to find myself shouting IT'S NOT ABOUT THE HORSE MEAT

(171 Posts)
ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 12:22:37

It's about companies not having the faintest idea what is in the food they sell!

Drugs, contaminants, carcinogens, allergens etc.

If you don't even know it is horse not beef then how can I trust it doesn't contain milk and hence will not kill my DNephew if I happen to feed it to him?

The same goes for toys. If you don't know who actually made the parts and from what then how do you know it isn't smothered in lead/anything else that is extremely harmful to children?

I predict a future filled with product and toy recalls followed by lawsuits until retailers wake up to the fact that we WILL blame them when a burger/toy they sold us harms the health of our children.

TheMightyLois Fri 08-Feb-13 12:23:55



uberalice Fri 08-Feb-13 12:24:48


magimedi Fri 08-Feb-13 12:25:17


DameMargotFountain Fri 08-Feb-13 12:25:58

absolutely, but as a sanctimonious veggie, i do like to stir it up a bit grin

Newyearoldmum Fri 08-Feb-13 12:26:17

Totally agree


I couldn't care less what 'meat' it is, it's the fact they didn't know

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 12:26:44

<is crossing fingers for a unanimous YANBU>

sasamaxx Fri 08-Feb-13 12:27:31

yes totally agree
and ppl keep saying things like 'horsemeat is pretty good meat actually'

FlouncingMintyy Fri 08-Feb-13 12:28:14

Yes, that's the real story. I honestly thought we had high food standards in this country.


splashymcsplash Fri 08-Feb-13 12:28:17

I disagree because I think the presence of horse meat in cheap meat products means that people need to seriously think about the ethics of cheap meat.

Chopstheduck Fri 08-Feb-13 12:28:46

I agree entirely with what you are saying, but there are still a lot of people getting hung up over the fact that it is horse rather than the real issues that you raise.


The lack of traceability is a major factor for me!

PetiteRaleuse Fri 08-Feb-13 12:31:33

YANBU and I think this is very much the thin (and safest and least shocking) end of the wedge.

WowOoo Fri 08-Feb-13 12:31:58

I wish I was a veggie at times like these.
At least you can wash any nasties off veg.

It's a shocking state of affairs, isn't it?
But, there are people on our side such as the people who found out about horsemeat.

aimum Fri 08-Feb-13 12:32:14

I agree. I can't believe people are worried about the fact its horse meat as though the fact its a horse is likely to kill you. Hopefully this will make manufacturers increase their standards.

MisForMumNotMaid Fri 08-Feb-13 12:32:38

DameMargot didn't it turn out in a previous food scandal that we had legislated that various animal parts weren't meat and were therefore used in products that could declare 'contains no meat'?

ivykaty44 Fri 08-Feb-13 12:35:17


It is about the consumer wanting cheap food and the supermarkets putting pressure on the companies to get cheaper and cheaper prices.

if you want to know what food you are eating then buy whole food products and pay a fair price for them.

princesschick Fri 08-Feb-13 12:37:06

YADNBU - I totally agree with you. We desperately try not to eat processed food at home and try to only eat organic meat, but I bet we've eaten something contaminated along the way over the years / in a restaurant / at friends / on a lazy day. Hormones, drugs, other chemicals massively bother me for all-sorts of personal health reasons. As a meat eater, this DEFINITELY not about being the wrong kind of animal (although can understand why people would be v.v.v. upset if they are particularly fond of horses).

With you all the way on this one OP! And makes me want to be even more vigilant about what we eat / where we eat out.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 12:37:13

ivy shock so it is unreasonable to think it isn't about the horse meat then?

I want to be clear about this because I was on 100% NU until you turned up...

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 12:38:20

ivy Also I don't really agree with your point. Supermarkets will drive for the cheapest supply now matter what mark up we are prepared to pay.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 08-Feb-13 12:40:59


I agree that it isn't about horsemeat, and I agree that we should be able to trust companies over what they put in food.

But, surely anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that anything that comes out of a frozen Findus box is likely to be full of stuff they'd would rather not eat. It's cheap for a reason.

ivykaty44 Fri 08-Feb-13 12:41:23

no it is about people wanting to turn a blind eye to what supermarkets practice in business, they don't want to admit they are shopping in a place that may have less than savioury practices and now they show shock and horror at one of the unsavioury practices to get them cheap food.

They are not concerned when it is farmers in countries around the world going out of businesss - as then they think it doesn't effect them.

it hasn't got any thing to do with horse meat it is to do with the fact that it may mean prices go up - and a lot higher prices for meat will come into force

chihiro Fri 08-Feb-13 12:42:07

YANBU food labelling has supposed to have come a long way - telling us calories, health and allergy information, etc. And now we find that the list of ingredients bit has just been made up.

How are we supposed to trust anything written on our food?

Trills Fri 08-Feb-13 12:42:42

I disagree CloudsandTrees

Anything that comes out of a frozen Findus box should have in it only what is listed on the box.

It may be written in slightly misleading language, but it should be listed.

socharlottet Fri 08-Feb-13 12:42:57

Have you ever worked in the food industry? Of course Findus knew!

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 12:43:42

princess the problem is the tendering out of supply through massive chains of companies. Even if you are careful what and where you eat there will be a bottle of sauce somewhere in the kitchen that has one of these complex supply chains where at the end of the day it could have ANYTHING in it by the time the restaurant bought it from the wholesaler.

Even 3 star restaurants won't be making their own vinegar, or olive oil, soy sauce etc.

MerlotAndMe Fri 08-Feb-13 12:43:55

I'm not that bothered. horse ? cow? Pig? for me, no biggie.

I wish they'd put some of that horse dna in the fish fingers to hold them together better. when i take them off the grill they fall apart, they're just neighing out for a bit of horse dna.

silverfrog Fri 08-Feb-13 12:44:19

yes, yanbu.

I go hmm every time it is mentioned on the news that 'the horse meat is safe, and no harm will come from eating it.

Not really the point, is it?

I CBA to get hung up over which furry/fluffy/cute animal I am consuming (although it is always nice to know), and have eaten many a 'weirder' alternative than horsemeat. But exactly how did we get to the state where companies are selling products without actually knowing what they contain, despite supposedly stringent rules on listing ingredients etc.

seriously worrying if you ask me.

and yy to point re: allergens too.

