.

I've always taken the stance that I may not agree with teachers, or school policy, but I dont undermine it in front of my child - I do make waves at times behind closed doors, but it is never discussed with my child/ren. Hence I have a very good relationship with all the schools my children attend.

AgentZigzag Fri 08-Feb-13 22:48:10

I would discuss what I thought and how I felt about the school and teachers with my DD Holly.

It's not that I would take any shit from DD, I'm relatively realistic about her, but ultimately I'm on her side, and she knows that.

I would never go along with her being cheeky to a teacher or misbehaving at school, so it'd be her tough luck if she was pulled up on playing up in a class (if I'm on her side, it's good for her bad behaviour to be picked up on).

But introducing the racist tarring is a step above a normal answering back from a DC, and like bullying, shouldn't be used lightly.

Doesn't it worry you that they dropped the racist claim so quickly? If it was that tentative a link, why bring it up in the first place? It can't be as cut and dry as they make out.

And if someone came down to a conclusion that my DD was racist, rather than thinking it through and punishing her for what definitely happened (being disrespectful towards a teacher), then I'd have something to say, yes.

timidviper Fri 08-Feb-13 22:57:39

I think most things in life swing, like a pendulum, from one extreme to the other and I think, I hope, we must be at the extreme of the world revolving around children / children can do no wrong.

superstarheartbreaker Fri 08-Feb-13 23:01:33

I think children are rather prone to making mistakes and we as adults should guide them. Having said that I just rebelled from any good guidance my poor folks had to offer. sad

conkercon Fri 08-Feb-13 23:37:31

Not sure that many parents think their child can do no wrong but some do. I had the misfortune to be quite good friends with one mum who though none of her children could do no wrong.

There was one incident when the boys were about 9 when she phoned me to tell me that my son had punched her son in the face and he had a split lip and it was for no reason. I was absoloutely mortified, apologised profusely and said I would speak to my DS. He of course had a slightly different story.

At my suggestion we sat the boys down to try and get to the truth (although she was not that keen she agreed to it) and it transpired that yes my son had punched him but her DS was pulling him up from his seat by his hair (it was relatively long at the time but that is another story) after calling him names in the playground etc. Her son admitted what he had done. She kind of insinuated that well my son should get his hair cut.......but we made them shake hands and I hoped that she had learned a lesson in that there are two sides to every story.

A few weeks later her DS punched mine in the stomach. This was witnessed by three other children and an adult. There was no reason for it and he denied doing it despite the witnessess. His mother did not believe the three other children or the adult and totally believed her son.

Needless to say we are ex friends.

dayshiftdoris Sat 09-Feb-13 01:21:54

And then there is me grin

I asked a school to risk assess my son and I wrote to the governors to request that a behaviour management plan was put in place ASAP.

The SENCO laughed at me when I said the risk assessment was necessary... he had already kicked a teacher and was lashing out at children EVERY day at that point...

It was another 5 months of almost daily incidents before a risk assessment was put into place - 3 months after a group of professionals told them to.

Now he's in a school with a decent approach to discipline and his ASD... he was risk assessed before being allowed on school property.

Teacher training does not make you an expert on behaviour management - how much actual teaching hours do you get on that and additional needs during said training? Not much I am lead to believe...
And even if you have good personal classroom management the ethos of the school is vital to the discipline within it.

I would question if you have a) had much support from the school over these allegations from parents and b) critically reflected upon your own practice in order to identify areas that need change

Having a child with challenging behaviours is hard work at home, he's a friggin nightmare for teachers - some can manage him 90% of the time, others 10% of the time - often its approach that makes the difference however at the school I mention above - all of the teachers could only manage him for about 10% of the time because their support was non-existent...
His current school - most of the teachers can manage him 90% of the time and when it became apparently that staff were struggling in certain lessons senior management observed the lesson... some were merely time of day, change in teacher but with a couple of others... well he was moved out their lessons and educated elsewhere in the school. They are not bad teachers but their approach did not stand up to the challenging behaviour my son presents with yet I know that they have other 'tricky' children that they do very well with.

Telling a parent that if their child was better behaved then you wouldnt have to tell them off is not very professional... Much better to have told the parent the level of behaviour that is expected and explained how her DD did not meet that expectation, how it was dealt with in line with school policy and inviting her to discuss the ways in which you both could work together to prevent such a thing re-occuring...

Ofcourse they might just tell you to 'fuck off' but then that is whole different issue which then again needs to be dealt with at different level... kept seperate from the behaviour issues from the child and even if parents dont see the issue with their children's behaviour the school should have & follow robust procedures and exclude if necessary.
You see there is a tendency in schools to do something else - expect a type of behaviour from certain children according to their parents / circumstances... it's utterly infuriating when you are trying to teach a child best behaviour and they witness inequitable approaches...

AgentZigzag Sat 09-Feb-13 01:33:44

That's a difficult position for you to be in dayshift, but I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect all the teachers to be able to deal with every level of disruptive behaviour possible from an under 16 YO.

They're teachers, not trained mediators or martial arts masters, maintaining their authority is a big part of teaching, but I feel for them if they're being used to buffer disruptive behaviour (whatever it's origin) just because of a lack of funds for more appropriate alternatives (for eg).

AgentZigzag Sat 09-Feb-13 01:34:47

And I feel sorry for you being forced to fight for your DS like that, I meant to say smile

piprabbit Sat 09-Feb-13 01:44:21

I seem to remember going to school in an atmosphere where most parents would assume the teacher was right and punishments went unchallenged most of the time.

But I don't think the school usually spoke to the parent and nor did the children. Most discipline happened within school hours, the children complied and then it was all over until next time.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sat 09-Feb-13 05:47:30

A post typical of someone who extrapolates one across the whole. Pointless.
My experiences of private edicstion are shocking but does that mean the private sector as a whole is to be damned? No.
And as for you comments about Gove..... biscuit

Mosschopz Sat 09-Feb-13 06:47:02

The nazi salute was insensitive and his conduct was disruptive and undermining of the tracher's authority, I'd have given him a detention (teacher)...but racist? I think the school made a lot of work for itself by labelling it such. It's stupid, immature, offensive and insensitive and yes could be seen by some as racist but parents will often hear 'my son/daughter is being accused of being a rscist' which only inflames the situation.

The only kids we have issues with are the ones whose parents 'back' them every time or aren't remotely interested in them.

Mawgatron Sat 09-Feb-13 07:40:11

I suspect married in white doesn't work in a school , otherwise she wouldn't be singing Goves' praises.
And for what it's worth, most independent schools (I went to one) either don't allow difficult students in, or expel them and leave them with no option but to go to state school, so they don't necessarily have the same problems to deal with.
Good for you being able to afford to send your child to a private school. I hate to break it to you, but the incident you describe could have just as easily happened there too.
I work in a state school as an English teacher, and we have a dedicated attendance officer who picks up if a student is missing after attending earlier in the day, and goes to find them, calls home etc.
I try to teach my students to be respectful, don't raise my voice at them (another school policy), and when I bollock them, I do it in a restrained and appropriate way. But I still call it a bollocking! Sometimes students need to be spoken to rationally about their behaviour, and generally they respond really positively. However, when you have a student calling people faggots repeatedly in a really aggressive way, and their parent defends them and actually blames you for making a big deal of it, yes it is infuriating. Some parents need to see the truth about their darling children.

ChestyLeRoux Sat 09-Feb-13 08:01:19

I have found it to be the other way round and the first question parents usually ask is has their child been good/well behaved.