TheMightyLois Fri 08-Feb-13 12:44:35

I've been having this argument with people who are disgusted with the horse meat. It's NOT about the horse meat. It's that there is ingredients in the food that shouldn't ever be there, that aren't on the ingredients list.

I don't understand why people weren't as disgusted by pork being in beef burgers as they were about the horse meat. It's just arse backwards.

MerlotAndMe Fri 08-Feb-13 12:44:58

Findus lasagne being 100% horse dna though, tbh that's the first headline i've read that REALLY did shock me!

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 12:45:15

Its okay everyone Ivy agrees it isn't about the horse meat!

I totally agree - I was standing in sainsburys this morning trying to decide what to buy and actually found myself wondering if I was looking at what I thought I was. My bit of ham could be anything for all I know! my tiger bread god knows whats lurking in that dough. I have no idea what the alternative is other than growing all of my own food though!

SelfRighteousPrissyPants Fri 08-Feb-13 12:46:32

Yes YANBU. As a veggie it did make me smirk at first but it's the whole food labelling and trust in what we're buying thing that's the issue.

ivykaty44 Fri 08-Feb-13 12:46:32

thats ok then grin

ivykaty44 Fri 08-Feb-13 12:47:15

I still don't bleeding agree with you though wink

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 12:48:32

I do take the point that if people are prepared to buy ready meals then there is a market environment where something like this is bound to happen....but I wouldn't go as far as to say if you buy a ready meal then you deserve what happens to you....

You could say the same about the toys. If you buy cheap toys then it's your own fault if you kid gets lead poisoning. In reality it is hard to find toys that don't say 'parts made in china' which is where the problems tend to start....

DisAstrophe Fri 08-Feb-13 12:49:29

Yanbu. Ds has school dinners and burgers and cottage pie are on the menu once a week. The school says they have confidence in their suppliers but I'm sure tescos and asda thought the same up to a month ago.
And if we can't trust beef why should we trust any other food product?

MousyMouse Fri 08-Feb-13 12:50:39

yanbu, you are right, that is not the issue

I would buy burgers that contain horse meat, am not squeemish about that at all.

but we have to be able to trust the food labelling being for allery or other diatary reasons. we have to or would have to go back to cooking fom scratch and keeping chickens and a pig in the back yard for consumption.
I hope the companies involved get big fines at least. it will most probably not only affect the uk but many other countries as well.

I agree it is more about the ethics of cheap meat.

I would've thought people would be more up in arms about rogue pork being in burgers etc because there are lots of religious reasons for not eating pork. I dont know of any that specifically ban horse.

The reason people cant get their head around eating horse is because we are ridiculously sentimental about animals in this country - people see horses as fluffy wuffy pets and so don't want to think they've eaten Red Rum/Black Beauty/Ed the Talking Horse/whatever. That sentimentality doesn't translate to eating fluffy wuffy lambs because they don't SEE livestock farming, they don't know what it entails, they don't make the connection with that and their roast. Or fluffy yellow chicks with their eggs. Or cute calves with milk in their tea.

We like our meat pre-packaged, pre-trimmed, with labels on them that say things like 'Good for Stir Fry'. When I was a kid (and I'm only 30-something) the butcher used to have diagrams of the animals up with different joints drawn on. I even had a children's farming book with something similar. Now we seem to want the food we eat to seem as unrelated to the idea of a dead animal as possible, yet everyone seems astonished when the industry they've turned a blind eye to for years isn't all that it seems.

EllieArroway Fri 08-Feb-13 12:53:49

I agree entirely.

I'm not all that bothered that it was horse - I am bothered that I didn't know that it was.

We have the absolute right to know what we're eating - I think that's what the "'s horse, so what?" crew are not really getting.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 12:54:26

Indeed...this is definitely the tip of the iceberg.

retailers either need to safety and contents check all of their own products or stop having these supply chains that mean a contamination at the 7th or 8th remove can catch them out.

Surely there only needs to be the person producing the actual food, the person constructing it into a product and the retailer?

With toys, just make the toy and then give it to the retailer! Don't farm out the painting to someone who farms it out to someone who farms it out to someone who puts lead in it! Pleeeeeease!

PickledInAPearTree Fri 08-Feb-13 12:55:17


If its horse meat is should be clearly stated on the ingredients.

However cheap food is it should be properly labelled, or do poorer people on a very tight budget not deserve to know what they are eating.

Some of these comments are bizarre.

I have just made this point on the other thread.
People keep saying "i don't know why everyone's getting het up about eating horsemeat, its just meat"
And yet I don't see a single person actually getting het up about eating horsemeat. I think some people read what they expect to read.

Maryz Fri 08-Feb-13 13:02:17

In a way, though, it is about the fact that it is horse meat.

Because had it been beef, but obtained from dodgy sources, foreign abattoirs, with dodgy health and safety records and undocumented suppliers it would be just as awful but we would never have found out.

The fact that it was horsemeat meant that it was discoverable, if that makes sense.

I wonder are they now checking chicken for traces of turkey, pigeon and rat?

BalloonSlayer Fri 08-Feb-13 13:02:36

Tiger bread probably has got tigers in it and when this is discovered they will claim "well, it was clearly labelled."

Sainsbury's re-named theirs Giraffe Bread, apparently because a little girl wrote in saying the pattern on it looked more like a giraffe than a tiger. I suspect a smokescreen.

My phone corrected it to "housemate". Id like to think everyone would get het up about cannibalism!

Maryz Fri 08-Feb-13 13:03:44

And just to add - I'm sure that many products that have been found not to contain horsemeat will contain cheap "fillers" and other products which are even worse (as in untraceable, undocumented, uncontrolled by H&S etc), but they are getting away with it because there is no non-beef DNA hmm

exexpat Fri 08-Feb-13 13:04:57

As a vegetarian, I have to admit to an occasional smirk at this, but I agree that it is worrying for what it implies about food labelling and lack of control of the production process and supply chain. And unfortunately that could just as easily affect vegetarian foods - there was the case a couple of decades ago about the Linda McCartney pies with actual meat in them. That is one reason why I eat very few 'imitation meat' products, because really, how do you know?

We'd all be better off with much less processed stuff anyway. My mantra (though I can't always stick to it) comes from Michael Pollan: "eat food, not too much, mostly plants". The main thing is that by 'food' he means minimally processed foods, stuff your great-granny would recognise; nothing with huge long lists of ingredients, half of which you don't understand or can't pronounce, and nothing that makes diet or health claims. Though I know it's easier said than done these days...

WillSantaComeAgain Fri 08-Feb-13 13:07:28

Aparently there is an historical religious reason for not eating horse. It was outlawed by Christians in the 8th Century and it was only when Napolean realised his troops would starve because he was an idiot to invade Russia in the winter if he didn't encourage it that it became acceptable again. [And this MUST be true, I read it in the Rupert Murdoch press]

Its definitely not about the horsemeat [though it makes me feel physically sick to think about it] - its about knowing what's in the food we eat and understanding about the true costs of food. Factory farming, milk shipped in from Poland to make "genuine" west country cheddar (that is sold in Waitrose as a "made in the UK") etc etc. The public need to wake up and realise that cheap = crap. Period. I think I read somewhere that our parents generation spent one third of their income on food. A third!! We spend less than 10%.

Really glad I stopped buying ready meals and cheap meat about 15 years ago. I'd rather not eat meat ever again than eat a tesco value burger.

TheMightyLois Fri 08-Feb-13 13:07:35

"Sainsbury's re-named theirs Giraffe Bread, apparently because a little girl wrote in saying the pattern on it looked more like a giraffe than a tiger. I suspect a smokescreen."

Wasn't that letter just an advertising thing by Sainsbury's?

niceguy2 Fri 08-Feb-13 13:08:28

Couldn't agree more OP. I actually couldn't care less about the fact there is horsemeat being sold. As long as it's labelled and people can make their own minds up.

But to sell a BEEF lasagne and for it to have 100% horsemeat in it is frankly ridiculous.

Yep. I have a Tesco macaroni cheese in the freezer. I wonder what nasties that contains.

Thank you Santa, i've just been educating myself on Wikipedia about it!

FairyJen Fri 08-Feb-13 13:13:51

Extremely well said op I agree 100%!

neriberi Fri 08-Feb-13 13:14:38

What I don't understand is why so much of meat comes from Europe when we have farmers over here on the brink of going out business.

E320 Fri 08-Feb-13 13:15:26

Actually, it is about stupid, " entitled" consumers expecting " someone" to take responsibility for everything in their lives.
Shop at your local butcher, baker, fishmonger or green grocer. Stop lining the pockets of the processed food industry!

Cos it is cheap, cos it is horse meat, and the rest of Europe does not have the animal welfare standards that we supposedly have in this country.

moisturiser Fri 08-Feb-13 13:16:52

Totally agree OP

But for me there is also the aspect of if there's a type of meat in the product they didn't know was there, chances are that meat was slaughtered in awful, horrible conditions. It's probably naive of me to think that all Uk meat, say, is ethically slaughtered, but I would bet most conditions are a hell of a lot better than they are in the countries were the horse meat came from. I abhor the fact that animals are being killed in dreadful conditions.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:17:06

Maryz I was just thinking that the DNA angle has made it very easy to check meat...but not so much what the non-biological components might be. I guess you can check the actual source of flours, oils (except mineral?) although maybe not.

<glances at biology textbook on shelf that she never did find time to read>

I don't think its stupid for the food that is on sale in our shops to be fit for human consumption (not saying this wasnt btw) and tat the label should vaguely reflect what it is. I know now that its naive, but I do not agree it is stupid.

AppleOgies Fri 08-Feb-13 13:17:24

YANBU. I avoid processed foods if possible. If I cook it myself then I know (mostly) what goes into it. How the food manufacturers cannot know what is in their products is highly worrying. Is there no quality control at all?

Sorry, stupid to expect the food

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:19:11

E230 not sure if it is massively entitled to want accurate product information?

If I go to my butcher, will he be able to guarantee no contamination with milk protein? It isn't something that the local farmer is necessarily set up to eliminate?

countrykitten Fri 08-Feb-13 13:20:40

Woo, you say that at times like these you wish you were a veggie....what's stopping you? It's easy.

WillSantaComeAgain Fri 08-Feb-13 13:20:50

The milk from Poland one is a really good example (because I know exactly which cheesemaker does it and the local farmers). Cheesemaker in the middle of prime dairy country. I shit you not, you cannot move for beautiful holstein cows for a good say, five mile radius around this farm. They buy their milk from Poland because it is cheaper. The cheese can be sold as UK origin (they even name the farm it comes from). No suggestion that the milk got shipped over a thousand miles <keeps fingers crossed that geographical knowledge of Europe isn't going to embarass me> with all the polution that entails AND with no guarantees on the welfare standards of the cows that produced that milk.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:20:55

I am waiting for human DNA to turn up....

GrumpyOldHorsewoman Fri 08-Feb-13 13:21:22

If one good thing comes out of this, it will be that people may be less complacent about what they chuck in their trolley. Making your own food from scratch isn't difficult and can cost considerably less than buying it all ready-made. Healthier, less waste, less packaging, just slightly more time-consuming (but not necessarily that much). And actual food tastes better than ready-made anyway.
YANBU - we need to reclaim our values.

socharlottet Fri 08-Feb-13 13:22:48

'I am waiting for human DNA to turn up.... '
Shhh! You'll give the tories ideas about what to do with these pesky benefit scroungers!

Narked Fri 08-Feb-13 13:23:13

Shop at your local butcher, baker, fishmonger or green grocer. Stop lining the pockets of the processed food industry!

And the meat you buy from your butcher is somehow guaranteed? Because smaller businesses never adulterate their products to raise their profits. This has gone on for centuries. The difference is that we've been lulled into thinking that we don't need to be cautious anymore.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:23:31

will that is just abysmal! You should get no brownie points at all for the location of the production line...only for the origin of the raw materials.

The stupidity is that I would pick a genuine home grown cheese for all sorts of reasons and I would pay at least 50% more if not 100%.

When I buy british beef does that just mean killed and packaged in the UK? Or farmed here?

JakeBullet Fri 08-Feb-13 13:23:42

This is why I cook from scratch..

Scholes34 Fri 08-Feb-13 13:23:57

Tesco sells frozen omlettes. That says a lot about our inability to cook and the reliance of many on ready meals.