Eebahgum Sat 09-Feb-13 08:22:41

marriedinwhite you always seem to pop up on these school based threads, telling the same story about how badly your daughter was treated at a state school which was outstanding & using this as some kind of indicator that all state schools are shit. I am sorry for your daughters experiences & agree that if she was my child I would have moved to a different school, but 'outstanding' means 'good test results' and very little else. There are many, many schools that you could have moved her to in the state sector (some not even outstanding!) which would have been far better at caring for your daughter. I think your comments to oxinabox were horrifically offensive. Oh, and Michael Gove is not (as you seem to think) the saviour of state education. He is a dick. X

Maria33 Sat 09-Feb-13 08:23:12

Re the nazi salute not being racist-
I'm a secondary teacher and some boys (it does seem to be a male thing?) draw swastickas or do the nazi salute and I always take it very seriously, not because I think that they are necessarily racist, but because they need to understand that these are symbols of racism and that they might be perceived as racist if they use them humorously. Kids like to push boundaries and need to learn the implications of their actions whether they meant it that way or not. I'm actually trying to educate them cos that's my job.
Re the internal exclusion meh possibly ott but there could be a more complicated backstory. Re parents who deal with their precious darling getting an internal by printing an article in the Torygraph shock

IAmLouisWalsh Sat 09-Feb-13 09:25:09

I am constantly astounded at the number of parents who say to me 'I know my DC and he/ she never tells lies'. What, at 14 years old? Yeah, right.

I am not saying that all teachers are perfect - far from it. But kids tell half a version of something because they know parents will jump up and down, and then wonder why issues develop.

dayshiftdoris Sat 09-Feb-13 16:54:25

Agent ZigZag I never said that I expected all teachers to manage him but I do expect that a school to strive to keep staff and pupils safe...
Jeez there are days when I can't manage him so IWBU to expect the school too... However if I had a teacher say 'well he needs to learn to behave' (which I have) then my reply would be 'ok this is how I manage him... What do suggest? How can we work together to change this behaviour?'
After 5yrs in the school system my expectations are so low that I am continually surprised that he survives the school day.

Smudging Sat 09-Feb-13 17:05:58

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cory Sat 09-Feb-13 18:38:49

Whether the school was right in interpreting it as a nazi salute or not, the parent who tries to defend it by saying he was merely making fun of the teacher doesn't get a lot of sympathy from me.

If ds did that I'd expect him to be disciplined and after school detention would seem quite reasonable. The boy was only put in the exclusion unit because he repeatedly failed to turn up for his detention- again, I'd expect that to happen to ds too and wouldn't make a fuss.

From the article, you might be justified in thinking that an exclusion unit is some kind of medieval torture cell. All it is, is a classroom where children who for one reason or another cannot be in class, work quietly with a TA and with extra teacher support if they need it. Dd spends most of her time in the exclusion unit atm because she has been ill and isn't doing the same number of GCSEs as the rest of the class. It's not some horrendous place of punishment. The punishment should be the parent's reaction when they find their child has been sent their for misbehaving.

amck5700 Sat 09-Feb-13 18:42:32

The boy in the photo looks guilty as hell imo.

In general I think that I know my kids pretty well and what they are capable of doing. I don't have a problem with them getting reasonable chastisement for bad behaviour.

The only time I have ever complained about a punishment was when my 10 year old missed out on a treat as he had lost Golden Time - he had to sit in the library and copy passages from a book instead of watching a movie.......his crime? He was reading his book while waiting on his maths sheet being collected and before the next piece of work was allocated. This is something that his usual teacher allowed (he is a clever boy and generally finishes first - this stops him distracting other children who may still be working) but the stand-in took exception to this. She told him to move himself down a level when he returned to his class. However, his class teacher had adopted an all or nothing approach, so instead of being docked 5 minutes, he missed out on everything. I thought that was really unfair and complained. The head teacher did respond agreeing that it was an inappropriate punishment, but he never got an apology and had by this time already missed the treat.

marriedinwhite Sat 09-Feb-13 18:46:58

I don't think I have to adjust an attitude in relation to a school that does not deliver what it promised to deliver. I do not think professionals in education should refer to children as baby goats and frankly I don't think Ox's post was entirely sympathetic.

Standards in state schools from what I have seen are utterly dismal and need to be sorted out without further delay.

marriedinwhite Sat 09-Feb-13 18:48:43

And I take it that it isn't offensive to call somebody you have never met a "dick".

cory Sat 09-Feb-13 18:50:14

I do think there are times when you have to tell your child that the school is wrong because not doing so undermines their sense of justice.