Meat eaters can eat vegetarian food too. It's not exclusive to vegetarians, and it's really very tasty.

countrykitten Fri 08-Feb-13 13:24:11

Processed food is disgusting and I have no idea why anyone would eat it. This current scandal will soon be forgotten as people clamour for their fish fingers, burgers, sausages and pies again. The thought of it makes me feel ill but other people will put up with serious animal cruelty/ welfare issues and horribly poor quality 'meat' as long as it comes cheap and in a box.

startingfresh Fri 08-Feb-13 13:24:50

Someone said about it being a wider issue than just the UK earlier, though I'd chip in with this article I was linked to by a friend in Sweden:

So, yeah. It's not just us. It's a widespread accountability. Does it matter that a few people ate horse? If they knew about it, no. It's that they don't know, and as my STBXH pointed out, horses not bred for consumption are given a vaccine which is harmful to humans if eaten, so you really have to hope these were the right kind of horses. Dobbin from down the field is not a suitable animal to eat.

countrykitten Fri 08-Feb-13 13:25:53

GOHW great post. I completely agree with you.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:28:12

All right all you superior 'I cook from scratch' types!

Do you make your own oils? vinegars? sauces? breads? cereals?

Would you local butcher actually stake his life on the meat he sells never having come into contact with peanuts or milk protein or any of the other life threatening allergens?

Or are you in fact just as likely to be putting unknown substances down your gullet as the ready meal gang?

In the bse scandal, they claimed human remains entered the animal feed chain in the form of bone char. Apparently the people making the char used remains fished out of the gangees as well as bones from cattle, horses, buffalo etc! Yuk!

I don't think it's impossible that small businesses will adulterate their products, but it's far less likely. If I go into my local butchers, he is able to tell me where all his meat comes from (and most of it is very local). I know that the mince is made from beef and the beefburgers are made from his mince, as I have seen him making them. And I know similarly that most of the veg in the greengrocers is local as he goes out in the van and picks it up from the actual farm only a few miles away.

But I'm lucky that I have enough time and money to use local small businesses and cook from scratch. Lots of people rely on supermarkets because they are cheap and convenient.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:31:24

And what about toys? How does cooking from scratch help you when neither yourself nor the retailer can have any confidence that a toy made from bits made in china does not contain lead paint?

There is a much bigger problem here than can be fixed by cooking from scratch.

DontmindifIdo Fri 08-Feb-13 13:31:38

You know what, this is also a class issue. It's expensive to eat at butchers, fishmongers etc i do, and I know I could knock at least £40 off what we spend weekly just by going to the supermarket instead for our meat. I could knock even more off by buying cheaper meat products than whole meat and making from scratch.

It's poor people who have been fed shit and there's a horrible middle class sneering attitude that it's somehow their fault for picking cheap food and assuming it will be what they think they are buying.

How much do people think you should pay in order to get the truth from food suppliers? I trust my butcher is telling me the truth that the bacon and mince I bought from him earlier is organic from local farmers. Would that be more shocking if it's a lie because it was expensive? Can I assume I'll get the truth because I pay for it, rather than everyone getting the truth regardless of what they pay.

It was on the news earlier that they are now testing these foods for drugs given to horses that aren't allowed in farmed cattle for fear about human safety, but hey, it's only poor people who'll have eaten it, so it's ok, right? They shouldn't expect to look at a list of ingredients and expect it to be the truth because they aren't spending a lot of money. It's ok if we feed any old shit to the poorest, most vunerable people in society, right?

Well said DontmindifIdo.

Well, I do think it's a bit of a worry that things like oils/butter etc could be contaminated. It's pretty difficult for most people to make those sort of things from scratch or buy them from places other than supermarkets.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:34:30

I think cereal will be a big one. So many ingredients and so many places to hide things that aren't really supposed to be there.

Also clays in soups.

NormaStanleyFletcher Fri 08-Feb-13 13:35:28

As one who has intentionally eaten horse when in France (horse steak is delish) yadnbu

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:35:45

dont you make a good point...but fwiw I don't think you are particularly more likely to get honesty for your money. I just think the higher value brands have more invested in the lie and will fight harder to cover it up.

OldMacEIEIO Fri 08-Feb-13 13:35:47

I think I realised about the findus a few months ago when my 3 dc's would not eat it and my dp tried it and fell off his stool in disgust.
Three refusals and a fall, it was a dead giveaway

Whoknowswhocares Fri 08-Feb-13 13:36:01

'Food beyond compare
Food beyond belief
Mix it in a mincer
And pretend it's beef
Kidney of a horse
Liver of a cat
Filling up the sausages
With this and that'

All together now, to the tune of Master of the House!

PetiteRaleuse Fri 08-Feb-13 13:36:12

You are right OP in that cooking from scratch won't fix the problem. But it will help. And is something that everyone can do or learn to do.

"poor people who have been fed shit and there's a horrible middle class sneering attitude that it's somehow their fault for picking cheap food "
Excellent points, made by both you and the OP. As a vegetarian I do NOT feel safe (and that's aside from the fact my DH and children eat meat). Even if you avoid the obvious processed food such as ready meals, much of what we buy is processed in some way (obviously to varying extents) and I for one would find that hard to change, unless we ate potatoes and vegetables every day.
Baked beans. Dried pasta. Sausages. All processed. This is an issue that will disproportionately affect the poorer but it is not down to making bad choices IMO. it's all about the at best poor standards and practice, and at worst sheer criminality and evil, of food processors.

SaladIsMyFriend Fri 08-Feb-13 13:36:45

YANBU and I totally agree with only buying food that your granny would recognise.

My dad used to work for a major manufacturer of meat products (processed cold meats, sausages etc.) and the things he used to tell us about what went on in the factory would put you off processed food for life.

TroublesomeEx Fri 08-Feb-13 13:37:14

ICBINEG I completely agree with you.

I'm a 'cook from scratch' type. But you're right, I don't make everything myself. I do go to shops and buy the ingredients. So I do make my own sauces, but I use shop bought ingredients to do so.

By doing so, and not buying ready 'meals', I believe I'm limiting the amount of crap that goes into my food, but I am well aware that I can't avoid it completely.

It's worrying really. Especially when my feeling is very much that if you buy a cake, what you're eating is only a facsimile or a close approximation of a cake. There are a heck of a lot more ingredients listed than I would ever put in a cake!

my grandma would ahve recognised a burger! And a lasagne. How old are you lot!

exexpat Fri 08-Feb-13 13:39:01

She might have recognised 'burger' or 'lasagne', but would she have recognised the ingredients in the mass-produced Findus/value ones?

I don't think it's at all ok if we feed shit to anyone. But I do think people will have to accept that a reasonable standard of food costs a bit more to produce, and I also think supermarkets should not be able to make more than a certain level of profit on food. They seem to think it's fine to use cheap, unregulated products if it means they can make a larger profit.

I cook from scratch mainly because I prefer home made food. It may mean I am less likely to be eating stuff I wouldn't want to eat, but it doesn't make it impossible.

I think that all food retailers, both small local businesses and large supermarkets should be made to be fully accountable for everything they sell.

TheMightyLois Fri 08-Feb-13 13:41:17

This is nothing to do with food being processed or not, it's to do with foodstuffs getting in to food that shouldn't be there. Obviously it's never going to happen with whole fruit and vegetables, but could easily happen with bread for example.

Processed food is grim and but that's another debate.

countrykitten Fri 08-Feb-13 13:41:48

Try and stick to the rule that whatever you buy should only have one or two ingredients. We do this and my god it opens your eyes to all

No exec, but not sure I would either! And I agree, that is the problem. Innocent etc are big on their honest ingredients etc, I hope others will do the same.
(innocent also v expensive compared to its competitors)

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:42:30

folk yes indeed...I recently started baking with my DD and have been amazed at how few ingredients you can actually make a cake with. The ingredient list a mile long is a dead giveaway that there may be trouble...

But even then we are not using butter/marg we made ourselves, and the flour comes from wherever....and milk!

<wonders if there is horse, human, dog milk in the milk>

SaladIsMyFriend Fri 08-Feb-13 13:42:39

My grandmother would have found burgers or lasagne "exotic", but then I am indeed very old.

TheMightyLois Fri 08-Feb-13 13:42:41

ah fast moving thread and people made my point far more eloquently than I can smile


We can't have it all, cheap things are cheap for a reason. We need to consume much less of everything, especially meat.

GrumpyOldHorsewoman Fri 08-Feb-13 13:44:23

It's nothing about a 'sneering middle class attitude'. My Grandparents were far from sneering or middle class and they continued to provide as much for themselves as they could until they died (all fairly recently). My grandad would walk to a bakery a mile away to get the bread he wanted for his family, despite working six full days a week building ships. My grandma would cook for her family of six on the most meagre of monies and it's just a thrifty way of living that benefits everyone but seems to have been lost. Big businesses have taken the piss out of people for years and everyone has suffered. There's no holier than thou involved - we've all been suckered but its up to everyone to take responsibility because as consumers we've all demanded more of everything and at cheaper prices.

Well, I do think the more ingredients are in a product you buy, the more likely it is you will end up with some sort of contamination, just because there are items from more sources going into the product.

Buying products with fewer ingredients might reduce the likelihood of contamination but it can't guarantee against it.

TheMightyLois Fri 08-Feb-13 13:44:55

My grandmother would never have eaten lasagne or burgers - I don't think she ever ate pasta actually.

Everything she ever cooked was meat, potatoes and veg. Or sometimes rice, or occasionally stew with dumplings. She probably ate horse though. wink

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 13:45:12

Even fruit/veg seems to come with a longer ingredient list than the obvious one thing it should contain these days.

I have a friend allergic to sulphites and she bought her fruit veg in the places that were least likely to set her off but it was still hit and miss....and so very many products that didn't list it and clearly contained it.

Just crap.

amillionyears Fri 08-Feb-13 13:47:39

I am a bit older than some of you - not too much!
But I have never trusted any food since the BSE scandal.

I always look at food,and think, I have ne real idea of what is in this.
Trouble is we all have to eat.

Cooking from scratch desnt at all mean anything is any better.
Look in your larder.
We dont know what is in there.
Not at all.
Like I have said before, even lettuce is known to have been sprayed 50 times before we buy it.

I did think, naively as it turned out, that the supermarkets were regularly checking their food.
Seems not.

Makes all this loking at labels things, and people wanting accurate labelling, a bit silly, when even the supermarkets themselves done actually know what is in their own foods.

andubelievedthat Fri 08-Feb-13 13:48:22

give it 3 weeks and it will be a dim and distance memory along the lines of >the price of fuel>treatment of elderly people in hosp.-care homes /certain airlines overcharging for baggage and so it will go.. toys in this country when going for type approval are seriously tested for safety ,everything is considered inc. the paint , the prob. is ,imports,not enough staff to investigate same and lack of follow this country ,something has to happen before something happens >care about food ?read "Fast Food Nation "<McDonald"s anyone?

OldMacEIEIO Fri 08-Feb-13 13:49:39

well said grumpy old horse. It's nothing to do with class or price.

If you advertise something as 100% beef, and it is not, thats a failure of the the company and of the inspection process

they should be prosecuted for false advertising, not class warfare

JamNan Fri 08-Feb-13 13:51:59

It's about companies not having the faintest idea what is in the food they sell!...

YADNBU. Too true! How do we know it doesn't contain flies, dead rodents with fur, roadkill with feathers, horse carcasses from the knacker's yard, aborted animal foetuses, and something I have witnessed myself - immature eggs falling out of dead and/or dying chickens on a production line and being recovered for human consumption. We have no idea if the carcasses have been cleaned properly and I suspect that in some countries (where uneducated workers are paid a pittance) and food hygiene is overlooked, a lot of faeces and other excrement goes into the mix with the offal, hooves, tails and ears and eyeballs etc

FACT IS WE DON'T REALLY KNOW. sorry for shouting

The food industry is big business. It's profit-led selling cheap food and makes money flogging nasty ingredients to people who often can't afford much or don't know any better.

I am not a vegetarian BTW. As you might guess, I do not buy this sort of food. But there are thousands of children in this country being fed a diet of filthy shit disguised as nurturing food.

amillionyears Fri 08-Feb-13 13:53:40

andubelievethat, no I dont agree.
A new generation has now found out a bit more about the food industry, supermarkets in particular.

Will it change shopping habits?
Maybe, for a few.

I have to say, that I am probably one of the few who still have several local butchers to choose from.
And I have never heard of any problem with any of them.
These people tend to be part of the local community, and some butchers are also farmers.