I did not do this strongly enough when dd's school decided to disbelieve in her medical diagnosis (despite being fully supplied with medical letters) and forced her through utterly humilating procedures such as having to crawl into the loo, because they would not open up the disabled toilet, as they did not believe she was really in pain and preferred to think she was lazy, or being left alone in the classroom because the rest of her set went upstairs for their maths lessons. I believed (like so many posters) dd was telling half truths until the teacher actually put on her report that she would have done better in maths if she had been able to access the lessons.

This was wrong and I am daily having to deal with a fallout of a child who has been disbelieved and humiliated and would now rather self harm than go to school if she feels she might have to ask an adult for help, because she still feels that it is naughty of her to be ill and helpless. I was a coward and we are all being punished for it. The one thing I can do to help dd make sense of her life is to say "yes, they were wrong, I should have challenged it earlier, I am very sorry".

Having said that, there is no way I am going to let that inform my attitude to ds's detentions for faffing about in class and not doing his homework. He deserves them, I am jolly glad he is getting them, it is in his best interests as well as in the interests of the other children. He knows he can't use his sister's experiences as a get-out card with me.

And if he cheeks teachers, then I will be happy for him to spend his time in the exclusionm unit. I don't see why anyone should have to put up with rudeness, I don't so I don't see why the teachers should.

jamdonut Sat 09-Feb-13 19:32:11

I have only complained once about a detention that was given out to my son.

A letter came to tell me he had a detention the next day for "not staying on task",and the date it was given.

I sent an email to the school saying I would fully support him being given a detention for this reason,except....he wasn't at school on the day in question ( He had been off sick for 2 days )!!!

The teacher apologised to me the following day, at parent consultation evening. Apparently there is another boy with the same ,slightly unusual name in the class, and she had accidently selected the wrong one on the computer!! She was suitably embarrassed, and I just laughed it off!

jamdonut Sat 09-Feb-13 19:35:16

I should add he has never had a detention in his life before, and he was horrified when that letter came!!

countrykitten Sat 09-Feb-13 20:19:41

Marriedinwhite I teach at a top independent and we too call children 'kids'. Not in front of parents

countrykitten Sat 09-Feb-13 20:24:47

And I agree with you that state education is in a mess in that it is suffering from the damage inflicted by successive governments. You should however remember that state teachers are working very hard in often really difficult circumstances and also that some state schools ate genuinely excellent. Although I concur that an OTSTED 'outstanding' means very little.

marriedinwhite Sat 09-Feb-13 20:29:55

The interesting thing though countrykitten was that when dd was at a top state comp although it was a mess and although the teachers were working hard (most of them - they were fab but had the wrong head) it didn't stop the school from constantly asking for donations. It was people like us who could give them but regrettably as they were not listening they lost the opportunity to receive the donations and to keep a child who would have bolstered their results. Rather sad I think.

marriedinwhite Sat 09-Feb-13 20:31:03

And sorry - I just can't stand the term "kids". It's common, sloppy and far too casual. Do you wear slacks grin

FanFuckingTastic Sat 09-Feb-13 20:33:06

Mine is a nightmare, I often have sessions on the phone with DDs teacher commiserating about how naughty she has been that day and we swap horror stories. She regularly tells me she doesn't know how I do it, and that DD is exhausting.

AgentZigzag Sat 09-Feb-13 20:36:52

'The boy in the photo looks guilty as hell imo.'

I can't believe you meant that seriously! shock

If you've invented a gadget that can determine guilt from a photograph, you need to get a patent for it.

How useful that would be for the police?

amck5700 Sat 09-Feb-13 20:43:07

I did mean it seriously, if I can feel my son attempt to sneak up the stairs from 3 rooms away, deciding guilt from a photo is easy peasy grin

I should definitely think about contracting my services smile

rubyredbeau Sat 09-Feb-13 20:46:42

To the "kids" comments it really amazes me how some people go out of their way to be offended !!

countrykitten Sat 09-Feb-13 20:46:59

Marriedinwhite the 'kids' I teach do not have the sort of parents who would ever use the term 'common' in such a way. Are you Hyacinch Bouquet?

IAmLouisWalsh Sat 09-Feb-13 20:48:00

Kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids

Fuck me, I am childish sometimes

marriedinwhite Sat 09-Feb-13 20:50:18

If you teach at a top indy, you might be teaching my dc. You have no idea what the parents might say in private or not to teachers

rubyredbeau Sat 09-Feb-13 20:50:30

smile @ iamlouiswalsh

echt Sat 09-Feb-13 20:50:53

I agree with amck700. That photo is really apt unfortunate and makes the boy look like Central Casting's nasty kid stereotype.

For comparison, look at any article in the guardian that features Gove. Without fail they have a pic which makes him look a right tit. Not difficult, I realise.

AgentZigzag Sat 09-Feb-13 20:51:24

grin Yeah, agree with the 'I know something's not quite right' intuition. What was the intention of his sneaking?

But it's those kinds of snap judgments that can ruin a persons life, 'You look like a criminal', 'You look like a poof', 'You look a bit Jewish' type of thing.

Once children latch on to what they see as a legitimate reason, they can be vicious using it against their target.

I mean, fuck, they don't even need a reason most of the time, having one just brings out the pack mentality.

AgentZigzag Sat 09-Feb-13 20:53:37

I've been told I look right arsey when I've got no expression on my face echt, like I'm about to punch someone.

Which I would never do unless provoked

countrykitten Sat 09-Feb-13 20:58:38

Marriedinwhite what I do know is that only a certain type of person would use the word 'common' as it is one if those words that says a great deal more about the user than the intended target. The parents and pupils I deal with are not generally Hyacinth Bouquet types as they are secure enough in their own social position not to have to look down on others in the way that you clearly do. I doubt very much if you are a parent of one of the pupils I teach.

amck5700 Sat 09-Feb-13 21:00:54

The sneaking was because he'd been told to do his homework after dinner before going on his computer to play the all consuming minecraft - I couldn't honestly hear a thing, but I could feel the "sneak" grin

amck5700 Sat 09-Feb-13 21:03:05

Zigzag If I can manage not to look glaikit on a day to day basis I consider it a success- I'm happy with any other expression from Axe murderer to porn queen grin

marriedinwhite Sat 09-Feb-13 21:04:04

Oh, I must be a common little parvenu then grin. What top indy do you work for and I'll tell you if I would contemplating sending my DC there.

marriedinwhite Sat 09-Feb-13 21:05:08

And you must be a little circumspect about the word "kids" otherwise you would be happy to use it in front of the parents. If you were comfortable with them socially presumably you wouldn't worry about saying it.

AgentZigzag Sat 09-Feb-13 21:07:55

Tiny hijack, sorry OP, but amck 12 YO DD was asking whether she can have a go on minecraft (£17 one off payment, as you probably know), is it for around that age group do you know?

countrykitten Sat 09-Feb-13 21:14:03

Marriedinwhite I think you mean 'which' not 'what' and clearly I will not say as I do not wish to identify myself. In fact I do use the word 'kids' with parents in relaxed situations but I would not do so in a formal one such as at a parents' evening. I posted in a tongue in cheek way in support of another teacher whom you were rubbishing for using the term as I think you were being very unreasonable. That is really all I wish to say on the matter.

amck5700 Sat 09-Feb-13 21:18:14

yes zigzag- my boys have been playing since about 10 and are now 12 and 11 and most of their friends have accounts. They play each other on various servers and chat via skype while playing. It's their entire social life. I made the eldest look out the window at what the real world looks like today grin I should imagine a lot of her friends have accounts. Go the official route with the proper payment. That sounds about right at 17. sure it was about 13 when they got it and it was still in Beta. There are some scams and stuff going on so tell her to be careful. You can get it on PC or xbox. I know on the PC version you can play a trial game off-line to see if she likes it but I guess that's probably what she has been doing and now wants to sign up.