I think anyone sitting here saying "well I never buy that freezer ready meal rubbish so I'm fine" is a bit deluded anyway. What's to say your middle-class chorizo is 100 per cent artisan Spanish pig? The Beef and Ginger at your local chinese takeaway? The oh-so-authentic local Italian on your road gets its food... where?
Unless you literally only eat things you or a known source has grown the food industry is so massive nowadays you've no idea where the sandwich you buy for lunch really came from.

MimikosPanda Fri 08-Feb-13 13:55:21

I agree OP, I've just posted on the other thread that I don't really mind eating horse, have eaten it abroad before and others. That said, I'd like to be able to trust ingredient list. If it's horse, fine, but say it is horse. Makes you wonder what else is in there they aren't putting on the ingredients.

From an allergy point of view it is very worrying, we put our trust in the ingredients list.

amillionyears Fri 08-Feb-13 13:56:13

I do actually think there is a bit of a problem about people on here and elsewhere saying they dont care so much about the horsemeat.

In the long term, unscrupulous people are going to wonder just what we are relatively happy to eat??

TheMightyLois Fri 08-Feb-13 13:56:22

I really want a cheese Findus crispy pancake sandwich now.

<wanders off>

AmberLeaf Fri 08-Feb-13 13:57:58

Agree with DontmindifIdo to an extent.

I also think it goes the other way too though, I don't believe that every foodstuff being advertised and sold as organic actually is organic.

How do you know for sure though? no way of checking is there, you just have to believe what you are being told........

DontmindifIdo Fri 08-Feb-13 13:58:47

Talking about "what grandparents would eat" is missing an important point, in my childhood (80s) it was much more expensive to eat ready prepared food than to cook from scratch. Over the last 20 years or so, it's flipped the other way round, it's now much much cheaper to eat a lasagne bought pre-made from a freezer cabinet than it is to buy all the individual ingredients and make it yourself.

This is also missing the point that very few people buy everything in raw form, I normally buy my bread even though I can make it myself. If I did make it myself, I would have to trust the flour I've bought is just flour with nothing else in it.

I've bought mince today from the butchers (and might well make a lasagne with it), I'm taking their word for it that it's minced beef steak, I didn't actually buy steak and mince it myself.

We live in a civilised and developed country. Everyone, regardless of what level of prices they pay, should be able to know what they are buying. Even if the packaging says "80% horse" at least then you could trust what it says.

totally agree. I have eaten horse abroad and I'd be happy to eat it here. But i want to know that what i'm eating (whatever it is) has been farmed and processed properly and is safe to eat etc - that cannot be the case if the people selling/manufacturing etc don't even know what it is, let alone where it came form and how it's been handled/processed etc.

TalkinPeace2 Fri 08-Feb-13 14:00:34


I've eaten horse steak. It was yummy. But it said horse on the menu. Not cow.

A good reason to boycott ALL cheap processed foods and cook from scratch.

AmberLeaf Fri 08-Feb-13 14:01:35

To add, my Dad is partially self sufficient in the 'good life' way, he grows his own veg, large part of his land is for food growing, so Ive seen what he does and I understand how difficult it is to not use pesticides.

If he didn't use them most of his crops would be no good.

So Ive always thought there is an element of fakery in the organic food industry.

GirlOutNumbered Fri 08-Feb-13 14:04:22

What I hate is the 'may contain milk' etc. Don't you know? Cant you be bothered to clean machines after making food? WHy is it so hard for food manufacturers to tell us what is actually in our food!!

countrykitten Fri 08-Feb-13 14:04:33

I wish people would stay off the class thing. My mum is a working class woman but sourced food locally and cooked from scratch when we were growing up. I did not go in to a supermarket until I was 17!! She is horrified by the shit masquerading as food that my sister regularly feeds to her kids and she hates supermarkets still!

MimikosPanda Fri 08-Feb-13 14:06:26

amillion I'm happy to eat most animals if I'm honest, but the key thing is choice and knowledge. If I choose a rabbit pie, I want to know what I am eating is actually what I've chosen. I'd be happy for shops to sell all sorts of meats as long as they are legally obtained as a foodstuff and labelled correctly.

If Tesco start selling pigeons and people like them then Tesco will keep selling them, if it turns out the UK don't like to eat pigeon then Tesco will stop giving shelf space to them and stop selling them.

As long as it is all legal and honest I'm happy to eat all sorts. My DC may disagree though

princesschick Fri 08-Feb-13 14:08:48

ICBINEG you make loads of good points and I totally agree with you. When I say vigilant, I really mean, doing my best and doing my research. This scare reminds me not to buy processed food in a hurry, not to buy any junk food whatsoever, to eat in restaurants that source food locally, to stay committed to certified organic where possible and to try and be an ethical consumer too - but maybe I'm being mugged off and I'm just paying for expensive stuff labelled a certain way that is just full of junk too - I hope not! confused

We made some hefty life changes last year - such as only using certified organic toiletries and make-up; eating fresh organic and from scratch most of the time; renovating our house using eco materials and no VOC paints; opting for a natural bed (no fire retardants) and organic wood's exhausting to research each and every purchase not to mention expensive! We have done all of this because we were struggling to conceive (3.5 years) and thought it was a hormone problem with me - it made us really paranoid that my imbalance could be down to environmental factors (estrogens in plastics, non organic meats and chemicals in make-up and toiletries etc etc).

We've looked into so much stuff over the last 12 months and the chemicals we are surrounded by is alarming (it's enough to make you feel paranoid about everything!). It's not just lead paint on toys but also toxic stuff used on everything else, most foods being wrapped in plastics and lots of offgassing materials used in furniture / household goods. We try to be vigilant but as you say, how do I know my organic flour hasn't been contaminated, how do I know that the food I eat from the 'locally sourced' restaurant doesn't have other stuff in it; how do I know my natural bed is really any different from a £99 mattress using "regular" stuff - I don't! It does bother me hugely, but I guess we can only do what we can do. A starting point for us has been to try and cut down on plastics, try and make all of our own food from scratch, buy things in glass jars / bottles etc etc

The other thing that bothers me is the cost. Ethical / non toxic / eco living comes at an expense and it really bothers me that so much stuff (clothes, furniture, paints, toys, food etc etc) is being made using weird non-natural chemicals that could have profound effects on our health. Most people aren't aware and most people don't have the money to make these choices. I know we'll have to cut back when I have our baby later this year - it's just where we do we cut back and do I live in a world feeling paranoid and constantly under threat or feeling guilty because I can't have a handmade certified non toxic kitchen and have only got enough savings to go IKEA?

I guess I would just like to have more information as a consumer and a better understanding of the things I'm eating and the things I'm surrounded by. And reassurances that I can trust what the label says! But as you point out these latest scares show how little we know - and no, it's not about it being horse meat!

Maryz Fri 08-Feb-13 14:09:40

I've just seen willsanta's post about cheese, and I'm actually more upset about that than I am about the horsemeat.

I think most of us accept that if we buy processed cheap food (ready meals, burgers, chicken nuggets etc) then it will have fillers and possibly quite a lot of shite in it.

But to buy cheese (which most of us think of as a natural, non-processed food, in that its ingredient list is pretty short and using it in cooking would be considered by most as cooking from scratch) marked as coming from a certain farm, and then to discover it's actually Polish milk is a bit shit.

BegoniaBampot Fri 08-Feb-13 14:11:10

Agree OP. Don't have a problem with horse meat as long as I've actually chosen to eat it. Made me think about avoiding the supermarkets a bit and using my local butcher, also made me think about eating a lot less meat.

DontmindifIdo Fri 08-Feb-13 14:11:29

countrykitten - as I said earlier, unless you are less than 20 years old, then it would have been cheaper for your mum to source food locally and cook from scratch, it's only more recently it's become the other way round that food from scratch is the 'posh' way to do it.

There's a lot of sneering on here that some how the people who don't cook from scratch "deserve" this because they bought preprepared food. Bollocks - the food you buy should be clearly labelled, even if that label ends up having a list of additives/says horse. Regardless of what you pay, you should know what you're getting.

amillionyears Fri 08-Feb-13 14:11:38

But why is an organic expensive deli any more a reliable source of ingredients than anywhere else?

chances are, their products are even less tested than a large supermarket chain?

countrykitten Fri 08-Feb-13 14:16:19

Princess I know where you are coming from . I was diagnosed with endometriosis last year and have had to educate myself about all of the chemicals and hormones that are around us and in everything we use. It is frightening and even though I am as organic as I can be I still feel defeated by the whole endeavour at times.

Fallenangle Fri 08-Feb-13 14:18:24

It isn't about labelling it is about sourcing. If Findus had known it was horsemeat they wouldn't have used it, it is that they didn't know and took on trust a complex and easily infiltrated supply chain that is the worry.
We were told over and over that meat could be traced not just to the farm it was produced on but to the actual animal. Twas all bollox, turns out they don't even know which races it ran in.

PickledInAPearTree Fri 08-Feb-13 14:25:43

Just agreeing with everything dontmind is saying here to save my fingers.

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 14:26:13

princess sorry to hear you are struggling. And yes it is a massive can of worms. I really hope all retailers of every sort are now having a good hard look at their supply chains and realising that responsibility for testing that what they sell is what they say it is, ultimately lies with them.

princesschick Fri 08-Feb-13 14:27:35

Countrykitten here's a link to a handout from my nutritionist, which I found really helpful. One of her specialist areas is endo, and she has lots of info on her website plus she's published a book on it too, which might be useful smile toxic tour handout and website

Sorry off topic for everyone else!

ICBINEG Fri 08-Feb-13 14:28:12

Not off topic at all!

princesschick Fri 08-Feb-13 14:32:03

Thank you ICBINEG Oh, I didn't mention that I'm now 5 months pregnant (I thought I had blush - baby brain grin) - we think because of changes I made to my diet with above nutritionist. This is all so very close to home for me! Hence reminder of vigilance! So the researching of organic moses baskets, mattresses, muslins, nappies, organic toys v toxic toys is very much on our agenda at the moment!! Toys with lead paint from China makes my heart sink and makes me very angry

princesschick Fri 08-Feb-13 14:33:08

Ok, the toxic tour link didn't work - try this toxic tour

trixymalixy Fri 08-Feb-13 14:36:57

YANBU. I have DC with multiple allergies, so cook mostly from scratch, but when I want to have confidence that the label is accurate

amillionyears Fri 08-Feb-13 14:41:37

Our lives have become international whether we like it or not.

I do sometimes wish, though havent properly thought it all through, that the pirce of oil would go through the roof. That way, everything we buy and do would go back to being local.

OldMacEIEIO Fri 08-Feb-13 14:43:44

Fallen angel. It's not about sourcing, its about labelling. If you label it as beef, you have a duty to make sure it's beef. And now you are bringing race into it as well, sheesh

DizzyZebra Fri 08-Feb-13 15:43:12

Well done, I am so sick of hearing people moan about the 'poor horseys' (They'd be dead whether they were in your burger or not?) when the fact people didn't know in the first place throws up much more serious concerns.

pluCaChange Fri 08-Feb-13 16:48:11

WTF at frozen omelettes! shock

WRT the drug thing DontMind mentioned, have a look here:

The point is that the horses had not been reared for food, so there was no attempt to make it safe, as would have happened even in horses reared for meat

Fallenangle Fri 08-Feb-13 16:57:08

Ice not sure if that is a joke or not. Race as in racehorse. And it is about sourcing cos they didn't deliberately sell horse lasagne as beef lasagne, they thought it was beef because they didn't have a secure supply chain.

Fallenangle Fri 08-Feb-13 16:59:01

Oops not Ice * EIEIO* stupid autocorrect.

NUFC69 Fri 08-Feb-13 17:23:39

I think what shocked me most was the fact that Findus were importing ready prepared food and labelling it - it had never occurred to me that things like that wouldn't have been made in this country. That'll teach me to take things at face value - fortunately I don't buy much ready made food, and I'll be thinking more about it in future.

It is interesting isn't it nuf it could be exactly the same as basics brand at aldi. Marketing is v powerful.

piprabbit Fri 08-Feb-13 17:34:30

If the supermarkets want to sell me horsemeat, fair enough. But at least have the decency to label it as such and not pretend it is 100% beef, so that I can choose whether to eat it.

If you don't know you are selling horsemeat, how can you possibly guarantee it is not contaminated?

In the past, food scares have tended to be all about the the UK supply chain. It turns out that the UK is only a tiny part of the issue.