KitchenandJumble Sat 09-Feb-13 21:23:54

What's wrong with referring to children as kids? I teach at a university and sometimes use the word when referring to my students, although they are all adults. I'm an American, so that's my excuse. wink

But I've never heard anyone on either side of the Atlantic object to the word "kids" before. I would have thought only the Dowager Countess of Grantham or somebody of her era would raise such an objection. grin

marriedinwhite Sat 09-Feb-13 21:25:21

Definitely a common little parvenu then. Thanks so much for correcting my grammar. If I make a mistake in the next donation letter, presumably the head will send the cheque back rather than send a thank you letter.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sat 09-Feb-13 21:52:18

Standards in state schools from what I have seen are utterly dismal and need to be sorted out without further delay
hmm Married........ do tell what you have seen. You use plural so am assuming that you have spent a sufficiant amount of time in a significant number of the thousands of schools in order to make such a sweeping generalisation. What standards are dismal? Or are you one of those people who knows 'lots of teachers' and base your opinion of the state education on them?
I await your response with interest.

AgentZigzag Sat 09-Feb-13 22:36:31

Thanks amck smile

She has said most people have got it at school, and I've heard of it but just thought it was something like COD or whatever, so I was a bit surprised to see it's a sandbox type of thing.

grin at making him look out the window, was he all pasty faced and wan, shielding his eyes against the glare, brain overloaded with all the colour and light? grin

amck5700 Sat 09-Feb-13 22:45:37

lol - something like that grin - I think he's sees the world in pixilated block form. Really improved his arithmetic skills having to calculate quickly how many blocks of material he needs to make whatever it is he is building!

He fully intended to spend his weeks holiday next week on the PC 24/7 - that's not happening - I had him out town all afternoon today and he is going to the pool tomorrow morning then visiting Granny in the afternoon. He must be getting some sun as he is now 5'5 at age 12 and half!

Hope your daughter enjoys!

AgentZigzag Sat 09-Feb-13 22:56:32

I'm sure she will, thanks.

If it's any consolation, my brother has always lived the same Borg-like existence, but it paid him back and he's a computer programmer now.

amck5700 Sat 09-Feb-13 23:02:04

thanks zigzag - yes, I can see him doing something like that or engineering/architecture - he asked for a proper architects drawing board for Christmas and that's what he does when he runs out of screen time.

amck5700 Sat 09-Feb-13 23:09:12

He apparently has an IQ of 160 - He is quite clever but wouldn't have thought that much, think he hides it well smile

Saski Sun 10-Feb-13 11:56:46

What is wrong with "kids"? My "kids'" teachers use this with frequency. But, we're extremely common.

Saski Sun 10-Feb-13 12:09:26

And, it's pretty rude to lord one's position as school donor over a teacher on a thread after being called out on a gramatical error.

Countrykitten probably wouldn't have pointed out your "what" vs "which" error had you not criticized her choice in words of "kids" instead of "children".

marriedinwhite Sun 10-Feb-13 18:00:23

It was said tongue in cheek because countrykitten picked me up over a grammatical error and referred to me as arriviste and not quite the ticket. Needs to learn that if you can't take it; don't give it.

And fwiw I still detest the term "kids". It is slang and it is horrid and if countrykitten thinks that makes me the equivalent of Hyacinth Bouquet, sobeit. Doesn't make me like it any better. To refer to someone in those terms is pretty offensive and afaiac, having been so rude ck can suck it up grin

trip trap, trip trap. I live next to the iron bridge and watch many little goats go over it daily grin.

Saski Sun 10-Feb-13 18:55:51

Are you surprised that someone would think this of you? Your seem to mention some variation on 1. you're very posh 2. your kids go to "top independent day schools", or 3. that your husband is extremely wealthy and successful and that we would certainly know him if you dared to divulge his name- and so on, in nearly every one of your posts.

I find it so strange that someone would object to "kids" (sure, it's informal. Slang? That's more like "po po" instead of "police") that it verges on affectation in my mine.