BegoniaBampot Fri 08-Feb-13 19:53:31

Heard in the news earlier that they think the horse meat came from a criminal element. What the hell could be in our food if criminal gangs are actually at the source, we could be eating anything.

AllYoursBabooshka Fri 08-Feb-13 20:00:18

I found myself squeaking the same thing in outrage at my dad today.

"Yes dad, we know you would try anything that has a mother BUT IT'S NOT ABOUT THE HORSE MEAT"


giveitago Fri 08-Feb-13 20:03:55

But it is also about horse meat. I've been offered and refused because I don't want it. But it's in other stuff.

I think these companies are aware of what they are getting actually.

Ooh begonia good point. Eew, are they testing for human DNA (glad I buy very little processed food. I'll try not to think about my mafia funded salami!)

ConferencePear Fri 08-Feb-13 22:13:29

I anyone thinks it's just about it being horsemeat, tell them that Findus lasagne, cottage pie and moussaka have been taken of the shelves in French supermarkets.

Bogeyface Fri 08-Feb-13 22:17:28

I agree that the issue is about the fact that they are not sure what is in the food, which as you say, can cause serious issues for some. My cousins kids are severely allergic to several things, they could die if something is in their food that shouldnt be. Its not about not wanting to eat horse meat.

However, I did have an argument with my dad about it as he doesnt agree that there is no moral difference between eating horse, and eating cow, or pig, or dog or hamster come to that! I am not a veggie, but I rarely eat meat and I dont think that I can kick up a stink about one animal dying to feed me and not another.

piprabbit Fri 08-Feb-13 22:17:58

I don't know if anyone remembers the awful situation in China a few years ago. Criminals were selling adulterated baby milk, and many babies starved because their milk contained nothing of nutritional value - these were well fed (seemingly), well cared for, loved children.

I thought that something like that could never happen here. Now I am less sure.

mercibucket Fri 08-Feb-13 22:21:01

just thinking of the china baby milk scandal too sad

ivykaty44 Sat 09-Feb-13 11:32:51

there is something in the papers this morning about cat meat - is this correct has anyone else seen about cat meat? I can't re find the article

aamia Sat 09-Feb-13 12:53:06

I'm sure they DID know - or someone along the line did. A nice cost cutting measure there, and I bet those were the horses that are sent to market 'not fit for human consumption' due to the drugs they have received shortly before death. Nice.

So glad we get our meat from the butchers, where they receive half a cow/pig etc, KNOW what it is (and usually from which farm it came from), and cut it up in the shop to be sold!

amillionyears Sat 09-Feb-13 13:00:35

which paper ivykaty44?

I was on a thread where most posters it seems use the same utensils for their pet food as human food. And couldnt see the problem. And said that pet food is fit for human consuption.

That was 1 week before the recent food scandals erupted.

Maryz Sat 09-Feb-13 13:02:25

I think ivykaty means meat from cats, amillion, not food for cats.

I wouldn't have thought there was enough meat on most cats to make a meal. Though apparently guinea pig is a luxury food in some countries.

amillionyears Sat 09-Feb-13 13:06:43

I have been itching to say guinea pig anybody?!

Didnt realise anybody would eat it.

The other horsemeat thread I am currently on, a poster says lots of people are not bothered about horse.

And I think they eat rats in China?

So maybe to some, meat is meat.

[have been wondering what I would knowingly eat tbh]

Think I wouldnt eat guineapig.

Though I guess if you are very hungry, you would eat just about anything that is put in front of you.

LadyIsabellaWrotham Sat 09-Feb-13 13:11:29

YANBU. If I thought that moustache-twirling Findus execs were saying "Ooh, horse meat is cheaper than beef, let's put that in our lasagne, no one will notice" then I'd be cross, but not scared. It's the fact that they didn't know that scares me.

Maryz Sat 09-Feb-13 13:18:33

See, guinea pigs are herbivores, like rabbits, so if you eat rabbit why not guineapig?

I wouldn't eat carnivores, which rules out cats and dogs.

Though pigs are omnivores, aren't they <ponders> and I do like a bacon sarnie confused

amillionyears Sat 09-Feb-13 13:26:56

What bothers me the most, Lady, is what the Food Standards Agency are doing?
Isnt that why they exist? To test our food, or to test the supermarket testers?

I have long since given up believing that we know exactly what is in our food, correct labelling or not correct labelling.
I am well aware that there are unscrupulous people out there putting things in our food that shouldnt be there.

But where are the testers?

amillionyears Sat 09-Feb-13 13:29:30

It was like that with financial scandals.
The people supposedly keeping an eye on things, are, quite frankly, not up to the job.
[in that case, apparantly, the people overlooking the financial industry are not so bright as the finance people, and that is where they end up, if they are not so bright]

amillionyears Sat 09-Feb-13 13:30:22

Maryz grin
Not thought of things in that way before!

amillionyears Sat 09-Feb-13 13:31:47

What about fish Maryz?

I cringe when I feed my goldfish, fishfood.
Seems all wrong.

YADNBU! Was talking to my boss about this yesterday. Will read the thread properly now grin

ivykaty44 Sat 09-Feb-13 22:38:52

not sure how much meat you would get from a cat - but surely it must be as much as a chicken - around 1.5kg would be a sunday dinner and roughly 3ilb of meat for a family of four.

But how much meat you get from one cat isn't the point is it as it would probably be used for things like chicken nuggets or lasagna where they don't use a great deal of meat in any case.

Has mcdonalds been tested to see if there irish beef is really beef as the Irish horse meat burgers were not beef

amillionyears Sat 09-Feb-13 22:43:19

My DH muttered something about McDonalds meat being ok as the source is ok apparently?

mrsbunnylove Sat 09-Feb-13 23:20:36

its not about the horse. for goodness sake, eat the horse.
its about the lies. don't charge me for beef if i'm getting horse. don't tell me its beef when i'm getting horse.
and exactly where are they getting the horse? horse farms? old horses from wherever they go nowadays?

i haven't eaten beef (knowingly) since 1988. i'm just waiting to hear that the chicken i've been feasting on is actually dog.

Heard on the beeb earlier that apparently Romania passed a law a few months ago banning horse and carts from the roads, which caused a massive influx of horses in slaughter houses.

And to me, actually, it is about the horse.

<weeps quietly>

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