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 18:58:53

Oh dear marriedinwhite.

marriedinwhite Sun 10-Feb-13 21:19:42

Nearly every one eh. Clearly you haven't read them all. Gosh, but my life would be very empty if I remembered actual posters for things that irked me for longer than about 20 minutes.

aamia Sun 10-Feb-13 21:36:54

Well, at least now I know why Marriedinwhite hates teachers so much! Whilst I feel terribly sorry for your daughter, you are generalizing a little too much methinks. Or should I hate all parents because there are those who abuse their children - through neglect, alcoholism etc. I can guarantee there are more cases than there were teachers who badly treated your daughter. So many teachers spend hours of their time and a fair bit of their own money just to make those children's lives a tiny bit nicer - a special pencil of their own, lunchtime spent doing a job in the company of an adult who cares, time spent fostering a friendship between two pupils with similar experiences so they had someone to share their lives with who understood, time to do homework/reading because no-one would at home, a nice packed lunch for a trip when only crisps would be provided... School cooks save seconds for children for whom that is the only meal of the day, TAs sew buttons back on, glue shoe soles together, repair ripped skirts/trousers/jumpers. Often the schools that do NOT get Outstanding, that struggle to get Good due to the areas they are in and the intake they get, are those in which the staff care most, where every child is valued and cared for, over and above the demands of the job. But that's all rubbish isn't it, because one school was bad for you?

aamia Sun 10-Feb-13 21:49:42

And to the OP, I think most parents are reasonable - or maybe I'm just lucky, as in the school I work in the parents are pretty supportive. But then I haven't been there very long so we'll see!

countrykitten Sun 10-Feb-13 22:03:39

An excellent post aamia.

MyDarlingClementine Sun 10-Feb-13 22:15:01

I have seen this first hand on many an occasion by a DM totally oblivious to her DS behaviour which seemed so pre meditated even for an under 5.

Absoluteeightiesgirl Mon 11-Feb-13 10:06:58

Beautifully put

Dawndonna Mon 11-Feb-13 10:26:21

Generally speaking, I think most parents are aware of the manner in which their children behave when at school. I also think most parents do support the school. I know my children have been bullied, both by pupils and staff. The staff were disciplined as well as the school. I made sure of it, and yes, it was a state school.
Ds2 attended an independent school. He has Asperger syndrome and was the type to correct spelling etc. Independent school understood this, and encouraged him to correct spelling mistakes. In my experience this does not happen in state schools to the same extent, having said that dds school have a new head who is actively encouraging such behaviour.
Yes, I am the parent that complains about grammar and spelling. I would complain about yours op.
Bollocking. Warrants. Independent. Families.

atthewelles Mon 11-Feb-13 11:26:14

I do think this behaviour from parents is on the increase. I have heard of so many occasions where people have called into a neighbour to complain, quietly and reasonably, about children making noise, running into gardens, kicking footballs against cars and front doors etc. only to be met by indignation, defensiveness or a rude 'my child has a right to play where he wants' attitude.
A friend of mine who's a teacher has also noticed this attitude from parents who cannot be told that their child is in the wrong about anything and will defend them to their last breath.

As a result these parents are raising rude, ill mannered brats totally oblivious to the rights of anyone around them or the effects and consequences of their behaviour.

LaQueen Mon 11-Feb-13 13:42:34

I see our DDs very, very clearly and am well aware of their faults. I'm pretty strict with them, and I expect high standards of good manners/pleasant behaviour - but, this is because I love them, and I want other people to love/like them, too.

I have a friend who constantly excuses her DC's poor behaviour with the same excuses over and over again 'They're hungry...they're tired...they're worried about the match tomorrow...'

No. They're really poorly behaved because you are a useless, ineffectual parent who allows them to behave in a socially unacceptable manner - and you really, really need to take responsibility for that.

And, the end result is that none of the other parents like these children and are reluctant to invite them into their homes.

usualsuspect Mon 11-Feb-13 13:46:36

I didn't think my children never did wrong ,but I'm always on their side and didn't tell them off constantly just to make me look like a good mother.

GingerbreadGretel Mon 11-Feb-13 14:15:55

MarriedInWhite - there is a school near here with a well-documented and appalling record of teachers abusing children which stretches back almost half a century. It is a private school. Should I assume that every private school teacher abuses children?

KellyElly Mon 11-Feb-13 15:53:34

I don't think many parents think their children do no wrong. I just think some parents have a hard time hearing it from other people.

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